IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2009-09-16

johnsqShapeshifter: but without use only standby00:00
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* javispedro has still some hopes for the 3d n8x0 driver... i want to code something in ogles100:01
PinkKroliczeKShapeshifter: when you dont use alot yes aprox 9-10days00:02
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ksysioi use this only when i`m in work :>00:03
ksysiohaha but now i`m unemployed :D00:03
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GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N810, I confused easyroot and rootsh again.00:19
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GeneralAntillesI'm just going to set up a text expansion so that easyroot is always replaced with rootsh whenever I try to type it.00:21
GeneralAntillesWhy do people ask questions like, "why does everyone say I don't want to use it (how do you know??),"00:21
GeneralAntillesTechnical people usually have a good idea of where and how normal people are going to get themselves in trouble.00:22
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javispedroand the sniff that just by how you write your first question.... most of the time :P00:22
infobotjavispedro meant: and they sniff that just by how you write your first question.... most of the time :P00:22
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GeneralAntilleslol . . .
GeneralAntillesComment 100:23
AStormha, ha, ha00:23
GeneralAntillesYouTube comments are the best.00:23
AStormI found the best resampler to use on maemo yet00:24
AStormthe one in latest Sox.00:24
* AStorm will rewrite it in DSP later.00:24
GeneralAntillesI'm going to sign in just to thumb that comment.00:24
AStormthat resampler is very simd-compatible00:24
acoutojavispedro, again, sorry i fell, my internet is bad00:25
GeneralAntillesSomebody needs to buy Tim a teleprompter.00:25
acoutojavispedro, are you there?00:25
frals<GeneralAntilles> Technical people usually have a good idea of where and how normal people are going to get themselves in trouble. <- According to my course I'm reading at uni atm this isn't really true :)00:25
javispedroacouto: yes.00:26
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fralson the other hand all this human-computer-interaction sounds like a lot of guessing and assumptions.. :P00:26
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GeneralAntillesfrals, I should probably clarify. They know if a user is asking why they need R&D mode then they definitely don't need. ;)00:26
GeneralAntillesNot that an engineer can predict where failure points are going to be.00:26
fralsRight, makes more sense :)00:27
fralsAnd I can agree with that ;)00:27
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acoutojavispedro, about the compile the gps example.. So i compiled with pkg-config, but when i execute in n810 appear a error "./example_gps: line 1: syntax error: "(" unexpected"00:30
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javispedroacouto, wha? why don't you do a "head -n 1 example_gps" and tell me what you see00:32
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acoutojavispedro, sorry but i didnt understand00:34
javispedrorun "head -n 1 example_gps" on your tablet00:34
Firebirdhm, is there such a thing as an OpenGL based web browser?00:35
GeneralAntillesFirebird, yes.00:36
GeneralAntillesThe first one is from, like 1998.00:36
Firebirdhow about, recent and actively developed00:36
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GeneralAntillesFirebird, probably, but I don't know off-hand.00:36
acoutojavispedro, ok
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acoutojavispedro, sorry i ran the compiled file
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smackpotatoanyone check out the jobs nokia is advertising at maemo.org00:41
smackpotatodon't they need anyone to mop the floors00:42
* smackpotato wonders what kind of job I could get after not being employed since 198600:43
RST38hUnemployment councillor?00:44
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javispedroacouto: bad link. i tried to guess the missing number but other than someone's sensitive data couldn't find whatever you were trying to show me00:44
javispedroacouto: so please repaste00:45
acoutojavispedro, the original code?00:46
javispedrowhatever you tried to show me last.00:46
acoutojavispedro, ok just a minute00:47
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acoutojavispedro, the code = ( the commands= (
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javispedroah yeah, I forgot00:51
javispedroit is a x86 binary00:51
javispedroacouto: DIABLO_X86 means you're creating binaries for x86, for your computer.00:52
javispedronot for your tablet.00:52
javispedroswitch to DIABLO_ARMEL, for example by typing "sb-menu".00:52
javispedrothen select then DIABLO_ARMEL.00:52
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acoutojavispedro, ok ill switch the target00:52
acoutojavispedro, a moment00:53
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acoutojavispedro, already00:54
acoutojavispedro, so i ll recompile the code and send to tablet00:56
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andre__yay. one week away, 250 new bugmail messages :)00:58
javispedrowb andre__ :)00:58
andre__thanks :)00:58
VDVsxandre__, puff, subscribe some threads on TMO and you'll see ;)01:00
VDVsxandre__, btw, wb ;)01:00
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acoutojavispedro, appeared a new erro, it didnt find the gpsbt.h   (
javispedroacouto: because the _ARMEL and _X86 targets are separated, whatever you do on one you have to do on the other one.01:02
javispedroacouto: so apt-get install libgpsbt-dev, osso-gpsd-dev, etc01:02
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johnsqthe archos 5 internet tablet looks good01:12
javispedroyeah, and the GUI fremantleish01:13
javispedrowith that black title bar with "back" button01:13
johnsqgood stolen is better than bad new01:13
acoutojavispedro, i have an compiled but now appeared just w)arning (
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javispedroacouto: and the compiler is probably right, but for now it's harmless.01:15
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acoutojavispedro, but in this case, the program not run  ( )01:20
javispedroah well, and I'm going to bed01:20
acoutojavispedro, hehe ok... thanks for help me01:21
acoutojavispedro, :)01:21
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pupnik_javispedro seen drpocketsnes port to iphone?  arm optimizations by zodttd01:24
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SpeedEvilA typo got me
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mfinkleanyone have a good way to dynamically determine if my application is running on an n810 or an n900?05:01
mfinkleor better yet, anyone have a good to way determine the real dpi on the n810 or n900?05:02
mfinkleif I can't find the actual dpi (not the 96dpi lie), then knowing if it/s an n810 or n900 would at least allow me to hack a solution05:02
Firebirdyou could do some math to calculate the DPI :o05:03
lcuk2mfinkle, read and parse05:06
lcuk2get the token that is for product05:06
lcuk2and check it against "RX-34"  "RX-44"   "RX-48"  and "RX-51"05:07
lcuk2if none is specified in the file, use the default :)05:07
lcuk2its likely not a nokia05:07
GeneralAntilles225dpi for the N81005:08
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GeneralAntillesThe N900 is around ~265dpi05:08
luke-jrmfinkle: reports the wrong DPI?05:08
lcuk2yes luke-jr05:08
lcuk2its so the software doesnt blow up05:08
luke-jrlcuk2: reporting wrong DPI = blow up05:08
lcuk2if you tell lots of software a ridiculous dpi things look "odd"05:08
luke-jrnothing ridiculous about 265 dpi05:09
mfinklelcuk2: thanks!05:09
luke-jrbuggy software should be fixed05:09
GeneralAntillesEasier to fudge with X than to fix buggy software.05:09
GeneralAntillesResources are finite, things have to ship in a reasonable amount of time.05:09
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: buggy software is a minority, thank God05:09
lcuk2most software on the planet is buggy05:09
luke-jrbuggy in THIS respect05:09
lcuk2this is a common thing05:09
mfinkleyeah, we just want 8 millimeters to be 8 millimeters on both devices :)05:09
chxbah, millimeters!05:10
mfinkleI have a feeling gecko won't make it easy for me anyway05:10
chxthat stops us from using iphone audio stuff05:10
chxone damned millimeter.05:10
mfinkleit'll blowup fonts or something05:10
luke-jrmfinkle: Gecko ftl :(05:10
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mfinkleluke-jr: I don't think mozilla would be happy with me if we wrote fennec in webkit :)05:11
luke-jrmfinkle: KHTML ftw?05:12
mfinkleluke-jr: I don't think mozilla would be happy with me if we wrote fennec in /insert any engine here that is not gecko/05:12
mfinkleplus I actually like writing in XUL05:13
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fureddoHi, is it possible to remove the minimize button for a window?  Usually, in Qt, I use setWindowFlags() to do that.  In Maemo, it doesn't work.05:31
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Dantonichwy guys anyone use flite or espeak?05:55
Dantonicjohnx, i know you do or have in the past06:00
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johnxDantonic, used it for about 5 minutes to put together that hack06:10
johnxbut I'll try and answer a question06:10
johnxfureddo, in maemo4? not possible I think06:10
fureddoYeah, it looks like so.  Also, I have overridden eventFilter() to try to catch the event and ignore it but it doesn't work either.06:11
fureddoThe event is probably handled before it reaches the window's eventFilter() method.06:12
fureddoMaybe you will have an alternative solution.06:12
fureddoI explain the problem.06:12
johnxmatchbox-wm is pretty much purpose built to override window requests06:13
johnxbut yeah, explain your goal :)06:13
fureddoI have a window that is used in fullscreen.06:13
fureddoFrom that window, I can invoke a modal dialog.06:14
fureddoHowever, the dialog has a Qt::Window style.06:14
fureddoSo the dialog has a minimize button on its title bar.06:14
fureddoIf the user minimize the dialog window.06:15
fureddo,...  It cannot reopen it because the parent window (that is fullscreen) hides the minimized icon.06:15
johnxany way to make it the proper type, ie a real modal dialog?06:15
fureddoThe only way out is a shutdown.06:15
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fureddoIf I use the default window type, it works but I would like the window to be resizable.06:16
fureddoDialog modal windows don't seem to be resizable.06:17
johnxI don't think there's something that fits your requirements...06:17
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fureddoYeah, maybe.  A good compromise will be to use the default dialog style and make the window larger.06:18
johnxthough, do you mean "user resizeable" or "the developer can create it with an arbitrary size"?06:18
johnxthe 1st won't happen, but the latter seems likely06:18
fureddoI would have liked the window to be user-resizable but it's probably not possible.06:18
johnxnever saw one in maemo 4 that is06:18
johnxat least not with the default wm settings06:19
fureddoSo I will set the size of the window programmatically to be larger and it will be good enough.06:19
fureddoThanks johnx.06:20
johnxno problem :)06:20
fureddoAnother idea could be to have the dialog in full-screen.  This way, no way to minimize it, right?06:21
fureddoOr is there a keyboard accelerator to perform minimize?06:21
johnxoff the top of my head, a couple apps do this06:21
johnxah, good question06:21
johnxon the n810 there might be06:22
fureddoI will google for it.06:22
johnxdo you have an n810?06:22
johnxlet me look real quick06:22
fureddoDo you know if there is a keyboard accelerator too to switch from one window to another?06:22
fureddoThat could also be useful to reactivate the minimized dialog window that was unreachable.06:23
johnxah, looks like the kb accelerators for minimize and "task switcher" only work on a bluetooth/usb keyboard06:25
fureddoF7 and F8 are Zoom in/Zoom out keys. I don't know if it means Maximize/minimize though.06:25
johnxthey need alt06:25
johnxso you don't have any device at all?06:25
fureddoNo, only a Zaurus SL-C100006:25
fureddoThat's very unconvenient.06:25
johnxah, I might have even asked you that same question before :)06:26
johnxsorry, long day. I remember talking to you now :)06:26
fureddoYou did.  No prob.06:26
fureddoYeah, the tomotko guy.06:26
johnxdo you have scratchbox?06:26
johnxthe f{5-8} keys should work there I think06:27
johnxzoom in/out are usually used to change font size or in apps that have a concept of zoom (maps, web browsers)06:27
johnxthough people get "creative" all the time :)06:28
fureddoOk, function keys don't seem to change anything.06:30
johnxdo they in other apps?06:30
johnxthey are left for the app to handle, not the wm06:30
fureddoNo, actually, function keys work.06:31
fureddof6 toggles fullscreen.06:32
fureddof4 invokes menu.06:32
fureddof7/f8 -> no effect06:32
fureddoSame for f506:32
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johnxthen f7/f8 aren't mapped in that application06:32
johnxforget what f5 does ...06:32
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johnxthough, that little task switcher in the bottom left corner of the screen can be brought up with the "home" key on the n800 or the "switch" key on the n81006:33
spencer_have question on how to compile libxml in scratchbox...06:34
johnxso, losing a window in fullscreen mode isn't all that big of a deal I think06:34
fureddoI will try if it works in scratchy.06:34
johnxfureddo, but I don't know what keycode you'd need to test it in sb06:35
johnxspencer_, we need a little more detail than that :)06:35
fureddojohnx, Indeed, home key does nothing.06:35
johnxright, on the n800 it has a picture of a "house"06:35
johnxit's probably not sending "Home"06:36
spencer_johnx: i have libxml2 libxml2-dev and libxml2-dbg up to date according to the scratchbox.. but it's still not linking properly when i compile.. giving me /scratchbox/compilers/cs2005q3.2-glibc2.5-arm/bin/sbox-arm-linux-ar: -lxml2: No such file or directory error06:36
johnxlibxml2 is already provided by nokia, so your install might be conflicting somehow06:37
spencer_johnx: ok.. how can i tell? pardon me.. really n00b at this...06:37
johnxspencer_, I have no idea :)06:38
johnxis there a reason you can't use Nokia's version of libxml2?06:38
fureddojohnx, Well, I will use fullscreen and hope no user will know to minimize a fullscreen window.  That will solve my problem for now.06:39
spencer_absolutely no reason.. just trying to get a project started. and found out i'm getting this error.. i can provide the and if you want.06:39
johnxfureddo, I still think they'll be able to trigger the side "app switch" menu just fine, but I have no idea how to use it from scratchbox...06:39
spencer_maybe it's just a stupidity in my automake/autoconf environment..06:40
johnxor a scratchbox stupidity...06:40
johnxsorry, I think I misread your comment earlier. for some reason I thought you had tried to install your own version of libxml2 in sb06:41
fureddojohnx, It's no big deal.  Time for lunch!  Have a nice day.06:42
spencer_nope.. i used the apt-get install libxml2 in scratchbox.06:42
johnxfureddo, you too :)06:42
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johnxspencer_, can you run apt-cache policy libxml2?06:42
johnx(in sb)06:42
spencer_johnx: libxml2:06:45
spencer_  Installed: 2.6.32.dfsg-5maemo106:45
spencer_  Candidate: 2.6.32.dfsg-5maemo106:45
spencer_  Version table:06:45
spencer_ *** 2.6.32.dfsg-5maemo1 006:45
spencer_        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status06:45
spencer_     2.6.27.dfsg-1osso4 006:45
spencer_        500 diablo/sdk/free Packages06:45
spencer_i think that's the problem there..06:45
spencer_but why did i get the maemo5 package is beyond me.. :(06:46
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johnxhigher version number06:46
johnxbut ... that's not the maemo5 version, just FYI06:46
spencer_ok.. that scares me for e a sec.06:47
johnxreally easy to downgrade though: apt-get install libxml2=2.6.27.dfsg-1osso406:47
spencer_done.. let me reload sb and try to rerun my conf/make.06:48
spencer_johnx: still same issue.. but the autoconf said libxml2 is OK06:51
johnxthen I have no idea :(06:52
johnxI guess you could find something else that needs libxml2 and see if it builds06:52
johnxif it doesn't: something's messed up with your sb install now06:52
johnxif it does: something is different with the autoconf/autotools setups06:53
johnxand by "something else" i mean some well known app available from extras06:53
spencer_well, did another test.. just tried to move the XML2_CFLAGS and XML2_LIBS towards the end of the flags in the and now the hildon's flags are getting errored out.. i think it's the ar having issue connecting to all my CFLAGS and LIBs.06:58
johnxmy one piece of advice is to remember to borrow heavily from other peoples' build scripts / source packages06:59
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RST38hqwerty: Are you around?07:02
spencer_johnx, thanks for the advice.. i think my build script is just totally screwed up. i just tried to compile maemopad and compare the make output, mine wasn't even using gcc for whatever reason :P07:04
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KhertanHI everyone !07:14
luke-jro hai thar07:15
KhertanThere is now a real unlimitted phone voice and call mobile plan available now in France !!!! SFR !!!! 199€ by  month .... ouch ...07:15
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RST38hHeya AStorm07:16
AStormthat sox VHQ resampler is like, 2x slower than linear07:16
AStorm(on Turion X2 Ultra, mind you, have to test on ARM)07:16
AStormdo we have sox 14.2.0 on Maemo?07:17
johnxdidn't you know? slower = better quality!07:17
AStormjohnx: ... yeah, but libsamplerate is worse (at best sinc)07:18
AStormand order of magnitude slower07:18
AStorm for one case.07:18
luke-jrsox only recently was legal to distribute07:18
AStormluke-jr: hmmh?07:18
luke-jrwithin the past month07:18
AStormsox resampler is LGPL.07:18
luke-jrAStorm: not sox as a whole07:18
AStormyes, correct07:18
luke-jrthe sox tarball contained copyrighted and not licensed for distribution code07:19
AStormit had some plugin that was... let's say of unknown copyright status07:19
AStormfor ABX people out there, I've resampled the file twice with each of the resamplers.07:19
luke-jrhm, I suppose binary distros could just cut that out for their pkg07:19
johnxso you're making a fuss about something that, as of now, is legal to distribute?07:19
AStormto 44100 -> 8000 -> 4410007:19
luke-jrjohnx: no, just throwing out info in case there wasn't a sox pkg07:20
AStormand omploaded flacs07:20
AStormfirst is original.07:20
luke-jreither way, there should be no legal problems w/ sox distrib now07:20
luke-jrwhich makes me happy cuz I find it useful :)07:21
AStormluke-jr: at worst, they'd just axe the plugin07:21
luke-jrAStorm: yeah, I forgot binary distros could do that :)07:22
luke-jrI use Gentoo, remember ;P07:22
AStormGentoo would just set the licence.07:22
luke-jrGentoo mirrors the upstream sources usually07:22
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AStormbtw, libsamplerate produced audible artifacts on the sample.. heh07:23
AStormI guess it's a killer for it07:23
AStorm(and it's just some midi, dammit!)07:23
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AStormkudos for people who recognize the track07:23
luke-jrwhy are you resampling a midi?07:23
AStormto test the resampler07:24
luke-jrI would think midis are sample-less07:24
AStormobvious is obvious07:24
AStormno, it's a rendering of midi07:24
AStormusing timidity++07:24
luke-jroh :p07:24
luke-jrI do wonder how all those older cell phones supported MIDI ring tones07:25
luke-jrtimidity takes quite a bit of disk space...07:25
luke-jrfor the sounds07:25
AStormin hardware.07:25
AStormlike the cards of old, they had hardcoded wavetable07:25
luke-jrhardware generation of all the sounds?07:25
AStormsure yes07:25
AStormit's cheap.07:25
RST38hluke-jr: OPL-class FM synthesis chip will do this for you cheaply07:25
* luke-jr wonders why timidity can't do the same in software07:25
AStormRST38h: FM is worse ;p07:26
AStormluke-jr: huhwhatlol07:26
RST38htimidity renders audio in software07:26
AStormtimidity DOES that in software07:26
RST38hbut OPL chips do it with a few oscillators07:26
luke-jrRST38h: yeah, but doesn't it have a collection of audio files?07:26
AStormexactly that. you give it samples, it renders the midi07:26
RST38hJust needs a MIDI score07:26
luke-jrwhat are the "sets" then?07:26
AStormsoundfonts or sets of samples07:26
RST38hI see the problem07:26
luke-jreawpatches or whatever07:26
AStormthe wavetable in other words.07:26
RST38hMIDI assumes that you not only have the score but also have a bank of musical instruments to play it07:27
AStormRST38h: and yes, any phone worth the money used wavetable and not OPL07:27
RST38hFM chips achieve these instruments by connecting a few oscillators in the right order07:27
AStormit sounds 100x better and is not more expensive.07:27
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AStormeven if you use tiny samples.07:27
* johnx had a sound card with fm synthesis...07:27
RST38hTimidity lacks those oscillators, so it uses waveform samples for the instruments07:27
AStormjohnx: me too, OPL307:27
luke-jreawpatches is 38 MB... the hardware has 38 MB ROMs with the data?07:27
AStormluke-jr: sure no07:28
RST38hjohnx: ANY sound card that included Adlib compatible chips had FM synthesis07:28
AStormeawpatches is fairly high quality07:28
luke-jroscillators can't be emulated?07:28
johnxES1868 ISA PNP, the most god awful sound card to get working in linux07:28
AStormfor cellphone, you can get away with 8-bit and limited range07:28
AStormluke-jr: they can, but it's pointless07:28
AStormit's worse.07:28
AStormunless of course the point of the excercise is the emulation07:28
luke-jri c07:28
AStormlike, say, in dosbox07:28
AStormwhich has proper OPL2 and OPL3 implementation in software07:29
* luke-jr personally thinks his cell phone MIDI sounds better than eawpatches, but whatever07:29
RST38hThere is no "proper" OPL implementation in software :)07:29
RST38hYou always miss corner cases ;)07:29
AStormRST38h: blah blah, yes, it's emulated, no it's perfect.07:29
AStormit's bit-compatible and all the corner cases have been (hopefully) caught07:29
* luke-jr wonders why SimCity Network Edition has no modern/free equivalent07:30
AStormluke-jr: like Simcity 2000?07:30
luke-jrAStorm: IIRC, that was notably different from NE07:30
AStormI guess NE didn't sell.07:30
luke-jrin fact, there was a SC2k NE too...07:30
luke-jrprobably didn't I imagine07:31
luke-jrit was slow as heck07:31
luke-jrbut the concept was pretty fun07:31
AStormheh, btw, even something as cheap as nokia 3310 has wavetable midi07:34
AStormalbeit only a few instruments07:34
AStorm(but good quality)07:34
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AStormoh right, of note is the fact that you need to resample (with pitch shifting) in wavetable synthesis08:21
AStorm(unless you have samples recorded for every possible pitch, which is unlikely)08:21
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Stskeepsfun challenges: finding settings in a language you don't understand for a telephone provider so you can tether your tablet..09:03
Stskeepsah, - the settings by default in n810 was broken09:07
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Stskeepssometimes i wish my desktop computer was a touchscreen and i ran maemo5 on it.09:20
chxits hard enough to keep a 4" screen clean09:24
chxcleaning a 24" of fingerprints is .... ouch.09:24
Stskeepspoint taken09:24
AStormI sometimes wish I had a touchscreen to replace a touchpad09:26
AStorm(in addition, not instead, of the screen)09:26
CorsacStskeeps: buy a T400s touch09:27
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AStormand you could still use it as a touchpad in a pinch or to save power09:30
chxI have a T400s.09:30
chxI for my life can't imagine it being a touchscreen09:30
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chxyay trackpoint :)09:30
AStormtrackpoint = weak09:31
AStormtouchscreen = good09:31
AStormeven touchpad with correct extra software is ok09:31
AStorm(special locking modes)09:31
AStormtrackpoint can't really reach that kind of usability09:32
AStormthough it's fun for games09:32
johnxtrackpoint is awesome *and* keeps your fingers on the home row09:34
johnxbut I think what this means is that it comes down to preference09:34
AStormtouchpad in locking mode does too, haha09:34
AStormyou can operate it with thumbs09:34
johnxmaybe you can...09:34
AStormnot maybe. I do.09:34
johnxI've never had any luck doing that accurately or quickly09:35
AStormreally needs software support though, it's not a precise way to use it09:35
AStormnot with normal drivers and software09:35
AStormthere it's impossible09:35
johnxluckily there's lots of choices and thus we don't have to agree :)09:35
AStormthe trick is that you need software support for approximate hits09:35
AStormor... just large UI ;P09:35
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AStormyou use it then like a menu picker09:36
AStormscroll somewhere to pick an option/window/whatever09:36
AStormkind of like sloppy focus with resistance09:37
johnxyeah, there's a lot of "it works great as long as the software is designed for it."09:37
AStormit doesn't really need a huge redesign09:37
AStormsome toolkit support, yes09:37
johnxbut there's nothing I can use today?09:37
AStorm(so that the driver knows where the menu/button is for resistance to work)09:38
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AStormmuch less than hildon, for example.09:39
johnxyup. sounds like I'll just stick to trackpoint...09:40
AStormwhatever you wish09:40
AStormI prefer keys to trackpoint anyway09:40
AStorm(since the apps I use have proper key bindings)09:40
AStormand drawing with either touchpad or trackpoint is not really possible09:41
johnx</religious pointer debate>09:41
AStormso no loss09:41
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kralllllllAlguem do brasil?11:51
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_berto_kralllllll: acho que sim, mas este canal é em inglês11:52
kralllllllE vi isso11:53
kralllllllAmigo vc tem maemo em que aparelho11:53
_berto_english only, sorry :)11:54
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Lorthirkhi guys12:45
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vpolhi all. is there ability to upgrade python in scratchbox up to 2.5?12:58
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lcuk2vpol, not sure, but if you do that, how do you then get users on the tablet itself to update13:01
lcuk2or does the tablet have 2.5 too?13:01
javispedrovpol: yes, but its a bit hard, usually people just use unredirect the sbox python and use a native one13:01
lcuk2hey javispedro \o13:01
javispedrohi lcuk :)13:01
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lcuk2hows tricks13:01
javispedrofine but busy :D13:02
vpollcuk2: mm.. i've heared that it have 2.513:03
* lcuk2 is v busy also13:03
lcuk2vpol, then why does your scratchbox SDK install not have it...13:03
vpolthat's the question :)13:03
javispedrolcuk2: by default sbox uses a very old but i386 one.13:04
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javispedrovpol: it can be done, I did it, following the sbox devkit howto. but then I'd suggest to just use SBOX_REDIRECT_IGNORE=...13:04
lcuk2javispedro, ahhh13:07
* lcuk2 defers to those that know lol13:07
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javispedroit's best not to know those things, really :D13:07
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* crashanddie shrugs13:11
* crashanddie discovers one of the core java files of one of our products13:11
crashanddie5834 lines13:11
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* javispedro is not impressed13:13
javispedro(but shares the grief :) )13:13
lcuk2crashanddie, if you are only discovering it today, i have to ask - where was it hiding13:15
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pancakewhere are the git/svn/hg repos of maemo5?13:25
timeless_mbphidden :)13:26
timeless_mbpi think there are some near maemo.gitorious13:26
pancakei would like to make a patch for libhildon to optionally drop the libcanberra dependency13:26
timeless_mbpclaims to be something like maemo13:27
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timeless_mbppancake: you're currently working from the sdk sources?13:28
pancakeuh hildon is not there13:28
pancaketimeless_mbp: I got the tarballs from repository.maemo.org13:28
* timeless_mbp would just as soon file a bug in bugs maemo w/ a diff against the sdk sources and a link to the source tarball13:28
timeless_mbpif the people who made the sdk are incapable of figuring out how it relates to the internal versioning system, then that's their problem, not yours13:28
timeless_mbphas a hildon in it13:29
pancaketimeless_mbp: cool :)13:29
* timeless_mbp loves the repository descriptions13:30
timeless_mbp"Unnamed repository; edit this..."13:30
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javispedroyeah, that ought to be fixed some day...13:31
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pancakeuhm where's the git uri for ?13:32
crashanddielcuk2: I don't usually look at the code, not a programmer, remember:P13:32
pancakeah /projects13:32
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MikhoHow can I find out which version of fremantle I have in my scratchbox?13:34
timeless_mbptake notes? :)13:34
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Mikhothere must be some way to find out which release it is, but can't google well enough to find out13:36
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suihkulokkimilos_: why do you need the version of the whole platform? check the versions of the components you care about13:40
Mikhobecause it's been ages since I last tried maemo5, and would like to find out whether I need to spend more ages to reinstall it, or if simple apt-get upgrade is enough13:41
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Mikhooh, I need to reinstall even if it's the first beta...13:43
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Stskeepsmurrayc: so far so good regarding the finger keyboards :), still waiting for the newer SDK - but thanks for the work and discovery in this area13:51
wazdheya maemo13:53
murraycStskeeps: Cheers. I had given up hope.13:54
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femorandeirahi, Stskeeps: jrocha and I wrote the two new virtual keyboards in hildon-input-method-plugins-example13:56
femorandeirawe are open to suggestions for other kinds of plugins13:56
femorandeirai.e. keyboard assistants13:56
Stskeepsfemorandeira: thanks to you too :) we will integrate them in Mer and will definately give feedback based on that13:56
jrochaStskeeps, nice!13:56
Stskeepsjohnx's been hacking at getting it going so13:57
femorandeiragreat! they are still unfinished but they should give you an idea for writing cooler ones ;-)13:57
jrochaStskeeps, we released those two keyboards so people could take them as examples and learn from them13:58
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Stskeepsdefinately needed too13:58
Stskeepswe've tried to get fremantle HIM to act correctly for 6-8 months or so :)13:58
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zerojayjavispedro: Your SNES emulator.. do you have it in Maemo 5 extras/extras-devel yet?14:08
javispedrozerojay: extras-devel, with a ugly GUI so far.14:08
zerojayjavispedro: Thanks.14:08
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femorandeiraStskeeps: most/all the UI part of the HIM has been removed in Fremantle, so on one hand that means that portability shouldn't be hard, and on the other that the old plugins won't work well :-/14:14
femorandeiraI wonder if one could develop a plugin to act as a container of other plugins, like the HIM UI in Diablo did14:15
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Stskeeps <- interesting14:16
javispedroyay. was Nokia late to the party?14:17
zerojayNokia started the party.14:17
StskeepsArchos? Android phone will be available in early 2010.14:17
javispedromust admit it did. seems the current "phone of the future" trend is a tablet-like one.14:18
SpeedEvilOpenmoko started the party.14:18
Stskeepsfor phones yes, tablets no14:19
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SpeedEvilMy fundamental problem with all these classes of device is they're too fragile.14:21
SpeedEvilDo I want to be carrying something around that's $700 or so - if insurance won't cover many of the things that can go wrong with it.14:21
kyndeStskeeps: weren't you the one with a smartQ5? may I ask have you managed to flash the system via usb in some way (e.g. like the N810)?14:22
Stskeepsa n810 can take a lot of beating14:22
Stskeepskynde: yeah, - no usb flashing but noone says it can't be implemented14:22
Stskeepsit has two modes, boot from sd internal or sd external14:22
Stskeepseverything after is uboot/qi/etc14:22
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kyndeStskeeps: how doesn boot from external work? I mean, does it take keypress (like the home-button in N810) or what?14:24
kyndeStskeeps: didn't get any manuasl and I haven't found anything but chinese documentation which is about as useful to me as tp.14:25
Stskeepskynde: hang on14:25
CorsacStskeeps: is the n900 fragile?14:25
StskeepsCorsac: how would i know? :P14:25
Corsacwell you seem to say that "all these devices" are14:26
Corsacso I wondered14:26
Corsacif you had some info from the happy few :p14:26
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StskeepsCorsac: show me some context i said that :)14:26
CorsacStskeeps: the sentence about "all this class of devices"14:26
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CorsacStskeeps: damn.14:26
* Corsac hides14:27
StskeepsCorsac: not sure what you are talking about14:27
kyndeStskeeps: will do. no rush. if you have pointers or additional information that would be great.14:27
SpeedEvilExpensive featurephones and tablets can often be fragile. I have no personal experience of the n90014:27
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Stskeepskynde: you should join #mer, a lot of q5/7 hackers there14:27
kyndeStskeeps: ack. now there, too.14:27
* SpeedEvil thinks all phones should be as robust as the 3310.14:28
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SpeedEvilWhere if you sit on it, you move because it's uncomfortable, not because you're sure you've just broken it.14:28
Stskeepskynde: even though it seems like Mer has a bit bad reputation in SmartQ world we seemingily kill internal SD cards. always fun14:28
CorsacStskeeps: my SE is a bit like that14:29
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CorsacSpeedEvil: my SE is a bit like that14:29
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kirmais there "standard"/documented/known API for reading more than minimally detailed power and battery statistics on Maemo 5? that'd be battery charge, voltage, current load in amperes/watts, and such.14:29
kirmaobviously the software interface is there, if I've heard right14:30
kyndeStskeeps: so it's possible to say, reflash the internal flash via booting from the external. looks promising. cheers.14:30
kirmaon N900 of course...14:30
Stskeepskynde: sure, unless you killed the internal flash, :P other interesting forums is and ill-logix.com14:30
kyndeStskeeps: cheers. I'll check them out and make further queries at #mer.14:31
RazumihinThere's the onboard statistics program on N900 so i think you can get those out somehow,14:31
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kirmaRazumihin: can you point to a more specific resource? (just knowing if it's definetly going to be, or *not* going to be public interface is helpful in contemplating things)14:34
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RazumihinSorry but i can't, my knowledge is based on a live talk with a developer :/14:36
Stskeepsthere'll be a energy profiler, or at least one exists14:36
RazumihinYeah, i've played with it.14:36
RazumihinBut is it going to be closed source, don't know.14:37
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kirmaopen source read-only interface would be so nice14:38
kirmaor rather, "documented"14:38
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farrellHello, I've just bought a n810, if I get root access and I crash the system how can I could to fix it?14:39
Stskeepsfarrell: you can always reflash14:39
Stskeepsdon't try to mess with /dev/mtdblock files directly as you might bust the basic bootloader14:40
Stskeepsalso, grab fanoush's bootmenu14:40
kirmaRazumihin: supposedly the application won't be open source at least :I14:40
Stskeepskirma: what do you have in mind to do?14:41
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SpeedEvilAny thoughts on why doesn't have n900?14:41
Stskeepswaiting for kangaroo edition to come out?14:42
farrellStskeeps, when I do a reflash my device back to be original factory?14:42
kirmaown "direct" power usage analysis, and potentially bringing this information to something like a custom screensaver/alerter14:42
Stskeepsfarrell: correct - you can also reflash certain bits only14:42
kirmaplain battery level is of course a start, but something in the style of nokia energy profiler on S60, but with an API, would be really nice too.14:43
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ccookeSpeedEvil: they're finalising the driver for the accelerometer which corrects the problem of using it upside down (... sorry)14:44
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lupine_85so I'm considering getting an N900 when they're released, and I was wondering how open the development is? e.g. symbian development is supposedly open, yet you have all those certifications and devicecaps hoops to jump through. Anyone have any comments?14:46
SpeedEvilvery, very14:46
SpeedEvilyou can hand-code in assembler if you want14:46
SpeedEvilYou get root14:46
SpeedEvilit's an arm linux box14:46
SpeedEvilthat's pretty much it.14:46
lupine_85and whatever you code can be run on any other maemo machine without hoops? awesome :)14:46
ccookelupine_85: possible porting problems, but nothing huge14:47
SpeedEvilIt's not java14:47
SpeedEvilSo yes, you may need to recompile or link14:47
lupine_85mm, that's all fine :)14:47
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lupine_85so the apps have normal linux-style access to the hardware as well? I'm assuming there'll be binary blobs scattered around to control some of the hardware - but that's not really a problem14:49
lupine_85at least the hardware'll run, like a hacked-up HTC phone :D14:49
ccookelupine_85: put it this way... Most of the Debian ARM repo would require a recompilation at most. And there's a debian chroot if you can't be bothered with that.14:49
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lupine_85I think I know what my xmas present will be :D14:49
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ccookepackage management is apt-get, but there's enough drift in library versions to require a separate repository14:50
lupine_85no worries14:50
ccookeHmm. Has anyone ever set up a debian-style build-farm for maemo?14:51
Stskeepsccooke: autobuilder? :P14:51
lupine_85building on-device is presumably a pain :D14:51
Stskeepslupine_85: binary blobs are probably telephony, battery management and the typical wifi firmwares and DSP14:51
SpeedEvilNot really.14:51
lupine_85in terms of speed14:51
SpeedEvilIt's not a slow system.14:51
ccookeStskeeps: I'm thinking "recompilation of most of Debian main"14:51
SpeedEvilIt's not going to be as fast as your desktop.14:51
lupine_85last I checked 600MHz ARM was pretty slow for compiling14:51
SpeedEvilBut compiling an individual app shouldn't be a problem unless it's huge14:52
Stskeepsccooke: ah14:52
Stskeepsccooke: MUD?14:52
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lupine_85certainly slower than an atom, and they take a good hour or two for a kernel14:52
javispedrolupine_85: people are actually compiling on device with the n8x0 (400mhz arm11)14:52
SpeedEvillupine_85: Not on my planet14:52
ccookeStskeeps: expn MUD?14:52
SpeedEvilIIRC kernel took well under 20 mins on my eeepc 900A14:52
Stskeeps , ccooke14:53
ccookeStskeeps: ah, thanks14:53
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lupine_85speaking of which... what's the bootloader/kernel stuff like? not a great deal of point to booting a custom kernel, I'm sure (since it'll be missing said binary blobs), but having control over it would be good too14:54
ccookeStskeeps: looks to not be operational yet. Would it need help from a bored sysadmin from time to time?14:54
Stskeepsccooke: prod Jaffa i guess14:54
ccookewill do.14:54
Stskeepslupine_85: on a N8x0 we have NOLO and X-Loader. those are closed source and basically get the device to the point it loads a kernel from internal flash14:55
Stskeepslupine_85: kernel source is fully available and can be recompiled and toyed with14:55
Stskeepsi doubt that has changed for rx-5114:56
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lupine_85sounds good :)14:56
lupine_85maybe 2010 will be the year of linux on the mobile phone14:57
lupine_85(I know, 2009 was too. even if the phones were crap :D)14:57
Stskeepsi certainly want a n90014:57
lupine_85that keyboard makes me want it14:57
thresh2010 will be the year of linux on desktop14:58
ccookeEvery now and then I have to stop and think just how much Unix has prospered in the last fifteen years :-)14:58
threshlinux will finally rule the world of desktop machines!14:58
lupine_85"yay" :D14:58
ccooke(not just linux, of course)14:58
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Shapeshifterthe booklet 3g looks nice15:01
Shapeshifterif it's easily possible to make phone calls with it, I'll get that instead of an n90015:01
Shapeshifterand put linux on it >.>15:02
ccookeShapeshifter: drivers for that will be "fun" to get hold of15:02
AStormheh... damned shall be nokia for using a plug that is incompatible with iPhone's in ground connection15:03
AStormjust switched mic with gnd :P15:03
Shapeshifterccooke: I get the feeling that the components are pretty generic15:03
Shapeshifterapart from the 3g adaptor.15:03
AStormiphone uses a very interesting way of signalling "mic connected" that is "receive"15:08
AStormconnects a 1 Ohm resistor15:08
AStormto the ground15:08
StskeepsAStorm: isn't it more like that iphone is doing something non-standard? :P15:08
AStormStskeeps: no, they are actually the standard ;p15:08
AStormbut yes, their plug is... weirder than usual15:09
AStormit uses the sleeve for mic data15:09
AStormwhile normally it's used for GND15:09
* lupine_85 found htc's extusb plug interesting15:10
AStormit'd be trivial to add such a module to Nokia devices.15:10
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AStorm(but not for me - taking apart such small embedded devices is hard, much less adding a switch - best would be autosense digital)15:12
AStorm(simple, since it's the ground that matters - sensing lack of ground is very easy)15:13
andre__Khertan, seen ?15:14
Stskeepswb andre__15:15
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Shapeshiftermhh. you know what *I* would buy immediately: A 3G-enabled netbook which integrates a rather simple mobilephone which plugs in on the side. The mobile phone would carry the 3g chip and some storage for contacts and such, and you can do calls with it and all that. Then you plug it into the lap top (similar to a batter pack, in a way that it perfectly integrates into the lap top) and then the netbook makes use of the chip, synchronizes ...15:16
Shapeshifter... automatically, and can be used as a 3G netbook.15:16
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andre__gnarf. whoever allows a RESOLVED LATER "resolution" in a bugzilla installation should be punished, or should also provide a RESOLVED NOTYETRESOLVED resolution15:18
lcuk2Shapeshifter, does it come preinstalled with a pony?15:18
lupine_85Shapeshifter, why not buy a netbook with integrated 3G modem, then just add a USB head/handset?15:18
Shapeshifterno, only a pack of squirrels.15:18
Stskeepsandre__: FIXEDINHARMATTAN?15:18
javispedroShapeshifter: actually, I saw some one of those. the phone looked awful though.15:18
lcuk2lupine_85, why use a usb headset15:18
Shapeshifterlupine_85: because the netbook would need to be running just to make a phone call15:18
X-FadeHold your netboook up to you ear ;)15:18
lcuk2sidetalkin is makin a comeback15:18
lupine_85mm, true enough15:18
lupine_85heh. clone the sim card, choose your favourite phone :D15:19
ShapeshifterX-Fade: I thought of that. it would look really silly but I wouldn't care15:19
andre__Stskeeps, heh, nope. "resolved later" which means "take this off my radar and stats, i state that i take a look later but in fact i'm going to forget about it"15:19
lupine_85I'm sure fun things happen if they're both on at the same time though15:19
* RST38h moos15:19
Stskeepsandre__: ah, memory hole resolution type15:19
X-FadeShapeshifter: just buy a bt headset.15:19
lcuk2you remember ghostbusters and the photon packs - crossing streams etc15:19
Shapeshifterlupine_85: why? the netbook would know the phone is missing.15:19
ShapeshifterX-Fade: as I said, the netbook would need to be running just to make a phone call15:19
javispedrolcuk2: yay  universe-destroying phone! :D15:19
Shapeshifteror to choose a contact15:20
X-FadeShapeshifter: Or a phone in your pocket over bt again ;)15:20
lcuk2javispedro, thats the n900 itself.15:20
RST38hmsg javispedro I am afraid you will have to magnify openttd x2 for the n900 :)15:20
lcuk2just get an n900 and forget the laptop15:20
RST38hah sorry15:20
Shapeshifterlcuk2: I imagine the n900 just to be a really wicked toy. but I doubt it can be used for coding or anything, while a netbook can.15:21
lcuk2feck off15:21
lcuk2i code on mine all the time15:21
Shapeshifterlcuk2: so, it's doable?15:21
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lcuk2apt-get install build-essential15:21
Shapeshifterlcuk2: punctuation?15:21
Shapeshifterisn't it a paint to get a { or so15:21
lcuk2none, i failed english15:22
lcuk2and they didnt have c courses back in my day15:22
Shapeshifterlcuk2: no, I mean when coding on it.15:22
lupine_85bluetooth keyboard?15:22
lcuk2oh that part i dunno lol,  i just build stuff there15:22
lcuk2and use apple bt15:22
ccookeShapeshifter: depends on your language, too15:23
lcuk2Shapeshifter, i prefer to work from desktop, in windows actually, use winscp to get at filesystem15:23
lcuk2and all work isthe work is done on the tablet15:23
lcuk2i dont have a home linux system15:23
ccookeShapeshifter: ruby or python, for instance, will only use {}s for hashes...15:24
* lupine_85 tries to imagine that15:24
ccooke(in general)15:24
lupine_85ccooke, ;)_15:24
ccookelupine_85: yeah, but the shortcuts get used a lot :-)15:24
lupine_85indeedy. trying to write code on anything less than a full keyboard is a nightmare15:24
lcuk2console has mechanism to add new virtual keys15:24
lupine_85but there's no reason why you couldn't use a bluetooth keyboard :)15:24
lcuk2like tab is there15:25
ccookeI've done a lot of work on the n810 using a bt keyboard. Very nice, it was.15:25
mgedminuse vim people, create mappings -- e.g. make ,( enter [15:25
* lupine_85 is looking forward to the first mobiles with projector chips15:25
ccookeUntil I destroyed the keyboard :-)15:25
lupine_85then you need a bluetooth keyboard and a sheet of A4 paper, and you can do all your development using your phone15:25
lcuk2mgedmin, if i ever get into console editing like that15:25
mgedminnot that I've done any programming on my n8x015:25
* RST38h has problems using bt keyboard on 81015:25
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lcuk2i am going to map the accelerometer to the quit combination15:25
lcuk2when i shake it out of frustration it will close :)15:25
ccookeRST38h: really? how so?15:25
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: ping?15:26
RST38hccooke: it lags badly15:26
lcuk2RST38h, lllllllllllllllllllllllllag?15:26
ccookehuh. Never saw that.15:26
Shapeshifterccooke: actually, dicts as well. in python15:26
lcuk2its the ccccccccccccccccccpu getting stuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk on something15:26
ccookewhat keyboard, so I can avoid it when I replace my old one? :-)15:26
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RST38hccooke: lucky one15:26
Shapeshifterccooke: but I guess I'll get a n900 anyway.15:26
RST38hccooke: Apple BT kbd for me, many other makes for other people, inclluding usb keyboards15:26
lupine_85now, if only the n900 were cheaper :D15:27
lcuk2its not the kb thats struggling15:27
lupine_85still, you have to pay for quality15:27
lcuk2theres  something lowlevel where the cpu gets lagged15:27
ccookeRST38h: probably an artefact of what I was doing, then. Well, I can take being lucky :-)15:27
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mgedminstill, the hardware keyboard never gets ssssssssssssssssssstuck autorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrepeating keys like bt keyboards do15:27
RST38hyeaaaaa rrrrightttt15:28
mgedminI've had the same effect with x2x on desktop linux, controlling a different pc remotely15:28
mgedminhere I attribute that to network delays between 'key down' and 'key up' events making the server think I'm holding it down15:28
lcuk2mgedmin, thhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhats a good point15:28
mgedminmaybe bt lllllllllllllag works in a similar way15:28
RST38hmgedmin; Yes, it takes a while to reach the green men's lunar base...15:29
RST38hWell, Fremantle has removed support for BT keyboards, so this problem is gone15:30
lcuk2RST38h, its a round trip remember15:30
RST38hAin't you all feeling happy, punks? =)15:30
lcuk2because of the positioning between device and keyboard, it must first travel to the moon, then return safely15:30
javispedroyay. Instead of Fixed In Harmattan, "Removed in Harmattan"15:30
javispedrosay goodbye to all libhildon bugs :)15:31
ccookeRST38h: ... no BT keyboard? huh?15:31
mgedminwell, if it doesn't work, why not remove it?15:31
mgedminhaving a broken feature just irritates users15:31
mgedminI'm sure there'll be 3rd party packages15:31
RST38hccooke: they say we can add HD support ourselves15:32
RST38hShould not be difficult15:32
ccookemgedmin: yeah. Remember, this is the first time I've heard it was 'broken' :-)15:32
mgedminHD or HID?15:32
RST38has in humain interface device15:32
ccookeRST38h: indeed, not. The capabilities already exist.15:32
RST38hShit, I am lousy even on this laptop keyboard15:32
AStormShapeshifter: your miracle machine is called a cellphone with any laptop15:34
ShapeshifterAStorm: yeah...15:34
AStormthe only tricky part is accessing the contacts15:35
AStormbut not too tricky with many phones15:35
AStorm(which use files for storage of this stuff)15:35
RST38h <=== anyone can tell me what made them shrink all links from this page to 320x240 size???15:35
AStorme.g. mine has 2 modes - a modem or USB dsik15:35
StskeepsRST38h: iphony?15:36
javispedrodamn iphone and their 320 resolution15:36
AStormactually, many phones have that res15:36
AStormor close15:36
javispedroso now, "mobile version", instead of meaning "plain html, no frills version" means "320 full of shit safari css & js version"15:37
RST38hSts: but why, WHY?15:38
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lupine_85my current phone has 320x240 resolution. it's awful :(15:38
RST38hbtw, gentlemen, whoever ha not discovered it yet:
RST38htry 'em in your microb15:39
javispedroRST38h: at least gmail iphone sucks, unless you use portrait mode.15:39
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RST38hjavis: reader is very nice, so are the docs15:40
RST38hgmail sucks because it also shrinks the damn screen15:40
RST38higoogle is also very decent15:40
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RST38hCanonical engineers prepare the new background picture for Ubuntu desktop:
mgedminElitist Elephant is about 11 years away15:47
mgedminthey're early15:47
mgedminit'll take a while to cycle through the rest of the alphabet15:47
RST38hmgedmin: they have been using a piece of elephant's butt for the desktop background for years now15:47
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* RST38h uses it on his n810 in fact =)15:48
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crashanddieoh yeah baby... private static final String[] HEX_STRING_VALUES = {"0", "1", "2", "3", "4", "5", "6", "7", "8", "9", "10", "A", "B", "C", "D", "E", "F"};16:00
RST38hThat is a Java programmer for you.16:00
SpeedEvil :)16:01
RST38h(and yes, it gets much worse than that)16:02
MaceN8x0what a fluke that turned out to be16:03
MaceN8x0"use anything on anything"16:03
threshwait, 10 ?!16:03
threshwhy the hell is 10 there?!16:04
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aolwrite once test everywhere16:04
nomisthresh: thanks, I managed to miss that gem  :)16:04
aolnice to do J2ME programs for mobile phones, you have to test on every model where as native software run much wider selection16:04
threshthat's another WTF in that string, yeah16:04
aol"10" is nice touch IMO16:05
nomis(in fact having a LUT for the hex digits is something I did at some point as well)16:05
nomisinsofar not that much WTF for the rest.16:05
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RST38hnomis: const char *Hex = "0123456789ABCDEF";16:06
RST38hthat is how it is done.16:06
MaceN8x0native software runs on a wider selection16:06
nomisright  :)16:06
RST38hMacer: "If Java is the answer, then what the hell was the question?!?"16:07
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nomisand to chip in a bit for Java: it *is* better than C++. Not that that means very much...  :)16:07
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RST38hBetter in what aspect?16:09
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MaceN8x0wasnt c++ supposed to be universal also?16:10
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RST38hC++ is just C with functions inside structs16:10
nomisRST38h: plus a lot of ambiguities added.16:11
RST38hIt is not universal in theory, but has become pretty universal in practice16:11
RST38hnomis: Yes, but you can avoid these by not using parts of C++ standard16:11
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MaceN8x0RST38h, seems like the opposite direction of java16:11
RST38hMacer: Java came AFTER C++16:11
nomisRST38h: right. Everybody restricts himself to a subset of C++. The trouble is, that this is specific to the programmer.16:12
RST38hMacer: Java was a pet project by some Sun engineer who said he was going to "fix" all the C++ problems16:12
RST38hnomis: Not much16:12
RST38hnomis: We do have some quarrels about this at work, but very mild ones16:12
MaceN8x0by turning it into c++ in reverse?16:12
nomisalso you have niceties in the language like "AA BB(CC);" in the top level of a C file being quite ambiguous.16:12
RST38hMacer: No, by making an interpreted language with C++-like syntax16:12
nomis(which makes compiling C++ hard and slow)16:12
nomiseh, a C++ file of course.16:13
RST38hYea, debugging a crash in a global data constructor can be a bitch16:13
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nomisRST38h: so you think it is not a function prototype?  :)16:13
RST38hMacer: But while Sun was pushing Java down everyone's throat, a weird thing occurred with C++16:13
RST38hnomis: Ah, you mean that...depends on the context16:14
RST38hMacer: First, everyone eventually standardized on GCC, which fixed incompatibility problems between compilers16:14
nomisright. C++ is way more context sensitive than C, so the compiler has to take a lot more guesses until it gets it right. --> slower compilation.16:14
RST38hMacer: Second, the huge variety of different CPU architectures shrunk to about 3 or 416:15
RST38hMacer: So, nowadays, if you are a decent C++ programmer, your program will run without changes on just about anything16:15
RST38hMeanwhile, Java adepts discovered that the real shit starts not with the language, but when you have 100+MB of platform libraries which are real easy to become incompatible even between tertiary releases16:16
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RST38hHence you now have Eclipse-based "solutions" that come with their own copy of Eclipse that comes with its own copy of Java runtime, which I summarily delete off any computer I work on.16:17
vanksidoes maemo support rsap?16:17
Khertan_Hello !16:17
kirmavanksi: I think I heard somewhere that it, at least initially, wouldn't have it.16:18
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vanksikirma, ok, thanks, even google doesn't seem to know16:19
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kirmaI can't say I'm certain, but I *think* I read so somewhere16:19
vanksiStskeeps, remote sim access profile16:19
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kirmabut I'm pretty certain it can be added afterwards, maybe even as a thirt party feature16:20
vanksiyeah, just wondering if i could get the N900 to work with my car handsfree16:21
crashanddievanksi: as as I am aware, no16:21
crashanddievanksi: also, I don't know which version would be supported16:21
crashanddiebut it is definitely something that should be requested16:21
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fiferboylbt: ping?16:25
wazdwow, just got an invitation from
Stskeepsah, inclusion16:28
* RST38h finds it weird how many fake torrent search engines exist16:29
MaceN8x0fake torrent search engines haha16:29
RST38hTry google for <somthing> torrent16:29
MaceN8x0torrents are so 1990s16:29
MaceN8x0like xvid :)16:29
RST38hAnd then following the links16:29
MaceN8x0takes you to a 30 pop up site16:30
MaceN8x0trying to install 50 forms of spyware?16:30
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wazdStskeeps: Q&A session on the Nokia N900 and Maemo 516:31
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Stskeepswazd: ah16:32
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lbtfiferboy: pong16:33
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fiferboylbt:  Hey, how is it going?16:33
lbtI'm a bit snowed under this week. I tried to get back to Qt but I think it'll be the weekend16:33
fiferboyAntonio is going to tag the first Fremantle release either Friday or Monday and is going to put finger scrolling in it16:34
lbtthat's good to hear16:34
fiferboyThere is a small issue with the different properties right now, but I will work on that16:34
lbtI've started to look at webkit - nothing serious though16:35
fiferboyIt is a bit weird that they are not using QAbstractScrollArea for webviews, but I guess that is because they are extending a default WebKit install16:37
lbtI guess so too - they handle events differently too - it's not really a widget container I guess16:38
fiferboyFor the properties - is there a reason we don't just install a Q_PROPERTY on the QAbstractScrollArea?16:39
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lbtbinary compatible. Using dynamic apis the code works with and without16:39
lbtso if that's not true then maybe a different answer16:40
amit_usualHi all I am wondering is their a way one could check the direction of wifi connection and also are their any python libraries to use wifi services including checking theb direction?16:42
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lcuk2qwerty12, you about16:46
qwerty12lcuk2: yessir16:46
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asdaflbt, I see you are working on QT. Is the plan to move to QT instead of GTK as default toolkit in maemo?16:47
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lbtasdaf: yes16:47
lbtlong term though - and transitioned16:47
asdaflbt, so will hildon be replaced or ported to qt?16:48
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lbtwe'll find out at the summit I hope16:48
qwerty12X-Fade: pong16:49
lcuk2hey lbt16:49
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lbthi lcuk216:50
lcuk2snowed under isnt good16:50
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crashanddiesnowed above isn't good either16:55
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lbtinteresting ...
asdafsorry, anywone can confirm that n900 has/doesn't have the digital compass?17:12
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lcuk2lbt, as the  article says PAF data is the more important stuff17:17
lcuk2and postcode lists list this are nothing new and always end up  out of date17:17
lcuk2its  actually simpler  just subscribing  with  one of the official sources and getting the  postcode software update17:17
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luke-jrthat data should be public domain...17:18
lcuk2same with all commercial stuff - if you are running as a business you are better to be legit17:18
lcuk2luke-jr, so who pays the people to collate it and keep them in jobs?17:19
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luke-jrlcuk2: the people who want it in the first place?17:19
ccookeasdaf: At least one Nokia person has said it *does* have. However, it's not in any of the official specification lists and I've seen no text mentioning it in English.17:19
ccookeasdaf: so the best that can be said at the moment is "It might have"17:20
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lcuk2luke-jr, mmmm  you seem to  be missing a few things here.  the  postcode information is collated and mainted  by a team of people17:23
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lcuk2who  pays those  information  and how do they get their money  if  they  simply give away the  data17:24
Lorthirki'm sorry, what are we talking about?17:25
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SpeedEvilThe data is not however in the public domain - the postcode file.17:37
SpeedEvilIt is both protected by copyright and database rights.17:37
SpeedEvilLeaking it does nothing.17:37
SpeedEvil(other than make it illegally available)17:38
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SpeedEvilWell - illegal in the UK17:40
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infobotSpeedEvil meant: Well - illegal in the EU17:40
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andre__so does the HIG mention the usage of mnemonics anywhere?17:58
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amrwhaddup yo18:03
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timeless_mbpandre__: heh18:08
timeless_mbpprobably not :)18:08
timeless_mbpit should say "please don't, we're a touchscreen device"18:08
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andre__and it seems like it doesn't18:08
andre__anyway, i'll send a message to maemo-devs first18:08
timeless_mbpafaik, the only main app that violates that rule is XTerm18:09
timeless_mbpand i fully intend to yell at them eventually18:09
timeless_mbpunderlined letters in buttons/menus18:09
timeless_mbpwhich would let you use <alt>+<letter>18:09
timeless_mbpwhich is extremely helpful for n900 users18:09
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* timeless_mbp waits for Stskeeps to find the alt key18:09
Stskeepsi hate gnome-terminal having f10 as a bound key. as a midnight-commander user.18:09
timeless_mbpf10=menu key from windows18:09
aquatixStskeeps: you can disable them all18:09
timeless_mbpshift-f10 = context menu18:10
Stskeepsaquatix: i do18:10
timeless_mbpit makes perfect sense18:10
timeless_mbpyou can't rely on a keyboard to have an alt key18:10
aquatixStskeeps: i'm a mc user too18:10
timeless_mbpso is romaxa18:10
* timeless_mbp thinks you guys are all nuts18:10
Stskeepsf10 = exit mc18:10
aquatixtimeless_mbp: butbutbut, i need alt for irssi!18:11
Mekesc works just fine for irssi...18:11
timeless_mbpaquatix: well, good, you can help Stskeeps hunt for the alt key so he can trigger the X Term mnemonics18:11
mgedminStskeeps: I use alt-0 instead of f1018:12
mgedminesc, fn, 0 on the hw kbd18:12
timeless_mbpmgedmin: on which hw kbd?18:12
mgedminmy n810's18:12
mgedminit's a midnight commander feature: alt+1,2,3,... == <f1>,<f2>,<f3>,...18:13
mgedminnot that I use mc much18:13
mgedminactually, I think I only use mc when I'm ssh'ed in18:13
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Stskeeps <- hell yes18:26
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Stskeepshmm, is it just me or does it seem like council elections this year will require a big bucket of popcorn?18:30
* qwerty12 gets the guns ready ;)18:31
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, yeah, it may end up being interesting. . . .18:37
Stskeepsdid you stand this time?18:37
Stskeepsor did you throw in the towel18:37
* Stskeeps can't recall18:37
andre__i take the popcorn even without the elections.18:37
qwerty12andre__: It's toffee popcorn18:38
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pupnik_i read "coffee popcorn"18:40
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Corsac"Now we are finalising the package, software, hardware, marketing campaign. The goal is to get it out in October," Jaaksi said.18:44
Corsachmhm, "in october" is not really "beginning of october" :/18:44
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glass_when versed like that it's usually "our deadline is end of oct, maybe we'll make it"18:46
SpeedEvilAnd 'the goal' is not 'we will'18:47
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mgedminis the sound a deadline makes18:50
mgedminwhen it passes by18:50
Corsaclike when an app is run on the n900?18:50
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Mace_N8x0maybe a company should give outrageous deadlines18:52
Mace_N8x0like say 8 months when they'll be ready in 218:52
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Mace_N8x0then trumpet how efficient they are :)18:52
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crashanddieMace_N8x0: so you'd rather be given 2 months when really you need 8?18:53
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Myrttiooooo I get to fiddle N900 in a couple of weeks :-D19:01
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aSIMULAteru like fiddling with devices myrtti19:03
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* mgedmin is green with envy19:04
thopiekargot problems getting the fremantle beta sdk working..
MyrttiaSIMULAter: yup19:04
mgedminalthough... I think 'no more cute half-screen virtual keyboard' and feel better19:05
thopiekarsome problem in FREMANTLE-x8619:05
qwerty12mgedmin: I used to use it a *lot* (I IRCed from it, on an N800) but, now, I honestly do not miss it at all19:05
amit_usualthopiekar: You might beed to install the nokia binaries19:05
luke-jrlcuk2: collected? you mean fabricated.19:06
thopiekaramit_usual: k will try that out :)19:06
MyrttiI bought N800 specifically for not having a hw keyboard19:07
* qwerty12 bought it because he's a cheapskate :)19:08
Myrttioh, and with my N95 with I had little use with the GPS19:09
ccookeHmm. Seeing a few people talking about the Cortex A9. Looks fun - I wonder if they'll use it for the next device19:09
Myrttiand I love the idea of two changeable SD card slots19:09
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Myrttibut, to everyone according to their needs19:09
SpeedEvil'Please B: card'19:10
SpeedEvilPlease insert19:10
thopiekaryeah I use my N95 as a bluetooth gps module with ExtGPS :P19:10
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ccookeMyrtti: What about the keyboard didn't you want? (Curious only)19:11
Myrtticcooke: IIRC the scandinavian keyboard layout was either non existant or bad19:11
mgedminin theory everything about the n810 seemed worse19:12
ccookeMyrtti: ah ha.19:12
mgedminin practice, once I saw it with my eyes, I found it prettier19:12
ccookemgedmin: how so?19:12
mgedminand the hw kbd is kinda nice sometimes, despite my preconceptions19:12
Myrtticcooke: rather have a correct vkb that I can switch from en to fi than a wrong kind of fi19:12
mgedminccooke: I'm not sure, the design works better19:12
luke-jrN810 keyboard certainly sucks19:12
mgedminnot as round, not as weirdly fat, no holes in front19:12
mgedminI hated the pictures, loved it when I saw a real one19:13
* ccooke started off on the Psion 5 - I've never wanted a device without a keyboard19:13
ccookeAlthough every single device has had a slightly worse keyboard than the last :-)19:13
luke-jrbuying things for what they *don't* have is pretty dumb, btw ;)19:13
luke-jryou can always ignore these things19:13
ccookemgedmin: I meant what about the n810 looked worse? I've heard complaints about the dpad location and lack of second SD slot, but... for me, the n810 was the first device I could actually consider using.19:14
ccookeadmittedly, GPS was more a nice-to-have and I've actually used it *much* more than I expected19:14
Myrttibut I'm smitten with N900. will have to wait until OpenMind before getting my hands on it, then I'll see how it goes19:15
Myrttiit's with 75% certainty my next phone19:16
* ccooke is very interested in the feel of the keyboard19:16
* mgedmin doesn't know yet if he'll replace his phone, or if he'll carry two devices around -- a n900 with his simple series 40 nokia 660019:16
ccookemight actually be the first time a new device's was better than the last for me in ten years :-)19:16
mgedminccooke: re "looked worse", I dunno, yeah, the dpad looked silly, I suppose19:17
mgedminaesthetics are hard to explain19:17
mgedminI never went to design school19:17
mgedminI don't know why people like things or find them pretty19:17
mgedminI just know when I do or do not in a particular case19:18
ccookemgedmin: people who *did* go to a design school *still* say they're hard to explain19:18
mgedminand I know that other people have different tastes (surprisingly)19:18
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SpeedEvilccooke: I thought finding bullshit reasons to explain it was a required course.19:20
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mgedminSpeedEvil: that's marketing19:21
fradelizardo, ping19:22
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lizardofrade: hi19:22
fradelizardo, it seems that gtk.HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_HEIGHT (and the hildon size constants in general) are missing in hildon and gtk modules19:22
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frade(using 0.9.0-1maemo11)19:23
frade(using python-hildon 0.9.0-1maemo11)19:23
fradelizardo, is it a known bug? am i missing something?19:23
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* ccooke wonders... of the people travelling from the UK to the summit next month, are any considering the ferry or Eurostar for transport?19:28
lizardofrade: are you sure about that? I think jrocha was using it without problems..19:30
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lizardofrade: I'll check anyway, we are about to release a new version for python-hildon that covers some new API on hildon19:31
lizardojrocha: is gtk.HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_HEIGHT working for you?19:31
jrochalizardo, frade, yes19:31
jrochafrade, one stupid question, are you using python2.519:32
fradejrocha, yes19:32
fradesomebody installed my program from extras-devel and it was working fine for him (!)19:32
fradei wonder if i am taking python-hildon from a wrong repository...19:33
fradei use explicitly python2.519:33
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fradejrocha, can that be a problem?19:33
jrochafrade, I don't think so, you MUST use python2.519:33
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jrochafrade, can you find that variable if you dir(gtk)19:34
fradejrocha, a dir(gtk) and dir(hildon) inside python2.5 doesn't show the HILDON_SIZE_* symbols19:34
jrochait should be inside gtk19:34
fradeyes, no size symbols there :/19:35
jrochamaybe you screwed your gtk instalation?19:35
fradeuhm... wait, i can check the python-gtk2 package version19:35
lizardofrade: here it works just fine:19:35
lizardopython2.5 -c "import gtk; print gtk.HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_HEIGHT"19:35
lizardo<flags HILDON_SIZE_FINGER_HEIGHT of type HildonSizeType>19:35
lizardo(using 0.9.0-1maemo11)19:36
lizardo2.12.1-6maemo7 here too19:36
lizardoI was referring to the hildon version earlier :)19:37
lizardofrade: are you on ARMEL or X86?19:37
lizardofrade: and fremantle ? (just to be sure)19:37
fradelizardo, fremantle, on the device19:37
jrochafrade, you can do one experience, you can remove the gtk module from inside the site-packages of python2.5 temporarily19:37
jrochaand then try to import it19:38
Meizirkki  Whoever wrote that arcticle is retarded..19:38
jrochato check if it's that gtk you're using19:38
lizardofrade: can you run:  "apt-cache policy python-gtk2"   to check where your pygtk package is coming from?19:38
fradethe previous line (import gtk; print gtk....) says "module doesn't has not attribute..."19:38
jrochaor that :)19:38
Meizirkki"The one huge disadvantage ARM faces is that its processors are incompatible with Windows." sounds stupid19:39
lizardofrade: because I've seen some problems before related to the SDK guys silently getting our packages from PyMaemo and importing into the tools SDK repository :)19:39
* SpeedEvil holds up his windows-ARM device19:39
MeizirkkiWindows is incompatible with ARM, saying processor is incompatible sounds stupid19:39 fremantle/free19:39
fradelizardo, wait, i dont have the latest version of python-gtk219:40
fradei have still 6maemo4 or something like that. Upgrading.19:40
GeneralAntillesMeizirkki, the better point: who cares about Windows? ;)19:41
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ccookeGeneralAntilles: too many people. That's the problem :-)19:41
lizardofrade: it could be the one provided in the Maemo SDK repository...19:43
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crashanddieDesign flaws travel in groups.19:44
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kirmaanything that isn't windows looks like a huge disadvantage from viewpoint of a guy that's windows-centric19:45
fradelizardo, jrocha sorry for the noise. It works19:45
kirmaalthough if you hand him for instance a browser that doesn't have a slightest hint of the underlying operating environment, he might be happy until the fact that it's not windows is exposed19:45
fradefor some reason the python2.5-gtk2 package was "hold"19:46
lizardofrade: well, good to know :)19:46
jrochafrade, no problem, happens to the best of us! :D19:46
fradelizardo, jrocha it was installed -6maemo4 or something like that19:46
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lizardohave to go lunch now  , see you later19:46
fradei wonder why the package was on "hold" state... just after a fresh flash19:46
fradesee you later! thanks19:46
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thopiekarhmm can't start the fremantle ui.. tried to fix that problem by reinstalling but the same:
thopiekarX-Fade , jeremiah , jeremiah_ : ping19:48
wazd eeeeeehihihihi :D19:48
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Corsacwithout sound it's a bit less funny I guess?19:49
thopiekarwazd: :D19:50
wazdCorsac: oh, it's senseless without sound :D19:50
thopiekargreat, great, great :D19:50
wazdreeeealy cool :)19:50
wazdWhat if Apple keynote was written by Cohen bros :D
javispedrowazd: the reality distortion field would allow jobs to pee on the public19:52
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* javispedro envisions the newest apple keynote: jobs appears, shows something on a slide, then proceeds to say "Awesome, Awesome, awesome. Thanks for coming and good bye! Ah, one more thing: Gorgeus. See you!". 19:55
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dirk2I'm following Maemo on BeagleBoard instructions I reached '[sbox-maemo-beagle: ~/rootfs ] > fakeroot ./' stage, but this fails with
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mgedminssh rules20:02
suihkulokkidirk2: if you run "apt-get update" on the sbox-maemo-beagle prompt, does it finish without errors?20:03
ccookemgedmin: with screen and ssh... it's actually hard to imagine what you *can't* do, from a system management view :-)20:03
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SudhirI heard that qt based applicatons work very slow on n810. Is it true? What will give better performance a gtk based applicatin or qt based application on n810?20:07
mgedminscreen is just very useful sometimes; but it sucks as often as it rules20:07
mgedminSudhir: probably depends *a lot* on the particular applications in question20:07
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mgedminqt apps probably have to pay the cost of dynamic linking of all the c++ virtual methods on startup20:08
Sudhirmgedmin: I am developing a touch screen based app. Say a map application on which I will use some drag and drop arrows to indicate some places.20:08
mgedmingtk apps usually have fewer references20:08
ccookemgedmin: huh. I've been using screen so long, I'd be hard pressed to survive without it.20:09
mgedminstill, the difference will be measured in milliseconds, and it's a one-time cost20:09
dirk2If I add libcodelockui1 and osso-bookmark-engine to packages list, I get different errors. Later ...20:09
Sudhirmgedmin: so there would not be issues in runtime?20:09
ccookemgedmin: (re: qt slow) it's mostly the memory cost, I think20:09
mgedminSudhir: I've no personal experience with qt versus gtk apps at runtime20:10
mgedminSudhir: do a prototype in both, then measure -- the only way to get a correct answer20:10
ccookemgedmin: qt apps will need to load an entirely new set of libraries, and there isn't really enough space on the n810 for all the GTK libs and all the QT ones... so you're either very, very short of memory or you hit swap, which slows everything down20:10
Sudhirmgedmin: thanks. i guess i will do that exercise.20:10
mgedminyeah, ccooke has a good point -- overall system memory usage is better if all apps use the same libraries20:11
mgedminwhich is also a good reason not to use Python on maemo20:11
mgedminbut you pay for that with increased development costs20:11
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ccookemgedmin: unless someone else already used it, of course20:12
mgedminccooke: one of the things about Python, is that library modules cannot be shared between processes (unlike what happens with C libraries)20:12
ccookemgedmin: really? damnit.20:12
ccookethat's unfortunate20:12
Sudhirmgedmin, ccooke: thanks for the explanation. Where should I look for to get some sample gtk based applications  for n810?20:12
mgedminI believe pypy may get mmappable .pyc files at some point20:13
mgedminSudhir: how about Maemo Mapper?20:13
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mgedminnot exactly a small application, but it uses gtk and deals with maps20:13
mgedminand is open source20:13
Sudhirmgedmin: would i find its source code in maemo repositories?20:13
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ccookeHmm. Wonder if we're using the -OO flag on the python scripts in Maemo20:15
mgedminSudhir: google20:17
mgedminccooke: it doesn't do much20:18
Sudhirmgedmin: thanks I am looking at some google links20:18
mgedminalthough it may conserve some memory... hmm....20:18
mgedminwould be interesting to measure20:18
ccookemgedmin: that's what I thought20:18
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ccookemgedmin: stick "PYTHONOPTIMISE=2" into the environment, and see what difference it makes?20:20
ccookeIIRC that'll be the equivalent of always running with -OO20:20
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ccooke(ah, manpage confirms that :-)20:21
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mgedminsonata is a python app, right?20:21
mgedminVSZ=49868 without -OO20:22
mgedminVSZ=48836 with -OO20:23
ccookehmm. Saving a meg.20:23
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ccookeProbably worth it, actually, given the memory space available20:23
mgedminor 2% of VSZ20:23
mgedminthe scary bit is that *some* apps may be parsing docstrings and using those for correct execution20:24
mgedmine.g. I believe there are parser libraries that require you to define your grammar in docstrings20:24
ccookeah ha...20:24
mgedminand some command-line tools construct their --help message from docstrings20:24
ccookeFun :-/20:24
mgedminso it's a risky thing to turn on by default system-wise20:24
javispedrodoes that happen? O.o20:24
ccookemgedmin: this is the downside of using a parsed structure for commenting20:25
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javispedrothat's what you get when you don't just strip all that to begin with :P20:25
mgedminmight be fine if you document this in your platform porting guide and allow individual packages to override it20:25
ccookeexectuable comments are really quite evil20:25
mgedminis documentation executable?20:25
mgedminI personally dislike the "define grammar in docstrings" bit20:26
mgedminthe --help example appeals to me20:26
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mgedminnot that command-line apps are what maemo is for :)20:26
ccookemgedmin: the problem is, docstrings are the only way to create a multiline comment in python...20:26
mgedminum, no20:27
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mgedminjust put a # in front of every line20:27
ccookemgedmin: that's not a multiline comment, that's a lot of single-line comments20:27
mgedminyou're arguing semantics20:27
ccookeyes, but well-defined ones20:27
mgedmina docstring is not a commentr20:27
ccookeno, but the python tutorials I've seen treat it as one20:28
mgedminif you're arguing about the ease of commenting out many lines, my answer is: get yourself a real editor20:28
ccookeyou're missing the point.20:28
mgedminI abhor people who abuse docstrings for commenting out code20:28
* mgedmin probably is missing the point20:28
mgedminbut arguing on the internet is fun!20:29
ccookedocstrings are *communicated* as a way of commenting code20:29
ccookethat's how they're presented to users.20:29
ccookemgedmin: heh. Far too true.20:30
mgedmingaah, yeah, when you said "commenting", I assumed "commenting out" as in "temporarily disabling code"20:30
mgedminmy bad20:30
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mgedminyeah, I've seen docstrings used inside functions20:30
mgedminI personally dislike that20:31
mgedminI think PEP-8 agrees with me20:31
ccookeI've only used #, myself - done too much coding in languages which don't have multiline comments, so I don't miss it.20:31
mgedminmy view: docstrings document the external API (classes, functions, modules), comments describe implementation details20:33
mgedmindifferent audiences, different semantics, different syntax20:33
* mgedmin is going through FBReader's bug tracker20:33
mgedminthat sounds better than it is20:35
mgedminI'm not looking for bugs I could fix; I'm trying to see if the wishlist I want to suggest is already there ;)20:35
ccookewhat do you want?20:36
javispedroBACK BUTTON! I want hardware BACK BUTTON!!! :P20:38
javispedrosorry ;)20:38
javispedrocome to think of it, fbreader can't map "back" to a hard button20:38
* mgedmin wants a BOOK COVER button, so he could answer "What are you reading?" questions without words20:39
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andre__javispedro, backspace?20:41
* mgedmin digs out an obscure metadata standard for HTML and updates
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javispedroandre__: oh, is that true? a hardcoded mapping? (can't test right now)20:42
javispedro(in case you mean fbreader, of course :) )20:42
andre__i only said "keyboards have a backspace key". didn't read the backlog :-P20:43
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SpeedEvilAlso. A fun app for generic powersaving - has anyone seen the screen security offering using eye-tracking and scrambling what the eye is not looking at?20:43
SpeedEvilIf you did that - but dimmed all but what the eye was looking at20:43
javispedrowhy do they keep calling use cases that require constant monitoring "powersaving" ? ;)20:44
SpeedEvilof course this doesn't work on current backlights20:44
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SpeedEvilYou can powersave while in use by turning off stuff that's not used20:45
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GeneralAntillesjavispedro, FBReader == zoom +/-?20:46
javispedroGeneralAntilles: zoom keys scroll. I want back the "back" toolbar button does, only in a hardware key.20:47
infobotjavispedro meant: GeneralAntilles: zoom keys scroll. I want what the "back" toolbar button does, only in a hardware key.20:47
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* javispedro adds to TODO list....20:48
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lcuk2javispedro, but what does back do20:50
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SpeedEvilIt clearly cues up a Sir-Mix-A-Lot track.20:51
javispedrolcuk2: for example, in epub books, return to Table of Contents. Plucker books, on the other side, have actual hyperlinks and thus back acts like your average web browser's back button.20:51
* SpeedEvil loves big books and he cannot lie.20:52
* javispedro has nearly all technical documentation you could think of in plucker format20:52
lcuk2i love big books full of pictures of women holding their big boos!20:52
javispedro(outdated since I've not cared to update it since the palm days :P)20:52
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SpeedEvilI like html - I have a little backreference script that does backreference links to the first occurance of a proper name that's not been in the past n00 lines20:53
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mgedminmantis is a weird bugtracking system21:00
mgedminjavispedro: the Escape key goes back in *my* fbreader21:01
Stskeepsany of the maemo GTK+ peeps around? having some trouble after we upgraded to maemo-gtk 2.14 and network-manager-gnome :P21:01
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GeneralAntillesjavispedro, I'm not sure I know what the back key does in FBReader.21:10
GeneralAntillesAh, I see.21:10
mgedminhelp you out when you accidentally jump somewhere you didn't intend to jump21:11
mgedminevince should have one21:11
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mgedminnow I remember why I stopped using it21:11
mgedminyou try to use the stylus to pan21:11
mgedminonly to discover the text underneath was a hyperlink warping you to the end of the 300-page document21:11
mgedminthere's no back button21:11
mgedminwhat do you do?21:12
mgedmincurse, is what21:12
mgedminI wish the builtin pdf reader remembered the document and the current page when you closed and re-opened it21:13
mgedminit's kinda very nice otherwise21:13
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javispedromgedmin: escape does nothing here. holding it closes fbreader. either way, escape is reprogrammable keybinding, but "back" is not on the list of possible actions21:15
javispedroGeneralAntilles: easiest way is to grab any Plucker book.21:15
mgedminjavispedro: very interesting21:15
mgedminoops, you're right21:16
mgedminwhy did I think escape was back?21:16
javispedromgedmin: because that's what I'd expect in a Hildon app.21:16
lcuk2*any app21:16
mgedminbecause it works when you accidentally click something like "browse library" or "network search"21:16
lcuk2its the universal oh shit button21:17
mgedminjavispedro: I believe the action is called Undo21:17
mgedminso you can map escape to it21:17
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mgedminyep, the toolbar buttons are mapped to "gotoHome", "undo", "redo" in toolbar.xml21:18
* mgedmin customized toolbar.xml to put smallScrollBackward/smallScrollForward as toolbar buttons, because HARDWARE KEYS SUCK21:18
javispedromgedmin: you're right, thanks!!21:19
javispedromgedmin: they rule for fullscreen.21:19
mgedminyou've a point there, I suppose21:19
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mgedminI find fullscreen to be not colourful enough, and with too small margins, so I don't use it21:19
lcuk2i never liked touching the screen in fbreader21:20
javispedromgedmin: so I put 10 px margins and set white over black text21:20
lcuk2one tap and the doc would go south21:20
mgedminyeah, tap scrolling is completely unusable21:20
javispedrolcuk2: worst is when one tap in ToC would go... well, anywhere.21:20
mgedminwhich is why I settled for toolbar buttons21:20
lcuk2its why i like grab scrolling21:20
mgedmindon't get me started about the size of tappable areas in the library view21:20
lcuk2it never mattered21:20
mgedminwhich is why I only ever use the add book dialog21:21
mgedminwhy can't fbreader do panning?21:21
mgedmin(answer: because nobody wrote a patch)21:21
mgedminthat too21:21
* javispedro removes something from this TODO list, thanks to mgedmin.21:21
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lcuk2i think the kindle has a faster refresh rate21:21
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mgedminbut fbreader doesn't flicker21:21
* lcuk2 makes a point to try it21:21
* mgedmin is a fan of double-buffering21:21
Captain_Picardany NEW ON N900?21:22
javispedrothe kindle? faster refresh rate? eink???21:22
lcuk2mgedmin, i used to see it draw21:22
mgedminactually, fbreader *does* flicker if you're fullscreen, or if you rotate the text21:22
ccookehmm. There's a thought. If there's no escape key, that's going to make a load of console apps *much* harder to use21:22
mgedminnon-fullscreen updates seem instant to me21:22
lcuk2you have low refresh eyes21:22
lcuk2eat more carrots21:22
mgedmineink sounds like something e-pigs would say21:22
mgedmineink, eink eink21:22
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lcuk2javispedro, id actually quite like to hack on a kindle21:23
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javispedromgedmin: glad you didn't hear "Gyricon" then.21:23
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mgedminwhat's that?21:23
javispedroxerox's version of eink (they were first btw)21:24
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andre__anybody can tell me how composite chars work in windows xp? in linux i can enter ~ and then n and i get ñ21:27
andre__is there something similar in windows?21:27
andre__(or the same concept?)21:27
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johnsqandre__: alt keycode21:27
andre__you mean like alt and then using the numpad to enter "232"?21:28
suihkulokkijavispedro: xerox seems well into the "invent first and let others take the market" business :P21:28
johnsqandre__: yes21:28
Stskeepsandre__: it depends on the keymap21:29
GeneralAntillesI love option keys.21:29
GeneralAntillesDunno how you guys do it in Linux and Windows.21:29
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andre__i want to know about windows.21:29
andre__yes, this is another case of discussing with managers that the linux way might NOT be intuitive when selling a Maemo5 device :-P21:29
crashanddieI've been hearing that name quite a lot? Is this some new hype?21:29
andre__crashanddie, "microsoft windows" is the complete name. just google it21:30
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, we keep telling you you need to wash them.21:30
javispedrosuihkulokki: very true. and sad.21:30
crashanddieAnother web 2.0 bloatware and vaporware company eh?21:30
andre__my question still stands.21:31
andre__useful answers are welcome.21:31
Stskeepsandre__: my windows in danish lets me use ~ (a dead key) plus n :P21:31
Stskeepswhich is the sane method sometimes21:31
andre__Stskeeps, oh nice21:31
spoleebahypothetical question:  What would be the best way to find someone to contract with to write a high quality maemo application under NDA?21:31
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mgedminask someone on IRC?21:31
* mgedmin ducks21:31
spoleebamgedmin, no21:31
crashanddiespoleeba: talk to lcuk221:31
Stskeepsspoleeba: put out a tender and evaluate skills and performance in the past? :P21:32
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mgedminthere are companies (I think Collabora is one) that have been doing exactly that for Nokia21:32
crashanddieopenedhand as well21:32
Stskeepsspoleeba: really depends on the type of ap21:32
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spoleebaStskeeps, its for demonstration purposes for something else21:33
javispedroIn Microsoft Word, a capital Ñ can be typed by pressing [CTRL]+[Shift]+[~] and then pressing "N"21:33
crashanddiespoleeba: I repeat, talk to lcuk221:33
spoleebacrashanddie, thanks21:33
javispedromicrosoft reinventing input methods for every other app.21:33
* Stskeeps votes for lcuk2 to21:33
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crashanddieluck two too?21:34
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wazdNow I know who Eldar reminds me21:38
wazdGypsy :D21:38
wazd"I predict n900 will not sell in Russia! Or it will"21:38
lcuk2did someone mention my name21:38
GeneralAntillesWe don't care for you.21:38
lcuk2\o/ bah21:38
GeneralAntillesGo was the windows with crashanddie.21:38
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Go wash the windows with crashanddie.21:38
lcuk2you might not, but others do21:39
GeneralAntillesYour imaginary friends don't count.21:39
wazdlcuk2: go was DOS :D21:39
wazddamn, same typo :)21:39
GeneralAntillesIt's contagious!21:39
wazdfail :(21:39
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X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: ping?22:20
Stskeepsandre__: re 5117, sure libalarm doesn't exist? it's very much alive in beta222:23
andre__uargh, did i say this for fremantle? damn22:23
Stskeepsi'll add some wise comments22:24
andre__yes, of course it does exist22:25
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: your failure has always been contagious22:27
qwerty12_N810X-Fade: yessir?22:28
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X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: rootsh is heading for Extras ;)22:29
qwerty12_N810Heh :)22:30
Stskeepsfirst package to reach?22:30
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X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: First app.22:30
* Stskeeps gets out the champagne 22:30
X-FadeI still need to do some backend scripting to unlock it, but I'll give qwerty12_N810 the honours tomorrow to push the button..22:31
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qwerty12_N810Do I get a Rolls Royce delivered to my house too? :)22:32
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X-Fadeheh ;)22:33
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, good thing it's so limited. ;)22:33
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: you're about as limited as a aids-infected crackwhore :P22:35
crashanddieincredibly resourceful, and you could probably get whatever it is you need, but in the end, you'll end up fucked22:35
qwerty12_N810Meaning that you'll end up like crashanddie22:36
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crashanddieqwerty12_N810: at least, we'll get fucked in our lifetime, q22:36
qwerty12_N810Right.. So what's your limit on how much you'll spend on doing so, by a whore?22:38
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crashanddieqwerty12_N810: I have a well paid job, I don't have a limit22:38
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lcuk2course you do.  i still remember the time the pimp beat you up cos you tried to pay by cheque.22:40
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crashanddielcuk2: that's just because I was trying to save your ass, as you tried to bribe him with nectar points22:41
qwerty12_N810crashanddie: Nice... Have a good time getting herpes and paying a lot for the privilege. Because, let's face it, only way you're gonna get it safe is with a blow-up doll, or your hand22:41
crashanddieqwerty12_N810: right :)22:41
crashanddieqwerty12_N810: I suggest you don't go too far, you might hear things that hurt your ears22:42
crashanddieand no, the tongue-in-cheeck smiley doesn't fix everything :)22:42
Stskeepsslonopotamus: bored?22:42
slonopotamusStskeeps, uh?22:43
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qwerty12_N810crashanddie: Please, by all means, say this stuff that will "hurt my ears"22:43
Stskeepsslonopotamus: retutime would be a good choice for reimplementation :P22:43
crashanddieqwerty12_N810: just leave it at that22:43
slonopotamusStskeeps, trying to figure out proper CAL write places without bricking my tablet :)22:44
lcuk3isnt that kinda like brain surgery on yourself22:44
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lcuk3without a mirror22:44
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crashanddie"Hey, I wonder what this squooshy thing does... kwak... kwak.... baaaaaaaaaah"22:45
* lcuk3 vanishes anyway22:46
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lcuk3cyas later22:46
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* GeneralAntilles opened System Preferences for some goddamn reason. . . .22:48
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* javispedro rushes to read qgil's post in 3d accel thread23:15
javispedro"3 emails exchanged this week, to give you a specific example. " yay23:15
javispedro c'mon, give qgil another round of karma, he deserves it for any progress at all :)23:17
Stskeepsmm, i guess i should reply to an email related to that23:18
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javispedroStskeeps: post in that thread too and get some karma from me! :)23:19
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GeneralAntillesjavispedro, the karma pimp.23:23
javispedrojust wait until I finish registering all those puppet accounts23:23
Stskeepsjavispedro: do you have any questions you want answered?23:24
GeneralAntillesPff, there's no way you'll ever catch up to all of the sock puppet I, apparently, have on wikipedia. :P23:24
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Pff, there's no way you'll ever catch up to all of the sock puppets I, apparently, have on wikipedia. :P23:24
javispedroStskeeps: your question made my head hurt. which kind of question? is "what can we expect out of the 'deal'?" a valid one?23:26
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, why is the sky blue?23:27
lbtGeneralAntilles: dust23:27
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: spectrum of light something23:27
lbtnow ask about the plane on the runway23:28
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javispedrowhat is the odour of the sky?23:34
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javispedrojavispedro: my dog has no nose. how does he smell? awful!23:38
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rzrcan you suggest some free alt to wayfinder ?23:48
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GeneralAntillesrzr, Maemo Mapper?23:51
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ZrZGeneralAntilles: ok let me try this23:52
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* timeless_mbp chuckles23:53
timeless_mbphow about "working product"23:53
* timeless_mbp wouldn't call the bundled products "working"23:57
wazdjeez, new Rammstein video is absolutely freaky :D23:57
javispedrotimeless: last time I saw, the browser was "bundled" ;)23:57
timeless_mbpjavispedro: no, the browser is integrated23:57
timeless_mbpmaps are bundled23:58
* qwerty12_N810 coughs23:58
timeless_mbpplease note the same distinction applies for the n900 :)23:58
timeless_mbphere's one way to tell that maps aren't integrated:23:58
timeless_mbpcontacts support address fields23:58
luke-jrhere's another:23:58
timeless_mbpif the address field can't be used to open maps, and if maps can't find / use contacts, it isn't integrated23:59
luke-jrI can't tell it to locate wifi APs and find the best route from Omaha to KC stopping at them every hour or two, and planning out my meal stops to make the fastest yet nutritionally competent trip23:59

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