IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2009-09-15

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wazdSeriously, I have a cool idea to win :)00:01
javispedrowell, good luck :)00:01
wazdI can't make it on my own :(00:01
wazdjavispedro: wanna join? :)00:01
javispedronot really, too many things in my near term TODO list for now :(00:02
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lcukfuck, i lost my proto sdk00:07
lcuki had to do some coding middle of last week on a ropey ssh connection and it completely screwed up00:07
lcukwazd, ill talk to you tomorrow if you like00:08
lcukive been sketching out ideas since yesterday about a few things00:08
javispedrowow. I envy you all.00:08
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wazdlcuk: ok00:09
lcukjavispedro :) your emu was mentioned more than once00:09
lcukppl had it installed \o/00:10
javispedroyay :)00:10
|KaE|Happy with the Russian Programmer Day!!!00:10
wazd|KaE|: it was like yesterday :)00:11
javispedroironically enough, now that the -devel version plays yoshi's island, yoshi's has become the game I play most :)00:11
* javispedro hopes to find time to polish the fremantle gui a bit this weekend 00:13
Stskeepswazd: - is opacity a good enough effect to be able to use?00:14
|KaE|wazd: sorry, but I was drank yesterday, I don't know00:14
|KaE|wazd: :-D00:14
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wazdStskeeps: well... :)00:14
Corsacbwarf, $649 in us, 649€ in france00:18
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Corsacthough I guess it's without VAT in .us00:18
Stskeepswazd: how's the deadline coming btw?00:19
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wazdStskeeps: well, working as hard as I can00:41
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wazdwohohow :)00:49
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* SpeedEvil wishes you could get nonrectangular LCDs easily00:51
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Captain_Picardhtc way to go00:53
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Captain_Picardnot some small 3.5"00:53
pupnik_nice design wazd00:53
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pupnik_htc can go die though00:54
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Captain_Picardi want maemo with 4.3"00:54
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wazdpupnik_: nice design of what? :)00:55
wazdpupnik_: HTC?)00:55
chxthat HTC piece of shit00:56
chxruns W* M*00:56
Captain_Picardwindows mobile rocks00:57
zerojayPC4.3" would be nice.00:57
zerojayPCBut I'm not exactly hurting with 3.5" either.00:57
Captain_Picardhave you used the n900 yet?00:57
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pupnik_nokia was smart to go 3.5" - it has to be phone-sized00:59
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zerojayNo, but very soon.00:59
wazdStskeeps: btw, I've gout an email from som desperate designer :)01:00
pupnik_cheapest i found for n900 in germany was 530 euro01:00
wazdStskeeps: with neo nuckname01:00
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pupnik_530 isnt bad if it really replaces standalone gps and caöera01:01
mavhcassuming you haven't already bought a camera01:01
zerojayYeah, it'll be nice to carry one device instead of two.01:02
zerojayPut away my N810 and N95.01:02
mavhc1 computer/phone and 1 spare battery01:02
chxyuck, almost 800 usd01:02
zerojayI've never carried a spare.01:02
pupnik_n900 = N810 + phone + (video) camera + gps.  4 devices01:03
chxi dunno, really01:03
zerojayI used my n95 for bluetooth gps/tethering/camera.01:03
chxi am happy with the BT GPS receiver sitting separately in my backpack w its own battery01:04
zerojayTerrible battery life though.01:04
chxwhen i want to phone i want a small sleek device01:04
chxwhen i want to ssh i want a big screen and big keyboard (relatively big)01:04
pupnik_i dont carry backpack to my roman-style orgies01:04
chxthese dont fit01:04
chxagain i dunno01:05
pupnik_my guests love n810 for youtube/web, but want faster response and larger screen01:05
chxi do not need a smartphone of any kind at a roman style orgie01:05
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pupnik_so a 770 with omap3, no gps, no phone, and 5-6" screen would fit the bill01:06
pupnik_a coffee-table browser01:06
* javispedro imagines battery life measured in minutes with a 1 Ghz cpu.01:07
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javispedrodang. an engadget commenter got to that days before me :P01:07
Maikuhi, I've been having trouble with dhcp on my n810, wide-dhcpv6 won't start (although I'm on an ipv4 network I didn't see any other dhcp clients)01:08
pupnik_javidpedro - will you give drnoksnes sdl window a hildon binding?  i have to use kilÃl sometimes01:08
javispedrothe launcher does weird things If I do01:08
pupnik_not a prob for me! :(01:09
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javispedroas a "workaround" I mapped the swap hard button to quit if launched from gui01:09
pupnik_swap hard button?01:09
javispedro"Swap application" front button ,or whatever is called01:10
pupnik_do i need to look in con.. aahh01:10
javispedroeither way.01:10
javispedroI'll probably need to rewrite the whole of video output01:10
javispedroand will do something similar to rst's01:10
javispedro"banging" omapfb directly.01:11
pupnik_mode 7 stuff is amazing fast - almost as fast fps as regular01:11
pupnik_rst's emu?01:11
javispedroall sources seem to indicate that Xsp is a stub in fremantle :(01:11
pupnik_yes daniel wanted to get rid of it - seems he won01:11
javispedrowell, come to think of it.01:11
javispedroI don't know what to do.01:12
javispedrobanging omapfb will get speed but will lose the "composited" goodness.01:12
javispedrobah, I'd need a device :P01:12
pupnik_a n810?01:12
javispedrona, the n900, on the n810 everything seems ok (sdl_updaterect calls do not waste too much time)01:13
javispedrothe only benefit to using omapfb directly there would be to try to do something interesting with tearsync01:13
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javispedropupnik_: yoshi's island is one of the most taxing games currently. and kirby I tried with the C cpu interpreter and was dead slow (slower than 5fps; the frameskipping code can't handle that)01:14
javispedro(on n810, of course)01:14
zerojayWhich Kirby?01:15
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javispedrosuper star / fun pack01:15
zerojayAh.. yeah.01:15
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zerojayStreet Fighter Alpha 2 and Megaman X3 should also be on your test list.01:15
pupnik_other people should test01:16
javispedrosa-1, which is an overclocked 65c816. so I used the same approach as the upstream snes9x and just used some macros around the  CPU C interpreter (which I pulled from PocketSNES :) ) to "convert" it  into a SA-1 interpreter.01:16
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pupnik_... drpocketsnes had no sa-1?01:17
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javispedroideally I'd use the asm 65c816 interpreter for the sa-1, but that's way more work01:18
pupnik_all those damn chips to emulate, trashing the cache01:18
javispedronot only that,01:18
javispedrobut the sa-1 is really powerful, way greater clockspeed01:19
javispedrotriple iirc01:19
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pupnik_actually snes is kind of too heavy/slow to worry about tearsync01:20
* javispedro remembered he needs to write a sw 2x scaler01:21
javispedrobah, firefox crashed01:22
javispedrogoing to bed then01:22
pupnik_are you keeping a changelog of the stuff you do?01:22
pupnik_cool.  cheers€a!01:22
javispedrosee and search for drnoksnes01:22
luke-jrchangelog = SCM01:22
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pupnik_takes me about 10 tries to hilight a link in xterm02:04
pupnik_i shoulÃd implement "link halos"02:04
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b-man16hmm. seems too quiet :/03:25
pupnikeurope sleeps.  USA ...03:28
b-man16it's 8:29 pm here so....03:30
pupnikthe right time for USA to be coding for maemo after work :)03:33
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wazdeurope never sleeps :)03:33
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GeneralAntillesNo, that's just wazd.03:37
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MuJwe finns function better when it's dark03:39
MuJdark and wet and cold03:39
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Macernew episode of true blood04:56
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Macerblah. it kind of sucked05:24
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neatojoneshello.  Does anyone know how to fix a loose screen connector ribbon?05:44
pupnikreplacement ribbon?05:48
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neatojonesAny idea where to get one?05:49
GeneralAntillesOpen 'er up and reseat it?05:50
neatojonesI'm guessing my N810 is just permanently a gonner.05:50
GeneralAntillesOr is the ribbon itself damaged?05:50
neatojonesI opened it up.  But couldn't see any problem with it.05:50
neatojonesdidn't want to pull it off and then re-set it on, if it was only going to mess things up worse.05:50
GeneralAntillesThe connector tends to come loose.05:51
neatojonesthe touch screen is very innacurate and only occaisionally works.05:51
GeneralAntillesSo it has to be reseated.05:51
neatojonesany good way to do that?05:51
GeneralAntillesNot usually an issue with the ribbon itself.05:51
neatojonesfigured that might be the case.05:51
GeneralAntillesJust disconnect and reconnect05:51
GeneralAntillescrashanddie has done it05:51
GeneralAntillesIf you want to talk to him before you try.05:51
neatojonesdoes it slide back on easily if it is removed.  I read in the Nokia manual that it has to be thrown away if it is pulled off.05:51
neatojonesthanks GA05:52
neatojonesI might try that.05:52
zerojayvsync tearing on N900 apparently now fixed:
GeneralAntillesI'm pretty sure he was paid off.05:59
GeneralAntillesJust a Nokia shill.06:00
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zerojayGeneralAntilles: Aren't you on the shill payroll yet?06:10
zerojayIt's ALL the rage.06:10
GeneralAntillesI'm bribe free.06:10
zerojayCome be a part of the Maemo conspiracy.06:10
zerojayWhere we keep everyone down for the man.06:11
* zerojay sings Stonecutters song.06:11
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ShadowJKwhat was the problem with "tearsync" anyway?06:26
ShadowJKlcuk has tear-free liqbase on n8x0, right..06:27
RST38hShadowJK: Run iNES, look at some game thta does horizontal scrolling06:28
RST38hThe "step" effect you see is the tearsync. Some people absolutely hate that.06:29
ShadowJKif they use sdl or regular x11 pixmaps it'll tear even on a PC..06:29
RST38hyou can avoid that by doublebuffering06:29
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RST38hor by blitting on vblanks06:29
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ShadowJKyeah but nobody (except lcuk) actually makes any effort to do that?06:30
RST38hsome people do06:31
RST38hI do not because it will cost me framerate06:31
ShadowJKso I'm just a bit puzzled how people expect it to work :)06:31
ShadowJKor how one would fix it for apps that don't ask for it06:32
RST38hyou have to use doubebuffer explicitely06:32
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ShadowJKeven if you ask SDL for it, SDL doesn't do it when outputting to regular X afaik06:34
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RST38hnot sure, I am not using sdl...06:35
ShadowJKwhat do you use?06:35
RST38hI use GTK+ Image widget when in windowed mode, fb0 + omapfb ioctl()s when in full screen mode06:37
ShadowJKyeah gtk isn't going to lift a finger for it06:37
ShadowJKa side effect of compositing, if used on n900, would be that, if the hw can do it, it would be easier to make regular x11 calls tearfree06:39
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ShadowJKthose games are probably using SDL, and sdl doesn't do tearfree on X :/06:41
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* RST38h doubt x11 will be any faster on n90006:49
RST38hon n810 omapfb is significantly faster than using x11 (with gtk+ widget or direct x11 window)06:49
ShadowJKin the ideal case you save a memcpy()06:50
ShadowJKbut gtk is far from ideal efficiency :)06:50
RST38hgtk is a pig, indeed06:51
RST38hunfortunately, there is no way to get xwindow from hildon application window06:51
ShadowJKthat and application devlopers never even look at what their apps do06:51
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* ShadowJK wonders if the scrollbar in xchat is still redrawn 7 times06:52
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RST38h  <=== guess what is special about this06:54
RST38hoh shit it is in the url =(06:54
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* ShadowJK tries to find a media player on n8x006:55
ShadowJKbuiltin doesnt do flac (and ogg-support package doesnt add it)06:55
ShadowJKukmp seems usable, and faster than builtin06:56
ShadowJKit shows it's python though :)06:56
kulvebuilt-in player will do flac and ogg in n900 with ogg-support06:57
ShadowJKIt claims I'm currently listening to: [u'029d9\u0163d... too long to type in06:57
ShadowJKdsp-flac on n8x0 added dsp-powered flac support to built-in06:59
ShadowJKbut sound is barely recognizable :)06:59
Macerdefying gravity isn't too bad06:59
RST38hShadowJK: What is the point in having it then?07:00
ShadowJKrst38h: none.07:00
* ShadowJK uninstalled it07:01
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ShadowJKmaybe i spoke too soon07:07
* ShadowJK cant find any of his flac files in ukkmp07:08
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carboncopyafternoon - here08:00
carboncopygot a quick question08:00
carboncopyI have formatted the Internal Memory of the N810 to ext308:00
carboncopyif I want apps to be installed there08:01
carboncopydo I need to like symlink usr lib opt after i copied it there?08:01
johnxwhat would probably not be a good idea08:02
johnxthe card won't be available to the OS until far into the boot process08:02
carboncopywhat if i just want apps to be installed there08:02
johnxwhat you probably want to do is clone to sd08:02
carboncopyboot from flash/SD?08:02
johnxyup, boot from sd08:03
Stskeepsmorning johnx08:06
johnxmornin' :)08:06
b1ackdeathits late at night here z_z08:07
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infobotmethinks ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant.
b1ackdeathmy apologizes08:09
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b1ackdeathi wish my n810 was in better condition, altho my blog is still geting file downloads :)08:10
johnxheh. :D notthing to apologize for. I'm just a promoter of UGT ever since I found out about it08:11
carboncopythanks :D i'll skip that for now08:11
b1ackdeathi see08:11
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MaceN8x0defying gravity is like08:18
MaceN8x0where it will take 10 seasons to get to any type of point08:18
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carboncopyam back, another RFC08:31
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carboncopywhy should I stick to FAT32 on my SD08:32
Myrttiwhat were you thinking instead?08:32
Myrttimost appliances read only fat3208:32
zerojayCompatibility's sake.08:33
carboncopyI use Linux on my Desktop08:33
carboncopyso i can read ext3 no prob08:33
carboncopyinterms of apps on N81008:33
zerojayAnd if you're not at your desktop?08:33
carboncopythe FS is transparent to them is it not? since kernel handles it08:33
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zerojayI wouldn't change from FAT32 unless I had a majorly important reason for it.08:34
zerojayJust simply because you never know when you might be stuck on some Windows machine with an emergency.08:34
zerojayAnd it's those rare times you'll be thankful.08:34
carboncopyoh true..08:34
carboncopyit happened before, was trying to download a wifi driver for a windows machine08:35
carboncopyanother reason why i should keep to fat32 : i could not write to my ext3 from linux (not plugnplay)08:41
johnxcarboncopy, works fine here08:43
* johnx compiles h-i-m svn on his n800, canola on his wii, and watches flash videos on his Athlon64. heh.08:46
Meiz_n810johnx seems to have 3 core brain :)08:46
Meiz_n8103 tasks at the same time08:46
johnxor I'm working on developing ADD08:47
johnxwatching robot chicken should help with that ...08:47
Stskeepsyay robot chicken08:51
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MaceN8x0im still watching defying gravity09:00
MaceN8x0good show although it is kind of slow09:01
Stskeepsthey should put up the pilot on hulu09:05
tank-manI spit on hulu09:06
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Captain_Picardno one who watches hulu are true developers09:09
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tank-manonly americans watch hulu09:11
Stskeepsor people with ssh09:11
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MaceN8x0wtf is hulu?09:16
tank-manweb site with flash video of tv shows09:17
Stskeepsyou don't know hulu, MaceN8x0 ?09:17
tank-manonly for americans and those that like to break Terms of Service agreements09:17
MaceN8x0never used it09:18
Stskeepsyou would probably like it with all the tv you see09:18
tank-manI think its only re-runs of tv shows09:18
tank-manmythtv > hulu09:18
Stskeepsnop, often up to date09:18
MaceN8x0sounds like it would be crappy video09:18
MaceN8x0plus... no need ;)09:19
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* Meiz_n810 yawns09:56
Meiz_n810still a month until i get my touchbook :|09:58
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Meiz_n810johnx: do you know when pandora will ship, i have been kinda disappointed with it. (I almost sold my n810 before 2008 christmas to get pandora when it comes out.. o.o)10:09
Meiz_n810wasn't it october?10:09
johnxyeah, it was supposed to be late-october 2008 :)10:10
johnxmaybe it'll be october or november 200910:10
johnxI can't predict better than anyone else10:10
Meiz_n810anyway, this is interesting year :) pandora n900 and TB10:11
* Meiz_n810 is supposed to study how to calculate cone agreace and capacity -_-10:16
* Meiz_n810 is insead, using dictonary to find out that "kartio" is "cone" in english...10:18
Meiz_n810oh.. i'm sooo bored.10:20
Meiz_n810spamming this channel with what i do10:20
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Meiz_n810area i mean10:27
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crashanddie_GeneralAntilles, please don't tell on me in the future10:47
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SpeedEvil1I think 2010 is to be the year of small relatively open linux devices.10:49
threshI think 2010 is to be the year of Linux on Desktop.10:49
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SpeedEvil1Starting to come out of china, from some of hte myriad of small vendors10:49
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crashanddie_SpeedEvil1, and there we have, yet another idiot with his stupid predictions10:51
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crashanddie_SpeedEvil, there's been "year of linux" memes for the past 15 years, and it never happened, people got even more excited when vista came out "Surely people will NOT put up with this", or with the eeePCs ("Oh look, people do buy linux"), but the matter of fact is: NO, the end consumer doesn't give a flying fuck about what is running on his device, he doesn't even know there's something running in there apart from the hamster (which i10:52
crashanddie_s just a metaphor for the CPU)10:52
SpeedEvilIf I'm wrong, I will buy you one shiny apple.10:52
SpeedEviland yes.10:52
SpeedEvilI agree with that.10:52
SpeedEvilTo be more explicit.10:53
SpeedEvilIt'll be the first two or 10 devices out of china that sell small volumes of relatively open linux.10:53
SpeedEvilIt's _not_ going to be a widespread revolution.10:53
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SpeedEvilThere certainly aren't 100m users out there for a niche open cheapish low-end featurephone. 100k - probably, if it's mostly sane.10:55
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crashanddie_oh ffs I lost my oyster card10:57
crashanddie_bloody fantastic10:57
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MaceN8x0ran out of defying gravity episodes11:36
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mgedminNokia N900 on amazon: 2.1 inches thick :-)11:38
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MaceN8x0they are selling them on amazon?11:39
mgedmina preorder page just appeared11:40
mgedmin"Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S." :(11:41
Corsacmgedmin: expansys11:42
SpeedEvil2.1" - that'll be the 47 day battery life version.11:42
bilboed-pilooks like someone mixed up inches and cms11:43
mgedminperhaps that's the dimensions of the whole box11:44
mgedminexpansys is funny: "If you are a Lithuanian customer - please take a look at our Lithuanian website -"11:44 looks like a typical-domain-squatter fake search page11:44
* mgedmin is amazed to find Lithuania in the country dropdown for the billing/delivery address11:46
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mgedmin"Expected release date 19 Oct 09" :(11:46
Corsacon expansys?11:47
Corsaccouldn't find a release date11:47
MaceN8x0i learned my lesson with the touchbook i am still waiting on11:49
Corsacme too :p11:49
MaceN8x0never going to preorder again11:49
Corsacbut you can't really compare a startup like AI with its first product and Nokia, imho11:49
MaceN8x0i suppose11:49
MaceN8x0still tho11:49
MaceN8x0preordering has been put on my "no" list11:50
CorsacI can understand that :)11:50
MaceN8x0thanks to ai ;*11:50
Corsacespecially since the price may drop or there might be better offerings on various sites11:50
MaceN8x0that also11:50
Corsacatm sells it at 650e while expansys is at 615e11:51
MaceN8x0how much  in $?11:51
Corsacnokia usa is at $65011:51
MaceN8x0seeing as the US is too arrogant to jump in on a world currency11:52
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Corsac650 Euros = 950.88500 U.S. dollars11:52
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MaceN8x0that is odd11:52
MaceN8x0why 950 there and $650 here?11:52
Corsacbecause it's excluding tax, and because nokia does a 1to1 match apparently11:53
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Corsacsomething like that11:53
Corsacthough it's cheaper elsewhere in .eu11:53
MaceN8x01to1 match on currency?11:53
suihkulokkiit is not only nokia, it is all electronics11:53
MaceN8x0so we get a discount because our currency is doing worse than the euro?11:54
Corsacit's worth asking an us guy to buy it for me :)11:54
Corsacthough that means wireless channel 12 and 13 won't be available11:54
MaceN8x02 more cluttered channels11:55
suihkulokkithe price difference comes down to different taxes and other eu shit (like the e-waste directive) and to the fact that as fragmented market eu customers are willing to pay more11:55
MaceN8x0theyre all the same11:55
CorsacMaceN8x0: you don't get it11:55
Corsacwhen you don't control the network infrastructure, you might want to be able to connect to the 12/13 chans :)11:56
CorsacI had the problem with my us-thinkpad the other day11:56
MaceN8x0i suppose11:56
Corsacthe only available wireless network was on channel 1211:56
CorsacI could see and connect with my n810 but not with the thinkpad11:56
MaceN8x0us devices have fcc restrictions?11:57
till-use an usb-wifi-dongle :)11:57
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MaceN8x0is there some  fcc guy11:58
MaceN8x0that goes house to house sniffing freqs?11:58
till-german amazon: 558,98 euro :)11:58
Corsactill-: wifi dongles just suck :)11:58
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CorsacMaceN8x0: they don't have to sniff freqs11:58
till-i know, mine broke when the notebook fall off my bed11:58
Corsacthey just have to prevent anyone selling not compliant devices11:59
MaceN8x0the lasers from space track you?11:59
MaceN8x0that is impossible11:59
MaceN8x0do you really think an inspector at customs11:59
MaceN8x0would stop a wifi router because of fcc freq regulations?11:59
MaceN8x0no way12:00
Corsacthey wont inspect each and every box12:00
Corsacbut random control12:00
MaceN8x0if someone had a eu laptop12:00
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MaceN8x0running adhoc on chan 12...12:00
Corsacha but personal stuff is not a problem12:00
mgedminaren't most wifi frequency restrictions done in firmware/software?12:00
MaceN8x0take his laptop?12:00
Corsacmgedmin: firmware on mine12:01
CorsacMaceN8x0: you won't have problem using an eu access point and an eu laptop I think12:01
Corsacnobody will bother you12:01
Corsacexcept you piss off someone on that freq12:01
MaceN8x0like norad?12:01
Corsaclike, if it's a military freq :p12:01
MaceN8x0explaining that a 12billion$ jet crashed because of a eu wifi router12:02
Corsacthat would be a good plan to invade europe12:02
MaceN8x0i doube a wifi router has the power to jam a 20W military radio12:02
MaceN8x0even the manpacks12:03
MaceN8x0not to mention the higher powered stuff12:03
MaceN8x0we had 300W uhf amps on some of our vehivles12:04
MaceN8x050W amplified vhf  was also common... i think the fcc is full of shit heh12:05
MaceN8x0nothing more than keeping freqs for bidding wars between multi-trillion dollar corperate conglomerates12:05
SpeedEvilA 30mW transmitter will jam a 300W transmitter - if the 30mW one is 100 times closer to the reciever12:06
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wazdheya everybody :)12:09
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Stskeepsheya wazd12:12
MacerSpeedEvil: yeah i suppose12:18
Macerbut to get that close to a military receiver? :)12:18
Macernot to mention the military has a good knack for triangulation along with amazing accuracy with artilery12:19
MacerIn the USA, 802.11b operation in the channels 12 and 13 is not strictly forbidden by the relevant regulatory authority, the FCC.12:21
Macerso why not have the freqs on us routers? :)12:22
Maceris this like an lb vs kilo thing?12:22
Macerdare to be different? :)12:22
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Maceranyways. going to take a shower. i bought new razors and wow it is amazing the difference you feel when you've been using the same one for about a year because you were too lazy to go through the 30 steps at walgreens to get one12:23
Stskeepsyes, it is :P12:23
Macerwhat a pain thives have put upon the world.. where razors are locked behind the counter and you have to call customer service and wait for someone to authorize the sale of a pack of friggin razors12:23
MacerStskeeps: it was like using a crafted katana haha12:24
Maceri think the hair fell off before the razor even touched it because of the way it cut through the air12:24
Macerwow. i have never seen a summer so mild as this year12:25
Macerit was like living in california this summer.. temps above 80 were rare12:25
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CorsacI don't shave12:26
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alteregoI go on holiday for a couple of weeks and the whole world turns inside out :)12:27
johnxwell, you must be the center of the universe then :)12:29
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alteregoI'm at the centre of my universe :)12:34
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gomiamwhich is interesting considering you are "alterego" :P12:34
johnxI think he usurped the original ego :)12:35
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alteregoI sold it for magical beans12:35
glass_were they any good?12:36
glass_big bangs?12:36
alteregoThe beans? No, they were just normal kidney beans, still waiting for paypal to resolve my dispute >_<12:36
gomiamand wait you will, since the dispute is with your alter-alter ego :)12:37
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zaheermafter installing  maemo 5 sdk 2, it says i need to run script start12:54
zaheermbut the script is not in my home directory12:54
zaheermwhen inside the scratchbox12:54
zaheermall i see are rootstrap tgz files there12:55
adeusit's in your PATH12:56
adeusso if you installed it correclty, just write that command12:56
zaheermi get command not found, how can i debug this?12:56
alteregoHave you installed the meta package maemo-sdk-dev or maemo-sdk-runtime?12:57
zaheermthe only package i installed was nokia-binaries12:57
alteregoE: apt-get update && fakeroot apt-get install maemo-sdk-dev12:58
zaheermit says it is already the newest version12:58
alteregoWell, you need to install at a minimum, the runtime to test applications and the dev image to buil;d them :)12:58
alteregoIt would be so much easier if every one used the VM images ^.^12:59
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alteregoWell, generic advice, delete the target and try again :)13:00
adeusosso-af-sb-startup provides it13:00
zaheermi just followed instructions on maemo.org13:00
adeusdunno what's the bundle13:00
Khertan_teleworkouch i finally got the mail from jaffa about sponsorship13:01
Khertan_telework5 day of delay13:01
zaheermadeus, ok so that package is not installed13:01
alteregoI really want to go to the summit :(13:02
zaheermand installing it gives me depends: holidon-initscrip[ts but it is not going to be installed13:02
Khertan_teleworkhum ... a nit that reboot many times when displaying the dark screen "battery is charging ..." probably mean that the problem isn't software :(13:02
alteregoWhat charger are you using?13:03
zaheermand hildon-initscripts can't be installed because theme-config  has no installation candidate13:03
alteregoYou can cold charge a tablet with a USB charger,13:03
infobotYes I can!13:04
alteregozaheerm, have you installed the rootstrap properly?13:04
zaheermalterego, i have followed the instructions on the web13:04
johnxinfobot, you can't cold charge a tablet with a USB charger13:04
Khertan_teleworkalterego: the nokia one13:05
alteregoKhertan_telework: have you been having issues with battery life as of late?13:05
johnxKhertan_telework, not necessarily13:05
johnxthat screen is actually displayed by X1113:05
johnxso anything that would normally be causing a reboot loop, could be applying in that situation13:06
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Khertan_teleworkalterego: of course as it s reboot every times it doesn't charge13:06
Khertan_teleworkso battery life is short13:06
alteregoI meant before this problem :)13:06
Khertan_teleworkbut what is strange is that it doesn't occur everytime13:06
Khertan_teleworkalterego: before no prob13:06
alteregoThat is strange :) Well, kind of strange13:06
alteregoMaybe the charger has broken cable.13:07
Khertan_teleworkother things ... after flashing it, i didn't see the problem for two days13:07
Khertan_teleworkthen it come back13:07
Khertan_teleworkbut ... hum ... i ve two charger ...13:07
johnxwhat have you installed so far?13:07
Khertan_teleworkmaybe that ...13:07
Khertan_teleworkwill try13:07
Khertan_teleworkjohnx : pygtkeditor and python2.513:08
Khertan_teleworkonly that13:08
Khertan_teleworkand do the same things under mer13:08
Khertan_teleworkand while the nit is shutdown and charging13:08
alteregozaheerm: did you install it "manually" or did you use the install scripts?13:08
Khertan_telework(you know the false shutdown mode)13:08
zaheermalterego, install scripts13:09
alteregoWell, I'd say try again :)13:09
alteregoI usually do a manual installation, but then I'm pretty fickle.13:09
alteregoI don't like the target names the script uses, so I wrote my own.13:10
* Khertan_telework is trying on other nokia charger13:11
alteregoI _really_ want to go to the summit, but I can't, it's a pain in the ass.13:11
alteregoI bet Murphy will be there and everyone will be handed free N900's and I'll miss out on it. ^.^13:11
johnxI did actually break a charger once, then followed it up by buying a charger that broke a week later13:11
Khertan_teleworki try the first charger on my phone13:12
alteregoNokia chargers are not exactly robust, I have several, but I leave them places so I don't move them, one in the office, one at home and one in the bag for emergencies/travel.13:12
Khertan_teleworkthe nit doesn't seems to reboot anymore13:12
alteregoI also have the USB charger.13:12
kirmaalterego: chinese cheap clones are even less robust ;)13:12
Khertan_teleworkand my phone didn't seems to reboot with the first charger13:13
Khertan_teleworkarg ... i talk too fast13:13
alteregoI think I might order my N900 from the US13:13
Khertan_teleworknit just reboot13:13
zaheermalterego, ok so how do i remove current installation?13:13
alteregoThe exchange rate is good.13:13
Khertan_teleworkin shutdown charging mode13:13
Khertan_teleworkso this seems to be the battery13:13
alteregozaheerm, I think you can just run the scripts again, outside of scratchbox. Otherwise, delete everything under /scratchbox/users/<USERNAME>/targets (don't quote me on that path) ;)13:14
alteregoKhertan_telework: do you have a multimeter?13:14
alteregoWhat V is the battery measuring at?13:14
Khertan_teleworkgood idea ... 3.7 Right ?13:15
alteregoIt'll be significantly lower if it's screwed.13:15
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Khertan_teleworkhum ... just take a me13:23
Khertan_teleworkalterego: there seems to be a serious problem13:23
Khertan_teleworkbattery output is 3.9V13:23
johnxit's topped up then I think13:24
Khertan_teleworkand now 4.0V13:24
johnxunloaded, fully charged?13:24
Khertan_teleworkuhm ... and it s look larger than before13:25
johnxtip: don't cold it tightly or leave it on something flammable13:25
alteregoOh, it might be exploding.13:26
alteregoI'd dispose of it.13:26
alteregoAnd check for shorts.13:26
alteregoBut I'm not too up on Li-Ion tech.13:26
alteregoMake a note of the serial number/s13:26
johnxs/cold/hold of course ...13:26
Khertan_teleworkjohnx: extracted from the nit13:26
alteregoI think Nokia have a site that tells you if a batch is possibly faulty13:26
Khertan_teleworkjohnx: not fully charged13:26
Khertan_teleworkand the back seems Domed13:26
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alteregoThat, definitely isn't good.13:27
Khertan_teleworkyep thanks13:27
alteregoIs it hot?13:27
Khertan_teleworkno the battery is cold13:27
Khertan_teleworkthanks alterego to give me the idea to use a multimeter ... so i ve extracted the battery13:27
alteregoWell, like I said, I'm not really qualified to tell you what to do :P13:27
alteregoI'd ask someone that is :)13:28
Khertan_teleworkfor me it s clear ... i ll not use it anymore13:28
johnxmetal bucket13:28
Khertan_teleworkbut it s just seems domed a little13:28
Khertan_teleworkand haven't an other to compare13:28
alteregoThis is an N810 right13:28
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alteregoWhich side is domed? The side with the hologram or the other side?13:29
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Khertan_teleworkthe both13:30
lbtthe N900 has an IR transmitter ... does it have a rcvr?13:30
alteregoYeah, definitely something wrong there. Mine is completely flat.13:30
Khertan_telework(made in china)13:30
alteregolbt: should be an IrDA port, so yes.13:30
Khertan_teleworknokia 's batteries are made in china ?13:30
johnxlbt, I think not13:30
SpeedEvilKhertan_telework: IMO - put it somewhere where if it catches fire it won't cause damage13:31
X-FadeKhertan_telework: hi..13:31
Khertan_teleworkalterego: Mine is completely flat. <<< thanks13:31
Khertan_teleworkSpeedEvil: yep ...13:31
X-FadeKhertan_telework: you made a typo in pygtkeditor depends :)13:31
Khertan_teleworkhi X-Fade13:31
johnxdidn't see anything about receiving...or the term IRDA so I kind of assume it's not there13:31
SpeedEvilThis is of course mechanical damage13:31
alteregojohnx: Oh I thought I saw that in the kernel config. Sorry, I'm probably wrong ;)13:31
lbthmm, would be interesting...13:32
johnxalterego, nope, you'd be right :)13:32
johnxdidn't look at the kernel13:32
johnxI do love the IR13:32
johnxmeans we can set it by the TV and use a nice remote with it13:32
lbtwhat hardware spec - can you tell13:32
X-FadeKhertan_telework: pythonh? :)13:32
Khertan_teleworklol thanks x-fade13:32
alteregoI dunno, I'm not really interested in the IR, unless I can use it with my SeXBox13:32
johnxor let it track with IR lights like a wiimote :>13:32
lbtcan't track13:32
lbtthat needs a camers13:33
Khertan_teleworkbut can't fix it right now ... source is in internal memory ... and has you can read it some line before ... my nit battery is dying13:33
alteregoWe have two cameras! :)13:33
Khertan_teleworkSpeedEvil: ouch !13:33
zerojaywjt: Don't know if you saw, but telepathy-butterfly adds audio/video calling for MSN. Hmmmm.... ;)13:33
johnxlbt, ah, right. wasn't thinking clearly13:33
SpeedEvilKhertan_telework: yeah - it shows how much energy is in them13:33
wjtzerojay: are you thinking what i'm thinking? :)13:33
X-FadeKhertan_telework: as long as you know that there is a problem ;)13:33
lbtalterego: can't track IR using the irDA... that needs a camera13:33
Khertan_teleworkyep thanks13:33
alteregolbt, I know, and the N900 has two cameras :P13:34
alteregoAnyhow, you can pair a wiimote with the N900 and use that.13:34
zerojaywjt: We're going to go and take over the world tonight, Pinky?13:34
johnxalterego, wiimote needs two IR sources, so looks like two n900s :)13:34
johnxbut N900s tracking *each other* is kind of cool13:34
johnxlaser tag anyone? :D13:34
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alteregoA Wiimote and a sensor bar.13:35
alteregoIt's only interfacing with the N900, which could be plugged into your TV like a console and used to play some game.13:36
Khertan_teleworki didn't understand how a battery can output 4V when she is constructed to output 3.7V13:36
SpeedEvilKhertan_telework: it's not13:36
johnxyup, and I have this really nice battery powered "sensor" bar13:36
SpeedEvilKhertan_telework: the operating range of lithium-ion is from 3-4.2V13:36
X-FadeKhertan_telework: 3.7v is nominal.13:36
johnxactually works better than nintendo's13:36
johnxprobably uses brighter LEDs13:36
X-FadeKhertan_telework: 4.2v when full.13:36
SpeedEvilMaybe a little under 3 in some circumstances13:36
johnxbut if you had two N900s you *could* use their IR LEDs to act as a "sensor" "bar"13:37
Khertan_teleworkhum ... ok13:37
X-FadeSpeedEvil: Well, I don't think Nokia would allow a device to go under 3.6v or something like that.13:37
alteregoI ca'm finding it hard to justify getting one N900, let alone two.13:37
alteregoI will have an N900, I will buy it, but it's hard pursuading myself to spend 500 pounds on another gadget :/13:38
alteregoEven if it is the most amazing peice of kit around.13:38
johnxit'll be a while after launch til I get mine13:38
* ShadowJK spent 400 on new phone a couple of months ago :(13:39
alteregoI love my N96+N81013:39
SpeedEvilX-Fade: 3.6 has about 15% of the energy left till it reaches the normal threshold of 3V or so13:39
alteregoBut there are things that the N810 doesn't do that are stopping my from writing the applications I want to write, the N900 has these facilities.13:39
zerojayI'm very looking forward to dumping my N95 + N810 for an N900.13:39
johnxI think my n800 will still find plenty of purpose13:40
johnxmaybe for in car audio/navigation13:40
alteregoI gave my N800 to my brother when I got the N81013:40
alteregoHe loves it, like I love my N810.13:40
alteregozerojay, I am also, it's the ultimate in convergence device for me ;)13:40
X-FadeSpeedEvil: yes, but the drop off is quite steep and with temperature changes you risk not being able to boot anymore to start the charge.13:41
ShadowJKspeedevil: NITs shutdown around 3.5 actually :)13:41
alteregoIs there any reason I shouldn't order an N900 fromn the states?13:42
alteregoRather than getting one from the UK?13:42
johnxalterego, I don't know what they'll do in terms of WLAN channels13:42
SpeedEvilShadowJK: yeah - the amount of time you have after 3.6 goes down _sharply_ with slightly older batteries.13:42
SpeedEvilShadowJK: so shutting off earlier makes some sense.13:43
* alterego sighs13:43
johnxand I assume you're ok with US qwerty?13:43
zaheermalso getting one from lhr t5 would work out cheaper than getting one from usa, right?13:43
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ShadowJKif you're crazy you can probably run down to 2.5V (but that's too low for n8x0, no boost converters except for usb otg)13:43
alteregoIt's 140 pounds more though,13:43
Khertan_teleworkjohnx i ll got mine only if i can get it by a developper program at a lower price13:43
zaheermis it that much more?13:43
alteregoIt is at the current exchange rate.13:44
SpeedEvilShadowJK: after 3 you have _very_ little energy though - 1% - maybe less13:44
johnxKhertan_telework, might be the same for me :/13:44
johnxif I can't get it with a dev program rebate it'll be quite a while ...13:44
Khertan_teleworkor maybe one year after if price drop down13:44
crashanddieoh come on, don't tell me you can't afford to spend 500 quid on a phone...13:44
Khertan_teleworkbut i can't really put more than 200 Euros in a gadget13:45
Khertan_teleworkcrashanddie: i can't13:45
crashanddiejust eat pasta for a month13:45
zaheermalso did anyone figure out whether n900 has usb otg like n810?13:45
crashanddiedon't buy clothes13:45
crashanddiework more13:45
crashanddieshow your dedication13:45
johnxcrashanddie, I can't afford to spend 500 quid on a non-necessary item right now, and I do eat an awful lot of pasta13:45
crashanddiejohnx: out of a job?13:45
johnxcrashanddie, so you're picking it up at launch?13:45
crashanddiejohnx: trying to even before that ;)13:46
johnxnah, just not getting paid all that much13:46
alteregozaheerm: it does, there's a whole thread on maemo talk.13:46
alteregoAbout the hardware.13:46
Khertan_teleworkcrashanddie: working more didn't give you more money13:46
Khertan_teleworkjust working more13:46
johnxcrashanddie, and I have my wife and mine medical stuff to cover13:46
Khertan_teleworki live in france :)13:46
crashanddieKhertan_telework: in the correct industry, working more does give you more $$$ ;)13:46
ShadowJKspeedevil: my old n800 battery goes from 3.8V idle to 3.6V streaming music ;)13:46
alterego500 pounds is a lot of money, I don't care who you are.13:46
alteregoThat's a months living expenses for me.13:47
alteregoMore than infact.13:47
ShadowJKwaiting until it's 3.6 idle and then launching the media player doesn't even give you low battery warning :)13:47
Khertan_teleworki can bought it if i want but it s clearly not my priority ... and clearly not the one of my wife13:47
Khertan_teleworkwhat 's wife wants, god wants !13:47
alteregoKhertan_telework: exactly, you're probably in the same mindset as I am about it ;)13:47
alteregoMy gf is always complaining about me and my gadgets ^.^13:48
johnxcrashanddie, heh, ironically, my wife would be fine with me getting it, but she's kind of an optimist when it comes to our budget ...13:48
alteregoOTOH, an N900 would replace two of my gadgets, so it should be a win ;)13:48
crashanddieliving alone -- much more bang for the bukc13:48
Khertan_teleworki m currently planning to make a bathroom at the upstair13:48
Khertan_teleworkso ... it s a lot of money13:49
johnxand yet not as much bang for the ... nevermind :)13:49
alteregocrashanddie: sure, but you pay twice as much bills+rent :P13:49
Khertan_teleworkcrashanddie: yeah ... i understand now ... you are alone ... this explain everythings ...13:49
crashanddiealterego: I really don't care about that...13:49
crashanddiealterego: I can afford it, you guys are not going to give me grief for that ;)13:49
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: see
crashanddieSpeedEvil: lol13:50
crashanddieI said I lived alone, not that I *was* alone13:50
crashanddiesmall difference in words, huge difference in actions13:50
crashanddieKhertan_telework: t'as quel age deja/13:51
zaheermalterego, after adding sales tax for california, device costs 712.28 usd works out about 432 gbp13:51
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ShadowJKwhat's the price in UK?13:51
alteregoI've been using the Tritanium theme on my N810 the past couple of days, I like the charging indicator.13:51
crashanddieShadowJK: £49913:52
alteregoSorry Khertan_telework13:52
crashanddiezaheerm: yeah, but you'll have to pay import tax probably13:52
mojocafehi everyone. i just downloaded the vmware with the maemo sdk inside - does anyone of you can tell me where a simple "hello world" tutorial is ? for maemo4 please not the 5th version13:52
ShadowJKso add 15% VAT to 432?13:52
crashanddieis it only 15%?13:52
zaheermcrashanddie, yah just thought i'd let alterego that its prob better to buy from here13:52
alteregoYeah, I will, because I'm like that :P13:53
crashanddieShadowJK: works up around £495 off the top of my head13:53
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crashanddieso the ticket to the US really kinda shoots the idea down :P13:53
johnxmojocafe, maemo 4 is called diablo. if you search with "maemo diablo hello world" you should get some results13:53
Khertan_teleworkcrashanddie: 27 :)13:53
alteregoIt's a bit annoying though, because we've heard absolutely nothing about any device programme, so what if we all rush out and buy one, then they announce it.13:53
zaheermi fly thru lhr t5 on 17/10, hopefully it is out by then so i can buy from airport nokia store13:53
mojocafejohnx: thanks.13:53
crashanddiealterego: my expectation is there won't be one13:54
ShadowJKiirc 15% when they lowered it to EU minimum, might have gone up since13:54
zaheermthere is a device program qgil said on ml13:54
mojocafelol... i just search for "diablo hell world"13:54
alteregocrashanddie: the general consensus was supposed to be, that stage 4/5 have the final dev programme.13:54
crashanddiethat's the general consensus, I gave my opinion13:54
johnxalterego, then they can hand out devices to devs who don't have the money, and they win :)13:54
zerojayzaheerm: Should be announced around Maemo Summit.13:54
alteregoBut this close to the release, what do they expect us devs to do?13:55
crashanddiejohnx: already been doing that13:55
ShadowJKif you order from US via usps there's a risk you'll have to pay VAT in uk. if they ship with ups,dhl,fedex, youll almost certainly need to pay vat13:55
alteregoThere are going to be a lot of users having these devices that wont get commmunity support, because none of the community own one :)13:55
johnxcrashanddie, right, but if they let the early adopters spend money first, then offer a dev program for the holdouts13:55
johnxthey make their money go farther13:55
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zaheermwonder if upstream library devs would qualify as well as app writers13:56
alteregozaheerm: package maintainers are just as important as app developers,13:56
alteregoIMO ;)13:56
SpeedEvilShadowJK: And a fee on top for DHL/fedex/... to kindly pay this fee for you13:57
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ShadowJKyeah :)13:57
mojocafei am on this page - -.... where do i put the code in??? i am a totall noob with *nix/hildon scripting....13:57
crashanddiejohnx: maybe13:57
crashanddiejohnx: however it would be pretty unfair to the early adopters13:57
alteregoGrr, I'm so sad I can't go to the summit.13:57
johnxjust throwing out the pessimist's opinion13:58
* alterego sulks.13:58
crashanddiejohnx: the devs who need one already got one, on a lending basis, but still13:58
johnxalterego, might be joining you in non-summitness13:58
ShadowJKI think nokia will have problems producing enough devices to meet demand for the next few months13:58
SpeedEvilI hope so.13:58
ShadowJKyou hope so?13:58
SpeedEvilIt'd mean that they've underestimated the market, and there is a potential for price cuts as volume kicks in more.13:59
SpeedEvila greater potential13:59
alteregoThough when have Nokia ever adjusted their prices from demand :P13:59
ShadowJKalterego: when nobody was excited about n97, they cut :P14:00
SpeedEvilIf they've budgeted for making 10K - if they turn up with orders for 100K - they can probably tweak14:00
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Khertan_teleworkouch the price of the battery BP-4L 45 Euros plus 7.5Euro for delivery14:01
ShadowJKthey're 25-ish from the right places (original, too)14:02
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alteregoHeh, Dell want me to pay 100 GBP for a replacement abttery for my XPS14:02
SpeedEvilAt least secondary production of laptop batteries seems to have kicked in somewhat.14:03
crashanddieNokia has a habit of underestimating the demand and traction of their n-series products14:03
SpeedEvilA new battery for my older thinkpad is maybe half retail14:03
alteregoI wouldn't mind, but the batter is deffective.14:03
alteregoBut my laptop is out of warrenty.14:03
crashanddiethey're surprised every single time by the demand14:03
zerojayNot like this though.14:04
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Khertan_teleworkhum ... where is the right place ?14:04
mojocafecan anyone help me how to make first steps in vmware to develop maemo apps ?14:04
crashanddieKhertan_telework: just get the Nokia one14:04
crashanddieKhertan_telework: i bought one from ebay for a few quid, got it, and it holds the charge for maybe 2 or 3 hours. Got a new one from Nokia, for 25 quid or something, and works fine (10 hours of use), it failed after a few months, and got it replaced for free14:05
ShadowJKthey're about half price without retail packaging :)14:06
Khertan_teleworkfor 25 quid or something ;;;; here it s 4514:06
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crashanddiebuying stuff from youtube?14:07
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zaheermalterego, weird 2nd time round, it worked :)14:11
zaheermouch or so i thought14:12
zaheermseems it exists for FREMANTLE_ARMEL14:12
zaheermbut not for FREMANTLE_X8614:13
zaheermaah shit i am stupid14:14
wazdAny desperados to participate in Push with me? :D14:14
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Stskeepswhat are you planning? :P14:16
alteregowazd: details?14:16
wazdI have a really nice idea :)14:16
SpeedEvildoes it involve cheese?14:16
alteregowazd: I'd like to :)14:17
* RichiH_aussie is on the road so forgive me for not googling extensively and simply asking (time is spare-ish): is there any GPS tracking application for the n810? i.e. i want to log places/routes14:17
wazdno gadgets from 80's involved :D14:17
RichiH_aussiethanks :)14:17
StskeepsRichiH_aussie: maemo mapper14:17
wazdand btw it would be a good opportunity to show liqbase as something realy useful at last :D14:18
RichiH_aussiealso, can i download maps for the n810 on a normal computer & then copy them via USB?14:18
RichiH_aussiedownloading does not work14:18
wazdalong with GSoC project :)14:18
StskeepsRichiH_aussie: possibly, search for that14:18
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wazdalterego: do you have any coding skills? :)14:18
lcukliqbase has always been useful you cheeky sob :P14:18
StskeepsRichiH_aussie: winmapper or search for maemo mapper14:19
wazdlcuk: yeah, as a remote controller :D14:19
RichiH_aussiesecond to last question: can i download apps on a normal laptop & then copy them over via usb?14:19
alteregowazd: Yes, I'm a software engineer :)14:19
wazdlcuk: no, seriously, I need you :)14:19
wazdalterego: ok, great! :)14:19
alteregoI spend most of my time coding in C, C#, Ruby & Python14:19
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alteregoI'm also good witGNU/Linux and love Debian ;)14:20
wazdjoin #pushn900 to discuss the idea, maybe it's stupid :)14:21
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lcukwazd whats your twitter15:04
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wazdlcuk: well, andrewzhilin but I'm not gonna use I think :)15:07
lcuknot gonna use what?15:07
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lcukahhh i see15:09
lcuknot a twitterer then - you should link irc with it15:09
lcukand just start blogging your ideas15:09
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RST38hheya, lcuk, wazd15:10
lcukhiya RST38h !15:10
AndrewFBlakKhertan_telework, you around?15:11
lcukRST38h, i saw my calendar and graffiti liqflow on a big display finally.  i know its gonna work (there might even be video out soon showing it :D)15:11
lcuktho somehow a 20foot calendar was a bit scary!15:11
Khertan_teleworkAndrewFBlak: yes i m here15:11
AndrewFBlakI'm trying to build my deb on tablet using py2deb but its not pulling all the files from my src folder and putting them in the tar file15:11
Khertan_teleworkAndrewFBlak: i didn't receive your email ... but this morning i got the one from jaffa about sponsorship which was sent 5 days ago15:12
Khertan_teleworkbut its not pulling all the files from my src folder and putting them in the tar file < normal15:12
lcuklol Khertan_telework but but but but but15:12
RST38hlcuk: On TV you mean?15:12
Khertan_teleworkit s depends on your py "make" file15:12
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lcukRST38h, no, on projector in a couple of presentations15:13
AndrewFBlakso I got something wrong in my make file then15:13
Khertan_teleworklcuk: my nit battery is doing strange things ... and push the cover this morning :)15:13
* RST38h wonders how lcuk will draw on a projected display =)15:13
lcukliqflow small and big
Khertan_teleworki need to change it ...15:13
lcukthe calendar was that big15:13
RST38hlcuk: Is it the same flow going through all three tablets???15:13
lcukRST38h, there was a laser spraycan at odz actually that was cool15:14
Khertan_teleworkarg the n810 can't work only on charger without any battery ?15:14
lcukthe small one is yeah15:14
lcukthe big one isnt15:14
RST38hSo, they are talking to each other over the network to maintain the same flow?15:14
wazdRST38h: heya15:14
lcuknot yet15:14
vesaumm, is the real n900 device 65k color screen? =O15:14
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lcukand there is no real way to get accurate positioning yet15:15
lcuki have an idea involving hundreds of tablets15:15
lcukbut only if i know where people are sat15:15
* lcuk is thinking of using seating plan15:15
lcukand having tablet users enter the seat # into app15:15
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RST38hyou will never get this precise positioning, so it may make sense to just fix positions15:15
lcukand then taking picutre from above15:15
lcukas all tablets are showing messages  and flowing stuff15:15
lcukthe gas fabriteque thing at the summit would be PERFECT for it too15:16
Khertan_teleworkAndrewFBlak: <<< look at the   #Thanks to DareTheHair from for this snippet that recursively builds the file list15:16
lcukits a big round room with lots of height15:16
lcukjust need a vid cam from above15:16
lcuk"we are maemo" scrolling 80s style (H)15:17
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AndrewFBlakKhertan_telework, is there any parts I need to change to that section15:17
vesathere is no official specs about the bit-depth of the n900 screen?15:18
* RST38h got the DHL missed shipment delivery slip15:18
timeless_mbpvesa: why does it matter?15:18
timeless_mbpwhat if we can only render 62197 colors? :)15:18
lcukvesa, i know from experience it is technically capable of displaying full color 16.7m colors, BUT that is not to say the software is sending that bitdepth15:18
vesawell, if one makes graphics for applications it'd be nice to know15:18
RST38hvesa: Apparently 6553615:18
lcukand i dont know which its using15:18
RST38hvesa: Or my stuff would not work on them15:19
vesaatleast the protos need dithering15:19
lcukvesa, yuv is not dithered and fullcolor15:19
AndrewFBlakthink I found the problem15:19
RST38hAndrew: BTW, could you fix the Minimalist theme so that it always goes to the first unread message in a thread?15:20
vesaok. thanks for the replies.15:20
RST38hAndrew: Otherwise 100kB+ needed to load a t.m.o page becomes 200kB+15:20
AndrewFBlakRST38h, it should go to first unread of you click number15:21
RST38hAndrew: Could you do the same for the thread topic?15:22
RST38hAndrew: Mainly asking because the other themes do that, and I have also seen other people complain15:22
AndrewFBlakI'll check with Reggie when I set it up he wanted topic to go ot first post15:23
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* RST38h missed package by 20 minutes yesterday. NOTFAIR15:24
RST38hAndrew: please do15:24
AndrewFBlakalso just checked other themes still go to first post for topi15:24
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RST38hAndrew: wait, I think I know where discrepancy crawls in...15:25
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Khertan_teleworkAndrewFBlak: normally no15:25
AndrewFBlakKhertan_telework, I think I got a probelm with the tabs in that section15:26
Khertan_teleworkarf ... python / tabulation / space ... still the same problem !15:26
Khertan_teleworkthis is why the last version of pygtkeditor include a 'Replace all tabs by space !' :)15:27
RST38hAndrew: It is possible that only subscribed threads do that...Hmmm15:27
AndrewFBlakI take it pythons doesn't like tabs lol15:28
RST38hAndrew: Still, going to the first unread post seems to be a logical thing to do15:28
AndrewFBlakRST38h, only subscribed threads go to last on topic?15:28
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AndrewFBlakRST38h, We have been trying to keep a standard setup on all themes so if others go to first post on topic minimalist will do the same or people will who want to see first post will have to load 2 pagse all the time right now if you don't wnt to load but on page and see last post click numbers not topic15:29
RST38hAndrew: Yes, but if I have never read a thread, why would I have to click twice to see the first post?15:30
RST38hAndrew: And if I have been reading this thread, how likely it is I want to go straight to the start?15:31
AndrewFBlakRST38h, You don't have to click twice just click number beside topic15:33
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RST38hAndrew: But unless you tell me, how would I know I have to click the damn number: :)15:33
AndrewFBlakKhertan_telework, I'm getting an error now telling me in line f for in files: NameError: name 'files' is not defined15:34
AndrewFBlakRST38h, its the same way on all other themes at t.m.o15:34
Khertan_teleworkpastebin your script15:35
Khertan_teleworki ll take a look at it15:35
RST38hAndrew: Could you ask Reggie if he would be willing to swap the behavior?15:35
AndrewFBlakI'm sure its something easy always is with me lol15:36
AndrewFBlakRST38h, I'll ask him if he wants me to swap it15:36
RST38hthanks =)15:36
Khertan_teleworktabulation ... as is say ... use space :)15:37
Khertan_teleworkshould be better15:37
AndrewFBlakRST38h, just remember for atleast now click on number like on main theme15:38
AndrewFBlakI think hte editor i'm using put the tabs in when I copied it15:38
Khertan_teleworkwhat you didn't use pygtkeditor ?15:41
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AndrewFBlakKhertan_telework, well I'm wrting it on my windows computer at work15:42
AndrewFBlakseems to not be working at all now15:43
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lcukholy flock my calendar is massive!!! even bigger than i thought when i was stood there15:44
lcukit really is visible from orbit15:44
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Khertan_teleworkOneDotZero  <<< never heard ... what that ?15:44
RST38hlcuk: Who was generating the video, anyway?15:45
Khertan_teleworkGary has been using the N900 for quite a while <<< serious ?15:45
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lcukKhertan_telework, it was a digital art festival.  i was contacted and asked to create a remote control using the n900 which talks to huge high powered machines to display a massive 90foot display of whatever message is wanted15:45
timeless_mbppeople who actually needed access to hardware were given access15:45
RST38hEhehe, you have got the back of a postcard there!15:46
crashanddieKhertan_telework: c'est ce que je disais tout a l'heure15:46
crashanddieKhertan_telework: ceux qui ont besoin du hardware l'ont deja, et gratuitement en plus15:46
Khertan_teleworkcrashanddie: euh ... je t'ai pas lu15:46
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Khertan_teleworkcrashanddie: mouais ... no comment15:46
crashanddieKhertan_telework: je suis outré15:46
crashanddieKhertan_telework: j'ai pas dis que c'était juste, je ne fais que dire ce que j'ai vu publiquement...15:47
Khertan_teleworkoui oui ... je prefere juste ne pas faire de commentaire15:48
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RST38hAhahaha, lcuk has got tearing!!! :)15:49
RST38hlcuk: The tear nazis will visit your blog soon to complain about tearing! :)15:50
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Khertan_teleworkbye ... i ll try to see the price of a bp-4l battery at a local store ...15:51
RST38hKhertan: May it be cheap and long lived for you!15:52
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lcukRST38h, ill just tell em to use n8x0 then :p which part do you notice15:53
RST38hlcuk: Usually shows during full-screen transitions15:53
* lcuk cant see through vnc properly15:53
RST38hlcuk: When the screen shifts, you can see the characteristic "step".15:53
lcukthats probably my code more than anything :D15:54
RST38hlcuk: Not really, I doubt you do this ON PURPOSE :)15:54
lcukon the way down to london the app  was crashing every 2 minutes it was seriously unstable15:54
lcuki had adjusted one of the blitter functions and changed the Y  offset instead of y height - so it was writing to Y=-1...15:55
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lcukyeah RST38h it took some heavy drinking to work out what was wrong15:56
lcuki had noticed at the last minute that one plane was overrendering 1 line (i said this would happen to wazd the other  day!)15:57
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* SpeedEvil passes lcuk a fencepost to aid his coding.16:04
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RST38hAnyone can remind me if N900 has got a real power plug socket?16:05
RST38hNot the silly micro USB thing?16:05
SpeedEvil - a common term for off-by-one errro16:05
RST38hso, no power plug?16:05
lcukhahaha SpeedEvil :) thank you16:06
RST38hSpeed: Jeez, they have got words for everything =)16:06
lcukall usb16:06
* lcuk vanishes16:06
* AndrewFBlak smacks head on desk16:07
* SpeedEvil calls the royal society for the prevention of cruelty to desks.16:08
AndrewFBlakKhertan_telework, left didn't he16:08
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suihkulokkiRST38h: if you mean does it have a socket to the classic 3.5mm or the newer 2mm nokia charger hole, no it does not have it16:10
RST38hheya javis16:10
RST38hjavis: New OpenTTD is coool16:11
suihkulokkihowever, it comes with a microusb wall charger and a adapter for older chargers16:11
RST38hsuihkulokki: Can we start a petition for inclusion of the 3.5mm socket into all Nokia devices?16:11
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RST38hsuihkulokki: Becase these late adventures in charging are becoming silly =)16:11
suihkulokkiRST38h: no, microusb charging is the new standard all phone manufacturers have agreed on16:12
RST38hsuihkulokki: :(16:12
SpeedEvilThere could have been worse standards.16:12
SpeedEvilBut it sucks docks16:12
SpeedEvilfor docks16:12
RST38hWell, the 2mm plug was pretty bad16:13
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RST38hBut having it charge over USB has got some problems as well. The same N97 for example often *refuses* to charge over USB. You plug it in and it reports a data connection being established16:13
mgedminwhen you plug it into a wall socket?16:14
SpeedEvilthat's an annoying issue yes.16:14
SpeedEvilCharging at high rate throgh normal USB hubs is broken16:14
RST38hmgedmin: apparently so16:14
mgedminoops ouch16:15
RST38hmgedmin: Got a friend with N97, he complained a lot about it16:15
RST38hmgedmin: Some complaints seem to do with broken firmware, others are just generic "does not work as expected" complaints16:15
RST38hNokia Maps current position randomly jumps by hundrends kms for example. Google Maps operate normally.16:16
javispedroRST38h: ta! :)16:16
RST38hjavis: Got a weird bug report to make16:16
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javispedrofeel free :)16:16
till-why didn't they provide both charge methods, over usb and 2mm16:16
RST38hjavis: Any OpenTTD window that appears at the left edge of the display becomes unclosable in full screen mode16:17
till-now all my 2mm chargers will be useless16:17
RST38hjavis: Nothing to do with the software of course, it is just that the N8x0 touch screen sucks at edges16:17
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till-and what if i want usb host mode and power supply16:17
RST38htill: there is a convertor for 2mm charger16:17
SpeedEviltill-: volume inside the case has many costs16:17
AndrewFBlakanyone who uses py2deb see any problem with this ?
SpeedEviltill-: from squeezing other stuff to the extra costs of a hole16:18
till-but i don't want to carry a converter around all the time16:18
RST38hjavis: So, it makes sense to open all windows a little bit away from the left and top edges of the screen16:18
javispedroRST38h: thank god you say that, I was starting to believe my digitizer was ddesensitizing16:18
ccookeOn the plus side: Since every single phone manufacturer in Europe *has* to use a USB charger, it's rather likely we'll see a lot of work go into improvements to it in the next year or two16:18
RST38hjavis: Naah, a known problem16:18
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till-i only have nokia devices with 2mm16:19
ccookehell, it'll mean standardised docks become possible...16:19
javispedronoted, will see what can I do16:19
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RST38hccooke: Gazing into my crystal balls, I already see multiple incompatible chargers using the same micro USB plug...16:19
till-is it possible to use the usb for charging and usb host mode at the same time?16:20
ccookeRST38h: one of the points is that they'd all work with a *standard* usb charger - the exact text actually defines exactly what that is16:20
RST38htill: Not eletrically16:20
javispedrothere's actually a "usb charger class" spec in usb.org16:20
RST38htill: The device either provides power or accepts it, doesn't it?16:21
SpeedEvilRST38h: yes, electrically16:21
Stskeepsat least it seems like you shouldn't use a freerunner to charge a n90016:21
till-well maybe it can work with some sort of special usb hub16:21
ccooketill-: possible, but you'd need drivers for it on the n90016:21
SpeedEvilStskeeps: It's not completely clear where the fault is there. I'd want to check that freerunner with a 500mA load16:21
RST38hSpeed: You mean, it can both provide power and get charged? =)16:21
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SpeedEvilRST38h: I was addressing the multiple incompatible chargers question16:22
RST38hSpeed: Ah16:22
RST38hSpeed: Got it16:22
SpeedEvilThe being in host mode while charging is a seperate question really, and is probably largely a firmware thing.16:23
SpeedEvilI don't think there's a standard for that.16:23
mgedmincompromise: 2 microUSB ports16:23
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* AndrewFBlak thinks dang it I'm an artist not a developer16:23
SpeedEvilThough there are obvious solutions that occur - for example - if a hub called 'nokiacharger' is plugged in - then go to high power charging and host mode16:24
SpeedEvilAnd a charger with a couple of USB device ports on top16:24
RST38hmgedmin: ...and make one of them accept 3.5mm plug =)16:24
crashanddieSpeedEvil: usb has no concept of names16:24
javispedroit does have concept of product names and all that16:24
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: not quite true - but I was speaking generically.16:25
RST38hcrashanddieL actually it does16:25
RST38hcrashanddie: I am not sure if hubs are named though16:25
SpeedEvilRST38h: they can be16:25
mgedminRST38h: no, a 2mm one (because *I* have a gazillion 2mm chargers and not a single 3.5mm one)16:25
javispedroI am not sure if the USB group would accept that :)16:25
mgedmin3.5mm is for audio16:25
ccookeRST38h: they can be.16:25
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SpeedEvilRST38h: they almost never have serial numbers or names, but the only reason for that is cost16:25
RST38hmgedmin: 2mm is commonly considered too flimsy16:25
SpeedEvilAs keyboards can have serial numbers - but rarely do.16:26
* SpeedEvil stabs.16:26
mojocafeis anyone willing and having the time to tell me the first steps with esbox on vmware ?16:26
RST38hmgedmin: the old fashioned 3.5mm was actually just right - thin enough to fit, yet thick enough to be durable16:26
crashanddieRST38h: you have vendor and model information, no specific name16:26
crashanddieRST38h: and having a driver audit for specific strings is probably the worst idea I've heard in quite some time16:26
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: you also can have a device identifier string16:26
ccookeI think all of my 2mm chargers are at least slightly bent..16:26
crashanddieSpeedEvil: which is unique16:26
RST38hcrashanddie: this is sufficient for what is being suggested16:26
crashanddieSpeedEvil: for each device, not per model16:27
mgedminit's true that a third of my gazillion 2mm chargers kinda died16:27
mgedminand a second third look weirdly angled16:27
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: indeed - there is also a serial number16:27
RST38hcrashanddie: you do not really care if this hub is a unique one, as long as it has got the right product/vendor ids16:27
ccookeIf nothing else, every USB device provides a Vendor and Product identifier - each are 16bits IIRC16:27
crashanddieRST38h: my point exactly16:27
* till- wants a nokia usb hub with charging, host mode and 2/4 normal usb interfaces16:27
ccookeand matching on those is enough.16:27
mojocafenoe one? :( *crying*16:27
* RST38h just wants the DHL truck to come already16:28
StskeepsAndrewFBlak: didn't you do some Flash-related project on maemo at some point?16:28
till-can't that be integrated in this microusb-2mm thing?16:28
SpeedEvilI'm simply proposing a nokia charger - with its own nokia USB ID - which can do charging at high rate and let you connect devices at the same time.16:28
AndrewFBlakStskeeps, yeah16:28
crashanddiemojocafe: just read the bloody tutorials16:29
alteregoI wonder if I can get an N900 in time for me going to Iceland next month16:29
SpeedEvilThe _right_ way to do this would be for the USB committee not to be idiots.16:29
mojocafeok, could anyone at least tell me a page with the simpliest Hello World tutorial for diablo !?16:29
StskeepsAndrewFBlak: what exactly was it?16:29
ccookealterego: when are you going?16:29
alteregoMid Oct :)16:29
alteregoIt's not likely I know ^_^16:29
RST38hSpeed: The moment word "commitee" is used, you can't avoid saying "idiots"16:29
mgedminwasn't there like an eclipse plugin for maemo development?16:29
crashanddiemojocafe: #include <stdio.h> int main() { printf("Hello world\n"); return 0 }16:29
RST38hmgedmin: there is, but then using Eclipse is torture16:30
ccookealterego: so far, we have delivery by the 27th of September, 1st of October, 12th of October and 19th of October. Oh, and I think I heard the 1st of November, too.16:30
SpeedEvilRST38h: Regrettably. I've been arguing for some years that a 30V 0.5A option from 'high power' hubs would have killed 99% of the powersupplies on the desk. But meh.16:30
RST38hmgedmin: There is also an Anjuta plugin though, Anjuta looks like a usable choice16:30
ccookealterego: at least a *couple* of those would be fine for you :-)16:30
mgedminRST38h: and scratchbox isn't torture?16:30
alteregoI'm in the UK ;)16:30
mojocafecrash: thnx, but not for scratchbox. i am totally new to the scripting etc. and just downloaded esbox to have unix via vmware on my xp OS16:30
RST38hmgedmin: Not really16:30
AndrewFBlakStskeeps, never finished any of them one was an audio player and others were games and loaders16:30
RST38hmgedmin: Not unless you expect much from it16:30
mgedminRST38h: tell that to mojocafe16:30
ccookealterego: ah, well. Not a single one of those dates *directly* relates to you, then. But hey, who knows :-)16:30
ccookeI'm also in the UK... and while it's likely to be silly, I'm *hoping* for early October16:31
RST38hmgedmin; I will wait on that, until he gets smarter ;)16:31
alteregomojocafe: that one is fine for diablo16:31
crashanddieSpeedEvil: I have to agree with you on that. I've been a big supporter of having one main DC supply running along the house, just one big converter from AC to low voltage DC (48V or something), would eliminate the need of every single device using it's own power supply16:31
RST38hmgedmin: But not, as long as you use SB2 and only compile stuff in it, it is pretty harmless16:31
mgedminignorance and stupidity are two different things16:31
mgedmindoes apt-get install work in SB2 these days?16:32
mgedminit didn't when I tried it16:32
RST38hmgedmin: Worked for me16:32
mgedminhard to compile stuff when you can't get libraries16:32
crashanddiemojocafe: then follow the tutorials on maemo.org16:32
RST38hmgedmin: Yes, it had problems and is still having some problems16:32
alteregomojocafe: there's also a hello world package in the repository you can download and look at in the scratchbox targets.16:32
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mojocafealter: thnx a lot. but now a stupid question: how can i enter these NOT in terminal but in esbox ?16:32
javispedroI like SB1 :)16:32
mgedminmojocafe: what is "esbox"?16:32
RST38hmgedmin: But at least you are no longer forced to access your local project files via NFS :)16:32
AndrewFBlakStskeeps, why do you ask?16:33
javispedroRST38h: I use --bind. The result is still faster than SB2...16:33
mojocafeis esbox = eclipse ?16:33
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mgedminah, _that_'s the eclipse thing I vaguely heard about16:33
RST38hjavis: Dunno, I have not noticed any problems with compilation speed16:33
crashanddiemojocafe: no, esbox is the project that packages eclipse in the manner you're using it16:33
alteregoI've never used the Eclipse plugin.16:33
crashanddiemojocafe: I suggest you learn to use Linux before trying to develop for it16:33
RST38hmgedminL Btw, esbox does not free you from having to use SB16:33
alteregoI use a KVM virtualised environment with SSH+GEDIT16:33
mgedminmojocafe: I assume you already read the documentation on the esbox site?16:34
* RST38h compiles on an Ubuntu host (with sb2), the SCPs and runs on the device16:34
mojocafecrash: ok got it, thnx. i there started a new c++ maemo project and he built me hundreds of files that i do not know what to do about. i would like to start from the first line by myself.16:34
RST38hmojocafe: You start by deleting all those files, then deleting Eclipse16:34
alteregoRST38h: used sshfs on the host side?16:34
mojocafeRST: lol16:34
alteregoWorks a little better for me than scp :)16:35
RST38hmojocafe: Once you do that, get the Maemopad example and examine it closely16:35
crashanddiemojocafe: just download a linux VM and start with that16:35
RST38hmojocafe: Alternatively, you can look at the older HelloWorld example from Maemo3 SDK16:35
RST38hmojocafe: It is much simpler and shows you how to compile stuff without autoconf16:35
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mojocafecrash: esbox and vmware are taht. and it is great. i can even start a maemo emulator. i understood the mandatory filestructure of a maemo project but do not even know where to continue.16:35
crashanddiemojocafe: please use the full nickname of the people you're talking to16:36
RST38halterego: Yea, using sshfs every now and then, but I am used to command line, so scp is not a big deal16:36
StskeepsAndrewFBlak: cos of mojocafe16:36
mojocaferst38h: that might be a good idea !!!!16:36
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StskeepsAndrewFBlak: wants to do a simple loader i think16:36
javispedroRST38h: I mount the dev folder in the device using NFS. works great.16:37
AndrewFBlakI thought mojocafe was web browser based16:37
javispedro(for gdb sessions, since gdb finds the source)16:37
crashanddiemojocafe: I know what esbox is, please don't be a smartass when asking for help. I'm telling you you're taking things too quickly. Get yourself used to writing a small app, no fancy project development tools, just gcc/python, whatever floats your boat16:37
mojocafeandrewFBlak: coreect but i want to develop it as fullscreen application for my n80016:37
RST38hjavis: I am not that advanced...16:37
RST38hjavis: Besides, I have found long time ago that printf() is sufficient for debugging and does not add all that much to debugging time16:38
crashanddieRST38h: lol16:38
RST38hYou just use it STRATEGICALLY and you are fine16:38
javispedroit's great for finding your way around :)16:38
mojocafeok. thanks.16:38
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crashanddieRST38h: one of my projects generates 15megs of logs in the first 30 seconds of startup16:39
javispedroactually, I consider oprofile a godsend.16:39
RST38hcrashanddie: Bad strategy! :)16:39
lcukmojocafe, also, with your fullscreen app, make sure user has an easy way out - if you dont and they get a phone call they will be annoyed16:39
RST38hjavis: Brought to you by Intel, really16:39
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crashanddieRST38h: that's why you can set the debug flags ;)16:39
javispedroDidn't know. I've been playing a bit with the pin stuff lately16:39
RST38hjavis: If Intel had not included those hw performance counters into its CPUs, nobody would :)16:39
AndrewFBlakmojocafe, are you wanting to have peoples settings on your site carry over to the tablet application?  I mean having the Flash Items on tablet is real easy linking which ones show from users site account is only hard part16:40
javispedroah, you mean _indirectly_ :)16:40
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crashanddieRST38h: just saying, a good logging library is needed, and a lot more performing than say, if (DEBUG == true) printf(bla)16:40
mojocafeAndrewFBlak: nah forget. I'll check other stuff first. Thanks a lot for your help and support.16:41
RST38hcrashanddie: Whatever logging library you implement, if you are dropping 15MB of logs on startup, you will still lose16:41
RST38hcrashanddie: As a short term solution, I can suggest using ZLib, it will be quick to add16:41
crashanddieRST38h: this is a multi million project that is being used by multiple governments ;)16:41
javispedroAlso, at least when I talk about "printf debugging" I don't mean "proper logging". Sometimes I abuse and do "Printf("a1\n");16:41
RST38hcrashanddie: And all these will lose =)16:41
crashanddieright :)16:41
RST38hjavis: I use 111, 222, 333, 444, ...16:42
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RST38hjavis: Just to see where exactly it fucks up16:42
crashanddiearrogant IRC prat tells successful company how to write their code, news at 1116:42
RST38hbut it is one of situations where GDB is of some use though16:42
* javispedro considers that a bad habit though. learnt from the palm days.16:42
alteregoI use, 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, :P16:42
RST38hIt is good at pointint out the crahs points :)16:42
alteregoNice when you need to recurse into a function call :P16:43
RST38hcrashanddie: Ah, ok, continue generating 15MB logs at startup16:43
RST38hWho am I to tell you not to... :)16:43
crashanddieRST38h: in debug mode, I really don't see any issue with that ;)16:43
javispedroI don't either. Just call it a "trace" and be done with it :)16:44
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crashanddielol javispedro, fair enoughj16:44
crashanddieanyway, time for cancer16:44
crashanddielcuk: is the weather shite in gunchester as well?16:44
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RST38hMeanwhile: Google Street View Cars Prowl Outer Herbides!16:44
* SpeedEvil ponders openstreetview again.16:45
alteregoI wanna do some augmented reality stuff.16:45
RST38hdrugs, you mean?16:46
lbtholland is good for that16:46
lcukcrashanddie, sunny windy.  outlook is ok so far today16:46
javispedrobtw, does anyone know a good (fast, not perl) tcp over udp tunnel and udp hole punching?16:47
lcukhope the remaining clouds clear tho16:47
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lcuktcp over udp tunnel?16:47
lcukisnt that tcp itself16:47
alteregoThat's what I was thinking :)16:47
javispedronot really. tcp uses ip.16:47
lcukthats like being asked to use udp code but put in delivery confirmation and resending :p16:47
javispedroit makes no sense I know. It does when you factor in two hosts between two NATs each.16:47
lcukudp uses ip16:47
javispedrosee (which is what I've been using)16:48
lcukfor router problems, you could just use carrier pigeons16:48
javispedrobut being in perl, in requires a chroot, and is sloooow.16:48
lcukits always going to be slow16:48
lcukyou have to attack from both sides and hope you get a match16:48
lcukand its a flood attack basically isnt it16:48
javispedrofor the startup phase at least16:49
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javispedrobut after that it should be "as fast as a direct udp connecting".16:49
RST38hHmmm...Combined Canon+SE device to be announced on Sep 2116:49
crashanddiejavispedro: it's never going to be as fast16:49
crashanddiejavispedro: you have an extra layer, atop of UP16:49
javispedrocrashanddie: ah, right.16:50
ccookeRST38h: not necessarily - aren't those seperate announcements that happen to have the same date?16:50
javispedrobut no "random" overheads due to flooding16:50
crashanddiehowever, having it being run by a perl script isn't helping the whole speed thing16:50
RST38hccooke: apparently they are preparing a joint announcement16:51
javispedrothat's what I say. It starts to consume a lot of memory and nearlt 50% of the cpu just by sshing in and doing "ps ax".16:51
lcukflooding is only at connection time16:51
crashanddieRST38h: joint announcement? In Amsterdam?16:51
javispedrolcuk: yes, afaiu16:51
RST38hOr maybe I am reading too much into it16:51
lcukonce you have the "connection"/"session" isnt it normal speed as you say16:51
alteregoI want to write an app that downloads my friends profile pics from facebook/whereever and uses those images in my phone book.16:51
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X-Fadealterego: Isn't that what Maemo5 does already?16:52
ccookeTCP over UDP is almost as fast as raw TCP - the only times it'll be slower are when you're sending packets that are larger than your MTU - and even then, it's only a few percent slower.16:52
alteregoX-Fade: does it?16:53
ccookeperl ought to be able to saturate a 100Mbit link at the least, probably gigabit.16:53
javispedroccooke: on a tablet16:53
ccookejavispedro: ah, well. n810?16:53
X-Fadealterego: Well, at least it seems to get the from your gtalk contacts etc?16:53
alteregoI don't use gtalk16:53
ccookejavispedro: if you can't saturate a 10M connection, something's wrong.16:53
alteregoAnd none of my friends use it either :P16:54
X-Fadealterego: in the demo youtube video you see that.16:54
ccookejavispedro: it *should* be fast enough for that.16:54
X-Fadealterego: So I guess you can plug in every telepathy provider?16:54
javispedroccooke: well. it felt *so slow* (ssh) than I didn't even try a NX/VNC session.16:54
ccookeThat's a shame :-.16:54
alteregoHow does it know that facebook friend A is contact 1?16:55
ccookeFor pure networking, perl is actually pretty optimised16:55
javispedroccooke: i fault perl, since I'm using the totally unoptimised debian binary16:55
javispedrocompiled for armv4 iirc.16:55
ccookejavispedro: thing is, perl has a pretty good built-in optimiser. When you're doing networking code, it should be *fast*.16:56
X-Fadealterego: Don't know if there is a facebook provider for telepathy.16:56
ccookejavispedro: it's not like user code where you shunt around strings and dynamic variables. It'll be basically working on ints and never casting...16:56
javispedroccooke: well, maybe It's just not good for interactive stuff but has good throughput. will try with NX when I get back.16:56
ccookejavispedro: of course, that assumes that the perl script was well written16:56
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alteregoX-Fade: there is for libpurple, I thought they were kind of the same thing .. Kind of .. :)16:57
ccookejavispedro: the problem is, tcp over udp is the best fit for interactive use there is when tunneling.16:57
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ccookewhat's the script you use?17:00
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X-Fadealterego: It seems that msn support is being uploaded to extras-devel as we speak.17:03
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X-Fadeah, and facebookchat was already uploaded, but failed to build.17:04
RST38hX-Fade: Any news of BT HID support?17:04
X-FadeRST38h: How should I know?17:04
X-FadeIt seems that Jonnylamb is doing a good job ;)17:05
ccookejavispedro: tried it with debug enabled?17:06
Stskeepsfor fremantle?17:06
* Stskeeps drools17:06
RST38hX-Fade: Well, I hoped somebody could upload it to extras-devel as well =)17:06
RST38hAfter all, it is said to be easily addable17:06
javispedroccooke: I was thiking just about that. it did print sequence numbers for each package received, so I guess the answer is "yes".17:06
X-FadeRST38h: Well, I guess that when hardware is generally available, someone will scratch that itch.17:06
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ccookejavispedro: and nothing about missing packets?17:07
javispedroccooke: none that I could see.17:07
ccookejavispedro: drat. The code isn't setting off any warning bells in my head - which of course doesn't mean it's *good*, but...17:07
javispedroccooke: i'm open to suggestions :)17:07
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javispedro(about alternative programs)17:08
javispedroI will give this one another go, but not today17:08
ccookejavispedro: well, I used openvpn on the nokia a while back17:08
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ccookejavispedro: which also uses tcp-over-udp, but was definitely okay for interactive use17:09
javispedrocon you use that between two nat'd hosts without an extra host?17:09
ccookejavispedro: it can be used in several modes, but IIRC one will provide that.17:09
javispedroalso, being able to use it without root is a nice plus.17:10
ccookeah, now that's something that openvpn won't solve, unfortunately17:10
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* GeneralAntilles stabs Comcast.17:11
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ccookeTechnically, there's no reason you couldn't run a single-connection-single-port client as a user17:11
ccookebut as far as I know it hasn't been done17:12
javispedroyeah. Well, there's the script I sent you, which I found nice. Using ssh then I can multiplex in any extra ports as required.17:12
ccooke... actually...17:13
ccookeOne moment.17:13
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AndrewFBlakI'm trying to use py2deb but all my files are not making it into the tar file can I just add the ones that are not going in manually or will that not work?17:14
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Stskeepshm, where was the packages interface again? as in, view queue, new builds etc17:21
lopzhi ;)17:21
Stskeepsi went for, silly me :P17:21
X-FadeStskeeps: Although the new builds part is changing at the moment ;)17:21
javispedrohum. someone built minimal libesd->pulseaudio, good news :)17:22
wazdNew Mer candidate? :)17:22
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Stskeepspossibly, but it has to be hackable :P17:23
javispedrothey don't even list what cpu it uses.17:23
acoutohi all17:24
RST38hwazd: It is an x86 device17:24
RST38hwazd: Will probably run Ubuntu or Moblin17:24
javispedrofor 177$?17:24
RST38hWell it says " The player weighs 440grams, supports USB 2.0, and works with Windows Vista, XP, and Windows 2000."17:25
wazdRST38h: noway :)17:25
SpeedEvilThere are some _really_ cheap lower end x86 chips coming out17:25
SpeedEvil'works with' != runs17:25
wazdRST38h: I think it "supports" Win Vist etc17:25
javispedroRST38h: considering the rest of the announcement reads like an advertisement, my guess is "the music+adware software we force you to use works with..."17:25
wazdRST38h: UMPC for $200? :D17:26
RST38hwell it is made by brando, so it has to be cheap17:26
RST38hwazd: more like a keyboardless netbook17:26
RST38hjavis: maybe, yes17:26
javispedroeither way. an x86 tablet for $177, capable of running Windows? I would buy it in an instant.17:26
wazdRST38h: noway :) There should be hell of a noise then :)17:26
javispedroit's 7''.17:27
SpeedEviljavispedro: you can get that on ebay.17:27
SpeedEviljavispedro: Just not very new ones :)(17:27
javispedroSpeedEvil, :)17:27
RST38hwazd: Atoms run fanless17:27
wazdRST38h: no, I mean "Blog" noise :)17:28
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RST38hwazd: btw, ru_nokia17:29
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RST38hwazd: empty for now, but rumor says it will be the "official blog"17:29
javispedrosee, a x86 7'' tablet17:30
javispedrowell, not 7'', but approx ;)17:30
javispedroand it costs $43917:30
RST38hwho knows...17:30
acoutoi have a question : "i wanna to execute a gps example. I installed the scratchbox and maemo's sdk and I can not compile . says he doesnt have the lib gps.h, how do I install this lib?"17:30
javispedro"a gps example"?17:31
javispedroah, using libgpsbt17:32
javispedroI don't have libgpsbt in my fremantle sdk17:33
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javispedroare you targeting diablo or fremantle?17:33
AndrewFBlakwonder why i keep getting logged out of when using extras assistant17:34
javispedroacouto: "apt-get install osso-gpsd-dev"17:34
RST38h'cause logins are still broken in mysterious ways17:34
qwerty12AndrewFBlak: https://17:35
RST38hSo far, X-Fade managed to persuade me that it is all because of web caching, but I am getting doubtful again17:35
X-FadeAndrewFBlak: because that is garage.17:35
acoutojavispedro, i ll install17:35
X-FadeAndrewFBlak: Which technically isn't ;)17:35
AndrewFBlakok i keep getting logged out of Garage :)17:35
X-FadeAndrewFBlak: Different sessions at least.17:35
acoutojavispedro, osso-gpsd-dev is already the newest version.17:36
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javispedrothen pastebin your compiler output, since that package provides gps.h17:37
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acoutojavispedro, I think I'm not knowing how to compile. I just "gcc -o"17:38
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crashanddiehow is gcc -o not compiling?17:46
crashanddieqwerty12: shouldn't you be at school or something?17:46
qwerty12crashanddie: lessons finished for the day17:46
crashanddieqwerty12: then shouldn't you be selling drugs?17:46
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qwerty12crashanddie: that comes later17:46
crashanddieqwerty12: selling stolen PS3s at the moment?17:46
crashanddieebaying russian wives?17:46
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qwerty12Wow, who gave you my eBay username?17:47
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javispedroacouto: actually, gps.h is in /usr/include,17:47
javispedroyour problem is that both gtk.h _and_ gpsbt.h are missing17:48
javispedrogps.h is the only one it finds17:48
* javispedro sighs :)17:48
crashanddieacouto: -I/usr/lib/gtk or something17:49
crashanddieor /usr/include17:49
crashanddiecan't remember17:49
javispedroor `pkg-config --cflags gtk+-2.0' iirc17:49
crashanddiejavispedro: that too :)17:49
javispedrobetter yet: grab the maemopad makefile and read how they invoke gcc.17:49
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wazd_lol, my internet cord works like water pipe or something :)17:50
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qwerty12In Soviet Russia, internet disconnects you17:51
wazd_If I'll squeeze it - internet stops working :D17:51
crashanddiewazd_: you use your internet to make girls wearing white tshirts wet? Then yes, your internet cord is the same as my water hose17:52
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hexa--is it possible to get maemo 5.0 installed into qemu?17:53
javispedroit's not released.17:54
hexa--oh ok17:54
hexa--all these news about n900 and it is not released yet :D17:54
javispedrothere's a beta sdk released17:54
javispedrowhich runs parts of the gui (both as native i386 and user-space qemu armel), but that's not maemo5.17:55
hexa--hm okay, so i'll be patient :)17:55
hexa--thanks for the input17:55
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* AndrewFBlak slaps the garage18:03
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AndrewFBlakI don't get my garage never has any problem keeping me logged in until today18:09
javispedroMurphy's Law?18:12
* RST38h wonders why all these java-based web "solutions" insist on setting webpage icon to SUN logo18:12
javispedroRST38h: same reason my ISP had the "Netscape web server" favicon for years.18:12
RST38hjavis: Let me guess... "ignorance"?18:12
javispedroa mix of ignorance, lazyness, and expecting your users are ignorants are the same time :)18:13
javispedro*at the same time18:13
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RST38hStudent Kills Intruder with Samurai Sword after PlayStation, Laptops Stolen18:14
javispedroyay revenge18:15
timeless_mbpRST38h: server pride :)18:18
timeless_mbppart of the reason though was to prevent the server logs from filling up w/ 404s18:18
javispedrodreamhost now implemented a policy where a 404 to a "favicon.ico" file results in the webserver creating the file (empty content).18:19
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AndrewFBlakok this makes no since why garage wont remember me even if whn I try multple computers18:21
javispedroSuicide of France Telecom employee 23rd in 18 months, triggering government concern18:21
javispedroI knew carriers were more evil than the devil, but this...18:21
RST38h"Can be easily summoned with an enchanted dagger made of a pure metal. Since there is little limitations on when or where this ritual can take place, Dimensional Shamblers have become a favourite species to summon for many wizards and / or cultists."18:22
RST38hjavis: They should at least inflict some damage on the employer before they suicide, otherwise it sounds like waste18:23
javispedro"A 32-year-old employee working in the bill collection service threw herself from a sixth-floor window of the Paris building where she worked Friday evening shortly after learning that she would get a new boss."18:23
javispedroI think "that" qualifies as damage ;)18:23
Stskeepsjavispedro: France Telecom is obviously Hell Inc.18:23
qwerty12Only if she smashed the window before jumping out of it.18:24
javispedroI wonder if the "new boss" was steve ballmer or someone equally evil.18:25
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RST38hMust have been the Tentacled One Himself!18:26
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qwerty12RST38h: Didn't you hear? He also killed himself after hearing that he would have to work there, too18:27
RST38hqwerty: The Tentacled One is eternal, of course.18:27
qwerty12But this is France Telecom18:27
javispedroyes, they're even more eternal.18:28
qwerty12No one fucks with them unless they're about to kill themselves18:28
javispedroif the fine print of your average phone contract is to be believed.18:28
RST38hTelecoms may well be controlled by supernatural forces18:28
RST38hHas anyone ever seen a head of a national telecom company in person? I mean, as a live person?18:28
crashanddiewhat did quim eat this morning?18:28
crashanddiesome superwarior cereals?18:29
RST38hSee? For all we know they may be Deep Ones18:29
crashanddieVindicative Manager syndrome pops?18:29
crashanddieRST38h: yup18:29
RST38hcrashanddie: What happened to Quim?18:29
crashanddieRST38h: I met the head of BT and head of FT18:29
crashanddiewhich are both international, I guess18:29
RST38hcrashanddie: how many tentacles on each?18:29
crashanddie6 on average18:29
chxwhere do you guys get audio cables (to plug in a headphone and a mic) for the n810?18:30
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crashanddieI quit?18:30
RST38hyou did. for revealing the number of tentacles BT chief has18:30
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crashanddiewell it is from a BT landline18:30
RST38hanyways, what is up with Quim?18:30
crashanddieI dunno18:30
RST38ht.m.o finally got on his nerves?18:30
crashanddiehis answers are a bit rough, to say the least18:31
crashanddie"Guys, we can't micromanage every detail for everybody. Apply your common sense, don't abuse the system and everything will be fine. Thank you!"18:31
crashanddie"Maybe it's me, but 3) sounds like a no brainer [...]"18:32
qwerty12It's your fault.18:32
RST38hwell, isn't he right?18:32
crashanddiewell, no18:32
crashanddiehe misreads an email,  and then tries to make us look like idiots18:32
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, that sounds like one of my statements that's not intended to be brusque being interpreted as such.18:32
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crashanddiehi crashanddie_18:33
qwerty12crashanddie_: like crashanddie, you suck18:33
AndrewFBlackdoes the garage extras assistant work for everyone else or is just me?18:33
crashanddieqwerty12: stfu,  kiddo18:33
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qwerty12crashanddie_ is too pussy to answer18:33
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qwerty12He has to get crashanddie to do it for him18:34
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_crashanddie_happy now?18:34
javispedroAndrewFBlack: I can get to the package upload form. I don't have a package to upload though.18:34
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crashanddieGeneralAntilles & qwerty12: there's a guy who just wanted advice/point out something based on the very good premise that it's not his money, and he just wanted to know which options he had18:35
crashanddieand quim just tells him he lacks common sense, and pollutes THE FUCKING MAILING LISTS?18:35
RST38hcrash: url?18:35
crashanddiedunno, check your inbox18:35
timeless_mbpwhich list?18:36
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crashanddieit's a mailing list, helloooooo, half the stuff that goes on in there is just ranting is stupid stuff18:36
crashanddieit's like IRC on crack18:36
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, hello, overreaction.18:36
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: I can't get some IDM code to work, just venting, nevermind18:36
crashanddieqwerty12: lmao @ comment on stephen's nomination18:37
* javispedro searches the internets for superwarior cereals18:37
timeless_mbppost 7 isn't talking about polluting the mailinglist18:38
timeless_mbpit's saying don't try to rip nokia off for 1000usd18:38
qwerty12crashanddie: :)18:38
ccookejavispedro: you might have more luck search for supperwarrior ones18:38
javispedroreplacing one typo with another? :)18:39
ccooketimeless_mbp: "What, so you can't fly first class?"18:39
* timeless_mbp sighs @c1018:39
ccookejavispedro: argh.18:39
qwerty12ccooke: That's called "Viagra"...18:39
timeless_mbpccooke: i can't fly at all :)18:39
ccooketimeless_mbp: oh?18:39
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timeless_mbpnokia won't pay for me to go :)18:39
AndrewFBlackthis make no since some times I can get to step 4 before garage logs me out and sometimes I just get loged right back out when I log in18:40
crashanddieccooke: timeless has a physical condition which prevents him from taking the plane18:40
qwerty12timeless_mbp: Ask them to pay for your face change operation and we'll vouch for you as a community member18:40
crashanddieccooke: as such, he has to go everywhere on a push-bike18:40
ccookewell, nor me. Although I know for certain that's a good decision on their part :-)18:40
javispedro"Chinock Reposatory"... :D18:40
timeless_mbpjavispedro: where'd you find that?18:40
javispedrotmo post18:40
timeless_mbpcrashanddie: well, i do have a physical condition that prevents me from driving a car unaided ;-)18:40
* timeless_mbp needs glasses :(18:40
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ccookeI have a physical condition that prevents me from driving a car unmodified... :-)18:41
crashanddieqwerty12: why did you remove the "rt" part of your last name?18:41
GeneralAntillesccooke, a Need for Speed? ;)18:41
qwerty12crashanddie: I didn't want to be associated with people like you18:42
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crashanddieGeneralAntilles: he said unmodified, not under the influence18:42
ccookeGeneralAntilles: Heh. No, I'm too big. There isn't a car I can drive without having the front seat ripped out and bolted on further back :-)18:42
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crashanddieqwerty12: so it's not Faheem Pervertz?18:42
ccookeWhich is the main reason I've never learned18:42
crashanddieccooke: how big?18:42
GeneralAntillesccooke, ever driven an American SUV?18:43
ccookecrashanddie: 6'8", but built like an average (so, you know. Overweight) geek scaled up.18:43
crashanddiegeeks aren't overweight18:43
crashanddiewell, I guess geeks are usually in the extremes18:43
ccookecrashanddie: yeah, painfully thin is about as common18:44
crashanddieI was scared that if I sneezed, qwerty12 would fly away18:44
ccookeGeneralAntilles: Tried one once. They're not *particularly* common in the UK, of course.18:44
qwerty12But, yet, I'd need a fucking bulldozer to even move crashanddie an inch18:44
* javispedro uses a bulldozer to move around18:45
ccookeGeneralAntilles: I could get my legs under the steering wheel, but having them above the pedals was painful to the point of muscle spasm. Which they told me wouldn't be a good thing for a driver :-)18:45
GeneralAntillesccooke, clearly you need to go bigger, then. ;)18:45
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ccookeGeneralAntilles: naturally!18:45
lcukqwerty12, and crashanddie has superhero powers - he just holds out his hand and you fly back 10 foot18:46
GeneralAntillesWikipedia. . . .18:46
GeneralAntillesI love it when people drive-by spam deletion proposals.18:46
ccookeGeneralAntilles: oh dear. Which article?18:46
AndrewFBlackwell it took over 100 tries but i got extras assistant to take my files lol18:48
chx <= will this work with the N810?18:49
crashanddiejavispedro & GeneralAntilles: there's no discussion on the talk page about the deletion18:49
Stskeepscanola probably won't meet notability18:49
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, right, because all they did was add a deletion notice to the top and claim it's not notable.18:50
javispedroyay deletionpedia18:50
GeneralAntillesI don't know what purpose deleting articles serves.18:50
GeneralAntillesBusy bodies with too much goddamn time on their hands.18:50
SpeedEvilThe motto of the AIW is Conservata veritate, which translates to, "With the preserved truth". This motto reflects the inclusionist desire to change Wikipedia only when no knowledge would be lost as a result.18:50
GeneralAntillesOvi Maps seems to have incomplete lists of everything.18:51
GeneralAntillesOf the dozen post offices in this area, it only lists 4.18:51
javispedroGeneralAntilles: me neither. and don't get me started why Grand Moff Tarkin deserves an article but every other piece of software in existence does not.18:51
qwerty12GeneralAntilles: The guy's name is "Miami33139". Go find him and beef it out.18:51
Proteousit's your fault for having so many frickin post offices18:51
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, Miam scares the shit out of me quite honestly. :P18:52
GeneralAntillesProteous, yeah, USPS is AWESOME.18:52
GeneralAntillesYou just wish you had 12 UPS stores.18:52
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* GeneralAntilles is off to the post office.18:52
Proteouschoices choices18:53
crashanddiew00t w00t, let's fight the Wikipedia trolls
RST38hlets not.18:55
javispedrogood luck.18:55
javispedroI personally already bookmarked the future Deletionpedia url.18:55
javispedro"Andrew Lih, a deletionist-turned inclusionist, observes a cultural shift from Wikipedia's initial expansion in that it has become more cautious. He changed his position when an article he created about the social networking website Pownce was speedily deleted by another administrator as advertising."18:57
RST38hAssociation of Illusionist Wikipedians...18:57
javispedroformally, this means there can be no true deletionist.18:57
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RST38hpresently, it means that just about any wikipedian is an illusionist =)18:58
javispedro"The article on South African restaurant Mzoli's was nominated for deletion after being created by Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales,[27] who said that supporters of deletion displayed "shockingly bad faith behavior."18:58
Myrttithere is no such thing as a deletionist18:58
Myrttithere's only eventualists18:58
RST38hall articles created by Wales should be deleted.18:59
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javispedroRST38h: delete wikipedia itself then :)18:59
RST38hafter all he tainted himself. burn, Burn. BURN IT ALL!!!18:59
RST38hjavis: Good idea19:00
* RST38h laughs diabolically19:00
qwerty12Despite being a geek myself, I actually find it sad and laughable that there's fucking drama to be found on Wikipedia.19:00
RST38hqwerty: This is known as "Geeks find out about social interaction"19:01
javispedrothere's drama in my soup too.19:01
javispedroRST38h: more like "geeks getting to rule the world"19:01
* RST38h prefers lurkmore/etc19:01
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RST38hAnd scp of course19:01
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RST38hjavis: *and* finding about social interaction in the process.19:01
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Myrttiqwerty12: which is why I'm not going to be elected to the Finnish Wikipedia ArbCom anymore19:02
javispedroinstead of political debates between abortion or evolution, we would get inclusionism vs deletionism19:02
* RST38h wishes US daycare/school would be more like in .RU19:02
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RST38hThat would greatly decrease social awkwardness at the later stages19:02
crashanddiegeeks getting to shape what history will remember, now that's scary19:02
qwerty12Myrtti: :)19:02
javispedrocrashanddie: yay, "the geek age" :)19:03
Myrttiit's actually why I haven't really contributed to it at all in two years19:03
qwerty12I just don't get all the drama over a encyclopedia. "Ooh, let's ban him! Delete this article! This guy is a spammer!"19:03
qwerty12Jesus Christ, get a fucking life19:03
qwerty12(And this is me saying that...)19:04
RST38hqwerty: Everybody thinks his assho^H^H^H^Hopinion is the most important one, that's all19:04
javispedroqwerty12: it's all about ruling the world :) especially when your average reporter is going to grab his "facts" from there :)19:04
qwerty12javispedro: I thought that was The Onion? :)19:04
Myrttiknowledge is power19:04
qwerty12Myrtti: :D19:04
RST38hqwerty: This feeling should really get surgically removed at early stages of kid's growth19:04
RST38hqwerty: Unfortunately, it does not, at least not in the US19:05
RST38hqwerty: So, 18-20 years later, you get this crap.19:05
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rm_youdaycare in the US is useless19:06
luke-jrRST38h: huh? surgically remove a feeling?19:06
rm_youI'd rather have my children wandering around my house unsupervised19:06
rm_youthen when they find a knife and cut themselves they damn well learn not to do it again19:07
RST38hmore or less, yes19:07
luke-jrrm_you: lol19:07
RST38hBut it is not too late to remove all the warning labels ;)19:07
luke-jrI think that's how my daughter learned not to stick her hand in the trash ;)19:08
RST38hluke-jr: So, what was hiding in the trash? =)19:08
rm_youyeah, whatever happened to the days of "let your kids touch a hot stove and burn their hand, THEN tell them not to do it"?19:08
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rm_younowadays kids don't learn the stove is hot till they move out and go try to cook in their college dorm19:08
luke-jrRST38h: metal can, opened19:09
crashanddieMyrtti: xkcd fight:
RST38hluke_jr: Oh. Painful.19:09
rm_youand they're like, omg this really IS hot19:09
luke-jrrm_you: pfft, make your kids cook meals for you when they turn 719:09
RST38hrm_you: There was a story in some blog once, about the author taking his 12 year old daughter to the window19:09
* rm_you things it is somewhat ironic that he holds this view and IS a college student19:09
zaheermrm_you, what's a stove again? ;)19:09
luke-jrhaha, so true19:10
luke-jrmost kids probably only  use microwaves19:10
rm_youi was taught the old way19:10
rm_youapparently i'm an exception19:10
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MyrttiI use microwave for cooking my porridge mainly19:10
RST38hrm_you: And saying "See, there is probably 1-2 million people you can see from this window. And not a single one of them GIVES ANY SHIT ABOUT YOU and your feelings."19:10
luke-jrmy wife trashed our microwave years ago19:10
rm_youlike the first time i fried an AT motherboard by plugging the wires in backwards19:10
MyrttiI want an inverter microwave19:10
rm_youor shocked myself on a power supply that wasn't drained properly before attempting to repair it19:10
luke-jrRST38h: where was this window that you can see 2 million people from it?19:11
rm_youRST38h: rofl. win19:11
RST38hluke-jr: Moscow. 15mil total population (estimated)19:11
luke-jrrm_you: meh, who's scared of a little shock?19:11
rm_youluke-jr: well, me, *now*19:11
luke-jrI used to electrocute myself with AC for fun19:11
crashanddieair conditioning? cool19:11
luke-jrAC power, idiot19:12
RST38hLiving dangerously? =)19:12
crashanddieanonymous coward power?19:12
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luke-jrbuilding up immunity for the inevitable electrocution? :P19:12
rm_youAir Conditioning is usually written A/C for some reason19:12
javispedrohm... anonymous coward power...19:12
rm_younot sure why19:12
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luke-jrAlternating Current, in case you really don't know...19:12
* RST38h had burns for three months after trying to fix an oscilloscope power plug, without unplugging the other end of the cable19:12
luke-jrRST38h: O.o19:13
crashanddieif slashdot could harness AC power they'd never have to pay for energy bills ever again19:13
luke-jrRST38h: perhaps my power source was filtered in some way19:13
rm_youcrashanddie: lol19:13
luke-jrit was the two knobs at the top of an electronics kit...19:13
luke-jrI'd attach wires to them19:13
luke-jrthen lick my fingers and grab the wire ends19:13
rm_youyeah, though i think the charge in the transformer in like, a CRT monitor for instance, is way more dangerous than just the average AC outlet19:13
luke-jrI suppose the wire gagues might have limited current19:13
crashanddie"oh, we're losing power, quick, release an article about ${OS}" (where ${OS} equals Linux/OSX/Windows)19:13
RST38hluke-jr: You may have had a low-current protection installed19:14
lcukor hes composed entirely of playdoh19:14
rm_youit's amperage that can actually kill you, not voltage, right?19:14
RST38hgoood idea19:14
crashanddierm_you: correct19:14
RST38hrm_you: yes, except that given the same resistance, twice the voltage will give twice the amperage19:14
* rm_you wants to be an engineer. sometimes. usually weekends after payday.19:15
RST38hrm_you: luke probably had 110V, I had 220V :)19:15
luke-jryeah, 110 I imagine19:15
RST38hIf you want to be really wikipedian, you should also take into account the power source characteristics19:15
crashanddiewho on earth really wants to be a wikipedian?19:15
RST38hBut we can safely ignore that with plain vanilla power outlets19:15
javispedroso, does being an engineer imply some electrocutions, or does having an electrocution imply being an engineer someday?19:15
rm_yougah gotta run to lunch19:15
crashanddiejavispedro: neither19:16
rm_youi'd guess the former19:16
RST38hjavis: Depends on which engineer you wanna be19:16
rm_youthe latter would make for a better joke tho :P19:16
rm_youanywho, i'm out19:16
RST38hjavis: Civil engineering implies being crushed under some heavy duty solids19:16
RST38hjavis: Electrical engineering implies soldering iron burns and some electrocution19:16
RST38hjavis: Nuclear engineering ... well you get my drift19:17
* RST38h suddenly thinks of Social Engineering19:17
* javispedro did too.19:17
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crashanddieRST38h: nuclear engineer problably means you'll never talk about it with your kids19:26
RST38hcrashanddie: surprisingly, not19:27
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RST38hcrashanddie: there was an epic thread once, with a physicist dealing with nuclear non-proliferation explaining to forum geeks how A-bomb works. In detail.19:28
RST38hcrashanddie: most of this stuff is not secret any more, you just need to read a proper book19:28
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crashanddieand software engineer probably means that you will start dating not based on looks or attraction, but more probably simply because the number of prospects is starting to get slimmer by the year19:29
RST38hyou start dating in software, over the internet? ;)19:30
crashanddieactually, technically speaking, at the moment I'm having a phone affair19:30
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RST38hswitch her to tcp/ip to lower costs!19:31
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crashanddieRST38h: oh we're unlimited, no problem there ;)19:31
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jrochalizardo, hi19:44
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genewitchis there a way to tell the RSS feed reader app that i don't want it to update, refresh, download, or otherwise use 100% of the CPU while i am actually reading the feeds?20:06
javispedroKill Wi-Fi.,20:06
genewitchthen it just pops up a window to connect20:07
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genewitchand having it manually update completely breaks the functionality of an RSS feed reader.20:08
genewitchnot to mention i have to wait the 2 minutes while it updates20:09
mgedmindoes the RSS reader still expire all unread posts when it auto-refreshes, or was that fixed?20:10
lizardojrocha: hi20:11
genewitchmgedmin: it retains older ones20:11
mgedminoh, good20:11
genewitchi don't know how many it keeps, it drops older ones off eventually20:11
jrochalizardo, I'm gonna bother you more on the gtk.HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_BUTTON20:11
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jrochalizardo, I gotta do the following: hildon.Button((gtk.HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_HEIGHT, hildon.BUTTON_ARRANGEMENT_VERTICAL)20:12
lizardojrocha: if I can help :)20:12
jrochaand while this works20:12
jrochait is ugly20:12
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jrochanow, I understand that the size is implemented on the gtk part20:12
jrochabut I really think you should consider overriding this behavior so we have: hildon.SIZE_FINGER_HEIGHT20:13
jrochait just makes more sense to people used to work with PyGTK20:13
jrochaimho of course :)20:13
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jrochalizardo, what are your thought on this, cara? :)20:14
lizardojrocha: while I agree it makes sense, let me try to show you the other way.... the first argument are somethings like "Gtk sizes for Hildon" the seconde is just arrangement for hildon buttons)20:14
lizardojrocha: so gtk-enums has sizes for other things that are not just Hildon...20:15
lizardojrocha: there must be some reason why they put it on gtk-enums on the first place20:15
lizardoand not on something like "hildon-enums.h"...20:15
jrochalizardo, hmm, I see20:16
lizardoso I *think* this is because you can use these sizes with gtk widgets too20:16
genewitchi certainly hope the n900  + maemo 5 handle such things as the RSS feed reader being responsive... and web pages.20:16
lizardojrocha: and not use hildon at all, but still have hildon sized widgets for your gtk app20:16
jrochalizardo, that seems understandable, yet weird20:17
jrochalizardo, because even if one wants to use a hildon size, they should get it from hildon thinking theoretically20:17
crashanddieI just unleashed my bullshit generator20:18
crashanddieI was asked by my boss to justify why I need to spend 2 weeks in the US20:18
AStormjrocha: no, that would only add porting burden20:18
jrochalizardo, about hildon implementing it that way, maybe it was for convenience (more easy to assign sizes this way)20:18
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lizardojrocha: yes, but in this case, the application would depend on any hildon libs (although the changes to gtk-enums.h are only on Maemo? not sure)20:18
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jrochalizardo, so, the case would be that one maybe wants to use hildon sizes where they don't have hildon libs available? seems weird20:19
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lizardojrocha: anyway, the reasoning behind it is : there are various Gtk sizes (that can be used anywhere were you want those sizes and not use hardcoded constants), the hildon sizes just happen to be some of them20:20
jrochalizardo, yes20:20
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jrochalizardo, and it is easy to use, I was just discussing whether it makes sense or not20:20
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lizardojrocha: I'm no gtk programmer :( but I think this can be asked on the Hildon mailing list , if they have some reasoning, the same would apply for the binding... but if you look at a C code, you would ask the same question: why GTK_HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_HEIGHT and not HILDON_GTK_SIZE_FINGER_HEIGHT ?)20:22
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genewitchwouldn't it be because GTK is the base library and hildon is just a library that happens to use GTK?20:25
crashanddielizardo: so that people would actually start using IDEs with code completion20:25
jrocha_berto_, any comments on this?20:25
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lizardocrashanddie: well, you can use code completion for hildon things too , I suppose :)20:26
_berto_it's HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_SIZE20:27
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_berto_and that enum wasn't originally meant to be in gtk20:27
_berto_but we had to move it20:27
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lizardo_berto_: hmm, that might change the reasoning I was explainer before :)20:28
_berto_when we move people were already using it, so we had to keep the values20:28
lizardo_berto_: so, just to makes things clear: HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_SIZE is a hildon specific thing, but kept in gtk-enums.h only for historical reasons?20:29
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_berto_lizardo: not for historial reasons, but also because it's used in maemo-gtk20:29
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_berto_it could have been named HILDON_GTK_... if that's what you ask20:30
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lizardo_berto_: no no, we were discussing how to have it in python20:31
lizardo_berto_: as part of the "gtk" module or of the "hildon"  module20:31
jrocha_berto_, I was telling them that imo it should be hildon's20:31
_berto_jrocha: it's part of maemo-gtk actually20:31
_berto_it's used in maemo-gtk20:31
lizardo_berto_: because as it was in gtk-enums.h it seemed "logical"  to have it in the gtk module20:31
_berto_and the api is in maemo-gtk20:31
_berto_yes, maemo-gtk has a few things specific to maemo20:32
_berto_this is one of them20:32
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_berto_there's also the tap-and-hold signal, etc20:32
lizardo_berto_: I wonder where is this maemo-gtk project? I could find it only at stage.maemo.org20:32
_berto_lizardo: yes, that's the official repo20:32
lizardo_berto_: but is it part of the official diablo/fremantle releases, or a community project?20:33
_berto_lizardo: it's official20:33
_berto_lizardo: it's the branch of gtk that comes with maemo20:33
lizardo_berto_: hmm, I see, so the gtk we have on the devices come from this maemo-gtk branch?20:34
jrochayes, everytime you "import gtk"20:34
_berto_(sorry, telephone)20:34
wazdhehe. sometimes to know English is so cool :)20:35
lizardo_berto_, jrocha : in this case , maybe having the HILDON_SIZE_* symbols in gtk still makes sence, if you think that we are actually talking about maemo-gtk ... IMHO20:35
lizardogiven that it is part of the maemo-gtk API and not on the Hildon API20:35
wazdI have a neighbour from GB, he tried to tell me that the elevator is not working in russian20:35
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javispedro"The browser is Mozilla’s Fennec Fox, but in future, users will have the options to use firefox on their N900." sigh.20:36
_berto_lizardo: well, we try to keep maemo-gtk as close to upstream gtk as possible20:36
_berto_lizardo: but a few things have to be changed20:36
jrochalizardo, well, now that we know the whole story, it makes sense, from the implementation part20:36
wazdWhen I said "You can speak English" his face showed sch a relief :D20:36
lizardojrocha: note that I not completely sold on this , but what I need to avoid is having inconsistences between what we provide as gtk/hildon modules and how the actual underlying API is...20:36
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* ShadowJK discovers diablo's "hung app" protection is broken20:37
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lizardo"I need" -> "We need"  :)20:37
jrochalizardo, of couse20:37
jrochalizardo,  I understand20:37
_berto_lizardo: understood20:37
ShadowJKI manually stopped a game by sending it the STOP signal. The hildon UI hung. No "blah blah not responding" dialog appeared even after 10 minutes20:37
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* ShadowJK logged in through ssh and sent -CONT to the game, and everything came back to life20:38
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jrochalizardo, my suggestions were only because when I code with Hildon, I don't really know where does the HILDON_SIZE... comes from but on Python it seemed to cripple the reading, when one sees: gtk.HILDON_SIZE...20:39
jrochalizardo, but now that I understand the whole story it's okay, and I won't bug you anymore :)20:39
lizardojrocha: yeah , it is a namespace issue , I would say :)20:39
lizardojrocha: because in C you don't have namespaces, so everything you #include is kind of global :)20:40
jrochalizardo, yes20:40
lizardojrocha: if that helps, you could use from gtk import HILDON_SIZE...20:40
jrochalizardo, last line of "import this": Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those! :D20:40
lizardojrocha: would even make some calls smaller :)20:40
jrochalizardo, I know how to manipulate the imports, but of course, that's not a good practice20:41
jrochaif I import * from gtk and then use a Button... who knows where the hell that button comes from20:41
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lizardojrocha: well, I tend to use some from ... import ... where the code becomes easier to read :) (following the Python zen)20:42
jrochaand we should not mess with Python's readability or else Guido is summoned by the interpreter and punches you in the nose :)20:42
lizardojrocha: "from import *" is like using C's #include ... IMHO :)20:43
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jrochalizardo, I use from  import * mainly when I refer to a module of mine20:44
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jrochaand I know it ain't like I'm gonna have a Button class lying around20:45
lizardojrocha: I agree, makes sense when you are splitting code into different files for modularity20:45
jrochaalright, back to work, nice to talk with you and finally get this issue clarified20:45
lizardojrocha: but using from gtk import XXX where XXX is a list of some specific often used symbols does not hurt IMHO :)20:46
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lizardojrocha: ok, feel free to ask other python specific question on #pymaemo too, its too quiet there20:46
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Macerandroid sucks so badly20:47
Maceri need an n90020:47
javispedrowho doesn't :)20:47
javispedroand why does everybody keep insisting it does have a compass? :P20:48
SpeedEvilI don't. I need two!20:48
Maceri need to take this g1 and run it over with a car20:48
SpeedEviljavispedro: It helps with AR apps20:48
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SpeedEviljavispedro: If you know exactly which way you're pointing, and where you are - you know what's in front of you20:48
javispedroSpeedEvil: which I consider a fad. But even then, it does _not_ have one :P20:48
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SpeedEviljavispedro: especially handy - IMO - for geotagged photos - for example for openstreetmap20:49
SpeedEvilBut - that is probably admittedly a niche use.20:49
GeneralAntillesMacer, I though you loved Android.20:49
javispedroSpeedEvil: but that is one useful use.20:49
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MacerGeneralAntilles: android itself is ok20:49
Macerthe apps suck20:49
Macerthen again20:49
Macerandroid sucks20:49
Macerusing maemo4 is a much better experience20:50
SpeedEviljavispedro: AR - ... There are few compelling apps yet.20:50
Maceri wish i could get maemo5 on the g120:50
Macerthat would be so awesome20:50
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Macerit would be like a poor man's n90020:50
javispedroSpeedEvil: and even then, I don't see neither myself nor my parents nor my grandma using that.20:50
SpeedEviljavispedro: The killer app hasn't really arrived.20:51
SpeedEviljavispedro: It would clearly be good for tourist map type stuff20:51
Maceryou have tp wait for the n900gs20:51
ShadowJKI want a gyro!20:51
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Macerfor the compass20:51
ShadowJKN900i ;)20:52
MacerShadowJK:  get one then20:52
javispedrothe risk of me being run over by a car is already way too high just with the gps20:52
ShadowJKMacer, I mean I want 4 of them, in the device20:52
SpeedEviljavispedro: this is why you need AR.20:52
Macerthought you meant the food20:52
SpeedEvil'STOP LOOKING AT ME - RUN!'20:52
ShadowJKthere's a good called gyro?20:52
ShadowJKa food*20:52
Macercompass rotates maps also doesnt it?20:53
GeneralAntillesMacer, no way it'll fit in less than 640x480.20:53
SpeedEvilsilicon chip gyros are expensive20:53
SpeedEvilmaybe $15 for 3 axis in volume20:53
MacerGeneralAntilles: maemo5?20:53
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SpeedEvilCompared to $.8 maybe for the accellerometer20:53
GeneralAntillesNot in its current state, anyway.20:53
Macerneeds that high of a res?20:53
SpeedEvil(and maybe $3 for compasses)20:53
GeneralAntillesI'm sure somebody could brow beat it, but it likely wouldn't work well.20:53
javispedrowere to choose, I would select the compass instead of the gyro20:53
MacerGeneralAntilles: doesnt matter20:53
ShadowJKgyro+accelerometers would be perfect for stabilising and augmenting the dodgy data you get from gps&compass though20:54
Macerg1 will never see maemo5 on it20:54
ShadowJKjavispedro, oh I want both compass and gyros20:54
SpeedEvilShadowJK: yeah - gyro will drop in price though20:54
ShadowJKand accel, and gps20:54
javispedroShadowJK: I want a 24 hour battery.20:54
SpeedEvilShadowJK: it's starting to see the sort of exponential price drop you saw with accelerometers.20:54
ShadowJKShadowJK, I have one20:54
ShadowJKjavispedro, I have one20:54
GeneralAntillesI WANT A CAKE PONY!20:54
javispedro:P :)20:54
SpeedEvilWhich now they're sprayed into everything get cheaper.20:54
ShadowJKjavispedro, unfortunately it's installed in my car!20:54
SpeedEviljavispedro: Remove it, and place in backpack20:55
SpeedEviljavispedro: Voila - days of active use.20:55
javispedrobah :P20:55
Macernothing beats going to the suit case era20:55
ShadowJKYou could use the accel to detect when user has put phone down on table or wherever, and when it's still, you can get an accurate-ish compass reading, and accurate-ish reading from accelerometers to determine your direction, and calibrate gyros to that20:56
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javispedrodoesn't the compass need calibration too?20:56
SpeedEvilShadowJK: yeah - this is all nice - but you _still_ can't do inertial navigation very well.20:56
Stskeepsindications you're not using enough time with the wife: she starts faking extreme power surges with the living room lamp20:56
javispedroinstead of entering power save, it would enter power hungry mode.20:56
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, I don't want to do inertial navigation20:56
MacerStskeeps: huh?20:57
SpeedEvilShadowJK: Why not - it's cool!20:57
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, well, I do, but only for a second at a time20:57
Macershe didnt really do that did she?20:57
ShadowJKin between gps updates basically20:57
SpeedEvilShadowJK: yeah - it'd be so nice if you could get free of GPS - from indoors20:57
MacerStskeeps:  arebt you still a newlywed?20:57
StskeepsMacer: sure, month day today :P20:57
Maceryou should still be having sex every 5 minutes20:58
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Macerget off the computer crap and go have sex20:58
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, I doubt it'd be accurate enough to answer "am I still inside the building?" with 50% confidence for more than a few minutes :)20:58
SpeedEvilShadowJK: it's not.20:58
SpeedEvilShadowJK: Of the order of a centimeter a second a second error20:58
ShadowJKYeah, for indoor positioning we need UWB or the magic pony-GPS luke was talking about20:58
SpeedEvilOr image processing20:59
aolwlan positioning20:59
SpeedEvilWhich is horrible20:59
SpeedEvilBut just about doable20:59
ShadowJKcellphone bill for my stay in germany just dropped in. 200Euro :-(20:59
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ShadowJK60 megs of data :)21:00
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SpeedEvilYou were there half an hour?21:01
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ShadowJKSpeedEvil, 10 days21:11
ShadowJKthat's 6 megabytes of intarwebs a day!21:11
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Robot101where does the hildon theme that comes with the sdk live?21:37
Robot101I mean, its source or repo or whatever21:39
SpeedEvilShadowJK: you diddn't get a german SIM - or are the german rates that bad?21:41
fiferboyRobot101: hildon-theme-alpha is the package name, I think21:42
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fiferboyHmm, maybe alpha is a different one.  I'm not sure if the theme is available anywhere as a package,21:43
fiferboyEverything you need should be in /usr/share/themes/Default though21:43
qwerty12_N810The theme isn't free like Plankton was in Diablo21:43
qwerty12_N810and I can't see it in non-free so I'm guessing it's in nokia-binaries21:44
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jrochalizardo, hi again22:03
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jrochalizardo, how can use a HildonFileChooserDialog?22:04
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lizardojrocha: ok, you are hitting the "non-documented"  edges of python-hildon :)22:05
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lizardojrocha: you need to pass it a filesystem model, let me find the usage example:22:05
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jrochalizardo, I think it is very common to want to use a file chooser :)22:05
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jrochaI C hildon I only need to arguments but the python one keeps asking me for 3 args22:06
lizardojrocha: take a look at :
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jrochaoh, ok22:07
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lizardojrocha: yes, but in C you must pass a model too, I think in the constructor22:07
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lizardojrocha: I tried it in C, I remember it asserted somewhere22:07
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jrochaanyway, I'll check that, so22:08
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lizardojrocha: no prob :) just to let you know, regarding file chooser, I had a hard time implementing support for it because the API docs didn't mention the file system model is required in fremantle (IIRC)22:10
lizardojrocha: so I had to dig some API usage examples to find the correct usage :)22:10
lizardojrocha: in C, I mean22:10
jrochalizardo, yes, the file chooser can be a little obscure22:11
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thphow do I add a button to the titlebar of a window in fremantle?22:45
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RST38hyou can't, can you?22:46
thpi think i've seen screenshots where there was a button in the titlebar22:47
thpI've found the thread..
thplooks like it's a dirty hack ;)22:50
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oocan someone PLEASE help me run a simple HelloMIDlet in maemo?23:25
ooalready tried jalimo/cacao/midpath/phoneme but no suceess running a cldc midp software23:26
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MrGooseoo: you sound desperate23:27
MrGooseoo: I cant help though; not my know how23:27
oojust a little frustrated23:27
oonvm thanks anyway xD23:28
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PinkKroliczeKsome can help me with b-man sources list?23:44
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ShapeshifterMhh. The N900 looks really sweet.23:51
Shapeshifterreally, really sweet.23:51
PinkKroliczeKWho can help me with my n810 here maybe?23:51
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javispedrohm. people already dumping their n810s in ebay23:54
javispedromight as well get another one and hang it on the wall ;P23:55
qwerty12_N810Obviously not into Mer, then :>23:55
johnsqjavispedro: why? its usable for too much things, if cheap23:55
javispedroI'm serious with haging it on the wall, then leave it as a p2p machine, router, or always on server23:55
ShapeshifterI never had a proper phone, using a 10 buck LG that can do SMS >.> I think I want one. I'm wondering what kind of phone. Not an iphone, and no windows. Looked at the HTC hero, looks better now with the updated rom. But should I wait for an N900?23:56
johnsqphotoframe, file server ...23:56
ShapeshifterI bet it's going to be ages until it comes to Switzerland -.-23:56
PinkKroliczeKjavispedro: i like my 810 :)23:57
javispedroyeah. couldn't live without it right now. :)23:57
PinkKroliczeKjust for call i use inq for me is verry good :>23:58
javispedrowhy does everybody use the n800 as a dev board?23:59
Shapeshiftermhhh... how long does the battery go on an 810?23:59
Shapeshiftersays here 10 days23:59
Shapeshifterthat would be amazing23:59
javispedroI'm looking at some of the ARM RVCT propaganda and they have a photo with a bastardized n80023:59
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javispedroplus the vmware demo not too much ago23:59

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