IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2010-11-09

* alterego yawns00:01
AranelI got a very odd problem. In Conversations window, a scrollbar appeared and touch scrolling is not working anymore. http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png Google'd about it but couldn't find anything, can someone help me please?00:01
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alteregoThat's quite cool00:05
alteregoHave you tried restarting your device?00:06
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Aranelalterego: yes, tried that twice.00:07
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alteregoEek,00:07
alteregoHrm, are you running PR1.2 or 1.3?00:07
Aranelalterego: PR1.300:07
MohammadAG51reinstall your theme00:07
alteregoCould you pastie.org dpkg --list00:07
alteregoYeah, try that too :)00:08
AranelMohammadAG51: but It's the default one, how I'm going to that?00:08
MohammadAG51reinstall it :p00:08
alteregoTry switching themes and then switching back.00:08
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MohammadAG51hildon-theme-alpha/beta00:08
MohammadAG51alpha is blue, beta is orange00:08
MohammadAG51to easily pastebin, install pastebinit and00:09
MohammadAG51dpkg --list|pastebinit00:09
MohammadAG51gnite00:10
Aranelswitched to Digital Nature, still bugged. pasting dpkg --list now.00:11
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Aranelalterego: http://pastebin.com/0GUdkz4500:12
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alteregoDid the scroll bar dissappear when you switched to the other theme?00:14
Aranelalterego: no, it's still there.00:14
alteregoTry restarting your device now.00:14
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Aranelok, reinstalling the hildon-theme-alpha, 40 seconds left, rebooting after its completion.00:16
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alteregoOkay, I'll brb00:17
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Aranelalterego: reinstalled and rebooted, It's still there.00:20
alteregoEesh00:20
alteregoWell, I guess you're going to have to reflash.00:21
alteregoSomething sounds like it's got corrupt.00:21
Aranelcan't I reinstall the conversations app?00:21
Araneland purge config files related to it?00:22
Aranelreflashing because of a stupid scrollbar makes me feel really bad :|00:22
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alteregoPossibly,00:24
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DocScrutinizerI'd check gconftool -R for suspicious keys, maybe by |grep rollbar  and |grep rolling and |grep inetic00:26
AranelDocScrutinizer:  Nokia-N900-42-11:~# gconftool -R | grep rollbar Must specify one or more directories to recursively list.00:26
AranelDocScrutinizer: can you help me out about this?00:26
DocScrutinizer -R /00:27
DocScrutinizeriirc00:27
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AranelDocScrutinizer: http://pastebin.com/2gV0MxCs I noticed an entry, scrollbar = true00:28
DocScrutinizeryou considered to restore a backup? just the settings might suffice to restore00:28
AranelI don't have any backups to be honest :|00:28
DocScrutinizerprobably you're better off with less instead of grep00:29
DocScrutinizeror give grep some context00:30
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DocScrutinizerlike maybe 6 lines headers00:30
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jacekowskiif anybody is interested00:31
jacekowskihttp://jacekowski.org/Maemo/FMTXD1.300:31
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AranelDocScrutinizer: *stupid question* I couldnt understand anything in fact :|00:32
AranelDocScrutinizer: should I do gconftool -R | less?00:32
DocScrutinizergconftool -R | grep -B 5 rollbar00:32
DocScrutinizeror less, I'd use less00:32
AranelDocScrutinizer: http://pastebin.com/W3A4n7X200:34
DocScrutinizersearching in less is fine, you just have to either patch your system to handle Enter key correctly, or use ^M00:34
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AranelDocScrutinizer: looks like that scrollbar entry was xterm, not conversations app.00:34
jacekowskihmm, first really productive day in couple weeks00:34
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jacekowskifixed fmtxd00:35
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jacekowskiand i managed to work around rslogix5k code protection00:35
DocScrutinizerAranel: :nod: :-/00:35
jacekowskibtw. if anybody is interested i made a copy of that flash that somebody linked here couple days ago http://jacekowski.org/Maemo/Flash00:36
DocScrutinizerAranel: maybe you find better results by searching for better matchstrings. onversations seems a good one00:36
AranelDocScrutinizer: any other ideas about this issue? I'm kinda hopeless now.00:36
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DocScrutinizerbut honestly, I'm somewhat just wild guessing. an strace of conversations app might also help00:37
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DocScrutinizerprobably a reflash is the faster alternative though, of course with a test prior and after restoring your backup you'll of course do of current system00:38
AranelDocScrutinizer: grep conversations didnt return any match, tried gconf /osso/apps/rtcom-messaging-ui: http://pastebin.com/xg0Tr14X00:39
PaulFertserjacekowski: linking to a patch would be nice00:39
PaulFertserjacekowski: (fixed kernel module)00:39
AranelIn fact It's a very slower alternative for me, since I'm using the same system without flashing for a year and It's still rock-solid, except this little annoying scrollbar recently appeared :|00:39
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trumeejacekowski: what is this http://maemo.jacekowski.org/binary/libflashplayer.so ?00:40
trumeejacekowski:  is this the TI version?00:40
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AranelDocScrutinizer: I guess It's a hard thing to do, but how can I "strace conversations app"?00:40
AranelDocScrutinizer: I really want to solve this issue, instead of reflashing.00:41
jacekowskiPaulFertser: i don't have one00:41
jacekowskiPaulFertser: i patched a binary00:41
DocScrutinizersorry, I'm afk now. I guess somebody else here might take over00:41
PaulFertserjacekowski: the kernel module?00:41
jacekowskiPaulFertser: just to default to region 4 to unlock all frequencies00:41
jacekowskiPaulFertser: yes00:41
Araneloh ok, thanks anyway :|00:42
jacekowskiPaulFertser: power locking is still there00:42
jacekowskiPaulFertser: but fmtxd isn't using it00:42
trumeejacekowski: ?00:42
jacekowskitrumee: dunno00:42
jacekowskitrumee: that's version somebody linked here couple days ago00:42
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trumeejacekowski: so you have tested that binary?00:42
BCMMwhat is "soft poweroff", referred to in systemui.xml?00:42
trumee*havent00:42
PaulFertserjacekowski: i wonder if maemo users have some "community" kernel, then it might be just updated with pr1.3 fixes (minus that strange USB charging tweak), "power" patches on top and hostmode.00:42
PaulFertserjacekowski: of course pr1.3 fixes shouldn't include fmtx locking there.00:43
jacekowskiPaulFertser: it's called kernel power00:43
PaulFertserjacekowski: is it actively maintained?00:43
jacekowski~seen t-tan00:43
infobott-tan <~tanner@e179094244.adsl.alicedsl.de> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 150d 3h 2m 46s ago, saying: 'smoking hot device?'.00:43
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Aranel[Repost] I got a very odd problem. In Conversations window, a scrollbar appeared and touch scrolling is not working anymore. http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png Google'd about it but couldn't find anything, can someone help me please?00:44
trumeeWhere does libflashplayer sit in N900. Cant find it in ~/.mozilla ?00:44
* DocScrutinizer wonders what happened to titan or to his device X-P00:44
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trumeeah, it is here /usr/lib/browser/plugins00:45
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jacekowskimake a backup00:47
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: a big shock?00:47
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trumeejacekowski: yeah, done that00:47
jacekowskiand tell me if it's working00:47
jacekowskias i had no chance to test it yet00:47
trumeejacekowski: hope it is not a tweaked version 9 binary00:47
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trumeejacekowski: is there any real flash 10 page i can test it with?00:48
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jacekowskiperson that linked a link to it to me claims that it's real flash 1000:49
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Araneltrumee: I remember some links to real flash 10 pages on Maemo Talk Flash 10.1 thread.00:49
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trumeejacekowski: crap i see a globe on adobe find flash version, rather than any numbers00:50
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jacekowskihttp://www.senocular.com/flash/tutorials/flash10drawingapi/demos/Kaleidoscope%20Rose.html00:51
jacekowskitry this00:51
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BCMMif it isn't a contraversial issue, why is there no flash 10? is it adobe's fault, or nokia's?00:51
jacekowskinokia's00:52
trumeejacekowski: facebook says Upgrade flash player!00:52
jacekowskihave you restarted browserd?00:52
trumeejacekowski: i restarted the device00:52
PaulFertserThat's user's fault, they should have boycotted flash more :|00:52
BCMMfacebook video works fine with version-tweaked flash 900:53
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BCMMPaulFertser: yeah, i wish flash would die00:53
BCMMPaulFertser: in the meantime, i'm quite happy to let iphone users apply pressure, while i get to actually use websites00:53
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PaulFertserBCMM: i wonder what kind of useful websites really require flash though.00:54
trumeejacekowski: nope that is not real flash 1000:54
BCMMjacekowski: so what's the deal? does nokia need to pay adobe, or just package their player?00:54
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jacekowskiBCMM: both00:55
BCMMdoes adobe want an silly amount of money or something?00:56
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jacekowskinah, nokia is just abandoning n90000:57
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Noma_i went to adobe's own version test site, and my n900 rebooted - with jacekowski's flash plugin installed00:59
jacekowskihmm, it looks like it's not working00:59
BCMMjacekowski: they are still selling it, and presumably still advertising facebook integration00:59
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khertan_Evening ... !01:07
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tobis87jacekowski: It is flash 10.1, but only for android... strings show it is "Shockwave Flash 10.1 d61", while the flash for arm on the TI site was 10.1 r9201:07
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jacekowskiwell, somebody here claimed that it's working01:08
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jacekowskibut i'm not going to point fingers01:08
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tobis87Ok, if it works. But I don't believe it until I see it. I'm not so much after flash anyway.01:10
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jacekowskihttp://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-11-03.log.html#t2010-11-03T15:52:5401:11
andaxthe tweak flash plugin does a good job?01:11
tobis87jacekowski: :-D I also had downloaded it.01:13
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tobis87Btw, I have updated hw crypto drivers which do not crash the device anymore. I only included the hw drivers, the src for the hash algorithm and dm driver including nolo (which is still needed to flash) can be found in the backlog.01:21
tobis87http://www.mediafire.com/?0krkujb0vevvkva01:21
cehteh# apt-cache search sharing01:22
cehtehBus error01:22
cehtehuhm?!wtf1!!1101:22
javispedroheh01:23
javispedrothe other day I got a lot of them01:23
cehtehworks on a 2nd attempt01:23
javispedrounaligned writes might cause those01:23
javispedroe.g. malloc() returning shit, or mmap, etc.01:24
cehtehi know .. but this should normally not happen01:24
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cehtehmemory corruption .. neutrino radiation from the sun, mindcontrolling rays from the nsa whatever01:25
javispedroyou tell me01:25
javispedroI got tired from those yesterday01:25
javispedrostill don't know what caused them01:25
javispedrowell, I do know mmap on my system started returning shit, but I do not know the underlying cause.01:26
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Aranelstraced the conversations app and couldn't understand anything on it :| can someone help me to find which configuration files rtcom-messaging-ui using?01:29
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andaxcehteh: maybe your / partition was full, that can cause crazy errors, at installing more apps in particular.01:31
cehtehnah isnt01:31
cehtehtransient error01:32
khertan_http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-1514001:32
andaxbtw: i have no idea why / is so small01:32
alteregoAnyone here using the hostmode kernel?01:32
cehtehi have no idea why nokia fucked it up this way, small / is ok .. but the optification sux01:32
cehtehalterego: yes01:32
khertan_question of price01:33
cehtehMohammadAG made a power kernel with hostmode earlier this evening01:33
khertan_ / is on a fast nand01:33
khertan_and the 32gb are slower nand01:33
khertan_(in fact not an nand but emmcà01:33
khertan_)01:33
andaxcehteh, yeah, in this point its the most fubared operating system i ever seen since decades01:33
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cehteh16MB fast nand for / and 512MB or 1G ram would make me more happy01:33
alteregocehteh: does your camera work?01:33
cehtehalterego: lemme try01:34
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alteregoThough, it might work with the power kernel.01:34
cehtehkamera fcam or what?01:34
alteregoStandard camera app01:34
cehtehvideo works .. i had once porblems with it01:35
cehtehphoto too01:35
alteregoHrm, I keep getting operation failed messages.01:35
cehtehhttp://mohammadag.xceleo.org/hostmode/Nov_08_2010/power40/01:35
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alteregoI have coffee, it's 11:39pm and I plan to work through the night.01:39
cehtehplease package compcache for the n900 :)01:40
alteregoI already have a job to do :P01:40
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andaxcehteh: my phone provider sold it as with 1GB RAM but it is in fact 256MB and the rest is SWAP. As if it makes no difference. This is really a question as old as Linux but maemo choose the worst possibility herein.01:42
iDontCompcache for the N900 would be great, maybe another time :P01:42
cehtehandax: i know01:42
iDontI've tried to modify the swap notify patch myself, but the patches from Nokia change swapfile.c pretty much01:42
DocScrutinizer~optification01:42
jacekowskinot really01:42
infoboti guess optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence301:42
iDontdon't have enough experience to knwo what I'm doing :P01:42
jacekowskin900 processor isn't fast enough to deal with compression01:42
jacekowskiand it would be slower than reading it from emmc01:43
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cehtehjacekowski: compcache is blazing fast, it works on slower processors01:43
jacekowskiname one01:43
cehtehsome people run it on the G1 iirc01:44
cehtehthe compcache page has some results01:44
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cehtehaccessing emmc has more latency and needs more power than compressing/decompressing lzo01:44
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cehtehaccessing emmc comes not for free .. there are quite some software layers and hardware stuff involved01:46
andaxiDont: i heard it already helps significantly to move swap to microSD. The data bus is a bottleneck01:46
andaxnot only processor01:47
DocScrutinizermeh, first instance if there were less preloaded applications and those that are were less RAM greedy, then we'd be much happier with 256MB ram - hell my Panasonic toughbook had a 300MHz-P-II mobile and 192MB, and was quite ok for KDE3 (except for OOo :-P)01:47
javispedrobah01:47
iDontandex: I've already moved my swap to a dedicated MicroSD partition ;)01:47
javispedrothere's never enough RAM.01:47
javispedroI used the N810 with 128MiB and NO swap.01:48
javispedroand it's not like fremantle is twice in size.01:48
jacekowskireal    0m 2.27s01:48
jacekowskithat's how long it takes to compress 10M file01:48
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: sometimes there's too much RAM. RAM eats power, and has overhead for management as well01:48
khertan_iDont, be carefull moving swap to sd ... if it s too slow it ll use more the cpu and can cause sudden reboot01:48
khertan_iDont, at least it s my own experiences01:48
javispedrojacekowski: 2.27s sounds _a lot_01:49
javispedrojacekowski: can't be01:49
jacekowskiyep01:49
jacekowskiit is01:49
javispedrobz2?01:49
andaxiDont: which class microSD card should it be?01:49
jacekowskilzo01:49
javispedroO.o01:49
iDontkhertan_: it's class 6, no sudden reboots yet. Also, didn't notice anny accelerated battery drain, though I can't back this up except by my own judgement01:49
iDont*any01:50
javispedroDocScrutinizer: definitely.01:50
cehtehi'd like to have swap on uSD and emmc .. at the same priority then the kernel distributed it evently01:50
jacekowskicehteh: lzo isn't fast enough for this stuff01:50
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iDontlzo not fast enough?01:50
jacekowskiyep01:50
cehtehbut unfortunally the busybox swapon doesnt support swap priorities01:50
khertan_iDont, personnaly i notice better performance, better battery, and ... sudden reboot with two class 6 micro sd ...01:50
Juozapashow to change stand-by clock background?01:51
khertan_iDont, maybe this is due to sd ... and i should try with an other one01:51
javispedrocehteh: that's not exactly a show stopper01:51
iDontkharten_: that's a shame, maybe the sd card has some bad sectors or something?01:51
khertan_iDont, didn't notice01:51
cehtehjavispedro: well for someone lazy like me it is .. dont want to compile util-linux :)01:51
javispedrocehteh: have easydebian around?01:51
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khertan_iDont, and sudden reboot give no errors unfortunatly01:52
cehtehah that might be an idea ,, no but i can install it01:52
timeless_anyone here familiar w/ dpkg-buildpackage and friends?01:52
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* timeless_ is trying to puzzle through a build process01:52
khertan_timeless, depends ...01:52
javispedroeverybody here should be partially familiar with those :)01:52
timeless_is it likely that i could do:01:52
timeless_apt-get source foo01:52
timeless_and end up with:01:52
iDontkhertan_: can't help you, I'm running swap on microsd since PR 1.3 was released and haven't experienced any bad behaviour yet01:52
timeless_foo-0.1/01:52
cehtehsince my filesystems are ext4 i even dont need this crappy loopback and could chroot directly (or do without chroot)01:52
timeless_and then somehow do a "build step"01:52
timeless_which would give me01:52
andaxi would set it to priorize swap on microSD but keep swap on N900, so i still could remove the microSD card without severe problems (would only need to poweroff or '# swapoff')01:53
timeless_foo/foo-0.1/01:53
timeless_?01:53
* cehteh never removes the microsd01:53
javispedro"mkdir foo && mv foo-0.1 foo"? /me didn't understand01:53
khertan_iDont, maybe i should try again with 1.3 ... i ve try with 1.101:53
timeless_javispedro: i'm looking at a directory which has "stuff"01:53
jacekowskiiDont: remove back cover01:53
DocScrutinizerso, has anybody with 1.3 checked if a mere "cp -r /media/mmc1/<some-huge-stuff> MyDocs" still freezes the whole device?01:53
jacekowskiiDont: and you will notice bad behaviour01:54
iDontjacekowski: haha, no thank you ;)01:54
timeless_i don't know what "scripts" have been doing what forms of "black magic'01:54
iDontjacekowski: i had this sd card laying around, so I though I could give it an use01:54
cehtehDocScrutinizer: i didnt tried, but possibly it still does .. rsync --bwlimit ftw01:54
DocScrutinizerpff01:54
timeless_$ find bash -name debian; find bash-4.1/ -name debian01:55
timeless_bash/4.1-x_maemox_xmx/debian01:55
timeless_bash-4.1/debian01:56
javispedrosounds completely broken01:56
timeless_tell me about it?01:56
javispedronfi what could create bash/${version/ dir01:56
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timeless_so, my problem is...01:57
* javispedro congratulates Bash for his excellent choice of a nickname01:57
timeless_i have code which tries to rename bash-4.1 to bash01:57
timeless_but it obviously fails if bash already exists01:57
bshnohighlightjavispedro:  its my name01:57
bshnohighlight...01:57
cehtehwtf is "murrianightorange 0.1" my device wants to install/upgrade that01:57
cehteheh some theme .. wtf :P01:57
* timeless_ congratulates bshnohighlight 's parents on their excellent choice...01:58
* DocScrutinizer has a deja-vu01:58
timeless_http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=5683901:58
timeless_MurrinaNightOrange01:58
timeless_0.901:58
timeless_GTK 2.x Theme/Style01:58
iDontanybody tried using ext4 for /home? A few weeks ago I've built the kernel module into the kernel, formatted the partition as ext4, copied user and opt back (cp -a), but got into a reboot loop back then.01:58
timeless_anyway...01:58
cehtehcant remember that i installed it01:58
* DocScrutinizer is searching IRC log for "bashir"01:59
cehtehiDont: i wont use it for home because of /opt01:59
timeless_iDont: congrats01:59
iDonttimeless_: ?01:59
* timeless_ gives iDont an iDunce award01:59
cehtehiDont: i have ext4 on MyDocs and uSD01:59
khertan_does qt bugs should be submit too to the maemo bug tracker as it s a qt-x11 bugs specific to the Kinectic Scroller ?01:59
khertan_http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-1514001:59
timeless_khertan_: that's the upstream tracker02:00
iDonttimeless_: sorry, i don't get it. What would prevent anyone from using a different FS?02:00
timeless_there's no reason to file the bugs downstream02:00
DocScrutinizerhttp://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-09.log.html#t2010-10-09T23:59:2402:00
cehtehiDont: consider /home as vital system partition you need to dive into some pita when you want to make it ext402:00
timeless_unless you feel like annoying andre02:00
khertan_timeless, ok02:00
iDonttimeless_: had performed a reflash anyway, so didn't had anything to lose02:00
khertan_timeless_, this isn't the purpose :)02:00
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cehtehiDont: you have to fiddle out how the boot process mounts /home .. there are a lot nokiaisms and braintfarts there02:01
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cehtehit needs /home quite early ...02:01
iDontcehteh: don't worry, I had moved /home to an ext3 partition on the microsd card and edited the genfs awk and rcs late to use that partition as /home02:01
iDontcehteh: this setup survived a reboot ;)02:01
jacekowskiiDont: take back cover off02:01
iDontcehteh: so I could parition the emmc freely02:02
timeless_javispedro: so um...02:02
timeless_about my bash problems02:02
cehtehso .. figure out why it doesnt work02:02
timeless_any suggestions?02:02
iDontjacekowski: i'm not stupid02:02
timeless_i can try to glob for */debian and strip /debian02:02
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timeless_but that's incredibly annoying02:02
* timeless_ isn't even sure it'd work02:03
iPeter-Is there any "Snap to grid" app what would work on pr 1.3?02:03
timeless_iPeter-: there's tweaker or something02:03
iDontwhy does everyone act like everyone is stupid? unknown people can have a linux background too02:03
DocScrutinizertimeless_: suggestions? one: build bash4 *with* "help" enabled, pretty please!02:03
timeless_sorry, "Tweakr"02:04
iPeter-timeless_: Tried tweakr, still non snap to grid.02:04
iDonti took the right precautions before messing with the emmc: i've succesfully moved /home to the microsd card so i could parition the emmc02:04
timeless_iPeter-: sorry, it's the only one i know of02:04
timeless_DocScrutinizer: ? bash is just an example02:04
DocScrutinizeriPeter-: trying alone won't help. You need to enable snap-to-grid in tweakr02:04
timeless_oh, heh02:05
timeless_yeah well...02:05
javispedrotimeless_: sorry, but still not understanding what you're trying and to do and why it cannot be done with plain dir movement.02:05
iPeter-DocScrutinizer: Have tried small and large "snap-to-grid" options, still none.02:05
DocScrutinizer:-/02:05
DocScrutinizerno idea then02:05
timeless_javispedro: imagine an entire source tree for maemo02:05
timeless_then imagine that some other script is managing it02:05
DocScrutinizerodds are any other "app" will fail as well02:05
timeless_it's also making a mess of it02:05
timeless_i want to steal just the useful directories02:06
javispedroah, and you want to _revert_ the mess, not cause it.02:06
iDontcehteh: i've written solution #7 on the wiki page about repartitioning the emmc. read that and you'll see that moving /home works just fine02:06
DocScrutinizerhehehe02:06
timeless_well, _revert_ would be rm -rf in some flavor02:06
timeless_i just want a copy of the pristine bits minus the crap02:06
cehtehiDont: i just keep it ext3 .. good enough for that02:07
javispedrotimeless_: if the .dsc files are still in the mess you can potentially extract the original package from them.02:07
timeless_javispedro: they are02:07
timeless_i used to do that in a previous incarnation02:07
timeless_i'd rather not spend the effort on that02:07
timeless_it's a lot of extra work which *probably* is totally wasteful02:07
iDontcehteh: yes, surely good enough, but i had nothing to lose, so i gave it a shot ;)02:07
timeless_i think */debian will do the right thing02:08
timeless_minus the pain of stripping /debian02:08
javispedroyes...02:08
* DocScrutinizer ponders about timeless_ 's incarnations02:08
cehtehsometime (lets say 99.9% of the time) i need my device just working :)02:08
timeless_echo $(ls -d */debian|perl -pne 's!/debian!!')02:08
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timeless_webchati'm using w7 as a vpn client02:09
timeless_webchatso i don't have memory for my normal irc client :)02:09
timeless_webchatmy primary nick is being sat on by my primary ssh client02:09
timeless_webchatbut the ssh port on that box is down02:09
Jartzanights02:09
timeless_webchatso i can't animate it :(02:09
iDonttimeless_webchat: could you please elaborate why /home as ext4 woldn't work?02:11
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Termanagood morning02:13
peb_Good Mornin Termana02:13
jacekowskibecause ext4 == /dev/null with delay02:13
javispedrohi Termana02:13
iDontjacekowski: i disagree, haven't lost any data with it yet02:14
jacekowskii said - with delay02:14
cehtehyeah thats a myth .. ext4 works quite reliable02:14
iDontjacekowski: but i don't like to turn this into a FS discussion02:14
timeless_webchati'm not saying it won't work02:15
javispedroeven if ext4 was stable in the 2.6.3x series, it surely wasn't in the 2.6.2x02:15
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javispedros/was/is02:16
timeless_webchati'm just applauding your efforts to brick your device02:16
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iDonttimeless_webchat: okay, as i said: i had nothing to lose, plus I know my way around in Linux02:16
iDonttimeless_webchat: so i gave it s shot, but i failed02:16
iDonttimeless_webchat: and i'd like to know why, so i asked here02:17
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iDontjavispedro: dunno about stability in 2.6.2x series, but i wanted to give it a shot ;)02:17
jacekowskino ext4 support in kernel02:17
iDontjacekowski: i've said earlier i had compiled support in02:17
iDonti would really like to know what went wrong, everything looked good02:18
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andaxi want ibm's jfs instead ext4, it was supported in mandrake linux since 199902:19
* cehteh uses ext4 since march or so .. not a single problem reported by fsck02:19
Jef91So before I go through and manually fix hundreds of calender entries - is there a fix to remove the "daylight savings time adjustment" on my n900 calender?02:19
TermanaiDont, I bet that's what she said02:19
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iDontTermana: :D02:19
cehtehand by javispedro's rants i'd say he is just guessing but not using it02:19
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jacekowskiJef91: as far as i know it's storing time in unix timestamp02:20
javispedrocehteh: rants?02:20
cehtehthere are some known problems with ext4 on the .28 kernel02:20
javispedrocehteh: read again my message, I just said exactly the same you have just said.02:20
cehtehbut these are not that dramatic .. considering all the other bugs the device has02:20
jacekowskiJef91: so if you would play with /etc/localtime to pass different time to calendar you could fix it there02:20
jacekowskiJef91: but that's complicated02:20
jacekowskiJef91: but i'm not sure what is your problem02:21
Jef91jacekowski this is the worst fucking feature EVER. It has the right date for things before this past saturday02:21
cehtehsidenote that ext4 gives a noticeable performance improvement02:21
Jef91All the dates after this saturday are an hour too soon02:21
jacekowskiJef91: that shouldn't happen02:21
iDontcehteh: thats why i gave it a shot :)02:21
jacekowskii can't really imagine how it could be broken02:22
iDontanyway, steps I've performed: compile kernel with ext4 support, cp -a /home/* to microsd ext3 partition, edited genfstab.awk and rcS-late to use new partition as home, reboot, mkfs.ext4 emmc partition, cp -a files back, reverted changed rcS-late and genfstab.awk, reboot02:22
jacekowskievery libc implementation does it correctly02:22
Jef91jacekowski It happened back with PR1.0 as well - last march when the time changed02:22
jacekowski~blame nokia02:23
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* infobot blames nokia (and Canada) for all the evil in the world02:23
chxwhat does it mean if the LED flashes ... blue?02:23
chxnever saw this before.02:23
jacekowskichx: message02:23
Termanachx, aliens have come to visit you02:23
chxMessage?????02:23
chxYou mean, SMS?02:23
jacekowskiyes02:23
* chx is shocked02:23
javispedrodoes it flash _any other color other than blue_ at all, when not charging?02:23
ieatlintor im02:23
chxnoone knows this number02:23
ieatlintor email02:23
chxnot even me.02:23
TermanaObviously chx doesn't get a lot of contact from the outside02:23
Termana:p02:23
javispedroindeed.02:23
jacekowskichx: marketing probably02:23
chxoh yes. Wind Mobile wants me to pay.02:24
chxsilly them.02:24
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timeless_webchatchx: it could be a googletalk message02:24
timeless_webchator a jabber message02:24
timeless_webchator a skype message...02:24
chxright, right02:25
javispedronot with the default configuration02:25
javispedrowhich for some reason disables leds for IM...02:25
javispedroand email.02:25
andaxchx: money makes the world go round (or so they say)02:25
chxAnother lame question, can i get rid of the icons in the menu i do not need?02:25
timeless_webchatjavispedro: too expensive on battery? :)02:25
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timeless_webchatchx: you could use catorize02:25
chxandax: yeah but i do not pay my phone bills, there is an office manager for that.02:25
javispedrotimeless_webchat: might be an actual reason02:25
jacekowskichx: apmefo02:25
chxapmefo says "create subfolders"02:26
chxi saw that02:26
chxthat does not sound like a menu eidtor to me?02:26
jacekowskithen you can create subfolder "useless shit"02:26
jacekowskiand drop your stuff there02:26
* timeless_webchat would call it ',' instead of that, but :)02:26
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jacekowskithat's what makes us different02:27
jacekowskiand other stuff as well02:27
andaxchx: ~ # apt-get install office-manager o_O02:27
chxLOL02:27
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chxbtw is it just me or witter eats battery for breakfast?02:28
andax^ great timing lolloo :)02:28
jacekowskichx: try gps at the same time02:28
jacekowskichx: you can probably drain battery in less than 45 minutes02:28
lolloohey andax!02:28
lolloohey all!02:28
chxjacekowski: lol02:29
andaxhey lolloo :-)02:29
javispedro45 minutes?? red hot02:29
lollooI got meego runing on my phone!02:29
jacekowskigps + internet + little bit of OC02:29
lolloobut terribly slow!02:29
jacekowskiand it's gone02:29
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jacekowskifmtxd uses a bit as well02:30
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lollooI hear that N9 will be using MeeGo!02:30
jacekowskiyep02:30
jacekowskimaemo is abandoned02:30
lolloobut I dont like the design of the phone!02:30
jacekowskin900 was first and last phone with maemo02:31
lolloomaemo is great in my thoughts!02:31
TermanaFuck me02:31
jacekowskii would really like to see a phone with SAW screen02:31
TermanaI'm just going to go die in a coffin02:31
TermanaExcuse me02:31
andaxjacekowski: next probably has a adobe/microsoft OS02:31
lolloolol @ Termana02:31
lolloois there any apps that benifit from QT?02:32
lollooon N900 I mean.02:32
chxthere are a few, i saw a QT Web twitter app02:33
tripzeroother than all the benefits of Qt, no02:33
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tripzeromy apps on maemo use qt02:33
tripzeroall of them02:33
lolloowow02:33
lollooHow so?02:34
tripzero(meaning, all the ones I wrote)02:34
chxooooh installing this app caused it to reread the menu file i edited in xterm.02:34
alteregotripzero: I was gonna say ;)02:34
chxWIN.02:34
tripzeroalterego, well yanno... i rewrote hildon and stuff02:34
lolloohehehe02:34
alteregoAll of the apps I've wrote/write are in Qt too ..02:34
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tripzeroin QML!!!eleven1102:34
alteregoThat need a UI that is.02:34
lolloowow aseosme02:34
lolloowould you kindly share?02:35
alteregoMy apps?02:35
alteregoNope :P02:35
lolloohehehe02:35
chxwait someone ported stratagus to maemo?02:35
alteregoWell, one is in extras, the others are wip02:35
tripzeroextras-devel ftw02:35
TermanaEverything is on extras-devel02:36
* lolloo checking02:36
TermanaYour mum is on extras-devel02:36
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chxIs there a Civilization clone?02:36
chxPopolous?02:36
lolloohehehe old joke!02:36
tripzeroTermana, beat me to it!02:36
* chx is very old fashioned game wise.02:36
chxsimply put... dosbox???02:36
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tripzerobut what's a 'mum'?02:37
andaxchx: freeciv02:37
javispedrosomeone ported Extras-devel to Maemo. But then he died in a coffin.02:37
chxhey, i was kidding with dosbox.02:37
chxo_O02:37
lollooha!02:37
chxthat's... that's...02:37
nox-hm didnt i see a bochs `somewhere'?02:37
Termananox-, yeah bochs is in there02:37
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Termanabut bochs is slow02:38
nox-(not that it will be fast but... :)02:38
nox-yeah02:38
chxdid someone port Windows 7 for kicks?02:38
lolloowhen will they fix portiat mode in N900!02:38
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nox-dosbox needs a x86 cpu02:38
lollooits hurting my sole!02:38
Termananox-, qemu is much better, too bad no one has compiled it directly for Maemo though. Usable in a chroot though :p02:38
tripzerololloo, it is fixed... in meego02:38
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chxnox-: http://maemo.org/packages/view/dosbox/02:38
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lollooyour correct tripzero02:38
chxnox-: it looks like it doesnt.02:39
lolloojust kind of wished on Maemo too!02:39
tripzeroalso, it's really easy for apps to switch back and forth between potrait and landscape in maemo02:39
andaxchx: i tried freeciv, works on n900 but is a bit complcated compared to playing on the desktop..02:39
tripzero...using Qt02:39
nox-chx, wow02:39
tripzeroapparently not many apps take advantage of it though02:39
nox-chx, does that jit like qemu too?02:39
javispedronox-: partially.02:39
tripzeroi've had the homescreen get stuck in portrait mode once.  total b0rkage02:40
NirtalHello! Does anyone knows if it's possible to make calls from my computer though my n900. Using the computers headphones and mic to talk02:40
lollooyes tripzero02:40
lollooit happened to me all the time02:40
andaxchx: recommend to use smallest map (turns are getting slow in the end and the screen size is rather small for such game)02:40
lollootoo good to be true!02:41
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tripzeroNirtal, look at ssh and the dbus-send commands for making calls02:41
Nirtalok02:42
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tripzeroNirtal, in other words, yes, it is possible02:42
andaxNirtal: something like skype?02:42
cehtehthanks for the hint about the easy-debian swapon .. that works, having 2 swaps with equal priority now .. lets see how this works02:42
tripzeroNirtal, however, you may end up needing to use bluetooth headphones/mic02:42
Nirtalyes, but with my telephone :P02:42
NirtalI got bluetooth on my computer02:43
DocScrutinizercehteh: you'll cry02:43
tripzeroyou want to configure bluez to use connect hsp/hfp to the phone02:43
alteregoHeh02:43
cehtehlets see02:43
NirtalAnd while I'm home, I wan't to use my headphones and microphone in my computer to talk in the phone02:44
* javispedro agrees you'll end up crying02:44
cehteh cat /proc/swaps02:44
cehtehFilenameTypeSizeUsedPriority02:44
cehteh/dev/mmcblk0p3                          partition78642466140102:44
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cehteh /media/mmc1/.swap                       file262136141252102:44
tripzeroNirtal, ^^ see my last comment if you missed it02:44
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NirtalDidn't miss :P02:44
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cehtehlets start fennec :)02:45
tripzeroNirtal, also check out ofono02:45
tripzeroyou can use ofono on your computer and use the n900 as a mode (hfp bluetooth profile)02:45
tripzeros/mode/modem/02:45
infobottripzero meant: you can use ofono on your computer and use the n900 as a modem (hfp bluetooth profile)02:45
tripzerothat's actually probably the easiest way02:46
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Nirtalok02:46
Nirtalthnx02:46
tripzeroofono.org02:46
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alteregoThat's cool.02:46
javispedroaren't you completely overcomplicating stuff02:46
* DocScrutinizer feels headache coming02:47
Nirtalbtw, how do I display all files some package installed?02:47
alteregoI wanted to do the same yesterday ..02:47
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alterego(Use laptop as speaker phone for N900)02:47
javispedroI think I already said this but... I clicked on "Use my laptop as speakers for my phone" on Windows 7 and it all worked.02:47
javispedroIt also has a textbox for dialing numbers.02:47
javispedroso, the N900 is not a weird phone in this regard.02:48
javispedrono need for ofono.02:48
tripzerooh, i assumed he meant linux desktop02:48
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tripzeronot windows...02:48
tripzerocuz i forget that people still actually use windows02:48
tripzerolike javispedro02:48
* tripzero hides02:49
iDonthehe02:49
javispedroeven on linux desktop, just by connecting it via usb you can already hook to pnatd and start sending ATDT commands.02:49
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javispedro(what do you think ofono does???)02:49
tripzerojavispedro, yep, just cat the right ATDT commands and "win"02:49
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tripzerojavispedro, setting up the bluetooth connection to hsp?02:49
tripzeroerr hfp?02:49
chxHM original Warcraft II CD and Battle.net edition does not work??02:49
javispedrotripzero: why ofono should do that? it's supposed to be a gsm stack, not a bt stack.02:50
tripzerojavispedro, it does both02:50
tripzeroit uses bluez02:50
tripzerofor hfp modems02:50
DocScrutinizer*COUGH*02:50
javispedrothis makes no sense.02:50
DocScrutinizer(ouch, that headache)02:50
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tripzerohttp://ofono.org/wiki/hands-free-profile02:51
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DocScrutinizer\o/ freed up 6.6GB on my PC /home, by tgz'ing a folder called Openmoko/images to a dusty partition labeled with a weird "D"02:52
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Nirtaltripzero how can I see what files bluez installed?02:54
javispedropft.http://padovan.org/blog/2010/02/handsfree-profile-into-bluez-and-ofono/02:54
DocScrutinizertripzero: I'd envision sth like: BT-HFP<->ofono<->modem02:54
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DocScrutinizerrather than ofono<->BT-HFP<->modem02:55
tripzerowell, it's actually probably: ofono -> bluez/HFP -> n90002:55
DocScrutinizero.O02:55
tripzeroofono just sees the hfp phone as another "modem"02:55
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DocScrutinizer(yay, that headache geting worse every minute)02:55
* DocScrutinizer mubles 27b/6 27b/602:56
alteregoAh, nice that coffee has kicked in.02:56
DocScrutinizerCOFFFEEEEE!02:57
javispedrogetting rid of pulseaudio is going to become harder every day.02:57
lollooam building maemo on a coffee machine02:57
lolloohehehe02:57
DocScrutinizerit's like trying to get rid of hepa-C02:57
lolloohahaahaaaa02:58
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cehtehopenoffice on the n900 has some wtf factor :P03:00
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lollooits pure amazing cehteh03:00
cehtehi am surprised that it works ..03:01
javispedrowhat the hell is going on on #meego03:01
merlin_1991I gotta try the megoo chroot on the n900 :D03:01
merlin_1991s/megoo/meego/03:01
infobotmerlin_1991 meant: I gotta try the meego chroot on the n900 :D03:01
cehtehfasten seat belts please, starting iceweasel03:02
DocScrutinizercehteh: start and close. then swapoff your swapfile, and do again. time both03:02
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: useless benchmark03:03
alteregohahah03:03
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: you mean I should get my coffee prepared first?03:03
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cehtehDocScrutinizer: didnt you once saied that emmc and uSD are on different busses and thus may scale/interleave a bit better?03:03
javispedroDocScrutinizer: that would work :) but I was telling because second run will be inevatibly faster03:03
* javispedro needs coffee too.03:04
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merlincoreys/regex//03:04
cehtehDocScrutinizer: at least i dont notice it slower now ..03:04
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cehtehjust manually added that swap, nothing persistent yet03:04
alteregoBeen getting a lot of segfaults recently.03:04
alteregoI must be losing the ability to code or something :/03:04
cehtehnot adjusted to the ballmer peak?03:04
alteregoOh, that was just an infinite recursion.03:05
alterego(caused by a search/replace gone haywire) ^.^03:05
* cehteh hands alterego an trampoline03:05
cehtehok closing iceweasel makes my device lag .. but i didnt tied that with normal swap before :P03:06
* DocScrutinizer waits for coffee to kick in, and enlightenment come down03:06
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DocScrutinizerwhy is second call faster?03:06
* merlin_1991 wonders if the guys in here ever sleep03:07
DocScrutinizerexcept for buffers maybe03:07
cehtehsecond call?03:07
timeless_webchatmerlin_1991: nah03:07
cehtehah that03:07
DocScrutinizer <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: that would work :) but I was telling because second run will be inevatibly faster03:07
cehtehyes but there is drop_caches03:07
javispedroDocScrutinizer: buffers, frames will have been evicted to swap partition03:07
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javispedroetc.03:07
cehtehand well with only 256MB true ram, there isnt really any ram wasted for buffers :P03:07
DocScrutinizer(OUCH that headache!!)03:07
javispedrocehteh: serioussssslyyyy if it seems too low for you, you should try a n810.03:08
DocScrutinizeryou don't tell me friggin OS will swap out buffers, do you?03:08
javispedroDocScrutinizer: no, but it will keep fresh, free RAM ready by the second run time03:08
cehtehjavispedro: echo 3 >/proc/vm/drop_caches       case fixed03:09
javispedrocehteh: it's not only about buffers03:09
javispedroyou should also kill both swap partitions03:09
javispedrobut that would also be cheating03:09
cehtehwell possibly you can do the whole testing with a reboot, but that isnt really an use case03:09
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javispedrobecause a) h-d would kill preloaded apps, b) the swap would be free which on the n900 means swapouts will go faster03:10
cehtehlong time behaviour under one or 2 swap files would be the point03:10
DocScrutinizerI'm not interested in usecases. I want to know if swapping got faster03:10
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DocScrutinizerand *how much*03:10
cehtehDocScrutinizer: i am not interested in that :) ..03:10
javispedrobecause the answer is "it didn't"03:10
DocScrutinizeryes03:11
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internetishardis there a music id program for maemo?03:11
cehtehDocScrutinizer: you can raid0 and see .. actually with the power kernel and loopback devices i can do a small test ..03:11
DocScrutinizerI'd expect even with dedicated busses/IFs there's a mutual lock for access to eMMC and uSD03:11
internetishardI was envious when an iphone user started playing a song from his phone after exposing it to a ~4sec clip of that song about 30seconds prior03:11
cehtehloopback devices on files on each .. raid0 that and then dd test it03:11
cehtehDocScrutinizer: yeah can test that with this setup, that takes only a few minutes to setup moment03:12
javispedrocehteh: this is not a PC.03:12
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SpeedEvilinternetishard: As I understand it, that's server based.03:13
SpeedEvilinternetishard: It uploads a clip to a server03:13
cehtehjavispedro: but its still linux03:13
DocScrutinizerwe got even a DMA for transfering blocks from IF to RAM, but I guess it's not a per-IF DMA03:13
javispedroon a PC, a hdd controller using a few unneeded museconds of host cpu time would be frowned upon03:13
DocScrutinizerand I dunno id it's at all used for this03:13
internetishardjust found instictiv, maybe that will work, SpeedEvil03:14
cehtehDocScrutinizer: i am already testing .. wait a minute03:14
javispedroon embedded, it is the rule as long as it saves battery.03:14
cehteh(or more .. writing a 1gb file :P)03:14
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: you get much higher bandwidth dd'ng from both mmc and sd at once03:14
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: closely approaching the uncontended limit03:15
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: sounds nice03:15
cehtehah ok stopping my tests then03:15
SpeedEvilThat's for read03:15
SpeedEvilI don't think I tested write03:15
cehtehok lemme test write .. bah03:15
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javispedro~troll03:16
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, troll is webossucks03:16
javispedrohm...03:17
cehtehDocScrutinizer: btw writing full speed gives slight dropouts while hearing netradio .. less dramatic than 1.203:17
DocScrutinizero.O03:17
DocScrutinizer~troll javispedro03:17
* infobot hereby declares javispedro a troll03:17
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javispedrothere needs to be a way to set per-channel fact-lets on infobot03:18
DocScrutinizer~troll himself03:18
* infobot hereby declares himself a troll03:18
javispedros/fact-lets/factlets03:18
DocScrutinizererr, herself03:18
internetishardIs instinctiv the best song identification app for maemo?03:19
cehtehwriting to uSD gives more dramatic dropouts03:19
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: there is, but you need to talk tim riker into enabling it for your channel03:19
SpeedEviluSD probably has less predictable latency03:19
DocScrutinizerI got it for #openmoko and *-cdevel03:19
cehtehi mean my device is blocked now :P03:20
cehtehgrr :)03:20
DocScrutinizercehteh: that's what I meant03:20
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: does it create an entirely separate database? or is it a per-factlet setting?03:20
cehtehyeah .. unfortunally dd has no --bwlimit :P03:20
DocScrutinizerthere's some ugly nasty bug somewhere, killing device on concurrent IO on both uSD and emmc03:21
cehtehDocScrutinizer: i could even suspect some bug which sends the kernel out for lunch03:21
cehtehyep03:21
DocScrutinizerit has nothing to do with bandwidth03:21
javispedro.oO(probably not a bug...)03:21
javispedrobut a plain limitation.03:21
cehtehok i declare this kernel as dead03:21
cehtehif the kernel hangs its a bug03:21
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: if it were no bug, then device would recover *eventually*03:22
javispedrothere you have. cehteh just answered DocScrutinizer's question about PR1.3 cp big_stuff /sd03:22
DocScrutinizeryeas03:22
DocScrutinizeryes03:22
cehtehnah ... eventually it came back!!03:22
DocScrutinizerthat's what I meant by that's what I meant03:22
javispedroI'm quite sure the kernel doesn't hang. just enters swap hell.03:22
DocScrutinizero.O03:23
DocScrutinizerstill a bug03:23
javispedroin swap hell a thousand daemons will keep him busy for eternity allocating memory!03:23
cehtehnot swap hell didnt swapped much03:24
javispedrodoesn't matter. even if it just tried to swap a bit, which it probably did.03:24
javispedroI'd play with different io schedulers.03:24
cehtehis there mdadm packages .. /me tries03:24
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: on ass rage mode, cp uSD emmc even raped my desktop CPU with wchan 10003:25
cehtehdamn no03:25
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cehtehmhn now i need a female:female dongle to try out hostmode ... :]03:31
cehtehno electronics shop open at night :P03:32
alteregoI got one when I got my N810 all those many many months ago.03:32
cehtehhaha03:32
alteregoActually, it was probably the N80003:32
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cehtehmust D+/D- be crossed?03:33
cehtehDocScrutinizer?03:33
DocScrutinizererr03:33
cehtehi can solder, but i dont know usb specs :)03:34
alteregoHeh03:34
DocScrutinizercehteh: I'd guess no03:34
cehtehnot a single bit :P03:34
cehtehok03:34
alteregoMine doesn't.03:34
DocScrutinizersee wiki.openmoko.org/specialized_usb_cables or similar03:35
cehtehi am too old .. with such hack i am always thinking about a null-modem03:35
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DocScrutinizerhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Specialized_USB_cables03:35
cehtehhell ya .. there was once this guy who made an adapter for PC hard drives for his Atari .. which had the opposite endianess03:36
cehtehjust by flipping the cable :)03:36
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alteregoHeh03:37
cehtehendianess correction in hardware .. today someone would start with some FPGA :P03:38
nox-haha03:39
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alteregoWeird, I wonder why nothing seems to be working now.03:40
alteregoMy app wont even initialize the GPS hardware anymore :(03:40
* nox- was an atari user too back in the days (anyone remember MiNT?) - they had something called acsi (iirc), which could be interfaced to scsi easily enough (i had a 240 M quantum scsi disk in an atari)03:41
Nirtaltripzero still here?03:43
alteregoThis is quite frustrating.03:43
cehtehalterego: C/C++?03:43
alteregoQt/C++03:43
tripzeroNirtal, yeh03:43
tripzerofor a few seconds03:43
Nirtalisn't bluez default bluetooth program in maemo 5 n900?03:44
cehtehalterego: http://lumiera.org/nobug_manual.html  (okok Qt has its own stuff for that iirc)03:44
tripzeroNirtal, yeha03:45
cehtehqt isnt really C++ anymore :P03:45
tripzeroQt has extended C++03:45
NirtalYou mean like i should do something like this, use bluez on my phone as a hfp modem/server and then use ofone on my pc to connect to my hfp?03:45
alteregocehteh: the problem is actually in qt mobility I believe.03:46
tripzeroNirtal, pair your phone up with your computer.  install ofono. use ofono scripts to make phonecalls. profit!03:46
tripzeroNirtal, in short: http://ofono.org/wiki/hands-free-profile03:47
cehtehalterego: no idea, this was just a nice place to put an ad :)03:47
alteregoHewh03:47
Nirtalok, couldn't see any ofone things for windows directly. no precompiled?03:47
tripzerooh, you are using windows?03:47
tripzerodoh!03:47
ieatlintalterego: i have experience this problem with qtmobility/libqtm-location03:47
ieatlintexperienced03:47
tripzeroNirtal, win7?03:47
ieatlintyou're not alone :P03:47
Nirtalyes03:47
tripzeroif so, talk to jacekowski about just making it work03:48
tripzerohe apparently has done it03:48
tripzerogtg03:48
Nirtalok03:48
cehtehn803:48
Nirtalthnx for the help Trewas03:48
Nirtaltripzero03:48
Nirtaljacekowski are you here?03:49
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alteregoieatlint: yeah, I remember someone telling me, I guess it was probably you.03:50
alteregoieatlint: did you get a fix?03:50
muellisofthm. can I make my N900 connect to the Internet via Bluetooth over my other phone? I guess I want the N900 to do DUN with my other phone...03:51
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alteregoMuelli: yes you can.03:51
alteregoThere's a bluetooth DUN package in extras03:51
Muellialterego: nice. I've installed that. How do I use it? *blush* I don't see anything in Settings nor a new application03:52
ieatlintalterego: nope :(03:52
DocScrutinizerNirtal: check backscroll/irc-chanlog03:52
alteregoMuelli: just turn bluetooth on03:53
Muellialterego: nah. I don't want my N900 to provide DUN. I want to make it *use* DUN from my *other* phone :)03:53
ieatlintalthough i can say that the test application i wrote to try and figure wtf is going on has much better reliability than my app where i tried to actually use the data03:53
alteregoMuelli: oh, then you don't need to install bluetooth dun ..03:53
alteregoMuelli: the N900 can do it by default.03:53
Muellialterego: olry?! I thought I had looked everywhere. I haven't a GUI for that yet. Is there any? If so, could me point me to it?03:54
alteregoMuelli: Settings->Internet Connections->Connections->New03:55
NirtalDocScrutinizer any specific word I can search to find?03:55
Muellii know my N810 can... And I guess the Linux on the N900 is well capable of doing that.03:55
Muellialterego: that fires up the WLAN wizard. In the second page, I can't select anything else than "WLAN"03:55
alteregoHrm, I might be wrong ..03:55
alteregoMuelli: yeah, just noticed that.03:55
DocScrutinizer[2010-11-09 01:47:47] <javispedro> I think I already said this but... I clicked on "Use my laptop as speakers for my phone" on Windows 7 and it all worked.03:56
alterego:03:56
alterego:(03:56
alteregoSorry, I was obviously mistaken.03:56
DocScrutinizer[2010-11-09 01:47:56] <javispedro> It also has a textbox for dialing numbers.03:56
javispedro... and it all started by right clicking the bluetooth icon on the notification area.03:57
Muellialterego: people apparently have tried that: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=434448&postcount=3 :) Lemme see what I can get from that.03:58
alteregoDocScrutinizer: yeah, I don't use W7 :P03:58
alteregoMuelli: good find.03:59
javispedroMuelli: there's a bluetooth-dun package in extras03:59
alteregojavispedro: he's doing the opposite, he wants the N900 to use another bluetooth modem04:00
javispedroah.04:00
javispedroprobably broken since fremantle..04:01
alteregoMore likely disabled ..04:01
internetishardug04:01
internetishardinstinctiv doesn't recognize shit04:02
DocScrutinizerhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_DUN04:02
alteregoDocScrutinizer: again, it's the opposite, he wants the N900 to use another devices DUN service ...04:03
alterego-_-04:03
MuelliDocScrutinizer: It describes very well how it works on the N810, but not on N900 ;-)04:03
DocScrutinizer if the N900 is not equipped with a data SIM, it may use another GSM/3G phone as a modem to access the network, and act as a Bluetooth DUN client04:04
DocScrutinizer</quote>04:04
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alteregoYou have to take the SIM out to enable that?04:04
alterego:/04:04
DocScrutinizerhaha04:04
Muellinah. I don't buy that. What is a "data SIM" anyway..? It just reads "it may". Which is big euphemism ;-) Of course it "may", if you configure rfcomm, ppp and friends ;-)04:05
alteregoMuelli: agreed ;)04:05
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DocScrutinizerwtf?04:06
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DocScrutinizerwould you please try if N8x0 method to tether a phone to NIT also works on N900/fremantle. Rather than doing linguistic dissect04:07
alteregoDocScrutinizer: we've been through this.04:07
alteregoThere is no option other than wifi04:07
DocScrutinizerduh, aha04:07
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alteregoIf you'd paid attention you would have known this :P04:07
DocScrutinizeryou're sure you paired the device prior to that?04:07
Muelliwtf? Would you read what's been posted twice or thrice by now? ;-)04:07
MuelliDocScrutinizer: twice ;-)04:08
alteregoI have a paired a device.04:08
alteregoWhich has DUN yes :P04:08
Nirtaljavispedro have you succeded in making calls from you computer though the phone?04:08
javispedroyes...04:08
javispedrohowever, a few days ago someone said here that pr1.3 broke his headset04:09
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javispedroso, ymmv04:09
DocScrutinizer:-O04:10
Nirtaljavispedro how did you do?04:10
NirtalHow did you conf you n900, and how did you conf you computer?04:11
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Macerhello04:11
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: ...broke his headset?? how is that? and ...related to "making calls from you computer"04:11
javispedroOn the N900 I had bluetooth-dun; on the desktop I used win7.04:11
javispedroDocScrutinizer: because I guess there's a hidden "with audio coming through desktop spekears" assupmtion there.04:12
Maceromg.. avatar collecters edition?04:12
Macerseriously?04:12
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Macerit is reasons like that... that people pirate movies :)04:12
Nirtaljavispedro do you have anything moore then windows 704:13
Nirtal?04:13
Nirtalsome program to handle it all?04:13
javispedroNirtal: ah04:13
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javispedroNirtal: broadcom stack? not sure, OEM crap. Either way I was using windows client.04:13
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Nirtalok, I install bluetooth-dun. what's the next step?04:15
javispedrotry it?04:17
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javispedroI always tell that story because I didn't have to do a thing. It just worked.04:17
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javispedroIn fact I was booting windows because I wanted to test garminchatd (aka my little program that makes n900 talk garmin protocol)04:18
javispedroand while setting up the serial port profile I noticed the many options on the device page and started testing them.04:18
alteregoHeh04:19
alteregoRight, I think it's time for bed now.04:27
alteregog'night folks.04:27
Termanagood night alterego04:27
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fredrinhay05:00
fredrinhow can i copy contact to simcard?05:00
fredrinnooo you can't05:01
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DocScrutinizer51no you can't (except *maybe* by using gnokii via pnatd - I'd not start to try this. too much hassle)06:01
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VOAhello all06:44
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VOAis it possible to use the n900 wifi to give wifi to the ipod touch while round the city?06:44
nox-i think you need kernel-power for that, and mobilehotspot06:46
VOAso there is no way we can give the ipod touch wifi while round the city using the wifi of n900 maby from usb?06:46
nox-eh?06:47
nox-mobilehotspot is the package name06:48
nox-http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/mobilehotspot/06:48
nox-http://wiki.maemo.org/Kernel_Power06:48
VOAso we install that on n900 and should give power to wifi comunicate ad hoc06:50
VOAwith the ipod touch right?06:50
VOAas i am not expert did i understand right :)?06:52
nox-dunno about adhoc but ap mode should work06:53
VOAi hope it does so i can also have internet on ipod touch everywhere using the n900 wifi :)06:53
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VOAthe mac chan is full of fan boys lol06:56
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DocScrutinizerVOA: what do you want to do exactly? use N900 to access WLAN hotspots, and tether the N900 to iPod via USB?07:26
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DocScrutinizerVOA: or do you simply want to access the internets via N900 GSM, and tether to iPod via WLAN?07:27
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DocScrutinizer~botsnack07:28
infobotDocScrutinizer: :)07:28
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VOAno i wanted a way to have internet on my ipod touch when i am outside07:29
VOAusing n900 wifi07:29
VOAso i can have it round the city on ipod touch also07:29
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OCTOLITHICman... anyone else having problems with nokia PC/OVI suite?07:34
OCTOLITHICI wouldn't have to use this crapware at all if I could do PR1.3 OTA...07:36
VOAi can't wait xmas to get n90007:37
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VOAin comparsion to surfing speed test vs iphone 4 who wins?07:37
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OCTOLITHICwhoever has the better network in your area07:38
VOAi think n900 and ipod touch are a great combo07:39
DocScrutinizerVOA: fine, you answered my A_or_B multiple choice question by repeating your ambiguous definition of your usecase07:40
VOAand is that bad or good and what answers did i give :)?07:40
VOAas i use one as internet tablet and all the linux power it has to offer and one for uber store apps07:41
* DocScrutinizer shakes head with a sad face... "is it just me?"07:42
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VOAmaby you are a fan boy ahha07:43
OCTOLITHICDocScrutinizer: nope :P07:43
VOAi use everything and that what works for me as Bruce Lee sas07:43
VOAsays07:43
DocScrutinizer*sigh*07:43
VOApurism now days dosen't go far integration is the future07:43
DocScrutinizerthanks, I'll use that for this weeks mantra - was desparately seeking for one with such a deep wisdom07:44
VOAnp07:45
OCTOLITHICLet me try something real quick.07:45
DocScrutinizer~xyawn07:45
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, xyawn is nap07:45
DocScrutinizereven infobot thinks I shouldn't participate in this any longer07:46
VOAhi infobot07:50
VOAdoes he reply hah?07:50
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lolloois infobot a bot?07:56
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timeless_webchatinfobot: infobot ?08:24
infobothmm... infobot is in need of training, can someone train me?08:24
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RobbieThe1stinfobot: no08:28
RobbieThe1stDang...08:28
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VOAlelly kelly are my little shoes o yea !08:38
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OCTOLITHICUgh... F**K OVI suite in it's little cornhole... I'm just gonna have to flash this damn thing to get PR1.3... Ugh...08:55
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RobbieThe1stJust back things up and reflash08:56
OCTOLITHICYeah, wouldn't be the first time... I just wish reinstalling everything from the repos didn't take so long.08:57
RobbieThe1stYea, true. I figure it's unavoidable when doing a PR upgrade, other than that though... that's what OS images are for08:58
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OCTOLITHICTrue. I suppose I should use this opportunity to become more familiar with linuix. Although I can't help but feel like I'm missing out. My generation doesn't have to configure thier own kernels or anything. My peers ignorance, MY ignorance, could fill several olympic swimming pools (and then some).09:01
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RobbieThe1stOCTOLITHIC: I know -some- people have upgraded using apt-get dist-upgrade, but I'm not sure on the specifics09:07
RobbieThe1stIn my case, I used it as an opportunity to deal with the "bit-rot" accumulating after who-knows-how many image backup and restore cycles09:08
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OCTOLITHICMmm, I'm sure I could stand to simplify as well. Now that I've lived with this thing for almost a year I should have a better idea about what I will and won't end up using.09:11
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FillinGYup bros, my name str8 cold chilli Tomek B I repp north Phoenix, fill me/ i'ma try 2 be's a rappa n shit, here's some hot beatz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kL9wv3kMSU <-- CHECK THIS HOT SHIT AND TELL ME WHAT U THINK, FEEL ME?09:12
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lucentI feel nauseated. Does that count, spammity spam spam?09:13
Termanalucent, show me on the doll where you felt him09:14
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lucentOCTOLITHIC: it's just a !@#$ computer thing, you know, I think it is not magic after using these computer things for 20+ years09:14
lucentha09:14
* lucent concedes to Termana for-the-win09:15
RobbieThe1st^^09:16
* OCTOLITHIC uses MEMORY OF A GOLDFISH to forget why he was angry in the first place.09:18
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lucentugh I need HANDS OF STEEL to open this lousy cap on a wine bottle09:19
lucentin related to maemo news, I successfully used the power user kernel with aircrack-ng and kismet for some wifi fun09:20
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lucentit's kind of honest-novelty to have aircrack in my pocket.09:21
psycho_oreosbeen there done that09:21
Termanalucent, novelty? You should be cracking some wireless networks son, get some free wifi09:21
Termana:P (I'm kidding actually, but anyhow)09:21
TermanaWiFi is too inconvenient.09:22
lucentyou know for the sake of posturing myself as a ... "law abiding citizen" or community partiticipant, not into bragging about the illicit09:22
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lucentit's just really pleasing to see that the wifi driver had no support, someone said "hey I fixed it, here's the patch", and all now benefit09:23
psycho_oreosI think the wifi chipset has had support since nokia hired a guy to work on it09:24
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lucentI am not clear about injection support, do you know if that facet is working?09:24
psycho_oreosit is working if one gets neopwn v209:25
lucentoh, I will investigate09:26
psycho_oreosand that project has faced lots of scrutinisation that the core dev pretty much decided to drop the project I suspect09:26
crashanddieloads of empty promises and shattered expectations09:27
DocScrutinizer51yo09:27
lucentsad face.09:27
crashanddielucent: the driver is out in the nature09:27
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crashanddiegreetings, DocScrutinizer5109:29
DocScrutinizer51o/09:29
psycho_oreosheh *shrugs* I guess one has to move on, sure it was quite annoying that it seems like what was an epic thing but at the end just seems to be one small step09:30
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khertan Morning All !09:30
lucentI'm still confused by neopwn, it looks like a closed source project?09:31
crashanddiepsycho_oreos: i don't blame the lead anymore, though09:31
crashanddielucent: completely09:31
crashanddiepsycho_oreos: he just tried. Didn't work out, got sick of wasting his time.09:31
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lucentdifficult to believe that it would be linux based, and not be based on existing GPL code (and thus GPL'ed by nature)... or .. what09:32
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crashanddielucent: he's not releasing the GPL code, even though he has to09:32
lucentoh! one of /those/09:32
psycho_oreoscrashanddie, *shrugs* oh well at least he made a dent in the what was supposedly deliberately removed feature (or at least I suspect) so I guess if one were curious enough, in theory could remake one that would be free and open09:33
crashanddiepsycho_oreos: sure09:33
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crashanddiepsycho_oreos: not sure it was deliberately not included09:33
crashanddieerr09:33
crashanddiesorry, early morning, I meant: I'm pretty sure it was not removed, rather never included.09:34
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psycho_oreoscrashanddie, I dunno, not saying that injection support was never added but there was an old blog post detailing prior to PR1.2 that injection was working with power kernel supposedly.. that was later then either not incorporated or was broken and later mended (which did not become part of the released kernel version)09:34
crashanddienha, that's bollocks09:35
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lucentwhat is the test to know if injection is working/09:35
crashanddielucent: inject packets :D09:36
psycho_oreosahh ok *shrugs* at least it seems like injection support can be added in separately, one pretty much just need the right sources and the tarballs to create it.. or so I believe09:36
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* lucent looks on, dumbfounded but willing to learn09:36
psycho_oreosthere's a switch under aircrack-ng binary itself09:36
lucentcrashanddie: i.e. fakeauth or areplay?09:36
crashanddielucent: it's just a matter of grabbing aircrack and -009:36
lucentoh09:36
crashanddietest-ping routers09:36
psycho_oreosbest to read aircrack-ng docs, its very well documented but there's far to many that uses the tools and never bothered to fully read the docs09:37
khertanfinally found a work around for QTBUG-1514009:37
crashanddieanyway, have to go to work09:37
psycho_oreoserr not aircrack-ng binary, aireplay-ng09:37
crashanddiewill be on the other account in half an hour or so09:37
crashanddie'later09:37
lucentI've read the docs, more or less, mostly more09:37
lucentyou're referring to deauth?09:37
psycho_oreoso.O cya09:38
psycho_oreosno injection test09:38
* lucent reads manual page '-0' refers to deauth09:38
psycho_oreoswell with deauth you'd be looking at the same binary anyway09:38
psycho_oreosbut the same binary has switch to test inject09:38
crashanddiewoops09:39
lucentoh -9 then09:39
crashanddienot deauth then09:39
crashanddie-009:39
crashanddie-909:39
crashanddiecrap09:39
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lucentit's okay I'm merely curious about whether I had injection actually going or not09:40
psycho_oreosthere's plenty of switches in aireplay-ng :)09:40
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crashanddielucent: you don't09:40
crashanddieanyway09:40
crashanddielater09:40
lucentcracked my 40-bit wep key and some things appeared like aireplay was actually sending out packets, but I don't know if that meant injection worked09:40
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psycho_oreoswell with injection test you can see that if its actually working, it will say so and if you wanted to doublecheck you can have another boxen running airodump-ng/kismet.. and see all the fake clients trying to auth./assoc. with the targeted AP09:41
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psycho_oreosjust do injection test09:41
* lucent =)09:43
lucentthank you psycho_oreos09:44
psycho_oreosnw09:44
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* RobbieThe1st headdesks - Note to self: Always check that the application you are trying to call -exists- before doing extensive debug work on why it's not working.09:46
RobbieThe1stDoubly so for semi-builtins like "expr"09:47
DocScrutinizer51semi?09:47
RobbieThe1stIt's part of busybox, but requires a symlink or call through busybox09:48
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DocScrutinizer51hmm, that's how messybox does this09:49
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RobbieThe1stYea. And forgetting that you don't have a symlink to it can be -very- problematic. Variables turning up empty, things just blank...09:49
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rasterDocScrutinizer51:  doc! \o/09:51
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timeless_webchathttp://cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?image=23&topicid=340 :)09:53
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DocScrutinizerhi raster09:54
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: set -e09:54
RobbieThe1st?09:55
psycho_oreoshow important are the /sys files under n900?09:55
DocScrutinizer-e  Exit immediately if a command exits with a non-zero status.09:55
psycho_oreosI suppose very? :)09:55
RobbieThe1stThat would be -very- problematic in my case, considering that would mean dropping out of any user-interface without unmounting any and all drives, and ending up hanging...09:57
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: -u  Treat unset variables as an error when substituting. (also strongly recommended :-D )09:57
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: nope09:57
rasterpsycho_oreos:  why?09:57
rasterthey are too big and u want to delete them?09:58
raster:)09:58
RobbieThe1stWell, that would work fine... IF the frigging n900 had a proper framebuffer kernel by default! Instead, I have to work with text2screen for my output09:58
RobbieThe1stRemember: I'm not running inside Maemo. I'm running inside what is essentially a pre-boot environment.09:58
DocScrutinizerdon't see the problem anyway09:59
psycho_oreosraster, I did a dar backup of maemo rootfs, was tinkering around last night and sort of screwed up (it'll boot but with blank screen when X.org is loaded.. So I reflashed it and restored the complete dar file which caused the device to completely malfunction and do several boot loops.. now I'm in the process of sifting through the critical files that shouldn't be overwritten with the files that should be overwritten or otherwise copied to save myself time09:59
psycho_oreos reinstalling everything from scratch09:59
DocScrutinizera properly written program is supposed to catch and check *all* return codes anyway (except malloc)10:00
keriowhy not malloc10:00
DocScrutinizererr, iirc raster convinced me it doesn't make sense as you can't react if you're out of mem10:00
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kerioyes you can10:01
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DocScrutinizerso only thing you can do is exit program, and that's what a malloc failing should do10:01
kerioprintf("OMGWTFBBQ\n"); exit(1);10:01
RobbieThe1stI'm running a large shell-script, written in busybox's ash. As I have no access to stdout/stderr by default(no framebuffer), I can only get return errors and values if I specifically grab that output(e.g. to a file)10:01
DocScrutinizerkerio: no mem10:01
DocScrutinizerprintf will fail10:01
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keriohuh? even if it's compiled in?10:02
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psycho_oreosraster, any ideas/comments? :)10:02
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timeless_webchatsp3000: you awake?10:03
timeless_webchatmy network / dns died, and i can't seem to resolve *.work10:04
kerionokia has a whole TLD?10:04
kerionice10:04
timeless_webchatnah10:05
timeless_webchatbut it does have a policy against disclosing network architecture10:05
rasterppsy sorry .. real life distracting me.10:06
rasterpsycho_oreos: sorry .. real life distracting me.10:06
rasterummm /sys is a virtual fs10:06
Termanatimeless_webchat, does it have a policy about disclosing what isn't in the network architecture? :p10:06
rasterits not real files10:06
rasteru never have to back iot up10:06
rasteror copy things in and out10:06
RobbieThe1stYea10:06
rasterits generated on the fly by the kernel10:06
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kerioso... nokia's internal network does *not* have a TLD10:06
rasterit is just an api (so tospeak) to get information in and out of the kernel10:06
rasterlike /proc10:06
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rasterso dont ever bother backing up or restoring /sys10:07
rasteras writing to files in /sys could do.. bad things10:07
RobbieThe1stsame with /proc and /dev generally10:07
raster(depending on what they are)10:07
psycho_oreosraster, fair enough, I did get lots of errors when trying to do a dar on it, similar with /proc.. So I suppose in theory its best to delete those from de-archived dar file and to exclude them along with /dev /.dev10:08
rasterDocScrutinizer:  well u cant react to general "small malloc" failures10:08
rastereg malloc of a struct, linked lists etc.10:08
rasteru basicall ylose all ability to do any kind of dynamic allocation when u run out of ram for accounting reasons10:08
rasteru cant maintain lists anymore etc.10:08
rasterBUt10:08
rasteru can recover from malloc failures10:08
rastereg if u are trying to malloc 1gb of ram10:09
DocScrutinizersure you can try to catch a mmap10:09
rasterfor lets say... a satellite image of the world u are decoding10:09
rasterthen thats easy to trap and recover from10:09
DocScrutinizeryesyes10:09
rasteras u simlpy fail the loader of that 1 massive 1gb image pixel blob10:09
rasterthats sane to recover from10:09
kerioi want a TLD10:09
DocScrutinizerit's sane to *try* - you'll never know10:10
rasteru cant sanely recover from the general case of malloced structs, strings, lists, hashes etc. that are part of the reality of writing a modern app10:10
raster(of reasonable complexity)10:10
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RobbieThe1stRaster, would you mind please typing "you" instead of just "u"?10:11
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rasterRobbieThe1st: why?10:11
kerioyou should've used "y?" there10:11
* raster wonders if he should come up with an excuse for not having done the homework for RobbieThe1st 10:12
DocScrutinizerraster: the original aspect was you shall check all return codes, and not just ignore everything running hovok. Just for malloc this rule isn't that strict10:12
RobbieThe1stFor one, because it's not English10:12
kerioDocScrutinizer: so i shouldn't use On Error Resume Next? :(10:12
khertanlol10:12
khertanoups wrong windows10:12
DocScrutinizerkerio: ehh??10:13
rasterDocScrutinizer:  oh of course... but... in apps and libs that are already 100,000 lines of code long10:13
rasteror bigger10:13
kerioDocScrutinizer: ;)10:13
rasterand possible every 3rd or 4th line contains a func that could fail10:13
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kerioraster: you check for every one of them10:13
keriosrsly10:13
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rasterand to handle that u have to add another 4, 5 or more liens of code to "unroll and handle the failure"10:13
rastera 100,000 line app becomes 500,00010:13
rasterits unmaintainable10:14
RobbieThe1stYes, which is called "good practice"10:14
rastergood luck with that10:14
raster:)10:14
DocScrutinizerraster: for such things you got traps, catches or whatever your flavour is called10:14
rasterRobbieThe1st: is there a rewuirement that i speak correct queens engllish here and type it perfectly?10:14
rasterooh .. i'm surprised u havent complained about mmy lack of using capitals10:15
rasterDocScrutinizer: good luck in handling all such errors that way10:15
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DocScrutinizerraster: meh!10:15
DocScrutinizerread backscroll10:15
rasteru are half way thru 50 lines of code10:15
rasterthat init some struct u malloced10:15
rasterand mallco more things10:15
rasterand create more objects10:15
rasterthen suddenly u append something to a list10:16
rasterand list node alloc fails10:16
rasteru cant append10:16
rasteru can have a trap10:16
rasterand then what?10:16
rasteru have to reverse back freeing everything u partly allocated/set up10:16
rasterto the parent func10:16
rasterand that parent func has to do the same10:16
rasterand so on10:16
RobbieThe1stThere are a number of things I am bothered by. But using "u" instead of "you" is something that disgusts me. I would be very happy if you took the time to use capitals and actually write out full sentences, but I'll take what I can get.10:16
DocScrutinizerthen the trap handler will aslo throw error. So what?10:16
rasterin the end how do u copy? u need to inform the user "i'm out of memory"10:16
rasterbut i cant alloc memory for the dialog to tell them that10:17
rasterfun!10:17
raster:)10:17
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rasterrunning out of "general case malloced ram" is as good a case for segv or exit as any10:17
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DocScrutinizerraster: what are you high on? didn't we agree on there's no use in catching malloc fails?10:17
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rasteronly the special cases of "i have to alloc a big chunk" like i said before are sanely doable.10:17
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rasterDocScrutinizer: not for your benefit :)10:18
DocScrutinizeryayaYA10:18
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RobbieThe1stIf you are running out of memory, you don't have enough swap.10:18
kerioRobbieThe1st: y u mad?10:18
rasterRobbieThe1st: after enough years writing 10,000's of emails and god knows how much on irc.. i couldnt be bothered.10:18
raster:)10:19
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RobbieThe1stAnd it makes you look like a dumb teenager, to be honest.10:19
rasteri dont much care10:19
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rasteri have no interest in trying to look like anything10:19
RobbieThe1stYou expect people to take you seriously, though.10:19
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rasteri have spent enough of my life living in places that dont speak english as language10:20
rasterand having to make do with whatever form of communication works10:20
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rasterRobbieThe1st: i dont rely on my typing to do that.10:20
rmrfchikraster: how do they use english if not language?10:20
rasterif it was ""My perfect Queens English that You request I use" which i am capable of doing, then it's nothing but a facade.10:20
psycho_oreosthose short words have been spread out to other groups apart from just dumb teenagers :/ even me mum SMS me with short words10:20
kerio*Queen's10:21
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: you have to catch all malloc fails10:21
crashanddie_yeah, but that's because she wants to look like a teenager, psycho_oreos10:21
rasterthe process of captializing and not using shortcuts for "you" like u have nothing to do with having knowledge in a field unrelated to english10:21
toresberaster: It's "Queen's".10:21
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toresberaster: And "You" isn't capitalized.10:21
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: if you live on system with disabled overcommit you are very likely to hit one10:21
RobbieThe1stIt's one thing to be doing the best you can and not getting thing perfect; it's another entirely to deliberately make "mistakes".10:21
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: for what? how?10:21
rasterrmrfchik:  i meant "as a language10:21
rastertypo10:21
toresbeRobbieThe1st: or not bothering to write properly, u no wut i mean?10:21
RobbieThe1stExactly.10:22
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory10:22
crashanddie_though, I think he got the point, and will now make an effort, so we might as well move on10:22
rasterRobbieThe1st: i'm not deliberately making mistakes. i'm just saving time and keystrokes10:22
crashanddie_raster, just make the damned effort.10:22
RobbieThe1stI did that myself, back when I was around thirteen. I learned better, and found that people respected me more for it.10:22
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: and if you disable that linux will not allocate more memory than is avaliable and malloc will start to fail10:22
rastercrashanddie_: nah. i'll pas thanks.10:22
rastererr pass10:22
psycho_oreoscrashanddie_, I'd hate to think of it that way lol.. I hardly ever use short words myself10:22
rmrfchikthe number of keystrokes in the universe is infinite.10:23
jacekowskiMohammadAG51: we have to talk10:23
rasterrmrfchik: the number of hours in a day i have is not.10:23
jacekowskirmrfchik: do you have any proof?10:23
* DocScrutinizer goes MEH and *shrug* and points to scrollback, general nonsense and tmo syndrome, and waves for a goodbye10:23
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crashanddie_raster, if you won't make an effort to respect the people you're communicating with, I think you might be outstaying your welcome in #maemo.10:24
rmrfchikjacekowski: it is by intuition. it is proven (by lispers) that there is unlimited number of parenthesis10:24
rastercrashanddie_: how has that got to do with respecting anyone?10:24
crashanddie_as obviously, it's annoying more than one person10:24
RobbieThe1stIt's one thing to type with short words and missing capitalization on a 10-key phone. It's another to do it when you have a full QWERTY keyboard at your disposal. Even typing properly using the n900's keyboard isn't that hard.10:24
timeless_webchatkerio: to borrow something from someone, i don't know what i don't know, so i can't say for sure that it doesn't10:24
rastercrashanddie_: fyi english isnt my native language10:24
crashanddie_raster, neither is it mine10:24
crashanddie_yet, I make the effort10:24
rasterthat doesnt mean that i must10:25
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timeless_webchatand since i'm not allowed to disclose topology, you should not assume that i'm answering based on not knowing, i may merely be honoring the policy :)10:25
rasterwhere is the set of rules that specify i speak correct english to partake in this channel?10:25
keriotimeless_webchat: since you guys aren't using .work, can i take it?10:25
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crashanddie_raster, feel free to PM me when you're done trolling.10:26
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DocScrutinizer51crashanddie_: feel free to tell us when  you're done with uberruling10:26
timeless_webchatDocScrutinizer: the rule is that strict. failure to do that can result in amusing security holes when your kernel is stupid :)10:26
crashanddie_DocScrutinizer, will do10:26
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jacekowskiraster: you're not speaking correct english when everybody has to try hard to understand what you are writing10:27
kerioooh, *burn*10:27
timeless_webchatraster: use a language which has exception handling...10:27
keriotimeless_webchat: english?10:27
RobbieThe1st:P10:27
timeless_webchatoh, he left?10:27
kerioyup10:27
keriowith a snarky quit message too10:27
TermanaAt least someone told him. That was getting annoying yesterday as well10:27
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* timeless_webchat notes that one should pre-cache the OOM dialog + text10:28
crashanddie_DocScrutinizer, done.10:28
DocScrutinizer51screwit10:28
crashanddie_kerio, PM me the message10:28
keriotimeless_webchat: that doesn't guarantee you'll be able to display it10:28
timeless_webchatRobbieThe1st: i ran out of memory a couple of times yesterday10:28
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RobbieThe1stn900?10:28
timeless_webchatapp hit a 3gb limit. system has 9gb of swap10:28
RobbieThe1stOuch10:28
RobbieThe1sthm...10:28
RobbieThe1stYea, I guess that -would- be a problem10:28
crashanddie_lol, 9gb of swap10:28
Termanatimeless_webchat, how much actually memory do you have in that system?10:29
RobbieThe1stHey, I've got 12GB of swap... But only because I needed 4 for hibernation and wanted to make my 3 raid-5 drives have identical partition tables.10:29
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kerioRobbieThe1st: you could've given it 2gb10:30
keriowell, 2gb for each drive10:30
kerioor 1.(3)gb10:30
RobbieThe1stI wasn't sure if it it would hibernate across multiple partitions - I take it it will?10:30
crashanddie_yup10:30
timeless_webchatcrashanddie_: i'm borrowing the computer10:30
crashanddie_timeless_webchat, not criticising, just finding it funny :)10:31
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timeless_webchatfrade: ping10:31
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timeless_webchator mairas: ping10:32
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mairastimeless, pong10:33
timeless_webchatmairas: i'm having dns issues, does nslookup "ok" work?10:33
* timeless_webchat can't resolve *anything*10:34
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mairastimeless_webchat, oh, that was it... my network connectivity was pretty hosed as well. I just rebooted the computer and got it resolved10:34
mairasI'm not sure whether I was given new servers10:35
timeless_webchathrm10:35
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lardman|homemorning all10:36
lardman|homeX-Fade: ping10:36
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X-Fadelardman|home: pong10:39
RobbieThe1stPing10:40
lardman|homehey Neils10:40
lardman|homeI'm getting an error trying to register a project on Garage10:40
lardman|homeERROR: Could not create group: ERROR: value too long for type character varying(255)10:40
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X-Fadelardman|home: Don't write so much :)10:40
lardman|homelol10:40
lardman|homewhich field?10:40
lardman|homeah, doh!10:40
X-Fadelardman|home: Well some field with more than 255 chars ;)10:41
X-Fadelardman|home: And it is not the description.10:41
lardman|homeI see now, is it not possible to limit the web input field to 255 chars?10:41
X-Fadelardman|home: I'm sure it is. But this garage thing is a bit of an ugly beast :)10:41
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lardman|homesure, sorry to disturb, should have read the description first10:42
lardman|home:)10:42
X-Fadelardman|home: No problem :)10:43
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lardman|homeX-Fade: can I also remove some Garage projects?10:45
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lardman|homeI couldn't see a way in the web interface10:45
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X-Fadelardman|home: no, I don't think so. I can though.10:47
lardman|homeok not important, I'll make a list and email you10:47
lardman|homejust thought I should clear out some stuff I never got round to doing much/anything on10:48
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phellarvAnyone remembers hot to turn off the automatic update-check?10:54
timeless_webchatphellarv: why does it bother you?10:55
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iDontphellarv: http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Disabling_Auto_Updates_Check10:55
phellarviDont: Thanks10:56
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iDontnp10:56
phellarvtimeless_webchat: Because I don't use appman - I do it the shell way, and do not want blinking things in my GUI10:56
* DocScrutinizer points out there's an /ignore command which *EVERYBODY* is free to use (except OPs, regrettably) - so WTF is going on in this chan?10:57
phellarvDocScrutinizer51: Bad morning?10:57
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DocScrutinizermight get one - not sure if for me or for somebody else10:59
* phellarv yanks out the popcorn and finds a comfortable spot to watch from.10:59
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timeless_webchatX-Fade: would you ever describe a program which ended with SIGSEGV or SIGILL as having "aborted"?11:02
togglesanyone with n900 using bt audio in the car? what's the best way to connect? seems a pain to menu->bt->device->edit->connect11:02
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johnxtoggles, mine auto-connects to bt headphones11:03
X-Fadetimeless_webchat: Yes.11:03
jacekowskiit should autoconnect11:03
lardman|hometoggles: should auto connect if paired shouldn't it?11:03
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timeless_webchatX-Fade: interesting, can you explain?11:04
X-Fadetimeless_webchat: All depends on who you are talking to. For non tech people, I think aborted is fine.11:05
Termanatimeless_webchat, I would call it "taken a choice"11:05
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jacekowskitimeless_webchat: on windows i think they use "executed illegal operation and had to be stopped"11:06
timeless_webchatX-Fade: interesting11:06
timeless_webchatcan you point to a normal application which does this?11:06
togglesjohnx lardman|home: i'd have thought but it's not working right, might be the car11:06
togglesthanks11:06
Termanajacekowski, if people didn't view illegal things in their programs it would do this! :p (I'm kidding, obviously)11:07
johnxtoggles, you might be able to do it with dbus-send, then make a launcher for that11:07
togglesthanks11:07
timeless_webchatjacekowski: yeah...11:08
timeless_webchatsadly i'm limited to roughly 12 characters11:08
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jacekowskiepicly failed11:09
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Termanatimeless_webchat, what about, terminated?11:09
lardman|homeurgh, this python scripting is confusing11:09
lardman|homethat is calling python from within C++11:10
Termanatimeless_webchat, even better, Termanated11:10
timeless_webchatTermana: my initial suggestion was Unexpectedly terminated11:10
timeless_webchatthat's too long11:10
timeless_webchatas an impl detail, there's a TERMINATED terminal state which is totally unrelated11:10
jacekowskilardman|home: any interaction between dynamicaly typed and strictly typed languages is evil11:11
lardman|homejacekowski: but useful nevertheless11:12
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jacekowskilardman|home: wher11:12
lardman|homecasting a pyobject pointer to a C++ class is what I'm umming and arring about atm11:12
jacekowskiwhere*11:12
lardman|homembarcode11:12
lardman|homebut am using the code in web2sms as a basis11:13
jacekowskiwell, problem is what if your structure decides to change11:13
jacekowskior python interpreter decides to do some weird optimisations11:13
jacekowskiand structure doesn't match anymore11:13
lardman|homewell the Python-side class definition should be fixed, no idea about the optimisation bit, but hopefully the class itself will remain ok11:13
DocScrutinizer51timeless_webchat: fatality, died11:13
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Termanatimeless_webchat, halted? Otherwise I would probably go with aborted11:14
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johnx"ended early"11:14
johnx"called on account of rain"11:14
DocScrutinizer51crashed11:14
lardman|homeSIGILL stopped play11:15
johnxDied horribly11:15
timeless_webchatDocScrutinizer51: i tried crashed first11:15
timeless_webchatthere were objections11:15
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Derdavidhello! someone there, who knows something about dropn900 connection problems?11:15
DocScrutinizer51there'l always be11:15
timeless_webchate.g. the case includes SIGKILL11:16
DerdavidxD11:16
DocScrutinizer51umm11:16
DocScrutinizer51did the car crash, when you shoot the driver?11:16
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DocScrutinizer51I'd argue it's a 'forced crah'11:17
DocScrutinizer51crash*11:17
johnxcan we do one of those super classy cut-off error messages?11:18
johnxPROGRAM TERMIN11:18
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DocScrutinizerΏ11:22
DocScrutinizerX-[11:22
Derdavidhello xD11:22
lardman|homecu later chaps11:24
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DocScrutinizerȾ11:25
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psycho_oreosߐ11:27
Derdavidhi folks11:28
Derdavid i need some help xD11:28
johnxDerdavid, what's up?11:29
DocScrutinizerhttp://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Skull_and_crossbones.svg&filetimestamp=20100708170328  or  †11:29
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Venemo_N900hey bradas11:34
johnx~seen bradas11:34
johnxno bradas here :)11:35
infoboti haven't seen 'bradas', johnx11:35
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Venemo_N900johnx: ehh11:35
johnx:D11:35
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Venemo_N900johnx: you are not funny, you know?11:35
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johnxI kinda figured. but I'm ok with that11:36
Venemo_N900johnx: ok then11:36
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DocScrutinizertimeless_webchat: http://www.isthisthingon.org/unicode/clipboard.php?add=1001311:37
Venemo_N900what do you guys think, how does this news affect Maemo/MeeGo? http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/nokia-developer-news/2010/11/08/rapid-innovation-for-symbian-platform?utm_medium=email&utm_source=peer360&utm_campaign=FN%5FINFO%5FBLAST%5F11082010?utm_content=FN%5FINFO%5FBLAST%5F1108201011:38
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rangeq/act11:38
rangeSorry.11:38
timeless_webchatVenemo_N900: the relevant paragraphs are the last two:11:39
timeless_webchatFor most of 2010 Nokia has been encouraging developers to use Qt. To show how seriously we take that decision we not only stopped all Nokia development in other frameworks, we committed to redeveloping key Nokia applications and services that weren’t already in Qt.11:39
johnxVenemo_N900, probably very little. I guess it's nice they've standardized on Qt11:39
timeless_webchatNokia has been working hard on developing in Qt, as evidenced by the introduction of Qt Quick, which makes rich, visual applications and services even easier to develop. We are confident that by focusing on Qt and Qt Quick as our sole application development strategy, we will increase the opportunity for developers, constantly improve the experience for users and extend the joy that people get from a single device.11:39
timeless_webchatVenemo_N900: the rest of it is irrelevant to maemo/meego11:39
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: that is good to hear11:39
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: so regardless of their commitment to Symbian, they're continuing to develop MeeGo too, right?11:40
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flexxxvhy, my headset for n900 isn't dedected my maemo. but healthcheck dedect it. what could be wrong?11:43
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timeless_webchatVenemo_N900: you do realize that having to "reaffirm" your commitment means that people think you're dropping something, right?11:43
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timeless_webchatbasically symbian has reached yet another stage/step on the process toward being fully dead11:44
JaffaMorning, all11:44
JaffaDocScrutinizer: pong11:44
timeless_webchatsadly, it's a long road... too long11:44
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: ah...11:44
jacekowskitimeless_webchat: there is nothing wrong with symbian11:44
timeless_webchatjacekowski: sure there is,11:44
timeless_webchatit's called Management11:44
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timeless_webchat:)11:44
jacekowskibs11:45
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timeless_webchatnothing to do w/ the system stack :)11:45
jacekowskiwell maemo managment is worse11:45
timeless_webchatand symbian doesn't have a monopoly on that feature. sadly11:45
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Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: so basically this confirms that Symbian'll be dead?11:45
timeless_webchatVenemo_N900: nah11:45
timeless_webchatit'll die eventually11:45
timeless_webchatsadly it still has years of life left11:45
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Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: well MeeGo is not ready yet to replace it11:46
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timeless_webchatit probably can't die for at least another 8 :(11:46
timeless_webchatwell, s/die/be properly burried/11:46
timeless_webchats/burried/buried/11:46
infobottimeless_webchat meant: well, s/die/be properly buried/11:46
timeless_webchatVenemo_N900: really?11:46
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timeless_webchata stack which hasn't shipped a single product isn't ready to replace something which has shipped millions of units?11:47
* timeless_webchat is shocked11:47
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Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: from what I've seen / heard about it, it will need some more time to get close even to the current Maemo 5 Ux11:48
timeless_webchatVenemo_N900: seems like a reasonable conclusion11:48
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Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: :)11:49
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DocScrutinizer11:50
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: ping timeout11:50
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: I think it was about NB#16119111:51
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PontusOhmanCould anyone please explain why I get this: Error opening file '/media/Nokia N900/.documents/Comics/Name of the comic.cbr': Input/output error11:55
crashanddie_PontusOhman, doing what, exactly?11:56
crashanddie_making cakes?11:56
PontusOhmancrashanddie_: Was going to move over some comics to my N900, but when I paste them on the device I get that error11:56
johnxso this is an error displayed on your linux desktop?11:56
johnxrun 'dmesg' in a terminal and put the output on pastie.org11:57
crashanddie_PontusOhman, I'm guessing /media/Nokia N900 is mounted to /home/user/MyDocs/?11:57
PontusOhmanjohnx: > No error on the dmesg11:58
johnxso your file manager in linux says io error, but dmesg doesn't>11:59
johnx?11:59
Corsacgrmbl, do we really have to run make check in po?11:59
CorsacI hate when there are issues with applied patches and .pc folders ><11:59
PontusOhmanjohnx: > I tried to copy a .cbr file from a folder on my desktop on my Ubuntubox, but when I wanted to paste it on the device I get that error.12:00
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johnxPontusOhman, yes. so what you're saying is that nautilus gave you an io error, but dmesg doesn't have anything suspicious. I suspect some problem in nautilus12:01
PontusOhmancrashanddie_: > The device is set to "mass storage mode"12:01
PontusOhmanjohnx: > I know the files is working, because I use comix to read them ^^12:02
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crashanddie_do you have enough free space?12:02
PontusOhmancrashanddie_: > uhhhm... Over 20 Gb is free on the device so yeah ;)12:02
johnxPontusOhman, ok. so is there anything in dmesg on the N900?12:02
PontusOhmanjohnx: Nope, no errors12:02
RobbieThe1stCan you create a folder on your n900?12:04
RobbieThe1st.i.e. is it mounted readonly?12:04
PontusOhmanRobbieThe1st: > I can create and paste other files on the device, but no .cbr files12:05
johnxPontusOhman, I blame nautilus. try cp12:05
johnxprove me wrong :)12:05
RobbieThe1stYea12:05
timeless_webchatwhat's a .cbr?12:05
RobbieThe1sta .rar file renamed12:06
keriojacekowski: you mean that c++ is dynamically typed and python is statically typed right?12:06
RobbieThe1stand generally filled with comic images12:06
PontusOhmanjohnx: Will try that :)12:06
PontusOhmanhang on12:06
jacekowskikerio: yes12:06
Venemo_N900kerio: isn't it quite the opposite?12:08
kerioVenemo_N900: huh? no12:08
Venemo_N900kerio: c++ was statically typed last time I checked12:09
kerioany conversion (except between *some* numeric types) must be explicited12:09
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kerioand objects belong strictly to one type and one type only12:09
PontusOhmanjohnx: > Can't even do a cp of the file :O12:11
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johnxPontusOhman, eh?12:11
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PontusOhmanjohnx: cp: cannot create regular file12:12
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johnxand it's only for that cbr file?12:12
PontusOhmanIt's for all cbr files12:12
johnxtry copying a different file of similar size into the same place12:13
johnxalso, try copying your cbr file onto a different place on your computer12:13
PontusOhmanjohnx: > Tried a .jpg file in to that folder with no luck :S12:14
PontusOhmanProblem solved :D12:14
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johnxwell, gotta find out *why*, but at least some of the mystery is gone12:14
johnxjust start picking away at variables until you only have one :)12:14
Termanakerio, exactly. It is statically typed.12:14
crashanddie_PontusOhman, what are the perms on that directory?12:14
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* timeless_webchat ponders12:15
timeless_webchat(Pass 4) identifier 930700 [kernel] of 187 / 673 files...12:16
PontusOhmancrashanddie_: > Removed that folder and maked a new folder in the root :)12:16
PontusOhmanthx for the helt anyway :)12:16
crashanddie_"in the root"?12:16
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timeless_webchatsibling of .documents/ ?12:17
johnxPontusOhman, sure. I would run fsck on that fs and backup any files, just in case12:17
Venemo_N900kerio: C++ (pronounced /siː plʌs plʌs/ see plus plus) is a statically typed, free-form, multi-paradigm, compiled, general-purpose programming language.12:17
kerioTermana: i was talking about python :<12:17
timeless_webchatfwiw, we're talking about fixing the ".<stupid>" naming convention12:17
Venemo_N900kerio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B12:17
kerioalso buzzwords12:17
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TermanaDesirekerio: read what you said you were talking about c++12:18
crashanddie_timeless, that'd be nice12:18
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crashanddie_[11:06:10] <kerio> jacekowski: you mean that c++ is dynamically typed12:18
TermanaDesireThat it both me and Venemo_N900 must be blind12:18
timeless_webchatit'll be fun to see what breaks12:18
TermanaDesireOr*12:18
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Venemo_N900kerio: also, Python is dynamically typed12:18
Venemo_N900kerio: read Wikipedia12:18
TermanaDesireVenemo_N900: Wikipedia. Ha! ;p12:19
* crashanddie_ goes to change Wikipedia to say that Python is statically typed language12:19
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Venemo_N900crashanddie_: lol12:19
TermanaDesirecrashanddie_: you are evil sir ;p12:19
Venemo_N900kerio: for the definition of what it means, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamically_typed#Dynamic_typing12:20
Venemo_N900kerio: all interpreted languages are dynamically typed12:21
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lcukVenemo_N900, BASIC historically used static types and that is interpreted :P12:22
Venemo_N900kerio: A programming language is said to be dynamically typed when the majority of its type checking is performed at run-time as opposed to at compile-time.12:22
timeless_webchathrm, isn't there an interpreted C that's statically typed?12:22
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timeless_webchatlcuk++12:22
keriointerpretd C?12:22
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keriofor the complications of compiled languages and the speed of interpreted languages?12:22
timeless_webchathttp://stackoverflow.com/questions/376611/why-interpreted-langs-are-mostly-ducktyped-while-compiled-have-strong-typing12:23
Venemo_N900since in interpreted languages type-checking occours at the runtime, they can not be statically typed12:23
lcukthe variant datatype is my understanding of dynamic typing - a box you dont know what it contains12:23
keriolcuk: C has void*12:23
timeless_webchatVenemo_N900: read the link above12:23
timeless_webchathttp://www.softintegration.com/products/chstandard/download/12:24
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: sorry, I did not talk about compiled vs interpreted12:24
timeless_webchatCh is a C interpreter :)12:24
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: I of course agree with the SO answer12:24
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crashanddie_lcuk, rather bubblewrap, it can contain anything, and when required you can look at it to see what shape it has12:26
keriocrashanddie_: and it's also more resistant to mishandling12:27
crashanddie_it's also less resistant to sloppy coding12:27
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kerio*pop* *pop* *pop*12:27
crashanddie_if you can turn an int into a string without casting, sure, it's handy, but it's hell to discover your problems the day you have them12:27
keriooh, that's just awful of course12:28
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lcukcrashanddie_, nice analogy :) unwrapping the coating takes time as well12:28
crashanddie_indeed :)12:28
crashanddie_and the kids love it12:28
kerio("3" + 4 will result in a TypeError in python)12:28
* timeless_webchat boggles12:30
timeless_webchatit seems i hadn't received italian spam before12:30
crashanddie_kerio, in PHP: <?php echo "lol: " . 5; ?>12:30
Venemo_N900kerio: yeah, but it occours at the runtime, not at comple time12:30
keriowell, there's no compile time :)12:30
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Venemo_N900kerio: which means that type checking occours at runtime12:30
kerio(technically the code *is* compiled, but not in that way)12:30
Venemo_N900kerio: thus, it is dynamically typed by definition12:30
kerio:<12:31
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crashanddie_kerio, I'm going to have to ask to hand in your IRC argumentalist card12:32
RobbieThe1st:P12:33
crashanddie_kerio, you've just been beaten on a technologically complex field that transcends difficult-to-type words by someone on his N900.12:33
johnx(or looking at it another way, he caused someone on his N900 to waste time typing long words)12:34
* johnx sleeps12:34
* kerio swaps his IRC argumentalist card with his IRC troll card12:34
RobbieThe1stToo true12:34
kerioreally though, python doesn't do dynamic typing like other languages12:35
RobbieThe1stThat's for sure12:35
RobbieThe1stPHP's awesome that way. Python... Not so much12:35
keriowhat12:35
crashanddie_RobbieThe1st, you just lost all the cards you ever earned by saying the above.12:36
* achipa segfaults12:36
FireFly|n900No love for JS?12:36
RobbieThe1stWhat's wrong with PHP?12:36
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kerioFireFly|n900: if JS pulled his shit togheter and stabilized on a common DOM standard it would be MUCH better12:36
keriothe prototyping system is cute12:36
Venemo_N900kerio: seems that you don't understand what it means12:37
keriobut if your UI will be inside a browser and you have no standard way to access it...12:37
RobbieThe1stI've used it for all manner of thing's it was never intended for... like an IRC bot, all sorts of command-line scripts.... Then I switched to linux and used the shell instead.12:37
FireFly|n900Isn't DOM standardised? Not implying all vendors follows the standards, but.. yeah12:37
Venemo_N900kerio: None of these terms are connected in any way with the number of implicit conversions available in a language.12:37
FireFly|n900Also, to be honest I prefer the way prototypes work in Lua.. much cleaner12:37
crashanddie_RobbieThe1st, PHP is a shit language, built from duct tape residues and coke (as in soda)-fueled evenings by teenage boys in their underwear12:38
Venemo_N900FireFly|n900: I don't like JS, but with some jQuery, it becomes less of a pain12:38
crashanddie_RobbieThe1st, it has no logic, no complete architecture, no decent object model12:38
keriocrashanddie_: well at least it's turing-complete12:39
Venemo_N900crashanddie_: PHP is good for what it was designed to do12:39
FireFly|n900Venemo_N900, I like JS, and I prefer it vanilla :312:39
crashanddie_RobbieThe1st, str_*/preg_* functions: sometimes the needle is the first argument, sometimes it's the second. The OO modeling is a mess, with no possibility to do proper polymorphism and complex inheritance.12:39
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Venemo_N900crashanddie_: I would never use PHP for anything, but that is because of my personal preference12:40
crashanddie_Any language where the standard functions are so implicitly abhorred by every coder who comes along, and the first thing they tell themselves "I need to write myself a decent framework to use this language" is flawed to begin with.12:40
Venemo_N900FireFly|n900: well jQuery does a lot of things... saves me lots of typing12:40
Venemo_N900crashanddie_: hehe12:41
timeless_webchatcrashanddie_: C?12:41
crashanddie_Case in point, how many PHP frameworks are there? CakePHP, CarbonPHP (which I developed), CodeIgniter, Zend, Yii, Symfony, PHPDeVShell, Prado, Akelos, QPHP, ZooP12:41
RobbieThe1stI quite like it though - It's easy to write scripts, is entirely lax about whitespace, and relatively simple to work with. Javascript I also like... But not nearly as much, due to no proper documentation, and poor error debugging12:41
FireFly|n900Venemo_N900, GUI designers have this awesome concept to reduce the typing even more...12:42
FireFly|n900I'm sure jQuery is great for some things12:42
crashanddie_PHP HAS GOOD ERROR DEBUGGING? LOLWUT?12:42
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Venemo_N900crashanddie_: well I know about lots of guys who earn a fortune with PHP12:42
FireFly|n900And it's neat that it wraps stuff like XHR12:42
Venemo_N900FireFly|n900: indeed, they just generate awful code12:42
RobbieThe1stIt does. I make a mistake and I get "error x on line y".12:42
edheldillike Zoidberg ... errr. Zuckerberg :)12:42
crashanddie_Venemo_N900, I also know a lot of girls who earn a fortune by being prostitutes, doesn't make any of them righteous. Or should we talk about bankers?12:42
Venemo_N900FireFly|n900: I like its effects and UI library the most12:42
Venemo_N900crashanddie_: good point12:43
RobbieThe1stPHP has, if nothing else, an excellent manual with examples of all sorts of things. With javascript, the best you get is half-a-dozen poorly written sites each with different explanations of what should work and what does. Oh, and sites still talking about IE-only stuff12:43
Venemo_N900crashanddie_: btw, the fact that you a lot of those girls, tells something about you :P12:43
FireFly|n900Venemo_N900, the problem with people who learns jQuery as their first "language" is that they don't understand what their function calls does, repeating CSS selectors one after another12:43
crashanddie_RobbieThe1st, if you want a good manual, try Java, or even Perl. Those manuals are miles ahead of PHP12:44
Venemo_N900FireFly|n900: that is true12:44
FireFly|n900Which leads to slow, hard-to-mantain code12:44
FireFly|n900But I'm sure it has its uses, if used correctly :)12:44
Venemo_N900FireFly|n900: agreed :)12:44
crashanddie_anyway12:44
crashanddie_old flamewar12:44
crashanddie_I've been a PHP user for quite a few years, I've even committed patches and stuff12:45
crashanddie_but the devs are wankers12:45
crashanddie_who spit on you as soon as you raise questions about the security of the language12:45
Venemo_N900crashanddie_: Qt's docs are also very good, so are the MSDN docs12:45
crashanddie_indeed12:45
crashanddie_anyway, lunch with gf, later12:45
timeless_webchatmsdn docs are good12:45
timeless_webchatnot sure about Qt docs12:45
Venemo_N900crashanddie_: good apetite12:45
timeless_webchatenjoy lunch12:45
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: so far, I found what I was looking for in the Qt docs12:46
RobbieThe1stQT's docs are... fairly good. I did(am) run(ning) into issues with translating from QT to PyQT, and finding proper examples of various things...12:46
kerioi don't believe you'll have lunch, enjoy your passionate sex12:46
keriono, wait, i got that wrong12:46
timeless_webchatRobbieThe1st: =~ s/QT/Qt/g12:46
timeless_webchatQT=QuickTime12:46
RobbieThe1stPeople still use that?12:46
timeless_webchatkerio: lunch [time]12:46
kerioRobbieThe1st: sure12:47
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: MSDN has some things that are ridiculously non-documented though12:47
RobbieThe1stI thought that died back in the '90s, when it had that horrible rounded grey interface and was never compatible with anything and always crashed...12:47
Venemo_N900RobbieThe1st: what?12:48
timeless_webchathttp://www.apple.com/macosx/what-is-macosx/quicktime.html12:48
Venemo_N900unfortunately it hasn't died yet12:49
timeless_webchatsivang: remind me to get a better picture of http://images.apple.com/macosx/what-is-macosx/images/quicktime_player20090824.jpg12:49
RobbieThe1sthttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/QuickTime_7.6.6_for_Windows.png <- and they -still- haven't upgraded the interface!12:49
jogahttp://twitter.com/mikkohypponen/status/193545305797427212:49
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lardmanre12:50
timeless_webchatjorga: err12:50
timeless_webchatthat's the wrong ui12:50
timeless_webchatthey switched to brushed metal (?)12:50
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timeless_webchaterr, not joga , sorry12:53
mecejoga, scary12:54
timeless_webchatmece: not quite accurate12:54
timeless_webchatif you're offline, it asks a question :)12:55
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timeless_webchatit's a "feature"12:55
timeless_webchatoh, and maemo has the same one12:55
timeless_webchatso don't go complaining about apple12:55
mecetimeless_webchat: well that's erm... comforting.12:55
mecetimeless_webchat, it does? funky. Anyway.12:55
timeless_webchatthe apple feature is "don't bother the user from the web browser"12:56
timeless_webchatthe maemo feature is the same12:56
timeless_webchatwhether an app is smart enough to protect its user is thus a per app feature12:56
timeless_webchatham for instance is intentionally not interested in being particularly protective12:56
timeless_webchatthe call app otoh generally requires you to click the green button (gameable -- not actually valid protection)12:57
keriowell, who the hell uses HAM12:57
timeless_webchatkerio: who *uninstalls* it?12:57
kerioi didn't know you could uninstall it :O12:57
timeless_webchatremember, the issue isn't whether you use Y normally12:57
timeless_webchatit's whether someone can convince your device to launch Y *anyway*12:57
timeless_webchatthe same reason you need to update IE on Windows even if you use something else12:57
timeless_webchatsomething might convince your web browser to launch IE12:58
jogaI tried opening that with n900 but nothing happened :)12:58
timeless_webchatjoga: i don't think we register skype:12:58
timeless_webchatbut we could12:58
timeless_webchatmy point is that from the protocol stack level, we're no different than apple12:58
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jogak12:58
timeless_webchatboth apple and maemo leave the dialog in the hands of the third party12:58
timeless_webchatwhich as shown is typically stupid12:59
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: what do you mean, no different?12:59
timeless_webchatVenemo_N900: click on a link to a protocol in your browser on the n90012:59
timeless_webchatwe don't pop up a "do you want to open foo:" dialog12:59
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: oh.12:59
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: okay13:00
timeless_webchatfrom an architecture standpoint, we are not better13:00
timeless_webchatwe're accidentally better for a single one off protocol13:00
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timeless_webchatbut only because of how we integrated them into our stack13:00
Venemo_N900timeless_webchat: what is that single one?13:00
timeless_webchatif they shipped their own skype client, they'd be just as vulnerable on our stack13:01
timeless_webchatskype:13:01
timeless_webchatread the actual report, he isn't complaining about skype:13:01
timeless_webchathe's complaining about apple not guarding against foo:13:01
lcukthats the same for pretty much all protocol links though isnt it?13:01
timeless_webchatand apple is saying it's foo's job to handle foo:13:01
lcukif the machine is configured to open xyz: links using xyz.exe application then, meh?13:02
Venemo_N900heh13:02
timeless_webchatlcuk: desktop browsers tend to ask13:02
timeless_webchatthey have more space for undecipherable messages13:03
timeless_webchatthe reality is that a browser isn't in a position to ask a useful question13:03
lcuktimeless_webchat, tell that to things when I accidentally click mail: links13:03
timeless_webchatit doesn't know if foo: is dangerous or harmless13:03
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lcuki think the problem is more the iframe than anything13:03
lcukevil nasty things ;)13:03
timeless_webchatlcuk: network.protocol-handler.warn-external.mailto;false13:03
timeless_webchatset that to true in your favorite geckos13:03
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lcuki use internet explorer 4.  microsoft told me it was the best and most secure ever.13:04
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lcukmy windows Me installation is so much safer with it13:04
timeless_webchathrm13:04
timeless_webchatunregister mailto: ?13:05
timeless_webchator change it to something which doesn't actually do mail13:05
lcukam joking, already in about:config13:05
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timeless_webchat(Pass 4) identifier 2163300 [libxml2] of 426 / 673 files...13:06
* timeless_webchat sighs13:06
timeless_webchatmerging 673 indexes is not fast13:06
Venemo_N900guys, I have to leave now13:08
Venemo_N900have a good afternoon :)13:08
lardmanhmm, Symbian closed sourced again13:08
Venemo_N900lardman: ???13:09
lardmanhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-1171319213:09
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Venemo_N900is that true?13:09
lardmanor perhaps it's just a shuffling and it will remain open, but directed like Maemo was13:10
Venemo_N900lardman: nothing in that article mentions closed sourcing13:11
lardmanapologies, my jumping to a conclusion13:11
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Venemo_N900lardman: no problem, but it would have surprised me13:12
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lardmanI was just wondering if, as the commentator said at the bottom, they had decided that open sourcing had been a mistake13:13
timeless_webchatwell...13:13
timeless_webchatthe reality is that open sourcing didn't get them much13:13
lardmanyep13:14
timeless_webchatit basically burned X EUR + X man months13:14
Venemo_N900lardman: I don't know, but I don't think so13:14
maybeWTFname change would have been more productive13:14
timeless_webchatmaybeWTF: nope13:14
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timeless_webchatyou can't rename a dog13:14
maybeWTFso all the people with dirty minds didn't have to think twice when mentioning symbian13:14
timeless_webchatit won't wag its tail any better13:14
lardmantimeless_webchat: Symbian in the days of Psion was not so dog like ;)13:14
timeless_webchatthe few people who like it would have a new chance to learn reasons not ot like it13:14
timeless_webchats/not ot/not to/13:14
infobottimeless_webchat meant: the few people who like it would have a new chance to learn reasons not to like it13:14
timeless_webchatbetter to keep loyalty from those who did like the old dog13:15
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timeless_webchatin some ways, it probably helped maemo13:15
timeless_webchatless resources on the symbian side could be effectively deployed to compete w/ us :)13:15
lardmanIs there an article somewhere on what the fundamental limitations of the Symbian platform are? I know people go on about how limited it has become13:15
timeless_webchatlardman: hrm13:16
lardmans/limited/constraining13:16
jacekowskiare they closing it competly13:16
jacekowskior just closing development?13:16
lardmanjacekowski: seems I jumped to a conclusion not supported by the facts13:16
lardmanso we don't know13:16
timeless_webchatproblems in symbian:13:17
jacekowskii mean like in they develop it internally and then release code when done13:17
timeless_webchat1. way too many incompatible ui toolkits13:17
jacekowskitimeless_webchat: linux does same13:17
timeless_webchat2. just because you picked a given ui toolkit didn't mean you could ship to everything that had that toolkit13:17
jacekowskitimeless_webchat: QT, GTK and couple others13:17
timeless_webchat-- because for some reason there were version breaks or something13:17
jacekowskitimeless_webchat: linux does the same13:17
timeless_webchatjacekowski: =~ s/QT/Qt/g13:17
timeless_webchatjacekowski: linux has better apologists :)13:17
jacekowskihmm13:18
jacekowskiSymbian will continue be developed by its community of programmers around the world, but Nokia will now oversee this process.13:18
timeless_webchat3. the memory model was too complicated for poor programmers13:18
timeless_webchat-- this doesn't mean that it's better on linux, just that most users are more forgiving on desktop (if they're using linux on desktop)13:18
jacekowskitimeless_webchat: complicated?13:19
timeless_webchat(linux desktop users accept crap, phone users can't afford to in the same way)13:19
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timeless_webchatjacekowski: are you familiar w/ it, or challenging me to be annoying?13:19
jacekowskii'm familiar with it13:19
jacekowskiand i wouldn't say it's complicated13:19
timeless_webchati wouldn't either13:19
timeless_webchatbut that's the standard complaint13:19
jacekowskiwhole idea is different13:19
timeless_webchatit actually makes sense13:19
timeless_webchatbut note i wrote "too complicated for poor programmers"13:20
timeless_webchatnot too complicated for good programmers13:20
jacekowskis/poor/stupid/13:20
timeless_webchatsure13:20
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jacekowskii saw some sad people that have no idea that there is something like pointers13:20
timeless_webchat4. the app store story for Symbian is a trail of tears13:20
timeless_webchat-- i'm not saying it's better on Maemo or Linux in general13:21
jacekowskiwell, first phone with real app store was iphone13:21
timeless_webchatwell13:21
jacekowskithing is that is you keep platform open like that13:21
timeless_webchatnokia had 4 or more different attempts13:21
timeless_webchatDownload!13:21
jacekowskiyou will have alternatives13:21
SpeedEvilwasn't there a palm phone early on with lots of apps?13:21
jacekowskialternative repositories13:21
timeless_webchatwas iirc one of the middle incarnations13:21
SpeedEvilOr at least, that could run palmpilot apps13:21
timeless_webchatSpeedEvil: yes13:21
timeless_webchatjacekowski: i'm explaining the pain points13:22
timeless_webchati'm not saying they're absolutely insurmountable13:22
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timeless_webchatthey're pain points <period>13:22
SpeedEvilWas there a central app-store for that - I forget.13:22
timeless_webchatthey aren't necessarily unique to symbian13:22
* SpeedEvil wonders about an emulated palmpilot that also emulates graffiti13:23
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lardmanapologies, had to talk to someone13:26
timeless_webchat5. symbian signing was a mess13:26
timeless_webchat-- partially due to locking, lack of consistent signature recognition, etc.13:26
lardmanso basically the limitations of Symbian, so far, are replicated in Linux13:26
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timeless_webchat-- again, not necessarily a problem unique to symbian13:26
timeless_webchatlardman: or coming soon!13:26
lardman:)13:27
timeless_webchat6. symbian apis never die (this is a win16/win32 like trait, unlike linux!)13:27
lcuktimeless_webchat, :P when giving lists, use a prefix or a suffix so that we can go back at a later date :P13:27
lardmanwell that and the ui toolkit problem can now be addressed as Nokia pull the strings13:27
timeless_webchatlcuk: yeah yeah13:27
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timeless_webchatlardman: funny13:28
lardmanreally? Why not?13:28
timeless_webchatlet's not go there now?13:28
timeless_webchat7. language support in symbian more or less sucked due to resource constraints on the target devices13:28
timeless_webchat-- not technically a problem w/ symbian as a stack, just a constraint imposed by vendors13:28
lardmanexactly13:29
timeless_webchatbut please remember, we're talking about reasons people don't like writing for it13:29
timeless_webchatthat includes the whole env, not just the theoretical underpinnings13:29
lardmanhorrible syntax13:29
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timeless_webchatif your OS supports 4etabytes of memory13:29
timeless_webchatbut only gives me 640k13:29
timeless_webchatyou don't get credit in my book for the rest13:29
lardmanbut the constraint there is a hw limitation?13:30
timeless_webchattypically yes13:30
timeless_webchatcombined w/ vendors choosing to optimize resources13:30
timeless_webchat8. until recently vendors generally didn't provide OTA updates or service packs or whatever13:31
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timeless_webchat-- this was partially because operators blocked them, not because the updates didn't exist13:31
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lardmanso then that leads me to my next question, what is the appeal, if anything of using Meego rather than Symbian? Other than a fresh start?13:32
timeless_webchatit addresses point 613:32
timeless_webchatand gives people a chance to screw up the other points all over again :)13:32
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timeless_webchatarguably 3 is replaced by a surprise (whether this is good...)13:33
timeless_webchatactually in maemo 5, 3 was replaced by the device swapping to death13:33
timeless_webchat(always a good thing?)13:33
lardmanSymbian supports vitrual memory doesn't it?13:34
timeless_webchatyou didn't generally design a phone to swap to death w/ symbian13:34
timeless_webchatwe did w/ the n900 -- it was a marketing requirement13:34
lardmanI mean I see next to no difference between Linux and Symbian, other than Linux is open source and there's lots of code around (both good things), but that doesn't necessarily make any odds to a phone manuf13:34
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jacekowskilardman: yes13:34
timeless_webchatoh13:35
timeless_webchat9. the TCP stack was "different"13:35
timeless_webchat10. The C library was "different"13:36
lardmantimeless_webchat: the lack of swap death seems to me, based on the Psion days, of careful design for constrained devices - but that may have gone away since then13:36
timeless_webchatlardman: i'm not claiming swapping to death is a good thing13:36
timeless_webchatin fact, i hope based on my description you'll understand it *isn't* imo13:36
lardmanno nor I, but it always seemed to me that Linux was not designed for limited resource devices13:36
timeless_webchatpoints 1-3, 9 + 10 meant that porting software to Symbian was painful13:36
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jacekowskilardman: it's not13:37
jacekowskilardman: i mean kernel can deal with it13:37
timeless_webchatyeah, it isn't13:37
lardmanyes I know that porting pain feeling13:37
jacekowskilardman: but when you use full X with stuff13:37
timeless_webchatnote, i'm not saying porting is impossible13:37
timeless_webchatPutty is ported13:37
timeless_webchatApache was ported13:37
timeless_webchat(by nokia iirc)13:37
jacekowskiiirc Xorg on n900 is using like 70-80M of ram13:37
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timeless_webchati think some of that might be the Display itself13:37
jacekowskiloads of it is resources from applications13:38
timeless_webchatyeah, that too13:38
jacekowskibut WTF?13:38
lardmanWhat I'm trying to establish, in a round about way, is why Nokia have changed the plan re Symbian13:38
timeless_webchatlardman: well13:38
timeless_webchatOpen Source was buzzword compliant13:38
timeless_webchatNokia strives to be buzzword compliant13:38
lardmanlol13:38
timeless_webchatit tends to be a bit late, but it tries13:38
jacekowskidos had 640kb of ram13:39
timeless_webchatbut really13:39
jacekowskiand it was working13:39
timeless_webchatthe reason to open source was to enable nokia to buy out the other shareholders in symbian13:39
jacekowskiwith games and stuff13:39
timeless_webchatit wasn't really for buzzword13:39
jacekowskitimeless_webchat: symbian will still be open source according to that article13:39
lardmanjacekowski: I think timeless was saying that it's all well and good Symbian having a 32bit address space when the hw it was running on had next to no ram13:39
timeless_webchatjacekowski: i'm talking about 200813:39
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timeless_webchatlardman: yeah, i meant that, although i definitely didn't say it :)13:40
lardmanI read between the pixels13:40
timeless_webchatmy belief is that when nokia wanted to get control over symbian13:40
jacekowskiwell13:40
jacekowskin95 had more ram13:40
timeless_webchatit had to promise to the other stakeholders it would open source13:40
jacekowskiand symbian13:40
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timeless_webchatanyway, it's 1:40pm13:40
lardmanah I see13:40
timeless_webchati need to leave if i want to get food13:40
lardmaneat!13:41
timeless_webchatnokia had a couple of strategies13:41
timeless_webchatone was gaining control13:41
timeless_webchatopen sourcing enabled that13:41
timeless_webchatanother was Qt everywhere13:41
timeless_webchatbuying Trolltech and controlling Symbian enabled that13:41
timeless_webchatnote: i've never written apps for symbian13:42
timeless_webchatotoh, i have had a patch committed to symbian :)13:42
lardmanpatching what?13:43
zapIs here anybody who can solve a problem with package autobuilder?13:43
X-Fadezap: sure.13:44
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zapX-Fade: could you please look at the unzip package. I have submited a new version but it doesn't get into -devel after successfuly building13:45
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timeless_webchatoh...13:45
timeless_webchat11. the compiler toolchain story wasn't always wonderful13:45
alteregozap: you have to wait for the importer13:45
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alteregozap: did you get the build successful email?13:46
zapSure, long ago13:47
zapIn fact, I got it first for version -maemo1, then for -maemo213:47
alteregoHow long ago?13:48
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zapyesterday\13:48
zap(-maemo2)13:48
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alteregoHrm13:48
alteregoInteresting.13:48
zaphttp://maemo.org/packages/view/unzip/13:49
zapit could be because the version numeration is different from what was submited earlier by Daniel Mart?n Yerga13:49
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zapthis is a pure maemo package, he submited an adaptation of the debian package (1maemo1)13:50
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alteregoSimple answer .. I'm not sure what's wrong.13:51
lardmanis 6.0-1maemoX > 6.0-maemoX13:51
zapno13:51
alteregoYes13:51
zapI checked with dpkg --compare-versions13:51
zapmaemo1 > 1maemo113:52
alteregoReally?13:52
alteregoCrazy13:52
zap(because 'm' > '1' I suppose)13:52
lardmandepends how the repo filler script works I guess13:52
alteregohuh, oh yeah13:52
zapI tried to submit version 1maemo213:52
zapit didnt get replaced as well13:52
lardmanthat was rejected13:53
X-Fadezap: yeah you created a version number mess. :)13:53
zapnot me :]13:53
zapunzip always used the -maemo# scheme13:53
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X-FadeYou need something which is > 6.0-1maemo1 at least.13:53
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lardmanhttps://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/unzip_6.0-maemo2/summary.log seems ok13:54
zapI submitted -1maemo213:54
zapit didn't worked13:54
zaphttps://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/unzip_6.0-1maemo2/13:54
lardman-1maemo2 was rejected13:54
zapwhy?13:54
lardmanbecause there was a newer version in the repo already13:54
zapREJECTED: The same or newer version (unzip 6.0-maemo1) is already in extras-devel13:54
zapmuhahah13:54
zap:\13:55
lardmanhttp://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/u/unzip/13:55
lardmanit looks like it's in there to me13:55
zaphmm, but the package page doesn't list it13:55
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zapso I can't promote it to -testing13:56
lardmanyes it does, down the bottom13:56
zapI can click on it, but there's no Promote button in there13:56
lardmanyou've already promoted it to -testing afaict13:57
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zaphttp://repository.maemo.org/extras-testing/pool/fremantle/free/u/unzip/13:57
kerioschizophrenia13:57
zapit isn't there13:57
lardmanwell that's a different issue13:57
lardmanX-Fade: how often does the promoter run?13:58
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X-Fadelardman: twice per hour.13:58
lardmanhmm, it has been ~13h since it was promoted13:58
zaphow do you see it has been promoted?13:59
X-FadeIt is probably because of the numbering scheme. Various tools don't like you switching.13:59
lardmanbottom of this page: http://maemo.org/packages/view/unzip/13:59
zapah, indeed13:59
zapwell, I think dpkg --compare-versions is the ultimate judge?14:00
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lardmanprobably should be, but whatever scripts actually do the work may not agree with it14:01
lardmanincorrectly of course14:02
lardmanbut we'll have to wait and see what X-Fade comes up with14:02
zapsure, he's my last hope :)14:02
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X-Fadezap: Let me just remove the 1maemo1 one and see what happens.14:12
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X-FadeLunch, brb.14:13
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lardmanok so not going closed source at all then: http://www.symbian.org/news-and-media14:15
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hrwlardman: but with only nokia behind Symbian it will not evolve14:21
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lardmanhrw: perhaps14:22
lardmanbut apparently I was wrong, and it's supposed to be open but guided14:22
lardmanwho knows! :)14:22
zapX-Fade: it just disappeared from package page :)14:22
hrwlardman: but will it change anything?14:23
hrwlardman: meego is also open, but harmattan (which is nokiameego) will be ~50% closed anyway14:24
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kerio:(14:26
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crashanddie_nokeego (!OK-GO)14:26
kerioso i see project "let's break into nokia's hq and steal all the hw specs for the n900" is still not go14:26
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crashanddie_only if we wear aari jaaksi masks14:27
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SchorschlV6hey guys... any ideas why pulseaudio wouldn't came up after reboot? (n900)14:28
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SchorschlV6omg14:32
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SchorschlV6the error was: /home/user/.mafw-playlists/DEADJOE exists...  god!14:33
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zapDEADJOE is an invalid hex number, use DEADBEEF instead14:39
hrwlardman: same will be with symbian phones.14:40
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hrwkerio: define 'hw specs'14:40
qwebirc45632912. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will)14:40
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timeless_chatweb12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will)14:41
Scelt12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will)14:41
timeless_chatweb-- that's an advantage for someone who has to bankroll their phone os14:41
kerio12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will)14:41
Termanawtf14:41
Termana:p14:41
* timeless_chatweb blames webchat14:42
psycho_oreoscopy and paste craze14:42
keriohrw: complete hardware specifications for each tiny chip in the n90014:42
kerioEEEEEVERYTHING14:42
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hrwkerio: forget it14:43
keriowhy? :(14:43
hrwkerio: TI does not give complete specs neither14:44
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keriook, project "let's break into nokia and TI's HQs to get complete hardware specs for the n900"14:44
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maybeWTFyou'll end up having to break into some taiwanese/chinese company HQ too14:46
keriowell i imagine them not being a real problem14:46
kerioyou probably just have to pay14:46
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Gorrothtrying to get a libnet-dev package out before i head to work14:47
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Gorrothi don't know how to make the dh_* programs install man pages under /opt instead of /usr though :-/14:47
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Gorrotheven though i compile with --prefix=/opt14:47
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Gorrothi might just release this to extras-devel as it is and try to fix the doc situation later14:51
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timeless_chatwebGorroth: man pages generally get killed by the install process, so i'm not sure it matters14:59
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Gorrothwhat do you mean?15:02
Gorrothi can install man pages15:02
Gorrothit's just they go to /usr instead of /opt15:02
zapGorroth: cat /usr/share/man/README15:03
Gorrothzap: the purged thing?  i guess that means that when you do an install, the installer strips out all man pages?15:04
Gorrothhmm, somehow i got squid to install man pages to /opt.... let me see how i did that15:04
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lardmanhrw: apologies for the slow response15:15
lardmanhrw: yeah, well that's what I was wondering, seems like both platforms are pretty similar in terms of openness with both having various disadvantages and advantages15:16
lardmanthe main plus for Linux being the availability of existing code, though the need to tailor it for resource constrained devices is a disadvantage imo15:17
lardmananyway, /me heads for lunch15:17
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keriowell, µClinux is opensource too15:17
kerioalso how is the n900 resource-limited?15:18
keriomy old computer that ran debian was slower15:19
kerioand had about the same ram15:19
kerioand less hd space15:19
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Gorrothokay, uploaded libnet15:20
Gorrothhope it builds15:20
lardman|afklet me reply when I get home15:20
lardman|afkbut really the N900 does suffer under the memory load15:20
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keriooh of course15:20
keriobut the solution is to use less ram15:21
kerioduh15:21
FauxFauxThe first pc I remember owning, and I wasn't an early starter or anything, so this isn't that geeky, was 33mhz with 500mb of hdd.  It's not even funny how much more powerful than that the n900 is.15:21
Gorrothyeah, the n900 does suffer under memory pressure :-/15:21
lardman|afkso I suppose what I should say is that modern sw, which is what people want, is not designed to be memory efficient15:21
lardman|afknecessarily15:21
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lardman|afkLinux (and by that I mean more than just the kernel) has certainly been designed for desktop computers with desktop HDD and RAM15:21
lardman|afkthat's the issue I see15:22
lardman|afkanyway, will bbiab15:22
keriogecko is the thing that really eats up the ram15:22
hrwkerio: it is hard to use less ram when after running few apps real ram ends in n90015:22
kerioso i blame timeless15:22
timeless_chatweb?15:23
timeless_chatweboh15:23
iDontkerio: run!15:23
timeless_chatwebwell15:23
* timeless_chatweb shrugs15:23
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kerioi mean, i love gecko, it's a really awesome html renderer and it's a cute animal too15:23
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timeless_chatwebheh15:23
keriobut there is a reason other handheld platforms use webkit for their browser15:24
timeless_chatwebthe system has *lots* of running processes15:24
kerioPULSEAUDIOOOOOOOOO15:24
timeless_chatweblinux desktops don't typically have as may, especially older desktops15:24
kerioalmost forgot about that15:24
Gorrothhmm, where is that page that says if the autobuilder is building your things or not?15:24
keriotimeless_chatweb: well, my old desktop ran two users, one on kde and the other on gnome at the same time15:24
keriowith 384mb of ram15:24
Gorrothoh, whoops!  it built already, and i just submitted again15:25
Gorrothwell, anyway, now libnet-dev is available in extras-devel or should be soon15:25
hrwkerio: during UDS-N I met nokia guy which had 'nokia browser' based on webkit15:26
keriotimeless_chatweb: wait, what15:26
hrwGorroth: libnet 1.0.x or 1.2.x?15:26
keriowhat processes?15:26
Gorrothhrw: i started with 1.1.2.115:26
Gorrothhrw: i'll update it after i get ettercap uploaded15:26
Gorrothhrw: just working now with what i know works15:26
MohammadAGhmm15:26
MohammadAGhow do I cut out two lines from output?15:27
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timeless_webchatgrr15:28
timeless_webchatwhere was i?15:28
timeless_webchatkerio: your computer had a 50% head start on memory vs the n900's 256mb15:28
kerioand ran gnome AND kde15:29
kerio(with massive swapping ofc)15:29
timeless_webchatthe swap backing we have is also probably slower than a hdd from 3 years ago15:29
iDontI don't know if this matters, but AFAIK the n900 got just a 32-bit bus for the RAM15:29
timeless_webchat?15:29
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iDontmoder pc's have bigger busses for the ram right?15:30
iDont*modern15:30
SpeedEvilyes15:30
iDontso not only does the N900 got less ram, but also slower ram15:30
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iDontthan the 386mb ram box probably had/had15:30
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SpeedEvilThe swap backing is in some ways slower, some ways faster15:31
SpeedEvilIt's not consistent.15:31
SpeedEvilIn principle, it's _lotS_ faster if it's dealt with well.15:31
SpeedEvilBut it's not.15:31
MohammadAGnvm, figured that out15:31
MohammadAGbut, if I have lines with text and numbers, how do I filter out the text?15:32
MohammadAGsda15:32
MohammadAGsda115:32
MohammadAGI want only sda1 to show15:32
MohammadAGor sda[1..100]15:32
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alteregoRegular expressions15:32
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: what is the text?15:32
hrwMohammadAG: egrep sda[0-9]*15:32
MohammadAGe?grep?15:32
alteregobut if you're thinking of parsing dmesg output to get the partitions that's nasty :P15:33
MohammadAGnah, that's stupid, cat /proc/partitions | awk '{print $4}' | awk '{ if ( NR > 2  ) { print } }'15:33
MohammadAGmuhaha15:34
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MohammadAGhrw, didn't work btw, I have to take into account sdb too15:34
hrwMohammadAG: egrep sd[ab][0-9]*15:35
SpeedEvilawk 'NR>2{print $4}' /proc/partitions15:35
SpeedEvilMohammadAG15:35
hrw14:37 hrw@home:~$ ll /dev|egrep sd[a-l][0-9]*15:35
Gorrothlulz15:35
Gorrothtail +3 <file>15:36
Gorrothmwahahahaha15:36
MohammadAGthanks SpeedEvil, still stuck at the sd* part15:36
SpeedEvilwhat sd part?15:36
SpeedEvilI'm not understanding what output you're wanting15:37
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MohammadAGI want to list partitions, not blocks15:37
alteregoMohammadAG: with your hostmode2 kernel, does your camera app still work?15:37
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MohammadAGalterego, why wouldn't it15:37
MohammadAGunless you have fcam15:37
SpeedEvilawk 'NR>2&&$4~"[0-9]$"{print $4}' /proc/partitions15:38
alteregoMohammadAG: I had to reflash stock PR1.3 kernel this morning because the stock camera app wouldn't work and GPS seemed to fail to work with my app.15:38
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MohammadAGalterego, fcamera?15:38
MohammadAGas for GPS, it works15:38
MohammadAGI learned that the hard way15:38
MohammadAGwas testing smscon from a classmate's device15:38
SpeedEvilIf this is the third or successive line, and the fourth field matches the regex (has the last char a number) print the fourth field15:38
alteregoThis is GPS specifically through using Qt mobility.15:38
MohammadAGten minutes later, his inbox had 10 messages from mine15:38
alteregoThe Maps app works fine.15:39
MohammadAGalterego, err, that's userspace15:39
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: actually - you can drop the first test - as the first two lines do not have a number in the fourth filed15:39
alteregoWell, I'll have to investigate further, but I had to reflash stock PR1.3 kernel only and everything start working again.15:39
MohammadAGno idea then15:39
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, thanks!15:39
MohammadAGso in theory, this should work right?15:41
MohammadAGfor partitions in "`awk '$4~"[0-9]$"{print $4}' /proc/partitions`"15:41
MohammadAGdo mkdir /media/$partitions15:41
MohammadAGmount /dev/$partitions /media/$partitions15:41
MohammadAGdone15:41
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* SpeedEvil ponders15:43
SpeedEvilmkdir -p would probably be a good idea15:44
MohammadAGindeed, forgot about that15:44
SpeedEvilAlso - do you care about USB sticks being differentiable?15:44
MohammadAGhmm, shouldn't the default file manager using the partition name anyways?15:46
MohammadAGsince it shows WD PASSPORT even if I mount the HDD on /media/folder15:46
MohammadAGwhat's the omap-aes driver?15:48
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lardmanaes sounds like an encryption thingie15:55
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lardmanso possibly a driver for the on-chip encryption hw?15:56
X-FadeThat is a hardware aes encrypt/decrypt processor.15:56
X-Fadeafaik there is also hardware md5/sha1 in there.15:57
tobis87The omap-aes driver is the driver which uses the hardware acceleration which is built-in the omap cpu.15:57
lardmanwhere is this driver?15:57
lardmanon-device?15:57
tobis87And a hardware random generator is also in there.15:57
MohammadAGsomeone fixed the driver15:58
tobis87lardman: I have just posted the fix http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-November/027877.html15:58
lardmanah good stuff15:58
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MohammadAGso it builds against 2.6.28(?)15:59
tobis87Yes, since I took the part which belongs into the kernel normally (platform driver) and merged it into the module. But you will need to update Nolo, or it will reboot your device.15:59
jacekowskiX-Fade: yep, but docs how to use it are not public16:00
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jacekowskiX-Fade: and somebody only released driver for aes part of it16:01
jacekowskiMohammadAG: we have to talk16:01
tobis87jacekowski: No, the package also include sha1-md5. 3DES is missing.16:01
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tobis87 jacekowski: I missed the platform driver for the sha1-md5 driver on the first version I sent you.16:04
lardmandoes anyone know off hand who the author of the module is? Did it come from Ti's open sourcing venture?16:04
tobis87lardman: Dmitry Kasatkin16:05
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lardmanNokia then16:06
tobis87Yes16:06
tobis87But I still miss an engine for openssl, to make use of it in userspace. I now use it to encrypt the swap on the N900.16:07
jacekowskii don't get why you encrypt swap16:07
jacekowskithere is nothing there16:07
jacekowskii mean, all passwords and stuff should be mlocked anyways16:08
ShadowJKI'd want to accelerate ssh16:08
tobis87Because I can? :-D Don't know, I think it is a habit.16:08
tobis87ShadowJK: Yes, I hope for a real engine for openssl.16:13
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ShadowJKdoes ssh even use openssl?16:21
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jacekowskiyes16:21
tobis87Yes, you will need to force openssl to do so. Padlock as an example: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=71024316:24
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gpgphas anyone here moved the OS to the external card ?16:40
gpgpon a n810 i am talking about16:40
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luke-jr_gpgp: my N810 runs Gentoo on an external card16:41
gpgpwow, i am way behind on this device16:42
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gpgpi read a how to to move meamo to the ext card , wondering if it was still current.16:43
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gpgpluke-jr_: did you follow a guide or are you just smart ?16:43
luke-jr_gpgp: what would you need a guide for?16:43
alteregoNot too smart if he's using Gentoo :P16:44
alteregoooOOooooo16:44
luke-jr_alterego: as if there's anything else for N8x016:44
gpgpi am getting old, cant remember stuff like i used to16:44
luke-jr_Maemo is dead. Mer is dead.16:44
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luke-jr_nobody else supports N8x0 anymore16:44
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alteregoWell, we're trying to from the MeeGo front.16:45
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gpgpi know, its just recently i found a new use for my device. it still has the same probs it always did, too slow , not enough ram etc16:45
alteregoAt least, the desire is there anyway ..16:45
luke-jr_gpgp: RAM isn't too bad if you run it CLI16:45
gpgpwhat is the functionality of running geentoo on it ?16:45
gpgpi want to use it as a bike computer16:46
gpgpmaybe with arduino input ?16:46
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luke-jr_gpgp: the same functionality Gentoo has anywhere16:47
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gpgpi guess i will stick with meamo but on the ext card for more room. thanks luke-jr_16:50
luke-jr_Maemo is dead.16:50
Appiahooooh boy16:50
gpgpbut it has the basic functionality i need. it is not like the n810 is going to grow into better hardware16:51
luke-jr_it also has security holes, etc16:52
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gpgpnot too worried about security on a bicycle computer really16:53
* luke-jr_ will h4x u when he drives by16:54
luke-jr_just to prove a point16:54
gpgpoh my god he could find out my average speed16:54
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nidOits way more sinister than that, he could also get your total distance travelled.16:54
gpgpperhaps point of origin, that could be bbad16:55
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gpgpanyone else put other distros on it ?16:57
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johnsqHi17:29
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alteregoWeird,17:53
alteregoMy app is taking 90% CPU and it's not actually really doing anything.17:54
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alteregoShould just be processing an event that occurs every second17:55
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MohammadAGalterego, N900/IO?17:55
alteregoNope, should be doing much IO17:56
alterego~shouldn't.17:56
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Turskialterego: sleep probably shows up as 100%...17:58
alteregoErm. don't think so :P17:58
Turskiwell, probably not...17:59
Turskii thought that i had seen such with shell script sleep on n90017:59
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alteregoIt's rendering18:00
alteregoThink I need to look into the optimizations I made on my widgets again.18:00
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* alterego stops the animation on his suspected CPU killing widget ^.^18:04
zapX-Fade: have you looked at the unzip problem?18:04
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alterego< 1% before events start happening.18:04
X-Fadezap: Yes, but it isn't a quick fix. I can't pinpoint the exact cause of the issue yet.18:05
zapX-Fade: thank you, I'll wait18:05
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* MohammadAG sighs - need to find a way to get HAM to recognize my damn repo18:06
MohammadAGI'm seeing </certified> on Nokia's repos, maybe I should add that?18:06
alteregoHrm, ~20% improvement.18:06
alteregoWhich is actually what I would have guessed.18:06
alteregoSo 60% CPU usage :/18:07
X-FadeMohammadAG: Yes, maybe that helps.18:07
alteregoavg 50% it would seem.18:07
MohammadAGX-Fade, can I upload an older version of a package?18:07
X-FadeMohammadAG: Yes, you have direct access to the queue. So you can do that.18:08
MohammadAGX-Fade, note the "older"18:08
X-FadeMohammadAG: Yeah, don't use the builder ;)18:08
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MohammadAGso it won't be REJECTED then?18:08
* MohammadAG makes version 0 of community package18:09
X-FadeMohammadAG: I don't think there is a in your queue.18:09
X-FadeMohammadAG: But what would that solve?18:09
MohammadAGany .service file experts?18:09
MohammadAGX-Fade, it would allow users to see what they're upgrading, instead of the current way18:10
X-FadeMohammadAG: I can wipe the repo if needed.18:10
MohammadAGi.e install version 0 of community package, launch HAM to allow the user to update with a UI18:10
X-FadeMohammadAG: That won't help anything?18:11
MohammadAGit will, the current way involves opening a terminal and forcing installations18:11
X-FadeMohammadAG: The problem you have is that existing packages have been installed from another package domain.18:11
MohammadAGX-Fade, different problem :P18:11
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X-FadeMohammadAG: More important though.18:12
MohammadAGindeed18:12
MohammadAGjust wondering though18:12
X-FadeMohammadAG: If you can't fix that, then everything else you do is useless.18:12
MohammadAGis there a way to launch something via DBus without having an icon?18:12
alteregoHeh, I can decrease CPU usage by about 20% if I decrease the property animations' duration18:13
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MohammadAGX-Fade, what about removing Nokia's domains?18:13
MohammadAGif all fails of course18:13
X-FadeMohammadAG: No, don't do that ;)18:13
MohammadAGit would be really useful if HAM devs could assist us18:14
MohammadAGsince the configuration changed from Diablo to Fremantle18:14
X-FadeMohammadAG: I'd find out how package domains are identified. If it is the level, then take the same number.18:14
X-FadeMohammadAG: We need to find out where the package->repo relation is stored.18:15
MohammadAGhmm, in the configuration file? :)18:15
MohammadAGhildon-application-manager-config dump18:15
X-FadeMohammadAG: But try the certified thing first.18:15
MohammadAGhmm, no, that's not it18:16
MohammadAGthe latest community-ssu-enabler already has it18:17
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MohammadAGwe need HAM's devs, or someone who can read C (properly)18:18
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X-FadeMohammadAG: Marius should know.18:18
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MohammadAGLucas? He saw no problems with it18:19
E0xwhat i can use for fordward a call to take it in the pc when i am at home ?18:19
X-FadeMohammadAG: Ask him on the list, he should read it. Usually wants to help.18:19
E0x( asterisk install in the n900 ? )18:19
X-FadeMohammadAG: No, Marius Vollmer.18:19
MohammadAGX-Fade, http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-November/027849.html18:19
MohammadAGoh18:19
E0xi maybe i could use pulseaudio tu reroute the mic/output18:19
E0x?18:19
X-FadeMohammadAG: He designed the whole thing, so :)18:20
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MohammadAGX-Fade, also, one more thing, when replying to mailing lists, does something have to be set in your client's settings?18:20
JaffaMohammadAG: Only the right email address which is subscribed.18:21
MohammadAGmodest doesn't seem to work properly for that, replied to a message once and it made a new topic18:21
Jaffam-vo is a helpful chap, though18:21
X-FadeMohammadAG: Reply to all usually works. Some clients have reply to list.18:21
JaffaMohammadAG: Using what client?18:21
MohammadAGand gmail.com?18:21
X-FadeMohammadAG: reply-all works fine there.18:21
MohammadAGwill reply then :)18:22
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MohammadAGJaffa, used thunderbird for a while, then went back to webmail18:22
X-FadeMohammadAG: Please do, he really should know.18:22
JaffaGmail works fine for me in terms of "reply all" and not breaking the list threading.18:22
* X-Fade uses a labs plugin to 'reply to all' by default18:23
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MohammadAGdoes thunderbird support IMAP Idle?18:24
AranelMy Conversations app is bugged, It's showing a weird scrollbar and touch scrolling is not working. Can someone help me about it please? Screenshot: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png Strace: http://pastebin.com/rcvvYa3r18:24
X-Fadebbl, dinner.18:25
MohammadAGAranel, did you try yesterday's suggestions?18:25
AranelMohammadAG51: gconftool, reinstalling hildon alpha/beta, reboot? all 3 of them.18:26
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AranelMohammadAG51: I'm not sure about the gconftool way, there was TONS of entries :|18:26
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crashanddie_there were18:29
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Aranelyeah, there were.18:29
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Aranellol strace output makes me feel quite awkward. It just looks like some ancient language, and I don't recognize any word from that language.18:36
jacekowskiit's just showing syscalls18:36
psycho_oreosat least you could say that would make you look nerdy :p18:36
jacekowskibut i would personally add some stuff to it18:36
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jacekowskilike showing file name as well as handle for read/close/something like that18:37
Aranelhaha It would make me look nerdy, If I could understand anything about it, so I could make a "smart" face gesture instead of "I'm so screwed" gesture.18:37
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Araneljacekowski: tried that one too (http://pastebin.com/1rCi0U6K) there's some read entries18:38
Aranelwith really weird numbers and symbols18:38
psycho_oreostrust me.. you haven't been through "I'm so screwed" state :) I've visited boot loops 3 times in two days in an attempt to restore my n900 setup.. it'll become my frankenstein project in the making18:39
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Aranelpsycho_oreos: oops. yeah It looks worse :p18:40
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Aranelbut maybe you had an idea about what you are doing :p I'm just trying my luck to fix this issue, and I'm not lucky.18:41
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psycho_oreosnot really, I'm tired and pissed off, looks like frankenstein doesn't want to be reborn :/ flashing for the 4th time in two days18:46
Aranelpsycho_oreos: what exactly is wrong with it?18:48
wmaronehave you flashed both eMMC and the rootfs?18:48
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psycho_oreosAranel, shouldn't have symlinked /var/log to /opt/var/log, it caused X.org to display nothing upon rebooting.. Since then I've used dar to restore setup but that has caused device to malfunction and boot loops, then I retried copying specific directories, no dice, device rebooted automatically and now it just doesn't want to boot up.. again bootloops so now I'll have to reflash it for the 4th time and probably will have to start from scratch18:50
svuorelahmm... shouldn't I be ablre to update to pr1.3 from the phone itself ?18:50
psycho_oreoswmarone, no need, just doing rootfs only18:50
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psycho_oreosyes via HAM18:50
* Aranel I'm changing my question, since nobody is able to answer it: can I track filesystem reads (which config file is opened) for an application (rtcom-messaging-ui) ?18:51
ieatlintlsof might be able to do it18:51
Aranelsvuorela: you are able to do it.18:51
wmaronepsycho_oreos: so you keep breaking your device?18:51
Aranelpsycho_oreos: maybe you can try meego rescue initrd?18:52
psycho_oreosAranel, was about to suggest lsof but that would take a snapshot rather than constant and live tracking18:52
BCMMAranel: if you know which files you're interested in, inotify is simple18:52
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psycho_oreoswmarone, currently when its not what I want it to do18:52
MohammadAGhmm18:52
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MohammadAGAranel, it's a CSS issue I guess18:53
svuorelaAranel: what do I need to do to become able to do it?18:53
MohammadAGnot sure where rtcom-messaging-ui's CSS template is18:53
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MohammadAGthough tmo should knwo18:53
MohammadAGknwo18:53
MohammadAGsigh18:53
MohammadAGknow*18:53
Aranelnope I don't. Conversations app is loading some weird config files from somewhere, and displaying a scrollbar, messing up everything.18:53
jacekowskiCSS?18:53
jacekowskiit's using html for this stuff?18:54
ieatlintAranel: possible to run it with strace?18:54
AranelMohammadAG51: it's /usr/share/rtcom-messaging-ui/html. Tried changing them, tried getting original ones (if mine is corrupt) from my friend and copying them, tried installing mods on them. Didn't help with the scrollbar issue.18:54
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jacekowskistrace -f rtcom-messaging-ui 2>&1 | grep open18:54
jacekowskithis will give you list of files it's opening18:55
Aranelieatlint: done that but I cant understand anything on that output :p there's some reads and some opens, with numbers and symbols on it.18:55
ieatlintwhat jacekowski just said18:55
Aranelin fact, I tried that one too :| It's not showing up all of them, for example, it's not showing up the HTML/CSS files.18:55
Aranelaccording to strace open() only 5 files opened, 2 of them are databases, 3 of them are icons/useless stuff.18:56
ieatlintperhaps it's accessing the info through an api, and doesn't open the files itself18:56
Aranelsvuorela: just try upgrading via Application Manager, I guess?18:57
svuorelaAranel: yeah. it says no. use pc suite.18:57
Aranelmaybe. So I want to track whole filesystem read calls, to find out which files are read when using conversations.18:57
Aranelsvuorela: you need at least 40~ megabytes of free rootfs space and you should remove any conflicting packages.18:58
jacekowskino18:58
jacekowskinot read calls18:58
jacekowskiopen calls18:58
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jacekowskiread calls are not really as important18:58
Araneloops, open calls :)18:58
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Aranelhere's the open calls (from strace): http://pastebin.com/G30F0eKL19:00
AranelIt's not mentioning any UI elements, HTML/CSS files, anything. I should track all opened files for.. 20 seconds?19:00
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svuorelaAranel: I have around 65 M free19:02
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jacekowskiAranel: have you added -f to strace commandline?19:03
Aranelsvuorela: then you should take care of conflicting packages. Mostly they are games; like brainparty,openarena etc.19:03
Araneljacekowski: oh.. guess not :|19:03
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Araneljacekowski: what is the exact arguments I should add? -o , -f and -p?19:04
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jacekowski -f19:04
Glaubenskriegerhi, i have fMMS installed, and my device always choose the MMS connection, how can i change it, that the device automatically chooses the other internet connection?19:04
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chem|stGlaubenskrieger: change the mode to havoc19:05
chem|stin fmms19:05
jacekowskiit would be nice to get specs for rapuyama19:05
Glaubenskriegerthx19:05
jacekowskibecause i'm willing to bet that rapuyama can have two data connection open at the same time19:05
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Araneljacekowski: http://pastebin.com/8KQQ0yEH now some new entries added, but they don't look like config files.19:08
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Gorrothso, my earlier build of libnet-dev didn't go well. i accidentally submitted twice while it was building (not sure why autobuilder doesn't check for that)19:40
Gorrothanyway, i resubmitted an update.  so, it installs correctly on the n900 now19:41
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Gorrothit is in extras-devel.  the final step before i submit ettercap in a little while  :)19:41
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* slonopotamus yawns19:42
Neccidd19:43
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javispedromorning #maemo19:47
* javispedro does evil laughter again19:47
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DocScrutinizer51lo javispedro19:57
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Aranel[Repost] How can I track whole filesystem open calls on Maemo?19:59
javispedroinotify?19:59
javispedrohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inotify19:59
Aranelbut I don't know which ones I should track, does it work without knowing it?19:59
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slonopotamusAranel: strace on all running processes with forks follow enabled?20:01
slonopotamusAranel: why you want that?20:01
javispedroyou'd need to do quite a lot of logic to track all files, then set up inotify watches for all of them..20:01
Aranelslonopotamus: how can I do that? can you give me an example command?20:01
RST38hMoo, all20:01
Aranelwell, my conversations app is kinda messed up because of a corrupt config file, but I don't know which one.20:01
RST38hjavispedro, heffalump: heya20:01
javispedrohello RST38h20:01
slonopotamusRST38h: ohai20:02
Aranelso I'm going to track filesystem for open calls, and find out which files are opening on Conversations start-up.20:02
SpeedEvilstrace is what you probably want20:02
javispedroAranel: there's going to be like, half a billion open calls.20:02
javispedroAranel: you really should try to reduce the set of processes you will be monitoring20:03
slonopotamusAranel: strace -f -p <pid>20:03
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Aranelslonopotamus: tried that, gave me some of open calls, not all of them. (no html/css files included, or conf files)20:03
RST38hhtml/css may have been preloaded at startup20:04
slonopotamusAranel: there's microb proccess running for rendering20:04
slonopotamusAranel: prestarted20:04
AranelI did killall rtcom-messaging-ui20:04
Aranelthen strace'd it.20:04
slonopotamusAranel: /usr/sbin/browserd -s <num> -n browserui20:05
javispedro"Mystery Missile Launch Seen off Calif. Coast"20:05
slonopotamusAranel: that thing renders dialogs afaik20:05
RST38hhttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/09/national/main7036716.shtml20:05
javispedrolol20:05
RST38hjavispedro: shit we are reading the same rss20:05
javispedroRST38h: aka slashdot?20:06
RST38hFucking SYCHRONOUSLY20:06
Aranelslonopotamus: oh, maybe I misunderstood you. Does it work with Conversations app? see: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png I want to remove that scrollbar, and It's showing up because of a config file.20:06
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RST38hjavispedro: nah, I am no longer reading slashdot directly20:06
javispedrowell I was =)20:06
RST38hjavispedro: but it is in my google reader list indeed20:06
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Gorrothgoogle reader is teh awesum20:11
slonopotamusunlimited 3g sucks battery too fast :(20:11
RST38hheh20:11
RST38hwhich provider, which plan?20:11
SpeedEvilSue them!20:11
SpeedEvilIt's limited by battery.20:11
Gorrothslonopotamus: yeah. im20:11
SpeedEvilThat's gotta be illegal.20:11
Gorrothoops20:11
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cehtehstrap a big 12V car battery on your device :)20:12
javispedroRST38h: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/e3gf3/a_missile_was_launched_off_the_california_coast/c14zqpm20:12
javispedroRST38h: see first comment20:12
slonopotamusRST38h: megafon, basic (128kbps for 220rubles (~$7) per month)20:12
Gorrothslonopotamus: yeah. i'm gonna buy one of those big ass n900 batteries to handle heavy use20:12
slonopotamusRST38h: they have several plans up to 7mbps for $50/month20:13
RST38hslonopotamus: 128kbps is eGPRS speed.20:13
slonopotamusRST38h: it's artificially limited20:13
RST38hslonopotamus: so, simplyforce your phone to 2.5g and save on battery :)20:13
slonopotamusRST38h: but still, $7/month20:13
Gorrothtmo will give me 24 hr unlimited for 1.49 usd per each day i buy it20:14
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Gorrothpas as you go!  :)20:14
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Gorrothpay*20:14
RST38hslonopotamus: I pay $10-$15 a month for unlim speed :)20:14
slonopotamusRST38h: how i do that?20:14
Gorrothi can't type on the nOPP20:14
Gorrothn900!!!!20:14
RST38hslonopotamus: MTS Internet+ (4.25r per MB)20:14
SpeedEvil:)20:14
RST38hslonopotamus: There is an applet that lets you force phone to 2g or 3g or auto20:14
SpeedEvilI can type at around 25-30wpm on n900.......20:14
Gorrothreally?  you must practice on it a lot20:15
slonopotamusRST38h: meh, i spent around $30 when used plan with price like yours20:15
SpeedEvilGorroth: my laptop died. I used it for a week20:15
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SpeedEvilIRCing20:15
RST38hslono: but then, I am not running it around the clock :)20:15
Gorrothah ha20:15
slonopotamusRST38h: i use it around 2.5h a day20:16
nidOI just fire up the ole E90 when I need to type properly while mobile \o/20:16
RST38hslonopo: same here20:16
GorrothSpeedEvil: which irc client do you use on it?  i'm using irssi, but  i have to keep the xterm fonts small to make it usable20:16
SpeedEvilxchat20:16
Gorrothoh, i should try that20:16
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* nidO bangs head on desk over ovi suite20:19
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javispedro"We need to know how to decompile the code to recompile for our processors because the bytecode will not be compatible as is"20:22
* javispedro sighs20:23
luke-jr20:23
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jacekowskithat's not exactly true for arm20:23
javispedroI know.20:23
javispedroit's plain bullshit.20:23
javispedrothat is what happens when you put tech info a thread full of lemmings.20:24
jacekowskiwhere have you found it?20:24
javispedroxda developers20:24
jacekowskilink20:24
jacekowskithing is that it's true for architectures with variable opcode size20:24
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javispedro... aka not ARM.20:24
jacekowskilike x86, arm with thumb20:24
RST38hslono: have to note though that we have got wifi at workplace20:25
RST38hjavispedro: source of the quote?20:25
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jacekowskiwith arm, plain bruteforce decoding of opcodes and then assembling again will work, but it has downsides, like no way to modify it20:25
GorrothVratha: hi20:25
Vrathahi20:25
jacekowskiyou need inteligent disassembler to do any work20:25
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javispedrojacekowski: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=8886936&postcount=1420:26
* RST38h loudly wonders if anyone has heard of dynamic recompilation20:26
Vrathawell i am also gorroth.  just testing xchat on the n90020:26
jacekowskirotfl20:26
jacekowskithat's bs20:26
jacekowskisnapdragon == arm20:26
RST38hjavispedro: are these pleasant people trying to run Snapdragon code on a Samsungor somethign? :)20:27
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javispedroRST38h: let's say I found the thread "by chance", and I'm quite laughing at their approach.20:27
RST38hjavispedro: ARMv7 willrun ARMv6 code, but you still have to precheck it for system instructions20:27
jacekowskijavispedro: bytecode is compatible, it's just instruction set is different20:27
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RST38hjavispedro: To run ARMv7 on ARMv6 you do need code analysis20:28
RST38hwhich can be made automatic20:28
jacekowskinot really20:28
javispedroand static20:28
jacekowskistatic will fail20:28
jacekowskistatic code analysis ussually fails20:28
javispedrojacekowski: this is a GNU/Linux system. Not some assembly developer's playground.20:28
RST38hjavispedro: it really better be dynamic20:29
RST38hjavispedro: but yes, you can probably do a lot of it statically20:29
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RST38hand cache the result20:29
jacekowskijavispedro: disassembler have to run all possible code paths and then replace all problematic instructions with alternatives20:29
jacekowskijavispedro: but then adresses will shift20:30
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jacekowskior you do more complicated stuff with codecaves20:30
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jacekowskithat's why runtime recompilation would be the best option20:30
javispedroor you just trap SIGILLs and hope they do not use uxth much =)20:31
jacekowskiyep20:31
jacekowskijust catch illegal instructions and emulate them20:31
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jacekowskisort of like a virtualisation20:32
SpeedEvilcatch illegal, emulate, and patch, so you only do it once?20:32
jacekowskiyou can't shift adresses20:32
jacekowskiyou can optimise it with lookup tables20:33
SpeedEvilah20:33
jacekowskiso it will remember20:33
jacekowskiwhat is supposed to be executed there20:33
jacekowskiso it will not have to reanalyse opcode20:33
jacekowskiso penalty will be minimal20:33
jacekowskisort of like JIT compilation20:33
javispedrokernel entry20:33
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javispedrowhich may not acceptable for uxth20:33
javispedro*be20:34
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javispedroI'd personally just replace all instances of new opcodes with BL to emulated functions in a fixed address.20:34
javispedrostatically, pre binary launch.20:34
jacekowskihow do you know that it's an opcode not data?20:35
javispedroyou can, statically.20:35
RST38hFolks, have you actually considered if all this stuff is worth it?20:35
javispedrobecause I'm making the assumption this is not a assembly developer's playground20:35
RST38hIn the above case, I mean20:35
RST38hjavispedro: wrong assumption20:35
jacekowskijavispedro: it will not work20:35
jacekowskiand what if program is compressed with UPX20:36
javispedroI know there are counter examples. why it won't work for 90% of the code?20:36
jacekowskior polymorphic20:36
javispedrois there a polymorphic or upx compressed program in the Maemo base image?20:36
jacekowskisort of, no20:36
javispedromy point.20:36
jacekowskifmtxd will not run with simple static analysis20:37
RST38hwhy?20:37
jacekowskibecause parts of code are unreachable20:37
jacekowskipointers to functions are passed to gtk and gtk will call them20:37
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jacekowskior dbus20:38
jacekowskii'm not sure20:38
javispedrogood point. you'd need to know about all external deps.20:38
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jacekowskithat's why runtime analysis is better20:38
jacekowskibecause you cover all scenarios20:38
Jaffa"statically" and "all possible code paths" is the Halting Problem.20:38
javispedroI know.20:38
jacekowskiand you don't have to mess up with sections20:38
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javispedroyou can always fsck up any static analysis20:39
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javispedroie for ex. you could start doing arithmethic with function pointers.20:40
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javispedronow the question would be a ) who does that? b ) does the compiler insert code that might do that in predictable fashion?20:40
javispedroso, just trap SIGILLs :)20:41
jacekowskiexactly20:41
jacekowskitrap sigills, emulate and run20:41
jacekowskiIDA is one of the best static analysis tools20:41
jacekowskiand still fails quite often20:42
jacekowskibecause gcc tends to mix data with code and sometimes you end up with function pointers somewhere in data section20:43
jacekowskilike nolo for example20:43
* javispedro ponders20:43
javispedrowhen IDA fails to distinguish text/data its usually trivially visible to human eye20:44
javispedrothere has to be some kind of analysis that can do that too.20:44
javispedroshould make for a nice paper (hint =) )20:44
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jacekowskiyou will always have cases when that fails20:44
javispedroofc, because I was thinking statistical20:45
jacekowskiwith normal code ida probably cover over 90% of code correctly20:45
javispedrobut, take a conservative approach20:45
jacekowskibut then you still have 10% that can be code or data20:45
javispedrowhich you then emulate.20:45
jacekowskiand as long as it's not 100% that's done correctly you can't do it20:45
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jacekowskibut then you can never be sure if you don't have 1% of data that was treated as a code20:46
jacekowskiand will cause your program to fail20:46
* javispedro also notes that ELF may have information to help, for ex. position of pools, etc. at least with debug symbols.20:46
jacekowskiyou have to be 100% sure that you will not have false positives20:47
trumeeanybody using pptp on N900?20:47
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trumeei want to add/delete routes on N900. I can do "/sbin/route add -net 192.58.150.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 dev ppp0" in ip-up.d, but how do delete this route in ip-down.d ?20:48
jacekowskitrumee: man route20:48
trumeebasically, instead of routing everthing through the tunnel, i only want to route specific ip address.20:48
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X-Fademece: autobuilder doesn't set anything specific for -O2 builds.20:51
trumeethe default behaviour on N900 is to route everything  through ppp0, how do i disable that first?20:51
meceX-Fade, I see. but howcome it builds with -O2 when scratchbox doesn't?20:51
meceX-Fade, I need -O0 btw. -O2 segfaults20:52
X-Fademece: Can be because we use the squeeze devkit.20:52
javispedromece: are you using CFLAGS in your rules or Makefile but not setting them in your rules file?20:52
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javispedromece: for ex. autoconf might be reading that env var.20:53
mecejavispedro, I don't know, I'll check. I'm in the middle of reinstalling scratchbox now though.20:53
javispedromece: next package ensure to set the CFLAGS you want in rules file.20:53
mecejavispedro, so what should I do to make -O0 stick?20:53
mecejavispedro, that's what I tried but it didn't seem to work.20:54
javispedropackage name?20:54
mecejavispedro, wesnoth20:54
mecejavispedro, I've been at this for several occasions, but haven't gotten it fixed.20:54
javispedro328MiB!!20:54
javispedrohow do you get this into the autobuilder? lol :)20:55
X-Fadelol, yeah a monster.20:55
meceit's not that big20:55
mece3Mb or so.20:55
javispedroNeed to get 328MB of source archives.20:55
mecewesnoth-data20:55
meceis big20:55
javispedroI guess wesnoth-data's source package is wesnoth20:55
meceand I can't get that one into the autobuilder. I don't know how it originally got there.20:55
meceI wasn't the original maintainer20:56
javispedroaaa20:56
meceI did some workarounds to make it work with the existing data package.20:56
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javispedrowhen did you send it to autobuilder? not in november?20:57
javispedrohttps://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/extras-cauldron-builds/2010-November/thread.html20:57
mecejavispedro, ages ago20:57
mecejavispedro, I didn't want to send new ones because they all segfaulted20:58
javispedromece: I mean, the one that failed to built or that built with -O2?20:58
mecejavispedro, I put up a deb I built in sb on my own website so that people could play it.20:58
mecejavispedro, it builds fine, and uses -O2, and segfaults on launch20:58
mecejavispedro, in sb it builds without -O2 and works fine.20:59
javispedromece: are you on diablo btw?20:59
mecejavispedro, fremantle20:59
mecediablo works20:59
meceafaik20:59
javispedroweird, I thought the frementle toolchain had way less bugs.20:59
mecejavispedro, not sure if it's a bug.21:00
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javispedrounfortunately I can only find wesnoth packages uploaded by mikkov in logs... so can't check.21:00
meceooh21:00
Venemo_N900hi21:00
mecewell no problems then21:00
mece:D21:00
Venemo_N900MohammadAG: ping21:00
meceforget everything21:00
javispedromece: wouldn't you remember approximately when you uploaded it?21:00
javispedromece: ah well, ok.21:00
meceI never a mail about him getting maintainer rights, so I figured he forgot about it or didn't have time.21:01
javispedrolast upload by him was in september seems21:01
meces/never a/never got a/21:01
infobotmece meant: I never got a mail about him getting maintainer rights, so I figured he forgot about it or didn't have time.21:01
mecewell then I guess it's fixed.21:01
mecejavispedro, since he knows his stuff.21:02
javispedromece: this is one such package uploaded by him https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/wesnoth_1.8.4-0maemo1/21:02
meceoo nice he upgraded to 1.8.4 :)21:02
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meceinteresting. he's still not listed as a maintainer...21:04
* Noobmonk3y grumbles21:05
nidOwhassup.21:07
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* crashanddie wonders if he should go get CoD or not21:09
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MohammadAGVenemo_N900, pong, xchat isn't highlighting me21:10
Venemo_N900MohammadAG: sry21:10
MohammadAGcrashanddie, if you do, tell me how it compares to MW221:10
crashanddiewell21:10
crashanddieMW2 was awesome21:10
crashanddieit's going to be pretty hard to beat21:11
MohammadAGindeed, and anything by tryearch isn't21:11
AranelMy Conversations app is bugged, It's showing a weird scrollbar and touch scrolling is not working. Can someone help me about it please? Screenshot: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png - I know that It's somehow related to browserd (It generates those messaging UI's) but I don't know how to make it work.21:11
MohammadAGVenemo_N900, sorry about what? anyways, wassup :P21:11
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jacktheripperhello, my LED in the corner doesn't light up anymore (even after removing the battery). Was setting it to 'heartbeat' as long as the n900 was on a bad idea ?21:13
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nidOdid you mess with the led's config manually?21:14
jacktheripperyeah. But it worked after that. It stopped working without any change21:15
jacktheripperor after a theme change.21:15
sivangtimeless: taking pictures reminded :)21:16
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corecodeoh heh 1.321:18
corecodewhen did that come out21:18
nidOcouple of weeks ago21:18
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sivangtimeless: anything interesting regarding the talk? I don't have to go overthe whole backlog from the morning, sorry was in a work event so was not online.21:19
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sivangtimeless: I notedthat MSDN docs are good, even compared to Qt ones.21:20
* sivang goes back to some previous commitments.21:20
sivangbbl21:20
javispedrosivang: btw, I just note that I missed the irc logs link in my message21:21
javispedrosivang: but I'm sure you can look it up21:21
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sivangjavispedro: you sent a mesage?21:22
jacktherippersorry for that xD21:22
javispedrosivang: to the ml, long ago.21:22
sivangsorry, I was away al the day21:23
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sivangjavispedro: oh, that's okay- you pasted there the transcript for the chat.21:23
sivangjavispedro: which is aready in a specia google notes for myself to be compiled into my part of the slides21:23
sivang:)21:23
javispedrosivang: not entirely, though :)21:23
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sivangjavispedro: ah, okay - so if you can get the link, that\d be grea.t21:24
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* sivang notes he needs a new laptop. but not an MBP21:24
sivangre: typing mistakes21:24
mr_chrisIs this the right place for help with things Maemo related or is this just a general discussion area?21:24
sivangmr_chris: it is, just ask21:24
crashanddieMohammadAG: ping21:24
MohammadAGpong21:25
chem|stis there anything to tell to reread configs from if-pre-up and if-post-down?21:25
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sivangchem|st: up and down the interface perhaps?21:26
sivangifup/ifdown21:26
chem|stsivang: well did that...21:26
mr_chrisRunning gpxview on an n810. I'm trying to figure out how to purge its local database. Uninstalling doesn't do it. I've looked through the entire filesystem with find as root for anything gpx or gpxview related and still can't see to find it.21:26
sivangmr_chris: sorry for being obvious, you tred sudo aptget remove --purge?21:26
crashanddiemr_chris: .gpxview?21:27
sivangmr_chris: but if it's tuf is under home/$user/. dot dir  then it don't get purged through the paackage21:27
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chem|stMohammadAG: may I have a working link to your KR.sh?21:28
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mr_chrissivang: Yes. I also tried dpkg --purge21:28
mr_chriscrashanddie: That's the first thing I looked for.21:29
mr_chrissivang: You're right. Not there and therefore can't be purged.21:29
MohammadAGchem|st, http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/public/maemo/KR.sh21:29
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chem|stty21:29
javispedrosivang: from http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-27.log.html#t2010-10-27T18:12:26 onwards21:29
crashanddiemr_chris: strace it, see which files it opens21:29
javispedrosivang: also http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-28.log.html#t2010-10-28T01:10:1521:30
mr_chriscrashanddie: I'll give that a try. Thanks.21:30
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sivangmr_chris: not in the . dot dir of the user?21:31
mr_chrissivang: It is not.21:31
ieatlintdoes anyone else think it's a bad sign when an intro to qt on symbian "hello world" talk is scheduled to be 80min long :(21:31
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sivangmr_chris: strace it, like crashanddie said21:32
mr_chrisLearning how to use strace. This should come in handy later.21:32
sivangor dtrace it for open files or something21:32
sivangmr_chris: it is very much21:32
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jacekowskidtrace?21:33
jacekowskithere is no dtrace for linux21:33
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sivangisn't there on centos?21:33
sivanghmm21:33
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* sivang is confused21:33
jacekowskithat's barely working something behaving like dtrace21:33
jacekowskinot direct port21:34
sivangah okay, mascurading is the dtrace binary?21:34
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johnsqHi21:35
jacekowskiwell, in principle it's supposed to be as compatible with true dtrace as possible21:35
sivangthat's the systap thingy?21:35
jacekowskibut it's not direct port21:35
jacekowskino21:35
jacekowskisystemtap is linux dtrace like thing21:35
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sivangokey21:36
sivangnoted21:36
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kkalshall there be a new maemo device soon?21:36
kkalmaemo/meego21:36
chem|stkkal: no21:36
kkal:(21:36
jacktheripperis it possible to run a .desktop file from terminal ?21:37
kkalI shall ask again in 1 year21:37
kkalfarewell21:37
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chem|stlol21:37
jacktheripperXD21:37
chem|stjacktheripper: why not run the command itself?21:37
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jacekowskijacktheripper: nope21:38
jacktheripperchem|st, it has this -> "StartupWMClass" in the desktop file, which makes it segfault when run from terminal.21:38
jacktheripperor so I understand21:38
jacktheripperit's HealthCheck.21:38
jacekowskijacktheripper: i suppose it would be possible to use binformat misc to have a nice transparent parser for them21:39
sivangjavispedro: thanks21:39
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BluesLeeDocScrutinizer: ping21:39
jacktheripperjacekowski, sorry, don't get you.21:40
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jacekowskijacktheripper: simple answer, no21:41
jacktheripperheh, thanks then. I'll find a way to imitate what that setting does.21:42
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jacekowskijacktheripper: complicated, yes but you would have to create parser and tell kernel to use it when required21:43
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jacktheripperwhat does clicking a shortcut trigger then ? there must already be a ready parser.21:44
jacekowskibecause your gui has a parser and understands this kind of files21:45
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DocScrutinizerBluesLee: pong21:45
jacekowskibut that parser is a part of your GUI/DE/whatever21:45
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jacekowskinot usable by kernel21:45
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mr_chrisI think I figured it out.21:47
mr_chrisMemory.21:47
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mr_chrisI think it temporarily stores its local settings in RAM. When I remove and readd the application it still tries to find previously imported caches. When I reset the tablet they are all cleared.21:47
DocScrutinizerjacktheripper: you tried http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/DBUS#dbus-send-launch-application ?21:48
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trumeeis there any way to check if i am on gprs0 or wifi using commandline?21:48
trumeei want to use that info in a shell script21:48
jacktheripperDocScrutinizer, great! thanks.21:49
crashanddiemr_chris: wait, what?21:49
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crashanddietrumee: parse ifconfig21:49
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i don't think it's what he needs21:49
crashanddietrumee: or talk to ICD221:49
BluesLeeDocScrutinizer: first of all, thank you and the others for your efforts on usb host21:49
BluesLeeDocScrutinizer: someone on tmo asked if the n8 nokia usb otg cable will work with the n900, i found no answer in the thread21:50
jacekowskiBluesLee: yes and no21:50
luke-jrip route get 4.2.2.221:50
DocScrutinizerBluesLee: nope it won't21:50
BugBluetrumee: route -n21:50
BluesLee:-)21:50
luke-jrwhy all the obsolete cmds?21:50
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: isn't that normal microusb to A female?21:50
DocScrutinizerit's micro-B21:51
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BugBluebecauze n900 maemo haz not installed that iproute2-utilz21:51
trumeecrashanddie: wc -l `ifconfig |grep wlan0` gives warning because of spaces21:51
DocScrutinizerOTG adapter has micro-A plug21:51
luke-jr/sbin/ip route get 4.2.2.2 | perl -nle 'm/dev (\w+)/&&print $1'21:51
luke-jrBugBlue: :O21:51
Noobmonk3ylcuk: read your tweets ;)21:52
DocScrutinizerBluesLee: Nokia switched N900 receptacle from micro-AB (like on N8x0) to micro-B when they decided N900 won't support OTG21:52
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: you all good Qt side now?21:52
mr_chriscrashanddie: As weird as it sounds that seems to be the case. I'm coming up with a way to reproduce the results.21:52
trumeeluke-jr: yeah, that would work for me. thanks.21:52
trumeeluke-jr: however, if the 4.2.2.2 ip address is not reachable, will that still work?21:52
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DocScrutinizerBluesLee: you *might* make it fit, if you care and dare. Just file off the surplus metal of the rim21:53
DocScrutinizeronb adapter21:53
luke-jrtrumee: depends on if it's locally unreachable, or if it'd be an outside routing issue21:53
jacktheripperDocScrutinizer, actually, it wasn't exactly what I need. I need to investigate the output of an application that can only be launched from its .desktop. The dbus message doesn't show me the output.21:53
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luke-jrtrumee: that is, it will fail if the local kernel says "I don't have a route"21:53
luke-jrbut work if the local kernel would xmit it21:53
trumeeluke-jr: ah. i see.21:53
DocScrutinizerjacktheripper: there's no app that "can only be launched from its .desktop"21:54
jacktheripperDocScrutinizer, it has this parameter it its desktop file -> "StartupWMClass"21:54
DocScrutinizerjacktheripper: you might want to make sure you're the right user, and maybe also use run-standalone.sh21:54
DocScrutinizerhmm, no idea about that one21:55
javispedrojacktheripper: ignore it21:55
mr_chrisThe only thing that gpxview seems to leave behind is /var/lib/gconf/apps/gpxview. I installed gpxview, ran it and imported some geocaches. I then uninstalled it and removed /var/lib/gconf/apps/gpxview. After that I reinstalled it, opened it and saw the cache list still there.21:55
mr_chrisI rebooted the tablet and they were gone.21:55
javispedrojacktheripper: concentrace on Exec= line21:55
javispedrooh, concentrace, nice word.21:55
DocScrutinizer:-D21:55
sivangmr_chris: some process loked them21:56
jacktheripperI do what it does, but the app segfaults mid way.21:56
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trumeeluke-jr: my N900 sip problem sucks very much less now.21:56
sivangmr_chris: in some unices, a file is not deleted even after you've deleted it until all references to it are gone21:56
DocScrutinizercheck user and run-standalone.sh21:56
jacktheripperit's HealthCheck btw21:56
luke-jrtrumee: cool. how?21:56
DocScrutinizeraka environment21:56
mr_chrissivang: I see.21:56
mr_chrisThanks everyone.21:56
DocScrutinizerjacktheripper: so ~lart Noobmonk3y21:57
trumeeluke-jr: turned out running a 32 bit OS on a 64bit cpu is not a good idea.21:57
DocScrutinizer:-D21:57
luke-jrtrumee: O.o?21:57
jacktheripperhahaha21:57
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trumeeluke-jr: seems there are timing issues because of that. all sip clients can deal with it but it breaks N90021:57
jacktheripperrun-standalone works! no need to ~lart anyone :D21:57
DocScrutinizerjacktheripper: see javispedro ^^^ - I'm not aware of anything that makes an app "run from .desktop only"21:58
trumeeluke-jr:  i now have a gentoo amd64 running and it behaves much better now. Also, Olivier Crete gave me some gstreamer binaries which have helped.21:58
javispedroDocScrutinizer: well. there are a few hidden things, but are uncommon.21:58
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: for ex. you could put a fake Exec= in .desktop knowing that the launcher will use d-bus activation.21:59
DocScrutinizeryep21:59
DocScrutinizeror just check PPID in your app21:59
* sivang goes to play with nodeload21:59
sivangjavispedro: thanks again, btw there are more interesting points in the chat logs.21:59
javispedroalso, d-bus puts a few extra env vars21:59
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javispedrosivang: :) good luck!22:00
DocScrutinizerthat's what run-standalone is for afaik22:00
DocScrutinizercreate proper env22:00
javispedroDocScrutinizer: no, some more vars (for ex. the service name that caused your binary to be exec'd)22:00
DocScrutinizerhmm, yes. All this are "flags" but no prerequisites for using any special function22:01
DocScrutinizeraiui22:01
sivangjavispedro: thanks, hope it'll go well, you said you might be in the audience right?22:01
DocScrutinizeryou could test for the flags in your app22:01
javispedrosivang: yep22:01
sivanggreat, now really going back to finish my stress testing with nodeload commitments.22:02
sivangcheer all, laters.22:02
javispedrosivang: don't make speak very much though, my pronunciation sucks :)22:02
BluesLeeDocScrutinizer: i will get me a female2female adapter first22:02
javispedro*me22:02
sivangjavispedro: me too, am not a native speaker :)22:02
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DocScrutinizerBluesLee: sure bet22:02
sivangBluesLee: females?22:02
* sivang did not just say that.22:02
BluesLeesivang: yes, two of them22:02
DocScrutinizersivang: dykes22:03
* sivang refrains from respondingdue to PG13 22:03
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sivangI should find a girl friend sometime soon, this is the sign :-)22:03
sivanganyway, nodejs is calling22:03
javispedrocya22:03
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DocScrutinizersivang: another word for this is "gender changer" :-P22:04
sivangLOL22:04
sivangheh22:04
* sivang -> out22:04
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crashanddieMohammadAG: knows a lot about gender changers22:04
javispedrooh22:05
crashanddies/://22:05
infobotcrashanddie meant: MohammadAG knows a lot about gender changers22:05
javispedroso the FreeRunner also had a lis302dl22:05
javispedrowhy didn't Nokia reuse the existing driver then? :)22:05
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DocScrutinizerwhile we're at it: how would I teach xchat to paste last nick on pressing ""tab"" on an empty input line?22:05
DocScrutinizers/last/least recently used22:06
MohammadAGcrashanddie, http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2646, and fu :P22:06
crashanddieleast recently used?22:06
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: no F'ng clue22:06
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I'm not convinced our driver was better than Nokia's22:07
javispedroah.22:07
andaxgood question which i ask myself too, DocScrutinizer, and how to "emulate" Function keys :)22:07
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: now I typed >>cra<tab>now I...<<22:07
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: and now I typed >><tab>and now...<<22:08
crashanddieheh22:08
crashanddiemacIrssi does it22:08
crashanddiebuy a mac :P22:08
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andaxDocScrutinizer: maybe its easier with irssi than with xchat22:09
* luke-jr ordered 200 lbs of baby formula online22:09
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DocScrutinizerI'm not going to switch to irssi for that feature22:09
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Noobmonk3y19:57 <DocScrutinizer> jacktheripper: so ~lart Noobmonk3y - did i miss something?22:09
DocScrutinizerWTF is "baby formula"22:09
dRbiGcrashanddie: you don't need to by a mac to have irssi :P22:09
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: are you serious?22:10
DocScrutinizerNoobmonk3y: not really22:10
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Noobmonk3yLOL FAIR ENOUGH :p22:10
Noobmonk3yffs caps22:10
MohammadAG~lart Noobmonk3y22:10
* infobot nukes Noobmonk3y with a single large nuke22:10
DocScrutinizerNoobmonk3y: except of course some nice spanking maybe - if you like that :-D22:11
javispedroascsiiiiiiiiifeeeeeeeeqjffffffffffgvenwf22:11
javispedro... oops.22:11
RST38hhttp://gizmodo.com/5685499/were-running-out-of-chocolate22:11
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: muhaha22:11
RST38hforgetoil and rare earths22:11
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: http://forum.xchat.org/viewtopic.php?t=109822:11
Noobmonk3ylol!22:11
Noobmonk3yspanking is good22:11
mececrashanddie, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!22:12
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: I'm serious like Mr. Spok22:12
* mece runs to buy chocolate22:12
andaxdRbiG: yeah, irssi is in the maemo repos but irssi needs more getting used to, compared to xchat22:12
crashanddiemece: what?22:12
meceoops22:12
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: … is that yes or no?22:12
meceI meant RST38h22:12
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: obviously a "yes"22:13
dRbiGandax: 'getting used to' depends very much on where you come from :)22:13
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: it's what babies eat when they don't have boobs22:13
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: though I'm answering on a general basis wrt me always being serious - without any idea what's been your particular question referring to22:14
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: aaah22:14
luke-jrand people say *I* grew up secluded…22:14
javispedrowell, it's not a term you'd usually seen on a tech context.22:15
DocScrutinizerI grew up in a german speaking environment22:15
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javispedrowhich means that people who learnt english in tech contexts..22:15
DocScrutinizerexactly22:16
javispedro(or mislearnt english, as in the case of javispedro)22:16
andaxdRbiG: i dont know what you mean, or does it relate to restricted translations of irssi manuals? :)22:16
luke-jrlol22:17
luke-jrso what do they call it in German?22:17
DocScrutinizerI always used the english lessons at school to read my "Byte" mag22:17
dRbiGandax: i mean that i've been using text based clients for like 13 years - for me i'd need time to actually get used to xchat ;p22:17
DocScrutinizero/ --> Dr.House22:18
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: so what do they call it in German?22:18
dRbiGirssi is the client to use, though i still see some memory leaks after few weeks of keeping it running22:18
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luke-jrdRbiG: boo irssi22:19
luke-jrand anything else GTK-related22:19
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dRbiGirssi is not grk-related22:19
luke-jrit is22:19
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javispedroluke-jr: at least in spanish one would say something along the lines of "motherly" milk.22:20
dRbiGjust as much as bash is gtk-related22:20
luke-jrdRbiG: no, BASH doesn't have GTK dependencies22:20
luke-jrirssi does22:20
dRbiGluke-jr: mine doesn't :)22:20
crashanddieluke-jr: not really. Irssi was text-only to start with, there are gtk/gnome-enabled forks, but it really doesn't depend on GTK.22:20
dRbiGexactly22:21
MohammadAGDepends: libc6 (>= 2.7), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0), libncurses5 (>= 5.6+20071006-3), libperl5.10 (>= 5.10.1), libssl0.9.8 (>= 0.9.8k-1), perl (>= 5.10.1-12ubuntu1), perlapi-5.10.1, perl-base (>= 5.8.1)22:21
javispedrotoo new stuff for fremantle.22:21
luke-jreven text-only irssi depends on GTK22:21
luke-jrsee MohammadAG's paste ☺22:21
dRbiGon maemo, right?22:21
luke-jron all OS22:21
crashanddieerhm...22:22
andaxdRbiG: i sometimes used irssi since ~5 years, most time inside screen via ssh connection, so it did run 24/7 :) first irc app i used was mIRC on windoze22:22
crashanddiewhat there depends on GTK?22:22
crashanddieluke-jr: nothing there is GTK22:22
luke-jrlibglib2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0)22:22
MohammadAGluke-jr, glib isn't gtk22:22
crashanddiethat's the glib22:22
luke-jris22:22
dRbiGgettext-0.18.1.1 glib-2.24.2 libiconv-1.13.1_1 pcre-8.10 perl-5.10.1_3 pkg-config-0.25_1 python26-2.6.622:22
crashanddiehas nothing to do with gtk22:22
dRbiGno gtk, sorry22:22
dRbiGno libc either22:22
dRbiGok, glib does for it22:22
luke-jrglib is the core of GTK22:22
crashanddieno, it's just a C library22:23
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viszis GTK not done with C then?22:23
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: poooooooooooo22:23
crashanddieit's like saying that x depends on linux because it uses the libc6 -- they're both GNU, and have a common history, but one isn't the other.22:23
javispedrowhile on this topic22:23
viszsorry22:23
luke-jrlibc6 isn't GNU22:23
dRbiGor like saying that bash depends on x 'cause you can run it in xterm22:23
luke-jrso Qt Core isn't Qt?22:24
javispedroluke-jr: glib is hardly the core of Gtk+22:24
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javispedroluke-jr: in fact, it is as much the core of Gtk+ as it is the core of Qt Core.22:24
javispedroluke-jr: as Qt Core uses glib.22:24
luke-jrjavispedro: not my Qt Core22:24
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javispedroluke-jr: I hate you.22:25
javispedro;)22:25
RST38hjavispedro: ?22:25
dRbiGluke-jr: if you said that glib is a part of gnome then yes22:25
dRbiGit is22:25
luke-jrGTK/GNOME22:25
luke-jrsame crap22:25
crashanddieluke-jr: sometimes you can be really insightful, sometimes you can be a bloody stuck up troll.22:25
kerioquite different crap22:25
keriogtk brought us sylpheed22:25
keriowhich is a kickass mail client22:25
keriognome brought us evolution22:25
keriowhich is... yeah22:25
dRbiGhehe, if you don't like it don't use it :)22:25
MohammadAGwhile pr1.3 brought us world peace22:26
* javispedro is actually starting to become a fan of glib, specially the part where it standardizes main loops22:26
luke-jrdRbiG: I don't.22:26
luke-jrjavispedro: Qt Core already did that22:26
javispedrowhich means that a plugin author can usually hook with the glib main loop instead of doing horrible hacks.22:26
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javispedroluke-jr: but Qt Core >= glib22:26
javispedroin fac,22:26
javispedro>>>>>22:26
luke-jrexactly.22:26
javispedropure glib is still quite small (no gobject, etc.)22:26
RST38hjavispedro: snap out of it, quick22:26
javispedrovirtually no startup penalty.22:27
dRbiGand no dependencies on any other gnome/gtk stuff22:27
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* luke-jr has glib masked22:27
crashanddieluke-jr: also, libc6 is gnu.22:28
luke-jrcrashanddie: libc6 is part of the C standard22:28
luke-jrAFAIK22:28
javispedroRST38h: makes some of my work easier if I can assume that the binary runs a glib mainloop22:28
crashanddieno, libc6 is the shortname for libc.so.6.x22:28
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crashanddiewhich is provided by the GNU C Library22:28
dRbiGwhat a pointless discussion :)22:29
luke-jror some other libc6 implementation22:29
javispedroluke-jr: s/6//22:29
luke-jrmy 1 year old is trying to modify my 1 month old's carseat22:29
andaxThere are poppler libs in maemo repos, so why not poppler utils? o_O22:29
andaxI need pdftotext from poppler-utils to see oversized pdf files22:30
crashanddieandax: most probably because noone didn't need them?22:30
luke-jroversized PDF files are, in my experience, bitmaps :P22:30
crashanddieenglish fail22:30
luke-jrNO U22:31
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andaxi need them badly, pdftotext is also a quasi dependency of mc which is also provided22:31
dRbiGno, it's creative grammar22:31
crashanddieluke-jr: yes, i failed english... "noone didn't need them"22:31
javispedrocreative grammar you say!22:32
luke-jrlol22:32
luke-jrtime for me to change diapers and take kiddos outside22:32
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dRbiGit is funny to see that there are so many ways to screw a language that is so simple22:32
javispedroa human-evolved language is not simple by definition.22:33
andaxcrashanddie: i cant use the preselected pdf thingie, most gui linux pdf viewers have bugs like hell, i always used plain old xpdf instead22:33
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dRbiGjavispedro: simple as in compared to other human-evolved languages22:34
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andaxcrashanddie: and pdftotext is even less ressource hungry than xpdf22:34
andaxwhich means its also faster22:34
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crashanddieyou seem to believe I would be able to help22:34
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andaxnot really but its hopeless anyway :)22:34
crashanddiebut unless someone decides to port the apps22:34
crashanddieyou're SOL22:35
luke-jrandax: Okular works awesome22:35
luke-jrcrashanddie: most of the apps are simply shell script wrappers around gs :P22:36
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javispedrobtw22:36
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javispedrohm.. was going to ask a stupid question.22:37
dRbiGgo on! :)22:38
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javispedroI won't tell the question, but the answer was "the C Preprocessor".22:38
dRbiGif one got an answer - is the question still there?22:39
lolcatCan I have noip on my phone?22:40
andaxlet me guess... the question would be something like "who compiles that stuff?"22:40
javispedroandax: no.22:40
dRbiGso many questions, so little time22:40
javispedrothe question was "assume I'm a propietary software developer. I have some closed source code base here. I want to release it under the GPL, at least, the parts I am able to. I've #ifdef'd out the parts I cannot, and a partially functioning binary builds. Is there a tool that would remove the #ifdef'd out parts before publishing the code?".22:41
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crashanddiejavispedro: only if you don't use includes22:42
dRbiGee, in such case you'd build your prop soft as a loadable libarary22:43
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crashanddiejavispedro: if you use the preprocessor-only switch on GCC, you'll get 250k lines of code in every file22:43
andaxjavispedro: i thought software code is enough confusing as it is but there really exist obfuscator apps22:43
nidOlolcat: if you write a client for their service, yes22:44
javispedrocrashanddie: hm. good point.22:44
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* MohammadAG got involved in too much stuff :/22:44
crashanddiejavispedro: though, a quick perl script can take care of that22:44
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JaizukeHey everyone22:45
javispedrothe hardest part of it being nested ifdefs22:46
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crashanddiejavispedro: I'm not talking about ifdefs22:46
* javispedro hoped he needn't write yet another parser22:46
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crashanddiejavispedro: just simple ### start opensource22:46
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javispedrocrashanddie: nice idea, thanks22:47
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crashanddiejavispedro: I'm using that technique for my installer script, but the other way around. I have a specific tag in my shell script in which I dump the base64 of my binaries/libraries22:48
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lucentis there much new development in the maemo kernel for N900 target, versus say meego kernel for N900?  I'm thinking in terms of development for the wireless (wifi, bluetooth) stack?22:48
dRbiGbase64, what a waste of space-time22:48
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lucentalso interested, any efforts to re-implement closed source blobs22:49
crashanddiethough, in the long run, you're probably better off having a specific library that you'd open source completely, and use with your proprietary app22:49
dRbiGcrashanddie: or other way around22:49
javispedroit would be opposite; most of it is open.22:49
dRbiGexactly22:49
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javispedroso I'd need to fill the executable with suspicious looking hooks.22:50
javispedronot good.22:50
crashanddieoh, well, whatever :)22:50
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javispedroMohammadAG: ah, the "too much work to do" syndrome.22:52
javispedroMohammadAG: try not to get burn22:52
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MohammadAGhow? I don't have any headphones to listen to shit properly while I'm doing what I'm doing :P22:53
MohammadAGand in a shitty country like this, you can't get a BH-50522:53
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javispedrowho wants that. wired headphones ftw.22:54
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crashanddieMohammadAG: you want headphones for christmas?22:54
X-FadeMohammadAG: We should be able to get you one if you really want it. Post packages aren't that expensive.22:54
MohammadAGI'd settle for a bike crashanddie :P22:55
crashanddiepiss off22:55
MohammadAGxD22:55
crashanddiethat's like a few thousand difference :P22:55
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luke-jrlol22:55
MohammadAGX-Fade, I can buy it off ebay I suppose, but I hate waiting for delivery22:55
MohammadAGironically, I've been looking for one here in IL since june22:56
luke-jryou'll wait forever if you don't :p22:56
X-FadeThat headset is about 50 eur here.22:56
MohammadAGmy point exactly22:56
MohammadAGand 50 bucks on ebay, shipped from hong kong (why is everything from there nowadays?)22:56
MohammadAGfunny thing is, I went to a Nokia store in JO during summer, and got a weird answer22:56
X-FadeIs it genuine or a copy? :)22:56
andaxluke-jr: can you do speed reading with okular?22:56
luke-jrandax: wtf is that22:57
MohammadAG"people buy chinese knock offs, why do you want a BH-505"22:57
MohammadAGofficial Nokia store ^22:57
javispedroheh.22:57
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andaxluke-jr: i mean holding down the space key and see every page for some milliseconds22:57
luke-jr22:57
luke-jrso wasting CPU time for nothing?22:58
javispedroluke-jr: do you have a shortcut for the unicode ellipsis character?22:58
luke-jryes, it's called . thrice22:58
MohammadAGX-Fade, genuine I suppose, official price is 60 bucks I think22:58
javispedrolunch time. cya22:58
luke-jr22:58
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andaxnomis, why? sometimes its nice to overfly a document without reading it completely22:59
luke-jr22:59
MohammadAGX-Fade, there's a US forwarding service by the post office here, that's how I got my N90022:59
X-FadeMohammadAG: Price doesn't say anything when buying in HK :)22:59
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MohammadAGannoying thing about them would be paying for customs BEFORE it leaves the US22:59
MohammadAGso I had to pay 34% of the $530 when I got my N900 :(22:59
X-FadeMohammadAG: They can also sell you their cheap shit for a high price :)23:00
MohammadAGactually, before I got it, by a week23:00
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MohammadAGX-Fade, heh, even trusted sellers? :P23:00
crashanddie23:00
nomisandax: xchat's autocompletion is stupid...   :-)23:00
MohammadAGI'll see about it after the holidays though23:00
MohammadAGlocal holidays that is, not christmas23:01
crashanddie  ∆23:01
crashanddie∆ ∆23:01
* nomis relurks23:01
X-FadeYes, HK is always a gamble ;)23:01
andaxnomi: yes, pardon, it was meant for  luke-jr :)23:01
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trumeeanybody has Page Up showing history in xterm. I placed a .inputrc but doesnt seem to make any difference23:08
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* Noobmonk3y blames lcuk 23:12
keriocrashanddie: what23:12
trumeenobody?23:12
keriothat's not a triforce23:12
lucentcrashanddie: I think the way forward on N900 wireless is to make upstream work on N90023:13
SpeedEvilWhat do you mean 'n900 wireless' ?23:13
trumeehmm. i am missing a trick here. I do have bash setup but it doesnt pick .inputrc :(23:13
lucentthen to discuss the firmware bugs, and finially, injection support23:13
lucentSpeedEvil: specifically bluetooth and wifi23:13
lcukoi Noobmonk3y !23:13
crashanddiekerio: actually, it is exactly just that23:13
Noobmonk3yhehehe23:13
crashanddiekerio: may not display correctly depending on your font23:14
Noobmonk3ylcuk: up for an april meet?23:14
SpeedEvillucent: you mean for meego?23:14
keriocrashanddie: the triforce is full, not empty23:14
keriothat's empty23:14
lcukNoobmonk3y, i have already booked february :P23:14
Noobmonk3ywhere?23:14
lucentSpeedEvil: I haven't looked into meego, actually23:14
kerio23:14
kerio23:14
SpeedEvillucent: even if you get all the bluetooth and wifi bits to an upstream kjernel, you will not be able to do everything if you23:14
keriowhoops23:14
lucentis meego N900 platform support using upstream kernel wireless?23:14
keriowell, ganon stole a piece23:14
lollooyes23:15
SpeedEvillucent: have the default software stack23:15
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crashanddiekerio: doesn't matter :)23:15
lcukkerio, we do not speak klingon23:15
keriothat's not klingon23:15
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lucentSpeedEvil: I'm trying to remedy, well, to just figure out where I want to spend my time to make injection work on N900 wifi23:15
lcukwhatever it is, its wasting the ink on my irc printer23:15
chxyou irc with a printer? that's really hard core23:16
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lucentSpeedEvil: "somebody" got it working (David/lxp) but is not interested to release the source that they improved23:16
chxwe were doing that at the univ back in the mid 90s, a line printer was printing logs to catch attackers.23:16
lcukchx, its not a problem normally, but its hard work carrying round enough ribbons to use with my n90023:16
lucentwouldn't the proper way forward be to get upstream backported to N900 and then begin discussion about N900 wifi firmware bug, to get injection support?23:17
chxlol23:17
kerioi have my IRC engraved in stone23:17
SpeedEvilah23:17
crashanddiefoo23:17
chxbtw did anyone try actually printing documents from the N900?23:17
lucentjust knowing that it is possible, I don't care to pursue that person who got it working if they are not interested. What do we do to be beneficial to the community?23:18
lcukchx someone asked about cups yesterday actually23:18
lcuklast i saw/heard was for n8x0 though23:18
Appiahif I had a network printer I would try23:18
lcukand possibly from the kde libs23:18
lcukhazy, was a long time ago either way23:18
chxit's packaged for fremenatle http://maemo.org/packages/view/cups/ apparently....23:19
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lcuk\o/ then23:19
lcukso someone with a printer try it :P23:20
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lucentdo we know "George" as in http://marc.info/?l=linux-wireless&m=128799300117905&w=223:20
RST38hlaRRRRdman23:20
RST38hlcuk23:20
RST38hmoo,all23:20
lcuk\o lardman_ RST38h23:20
* lcuk moos gently23:20
RST38hlardman:btw mbarcode stopped saving barcode photos at some point, only stores the text data now23:21
RST38hdunno if it qualifies as a bug or a feature23:21
crashanddie▲ ▲23:21
crashanddie23:21
lucentRST38h: interesting, I remember it stored the photos23:21
crashanddiekerio: happy nao?23:21
lucentalso know that it won't work if the barcode is red on black background ;)23:21
kerio^v^23:21
lcukNoobmonk3y, yes btw23:22
lucentmovie posters have the QR-codes embedded in fancy colours where I work at a movie theater23:22
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Noobmonk3ylol23:22
lucentone day I'm saying oh sure my N900 can decode that, but no dice23:22
keriolucent: huh?23:22
Noobmonk3yyes to where?23:22
MohammadAGlcuk, unable to find package cups23:22
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keriombarcode23:22
MohammadAGor sth23:22
kerioif it doesn't work...23:23
keriotake a picture, then play with gimp until you have black-on-white23:23
lcukMohammadAG, Fremantle Extras-devel free armel    cups 1.3.8-maemo3   http://maemo.org/packages/view/cups/23:23
lcukwas specified23:23
lcuknot tried23:23
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lucentkerio: it was N900 vs. iPhone something-or-other fodder at work, bragging rights who had the most amazing phone.  I wanted nothing to do with it but the Apple user cornered me23:23
lcukkerio, not quite getting the concept of mobile barcode reading23:23
keriolcuk: i have gimp on my phone23:24
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keriothat's mobile!23:24
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lcukfair point.23:24
* lcuk retracts statement23:24
lcuknow, if you can actually use it happily it will be better23:24
lucentalso that gimp does not work in the scenario versus iPhone user23:24
keriowhy?23:24
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MohammadAGlcuk, saw it, but apt doesn't find it, which is weird23:24
keriothat iPhone user has no way to edit photos on the go23:25
lcukMohammadAG, curious23:25
RST38hlcuk: Actually, there are quite a few use scenarios23:25
lcuki know RST38h23:25
* lcuk likes to take pictures of many things with barcodes/info on them23:25
lucentkerio: "because there is no reason to edit photos on the go, I have my iMac to edit photos, silly" or something23:25
lucentyou know what I'm talking about23:25
lcukall sorts of tickets and receipts and maps and things23:25
lucentthere's just no point to a conversation like that23:25
MohammadAGmy printer is connected to my external IP23:25
lcuki have this whole travellog :)23:25
kerio"there is no reason to use a barcode scanner to reach a website that PRINTED RIGHT BELOW THE DAMN POSTER"23:25
MohammadAGi can print otg23:25
kerio*that's23:25
RST38hMohammad: You mean, we can print crap to it? =)23:26
MohammadAGRST38h, yes23:26
crashanddiethe whole n900 vs iphone, and "iphone users are idiots" is getting old very quick, lucent23:26
RST38homg23:26
MohammadAGhmm, shit23:26
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keriolucent: "you wouldn't need a barcode scanner if you could type the address quickly with a real keyboard"23:26
lcukdoes iphone have video out capabilities yet?23:26
lucentkerio: ha, I like that one23:26
* lcuk might get one if so23:26
keriolcuk: since... the first one?23:26
lcukrly?23:27
keriofor videos, at least23:27
lcukwhen I was using my n900 to give presentations from23:27
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lcukthe owners of lesser devices were glaring23:27
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keriooh, keynote can definetely use the tv-out nowadays23:27
kerioat least with an ipad23:27
trumeeis it possible to stop N900 offering the sdcard when connecting in mass storage mode?23:27
lucentcrashanddie: I try not to get involved, honest. The guys at work keep getting iPhones and thinking they're so new and interesting, and want to tell me about it. I'm always saying, hey, I had that hardware feature for months now but the software doesn't quite work right, good for you that you have a jailbroken iPhone or whatever23:28
lcukkerio, ipad != mobile phone23:28
keriotrumee: ass rage mode is quite crap23:28
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trumeekerio: ?23:28
lucenttrumee: not that I know of, but you could pop open the back cover and it will have the magnetic sensor to unmount the card23:28
lucenttrumee: should prevent it from getting exported23:28
trumeelucent: yes, i dont want to take out the sdcard23:28
lucentno, just pop open the back cover23:29
nidOhe didnt say take out the card23:29
lucenteven that is kind of annoying everytime23:29
nidOjust take the cover off23:29
lcuklucent, they are interesting23:29
nidOcard = unmounted23:29
lcuki cant wait to run meego on iphone hardware23:29
nidOor just manually unmount the card, i guess23:29
MohammadAG51lcuk, nevermind, broken lists23:29
trumeei have an otterbox and it is pain even to get to the back cover23:29
lucentlcuk: Would that ever happen? I don't know, rockbox team had such difficulty to run on new iPod / iPhone hardware23:29
keriootters ^_^23:29
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lcuklucent, it will happen23:30
keriolcuk: the iphone hw sucks for meego23:30
lcukeasier if we can get rid of the 3d requirement for meego23:30
lcukbut meh23:30
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* lcuk wonders whether iphone lcd driver supports yuv actually23:30
lcukkerio, why do you think it sucks?23:31
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keriono hardware keyboard, no precise touchscreen23:31
lucentlcuk: I do not see it happening within the product lifetime of an Apple product23:31
lucentalso the multi-touch patents are encumbering to get more precise user control over the interface23:32
lcuklucent, time/motivation/monkeys/keyboards/shakespear etc - once meego portability gets into the swing23:32
lucentlet's hope so!23:32
lcuktheres practically no hardware on the planet that wont be running it23:32
lucentanyhow I'm hopeful for maemo to get injection support23:32
lucentI meant for N900 to have injection support, maemo or meego, whichever23:32
lcuklucent, is this requiring a kernel module modification?23:33
lcuksimilar in principle to the other stuff like hostmode ?23:33
* lcuk is ignorant of tech details of linux network drivers23:33
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MohammadAG51lcuk, lucent injection works, the packages are under the gpl with no source23:34
lcukahhh yuck23:35
MohammadAG51it's a kernel mod, yes, cracked two of my APs23:35
MohammadAG51though they were WEPs23:35
lucentthe source is the problem for me though23:35
lcukwhen the source emerges would it sit in similar manner to the hen stuff you guys are playing with?23:35
MohammadAG51oh and a friend's AP, he knew about it of course23:35
lucentI do my work and submit to upstream, if you don't send upstream it's like it wasn't even done at all :(23:35
MohammadAG51my school had WEP too, so I couldn't miss out :P23:36
lcuklucent, indeed23:36
lcukthat is the meego way also23:36
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lucentthe meego way is to work with upstream, or to ignore them?23:36
MohammadAG51work with them23:36
lucentwant to know where I should focus my efforts anyways, ah okay23:36
lcukhttp://meego.com/about/contribution-guidelines23:36
lcukupstream23:36
MohammadAG51so, how do i set up cups again? :P23:37
DocScrutinizerlcuk: wlan source on h-e-n??23:37
* DocScrutinizer can't see that23:37
lcukDocScrutinizer, no i was asking if its the same principle23:38
lcukand could be organised in similar manner / put together as a patch quilt23:38
DocScrutinizeraiui wlan driver is a module, not built to the kernel23:38
* MohammadAG51 wants to work on the VU kb lights again23:39
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, indeed23:39
* lcuk gives MohammadAG51 a torch23:39
lcukright DocScrutinizer - that was the distinction I was trying to work out23:39
DocScrutinizerso you could just create that module for whatever target kernel23:39
MohammadAG51but if you don't have the source? :)23:39
lcuksure MohammadAG5123:40
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timeless_webchathttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327672/Wheel-Fortune-Contestant-Caitlin-Burke-solves-puzzle-1-letter.html?ito=feeds-newsxml23:43
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lcuktimeless_webchat, :D23:43
timeless_webchatlcuk: it's really amazing23:44
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timeless_webchatalthough i think the audio-video sync in the flash thing is broken23:44
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lcuktimeless_webchat, she did have a good feeling :)23:48
timeless_webchatindeed!23:49
nox-moin23:49
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sp3000timeless_webchat: so ...perl: while ($x) { ...; next if (!$x); }23:53
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timeless_webchatoh wow23:53
sp3000that seems somehow nonsensical :)23:53
* timeless_webchat is watching the smallville episode where clark is given a red cape to go w/ his blue shirt23:54
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timeless_webchatsp3000: where's that from!23:54
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sp3000from russia with love23:55
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