IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2010-11-09

* alterego yawns		00:01
Aranel	I got a very odd problem. In Conversations window, a scrollbar appeared and touch scrolling is not working anymore. http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png Google'd about it but couldn't find anything, can someone help me please?	00:01
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alterego	That's quite cool	00:05
alterego	Have you tried restarting your device?	00:06
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Aranel	alterego: yes, tried that twice.	00:07
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alterego	Eek,	00:07
alterego	Hrm, are you running PR1.2 or 1.3?	00:07
Aranel	alterego: PR1.3	00:07
MohammadAG51	reinstall your theme	00:07
alterego	Could you pastie.org dpkg --list	00:07
alterego	Yeah, try that too :)	00:08
Aranel	MohammadAG51: but It's the default one, how I'm going to that?	00:08
MohammadAG51	reinstall it :p	00:08
alterego	Try switching themes and then switching back.	00:08
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MohammadAG51	hildon-theme-alpha/beta	00:08
MohammadAG51	alpha is blue, beta is orange	00:08
MohammadAG51	to easily pastebin, install pastebinit and	00:09
MohammadAG51	dpkg --list\|pastebinit	00:09
MohammadAG51	gnite	00:10
Aranel	switched to Digital Nature, still bugged. pasting dpkg --list now.	00:11
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Aranel	alterego: http://pastebin.com/0GUdkz45	00:12
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alterego	Did the scroll bar dissappear when you switched to the other theme?	00:14
Aranel	alterego: no, it's still there.	00:14
alterego	Try restarting your device now.	00:14
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Aranel	ok, reinstalling the hildon-theme-alpha, 40 seconds left, rebooting after its completion.	00:16
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alterego	Okay, I'll brb	00:17
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Aranel	alterego: reinstalled and rebooted, It's still there.	00:20
alterego	Eesh	00:20
alterego	Well, I guess you're going to have to reflash.	00:21
alterego	Something sounds like it's got corrupt.	00:21
Aranel	can't I reinstall the conversations app?	00:21
Aranel	and purge config files related to it?	00:22
Aranel	reflashing because of a stupid scrollbar makes me feel really bad :\|	00:22
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alterego	Possibly,	00:24
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DocScrutinizer	I'd check gconftool -R for suspicious keys, maybe by \|grep rollbar and \|grep rolling and \|grep inetic	00:26
Aranel	DocScrutinizer: Nokia-N900-42-11:~# gconftool -R \| grep rollbar Must specify one or more directories to recursively list.	00:26
Aranel	DocScrutinizer: can you help me out about this?	00:26
DocScrutinizer	-R /	00:27
DocScrutinizer	iirc	00:27
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Aranel	DocScrutinizer: http://pastebin.com/2gV0MxCs I noticed an entry, scrollbar = true	00:28
DocScrutinizer	you considered to restore a backup? just the settings might suffice to restore	00:28
Aranel	I don't have any backups to be honest :\|	00:28
DocScrutinizer	probably you're better off with less instead of grep	00:29
DocScrutinizer	or give grep some context	00:30
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DocScrutinizer	like maybe 6 lines headers	00:30
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jacekowski	if anybody is interested	00:31
jacekowski	http://jacekowski.org/Maemo/FMTXD1.3	00:31
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Aranel	DocScrutinizer: stupid question I couldnt understand anything in fact :\|	00:32
Aranel	DocScrutinizer: should I do gconftool -R \| less?	00:32
DocScrutinizer	gconftool -R \| grep -B 5 rollbar	00:32
DocScrutinizer	or less, I'd use less	00:32
Aranel	DocScrutinizer: http://pastebin.com/W3A4n7X2	00:34
DocScrutinizer	searching in less is fine, you just have to either patch your system to handle Enter key correctly, or use ^M	00:34
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Aranel	DocScrutinizer: looks like that scrollbar entry was xterm, not conversations app.	00:34
jacekowski	hmm, first really productive day in couple weeks	00:34
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jacekowski	fixed fmtxd	00:35
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jacekowski	and i managed to work around rslogix5k code protection	00:35
DocScrutinizer	Aranel: :nod: :-/	00:35
jacekowski	btw. if anybody is interested i made a copy of that flash that somebody linked here couple days ago http://jacekowski.org/Maemo/Flash	00:36
DocScrutinizer	Aranel: maybe you find better results by searching for better matchstrings. onversations seems a good one	00:36
Aranel	DocScrutinizer: any other ideas about this issue? I'm kinda hopeless now.	00:36
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DocScrutinizer	but honestly, I'm somewhat just wild guessing. an strace of conversations app might also help	00:37
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DocScrutinizer	probably a reflash is the faster alternative though, of course with a test prior and after restoring your backup you'll of course do of current system	00:38
Aranel	DocScrutinizer: grep conversations didnt return any match, tried gconf /osso/apps/rtcom-messaging-ui: http://pastebin.com/xg0Tr14X	00:39
PaulFertser	jacekowski: linking to a patch would be nice	00:39
PaulFertser	jacekowski: (fixed kernel module)	00:39
Aranel	In fact It's a very slower alternative for me, since I'm using the same system without flashing for a year and It's still rock-solid, except this little annoying scrollbar recently appeared :\|	00:39
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trumee	jacekowski: what is this http://maemo.jacekowski.org/binary/libflashplayer.so ?	00:40
trumee	jacekowski: is this the TI version?	00:40
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Aranel	DocScrutinizer: I guess It's a hard thing to do, but how can I "strace conversations app"?	00:40
Aranel	DocScrutinizer: I really want to solve this issue, instead of reflashing.	00:41
jacekowski	PaulFertser: i don't have one	00:41
jacekowski	PaulFertser: i patched a binary	00:41
DocScrutinizer	sorry, I'm afk now. I guess somebody else here might take over	00:41
PaulFertser	jacekowski: the kernel module?	00:41
jacekowski	PaulFertser: just to default to region 4 to unlock all frequencies	00:41
jacekowski	PaulFertser: yes	00:41
Aranel	oh ok, thanks anyway :\|	00:42
jacekowski	PaulFertser: power locking is still there	00:42
jacekowski	PaulFertser: but fmtxd isn't using it	00:42
trumee	jacekowski: ?	00:42
jacekowski	trumee: dunno	00:42
jacekowski	trumee: that's version somebody linked here couple days ago	00:42
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trumee	jacekowski: so you have tested that binary?	00:42
BCMM	what is "soft poweroff", referred to in systemui.xml?	00:42
trumee	*havent	00:42
PaulFertser	jacekowski: i wonder if maemo users have some "community" kernel, then it might be just updated with pr1.3 fixes (minus that strange USB charging tweak), "power" patches on top and hostmode.	00:42
PaulFertser	jacekowski: of course pr1.3 fixes shouldn't include fmtx locking there.	00:43
jacekowski	PaulFertser: it's called kernel power	00:43
PaulFertser	jacekowski: is it actively maintained?	00:43
jacekowski	~seen t-tan	00:43
infobot	t-tan <~tanner@e179094244.adsl.alicedsl.de> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 150d 3h 2m 46s ago, saying: 'smoking hot device?'.	00:43
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Aranel	[Repost] I got a very odd problem. In Conversations window, a scrollbar appeared and touch scrolling is not working anymore. http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png Google'd about it but couldn't find anything, can someone help me please?	00:44
trumee	Where does libflashplayer sit in N900. Cant find it in ~/.mozilla ?	00:44
* DocScrutinizer wonders what happened to titan or to his device X-P		00:44
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trumee	ah, it is here /usr/lib/browser/plugins	00:45
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jacekowski	make a backup	00:47
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: a big shock?	00:47
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trumee	jacekowski: yeah, done that	00:47
jacekowski	and tell me if it's working	00:47
jacekowski	as i had no chance to test it yet	00:47
trumee	jacekowski: hope it is not a tweaked version 9 binary	00:47
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trumee	jacekowski: is there any real flash 10 page i can test it with?	00:48
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jacekowski	person that linked a link to it to me claims that it's real flash 10	00:49
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Aranel	trumee: I remember some links to real flash 10 pages on Maemo Talk Flash 10.1 thread.	00:49
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trumee	jacekowski: crap i see a globe on adobe find flash version, rather than any numbers	00:50
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jacekowski	http://www.senocular.com/flash/tutorials/flash10drawingapi/demos/Kaleidoscope%20Rose.html	00:51
jacekowski	try this	00:51
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BCMM	if it isn't a contraversial issue, why is there no flash 10? is it adobe's fault, or nokia's?	00:51
jacekowski	nokia's	00:52
trumee	jacekowski: facebook says Upgrade flash player!	00:52
jacekowski	have you restarted browserd?	00:52
trumee	jacekowski: i restarted the device	00:52
PaulFertser	That's user's fault, they should have boycotted flash more :\|	00:52
BCMM	facebook video works fine with version-tweaked flash 9	00:53
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BCMM	PaulFertser: yeah, i wish flash would die	00:53
BCMM	PaulFertser: in the meantime, i'm quite happy to let iphone users apply pressure, while i get to actually use websites	00:53
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PaulFertser	BCMM: i wonder what kind of useful websites really require flash though.	00:54
trumee	jacekowski: nope that is not real flash 10	00:54
BCMM	jacekowski: so what's the deal? does nokia need to pay adobe, or just package their player?	00:54
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jacekowski	BCMM: both	00:55
BCMM	does adobe want an silly amount of money or something?	00:56
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jacekowski	nah, nokia is just abandoning n900	00:57
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Noma_	i went to adobe's own version test site, and my n900 rebooted - with jacekowski's flash plugin installed	00:59
jacekowski	hmm, it looks like it's not working	00:59
BCMM	jacekowski: they are still selling it, and presumably still advertising facebook integration	00:59
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khertan_	Evening ... !	01:07
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tobis87	jacekowski: It is flash 10.1, but only for android... strings show it is "Shockwave Flash 10.1 d61", while the flash for arm on the TI site was 10.1 r92	01:07
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jacekowski	well, somebody here claimed that it's working	01:08
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jacekowski	but i'm not going to point fingers	01:08
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tobis87	Ok, if it works. But I don't believe it until I see it. I'm not so much after flash anyway.	01:10
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jacekowski	http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-11-03.log.html#t2010-11-03T15:52:54	01:11
andax	the tweak flash plugin does a good job?	01:11
tobis87	jacekowski: :-D I also had downloaded it.	01:13
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tobis87	Btw, I have updated hw crypto drivers which do not crash the device anymore. I only included the hw drivers, the src for the hash algorithm and dm driver including nolo (which is still needed to flash) can be found in the backlog.	01:21
tobis87	http://www.mediafire.com/?0krkujb0vevvkva	01:21
cehteh	# apt-cache search sharing	01:22
cehteh	Bus error	01:22
cehteh	uhm?!wtf1!!11	01:22
javispedro	heh	01:23
javispedro	the other day I got a lot of them	01:23
cehteh	works on a 2nd attempt	01:23
javispedro	unaligned writes might cause those	01:23
javispedro	e.g. malloc() returning shit, or mmap, etc.	01:24
cehteh	i know .. but this should normally not happen	01:24
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cehteh	memory corruption .. neutrino radiation from the sun, mindcontrolling rays from the nsa whatever	01:25
javispedro	you tell me	01:25
javispedro	I got tired from those yesterday	01:25
javispedro	still don't know what caused them	01:25
javispedro	well, I do know mmap on my system started returning shit, but I do not know the underlying cause.	01:26
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Aranel	straced the conversations app and couldn't understand anything on it :\| can someone help me to find which configuration files rtcom-messaging-ui using?	01:29
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andax	cehteh: maybe your / partition was full, that can cause crazy errors, at installing more apps in particular.	01:31
cehteh	nah isnt	01:31
cehteh	transient error	01:32
khertan_	http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-15140	01:32
andax	btw: i have no idea why / is so small	01:32
alterego	Anyone here using the hostmode kernel?	01:32
cehteh	i have no idea why nokia fucked it up this way, small / is ok .. but the optification sux	01:32
cehteh	alterego: yes	01:32
khertan_	question of price	01:33
cehteh	MohammadAG made a power kernel with hostmode earlier this evening	01:33
khertan_	/ is on a fast nand	01:33
khertan_	and the 32gb are slower nand	01:33
khertan_	(in fact not an nand but emmcà	01:33
khertan_	)	01:33
andax	cehteh, yeah, in this point its the most fubared operating system i ever seen since decades	01:33
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cehteh	16MB fast nand for / and 512MB or 1G ram would make me more happy	01:33
alterego	cehteh: does your camera work?	01:33
cehteh	alterego: lemme try	01:34
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alterego	Though, it might work with the power kernel.	01:34
cehteh	kamera fcam or what?	01:34
alterego	Standard camera app	01:34
cehteh	video works .. i had once porblems with it	01:35
cehteh	photo too	01:35
alterego	Hrm, I keep getting operation failed messages.	01:35
cehteh	http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/hostmode/Nov_08_2010/power40/	01:35
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alterego	I have coffee, it's 11:39pm and I plan to work through the night.	01:39
cehteh	please package compcache for the n900 :)	01:40
alterego	I already have a job to do :P	01:40
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andax	cehteh: my phone provider sold it as with 1GB RAM but it is in fact 256MB and the rest is SWAP. As if it makes no difference. This is really a question as old as Linux but maemo choose the worst possibility herein.	01:42
iDont	Compcache for the N900 would be great, maybe another time :P	01:42
cehteh	andax: i know	01:42
iDont	I've tried to modify the swap notify patch myself, but the patches from Nokia change swapfile.c pretty much	01:42
DocScrutinizer	~optification	01:42
jacekowski	not really	01:42
infobot	i guess optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence3	01:42
iDont	don't have enough experience to knwo what I'm doing :P	01:42
jacekowski	n900 processor isn't fast enough to deal with compression	01:42
jacekowski	and it would be slower than reading it from emmc	01:43
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cehteh	jacekowski: compcache is blazing fast, it works on slower processors	01:43
jacekowski	name one	01:43
cehteh	some people run it on the G1 iirc	01:44
cehteh	the compcache page has some results	01:44
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cehteh	accessing emmc has more latency and needs more power than compressing/decompressing lzo	01:44
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cehteh	accessing emmc comes not for free .. there are quite some software layers and hardware stuff involved	01:46
andax	iDont: i heard it already helps significantly to move swap to microSD. The data bus is a bottleneck	01:46
andax	not only processor	01:47
DocScrutinizer	meh, first instance if there were less preloaded applications and those that are were less RAM greedy, then we'd be much happier with 256MB ram - hell my Panasonic toughbook had a 300MHz-P-II mobile and 192MB, and was quite ok for KDE3 (except for OOo :-P)	01:47
javispedro	bah	01:47
iDont	andex: I've already moved my swap to a dedicated MicroSD partition ;)	01:47
javispedro	there's never enough RAM.	01:47
javispedro	I used the N810 with 128MiB and NO swap.	01:48
javispedro	and it's not like fremantle is twice in size.	01:48
jacekowski	real 0m 2.27s	01:48
jacekowski	that's how long it takes to compress 10M file	01:48
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: sometimes there's too much RAM. RAM eats power, and has overhead for management as well	01:48
khertan_	iDont, be carefull moving swap to sd ... if it s too slow it ll use more the cpu and can cause sudden reboot	01:48
khertan_	iDont, at least it s my own experiences	01:48
javispedro	jacekowski: 2.27s sounds _a lot_	01:49
javispedro	jacekowski: can't be	01:49
jacekowski	yep	01:49
jacekowski	it is	01:49
javispedro	bz2?	01:49
andax	iDont: which class microSD card should it be?	01:49
jacekowski	lzo	01:49
javispedro	O.o	01:49
iDont	khertan_: it's class 6, no sudden reboots yet. Also, didn't notice anny accelerated battery drain, though I can't back this up except by my own judgement	01:49
iDont	*any	01:50
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: definitely.	01:50
cehteh	i'd like to have swap on uSD and emmc .. at the same priority then the kernel distributed it evently	01:50
jacekowski	cehteh: lzo isn't fast enough for this stuff	01:50
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iDont	lzo not fast enough?	01:50
jacekowski	yep	01:50
cehteh	but unfortunally the busybox swapon doesnt support swap priorities	01:50
khertan_	iDont, personnaly i notice better performance, better battery, and ... sudden reboot with two class 6 micro sd ...	01:50
Juozapas	how to change stand-by clock background?	01:51
khertan_	iDont, maybe this is due to sd ... and i should try with an other one	01:51
javispedro	cehteh: that's not exactly a show stopper	01:51
iDont	kharten_: that's a shame, maybe the sd card has some bad sectors or something?	01:51
khertan_	iDont, didn't notice	01:51
cehteh	javispedro: well for someone lazy like me it is .. dont want to compile util-linux :)	01:51
javispedro	cehteh: have easydebian around?	01:51
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khertan_	iDont, and sudden reboot give no errors unfortunatly	01:52
cehteh	ah that might be an idea ,, no but i can install it	01:52
timeless_	anyone here familiar w/ dpkg-buildpackage and friends?	01:52
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* timeless_ is trying to puzzle through a build process		01:52
khertan_	timeless, depends ...	01:52
javispedro	everybody here should be partially familiar with those :)	01:52
timeless_	is it likely that i could do:	01:52
timeless_	apt-get source foo	01:52
timeless_	and end up with:	01:52
iDont	khertan_: can't help you, I'm running swap on microsd since PR 1.3 was released and haven't experienced any bad behaviour yet	01:52
timeless_	foo-0.1/	01:52
cehteh	since my filesystems are ext4 i even dont need this crappy loopback and could chroot directly (or do without chroot)	01:52
timeless_	and then somehow do a "build step"	01:52
timeless_	which would give me	01:52
andax	i would set it to priorize swap on microSD but keep swap on N900, so i still could remove the microSD card without severe problems (would only need to poweroff or '# swapoff')	01:53
timeless_	foo/foo-0.1/	01:53
timeless_	?	01:53
* cehteh never removes the microsd		01:53
javispedro	"mkdir foo && mv foo-0.1 foo"? /me didn't understand	01:53
khertan_	iDont, maybe i should try again with 1.3 ... i ve try with 1.1	01:53
timeless_	javispedro: i'm looking at a directory which has "stuff"	01:53
jacekowski	iDont: remove back cover	01:53
DocScrutinizer	so, has anybody with 1.3 checked if a mere "cp -r /media/mmc1/<some-huge-stuff> MyDocs" still freezes the whole device?	01:53
jacekowski	iDont: and you will notice bad behaviour	01:54
iDont	jacekowski: haha, no thank you ;)	01:54
timeless_	i don't know what "scripts" have been doing what forms of "black magic'	01:54
iDont	jacekowski: i had this sd card laying around, so I though I could give it an use	01:54
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: i didnt tried, but possibly it still does .. rsync --bwlimit ftw	01:54
DocScrutinizer	pff	01:54
timeless_	$ find bash -name debian; find bash-4.1/ -name debian	01:55
timeless_	bash/4.1-x_maemox_xmx/debian	01:55
timeless_	bash-4.1/debian	01:56
javispedro	sounds completely broken	01:56
timeless_	tell me about it?	01:56
javispedro	nfi what could create bash/${version/ dir	01:56
*** Bash is now known as bshnohighlight		01:56
timeless_	so, my problem is...	01:57
* javispedro congratulates Bash for his excellent choice of a nickname		01:57
timeless_	i have code which tries to rename bash-4.1 to bash	01:57
timeless_	but it obviously fails if bash already exists	01:57
bshnohighlight	javispedro: its my name	01:57
bshnohighlight	...	01:57
cehteh	wtf is "murrianightorange 0.1" my device wants to install/upgrade that	01:57
cehteh	eh some theme .. wtf :P	01:57
* timeless_ congratulates bshnohighlight 's parents on their excellent choice...		01:58
* DocScrutinizer has a deja-vu		01:58
timeless_	http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=56839	01:58
timeless_	MurrinaNightOrange	01:58
timeless_	0.9	01:58
timeless_	GTK 2.x Theme/Style	01:58
iDont	anybody tried using ext4 for /home? A few weeks ago I've built the kernel module into the kernel, formatted the partition as ext4, copied user and opt back (cp -a), but got into a reboot loop back then.	01:58
timeless_	anyway...	01:58
cehteh	cant remember that i installed it	01:58
* DocScrutinizer is searching IRC log for "bashir"		01:59
cehteh	iDont: i wont use it for home because of /opt	01:59
timeless_	iDont: congrats	01:59
iDont	timeless_: ?	01:59
* timeless_ gives iDont an iDunce award		01:59
cehteh	iDont: i have ext4 on MyDocs and uSD	01:59
khertan_	does qt bugs should be submit too to the maemo bug tracker as it s a qt-x11 bugs specific to the Kinectic Scroller ?	01:59
khertan_	http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-15140	01:59
timeless_	khertan_: that's the upstream tracker	02:00
iDont	timeless_: sorry, i don't get it. What would prevent anyone from using a different FS?	02:00
timeless_	there's no reason to file the bugs downstream	02:00
DocScrutinizer	http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-09.log.html#t2010-10-09T23:59:24	02:00
cehteh	iDont: consider /home as vital system partition you need to dive into some pita when you want to make it ext4	02:00
timeless_	unless you feel like annoying andre	02:00
khertan_	timeless, ok	02:00
iDont	timeless_: had performed a reflash anyway, so didn't had anything to lose	02:00
khertan_	timeless_, this isn't the purpose :)	02:00
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cehteh	iDont: you have to fiddle out how the boot process mounts /home .. there are a lot nokiaisms and braintfarts there	02:01
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cehteh	it needs /home quite early ...	02:01
iDont	cehteh: don't worry, I had moved /home to an ext3 partition on the microsd card and edited the genfs awk and rcs late to use that partition as /home	02:01
iDont	cehteh: this setup survived a reboot ;)	02:01
jacekowski	iDont: take back cover off	02:01
iDont	cehteh: so I could parition the emmc freely	02:02
timeless_	javispedro: so um...	02:02
timeless_	about my bash problems	02:02
cehteh	so .. figure out why it doesnt work	02:02
timeless_	any suggestions?	02:02
iDont	jacekowski: i'm not stupid	02:02
timeless_	i can try to glob for */debian and strip /debian	02:02
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timeless_	but that's incredibly annoying	02:02
* timeless_ isn't even sure it'd work		02:03
iPeter-	Is there any "Snap to grid" app what would work on pr 1.3?	02:03
timeless_	iPeter-: there's tweaker or something	02:03
iDont	why does everyone act like everyone is stupid? unknown people can have a linux background too	02:03
DocScrutinizer	timeless_: suggestions? one: build bash4 with "help" enabled, pretty please!	02:03
timeless_	sorry, "Tweakr"	02:04
iPeter-	timeless_: Tried tweakr, still non snap to grid.	02:04
iDont	i took the right precautions before messing with the emmc: i've succesfully moved /home to the microsd card so i could parition the emmc	02:04
timeless_	iPeter-: sorry, it's the only one i know of	02:04
timeless_	DocScrutinizer: ? bash is just an example	02:04
DocScrutinizer	iPeter-: trying alone won't help. You need to enable snap-to-grid in tweakr	02:04
timeless_	oh, heh	02:05
timeless_	yeah well...	02:05
javispedro	timeless_: sorry, but still not understanding what you're trying and to do and why it cannot be done with plain dir movement.	02:05
iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: Have tried small and large "snap-to-grid" options, still none.	02:05
DocScrutinizer	:-/	02:05
DocScrutinizer	no idea then	02:05
timeless_	javispedro: imagine an entire source tree for maemo	02:05
timeless_	then imagine that some other script is managing it	02:05
DocScrutinizer	odds are any other "app" will fail as well	02:05
timeless_	it's also making a mess of it	02:05
timeless_	i want to steal just the useful directories	02:06
javispedro	ah, and you want to _revert_ the mess, not cause it.	02:06
iDont	cehteh: i've written solution #7 on the wiki page about repartitioning the emmc. read that and you'll see that moving /home works just fine	02:06
DocScrutinizer	hehehe	02:06
timeless_	well, _revert_ would be rm -rf in some flavor	02:06
timeless_	i just want a copy of the pristine bits minus the crap	02:06
cehteh	iDont: i just keep it ext3 .. good enough for that	02:07
javispedro	timeless_: if the .dsc files are still in the mess you can potentially extract the original package from them.	02:07
timeless_	javispedro: they are	02:07
timeless_	i used to do that in a previous incarnation	02:07
timeless_	i'd rather not spend the effort on that	02:07
timeless_	it's a lot of extra work which probably is totally wasteful	02:07
iDont	cehteh: yes, surely good enough, but i had nothing to lose, so i gave it a shot ;)	02:07
timeless_	i think */debian will do the right thing	02:08
timeless_	minus the pain of stripping /debian	02:08
javispedro	yes...	02:08
* DocScrutinizer ponders about timeless_ 's incarnations		02:08
cehteh	sometime (lets say 99.9% of the time) i need my device just working :)	02:08
timeless_	echo $(ls -d */debian\|perl -pne 's!/debian!!')	02:08
*** timeless_ is now known as timeless_webchat		02:08
timeless_webchat	i'm using w7 as a vpn client	02:09
timeless_webchat	so i don't have memory for my normal irc client :)	02:09
timeless_webchat	my primary nick is being sat on by my primary ssh client	02:09
timeless_webchat	but the ssh port on that box is down	02:09
Jartza	nights	02:09
timeless_webchat	so i can't animate it :(	02:09
iDont	timeless_webchat: could you please elaborate why /home as ext4 woldn't work?	02:11
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Termana	good morning	02:13
peb_	Good Mornin Termana	02:13
jacekowski	because ext4 == /dev/null with delay	02:13
javispedro	hi Termana	02:13
iDont	jacekowski: i disagree, haven't lost any data with it yet	02:14
jacekowski	i said - with delay	02:14
cehteh	yeah thats a myth .. ext4 works quite reliable	02:14
iDont	jacekowski: but i don't like to turn this into a FS discussion	02:14
timeless_webchat	i'm not saying it won't work	02:15
javispedro	even if ext4 was stable in the 2.6.3x series, it surely wasn't in the 2.6.2x	02:15
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javispedro	s/was/is	02:16
timeless_webchat	i'm just applauding your efforts to brick your device	02:16
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iDont	timeless_webchat: okay, as i said: i had nothing to lose, plus I know my way around in Linux	02:16
iDont	timeless_webchat: so i gave it s shot, but i failed	02:16
iDont	timeless_webchat: and i'd like to know why, so i asked here	02:17
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iDont	javispedro: dunno about stability in 2.6.2x series, but i wanted to give it a shot ;)	02:17
jacekowski	no ext4 support in kernel	02:17
iDont	jacekowski: i've said earlier i had compiled support in	02:17
iDont	i would really like to know what went wrong, everything looked good	02:18
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andax	i want ibm's jfs instead ext4, it was supported in mandrake linux since 1999	02:19
* cehteh uses ext4 since march or so .. not a single problem reported by fsck		02:19
Jef91	So before I go through and manually fix hundreds of calender entries - is there a fix to remove the "daylight savings time adjustment" on my n900 calender?	02:19
Termana	iDont, I bet that's what she said	02:19
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iDont	Termana: :D	02:19
cehteh	and by javispedro's rants i'd say he is just guessing but not using it	02:19
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jacekowski	Jef91: as far as i know it's storing time in unix timestamp	02:20
javispedro	cehteh: rants?	02:20
cehteh	there are some known problems with ext4 on the .28 kernel	02:20
javispedro	cehteh: read again my message, I just said exactly the same you have just said.	02:20
cehteh	but these are not that dramatic .. considering all the other bugs the device has	02:20
jacekowski	Jef91: so if you would play with /etc/localtime to pass different time to calendar you could fix it there	02:20
jacekowski	Jef91: but that's complicated	02:20
jacekowski	Jef91: but i'm not sure what is your problem	02:21
Jef91	jacekowski this is the worst fucking feature EVER. It has the right date for things before this past saturday	02:21
cehteh	sidenote that ext4 gives a noticeable performance improvement	02:21
Jef91	All the dates after this saturday are an hour too soon	02:21
jacekowski	Jef91: that shouldn't happen	02:21
iDont	cehteh: thats why i gave it a shot :)	02:21
jacekowski	i can't really imagine how it could be broken	02:22
iDont	anyway, steps I've performed: compile kernel with ext4 support, cp -a /home/* to microsd ext3 partition, edited genfstab.awk and rcS-late to use new partition as home, reboot, mkfs.ext4 emmc partition, cp -a files back, reverted changed rcS-late and genfstab.awk, reboot	02:22
jacekowski	every libc implementation does it correctly	02:22
Jef91	jacekowski It happened back with PR1.0 as well - last march when the time changed	02:22
jacekowski	~blame nokia	02:23
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* infobot blames nokia (and Canada) for all the evil in the world		02:23
chx	what does it mean if the LED flashes ... blue?	02:23
chx	never saw this before.	02:23
jacekowski	chx: message	02:23
Termana	chx, aliens have come to visit you	02:23
chx	Message?????	02:23
chx	You mean, SMS?	02:23
jacekowski	yes	02:23
* chx is shocked		02:23
javispedro	does it flash _any other color other than blue_ at all, when not charging?	02:23
ieatlint	or im	02:23
chx	noone knows this number	02:23
ieatlint	or email	02:23
chx	not even me.	02:23
Termana	Obviously chx doesn't get a lot of contact from the outside	02:23
Termana	:p	02:23
javispedro	indeed.	02:23
jacekowski	chx: marketing probably	02:23
chx	oh yes. Wind Mobile wants me to pay.	02:24
chx	silly them.	02:24
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timeless_webchat	chx: it could be a googletalk message	02:24
timeless_webchat	or a jabber message	02:24
timeless_webchat	or a skype message...	02:24
chx	right, right	02:25
javispedro	not with the default configuration	02:25
javispedro	which for some reason disables leds for IM...	02:25
javispedro	and email.	02:25
andax	chx: money makes the world go round (or so they say)	02:25
chx	Another lame question, can i get rid of the icons in the menu i do not need?	02:25
timeless_webchat	javispedro: too expensive on battery? :)	02:25
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timeless_webchat	chx: you could use catorize	02:25
chx	andax: yeah but i do not pay my phone bills, there is an office manager for that.	02:25
javispedro	timeless_webchat: might be an actual reason	02:25
jacekowski	chx: apmefo	02:25
chx	apmefo says "create subfolders"	02:26
chx	i saw that	02:26
chx	that does not sound like a menu eidtor to me?	02:26
jacekowski	then you can create subfolder "useless shit"	02:26
jacekowski	and drop your stuff there	02:26
* timeless_webchat would call it ',' instead of that, but :)		02:26
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jacekowski	that's what makes us different	02:27
jacekowski	and other stuff as well	02:27
andax	chx: ~ # apt-get install office-manager o_O	02:27
chx	LOL	02:27
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chx	btw is it just me or witter eats battery for breakfast?	02:28
andax	^ great timing lolloo :)	02:28
jacekowski	chx: try gps at the same time	02:28
jacekowski	chx: you can probably drain battery in less than 45 minutes	02:28
lolloo	hey andax!	02:28
lolloo	hey all!	02:28
chx	jacekowski: lol	02:29
andax	hey lolloo :-)	02:29
javispedro	45 minutes?? red hot	02:29
lolloo	I got meego runing on my phone!	02:29
jacekowski	gps + internet + little bit of OC	02:29
lolloo	but terribly slow!	02:29
jacekowski	and it's gone	02:29
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jacekowski	fmtxd uses a bit as well	02:30
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lolloo	I hear that N9 will be using MeeGo!	02:30
jacekowski	yep	02:30
jacekowski	maemo is abandoned	02:30
lolloo	but I dont like the design of the phone!	02:30
jacekowski	n900 was first and last phone with maemo	02:31
lolloo	maemo is great in my thoughts!	02:31
Termana	Fuck me	02:31
jacekowski	i would really like to see a phone with SAW screen	02:31
Termana	I'm just going to go die in a coffin	02:31
Termana	Excuse me	02:31
andax	jacekowski: next probably has a adobe/microsoft OS	02:31
lolloo	lol @ Termana	02:31
lolloo	is there any apps that benifit from QT?	02:32
lolloo	on N900 I mean.	02:32
chx	there are a few, i saw a QT Web twitter app	02:33
tripzero	other than all the benefits of Qt, no	02:33
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tripzero	my apps on maemo use qt	02:33
tripzero	all of them	02:33
lolloo	wow	02:33
lolloo	How so?	02:34
tripzero	(meaning, all the ones I wrote)	02:34
chx	ooooh installing this app caused it to reread the menu file i edited in xterm.	02:34
alterego	tripzero: I was gonna say ;)	02:34
chx	WIN.	02:34
tripzero	alterego, well yanno... i rewrote hildon and stuff	02:34
lolloo	hehehe	02:34
alterego	All of the apps I've wrote/write are in Qt too ..	02:34
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tripzero	in QML!!!eleven11	02:34
alterego	That need a UI that is.	02:34
lolloo	wow aseosme	02:34
lolloo	would you kindly share?	02:35
alterego	My apps?	02:35
alterego	Nope :P	02:35
lolloo	hehehe	02:35
chx	wait someone ported stratagus to maemo?	02:35
alterego	Well, one is in extras, the others are wip	02:35
tripzero	extras-devel ftw	02:35
Termana	Everything is on extras-devel	02:36
* lolloo checking		02:36
Termana	Your mum is on extras-devel	02:36
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chx	Is there a Civilization clone?	02:36
chx	Popolous?	02:36
lolloo	hehehe old joke!	02:36
tripzero	Termana, beat me to it!	02:36
* chx is very old fashioned game wise.		02:36
chx	simply put... dosbox???	02:36
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tripzero	but what's a 'mum'?	02:37
andax	chx: freeciv	02:37
javispedro	someone ported Extras-devel to Maemo. But then he died in a coffin.	02:37
chx	hey, i was kidding with dosbox.	02:37
chx	o_O	02:37
lolloo	ha!	02:37
chx	that's... that's...	02:37
nox-	hm didnt i see a bochs `somewhere'?	02:37
Termana	nox-, yeah bochs is in there	02:37
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Termana	but bochs is slow	02:38
nox-	(not that it will be fast but... :)	02:38
nox-	yeah	02:38
chx	did someone port Windows 7 for kicks?	02:38
lolloo	when will they fix portiat mode in N900!	02:38
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nox-	dosbox needs a x86 cpu	02:38
lolloo	its hurting my sole!	02:38
Termana	nox-, qemu is much better, too bad no one has compiled it directly for Maemo though. Usable in a chroot though :p	02:38
tripzero	lolloo, it is fixed... in meego	02:38
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chx	nox-: http://maemo.org/packages/view/dosbox/	02:38
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lolloo	your correct tripzero	02:38
chx	nox-: it looks like it doesnt.	02:39
lolloo	just kind of wished on Maemo too!	02:39
tripzero	also, it's really easy for apps to switch back and forth between potrait and landscape in maemo	02:39
andax	chx: i tried freeciv, works on n900 but is a bit complcated compared to playing on the desktop..	02:39
tripzero	...using Qt	02:39
nox-	chx, wow	02:39
tripzero	apparently not many apps take advantage of it though	02:39
nox-	chx, does that jit like qemu too?	02:39
javispedro	nox-: partially.	02:39
tripzero	i've had the homescreen get stuck in portrait mode once. total b0rkage	02:40
Nirtal	Hello! Does anyone knows if it's possible to make calls from my computer though my n900. Using the computers headphones and mic to talk	02:40
lolloo	yes tripzero	02:40
lolloo	it happened to me all the time	02:40
andax	chx: recommend to use smallest map (turns are getting slow in the end and the screen size is rather small for such game)	02:40
lolloo	too good to be true!	02:41
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tripzero	Nirtal, look at ssh and the dbus-send commands for making calls	02:41
Nirtal	ok	02:42
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tripzero	Nirtal, in other words, yes, it is possible	02:42
andax	Nirtal: something like skype?	02:42
cehteh	thanks for the hint about the easy-debian swapon .. that works, having 2 swaps with equal priority now .. lets see how this works	02:42
tripzero	Nirtal, however, you may end up needing to use bluetooth headphones/mic	02:42
Nirtal	yes, but with my telephone :P	02:42
Nirtal	I got bluetooth on my computer	02:43
DocScrutinizer	cehteh: you'll cry	02:43
tripzero	you want to configure bluez to use connect hsp/hfp to the phone	02:43
alterego	Heh	02:43
cehteh	lets see	02:43
Nirtal	And while I'm home, I wan't to use my headphones and microphone in my computer to talk in the phone	02:44
* javispedro agrees you'll end up crying		02:44
cehteh	cat /proc/swaps	02:44
cehteh	FilenameTypeSizeUsedPriority	02:44
cehteh	/dev/mmcblk0p3 partition786424661401	02:44
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cehteh	/media/mmc1/.swap file2621361412521	02:44
tripzero	Nirtal, ^^ see my last comment if you missed it	02:44
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Nirtal	Didn't miss :P	02:44
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cehteh	lets start fennec :)	02:45
tripzero	Nirtal, also check out ofono	02:45
tripzero	you can use ofono on your computer and use the n900 as a mode (hfp bluetooth profile)	02:45
tripzero	s/mode/modem/	02:45
infobot	tripzero meant: you can use ofono on your computer and use the n900 as a modem (hfp bluetooth profile)	02:45
tripzero	that's actually probably the easiest way	02:46
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Nirtal	ok	02:46
Nirtal	thnx	02:46
tripzero	ofono.org	02:46
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alterego	That's cool.	02:46
javispedro	aren't you completely overcomplicating stuff	02:46
* DocScrutinizer feels headache coming		02:47
Nirtal	btw, how do I display all files some package installed?	02:47
alterego	I wanted to do the same yesterday ..	02:47
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alterego	(Use laptop as speaker phone for N900)	02:47
javispedro	I think I already said this but... I clicked on "Use my laptop as speakers for my phone" on Windows 7 and it all worked.	02:47
javispedro	It also has a textbox for dialing numbers.	02:47
javispedro	so, the N900 is not a weird phone in this regard.	02:48
javispedro	no need for ofono.	02:48
tripzero	oh, i assumed he meant linux desktop	02:48
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tripzero	not windows...	02:48
tripzero	cuz i forget that people still actually use windows	02:48
tripzero	like javispedro	02:48
* tripzero hides		02:49
iDont	hehe	02:49
javispedro	even on linux desktop, just by connecting it via usb you can already hook to pnatd and start sending ATDT commands.	02:49
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javispedro	(what do you think ofono does???)	02:49
tripzero	javispedro, yep, just cat the right ATDT commands and "win"	02:49
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tripzero	javispedro, setting up the bluetooth connection to hsp?	02:49
tripzero	err hfp?	02:49
chx	HM original Warcraft II CD and Battle.net edition does not work??	02:49
javispedro	tripzero: why ofono should do that? it's supposed to be a gsm stack, not a bt stack.	02:50
tripzero	javispedro, it does both	02:50
tripzero	it uses bluez	02:50
tripzero	for hfp modems	02:50
DocScrutinizer	COUGH	02:50
javispedro	this makes no sense.	02:50
DocScrutinizer	(ouch, that headache)	02:50
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tripzero	http://ofono.org/wiki/hands-free-profile	02:51
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DocScrutinizer	\o/ freed up 6.6GB on my PC /home, by tgz'ing a folder called Openmoko/images to a dusty partition labeled with a weird "D"	02:52
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Nirtal	tripzero how can I see what files bluez installed?	02:54
javispedro	pft.http://padovan.org/blog/2010/02/handsfree-profile-into-bluez-and-ofono/	02:54
DocScrutinizer	tripzero: I'd envision sth like: BT-HFP<->ofono<->modem	02:54
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DocScrutinizer	rather than ofono<->BT-HFP<->modem	02:55
tripzero	well, it's actually probably: ofono -> bluez/HFP -> n900	02:55
DocScrutinizer	o.O	02:55
tripzero	ofono just sees the hfp phone as another "modem"	02:55
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DocScrutinizer	(yay, that headache geting worse every minute)	02:55
* DocScrutinizer mubles 27b/6 27b/6		02:56
alterego	Ah, nice that coffee has kicked in.	02:56
DocScrutinizer	COFFFEEEEE!	02:57
javispedro	getting rid of pulseaudio is going to become harder every day.	02:57
lolloo	am building maemo on a coffee machine	02:57
lolloo	hehehe	02:57
DocScrutinizer	it's like trying to get rid of hepa-C	02:57
lolloo	hahaahaaaa	02:58
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cehteh	openoffice on the n900 has some wtf factor :P	03:00
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lolloo	its pure amazing cehteh	03:00
cehteh	i am surprised that it works ..	03:01
javispedro	what the hell is going on on #meego	03:01
merlin_1991	I gotta try the megoo chroot on the n900 :D	03:01
merlin_1991	s/megoo/meego/	03:01
infobot	merlin_1991 meant: I gotta try the meego chroot on the n900 :D	03:01
cehteh	fasten seat belts please, starting iceweasel	03:02
DocScrutinizer	cehteh: start and close. then swapoff your swapfile, and do again. time both	03:02
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javispedro	DocScrutinizer: useless benchmark	03:03
alterego	hahah	03:03
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: you mean I should get my coffee prepared first?	03:03
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cehteh	DocScrutinizer: didnt you once saied that emmc and uSD are on different busses and thus may scale/interleave a bit better?	03:03
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: that would work :) but I was telling because second run will be inevatibly faster	03:03
* javispedro needs coffee too.		03:04
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merlincorey	s/regex//	03:04
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: at least i dont notice it slower now ..	03:04
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cehteh	just manually added that swap, nothing persistent yet	03:04
alterego	Been getting a lot of segfaults recently.	03:04
alterego	I must be losing the ability to code or something :/	03:04
cehteh	not adjusted to the ballmer peak?	03:04
alterego	Oh, that was just an infinite recursion.	03:05
alterego	(caused by a search/replace gone haywire) ^.^	03:05
* cehteh hands alterego an trampoline		03:05
cehteh	ok closing iceweasel makes my device lag .. but i didnt tied that with normal swap before :P	03:06
* DocScrutinizer waits for coffee to kick in, and enlightenment come down		03:06
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DocScrutinizer	why is second call faster?	03:06
* merlin_1991 wonders if the guys in here ever sleep		03:07
DocScrutinizer	except for buffers maybe	03:07
cehteh	second call?	03:07
timeless_webchat	merlin_1991: nah	03:07
cehteh	ah that	03:07
DocScrutinizer	<javispedro> DocScrutinizer: that would work :) but I was telling because second run will be inevatibly faster	03:07
cehteh	yes but there is drop_caches	03:07
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: buffers, frames will have been evicted to swap partition	03:07
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javispedro	etc.	03:07
cehteh	and well with only 256MB true ram, there isnt really any ram wasted for buffers :P	03:07
DocScrutinizer	(OUCH that headache!!)	03:07
javispedro	cehteh: serioussssslyyyy if it seems too low for you, you should try a n810.	03:08
DocScrutinizer	you don't tell me friggin OS will swap out buffers, do you?	03:08
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: no, but it will keep fresh, free RAM ready by the second run time	03:08
cehteh	javispedro: echo 3 >/proc/vm/drop_caches case fixed	03:09
javispedro	cehteh: it's not only about buffers	03:09
javispedro	you should also kill both swap partitions	03:09
javispedro	but that would also be cheating	03:09
cehteh	well possibly you can do the whole testing with a reboot, but that isnt really an use case	03:09
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javispedro	because a) h-d would kill preloaded apps, b) the swap would be free which on the n900 means swapouts will go faster	03:10
cehteh	long time behaviour under one or 2 swap files would be the point	03:10
DocScrutinizer	I'm not interested in usecases. I want to know if swapping got faster	03:10
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DocScrutinizer	and how much	03:10
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: i am not interested in that :) ..	03:10
javispedro	because the answer is "it didn't"	03:10
DocScrutinizer	yes	03:11
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internetishard	is there a music id program for maemo?	03:11
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: you can raid0 and see .. actually with the power kernel and loopback devices i can do a small test ..	03:11
DocScrutinizer	I'd expect even with dedicated busses/IFs there's a mutual lock for access to eMMC and uSD	03:11
internetishard	I was envious when an iphone user started playing a song from his phone after exposing it to a ~4sec clip of that song about 30seconds prior	03:11
cehteh	loopback devices on files on each .. raid0 that and then dd test it	03:11
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: yeah can test that with this setup, that takes only a few minutes to setup moment	03:12
javispedro	cehteh: this is not a PC.	03:12
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SpeedEvil	internetishard: As I understand it, that's server based.	03:13
SpeedEvil	internetishard: It uploads a clip to a server	03:13
cehteh	javispedro: but its still linux	03:13
DocScrutinizer	we got even a DMA for transfering blocks from IF to RAM, but I guess it's not a per-IF DMA	03:13
javispedro	on a PC, a hdd controller using a few unneeded museconds of host cpu time would be frowned upon	03:13
DocScrutinizer	and I dunno id it's at all used for this	03:13
internetishard	just found instictiv, maybe that will work, SpeedEvil	03:14
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: i am already testing .. wait a minute	03:14
javispedro	on embedded, it is the rule as long as it saves battery.	03:14
cehteh	(or more .. writing a 1gb file :P)	03:14
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: you get much higher bandwidth dd'ng from both mmc and sd at once	03:14
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: closely approaching the uncontended limit	03:15
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: sounds nice	03:15
cehteh	ah ok stopping my tests then	03:15
SpeedEvil	That's for read	03:15
SpeedEvil	I don't think I tested write	03:15
cehteh	ok lemme test write .. bah	03:15
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javispedro	~troll	03:16
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, troll is webossucks	03:16
javispedro	hm...	03:17
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: btw writing full speed gives slight dropouts while hearing netradio .. less dramatic than 1.2	03:17
DocScrutinizer	o.O	03:17
DocScrutinizer	~troll javispedro	03:17
* infobot hereby declares javispedro a troll		03:17
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javispedro	there needs to be a way to set per-channel fact-lets on infobot	03:18
DocScrutinizer	~troll himself	03:18
* infobot hereby declares himself a troll		03:18
javispedro	s/fact-lets/factlets	03:18
DocScrutinizer	err, herself	03:18
internetishard	Is instinctiv the best song identification app for maemo?	03:19
cehteh	writing to uSD gives more dramatic dropouts	03:19
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: there is, but you need to talk tim riker into enabling it for your channel	03:19
SpeedEvil	uSD probably has less predictable latency	03:19
DocScrutinizer	I got it for #openmoko and *-cdevel	03:19
cehteh	i mean my device is blocked now :P	03:20
cehteh	grr :)	03:20
DocScrutinizer	cehteh: that's what I meant	03:20
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javispedro	DocScrutinizer: does it create an entirely separate database? or is it a per-factlet setting?	03:20
cehteh	yeah .. unfortunally dd has no --bwlimit :P	03:20
DocScrutinizer	there's some ugly nasty bug somewhere, killing device on concurrent IO on both uSD and emmc	03:21
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: i could even suspect some bug which sends the kernel out for lunch	03:21
cehteh	yep	03:21
DocScrutinizer	it has nothing to do with bandwidth	03:21
javispedro	.oO(probably not a bug...)	03:21
javispedro	but a plain limitation.	03:21
cehteh	ok i declare this kernel as dead	03:21
cehteh	if the kernel hangs its a bug	03:21
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: if it were no bug, then device would recover eventually	03:22
javispedro	there you have. cehteh just answered DocScrutinizer's question about PR1.3 cp big_stuff /sd	03:22
DocScrutinizer	yeas	03:22
DocScrutinizer	yes	03:22
cehteh	nah ... eventually it came back!!	03:22
DocScrutinizer	that's what I meant by that's what I meant	03:22
javispedro	I'm quite sure the kernel doesn't hang. just enters swap hell.	03:22
DocScrutinizer	o.O	03:23
DocScrutinizer	still a bug	03:23
javispedro	in swap hell a thousand daemons will keep him busy for eternity allocating memory!	03:23
cehteh	not swap hell didnt swapped much	03:24
javispedro	doesn't matter. even if it just tried to swap a bit, which it probably did.	03:24
javispedro	I'd play with different io schedulers.	03:24
cehteh	is there mdadm packages .. /me tries	03:24
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: on ass rage mode, cp uSD emmc even raped my desktop CPU with wchan 100	03:25
cehteh	damn no	03:25
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cehteh	mhn now i need a female:female dongle to try out hostmode ... :]	03:31
cehteh	no electronics shop open at night :P	03:32
alterego	I got one when I got my N810 all those many many months ago.	03:32
cehteh	haha	03:32
alterego	Actually, it was probably the N800	03:32
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cehteh	must D+/D- be crossed?	03:33
cehteh	DocScrutinizer?	03:33
DocScrutinizer	err	03:33
cehteh	i can solder, but i dont know usb specs :)	03:34
alterego	Heh	03:34
DocScrutinizer	cehteh: I'd guess no	03:34
cehteh	not a single bit :P	03:34
cehteh	ok	03:34
alterego	Mine doesn't.	03:34
DocScrutinizer	see wiki.openmoko.org/specialized_usb_cables or similar	03:35
cehteh	i am too old .. with such hack i am always thinking about a null-modem	03:35
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DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Specialized_USB_cables	03:35
cehteh	hell ya .. there was once this guy who made an adapter for PC hard drives for his Atari .. which had the opposite endianess	03:36
cehteh	just by flipping the cable :)	03:36
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alterego	Heh	03:37
cehteh	endianess correction in hardware .. today someone would start with some FPGA :P	03:38
nox-	haha	03:39
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alterego	Weird, I wonder why nothing seems to be working now.	03:40
alterego	My app wont even initialize the GPS hardware anymore :(	03:40
* nox- was an atari user too back in the days (anyone remember MiNT?) - they had something called acsi (iirc), which could be interfaced to scsi easily enough (i had a 240 M quantum scsi disk in an atari)		03:41
Nirtal	tripzero still here?	03:43
alterego	This is quite frustrating.	03:43
cehteh	alterego: C/C++?	03:43
alterego	Qt/C++	03:43
tripzero	Nirtal, yeh	03:43
tripzero	for a few seconds	03:43
Nirtal	isn't bluez default bluetooth program in maemo 5 n900?	03:44
cehteh	alterego: http://lumiera.org/nobug_manual.html (okok Qt has its own stuff for that iirc)	03:44
tripzero	Nirtal, yeha	03:45
cehteh	qt isnt really C++ anymore :P	03:45
tripzero	Qt has extended C++	03:45
Nirtal	You mean like i should do something like this, use bluez on my phone as a hfp modem/server and then use ofone on my pc to connect to my hfp?	03:45
alterego	cehteh: the problem is actually in qt mobility I believe.	03:46
tripzero	Nirtal, pair your phone up with your computer. install ofono. use ofono scripts to make phonecalls. profit!	03:46
tripzero	Nirtal, in short: http://ofono.org/wiki/hands-free-profile	03:47
cehteh	alterego: no idea, this was just a nice place to put an ad :)	03:47
alterego	Hewh	03:47
Nirtal	ok, couldn't see any ofone things for windows directly. no precompiled?	03:47
tripzero	oh, you are using windows?	03:47
tripzero	doh!	03:47
ieatlint	alterego: i have experience this problem with qtmobility/libqtm-location	03:47
ieatlint	experienced	03:47
tripzero	Nirtal, win7?	03:47
ieatlint	you're not alone :P	03:47
Nirtal	yes	03:47
tripzero	if so, talk to jacekowski about just making it work	03:48
tripzero	he apparently has done it	03:48
tripzero	gtg	03:48
Nirtal	ok	03:48
cehteh	n8	03:48
Nirtal	thnx for the help Trewas	03:48
Nirtal	tripzero	03:48
Nirtal	jacekowski are you here?	03:49
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alterego	ieatlint: yeah, I remember someone telling me, I guess it was probably you.	03:50
alterego	ieatlint: did you get a fix?	03:50
muellisoft	hm. can I make my N900 connect to the Internet via Bluetooth over my other phone? I guess I want the N900 to do DUN with my other phone...	03:51
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alterego	Muelli: yes you can.	03:51
alterego	There's a bluetooth DUN package in extras	03:51
Muelli	alterego: nice. I've installed that. How do I use it? blush I don't see anything in Settings nor a new application	03:52
ieatlint	alterego: nope :(	03:52
DocScrutinizer	Nirtal: check backscroll/irc-chanlog	03:52
alterego	Muelli: just turn bluetooth on	03:53
Muelli	alterego: nah. I don't want my N900 to provide DUN. I want to make it use DUN from my other phone :)	03:53
ieatlint	although i can say that the test application i wrote to try and figure wtf is going on has much better reliability than my app where i tried to actually use the data	03:53
alterego	Muelli: oh, then you don't need to install bluetooth dun ..	03:53
alterego	Muelli: the N900 can do it by default.	03:53
Muelli	alterego: olry?! I thought I had looked everywhere. I haven't a GUI for that yet. Is there any? If so, could me point me to it?	03:54
alterego	Muelli: Settings->Internet Connections->Connections->New	03:55
Nirtal	DocScrutinizer any specific word I can search to find?	03:55
Muelli	i know my N810 can... And I guess the Linux on the N900 is well capable of doing that.	03:55
Muelli	alterego: that fires up the WLAN wizard. In the second page, I can't select anything else than "WLAN"	03:55
alterego	Hrm, I might be wrong ..	03:55
alterego	Muelli: yeah, just noticed that.	03:55
DocScrutinizer	[2010-11-09 01:47:47] <javispedro> I think I already said this but... I clicked on "Use my laptop as speakers for my phone" on Windows 7 and it all worked.	03:56
alterego	:	03:56
alterego	:(	03:56
alterego	Sorry, I was obviously mistaken.	03:56
DocScrutinizer	[2010-11-09 01:47:56] <javispedro> It also has a textbox for dialing numbers.	03:56
javispedro	... and it all started by right clicking the bluetooth icon on the notification area.	03:57
Muelli	alterego: people apparently have tried that: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=434448&postcount=3 :) Lemme see what I can get from that.	03:58
alterego	DocScrutinizer: yeah, I don't use W7 :P	03:58
alterego	Muelli: good find.	03:59
javispedro	Muelli: there's a bluetooth-dun package in extras	03:59
alterego	javispedro: he's doing the opposite, he wants the N900 to use another bluetooth modem	04:00
javispedro	ah.	04:00
javispedro	probably broken since fremantle..	04:01
alterego	More likely disabled ..	04:01
internetishard	ug	04:01
internetishard	instinctiv doesn't recognize shit	04:02
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_DUN	04:02
alterego	DocScrutinizer: again, it's the opposite, he wants the N900 to use another devices DUN service ...	04:03
alterego	-_-	04:03
Muelli	DocScrutinizer: It describes very well how it works on the N810, but not on N900 ;-)	04:03
DocScrutinizer	if the N900 is not equipped with a data SIM, it may use another GSM/3G phone as a modem to access the network, and act as a Bluetooth DUN client	04:04
DocScrutinizer	</quote>	04:04
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alterego	You have to take the SIM out to enable that?	04:04
alterego	:/	04:04
DocScrutinizer	haha	04:04
Muelli	nah. I don't buy that. What is a "data SIM" anyway..? It just reads "it may". Which is big euphemism ;-) Of course it "may", if you configure rfcomm, ppp and friends ;-)	04:05
alterego	Muelli: agreed ;)	04:05
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DocScrutinizer	wtf?	04:06
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DocScrutinizer	would you please try if N8x0 method to tether a phone to NIT also works on N900/fremantle. Rather than doing linguistic dissect	04:07
alterego	DocScrutinizer: we've been through this.	04:07
alterego	There is no option other than wifi	04:07
DocScrutinizer	duh, aha	04:07
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alterego	If you'd paid attention you would have known this :P	04:07
DocScrutinizer	you're sure you paired the device prior to that?	04:07
Muelli	wtf? Would you read what's been posted twice or thrice by now? ;-)	04:07
Muelli	DocScrutinizer: twice ;-)	04:08
alterego	I have a paired a device.	04:08
alterego	Which has DUN yes :P	04:08
Nirtal	javispedro have you succeded in making calls from you computer though the phone?	04:08
javispedro	yes...	04:08
javispedro	however, a few days ago someone said here that pr1.3 broke his headset	04:09
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javispedro	so, ymmv	04:09
DocScrutinizer	:-O	04:10
Nirtal	javispedro how did you do?	04:10
Nirtal	How did you conf you n900, and how did you conf you computer?	04:11
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Macer	hello	04:11
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: ...broke his headset?? how is that? and ...related to "making calls from you computer"	04:11
javispedro	On the N900 I had bluetooth-dun; on the desktop I used win7.	04:11
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: because I guess there's a hidden "with audio coming through desktop spekears" assupmtion there.	04:12
Macer	omg.. avatar collecters edition?	04:12
Macer	seriously?	04:12
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Macer	it is reasons like that... that people pirate movies :)	04:12
Nirtal	javispedro do you have anything moore then windows 7	04:13
Nirtal	?	04:13
Nirtal	some program to handle it all?	04:13
javispedro	Nirtal: ah	04:13
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javispedro	Nirtal: broadcom stack? not sure, OEM crap. Either way I was using windows client.	04:13
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Nirtal	ok, I install bluetooth-dun. what's the next step?	04:15
javispedro	try it?	04:17
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javispedro	I always tell that story because I didn't have to do a thing. It just worked.	04:17
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javispedro	In fact I was booting windows because I wanted to test garminchatd (aka my little program that makes n900 talk garmin protocol)	04:18
javispedro	and while setting up the serial port profile I noticed the many options on the device page and started testing them.	04:18
alterego	Heh	04:19
alterego	Right, I think it's time for bed now.	04:27
alterego	g'night folks.	04:27
Termana	good night alterego	04:27
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fredrin	hay	05:00
fredrin	how can i copy contact to simcard?	05:00
fredrin	nooo you can't	05:01
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DocScrutinizer51	no you can't (except maybe by using gnokii via pnatd - I'd not start to try this. too much hassle)	06:01
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VOA	hello all	06:44
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VOA	is it possible to use the n900 wifi to give wifi to the ipod touch while round the city?	06:44
nox-	i think you need kernel-power for that, and mobilehotspot	06:46
VOA	so there is no way we can give the ipod touch wifi while round the city using the wifi of n900 maby from usb?	06:46
nox-	eh?	06:47
nox-	mobilehotspot is the package name	06:48
nox-	http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/mobilehotspot/	06:48
nox-	http://wiki.maemo.org/Kernel_Power	06:48
VOA	so we install that on n900 and should give power to wifi comunicate ad hoc	06:50
VOA	with the ipod touch right?	06:50
VOA	as i am not expert did i understand right :)?	06:52
nox-	dunno about adhoc but ap mode should work	06:53
VOA	i hope it does so i can also have internet on ipod touch everywhere using the n900 wifi :)	06:53
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VOA	the mac chan is full of fan boys lol	06:56
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DocScrutinizer	VOA: what do you want to do exactly? use N900 to access WLAN hotspots, and tether the N900 to iPod via USB?	07:26
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DocScrutinizer	VOA: or do you simply want to access the internets via N900 GSM, and tether to iPod via WLAN?	07:27
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DocScrutinizer	~botsnack	07:28
infobot	DocScrutinizer: :)	07:28
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VOA	no i wanted a way to have internet on my ipod touch when i am outside	07:29
VOA	using n900 wifi	07:29
VOA	so i can have it round the city on ipod touch also	07:29
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OCTOLITHIC	man... anyone else having problems with nokia PC/OVI suite?	07:34
OCTOLITHIC	I wouldn't have to use this crapware at all if I could do PR1.3 OTA...	07:36
VOA	i can't wait xmas to get n900	07:37
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VOA	in comparsion to surfing speed test vs iphone 4 who wins?	07:37
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OCTOLITHIC	whoever has the better network in your area	07:38
VOA	i think n900 and ipod touch are a great combo	07:39
DocScrutinizer	VOA: fine, you answered my A_or_B multiple choice question by repeating your ambiguous definition of your usecase	07:40
VOA	and is that bad or good and what answers did i give :)?	07:40
VOA	as i use one as internet tablet and all the linux power it has to offer and one for uber store apps	07:41
* DocScrutinizer shakes head with a sad face... "is it just me?"		07:42
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VOA	maby you are a fan boy ahha	07:43
OCTOLITHIC	DocScrutinizer: nope :P	07:43
VOA	i use everything and that what works for me as Bruce Lee sas	07:43
VOA	says	07:43
DocScrutinizer	sigh	07:43
VOA	purism now days dosen't go far integration is the future	07:43
DocScrutinizer	thanks, I'll use that for this weeks mantra - was desparately seeking for one with such a deep wisdom	07:44
VOA	np	07:45
OCTOLITHIC	Let me try something real quick.	07:45
DocScrutinizer	~xyawn	07:45
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, xyawn is nap	07:45
DocScrutinizer	even infobot thinks I shouldn't participate in this any longer	07:46
VOA	hi infobot	07:50
VOA	does he reply hah?	07:50
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lolloo	is infobot a bot?	07:56
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timeless_webchat	infobot: infobot ?	08:24
infobot	hmm... infobot is in need of training, can someone train me?	08:24
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RobbieThe1st	infobot: no	08:28
RobbieThe1st	Dang...	08:28
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VOA	lelly kelly are my little shoes o yea !	08:38
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OCTOLITHIC	Ugh... F**K OVI suite in it's little cornhole... I'm just gonna have to flash this damn thing to get PR1.3... Ugh...	08:55
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RobbieThe1st	Just back things up and reflash	08:56
OCTOLITHIC	Yeah, wouldn't be the first time... I just wish reinstalling everything from the repos didn't take so long.	08:57
RobbieThe1st	Yea, true. I figure it's unavoidable when doing a PR upgrade, other than that though... that's what OS images are for	08:58
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OCTOLITHIC	True. I suppose I should use this opportunity to become more familiar with linuix. Although I can't help but feel like I'm missing out. My generation doesn't have to configure thier own kernels or anything. My peers ignorance, MY ignorance, could fill several olympic swimming pools (and then some).	09:01
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RobbieThe1st	OCTOLITHIC: I know -some- people have upgraded using apt-get dist-upgrade, but I'm not sure on the specifics	09:07
RobbieThe1st	In my case, I used it as an opportunity to deal with the "bit-rot" accumulating after who-knows-how many image backup and restore cycles	09:08
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OCTOLITHIC	Mmm, I'm sure I could stand to simplify as well. Now that I've lived with this thing for almost a year I should have a better idea about what I will and won't end up using.	09:11
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FillinG	Yup bros, my name str8 cold chilli Tomek B I repp north Phoenix, fill me/ i'ma try 2 be's a rappa n shit, here's some hot beatz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kL9wv3kMSU <-- CHECK THIS HOT SHIT AND TELL ME WHAT U THINK, FEEL ME?	09:12
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lucent	I feel nauseated. Does that count, spammity spam spam?	09:13
Termana	lucent, show me on the doll where you felt him	09:14
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lucent	OCTOLITHIC: it's just a !@#$ computer thing, you know, I think it is not magic after using these computer things for 20+ years	09:14
lucent	ha	09:14
* lucent concedes to Termana for-the-win		09:15
RobbieThe1st	^^	09:16
* OCTOLITHIC uses MEMORY OF A GOLDFISH to forget why he was angry in the first place.		09:18
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lucent	ugh I need HANDS OF STEEL to open this lousy cap on a wine bottle	09:19
lucent	in related to maemo news, I successfully used the power user kernel with aircrack-ng and kismet for some wifi fun	09:20
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lucent	it's kind of honest-novelty to have aircrack in my pocket.	09:21
psycho_oreos	been there done that	09:21
Termana	lucent, novelty? You should be cracking some wireless networks son, get some free wifi	09:21
Termana	:P (I'm kidding actually, but anyhow)	09:21
Termana	WiFi is too inconvenient.	09:22
lucent	you know for the sake of posturing myself as a ... "law abiding citizen" or community partiticipant, not into bragging about the illicit	09:22
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lucent	it's just really pleasing to see that the wifi driver had no support, someone said "hey I fixed it, here's the patch", and all now benefit	09:23
psycho_oreos	I think the wifi chipset has had support since nokia hired a guy to work on it	09:24
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lucent	I am not clear about injection support, do you know if that facet is working?	09:24
psycho_oreos	it is working if one gets neopwn v2	09:25
lucent	oh, I will investigate	09:26
psycho_oreos	and that project has faced lots of scrutinisation that the core dev pretty much decided to drop the project I suspect	09:26
crashanddie	loads of empty promises and shattered expectations	09:27
DocScrutinizer51	yo	09:27
lucent	sad face.	09:27
crashanddie	lucent: the driver is out in the nature	09:27
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crashanddie	greetings, DocScrutinizer51	09:29
DocScrutinizer51	o/	09:29
psycho_oreos	heh shrugs I guess one has to move on, sure it was quite annoying that it seems like what was an epic thing but at the end just seems to be one small step	09:30
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khertan	Morning All !	09:30
lucent	I'm still confused by neopwn, it looks like a closed source project?	09:31
crashanddie	psycho_oreos: i don't blame the lead anymore, though	09:31
crashanddie	lucent: completely	09:31
crashanddie	psycho_oreos: he just tried. Didn't work out, got sick of wasting his time.	09:31
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lucent	difficult to believe that it would be linux based, and not be based on existing GPL code (and thus GPL'ed by nature)... or .. what	09:32
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crashanddie	lucent: he's not releasing the GPL code, even though he has to	09:32
lucent	oh! one of /those/	09:32
psycho_oreos	crashanddie, shrugs oh well at least he made a dent in the what was supposedly deliberately removed feature (or at least I suspect) so I guess if one were curious enough, in theory could remake one that would be free and open	09:33
crashanddie	psycho_oreos: sure	09:33
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crashanddie	psycho_oreos: not sure it was deliberately not included	09:33
crashanddie	err	09:33
crashanddie	sorry, early morning, I meant: I'm pretty sure it was not removed, rather never included.	09:34
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psycho_oreos	crashanddie, I dunno, not saying that injection support was never added but there was an old blog post detailing prior to PR1.2 that injection was working with power kernel supposedly.. that was later then either not incorporated or was broken and later mended (which did not become part of the released kernel version)	09:34
crashanddie	nha, that's bollocks	09:35
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lucent	what is the test to know if injection is working/	09:35
crashanddie	lucent: inject packets :D	09:36
psycho_oreos	ahh ok shrugs at least it seems like injection support can be added in separately, one pretty much just need the right sources and the tarballs to create it.. or so I believe	09:36
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* lucent looks on, dumbfounded but willing to learn		09:36
psycho_oreos	there's a switch under aircrack-ng binary itself	09:36
lucent	crashanddie: i.e. fakeauth or areplay?	09:36
crashanddie	lucent: it's just a matter of grabbing aircrack and -0	09:36
lucent	oh	09:36
crashanddie	test-ping routers	09:36
psycho_oreos	best to read aircrack-ng docs, its very well documented but there's far to many that uses the tools and never bothered to fully read the docs	09:37
khertan	finally found a work around for QTBUG-15140	09:37
crashanddie	anyway, have to go to work	09:37
psycho_oreos	err not aircrack-ng binary, aireplay-ng	09:37
crashanddie	will be on the other account in half an hour or so	09:37
crashanddie	'later	09:37
lucent	I've read the docs, more or less, mostly more	09:37
lucent	you're referring to deauth?	09:37
psycho_oreos	o.O cya	09:38
psycho_oreos	no injection test	09:38
* lucent reads manual page '-0' refers to deauth		09:38
psycho_oreos	well with deauth you'd be looking at the same binary anyway	09:38
psycho_oreos	but the same binary has switch to test inject	09:38
crashanddie	woops	09:39
lucent	oh -9 then	09:39
crashanddie	not deauth then	09:39
crashanddie	-0	09:39
crashanddie	-9	09:39
crashanddie	crap	09:39
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lucent	it's okay I'm merely curious about whether I had injection actually going or not	09:40
psycho_oreos	there's plenty of switches in aireplay-ng :)	09:40
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crashanddie	lucent: you don't	09:40
crashanddie	anyway	09:40
crashanddie	later	09:40
lucent	cracked my 40-bit wep key and some things appeared like aireplay was actually sending out packets, but I don't know if that meant injection worked	09:40
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psycho_oreos	well with injection test you can see that if its actually working, it will say so and if you wanted to doublecheck you can have another boxen running airodump-ng/kismet.. and see all the fake clients trying to auth./assoc. with the targeted AP	09:41
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psycho_oreos	just do injection test	09:41
* lucent =)		09:43
lucent	thank you psycho_oreos	09:44
psycho_oreos	nw	09:44
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* RobbieThe1st headdesks - Note to self: Always check that the application you are trying to call -exists- before doing extensive debug work on why it's not working.		09:46
RobbieThe1st	Doubly so for semi-builtins like "expr"	09:47
DocScrutinizer51	semi?	09:47
RobbieThe1st	It's part of busybox, but requires a symlink or call through busybox	09:48
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DocScrutinizer51	hmm, that's how messybox does this	09:49
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RobbieThe1st	Yea. And forgetting that you don't have a symlink to it can be -very- problematic. Variables turning up empty, things just blank...	09:49
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raster	DocScrutinizer51: doc! \o/	09:51
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timeless_webchat	http://cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?image=23&topicid=340 :)	09:53
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DocScrutinizer	hi raster	09:54
DocScrutinizer	RobbieThe1st: set -e	09:54
RobbieThe1st	?	09:55
psycho_oreos	how important are the /sys files under n900?	09:55
DocScrutinizer	-e Exit immediately if a command exits with a non-zero status.	09:55
psycho_oreos	I suppose very? :)	09:55
RobbieThe1st	That would be -very- problematic in my case, considering that would mean dropping out of any user-interface without unmounting any and all drives, and ending up hanging...	09:57
DocScrutinizer	RobbieThe1st: -u Treat unset variables as an error when substituting. (also strongly recommended :-D )	09:57
DocScrutinizer	RobbieThe1st: nope	09:57
raster	psycho_oreos: why?	09:57
raster	they are too big and u want to delete them?	09:58
raster	:)	09:58
RobbieThe1st	Well, that would work fine... IF the frigging n900 had a proper framebuffer kernel by default! Instead, I have to work with text2screen for my output	09:58
RobbieThe1st	Remember: I'm not running inside Maemo. I'm running inside what is essentially a pre-boot environment.	09:58
DocScrutinizer	don't see the problem anyway	09:59
psycho_oreos	raster, I did a dar backup of maemo rootfs, was tinkering around last night and sort of screwed up (it'll boot but with blank screen when X.org is loaded.. So I reflashed it and restored the complete dar file which caused the device to completely malfunction and do several boot loops.. now I'm in the process of sifting through the critical files that shouldn't be overwritten with the files that should be overwritten or otherwise copied to save myself time	09:59
psycho_oreos	reinstalling everything from scratch	09:59
DocScrutinizer	a properly written program is supposed to catch and check all return codes anyway (except malloc)	10:00
kerio	why not malloc	10:00
DocScrutinizer	err, iirc raster convinced me it doesn't make sense as you can't react if you're out of mem	10:00
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kerio	yes you can	10:01
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DocScrutinizer	so only thing you can do is exit program, and that's what a malloc failing should do	10:01
kerio	printf("OMGWTFBBQ\n"); exit(1);	10:01
RobbieThe1st	I'm running a large shell-script, written in busybox's ash. As I have no access to stdout/stderr by default(no framebuffer), I can only get return errors and values if I specifically grab that output(e.g. to a file)	10:01
DocScrutinizer	kerio: no mem	10:01
DocScrutinizer	printf will fail	10:01
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kerio	huh? even if it's compiled in?	10:02
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psycho_oreos	raster, any ideas/comments? :)	10:02
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timeless_webchat	sp3000: you awake?	10:03
timeless_webchat	my network / dns died, and i can't seem to resolve *.work	10:04
kerio	nokia has a whole TLD?	10:04
kerio	nice	10:04
timeless_webchat	nah	10:05
timeless_webchat	but it does have a policy against disclosing network architecture	10:05
raster	ppsy sorry .. real life distracting me.	10:06
raster	psycho_oreos: sorry .. real life distracting me.	10:06
raster	ummm /sys is a virtual fs	10:06
Termana	timeless_webchat, does it have a policy about disclosing what isn't in the network architecture? :p	10:06
raster	its not real files	10:06
raster	u never have to back iot up	10:06
raster	or copy things in and out	10:06
RobbieThe1st	Yea	10:06
raster	its generated on the fly by the kernel	10:06
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kerio	so... nokia's internal network does not have a TLD	10:06
raster	it is just an api (so tospeak) to get information in and out of the kernel	10:06
raster	like /proc	10:06
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raster	so dont ever bother backing up or restoring /sys	10:07
raster	as writing to files in /sys could do.. bad things	10:07
RobbieThe1st	same with /proc and /dev generally	10:07
raster	(depending on what they are)	10:07
psycho_oreos	raster, fair enough, I did get lots of errors when trying to do a dar on it, similar with /proc.. So I suppose in theory its best to delete those from de-archived dar file and to exclude them along with /dev /.dev	10:08
raster	DocScrutinizer: well u cant react to general "small malloc" failures	10:08
raster	eg malloc of a struct, linked lists etc.	10:08
raster	u basicall ylose all ability to do any kind of dynamic allocation when u run out of ram for accounting reasons	10:08
raster	u cant maintain lists anymore etc.	10:08
raster	BUt	10:08
raster	u can recover from malloc failures	10:08
raster	eg if u are trying to malloc 1gb of ram	10:09
DocScrutinizer	sure you can try to catch a mmap	10:09
raster	for lets say... a satellite image of the world u are decoding	10:09
raster	then thats easy to trap and recover from	10:09
DocScrutinizer	yesyes	10:09
raster	as u simlpy fail the loader of that 1 massive 1gb image pixel blob	10:09
raster	thats sane to recover from	10:09
kerio	i want a TLD	10:09
DocScrutinizer	it's sane to try - you'll never know	10:10
raster	u cant sanely recover from the general case of malloced structs, strings, lists, hashes etc. that are part of the reality of writing a modern app	10:10
raster	(of reasonable complexity)	10:10
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RobbieThe1st	Raster, would you mind please typing "you" instead of just "u"?	10:11
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raster	RobbieThe1st: why?	10:11
kerio	you should've used "y?" there	10:11
* raster wonders if he should come up with an excuse for not having done the homework for RobbieThe1st		10:12
DocScrutinizer	raster: the original aspect was you shall check all return codes, and not just ignore everything running hovok. Just for malloc this rule isn't that strict	10:12
RobbieThe1st	For one, because it's not English	10:12
kerio	DocScrutinizer: so i shouldn't use On Error Resume Next? :(	10:12
khertan	lol	10:12
khertan	oups wrong windows	10:12
DocScrutinizer	kerio: ehh??	10:13
raster	DocScrutinizer: oh of course... but... in apps and libs that are already 100,000 lines of code long	10:13
raster	or bigger	10:13
kerio	DocScrutinizer: ;)	10:13
raster	and possible every 3rd or 4th line contains a func that could fail	10:13
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kerio	raster: you check for every one of them	10:13
kerio	srsly	10:13
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raster	and to handle that u have to add another 4, 5 or more liens of code to "unroll and handle the failure"	10:13
raster	a 100,000 line app becomes 500,000	10:13
raster	its unmaintainable	10:14
RobbieThe1st	Yes, which is called "good practice"	10:14
raster	good luck with that	10:14
raster	:)	10:14
DocScrutinizer	raster: for such things you got traps, catches or whatever your flavour is called	10:14
raster	RobbieThe1st: is there a rewuirement that i speak correct queens engllish here and type it perfectly?	10:14
raster	ooh .. i'm surprised u havent complained about mmy lack of using capitals	10:15
raster	DocScrutinizer: good luck in handling all such errors that way	10:15
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DocScrutinizer	raster: meh!	10:15
DocScrutinizer	read backscroll	10:15
raster	u are half way thru 50 lines of code	10:15
raster	that init some struct u malloced	10:15
raster	and mallco more things	10:15
raster	and create more objects	10:15
raster	then suddenly u append something to a list	10:16
raster	and list node alloc fails	10:16
raster	u cant append	10:16
raster	u can have a trap	10:16
raster	and then what?	10:16
raster	u have to reverse back freeing everything u partly allocated/set up	10:16
raster	to the parent func	10:16
raster	and that parent func has to do the same	10:16
raster	and so on	10:16
RobbieThe1st	There are a number of things I am bothered by. But using "u" instead of "you" is something that disgusts me. I would be very happy if you took the time to use capitals and actually write out full sentences, but I'll take what I can get.	10:16
DocScrutinizer	then the trap handler will aslo throw error. So what?	10:16
raster	in the end how do u copy? u need to inform the user "i'm out of memory"	10:16
raster	but i cant alloc memory for the dialog to tell them that	10:17
raster	fun!	10:17
raster	:)	10:17
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raster	running out of "general case malloced ram" is as good a case for segv or exit as any	10:17
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DocScrutinizer	raster: what are you high on? didn't we agree on there's no use in catching malloc fails?	10:17
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raster	only the special cases of "i have to alloc a big chunk" like i said before are sanely doable.	10:17
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raster	DocScrutinizer: not for your benefit :)	10:18
DocScrutinizer	yayaYA	10:18
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RobbieThe1st	If you are running out of memory, you don't have enough swap.	10:18
kerio	RobbieThe1st: y u mad?	10:18
raster	RobbieThe1st: after enough years writing 10,000's of emails and god knows how much on irc.. i couldnt be bothered.	10:18
raster	:)	10:19
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RobbieThe1st	And it makes you look like a dumb teenager, to be honest.	10:19
raster	i dont much care	10:19
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raster	i have no interest in trying to look like anything	10:19
RobbieThe1st	You expect people to take you seriously, though.	10:19
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raster	i have spent enough of my life living in places that dont speak english as language	10:20
raster	and having to make do with whatever form of communication works	10:20
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raster	RobbieThe1st: i dont rely on my typing to do that.	10:20
rmrfchik	raster: how do they use english if not language?	10:20
raster	if it was ""My perfect Queens English that You request I use" which i am capable of doing, then it's nothing but a facade.	10:20
psycho_oreos	those short words have been spread out to other groups apart from just dumb teenagers :/ even me mum SMS me with short words	10:20
kerio	*Queen's	10:21
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: you have to catch all malloc fails	10:21
crashanddie_	yeah, but that's because she wants to look like a teenager, psycho_oreos	10:21
raster	the process of captializing and not using shortcuts for "you" like u have nothing to do with having knowledge in a field unrelated to english	10:21
toresbe	raster: It's "Queen's".	10:21
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toresbe	raster: And "You" isn't capitalized.	10:21
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: if you live on system with disabled overcommit you are very likely to hit one	10:21
RobbieThe1st	It's one thing to be doing the best you can and not getting thing perfect; it's another entirely to deliberately make "mistakes".	10:21
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: for what? how?	10:21
raster	rmrfchik: i meant "as a language	10:21
raster	typo	10:21
toresbe	RobbieThe1st: or not bothering to write properly, u no wut i mean?	10:21
RobbieThe1st	Exactly.	10:22
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jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory	10:22
crashanddie_	though, I think he got the point, and will now make an effort, so we might as well move on	10:22
raster	RobbieThe1st: i'm not deliberately making mistakes. i'm just saving time and keystrokes	10:22
crashanddie_	raster, just make the damned effort.	10:22
RobbieThe1st	I did that myself, back when I was around thirteen. I learned better, and found that people respected me more for it.	10:22
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: and if you disable that linux will not allocate more memory than is avaliable and malloc will start to fail	10:22
raster	crashanddie_: nah. i'll pas thanks.	10:22
raster	err pass	10:22
psycho_oreos	crashanddie_, I'd hate to think of it that way lol.. I hardly ever use short words myself	10:22
rmrfchik	the number of keystrokes in the universe is infinite.	10:23
jacekowski	MohammadAG51: we have to talk	10:23
raster	rmrfchik: the number of hours in a day i have is not.	10:23
jacekowski	rmrfchik: do you have any proof?	10:23
* DocScrutinizer goes MEH and shrug and points to scrollback, general nonsense and tmo syndrome, and waves for a goodbye		10:23
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crashanddie_	raster, if you won't make an effort to respect the people you're communicating with, I think you might be outstaying your welcome in #maemo.	10:24
rmrfchik	jacekowski: it is by intuition. it is proven (by lispers) that there is unlimited number of parenthesis	10:24
raster	crashanddie_: how has that got to do with respecting anyone?	10:24
crashanddie_	as obviously, it's annoying more than one person	10:24
RobbieThe1st	It's one thing to type with short words and missing capitalization on a 10-key phone. It's another to do it when you have a full QWERTY keyboard at your disposal. Even typing properly using the n900's keyboard isn't that hard.	10:24
timeless_webchat	kerio: to borrow something from someone, i don't know what i don't know, so i can't say for sure that it doesn't	10:24
raster	crashanddie_: fyi english isnt my native language	10:24
crashanddie_	raster, neither is it mine	10:24
crashanddie_	yet, I make the effort	10:24
raster	that doesnt mean that i must	10:25
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timeless_webchat	and since i'm not allowed to disclose topology, you should not assume that i'm answering based on not knowing, i may merely be honoring the policy :)	10:25
raster	where is the set of rules that specify i speak correct english to partake in this channel?	10:25
kerio	timeless_webchat: since you guys aren't using .work, can i take it?	10:25
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crashanddie_	raster, feel free to PM me when you're done trolling.	10:26
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DocScrutinizer51	crashanddie_: feel free to tell us when you're done with uberruling	10:26
timeless_webchat	DocScrutinizer: the rule is that strict. failure to do that can result in amusing security holes when your kernel is stupid :)	10:26
crashanddie_	DocScrutinizer, will do	10:26
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jacekowski	raster: you're not speaking correct english when everybody has to try hard to understand what you are writing	10:27
kerio	ooh, burn	10:27
timeless_webchat	raster: use a language which has exception handling...	10:27
kerio	timeless_webchat: english?	10:27
RobbieThe1st	:P	10:27
timeless_webchat	oh, he left?	10:27
kerio	yup	10:27
kerio	with a snarky quit message too	10:27
Termana	At least someone told him. That was getting annoying yesterday as well	10:27
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* timeless_webchat notes that one should pre-cache the OOM dialog + text		10:28
crashanddie_	DocScrutinizer, done.	10:28
DocScrutinizer51	screwit	10:28
crashanddie_	kerio, PM me the message	10:28
kerio	timeless_webchat: that doesn't guarantee you'll be able to display it	10:28
timeless_webchat	RobbieThe1st: i ran out of memory a couple of times yesterday	10:28
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RobbieThe1st	n900?	10:28
timeless_webchat	app hit a 3gb limit. system has 9gb of swap	10:28
RobbieThe1st	Ouch	10:28
RobbieThe1st	hm...	10:28
RobbieThe1st	Yea, I guess that -would- be a problem	10:28
crashanddie_	lol, 9gb of swap	10:28
Termana	timeless_webchat, how much actually memory do you have in that system?	10:29
RobbieThe1st	Hey, I've got 12GB of swap... But only because I needed 4 for hibernation and wanted to make my 3 raid-5 drives have identical partition tables.	10:29
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kerio	RobbieThe1st: you could've given it 2gb	10:30
kerio	well, 2gb for each drive	10:30
kerio	or 1.(3)gb	10:30
RobbieThe1st	I wasn't sure if it it would hibernate across multiple partitions - I take it it will?	10:30
crashanddie_	yup	10:30
timeless_webchat	crashanddie_: i'm borrowing the computer	10:30
crashanddie_	timeless_webchat, not criticising, just finding it funny :)	10:31
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timeless_webchat	frade: ping	10:31
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timeless_webchat	or mairas: ping	10:32
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mairas	timeless, pong	10:33
timeless_webchat	mairas: i'm having dns issues, does nslookup "ok" work?	10:33
* timeless_webchat can't resolve anything		10:34
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mairas	timeless_webchat, oh, that was it... my network connectivity was pretty hosed as well. I just rebooted the computer and got it resolved	10:34
mairas	I'm not sure whether I was given new servers	10:35
timeless_webchat	hrm	10:35
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lardman\|home	morning all	10:36
lardman\|home	X-Fade: ping	10:36
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X-Fade	lardman\|home: pong	10:39
RobbieThe1st	Ping	10:40
lardman\|home	hey Neils	10:40
lardman\|home	I'm getting an error trying to register a project on Garage	10:40
lardman\|home	ERROR: Could not create group: ERROR: value too long for type character varying(255)	10:40
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X-Fade	lardman\|home: Don't write so much :)	10:40
lardman\|home	lol	10:40
lardman\|home	which field?	10:40
lardman\|home	ah, doh!	10:40
X-Fade	lardman\|home: Well some field with more than 255 chars ;)	10:41
X-Fade	lardman\|home: And it is not the description.	10:41
lardman\|home	I see now, is it not possible to limit the web input field to 255 chars?	10:41
X-Fade	lardman\|home: I'm sure it is. But this garage thing is a bit of an ugly beast :)	10:41
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lardman\|home	sure, sorry to disturb, should have read the description first	10:42
lardman\|home	:)	10:42
X-Fade	lardman\|home: No problem :)	10:43
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lardman\|home	X-Fade: can I also remove some Garage projects?	10:45
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lardman\|home	I couldn't see a way in the web interface	10:45
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X-Fade	lardman\|home: no, I don't think so. I can though.	10:47
lardman\|home	ok not important, I'll make a list and email you	10:47
lardman\|home	just thought I should clear out some stuff I never got round to doing much/anything on	10:48
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phellarv	Anyone remembers hot to turn off the automatic update-check?	10:54
timeless_webchat	phellarv: why does it bother you?	10:55
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iDont	phellarv: http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Disabling_Auto_Updates_Check	10:55
phellarv	iDont: Thanks	10:56
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iDont	np	10:56
phellarv	timeless_webchat: Because I don't use appman - I do it the shell way, and do not want blinking things in my GUI	10:56
* DocScrutinizer points out there's an /ignore command which EVERYBODY is free to use (except OPs, regrettably) - so WTF is going on in this chan?		10:57
phellarv	DocScrutinizer51: Bad morning?	10:57
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DocScrutinizer	might get one - not sure if for me or for somebody else	10:59
* phellarv yanks out the popcorn and finds a comfortable spot to watch from.		10:59
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timeless_webchat	X-Fade: would you ever describe a program which ended with SIGSEGV or SIGILL as having "aborted"?	11:02
toggles	anyone with n900 using bt audio in the car? what's the best way to connect? seems a pain to menu->bt->device->edit->connect	11:02
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johnx	toggles, mine auto-connects to bt headphones	11:03
X-Fade	timeless_webchat: Yes.	11:03
jacekowski	it should autoconnect	11:03
lardman\|home	toggles: should auto connect if paired shouldn't it?	11:03
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timeless_webchat	X-Fade: interesting, can you explain?	11:04
X-Fade	timeless_webchat: All depends on who you are talking to. For non tech people, I think aborted is fine.	11:05
Termana	timeless_webchat, I would call it "taken a choice"	11:05
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jacekowski	timeless_webchat: on windows i think they use "executed illegal operation and had to be stopped"	11:06
timeless_webchat	X-Fade: interesting	11:06
timeless_webchat	can you point to a normal application which does this?	11:06
toggles	johnx lardman\|home: i'd have thought but it's not working right, might be the car	11:06
toggles	thanks	11:06
Termana	jacekowski, if people didn't view illegal things in their programs it would do this! :p (I'm kidding, obviously)	11:07
johnx	toggles, you might be able to do it with dbus-send, then make a launcher for that	11:07
toggles	thanks	11:07
timeless_webchat	jacekowski: yeah...	11:08
timeless_webchat	sadly i'm limited to roughly 12 characters	11:08
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jacekowski	epicly failed	11:09
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Termana	timeless_webchat, what about, terminated?	11:09
lardman\|home	urgh, this python scripting is confusing	11:09
lardman\|home	that is calling python from within C++	11:10
Termana	timeless_webchat, even better, Termanated	11:10
timeless_webchat	Termana: my initial suggestion was Unexpectedly terminated	11:10
timeless_webchat	that's too long	11:10
timeless_webchat	as an impl detail, there's a TERMINATED terminal state which is totally unrelated	11:10
jacekowski	lardman\|home: any interaction between dynamicaly typed and strictly typed languages is evil	11:11
lardman\|home	jacekowski: but useful nevertheless	11:12
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jacekowski	lardman\|home: wher	11:12
lardman\|home	casting a pyobject pointer to a C++ class is what I'm umming and arring about atm	11:12
jacekowski	where*	11:12
lardman\|home	mbarcode	11:12
lardman\|home	but am using the code in web2sms as a basis	11:13
jacekowski	well, problem is what if your structure decides to change	11:13
jacekowski	or python interpreter decides to do some weird optimisations	11:13
jacekowski	and structure doesn't match anymore	11:13
lardman\|home	well the Python-side class definition should be fixed, no idea about the optimisation bit, but hopefully the class itself will remain ok	11:13
DocScrutinizer51	timeless_webchat: fatality, died	11:13
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Termana	timeless_webchat, halted? Otherwise I would probably go with aborted	11:14
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johnx	"ended early"	11:14
johnx	"called on account of rain"	11:14
DocScrutinizer51	crashed	11:14
lardman\|home	SIGILL stopped play	11:15
johnx	Died horribly	11:15
timeless_webchat	DocScrutinizer51: i tried crashed first	11:15
timeless_webchat	there were objections	11:15
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Derdavid	hello! someone there, who knows something about dropn900 connection problems?	11:15
DocScrutinizer51	there'l always be	11:15
timeless_webchat	e.g. the case includes SIGKILL	11:16
Derdavid	xD	11:16
DocScrutinizer51	umm	11:16
DocScrutinizer51	did the car crash, when you shoot the driver?	11:16
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DocScrutinizer51	I'd argue it's a 'forced crah'	11:17
DocScrutinizer51	crash*	11:17
johnx	can we do one of those super classy cut-off error messages?	11:18
johnx	PROGRAM TERMIN	11:18
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DocScrutinizer	Ώ	11:22
DocScrutinizer	X-[	11:22
Derdavid	hello xD	11:22
lardman\|home	cu later chaps	11:24
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DocScrutinizer	Ⱦ	11:25
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psycho_oreos	ߐ	11:27
Derdavid	hi folks	11:28
Derdavid	i need some help xD	11:28
johnx	Derdavid, what's up?	11:29
DocScrutinizer	http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Skull_and_crossbones.svg&filetimestamp=20100708170328 or †	11:29
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Venemo_N900	hey bradas	11:34
johnx	~seen bradas	11:34
johnx	no bradas here :)	11:35
infobot	i haven't seen 'bradas', johnx	11:35
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Venemo_N900	johnx: ehh	11:35
johnx	:D	11:35
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Venemo_N900	johnx: you are not funny, you know?	11:35
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johnx	I kinda figured. but I'm ok with that	11:36
Venemo_N900	johnx: ok then	11:36
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DocScrutinizer	timeless_webchat: http://www.isthisthingon.org/unicode/clipboard.php?add=10013	11:37
Venemo_N900	what do you guys think, how does this news affect Maemo/MeeGo? http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/nokia-developer-news/2010/11/08/rapid-innovation-for-symbian-platform?utm_medium=email&utm_source=peer360&utm_campaign=FN%5FINFO%5FBLAST%5F11082010?utm_content=FN%5FINFO%5FBLAST%5F11082010	11:38
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range	q/act	11:38
range	Sorry.	11:38
timeless_webchat	Venemo_N900: the relevant paragraphs are the last two:	11:39
timeless_webchat	For most of 2010 Nokia has been encouraging developers to use Qt. To show how seriously we take that decision we not only stopped all Nokia development in other frameworks, we committed to redeveloping key Nokia applications and services that weren’t already in Qt.	11:39
johnx	Venemo_N900, probably very little. I guess it's nice they've standardized on Qt	11:39
timeless_webchat	Nokia has been working hard on developing in Qt, as evidenced by the introduction of Qt Quick, which makes rich, visual applications and services even easier to develop. We are confident that by focusing on Qt and Qt Quick as our sole application development strategy, we will increase the opportunity for developers, constantly improve the experience for users and extend the joy that people get from a single device.	11:39
timeless_webchat	Venemo_N900: the rest of it is irrelevant to maemo/meego	11:39
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: that is good to hear	11:39
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: so regardless of their commitment to Symbian, they're continuing to develop MeeGo too, right?	11:40
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flexxxv	hy, my headset for n900 isn't dedected my maemo. but healthcheck dedect it. what could be wrong?	11:43
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timeless_webchat	Venemo_N900: you do realize that having to "reaffirm" your commitment means that people think you're dropping something, right?	11:43
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timeless_webchat	basically symbian has reached yet another stage/step on the process toward being fully dead	11:44
Jaffa	Morning, all	11:44
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: pong	11:44
timeless_webchat	sadly, it's a long road... too long	11:44
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: ah...	11:44
jacekowski	timeless_webchat: there is nothing wrong with symbian	11:44
timeless_webchat	jacekowski: sure there is,	11:44
timeless_webchat	it's called Management	11:44
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timeless_webchat	:)	11:44
jacekowski	bs	11:45
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timeless_webchat	nothing to do w/ the system stack :)	11:45
jacekowski	well maemo managment is worse	11:45
timeless_webchat	and symbian doesn't have a monopoly on that feature. sadly	11:45
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Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: so basically this confirms that Symbian'll be dead?	11:45
timeless_webchat	Venemo_N900: nah	11:45
timeless_webchat	it'll die eventually	11:45
timeless_webchat	sadly it still has years of life left	11:45
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Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: well MeeGo is not ready yet to replace it	11:46
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timeless_webchat	it probably can't die for at least another 8 :(	11:46
timeless_webchat	well, s/die/be properly burried/	11:46
timeless_webchat	s/burried/buried/	11:46
infobot	timeless_webchat meant: well, s/die/be properly buried/	11:46
timeless_webchat	Venemo_N900: really?	11:46
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timeless_webchat	a stack which hasn't shipped a single product isn't ready to replace something which has shipped millions of units?	11:47
* timeless_webchat is shocked		11:47
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Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: from what I've seen / heard about it, it will need some more time to get close even to the current Maemo 5 Ux	11:48
timeless_webchat	Venemo_N900: seems like a reasonable conclusion	11:48
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Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: :)	11:49
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DocScrutinizer	☠	11:50
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DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: ping timeout	11:50
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DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: I think it was about NB#161191	11:51
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PontusOhman	Could anyone please explain why I get this: Error opening file '/media/Nokia N900/.documents/Comics/Name of the comic.cbr': Input/output error	11:55
crashanddie_	PontusOhman, doing what, exactly?	11:56
crashanddie_	making cakes?	11:56
PontusOhman	crashanddie_: Was going to move over some comics to my N900, but when I paste them on the device I get that error	11:56
johnx	so this is an error displayed on your linux desktop?	11:56
johnx	run 'dmesg' in a terminal and put the output on pastie.org	11:57
crashanddie_	PontusOhman, I'm guessing /media/Nokia N900 is mounted to /home/user/MyDocs/?	11:57
PontusOhman	johnx: > No error on the dmesg	11:58
johnx	so your file manager in linux says io error, but dmesg doesn't>	11:59
johnx	?	11:59
Corsac	grmbl, do we really have to run make check in po?	11:59
Corsac	I hate when there are issues with applied patches and .pc folders ><	11:59
PontusOhman	johnx: > I tried to copy a .cbr file from a folder on my desktop on my Ubuntubox, but when I wanted to paste it on the device I get that error.	12:00
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johnx	PontusOhman, yes. so what you're saying is that nautilus gave you an io error, but dmesg doesn't have anything suspicious. I suspect some problem in nautilus	12:01
PontusOhman	crashanddie_: > The device is set to "mass storage mode"	12:01
PontusOhman	johnx: > I know the files is working, because I use comix to read them ^^	12:02
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crashanddie_	do you have enough free space?	12:02
PontusOhman	crashanddie_: > uhhhm... Over 20 Gb is free on the device so yeah ;)	12:02
johnx	PontusOhman, ok. so is there anything in dmesg on the N900?	12:02
PontusOhman	johnx: Nope, no errors	12:02
RobbieThe1st	Can you create a folder on your n900?	12:04
RobbieThe1st	.i.e. is it mounted readonly?	12:04
PontusOhman	RobbieThe1st: > I can create and paste other files on the device, but no .cbr files	12:05
johnx	PontusOhman, I blame nautilus. try cp	12:05
johnx	prove me wrong :)	12:05
RobbieThe1st	Yea	12:05
timeless_webchat	what's a .cbr?	12:05
RobbieThe1st	a .rar file renamed	12:06
kerio	jacekowski: you mean that c++ is dynamically typed and python is statically typed right?	12:06
RobbieThe1st	and generally filled with comic images	12:06
PontusOhman	johnx: Will try that :)	12:06
PontusOhman	hang on	12:06
jacekowski	kerio: yes	12:06
Venemo_N900	kerio: isn't it quite the opposite?	12:08
kerio	Venemo_N900: huh? no	12:08
Venemo_N900	kerio: c++ was statically typed last time I checked	12:09
kerio	any conversion (except between some numeric types) must be explicited	12:09
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kerio	and objects belong strictly to one type and one type only	12:09
PontusOhman	johnx: > Can't even do a cp of the file :O	12:11
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johnx	PontusOhman, eh?	12:11
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PontusOhman	johnx: cp: cannot create regular file	12:12
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johnx	and it's only for that cbr file?	12:12
PontusOhman	It's for all cbr files	12:12
johnx	try copying a different file of similar size into the same place	12:13
johnx	also, try copying your cbr file onto a different place on your computer	12:13
PontusOhman	johnx: > Tried a .jpg file in to that folder with no luck :S	12:14
PontusOhman	Problem solved :D	12:14
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johnx	well, gotta find out why, but at least some of the mystery is gone	12:14
johnx	just start picking away at variables until you only have one :)	12:14
Termana	kerio, exactly. It is statically typed.	12:14
crashanddie_	PontusOhman, what are the perms on that directory?	12:14
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* timeless_webchat ponders		12:15
timeless_webchat	(Pass 4) identifier 930700 [kernel] of 187 / 673 files...	12:16
PontusOhman	crashanddie_: > Removed that folder and maked a new folder in the root :)	12:16
PontusOhman	thx for the helt anyway :)	12:16
crashanddie_	"in the root"?	12:16
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timeless_webchat	sibling of .documents/ ?	12:17
johnx	PontusOhman, sure. I would run fsck on that fs and backup any files, just in case	12:17
Venemo_N900	kerio: C++ (pronounced /siː plʌs plʌs/ see plus plus) is a statically typed, free-form, multi-paradigm, compiled, general-purpose programming language.	12:17
kerio	Termana: i was talking about python :<	12:17
timeless_webchat	fwiw, we're talking about fixing the ".<stupid>" naming convention	12:17
Venemo_N900	kerio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B	12:17
kerio	also buzzwords	12:17
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TermanaDesire	kerio: read what you said you were talking about c++	12:18
crashanddie_	timeless, that'd be nice	12:18
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crashanddie_	[11:06:10] <kerio> jacekowski: you mean that c++ is dynamically typed	12:18
TermanaDesire	That it both me and Venemo_N900 must be blind	12:18
timeless_webchat	it'll be fun to see what breaks	12:18
TermanaDesire	Or*	12:18
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Venemo_N900	kerio: also, Python is dynamically typed	12:18
Venemo_N900	kerio: read Wikipedia	12:18
TermanaDesire	Venemo_N900: Wikipedia. Ha! ;p	12:19
* crashanddie_ goes to change Wikipedia to say that Python is statically typed language		12:19
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Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: lol	12:19
TermanaDesire	crashanddie_: you are evil sir ;p	12:19
Venemo_N900	kerio: for the definition of what it means, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamically_typed#Dynamic_typing	12:20
Venemo_N900	kerio: all interpreted languages are dynamically typed	12:21
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lcuk	Venemo_N900, BASIC historically used static types and that is interpreted :P	12:22
Venemo_N900	kerio: A programming language is said to be dynamically typed when the majority of its type checking is performed at run-time as opposed to at compile-time.	12:22
timeless_webchat	hrm, isn't there an interpreted C that's statically typed?	12:22
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timeless_webchat	lcuk++	12:22
kerio	interpretd C?	12:22
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kerio	for the complications of compiled languages and the speed of interpreted languages?	12:22
timeless_webchat	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/376611/why-interpreted-langs-are-mostly-ducktyped-while-compiled-have-strong-typing	12:23
Venemo_N900	since in interpreted languages type-checking occours at the runtime, they can not be statically typed	12:23
lcuk	the variant datatype is my understanding of dynamic typing - a box you dont know what it contains	12:23
kerio	lcuk: C has void*	12:23
timeless_webchat	Venemo_N900: read the link above	12:23
timeless_webchat	http://www.softintegration.com/products/chstandard/download/	12:24
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: sorry, I did not talk about compiled vs interpreted	12:24
timeless_webchat	Ch is a C interpreter :)	12:24
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: I of course agree with the SO answer	12:24
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crashanddie_	lcuk, rather bubblewrap, it can contain anything, and when required you can look at it to see what shape it has	12:26
kerio	crashanddie_: and it's also more resistant to mishandling	12:27
crashanddie_	it's also less resistant to sloppy coding	12:27
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kerio	pop pop pop	12:27
crashanddie_	if you can turn an int into a string without casting, sure, it's handy, but it's hell to discover your problems the day you have them	12:27
kerio	oh, that's just awful of course	12:28
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lcuk	crashanddie_, nice analogy :) unwrapping the coating takes time as well	12:28
crashanddie_	indeed :)	12:28
crashanddie_	and the kids love it	12:28
kerio	("3" + 4 will result in a TypeError in python)	12:28
* timeless_webchat boggles		12:30
timeless_webchat	it seems i hadn't received italian spam before	12:30
crashanddie_	kerio, in PHP: <?php echo "lol: " . 5; ?>	12:30
Venemo_N900	kerio: yeah, but it occours at the runtime, not at comple time	12:30
kerio	well, there's no compile time :)	12:30
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Venemo_N900	kerio: which means that type checking occours at runtime	12:30
kerio	(technically the code is compiled, but not in that way)	12:30
Venemo_N900	kerio: thus, it is dynamically typed by definition	12:30
kerio	:<	12:31
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crashanddie_	kerio, I'm going to have to ask to hand in your IRC argumentalist card	12:32
RobbieThe1st	:P	12:33
crashanddie_	kerio, you've just been beaten on a technologically complex field that transcends difficult-to-type words by someone on his N900.	12:33
johnx	(or looking at it another way, he caused someone on his N900 to waste time typing long words)	12:34
* johnx sleeps		12:34
* kerio swaps his IRC argumentalist card with his IRC troll card		12:34
RobbieThe1st	Too true	12:34
kerio	really though, python doesn't do dynamic typing like other languages	12:35
RobbieThe1st	That's for sure	12:35
RobbieThe1st	PHP's awesome that way. Python... Not so much	12:35
kerio	what	12:35
crashanddie_	RobbieThe1st, you just lost all the cards you ever earned by saying the above.	12:36
* achipa segfaults		12:36
FireFly\|n900	No love for JS?	12:36
RobbieThe1st	What's wrong with PHP?	12:36
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kerio	FireFly\|n900: if JS pulled his shit togheter and stabilized on a common DOM standard it would be MUCH better	12:36
kerio	the prototyping system is cute	12:36
Venemo_N900	kerio: seems that you don't understand what it means	12:37
kerio	but if your UI will be inside a browser and you have no standard way to access it...	12:37
RobbieThe1st	I've used it for all manner of thing's it was never intended for... like an IRC bot, all sorts of command-line scripts.... Then I switched to linux and used the shell instead.	12:37
FireFly\|n900	Isn't DOM standardised? Not implying all vendors follows the standards, but.. yeah	12:37
Venemo_N900	kerio: None of these terms are connected in any way with the number of implicit conversions available in a language.	12:37
FireFly\|n900	Also, to be honest I prefer the way prototypes work in Lua.. much cleaner	12:37
crashanddie_	RobbieThe1st, PHP is a shit language, built from duct tape residues and coke (as in soda)-fueled evenings by teenage boys in their underwear	12:38
Venemo_N900	FireFly\|n900: I don't like JS, but with some jQuery, it becomes less of a pain	12:38
crashanddie_	RobbieThe1st, it has no logic, no complete architecture, no decent object model	12:38
kerio	crashanddie_: well at least it's turing-complete	12:39
Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: PHP is good for what it was designed to do	12:39
FireFly\|n900	Venemo_N900, I like JS, and I prefer it vanilla :3	12:39
crashanddie_	RobbieThe1st, str_/preg_ functions: sometimes the needle is the first argument, sometimes it's the second. The OO modeling is a mess, with no possibility to do proper polymorphism and complex inheritance.	12:39
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Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: I would never use PHP for anything, but that is because of my personal preference	12:40
crashanddie_	Any language where the standard functions are so implicitly abhorred by every coder who comes along, and the first thing they tell themselves "I need to write myself a decent framework to use this language" is flawed to begin with.	12:40
Venemo_N900	FireFly\|n900: well jQuery does a lot of things... saves me lots of typing	12:40
Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: hehe	12:41
timeless_webchat	crashanddie_: C?	12:41
crashanddie_	Case in point, how many PHP frameworks are there? CakePHP, CarbonPHP (which I developed), CodeIgniter, Zend, Yii, Symfony, PHPDeVShell, Prado, Akelos, QPHP, ZooP	12:41
RobbieThe1st	I quite like it though - It's easy to write scripts, is entirely lax about whitespace, and relatively simple to work with. Javascript I also like... But not nearly as much, due to no proper documentation, and poor error debugging	12:41
FireFly\|n900	Venemo_N900, GUI designers have this awesome concept to reduce the typing even more...	12:42
FireFly\|n900	I'm sure jQuery is great for some things	12:42
crashanddie_	PHP HAS GOOD ERROR DEBUGGING? LOLWUT?	12:42
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Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: well I know about lots of guys who earn a fortune with PHP	12:42
FireFly\|n900	And it's neat that it wraps stuff like XHR	12:42
Venemo_N900	FireFly\|n900: indeed, they just generate awful code	12:42
RobbieThe1st	It does. I make a mistake and I get "error x on line y".	12:42
edheldil	like Zoidberg ... errr. Zuckerberg :)	12:42
crashanddie_	Venemo_N900, I also know a lot of girls who earn a fortune by being prostitutes, doesn't make any of them righteous. Or should we talk about bankers?	12:42
Venemo_N900	FireFly\|n900: I like its effects and UI library the most	12:42
Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: good point	12:43
RobbieThe1st	PHP has, if nothing else, an excellent manual with examples of all sorts of things. With javascript, the best you get is half-a-dozen poorly written sites each with different explanations of what should work and what does. Oh, and sites still talking about IE-only stuff	12:43
Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: btw, the fact that you a lot of those girls, tells something about you :P	12:43
FireFly\|n900	Venemo_N900, the problem with people who learns jQuery as their first "language" is that they don't understand what their function calls does, repeating CSS selectors one after another	12:43
crashanddie_	RobbieThe1st, if you want a good manual, try Java, or even Perl. Those manuals are miles ahead of PHP	12:44
Venemo_N900	FireFly\|n900: that is true	12:44
FireFly\|n900	Which leads to slow, hard-to-mantain code	12:44
FireFly\|n900	But I'm sure it has its uses, if used correctly :)	12:44
Venemo_N900	FireFly\|n900: agreed :)	12:44
crashanddie_	anyway	12:44
crashanddie_	old flamewar	12:44
crashanddie_	I've been a PHP user for quite a few years, I've even committed patches and stuff	12:45
crashanddie_	but the devs are wankers	12:45
crashanddie_	who spit on you as soon as you raise questions about the security of the language	12:45
Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: Qt's docs are also very good, so are the MSDN docs	12:45
crashanddie_	indeed	12:45
crashanddie_	anyway, lunch with gf, later	12:45
timeless_webchat	msdn docs are good	12:45
timeless_webchat	not sure about Qt docs	12:45
Venemo_N900	crashanddie_: good apetite	12:45
timeless_webchat	enjoy lunch	12:45
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: so far, I found what I was looking for in the Qt docs	12:46
RobbieThe1st	QT's docs are... fairly good. I did(am) run(ning) into issues with translating from QT to PyQT, and finding proper examples of various things...	12:46
kerio	i don't believe you'll have lunch, enjoy your passionate sex	12:46
kerio	no, wait, i got that wrong	12:46
timeless_webchat	RobbieThe1st: =~ s/QT/Qt/g	12:46
timeless_webchat	QT=QuickTime	12:46
RobbieThe1st	People still use that?	12:46
timeless_webchat	kerio: lunch [time]	12:46
kerio	RobbieThe1st: sure	12:47
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: MSDN has some things that are ridiculously non-documented though	12:47
RobbieThe1st	I thought that died back in the '90s, when it had that horrible rounded grey interface and was never compatible with anything and always crashed...	12:47
Venemo_N900	RobbieThe1st: what?	12:48
timeless_webchat	http://www.apple.com/macosx/what-is-macosx/quicktime.html	12:48
Venemo_N900	unfortunately it hasn't died yet	12:49
timeless_webchat	sivang: remind me to get a better picture of http://images.apple.com/macosx/what-is-macosx/images/quicktime_player20090824.jpg	12:49
RobbieThe1st	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/QuickTime_7.6.6_for_Windows.png <- and they -still- haven't upgraded the interface!	12:49
joga	http://twitter.com/mikkohypponen/status/1935453057974272	12:49
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lardman	re	12:50
timeless_webchat	jorga: err	12:50
timeless_webchat	that's the wrong ui	12:50
timeless_webchat	they switched to brushed metal (?)	12:50
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timeless_webchat	err, not joga , sorry	12:53
mece	joga, scary	12:54
timeless_webchat	mece: not quite accurate	12:54
timeless_webchat	if you're offline, it asks a question :)	12:55
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timeless_webchat	it's a "feature"	12:55
timeless_webchat	oh, and maemo has the same one	12:55
timeless_webchat	so don't go complaining about apple	12:55
mece	timeless_webchat: well that's erm... comforting.	12:55
mece	timeless_webchat, it does? funky. Anyway.	12:55
timeless_webchat	the apple feature is "don't bother the user from the web browser"	12:56
timeless_webchat	the maemo feature is the same	12:56
timeless_webchat	whether an app is smart enough to protect its user is thus a per app feature	12:56
timeless_webchat	ham for instance is intentionally not interested in being particularly protective	12:56
timeless_webchat	the call app otoh generally requires you to click the green button (gameable -- not actually valid protection)	12:57
kerio	well, who the hell uses HAM	12:57
timeless_webchat	kerio: who uninstalls it?	12:57
kerio	i didn't know you could uninstall it :O	12:57
timeless_webchat	remember, the issue isn't whether you use Y normally	12:57
timeless_webchat	it's whether someone can convince your device to launch Y anyway	12:57
timeless_webchat	the same reason you need to update IE on Windows even if you use something else	12:57
timeless_webchat	something might convince your web browser to launch IE	12:58
joga	I tried opening that with n900 but nothing happened :)	12:58
timeless_webchat	joga: i don't think we register skype:	12:58
timeless_webchat	but we could	12:58
timeless_webchat	my point is that from the protocol stack level, we're no different than apple	12:58
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joga	k	12:58
timeless_webchat	both apple and maemo leave the dialog in the hands of the third party	12:58
timeless_webchat	which as shown is typically stupid	12:59
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: what do you mean, no different?	12:59
timeless_webchat	Venemo_N900: click on a link to a protocol in your browser on the n900	12:59
timeless_webchat	we don't pop up a "do you want to open foo:" dialog	12:59
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: oh.	12:59
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: okay	13:00
timeless_webchat	from an architecture standpoint, we are not better	13:00
timeless_webchat	we're accidentally better for a single one off protocol	13:00
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timeless_webchat	but only because of how we integrated them into our stack	13:00
Venemo_N900	timeless_webchat: what is that single one?	13:00
timeless_webchat	if they shipped their own skype client, they'd be just as vulnerable on our stack	13:01
timeless_webchat	skype:	13:01
timeless_webchat	read the actual report, he isn't complaining about skype:	13:01
timeless_webchat	he's complaining about apple not guarding against foo:	13:01
lcuk	thats the same for pretty much all protocol links though isnt it?	13:01
timeless_webchat	and apple is saying it's foo's job to handle foo:	13:01
lcuk	if the machine is configured to open xyz: links using xyz.exe application then, meh?	13:02
Venemo_N900	heh	13:02
timeless_webchat	lcuk: desktop browsers tend to ask	13:02
timeless_webchat	they have more space for undecipherable messages	13:03
timeless_webchat	the reality is that a browser isn't in a position to ask a useful question	13:03
lcuk	timeless_webchat, tell that to things when I accidentally click mail: links	13:03
timeless_webchat	it doesn't know if foo: is dangerous or harmless	13:03
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lcuk	i think the problem is more the iframe than anything	13:03
lcuk	evil nasty things ;)	13:03
timeless_webchat	lcuk: network.protocol-handler.warn-external.mailto;false	13:03
timeless_webchat	set that to true in your favorite geckos	13:03
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lcuk	i use internet explorer 4. microsoft told me it was the best and most secure ever.	13:04
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lcuk	my windows Me installation is so much safer with it	13:04
timeless_webchat	hrm	13:04
timeless_webchat	unregister mailto: ?	13:05
timeless_webchat	or change it to something which doesn't actually do mail	13:05
lcuk	am joking, already in about:config	13:05
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timeless_webchat	(Pass 4) identifier 2163300 [libxml2] of 426 / 673 files...	13:06
* timeless_webchat sighs		13:06
timeless_webchat	merging 673 indexes is not fast	13:06
Venemo_N900	guys, I have to leave now	13:08
Venemo_N900	have a good afternoon :)	13:08
lardman	hmm, Symbian closed sourced again	13:08
Venemo_N900	lardman: ???	13:09
lardman	http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11713192	13:09
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Venemo_N900	is that true?	13:09
lardman	or perhaps it's just a shuffling and it will remain open, but directed like Maemo was	13:10
Venemo_N900	lardman: nothing in that article mentions closed sourcing	13:11
lardman	apologies, my jumping to a conclusion	13:11
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Venemo_N900	lardman: no problem, but it would have surprised me	13:12
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lardman	I was just wondering if, as the commentator said at the bottom, they had decided that open sourcing had been a mistake	13:13
timeless_webchat	well...	13:13
timeless_webchat	the reality is that open sourcing didn't get them much	13:13
lardman	yep	13:14
timeless_webchat	it basically burned X EUR + X man months	13:14
Venemo_N900	lardman: I don't know, but I don't think so	13:14
maybeWTF	name change would have been more productive	13:14
timeless_webchat	maybeWTF: nope	13:14
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timeless_webchat	you can't rename a dog	13:14
maybeWTF	so all the people with dirty minds didn't have to think twice when mentioning symbian	13:14
timeless_webchat	it won't wag its tail any better	13:14
lardman	timeless_webchat: Symbian in the days of Psion was not so dog like ;)	13:14
timeless_webchat	the few people who like it would have a new chance to learn reasons not ot like it	13:14
timeless_webchat	s/not ot/not to/	13:14
infobot	timeless_webchat meant: the few people who like it would have a new chance to learn reasons not to like it	13:14
timeless_webchat	better to keep loyalty from those who did like the old dog	13:15
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timeless_webchat	in some ways, it probably helped maemo	13:15
timeless_webchat	less resources on the symbian side could be effectively deployed to compete w/ us :)	13:15
lardman	Is there an article somewhere on what the fundamental limitations of the Symbian platform are? I know people go on about how limited it has become	13:15
timeless_webchat	lardman: hrm	13:16
lardman	s/limited/constraining	13:16
jacekowski	are they closing it competly	13:16
jacekowski	or just closing development?	13:16
lardman	jacekowski: seems I jumped to a conclusion not supported by the facts	13:16
lardman	so we don't know	13:16
timeless_webchat	problems in symbian:	13:17
jacekowski	i mean like in they develop it internally and then release code when done	13:17
timeless_webchat	1. way too many incompatible ui toolkits	13:17
jacekowski	timeless_webchat: linux does same	13:17
timeless_webchat	2. just because you picked a given ui toolkit didn't mean you could ship to everything that had that toolkit	13:17
jacekowski	timeless_webchat: QT, GTK and couple others	13:17
timeless_webchat	-- because for some reason there were version breaks or something	13:17
jacekowski	timeless_webchat: linux does the same	13:17
timeless_webchat	jacekowski: =~ s/QT/Qt/g	13:17
timeless_webchat	jacekowski: linux has better apologists :)	13:17
jacekowski	hmm	13:18
jacekowski	Symbian will continue be developed by its community of programmers around the world, but Nokia will now oversee this process.	13:18
timeless_webchat	3. the memory model was too complicated for poor programmers	13:18
timeless_webchat	-- this doesn't mean that it's better on linux, just that most users are more forgiving on desktop (if they're using linux on desktop)	13:18
jacekowski	timeless_webchat: complicated?	13:19
timeless_webchat	(linux desktop users accept crap, phone users can't afford to in the same way)	13:19
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timeless_webchat	jacekowski: are you familiar w/ it, or challenging me to be annoying?	13:19
jacekowski	i'm familiar with it	13:19
jacekowski	and i wouldn't say it's complicated	13:19
timeless_webchat	i wouldn't either	13:19
timeless_webchat	but that's the standard complaint	13:19
jacekowski	whole idea is different	13:19
timeless_webchat	it actually makes sense	13:19
timeless_webchat	but note i wrote "too complicated for poor programmers"	13:20
timeless_webchat	not too complicated for good programmers	13:20
jacekowski	s/poor/stupid/	13:20
timeless_webchat	sure	13:20
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jacekowski	i saw some sad people that have no idea that there is something like pointers	13:20
timeless_webchat	4. the app store story for Symbian is a trail of tears	13:20
timeless_webchat	-- i'm not saying it's better on Maemo or Linux in general	13:21
jacekowski	well, first phone with real app store was iphone	13:21
timeless_webchat	well	13:21
jacekowski	thing is that is you keep platform open like that	13:21
timeless_webchat	nokia had 4 or more different attempts	13:21
timeless_webchat	Download!	13:21
jacekowski	you will have alternatives	13:21
SpeedEvil	wasn't there a palm phone early on with lots of apps?	13:21
jacekowski	alternative repositories	13:21
timeless_webchat	was iirc one of the middle incarnations	13:21
SpeedEvil	Or at least, that could run palmpilot apps	13:21
timeless_webchat	SpeedEvil: yes	13:21
timeless_webchat	jacekowski: i'm explaining the pain points	13:22
timeless_webchat	i'm not saying they're absolutely insurmountable	13:22
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timeless_webchat	they're pain points <period>	13:22
SpeedEvil	Was there a central app-store for that - I forget.	13:22
timeless_webchat	they aren't necessarily unique to symbian	13:22
* SpeedEvil wonders about an emulated palmpilot that also emulates graffiti		13:23
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lardman	apologies, had to talk to someone	13:26
timeless_webchat	5. symbian signing was a mess	13:26
timeless_webchat	-- partially due to locking, lack of consistent signature recognition, etc.	13:26
lardman	so basically the limitations of Symbian, so far, are replicated in Linux	13:26
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timeless_webchat	-- again, not necessarily a problem unique to symbian	13:26
timeless_webchat	lardman: or coming soon!	13:26
lardman	:)	13:27
timeless_webchat	6. symbian apis never die (this is a win16/win32 like trait, unlike linux!)	13:27
lcuk	timeless_webchat, :P when giving lists, use a prefix or a suffix so that we can go back at a later date :P	13:27
lardman	well that and the ui toolkit problem can now be addressed as Nokia pull the strings	13:27
timeless_webchat	lcuk: yeah yeah	13:27
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timeless_webchat	lardman: funny	13:28
lardman	really? Why not?	13:28
timeless_webchat	let's not go there now?	13:28
timeless_webchat	7. language support in symbian more or less sucked due to resource constraints on the target devices	13:28
timeless_webchat	-- not technically a problem w/ symbian as a stack, just a constraint imposed by vendors	13:28
lardman	exactly	13:29
timeless_webchat	but please remember, we're talking about reasons people don't like writing for it	13:29
timeless_webchat	that includes the whole env, not just the theoretical underpinnings	13:29
lardman	horrible syntax	13:29
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timeless_webchat	if your OS supports 4etabytes of memory	13:29
timeless_webchat	but only gives me 640k	13:29
timeless_webchat	you don't get credit in my book for the rest	13:29
lardman	but the constraint there is a hw limitation?	13:30
timeless_webchat	typically yes	13:30
timeless_webchat	combined w/ vendors choosing to optimize resources	13:30
timeless_webchat	8. until recently vendors generally didn't provide OTA updates or service packs or whatever	13:31
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timeless_webchat	-- this was partially because operators blocked them, not because the updates didn't exist	13:31
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lardman	so then that leads me to my next question, what is the appeal, if anything of using Meego rather than Symbian? Other than a fresh start?	13:32
timeless_webchat	it addresses point 6	13:32
timeless_webchat	and gives people a chance to screw up the other points all over again :)	13:32
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timeless_webchat	arguably 3 is replaced by a surprise (whether this is good...)	13:33
timeless_webchat	actually in maemo 5, 3 was replaced by the device swapping to death	13:33
timeless_webchat	(always a good thing?)	13:33
lardman	Symbian supports vitrual memory doesn't it?	13:34
timeless_webchat	you didn't generally design a phone to swap to death w/ symbian	13:34
timeless_webchat	we did w/ the n900 -- it was a marketing requirement	13:34
lardman	I mean I see next to no difference between Linux and Symbian, other than Linux is open source and there's lots of code around (both good things), but that doesn't necessarily make any odds to a phone manuf	13:34
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jacekowski	lardman: yes	13:34
timeless_webchat	oh	13:35
timeless_webchat	9. the TCP stack was "different"	13:35
timeless_webchat	10. The C library was "different"	13:36
lardman	timeless_webchat: the lack of swap death seems to me, based on the Psion days, of careful design for constrained devices - but that may have gone away since then	13:36
timeless_webchat	lardman: i'm not claiming swapping to death is a good thing	13:36
timeless_webchat	in fact, i hope based on my description you'll understand it isn't imo	13:36
lardman	no nor I, but it always seemed to me that Linux was not designed for limited resource devices	13:36
timeless_webchat	points 1-3, 9 + 10 meant that porting software to Symbian was painful	13:36
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jacekowski	lardman: it's not	13:37
jacekowski	lardman: i mean kernel can deal with it	13:37
timeless_webchat	yeah, it isn't	13:37
lardman	yes I know that porting pain feeling	13:37
jacekowski	lardman: but when you use full X with stuff	13:37
timeless_webchat	note, i'm not saying porting is impossible	13:37
timeless_webchat	Putty is ported	13:37
timeless_webchat	Apache was ported	13:37
timeless_webchat	(by nokia iirc)	13:37
jacekowski	iirc Xorg on n900 is using like 70-80M of ram	13:37
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timeless_webchat	i think some of that might be the Display itself	13:37
jacekowski	loads of it is resources from applications	13:38
timeless_webchat	yeah, that too	13:38
jacekowski	but WTF?	13:38
lardman	What I'm trying to establish, in a round about way, is why Nokia have changed the plan re Symbian	13:38
timeless_webchat	lardman: well	13:38
timeless_webchat	Open Source was buzzword compliant	13:38
timeless_webchat	Nokia strives to be buzzword compliant	13:38
lardman	lol	13:38
timeless_webchat	it tends to be a bit late, but it tries	13:38
jacekowski	dos had 640kb of ram	13:39
timeless_webchat	but really	13:39
jacekowski	and it was working	13:39
timeless_webchat	the reason to open source was to enable nokia to buy out the other shareholders in symbian	13:39
jacekowski	with games and stuff	13:39
timeless_webchat	it wasn't really for buzzword	13:39
jacekowski	timeless_webchat: symbian will still be open source according to that article	13:39
lardman	jacekowski: I think timeless was saying that it's all well and good Symbian having a 32bit address space when the hw it was running on had next to no ram	13:39
timeless_webchat	jacekowski: i'm talking about 2008	13:39
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timeless_webchat	lardman: yeah, i meant that, although i definitely didn't say it :)	13:40
lardman	I read between the pixels	13:40
timeless_webchat	my belief is that when nokia wanted to get control over symbian	13:40
jacekowski	well	13:40
jacekowski	n95 had more ram	13:40
timeless_webchat	it had to promise to the other stakeholders it would open source	13:40
jacekowski	and symbian	13:40
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timeless_webchat	anyway, it's 1:40pm	13:40
lardman	ah I see	13:40
timeless_webchat	i need to leave if i want to get food	13:40
lardman	eat!	13:41
timeless_webchat	nokia had a couple of strategies	13:41
timeless_webchat	one was gaining control	13:41
timeless_webchat	open sourcing enabled that	13:41
timeless_webchat	another was Qt everywhere	13:41
timeless_webchat	buying Trolltech and controlling Symbian enabled that	13:41
timeless_webchat	note: i've never written apps for symbian	13:42
timeless_webchat	otoh, i have had a patch committed to symbian :)	13:42
lardman	patching what?	13:43
zap	Is here anybody who can solve a problem with package autobuilder?	13:43
X-Fade	zap: sure.	13:44
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zap	X-Fade: could you please look at the unzip package. I have submited a new version but it doesn't get into -devel after successfuly building	13:45
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timeless_webchat	oh...	13:45
timeless_webchat	11. the compiler toolchain story wasn't always wonderful	13:45
alterego	zap: you have to wait for the importer	13:45
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alterego	zap: did you get the build successful email?	13:46
zap	Sure, long ago	13:47
zap	In fact, I got it first for version -maemo1, then for -maemo2	13:47
alterego	How long ago?	13:48
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zap	yesterday\	13:48
zap	(-maemo2)	13:48
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alterego	Hrm	13:48
alterego	Interesting.	13:48
zap	http://maemo.org/packages/view/unzip/	13:49
zap	it could be because the version numeration is different from what was submited earlier by Daniel Mart?n Yerga	13:49
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zap	this is a pure maemo package, he submited an adaptation of the debian package (1maemo1)	13:50
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alterego	Simple answer .. I'm not sure what's wrong.	13:51
lardman	is 6.0-1maemoX > 6.0-maemoX	13:51
zap	no	13:51
alterego	Yes	13:51
zap	I checked with dpkg --compare-versions	13:51
zap	maemo1 > 1maemo1	13:52
alterego	Really?	13:52
alterego	Crazy	13:52
zap	(because 'm' > '1' I suppose)	13:52
lardman	depends how the repo filler script works I guess	13:52
alterego	huh, oh yeah	13:52
zap	I tried to submit version 1maemo2	13:52
zap	it didnt get replaced as well	13:52
lardman	that was rejected	13:53
X-Fade	zap: yeah you created a version number mess. :)	13:53
zap	not me :]	13:53
zap	unzip always used the -maemo# scheme	13:53
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X-Fade	You need something which is > 6.0-1maemo1 at least.	13:53
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lardman	https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/unzip_6.0-maemo2/summary.log seems ok	13:54
zap	I submitted -1maemo2	13:54
zap	it didn't worked	13:54
zap	https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/unzip_6.0-1maemo2/	13:54
lardman	-1maemo2 was rejected	13:54
zap	why?	13:54
lardman	because there was a newer version in the repo already	13:54
zap	REJECTED: The same or newer version (unzip 6.0-maemo1) is already in extras-devel	13:54
zap	muhahah	13:54
zap	:\	13:55
lardman	http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/u/unzip/	13:55
lardman	it looks like it's in there to me	13:55
zap	hmm, but the package page doesn't list it	13:55
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zap	so I can't promote it to -testing	13:56
lardman	yes it does, down the bottom	13:56
zap	I can click on it, but there's no Promote button in there	13:56
lardman	you've already promoted it to -testing afaict	13:57
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zap	http://repository.maemo.org/extras-testing/pool/fremantle/free/u/unzip/	13:57
kerio	schizophrenia	13:57
zap	it isn't there	13:57
lardman	well that's a different issue	13:57
lardman	X-Fade: how often does the promoter run?	13:58
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X-Fade	lardman: twice per hour.	13:58
lardman	hmm, it has been ~13h since it was promoted	13:58
zap	how do you see it has been promoted?	13:59
X-Fade	It is probably because of the numbering scheme. Various tools don't like you switching.	13:59
lardman	bottom of this page: http://maemo.org/packages/view/unzip/	13:59
zap	ah, indeed	13:59
zap	well, I think dpkg --compare-versions is the ultimate judge?	14:00
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lardman	probably should be, but whatever scripts actually do the work may not agree with it	14:01
lardman	incorrectly of course	14:02
lardman	but we'll have to wait and see what X-Fade comes up with	14:02
zap	sure, he's my last hope :)	14:02
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X-Fade	zap: Let me just remove the 1maemo1 one and see what happens.	14:12
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X-Fade	Lunch, brb.	14:13
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lardman	ok so not going closed source at all then: http://www.symbian.org/news-and-media	14:15
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hrw	lardman: but with only nokia behind Symbian it will not evolve	14:21
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lardman	hrw: perhaps	14:22
lardman	but apparently I was wrong, and it's supposed to be open but guided	14:22
lardman	who knows! :)	14:22
zap	X-Fade: it just disappeared from package page :)	14:22
hrw	lardman: but will it change anything?	14:23
hrw	lardman: meego is also open, but harmattan (which is nokiameego) will be ~50% closed anyway	14:24
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kerio	:(	14:26
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crashanddie_	nokeego (!OK-GO)	14:26
kerio	so i see project "let's break into nokia's hq and steal all the hw specs for the n900" is still not go	14:26
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crashanddie_	only if we wear aari jaaksi masks	14:27
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SchorschlV6	hey guys... any ideas why pulseaudio wouldn't came up after reboot? (n900)	14:28
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SchorschlV6	omg	14:32
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SchorschlV6	the error was: /home/user/.mafw-playlists/DEADJOE exists... god!	14:33
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zap	DEADJOE is an invalid hex number, use DEADBEEF instead	14:39
hrw	lardman: same will be with symbian phones.	14:40
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hrw	kerio: define 'hw specs'	14:40
qwebirc456329	12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will)	14:40
*** qwebirc456329 is now known as timeless_chatweb		14:41
timeless_chatweb	12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will)	14:41
Scelt	12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will)	14:41
timeless_chatweb	-- that's an advantage for someone who has to bankroll their phone os	14:41
kerio	12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will)	14:41
Termana	wtf	14:41
Termana	:p	14:41
* timeless_chatweb blames webchat		14:42
psycho_oreos	copy and paste craze	14:42
kerio	hrw: complete hardware specifications for each tiny chip in the n900	14:42
kerio	EEEEEVERYTHING	14:42
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hrw	kerio: forget it	14:43
kerio	why? :(	14:43
hrw	kerio: TI does not give complete specs neither	14:44
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kerio	ok, project "let's break into nokia and TI's HQs to get complete hardware specs for the n900"	14:44
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maybeWTF	you'll end up having to break into some taiwanese/chinese company HQ too	14:46
kerio	well i imagine them not being a real problem	14:46
kerio	you probably just have to pay	14:46
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Gorroth	trying to get a libnet-dev package out before i head to work	14:47
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Gorroth	i don't know how to make the dh_* programs install man pages under /opt instead of /usr though :-/	14:47
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Gorroth	even though i compile with --prefix=/opt	14:47
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Gorroth	i might just release this to extras-devel as it is and try to fix the doc situation later	14:51
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timeless_chatweb	Gorroth: man pages generally get killed by the install process, so i'm not sure it matters	14:59
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Gorroth	what do you mean?	15:02
Gorroth	i can install man pages	15:02
Gorroth	it's just they go to /usr instead of /opt	15:02
zap	Gorroth: cat /usr/share/man/README	15:03
Gorroth	zap: the purged thing? i guess that means that when you do an install, the installer strips out all man pages?	15:04
Gorroth	hmm, somehow i got squid to install man pages to /opt.... let me see how i did that	15:04
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lardman	hrw: apologies for the slow response	15:15
lardman	hrw: yeah, well that's what I was wondering, seems like both platforms are pretty similar in terms of openness with both having various disadvantages and advantages	15:16
lardman	the main plus for Linux being the availability of existing code, though the need to tailor it for resource constrained devices is a disadvantage imo	15:17
lardman	anyway, /me heads for lunch	15:17
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kerio	well, µClinux is opensource too	15:17
kerio	also how is the n900 resource-limited?	15:18
kerio	my old computer that ran debian was slower	15:19
kerio	and had about the same ram	15:19
kerio	and less hd space	15:19
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Gorroth	okay, uploaded libnet	15:20
Gorroth	hope it builds	15:20
lardman\|afk	let me reply when I get home	15:20
lardman\|afk	but really the N900 does suffer under the memory load	15:20
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kerio	oh of course	15:20
kerio	but the solution is to use less ram	15:21
kerio	duh	15:21
FauxFaux	The first pc I remember owning, and I wasn't an early starter or anything, so this isn't that geeky, was 33mhz with 500mb of hdd. It's not even funny how much more powerful than that the n900 is.	15:21
Gorroth	yeah, the n900 does suffer under memory pressure :-/	15:21
lardman\|afk	so I suppose what I should say is that modern sw, which is what people want, is not designed to be memory efficient	15:21
lardman\|afk	necessarily	15:21
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lardman\|afk	Linux (and by that I mean more than just the kernel) has certainly been designed for desktop computers with desktop HDD and RAM	15:21
lardman\|afk	that's the issue I see	15:22
lardman\|afk	anyway, will bbiab	15:22
kerio	gecko is the thing that really eats up the ram	15:22
hrw	kerio: it is hard to use less ram when after running few apps real ram ends in n900	15:22
kerio	so i blame timeless	15:22
timeless_chatweb	?	15:23
timeless_chatweb	oh	15:23
iDont	kerio: run!	15:23
timeless_chatweb	well	15:23
* timeless_chatweb shrugs		15:23
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kerio	i mean, i love gecko, it's a really awesome html renderer and it's a cute animal too	15:23
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timeless_chatweb	heh	15:23
kerio	but there is a reason other handheld platforms use webkit for their browser	15:24
timeless_chatweb	the system has lots of running processes	15:24
kerio	PULSEAUDIOOOOOOOOO	15:24
timeless_chatweb	linux desktops don't typically have as may, especially older desktops	15:24
kerio	almost forgot about that	15:24
Gorroth	hmm, where is that page that says if the autobuilder is building your things or not?	15:24
kerio	timeless_chatweb: well, my old desktop ran two users, one on kde and the other on gnome at the same time	15:24
kerio	with 384mb of ram	15:24
Gorroth	oh, whoops! it built already, and i just submitted again	15:25
Gorroth	well, anyway, now libnet-dev is available in extras-devel or should be soon	15:25
hrw	kerio: during UDS-N I met nokia guy which had 'nokia browser' based on webkit	15:26
kerio	timeless_chatweb: wait, what	15:26
hrw	Gorroth: libnet 1.0.x or 1.2.x?	15:26
kerio	what processes?	15:26
Gorroth	hrw: i started with 1.1.2.1	15:26
Gorroth	hrw: i'll update it after i get ettercap uploaded	15:26
Gorroth	hrw: just working now with what i know works	15:26
MohammadAG	hmm	15:26
MohammadAG	how do I cut out two lines from output?	15:27
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timeless_webchat	grr	15:28
timeless_webchat	where was i?	15:28
timeless_webchat	kerio: your computer had a 50% head start on memory vs the n900's 256mb	15:28
kerio	and ran gnome AND kde	15:29
kerio	(with massive swapping ofc)	15:29
timeless_webchat	the swap backing we have is also probably slower than a hdd from 3 years ago	15:29
iDont	I don't know if this matters, but AFAIK the n900 got just a 32-bit bus for the RAM	15:29
timeless_webchat	?	15:29
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iDont	moder pc's have bigger busses for the ram right?	15:30
iDont	*modern	15:30
SpeedEvil	yes	15:30
iDont	so not only does the N900 got less ram, but also slower ram	15:30
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iDont	than the 386mb ram box probably had/had	15:30
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SpeedEvil	The swap backing is in some ways slower, some ways faster	15:31
SpeedEvil	It's not consistent.	15:31
SpeedEvil	In principle, it's _lotS_ faster if it's dealt with well.	15:31
SpeedEvil	But it's not.	15:31
MohammadAG	nvm, figured that out	15:31
MohammadAG	but, if I have lines with text and numbers, how do I filter out the text?	15:32
MohammadAG	sda	15:32
MohammadAG	sda1	15:32
MohammadAG	I want only sda1 to show	15:32
MohammadAG	or sda[1..100]	15:32
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alterego	Regular expressions	15:32
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: what is the text?	15:32
hrw	MohammadAG: egrep sda[0-9]*	15:32
MohammadAG	e?grep?	15:32
alterego	but if you're thinking of parsing dmesg output to get the partitions that's nasty :P	15:33
MohammadAG	nah, that's stupid, cat /proc/partitions \| awk '{print $4}' \| awk '{ if ( NR > 2 ) { print } }'	15:33
MohammadAG	muhaha	15:34
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MohammadAG	hrw, didn't work btw, I have to take into account sdb too	15:34
hrw	MohammadAG: egrep sd[ab][0-9]*	15:35
SpeedEvil	awk 'NR>2{print $4}' /proc/partitions	15:35
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG	15:35
hrw	14:37 hrw@home:~$ ll /dev\|egrep sd[a-l][0-9]*	15:35
Gorroth	lulz	15:35
Gorroth	tail +3 <file>	15:36
Gorroth	mwahahahaha	15:36
MohammadAG	thanks SpeedEvil, still stuck at the sd* part	15:36
SpeedEvil	what sd part?	15:36
SpeedEvil	I'm not understanding what output you're wanting	15:37
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MohammadAG	I want to list partitions, not blocks	15:37
alterego	MohammadAG: with your hostmode2 kernel, does your camera app still work?	15:37
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MohammadAG	alterego, why wouldn't it	15:37
MohammadAG	unless you have fcam	15:37
SpeedEvil	awk 'NR>2&&$4~"[0-9]$"{print $4}' /proc/partitions	15:38
alterego	MohammadAG: I had to reflash stock PR1.3 kernel this morning because the stock camera app wouldn't work and GPS seemed to fail to work with my app.	15:38
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MohammadAG	alterego, fcamera?	15:38
MohammadAG	as for GPS, it works	15:38
MohammadAG	I learned that the hard way	15:38
MohammadAG	was testing smscon from a classmate's device	15:38
SpeedEvil	If this is the third or successive line, and the fourth field matches the regex (has the last char a number) print the fourth field	15:38
alterego	This is GPS specifically through using Qt mobility.	15:38
MohammadAG	ten minutes later, his inbox had 10 messages from mine	15:38
alterego	The Maps app works fine.	15:39
MohammadAG	alterego, err, that's userspace	15:39
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: actually - you can drop the first test - as the first two lines do not have a number in the fourth filed	15:39
alterego	Well, I'll have to investigate further, but I had to reflash stock PR1.3 kernel only and everything start working again.	15:39
MohammadAG	no idea then	15:39
MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, thanks!	15:39
MohammadAG	so in theory, this should work right?	15:41
MohammadAG	for partitions in "`awk '$4~"[0-9]$"{print $4}' /proc/partitions`"	15:41
MohammadAG	do mkdir /media/$partitions	15:41
MohammadAG	mount /dev/$partitions /media/$partitions	15:41
MohammadAG	done	15:41
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* SpeedEvil ponders		15:43
SpeedEvil	mkdir -p would probably be a good idea	15:44
MohammadAG	indeed, forgot about that	15:44
SpeedEvil	Also - do you care about USB sticks being differentiable?	15:44
MohammadAG	hmm, shouldn't the default file manager using the partition name anyways?	15:46
MohammadAG	since it shows WD PASSPORT even if I mount the HDD on /media/folder	15:46
MohammadAG	what's the omap-aes driver?	15:48
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lardman	aes sounds like an encryption thingie	15:55
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lardman	so possibly a driver for the on-chip encryption hw?	15:56
X-Fade	That is a hardware aes encrypt/decrypt processor.	15:56
X-Fade	afaik there is also hardware md5/sha1 in there.	15:57
tobis87	The omap-aes driver is the driver which uses the hardware acceleration which is built-in the omap cpu.	15:57
lardman	where is this driver?	15:57
lardman	on-device?	15:57
tobis87	And a hardware random generator is also in there.	15:57
MohammadAG	someone fixed the driver	15:58
tobis87	lardman: I have just posted the fix http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-November/027877.html	15:58
lardman	ah good stuff	15:58
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MohammadAG	so it builds against 2.6.28(?)	15:59
tobis87	Yes, since I took the part which belongs into the kernel normally (platform driver) and merged it into the module. But you will need to update Nolo, or it will reboot your device.	15:59
jacekowski	X-Fade: yep, but docs how to use it are not public	16:00
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jacekowski	X-Fade: and somebody only released driver for aes part of it	16:01
jacekowski	MohammadAG: we have to talk	16:01
tobis87	jacekowski: No, the package also include sha1-md5. 3DES is missing.	16:01
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tobis87	jacekowski: I missed the platform driver for the sha1-md5 driver on the first version I sent you.	16:04
lardman	does anyone know off hand who the author of the module is? Did it come from Ti's open sourcing venture?	16:04
tobis87	lardman: Dmitry Kasatkin	16:05
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lardman	Nokia then	16:06
tobis87	Yes	16:06
tobis87	But I still miss an engine for openssl, to make use of it in userspace. I now use it to encrypt the swap on the N900.	16:07
jacekowski	i don't get why you encrypt swap	16:07
jacekowski	there is nothing there	16:07
jacekowski	i mean, all passwords and stuff should be mlocked anyways	16:08
ShadowJK	I'd want to accelerate ssh	16:08
tobis87	Because I can? :-D Don't know, I think it is a habit.	16:08
tobis87	ShadowJK: Yes, I hope for a real engine for openssl.	16:13
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ShadowJK	does ssh even use openssl?	16:21
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jacekowski	yes	16:21
tobis87	Yes, you will need to force openssl to do so. Padlock as an example: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=710243	16:24
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gpgp	has anyone here moved the OS to the external card ?	16:40
gpgp	on a n810 i am talking about	16:40
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luke-jr_	gpgp: my N810 runs Gentoo on an external card	16:41
gpgp	wow, i am way behind on this device	16:42
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gpgp	i read a how to to move meamo to the ext card , wondering if it was still current.	16:43
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gpgp	luke-jr_: did you follow a guide or are you just smart ?	16:43
luke-jr_	gpgp: what would you need a guide for?	16:43
alterego	Not too smart if he's using Gentoo :P	16:44
alterego	ooOOooooo	16:44
luke-jr_	alterego: as if there's anything else for N8x0	16:44
gpgp	i am getting old, cant remember stuff like i used to	16:44
luke-jr_	Maemo is dead. Mer is dead.	16:44
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luke-jr_	nobody else supports N8x0 anymore	16:44
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alterego	Well, we're trying to from the MeeGo front.	16:45
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gpgp	i know, its just recently i found a new use for my device. it still has the same probs it always did, too slow , not enough ram etc	16:45
alterego	At least, the desire is there anyway ..	16:45
luke-jr_	gpgp: RAM isn't too bad if you run it CLI	16:45
gpgp	what is the functionality of running geentoo on it ?	16:45
gpgp	i want to use it as a bike computer	16:46
gpgp	maybe with arduino input ?	16:46
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luke-jr_	gpgp: the same functionality Gentoo has anywhere	16:47
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gpgp	i guess i will stick with meamo but on the ext card for more room. thanks luke-jr_	16:50
luke-jr_	Maemo is dead.	16:50
Appiah	ooooh boy	16:50
gpgp	but it has the basic functionality i need. it is not like the n810 is going to grow into better hardware	16:51
luke-jr_	it also has security holes, etc	16:52
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gpgp	not too worried about security on a bicycle computer really	16:53
* luke-jr_ will h4x u when he drives by		16:54
luke-jr_	just to prove a point	16:54
gpgp	oh my god he could find out my average speed	16:54
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nidO	its way more sinister than that, he could also get your total distance travelled.	16:54
gpgp	perhaps point of origin, that could be bbad	16:55
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gpgp	anyone else put other distros on it ?	16:57
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johnsq	Hi	17:29
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alterego	Weird,	17:53
alterego	My app is taking 90% CPU and it's not actually really doing anything.	17:54
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alterego	Should just be processing an event that occurs every second	17:55
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MohammadAG	alterego, N900/IO?	17:55
alterego	Nope, should be doing much IO	17:56
alterego	~shouldn't.	17:56
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Turski	alterego: sleep probably shows up as 100%...	17:58
alterego	Erm. don't think so :P	17:58
Turski	well, probably not...	17:59
Turski	i thought that i had seen such with shell script sleep on n900	17:59
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alterego	It's rendering	18:00
alterego	Think I need to look into the optimizations I made on my widgets again.	18:00
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* alterego stops the animation on his suspected CPU killing widget ^.^		18:04
zap	X-Fade: have you looked at the unzip problem?	18:04
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alterego	< 1% before events start happening.	18:04
X-Fade	zap: Yes, but it isn't a quick fix. I can't pinpoint the exact cause of the issue yet.	18:05
zap	X-Fade: thank you, I'll wait	18:05
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* MohammadAG sighs - need to find a way to get HAM to recognize my damn repo		18:06
MohammadAG	I'm seeing </certified> on Nokia's repos, maybe I should add that?	18:06
alterego	Hrm, ~20% improvement.	18:06
alterego	Which is actually what I would have guessed.	18:06
alterego	So 60% CPU usage :/	18:07
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Yes, maybe that helps.	18:07
alterego	avg 50% it would seem.	18:07
MohammadAG	X-Fade, can I upload an older version of a package?	18:07
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Yes, you have direct access to the queue. So you can do that.	18:08
MohammadAG	X-Fade, note the "older"	18:08
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Yeah, don't use the builder ;)	18:08
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MohammadAG	so it won't be REJECTED then?	18:08
* MohammadAG makes version 0 of community package		18:09
X-Fade	MohammadAG: I don't think there is a in your queue.	18:09
X-Fade	MohammadAG: But what would that solve?	18:09
MohammadAG	any .service file experts?	18:09
MohammadAG	X-Fade, it would allow users to see what they're upgrading, instead of the current way	18:10
X-Fade	MohammadAG: I can wipe the repo if needed.	18:10
MohammadAG	i.e install version 0 of community package, launch HAM to allow the user to update with a UI	18:10
X-Fade	MohammadAG: That won't help anything?	18:11
MohammadAG	it will, the current way involves opening a terminal and forcing installations	18:11
X-Fade	MohammadAG: The problem you have is that existing packages have been installed from another package domain.	18:11
MohammadAG	X-Fade, different problem :P	18:11
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X-Fade	MohammadAG: More important though.	18:12
MohammadAG	indeed	18:12
MohammadAG	just wondering though	18:12
X-Fade	MohammadAG: If you can't fix that, then everything else you do is useless.	18:12
MohammadAG	is there a way to launch something via DBus without having an icon?	18:12
alterego	Heh, I can decrease CPU usage by about 20% if I decrease the property animations' duration	18:13
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MohammadAG	X-Fade, what about removing Nokia's domains?	18:13
MohammadAG	if all fails of course	18:13
X-Fade	MohammadAG: No, don't do that ;)	18:13
MohammadAG	it would be really useful if HAM devs could assist us	18:14
MohammadAG	since the configuration changed from Diablo to Fremantle	18:14
X-Fade	MohammadAG: I'd find out how package domains are identified. If it is the level, then take the same number.	18:14
X-Fade	MohammadAG: We need to find out where the package->repo relation is stored.	18:15
MohammadAG	hmm, in the configuration file? :)	18:15
MohammadAG	hildon-application-manager-config dump	18:15
X-Fade	MohammadAG: But try the certified thing first.	18:15
MohammadAG	hmm, no, that's not it	18:16
MohammadAG	the latest community-ssu-enabler already has it	18:17
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MohammadAG	we need HAM's devs, or someone who can read C (properly)	18:18
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X-Fade	MohammadAG: Marius should know.	18:18
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MohammadAG	Lucas? He saw no problems with it	18:19
E0x	what i can use for fordward a call to take it in the pc when i am at home ?	18:19
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Ask him on the list, he should read it. Usually wants to help.	18:19
E0x	( asterisk install in the n900 ? )	18:19
X-Fade	MohammadAG: No, Marius Vollmer.	18:19
MohammadAG	X-Fade, http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-November/027849.html	18:19
MohammadAG	oh	18:19
E0x	i maybe i could use pulseaudio tu reroute the mic/output	18:19
E0x	?	18:19
X-Fade	MohammadAG: He designed the whole thing, so :)	18:20
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MohammadAG	X-Fade, also, one more thing, when replying to mailing lists, does something have to be set in your client's settings?	18:20
Jaffa	MohammadAG: Only the right email address which is subscribed.	18:21
MohammadAG	modest doesn't seem to work properly for that, replied to a message once and it made a new topic	18:21
Jaffa	m-vo is a helpful chap, though	18:21
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Reply to all usually works. Some clients have reply to list.	18:21
Jaffa	MohammadAG: Using what client?	18:21
MohammadAG	and gmail.com?	18:21
X-Fade	MohammadAG: reply-all works fine there.	18:21
MohammadAG	will reply then :)	18:22
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MohammadAG	Jaffa, used thunderbird for a while, then went back to webmail	18:22
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Please do, he really should know.	18:22
Jaffa	Gmail works fine for me in terms of "reply all" and not breaking the list threading.	18:22
* X-Fade uses a labs plugin to 'reply to all' by default		18:23
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MohammadAG	does thunderbird support IMAP Idle?	18:24
Aranel	My Conversations app is bugged, It's showing a weird scrollbar and touch scrolling is not working. Can someone help me about it please? Screenshot: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png Strace: http://pastebin.com/rcvvYa3r	18:24
X-Fade	bbl, dinner.	18:25
MohammadAG	Aranel, did you try yesterday's suggestions?	18:25
Aranel	MohammadAG51: gconftool, reinstalling hildon alpha/beta, reboot? all 3 of them.	18:26
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Aranel	MohammadAG51: I'm not sure about the gconftool way, there was TONS of entries :\|	18:26
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crashanddie_	there were	18:29
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Aranel	yeah, there were.	18:29
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Aranel	lol strace output makes me feel quite awkward. It just looks like some ancient language, and I don't recognize any word from that language.	18:36
jacekowski	it's just showing syscalls	18:36
psycho_oreos	at least you could say that would make you look nerdy :p	18:36
jacekowski	but i would personally add some stuff to it	18:36
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jacekowski	like showing file name as well as handle for read/close/something like that	18:37
Aranel	haha It would make me look nerdy, If I could understand anything about it, so I could make a "smart" face gesture instead of "I'm so screwed" gesture.	18:37
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Aranel	jacekowski: tried that one too (http://pastebin.com/1rCi0U6K) there's some read entries	18:38
Aranel	with really weird numbers and symbols	18:38
psycho_oreos	trust me.. you haven't been through "I'm so screwed" state :) I've visited boot loops 3 times in two days in an attempt to restore my n900 setup.. it'll become my frankenstein project in the making	18:39
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Aranel	psycho_oreos: oops. yeah It looks worse :p	18:40
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Aranel	but maybe you had an idea about what you are doing :p I'm just trying my luck to fix this issue, and I'm not lucky.	18:41
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psycho_oreos	not really, I'm tired and pissed off, looks like frankenstein doesn't want to be reborn :/ flashing for the 4th time in two days	18:46
Aranel	psycho_oreos: what exactly is wrong with it?	18:48
wmarone	have you flashed both eMMC and the rootfs?	18:48
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psycho_oreos	Aranel, shouldn't have symlinked /var/log to /opt/var/log, it caused X.org to display nothing upon rebooting.. Since then I've used dar to restore setup but that has caused device to malfunction and boot loops, then I retried copying specific directories, no dice, device rebooted automatically and now it just doesn't want to boot up.. again bootloops so now I'll have to reflash it for the 4th time and probably will have to start from scratch	18:50
svuorela	hmm... shouldn't I be ablre to update to pr1.3 from the phone itself ?	18:50
psycho_oreos	wmarone, no need, just doing rootfs only	18:50
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psycho_oreos	yes via HAM	18:50
* Aranel I'm changing my question, since nobody is able to answer it: can I track filesystem reads (which config file is opened) for an application (rtcom-messaging-ui) ?		18:51
ieatlint	lsof might be able to do it	18:51
Aranel	svuorela: you are able to do it.	18:51
wmarone	psycho_oreos: so you keep breaking your device?	18:51
Aranel	psycho_oreos: maybe you can try meego rescue initrd?	18:52
psycho_oreos	Aranel, was about to suggest lsof but that would take a snapshot rather than constant and live tracking	18:52
BCMM	Aranel: if you know which files you're interested in, inotify is simple	18:52
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psycho_oreos	wmarone, currently when its not what I want it to do	18:52
MohammadAG	hmm	18:52
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MohammadAG	Aranel, it's a CSS issue I guess	18:53
svuorela	Aranel: what do I need to do to become able to do it?	18:53
MohammadAG	not sure where rtcom-messaging-ui's CSS template is	18:53
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MohammadAG	though tmo should knwo	18:53
MohammadAG	knwo	18:53
MohammadAG	sigh	18:53
MohammadAG	know*	18:53
Aranel	nope I don't. Conversations app is loading some weird config files from somewhere, and displaying a scrollbar, messing up everything.	18:53
jacekowski	CSS?	18:53
jacekowski	it's using html for this stuff?	18:54
ieatlint	Aranel: possible to run it with strace?	18:54
Aranel	MohammadAG51: it's /usr/share/rtcom-messaging-ui/html. Tried changing them, tried getting original ones (if mine is corrupt) from my friend and copying them, tried installing mods on them. Didn't help with the scrollbar issue.	18:54
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jacekowski	strace -f rtcom-messaging-ui 2>&1 \| grep open	18:54
jacekowski	this will give you list of files it's opening	18:55
Aranel	ieatlint: done that but I cant understand anything on that output :p there's some reads and some opens, with numbers and symbols on it.	18:55
ieatlint	what jacekowski just said	18:55
Aranel	in fact, I tried that one too :\| It's not showing up all of them, for example, it's not showing up the HTML/CSS files.	18:55
Aranel	according to strace open() only 5 files opened, 2 of them are databases, 3 of them are icons/useless stuff.	18:56
ieatlint	perhaps it's accessing the info through an api, and doesn't open the files itself	18:56
Aranel	svuorela: just try upgrading via Application Manager, I guess?	18:57
svuorela	Aranel: yeah. it says no. use pc suite.	18:57
Aranel	maybe. So I want to track whole filesystem read calls, to find out which files are read when using conversations.	18:57
Aranel	svuorela: you need at least 40~ megabytes of free rootfs space and you should remove any conflicting packages.	18:58
jacekowski	no	18:58
jacekowski	not read calls	18:58
jacekowski	open calls	18:58
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jacekowski	read calls are not really as important	18:58
Aranel	oops, open calls :)	18:58
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Aranel	here's the open calls (from strace): http://pastebin.com/G30F0eKL	19:00
Aranel	It's not mentioning any UI elements, HTML/CSS files, anything. I should track all opened files for.. 20 seconds?	19:00
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svuorela	Aranel: I have around 65 M free	19:02
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jacekowski	Aranel: have you added -f to strace commandline?	19:03
Aranel	svuorela: then you should take care of conflicting packages. Mostly they are games; like brainparty,openarena etc.	19:03
Aranel	jacekowski: oh.. guess not :\|	19:03
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Aranel	jacekowski: what is the exact arguments I should add? -o , -f and -p?	19:04
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jacekowski	-f	19:04
Glaubenskrieger	hi, i have fMMS installed, and my device always choose the MMS connection, how can i change it, that the device automatically chooses the other internet connection?	19:04
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chem\|st	Glaubenskrieger: change the mode to havoc	19:05
chem\|st	in fmms	19:05
jacekowski	it would be nice to get specs for rapuyama	19:05
Glaubenskrieger	thx	19:05
jacekowski	because i'm willing to bet that rapuyama can have two data connection open at the same time	19:05
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Aranel	jacekowski: http://pastebin.com/8KQQ0yEH now some new entries added, but they don't look like config files.	19:08
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Gorroth	so, my earlier build of libnet-dev didn't go well. i accidentally submitted twice while it was building (not sure why autobuilder doesn't check for that)	19:40
Gorroth	anyway, i resubmitted an update. so, it installs correctly on the n900 now	19:41
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Gorroth	it is in extras-devel. the final step before i submit ettercap in a little while :)	19:41
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* slonopotamus yawns		19:42
Necc	idd	19:43
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javispedro	morning #maemo	19:47
* javispedro does evil laughter again		19:47
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DocScrutinizer51	lo javispedro	19:57
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Aranel	[Repost] How can I track whole filesystem open calls on Maemo?	19:59
javispedro	inotify?	19:59
javispedro	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inotify	19:59
Aranel	but I don't know which ones I should track, does it work without knowing it?	19:59
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slonopotamus	Aranel: strace on all running processes with forks follow enabled?	20:01
slonopotamus	Aranel: why you want that?	20:01
javispedro	you'd need to do quite a lot of logic to track all files, then set up inotify watches for all of them..	20:01
Aranel	slonopotamus: how can I do that? can you give me an example command?	20:01
RST38h	Moo, all	20:01
Aranel	well, my conversations app is kinda messed up because of a corrupt config file, but I don't know which one.	20:01
RST38h	javispedro, heffalump: heya	20:01
javispedro	hello RST38h	20:01
slonopotamus	RST38h: ohai	20:02
Aranel	so I'm going to track filesystem for open calls, and find out which files are opening on Conversations start-up.	20:02
SpeedEvil	strace is what you probably want	20:02
javispedro	Aranel: there's going to be like, half a billion open calls.	20:02
javispedro	Aranel: you really should try to reduce the set of processes you will be monitoring	20:03
slonopotamus	Aranel: strace -f -p <pid>	20:03
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Aranel	slonopotamus: tried that, gave me some of open calls, not all of them. (no html/css files included, or conf files)	20:03
RST38h	html/css may have been preloaded at startup	20:04
slonopotamus	Aranel: there's microb proccess running for rendering	20:04
slonopotamus	Aranel: prestarted	20:04
Aranel	I did killall rtcom-messaging-ui	20:04
Aranel	then strace'd it.	20:04
slonopotamus	Aranel: /usr/sbin/browserd -s <num> -n browserui	20:05
javispedro	"Mystery Missile Launch Seen off Calif. Coast"	20:05
slonopotamus	Aranel: that thing renders dialogs afaik	20:05
RST38h	http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/09/national/main7036716.shtml	20:05
javispedro	lol	20:05
RST38h	javispedro: shit we are reading the same rss	20:05
javispedro	RST38h: aka slashdot?	20:06
RST38h	Fucking SYCHRONOUSLY	20:06
Aranel	slonopotamus: oh, maybe I misunderstood you. Does it work with Conversations app? see: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png I want to remove that scrollbar, and It's showing up because of a config file.	20:06
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RST38h	javispedro: nah, I am no longer reading slashdot directly	20:06
javispedro	well I was =)	20:06
RST38h	javispedro: but it is in my google reader list indeed	20:06
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Gorroth	google reader is teh awesum	20:11
slonopotamus	unlimited 3g sucks battery too fast :(	20:11
RST38h	heh	20:11
RST38h	which provider, which plan?	20:11
SpeedEvil	Sue them!	20:11
SpeedEvil	It's limited by battery.	20:11
Gorroth	slonopotamus: yeah. im	20:11
SpeedEvil	That's gotta be illegal.	20:11
Gorroth	oops	20:11
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cehteh	strap a big 12V car battery on your device :)	20:12
javispedro	RST38h: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/e3gf3/a_missile_was_launched_off_the_california_coast/c14zqpm	20:12
javispedro	RST38h: see first comment	20:12
slonopotamus	RST38h: megafon, basic (128kbps for 220rubles (~$7) per month)	20:12
Gorroth	slonopotamus: yeah. i'm gonna buy one of those big ass n900 batteries to handle heavy use	20:12
slonopotamus	RST38h: they have several plans up to 7mbps for $50/month	20:13
RST38h	slonopotamus: 128kbps is eGPRS speed.	20:13
slonopotamus	RST38h: it's artificially limited	20:13
RST38h	slonopotamus: so, simplyforce your phone to 2.5g and save on battery :)	20:13
slonopotamus	RST38h: but still, $7/month	20:13
Gorroth	tmo will give me 24 hr unlimited for 1.49 usd per each day i buy it	20:14
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Gorroth	pas as you go! :)	20:14
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Gorroth	pay*	20:14
RST38h	slonopotamus: I pay $10-$15 a month for unlim speed :)	20:14
slonopotamus	RST38h: how i do that?	20:14
Gorroth	i can't type on the nOPP	20:14
Gorroth	n900!!!!	20:14
RST38h	slonopotamus: MTS Internet+ (4.25r per MB)	20:14
SpeedEvil	:)	20:14
RST38h	slonopotamus: There is an applet that lets you force phone to 2g or 3g or auto	20:14
SpeedEvil	I can type at around 25-30wpm on n900.......	20:14
Gorroth	really? you must practice on it a lot	20:15
slonopotamus	RST38h: meh, i spent around $30 when used plan with price like yours	20:15
SpeedEvil	Gorroth: my laptop died. I used it for a week	20:15
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SpeedEvil	IRCing	20:15
RST38h	slono: but then, I am not running it around the clock :)	20:15
Gorroth	ah ha	20:15
slonopotamus	RST38h: i use it around 2.5h a day	20:16
nidO	I just fire up the ole E90 when I need to type properly while mobile \o/	20:16
RST38h	slonopo: same here	20:16
Gorroth	SpeedEvil: which irc client do you use on it? i'm using irssi, but i have to keep the xterm fonts small to make it usable	20:16
SpeedEvil	xchat	20:16
Gorroth	oh, i should try that	20:16
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javispedro	"We need to know how to decompile the code to recompile for our processors because the bytecode will not be compatible as is"	20:22
* javispedro sighs		20:23
luke-jr	…	20:23
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jacekowski	that's not exactly true for arm	20:23
javispedro	I know.	20:23
javispedro	it's plain bullshit.	20:23
javispedro	that is what happens when you put tech info a thread full of lemmings.	20:24
jacekowski	where have you found it?	20:24
javispedro	xda developers	20:24
jacekowski	link	20:24
jacekowski	thing is that it's true for architectures with variable opcode size	20:24
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javispedro	... aka not ARM.	20:24
jacekowski	like x86, arm with thumb	20:24
RST38h	slono: have to note though that we have got wifi at workplace	20:25
RST38h	javispedro: source of the quote?	20:25
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jacekowski	with arm, plain bruteforce decoding of opcodes and then assembling again will work, but it has downsides, like no way to modify it	20:25
Gorroth	Vratha: hi	20:25
Vratha	hi	20:25
jacekowski	you need inteligent disassembler to do any work	20:25
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javispedro	jacekowski: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=8886936&postcount=14	20:26
* RST38h loudly wonders if anyone has heard of dynamic recompilation		20:26
Vratha	well i am also gorroth. just testing xchat on the n900	20:26
jacekowski	rotfl	20:26
jacekowski	that's bs	20:26
jacekowski	snapdragon == arm	20:26
RST38h	javispedro: are these pleasant people trying to run Snapdragon code on a Samsungor somethign? :)	20:27
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javispedro	RST38h: let's say I found the thread "by chance", and I'm quite laughing at their approach.	20:27
RST38h	javispedro: ARMv7 willrun ARMv6 code, but you still have to precheck it for system instructions	20:27
jacekowski	javispedro: bytecode is compatible, it's just instruction set is different	20:27
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RST38h	javispedro: To run ARMv7 on ARMv6 you do need code analysis	20:28
RST38h	which can be made automatic	20:28
jacekowski	not really	20:28
javispedro	and static	20:28
jacekowski	static will fail	20:28
jacekowski	static code analysis ussually fails	20:28
javispedro	jacekowski: this is a GNU/Linux system. Not some assembly developer's playground.	20:28
RST38h	javispedro: it really better be dynamic	20:29
RST38h	javispedro: but yes, you can probably do a lot of it statically	20:29
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RST38h	and cache the result	20:29
jacekowski	javispedro: disassembler have to run all possible code paths and then replace all problematic instructions with alternatives	20:29
jacekowski	javispedro: but then adresses will shift	20:30
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jacekowski	or you do more complicated stuff with codecaves	20:30
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jacekowski	that's why runtime recompilation would be the best option	20:30
javispedro	or you just trap SIGILLs and hope they do not use uxth much =)	20:31
jacekowski	yep	20:31
jacekowski	just catch illegal instructions and emulate them	20:31
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jacekowski	sort of like a virtualisation	20:32
SpeedEvil	catch illegal, emulate, and patch, so you only do it once?	20:32
jacekowski	you can't shift adresses	20:32
jacekowski	you can optimise it with lookup tables	20:33
SpeedEvil	ah	20:33
jacekowski	so it will remember	20:33
jacekowski	what is supposed to be executed there	20:33
jacekowski	so it will not have to reanalyse opcode	20:33
jacekowski	so penalty will be minimal	20:33
jacekowski	sort of like JIT compilation	20:33
javispedro	kernel entry	20:33
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javispedro	which may not acceptable for uxth	20:33
javispedro	*be	20:34
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javispedro	I'd personally just replace all instances of new opcodes with BL to emulated functions in a fixed address.	20:34
javispedro	statically, pre binary launch.	20:34
jacekowski	how do you know that it's an opcode not data?	20:35
javispedro	you can, statically.	20:35
RST38h	Folks, have you actually considered if all this stuff is worth it?	20:35
javispedro	because I'm making the assumption this is not a assembly developer's playground	20:35
RST38h	In the above case, I mean	20:35
RST38h	javispedro: wrong assumption	20:35
jacekowski	javispedro: it will not work	20:35
jacekowski	and what if program is compressed with UPX	20:36
javispedro	I know there are counter examples. why it won't work for 90% of the code?	20:36
jacekowski	or polymorphic	20:36
javispedro	is there a polymorphic or upx compressed program in the Maemo base image?	20:36
jacekowski	sort of, no	20:36
javispedro	my point.	20:36
jacekowski	fmtxd will not run with simple static analysis	20:37
RST38h	why?	20:37
jacekowski	because parts of code are unreachable	20:37
jacekowski	pointers to functions are passed to gtk and gtk will call them	20:37
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jacekowski	or dbus	20:38
jacekowski	i'm not sure	20:38
javispedro	good point. you'd need to know about all external deps.	20:38
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jacekowski	that's why runtime analysis is better	20:38
jacekowski	because you cover all scenarios	20:38
Jaffa	"statically" and "all possible code paths" is the Halting Problem.	20:38
javispedro	I know.	20:38
jacekowski	and you don't have to mess up with sections	20:38
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javispedro	you can always fsck up any static analysis	20:39
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javispedro	ie for ex. you could start doing arithmethic with function pointers.	20:40
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javispedro	now the question would be a ) who does that? b ) does the compiler insert code that might do that in predictable fashion?	20:40
javispedro	so, just trap SIGILLs :)	20:41
jacekowski	exactly	20:41
jacekowski	trap sigills, emulate and run	20:41
jacekowski	IDA is one of the best static analysis tools	20:41
jacekowski	and still fails quite often	20:42
jacekowski	because gcc tends to mix data with code and sometimes you end up with function pointers somewhere in data section	20:43
jacekowski	like nolo for example	20:43
* javispedro ponders		20:43
javispedro	when IDA fails to distinguish text/data its usually trivially visible to human eye	20:44
javispedro	there has to be some kind of analysis that can do that too.	20:44
javispedro	should make for a nice paper (hint =) )	20:44
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jacekowski	you will always have cases when that fails	20:44
javispedro	ofc, because I was thinking statistical	20:45
jacekowski	with normal code ida probably cover over 90% of code correctly	20:45
javispedro	but, take a conservative approach	20:45
jacekowski	but then you still have 10% that can be code or data	20:45
javispedro	which you then emulate.	20:45
jacekowski	and as long as it's not 100% that's done correctly you can't do it	20:45
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jacekowski	but then you can never be sure if you don't have 1% of data that was treated as a code	20:46
jacekowski	and will cause your program to fail	20:46
* javispedro also notes that ELF may have information to help, for ex. position of pools, etc. at least with debug symbols.		20:46
jacekowski	you have to be 100% sure that you will not have false positives	20:47
trumee	anybody using pptp on N900?	20:47
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trumee	i want to add/delete routes on N900. I can do "/sbin/route add -net 192.58.150.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 dev ppp0" in ip-up.d, but how do delete this route in ip-down.d ?	20:48
jacekowski	trumee: man route	20:48
trumee	basically, instead of routing everthing through the tunnel, i only want to route specific ip address.	20:48
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X-Fade	mece: autobuilder doesn't set anything specific for -O2 builds.	20:51
trumee	the default behaviour on N900 is to route everything through ppp0, how do i disable that first?	20:51
mece	X-Fade, I see. but howcome it builds with -O2 when scratchbox doesn't?	20:51
mece	X-Fade, I need -O0 btw. -O2 segfaults	20:52
X-Fade	mece: Can be because we use the squeeze devkit.	20:52
javispedro	mece: are you using CFLAGS in your rules or Makefile but not setting them in your rules file?	20:52
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javispedro	mece: for ex. autoconf might be reading that env var.	20:53
mece	javispedro, I don't know, I'll check. I'm in the middle of reinstalling scratchbox now though.	20:53
javispedro	mece: next package ensure to set the CFLAGS you want in rules file.	20:53
mece	javispedro, so what should I do to make -O0 stick?	20:53
mece	javispedro, that's what I tried but it didn't seem to work.	20:54
javispedro	package name?	20:54
mece	javispedro, wesnoth	20:54
mece	javispedro, I've been at this for several occasions, but haven't gotten it fixed.	20:54
javispedro	328MiB!!	20:54
javispedro	how do you get this into the autobuilder? lol :)	20:55
X-Fade	lol, yeah a monster.	20:55
mece	it's not that big	20:55
mece	3Mb or so.	20:55
javispedro	Need to get 328MB of source archives.	20:55
mece	wesnoth-data	20:55
mece	is big	20:55
javispedro	I guess wesnoth-data's source package is wesnoth	20:55
mece	and I can't get that one into the autobuilder. I don't know how it originally got there.	20:55
mece	I wasn't the original maintainer	20:56
javispedro	aaa	20:56
mece	I did some workarounds to make it work with the existing data package.	20:56
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javispedro	when did you send it to autobuilder? not in november?	20:57
javispedro	https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/extras-cauldron-builds/2010-November/thread.html	20:57
mece	javispedro, ages ago	20:57
mece	javispedro, I didn't want to send new ones because they all segfaulted	20:58
javispedro	mece: I mean, the one that failed to built or that built with -O2?	20:58
mece	javispedro, I put up a deb I built in sb on my own website so that people could play it.	20:58
mece	javispedro, it builds fine, and uses -O2, and segfaults on launch	20:58
mece	javispedro, in sb it builds without -O2 and works fine.	20:59
javispedro	mece: are you on diablo btw?	20:59
mece	javispedro, fremantle	20:59
mece	diablo works	20:59
mece	afaik	20:59
javispedro	weird, I thought the frementle toolchain had way less bugs.	20:59
mece	javispedro, not sure if it's a bug.	21:00
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javispedro	unfortunately I can only find wesnoth packages uploaded by mikkov in logs... so can't check.	21:00
mece	ooh	21:00
Venemo_N900	hi	21:00
mece	well no problems then	21:00
mece	:D	21:00
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: ping	21:00
mece	forget everything	21:00
javispedro	mece: wouldn't you remember approximately when you uploaded it?	21:00
javispedro	mece: ah well, ok.	21:00
mece	I never a mail about him getting maintainer rights, so I figured he forgot about it or didn't have time.	21:01
javispedro	last upload by him was in september seems	21:01
mece	s/never a/never got a/	21:01
infobot	mece meant: I never got a mail about him getting maintainer rights, so I figured he forgot about it or didn't have time.	21:01
mece	well then I guess it's fixed.	21:01
mece	javispedro, since he knows his stuff.	21:02
javispedro	mece: this is one such package uploaded by him https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/wesnoth_1.8.4-0maemo1/	21:02
mece	oo nice he upgraded to 1.8.4 :)	21:02
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mece	interesting. he's still not listed as a maintainer...	21:04
* Noobmonk3y grumbles		21:05
nidO	whassup.	21:07
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* crashanddie wonders if he should go get CoD or not		21:09
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MohammadAG	Venemo_N900, pong, xchat isn't highlighting me	21:10
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: sry	21:10
MohammadAG	crashanddie, if you do, tell me how it compares to MW2	21:10
crashanddie	well	21:10
crashanddie	MW2 was awesome	21:10
crashanddie	it's going to be pretty hard to beat	21:11
MohammadAG	indeed, and anything by tryearch isn't	21:11
Aranel	My Conversations app is bugged, It's showing a weird scrollbar and touch scrolling is not working. Can someone help me about it please? Screenshot: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png - I know that It's somehow related to browserd (It generates those messaging UI's) but I don't know how to make it work.	21:11
MohammadAG	Venemo_N900, sorry about what? anyways, wassup :P	21:11
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jacktheripper	hello, my LED in the corner doesn't light up anymore (even after removing the battery). Was setting it to 'heartbeat' as long as the n900 was on a bad idea ?	21:13
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nidO	did you mess with the led's config manually?	21:14
jacktheripper	yeah. But it worked after that. It stopped working without any change	21:15
jacktheripper	or after a theme change.	21:15
sivang	timeless: taking pictures reminded :)	21:16
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corecode	oh heh 1.3	21:18
corecode	when did that come out	21:18
nidO	couple of weeks ago	21:18
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sivang	timeless: anything interesting regarding the talk? I don't have to go overthe whole backlog from the morning, sorry was in a work event so was not online.	21:19
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sivang	timeless: I notedthat MSDN docs are good, even compared to Qt ones.	21:20
* sivang goes back to some previous commitments.		21:20
sivang	bbl	21:20
javispedro	sivang: btw, I just note that I missed the irc logs link in my message	21:21
javispedro	sivang: but I'm sure you can look it up	21:21
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jacktheripper	join #linux	21:22
sivang	javispedro: you sent a mesage?	21:22
jacktheripper	sorry for that xD	21:22
javispedro	sivang: to the ml, long ago.	21:22
sivang	sorry, I was away al the day	21:23
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sivang	javispedro: oh, that's okay- you pasted there the transcript for the chat.	21:23
sivang	javispedro: which is aready in a specia google notes for myself to be compiled into my part of the slides	21:23
sivang	:)	21:23
javispedro	sivang: not entirely, though :)	21:23
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sivang	javispedro: ah, okay - so if you can get the link, that\d be grea.t	21:24
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* sivang notes he needs a new laptop. but not an MBP		21:24
sivang	re: typing mistakes	21:24
mr_chris	Is this the right place for help with things Maemo related or is this just a general discussion area?	21:24
sivang	mr_chris: it is, just ask	21:24
crashanddie	MohammadAG: ping	21:24
MohammadAG	pong	21:25
chem\|st	is there anything to tell to reread configs from if-pre-up and if-post-down?	21:25
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sivang	chem\|st: up and down the interface perhaps?	21:26
sivang	ifup/ifdown	21:26
chem\|st	sivang: well did that...	21:26
mr_chris	Running gpxview on an n810. I'm trying to figure out how to purge its local database. Uninstalling doesn't do it. I've looked through the entire filesystem with find as root for anything gpx or gpxview related and still can't see to find it.	21:26
sivang	mr_chris: sorry for being obvious, you tred sudo aptget remove --purge?	21:26
crashanddie	mr_chris: .gpxview?	21:27
sivang	mr_chris: but if it's tuf is under home/$user/. dot dir then it don't get purged through the paackage	21:27
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chem\|st	MohammadAG: may I have a working link to your KR.sh?	21:28
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mr_chris	sivang: Yes. I also tried dpkg --purge	21:28
mr_chris	crashanddie: That's the first thing I looked for.	21:29
mr_chris	sivang: You're right. Not there and therefore can't be purged.	21:29
MohammadAG	chem\|st, http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/public/maemo/KR.sh	21:29
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chem\|st	ty	21:29
javispedro	sivang: from http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-27.log.html#t2010-10-27T18:12:26 onwards	21:29
crashanddie	mr_chris: strace it, see which files it opens	21:29
javispedro	sivang: also http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-28.log.html#t2010-10-28T01:10:15	21:30
mr_chris	crashanddie: I'll give that a try. Thanks.	21:30
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sivang	mr_chris: not in the . dot dir of the user?	21:31
mr_chris	sivang: It is not.	21:31
ieatlint	does anyone else think it's a bad sign when an intro to qt on symbian "hello world" talk is scheduled to be 80min long :(	21:31
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sivang	mr_chris: strace it, like crashanddie said	21:32
mr_chris	Learning how to use strace. This should come in handy later.	21:32
sivang	or dtrace it for open files or something	21:32
sivang	mr_chris: it is very much	21:32
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jacekowski	dtrace?	21:33
jacekowski	there is no dtrace for linux	21:33
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sivang	isn't there on centos?	21:33
sivang	hmm	21:33
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* sivang is confused		21:33
jacekowski	that's barely working something behaving like dtrace	21:33
jacekowski	not direct port	21:34
sivang	ah okay, mascurading is the dtrace binary?	21:34
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johnsq	Hi	21:35
jacekowski	well, in principle it's supposed to be as compatible with true dtrace as possible	21:35
sivang	that's the systap thingy?	21:35
jacekowski	but it's not direct port	21:35
jacekowski	no	21:35
jacekowski	systemtap is linux dtrace like thing	21:35
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sivang	okey	21:36
sivang	noted	21:36
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kkal	shall there be a new maemo device soon?	21:36
kkal	maemo/meego	21:36
chem\|st	kkal: no	21:36
kkal	:(	21:36
jacktheripper	is it possible to run a .desktop file from terminal ?	21:37
kkal	I shall ask again in 1 year	21:37
kkal	farewell	21:37
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chem\|st	lol	21:37
jacktheripper	XD	21:37
chem\|st	jacktheripper: why not run the command itself?	21:37
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jacekowski	jacktheripper: nope	21:38
jacktheripper	chem\|st, it has this -> "StartupWMClass" in the desktop file, which makes it segfault when run from terminal.	21:38
jacktheripper	or so I understand	21:38
jacktheripper	it's HealthCheck.	21:38
jacekowski	jacktheripper: i suppose it would be possible to use binformat misc to have a nice transparent parser for them	21:39
sivang	javispedro: thanks	21:39
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BluesLee	DocScrutinizer: ping	21:39
jacktheripper	jacekowski, sorry, don't get you.	21:40
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jacekowski	jacktheripper: simple answer, no	21:41
jacktheripper	heh, thanks then. I'll find a way to imitate what that setting does.	21:42
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jacekowski	jacktheripper: complicated, yes but you would have to create parser and tell kernel to use it when required	21:43
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jacktheripper	what does clicking a shortcut trigger then ? there must already be a ready parser.	21:44
jacekowski	because your gui has a parser and understands this kind of files	21:45
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DocScrutinizer	BluesLee: pong	21:45
jacekowski	but that parser is a part of your GUI/DE/whatever	21:45
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jacekowski	not usable by kernel	21:45
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mr_chris	I think I figured it out.	21:47
mr_chris	Memory.	21:47
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mr_chris	I think it temporarily stores its local settings in RAM. When I remove and readd the application it still tries to find previously imported caches. When I reset the tablet they are all cleared.	21:47
DocScrutinizer	jacktheripper: you tried http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/DBUS#dbus-send-launch-application ?	21:48
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trumee	is there any way to check if i am on gprs0 or wifi using commandline?	21:48
trumee	i want to use that info in a shell script	21:48
jacktheripper	DocScrutinizer, great! thanks.	21:49
crashanddie	mr_chris: wait, what?	21:49
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crashanddie	trumee: parse ifconfig	21:49
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: i don't think it's what he needs	21:49
crashanddie	trumee: or talk to ICD2	21:49
BluesLee	DocScrutinizer: first of all, thank you and the others for your efforts on usb host	21:49
BluesLee	DocScrutinizer: someone on tmo asked if the n8 nokia usb otg cable will work with the n900, i found no answer in the thread	21:50
jacekowski	BluesLee: yes and no	21:50
luke-jr	ip route get 4.2.2.2	21:50
DocScrutinizer	BluesLee: nope it won't	21:50
BugBlue	trumee: route -n	21:50
BluesLee	:-)	21:50
luke-jr	why all the obsolete cmds?	21:50
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: isn't that normal microusb to A female?	21:50
DocScrutinizer	it's micro-B	21:51
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BugBlue	becauze n900 maemo haz not installed that iproute2-utilz	21:51
trumee	crashanddie: wc -l `ifconfig \|grep wlan0` gives warning because of spaces	21:51
DocScrutinizer	OTG adapter has micro-A plug	21:51
luke-jr	/sbin/ip route get 4.2.2.2 \| perl -nle 'm/dev (\w+)/&&print $1'	21:51
luke-jr	BugBlue: :O	21:51
Noobmonk3y	lcuk: read your tweets ;)	21:52
DocScrutinizer	BluesLee: Nokia switched N900 receptacle from micro-AB (like on N8x0) to micro-B when they decided N900 won't support OTG	21:52
crashanddie	Noobmonk3y: you all good Qt side now?	21:52
mr_chris	crashanddie: As weird as it sounds that seems to be the case. I'm coming up with a way to reproduce the results.	21:52
trumee	luke-jr: yeah, that would work for me. thanks.	21:52
trumee	luke-jr: however, if the 4.2.2.2 ip address is not reachable, will that still work?	21:52
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DocScrutinizer	BluesLee: you might make it fit, if you care and dare. Just file off the surplus metal of the rim	21:53
DocScrutinizer	onb adapter	21:53
luke-jr	trumee: depends on if it's locally unreachable, or if it'd be an outside routing issue	21:53
jacktheripper	DocScrutinizer, actually, it wasn't exactly what I need. I need to investigate the output of an application that can only be launched from its .desktop. The dbus message doesn't show me the output.	21:53
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luke-jr	trumee: that is, it will fail if the local kernel says "I don't have a route"	21:53
luke-jr	but work if the local kernel would xmit it	21:53
trumee	luke-jr: ah. i see.	21:53
DocScrutinizer	jacktheripper: there's no app that "can only be launched from its .desktop"	21:54
jacktheripper	DocScrutinizer, it has this parameter it its desktop file -> "StartupWMClass"	21:54
DocScrutinizer	jacktheripper: you might want to make sure you're the right user, and maybe also use run-standalone.sh	21:54
DocScrutinizer	hmm, no idea about that one	21:55
javispedro	jacktheripper: ignore it	21:55
mr_chris	The only thing that gpxview seems to leave behind is /var/lib/gconf/apps/gpxview. I installed gpxview, ran it and imported some geocaches. I then uninstalled it and removed /var/lib/gconf/apps/gpxview. After that I reinstalled it, opened it and saw the cache list still there.	21:55
mr_chris	I rebooted the tablet and they were gone.	21:55
javispedro	jacktheripper: concentrace on Exec= line	21:55
javispedro	oh, concentrace, nice word.	21:55
DocScrutinizer	:-D	21:55
sivang	mr_chris: some process loked them	21:56
jacktheripper	I do what it does, but the app segfaults mid way.	21:56
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trumee	luke-jr: my N900 sip problem sucks very much less now.	21:56
sivang	mr_chris: in some unices, a file is not deleted even after you've deleted it until all references to it are gone	21:56
DocScrutinizer	check user and run-standalone.sh	21:56
jacktheripper	it's HealthCheck btw	21:56
luke-jr	trumee: cool. how?	21:56
DocScrutinizer	aka environment	21:56
mr_chris	sivang: I see.	21:56
mr_chris	Thanks everyone.	21:56
DocScrutinizer	jacktheripper: so ~lart Noobmonk3y	21:57
trumee	luke-jr: turned out running a 32 bit OS on a 64bit cpu is not a good idea.	21:57
DocScrutinizer	:-D	21:57
luke-jr	trumee: O.o?	21:57
jacktheripper	hahaha	21:57
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trumee	luke-jr: seems there are timing issues because of that. all sip clients can deal with it but it breaks N900	21:57
jacktheripper	run-standalone works! no need to ~lart anyone :D	21:57
DocScrutinizer	jacktheripper: see javispedro ^^^ - I'm not aware of anything that makes an app "run from .desktop only"	21:58
trumee	luke-jr: i now have a gentoo amd64 running and it behaves much better now. Also, Olivier Crete gave me some gstreamer binaries which have helped.	21:58
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: well. there are a few hidden things, but are uncommon.	21:58
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javispedro	DocScrutinizer: for ex. you could put a fake Exec= in .desktop knowing that the launcher will use d-bus activation.	21:59
DocScrutinizer	yep	21:59
DocScrutinizer	or just check PPID in your app	21:59
* sivang goes to play with nodeload		21:59
sivang	javispedro: thanks again, btw there are more interesting points in the chat logs.	21:59
javispedro	also, d-bus puts a few extra env vars	21:59
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javispedro	sivang: :) good luck!	22:00
DocScrutinizer	that's what run-standalone is for afaik	22:00
DocScrutinizer	create proper env	22:00
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: no, some more vars (for ex. the service name that caused your binary to be exec'd)	22:00
DocScrutinizer	hmm, yes. All this are "flags" but no prerequisites for using any special function	22:01
DocScrutinizer	aiui	22:01
sivang	javispedro: thanks, hope it'll go well, you said you might be in the audience right?	22:01
DocScrutinizer	you could test for the flags in your app	22:01
javispedro	sivang: yep	22:01
sivang	great, now really going back to finish my stress testing with nodeload commitments.	22:02
sivang	cheer all, laters.	22:02
javispedro	sivang: don't make speak very much though, my pronunciation sucks :)	22:02
BluesLee	DocScrutinizer: i will get me a female2female adapter first	22:02
javispedro	*me	22:02
sivang	javispedro: me too, am not a native speaker :)	22:02
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DocScrutinizer	BluesLee: sure bet	22:02
sivang	BluesLee: females?	22:02
* sivang did not just say that.		22:02
BluesLee	sivang: yes, two of them	22:02
DocScrutinizer	sivang: dykes	22:03
* sivang refrains from respondingdue to PG13		22:03
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sivang	I should find a girl friend sometime soon, this is the sign :-)	22:03
sivang	anyway, nodejs is calling	22:03
javispedro	cya	22:03
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DocScrutinizer	sivang: another word for this is "gender changer" :-P	22:04
sivang	LOL	22:04
sivang	heh	22:04
* sivang -> out		22:04
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crashanddie	MohammadAG: knows a lot about gender changers	22:04
javispedro	oh	22:05
crashanddie	s/://	22:05
infobot	crashanddie meant: MohammadAG knows a lot about gender changers	22:05
javispedro	so the FreeRunner also had a lis302dl	22:05
javispedro	why didn't Nokia reuse the existing driver then? :)	22:05
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DocScrutinizer	while we're at it: how would I teach xchat to paste last nick on pressing ""tab"" on an empty input line?	22:05
DocScrutinizer	s/last/least recently used	22:06
MohammadAG	crashanddie, http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2646, and fu :P	22:06
crashanddie	least recently used?	22:06
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: no F'ng clue	22:06
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: I'm not convinced our driver was better than Nokia's	22:07
javispedro	ah.	22:07
andax	good question which i ask myself too, DocScrutinizer, and how to "emulate" Function keys :)	22:07
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: now I typed >>cra<tab>now I...<<	22:07
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: and now I typed >><tab>and now...<<	22:08
crashanddie	heh	22:08
crashanddie	macIrssi does it	22:08
crashanddie	buy a mac :P	22:08
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andax	DocScrutinizer: maybe its easier with irssi than with xchat	22:09
* luke-jr ordered 200 lbs of baby formula online		22:09
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DocScrutinizer	I'm not going to switch to irssi for that feature	22:09
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Noobmonk3y	19:57 <DocScrutinizer> jacktheripper: so ~lart Noobmonk3y - did i miss something?	22:09
DocScrutinizer	WTF is "baby formula"	22:09
dRbiG	crashanddie: you don't need to by a mac to have irssi :P	22:09
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: are you serious?	22:10
DocScrutinizer	Noobmonk3y: not really	22:10
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Noobmonk3y	LOL FAIR ENOUGH :p	22:10
Noobmonk3y	ffs caps	22:10
MohammadAG	~lart Noobmonk3y	22:10
* infobot nukes Noobmonk3y with a single large nuke		22:10
DocScrutinizer	Noobmonk3y: except of course some nice spanking maybe - if you like that :-D	22:11
javispedro	ascsiiiiiiiiifeeeeeeeeqjffffffffffgvenwf	22:11
javispedro	... oops.	22:11
RST38h	http://gizmodo.com/5685499/were-running-out-of-chocolate	22:11
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: muhaha	22:11
RST38h	forgetoil and rare earths	22:11
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: http://forum.xchat.org/viewtopic.php?t=1098	22:11
Noobmonk3y	lol!	22:11
Noobmonk3y	spanking is good	22:11
mece	crashanddie, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!	22:12
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: I'm serious like Mr. Spok	22:12
* mece runs to buy chocolate		22:12
andax	dRbiG: yeah, irssi is in the maemo repos but irssi needs more getting used to, compared to xchat	22:12
crashanddie	mece: what?	22:12
mece	oops	22:12
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: … is that yes or no?	22:12
mece	I meant RST38h	22:12
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: obviously a "yes"	22:13
dRbiG	andax: 'getting used to' depends very much on where you come from :)	22:13
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: it's what babies eat when they don't have boobs	22:13
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: though I'm answering on a general basis wrt me always being serious - without any idea what's been your particular question referring to	22:14
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: aaah	22:14
luke-jr	and people say I grew up secluded…	22:14
javispedro	well, it's not a term you'd usually seen on a tech context.	22:15
DocScrutinizer	I grew up in a german speaking environment	22:15
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javispedro	which means that people who learnt english in tech contexts..	22:15
DocScrutinizer	exactly	22:16
javispedro	(or mislearnt english, as in the case of javispedro)	22:16
andax	dRbiG: i dont know what you mean, or does it relate to restricted translations of irssi manuals? :)	22:16
luke-jr	lol	22:17
luke-jr	so what do they call it in German?	22:17
DocScrutinizer	I always used the english lessons at school to read my "Byte" mag	22:17
dRbiG	andax: i mean that i've been using text based clients for like 13 years - for me i'd need time to actually get used to xchat ;p	22:17
DocScrutinizer	o/ --> Dr.House	22:18
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: so what do they call it in German?	22:18
dRbiG	irssi is the client to use, though i still see some memory leaks after few weeks of keeping it running	22:18
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luke-jr	dRbiG: boo irssi	22:19
luke-jr	and anything else GTK-related	22:19
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dRbiG	irssi is not grk-related	22:19
luke-jr	it is	22:19
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javispedro	luke-jr: at least in spanish one would say something along the lines of "motherly" milk.	22:20
dRbiG	just as much as bash is gtk-related	22:20
luke-jr	dRbiG: no, BASH doesn't have GTK dependencies	22:20
luke-jr	irssi does	22:20
dRbiG	luke-jr: mine doesn't :)	22:20
crashanddie	luke-jr: not really. Irssi was text-only to start with, there are gtk/gnome-enabled forks, but it really doesn't depend on GTK.	22:20
dRbiG	exactly	22:21
MohammadAG	Depends: libc6 (>= 2.7), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0), libncurses5 (>= 5.6+20071006-3), libperl5.10 (>= 5.10.1), libssl0.9.8 (>= 0.9.8k-1), perl (>= 5.10.1-12ubuntu1), perlapi-5.10.1, perl-base (>= 5.8.1)	22:21
javispedro	too new stuff for fremantle.	22:21
luke-jr	even text-only irssi depends on GTK	22:21
luke-jr	see MohammadAG's paste ☺	22:21
dRbiG	on maemo, right?	22:21
luke-jr	on all OS	22:21
crashanddie	erhm...	22:22
andax	dRbiG: i sometimes used irssi since ~5 years, most time inside screen via ssh connection, so it did run 24/7 :) first irc app i used was mIRC on windoze	22:22
crashanddie	what there depends on GTK?	22:22
crashanddie	luke-jr: nothing there is GTK	22:22
luke-jr	libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0)	22:22
MohammadAG	luke-jr, glib isn't gtk	22:22
crashanddie	that's the glib	22:22
luke-jr	is	22:22
dRbiG	gettext-0.18.1.1 glib-2.24.2 libiconv-1.13.1_1 pcre-8.10 perl-5.10.1_3 pkg-config-0.25_1 python26-2.6.6	22:22
crashanddie	has nothing to do with gtk	22:22
dRbiG	no gtk, sorry	22:22
dRbiG	no libc either	22:22
dRbiG	ok, glib does for it	22:22
luke-jr	glib is the core of GTK	22:22
crashanddie	no, it's just a C library	22:23
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visz	is GTK not done with C then?	22:23
Noobmonk3y	MohammadAG: poooooooooooo	22:23
crashanddie	it's like saying that x depends on linux because it uses the libc6 -- they're both GNU, and have a common history, but one isn't the other.	22:23
javispedro	while on this topic	22:23
visz	sorry	22:23
luke-jr	libc6 isn't GNU	22:23
dRbiG	or like saying that bash depends on x 'cause you can run it in xterm	22:23
luke-jr	so Qt Core isn't Qt?	22:24
javispedro	luke-jr: glib is hardly the core of Gtk+	22:24
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javispedro	luke-jr: in fact, it is as much the core of Gtk+ as it is the core of Qt Core.	22:24
javispedro	luke-jr: as Qt Core uses glib.	22:24
luke-jr	javispedro: not my Qt Core	22:24
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javispedro	luke-jr: I hate you.	22:25
javispedro	;)	22:25
RST38h	javispedro: ?	22:25
dRbiG	luke-jr: if you said that glib is a part of gnome then yes	22:25
dRbiG	it is	22:25
luke-jr	GTK/GNOME	22:25
luke-jr	same crap	22:25
crashanddie	luke-jr: sometimes you can be really insightful, sometimes you can be a bloody stuck up troll.	22:25
kerio	quite different crap	22:25
kerio	gtk brought us sylpheed	22:25
kerio	which is a kickass mail client	22:25
kerio	gnome brought us evolution	22:25
kerio	which is... yeah	22:25
dRbiG	hehe, if you don't like it don't use it :)	22:25
MohammadAG	while pr1.3 brought us world peace	22:26
* javispedro is actually starting to become a fan of glib, specially the part where it standardizes main loops		22:26
luke-jr	dRbiG: I don't.	22:26
luke-jr	javispedro: Qt Core already did that	22:26
javispedro	which means that a plugin author can usually hook with the glib main loop instead of doing horrible hacks.	22:26
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javispedro	luke-jr: but Qt Core >= glib	22:26
javispedro	in fac,	22:26
javispedro	>>>>>	22:26
luke-jr	exactly.	22:26
javispedro	pure glib is still quite small (no gobject, etc.)	22:26
RST38h	javispedro: snap out of it, quick	22:26
javispedro	virtually no startup penalty.	22:27
dRbiG	and no dependencies on any other gnome/gtk stuff	22:27
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* luke-jr has glib masked		22:27
crashanddie	luke-jr: also, libc6 is gnu.	22:28
luke-jr	crashanddie: libc6 is part of the C standard	22:28
luke-jr	AFAIK	22:28
javispedro	RST38h: makes some of my work easier if I can assume that the binary runs a glib mainloop	22:28
crashanddie	no, libc6 is the shortname for libc.so.6.x	22:28
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crashanddie	which is provided by the GNU C Library	22:28
dRbiG	what a pointless discussion :)	22:29
luke-jr	or some other libc6 implementation	22:29
javispedro	luke-jr: s/6//	22:29
luke-jr	my 1 year old is trying to modify my 1 month old's carseat	22:29
andax	There are poppler libs in maemo repos, so why not poppler utils? o_O	22:29
andax	I need pdftotext from poppler-utils to see oversized pdf files	22:30
crashanddie	andax: most probably because noone didn't need them?	22:30
luke-jr	oversized PDF files are, in my experience, bitmaps :P	22:30
crashanddie	english fail	22:30
luke-jr	NO U	22:31
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andax	i need them badly, pdftotext is also a quasi dependency of mc which is also provided	22:31
dRbiG	no, it's creative grammar	22:31
crashanddie	luke-jr: yes, i failed english... "noone didn't need them"	22:31
javispedro	creative grammar you say!	22:32
luke-jr	lol	22:32
luke-jr	time for me to change diapers and take kiddos outside	22:32
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dRbiG	it is funny to see that there are so many ways to screw a language that is so simple	22:32
javispedro	a human-evolved language is not simple by definition.	22:33
andax	crashanddie: i cant use the preselected pdf thingie, most gui linux pdf viewers have bugs like hell, i always used plain old xpdf instead	22:33
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dRbiG	javispedro: simple as in compared to other human-evolved languages	22:34
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andax	crashanddie: and pdftotext is even less ressource hungry than xpdf	22:34
andax	which means its also faster	22:34
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crashanddie	you seem to believe I would be able to help	22:34
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andax	not really but its hopeless anyway :)	22:34
crashanddie	but unless someone decides to port the apps	22:34
crashanddie	you're SOL	22:35
luke-jr	andax: Okular works awesome	22:35
luke-jr	crashanddie: most of the apps are simply shell script wrappers around gs :P	22:36
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javispedro	btw	22:36
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javispedro	hm.. was going to ask a stupid question.	22:37
dRbiG	go on! :)	22:38
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javispedro	I won't tell the question, but the answer was "the C Preprocessor".	22:38
dRbiG	if one got an answer - is the question still there?	22:39
lolcat	Can I have noip on my phone?	22:40
andax	let me guess... the question would be something like "who compiles that stuff?"	22:40
javispedro	andax: no.	22:40
dRbiG	so many questions, so little time	22:40
javispedro	the question was "assume I'm a propietary software developer. I have some closed source code base here. I want to release it under the GPL, at least, the parts I am able to. I've #ifdef'd out the parts I cannot, and a partially functioning binary builds. Is there a tool that would remove the #ifdef'd out parts before publishing the code?".	22:41
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crashanddie	javispedro: only if you don't use includes	22:42
dRbiG	ee, in such case you'd build your prop soft as a loadable libarary	22:43
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crashanddie	javispedro: if you use the preprocessor-only switch on GCC, you'll get 250k lines of code in every file	22:43
andax	javispedro: i thought software code is enough confusing as it is but there really exist obfuscator apps	22:43
nidO	lolcat: if you write a client for their service, yes	22:44
javispedro	crashanddie: hm. good point.	22:44
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* MohammadAG got involved in too much stuff :/		22:44
crashanddie	javispedro: though, a quick perl script can take care of that	22:44
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Jaizuke	Hey everyone	22:45
javispedro	the hardest part of it being nested ifdefs	22:46
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crashanddie	javispedro: I'm not talking about ifdefs	22:46
* javispedro hoped he needn't write yet another parser		22:46
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crashanddie	javispedro: just simple ### start opensource	22:46
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javispedro	crashanddie: nice idea, thanks	22:47
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crashanddie	javispedro: I'm using that technique for my installer script, but the other way around. I have a specific tag in my shell script in which I dump the base64 of my binaries/libraries	22:48
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lucent	is there much new development in the maemo kernel for N900 target, versus say meego kernel for N900? I'm thinking in terms of development for the wireless (wifi, bluetooth) stack?	22:48
dRbiG	base64, what a waste of space-time	22:48
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lucent	also interested, any efforts to re-implement closed source blobs	22:49
crashanddie	though, in the long run, you're probably better off having a specific library that you'd open source completely, and use with your proprietary app	22:49
dRbiG	crashanddie: or other way around	22:49
javispedro	it would be opposite; most of it is open.	22:49
dRbiG	exactly	22:49
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javispedro	so I'd need to fill the executable with suspicious looking hooks.	22:50
javispedro	not good.	22:50
crashanddie	oh, well, whatever :)	22:50
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javispedro	MohammadAG: ah, the "too much work to do" syndrome.	22:52
javispedro	MohammadAG: try not to get burn	22:52
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MohammadAG	how? I don't have any headphones to listen to shit properly while I'm doing what I'm doing :P	22:53
MohammadAG	and in a shitty country like this, you can't get a BH-505	22:53
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javispedro	who wants that. wired headphones ftw.	22:54
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crashanddie	MohammadAG: you want headphones for christmas?	22:54
X-Fade	MohammadAG: We should be able to get you one if you really want it. Post packages aren't that expensive.	22:54
MohammadAG	I'd settle for a bike crashanddie :P	22:55
crashanddie	piss off	22:55
MohammadAG	xD	22:55
crashanddie	that's like a few thousand difference :P	22:55
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luke-jr	lol	22:55
MohammadAG	X-Fade, I can buy it off ebay I suppose, but I hate waiting for delivery	22:55
MohammadAG	ironically, I've been looking for one here in IL since june	22:56
luke-jr	you'll wait forever if you don't :p	22:56
X-Fade	That headset is about 50 eur here.	22:56
MohammadAG	my point exactly	22:56
MohammadAG	and 50 bucks on ebay, shipped from hong kong (why is everything from there nowadays?)	22:56
MohammadAG	funny thing is, I went to a Nokia store in JO during summer, and got a weird answer	22:56
X-Fade	Is it genuine or a copy? :)	22:56
andax	luke-jr: can you do speed reading with okular?	22:56
luke-jr	andax: wtf is that	22:57
MohammadAG	"people buy chinese knock offs, why do you want a BH-505"	22:57
MohammadAG	official Nokia store ^	22:57
javispedro	heh.	22:57
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andax	luke-jr: i mean holding down the space key and see every page for some milliseconds	22:57
luke-jr	…	22:57
luke-jr	so wasting CPU time for nothing?	22:58
javispedro	luke-jr: do you have a shortcut for the unicode ellipsis character?	22:58
luke-jr	yes, it's called . thrice	22:58
MohammadAG	X-Fade, genuine I suppose, official price is 60 bucks I think	22:58
javispedro	lunch time. cya	22:58
luke-jr	☺	22:58
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andax	nomis, why? sometimes its nice to overfly a document without reading it completely	22:59
luke-jr	…	22:59
MohammadAG	X-Fade, there's a US forwarding service by the post office here, that's how I got my N900	22:59
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Price doesn't say anything when buying in HK :)	22:59
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MohammadAG	annoying thing about them would be paying for customs BEFORE it leaves the US	22:59
MohammadAG	so I had to pay 34% of the $530 when I got my N900 :(	22:59
X-Fade	MohammadAG: They can also sell you their cheap shit for a high price :)	23:00
MohammadAG	actually, before I got it, by a week	23:00
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MohammadAG	X-Fade, heh, even trusted sellers? :P	23:00
crashanddie	…	23:00
nomis	andax: xchat's autocompletion is stupid... :-)	23:00
MohammadAG	I'll see about it after the holidays though	23:00
MohammadAG	local holidays that is, not christmas	23:01
crashanddie	∆	23:01
crashanddie	∆ ∆	23:01
* nomis relurks		23:01
X-Fade	Yes, HK is always a gamble ;)	23:01
andax	nomi: yes, pardon, it was meant for luke-jr :)	23:01
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trumee	anybody has Page Up showing history in xterm. I placed a .inputrc but doesnt seem to make any difference	23:08
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* Noobmonk3y blames lcuk		23:12
kerio	crashanddie: what	23:12
trumee	nobody?	23:12
kerio	that's not a triforce	23:12
lucent	crashanddie: I think the way forward on N900 wireless is to make upstream work on N900	23:13
SpeedEvil	What do you mean 'n900 wireless' ?	23:13
trumee	hmm. i am missing a trick here. I do have bash setup but it doesnt pick .inputrc :(	23:13
lucent	then to discuss the firmware bugs, and finially, injection support	23:13
lucent	SpeedEvil: specifically bluetooth and wifi	23:13
lcuk	oi Noobmonk3y !	23:13
crashanddie	kerio: actually, it is exactly just that	23:13
Noobmonk3y	hehehe	23:13
crashanddie	kerio: may not display correctly depending on your font	23:14
Noobmonk3y	lcuk: up for an april meet?	23:14
SpeedEvil	lucent: you mean for meego?	23:14
kerio	crashanddie: the triforce is full, not empty	23:14
kerio	that's empty	23:14
lcuk	Noobmonk3y, i have already booked february :P	23:14
Noobmonk3y	where?	23:14
lucent	SpeedEvil: I haven't looked into meego, actually	23:14
kerio	▲	23:14
kerio	▲	23:14
SpeedEvil	lucent: even if you get all the bluetooth and wifi bits to an upstream kjernel, you will not be able to do everything if you	23:14
kerio	whoops	23:14
lucent	is meego N900 platform support using upstream kernel wireless?	23:14
kerio	well, ganon stole a piece	23:14
lolloo	yes	23:15
SpeedEvil	lucent: have the default software stack	23:15
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crashanddie	kerio: doesn't matter :)	23:15
lcuk	kerio, we do not speak klingon	23:15
kerio	that's not klingon	23:15
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lucent	SpeedEvil: I'm trying to remedy, well, to just figure out where I want to spend my time to make injection work on N900 wifi	23:15
lcuk	whatever it is, its wasting the ink on my irc printer	23:15
chx	you irc with a printer? that's really hard core	23:16
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lucent	SpeedEvil: "somebody" got it working (David/lxp) but is not interested to release the source that they improved	23:16
chx	we were doing that at the univ back in the mid 90s, a line printer was printing logs to catch attackers.	23:16
lcuk	chx, its not a problem normally, but its hard work carrying round enough ribbons to use with my n900	23:16
lucent	wouldn't the proper way forward be to get upstream backported to N900 and then begin discussion about N900 wifi firmware bug, to get injection support?	23:17
chx	lol	23:17
kerio	i have my IRC engraved in stone	23:17
SpeedEvil	ah	23:17
crashanddie	foo	23:17
chx	btw did anyone try actually printing documents from the N900?	23:17
lucent	just knowing that it is possible, I don't care to pursue that person who got it working if they are not interested. What do we do to be beneficial to the community?	23:18
lcuk	chx someone asked about cups yesterday actually	23:18
lcuk	last i saw/heard was for n8x0 though	23:18
Appiah	if I had a network printer I would try	23:18
lcuk	and possibly from the kde libs	23:18
lcuk	hazy, was a long time ago either way	23:18
chx	it's packaged for fremenatle http://maemo.org/packages/view/cups/ apparently....	23:19
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lcuk	\o/ then	23:19
lcuk	so someone with a printer try it :P	23:20
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lucent	do we know "George" as in http://marc.info/?l=linux-wireless&m=128799300117905&w=2	23:20
RST38h	laRRRRdman	23:20
RST38h	lcuk	23:20
RST38h	moo,all	23:20
lcuk	\o lardman_ RST38h	23:20
* lcuk moos gently		23:20
RST38h	lardman:btw mbarcode stopped saving barcode photos at some point, only stores the text data now	23:21
RST38h	dunno if it qualifies as a bug or a feature	23:21
crashanddie	▲ ▲	23:21
crashanddie	▼	23:21
lucent	RST38h: interesting, I remember it stored the photos	23:21
crashanddie	kerio: happy nao?	23:21
lucent	also know that it won't work if the barcode is red on black background ;)	23:21
kerio	^v^	23:21
lcuk	Noobmonk3y, yes btw	23:22
lucent	movie posters have the QR-codes embedded in fancy colours where I work at a movie theater	23:22
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Noobmonk3y	lol	23:22
lucent	one day I'm saying oh sure my N900 can decode that, but no dice	23:22
kerio	lucent: huh?	23:22
Noobmonk3y	yes to where?	23:22
MohammadAG	lcuk, unable to find package cups	23:22
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kerio	mbarcode	23:22
MohammadAG	or sth	23:22
kerio	if it doesn't work...	23:23
kerio	take a picture, then play with gimp until you have black-on-white	23:23
lcuk	MohammadAG, Fremantle Extras-devel free armel cups 1.3.8-maemo3 http://maemo.org/packages/view/cups/	23:23
lcuk	was specified	23:23
lcuk	not tried	23:23
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lucent	kerio: it was N900 vs. iPhone something-or-other fodder at work, bragging rights who had the most amazing phone. I wanted nothing to do with it but the Apple user cornered me	23:23
lcuk	kerio, not quite getting the concept of mobile barcode reading	23:23
kerio	lcuk: i have gimp on my phone	23:24
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kerio	that's mobile!	23:24
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lcuk	fair point.	23:24
* lcuk retracts statement		23:24
lcuk	now, if you can actually use it happily it will be better	23:24
lucent	also that gimp does not work in the scenario versus iPhone user	23:24
kerio	why?	23:24
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MohammadAG	lcuk, saw it, but apt doesn't find it, which is weird	23:24
kerio	that iPhone user has no way to edit photos on the go	23:25
lcuk	MohammadAG, curious	23:25
RST38h	lcuk: Actually, there are quite a few use scenarios	23:25
lcuk	i know RST38h	23:25
* lcuk likes to take pictures of many things with barcodes/info on them		23:25
lucent	kerio: "because there is no reason to edit photos on the go, I have my iMac to edit photos, silly" or something	23:25
lucent	you know what I'm talking about	23:25
lcuk	all sorts of tickets and receipts and maps and things	23:25
lucent	there's just no point to a conversation like that	23:25
MohammadAG	my printer is connected to my external IP	23:25
lcuk	i have this whole travellog :)	23:25
kerio	"there is no reason to use a barcode scanner to reach a website that PRINTED RIGHT BELOW THE DAMN POSTER"	23:25
MohammadAG	i can print otg	23:25
kerio	*that's	23:25
RST38h	Mohammad: You mean, we can print crap to it? =)	23:26
MohammadAG	RST38h, yes	23:26
crashanddie	the whole n900 vs iphone, and "iphone users are idiots" is getting old very quick, lucent	23:26
RST38h	omg	23:26
MohammadAG	hmm, shit	23:26
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kerio	lucent: "you wouldn't need a barcode scanner if you could type the address quickly with a real keyboard"	23:26
lcuk	does iphone have video out capabilities yet?	23:26
lucent	kerio: ha, I like that one	23:26
* lcuk might get one if so		23:26
kerio	lcuk: since... the first one?	23:26
lcuk	rly?	23:27
kerio	for videos, at least	23:27
lcuk	when I was using my n900 to give presentations from	23:27
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lcuk	the owners of lesser devices were glaring	23:27
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kerio	oh, keynote can definetely use the tv-out nowadays	23:27
kerio	at least with an ipad	23:27
trumee	is it possible to stop N900 offering the sdcard when connecting in mass storage mode?	23:27
lucent	crashanddie: I try not to get involved, honest. The guys at work keep getting iPhones and thinking they're so new and interesting, and want to tell me about it. I'm always saying, hey, I had that hardware feature for months now but the software doesn't quite work right, good for you that you have a jailbroken iPhone or whatever	23:28
lcuk	kerio, ipad != mobile phone	23:28
kerio	trumee: ass rage mode is quite crap	23:28
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trumee	kerio: ?	23:28
lucent	trumee: not that I know of, but you could pop open the back cover and it will have the magnetic sensor to unmount the card	23:28
lucent	trumee: should prevent it from getting exported	23:28
trumee	lucent: yes, i dont want to take out the sdcard	23:28
lucent	no, just pop open the back cover	23:29
nidO	he didnt say take out the card	23:29
lucent	even that is kind of annoying everytime	23:29
nidO	just take the cover off	23:29
lcuk	lucent, they are interesting	23:29
nidO	card = unmounted	23:29
lcuk	i cant wait to run meego on iphone hardware	23:29
nidO	or just manually unmount the card, i guess	23:29
MohammadAG51	lcuk, nevermind, broken lists	23:29
trumee	i have an otterbox and it is pain even to get to the back cover	23:29
lucent	lcuk: Would that ever happen? I don't know, rockbox team had such difficulty to run on new iPod / iPhone hardware	23:29
kerio	otters ^_^	23:29
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lcuk	lucent, it will happen	23:30
kerio	lcuk: the iphone hw sucks for meego	23:30
lcuk	easier if we can get rid of the 3d requirement for meego	23:30
lcuk	but meh	23:30
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* lcuk wonders whether iphone lcd driver supports yuv actually		23:30
lcuk	kerio, why do you think it sucks?	23:31
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kerio	no hardware keyboard, no precise touchscreen	23:31
lucent	lcuk: I do not see it happening within the product lifetime of an Apple product	23:31
lucent	also the multi-touch patents are encumbering to get more precise user control over the interface	23:32
lcuk	lucent, time/motivation/monkeys/keyboards/shakespear etc - once meego portability gets into the swing	23:32
lucent	let's hope so!	23:32
lcuk	theres practically no hardware on the planet that wont be running it	23:32
lucent	anyhow I'm hopeful for maemo to get injection support	23:32
lucent	I meant for N900 to have injection support, maemo or meego, whichever	23:32
lcuk	lucent, is this requiring a kernel module modification?	23:33
lcuk	similar in principle to the other stuff like hostmode ?	23:33
* lcuk is ignorant of tech details of linux network drivers		23:33
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MohammadAG51	lcuk, lucent injection works, the packages are under the gpl with no source	23:34
lcuk	ahhh yuck	23:35
MohammadAG51	it's a kernel mod, yes, cracked two of my APs	23:35
MohammadAG51	though they were WEPs	23:35
lucent	the source is the problem for me though	23:35
lcuk	when the source emerges would it sit in similar manner to the hen stuff you guys are playing with?	23:35
MohammadAG51	oh and a friend's AP, he knew about it of course	23:35
lucent	I do my work and submit to upstream, if you don't send upstream it's like it wasn't even done at all :(	23:35
MohammadAG51	my school had WEP too, so I couldn't miss out :P	23:36
lcuk	lucent, indeed	23:36
lcuk	that is the meego way also	23:36
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lucent	the meego way is to work with upstream, or to ignore them?	23:36
MohammadAG51	work with them	23:36
lucent	want to know where I should focus my efforts anyways, ah okay	23:36
lcuk	http://meego.com/about/contribution-guidelines	23:36
lcuk	upstream	23:36
MohammadAG51	so, how do i set up cups again? :P	23:37
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: wlan source on h-e-n??	23:37
* DocScrutinizer can't see that		23:37
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, no i was asking if its the same principle	23:38
lcuk	and could be organised in similar manner / put together as a patch quilt	23:38
DocScrutinizer	aiui wlan driver is a module, not built to the kernel	23:38
* MohammadAG51 wants to work on the VU kb lights again		23:39
MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer, indeed	23:39
* lcuk gives MohammadAG51 a torch		23:39
lcuk	right DocScrutinizer - that was the distinction I was trying to work out	23:39
DocScrutinizer	so you could just create that module for whatever target kernel	23:39
MohammadAG51	but if you don't have the source? :)	23:39
lcuk	sure MohammadAG51	23:40
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timeless_webchat	http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327672/Wheel-Fortune-Contestant-Caitlin-Burke-solves-puzzle-1-letter.html?ito=feeds-newsxml	23:43
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lcuk	timeless_webchat, :D	23:43
timeless_webchat	lcuk: it's really amazing	23:44
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timeless_webchat	although i think the audio-video sync in the flash thing is broken	23:44
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lcuk	timeless_webchat, she did have a good feeling :)	23:48
timeless_webchat	indeed!	23:49
nox-	moin	23:49
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sp3000	timeless_webchat: so ...perl: while ($x) { ...; next if (!$x); }	23:53
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timeless_webchat	oh wow	23:53
sp3000	that seems somehow nonsensical :)	23:53
* timeless_webchat is watching the smallville episode where clark is given a red cape to go w/ his blue shirt		23:54
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timeless_webchat	sp3000: where's that from!	23:54
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sp3000	from russia with love	23:55
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