IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-10-29

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BCMM_	actually, does anyone know a single difference between the UK and USA version of maemo?	00:00
ruskie	probably wifi firmware	00:00
BCMM_	oh, permitted bands...	00:01
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BCMM_	if i use the wrong region, i'm still not going to get in anyone's way unless someone is operating an AP on the wrong band though, right?	00:01
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Turski	Does someone have usable FM transmitter on PR1.3?	00:01
Turski	or working boost	00:02
BCMM_	heh, as it happens my router can do that band they only use in Japan	00:02
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MohammadAG	Turski, boost was patched in kernel	00:02
MohammadAG	(cc PaulFertser)	00:02
DocScrutinizer	BCMM_: right	00:02
ruskie	MohammadAG, as in not possible any more?	00:02
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MohammadAG	ruskie, reverse kernel patches and compile, then replace module	00:03
MohammadAG	short answer, not on stock	00:03
Turski	damn ;S	00:03
ruskie	fun	00:03
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BCMM_	so what does global permit? all wifi bands, or just wifi bands that are OK everywhere?	00:03
Turski	the transmitter is totally unusable with 1.3	00:03
wmarone	BCMM: most can, they just disable it in software	00:03
DocScrutinizer	long answer: needs kernel module reloading	00:03
ruskie	I guess I'll need to bother rolling my own kernel-sane build or something... will see	00:03
Turski	had to bring N900 just 2cm from the radio antenna to be able to hear something from radio	00:04
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BCMM_	so, short of me accidentally creating an ad-hoc wireless network on a band which interferes with something, can anyone think of a way that using the wrong region could actually be antisocial?	00:04
Turski	it hasn't been that sucky with PR1.2 even without boost	00:04
ruskie	illegal	00:04
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, or replacing, then rebooting	00:05
PaulFertser	Turski: just rmmod and modprobe again the fmtx driver.	00:05
BCMM_	ruskie: i'm not bothered about that, unless it's illegal enough for me to get caught	00:05
Turski	PaulFertser: how would that help? do i need a patched module?	00:05
PaulFertser	Turski: the driver remembers lock only until after a reload.	00:05
Turski	oh :O	00:06
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PaulFertser	Turski: i've no idea who exactly locks it though, but i guess if you start boost right after module reloading, it'll work.	00:06
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Turski	i also complained yesterday about weird 2 seconds freeze on audio when pressing power button, but that has disappeared O_o	00:07
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: replacing is a nice permanent fix. Reloading is just fixing the blown write-once fuse	00:07
MohammadAG	+ * Fixes: NB#155346 - FMTX power level setting & FMTX disabling	00:08
MohammadAG	+ settings to be more robust	00:08
MohammadAG	nice wording	00:08
ruskie	hmm boost works for me	00:09
ruskie	atleast that I can tell	00:09
tybollt	look i didnt ask you that, you're taking it all out of context fuckhead	00:09
ruskie	without it need to basically move it to the antena	00:09
DocScrutinizer	know what? this reminds me of core-wars	00:09
ruskie	tybollt, ???	00:09
tybollt	ehr that was NOT the correct window, sorry	00:09
ruskie	lol	00:09
Turski	ruskie: doesn't work for me	00:09
ruskie	but when I enable boost I can be up to half a meter away or so	00:09
Turski	ruskie: it had awesome range when connected a charger and enabled boost after that :P	00:10
Turski	range of many meters at least	00:10
Turski	(yeah, probably not legal :P )	00:11
DocScrutinizer	fsckit	00:11
DocScrutinizer	whocares	00:11
Turski	but now it just doesn't work	00:11
DocScrutinizer	Turski: see MohammadAG ^^^	00:11
Turski	yeah	00:12
DocScrutinizer	and PaulFertser of course, he found it	00:12
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Turski	need to try that reloading next time	00:12
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* MohammadAG built the 1.2 module against 1.3 headers		00:13
Turski	i'm not really familiar with compiling stuff on/for maemo	00:13
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Turski	MohammadAG: would probably want to share that module if it's working fine?	00:14
DocScrutinizer	BCMM_: don't worry! worries are antisocial	00:14
MohammadAG	http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/public/maemo/PR1.3/fmtx-si4713.ko	00:15
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MohammadAG	have not tested it	00:15
MohammadAG	but I don't see why it shouldn't work	00:15
DocScrutinizer	BCMM_: just listen to Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage	00:15
Turski	MohammadAG: ok, thanks	00:15
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: VERMAGIC correct?	00:16
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, same VERMAGIC, PR1.3 didn't change it	00:16
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MohammadAG	Turski, so, does it work?	00:17
kwtm	Question for all of you: if I am fine with Maemo PR 1.2 on my N900, is it worth upgrading (OTA) to PR 1.3?	00:18
GAN900	kwtm, it's mostly neutral.	00:18
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: so any PR1.2 *.ko should still work? :-o	00:19
kwtm	I see some of you said PR 1.3 but would like various opinions.	00:19
GAN900	I'm not entirely convinced they did anything but make us download 84MBs of packages.	00:19
Turski	MohammadAG: can't test right now	00:19
Turski	MohammadAG: but will try tomorrow	00:19
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, might say invalid module format or something about symbols, different headers	00:19
kwtm	GAN900: I see. Okay, will see how things go first. I'll stay with 1.2. (I recall some people went from 1.1 to 1.2 and some things broke)	00:19
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: then Nokia FAILWALE	00:19
* MohammadAG prefers the term FAILCHERRY		00:20
DocScrutinizer	kwtm: wise. me same	00:20
ruskie	well managed to build a bootable kernel	00:21
DocScrutinizer	>>GIVE NOKIA YOUR CHERRIES!<<	00:21
ruskie	now just need to configure it and rebuild again	00:21
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DocScrutinizer	...and make the new config actually work as expected ;-P	00:22
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andre__	GAN900: Well, the 84MB included some fixes (see Bugzilla query link on http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.3 ) and a few new bugs as usual. You know the game...	00:22
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DocScrutinizer	andre__: yes. A nice new one: SMS disappears	00:22
andre__	DocScrutinizer: yupp. see workaround in 11456	00:23
DocScrutinizer	ooh, there's a workaround?	00:23
DocScrutinizer	bug 11456	00:23
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/11456 History of every conversation (SMS, IM) empty after update to PR1.3	00:23
ruskie	DocScrutinizer, that's what worries me yes... work as expected... but then I don't have much... I want a fb console, pptp support, iptables, possibly some other things...	00:23
andre__	it's actually not even a new bug. has happened before, but now more people run into it. weird.	00:23
ruskie	anyway sleep	00:23
DocScrutinizer	heh! andre__ : >>Please don't close as FIXED when there's no software fix involved...<< :->	00:24
DocScrutinizer	andre__: is WONTFIX appropriate then? ;-P	00:25
andre__	WONTFIX is appropriate when Nokia says that it's a WONTFIX. so far they have not said to me.	00:25
DocScrutinizer	:-D	00:25
GAN900	andre__, boy do I ever.	00:25
andre__	however their usual silence on some reports sucks even more	00:25
GAN900	Welcome to 2006.	00:25
DocScrutinizer	a quite unexpected statement of you anyway	00:25
andre__	DocScrutinizer, hmm? what exactly?	00:26
DocScrutinizer	the "Don't close..."	00:26
andre__	well. it's simply not FIXED just because there is a workaround. it's fixed when it does not happen anymore.	00:26
DocScrutinizer	nothing wrong with it, just was puzzled and read it 3 times	00:26
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DocScrutinizer	WTF!!	00:26
DocScrutinizer	netsplit-day	00:27
andre__	GAN900, hmm?	00:27
MohammadAG	Nokia-N900:/sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0063# echo 118 > power_level	00:27
MohammadAG	Nokia-N900:/sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0063# cat power_level	00:27
MohammadAG	118	00:27
MohammadAG	muhahaha	00:27
DocScrutinizer	hehe	00:27
DocScrutinizer	thumbs up, MohammadAG	00:27
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MohammadAG	Nokia-N900:/sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0063# cat power_level	00:27
MohammadAG	120	00:27
MohammadAG	even better	00:27
renato	MohammadAG51, ping	00:27
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MohammadAG	pong	00:28
DocScrutinizer	renato: he's here	00:28
DocScrutinizer	PaulFertser: kudos for spotting this madness (fmtx)	00:28
renato	MohammadAG, I saw your application VertSMS, btw is a great app	00:29
PaulFertser	MohammadAG: without compiling anything: http://paste.debian.net/98526/	00:29
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DocScrutinizer	PaulFertser: ??	00:29
renato	MohammadAG, but looking in the code I saw you are using QString from PyQt4	00:29
DocScrutinizer	copy of pr1.2 *.ko?	00:29
PaulFertser	DocScrutinizer: it's not me spotting, i just looked at the code after someone hinted it might do that.	00:30
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PaulFertser	DocScrutinizer: no, plain stock module, just reloaded.	00:30
renato	do you have any special reason for use that? why not use only PySide?	00:30
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MohammadAG	renato, read the description :)	00:30
MohammadAG	ossipenna's the dev, I'm the maintainer	00:31
DocScrutinizer	PaulFertser: I see	00:31
PaulFertser	Probably need "echo fuck > lock" after that to make the stock firmware unable to downplay the power level back :)	00:31
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renato	MohammadAG, ok sorry, I will ask him later, thanks	00:32
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MohammadAG	#define DEFAULT_POWER_LEVEL88 <-- is this ignored by FMTXD?	00:33
DocScrutinizer	PaulFertser: wtf is that "0" and crap printing to terminat on a CAT	00:33
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DocScrutinizer	err, nevermind	00:33
* DocScrutinizer hopes for coffe to kick in finally		00:34
kerio	the DEFAULT_POWER_LEVEL...	00:34
kerio	IT'S OVER 80!!!	00:34
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DocScrutinizer	PaulFertser: still there's some weird differences between your first and your 2nd try	00:34
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PaulFertser	DocScrutinizer: first try is after a regular boot. I guess some app in the process first sets power level to 118, then locks it.	00:35
DocScrutinizer	1 118 118 vs 0 0 120	00:36
DocScrutinizer	any hint about semantics of that?	00:36
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DocScrutinizer	on/off, actual, limit?	00:37
MohammadAG	hmm	00:37
PaulFertser	DocScrutinizer: lock, power_level before trying to change, power_level after trying to change.	00:37
MohammadAG	how do I force module unloading	00:37
DocScrutinizer	or locked instead of on/off?	00:37
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DocScrutinizer	hah!	00:37
DocScrutinizer	modprobe -r	00:38
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: ^^^	00:38
MohammadAG	it's in use	00:38
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MohammadAG	nevermind, it got freed up	00:38
DocScrutinizer	rhen unload the modules that use it, and close the apps that open it	00:38
DrWilken	modprobe -rf	00:38
DocScrutinizer	usually doesn't work afaik	00:38
DocScrutinizer	just like umount -f	00:39
MohammadAG	umount -l*	00:39
DrWilken	didn't know that one ;)	00:40
DocScrutinizer	for modprobe there's not even a -f mentioned in --help	00:40
DrWilken	"Lazy unmount"	00:40
BugBlue	rmmod -f / insmod -f	00:40
DrWilken	DocS: there is on ubuntu	00:40
DrWilken	man page	00:41
DocScrutinizer	DrWilken: but -f is just to ignore modversion and vermagic	00:42
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DrWilken	aaah so it probably won't work when unloading anyway	00:43
DocScrutinizer	modprobe [ -r ] [ -v ] [ -n ] [ -i ] [ modulename ... ]	00:43
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DocScrutinizer	BugBlue: hmm, though modprobe is supposed to be the replacement for rmmod, it seems rmmod has some nice features unsupported by modprobe	00:48
DrWilken	rmmod -f?	00:49
DrWilken	just googled it too :D	00:49
DocScrutinizer	BugBlue: thanks for that	00:49
BugBlue	hth - hand gone for now	00:49
DrWilken	http://mandrivausers.org/index.php?/topic/8736-is-there-a-way-to-safely-force-a-module-to-unload/	00:49
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nomis	... to safely force ...	00:50
DrWilken	-f (or --force) forces a module unload, and may crash your machine. This requires the Forced Module Removal option when the kernel was compiled.	00:50
nomis	"I really want you to unload. But in a safe manner, so don't break anything..."	00:50
DrWilken	... pretty please	00:51
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DocScrutinizer	nomis: exactly my thoughts :-D	00:53
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D-man	Guys, which rc.d folder is proper one to put in macchanger command?	01:18
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MohammadAG	X-Fade, ping	01:22
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alterego	pang	01:23
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ieatlint	syn	01:25
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Termana	morning	01:29
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KaffeeJunky123	Termana: it isn't morning everywhere on this planet	01:30
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djszapi	should my phone work with no mmc image flashing ?	01:31
djszapi	just the fiasco.	01:31
MohammadAG	yes	01:31
KaffeeJunky123	doesn't the new eMMc image fix some gps issues?	01:33
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Termana	KaffeeJunky123, you are obviously unfamiliar with proper IRC etiquette. It is always good morning when you enter and always good night when you leave	01:35
MohammadAG	why would the eMMC be related to the GPS...	01:35
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KaffeeJunky123	Termana: that's a rather strange etiquette	01:36
KaffeeJunky123	Termana: and probably nothing general	01:36
MohammadAG	we are strange people ;)	01:37
KaffeeJunky123	aka strangers	01:37
ieatlint	i resent being called strange	01:38
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pupnik	anybody want to tell me what i'm doing crappily here?	01:39
pupnik	http://i.imgur.com/uCmD9.png	01:39
KaffeeJunky123	pupnik: what's that supposed to be =)?	01:39
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pupnik	playing with low-cost pixel-effects KaffeeJunky123	01:40
pupnik	http://pastebin.com/ar3bJH4C	01:40
SpeedEvil	What's it supposed to do?	01:41
pupnik	for e.g. how do i subtract a number from an int	01:41
KaffeeJunky123	I see pixels	01:41
KaffeeJunky123	o_O	01:41
pupnik	and not allow the value to ebcome negative	01:41
pupnik	without an if-then	01:41
KaffeeJunky123	unsigned integer?	01:41
SpeedEvil	pupnik: unsigned int	01:41
pupnik	if(src[i+odest4]<3) dst[i+o4]=0; else dst[i+o4]=src[i+odest4]-3	01:41
SpeedEvil	The conditional operator can also be useful.	01:41
KaffeeJunky123	it's C run for your lives!	01:42
pupnik	is there something i can mask the negative number with to make it zero iff negative?	01:42
SpeedEvil	yes	01:42
KaffeeJunky123	also horrible coding style	01:42
pupnik	does that assume dangerous stuff about how signed ints are represented?	01:42
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KaffeeJunky123	pupnik: I'd have to look up that one in the standard, but I only have one for C++	01:43
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ieatlint	uh, an unsigned integer will prevent negative numbers, but that doesn't prevent negative operations on it	01:44
KaffeeJunky123	pupnik: but my crappy book claims it's implementation defined	01:44
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pupnik	unsigned int foo,bar=3; bar=foo-2*foo; printf("%i",bar); ==> ?	01:47
Turski	pupnik: how about if(x<y) a = y - x; else a= 0;	01:47
ieatlint	pupnik: foo is undefined	01:47
pupnik	foo=bar=3	01:47
ieatlint	well, that doesn't assign 3 to foo	01:48
KaffeeJunky123	it does assign an unassigned value to foo	01:48
ieatlint	but if foo is 3, then bar is -3	01:48
KaffeeJunky123	fail is fail	01:48
KaffeeJunky123	ieatlint: C does calculate from left to right iirc	01:48
ieatlint	KaffeeJunky123: no	01:49
ieatlint	order of operations	01:49
ieatlint	* is higher than -	01:49
Turski	ieatlint: that's not true...	01:49
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ieatlint	Turski: try it	01:50
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ieatlint	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operators_in_C_and_C%2B%2B#Operator_precedence for the full chart	01:51
ieatlint	on that chart, multiplication is #5, and subtraction is 6	01:52
kerio	foo=bar=3 assigns (bar=3) to foo	01:52
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kerio	in the evaluation of (bar=3), assigns 3 to bar, and the result of the evaluation is 3	01:53
ieatlint	ok, that seems dirty to me, but i stand by my initial comment that foo was undefined when i said it :P	01:53
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kerio	no, foo was possibly undefined	01:56
kerio	it's now very well defined	01:56
Turski	ieatlint: ok, remembered wrong then :(	01:56
kerio	foo is 3	01:56
ieatlint	no worries... i was beaten with a stick over the order of operations	01:56
Turski	actually i have never even used C in pc programming	01:57
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ieatlint	kerio: yes, i was wrong there :)	01:57
Turski	(had to google what was the include for printf -_- )	01:57
kerio	C is... bad	01:57
Turski	i use C only for AVR and python on PC	01:57
kerio	bad, bad, bad	01:57
kerio	reeeeeeeeeeeally bad	01:57
Turski	kerio: not probably that bad...	01:58
kerio	reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad	01:58
Turski	...	01:58
ieatlint	kerio: :P	01:58
ieatlint	java fan?	01:58
ieatlint	because most people with a vendetta against c seem to be	01:58
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Turski	java is much more bad	01:59
kerio	hahaha java	01:59
kerio	are you kidding	01:59
kerio	the flexibility of compiled languages with the speed of interpreted languages	01:59
kerio	all in a generic VM	01:59
Turski	:D	01:59
ShadowJK	and the bloat of openoffice and mozilla, combined	01:59
Shapeshifter	java ain't that bad	01:59
Shapeshifter	for certain purposes	01:59
KaffeeJunky123	depends	02:00
KaffeeJunky123	ShadowJK: Depends on the implementation as well	02:00
ieatlint	woo... programming language fight	02:00
KaffeeJunky123	Java doesn't mean its java	02:00
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kerio	python obviously wins	02:00
nomis	in fact c++ is the worst of the all. (to chime in)	02:00
SpeedEvil	piet	02:00
kerio	πet	02:00
Shapeshifter	SpeedEvil: aww	02:00
KaffeeJunky123	if you're just refering to the programming language with a vm, then it's fine	02:00
KaffeeJunky123	but the framework...	02:00
kerio	KaffeeJunky123: a fan of clojure?	02:00
kerio	python/ruby/haskell > else	02:00
FauxFaux	Or Scalaaa.	02:00
Shapeshifter	KaffeeJunky123: I mean the language. So many of the java libs are horrible ._.	02:01
KaffeeJunky123	kerio: C++	02:01
kerio	oh please	02:01
Shapeshifter	actually, I revert my opinion. Java really is that bad	02:01
kerio	unless you're a masochist, ofc	02:01
KaffeeJunky123	was about to come up with that	02:01
Shapeshifter	C++ is broken	02:01
ieatlint	kerio: i prefer c :)	02:01
KaffeeJunky123	already typed it in but then I thought, that would probably sound mad	02:01
KaffeeJunky123	but now I might as well do it	02:01
ieatlint	and it's less that i'm a masochist, and more that i'm just that fucking pedantic	02:02
KaffeeJunky123	I'm a masochist	02:02
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internetishard	anyone use a bluetooth keyboard here? Why are they so expensive?	02:02
* nomis vaguely points to http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/		02:02
KaffeeJunky123	and I'll recurse the templates until the compiler breaks	02:02
Shapeshifter	nomis: I was just looking up that	02:03
SpeedEvil	internetishard: they aren't.	02:03
tripzero	inteallahonsen, law of supply and demand	02:03
nomis	Oracle of course now is in the process of killing Java completely.	02:03
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tripzero	and iirc, they aren't any more expensive than RF keyboards	02:03
tripzero	nomis, don's spread FUD	02:03
KaffeeJunky123	guess who	02:04
tripzero	don't*	02:04
KaffeeJunky123	I give you a small hint	02:04
internetishard	http://www.google.com/search?q=Nokia+SU-8W+bluetooth+keyboard&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=Nokia+SU-8W+bluetooth+keyboard+&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=ebd6de782e46911a	02:04
kerio	internetishard: i have a stowaway/iGo ultraslim bt kbd	02:04
KaffeeJunky123	Steve	02:04
ieatlint	i'm sure oracle bought sun so they could just kill off java, solaris and mysql... makes sense to me	02:04
nomis	tripzero: they are on a very good way towards that. Although they might not intend that actually.	02:04
internetishard	Nokia SU-8W bluetooth keyboard is the one I was checking out I gues	02:04
KaffeeJunky123	B*****	02:04
kerio	currently unused, but always handy when i'm using my laptop as a htpc	02:04
kerio	just looking at it unfold makes me happy :3	02:04
kerio	i didn't pay it that much	02:05
SpeedEvil	internetishard: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.37154	02:05
Shapeshifter	SpeedEvil: that looks awful to type on	02:05
internetishard	That think looks terrible	02:05
internetishard	lol ^^yes	02:05
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SpeedEvil	http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.27685	02:06
KaffeeJunky123	the heck	02:06
SpeedEvil	http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.45604	02:07
internetishard	kerio, how is the iGo?	02:07
kerio	internetishard: not that bad to type on	02:07
kerio	and small	02:07
SpeedEvil	DX has lots of random stuff.	02:07
internetishard	mad expensive	02:07
kerio	if you're expecting a model M, you're looking at the wrong product	02:08
internetishard	yeah yeah	02:08
internetishard	I just want something that is light and folding and keys spaced similar to regular - and under $40	02:08
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SpeedEvil	And I want a supermodel to cook me breakfast.	02:08
Shapeshifter	under $40	02:09
internetishard	hahah, these demands do not seem equally far-fetched	02:09
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SpeedEvil	I would be very, very surprised if you could get a working, reliable bluetooth folding keyboard at under $80	02:09
ieatlint	SpeedEvil: with a bit of money, that's very possible	02:09
internetishard	indeed, but like $2000	02:09
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internetishard	might as well spend $2000 on one of those "pickup" bootcamps, and learn how to attract women you like... than you get that shit for free as much as you want	02:10
SpeedEvil	But I can dig a cellar for lots less than that, and chloroform is not expensive.	02:10
tripzero	i want a supermodel to cook me breakfast and buy me cool bluetooth keybaords	02:11
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internetishard	hahahah^	02:11
ieatlint	SpeedEvil: cellars are pretty expensive actually	02:11
internetishard	I wonder if the bluetooth ipad keyboard would work....	02:11
internetishard	I could probably find one of those cheap	02:12
tripzero	should...	02:12
SpeedEvil	Actually	02:12
SpeedEvil	http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.41964	02:12
SpeedEvil	Foldable - tick - bluetooth - tick - keyboard - tick - under $40 - tick	02:13
internetishard	Tack!	02:13
internetishard	(tick)	02:13
SpeedEvil	Actually - cheaper!	02:14
SpeedEvil	http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.41942	02:14
internetishard	wonder if it is easy to type on these silicon keyboards at all	02:14
internetishard	CUT!	02:14
ieatlint	is dealextreme.com the store that sells those illegal laser pointers that can set things on fire?	02:14
ShadowJK	illegal in some countries	02:15
ieatlint	true	02:15
Shapeshifter	huh	02:15
Shapeshifter	I want one	02:15
internetishard	lol, play nice kids	02:15
SpeedEvil	http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.19531 - for small values of on fire.	02:15
ShadowJK	"Massive" 10-meter range	02:15
* alterego yawns		02:16
Shapeshifter	lol	02:16
Termana_	WHAT THE FUCK	02:16
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ShadowJK	You can also get gps jammers, cellphone jammers, spy cameras, tools for picking locks, gunmount laser and scope, and other random gear one migght need for personal warfare	02:17
Termana	Now I've seen it all. A web store selling lazers that can set stuff on fire	02:17
Termana	lasers*	02:17
SpeedEvil	Though I have a 50mW unitr coming from them to upgrade my laser-level from a 1mW red barely visible to easily visible plane.	02:17
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SpeedEvil	They also do n900 knockoffs.	02:17
SpeedEvil	Oh - also.	02:17
ieatlint	the spy cameras and lock picks are the only legal ones here i think, hehe	02:17
Termana	Probably illegal to import into Australia. You would get done for importing weaponry.	02:18
SpeedEvil	A bluetooth ODBII adaptor.	02:18
SpeedEvil	For connecting my n900 to my car	02:18
ieatlint	yeah, the bt OBDII adapter is awesome	02:18
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Termana	So, who wants to help start integrating that laser into the N900?	02:18
Termana	:p	02:18
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ShadowJK	termana: they also have tripple flame butane jet torch	02:19
KaffeeJunky123	no one	02:19
SpeedEvil	http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42825	02:19
SpeedEvil	- BT car dongle.	02:19
ieatlint	haha, that page for the laser claims that US citizens are forbidden from purchasing it even outside of the US	02:19
ieatlint	somehow i doubt that's enforceable	02:20
ShadowJK	flip the lid and you get not one, but 3 flames each hot enough to melt copper. sets your tobacco on fire for sure	02:20
SpeedEvil	ieatlint: Well - the US government in general believes strongly in extraterratoriality.	02:20
SpeedEvil	In that all citezens of the US are bound by most US laws, even overseas.	02:20
ieatlint	SpeedEvil: indeed...	02:20
SpeedEvil	And sometimes, non-US	02:21
Termana	SpeedEvil, a lot of countries have laws about overseas child exploitation	02:21
Termana	But not fire lasers	02:21
Termana	:p	02:21
pupnik	nicer version of the shader http://i.imgur.com/DdXh1.png	02:22
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ShadowJK	I wonder if amazon.com still sells Uranium	02:22
KaffeeJunky123	nope	02:22
ShadowJK	aw	02:22
ieatlint	the US laws on "child exploitation" are so crazy, that if you go from one state with an age of consent at 16 to another state with an age of consent at 16 to have sex, you're committing child trafficking -- even if you're both the same age	02:23
KaffeeJunky123	they switched to plutonium already	02:23
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ieatlint	but i want a laser to set fire to planes damnit	02:23
ShadowJK	I guess that just shows that their radiation meters suck bad now if they're selling plutonium to test them with	02:24
* SpeedEvil has a radioactive vial next to his genitals.		02:24
SpeedEvil	http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6830	02:24
SpeedEvil	(well - similar to)	02:24
* ShadowJK guesses tritium before clicking		02:24
SpeedEvil	yes.	02:25
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ieatlint	yeah, so dangerous that the plastic casing shields the radiation	02:25
ShadowJK	Amazon still has Uranium :)	02:25
ShadowJK	"Radioactive minerals are for educational and scientific use only."	02:26
ShadowJK	mandatory disclaimer :)	02:26
ieatlint	just go buy a pallet of smoke detectors	02:26
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ieatlint	they have more radioactive materials	02:27
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ShadowJK	Amazon helpfully also suggests I might want to buy: "The Making of the Atomic Bomb"	02:27
KaffeeJunky123	and dictators for dummys?	02:28
ShadowJK	"Complete idiot's guide for dummies", almost	02:29
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ShadowJK	"How to Rule the World: A Handbook for the Aspiring Dictator"	02:30
ShadowJK	excellent	02:30
ShadowJK	no idea whatsoever where to get the sharks from though	02:31
ShadowJK	(for the lasers)	02:31
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ieatlint	we've got them off the coast here	02:33
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MohammadAG	Community SSU ready, just need to test it more	02:43
DocScrutinizer51	150mW is poor anyway, but I paid a 10th	02:44
DocScrutinizer51	nevertheless want that 500mW	02:44
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* DocScrutinizer51 scares pub ith 150mW green spot at ceiling		02:45
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ieatlint	yes, we all want the 500mW laser :P	02:46
Shapeshifter	huh	02:46
Shapeshifter	dug up my scratchbox, wanted to do apt-get update: E: The method driver /scratchbox/devkits/debian-etch/lib/apt/methods/https could not be found.	02:47
Shapeshifter	oh i give up. I know nothing about anything -.-	02:48
MohammadAG	ignore it	02:48
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DocScrutinizer51	hooray hildon-thumbnailer eating my cpu and battery	03:21
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DocScrutinizer51	was keen enough to shoot ONE photo :-/	03:22
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DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: I got 2, might consider pimping up one of them	03:35
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DocScrutinizer	(150mW)	03:36
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DocScrutinizer	damn, Mentalist Traceur - what a cool nick	03:41
DocScrutinizer	fine for tmo, not IRC compatible	03:42
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* sivang just arrived to find privmsgs in backlog from long ago :/		03:53
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KaffeeJunky123	that's why I don't keep any logs	03:58
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internetishard	Do any of you use iptables in maemo?	04:12
internetishard	Also, why is fennec so so to start loading (opera isn't)?	04:12
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sivang	Jaffa: The idea first came into existence when I saw some ideas for talks, one of them was "building a healthy community" and it evolved a bit to building a health community and project given community is involved.	04:28
nox-	internetishard, i may be wrong but istr iptables need power kernel, which there isnt yet for pr1.3	04:30
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djszapi	'Hardware problem with MMC:' -> Failed to mount /home/user/MyDocs partition	05:29
djszapi	and my device keeps rebooting after pressing the green tick in a loop, kinda useless device now.	05:30
djszapi	what can I do ?	05:30
SpeedEvil	~flashing	05:30
infobot	i heard flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	05:30
SpeedEvil	But it is also possible that you have a hardware problem with the mmc	05:31
SpeedEvil	which means you need to return it	05:31
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djszapi	I doubt that.	05:32
djszapi	since with other images it just works.	05:32
SpeedEvil	Well - you never said that	05:33
djszapi	and this problem occured after flashing in image..	05:33
djszapi	I have not flashed any MMC image since that is not available for my device.	05:33
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djszapi	any idea ?	05:39
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DocScrutinizer	~flashing	05:39
infobot	hmm... flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	05:39
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djszapi	mmh, I am not sure you know I would not like to use maemo5	05:40
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DocScrutinizer	sorry, I seem too tired to follow your thoughts	05:40
djszapi	seems so	05:41
raster	DocScrutinizer: dooooooooooooook	05:41
DocScrutinizer	rastermaaan	05:41
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DocScrutinizer	howdy	05:41
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raster	DocScrutinizer: how goes it over in .de?	05:43
DocScrutinizer	too cold	05:43
DocScrutinizer	and that's just starting	05:44
raster	hmm	05:44
raster	ugh	05:44
raster	brb	05:44
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DocScrutinizer	hooray, some smart dude found a harmattan img to flash on his device, "months ago"	05:45
DocScrutinizer	doesn't that imply he's one of the cracks at Nokia developing that harmattan thing? So why does he ask me about errrr. yeah about what?	05:47
DocScrutinizer	meh, night peeps	05:47
djszapi	any idea ?	05:48
DocScrutinizer	about broken MMC drivers in harmattan? I doubt anybody does	05:49
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djszapi	yeah, you know everybody :)	05:50
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djszapi	just because you do not have the faintest idea :)	05:50
DocScrutinizer	I know ONE thing, I don't know you	05:50
raster	thaaaaaaaaats better	05:51
raster	btrfs	05:51
djszapi	you can answer on the internal channel as well ofc...	05:51
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raster	god damned... unicode needs 23bits these days	05:53
raster	thats nuts	05:53
raster	ooh look	05:53
raster	they added the japanese keitai mail emoticons to it	05:54
DocScrutinizer	lol	05:54
raster	1F308;RAINBOW;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	05:54
raster	1F339;ROSE;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	05:54
raster	...	05:54
raster	1F3E3;JAPANESE POST OFFICE;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	05:54
raster	i recognise those emoticons	05:55
nox-	haha	05:55
* DocScrutinizer ponders about sushi		05:55
raster	1F458;KIMONO;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	05:55
raster	will that do?	05:55
raster	or to distract you	05:55
raster	1F459;BIKINI;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	05:56
raster	1F45A;WOMANS CLOTHES;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	05:56
* DocScrutinizer also feels temped to /kick, still :-/		05:56
raster	aaah there it is!	05:57
raster	i knew it'd be there	05:57
raster	here u do DocScrutinizer ...	05:57
raster	1F363;SUSHI;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	05:57
raster	some sushi for you	05:57
raster	:)	05:57
ds3	is raster encoding everything as a .HEX file? ;)	05:58
raster	no	05:58
raster	it's just entires from the unicode standard	05:58
raster	http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt	05:58
ds3	S16?	05:58
ds3	:D	05:58
DocScrutinizer	how dull can you be, to go foggy like ""<djszapi> mmh, I am not sure you know I would not like to use maemo5"" ""<djszapi> any idea ?"" ""<djszapi> just because you do not have the faintest idea :)""	05:58
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DocScrutinizer	and then spam me in a query and tell about harmattan waiting since months to get flashed to his device	06:01
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DocScrutinizer	SIGH	06:02
* raster hands DocScrutinizer a cookie		06:02
raster	cheer up. unicdeo has cookies	06:03
raster	1F36A;COOKIE;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	06:03
raster	ooh	06:03
raster	and doughnuts	06:03
raster	1F369;DOUGHNUT;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;	06:03
raster	:)	06:03
raster	it's got candy too	06:04
DocScrutinizer	raster image was yesterday, now we get unicode image :-D	06:04
raster	hehehe	06:04
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DocScrutinizer	RGB raster image has problems with turquoise, Unicode image has problems with large hotdogs	06:07
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raster	hahaha	06:09
DocScrutinizer	o/ zzzZZZzzz	06:09
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DocScrutinizer	please can somebody with a PR1.3 with stock kernel run powertop, on a device hooked up to walcharger and screen locked	07:15
DocScrutinizer	and post the corresponding values to those of a stock PR1.2 here:	07:16
DocScrutinizer	C0 \| 25.4% \| \| 600 MHz \| 39.2% \|	07:16
DocScrutinizer	C1 \| 0.2% \| 0.1ms \| 550 MHz \| 4.2% \|	07:16
DocScrutinizer	C2 \| 4.9% \| 6.5ms \| 500 MHz \| 1.3% \|	07:16
DocScrutinizer	C3 \| 37.1% \| 146.7ms \| 250 MHz \| 55.2% \|	07:16
DocScrutinizer	C4 \| 32.4% \| 607.5ms \|	07:16
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DocScrutinizer	(above values from a PR1.2 with xchat and a xterm active, powertop via ssh+WLAN)	07:20
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nox-	DocScrutinizer, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/282963/	07:25
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DocScrutinizer	nox-: :-) thnx	07:25
nox-	is the segfault to be expected?	07:26
DocScrutinizer	no, LOL at segfault	07:26
nox-	hehe	07:26
* nox- only just installed it		07:26
Termana	nox-, you're suppose to run it as root	07:27
nox-	oh	07:27
DocScrutinizer	I'm getting similar insane values here, with a tweaked PR1.3 hostmode kernel (esp 100% @ 500MHz)	07:27
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DocScrutinizer	only while on charger	07:28
DocScrutinizer	C1 \| 98.8% \| 262.7ms \| 550 MHz \| 0.0% \|	07:28
DocScrutinizer	C2 \| 0.0% \| 0.1ms \| 500 MHz \| 100.0% \|	07:29
Termana	DocScrutinizer, what is the last Ratio column about? The first one is obvious, but the last one doesn't seem to fit in with any of the values at all	07:29
DocScrutinizer	where?	07:30
DocScrutinizer	aah, it's % of cpu@<freq>	07:30
DocScrutinizer	of the active (c0..c3?) state	07:30
DocScrutinizer	basically aiui cols 1..3 are unrelated to col4,5	07:31
Termana	Oh I see now, thanks. I'd wondered for quite some time what it was about	07:31
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nox-	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/282965/	07:32
DocScrutinizer	yeah, twisted	07:32
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DocScrutinizer	nox-: this was with screen black?	07:33
nox-	no	07:33
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DocScrutinizer	I can tell from powertop	07:33
DocScrutinizer	too much gfx	07:33
nox-	ah hm	07:34
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ebzzry	Hi! Is curl available, in any form, in Fremantle?	07:35
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DocScrutinizer	compare yours to a PR1.2 system, on wallcharger, with nothing but ssh session running, locked screen: http://pastebin.com/aYbMRGcQ	07:40
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nox-	next try with a sleep 40 in front: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/282967/	07:41
nox-	wow	07:41
DocScrutinizer	the most annoying thing is it spins cpu for nothing, and thus burns quite large amounts of power	07:41
nox-	indeed	07:41
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Termana	DocScrutinizer, well isn't that a side effect of having userspace charging (BME)	07:42
DocScrutinizer	which in turn causes charging of battery never trips the charge end current threshold	07:42
ieatlint	ebzzry: i believe libcurl is a stock library, and curl i think is in the repos	07:42
ieatlint	extras or extras-devel	07:42
DocScrutinizer	Termana: PR1.2 also has "userspace charging"	07:42
ebzzry	ieatlint: OK	07:43
Termana	DocScrutinizer, was yours PR 1.2 or 1.3?	07:43
nox-	oh well mine still got the green leds	07:43
DocScrutinizer	[2010-10-29 06:40:24] <DocScrutinizer> compare yours to a PR1.2 system, on wallcharger, with nothing but ssh session running, locked screen: http://pastebin.com/aYbMRGcQ	07:43
nox-	so it did know (or think?) when it was fully charged	07:43
Termana	Oh righto.	07:43
DocScrutinizer	nox-: LED goes green, but it never stops pulling current from charger	07:44
nox-	ah	07:44
DocScrutinizer	and so keeps battery floating at max voltage, which is killing batteries	07:45
nox-	eww	07:45
nox-	`na da hamse uns ja n ei ins nest gelegt...' :P	07:45
DocScrutinizer	also cpu spinning void @ 500MHz which doesn't exactly meet Nokias own recommendations	07:45
Termana	DocScrutinizer, so, good time for jrbme then? :p	07:45
DocScrutinizer	nox-: yep	07:46
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* nox- unplugs charger		07:46
nox-	and i was just getting used to simply letting it plugged on charger overnight... :(	07:47
Termana	nox-, you can always.... downgrade! DUN DA DAAAA	07:47
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Termana	:p	07:47
DocScrutinizer	I'm doing this all the time, but then I don't care much about LiIon deteriorating, I just buy a new one when I found out how fast it will age	07:48
DocScrutinizer	but CPU aging @ 500MHz isn't exactly irrelevant to me	07:48
nox-	yeah at least this isnt apple where you cant easily change batteries...	07:49
flux	does anyone know why it ups the MHz when USB is connected?	07:49
flux	(whatever the reason must be, I doubt they are releavent when charging only?)	07:49
DocScrutinizer	nope	07:49
DocScrutinizer	also it seems doesn't happen like that on PR1.2	07:50
DocScrutinizer	aah, and the "PR1.3" values I got here are - as mentioned above - on a hostmode kernel based on PR1.3, but rootfs still is pr1.1.1 (yes!)	07:51
nox-	ah well i at least did a `normal' upgrade	07:51
DocScrutinizer	so this is clearly a kernel thing, not caused by rootfs system components, like e.g bme	07:52
nox-	(after manually upgrading perl that it didnt like)	07:52
DocScrutinizer	nox-: my figures on 1.3 kernel are same as yours	07:52
nox-	ok	07:52
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nox-	without charger: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/282974/	07:57
DocScrutinizer	same as before, but with title, so nobody gets confused :-) http://pastebin.com/QSHS6u3g	08:06
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Termana	Ha. Ha.	08:07
Termana	It was so funny you made nox- quit	08:07
Termana	:p	08:07
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ebzzry	ieatlint: Do you have it confirmed that 'curl' exists on extras-devel?	08:13
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ieatlint	uh, no, i'd need to look it up	08:15
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ebzzry	ieatlint: OK	08:17
ebzzry	I don't think it is present in any of the extras- repos. Has anyone written a working binary of curl for Fremantle?	08:19
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ieatlint	looks like you may be right... thought it was, but appears to be just libcurl	08:19
ebzzry	It is also listed at http://curl.haxx.se/download.html that curl only exists in Maemo 5 as a library, and not a binary.	08:19
ieatlint	there should be no reason someone can't compile curl for arm...	08:20
ebzzry	ieatlint: that's a bold statement	08:21
ieatlint	no, i'm just using the standard geek definition of "should work" which differs from "will work"	08:21
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ieatlint	giving it a quick try right now	08:22
ruskie	ebzzry, I have it in my own repo	08:24
ruskie	http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Repositories#ruskie	08:24
ebzzry	ruskie: Where is your repo?	08:24
* Jucato bumps ruskie		08:24
ebzzry	ruskie: Going	08:24
Jucato	>:)	08:24
ruskie	:)	08:24
ieatlint	there you go, simpler even :)	08:25
ieatlint	and it did compile without issue in scratchbox	08:25
Jenna	Hiyall. I flashed my N900 with the PR 1.3 firware (global). I flashed it without restarting or pressing "U" . But nevertheless the firmware got updated. (Shows in the about box in the settings). Anyway my question is should I re-flash it or I dont need to. ?	08:25
ruskie	ieatlint, exactly what my package is ;) just a compile in the scratchbox ;)	08:26
ieatlint	cool	08:27
ebzzry	ruskie: Thanks. I'll test it as soon as I get back from the meeting	08:27
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Jenna	u guyz ? n900 no /	08:30
Jenna	?	08:30
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ruskie	if it works don't see any reason why reflash	08:30
ruskie	did you reboot it yet?	08:30
ebzzry	ruskie: BTW, what should I put under "Distribution" and "Components"? Where should I put "opt"?	08:31
ruskie	lemme check	08:31
ruskie	components is blank	08:32
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ruskie	opt/ goes under distribution	08:32
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ebzzry	ruskie: FAM doesn't like it that way.	08:32
ruskie	https://repo.codemages.net/ and opt/	08:33
ruskie	note the https://	08:33
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ebzzry	ruskie: URL: https://repo.codemages.net, Distribution: opt, Components: <blank>	08:33
ruskie	opt/	08:33
ruskie	not opt	08:33
Jenna	ruskie, yeah. I did reboot it & installed lots of software as well. It works. fine. but I did expereinced once bloated graphics when I minimize/maximize the running application. only once.	08:33
ebzzry	ruskie: Gah. That tripped me.	08:33
ruskie	Jenna, sounds like no issue then	08:34
slonopotamus	slonopotamus_: leave me alone	08:34
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RobbieThe1st	hi all	08:35
Jenna	ruskie, was just concerned since the official documentation at maemo.org said "You ought to reboot the device & press "U" thats all. Dont know why would they say something like that. If it works the other way as well.	08:35
ruskie	Jenna, because sometime it doesn't	08:35
Jenna	hey RobbieThe1st	08:35
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ruskie	Jenna, specifically U forces it to some specific mode	08:35
Jenna	ruskie, okay. I guess no harm done.	08:35
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Jenna	ruskie, IC. Btw I didn't flashed eMMC thing. whatever that is. Is it okay. ?	08:36
RobbieThe1st	...Y'know, I'm still not sure why they have that in the documentation: I find it easier and better to set the Flasher to "waiting", then reboot the device. It'll automaticly start and flash easily	08:36
RobbieThe1st	Yea	08:36
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RobbieThe1st	eMMC flashing is (more or less) optional.	08:36
ruskie	RobbieThe1st, I had to atleast once or twice use the U trick	08:37
ruskie	Jenna, emmc is your data on the device ;)	08:37
RobbieThe1st	Really? why?	08:37
ruskie	because flasher didn't pick it up otherwise	08:37
ruskie	it can happen	08:37
Jenna	ruskie, I had the data all backed up. Would I gain anything positive in flashing eMMC thing ?	08:38
RobbieThe1st	emmc wise, not quite: Its two things: 1, your MyDocs folder/partition, and 2, your /home/ and /opt/ folders.	08:38
RobbieThe1st	/home has your user profile on it - all program configuration etc. /opt has 3rd-party programs in it, mainly.	08:39
Jenna	oh and the GasBalls hanged on me once too. Is that normal. (I had to pkill them) ?	08:39
RobbieThe1st	Probably	08:40
Jenna	RobbieThe1st, but If you do a backup & then restore after flashing. Shouldn't everything be okay ?	08:40
RobbieThe1st	Yes.	08:40
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RobbieThe1st	at least, "ok" to the point at which you installed everything - If there's a glitch in a program, it's not (usually) going to fix that	08:41
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RobbieThe1st	What I -will- say though is that, because you didn't flash the eMMC, when you restore your programs, you may find that settings you set before -didn't- get erased. Savegames being one example	08:42
Jenna	and another thing that I noticed was that When I log onto OVI account it shows that I have downloaded some of the applications which were installed before flashing the new Firmware (and are removed after flashing ofcourse). Shouldn't the cookies be removed after flashing. ?	08:44
Jenna	hmm. IC.	08:44
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Jenna	Anyway I wonder If anyone has ever cloned the whole n900 filesystem with clonezilla & restored it ala Ghost.	08:46
ruskie	should be possible	08:46
RobbieThe1st	Heh, funny you should mention that	08:46
RobbieThe1st	's sort of what I'm doing with BackupMenu	08:46
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RobbieThe1st	Only, for safety reasons, I do backups and restores with most of the OS not running	08:47
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Jenna	RobbieThe1st, is there a how-to doc in the offing ? :)	08:48
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RobbieThe1st	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=844029# Would that be helpful?	08:48
RobbieThe1st	... t.m.o's down again.	08:50
Jenna	yeah. was wondering what it is taking ages to open	08:51
RobbieThe1st	Give it a few minutes	08:51
Jenna	it been flaky since yesteraday	08:51
Jenna	its*	08:51
RobbieThe1st	Longer than that - It's been going off and on for a couple months now, though usually only at a specific time	08:52
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Jenna	its running on rhel5. not sure whats the issue with them ?	08:54
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Jenna	Anyway care to suggest/share you novel/best apps for n900 ?	08:54
Termana	Yes, cause RedHat makes it absolutely fault proof	08:54
Termana	not	08:54
Termana	:p	08:54
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Appiah	Jenna: the media player :)	08:55
Jenna	Termana, the repository.maemo.org is running of debian . and its been like that as well.	08:56
Jenna	Appiah, check. what else ?	08:56
Appiah	Whatever you need	08:56
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Appiah	Dont install a bunch of apps just because... install when needed	08:57
Jenna	I don't know the novelty kinda apps. e.g n900fly or angleometer etc.. they are nice & usefull	08:57
psycho_oreos	I generally suggest some powersaving stuff like autodisconnect and some widgets like dataplan monitor, 3g/2g switcher	08:57
Appiah	flashlight is usefull	08:58
psycho_oreos	ssh switcher and status viewer is useful if you use ssh a fair amount	08:58
psycho_oreos	load applet that can take screenshots and video recording comes in very handy	08:59
* ruskie just runs ssh all the time		08:59
Jenna	yeah I have all those. but I think have more apps shouldn't matter as long as those are not always (read backgroud) running kinda tasks. I think widgets come in that category. (hence eating up ur battery)	09:00
DocScrutinizer	simple brightness applet and load applet	09:00
* psycho_oreos is paranoid and uses mobile broadband nearly all of the time.. the last thing he wants is to leave ssh open on n900		09:00
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ruskie	psycho_oreos, you actually have open ports on that mobile connection?	09:00
Jucato	new app: N900Bounce - measures how hard the N900 bounces off a hard surface (like a floor) :D	09:00
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ruskie	psycho_oreos, as in incoming?	09:00
psycho_oreos	ruskie, well if you ran sshd for instance it would be declared as open otherwise I believe it will be filtered	09:01
Jenna	Jucato, no thanx. :) I'll give that a pass.	09:01
ruskie	psycho_oreos, not what I'm talking about ;)	09:01
ruskie	psycho_oreos, I can't directly connect to my n900 over the internet...	09:01
ruskie	the cellco has all INCOMING ports blocked	09:01
Jenna	for sshd you can always hasve fail2ban or denyhost running.	09:02
psycho_oreos	Jenna, most of the apps are really based on personal preferences.. there aren't much else for apps to recommend apart from general things such as widgets and stuff like maybe categorise for example	09:02
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psycho_oreos	ruskie, heh I haven't tried that but I'm a little paranoid as always	09:02
DocScrutinizer	apmefo	09:03
ruskie	psycho_oreos, well I'm paranoid as well... just give it a try ;)	09:03
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Jenna	psycho_oreos, I seem to suffer from bad battery life. simple wifi (Adhoc mode) runs it dry after ~1.5 hours.	09:03
ruskie	anyway I generally need to establish a vpn connection to my home network from it before I can ssh in over 3g	09:03
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ruskie	Jenna, adhoc is not simple wifi	09:03
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psycho_oreos	categorise is less work than apmefo if and when it works. For me it has always worked until I removed it to try out apmefo.. then removed that and reinstalled categorise which fails to work	09:03
ruskie	it's the most power hungry of all modes	09:03
* ruskie has a new kernel built and is scping the modules and it to the device atm...		09:04
psycho_oreos	ruskie, I'll do it when me quota resets :) right now I ran a nice bit of bill on mobile broadband	09:04
ruskie	what's your limit?	09:04
ruskie	and how much is it costing you	09:04
Guest77323	what's the deal with talk.maemo? it's up, it's down.	09:05
psycho_oreos	Jenna, hmm one can enable stuff like powersaving mode, and using stuff like autodisconnect, minor tweaks such as making brightness to as low as possible + backlight/screen timeouts	09:05
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Jenna	psycho_oreos, I always make sure to tone down the cpufrequency	09:06
psycho_oreos	ruskie, puny, 7GB and AUD$49 a month.. right now I've pretty much racked up roughly 5 times that amount	09:06
psycho_oreos	Jenna, using titan's kernel?	09:06
ruskie	Jenna, adhoc wifi is power hungry... simple as that	09:06
ruskie	always was always will be	09:06
ruskie	psycho_oreos, hmm ouch... I pay 10eur for 2gb but I could be paying 18eur for 20gb	09:07
Jenna	ruskie, In PR 1.2 there was a bug that any certificates used to work/even if they are expired (I think). Besides I haven't checked-up if this new firmware has WPA-2 support added.	09:07
ruskie	Jenna, it's Adhoc wifi	09:07
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ruskie	it behaves differently than in managed mode	09:07
Jenna	Guest77323, Its been like that for quite some time	09:07
psycho_oreos	ruskie, where I live is basically the land of oligopolies' paradise.. all there to milk money out of consumers	09:08
Jenna	psycho_oreos, no. the plain kernel. it that (titan kerne) any good on battery etc.. ?	09:08
ruskie	psycho_oreos, well not that different here... though atleast here we have some regulators that will step on their fingers	09:08
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Guest77323	I know. ever since 1.3 a few days ago the website goes offline sometimes. Just looking for why, I guess.	09:09
psycho_oreos	Jenna, hmm titan's kernel imo won't be that much more of power saving imo (since it doesn't have 128MHz clock for phone calls or something) but I get around 10 or so hours usage (no adhoc)	09:09
psycho_oreos	ruskie, which is good, here the regulator is quite lax about it all	09:10
Jenna	ruskie, Im using ubuntu 10.04 to with my n900. not sure which doesnot support which. I guess I need to digg deep a little more.	09:10
Guest77323	can't seem to find the twitter status for it either. I thought htey had an account	09:10
ruskie	psycho_oreos, of course there's only 2mio of us and we have 2 real and 3 or 4 virtual cellcos ;)	09:10
ruskie	now to see what I can break(with my own build of the kernel)	09:11
psycho_oreos	ruskie, out here there's more but you won't find nice deals especially for wireless broadband, they'll just rip you off if you exceed over your monthly quot rather than shaping you.	09:12
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Jenna	Anyway since you can't hook a RJ-45 with it . I wonder if anyone of have tried USB as an network interface with this. (not sure but in maemo speak its called usb tethering.)	09:13
psycho_oreos	Jenna, yeah USB networking, I've done it	09:13
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Jenna	psycho_oreos, I gather you have to add lots of non-standard stuff to get it going (u know modified kernel n stuff). is that true. ?	09:15
ruskie	nope	09:16
ruskie	works out of the box	09:16
ruskie	hookup the usb cable... select phone mode... setup local usb0 and modules... ssh in	09:16
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psycho_oreos	Jenna, for USB networking you don't need to hack that much :) but otherwise yes I have some non-standard stuff running on my n900 now	09:17
* Jenna prefers ruskie's method		09:18
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Jenna	ruskie, the doc link for RT*M please !	09:18
ruskie	http://wiki.maemo.org/USB_networking	09:19
ruskie	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking	09:19
ruskie	to be precise	09:19
Jenna	hmm. lots of typing. But I guess I can write a onetime script for this.	09:21
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Jenna	And I suppose you guyz have not given meego 1.1 a try yet ?	09:23
ruskie	nope	09:23
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psycho_oreos	nope, 1.1 doesn't have the features I want yet (I would love to have a complete maemo sort of alternative) plus my holdovers with RPM still exist	09:24
ruskie	gah... forgot to run the depmod on the modules dir...	09:24
psycho_oreos	symbol errors? ;)	09:25
ruskie	no... simply no module loading	09:25
ruskie	grumbl...	09:25
psycho_oreos	ahh	09:25
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Jenna	psycho_oreos, meego is not debian based ?	09:25
chx	well, look, the N900 sucks as a phone so on earth would you want to install an even more broken phone stack on it :) ?	09:25
chx	it's an awesome little Linux computer, of course.	09:26
chx	but Meego helps little there as htere are few apps	09:26
psycho_oreos	Jenna, no, it uses RPM package management system as opposed to maemo's DEB package management system	09:26
chx	is this a good assesment?	09:26
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psycho_oreos	N900 may suck as a phone but that doesn't mean that one can't use N900 as a phone anyway :)	09:27
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chx	of course, i just gave a reasoning why meego 1.1 makes no sense	09:27
Venemo_N900	hi	09:27
Jenna	oh. I have been in love with debian eversince I moved over to it after using rpm based distros for 7 years	09:27
Jucato	1.1 isn't meant for end-user/daily usage yet anyway	09:28
psycho_oreos	though meego's approach is technically to be open as opposed to maemo's current proprietary stuff here and there	09:28
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psycho_oreos	phone control for example under maemo is proprietary whereas under meego for n900 is open	09:28
chx	i will believe that when i see an open source wifi driver...	09:28
Venemo_N900	psycho_oreos: meego's approach is to be as open as possible	09:29
psycho_oreos	wl1251 is open :)	09:29
kwtm	raster: Hey, you are back!	09:29
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chx	psycho_oreos: if that's so then what's all this problems with using it in master mode?	09:29
Stskeeps	chx: wl1251 fw is redistributable (like on pc), wifi driver is open in kernel	09:29
psycho_oreos	Venemo_N900, which is good but I still have my grudges with its use of RPM (it'll eventually be over once I do give meego a proper run)	09:29
Jucato	wifi != phone control afaik. so open source wifi driver is not (directly) related to open source phone control	09:30
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Venemo_N900	psycho_oreos: well nothing's wrong with rpm	09:30
psycho_oreos	chx, its because the kernel is ancient on n900, its using 2.6.28.. compat-wireless should give it more edge esp. with injection support	09:30
kwtm	psycho_oreos: Are there any technical concerns with RPM other than it's different from APT? I used to use Mandrake and don't recall any particular problem with urpmi.	09:30
kwtm	It was a long time ago, though.	09:30
chx	psycho_oreos: compat-wireless works on the N900??	09:30
psycho_oreos	Venemo_N900, personal grudges :) had a really bad holdover eversince using rh8 and later on suse pro 8	09:31
Stskeeps	kwtm: you can't compare rpm and apt - rpm can be compared to dpkg and apt compared to zypper or yum	09:31
Jucato	rpm is to dpkg as urpmi/yum/zypper is to apt	09:31
Myrtti	groan	09:31
Jucato	bah Stskeeps beat me :P	09:31
chx	psycho_oreos: compat-wireless gave my laptop a new life by allowing power management on the wifi	09:31
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kwtm	Stskeeps: Right, I meant to use the two metonymously to represent the two systems, but you're right --I should have said RPM and DEB.	09:31
kwtm	Okay, fine, I'll try again:	09:31
Jucato	"metonymously" ... gotta look that up >.<	09:31
psycho_oreos	kwtm, had issues with rpm being really really unstable, causes segfaults and I had to reissue rebuilding of rpmdb.. that plus usually botched up installation..	09:31
kwtm	psycho_oreos: Are there any technical concerns with RPM other than it's different from DEB? I used to use Mandrake and don't recall any particular problem with urpmi.	09:31
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chx	i might be an idiot but arent RPM files a lot harder to create than DEB	09:31
Stskeeps	chx: i actually find deb files harder than rpm nowadays	09:32
kwtm	psycho_oreos: Okay, so the rpm system is just not as well done as deb, then.	09:32
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psycho_oreos	chx, I dunno if compat-wireless works on n900 but in theory one should be able to make it work with n900.. surely	09:32
Jucato	chx: I haven't tried RPM yet, but I would already beg to differ at this point :)	09:32
Jucato	I mean, creating RPM pacakges. but from the docs I've read, it's not harder than DEB	09:32
chx	OK so what should i rtfm on the N900 wifi in master mode?	09:32
chx	i really need that	09:33
psycho_oreos	kwtm, that plus some frontend tools.. such as deb-repack and apt-mirror.. I'll admit they are such a hack but where's the equivalent for rpm? none yet	09:33
chx	right now i am using an option 442 data card in a ctr 500 router for a mobile hotspot	09:33
kwtm	Jucato: metonymy: the use of a part of an object to refer to the entire object. Like "all hands on deck" (meaning all PEOPLE, not just their hands) or "get your BUTT over here!" (and bring the rest of your body)	09:33
chx	it's painful to move the SIM card :/	09:33
Jenna	anyway I hope maemo would allow to run the meego rpm apps thru alien or something.	09:33
Jucato	kwtm: thanks. I got redirected to many times: metonymously -> metonymically -> metonomy :)	09:33
Jucato	metonymy*	09:34
psycho_oreos	chx, won't be easy, you'll need compat-wirelesss for starters, then you'll need to somehow build iw with sb.. and then hostapd (which is mandatory for all mac80211 based drivers and that includes wl1251)	09:34
* ruskie builds a monolithic kernel to try and rescue his n900 from a reflash		09:34
kwtm	Jucato: Oh, there's no such word as "metonymously"? Mea culpa. :P	09:34
chx	psycho_oreos: so just give up and use ad-hoc? i guess that can work too. is there a free solution? JoikuSpot binds to IMSI and that's unnacceptable, some months I am changing my SIMs more than my socks.	09:35
Jucato	ruskie: any luck of SMGL on it yet? :)	09:35
Jenna	ruskie, linux is usually monolithic unless you go on the path of GNU Hurd	09:35
Jucato	kwtm: np, google was kind enough to tell me so :)	09:35
ruskie	Jenna, what I meant is no modules... all built in	09:35
psycho_oreos	chx, I wouldn't give up easily, I'm tempted to also try and figure out how to get master mode working but it isn't easy for an average joe when there's fair amount of deps one needs. However all is said in theory master mode should work provided one has met all the pre-requisites of setting one up	09:36
Jenna	ruskie, oh. u mean compile the kernel with most of the modules being compiled as "loadable modules".	09:37
* kwtm is only academically interested in this talk of Meego while he doesn't even want to upgrade from PR1.2 to PR1.3 (who knows what it will break, knowing Nokia...) :P		09:37
ruskie	kwtm, I must say nothing broke for a change ;)	09:37
ruskie	atleast for me	09:37
ruskie	and I tend to mess with modified init scripts and such ;)	09:37
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kwtm	ruskie: Really! Well, okay, if more people say that then I might just go ahead and upgrade. But were there worthwhile improvements? I'm perfectly happy with 1.2 right now.	09:38
Jenna	ruskie ; But a good amount of thought must have been already put into while building a generic kernel. as to what sort of things would be most frequently used n stuff etc..	09:38
ruskie	can't really say	09:38
ruskie	only been using it a day or two	09:38
psycho_oreos	that reminds me... re: PR1.3	09:38
flux	apparently it hasn't gone for worse, atleast	09:38
Jenna	kwtm, unless you try n900bounce app. It should surely break it	09:39
Guest77323	nothing broke for me. but it did make me ditch all the crud I had built up (you have to reinstall apps)	09:39
kwtm	ruskie: I get to claim to be the King of "Mess with Modified Init Scripts". I found the one-line text file that killed the N900 (reflash or return to store). :P Not that I'm such an expert on these things; I just stumbled into it and almost gave up on the N900.	09:39
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ruskie	kwtm, lol... I started messing with them the day I got it...	09:39
kwtm	Jenna: Is that the "n900fly" or something like that? "How far can you throw your n900"? I couldn't believe it...	09:39
ruskie	kwtm, http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Ruskie	09:39
Jucato	kwtm: just an app idea. "how hard can your N900 bounce" :)	09:40
kwtm	Jenna: although it would be nice to have an "accelerometer record" app for the car to see how hard I brake/swerve when I drive. :)	09:40
RobbieThe1st	It's device-breaking time!	09:40
ruskie	anyway it's actually sad that the n900 is so easy to break though	09:40
chx	psycho_oreos: http://mobilehotspot.garage.maemo.org/ what's with this?	09:40
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: imagine, they were unable to repair my N900 so they replaced it	09:40
Jucato	kwtm: this would be great for a MeeGo tablet too: http://www.cultofmac.com/self-evidently-bad-app-idea-scale-for-ipad/45179	09:40
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Guest77323	this is why we can't have nice things	09:40
Jenna	kwtm, Im a bit stingy with my spending. so I dont have a big heart to try various altitudes	09:40
kwtm	ruskie: Are you using an Otter Box? It looks indestructible (not that I've ever tried to test it...)	09:41
ruskie	kwtm, I meant software wise	09:41
psycho_oreos	chx, that uses ad-hoc mode.. I have it installed and it isn't particularly great but one should never complain over free lunch :)	09:41
kwtm	Jenna: Ah, unlike you, I bought three N900's in a row.	09:41
ruskie	every little thing breaks it... ow you want to mount /usr... sure... breaks... because stuff in /bin needs stuff in /usr/lib	09:41
ruskie	kwtm, oh wow	09:42
* kwtm conveniently omits the fact that he returned the first two because of a defect. Yeah, the one-liner text file that killed the bootup process.		09:42
ruskie	lol	09:42
RobbieThe1st	Ruskie: Sounds to me like you want to be able to make RootFS images to flash when you break things..	09:42
* psycho_oreos would be happy if he could afford to another n900		09:42
Jenna	btw I hear they make alumimum casings for n900 as well. Anyone invested on those ?	09:42
chx	psycho_oreos: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=757040&postcount=214 seems the firmware has a bug	09:42
RobbieThe1st	ruskie: Like, say, http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/01/making-flashable-rootfss-for-n900.html	09:42
ruskie	RobbieThe1st, have considered it	09:43
kwtm	ruskie: I can't beat your web page. I can only offer this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=58551&page=3	09:44
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psycho_oreos	chx, interesting, oh well that looks like it would be seen as TI's fault	09:44
chx	psycho_oreos: http://www.expansys-usa.com/spectec-sdw-823-microsdio-wlan-card-802-11bg-140798/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=base would this work?	09:45
djszapi	checking whether the C compiler works... configure: error: cannot run C compiled programs. -> How can I avoid it in scratchbox while build the target debian package ?	09:46
djszapi	i386 target, it works with arm target though.	09:46
chx	http://www.spectec.com.tw/downloads.html source code here.	09:46
psycho_oreos	chx, I wouldn't know to be honest, plus USB host-mode could bring more potentials into the mix.	09:47
chx	thats not usb	09:48
kwtm	Anyway, I am on the verge of mapping a vim keystroke to phone phone numbers highlighted in a text file. I hate the built-in phone GUI. It is so clumsy...	09:48
RobbieThe1st	:P	09:48
ruskie	kwtm, interesting issue	09:49
psycho_oreos	chx, correct it isn't but I'm not sure how will it function under maemo :)	09:49
ruskie	kwtm, you know you can just type on the desktop and it'll get you to the contact?	09:49
kwtm	The contacts database takes forever to search through (not for everybody, it seems, but for me).	09:49
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ruskie	hmm	09:50
ruskie	how many contacts do you have?	09:50
kwtm	ruskie: Actually, I am trying to avoid using the contact database. It slows down when I load the Conversations widget (because then it has to look up each phone number to map the phone number to the name). Same with loading the phone app since it has to load contacts database.	09:50
kwtm	ruskie: Only about 2580 or so. Other people tell me they have 2000+ with no slowdown.	09:50
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ruskie	kwtm, last I checked all those were preloaded	09:50
RobbieThe1st	..Huh, it worked. Great. So, current version of BackupMenu works fine on PR1.3	09:50
ruskie	contacts, phone, browser, etc...	09:51
ruskie	kwtm, lol...	09:51
Guest77323	god I need more friends.	09:51
kwtm	ruskie: AND the contacts app can't import more than 1000 contacts at a time (thanks a lot, Nokia!)	09:51
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ruskie	do you actually know all 2580 ppl?	09:51
Venemo_N900	kwtm: lol	09:51
ruskie	or are those like fecesbook friends?	09:51
kwtm	ruskie: Why do I need to know all 2580 ppl? When you have 2580 files on your computer, do people ask, "Do you know what is contained in all 2580 files"? Do you make sure that you know what is in each of 2580 photos that you took?	09:52
ruskie	kwtm, generally yes	09:52
kwtm	ruskie: But, to answer you, YES I know all 2580 people. Why would I put in the contacts database otherwise?	09:52
ruskie	I sort through them and discard any I don't like	09:52
Guest77323	lol	09:52
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ruskie	hmm I think I have less than 30 contacts in mine	09:53
kwtm	I think the contacts app was designed by some pathetic Nokia engineer. "Hey, I tried importing my ENTIRE list of friends, and both of the entries got imported, so it must work!"	09:53
ruskie	and even there I generally don't use more than 2-3 regulary	09:53
ruskie	kwtm, tried using syncevolution to sync from a syncml server?	09:53
kwtm	(apologies if said pathetic Nokia engineer is among present company)	09:54
ruskie	well imho I'd call 2000+ a corner case	09:54
ruskie	not something one would use to test against	09:54
kwtm	ruskie: Hmm... not sure what you are saying about syncevolution. Is that supposed to start my phone app more quickly because it doesn't have to keep rummaging through my contacts?	09:54
Jenna	RobbieThe1st, I suppose and editing is in the order of that page http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=844029#	09:54
ruskie	no I meant for importing contacts ;)	09:54
ruskie	I think the average would be more like 50 maybe 100 contacts	09:54
kwtm	ruskie: Well, I've managed to import all contacts. Just had to do it 1000 contacts at a time. But my beef is not just (or even mainly) that it would only import 1000 at a time.	09:55
ruskie	yes you said so	09:55
kwtm	My beef is that it would ONLY import 1000 at a time AND NOT TELL ME.	09:55
ruskie	lol	09:55
RobbieThe1st	Yea, I suppose. I'm developing as I go, and have had to change things multiple times, so... Plus, I probably should go find a proper layout template..	09:55
kwtm	So: "Okay, user, I've imported ALL your contacts." (in an aside whisper) "The first 1000 contacts, anyway. Why would you need me to import more?"	09:56
RobbieThe1st	Like, a list of proper sections and all	09:56
kwtm	And then I have to figure out WHICH contacts have been imported and which haven't. So then I reimport the rest of the file and have duplicate contacts.	09:56
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kwtm	Ever try to merge 1000 duplicate contacts? (No, don't tell me about the "merge duplicate contacts" app which makes you check off 1000 checkboxes to merge the 1000 duplicate contacts)	09:56
Venemo_N900	kwtm: I only did this with a few hundred, not 1000	09:57
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kwtm	However, to get back to what I originally mentioned: I could stick these contacts all in one big 10MB (or 100MB) text file and vim can handle it fine.	09:58
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ruskie	hmm would be nice to have a smart merge contacts system...	09:58
kwtm	So I'll just get a vim command to send some dbus command and dispense with all the contact lookup.	09:58
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RobbieThe1st	Yea, that's true. VIM's frigging awesome	09:58
kwtm	The only thing I need is how to generate DTMF tones while in a phone call (e.g. "John is not available right now --press 1 to leave a message" etc.)	09:59
kwtm	RobbieThe1st: vim is the most-used application I have. I use it to take notes and look up this huge database of drug info (I'm a doctor; I use this every day)	10:00
RobbieThe1st	I can imagine. Personally, I use it as my console text-editor on both my N900 and desktop, though I do tend to use a GUI editor when I'm on the desktop. If I'm editing cfg or script files though? vim it is.	10:01
kerio	kwtm: there's probably a doctor-mode in emacs	10:01
kwtm	Speaking of text-based apps, is there a text-based browser like lynx, links2 or elinks for the N900 which can replace the built-in MicroB ("B" is for Bloat)?	10:02
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kerio	(not to mention the org-mode for taking notes, which i'm told is godly)	10:02
kwtm	kerio: Yeah, but I can't use emacs. I only have 10 fingers. :)	10:02
kerio	kwtm: you have a weird idea of bloat but... i guess lynx, links2 or elinks	10:02
RobbieThe1st	:P	10:02
kerio	i'd use dillo though	10:02
kerio	lightning fast, and has more features than elinks	10:02
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kwtm	kerio: Well, I currently use MicroB to load my home page with is a simple text file (okay, it's got one form field for looking up Google). It takes FOREVER to load!	10:02
Jucato	kwtm: I just saw links while browsing a while ago. in extras-devel probably	10:02
kerio	i mean, dillo supports css!	10:03
kwtm	kerio: Oh, dillo is a text browser? Haven't heard of it but sounds like I should look it up.	10:03
kerio	no, it's graphical	10:03
Jucato	kwtm: you should try it on fennec then! FOREVER * FOREVER :)	10:03
ruskie	no it isn't	10:03
kerio	but reeeeeeeeeeeeally fast	10:03
ruskie	it's a gui browser	10:03
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ruskie	I'll stick to uzbl myself though	10:03
kwtm	Jucato: Ahhh, yes. Fennec. Where, instead of taking a coffee break, you can fly to Colombia to pick out the coffee beans yourself while waiting for it to load. :)	10:03
ruskie	just wish someone would make a usable port of it for the n900	10:03
RobbieThe1st	kwtm: How come it takes so long? Heck, even Slashdot takes only around 20s with my 1.5m dsl connection...	10:04
Jucato	ruskie: didn't you use midori once upon a time?	10:04
RobbieThe1st	vs around 8s on my desktop	10:04
ruskie	Jucato, nope	10:04
kwtm	Well, I tried Midori, but it has this weird bug. When I type some text (e.g. in the URL bar), it replaces whatever I type with the Fn+ key. For example, I type S, then "S" appears, and then it disappears and is replaced by "+". D becomes # and F becomes -. Weird.	10:05
kerio	http://arewefastyet.com/	10:05
kwtm	RobbieThe1st: No idea. It's a built in text file on the N900. It doesn't even need an internet connect, for crying out loud. (I just use the text file as a quick way to get to various links, like Google, or my .documents directory, etc.)	10:05
kerio	sunspider ftw	10:05
RobbieThe1st	Wow	10:05
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kwtm	Midori doesn't have a file browser. It chokes on URLs like "file:///home/user/MyDocs/.documents"	10:06
ruskie	true	10:06
kerio	kwtm: are you aware of the esistance of... you know... bookmarks	10:06
kerio	which is what you're supposed to use while browserd loads	10:07
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ruskie	hmmm anyone got an emergency recovery kernel with an initrd attached?	10:07
kwtm	kerio: Oh, I'd have to use the bookmarks feature of MicroB instead of having it load a single textonly HTML file from the local file system? From my experience, bookmarks are even slower (and they have to generate a graphics thumbnail).	10:07
kerio	kwtm: they load fast though	10:08
kerio	open Web	10:08
kerio	it opens up "instantly"	10:08
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kerio	ask timeless_mbp for the reason	10:08
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kerio	he worked on microB	10:08
kwtm	kerio: Probably my N900 is slowed down for some reason. I've seen on threads that some people have very slow N900's and aren't sure why. There seem to be multiple reasons.	10:08
kwtm	Sometimes a restart will fix it, sometimes not.	10:08
ruskie	I'd say tracker might be the main issue	10:08
raster	kwtm: back from where? i never left	10:08
Venemo_N900	kwtm: when was your last reflash?	10:09
kwtm	ruskie: Yeah, what is this "tracker" thing? Is it like a built-in gremlin that slows everything down?	10:09
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kerio	while also indexing your music	10:09
kerio	so yeah	10:09
ruskie	kwtm, indexer	10:09
ruskie	documents etc...	10:10
kerio	there's also pulseaudio	10:10
ruskie	you can edit it's config file somewhere in your ~/ on the device	10:10
kerio	which is another built-in gremlin that slows everything down	10:10
kerio	while making you listen to shit	10:10
Jucato	thought PR 1.3 had PA-related fixes?	10:10
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RobbieThe1st	Oh, yea. That reminds me - Time to figure out the setting to disable apt auto-updates	10:10
kerio	Jucato: does it still use pa?	10:10
kwtm	raster: :) :) that's so funny: "Raster, you're back!" (40 minutes later) "What do you mean? I never left" ... uhh... Anyway, what I meant was that I didn't see you the few times that I signed on; I'm eager to hear more news about the Samsung Linux Phone thing. I know you can't say much, but ... still moving on track? I'm looking forward to having a choice of Real Linux Smartphones.	10:11
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Jucato	kerio: afaik yes.	10:11
kerio	then it's not fixed yet	10:11
Jucato	don't think they can replace PA in the middle of a release	10:11
Jucato	heh	10:11
raster	kwtm: oh i just lurk. people are just at my desk in real life :)	10:11
kwtm	kerio: I think that, on my N900, it's PulseAudio and also the swapping.	10:11
raster	or i'm off doing code	10:11
raster	or something	10:11
kwtm	raster: I figured that. :)	10:12
raster	as for on track - yes. moving. nicely	10:12
kerio	teh swapping :(	10:12
internetishard	Do any of you use iptables in maemo?	10:12
internetishard	Also, why is fennec so so to start loading (opera isn't)?	10:12
kwtm	I set "swappiness" to 1 (I think) and when the phone rings, it takes about 15 seconds for the phone app to become usable. Of course, my phone shunts to voice mail after 15 seconds...	10:12
kerio	internetishard: because gecko is not exactly light	10:13
internetishard	oh shpan i was wondering about swappiness on maemo	10:13
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kwtm	internetishard: You just cut and pasted your question about fennec from before (complete with typo: s/so/slow/2)	10:13
internetishard	yeah I'm smahsed	10:13
internetishard	just checking back irc before i crash	10:13
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internetishard	Appologies	10:13
timeless_mbp	kerio: what's the question?	10:13
raster	kwtm: swappiness to 1 or 100?	10:13
kerio	timeless_mbp: "why do you feel the need to lie to your user regarding the loading time of microb	10:14
kwtm	Is there some command to check swapping, like "while /bin/true; do am_I_swapping >> swap.log; sleep 5s; done" or something like that?	10:14
timeless_mbp	kerio: "duh"?	10:14
kerio	wrt bookmarks vs real windows"	10:14
kwtm	raster: Swappiness to 1, I think. So it tries not to swap, but when it does swap, it takes forever. At least that's my impression.	10:14
timeless_mbp	the system's dyloader more or less sucks	10:14
raster	just set to 0	10:14
kwtm	raster: I think default is 30? I tried changing it but it didn't help.	10:14
raster	well it will swap	10:15
raster	when it runs out of ram	10:15
timeless_mbp	so loading the engine takes time during which the process can't possibly give any feedback	10:15
raster	but it wont swap anon pages out in favor of disk cache	10:15
raster	which is what swappiness controls	10:15
timeless_mbp	imagine you had an app that couldn't possibly browse	10:15
kwtm	raster: Yeah, I actually think my N900 is so slow because it runs out of RAM. (And that contacts database must somehow thrash it badly)	10:15
timeless_mbp	what other thing could you possibly provide while you waited?	10:15
raster	then swappiness wont help u	10:15
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raster	contacts db - depends how its handled	10:16
raster	ifits mmaped and decoded onthe fly	10:16
kwtm	raster: Yeah, I found out the hard way...	10:16
raster	then that will be disk cache	10:16
dRbiG	ehh? i agree that tracker is a big mistake, but pulseaudio? in my case when i'm listening to music and someone calls it's almost instantenous that i get the ringtone instead of music and phone app ready to answer, or not	10:16
raster	thus swappiness will control it	10:16
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raster	if its loaded and kept all in heap.. then no.	10:16
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dRbiG	kerio: maybe the problem in your case is some other app, not pa	10:16
raster	kernel should have an easy (root only) feature to lock pages of a specific process into memory	10:17
raster	(mlock)	10:17
kwtm	dRbiG: I think it is me to whom you address your comment --kerio wasn't having a problem. But I think it's mainly ram.	10:17
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dRbiG	oh, sorry	10:17
raster	all pages it touches (read or write) should get mlocked by kernel auotmatically	10:17
raster	(until they are released)	10:17
kwtm	I can't prove it, but I think I just use vim a heck of a lot and it takes more memory, and then everything else swaps around... :P	10:17
kwtm	raster: Wow, I am swooning with all these impressive technical terms, but I think what you're saying is that swappiness is not my problem. But is swapping itself my problem?	10:18
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raster	yes	10:18
raster	swappiness can cause swapping	10:18
kwtm	My N900 slowly slows down until it's unusable every week or so. Then I turn it off and on, and sometimes it's back to normal, sometimes not.	10:18
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raster	but the thing that causes it is disk access	10:19
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raster	(reading files for example)	10:19
dRbiG	kwtm: strange	10:19
RobbieThe1st	Hm... Isn't there some setting that forces it to try to keep x KB free most all the time?	10:19
dRbiG	i have uptimes of weeks	10:19
raster	if you set it to 0	10:19
dRbiG	and it never slows down	10:19
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raster	then disk io wont force things to swap out	10:19
raster	BUT	10:19
raster	u still can get swapping due to simply being out of enouhg mem	10:19
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raster	and needing more for a process	10:19
kwtm	dRbiG: Oh, stop being so surprised. I found out that everyone uses his/her computer differently, so YOU could have no problem, but that doesn't really help ME.	10:19
dRbiG	kwtm: my bet is that you have some app that doesn't clean up properly	10:20
raster	and thats another matter entirely	10:20
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raster	there is a system call called mlock()	10:20
raster	only root can use it	10:20
raster	but u can use it to lock memory in place	10:20
dRbiG	kwtm: exactly - my 'help' here is that i would rule out pulseaudio as source	10:20
raster	that means it will not be swapped out	10:20
raster	ever	10:20
kwtm	dRbiG: Agreed, but what could it be? My suspicion is that it's one of the built-ins (or vim) because I don't use the others enough to cause swap flop	10:20
raster	until released or munlocked()	10:20
raster	but its a system call	10:20
raster	and you do it inside your app on ranges of memory	10:20
kwtm	dRbiG: I say pulseaudio because "conky" shows that pulseaudio will take up 16% CPU at a time when there is not really any sound playing (other than "click" when I tap on an icon).	10:21
raster	this means that a "vital" process that is needed and must react ASPA	10:21
raster	can at least avoid swapping itself back in	10:21
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raster	it can also mlock pages from its code and shared libs in to avoid paging them in too when it wakes up	10:21
kwtm	raster: From the standpoint of us non-technical mortals, is there a way to "lock" the phone app in memory, at least?	10:21
RobbieThe1st	Um... keep it running?	10:22
kwtm	Can I write a 3-line C program that says "mlock(phone_app);" or something?	10:22
raster	it could also be set to a realtime (fifo) priority to ensure it absolutely gets all the cpu it needs (other than cpu used by kernel to service interrupts and kernel services)	10:22
raster	so for example.. dialler should/could do that	10:22
raster	along with telephony server	10:22
kwtm	RobbieThe1st: Hmm, I never thought about that. It would be really inconvenient on the dashboard, but might be worth a try... wonder if I need to keep the Contacts app running, too.	10:22
raster	though as dialler needs x and compositor and wm to work also for display to happen	10:22
raster	u'd need to also mlock/realtime fifo them too	10:23
dRbiG	kwtm: hmm, does the cpu usage stays high for long or is it just a oneshoot peak?... and i think that conky is more suitable to be the memory and cpu hog it that case :)	10:23
raster	to make a sure-fire way to always handle an incoming call "instantly"	10:23
raster	anyway	10:23
raster	for those not wiritng the code	10:23
raster	u're "screwed"	10:23
raster	thats what i was getting at	10:23
raster	there is currently no way to tell the kernel to do this for u with a nice /proc/ value	10:23
raster	or something	10:23
kwtm	dRbiG: What do you mean, conky is more suitable? Conky lists the top 4 apps that use the most CPU, and I can see that PulseAudio is generally 1st or 2nd when my phone slows down.	10:23
raster	that'd be much more convenient	10:24
raster	(or not last i knew)	10:24
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kwtm	raster: Ahh, too bad. But now that you mention "dialler", is that the phone GUI? Could I (say) use a dbus command to dial a phone, and then only afterward invoke "dialler" so I have a GUI to respond to "Press 1 to leave a message, press 2 to get the operator" etc.?	10:25
RobbieThe1st	Y'know, we all complain about the N900 not being responsive enough... Ubuntu on a similar-spec'd machine(1ghz tablet, 512mb ram) is -so- much worse when running apps that take all available CPU	10:25
raster	wel conceptually its the dialling/calll handling gui process	10:25
raster	actually dont know what it is on maemo	10:25
raster	RobbieThe1st: hehehehe	10:25
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kwtm	RobbieThe1st: >sigh< Okay, we can all complain about Ubuntu, then, too. The point is: when you have a phone, it's not enough for the computer to be just a computer. When my patient calls don't come through because I can't answer the call in time, it doesn't help to say, "But Ubuntu is even slower!"	10:26
RobbieThe1st	True	10:26
raster	indeed	10:26
raster	that reminds me	10:26
raster	need to check on something	10:26
raster	thanks for the reminder :)	10:26
RobbieThe1st	the -obvious- thing to do then, is to call the N900 a "Mobile computer", with a sim-card-slot. Problem solved. :P	10:27
kwtm	I think (in my limited technical knowledge) that what we need is RTlinux. The phone gets to be a RT process. Everything else is just an idle process that executes in the background. WHen the phone rings, I don't care if the entire computer locks up and freezes while the phone app pops up.	10:27
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kwtm	RobbieThe1st: Yeah, that's what someone else said, too (but in a much less friendly way than you): "It's not a phone! It's a computer --with phone capabilities!" Meanwhile, it's being marketed worldwide as a phone. (Otherwise I wouldn't have bought it.)	10:28
crashanddie	actually, it's been marketed worldwide as a computer in your pocket	10:28
RobbieThe1st	Heck, I'd like a bit more than that - Give the phone RT priority, sound high priority, whatever app's in the foreground high priority. Everything else gets low priority.	10:28
kwtm	I guess Nokia can say, if Maemo runs slow, "It's not a computer! It's a paperweight --with computing and SD card IO and wifi capabilites"	10:28
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crashanddie	kwtm, http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/	10:29
dRbiG	kwtm: yes, it's a computer and phone is additional feature. anyway, i still think that you have some app or something that does something bad to pa when you get a call	10:29
crashanddie	kwtm, read the title of that page "Nokia N900 Mobile Computer"	10:29
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dRbiG	so pa is suddenly taking more resources that it should	10:29
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crashanddie	wrong focus	10:29
kwtm	RobbieThe1st: Agreed! Can't we expand nice from the -10to+10 range to -100to+100? I'm almost longing for the non-multitasking Treo650 that I had --"background" tasks have zero priority. They simply don't get executed at all! :)	10:29
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jacekowski	kwtm: there is something like that	10:30
jacekowski	kwtm: nice 19	10:30
kwtm	crashanddie: Oh, THERE you are! Was wondering when you'd pop up. Anyway, we had this discussion before.	10:30
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dRbiG	kwtm: on the other hand - did you have such problems when your n900 was bare to the factory settings?	10:30
crashanddie	erhm, no	10:31
crashanddie	you probably had this discussion with someone else	10:31
kwtm	dRbiG: Oh, don't even talk about bare-to-factory. It crashed on the second day (yeah, one-line text file again). But to answer your question: yes.	10:31
crashanddie	you know, one of the other few hundred geeks	10:31
crashanddie	who are... right	10:31
kwtm	crashanddie: No, it was you.	10:31
Myrtti	crashanddie: DENY TO THE LAST BREATH!	10:31
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jacekowski	kwtm: apps with nice 19 only are scheduled on to a processor if there are resources left from other apps	10:31
kwtm	Oh, er, right! Yeah, it must have been some other geek. Yeah.	10:31
kwtm	jacekowski: Really!? Okay, will try that.	10:32
jacekowski	kwtm: and/or you can SIGSTOP and SIGCONT apps as needed	10:32
kwtm	jacekowski: Is there a corollary: nice -19 will get whatever resources are available? Would love to renice -19 the phone.	10:32
jacekowski	kwtm: yes	10:32
jacekowski	kwtm: there is	10:32
jacekowski	kwtm: and phone app already has quite high nice	10:32
kwtm	jacekowski: Very interesting... okay. Will try that.	10:32
jacekowski	kwtm: and pulseaudio as well	10:33
kwtm	jacekowski: I figured the phone app would be negative-niced, which is why I am postulating that it's the contacts app that's slowing it down.	10:33
dRbiG	and both of them work for other people	10:33
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dRbiG	so guess is that the problem is actually somewhere else	10:33
jacekowski	kwtm: but if you have low nice app telling pulseaudio to do something strange it's not going to help	10:33
jacekowski	because it will be pulseaudio with high nice using lot of resources	10:33
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kwtm	dRbiG: Hmm, so you think it may be related to pulseaudio, but not directly the way pulseaudio is written. You think it may be some other app using pulseaudio in a non-optimal way.	10:34
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dRbiG	kwtm: exactly that was my guessing	10:34
jacekowski	pulseaudio is suboptimal by design	10:34
PaulFertser	jacekowski: hi :) do you probably know the answer to my question if i should flash "secondary", "2nd" and "xloader" and if yes, then which version (as pr1.3 has several bundled).	10:34
jacekowski	and it was obsolete at the moment of writing	10:34
kwtm	jacekowski: I don't suppose there's an equivalent of "swapnice -19	10:35
jacekowski	kwtm: renice	10:35
kwtm	jacekowski: I don't suppose there's an equivalent of "swapnice -19" where the app is never swapped out, as raster was implying?	10:35
jacekowski	ah	10:35
jacekowski	there is	10:35
jacekowski	but it has to be done by app	10:35
jacekowski	mlock	10:35
jacekowski	and it's blocked on most systems	10:35
jacekowski	because it has potential for abuse	10:36
jacekowski	because it's messing up with memory overcommit	10:36
dRbiG	a lot of potential for it	10:36
dRbiG	like a memory leaking app locked in ram... bye bye	10:36
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raster	kwtm: not swapnice - not prioritising swapping in and out	10:37
raster	but there is a way to NOT swap ever	10:37
raster	mlock	10:37
raster	or mlockall() to be specific	10:37
jacekowski	i just said tht	10:37
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dRbiG	or disable swap	10:37
raster	jav was getting to the mlockall bit :)	10:38
kwtm	raster: Oh, sorry .. mlock is a command-line command, or a C library function? My impression was the latter.	10:38
raster	csystem call	10:38
raster	(c lib func)	10:38
raster	the process has to call it	10:38
raster	ie u dant do it	10:38
raster	well actually	10:38
raster	i lie	10:38
jacekowski	you can do it with gdb	10:38
raster	u could use an ld_preload	10:38
raster	:)	10:38
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jacekowski	or ptrace	10:38
raster	yes	10:38
raster	or gdb	10:38
raster	:)	10:38
raster	yes	10:38
raster	but now we're getting silly :)	10:38
kwtm	Okay, from the point of a C language klutz, could I instead assign more memory to RAM and less to the virtual disk? I mean, the N900 has THIRTY-TWO gigs of RAM, and all but less than a gig goes to virtual disk!?	10:38
jacekowski	kwtm: no it doesn't	10:39
raster	no it doesnt	10:39
jacekowski	kwtm: n900 has only 256M of ram	10:39
raster	it has 256m of ram	10:39
raster	hahaha	10:39
raster	there's an echo in here	10:39
raster	:)	10:39
kwtm	Wow, I'm getting answers in stereo. :) But it only confirms that you two are right --please go on.	10:39
jacekowski	kwtm: that 32G is just an eMMC	10:39
raster	turn off swap	10:39
jacekowski	kwtm: flash memory	10:40
raster	and it'll work better	10:40
jacekowski	kwtm: it's really slow	10:40
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raster	thats your user clutz control	10:40
kwtm	Awww... 32G of snail-RAM!? Geez...	10:40
jacekowski	kwtm: it's not a ram	10:40
raster	its not ram	10:40
raster	its disk	10:40
jacekowski	kwtm: it's like a soldered on memory card	10:40
raster	(well nand flash behind an mmc wear leveling controller soldered onto the board as a chip and wired up to the emmc interface)	10:40
jacekowski	kwtm: same like the one you can change yourself	10:40
raster	err emmc interface	10:41
kwtm	No wonder I'm swapping! My drug info itself is 11Gig...	10:41
raster	mmc	10:41
raster	bah	10:41
jacekowski	kwtm: that has nothing to do with it	10:41
raster	n900 comes with 768m partition of disk AVAILABLe for swap	10:41
kwtm	Not that I mind vim swapping the text file. But ... 256M ram... I am so disappointed...	10:41
raster	it can be turned on and off	10:41
raster	this allows ram to be written out to flash (disk) when its not used much	10:41
jacekowski	kwtm: that's more than any other phone on the market	10:41
raster	to make room for new data that needs active ram	10:42
kwtm	raster: Please tell me the Samsung Linux Phone has at least 1G of RAM. Like, real RAM....	10:42
jacekowski	kwtm: up until couple months ago	10:42
jacekowski	kwtm: because new iphone has 512M	10:42
raster	swap is LOTs LOTS LOTs LOTs slower than ram	10:42
jacekowski	kwtm: nope it doesn't	10:42
raster	like 100's of times slower	10:42
raster	ram is costly	10:42
kwtm	jacekowski: Oh, are you on the Samsung Linux Phone team, too? Great!	10:42
raster	it makes the phone more expensive	10:42
raster	but it also makes power drain worse	10:42
jacekowski	kwtm: no but i read the news	10:42
jacekowski	kwtm: it's not yet released	10:43
raster	jacekowski: whatever we have wont be in the news :)	10:43
jacekowski	kwtm: so it's just all marketing	10:43
kwtm	raster: "More expensive"!? I paid 3 times the cost for the N900 compared to the other dummfones --it had BETTER have a bit more RAM in it! :P	10:43
raster	or marketing	10:43
kwtm	oh, baby crying b ack soon	10:43
jacekowski	kwtm: n900 was designed over year ago	10:43
raster	kwtm: n900 is cheapish	10:43
raster	$500 or so is good	10:43
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jacekowski	kwtm: and had 3-4 times more ram than any other phone	10:43
jacekowski	kwtm: at the time	10:43
raster	dumbphones will still cost $200 or so	10:43
raster	i've seen enough dumbphones cost > $1000	10:46
jacekowski	sat dumbphones?	10:46
raster	no	10:46
raster	just overpriced trendy ones	10:46
raster	and just after release	10:47
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Myrtti	Nokia 5230's are a tad over 100€ in Finland	10:48
Myrtti	they're crappy, plastic but in theory they're smartphones	10:48
dRbiG	gosh, i guess that if you wanted a fancy phone you should've went with an iphone	10:48
dRbiG	its fancy, it works	10:48
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dRbiG	you can buy a shitload of apps for it and if they happen not to work you always have the right to complain	10:49
dRbiG	:)	10:50
raster	i wouldnt spend $1k on a dumbphone	10:50
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jacekowski	raster: sat phone	10:51
raster	wouldnt buy one of them either	10:51
raster	:)	10:51
ruskie	fun flasher doesn't want to flash my device	10:52
rmrfchik	damn, recaller still wash away widgets from desktop	10:53
Jaffa	Morning, all	10:54
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rmrfchik	and in PR1.3 ringtond (from custom ringtones) used to die.	10:54
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: just flash whole image	10:56
ebzzry	ruskie: I always get "SSL connection timeout" errors	10:56
jacekowski	PaulFertser: or flash device specific version	10:56
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: i'm not sure which version of phone you've got	10:56
PaulFertser	jacekowski: i've got a pre-production model.	10:56
PaulFertser	jacekowski: HWID: 2001 Build: F4	10:57
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: hmm, that's a bit tricky then	11:03
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PaulFertser	jacekowski: i couldn't find _any_ source describing the pre-production models, neither do i know _anything_ about that cryptic bootloader scheme, so i have no idea which parts and why might i need to flash.	11:04
jacekowski	PaulFertser: why aren't you flashing full fiasco image?	11:04
PaulFertser	jacekowski: i can't because the bootloader parts do not match some "versions" or something like that.	11:05
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X-Fade	PaulFertser: You need a legacy image then.	11:05
jacekowski	ah	11:05
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X-Fade	PaulFertser: As your contact at nokia for that?	11:05
PaulFertser	X-Fade: i want to be on the PR1.3, not on the legacy image	11:05
X-Fade	PaulFertser: You have a legacy device, you need PR1.3 legacy.	11:06
jacekowski	X-Fade: you can leave old bootloader	11:06
jacekowski	and just flash rootfs	11:06
X-Fade	PaulFertser: That is a different fiasco packaged for legacy devices.	11:06
jacekowski	and possibly rapuyama	11:06
PaulFertser	X-Fade: why do you think there exist any? Also i'm told this particular version is not far from the production models (probably nothing different at all).	11:06
X-Fade	Yeah, that too. But there is an easy solution too ;)	11:06
X-Fade	PaulFertser: I run it :)	11:07
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ruskie	ebzzry, hmm tried opening it in a browser?	11:07
jacekowski	PaulFertser: just flash rootfs	11:07
PaulFertser	X-Fade: eh, sorry, what do you run?	11:07
jacekowski	PaulFertser: and see how it goes	11:07
jacekowski	PaulFertser: it may work	11:07
PaulFertser	jacekowski: what about the kernel?	11:07
jacekowski	and kernel	11:07
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jacekowski	kernel and rootfs	11:07
PaulFertser	jacekowski: that's exactly what i did.	11:07
jacekowski	and leave rapyuama and bootloader intact	11:07
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: does it work?	11:07
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PaulFertser	jacekowski: at least i see no oddities. But since pr1.3 has other parts bundled, that made me wonder why they included those.	11:08
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: they always do	11:08
jacekowski	PaulFertser: fiasco image can be used for coldflash of dead device	11:09
PaulFertser	jacekowski: always reflash bootloader even if there're no changes and zero need?	11:09
jacekowski	PaulFertser: they sometimes fix some bugs	11:09
PaulFertser	jacekowski: that's exactly what i'm worried about.	11:09
jacekowski	like 1.2 bootloader had blocked hardware encryption acceleration	11:09
ebzzry	ruskie: Yes, but the page doesn't load.	11:09
PaulFertser	(that my old BL version has some unfixed bugs)	11:09
jacekowski	but as far as i looked at new and old bootloder	11:09
jacekowski	there is nothing there	11:10
ebzzry	ruskie: Do you have a .deb of curl instead?	11:10
PaulFertser	jacekowski: are you a community member with some nice reversing skills or do you have some information from nokia?	11:10
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ebzzry	ruskie: Error code: sec_error_unknown_issuer	11:11
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: nah, i reversed it myself	11:16
PaulFertser	jacekowski: that's rather cool. Do you think it might make sense that you share some of your knowledge so that proper support of backing up (and flashing from the device) kernel would be added to 0xFFFF (as it doesn't seem to be functional now).	11:17
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: i could	11:19
jacekowski	PaulFertser: but it's complicated from legal side	11:19
PaulFertser	jacekowski: i mean e.g. debian folks would be glad to be able to reflash the kernel.	11:20
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PaulFertser	jacekowski: isn't it legal if you just outline some "specs" and e.g. i provide a patch for 0xffff?	11:20
jacekowski	who's the person writing 0xffff?	11:21
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: i can't write ANY code for it to be legal	11:21
ebzzry	ruskie: ?	11:21
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jacekowski	specs are only acceptable way	11:21
PaulFertser	jacekowski: so do not write it, just write some specs.	11:21
jacekowski	and even then it's scratching surface of copyright breach	11:22
PaulFertser	jacekowski: "pancake" is the author, whoever that is.	11:22
jacekowski	but i personally don't get idea why rewrite something that's working	11:22
PaulFertser	jacekowski: i do not think memory layout and stuff like that (header etc) can be copyrighted at all.	11:22
jacekowski	PaulFertser: but software itself is copyrighted	11:23
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PaulFertser	jacekowski: well, the thing is: it doesn't work. I do not know any way to backup currently used kernel. And i know no way to flash the kernel in some, say post-inst script for a debian package.	11:23
jacekowski	PaulFertser: and writing same software based on reverse engineered software is very illegal	11:23
jacekowski	PaulFertser: and doing it by passing specs between person doing RE and writing code	11:23
PaulFertser	jacekowski: software is copyrighted but as long as you do not post some disassembled source, you're not breaching anything afaict	11:23
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: is just moving it from very illegal to barely legal	11:24
* RST38h sighs		11:24
PaulFertser	jacekowski: there're plenty of examples when people did that (clean-room reimplementation) and nobody ever complained.	11:24
RST38h	Have we got two uberlawyers in the room, gentlemen? =)	11:24
jacekowski	nope	11:24
_trine	Philadelphia lawyers I think	11:25
PaulFertser	RST38h: do you know a way to flash a new kernel automatically after apt-get upgrade on the device?	11:25
jacekowski	PaulFertser: anyways, thing is that you can get kernel directly from mtd	11:25
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jacekowski	PaulFertser: yes	11:25
jacekowski	PaulFertser: nokia flasher	11:25
PaulFertser	jacekowski: doesn't work for _debian_..	11:25
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jacekowski	but i think on device flasher works differently to usb flasher	11:26
RST38h	Paul: I do not, but it is possible apparently	11:27
RST38h	Paul: PR1.2 did it, afaik	11:27
PaulFertser	jacekowski: (dump from mtd) for that i'd need to know the right offsets and header format (how much should i dump). And for flashing one should provide some data structures so the bootloader would be happy.	11:27
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RST38h	After it restarted the device, it showed a slightly different Nokia logo and a progress bar underneath	11:27
PaulFertser	RST38h: not in a way suitable for Debian, as they've used the proprietary nokia flasher.	11:27
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RST38h	Screw Debian	11:28
RST38h	You are using Maemo not Debian	11:28
PaulFertser	But i care about those who does use Debian.	11:28
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PaulFertser	And i care for functional 0xFFFF.	11:28
Venemo_N900	does ringtoned work on PR 1.3?	11:29
RST38h	Well, then you can continue caring about those who use Debian and their funny legal issues	11:29
PaulFertser	RST38h: btw, i think that the logo and "progress bar" come from some other parts, not from the kernel.	11:29
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jacekowski	hmm that's possible	11:29
RST38h	Paul: I think they come from some flasher program that PR install has scheduled to run at startup and update the kernel	11:30
jacekowski	that flasher writes kernel to some staging area	11:30
jacekowski	and nolo flashes it to wherever required	11:30
PaulFertser	RST38h: please notice how that's _you_ calling things that are very important for many honourable people "funny legal issues".	11:31
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Stskeeps	are we talking about debian-legal being honourable people? ;)	11:31
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jacekowski	because these are funny legal issues	11:32
PaulFertser	Guys, i came to get some support wrt bootloader. Not to be bullied again for being (relatively) sane and honest.	11:33
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jacekowski	thing is that we don't believe that debian-legal issues are sane	11:34
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X-Fade	PaulFertser: Why don't you take my advice and ask your contact at Nokia for a PR1.3 legacy image.	11:35
X-Fade	PaulFertser: A lot easier and it will work :)	11:35
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PaulFertser	jacekowski: you're dragging me into a conversation about "this world is so insane that you even can not notice it anymore" etc etc. Sorry, i'd prefer to discuss specs or mtd layout or anything not so flamous.	11:36
PaulFertser	X-Fade: i have no contact at Nokia, only Quim, but he doesn't seem to be knowledgeable about BLs.	11:36
Stskeeps	just say 'firmware image matching the prototype, ie, a LEGACY image' and he'd probably know what to do..	11:37
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PaulFertser	Stskeeps: i guess he'll get me the original pre-MP image if i ask him.	11:37
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PaulFertser	Stskeeps: also it makes zero sense to bother him about full image when i only need some _info_ about the bootloader.	11:37
X-Fade	PaulFertser: No, he is not dumb ;) This is a well known thing inside.	11:37
Stskeeps	PaulFertser: well, the legacy has bootloader/cmt support for those particular hardwares	11:38
X-Fade	Anyway, good luck ;)	11:38
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PaulFertser	X-Fade: i never implied he's dumb. I'm sure he's not. But i hasn't seen a single line of code from him either.	11:39
Stskeeps	PaulFertser: and easiest way to get those is well, asking for a legacy image	11:39
Stskeeps	:P	11:39
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* PaulFertser goes back to playing with fucking musb hardware state machine		11:40
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iksaif	anyone with some time to test an app ? lugdulov (0.3, in extra-dev, need PR 1.3) seems to crash on some devices, but I can't reproduce it. If anyone could reproduce that and give me a backtrace it would be great !	11:50
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PaulFertser	iksaif: let me try	11:53
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PaulFertser	iksaif: yes, reproduced here.	11:54
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PaulFertser	iksaif: i'll provide you with BT soon.	11:55
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Coke	Hey guys. Trying to get the latest update in, but it says I need some PC suite yada. I'm on 64-bit linux so that shit ain't gonna happen, how do I get past this backup nonsense?	11:55
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Coke	Is there a workaround or can I just ignore all future upgrades?	11:55
iksaif	PaulFertser: thanks :)	11:56
PaulFertser	iksaif: here it is: http://paste.debian.net/98584/	11:56
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Coke	Reading forums I see mixed replies. Some say it has to do with rootfs being full, uninstall all custom apps and continue from there. Some other says there's no need and that it "just worked" without PC suite and backups.	11:57
iksaif	hum this seems to come from QtLocation/liblocation	11:57
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iksaif	PaulFertser: could you send me a dpkg -l \| grep -i location ?	11:57
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PaulFertser	iksaif: http://paste.debian.net/98586/	11:58
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iksaif	hum, same version :/	12:00
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PaulFertser	iksaif: bike sharing? sounds interesting :)	12:00
iksaif	yeah .. but also sounds broken :p	12:01
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iksaif	but bike sharing like "city bike sharing services", most big cities have one	12:02
PaulFertser	iksaif: hey, i started "nokia maps" and then lugdulov and it didn't segfault this time.	12:03
iksaif	yep ... this seems to be a bug related to QtLocation / liblocation	12:04
iksaif	but I don't know why it works on my device :/	12:04
frals	Coke: it should say what the update conflicts with if you click details	12:05
Coke	i dont have that option	12:05
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Coke	I only have "Create backup" or cancel	12:05
PaulFertser	iksaif: after stopping nokia maps same sefgault.	12:06
Coke	wait. I uninstalled all extra apps and it actually continues	12:06
frals	cancel it and go to app manager and long tap on the update -> details	12:06
Coke	What is the disk size on the N900, less than 2Gb ?	12:06
Coke	1?	12:06
frals	df -h will tell you	12:06
frals	256mb rootfs or something, 2gb /opt, i think	12:06
Coke	Hm, no wonder it's such a pain, only 256m	12:07
Coke	well, I just uninstalled everything not necessary	12:07
iksaif	PaulFertser: do you have any other app using qtm-location ?	12:07
Coke	Seems to be downloading OK now.	12:07
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PaulFertser	iksaif: i've no idea :)	12:07
PaulFertser	iksaif: btw, can this be related: http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/forum/showthread.php?202073-Mobility-location-in-Maemo-not-working ?	12:07
Coke	frals: any easy way of increasing the rootfs size?	12:08
iksaif	PaulFertser: the backtrace looks the same, but the issue wasn't here on PR 1.2 :/	12:09
frals	Coke: unless you want to resolder a new nand chip, i dont think so? could probably hack around it with mountpoints, i think theres a wiki page about it	12:09
Coke	frals: nah. i guess i'll just have to get used to not having apps on it	12:10
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Coke	I guess the old iPhone4 mantra "it has apps" is finally paying of for the Apple fanboys	12:10
PaulFertser	iksaif: still that discussion looks related. Well, i'm open to do more tests, feel free to ping me.	12:10
iksaif	ok thanks	12:11
Coke	frals: hm, perhaps I can simply change the place where dpkg puts cached packages	12:11
frals	Coke: most apps should be installed to /opt/ so its not really an issue	12:12
frals	unless someone fucked up, but then it shouldnt be in extras/ovi :p	12:12
frals	and if its not in extras/ovi its not supproted, etc ;)	12:12
Coke	frals: i use extras	12:13
Coke	but I just assume they use /opt as well	12:13
Coke	OVI, I wouldn't touch it.	12:13
Coke	Having a full linux system on your phone and still insisting on running non-free apps just seems counter productive to me. :)	12:13
Coke	the package manager is getting on my last nerve tho. never seen a system with so few packages installed so incredibly slow. not sure if it's a problem with the disk or if someone put sleep(3000) syscall in some loop	12:14
iksaif	PaulFertser: just a question, before the crash: do you see any gps related message ? is the icon blinjing ?	12:15
PaulFertser	iksaif: i'm not looking at the screen, i'm using ssh over wifi :)	12:15
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frals	Coke: if you have some experience using debian id suggest using apt instead, thats what i do :P	12:15
PaulFertser	iksaif: this might give more clues: http://paste.debian.net/98587/	12:15
Coke	frals: is it faster than the app manager?	12:16
Coke	frals: and, yes, while we are trying to migrate away from debian here we still have two boxes. I was a devout Debian fan, maybe 4-5 years ago.	12:16
frals	yes, it skips a bunch of extra checks that ham does and well, you dont get the ui annoyance :P	12:16
sivang	morning all	12:17
iksaif	PaulFertser: thanks, I'll try to investigate using your bt	12:17
sivang	hey frals, others	12:17
Coke	frals: luckily, Maemo only use the package manager, not the package maintainers. :)	12:18
sivang	Coke: is this about the PR1.3 conflict upgrade?	12:18
Coke	sivang: i think that's taken care of, actually.	12:19
* sivang apologizes to jump into the discussion		12:19
Coke	I just uninstalled everything I had installed from extra	12:19
sivang	Coke: It was?	12:19
Coke	sivang: yes. I pressume I just had to free up some rootfs space	12:19
sivang	Coke: and it work? I hear a lot of reports about 1.3 breaking many things so I was a bit scared to try it	12:19
Coke	sivang: Oh, it isn't finished yet	12:19
Coke	Even though it's upgrading, the package system is just horribly slow	12:19
sivang	Coke: there was reported to be a conflicting packages, qt tests something etc.	12:20
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Coke	Been about 30 minutes of just "checking for updates", "downloading" and "installing"	12:20
sivang	Coke: I forgot what it was but lbt_ had to remove it to have it run	12:20
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lbt_	mmm	12:20
Coke	sivang: ill continue to install and get back to you in like 30 minutes with the results	12:20
lbt_	ah	12:20
lbt_	gltron	12:20
sivang	Coke: Yes, same here, I just stopped it in the middle reading the comments on #maemo about what upgrade did to several folks, I'll wait for a fix	12:20
lbt_	a recent post on maemo-planet found some others	12:21
sivang	lbt_: I would say we should have a page on the wiki with all pitfalls of the upgrade and strong warning	12:21
sivang	lbt_: just because the update manager blinks that yellow icon does not mean peeople should blindly upgrade I guess :)	12:21
lbt_	well, it should also report the apps that depend on things that conflict :)	12:22
sivang	lbt_: like https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11480	12:22
povbot	Bug 11480: PR1.3 broke libclutter-1.4, bug in file libGLESv2.so	12:22
lbt_	one should be able to do a root-cause (in deb-land) as you have the concept of 'auto-installed-to-satisfy-dependencies'	12:23
chem\|st	Coke: I got 100+ apps installed and 68.8MB 69%used at /	12:23
sivang	lbt_: yes, or those that are going to possibly 'break'	12:23
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sivang	lbt_: I hope this will be better for MeeGo	12:23
* sivang adds HAM to discussion points at talk		12:23
lbt_	sivang: not sure ... but the feature is important	12:23
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chem\|st	Coke: unoptified devel will fill that up pretty fast sure	12:24
lbt_	of coursr meego compliance means that apps can't have deps	12:24
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lbt_	so the app mgr doesn't have to deal with them	12:24
lbt_	so it won't	12:24
lbt_	so it'll all break horribly	12:24
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sivang	interesting	12:24
* lbt_ is such a realist ;)		12:24
X-Fade	Yeah, that is bad/sad.	12:24
sivang	lbt_: hehe	12:24
chem\|st	lbt_: it does in info (tell what conflicts)	12:25
sivang	X-Fade: At least it will prevent release managers from releasing breaking/broken stuff	12:25
sivang	or at least, so I hope.	12:25
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sivang	It is getting harder and harder to defend Maemo/N900 with this sort of things happening. My N900 fan boss recently left for iPhone... he said "I need a phone that works". :-/	12:26
PaulFertser	iksaif: heh, is that liblocation0 proprietary?	12:26
sivang	anyway- enough ranting, on to productive work!	12:26
* sivang is sure 1.3 will get some maintainance fixes soon		12:27
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Robot101	lbt_: meego... apps... no... deps... what?!	12:27
sivang	when they will be out, I'll tell him to upgrade- he waits for my word on it and my half educated advice was to wait with it, given the reports	12:27
Robot101	lbt_: because that works so well on macos?	12:27
sivang	Robot101: Surprised as you	12:27
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lbt_	Robot101: read the backlog... :)	12:27
lbt_	oh	12:28
lbt_	you mean compliance?	12:28
sivang	lbt_: so everything has to be slef contained and use only what's already installed on the device?	12:28
lbt_	yeah... you can only depend on stuff on the device	12:28
Stskeeps	if you want to be compliant..	12:28
Stskeeps	:P	12:28
lbt_	which means theres' no conflicts	12:28
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Stskeeps	doesn't mean it doesn't work	12:28
Stskeeps	:P	12:28
X-Fade	So you can have 20 times the same lib on your device. :)	12:28
lbt_	and no conflict resolution required for an app-mgr that only deals with "compliant" apps :)	12:28
PaulFertser	RST38h: now you might want to explain to iksaif how to debug a segfault inside a library for which "apt-get source" doesn't work. :\|	12:29
frals	uh, what kind of issues with 1.3? not encountered any at all since i installed it	12:29
lbt_	which is what the feature will be	12:29
lbt_	so the bug fixes will be marked "wishlist"	12:29
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lbt_	Robot101, Stskeeps... at least, I can see that as being a knock-on effect of the compliance issue.	12:30
sivang	X-Fade: why 20 times?	12:30
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X-Fade	sivang: Each app has to pack it's own 3rd partly libs then.	12:30
lcuk	will we see soft dependencies and dlsym!	12:30
lcuk	? even	12:31
sivang	hmm.... feels like, feels like..... Symbian? :-P	12:31
X-Fade	sivang: So if you have something that is really common, but not in meego, you will have it a lot of times on device.	12:31
sivang	X-Fade: and then rootfs will be out of space and I will need to do manual seasoned linux admin space freeing?	12:31
sivang	nice :)	12:31
X-Fade	sivang: Well, I guess that app storage and root will be separated. If they have thought it through ;)	12:32
sivang	X-Fade: Can this be made sure?	12:32
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X-Fade	Don't look at me ;)	12:32
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lbt_	there are definite +ves to having a category of "will work" apps... the problem is that the wording is hugely antagonistic to all other categories	12:33
sivang	well, at least this means we still have a world of work to do :)	12:33
lbt_	it strongly suggests that all othe apps are "not meego compliant" ... when a marketing/product manager sees that they will immediately dismiss such apps.	12:34
PaulFertser	iksaif: in fact i'm not fair enough, it seems its QtMobility::LiblocationWrapper::start gives wrong address (0x08) to gpsd_start.	12:34
lbt_	and that screws the pooch	12:34
PaulFertser	iksaif: to location_gpsd_control_start	12:34
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sivang	lbt: right	12:37
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sivang	lbt: and for an app to be deemed compliant it has to pass the compliance tests as in the acceptance testing of images?	12:38
sivang	lbt: or just be scanned for its deps, and rejected if deps are outside of system's runime?	12:38
sivang	*runtime	12:38
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Jucato	is there a sort of recovery (terminal) mode for the n900? :D	12:39
X-Fade	sivang: That depends, but checking deps is easy.	12:39
sivang	X-Fade: true	12:39
* sivang moves this to #meego-dev		12:39
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sivang	err, to #meego, preferably	12:40
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chem\|st	does for anyone the automatic time update work? my clock is about 7minutes ahead	12:41
phellarv	chem\|st: ntpdate?	12:42
phellarv	or ntpd	12:42
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jacekowski	chem\|st: use gps	12:42
sivang	frals: there were some	12:43
sivang	frals: messaging ui borking, clutter stuff, broken deps :)	12:43
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chem\|st	jacekowski: how does the clock automatic update work without gps?	12:43
sivang	Sabach El Noor MohammadAG :)	12:44
MohammadAG	morning sivang :)	12:44
sivang	MohammadAG: although it is almost noon :)	12:44
MohammadAG	it's IRC, isn't it :)	12:44
sivang	it is :)	12:44
tybollt	hmm	12:44
jacekowski	chem\|st: it doesn't	12:44
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jacekowski	chem\|st: it needs gsp	12:45
chem\|st	jacekowski: so only gps...	12:45
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tybollt	anyone successfully sent contacts via sms from N900 to a android phone?	12:45
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chem\|st	well my last use was about 6 days ago makes 1 minute off a day	12:45
PaulFertser	iksaif: the problem is rather somewhere in QtMobility::LiblocationWrapper that supplies some wrong pointer instead of the result of the liblocation_gpsd_control_get_default()	12:46
chem\|st	tybollt: nope	12:46
chem\|st	tybollt: but afair BT did work	12:47
tybollt	olrite	12:47
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PaulFertser	iksaif: in fact liblocation_gpsd_control_get_default is not getting called at all.	12:47
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tybollt	I sent this contact to missus android several times - every single sms was received (receive verification) but she says her phone didn't receive anything...	12:48
tybollt	weird	12:48
chem\|st	tybollt: don't know realy but I think it is an android problem as you send std vcards with n900	12:48
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chem\|st	tybollt: have you tried detail and card?	12:49
tybollt	probably android	12:50
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tybollt	I bet; the vcard is detected and redirected verbatim by Googlers to googlers.	12:50
chem\|st	as detail sends maximum a single sms but card might be 2	12:50
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chem\|st	tybollt: google it ;)	12:51
PaulFertser	iksaif: do you like this trick? ;) http://paste.debian.net/98596/	12:52
chem\|st	jacekowski: ok gps is on and time is still ahead (for minutes), is there a way to trigger it?	12:54
jacekowski	it should update as soon as it gets lock	12:56
chem\|st	ok then there is something wrong!	12:56
chem\|st	I tried Nokia maps, gps-testing env from nokia, gpsjini and so on...	12:57
chem\|st	12:04 still	12:57
ieatlint	the phone can update its clock via gps?	12:58
lcuk	o_O tracy just came to me after a google image search for "scary pumpkin faces" with a really dodgy site from the !first! image result o_O	12:58
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ieatlint	i didn't know it had support for using that... awesome	12:59
ieatlint	thought it could only use the cell tower's clock	12:59
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chem\|st	ieatlint: no it cant! grml	12:59
chem\|st	ieatlint: cell tower would be a good idea but mine does not update anything... I am 7 minutes off and dont know why	13:00
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ieatlint	well, i know it works with the cell tower	13:00
ieatlint	perhaps your cell tower is 7 minutes off, heh	13:00
chem\|st	just trying that... but a friend of mine, about 400m away has exact time	13:01
chem\|st	ok time is not getting updated at all	13:02
chem\|st	set to 11:57 now	13:02
ieatlint	huh, well, i can find nothing that supports the idea that maemo 5 does support updating system time from gps	13:02
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PaulFertser	iksaif: do you ever call QGeoPositionInfoSourceMaemo::init ?	13:02
ieatlint	but apparently ntp is in the repos, and it's definitely possible to find or write an app that will get a gps lock and set the time from it	13:03
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ieatlint	if you have data, ntp is easier/faster/more reliable	13:03
ieatlint	(by reliable, i mean you can't always get a gps lock)	13:03
iksaif	PaulFertser: sorry I was afk	13:03
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iksaif	PaulFertser: this function should by called by QtMobility	13:05
iksaif	all I do is ask QtLocation for the default localisation device	13:05
ieatlint	PaulFertser: i'm curious, you reference QGeoPositionInfoSourceMaemo::init ... i've been using qtmobility 1.0 on the n900, and there is no maemo specific class to my knowledge (and QGeoPositionInfoSource has no init() method)	13:06
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PaulFertser	ieatlint: hm, so that might well be the reason.	13:07
PaulFertser	ieatlint: look at http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/master/src/location/qgeopositioninfosource.cpp	13:07
ieatlint	i'm pulling up the qtmobility 1.1 docs... suppose i should be looking at them now	13:08
PaulFertser	ieatlint: nah, the source is better ;)	13:08
ieatlint	hah, right :P	13:08
MohammadAG	X-Fade, pin	13:08
MohammadAG	g	13:08
ieatlint	anywhere in particular in that file?	13:08
iksaif	PaulFertser: qt-mobility git is 1.2, maemo use 1.0.2	13:08
ieatlint	ah, i see it referencing QGeoPositionInfoSourceMaemo	13:08
X-Fade	MohammadAG: pong	13:08
PaulFertser	iksaif: too bad for maemo :)	13:09
ieatlint	i'd guess that's the maemo implementation for qtmobility location services...	13:09
ieatlint	meant to be only used by qtmobility, and not by app devs	13:09
iksaif	I should fill a bug report, but first I need to be able to reproduce the issue on a small test case	13:09
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MohammadAG	X-Fade, I got the repository set up, but HAM's ignoring community-ssu-enabler	13:10
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iksaif	and I'm not able to reproduce the crash on lugdulov .. maybe you have some special settings for your gps?	13:10
PaulFertser	iksaif: the strange thing is that some other apps (maemo maps) are able to somehow influence this process and they call proper functions.	13:10
PaulFertser	iksaif: not that i know of.	13:10
DocScrutinizer	~xyawn	13:10
infobot	i guess xyawn is big coffee	13:10
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Is it in a user/* section?	13:10
iksaif	time to eat, be back later	13:10
MohammadAG	Section: user/system	13:11
MohammadAG	not that it should matter	13:11
ieatlint	PaulFertser: ah, i actually only just now scrolled up to see the full details of what you're talking about	13:11
MohammadAG	it says ignoring version from wrong domain	13:11
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ieatlint	you're issue is that on maemo5, sometimes using qtm-location will cause a segfault, sometimes it will never launch liblocation and even try to get a lock, and sometimes it will work perfectly	13:12
ieatlint	right?	13:12
MohammadAG	X-Fade, can you see if the .install file works for you?	13:12
PaulFertser	ieatlint: not exactly, iksaif wrote an app on his own that tries to use location services.	13:12
PaulFertser	ieatlint: the 1.0 branch looks the same	13:13
ieatlint	any of that match?	13:14
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chem\|st	openntp installed...	13:14
PaulFertser	ieatlint: hm, what do you mean?	13:14
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ieatlint	i mean when you try to get a lock, with QGeoPositionSource::createDefaultSource() and then the startUpdates() method, it does not reliably start the gps device	13:16
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jarkkom	hmm, that seems weird, I've written couple of apps and didn't see anything like that	13:18
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ieatlint	were they tiny apps?	13:18
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jarkkom	though I had some interesting bugs when I was drawing map and GPS location fix too its time, apparently if you're drawing ellipse that is waaaaayyy offscreen device gets permanently stuck in QT rendering code :)	13:19
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jarkkom	because of uninitialized variables	13:19
ieatlint	ok, doesn't sound like it then, hehe	13:19
PaulFertser	ieatlint: looks like that, in the failing case the liblocation method to get default source is never called.	13:19
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jarkkom	how are you initializing your positionsource though?	13:20
ieatlint	PaulFertser: ah.. well, i've had similar experience	13:20
jarkkom	I mean maybe if you give it a parent QObject that then gets deleted and location source gets deleted as well?	13:20
PaulFertser	jarkkom: localisation = QGeoPositionInfoSource::createDefaultSource(this);	13:20
jarkkom	yeah but what is "this" in that case?	13:20
PaulFertser	jarkkom: MainWindow	13:20
jarkkom	shouldn't be a problem then	13:21
PaulFertser	jarkkom: i'm telling you, i used gdb to place breakpoint on liblocation_gpsd_control_get_default and it's never called on the failing case.	13:22
ieatlint	jarkkom: http://pastebin.com/twaUnS5s is my test app	13:22
ieatlint	can provide the .h if you'd like	13:22
ieatlint	(and the project file and main.cpp)	13:22
PaulFertser	ieatlint: do you mean you can reproduce too?	13:23
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ieatlint	PaulFertser: yes, but not always	13:23
ieatlint	i wrote an app, then tried to add a gps feature to it... and it would only work about half the time	13:23
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ieatlint	so i took the gps code, and made that test app, that just starts the gps device and prints out the lat/lon it gets	13:24
ieatlint	to help with debugging	13:24
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jarkkom	that code looks ok though	13:25
ieatlint	that app works for me about 80% of the time, and the other 20% it will never start location-daemon (and no gps icon appears in status bar). it will send "updates" from the gps -- but the QGeoPositionInfo is always empty	13:25
PaulFertser	jarkkom: probably LibLocationWrapper instance gets unreferenced somehow or something...	13:26
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* alterego just found the stylesheet stuff in QML to allow you to theme stuff sort of natively :D		13:26
DocScrutinizer	http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-29.log.html#t2010-10-29T07:20:54 +++ , anybody?	13:27
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ieatlint	i haven't actually tested it since the pr1.3 update... but i know i was already running qtm-location 1.0.2, so i doubt anything was changed	13:27
Coke	sivang: still here?	13:28
Coke	sivang: the update was installed and after a reboot everything seems to work just fine.	13:29
PaulFertser	DocScrutinizer: how to run it if the screen is locked?	13:29
Coke	sivang: at a glance, I would say that the update is safe.	13:29
PaulFertser	DocScrutinizer: ah, nvm, but i'm not really on stock kernel though changes are minimal and unrelated.	13:29
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DocScrutinizer	PaulFertser: via ssh, or simply lock the screen after firing the cmd	13:30
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MohammadAG	yay, two N8s incoming	13:31
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* MohammadAG ponders taking the OTG adapter, his dad won't use it		13:31
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PaulFertser	DocScrutinizer: sorry, running a kernel modified enough here, i hope someone else will easily do that.	13:33
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ieatlint	DocScrutinizer: do you care if the phone is not fully charged?	13:34
ieatlint	as in, plugged into wall charger; currently charging	13:34
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PaulFertser	DocScrutinizer: btw, looks like the command for boostoff i use is incorrect, it doesn't cut power immediately.	13:34
Coke	Is there some application similar to mirror that will allow me to record/snapshot/view from the front camera, but that does not require 22M of Python stuff?	13:34
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DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: we seem to have confirmed plugging charger makes pr1.3 kernel run CPU @ 500MHz all the time, while PR1.2 kernel is ok	13:35
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ieatlint	yes, my results support that	13:36
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ieatlint	not charging, 94% at 250mhz, whereas when on wall charger, 99% at 500mhz	13:37
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, isn't that the same but with a USB cable on PR1.2?	13:37
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DocScrutinizer	esp 0% in C4	13:38
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ieatlint	DocScrutinizer: is this the same when connected on usb?	13:41
DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: I haven't tested yet	13:42
ieatlint	grabbed my usb cable, testing now	13:45
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Venemo	hi guys	13:47
Venemo	how is it possible to make the tracker script not to index pictures in my .sounds folder on the N900?	13:47
Venemo	it annoys me to see the album arts in the photos app	13:47
MohammadAG	+1 on that	13:47
Venemo	:)	13:48
lcuk	in the tracker config you can blacklist folders	13:48
Venemo	ok, where's that config?	13:48
MohammadAG	but that blacklists all media from them lcuk	13:48
mgedmin	~curse tracker	13:48
infobot	May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, tracker !	13:48
Venemo	~nuke tracker	13:48
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at tracker ... B☢☢M!		13:48
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mgedmin	sanest solution would be to have a .trackerignore in each directory, listing filename patterns	13:49
mgedmin	sort of like .gitignore	13:49
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mgedmin	does VFAT support filenames that start with a dot?	13:49
MohammadAG	yes	13:49
lcuk	windows does not though!	13:49
ieatlint	DocScrutinizer: yeah... on usb, also appears to be always at 500mhz	13:49
ieatlint	identical to wall charger	13:49
DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: it's just 2(and a half) things I'm concerned about: it seems under PR1.3 kernel A) LiIon cell is kept floating at maximum charge voltage, which is said to kill the cell, and B) the CPU spinning empty at 500MHz, which according to Nokia HW guy (Igor?) is an absolute NoGo. Plus the half thing is about hostmode where this seems to bite us as well	13:50
Venemo	anyways, can I do this in a sane ways right now?	13:50
* mgedmin edits ~/.config/tracker/tracker.cfg		13:50
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, so on a hostmode PR1.3 kernel, it always runs @ 500?	13:50
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: "the CPU spinning empty at 500MHz" where did you get this from?	13:50
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: probably on a pr1.3 kernel with vboost, yes it does	13:51
DocScrutinizer	no matter if hostmode kernel or not	13:51
MohammadAG	did you track down the line in kernel diff?	13:51
mgedmin	I do not understand tracker	13:51
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: from powertop	13:51
SpeedEvil	on bat you mean too?	13:51
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alterego	If only Qt included an RDF parser	13:52
mgedmin	it has WatchDirectoryRoots listing MyDocs/.sounds, .documents etc.	13:52
ruskie	mgedmin, only need to understand enough of it to disable it ;)	13:52
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: interesting	13:52
mgedmin	but tracker indexes images under MyDocs/Books even though that's not listed in WatchDirectoryRoots	13:52
alterego	And I had access to it in QML js	13:52
ruskie	mgedmin, Watch isn't what you think it is	13:52
lcuk	mgedmin, does it have MyDocs/ as a root itself	13:52
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: not yet tested, but it feels like a good explanation for MohammadAG 's reported powerhog in PR1.3 with hostmode	13:52
Venemo	mgedmin: how do I block it from indexing images from .sounds?	13:52
mgedmin	lcuk, no	13:52
ieatlint	DocScrutinizer: that sounds awesome ... :(	13:53
ruskie	iirc by default it will index the entire device	13:53
mgedmin	ruskie, that's what I think too	13:53
Venemo	mgedmin: keep in mind that I still want it to index sounds from .sounds	13:53
ruskie	there's allowed and denied stuff iirc	13:53
SpeedEvil	Venemo: you can	13:53
SpeedEvil	Venemo: read the tracker config file	13:53
ruskie	atm can't check since my n900 is in limbo	13:53
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SpeedEvil	~/config/trracker/tracker.cfg	13:53
mgedmin	s/trracker/tracker/	13:53
SpeedEvil	excludedroots will tell it what roots not to index	13:53
SpeedEvil	then you can include dirs and subdirs explicitly	13:54
DocScrutinizer	and still it seems to index stuff that shouldn't - but maybe that's me and my rotten brain	13:54
Venemo	SpeedEvil: no match for the word 'excluded' in that file	13:54
SpeedEvil	I would suggest reading it then.	13:54
SpeedEvil	It's not exactly long.	13:54
mgedmin	there's NoWatchDirectory	13:55
mgedmin	"NOT to index and NOT to watch"	13:55
Venemo	SpeedEvil: there is WatchDirectoryRoots=$HOME/MyDocs/.sounds/;$HOME/MyDocs/.documents/;$HOME/MyDocs/.videos/;$HOME/MyDocs/.images/;$HOME/MyDocs/.camera/;	13:55
Venemo	SpeedEvil: however if I take out .sounds, it won't index music files from there either	13:55
SpeedEvil	take out sounds	13:56
SpeedEvil	add the directory in sounds you want to index	13:56
mgedmin	bloody ukeyboard tells me (with a f%@#ing modal dialog) that I can select new keyboard layouts in the settings app every f%$#ing time on upgrade	13:56
Venemo	SpeedEvil: ok. so you don't understand	13:56
Venemo	SpeedEvil: if I copy any album of any artist to the device, there is an album art image in there, in every folder	13:57
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SpeedEvil	ah	13:57
Venemo	SpeedEvil: those files are created by Windows for its convenience and it regenerates them all the time so I can't delete all of 'em	13:57
ruskie	anyone managed to load the meego-handset-armv7l-n900 1.1 successfully?	13:58
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ruskie	I dded the raw to the microsd card	13:58
ruskie	but it says it can't find any supported FS when booting on the phone	13:58
mgedmin	this trackerũbereagerness wouldn't bother me if the Images app started with "filter: Camera folder" by default, instead of "All images"	13:58
ruskie	using: flasher-3.5 -k meego-handset-armv7l-n900-1.1.80.3.20101026.1-vmlinuz-2.6.35.3-9.5-n900 -l -b to boot	13:58
mgedmin	s/ũ/ü/	13:59
infobot	mgedmin meant: this trackerübereagerness wouldn't bother me if the Images app started with "filter: Camera folder" by default, instead of "All images"	13:59
chem\|st	ruskie: yes and it's not worth it yet	13:59
SpeedEvil	that's thumbnailer, which is seperate from tracker I think.	13:59
ruskie	chem\|st, I need it atm	13:59
ruskie	my base kernel is dead	13:59
ruskie	and can't restore other than booting into a secondary os	13:59
ruskie	but I can't boot into a secondary os since it says no root device	14:00
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chem\|st	ruskie: ouch	14:00
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chem\|st	are you within linux or windows	14:00
ruskie	did you do anything special to get it to work?	14:00
ruskie	linux	14:00
ruskie	I followed this: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC	14:00
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MohammadAG	I think you'll get better answers in #meego	14:01
chem\|st	ok the partition table should show 2 partition I think it was one logic and one extended	14:01
ruskie	yeah	14:01
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ruskie	one is swap	14:01
ruskie	the other btrfs	14:01
ruskie	can mount the btrfs one here normaly	14:02
chem\|st	ok no idea go ==> #meego ...	14:02
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Coke	Any ideas why the front camera is showing a green video in mplayer?	14:02
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chem\|st	Coke: you mean greenish or a lighting green?	14:03
Coke	greenish	14:04
Coke	tinted, sort of	14:04
chem\|st	Coke: it gets better with enough light but I don't know, in PR1.2 it was just fine afair	14:04
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chem\|st	Coke: maybe adjusting settings will help	14:05
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Coke	chem\|st: it's daylight here with the sun streaming in, no less than 4 flourescent tubes also	14:06
chem\|st	are there settings for tv: in mplayer is a good question...	14:06
lcuk	merlin1991, whats this bug you noticed in browser?	14:06
Coke	chem\|st: basically, mplayer has worked fine with every v4l2 video device I ever tested it on	14:06
chem\|st	Coke: make a screenshot pls I'd like to compare with mine	14:07
merlin1991	if the n900 is up for some time the first window with the favourites list glitches in a way that you can't scroll to the last entry, it jumps back to the 1st all the time	14:07
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Venemo	merlin1991: go to bugs.maemo.org and report it	14:07
Coke	chem\|st: that would be too much work. first snapshot image, transfer to my PC, upload to a location you can access.	14:07
Coke	Nah. I'll just settle with the fact that it doesn't work.	14:07
chem\|st	Coke: send an email...	14:08
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Venemo	hm... what surprises me is that the N900 is thicker than the N810	14:08
Coke	chem\|st: no, but thanks for the help	14:08
chem\|st	Coke: ok ;)	14:08
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mgedmin	heavier, too, iirc	14:08
Coke	chem\|st: as a sidenote, v4l2 is rubbish. Half the controls never work and no UVC	14:09
chem\|st	Coke: the greenish here is more like a tinte	14:09
SpeedEvil	I want UVC	14:09
SpeedEvil	UVC would be nice.	14:09
SpeedEvil	UVC-gadget	14:09
Coke	SpeedEvil: you can always use the external uvcvideo driver	14:09
Coke	and libuvc	14:09
SpeedEvil	Plug it in, and two cameras, and a mic pop up.	14:09
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Coke	but it won't work with any normal v4l2 software	14:09
Venemo	mgedmin: yeah, heavier too, because it is loaded with more tech	14:09
SpeedEvil	I mean gadget UVC	14:09
mgedmin	sweet sweet tech	14:10
SpeedEvil	It looks like a camera to PCs you plug it into	14:10
lcuk	Venemo, extra camera required in base unit	14:10
Coke	Linux in general sucks big time when it comes to webcams, most of it because webcam vendors dont care about standards that much.	14:10
mgedmin	what's uvc?	14:10
mgedmin	ah, usb video	14:10
Coke	universal video control or something	14:10
mgedmin	on one hand it would be nice to have the n900 act as a web cam	14:10
mgedmin	on the other hand, video quality is kinda crap	14:11
Coke	mgedmin: no, not for that. :)	14:11
Venemo	lcuk: yeah, probably that's the reason	14:11
Coke	it was just a side note, that Linux generally suck with webcams, in particular UVC	14:11
chem\|st	SpeedEvil: that is what I mentioned month ago, wouldn't it be nice to export all those fancy gadgets to your PC?! like GPSmouse UVC and so on just by USBdevice handling?!	14:11
alterego	Is it safe to create /home/user/.profile?	14:11
chem\|st	Coke: true	14:11
alterego	I vaguely remember people complaing about infinite reboots when they messed with shell initialization ...	14:11
mgedmin	alterego, I have a ~/.profile on my n900	14:11
chem\|st	Coke: at least for most webcams I know, the one in my netbook is doing fine with v4l2 and/or uvc	14:12
Coke	mgedmin: while it would be a fun experiment to use N900 as a webcam, a normal webcam costs about $40, so...	14:12
mgedmin	I was always afraid my nokia would start boot-looping if I screwed it up, so I never screwed it up	14:12
alterego	mgedmin: cool, just want a few aliases :)	14:12
Coke	chem\|st: I get really bad results from apps using v4l2	14:12
alterego	mgedmin: sure	14:13
chem\|st	alterego: me too	14:13
Coke	chem\|st: except mplayer and ffmpeg, they just rock the socks out of any device	14:13
chem\|st	Coke: my desktop crashes on v4l2plugins for firefox(iceweasel)	14:14
Coke	chem\|st: v4l2 needs to become v4l3. better hw support and less insane API	14:14
chem\|st	the netbook is just working (ootb)	14:14
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Venemo	I simply love the 32 GB space on the N900	14:14
Coke	Yeah, I have a clevo stylenote and a logitech usb cam, both work nicely.	14:14
Coke	Venemo: I have 32G ????	14:15
Venemo	I no longer need to think about what music should I copy to it... I copy everything I like	14:15
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Venemo	Coke: I'm sorry?	14:15
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chem\|st	Coke: my logitech is the one not working since april	14:15
alterego	Venemo: got yours back now? :D	14:15
Coke	Venemo: I recently upgraded my N900, it required me to uninstall loads of shit to get space for the 85M download.	14:15
raster	aaaah good sammy	14:15
Coke	Why the fuck would I uninstall anything with 32G?	14:15
Coke	Grr.	14:15
raster	opensourcing gpu drivers	14:15
Venemo	Coke: the 32GB is not the rootfs. :)	14:15
Coke	Venemo: no, but does it matter?	14:16
Venemo	alterego: no, they couldn't fix it... so they replaced it	14:16
mgedmin	alterego, http://pastie.org/1257705	14:16
Coke	Venemo: I mean, they could have put the rootfs anywhere they want	14:16
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Venemo	Coke: yes, it does. the 32G is a build-in memory card	14:16
Coke	I'd gladly give up 16G to get just 1G of more rootfs	14:16
chem\|st	Coke: in case of speed they cannot do	14:16
Coke	Speed?	14:16
Coke	What speed?	14:16
chem\|st	device	14:16
Coke	It takes about 10 minutes to update the lists in the package manager.	14:17
alterego	Venemo: even better ;)	14:17
SpeedEvil	rootfs is a seperate 256M device	14:17
chem\|st	Coke: thats HAM if you apt-get update it takes a few seconds	14:17
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Coke	Obviously, the rootfs device is too small anyway.	14:17
Venemo	alterego: yeah. this one seems a bit different though	14:17
Coke	chem\|st: noted. I've stopped using the app manager now	14:17
Venemo	Coke: yeah, that's what optification is for	14:18
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Coke	256M + 32G. What a waste. 32G of space I will NEVER use	14:18
chem\|st	Coke: to store there stuff yes, for a / file system no	14:18
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Coke	and 256M that will constantly be full	14:18
alterego	mgedmin: that's pretty much exactly what I've done, though I've also added a . ~/aliasrc	14:18
alterego	which has a load of aliases	14:18
alterego	mostly ssh -t user@host screen -D -RR	14:19
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chem\|st	var should be anywhere else	14:19
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Coke	have a nice weekend dudes and dudettes	14:20
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chem\|st	alterego: -D -RR? -rd for servers for me...	14:21
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Venemo	alterego: next week I'll start looking through your stuff in depth	14:21
Venemo	alterego: not in the weekend though, cause I'm going home to my family and I won't bring with me my computer	14:22
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Venemo	~seen Khertan	14:22
infobot	khertan <~Khertan@AAmiens-553-1-169-251.w92-155.abo.wanadoo.fr> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 16h 8m 19s ago, saying: 'someone have the right to admin maemo builder ? seems he didn't want to build my package :)'.	14:22
alterego	Cool	14:23
Venemo	alterego: do you remember the thingy that we figured out? the trick to open the main menu of the app in a Maemo app?	14:23
alterego	Yes, it's in that code	14:24
lcuk	andre__, re bug 11485 its possible he could have bad bookmarks, i don't experience this problem on my device can someone confirm if it happens on theirs?	14:25
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/11485 favourites list scrolling jumps back to first entry	14:25
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chem\|st	lcuk: uptime 20h and no jumpback, I will try again 2morrow	14:28
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Venemo	alterego: k :)	14:30
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alterego	Look at the Maemo5MenuButton code, it's basically a button to open the menu when in fullscreen.	14:31
Venemo	alterego: okay	14:31
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lcuk	thanks chem\|st - my feeling too, i wonder where the bookmarks are stored so he can test clearing them and seeing if it was some kind of bad one	14:32
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kthomas_vh	MohammadAG, any chance you're still interested in the N810W?	14:35
Venemo	MohammadAG: is the community SSU _S_SU now?	14:35
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MohammadAG	kthomas_vh, short on money, or actually, I need the money for something else	14:36
MohammadAG	sorry :\|	14:36
MohammadAG	Venemo, yes, sort of, I still don't get why the terminal window isn't launched from postinst	14:36
kthomas_vh	np, I have to fly on Sunday and was looking to lower my weight :)	14:36
MohammadAG	Venemo, other than that, yes, it is SSU and not on an external site	14:36
Venemo	MohammadAG: ok, I'll try it now from PR 1.3	14:37
MohammadAG	Venemo, see channel	14:37
Venemo	MohammadAG: k	14:37
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kthomas_vh	otherwise, it is easy to sell in the US	14:37
Kaadlajk	lcuk: i believe bookmarks are in /home/user/.mozilla/microb/places.sqlite	14:38
lcuk	thanks Kaadlajk \o	14:38
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iksaif	PaulFertser: could you try "Zouba" it also uses libqtm-location ?	14:41
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PaulFertser	iksaif: hm possibly	14:42
iksaif	and PaulFertser could check your gps settings ? (if netowrk localisation if enabled, and if gps is enabled)	14:43
PaulFertser	iksaif: yes, yes, yes	14:43
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PaulFertser	iksaif: hm, zouba seems to start nicely every time (with sat receiver icon blinking etc)	14:47
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iksaif	but it was built against PR 1.2 .. so it doesn't necessary tell us something	14:47
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PaulFertser	iksaif: ldd output looks limilar	14:50
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PaulFertser	iksaif: sorry, no idea about the actual difference between the two apps...	14:59
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fcrochik	hi...can anybody help me with two questions on linux: can any think of a reason why "/opt/crochik/geeps > /home/user/MyDocs/geepslog.txt" would not work? the file is created but I still see the output on the screen :(	15:03
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achipa	fcrochik: stderr instead of sdout ?	15:03
fcrochik	2nd: is there a simple "script" I can run that will find a line "Backend=maemo5-crochik" and replace it with "Backend=maemo5" w/o messing with the other lines?	15:04
fcrochik	achipa: should be stdout ( qDebug() << ...)	15:04
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PaulFertser	fcrochik: sed -i 's/^Backend=maemo5-crochik$/Backend=maemo5/' file-you-want-to-change	15:05
fcrochik	PaulFertser: I will give a try....thanks!	15:05
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mgedmin	fcrochik, "The Qt implementation of these functions prints the text to the stderr output under Unix/X11 and Mac OS X."	15:08
mgedmin	says http://doc.trolltech.com/4.6/debug.html	15:08
mgedmin	about qDebug()	15:08
fcrochik	mgedmin: the funny thing is that it used to work... is it possible that has changed with qt4.7	15:09
mgedmin	while qInstallMsgHandler says that the default handler "prints the message to the standard output under X11 "	15:09
mgedmin	yay for self-contradictory documentation	15:09
* mgedmin hates Qt		15:09
chem\|st	has anyone managed to cast sound with pulse? (rtp-sink)	15:09
fcrochik	mgedmin: oh...wait a minute... I think the application that used to work actually "install a handler" and this one doesn't	15:09
fcrochik	mgedmin: so my question should be how do I redirect the stderr ? :)	15:10
mgedmin	2>file.txt	15:10
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fcrochik	mgedmin: great! works like a charm!	15:13
ieatlint	you can also redirect stdout and stderr to the same file with: "./app > output.txt 2>&1" :P	15:13
fcrochik	PaulFertser: thank you. It did the trick...	15:13
PaulFertser	fcrochik: that's unix for you	15:13
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fcrochik	PaulFertser: great! I will add to the belt... sure it will be handy many times	15:15
PaulFertser	fcrochik: "man sed" is even more useful	15:17
ZogG	hey	15:19
ruskie	omg... managed to save my install through meego	15:19
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crashanddie	"A private telecom firm took high speed Internet facilities to the top of the world on Thursday when it launched Nepal's first 3G services at the base camp of Mount Everest."	15:29
* crashanddie predicts future tweets: "LOL, Took this picture at top of Evrst with new White #iPhone 4"		15:30
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fcrochik	PaulFertser: not on the n900 :)	15:31
PaulFertser	fcrochik: one of the first things i did is apt-got the manpages and the man toolset.	15:32
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mgedmin	so, anybody tried meego 1.1 on the n900 yet?	15:33
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phellarv	mgedmin: Yes	15:33
mgedmin	is it fast?	15:33
phellarv	mgedmin: HAHAHA - No.	15:34
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pigeon	anyone knows where i could download this package? http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_ssu_pr1-2_armel/libgles1-sgx-img/0.20091104.34+0m5/	15:34
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phellarv	mgedmin: Perhaps with a Class 12 MicroSD...	15:34
Venemo	goodbye guys	15:34
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Scelt	phellarv and mgedmin: the first boot is slow	15:34
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phellarv	Scelt: Slow first boot is expected, but the UI and user experience feels sluggish.	15:35
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Scelt	a little but don't think it's about the sd speed	15:36
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phellarv	Scelt: You got a class 6 or better?	15:36
Scelt	6	15:36
phellarv	Mmm - class 2 is slooooow.	15:36
phryk	What is the grps/gsm device's name in /dev ?	15:36
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alterego	phryk: I don't think there is one	15:41
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alterego	maybe ttyGS?	15:42
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phryk	don't have ttyGS, just tty, tty0-63 and ttyS0-3	15:43
flux	do I break my system if change user's shell to bash or zsh?	15:43
phryk	nope i don't think so	15:43
phryk	user:!:29999:29999::/home/user:/bin/bash	15:44
phryk	from /etc/passwd	15:44
phryk	still works for me	15:44
flux	so now it's a matter of only compiling zsh for it, because it appears not to have it :) (unless bash suffices)	15:44
flux	phryk, great, thanks!	15:44
phryk	no problem	15:44
flux	phryk, do you have package bash or bash3 installed?	15:45
phryk	from what i have heard, zsh is pure bullshit, codewise	15:45
flux	well, my miles-long initialization files are for zsh ;)	15:45
flux	fortunately I haven't taken a look at its source	15:45
phryk	bash3	15:45
jacekowski	zsh is for sad people	15:45
phryk	Mh	15:45
jacekowski	i used to use it	15:45
flux	zsh has for example approximate path completion, which I imagine could be nice on n900	15:46
phryk	Why does the filemanager take the name set for the bluetooth as the name of the device, instead of the hostname?^^	15:46
jacekowski	phryk: because hostname is always maemo	15:46
phryk	jacekowski: nope?^^	15:47
phryk	hostname for me was "Nokia-N900" or so, and I changed it…	15:47
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slonopotamus	~pr1.3	15:50
infobot	pr1.3 is probably the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/10/25/new-nokia-n900-software-update-available/ -- see ~flashing for how to update, or http://repository.maemo.org/stable/fremantle/Maemo_5_SDK_Release_Notes_v1_7_en.txt, or http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-26.log.html#t2010-10-26T03:02:54	15:50
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mgedmin	zsh has a bunch of nifty stuff, and lacks a different bunch of nifty stuff that I'm used to, from bash	15:50
mgedmin	zsh drives me mad	15:50
MohammadAG	jacekowski, hostname is /etc/hostname	15:51
MohammadAG	I have it changed	15:51
pupnik	http://slack.net/~ant/info/rgb_clamped_sub.html clamped 15-bit color subtraction	15:51
flux	mgedmin, so, basically, zsh isn't bash..	15:51
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mgedmin	flux, more precisely, zsh is not a superset of bash	15:52
mgedmin	I think zsh is a clone/fork/descendant of ksh	15:53
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flashn_	its more like the other way around	15:53
mgedmin	heh	15:53
flux	well, bash has been busy adding features as well. maybe it's been good for zsh to simply atleast exist	15:53
flux	at the time when bash was at 2.0, zsh had all kinds of cool stuff	15:53
mgedmin	zsh still has cool stuff	15:54
flux	but I don't really know what bash nowadays has	15:54
mgedmin	lots of different cool stuff	15:54
mgedmin	;)	15:54
mgedmin	maybe less cool than zsh	15:54
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flux	well, it's not cool if it's in bash. you know, it's the defacto 'vanilla' shell of linux distributions ;-)	15:55
mgedmin	some things (like putting the name of the running command in xterm title) are _painful_ to do in bash	15:55
mgedmin	bash-completion eats 600ms on startup	15:55
mgedmin	then again I just measured that zsh also eats 600ms on startup for something	15:56
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MohammadAG	lol bshno_highlight	15:58
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pupnik	we found a great pixel-shader algo. who can get it running on n900?	16:00
pupnik	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM3WWurYmLw	16:00
pupnik	(sgx)	16:00
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pupnik	aha! clamping integers without conditionals http://bob.allegronetwork.com/prog/tricks.html#clamp	16:11
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rmrfchik	mobilehotspot want kernel-power. is it safe for PR1.3?	16:13
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jacekowski	phryk: yeah, but you are not a "normal" user	16:23
jacekowski	phryk: you can change it, but name that can be changed from gui is only bluetooth name	16:23
phryk	Ah okay	16:23
phryk	are there… "normal" maemo users?^^	16:23
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crashanddie	anyone fancy a "Ironette", female iron man costume for halloween?	16:26
crashanddie	http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/69913.jpg?zm=1200,1200,1,0,0	16:26
crashanddie	or a bumblebee transformers chick costume? http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/69902.jpg?zm=1200,1200,1,0,0	16:27
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stef_204	hi guys, quick question re. email client in maemo 5 20.2010.36-2 on N900. The default email client always downloads the full body of email AND any attachments	16:29
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stef_204	which is a drag on people that have a plan based on data quantity per month	16:30
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stef_204	anyone knows if 1) can change any settings to make it only download header until email is requested/selected? OR 2) another email client that could be used which wold not have this behavior?	16:31
stef_204	I tried using "Claws" but still too much in early development and not working well	16:31
stef_204	I am talking about IMAP btw	16:31
phryk	If you are not gui-dependant, you could setup an account with mutt on your machine home and just ssh in there	16:33
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phryk	But curses usability is… limited with the little keyboard	16:33
mgedmin	so it's good that most mutt commands are alphabet-based	16:34
mgedmin	j/k etc.	16:34
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mgedmin	<enter> being <esc>OM in osso-xterm mucks things up a bit	16:34
mgedmin	ctrl-j is not a snice	16:34
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psYchotic	good day everyone	16:36
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stef_204	phryk: too complex for me, i'd have to ssh in there all the time, the home machine not always on, etc.	16:36
psYchotic	I have a question: is there any reason why I don't get a message telling me I can update to PR1.3?	16:36
psYchotic	I've checked for updates for the past couple of days, but I don't get PR1.3	16:37
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phryk	stef_204: nothing else coming to my mind, sory	16:37
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stef_204	phryk: fine--there's got to ba a solution--hopefully not hacking in source code of default email client	16:38
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mgedmin	psYchotic, firmware updates to some locales (especially UK) have been delayed	16:40
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psYchotic	mgedmin: aha, perhaps that's why	16:41
psYchotic	any reason why it would be delayed for some locales?	16:41
mgedmin	nokian's haven't built/debugged them yet, would be my guess	16:41
mgedmin	eek, what's that apo'strophe doing there in my 'sentence?	16:42
psYchotic	right'	16:42
psYchotic	it's kinda weird though, what kind of differences are there really between US and UK locales?	16:42
psYchotic	I'm not even sure what locale my N900's setup for	16:43
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ebzzry	ruskie: Are you there?	16:44
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Jef91	Anyone here use dropn900 (for dropbox)?	17:14
Jef91	I installed it yesterday and it refuses to load for me	17:15
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Jef91	It starts to load when I press the icon and then it just crashes out	17:15
MohammadAG51	run it from terminal	17:15
Myrtti	that is always a good start if it's available	17:18
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Jef91	what is the command mohammadAG51?	17:21
Jef91	I went to do that but "dropn900" is not a command :-/	17:21
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MohammadAG51	idk, don't have it, it's probably in /opt/drop something	17:22
MohammadAG51	use tab	17:22
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Jef91	wonderful just a general seg fault when I run it :-/	17:26
Jef91	odds are pr1.3 broke it	17:26
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Jef91	drat! it was terribly useful too :-/	17:27
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alecjw	hi, how can i make my media player update my library? at the moment, its only registering my MP3 files	17:30
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DocScrutinizer	hahaha, I love Adobe. Reliably gives my my monthly WTF: http://www.adobe.com/support/security/advisories/apsa10-05.html	17:35
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Venemo_N900	hi	17:35
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MohammadAG51	hey	17:38
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: nice!	17:39
Venemo_N900	~botsnack	17:40
infobot	Venemo_N900: aw, gee	17:40
DocScrutinizer	alecjw: please elaborate	17:40
alecjw	DocScrutinizer, only my mp3 audio files show up in the media player. the vorbis files dont. i have vorbis extentions installed and i can play them if i search for them via the file browser	17:42
DocScrutinizer	alecjw: "update" is done by tracker-daemon, not by mediaplayer.	17:42
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alecjw	it worked perfectly until last night, when i upgraded the maemo OS	17:42
alecjw	sudo /etc/init.d/tracker-daemon restart or something then?	17:42
DocScrutinizer	hmm, delete or copy or rename one single file there, it should trigger trackerd to recreate index	17:43
MohammadAG51	reinstall decoders-support	17:43
MohammadAG51	or rerun the postinst	17:43
DocScrutinizer	o.O	17:44
DocScrutinizer	I hate trackerd! DIE! crap, BURN IN HELL!	17:44
MohammadAG51	alecjw, /var/lib/dpkg/info/decoders-support.postinst	17:45
MohammadAG51	as root	17:45
Venemo_N900	~burn trackerd, because DocScrutinizer hates you!	17:45
* infobot pours gasoline all over trackerd, because DocScrutinizer hates you!, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze		17:45
Venemo_N900	heh	17:46
kerio	~nuke trackerd	17:47
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at trackerd ... B☢☢M!		17:47
kerio	~nuke pulseaudio	17:47
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at pulseaudio ... B☢☢M!		17:47
kerio	OH SHIT I CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING	17:47
Venemo_N900	kerio: on my device, nothing's wrong with PA	17:47
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Venemo_N900	kerio: I dunno what you have against it	17:49
kerio	takes more cpu than the decoding of the mp3	17:49
Venemo_N900	how can you tell that?	17:50
kerio	huh... top	17:50
Venemo_N900	on my device, cpu usage is on the min when playing mp3s	17:50
kerio	meh, it could be because i'm using a2dp	17:50
alecjw	DocScrutinizer, MohammadAG, still nothing. but i have to go now. thanks for your help, ill try again later	17:51
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Venemo_N900	also, the cpu is not supposed to decode 'em, there's a dsp for that	17:51
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crashanddie	Venemo_N900, only if it makes sense	17:52
Venemo_N900	maybe a2dp is what takes your cpu, kerio	17:52
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Venemo_N900	crashanddie: what do you mean makes sense?	17:52
kerio	1/0 never makes sense	17:53
kerio	sqrt(-1) makes sense, some times	17:53
Venemo_N900	kerio: sqrt(-1) = i	17:53
kerio	Venemo_N900: which doesn't exist on the real axis	17:54
kerio	that's why i said "some times"	17:54
Venemo_N900	kerio: yeah :)	17:54
_trine	I just tried the Nokia BH-905 Stereo Bluetooth Headphones	17:54
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_trine	they are very good	17:54
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kerio	i'm using a pair of sony bt headphones	17:55
kerio	good battery life, good sound	17:55
_trine	the Nokia BH-905 with noise cancelling is fantastic	17:56
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_trine	even with no music if I switch on noise cancelling the computer fan noise from my computer completely disappears	17:57
_trine	and silence reigns	17:57
Venemo_N900	_trine: sounds nice	17:57
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_trine	and the range of the BT is impressive	17:58
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_trine	before I tried them I was worried the sound over BT would be crap,,, I was wrong	17:59
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GNU\caustic	hi! i'm trying to update by running apt-get upgrade, but it spits out a list of >1000 packages which are held back. i cannot figure out why they are held back though.	18:01
* DocScrutinizer glares at http://projects.gnome.org/tracker/features.html... BURP		18:01
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hrw	Venemo_N900: I prefer sqrt(-1) to be 'j' then 'i'	18:02
andre__	don't use apt-get upgrade...	18:02
Venemo_N900	hrw: why?	18:02
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Venemo_N900	andre__: why not?	18:03
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GNU\caustic	how should i update then without reflashing or using the nokia suite?	18:03
Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: over the air	18:03
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Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: what's the problem with reflashin?	18:04
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andre__	Venemo_N900: it's not supported, it's not tested, it circumvents h-a-m checks, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6014#c5	18:04
povbot	Bug 6014: apt-get upgrade can result in non-bootable device	18:04
GNU\caustic	i don't have a bigger interest in reconfiguring and reinstalling stuff	18:04
hrw\|uds	Venemo_N900: "i" is used my mathematics. 'j' is used by electrotechnics because for us 'i' is other thing already	18:04
DocScrutinizer	isn't it strange how it turns out tracker starts with a g? I should have known, by the hate I feel for trackerd, it can not be anything else than g	18:05
Venemo_N900	andre__: well it has always worked for me	18:05
* hrw\|uds upgraded to pr1.3 with apt-get but I would not say that it was easy ;D		18:05
Venemo_N900	hrw\|uds: yeah, I heard about that	18:05
Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: does SSU work for you?	18:06
hrw\|uds	Venemo_N900: so "2+i3" is "w+3j"	18:06
hrw\|uds	Venemo_N900: so "2+i3" is "2+3j"	18:06
GNU\caustic	why can't stupid apt-get tell why it holds back packages?	18:06
DocScrutinizer	is there any locale on this earth where g=w ?	18:06
DocScrutinizer	as it seams gnome shit always been the poor clone of windows philosophy	18:06
Venemo_N900	hrw\|uds: as I'm gonna be an electronic engineer myself, could you tell me what you use i for?	18:07
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: why? kde isn't?	18:07
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hrw\|uds	Venemo_N900: I do not remember now after all those years. temporary amperage?	18:07
mgedmin	DocScrutinizer: you're absolutely right, except it's KDE that clones Windows; GNOME tends to clone Mac OS X	18:07
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N900: has KDE an abomination like gconf?	18:08
Venemo_N900	hrw\|uds: I dunno, this is my first year in uni	18:08
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: I dunno of its inner workings	18:08
DocScrutinizer	where gconf is an exact copy of registry	18:08
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* mgedmin ♥ gconf		18:09
mgedmin	what's the icon for hate?	18:09
hrw\|uds	DocScrutinizer: KDE uses .ini style files	18:09
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: but at least, when I tried both, I liked gnome's ux more	18:09
DocScrutinizer	lately somebody started wining as he couldn't make gnome edit .desktop files X-P	18:09
DocScrutinizer	hrw\|uds: I know	18:09
Venemo_N900	x-p=?	18:10
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GNU\caustic	Venemo_N900: whats SSU? :)	18:11
hrw\|uds	~ssu	18:11
infobot	rumour has it, ssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU	18:11
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Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: seamless software update	18:12
GNU\caustic	yeah, that one doesn't work	18:12
GNU\caustic	it wants to be connected to the nokia suite	18:12
Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: why not?	18:12
GNU\caustic	don't have a nokia suite	18:12
mgedmin	GNU\caustic, there's a library, something opengl-related, that prevents SSU upgrades	18:13
mgedmin	if you remove apps that depend on that library (e.g. CloudGPS), you can then upgrade	18:13
Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: you misunderstand	18:14
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N900: ask maemo conversations, maybe it gives you an emoticon for XP next to the one for :-P	18:14
Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: it is done by the N900's os automatically	18:14
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: aaaah...	18:14
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: :)	18:14
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Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: ssu is ssu because it doesn't need an external software or computer for it	18:15
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Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: you must have enough space on the rootfs and you must not have package conflicts though	18:16
GNU\caustic	the update thing pops up a dialog telling that it wants to be connected to the nokia suite	18:16
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johnsq	Hi	18:16
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Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: it tells you that because you have either package conflicts or not enough space on rootfs	18:17
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GNU\caustic	a brilliant error message	18:17
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Venemo_N900	well it is intended for users who don't know what these things mean	18:17
Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: bring up a root terminal and type 'df -h', then please tell us how much space you got on your rootsf	18:18
Venemo_N900	rootfs*	18:18
mgedmin	when I didn't have enough free space, the app manager told me so	18:18
mgedmin	so "you must use pc suite" must mean you've got packaging conflicts	18:18
Venemo_N900	'df -h \| grep rootfs'	18:18
mgedmin	am I wrong? have things changed in later versions?	18:18
GNU\caustic	i uninstalled the gles thing and trying again	18:18
Venemo_N900	mgedmin: well I dunno, maybe you're right	18:19
GNU\caustic	i guess it works, its starting to download now	18:19
Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: hooray :)	18:19
SpeedEvil	Anyone in the UK with n900 and t-mo? Specifically if you've opted into orange network - do you get it appearing as 'orange' ?	18:19
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: ?	18:22
DocScrutinizer	how can you opt in to orange?	18:23
SpeedEvil	t-mo/orange merger in the UK	18:23
DocScrutinizer	o.O	18:23
SpeedEvil	you can opt in on a per phone basis by texting	18:23
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DocScrutinizer	there are (at least) 3 sources for network name: a table with netcode->name tupels in OS/cellmo, an name written to SIM config, and a short and long name coming OTA	18:24
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DocScrutinizer	sometimes, on some phones during sign-in, you see all three popping up in sequence	18:27
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DocScrutinizer	like "Vodafone"->"O2"->"Loop"	18:28
SpeedEvil	I suppose I should check syslog	18:28
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DocScrutinizer	for what?	18:29
DocScrutinizer	to check if you roamed to another network? use netmon	18:29
DocScrutinizer	to find out about your accounting details? ask interwebs	18:30
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MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer, how do i find powerhogs, as you call them	18:34
MohammadAG51	my battery's getting raped	18:34
MohammadAG51	powertop?	18:34
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DocScrutinizer	yep	18:34
DocScrutinizer	plus SpeedEvil incredible invaluable wiki pages on the topic	18:34
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pupnik	o2 seems to work ok for me in .de	18:35
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DocScrutinizer	err, yes. Why shouldn't it?	18:35
iksaif	PaulFertser: I think I found the bug :)	18:35
PaulFertser	iksaif: really?	18:36
PaulFertser	;)	18:36
iksaif	in QtLocation liblocationwrapper.cpp	18:36
iksaif	they use a flag	18:36
iksaif	locationState	18:36
PaulFertser	Yes, seen that	18:36
iksaif	to see if the service is started	18:36
Venemo_N900	iksaif: what bug?	18:36
iksaif	but .. the flag is not set to 0	18:36
iksaif	when the class is constructed	18:36
DocScrutinizer	hahahahaHAHA	18:36
iksaif	so .. sometime the var is 0, sometime it's just some random crap	18:36
PaulFertser	iksaif: lol, i assumed it's some static variable.	18:36
iksaif	it's a member of LiblocationWrapper	18:37
DocScrutinizer	noob oops	18:37
iksaif	so it may works with some apps because they have some memory pattern that make this flag be 0 on load	18:37
PaulFertser	iksaif: if you have that "scratchbox" shit handy, feel free to ask me to test your recompiled package for that.	18:37
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* DocScrutinizer still wonders why there isn't a SPANK function in gcc for fools using vars right side before left side		18:38
iksaif	I think I'll fill a bug repport first	18:38
iksaif	I hop this will be fixed soon :/	18:38
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PaulFertser	iksaif: well, for the testing purposes it might worth to build a custom package. Also probably that bugreport will be there waiting for the devs for months, but you'd be able to provide a fixed version in extras-devel already.	18:39
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GNU\caustic	"operating system successfully updated" \o/	18:40
Venemo_N900	GNU\caustic: hooray! :)	18:40
iksaif	PaulFertser: the fix has to be made in QtMobility anyway, I can't fix it in my app right ?	18:40
iksaif	you mean, a custom qtm-location package ?	18:41
PaulFertser	iksaif: sure you can't that's what i'm talking about.	18:41
Venemo_N900	iksaif: even if they fix it tomorrow, the fix will only be in the next fw upgrade... :(	18:41
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iksaif	PaulFertser: so what should I do ? provide a custom qtm-location package ?	18:43
iksaif	how to make such a package available in extra-devel/extra-testing ?	18:43
PaulFertser	iksaif: yes, to me for testing first :)	18:44
iksaif	(and could anyone confirm my guess before I fill a bug report ? see http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/master/src/location/liblocationwrapper_p.h / http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/master/src/location/liblocationwrapper.cpp and locationState variable)	18:44
PaulFertser	iksaif: i'm sure the folks here know the answer, i'm totally clueless about all this maemo distro business.	18:44
iksaif	ok, I'll do that	18:44
iksaif	are you always on the chan ?	18:44
PaulFertser	iksaif: (ah, so it's even in the master 1.2 branch, heh)	18:44
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PaulFertser	iksaif: I might quit any second as i'm not comfortable being here, but i'm almost always on freenode, so just ``/query PaulFertser'' whenever you feel like.	18:45
iksaif	ok, great	18:46
iksaif	thanks for your help btw,	18:46
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rblank	Hello everyone. I see a system update is available on my N900. Any issues I need to be careful with? My device hasn't been "heavily" hacked.	18:47
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PaulFertser	iksaif: lol, even basic gdb knowledge seems to be somewhat the majority of this > 500 members lack, i'm glad i was of help.	18:47
mgedmin	rblank, no, no issues; creating a backup is recommended on general principles	18:48
ruskie	PaulFertser, why aren't you comfortable around here?	18:49
Venemo_N900	nah guys, goodbye now :)	18:49
iksaif	PaulFertser: do you confirm that the bug is related to the flag not being set ?	18:50
rblank	mgedmin: Thanks.	18:50
PaulFertser	ruskie: if this is not another attempt to drag me into argument for some folk's lulz, please query in private, i'll explain.	18:50
PaulFertser	iksaif: it looks very much like that, this flag is something i've thought about myself but somehow i decided its getting cleared somewhere.	18:50
iksaif	PaulFertser: instead of doing a new build, maybe you could set the flag to zero by hand using gdb	18:51
iksaif	adding a breakpoint in LibLocationWrapper::inited()	18:51
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PaulFertser	iksaif: i'll try in few minutes.	18:52
iksaif	if you have the time to do so of course	18:52
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rblank	How can I convince my N900 to do the system update without the "Nokia PC Suite"?	18:54
Venemo_N900	rblank: get rid of the dependency problems, make enough room on rootfs	18:55
madduck	~pr1.3	18:55
infobot	from memory, pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/10/25/new-nokia-n900-software-update-available/ -- see ~flashing for how to update, or http://repository.maemo.org/stable/fremantle/Maemo_5_SDK_Release_Notes_v1_7_en.txt, or http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-26.log.html#t2010-10-26T03:02:54	18:55
mgedmin	rblank, make sure you've enough free disk space in your rootfs, and remove any conflicting packages	18:55
mgedmin	e.g. try apt-get remove libgles1-sgx-img	18:56
rblank	Rootfs has 69M room. I assume that's not enough?	18:56
rblank	How do you find conflicting packages?	18:56
MohammadAG51	it is i think	18:56
MohammadAG51	apt-get --dist-upgrade	18:57
MohammadAG51	see what it says, then ctrl+c	18:57
rblank	The size of the update was given as 83M	18:57
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mgedmin	69M is plenty of space	18:57
rblank	# apt-get --dist-upgrade	18:57
rblank	E: Sense dist is not understood, try true or false.	18:57
GNUtoo\|laptop	hi, in supertux for maemo there is that in the changelog:	18:57
mgedmin	apt-get dist-upgrade failed to give me any useful information	18:57
mgedmin	people on this channel suggested apt-get remove libgles1-sgx-img, which helped	18:58
GNUtoo\|laptop	supertux-stable (0.1.3-1.1maemo6) stable; urgency=low * Enable access to the pause menu using SDLK_BACKSPACE and touching the screen	18:58
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GNUtoo\|laptop	how do I extract a patch of that	18:58
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rblank	apt-get dist-upgrade gives me lists of packages that will be removed, installed, and upgraded.	18:59
PaulFertser	iksaif: btw, i do not exactly like /opt/lugdugov/bin/ for the binary, that seems inconsistent and violating usual pathname policies.	18:59
rblank	45MB of additional space will be used. That seems ok. Nothing about dependencies, though.	19:00
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mgedmin	PaulFertser, have you read the FHS?	19:00
mgedmin	"Programs to be invoked by users must be located in the directory /opt/<package>/bin"	19:01
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PaulFertser	mgedmin: yes.	19:01
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PaulFertser	mgedmin: ah, ok, let it be so. I'm not sure how i'm supposed to add all those to PATH tough.	19:01
mgedmin	good question	19:01
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rblank	"apt-get check" says that everything is ok.	19:02
mgedmin	symlinks like /usr/bin/progname -> /opt/package/bin/progname ?	19:02
iksaif	mgedmin: the program is launched using the application/<package>.desktop which specify the absolute binary path	19:03
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iksaif	but it's not really clean ..	19:03
mgedmin	why do you say so?	19:03
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iksaif	oups PaulFertser not mgedmin	19:03
iksaif	sorry	19:03
PaulFertser	iksaif: i prefer when i can start programs easily from my shell prompt.	19:03
mgedmin	so do I	19:04
mgedmin	but maemo doesn't make that easy	19:04
iksaif	me too, I should add a symlink maybe	19:04
iksaif	but it's maemo rules :p	19:04
mgedmin	all those dbus-jumping hoops to make startup faster/etc.	19:04
iksaif	you can install lugdulov on your std linux box if you want, it will be in /usr/bin :)	19:04
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wazd	Heya all	19:05
PaulFertser	iksaif: mgedmin read http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html and it's written "Packages may provide "front-end" files intended to be placed in [/opt/bin]"	19:05
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iksaif	hum PaulFertser I think they tought the flag would be zeroed because the instance is allocated using Q_GLOBAL_STATIC	19:10
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iksaif	but when threads are enabled	19:10
Chani	anyone remember what the problem was with getting a data plan for an n900?	19:10
iksaif	Q_GLOBAL_STATIC call new	19:10
iksaif	and doesn't use a real static var	19:10
iksaif	(which would be zeroed)	19:10
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* Chani remembers there being some sort of problem in canada, and is hoping it doesn't apply to european networks		19:11
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PaulFertser	iksaif: btw, zeroing it in debugger is not exactly easy, i've no debug packages for it installed.	19:12
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iksaif	ah	19:13
Jucato	Chani: dare I repeat dfaure's reply in here :)	19:13
iksaif	hum right	19:13
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Jucato	oh wait, wrong channel lol	19:13
PaulFertser	iksaif: i'll try in assembyl though, doesn't seem too hard.	19:13
iksaif	the var should be on the stack .. somewhere :p	19:13
iksaif	hum	19:13
iksaif	on the heap	19:13
iksaif	if it was on the stack, it would be zeroed	19:14
iksaif	(static storage is on the stack right ?)	19:14
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TiagoTiago	hi	19:15
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mgedmin	afair static storage is in the bss section (neither stack nor heap), and is zeroed on startup	19:16
TiagoTiago	I forgot, where do i find the setting for which connections can be connected automaticly?	19:16
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PaulFertser	iksaif: yes, helps here. Need gdb log?	19:17
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TiagoTiago_	oops	19:18
iksaif	PaulFertser: yep please	19:18
iksaif	need to go, but I'll get the log later in my irc logs	19:19
iksaif	thanks for your help	19:19
iksaif	See http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTMOBILITY-646 for the reported issue	19:19
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PaulFertser	iksaif: http://paste.debian.net/98658/	19:21
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MohammadAG51	Sigh, so many Internal errors	19:31
MohammadAG51	on 1.3	19:32
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TiagoTiago	I forgot, where do i find the setting for which connections can be connected automaticly?	19:41
chem\|st	TiagoTiago: GUI or shell?	19:41
chem\|st	and are you looking for the general setting autoconnection?	19:42
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TiagoTiago	on the N900	19:43
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TiagoTiago	it was a file somewhere i think	19:43
chem\|st	what a surprise in #maemo	19:43
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chem\|st	gconf	19:43
ShadowJK	settings - internet?	19:44
chem\|st	for GUI ^^	19:44
TiagoTiago	I'm looking for this list that had the connections that shhould be connected when avaiable (or perhaps it was the opposite, the connecttions that shouldn't be connected automaticly)	19:44
chem\|st	TiagoTiago: I honestly don"t know which of all the connection settings you are looking for	19:44
TiagoTiago	i remember learning about it when i was reading somthing about creating "dummy" connections	19:45
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DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: there's a "autoconnect to WLAN if available"	19:46
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ShadowJK	that's switch to wlan	19:46
DocScrutinizer	and AIUI it will use all the WLANs you previously used and thus configured	19:46
TiagoTiago	i'm looking for the setting for individual connections	19:46
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DocScrutinizer	I'm in doubt there's such a setting	19:47
MohammadAG51	hmm	19:47
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MohammadAG51	i get a weird vibration when i click the calendar widget	19:48
TiagoTiago	you can use that setting to prevent dummy connections and adhoc from autoconnecting	19:48
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TiagoTiago	it's cursed	19:48
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* MohammadAG51 ponders if the community SSU should hold latest stock or latest stock + matan patches		19:50
TiagoTiago	whats the point in having a comunity SSU if its just the same as the manufacturer's ?	19:51
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: if not both then matan	19:51
rblank	Ooh, the "Updating" tab of the "Application details" for the update actually tells which package conflicts. Here it was "libqt4-test", installed by PyQt4. Uninstalling the latter allows the upgrade to proceed.	19:52
TiagoTiago	btw, what about the improvements avaiable n the power kernel?	19:52
MohammadAG51	TiagoTiago, PR1.3 has old packages	19:52
MohammadAG51	i won't try to add kernel-power, it change too many things from stock	19:53
MohammadAG51	while mhd is pretty much the same if not configured	19:53
chem\|st	TiagoTiago: gconftool-2 -a /system/osso/connectivity/network_type	19:53
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MohammadAG51	X-Fade, does the SSU allow community patches like Matan's?	19:54
MohammadAG51	they're very stable	19:54
DocScrutinizer	all the power to mhd until it actually ats up and breaks anything	19:54
DocScrutinizer	acts*	19:54
MohammadAG51	it's	19:54
TiagoTiago	how do i use that to define which connections can and can't autoconnect?	19:54
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DocScrutinizer	gconftool c'mon it's self explaining XP	19:55
TiagoTiago	:(	19:56
DocScrutinizer	~nuke g*	19:56
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at g* ... B☢☢M!		19:56
MohammadAG51	gnome ftw	19:56
chem\|st	TiagoTiago: you set it vie settings->internet connections->connect automatically	19:56
DocScrutinizer	#DEFINE tracker gtracker	19:56
DocScrutinizer	~nuke g*	19:56
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at g* ... B☢☢M!		19:56
ZogG	DocScrutinizer do you want it to come?	19:58
chem\|st	values are empty for no auto, WLAN_INFRA for wifi, * for any and GPRS for mobile inet	19:58
ZogG	that you point all your missles to G dot =)	19:58
* DocScrutinizer gets nostalgic about the times where real hackers and not gnomes coded real unix tools		19:58
TiagoTiago	that setting doesn't deal with individual connections	19:58
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DocScrutinizer	not to say KDE4 is any better	20:00
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* MohammadAG tries unity		20:01
MohammadAG	brb	20:01
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DocScrutinizer	MUHAHA >> --break-key Torture-test an application by setting and unsetting a bunch of values of different types for keys on the command line.	20:02
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DocScrutinizer	from man gconftool-2 XP	20:03
ZogG	gnome sucks as kde	20:03
RST38h	kde sucks as gnome too, no doubt	20:03
DocScrutinizer	noooo, it is master of sucking	20:03
MohammadAG	unity's nice, for a low res screen	20:04
MohammadAG	meh-y on a full size laptop	20:04
DocScrutinizer	gnomes are windows kinks that thought "We can do THAT, on linux"	20:05
MohammadAG	that's kde :P	20:06
RST38h	Doc: Same goes for kde people	20:06
MohammadAG	KDE4 looks like windows 7	20:06
RST38h	As to "graphical shells" they suck by definition	20:06
MohammadAG	or windows 7 looks like KDE4	20:06
DocScrutinizer	nope, KDE was an alternative for cde, and it had none of the windows principles under the hood when they started	20:06
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RST38h	Replacing functional desktop metaphore with crappy menu systems	20:07
RST38h	Doc: yea, right	20:07
DocScrutinizer	then original team abandoned ship, and KDE4 jumped in, which is another bunch of... beeep	20:07
DocScrutinizer	gnome was invented when people thought KDE2 wasn't windowish enough for them	20:08
DocScrutinizer	too complex, too configurable, too few requesters and wizards	20:09
DocScrutinizer	so they invented gnome	20:09
DocScrutinizer	that's history as I like to think about it	20:10
* RST38h uses gnome		20:10
DocScrutinizer	dunno if it's all the facts	20:10
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RST38h	Whatever you like to think of history, it is a bit different :)	20:10
sivang	KDE has gone a long way,I think it is a much of a saner choice for folks who want to really use their computers to fullest	20:11
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RST38h	allyou need is google for "gnome wiki" and read the history section	20:11
DocScrutinizer	sivang: has been true until and excluding KDE4	20:11
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sivang	DocScrutinizer: what happened there?	20:14
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sivang	I've recently checked what it give on a desktop, so sure you need fairly strong machine to carry it	20:14
sivang	but everybody are doing this, including ubuntu wuth UNity limiting users to have acelerated graphics support	20:14
DocScrutinizer	sivang: KDE4 is a stinking pile of segfaulting shit, as they did a complete rewrite it seems	20:14
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GNUtoo\|laptop	hmmm	20:15
GNUtoo\|laptop	DocScrutinizer, hi	20:16
GNUtoo\|laptop	oops	20:16
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GNUtoo\|laptop	wrong channel	20:16
DocScrutinizer	hi nevertheless	20:16
sivang	DocScrutinizer: hmm, isn't this a bit harsh ;) ?	20:16
RST38h	Seattle investigators have discovered a cache of heavy explosives beneath a new cruise ship terminal.	20:16
TiagoTiago	what would happen if i tried installing ofono on the N900?	20:17
derf	Chaos in the streets. Dogs and cats, living together.	20:17
TiagoTiago	were there also fuses or the explosives were just stored there?	20:17
maybeArgh	oh yeh mighty n900 community	20:18
maybeArgh	what's a good bluetooth headset for a cheapskate like myself?	20:18
TiagoTiago	s/fuse/detonator/	20:18
infobot	TiagoTiago meant: were there also detonators or the explosives were just stored there?	20:18
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SpeedEvil	np: It ain't heavy, it's my C4.	20:22
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iksaif	PaulFertser if you're still here, could you try with : http://xf.iksaif.net/dev/qtm/libqtm-location_1.0.2-maemo4%2b0m5_armel.deb	20:23
sivang	SpeedEvil: hehehe	20:23
PaulFertser	iksaif: sure	20:23
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PaulFertser	iksaif: yep, works here all right.	20:28
iksaif	cool	20:29
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iksaif	I'm going to do a very ugly thing	20:29
iksaif	ship a fixed libQtLocation in /opt/lugdulov/lib/	20:29
iksaif	and LD_LIBRARY_PATH the thing :p	20:29
iksaif	just to lazy to link it statically	20:29
TiagoTiago	i'm seeing ofono avaiable in Synaptic, will it mes things up if i ttry installing it on my N900?	20:31
lcuk	iksaif, have you offered a bug/patch/MR to fix the issue upstream?	20:31
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sjk	i bought a n900 today!	20:32
jacktheripper	does multiboot support btrfs ?	20:32
TiagoTiago	yay! :D	20:32
iksaif	lcuk: I'm doing it	20:32
jacktheripper	congrats! xD	20:32
lcuk	:) iksaif great stuff	20:33
iksaif	bug report sent, mail with patch sent to .deb maintainers, merge request will be sent later.	20:33
sjk	spent twenty minutes talking to the guy in the shop... got a 170 eur discount :)	20:34
lcuk	which tracker did you file bug with? (link?)	20:34
dsg	jacktheripper: No, FAT16 only (not even FAT32).	20:35
jacktheripper	dsg: multiboot supports ext3..	20:35
dsg	(if by multiboot you mean u-boo)	20:35
iksaif	lcuk: http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTMOBILITY-646	20:36
jacktheripper	dsg: I mean the multiboot package, don't know if it's also called u-boot.	20:36
dsg	jacktheripper: Oh sorry, no, that's something different. Ignore me then. :)	20:36
jacktheripper	dsg: haha np :D	20:36
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TiagoTiago	do i have to change the repos' settings relacing 1.2 with 1.3 when present?	20:37
TiagoTiago	i mean, would there be any benefit in doing that?	20:37
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Aranel	Anyone tried this yet?: http://wiki.maemo.org/Repartitioning_the_flash#Solution_.237:_arbitrary_size_for_.2Fhome_and_MyDocs_.28PR_1.2.2F3_compatible.29	21:02
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MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, I think	21:03
MohammadAG	well, repartitioning /home and MyDocs anyways	21:04
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Aranel	yup, without reflashing, if it works ok =)	21:05
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ruskie	Aranel, I did some similar stuff	21:07
ruskie	/dev/mmcblk0p2 21G 14G 5,8G 71% /home	21:07
ruskie	/dev/mmcblk0p4 3,7G 1002M 2,5G 29% /home/opt	21:08
ruskie	/dev/mmcblk0p1 4,9G 3,0G 1,7G 65% /home/user/MyDocs	21:08
ruskie	:)	21:08
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Aranel	ruskie: so It went good? yay! ^^ Did you do it on a fresh install or "dirty" one?	21:09
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ruskie	Aranel, see solution #3 on that page.. just under it's title ;)	21:10
ruskie	this was more or less the first thing I did when I got the n900	21:10
svuorela	/win 33	21:10
svuorela	fail	21:10
ruskie	and that will be a year in a little over a monh	21:11
ponyofdeath	hi I am getting an pkg error about python2.5-minimal depends on pymaemo-optify any ideas how to fix?	21:11
Aranel	ruskie: If I rsync / from N900 to my Ubuntu box, can I return to it If I brick my precious? :)	21:12
ruskie	Aranel, using this most likely: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/01/making-flashable-rootfss-for-n900.html	21:12
Aranel	ruskie: thank you! ^^	21:12
ruskie	tough that's probably overkill for what you want	21:13
ruskie	unless you have data you want to backup	21:13
Aranel	ruskie: I'm using the same installation from the day I bought N900 (PR1.0 ~ nearly a year ago)	21:14
ruskie	lol	21:14
ruskie	I've reflashed it atleast a dozen time since then	21:14
Aranel	ruskie: so I would be happy to backup some data :P	21:15
ruskie	I should probably do a backup sometime	21:15
Noobmonk3y	wow Aranel !	21:16
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Aranel	ruskie: It's a pretty stable OS. Before N900 I was using Symbian and I reflashed it at least 2 times in 6 months, I didnt do any hacks, anything bad.	21:16
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ruskie	Aranel, yeah mine was heavily hacked first	21:16
ruskie	then with pr1.2 reflash I toned down the hacks	21:16
Aranel	Noobmonk3y: sup? :)	21:16
ruskie	since it's not such a stable OS	21:17
ruskie	it's very very fragile	21:17
ruskie	all the hacks I did on m5 should be survivable on any other distro...	21:17
Noobmonk3y	hehe was just wowing the still on 1.0 part ;) - evvvvening!	21:17
Aranel	ruskie: what about meego rescue initrd? It looks like a solution to "bricked" situations.	21:17
ruskie	Aranel, I used that today ;)	21:17
dRbiG	i'm still suprised that maemo actually holds together :)	21:17
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ruskie	after I forgot to run a depmod for the new kernel ;)	21:18
ruskie	took me most of the day to work it out	21:18
Aranel	Noobmonk3y: nope I'm not on 1.0, upgraded it to 1.1.1, then 1.2 and now 1.3. It's still working ^^	21:18
ruskie	since how to access ubifs is different than the rest	21:18
Noobmonk3y	ahh cool :P	21:18
ruskie	and then had to roll my own busybox with the ubiattach applets as well	21:18
MohammadAG	1.0 is awesome	21:18
MohammadAG	was*	21:19
Samsunix	Eny idea how to get live-wallpaper working on maemo ?	21:19
ruskie	what's that?	21:19
Samsunix	mmm... it's like aero on windows 7 (living wallpaper)	21:19
Noobmonk3y	MohammadAG: Trout 1.0 was better ;)	21:20
Samsunix	android has one	21:20
Aranel	ruskie: It would be great If you write a HOWTO document for it :)	21:20
ruskie	again what's that	21:20
Noobmonk3y	the N900 was just missing gills :(	21:20
GAN900	Samsunix, install Live Wallpaper.	21:20
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Samsunix	mmm...	21:20
ruskie	Aranel, erm? I'm more thinking of providing an initrd and a kernel to be smart enough to restore	21:20
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* MohammadAG wants an electric guitar		21:20
MohammadAG	anyone feel like giving me one? :P	21:20
ruskie	I'm also hoping the new dual-boot method that pr1.3 introduces could be usable there	21:21
MohammadAG	I just a way to write to /dev/mtd5 cleanly	21:21
MohammadAG	then we can flash rootfss on device	21:21
ruskie	??	21:21
Noobmonk3y	:\| ?	21:21
Samsunix	http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/live-wallpaper/ these ?	21:21
Aranel	ruskie: ^^ I hope so.	21:21
Samsunix	shit it's booring	21:21
Samsunix	and dosnt look cool	21:21
Aranel	Samsunix: sorry If I misunderstood you, but why don't you use HAM if you want to install some app? Doesn't it work?	21:22
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MohammadAG	then make uboot boot a recovery OS, that allows me to select an image from a 200MB partition	21:22
Noobmonk3y	ahhh i get it!	21:22
Noobmonk3y	i likies	21:22
Samsunix	aranel it does	21:22
* MohammadAG ponders nand_write		21:22
ruskie	MohammadAG, something like that is what I was thinking...	21:23
Aranel	MohammadAG: I'm a huge fan of you. Just wanted to say it. :D	21:23
MohammadAG	ruskie, I know :P	21:23
ruskie	but I don't know how to do the uboot magic	21:23
MohammadAG	lol fanks :P	21:23
ruskie	that's what I'd like to have first	21:23
MohammadAG	ruskie, make the SD bootable	21:23
ruskie	just to boot into the main OS	21:23
MohammadAG	but that's not a difficulty	21:23
ruskie	basically want a menu to pick an OS	21:24
MohammadAG	writing to the ubifs blocks is harder	21:24
MohammadAG	dd kills em	21:24
ruskie	ubiattach	21:24
* MohammadAG pokes Stskeeps		21:24
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ruskie	mount /dev/ubi0	21:24
ruskie	write to it	21:24
MohammadAG	that's not flashing though is it :P	21:24
MohammadAG	hmm	21:24
MohammadAG	technically	21:25
MohammadAG	err, s/technically/actually/	21:25
MohammadAG	you have a point	21:25
ruskie	:)	21:25
MohammadAG	mount /dev/mtd5, you don't need to attach	21:25
ruskie	you need to attach	21:25
MohammadAG	then tar -xzvf a tar with permissions kept	21:25
ruskie	can't mount it directly	21:25
MohammadAG	ruskie, not on device :)	21:25
MohammadAG	you can	21:25
ruskie	I did it on the device	21:25
ruskie	just today	21:25
ruskie	using meego	21:25
MohammadAG	mount ubi0:rootfs /mnt	21:25
ruskie	yeah... but to get that working you need ubifsattach	21:26
ruskie	else you don't get ubi0	21:26
MohammadAG	interesting	21:26
ruskie	and the meego busybox lacks that	21:26
MohammadAG	i got it on ubuntu 9.10 without using ubiattach	21:26
MohammadAG	kernel differences I suppose	21:26
ruskie	I'd like to make a full blown recovery initrd that one could put on an sdcard to load it through uboot(which I'm assuming one could enter stuff)	21:27
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ruskie	but the uboot kernel should be on the device	21:28
MohammadAG	or on the SD card	21:28
ruskie	I don't want it there... atleast not as primary	21:28
MohammadAG	why? uboot boots the kernel from SD	21:28
ruskie	I want the choice of SD or internal	21:28
ruskie	in uboot	21:29
* MohammadAG wonders how xchat plugins work		21:29
mgedmin	MohammadAG, badly	21:29
mgedmin	on every xchat startup on my laptop I get an error from a plugin: xchat_print called without a valid context.	21:30
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MohammadAG	mgedmin, works quite well :P	21:31
Myrtti	irssi ftw ♥	21:31
MohammadAG	I guess it depends on the script	21:31
Myrtti	I've tried using xchat couple of times	21:31
* mgedmin tried learning irssi a couple of times, felt too old for that		21:31
Myrtti	I usually end up wanting to stab something, and am happy to have my irssi back	21:31
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* MohammadAG felt too young for irssi :P		21:33
MohammadAG	it annoyed me in some places	21:33
Myrtti	http://irssi.org/themefiles/dark_winter.png pink ♥	21:33
* MohammadAG keeps forgetting you're a she lol		21:34
ruskie	lol	21:34
ruskie	http://ruskie.codemages.net/scry/index.php/view/44/misc/screen1.png <-- that's mine same one for years	21:34
mgedmin	ruskie, is that a horrible font, or a horribly scaled image?	21:35
ruskie	mgedmin, click on the link under the image	21:35
slonopotamus	Myrtti: ubuntu-offtopi ?!	21:35
slonopotamus	ah, channel name	21:35
Myrtti	slonopotamus: yes, from years gone by	21:36
RST38h	mooo heffalump, myrtti	21:36
RST38h	mgedmin too	21:36
Myrtti	moooo	21:37
* slonopotamus mumbles incomprehensively		21:39
* RST38h notices that other people present are not old enough farts to compare		21:39
Myrtti	a bit bored, considering continuing on the biography of Alfred Nobel, tipping my toes in some coding or getting a döner	21:39
RST38h	ircii, inside ssh, green-on-black, no colors or highlighting support	21:40
Myrtti	RST38h: tried that. Wasn't too much fun	21:40
* RST38h is kinda used to it, using it since 1991		21:40
ruskie	mgedmin, the font I've been using for years now in terms is Aerial Mono and I love that font... even made the n900 use it now	21:40
RST38h	actually, I should probably make it 1993	21:40
Myrtti	RST38h: we had the difficult decision back in school to pick between 16-bit and 32-bit mIRC	21:41
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Myrtti	and that scary trumpet winsock was looming in the background	21:41
lcuk	Myrtti, get the kebab, read a book	21:41
RST38h	Myrtti: When Mardambey's children laid waste on the IRC, it was already considered the end of the true IRC experience :)	21:41
* slonopotamus has just reinvented Aho-Corasick algorihm and feels depressed because wanted to name it by himself		21:41
Myrtti	RST38h: shrug I was 16 then	21:42
RST38h	slono: You can always change your name to Aho Corasick	21:42
slonopotamus	RST38h: i think that's two people	21:42
RST38h	Myrtti: Shit. Now I really feel like an old fart :)	21:42
RST38h	slono: Will it matter?	21:42
slonopotamus	RST38h: meh, easier to invent something different	21:44
Myrtti	RST38h: I had a revelation today though, a minor celebrity known mainly for being a bad singer, bad striptease act and having poor judgement on men announced she's pregnant and is going to be a wonderful mum at age 32 - I've always thought she was well over 40... I feel a bit relieved and less fretty about my own age now	21:44
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Myrtti	OMG! how cute http://instagr.am/p/GTNQ/	21:44
RST38h	slono: [state-of-factly] Ahuy Harassick not taken yet.	21:44
RST38h	Myrtti: Sudden recognition of the character you are talking about made me feel even worse.	21:45
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RST38h	Myrtti: But there is a redeeming factor there: I have not heard a single song by her. :)	21:45
Myrtti	RST38h: I doubt you know her really, unless you're a connoisseur of 3rd rate Finnish wannabe celebs	21:46
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Myrtti	I certainly wish I'd know less	21:46
RST38h	Mariah Carey	21:48
Myrtti	yeah, not her	21:48
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Myrtti	MC looks fairly decent	21:48
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Myrtti	and she can actually sing, even if her music isn't to everyones liking.	21:48
RST38h	Oh, this means they are getting pregnant in droves	21:48
RST38h	heya javispedro	21:49
javispedro	hi	21:49
Myrtti	"FireShepherd floods the wireless network with packets to turn off FireSheep" have to agree with Hyppönen, I'm not too sure if that is such a good idea...	21:50
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RST38h	Depends on the way you construct a packet	21:50
Myrtti	but Firesheep isn't the problem	21:50
Myrtti	shrug	21:51
javispedro	why, oh, why gitorious doesn't have a bugtracker	21:51
RST38h	Yea, but they cannot fix the actual problem (no https support by many sites)	21:51
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RST38h	javis: so that you cannot bother developers with your petty reports? =)	21:51
javispedro	RST38h: it is way more easier to ignore a bug report than to ignore a pm storm =)	21:52
RST38h	Meanwhile:Stopping Malaria By Immunizing Mosquitoes	21:52
RST38h	javispedro: both are easy	21:52
* alterego contemplates working on mixing QML and GLES 2.0		21:53
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Myrtti	damned flashplugin	21:54
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Myrtti	just randomly the loads on my lappy skyrocket :-(	21:55
javispedro	even Adobe is trying to ditch flash	21:55
dion	guys, could anybody suggest. For some reason pulseaudio doesn't starts on my n900 during boot. So there is no sound.. where it should start?	21:55
dion	/etc/event.replace.d/pulseaudio exists.. but who will call it?	21:56
javispedro	on upstart, the file itself should say when it starts	21:56
javispedro	(in what I can only call one of the most horrible features ever made)	21:56
MohammadAG	javispedro, is there a way to disable desktop composition outside fullscreen?	21:57
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javispedro	MohammadAG: killing h-d	21:57
dion	javispedro: any way to debug it? I've verified that I can start pulseaudio by hands	21:57
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MohammadAG	err	21:57
javispedro	MohammadAG: do touch /etc/no_dsme_reboots or whatever that file is called these days	21:57
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MohammadAG	I don't have the watchdog enabled anyways	21:58
MohammadAG	I can run the N900 without X	21:58
javispedro	good	21:58
javispedro	dion: nope, but you might want to install syslog and see if it says anthing remotely useful	21:59
javispedro	s/nope/none that I know of	21:59
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MohammadAG	The window manager applies compositing for all top-level windows by default. This behavior can be disabled by setting the Qt::WA_Maemo5NonComposited widget attribute on a top-level widget. javispedro what about this?	22:02
javispedro	old	22:02
javispedro	prePR 1.1 not even fullscreen windows were composited	22:02
javispedro	so to get any sane performance drnoksnes had to set that property	22:03
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MohammadAG	javispedro, so the app _has_ to be fs to be non composited...	22:03
javispedro	*were uncomposited, sorry.	22:03
ds3	is it me or did the latest update made some things faster?	22:03
javispedro	MohammadAG: obvious reasons: the titlebar is drawn via OpenGL.	22:04
dion	javispedro: got it.. it looks like the issue was disk full on /	22:04
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messerting	~pr1.3	22:04
javispedro	MohammadAG: so, no OpenGL, no title bar.	22:04
infobot	pr1.3 is probably the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/10/25/new-nokia-n900-software-update-available/ -- see ~flashing for how to update, or http://repository.maemo.org/stable/fremantle/Maemo_5_SDK_Release_Notes_v1_7_en.txt, or http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-26.log.html#t2010-10-26T03:02:54	22:04
MohammadAG	ds3, yeah, trolls leaving	22:04
ds3	MohammadAG: no, this is actual use. mail seems to no get wedged as much either	22:04
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ds3	I just don't have enough run time to find out if it is faster or I haven't pushed it hard enough	22:05
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MohammadAG	ds3, I use Nokia Messaging, so modest was pretty fast for me	22:05
MohammadAG	but yeah, I guess it is faster	22:05
ds3	ah I se	22:05
ds3	previously I had to killall modest daily to keep receiving mail (I'm on POP)	22:06
RST38h	ds2: that is pre-pr12	22:07
ds3	RST38h: for me it was 1.2 only... pre1.2 didn't wedge as much	22:08
RST38h	weird	22:08
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ds3	I was pleasantly surprised when a Maemo upgrade showed up in app mgr AND things felt faster after the reboot	22:08
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messerting	I don't understand this; I have too little rootfs space to upgrade to 1.3, but after uninstalling about 60MB of apps, I still only have about 30MB free?	22:10
RST38h	we do not know. it is magic.	22:11
ruskie	messerting, apt-get clean	22:11
ruskie	messerting, also try a reboot	22:11
javispedro	and reboot	22:11
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joga	most programs don't go to root	22:11
messerting	ok, will do apt-get clean. Have rebooted	22:11
MohammadAG	most apps you uninstalled are probably installed to /opt	22:12
maybeArgh	so i was playing asphalt5... and it was a bit choppy :/	22:12
maybeArgh	but then i noticed i still had xplane running in the background all the time \o/	22:12
ruskie	lol	22:12
MohammadAG	asphalt 5?	22:12
MohammadAG	preenv?	22:12
maybeArgh	yeah	22:12
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joga	there ought to be some oneliner to list package names of all programs that reside on rootfs sorted by size ;)	22:13
messerting	MohammadAG: ok, that explains it. Will dig around in the filesystem to find what apps are in /	22:13
MohammadAG	messerting, du -h in /usr	22:13
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MohammadAG	I think DocScrutinizer said \| sort -n works	22:14
MohammadAG	so du -h \| sort -n \| more	22:14
messerting	MohammadAG: 350.9M /usr	22:14
joga	with -h it's not consistent	22:14
MohammadAG	cd bin	22:14
DocScrutinizer	du -x /\|sort -n	22:14
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MohammadAG	ty DocScrutinizer	22:14
DocScrutinizer	-x for not traversing filesystems	22:15
MohammadAG	meh, ignore \| more	22:15
DocScrutinizer	sort numeric won't work on du -h	22:15
MohammadAG	it sorts from smallest to large	22:15
joga	you can reverse it with sort -nr	22:15
mgedmin	messerting, try sync; that used to help	22:15
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messerting	ok, I'll uninstall emacs now ;)	22:16
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mgedmin	also, best way to free up a dozen megs is to temporarily disable application catalogues	22:18
mgedmin	such as extras	22:18
mgedmin	/var/lib/apt takes a bunch of space	22:18
mgedmin	for package lists	22:19
messerting	mgedmin: but apt-get clean fixes that, right?	22:19
mgedmin	no	22:19
RST38h	you can move it to mmd	22:19
mgedmin	never	22:19
RST38h	mmc	22:19
mgedmin	apt-get clean cleans /var/cache/apt/archives	22:19
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messerting	whoa, emacs took 77MB	22:19
* mgedmin moved his /var/lib/apt to /opt somewhere		22:19
javispedro	pfft.	22:20
javispedro	I just got a "maintainer request" for one package of mine from a guy	22:20
javispedro	a) I don't know	22:20
messerting	my /var/lib/apt/ take only 7.4MB	22:20
javispedro	b) has 3 karma points	22:20
javispedro	all of them come from the default garage project	22:21
RST38h	javis: does he know what maintaining a packqge is?	22:21
javispedro	RST38h: no idea, as the "maintainer request" doesn't force users to at least fill a textfield with some explanation	22:21
javispedro	it's just clickety click, confirm, go	22:21
javispedro	spam.	22:21
pupnik_	heyy javispedro	22:22
javispedro	hi pupnik_	22:22
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javispedro	so, getting a Pandaboard?	22:22
pupnik_	is sdl + gl a way to get portable 3D between n900 and x86?	22:22
messerting	~flashing	22:22
infobot	methinks flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	22:22
pupnik_	dunno javispedro	22:22
javispedro	pupnik_: you'd also need GLES emulation libraries in x86	22:22
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javispedro	pupnik_: with that, you could patch SDL_gles to use those and build in on x86, then yes.	22:23
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pupnik_	that could be useful, no?	22:23
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javispedro	something like that is already used by for ex. the palm sdk	22:23
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pupnik_	http://i.imgur.com/Do9RA.png my latest music 'shader'	22:23
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pupnik_	hm	22:24
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javispedro	pupnik_: as said you should make those winamp or gstreamer visualizations :)	22:24
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pupnik_	not hard to do	22:25
messerting	I'm confused: In one of the links given by ~pr1.3, it says I should apt-get dist-upgrade, but in the title here, it says I shouldn't. Is it okay if I do "apt-get update;apt-get install maemo-sdk-opt" first?	22:25
javispedro	what are you trying to update, a sdk or the device?	22:26
javispedro	for the sdk, both apt-get upgrade or apt-get dist-upgrade would be fine	22:26
javispedro	for the device, suggested is to use h-a-m	22:26
hrw\|uds	~pr1.3	22:27
infobot	pr1.3 is, like, the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/10/25/new-nokia-n900-software-update-available/ -- see ~flashing for how to update, or http://repository.maemo.org/stable/fremantle/Maemo_5_SDK_Release_Notes_v1_7_en.txt, or http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-26.log.html#t2010-10-26T03:02:54	22:27
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messerting	javispedro: I'd like to update only the device to pr1.3. I'll go with h-a-m	22:27
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MohammadAG	javispedro, how do I graphically accelerate my SDK?	22:27
javispedro	that infobot fact should be changed, sdk release notes can confuse newbs	22:27
MohammadAG	tried to make what you gave me, got some errors	22:27
hrw\|uds	javispedro: do that then?	22:27
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messerting	ok, I see now that what I read was for the sdk :)	22:28
MohammadAG	~no infobot, pr1.3 is not http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-26.log.html#t2010-10-26T03:02:54	22:28
infobot	MohammadAG: okay	22:28
MohammadAG	~pr1.3	22:28
infobot	pr1.3 is probably not http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-26.log.html#t2010-10-26T03:02:54	22:28
* MohammadAG facepalms		22:28
javispedro	~pr1.3	22:28
infobot	pr1.3 is probably the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/10/25/new-nokia-n900-software-update-available/ -- see ~flashing for how to update	22:28
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hrw\|uds	thx javispedro	22:29
javispedro	there's no wiki page for "fixing" h-a-m to link to, though	22:29
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hrw\|uds	http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2010/10/29/i-got-efika-mx-smartbook-from-genesi/	22:29
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javispedro	~pr1.3	22:30
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.3 -- see ~flashing for how to update	22:30
javispedro	linking to wiki instead of nokia.com	22:30
javispedro	MohammadAG: I admit it is hard to setup, you should check the original vmgl docs as I did not write any =)	22:31
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javispedro	... not to mention it's starting to bitrot, I wouldn't be surprised if it does not build in uber recent xorg versions	22:32
MohammadAG	meh, nvm then :P	22:33
MohammadAG	The SDK runs fast enough on an i5	22:33
javispedro	btw, if you see the video, you'll note that vmgl does not have support for shaders	22:33
javispedro	so the background blur effect does not work	22:33
javispedro	subtle :)	22:33
GAN900	PR1.3 is so lame they didn't even bother with a changelog this time.	22:34
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chx	um	22:35
chx	GAN900: you do realize that QT 4.7 is a huge, huge deal?	22:35
hrw\|uds	chx: qt 4.7 was already available for maemo5	22:35
chx	easier if built in, no?	22:35
hrw\|uds	no big deal, really	22:35
GAN900	chx, Maemo 5 is only incidental to it and PR1.3, though.	22:36
javispedro	yes, but not exactly mind boggling work from nokia :)	22:36
GAN900	javispedro, +++++	22:36
chx	pfffft, Nokia and mind boggling?	22:36
ioan	is the power kernel updated to the last version (the one from PR1.3)?	22:36
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chx	you are in the wrong decade for that.	22:36
GAN900	chx, in summary, Nokia still sucks.	22:36
chx	there is no doubt to THAT	22:36
* javispedro 's wireless mouse batteries run out.. can't focus outside irc, dammit!		22:36
javispedro	/quit	22:37
GAN900	Well, good that we're clear then.	22:37
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BCMM	is fcam working in 1.3?	22:47
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Aranel	How can I force fsck? I'm using 1.6 gb of /home but I got only 70meg free, so I wonder where did other 300~ go, I want to do fsck.	22:51
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Myrtti	traditionally fsck is forced by making a file called forcefsck in the root of the partition	22:52
mgedmin	Aranel, have you tried du -x /home yet?	22:53
Myrtti	but don't know if it works on N900	22:53
Aranel	mgedmin: saw it on Storage Usage. Wait a min, I'm doing it :)	22:53
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Aranel	Myrtti: yup I know it works on my Ubuntu box but I'm pretty sure it's not working on N900.	22:55
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Aranel	1873344 /home and 73.0 Free. Hmm, now It's reasonable. Storage Usage confused me. Thanks for the tip ^^	22:56
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Aranel	but I'm still curious about can't I run fsck on N900, can I?	22:57
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mgedmin	maybe you can	22:58
mgedmin	I've no idea how...	22:58
mgedmin	umount /home will likely complain about it being used	22:58
mgedmin	dual-boot meego from sd card, run fsck that way	22:59
mgedmin	?	22:59
mgedmin	fsck on a mounted partition == extremely unhealthy	22:59
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lpjhjdh	would a general cross compilation question be kosher here?	23:00
Aranel	hmm yeah maybe dual-booting can help, so I can fsck rootfs too.	23:00
lpjhjdh	libtool is making me cry	23:00
lpjhjdh	trying to cross compile glib and since prefix=/usr it's picking up my host libdl rather than my $ROOTFS/lib/libdl despite -rpath-link and -L$ROOTFS/lib/libdl	23:01
lpjhjdh	any recommendations?	23:01
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lpjhjdh	I'm also using LIBTOOL=arm-none-linux-gnueabi-libtool	23:01
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messerting	It seems I've got every locale installed on my device. Can I uninstall the languages I don't use? 22MB in /usr/lib/locale and 12MB in /usr/share/locale	23:03
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BCMM	~flashing	23:08
infobot	flashing is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	23:08
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BCMM	am i right in thinking that "flasher-3.5 -F <firmware-image> -f -R" won't touch the contents of ~/MyDocs?	23:12
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TiagoTiago	this can't be a good sign	23:21
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makis	is someone using man-db package from extras-devel? when I type man ls Im getting error "pager: applet not found. man: command exit with status 256: pager -s"	23:21
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TiagoTiago	last boot, whenever i went to or from the apps menu instead of the backgrounf blurring i saw random triangles flashing in the bacckground (like "polygon tearing")	23:22
TiagoTiago	i rebooted and it stopped happening, but that it happened at all still worries me	23:22
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* Noobmonk3y may have figured out qt layouts!!! -> dont use them!		23:23
TiagoTiago	lol	23:24
Noobmonk3y	5 days trying to get one thing right	23:24
Noobmonk3y	tis a bloody mare!	23:25
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: yep	23:25
BCMM	does it usually take ages to boot right after flashing?	23:25
DocScrutinizer	makis: install less	23:25
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: thanks	23:25
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: yes	23:26
hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: ?	23:26
hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: how do you create qt ui?	23:26
TiagoTiago	has anyone ever heard of thos happening?	23:26
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Noobmonk3y	hrw\|uds: using the gui :\|	23:26
Noobmonk3y	ie qtcreator	23:27
hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: layout elements are easy	23:27
Noobmonk3y	not wiuth what i'm doing supposedlt	23:27
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Noobmonk3y	and #qt and #qt-maemo are ever so quiet lol	23:27
hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: you just add widgets, then select few, put them in layout, select next ones, put in layout and finally add layout for whole window	23:27
Noobmonk3y	ok, still not gonna help me!! done that for 5 days, tried all types of layouts lol , let me explain	23:28
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: i was doing something else while it booted, and after a couple of minutes realised it hadn't made any noises with a start and thought i was in the dreaded bootloop	23:28
hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: show screenshot of ui?	23:28
Noobmonk3y	on landscape i want 2 sets of columns (label label, label label) - but portrait i want them to wrap to fit the screen, so 1 set of two colums	23:29
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Noobmonk3y	ie (label label) on each line	23:29
Noobmonk3y	got it auto rotating fine, but it just seems layouts refuse to either resize, flow or go where i want them	23:29
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hrw\|uds	ok, now I uderstand	23:30
hrw\|uds	you want to reflow UI	23:30
DocScrutinizer	Noobmonk3y: this won't ever happen automatically	23:30
Noobmonk3y	surely i cant be the first? - as the lscape is wider, and portrait taller lol	23:30
Noobmonk3y	DocScrutinizer: why didnt you tell me that monday when asking lol!	23:30
Noobmonk3y	:p	23:30
Noobmonk3y	but thank you!	23:30
DocScrutinizer	a 4 col layout remains a 4 col layout	23:30
Noobmonk3y	i'm currently in the process of manually positioning it all	23:30
hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: NO!!	23:31
Noobmonk3y	hrw\|uds: meh	23:31
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DocScrutinizer	Noobmonk3y: use two layouts	23:31
Noobmonk3y	another four days to figure out a "reflow Ui"?	23:31
Noobmonk3y	i did	23:31
Noobmonk3y	and even tried repositioning	23:31
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Noobmonk3y	they refused to go where i wanted, one just vanished!	23:31
hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: does it is label1 label2, label3 label4 and has to be label1 label2\nlabel3 label4 in portrait?	23:31
Noobmonk3y	preferably yes!	23:32
Noobmonk3y	(and well described!)	23:32
hrw\|uds	how you generate labels?	23:32
Noobmonk3y	created in the gui	23:32
hrw\|uds	looks like best would be to have two UI layouts in application	23:32
Noobmonk3y	as i'm playing with stylesheets etc	23:32
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hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: what app does? what are labels?	23:32
Noobmonk3y	oooo - gonna be a pain, all within a stacked widget with 9 widgets lol	23:32
Noobmonk3y	hrw\|uds: re-invention of healthcheck	23:33
Noobmonk3y	9 pages *	23:33
hrw\|uds	healthcheck? was it that app with nightmare ui?	23:33
Noobmonk3y	yup ;)	23:33
Noobmonk3y	so this time, i'm gonna do it right!	23:33
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Noobmonk3y	anyway that was my first ever forway into pyqt lol	23:33
hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: first of all: drop any css from it	23:34
Noobmonk3y	thistime, my first ever time into c++/qt - or whatever it is	23:34
Noobmonk3y	aghhh no! - cos thats what made it shite last time!	23:34
hrw\|uds	let it look like normal application not as some design nightmare	23:34
Noobmonk3y	and it now looks sexy in landscape	23:34
Noobmonk3y	may just keep in in lscape	23:34
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hrw\|uds	Noobmonk3y: we have different definition of 'sexy' look of app	23:34
Noobmonk3y	very true :p	23:34
* Noobmonk3y autorotation is now leaving the app!		23:35
Noobmonk3y	yay - battery saving!	23:35
Noobmonk3y	wooop	23:35
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* Noobmonk3y relaxes, looks so much easier now ;)		23:37
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jacktheripper	hey, for me, sometimes haptic feedback + audio work, and sometimes not. I have to reboot the N900 to get any change, and these two are always coupled	23:41
jacktheripper	anybody else having that problem ?	23:41
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Jaizuke	Hey everyone, is TMO down?	23:42
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jacktheripper	it is	23:43
Noobmonk3y	:P	23:43
Jaizuke	Ah I see.	23:44
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Jaizuke	Hey mohammad	23:44
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* hrw\|uds off		23:45
hrw\|uds	have a nice weekend	23:45
MohammadAG	hi	23:45
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Noobmonk3y	hey mo	23:46
Jaizuke	umm, I was wondering if you could help me with your combined modified hildon package?	23:46
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sjk	~pr1.3	23:56
infobot	[pr1.3] the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.3 -- see ~flashing for how to update	23:56
_llll_	a bad day to have left my charger at work, clearlt	23:57
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Noobmonk3y	_llll_: lol :P	23:59

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