IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-01-09

RST38hNot just quality but the number of different visual platforms00:00
wazdMaemo will be ok with just 2, touch and stylus00:00
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RST38hSame Windows, for example, may operate in 16 fixed colors or 256 colors or truecolor00:00
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RST38hAt different resolutions, from 320x240 to 1280x768 and higher00:00
wazdThere are som nice tries on desktops00:01
RST38hOf course you need scalable icons in such environment00:01
wazdSome thought to use 3D icons00:01
lcukif the engine is capabile, why not?00:01
lcukcapable even00:02
wazdRight now Win and OS X are already using some 3D effects, so I think they can invite Carmack to make an "OS3D engine" for them :)00:03
lcuk3d desktop paradigm doesnt fit for most people00:03
wazdnot 3d desktop00:04
wazdjust rendering methods00:04
lcukbut using the 3d renderer efficiently for drawing is desirable00:04
RST38hThere is alrady a Carmackian 3D window manager for Linux00:04
RST38hBut may I ask something?00:04
lcukthey already do that though00:04
RST38hWhat does having 3D icons or 3D workspace actually give you in terms of productivity?00:04
wazdRST38h: well, Compiz is more showcase that actual usability)00:04
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RST38hAnd if it is mainly eyecandy, then is it worth spending resources on?00:05
wazdRST38h: I would imagine some infinite zooming desktop, where you can set the size of the icons you want, so you can make some icon piles :)00:06
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RST38hYes, true, in fact one guy at out university worked on this kind of desktop00:07
wazdVery intuitive way of arrangement :)00:07
johnxerrr...have to disagree on compiz not aiding productivity00:07
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lcukwazd :)00:08
Stslaptopalready up? jesus, you don't sleep much, johnx? :P00:08
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qwerty12_N800morning(?) johnx00:08
johnxseeing wife off to work, then might catch some more sleep :)00:08
lcukjohnx, you havent been to bed yet since you vanished 4 hours ago :P00:08
johnxlcuk, have actually :P00:08
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lcukok, have you slept00:09
wazdSo 3D desktops are good in the right hands :)00:10
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wazdBut not on the mobile devices for now, cause the penalty is too big00:11
johnx|not-awakelcuk, I have, actually, for around 3 hours00:11
* Stslaptop brews johnx a pot of coffee00:11
* lcuk adds sugar to it00:12
* wazd brews jonx00:12
johnx|not-awakelcuk, Stslaptop, appreciated but I'm already working on that :)00:12
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johnx|not-awakewazd, O_o :P00:12
wazdBest way to wake)00:12
johnx|not-awakehmmm...the one thing I'd want in a 3D desktop on a handheld is a nice expose-style "wall of live window previews" that I could touch00:13
wazdThat's 2D00:13
RST38hwazd: The weird thing is that I am looking at this shiny 3D MacOSX desktop is all I see is 10+ years old CDE00:13
lcukuse the accel to show direct overlay00:13
RST38hOk, the icons are shinier and they jump. Big deal.00:13
b-man@johnx; lol, no coffie yet? :)00:13
johnx|not-awakewazd, then why is it never done with 2D desktops...and I mean, never00:13
wazdRST38h: It's mostly 3D effects there)00:14
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wazdRST38h: 2D*00:14
RST38hWhat is the point in them then?00:14
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wazdRST38h: eye candy)00:14
johnx|not-awakeRST38h, to sell computers00:14
RST38hAnd aside from contextual zooming, is there any point in making desktop 3D? (btw, contextual zooming is also 2D)00:14
RST38hjohnx: And apart from that?00:14
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johnx|not-awakeRST38h, on desktops I enjoy the 4-desktop view and wobbly windows that stick to screen edges for easier arrangement00:15
wazdRSAT38h:If we'll use 3d models for icons, as we discussed before, than it'd be 3D)00:15
johnx|not-awakeand yes, the wobbly bit does provide feedback as to what it's "attached" to00:16
wazdApple has no other goals than to sell hardware :)00:16
johnx|not-awakebut with a limited-multitasking, fullscreen window manager, you're right, I don't see much point00:16
wazdEverything works for that :)00:16
lcukjohn, you are obsessed with having your wobbly windows stick to the edges :P00:17
johnx|not-awakelcuk, it's good feedback and it helps with organization00:17
wazdThe bad example of "how UI FX's should not be done" is an iPhone apparently00:18
lcuksticky windows is good in its place, but it interupts where the direct mouse placement lives on the frame you are moving00:18
johnx|not-awakelcuk, hence wobbly :P00:18
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wazdApple has sacrificed multitasking for jumpling pins00:18
lcukso if you are holding with stylus right in centre of a square and it is pulled or pushed off centre it screws you mind - its simpler with a mouse and less noticable00:18
wazddamn, I'm starting to miss the keys :)00:19
lcukapple has sacrificed multitasking because its not required (and also not practical to have the UI opening multiple instances and windows)00:19
wazdlcuk: that's what they said to you :)00:20
lcukincidentally, clutter is single instance as well00:20
qwerty12_N800Not required? From who's point of view?00:20
wazdlcuk: Who needs radio/stylus/multitasking?)00:20
lcukfrom the millions of ppl with phones00:20
RST38hwazd: But what are you gonna do with 3D icons? Rotate them ? =)00:21
johnx|not-awakelcuk, "not required" and "too hard to do right" aren't the same thing00:21
wazdlcuk: you cant chat in ICQ/Jabber and surf the web00:21
Stslaptopheh. like when macs didn't have real multitasking..00:21
lcuk:D heh good point entirely johnx00:21
RST38hwazd: I mean, icons are basically road signs and road signs, for all their physical reality, are not 3D00:21
johnx|not-awakeor download something in the background, IIRC ... but that doesn't matter because you can't download files00:21
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tank-mancan't download files with what?00:22
* RST38h kinda remembers that Macs also did not have real memory management =)00:22
lcukdoes the media player carry on with music whilst you play with other apps?00:22
wazdiPhone doesn't have multitasking cause it can't do it00:22
johnx|not-awaketank-man, iphone? am I wrong?00:22
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wazdit's UI eats too much CPU00:22
lcukits ui is driven by powervr00:23
lcukthe cpu is idle00:23
wazdWell, then OS X eaths too much CPU, okay :))00:23
lcukif it ate too much cpu the battery life would be really poor00:23
RST38hiPhone does have multitasking00:23
johnx|not-awakewazd, I'm not convinced of that. I bet they were worried about the same kind of things that cause "battery drain" posts on ITT: badly behaved apps00:23
wazdThere are multitasking software on jailbroken iPhones00:23
wazdAnd it runs like crap00:24
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RST38hApple does not allow background apps, but it is NOT the same as not having multitasking00:24
lcukthe core system can multitask, it just has no functionality to multitask user apps00:24
RST38hit is not really a technical problem but a policy problem00:24
lcukbit of both RST38h00:24
wazdRST38h: ofcourse OSX supports and does it sometimes, but we're simplifing :)00:24
RST38hlcuk: you can fork() on iPhone00:24
RST38hlcuk: so technically it is no problem00:24
lcukbut you cant both be drawing to the graphics surface at the same time00:25
lcukso you would need some way to handle that part00:25
RST38hlcuk: That is true for many, MANY platform00:25
RST38hStarting with Windows :)00:25
lcukon linux we have x11 to handle that for us00:25
wazdUI demos of Pre, BTW00:25
RST38hAh, lcuk, on most ARM platforms framebuffer is just an area of memory00:25
lcukbut this isnt most devices00:26
lcukits the powervr00:26
RST38hSo "not being able to write at the same time" is mostly hypothetical :)00:26
lcukand the framework for doing it00:26
RST38hThere ARE cases where you write may interfere with the video DMA00:26
RST38hFor those you need some API to know where video DMA currently is00:27
lcukyou just need a render queue, but thats hypothetical00:27
lcuksince we arent apple engineers00:27
lcukwow wazd :) it does look simple enough00:27
RST38hYou do not need a render queue00:28
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RST38hYou need windows (i.e. x,y,w,h,stride) + locking + you have to promise not to shit outside your window boundaries00:29
wazd"It's so simple that the only thing you can see is gorgeous wallpaper". What's the point of seeing the wallpaper?)00:29
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RST38hwazd: The rest of the UI is a quick iPhone knockoff but the wallpaper is different. That is the point.00:29
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glasstalking of palm 2.0: the turd?00:30
johnx|not-awakehey, there's a hardware keyboard. I'll give them benefit of the doubt00:30
* RST38h would not call it the turd, but it does call to mind a certain mountain giving birth to a mouse...00:30
RST38hjohnx: This is no longer a distinguishing factor though.00:31
glassRST38h: it's the iphone 1.5y after the iphone with no promise of native apps00:31
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RST38hjohnx: If they had e70-style fold out keyboard, I would look twice.00:31
glassRST38h: and apparently a sprint only thing too? not a company saver00:31
johnx|not-awakeRST38h, I know you hated Palm from a development perspective, but I'm a big fan of what they were doing with their UI00:31
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* RST38h does not hate Palm, Palm's UI was pretty nice00:32
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RST38hThe problem was *the rest* of the OS00:32
RST38hIf they took the original Palm UI, made it into a library and moved it to Linux backend, I would be the first to applaud00:32
RST38hInstead, the knocked off iPhone. Again.00:33
wazdAh! My task swithcer! (almost)00:34
wazd"Throw away"((00:35
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Gracklethere's some lisp stuck in your chat00:36
* b-man ponders why palm allwase stuck with a 10+ year old UI :p00:37
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* wazd wonders if he can sue Palm with using invented gesture :)00:38
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johnx|not-awakeb-man, because they did it right the first time00:40
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* GeneralAntilles cared for Palm.00:41
GeneralAntilless/cared/never cared/ :P00:42
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, weren't in the market for a PDA ten years ago?00:44
wazdDamn, I'm really depressed... Site is useless, UI is stolen :(00:44
Stslaptopjohnx|not-awake: i wonder how difficult it would be to take non-hildon apps, and instead of hildonizing them, full screening them instead?00:44
GeneralAntillesUsed an M105 for a while00:45
GeneralAntillesFriends had a lot of Clies00:45
GeneralAntillesIt just doesn't compare to the PDA-ness of the Newton00:45
GeneralAntillesand it's not the mobile computer that I've always wanted (and got with Maemo).00:45
* qwerty12_N800 preferred winmo to palm00:45
qwerty12_N800Stslaptop, very easy00:46
Stslaptopqwerty12_N800, and pondering what kind of effect it could have00:46
johnx|not-awakeStslaptop, we could, but most have a fullscreen option already00:46
* b-man nods00:46
Stslaptopyeah, but i'm thinking in terms of stripping away decorations and just have it fill the screen, and allow one to switch apps back with the home button00:47
Stslaptopkinda like how it is with games00:47
Stslaptopand bring more apps to the tablets that way00:47
b-man /m ponders on how he can improve merinstaller00:47
* b-man ponders on how he can improve merinstaller - sorry :p00:48
Stslaptopb-man: a quick going over with a spell check always improves things, and trying to find out if other N810 users have the internal/external check reversed, or if Meiz's tablet is just odd00:48
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* timeless looks up at the words 'spell check'00:50
Stslaptopor whatever.00:50
* Stslaptop 's caffeine level is getting dangerously low.00:50
timelessoh, just wondering what you're checking00:50
timelessi'm not complaining00:50
Stslaptoptimeless: what users will see :P00:50
b-mani think i need to advertise it a little more so people can test my installer ;)00:51
Stslaptopb-man: yeah.. i think the N810 thing needs to be investigated first00:51
timelesssorry, i'll brb to ask about a url00:51
Stslaptopb-man: so we don't kill more sd cards00:51
Stslaptopi think i'll put a poll up on iTT00:53
* b-man is fusterated, caffeine makes him sleepy :p00:53
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b-manStslaptop; yah ;)00:54
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timelessok, sorry00:57
timelesscan someone point me to a url i could read?00:57
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RST38hPalm stock is way up from the dumpster01:02
* timeless is still confused01:02
timelesscould someone give me a url that explains what's going on? :)01:02
Stslaptopgoing on in what area? :P01:02
timelesswhatever this spell check thing is01:03
johnx|not-awaketimeless, synopsis: b-man, Stslaptop and I talk about Mer. I and others talk about the new Palm thing from CES01:03
timelesswhat's the feature/thing under discusion01:03
timelessok. i'm pretty sure i'm more interested in mer atm01:03
timelessis there some url that actually needs a proof reading pass?01:03
johnx|not-awakeit's a script :)01:03
b-manabout what?01:03
Stslaptop <- poll on if slot_name lies to us consistently or not01:04
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b-mancool :)01:05
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Stslaptopat least we can point to a poll if we change around things if anyone complains we nuked their SD :P01:09
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Stslaptoprzr: regarding mer on 770, r2d2rogers is the guy to talk to about that01:18
Stslaptopsince you asked about that earlier01:18
rzrho really ? that's good01:18
rzrr2d2rogers: have you tested it ?01:18
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tehforumAre there any familar faces01:19
Stslaptophighlighting people randomly is a bit rude :)01:20
tehforumI was checking if xchat worked01:20
Stslaptopnormally people say hi when they are on and recognize you :)01:20
GeneralAntillesXChat works01:20
Stslaptophehe, okay01:20
tehforumYes, thanks.01:20
tehforumyeah, this does look better than pidgin01:20
johnx|not-awakeyour first step into a larger world :)01:21
tehforumThis is my first step into IRC01:21
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* GeneralAntilles chuckles some more at the cellphone people on itT.01:23
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, the cellphone people on the open pandora forums are better O_o01:24
GeneralAntillesjohnx|not-awake, it's a bizarre mindset to me.01:26
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, from a purely aesthetic standpoint I could almost see it working on an n800 with different speaker/mic placement...but the pandora is a laptop-style device01:28
GeneralAntillesThe whole "IT MUST BE A PHONE OS OR IT WILL DIE!!!!" thing is just weird.01:28
johnx|not-awakewell, it probably needs a 3G modem to be viable at very least01:29
GeneralAntillesFun stuff:
johnx|not-awakeand being what it is, it will be a niche product if it's not also a phone...01:30
wazdWHO SAID PHONE?!01:31
GeneralAntillesjohnx|not-awake, well, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.01:31
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, he's somewhat right...01:31
RST38hGeneral: I have promised to myself to abstain from commenting on 351901:31
wazdI'm slill thinking if it's convenient to use Pandora's touchscreen01:32
RST38hGeneral: But off the record, let us just say that Quim is directly telling us all to shut up and stop pestering him with our "contributions"01:32
GeneralAntillesRST38h, pfft.01:32
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, other people disagree about whether it's ok for Nokia to release a tablet that doesn't immediately take over the world. Some people have some kind of vested interest in the things they like being popular. some kind of validation of their choice or something01:32
StsN800i can sortof relate to the problem of that tablets need to be diverse from day 1.. if someone wants some ubuntu app in maemo, it should be easy as eating cake01:32
GeneralAntillesRST38h, try not to be so ridiculously reactionary.01:32
RST38hGo work on Mer instead and let Nokia develop its commercial product professionally01:33
RST38hGeneral: I'm already trying my best, really.01:33
GeneralAntillesand, apparently, failing if that's what you think he actually "means".\01:33
RST38hGeneral: Well, there are several possible interpretations but they are all somewhere around what I have just said =(01:34
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GeneralAntillesIf you must try to pin it somebody, pin it on Nokia, not Quim.01:34
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GeneralAntillesBecause if anybody's fighting our cause in Nokia, it's him.01:35
RST38hGeneral: Not blaming the messenger really01:35
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, yeah, but keep in mind he's arguing Nokia's case to us. nothing to blame him for of course, just something to keep in mind01:35
GeneralAntilles[6:32pm] <RST38h> General: But off the record, let us just say that Quim is directly telling us all to shut up and stop pestering him with our "contributions"01:35
GeneralAntillesjohnx|not-awake, it's not a one-way street.01:36
RST38hGeneral: Well, the comment *is* from Quim. But he is obviously representing Nokia01:36
GeneralAntillesEither way, the reality is a lot less nefarious and malicious than you seem to be making it out to be.01:36
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, of course not. just have to keep in mind Nokia has their own interests at heart, no ours, so we have to watch out for ourselves01:36
GeneralAntillesjohnx|not-awake, watching out for our own interests doesn't involve seeing malice in every Nokia's every action.01:37
RST38hGeneral: Nothing malicious here, just a statement of the fact that outside contributions to core system components are not gonna happen01:37
GeneralAntillesRST38h, that's BS.01:38
GeneralAntillesTwo patches aren't going to be shipped for a deprecated platform.01:38
GeneralAntillesWhich is another thing entirely from "no patches will be accepted"01:38
RST38hGeneral: The Fremantle will get deprecated in 4-6 months since its release01:38
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, with the current development model of Nokia, what we have in our hands is always "deprecated"01:38
GeneralAntillesPatches already HAVE been accepted.01:38
RST38hGeneral: Which ones?01:38
GeneralAntillesMost recently, the series of patches to h-a-m.01:39
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RST38hApp manager?01:39
johnx|not-awakethe categories ones?01:39
RST38hThat is not a core system component01:39
GeneralAntillesThe package management isn't a platform component?01:39
GeneralAntillesBugzilla's layout would seem to disagree with you.01:39
GeneralAntillesjohnx|not-awake, that's why Nokia is working on changing their workflow.01:40
RST38hh-a-m is a UI wrapper for apt-get01:40
johnx|not-awakeGeneralAntilles, I'll believe it when I see it. not before.01:40
RST38hIt is not a core system component01:40
* GeneralAntilles throws up his hands.01:40
johnx|not-awakeThey ran out of "benefit of the doubt" credit with me01:40
RST38hCore system components are kernel, drivers, crucial daemons, x1101:40
GeneralAntillesSuit yourselves01:40
* RST38h already said more than he was going to, sorry01:41
StsN800kernel? igor suggested linux-omap which is fair :P01:41
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StsN800coffee worked?01:44
johnxyeah, will stay up and hack01:44
RST38hall right, 2:44, time to sleep01:44
johnx'night RST38h01:45
b-mansee ya RST38h01:45
johnxok, palm pre is kind of impressing me01:45
wazdI have 2:28 somehow)01:45
StsN800wazd, in the twilight timezone01:46
* b-man trys looking in engadget to see why people are excited about palm01:48
* b-man goes eats dinner01:49
wazdI wonder if all those modern OS'es are resolution-independent01:52
tehforumthe maemo wiki is very interesting01:54
johnxwazd, os x on the desktop is getting there. I know nothing about iphone. android is pretty close to resolution independent01:54
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GeneralAntilleswazd, it's supposedly on the roadmap for Maemo.01:58
johnxwonder how they plan to do that ...01:59
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, dunno, I saw it mentioned a while ago, so maybe it's not longer true.02:00
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wazdThe only Android problem is the wallpaper :)02:04
wazdBTW, General, Do you know anything bout revamping?02:05
GeneralAntilleswazd, the style's been finalized02:05
GeneralAntillesLayouts are still largely under discussion02:05
GeneralAntilleswazd, see maemo-community and the wiki02:06
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wazdThanks, I deffinetely should read more(02:06
GeneralAntilleswazd, subscribe to maemo-community and drop in for the monthly sprint meetings and you'll be set.02:07
wazdCause I've made a mockup when the train was gone(02:08
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wazdI'll do it02:08
wazdIs finalized design available or it's hidden?)02:10
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GeneralAntillesIt's available02:11
GeneralAntillesLet me dig up the link02:12
wazdThanks a lot!02:12
GeneralAntillesSlightly messy HTML:
GeneralAntillesMaybe slightly outdated proper mockup:
wazdThanks, see it02:14
wazdWhat do you think bout that
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GeneralAntillesLooks good02:16
GeneralAntilleslittle baren02:16
GeneralAntillesbut nice02:16
wazdMinimalism is the best style to start a big project)02:17
wazdYou can always fill it with media02:17
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wazdDamn, you had a meeting yesterday! I totally suck (((02:20
GeneralAntillesmaemo-community is the best list to keep tabs on stuff. ;)02:21
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wazdAs for design I should say I don't like it ( And that's the worst thing :(02:23
GeneralAntilleswazd, be more on top of things when the next redesign rolls around for Maemo 7. :P02:23
johnxdarn, I really want an omap3 device in my hands now O_o02:24
GeneralAntillesjohnx, don't we all. :(02:25
* GeneralAntilles would've preferred the Elephanta route, I think.02:25
johnxyou'll be happy they spent time picking the bugs out of the omap3 I think :)02:26
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johnxelephanta would have been a 2D UI for the rx-51 and rx-34/4x I bet...02:27
wazdDamn, why everybody tries to copy it :(02:27
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I'm so bored with my N800. :(02:27
johnxGeneralAntilles, that's because it mostly works for you :)02:28
GeneralAntillesI need moar powar02:29
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lcukbeowulf cluster02:31
lcukits the only way02:31
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johnxyeah, my other devices are going to suffer a serious lack of love when I have something omap3 powered in my hands I think :/02:32
lcukive got a more powerful computer sitting infront of me than my 81002:32
lcukbut i cannot touch it02:32
wazdI should do something02:33
johnxlcuk, take it out of the cardboard box?02:33
lcukheh johnx, i meant my desktop, its not the power that this device has that is important.  its the form factor and fact i can literally touch my code02:34
wazdI should do all the templates faster than Glaubert!)02:35
johnxlcuk, of course. I was just being snarky. :) but every omap3 device running linux that I know about has a touch screen02:35
lcuki wanna go potty02:35
lcuki think i just wet myself a little02:35
lcuk:D this is gonna be kickass02:35
lcukhow much do ti charge for dev boards and reference designs?02:36
johnxmore than a beagleboard :)02:37
wazdref-designs are super-expensive02:37
lcukbut a beagle is not a boxed unit02:37
johnxthe beagle is pretty much TI's de-facto "community" dev board, and the design for it is open, IIRC02:37
lcuki could not take that out02:37
wazdI wanted to buy an e-ink e-book ref to bouild my own02:38
johnxdev boards don't come in a box either :P02:38
GeneralAntilleslcuk, just wait for the RX-51 or get a Pandora02:38
lcukthe ti reference designs are cased02:38
johnxhuh, interesting02:38
wazdIt was about $5000 to order02:38
lcukpandora form factor doesnt appeal for now, but that might change02:38
johnxthere's a beagle case as well of course. it's even clear plastic so you can paint it any way you want :)02:38
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, I'm sure you can get your hand on a developer device.02:39
lcukyeah, this x86 tablet isnt doing it for me in the same way an actual handheld does02:40
lcukits great in its place but i cant lug it about, im gonna have it showing my recent sketches :)02:41
lcukconstantly updating and floating up and around the big screen :)02:41
lcukcan also use it to make new ones and stuff02:41
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* johnx is very interested that of all the newest gen of smart phone OSes, Apple's lets you get closest to the metal02:42
lcukand cos they will be synced and in harmony ill never lose another note again :)02:42
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lcukjohnx, different reason, android has to stay away from metal due to multiple arch02:42
johnxand palm learned their lesson on 1) crashy apps taking down the system and 2) getting tied to the m68k for 10+ years02:43
lcukwe have seen this palm os now, its very sweet02:43
lcukbut what we dont know is performance - if its a battery killer02:43
GeneralAntillesWhy would it be?02:44
johnxit'll probably idle fine, but html rendering is a heavy task no matter what kind of CPU you have02:45
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wazdIf I'm earning money for making websites, my vote counts?)02:46
wazdI can make another functional template along with Glaubert and then you'll compare. Or I can help Glaubert.02:49
wazdDamn, I've made such a great fault :(02:50
GeneralAntilleswazd, well, dive in.02:50
GeneralAntillesdneary, Jaffa and timsamoff are the ones to be talking to.02:51
wazdOh, I can write Tim, I'm already have a chat with him bout guidelines and stuff :)02:51
wazdI really want to help Maemo somehow, don't know actually why, but I definitely want :)02:52
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lcukwazd, you already are :) your new year presentation helped focus at least my mind :) and you layout and discussions are elevating02:53
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GeneralAntilleswazd, if only we had some more coders to implement your UI ideas.02:54
timelessmore ui ideas?02:54
* timeless still needs to write up two ideas02:54
wazdVery nice to hear it, really :)02:55
lcukGeneralAntilles, :) they will come02:55
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wazdThat series was a real competition for me02:55
GeneralAntillesFor the time being we're kinda stuck waiting on Nokia.02:55
lcukwaiting on everyone02:56
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lcuki wanted to be further on now and have enough to be able to get a few involved in bashing out this api and stuff whilst i get on with other things02:56
wazdThe biggest surprise was an "applications menu" post cause it was a real "pass thru" post for me, just to post something that day)02:57
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wazdAnd it got such a huge resonance)02:57
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lcukits an important aspect02:57
wazdI really wanted to make more detailed mock-ups but pre-new year week was a real bad time :(02:59
lcukwhat im pondering is better than that :)03:00
wazdBut I got really crazy blog statistics in december, 5000 visitors :)03:01
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lcukwazd, could you do me a favour03:02
lcukwould you make a zip of as many of your graphic primatives at expected size as possible03:03
lcukthe pieces of a desktop all jumbled up :) i wanna make a jigsaw03:04
wazdWell, I've made 800x480 mockups, I can send them03:05
lcukbut when you are making your mockups do you not have little cutouts of all the pieces03:05
wazdI can make them though)03:06
wazd - thats the original03:06
lcukahhh cool03:06
lcukthe class im trying to build at the moment is the cell class.  it is the tile which every UI element sits upon.  in the released liqbase this class had a feature limitation, its what im trying to fix at the moment.03:07
lcuki keep collecting pieces of real life apps and programs and know the libliqbase backend now handles pretty much everything i need03:07
wazdYou can open fullscreen it on your tablet and pretend you're having Fremantle wanabe : )))03:08
lcuki have full color ttf fonts, loadable images, a fully dynamic sketch class and the cell will bind them all together03:08
lcukwazd, liqbase and all its boxes can be styled and tasked to any purpose03:09
wazdthe only thing I can task is my imagination(03:10
lcukheh, my first task and confirmation that it has worked is to bring liqsketch to life in the new framework03:10
lcuk(with the improvements ive been rolling around head for the last 2 months)03:11
GeneralAntilleswazd, wouldn't it be funny if Nokia's UI turned out a lot like your mockups? :D03:11
lcukliqreader is similar, but that will be its own application03:11
* GeneralAntilles waits impatiently for May.03:11
lcukGeneralAntilles, :) wouldnt it be even funnier if the maemo turned out a lot like wazds :)03:11
lcukthe community maemo distro03:11
* lcuk waits impatiently for Mer. ;)03:12
GeneralAntillesHrm, I should finish up EIPI's interview.03:12
wazdI think it would be super-awesome)03:13
wazdIt's like to be shown on the TV at 2am :)03:14
wazdNoone knows, but you're very proud of yourself)03:14
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wazdI've already pointed to the new Palm OS feature - flick up the app to close :)03:15
lcukyou dont flick on the screen though03:16
wazdThat was really funny to see :)03:16
lcukoh yeah, sorry03:16
lcukits the other thing you dont isnt it03:16
lcukhave you seen the full presentation?03:16
wazdI like the concept of the cards, pretty intuitive03:17
lcukcertain things stood out to me, especially "when searching for contacts it checks local first, then your exchange server"03:17
lcukwell its not that new a concept though03:17
lcukits just a ui ontop of it, its just widget rendering03:18
johnxlcuk, yeah, we'll get that with tracker03:18
wazdyep, but I think my "quick search" (1st in series) is even faster than that03:18
johnxwe could just compile up deskbar now but it might be too heavy for the omap2 ...03:19
wazdyou'll see all all the stuff about what you're typing03:19
wazdno matter what it is03:19
wazdThe key is not to think "we should beat iPhone" when making hardware or software03:20
wazdIn fact they haven't made so much new for those zillion years they were planning this device03:20
johnxI was happy to see the palm-style menus remain intact largely03:21
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johnxI'm just surprised they finally managed to show something in the 11th hour03:21
wazdThe best thing I liked in the shown UI is quicklaunch and cards03:21
wazdquichlaunch was pretty nice, true)03:22
lcukjohnx :) and it was an impressive show03:22
johnxusing that touchscreen area that's not part of the LCD is a nice touch03:22
lcukheh, didnt like the weading method03:23
lcukhaving to do a swipe to read a bit more03:23
wazdWell, that's not their invention in fact03:23
lcukthe web browser itself looked shite on 320*480 or whatever it was03:23
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wazdHTC Touch used that already03:23
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johnxof course not, but they utilize it well :)03:23
johnxzaurus had it too, but it went to waste without gestures03:23
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johnxand anyways, palm had it first, a long time ago :)03:24
johnxit was the grafiti area :)03:24
wazdPalm had everything long time ago)03:24
johnxthen they coasted for 7 or so years03:24
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johnxso funny that they bought their whole treo line from another company and now they're phasing out their PDAs03:25
wazdTo bad that graffiti is gone for now03:25
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johnxyeah, but it messed with my mind. totally ruined my hand writing for a while03:25
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wazdAnd no backward compatibility thanks to Access :)03:25
johnxah, and no way to run garnet vm unless they port it to javascript. muahaha03:26
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wazdWell, I gotta go to have some sleep now. 4AM in Moscow :)03:27
johnxyeah, get some sleep :)03:27
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wazdI shoud wake at 7 actually but thats ok)03:28
johnxI'll stay up and crack the whip on lcuk to implement your UI ideas :)03:28
lcuknot me, im off to bed myself03:28
wazdSee you all guys :)03:28
lcukgnite wazd03:29
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lcukme too, gnite chaps03:29
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johnx'night wazd lcuk :)03:29
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b-mang'night lcuk!03:29
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b-manTheFatal: LOL!!!! :D04:13
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TheFatalcan any1 tell me if "hacker edition" can be installed on n810 ??04:23
TheFatalse puede poner hacker edition al n810 ?04:24
johnxno. only for the 770.04:24
TheFatalwhat is xulrunner ?04:36
johnxpart of the web browser04:36
TheFatalso i should not delete them04:37
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* b-man starts thinking of ways to tweek Ubuntu Jaunty04:47
b-manjohnx: do you think the keyboard problem might be related to the kernel?04:48
johnxcould you describe the "keyboard problem" again?04:48
johnxdo any of the buttons on the n800 work?04:49
johnxs/work/work in X11/04:49
infobotjohnx meant: do any of the buttons on the n800 work in X11?04:49
b-manyes, the power buttun :)04:49
b-manbut i ment the virtual keyboard04:49
johnxup and down on the d-pad don't work?04:49
b-manthe virtual keyboard keeps crashing my desktop04:50
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johnxyup. that and the d-pad not working are related. i had the same problem in debian at first04:50
johnxit was related to a problem with HAL in debian, but it works fine for us in mer...04:51
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johnxI'll test it just to be sure04:51
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b-manjohnx: eny luck?04:54
johnxhad to boot into mer. installing now04:54
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b-manhow about now? :)04:58
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johnxb-man, every time you ask me. I just wait another 5 minutes before telling you the answer :)05:03
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johnxworks fine05:04
b-mandoes mer have it's own version of hal?05:05
b-man(dum question)05:05
johnxI'd check...but looks like the mer repository is down :/05:06
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* b-man trys to look05:07
johnxnope, it's from ubuntu05:07
b-manWhat else do you think could be causing the problem?05:08
johnxif I was trying to track down this same problem, I'd be looking at hal and dbus interactions...but first I'd figure out how to get a shell on it while it was booted into ubuntu05:09
TheFatali have another question... this video works to format n810 ??
b-manjohnx: how could i do that without a keyboard?05:12
johnxb-man, telnet over usb is the easiest way. you need to be running linux on your desktop though I think05:12
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b-mani don't have a linux desktop atm unfortunately :(05:13
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b-mani'm still waiting on my Dell Studio 15 :)05:14
johnxb-man, does your desktop have a CD drive?05:14
b-manyes, but it's an old clunky win98 pc05:14
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sistosorry if this is a stupid question but is the n810 good for spreadsheets and text processing?05:15
sistoi'm planning on buying one and that's one of the things i want to do with it05:16
johnxsisto, I would say, usable, but not that great. if that's what you're buying it for you might want to look at something else05:17
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b-manwith no internet05:19
b-man(i use my tablet all the time for computing for the time being)05:19
sistojohnx: thanks, what do you think would be a be a better option?05:19
sistoi saw that gnumeric and abiword are ported to maemo05:19
johnxsisto, abiword and gnumeric are available, but at least abiword isn't 100% stable yet05:20
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sistojohnx: i guess i could make due with just a text editor. that is what i had in mind really05:20
b-manjohnx: do you think i might be able to fix this from maemo?05:20
johnxsisto, ah, well then yes. it's pretty nice for that. There are a couple text editors and notes apps05:21
sistojohnx: nice thanks05:21
TheFatalbef0rd: tnks05:23
johnxas for better devices for word processing/spreadsheets: maybe an eeePC or similar?05:23
sistoare there any other devices besides nokia tablets (770, n800 and n810) ????05:23
* b-man thinks about using his parents pc to fix the keyboard problem ;)05:23
sisto(with maemo)05:23
TrueJournalssisto: Not with maemo...05:23
johnxb-man, what you need to do is be able to test things as you go. for that you need a shell05:24
sistoTrueJournals: are there other similar devices out there?05:24
sistoi mean without maemo05:24
johnxsisto, in a pocketable form factor? not really05:25
sistothe only thing that is similar that i can think of is the htc g105:25
johnxis linux one of your requirements?05:25
TrueJournalsBut... that's a phone ;-)05:25
sistojohnx: not really.. linux compatibility yes05:26
TrueJournalsMost people would say that the iPod Touch is similar to the tablets... but I don't know about that...05:26
sistoi use a linux desktop05:26
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b-manjohnx: could i use chroot or a local vnc for this?05:26
sistoi guess my only complaint to the ipod touch is that i would have to use itunes... also it lacks a real keyboard05:27
johnxb-man, it doesn't work like need to be running ubuntu, not just messing with the files05:27
sistoi'm not sure about itunes though... do you always have to use it to install apps?05:28
sistoapple is kind of evil in that sense. they fear openness05:28
johnxsisto, yeah, you can't install anything apple doesn't approve of05:28
* b-man is fusterated about his limited resources :(05:29
johnxsisto, (unless you jailbreak it of course, but that seems like a pain to keep up with)05:29
TrueJournalssisto: Agreed, I wouldn't call the iPod touch very similar to the tablets... just throwing it out there05:29
johnxb-man, get creative. :) your win98 machine will run linux just fine. download an iso, burn on your parents' machine, boot on yours05:30
x29alive that is05:30
b-manok, i'll try that, when i get the chance :)05:31
sistothe other thing i like is the fact that it probably fits in a pocket.05:31
sistoi was also thinking about an eee pc but that's not very pocketable05:31
johnxyup, in terms of an open system with a keyboard, it's pretty much the only game in town05:32
sistoright now i have an I-mate jam. i've had it for 4 years now, so i was thinking of retiring it05:33
sistoit's going to be a sad day05:33
TrueJournalssisto: Perhaps you might want to check out
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sistoTrueJournals: thanks! i do like the Nokia e71 also, but it's very expensive.05:34
sistoand the uses are very different also05:35
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johnxe63 looks somewhat interesting, but I have no love for symbian05:35
x29aplus no linux05:35
b-manjohnx: random question; does the Ubuntu iso come with the installer? (meaning it will do most of the dirty work for me?) :)05:36
johnxb-man, yeah, it's a live cd and installer. you can boot it off the cd, play around with it and install if you want05:36
BrentDCOMAP3 should be sweet.05:36
johnxb-man, how much RAM do you have?05:36
b-mansomeware between 512mb and 1-2gb - i'll check, hold on..05:37
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siston810 with 3g would be the perfect device05:38
johnxsisto, that's nokia's next tablet :) sometime later this year05:38
sistojohnx: nice :)05:39
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BrentDCYou may want to eek out that I-Mate for a little longer05:39
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b-manjphnx: 128mb of ram - about the same as my tablet :p05:41
b-manedit: johnx - sorry05:41
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johnxeep. might want something other than ubuntu...05:42
johnxmaybe xubuntu05:42
sistoBrentDC: eek out?05:44
sistoBrentDC: sorry my english is terrible :)05:45
* b-man thinks about swaping ram from a unused computer gathering dust in a corner >:)05:45
johnxsisto, he means "make it work for another couple months"05:46
BrentDCYes, exactly05:47
johnxb-man, a very good idea, but xubuntu is ok with 128MB of RAM, and would be fine for troubleshooting your tablet. You might even like it better than win98 :)05:47
BrentDCSorry, your english is pretty much perfect btw (except for my horrible slang)05:48
b-mani hate win98 :p05:48
sistoit's a mixed feeling, i want to get something better, but i also developed some sort of attachment to my old i-mate :)05:48
b-mangood ridence05:48
johnxsisto, keep both :)05:48
TheFatalsorry, but u guys try to put xubuntu to n810 ?05:48
johnxTheFatal, no. b-man's old desktop computer :)05:49
TheFatalaaaa =P okok05:49
TheFatalddr 1/205:49
* b-man does some frankinstine work on his computer >:)05:49
johnxb-man, loot the bodies (of other old computers)!05:50
BrentDCbut this is all to get Ubuntu working on the tablets, right? lol05:50
sistois ubuntu compiled for arm?05:50
sistodebian is for sure05:51
johnxsisto, yes:
TheFatali want archon for n810 :(05:52
TheFatali need it :P05:52
sistothis one?
TheFatalxD no !05:53
TheFatalthe game05:53
johnxthe C64 game?05:53
sistothis one?
sistooh ok05:54
TheFatalyes !05:54
sistothat one05:54
sistobut you can!05:54
TheFatali have no idea how :S05:54
sistoaren't there c64 emulators for maemo available already?05:54
TheFatal:DDDD a lots of thnks :P05:55
* TheFatal go sleep05:57
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TheFatalsee u later05:57
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sistodoes the n810 support 16 gb sdhc?06:13
sisto(micro sdhc)06:13
b-mani'm back06:14
johnxsisto, yes. any micro-sdhc card will work06:16
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sistojohnx: ok thanks06:16
sistojohnx: what do you use it for usually?06:16
fireunFWIW: seatbelt really helped with the stability of my 770 running 2008HE, I will be putting it on my other 770 as well.06:17
johnxwell first off, I have an n800, so no GPS or hardware keyboard. I use it for notes, light web surfing, weather, music06:17
johnxsometimes I use it for video if I'll be away from home/my desktop for more than a couple days...06:17
johnxah, and ebooks! it's so great for reading06:18
sistojohnx: nice... the ebooks idea crossed my mind, but i didn't think it would be good, but since you tried it already i guess it is :)06:20
johnxthe one problem is finding un-DRMed ebooks06:20
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johnxbut other than that it's a really nice screen for reading on, just have to adjust the font size to something that works for you06:21
sisto -> "seatbelt prevents crashes"06:22
* b-man starts randomly ripping out wires from his computer06:24
b-manhehe, just kidding :D06:24
b-mani'm not that crazy06:25
fireunsisto: supposedly it does something with the way memory is allocated?06:25
fireunsisto: all I know is that the browser on my 770/2008HE doesnt cause it to reboot when I try to connect to the uni wifi06:25
sistofireun: that's good. is that specific to the 770?06:26
fireunI couldnt say06:26
fireunsince I own 2 770s, I havnt been able to justify a 800/81006:27
fireunas much as I would like one.06:27
johnxsisto, yeah. the n8x0 is a lot more stable. partially from having more memory I'm sure06:27
fireunand for the money, I might as well just get an EEEPC06:27
fireunand run *real* linux (;06:28
johnx"real" linux on a 4" touchscreen is no fun :P06:29
sistofireun: i like the eee 90106:29
GeneralAntillesjohnx, you have a link to Meiz's Mer gallery handy?06:29
johnxGeneralAntilles, one sec ...06:30
fireun"real" linux is something I can tweak and upgrade06:30
fireunnokia's releases are, more "canned"06:30
johnxto be fair, they got better with the n8x006:31
johnxand I'm just running ubuntu anyways :)06:31
fireunand I doubt my 770 will ever run a version of maemo past 2008HE06:31
johnxprobably not, but that's starting to seem like a memory limitation :/06:31
fireunI've got a compaq aero that still pisses me off every time I think about how microsoft screwed me out of ever using it past the year or two it used that OS06:32
fireunits got a nice screen.06:32
fireunif it ran linux, I'd just slap vnc on it, and call it done.06:32
GeneralAntillesThe 770 is so far behind the OMAP2 tablets it's not funny.06:33
sistojohnx: can you watch youtube videos smoothly?06:33
fireunGeneralAntilles: but its not that old!06:33
ShadowJKhm, that seatbelt thing changes swappiness to 100, overcommit_memory to 2, overcommit_ratio to 4006:33
GeneralAntillesfireun, but it is.06:33
johnxsisto, not in the browser. flash is so slow it's not really usable for video...but there is a really nice youtube viewer (2 actually)06:33
GeneralAntillesThe OMAP1 was nearing its last days when the 770 came out.06:33
fireunShadowJK: what does that mean?06:33
sistojohnx: that's good news06:33
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GeneralAntillesfireun, the mobile and embedded space doesn't move like the PC space.06:34
GeneralAntillesYour performance margins are razor thin and each generation is lightyears beyond the previous one.06:34
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fireunGeneralAntilles: I used to be an embedded developer, dont have to tell me.06:34
ShadowJKfireun, it will use swap more agressively, and it's more likely to kill programs before the tablet becomes so slow that it gets rebooted by the watchdog06:34
johnxit's like the earlier years of desktop PCs right now :)06:34
fireunShadowJK: does that mean it will cause flash writes to increase in frequency?06:35
johnxthe other thing of course is that all those libs from desktop linux are pretty memory hungry06:35
GeneralAntillesfireun, then you'll certainly understand why Nokia dropping support isn't the same thing as Ubuntu or others dropping support.06:35
ShadowJKfireun, yes06:35
fireunjohnx: true.06:35
ShadowJKswap is on SD card anyway, so it wont brick the device if it wears out...06:36
fireunGeneralAntilles: we always rolled back fixes to old hardware roms06:36
fireunGeneralAntilles: it was just good business06:36
sistojohnx: do you use mytube?06:36
fireunShadowJK: ah, thats what I wanted to know06:36
johnxsisto, I use the viewer inside canola206:37
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sistodoes anyone here like to listen to podcasts?06:37
fireunthats so 200206:38
ShadowJKDoes HE still fit in the internal flash of 770 or is it on the SD card?06:38
x29ajohnx: is there a way to get canola out of fs-mode?06:38
fireunshadowjk: internal06:38
johnxx29a, not that I know of. why would you want that?06:39
* b-man decided to use a huge swap partition on his hdd to keep things sane for ubuntu installer ;)06:39
x29ajohnx: to check my mails real quick or see what my backgroupapps are doing06:39
johnxx29a, hit the "home" or "swap" key06:40
x29aill try that next time, thank you06:40
johnxfireun, you should try linux on the aero. :) saw mention of it in some mailing list from 200406:42
fireunI think that was the other aero06:43
fireunthe contura06:43
x29acompaq aero?06:43
johnxthe aero 1550 with a NEC VR?06:43
johnxs/VR/VR MIPS06:43
johnxI'm staring at a defconfig for it right now :)06:44
fireunI think I had the 210006:44
fireunbut yeah, the NEC VR sounds right06:44
johnxalso in the config file :)06:44
fireunthere was a linuxCE project, not quite the same thing06:44
johnxdon't know what you'll be able to do with it though, looks like 2.4.0-test8 was about the end of the line for patches :/06:45
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fireunjohnx: right, its just in the collection with the newton and palmpilot06:46
fireuncant do anything with them either06:46
johnxsad, huh?06:46
fireunand the newton external keyboard I have is nice to the touch too06:46
johnxI feel the same about my zaurus 5500, but it's almost kinda supported06:46
fireunheh, but is it useful?06:47
johnxjust need a new battery and another wlan card for it06:47
johnxwell, it's not as useful as my newer zaurus and nowhere near an n80006:47
fireunI wouldnt mind the aero sitting on my desktop and slideshowing pictures, or as an alarmclock or something06:47
johnxI used to use it for IM from the couch06:47
x29ai call a Compaq Aero 2160 my own!06:47
fireunyeah, wifi is a blessing.06:47
johnxnot just that: wifi that doesn't drain the battery in an hour06:48
x29ai have a collie as well06:48
fireunI swear I can feel heat from my 770 when I'm streaming music tho06:48
x29acmon, mention more kewl devices!06:48
fireunI had a jornada I used as a glorified typewriter, but its screen got squished06:48 c1000 really heats up when copying files with sftp over wlan06:48
x29ajornada 568!06:49
x29abricked mine while doing some jtag06:49
johnxnow the c1000 is a terribly useful CLI machine. still use it for just that06:49
x29aits got a harddrive, right?06:49
johnxthat was the c3x0006:49
fireunI think I had the jornada with the keyboard and CF slot06:50
johnxbut the SD slot supports SDHC so it doesn't matter that much06:50
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x29afireun: jornada 680?06:50
johnxooh! updates for the collie!06:50
x29ajohnx: openzaurus -> angström06:50
x29abut update for opie!06:51
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johnxthat x11-image is brand shiney new :)06:51
fireunx29a: nope, it had the formfactor of one of those 7" eee06:51
johnxprobably time to get debian on it06:51
fireunb4 sized06:52
fireunI was really sad when I found it in a box with a busted screen06:52
fireunit was throw in a bag portable if all I needed to do was write a paper06:53
fireunkept me from browsing the web while I did it too06:53
fireunor playing games06:53 poor cf wireless card ishot to the touch06:56
fireunI've also got too many linksys wrts06:57
fireunnot much headroom for linux there!06:57
fireunand yet...06:57
johnxruns nice though06:58
johnxsooo much nicer to work with than a low-end cisco router too :)06:58
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* johnx boots his collie06:58
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sistodoes maemo use gnome or does it replace it?06:58
sistoi'm not quite sure what maemo is :)06:59
johnxsisto, it uses parts of gnome, like gtk, but it's a different desktop environment06:59
sistobut it uses X11 right?06:59
b-manyes, xomap06:59
johnxand many gnome apps can be run without source code changes (or made to work nicely with minimal source code changes)07:00
sistodoes it have virtual consoles like ubuntu has? the ones you can activate with Ctrl+Alt+F1, F2, etc07:01
johnxnot enabled by default, but there's an x terminal of course07:01
johnxand you can get root access easily07:01
sistobut can I drop to a terminal and kill the X server?07:01
sistoand use it with the console only?07:02
johnxyou can kill the x server, but the vt isn't enabled in Nokia's distro07:02
johnxso you'll be locked out until you reboot :)07:02
x29asisto: you can login via ssh tho07:02
sistoso you would have to connect through ssh to use it07:02
johnxsisto, yes, or you could just use an xterm07:03
johnxor boot a different distro07:03
johnxor hack up Nokia's distro to enable a console framebuffer and run a getty07:03
x29adoes 'hacking up' equal editing the initscripts?07:04
johnxand installing some kernel modules07:04
johnxor a new kernel07:04
johnxand compiling a getty :)07:04
ShadowJK... and figuring out how to input all the symbols you need when you no longer have the maemo things there to help you :)07:05
sistosounds challenging07:05
johnxit is, so just use the xterm :)07:05
ShadowJKfullscreen xterm (on maemo fullscreen means no window decorations) is easiest :)07:06
sistoyes i was just wondering... i would have no real use for it though07:06
sistothe only benefit would be having more free memory07:07
johnxthere is that...but you lose a lot of functionality in the process07:07
johnxand if you're planning to run memory hungry apps from the command line you might be best suited by another distro, like angstrom or debian or ubuntu07:08
b-manjohnx: do you think it's possible to compile a stock ubuntu kernel for the tablets?07:08
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johnxb-man, compile: yes. boot: no07:09
johnxwhy are you interested in that?07:09
b-manjust curious...07:10
johnxthe "stock" ubuntu kernel is just as heavily patched for x86 machines as the "stock" Nokia kernel is patched for our machines07:10
johnxa vanilla kernel is more possible, and of course people are working on a linux-omap kernel07:11
johnxbut really, a kernel is a kernel :)07:11
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sistohas anyone here successfully installed another distro on their tablet?07:12
b-manyes, me :D07:12
johnxdebian, ubuntu, android and angstrom07:12
b-manUbuntu jaunty, Debian, Android...07:12
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johnxubuntu and android are in active development. debian is pretty well usable, but suffers poor battery life for complicated reasons :)07:13
sistodid you use specific ports made for nokia?07:13
johnxyes :/07:13
johnxNokia's done some stuff in a non-standard way07:13
`Macewow skype lite is a fucking abortion07:13
`Macewhomever came up with it should be lined up with the iskoot people and shot07:14
johnx`Mace, don't hold back. tell us how you really feel :)07:14
`Maceit uses your cell minutes to forward a call07:14
`Maceskype sells itself as "voip" and this is NOT voip07:14
`MaceGeneralAntilles - they are making it for symbian phones also07:15
`Maceskype n800 ftw haha07:15
ShadowJKfring on symbian07:15
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, haha07:15
`MaceShadowJK - yeah... fring and nimbuzz work well on the n9507:15
`Maceit's just a shame ;) they had the oppurtunity to open up a huge base for skype07:16
`Maceand wound up producing a program that is worse than iskoot07:16
johnxI've gone with gizmo on the n800 anyways. if skype can't be bothered to improve sound quality or implement video07:16
LinuxCodeyeh video!07:16
`Macevideo on an n800 sucks anyways ;)07:16
LinuxCodeI want video!#07:16
* b-man yawns07:16
b-mangood night everyone, i'm going to bed.07:16
johnx`Mace, eh, it's good enough for a video call07:17
johnx'night b-man07:17
`Macei suppose07:17
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LinuxCodejohnx, amsn could do it quite well07:17
`Macei don't think gizmo has unlimited plans tho07:17
LinuxCodedid ya give that a whirl john ?07:17
`Macei know i was looking at it a while ago and they had no unlimited local plans07:17
LinuxCodeit even turned the led red07:17
LinuxCodeto indicate the cam in use07:17
ShadowJKamusingly regular VoIP is cheaper for me than skype07:18
LinuxCodeShadowJK, that is to be expected07:18
`MaceShadowJK - skype is great for the house07:18
LinuxCodemore competition07:18
`Maceand on my n95 it was good using fring07:18
johnxyeah, called my parents and sister on my sister's macbook. there was some echo on their side as the macbook's mic picked up my voice and helpfully sent it back with a 2 second delay07:18
`Macebut on my g1 it's trash ;)07:18
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`Macen800 was awesome to use it also.. too bad there's no cell modem in the n80007:18
`Macei'd have ditched my phone altogether.. suppose an n900 will do the trick from what i've heard07:19
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LinuxCodeMace, I hope so too07:19
LinuxCodeI put off buying a new mobile phone07:19
fireuniPhone, mmm07:19
`Maceit's supposed to have a utms modem07:19
LinuxCodeuntil that is out07:19
`Maceso cross the fingers :)07:19
ShadowJKwell if it has hsdpa you can run voip/skype over it all the time everywehere07:19
`Macei know07:19
LinuxCodefireun, I wouldnt want an iphone07:19
`Maceyou can just use a bt earpiece ;)07:19
`Maceit would make for a great "phone"07:19
LinuxCodeevolution just works with gpesyncd07:20
fireunLinuxCode: lots of apps for the iPhone07:20
`Maceyou would just have to pay for a pda plan from your cell carrier07:20
LinuxCodefireun, thats besides the point07:20
fireunthats all I'm talking about07:20
`Maceand get a "pay by the minute" voice plan that you'll never use07:20
LinuxCodefireun, silly appz anyway..mainly07:20
fireunits an awkward shape07:20
LinuxCodea lighter, a beer glass ?!?!?07:20
`Maceiphone has fring too :)07:20
* johnx has no interest in non-hackable devices07:20
LinuxCodejohnx, that too07:21
`Macei didn't want to pay for an unlocked iphone and i really do like android a lot07:21
`Maceand i sure in hell didn't want att anymore07:21
LinuxCodethe only thing I like about the iphone is that the Woz hacks his device himself07:21
LinuxCodeto use all those external appz07:21
LinuxCodeand proudly says so too07:21
fireunand people are making money making iPhone apps07:21
`Macehopefully they fix a lot of things that are wrong with it.. like the bluetooth stack in android only supports an earpiece07:21
fireunthats a good thing too.07:21
johnxI make it a point to not give money to companies that are out to actively restrict what I do with their products07:21
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fireunbut I agree, I prefer open07:21
`Maceno hid, h2dp, dun07:22
`Macewtf? :)07:22
`Macenot even storage profile07:22
LinuxCodefireun, if we could have more maintainers... we could have the entire foss available on maemo07:22
`Maceandroid update is due out this month though so lets see what it does :) until then i can just wait on getting an n900 when it comes out07:22
`Macehope the hardware doesn't suck07:22
fireunLinuxCode: its the standard curse, cant pay to have the apps if you want to stay open, if you close up a bit you have restrictions and too much closure07:23
LinuxCodeMaceN800, Id like a second sd card slot07:23
johnx`Mace, on the n900? non-suckiness is pretty much confirmed :)07:23
LinuxCodefireun, I want what I have on my linux desktop07:23
LinuxCodeI like the keybaord07:24
LinuxCodeI hate iphones input rubbish07:24
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LinuxCodeits cumbersome and slow07:24
`Macejohnx - ;) haha07:24
fireunLinuxCode: I do and I dont, I like uniform interfaces on small devices where screen realestate is precious and "well behaving" apps are desired most07:24
`Maceso that's a good start07:24
johnxfireun++ :)07:24
johnxdesktop apps on 4" touchscreens are not worth it07:25
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LinuxCodejohnx, agreed07:25
LinuxCodebut if there are different interfaces integrations for it ...07:26
johnxI think Maemo is a good start for a non-fragmented interface for mobile linux07:26
LinuxCodewith hildon I always thought that was the goal07:26
`Macejohnx - they aren't too bad when they are scaled down07:26
`Macei thought quickoffice was very helpful07:26
LinuxCodeobviously you wouldnt run openoffice on your n81007:26
`MaceLinuxCode - i did07:27
`Maceit runs ;)07:27
LinuxCodemace lol07:27
`Maceprints too07:27
LinuxCodedid it run well ?07:27
`Macei guess... kinda slow.. but got the job done and was able to print with cups07:27
`Maceit was in pb's kde release for maemo07:28
`Macecups was seperate install tho when i did it07:28
LinuxCodei see07:28
`Macestarting saturday i'm going to work on taking a look at mer and testing it out07:28
`Maceand android for n8x007:28
johnxI mean, I can see using something like that in a pinch, but not as a daily thing07:28
`Macealthough i doubt it will work well without a qwerty07:28
`Macejohnx - yeah.. quickoffice was nice .. especially with the su8w07:29
`Macei think i type faster on my su8w than a normal keyboard because the keys are so close :)07:29
* johnx almost never uses his n800 while sitting07:29
`Maceheh.. i had to type a whole term paper hung over on my n95 in quickoffice with my su8w and got a b on it.. so i can't complain :)07:29
`Macethey are working on androffice for android which uses openoffice standards.. but i do hope that the quickoffice devs come out with something instead07:30
`Macei wouldn't mind paying for quickoffice07:30
ShadowJKis there quickoffice for maemo?07:31
* ShadowJK wonders what the thing included with E70 is called07:31
`Maceprobably quick office ;)07:31
LinuxCodeI hope they fix the gps07:31
`Macethey have it for symbian.. it usually comes with a trial version but you have to pay for the ral one07:31
LinuxCodeits getting pathetic07:31
`Macei have to buy a new housing for my n9507:31
LinuxCodeme and my brother were driving somehwere07:31
GeneralAntillesjohnx, out of interest, what phone are you using these days?07:31
`Macegot lost? :)07:31
fireunI wouldnt mind paying for the comprehensive quickoffice app, a basic openoffice standards based editor should be free07:31
LinuxCodeand only by the time we almost got therre it started to pick up07:32
`Macefireun - quickoffice saves in ms office formats07:32
`Macewhich i'm guessing is the reason it costs $5007:32
fireunas an option or by default?07:32
`Macenot sure to tell you the truth07:32
`Macei always just saved it in office 07 format when i used it07:33
`Macesupports docx etc07:33
`Macei need to buy a new housing for my n9507:33
fireunfollowing microsoft in any activity will always be a mistake07:33
`Macehave scratches on mine07:33
johnxGeneralAntilles, Sony Ericsson W51S (an exclusive for KDDI Au)07:33
`Macefireun - maybe.. but it is still the corperate standard office suite for about 80% of businesses07:34
`Mace(that haven't gone bankrupt yet)07:34
GeneralAntillesLooks purty.07:34
`Macealways better to be safe than sorry ;)07:34
johnxGeneralAntilles, and it works, but the interface is ... schizophrenic07:34
fireunautocad is also a standard, but you take one look at solidworks and you want to toss autocad07:34
LinuxCodejohn, does that sync with wammu ?07:34
GeneralAntillesMy contract's up in Feb and I need to find something subsidized to buy.07:35
`Macefireun - yeah.. but if you do and the people you send your draft to can't open it.. then it was all just a waste of time07:35
GeneralAntillesI wish I could pick up a 5800 with contract for under $20007:35
fireunwhich is why you can save to DWG (autocad)07:35
GeneralAntillesNot much exciting in AT&T's lineup at the moment. :\07:35
LinuxCodeor gammu..or have you even tried ?07:35
fireunbut its not the default, because you compromise detail07:35
`Macewell.. unless you own your company.. chances are you will NEED to use ms formats for docs07:35
johnxLinuxCode, never saw that app before. I honestly don't know, but I somewhat doubt it07:35
LinuxCodejohnx, k07:36
`Macebut if you do own your own company you can build a good infrastruction on cheap software haha07:36
LinuxCodeI want something that I could sync to evolution07:36
fireunmace: I'm just saying it should be more about the education, than the blind standards keeping07:36
sistoi'm off to sleep07:36
GeneralAntillesI actually like the look of the Samsung Eternity a bit. . . .07:36
sistosee you07:36
`Macefireun - i agree07:36
`Macebut unfortunately it is not ;)07:36
johnx'night sisto07:36
fireunand I wont accept that as the final answer, the only way to move forward...07:37
`Macefireun - i'll accept "move forward" if obama's presidency is a success07:37
sistonight johnx07:37
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`Macechances are though.. that in 4 years the US will be in the same sad state of affairs ;)07:37
`Macesimply because in the end moving forward happens in baby steps and not in giant leaps07:38
doc|hometwo official 'change' postings today: and
fireunmace: how can an educated move be a complete failure? innaction is the only failure mode07:38
doc|homefireun: not if the action is worse than inaction07:38
LinuxCodeis this #politics ?07:38
LinuxCodeI dont live in the US07:38
fireunis this #life?07:38
doc|homeLinuxCode: me neither07:38
LinuxCodethat was a good one07:38
fireun"well geet outa mah country then"07:39
x29athere has been a study that goalies jump during 11m shooting alltough the probability tells them to stay in the middle, just because they feel urged to do something07:39
`Maceanyways... :) i would still hope that there is a broader quickoffice distribution07:39
`Macefor maemo.. android... symbian.. etc... quickoffice is a very good portable office suite07:39
LinuxCodefireun, country is better anyway07:39
fireun"even if it is, it stinks"07:40
`Maceobama is asking for a stimulus package and tax breaks :) so the govt spends more money yet takes in less07:40
fireuncant be worried about a little debt07:40
`Macecan the fed govt declare bankruptsy ?07:40
fireunwhy not?07:40
`Macei don't know.. i just always wondered if they could07:40
fireunsnot like china's gonna repo anything07:40
LinuxCodeany country can go bankrupt07:41
fireunI know I've seen city govmnts declare bankruptcy07:41
`Macei mean how would that work though?07:41
LinuxCodeMace, nothing works ...07:41
fireunjust like any major corp07:41
LinuxCodethats the key07:41
`Macei have also.. but i've never seen a fed govt do it07:41
`Macewho do they report it to? :)07:41
`Macedoes the president walk into congress one day and ask them for a foreclosure sign for the white house?07:42
LinuxCodeMace, there isnt a bailiff for countries07:42
LinuxCodegets written off...07:42
LinuxCodeor that07:42
`Macesenators! we are going to have to sell these leather thrones you are all sitting in to break even07:42
johnxnew management, gets controlled by the creditors, right?07:42
`Maceand we're going to have 1 senator for each state from now on07:42
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* `Mace pictures the US Fed govt "cutting back"07:43
fireuneh, google for goverment07:43
`Macei figure the first thing to go would be welfare and social security :)07:43
* `Mace crosses his fingers07:43
`Macethey're old and poor anyways.. better to let them die off and end the burden on the rest of the country07:44
LinuxCodewhat is wrong with a social security system ?07:44
`Maceask me that again in about 5 years when all the baby boomers start to collect :)07:44
GeneralAntillesLinuxCode, everything.07:44
`Maceand you're 105 and finally collecting "what you put in"07:45
GeneralAntillesIt's not even remotely sustainable.07:45
LinuxCodeworks here07:45
fireunpay taxes 4 days out of the week, then send the taxes from your 5th day of work to a special project of your choise07:45
`Maceit sure isn't07:45
doc|homeLinuxCode: at what tax rate?07:45
LinuxCodedoc|home, not 7%07:45
GeneralAntillesLinuxCode, "works"07:45
`Maceare you in canada?07:45
LinuxCodebut then the money you gys pay for medical insurance07:45
LinuxCodeis pathetic07:45
doc|homeLinuxCode: think about it. If you didn't have to pay taxes don't you think you'd be better off with the savings?07:45
`MaceLinuxCode - which country are you in?07:45
LinuxCodeprivate healthcare is an open pit where money falls into07:45
LinuxCodeMace UK07:45
LinuxCodeadn I used to live In Germany07:46
doc|homeLinuxCode: they have one of the best systems in the world. The NHS is a mess.07:46
LinuxCodedoc|home, in Germany they privatised07:46
doc|homeLinuxCode: completely?07:46
LinuxCodeand the costs went up and up and up07:46
LinuxCodeuntil the German gov said..thats it...07:46
LinuxCodetaking the piss...and rained spending in07:46
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doc|homeLinuxCode: and when they said "that's it" what they did was reduce the incentives for competition to come in07:47
LinuxCodedoc|home, there is no nhs in germany...they have Krankenkassen07:47
LinuxCodedoc|home, they said to companies to reduce costs or die07:47
doc|homeLinuxCode: if you want effective anything you need to be prepared to pay :/07:47
LinuxCodedoc|home, wrong07:47
LinuxCodeprivate compnaies need to make more profit every year07:47
doc|homeLinuxCode: eventually competition will come in and the price will go down07:47
LinuxCodeyeh right07:47
doc|homeLinuxCode: heaven forbid!07:47
johnxdoc|home, be careful of the inverse though. just because you're paying more doesn't mean you're getting more07:47
`MaceLinuxCode - social security doesn't work here because our govt always uses it as a stop gap to other things in the budget07:48
doc|homeLinuxCode: so do computer companies07:48
LinuxCodehow much is your lecy ?07:48
`Maceand never replenishes the money07:48
fireunwhat is this #economics?07:48
LinuxCodeand how much are you paying for petrol atm ?07:48
doc|homeyet computer prices have dropped and dropped07:48
`Maceso in 5 years it will be a total gaggle07:48
GeneralAntillesGovernment is always less efficient than private companies.07:48
LinuxCodeconsidering its 42 usd per barrel07:48
`MaceLinuxCode - ~$2/gallon at the pump07:48
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, true07:48
doc|homeI don't drive so have no idea07:48
LinuxCodebut they have better bargaining power07:48
doc|homeLinuxCode: but how much of the fuel price is taxes?07:48
GeneralAntilles$1.54 last time I filled up.07:48
fireunGeneralAntilles: private companies have their shareholders needs above those of its clients07:49
johnxGeneralAntilles, then why don't we have privately run fire departments?07:49
LinuxCodedoc|home, and how much pays school fees ?07:49
`Maceit's still $2 here in chicago :)07:49
LinuxCodeif I was in the US I wouldnt have a degree now07:49
fireunGeneralAntilles: I'm not down with that in a goverment07:49
`Macedamn i need to move07:49
LinuxCodeor if I did...I would have 40k in USD debt07:49
fireuneven if WE are supposed to be the share holders, that rarely is the case07:49
doc|homeLinuxCode: in most countries with public education there's no competition in schooling so you end up with bad schools and high prices (to the taxpayer)07:49
GeneralAntillesLinuxCode, scholarships are abundant if you're even a marginally good student.07:50
LinuxCodedoc|home, are you the son of David Cameron ?07:50
`Macedoc|home - i refuse to send my child to public education07:50
doc|homeLinuxCode: no, I read stuff07:50
`Mace:) he is going to a school i have to pay for07:50
doc|home`Mace: good choice07:50
`Macei know it is!07:50
`Macethe public school system is a joke07:50
LinuxCodedoc|home, I can tell you dont pay your own bills07:50
doc|homeLinuxCode: I do, and I have no debt07:50
GeneralAntillesjohnx, 99% of the time. But garbage collection is private around here. :P07:50
`Macelike it's my fault that poor people need to know how to read too07:50
LinuxCodenor do I07:50
`Macewhy ? to make pamplets for their crack sales07:50
LinuxCodewell student loan07:50
doc|homeLinuxCode: I haven't had anyone pay my bills in four years07:50
johnxGeneralAntilles, will you die if your garbage is not collected?07:50
LinuxCodebut technically I could pay that07:50
doc|homeLinuxCode: and even then that was because I was in uni07:51
GeneralAntillesjohnx, besides, fire and police departments aren't there to save your stuff.07:51
fireunok, this is too distracting, and I have homework reading to do.07:51
* fireun is back in school for a degree07:51
GeneralAntillesjohnx, at a certain point, yes. :D07:51
LinuxCodeMace, you cant compare the US to Europe07:51
`Macei work hard to make sure my child can go to a good school.. why should the schools be bogged down simply because everybody must burden the cost of sending poor children to school also?07:51
fireunthere arent jobs for smart people without degrees07:51
LinuxCodeUS has a much bigger drug, gun, crime problem imo07:51
`MaceLinuxCode - our country was founded on revolution ;)07:52
doc|home`Mace: what's more, you're paying twice for education. Once for your child's education, again via taxes which are going to education for others.07:52
`Macecrime is our way of life haha07:52
LinuxCodeyeah from us.... good riddance07:52
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johnxGeneralAntilles, anyway, point being, sometimes a little inefficiency is worth it to have things there at a subsidized cost when you need them. remind me to tell you about my December at some point. :)07:52
`Macedoc|home - yup.. it is a HORRIBLE system07:52
johnxoff into the real world for now07:52
fireunin capitalism, apathy pays07:52
`Macenot to mention the fact that the teachers are the worst in the world07:52
GeneralAntillesjohnx, sometimes, but some people think that's always the right answer.07:52
doc|homeLinuxCode: the US has a drug problem only because drugs are illegal. Make them legal and you reduce the incentive for criminals to be involved. Anyone can do the business.07:52
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, people abusing the system are the problem07:53
doc|homeand I say that as a person who hates drugs07:53
`Macei had about 40 or so teachers while i was attending school.. and i think there were only 2 of them that no shit.. actually cared about their job and what they were doing07:53
LinuxCodedoc|home, that applies to the UK too07:53
LinuxCodemake dope legal07:53
GeneralAntillesLinuxCode, yeah, well, wave your magic wand and make them stop.07:53
johnxGeneralAntilles, of course. there is no black and white.07:53
LinuxCodetax it...07:53
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, hahaha07:53
doc|homeLinuxCode: no, don't tax it.07:53
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* LinuxCode waves his magic wand and nothing happens07:53
`Macewe had liberal arts major teachers .. trying to teach advanced algebra07:53
doc|homeLinuxCode: when the government taxes stuff they have more money to do silly things like bail out banks07:53
doc|homeor spend on arms07:54
`Macethey were HORRIBLE07:54
`Macelike their student loan required them to be public teachers for 2 years or something07:54
LinuxCodedoc|home, I like the idea of having a few more new shiny aircraft carriers07:54
`Macebefore they could go get a real job for the private schools07:54
`Maceand actually care about teaching07:54
doc|homeLinuxCode: why? who's going to invade the UK?07:54
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LinuxCodedoc|home, the US07:54
doc|homeoh come off it07:54
doc|homethey can't even control the lands they've already invaded07:54
doc|homehell, they can't even control the 5 mile patch of land between the airport and the green zone07:55
`Macedoc|home - i don't know about that07:55
`Macemore people die in LA in a day than have died in 6 months in iraq07:55
LinuxCodewell actually they dont anymore anyway07:55
doc|home`Mace: die how?07:55
LinuxCodeIraq controls it now07:55
`Maceoh random acts of violence i suppose for the most part07:56
doc|homeLinuxCode: meh, a change in flag means little07:56
LinuxCodeMace, did you get that from Fox news ?07:56
`Mace:) no.. i just took a wild guess07:56
`Macei was in iraq twice07:56
`Macei think the south side of chicago is worse07:56
doc|home`Mace: that sucks and all, but it's not a direct result of your taxes :/07:56
`Macei mean.. rhamadi was pretty fucked up07:57
`Maceall rubble and ww2 looking while we were patrolling07:57
LinuxCodeMace, US forces ?07:57
`Macewas in the USMC07:57
`Macegot out in july of 0707:57
LinuxCodeMace, and guess who made that rubble07:57
`Macefinshed my 407:57
`Macewe did07:57
`Macewe were blowing shit up left and right.. BUT... they did their fair share of fucking their own city up too07:57
LinuxCodethe problem is with US forces,... that you guys dont train on Nation Building07:58
`Macewe sure don't07:58
GeneralAntillesUgh, nation building.07:58
`Maceespecially USMC07:58
`Macewe just go in and blow shit up and kill everybody and leave07:58
* GeneralAntilles isn't sure why it's any of our business to be "building" nations.07:58
doc|homethey shouldn't be invading nations to have to build them in the first place :/07:58
`Maceand let the army handle the rest haha07:58
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, democracies buy goods07:58
`Macedoc|home - we are just trying to get a base in iraq ;)07:58
LinuxCodedrives economies07:58
`Maceor two07:58
doc|home`Mace: oh I know :(07:58
GeneralAntillesLinuxCode, it's their own business to sort out how they want their country to be run, not ours.07:59
`Maceplus cheaper oil from our newly established puppet govt07:59
LinuxCodeI can assure you in Zimbabwe nobody is buying anything but food atm07:59
doc|homeLinuxCode: no, democracies lead to mob rule :(07:59
`Macewhom we will start selling weapons to in about 4 years07:59
LinuxCodedoc|home, lol07:59
doc|homeand no, I'm not advocating dictatorship :)07:59
`Macedoc|home - i would07:59
GeneralAntillesIt's amazing how every loves to ignore the warnings against entangling foreign involvement.07:59
LinuxCodeyeh..make me dictator of Britain07:59
doc|homeLinuxCode: it's true though :/ look at obama's change, it's going to bankrupt the country07:59
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`Macehistory has shown the greatest nations to ever exist were those ruled by dictatorship that cared for its people07:59
doc|homeI'd much rather next to no government07:59
LinuxCodefirst thing I do is restrict doc|home to 3 hours of inet a day07:59
doc|home`Mace: such things don't exist07:59
`Macesure they do08:00
`Macelook at arabia :)08:00
doc|homeLinuxCode: who says you get to be dictator?08:00
doc|home`Mace: saudi arabia? bwahahaha08:00
LinuxCodedoc|home, I can hope for it ?08:00
`Macesaudis are living large off 3rd world slaves :)08:00
LinuxCodeId ban windows08:00
`Macesaudis don't work08:00
doc|homeLinuxCode: and I can shoot you in the face, Who wins? :)08:00
doc|home`Mace: right, which is why they'll be in trouble once the oil runs out08:00
LinuxCodedoc|home, you are def in the US08:00
doc|homeLinuxCode: nope :)08:00
`Macedoc|home - nope. they'll just use the american debt they bought08:01
LinuxCodeare you going to shoot me with an airgun then ?08:01
`Mace1/3 of the american debt is owned by the saudis :)08:01
`Macei think china has a huge stake in the US debt also08:01
doc|home`Mace: heh, will probably be worthless by then :)08:01
LinuxCodeMace, arab countries are pretty rich08:01
`Macedoc|home - true :-\08:01
doc|home`Mace: china, japan first iirc08:01
LinuxCodevery true08:01
LinuxCodeMace, they had to write off big losses though08:01
LinuxCodeno wonder they dont like democracies08:02
`MaceBUT YEAH.... let's hope that skype turns lite into an actual voip program!08:02
* `Mace grins08:02
LinuxCodewe run companies against walls and they lose money08:02
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LinuxCodeI want video!08:02
`Maceblah screw video08:02
`Macei would rather not video chat with most people i call on the phone anyways08:03
`Macephone conversations to friends and family should last all of but 5 minutes unless it's over something seriously important08:03
`Macehello.. ok... all right.. ok then.. bye08:03
LinuxCodeMace, my brother lives abroad08:04
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wazdMorning all :)09:35
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RST38hIt's been almost 24 hours since the intoxicating and overwhelming scent of maple syrup assaulted New Yorkers' olfactory nerves again. And even though this is the sixth time the smell has struck, it's unclear where the smell is coming from!09:53
RST38hAnd good morning09:54
mavhcthe mapler, an evil supervillian09:55
RST38hBatman to the rescue!09:56
mavhcspiderman surely, it's new york09:57
RST38hMeanwhile in UK: It would seem that the mythical Beast of Exmoor might have savaged its last after a body of an unidentified large animal was found washed up on a north Devon beach... Police raced to the popular surfing beach of Croyde where the carcass of an animal the size of a calf with canine teeth was spotted by a member of the public.10:04
RST38hNotice how old-skool and stylish UK story is: that is the European cultural heritage for you, not some maple syrup! =)10:05
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aquatixmorning all10:28
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MaceN800Load average: 2.68 3.23 2.4011:14
MaceN800shit. my n800 is going to explode11:14
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X-Fadeaquatix: Cold huh? :)11:16
X-FadeOr is isn't it cold there up north? :)11:16
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MaceN800installing kde now11:17
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X-Fade-12 C in the sun here ;)11:17
MaceN800we're getting a foot of snow here11:18
X-FadeOnly 10cm here over the last few days. But that is already a lot for NL ;)11:18
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wazdGoddamn, and after all that they are pissed of bout pirating11:20
wazdSpent 2 hours to download trial from Adobe11:20
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aquatixX-Fade: it's rather cold here11:27
aquatix-6C or something11:27
soul9is it possible to port apps from maemo to anything else?11:27
soul9like skype..11:27
aquatixerm, there's already skype on maemo11:28
* aquatix needs to read correctly11:28
soul9*from* meamo ;-)11:28
Jaffasoul9: "port" usually implies taking the source, making (some) changes and recompiling for a different target. We have no source for Skype.11:29
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soul9well yeah, but skype is in a repository11:29
aquatixif it has the same hardware and software stack, you can `port' it ;)11:29
JaffaHowever, it should be possible to take Skype and run it on any other ARM/Linux system, with Gtk+, X and whatever Hildon libraries it depends on11:29
JaffaHow much effort it'd be, I've no idea. And you're breaking the licensing11:29
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soul9so basically, theoretically it would be possible to run skype on the freerunner, or at least it would be worth it to try..11:30
soul9ok, thanks11:30
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wazdOh, hello Jaffa :)11:32
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wazdGeneral told me to ask you if I can participate in website development11:33
JaffaWhat do you want to do?11:33
X-Fadewazd: Of course you can ;)11:33
X-FadeIn fact, is there a CSS guru out there who wants to help make the current designs compatible on all major browsers?11:34
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wazdWell, I'm very late with my proposals, but I've spent much time with figuring out the best layouts for modern website, so I came up with this.
wazdI know that design is already been approved and thats totaly my fault(11:37
X-Fadewazd: We have a website design meeting next tuesday..11:37
X-Fadewazd: But that is only to refine the current design and layouts for pages that aren't done yet.11:37
wazdOh, thats great! I thought I've missed January meeting11:37
wazdX-Fade: In fact I can code all the stuff myself to show the council some real-life layouts11:41
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StsN802a bus driver taking 60s to say a full sentence with next bus stop is horrid.11:41
wazdX-Fade: or I can help with existing ones11:41
StsN802when 'next stop X' is fine11:41
Jaffawzad: also see
wazdJaffa: well, the best way is to make site W3C compatible and then fix it for IE6/711:43
Jaffawzad: Yes, I know. However, this is a call for someone to step up and *do* that ;-)11:44
wazdJaffa: I'll see what I can do11:44
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JaffaI'd suggest an email to that thread asking for what's been done to date11:45
wazdJaffa: I'm not CSS uber-guru in fact but I've been working on that kind of stuff already11:45
wazdThough I really don't like current design :(11:47
RST38hwazd: You are going to waste time just like I have done11:53
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RST38hwazd: Also had a design, coded it, but nobody seemed to care really11:54
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wazdhave you got one to see now?11:56
RST38hyes,a moment11:58
RST38hwazd: (please note that it has all the pages mocked up at in one HTML)11:59
wazdwell, scalable layout is much more advanced than static one12:01
RST38hwazd: that was the idea12:02
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wazdIn fact "tablet sized" layout is the first mistake of Glaubert's design12:02
RST38hwazd: als, the idea was to make the best layout with respect to data we want to present12:02
RST38hwazd: for example, if we just have 2-3 announcements and 20 dev documents, it makes more sense to give more layout space to dev documents12:02
wazdIt will look silly on FULL-HD screen12:02
Jaffawazd: Unfortunately, the design chosen is being implemented at a fixed with12:03
JaffaBut it *is* the design chosen, and it /is/ going to be implemented12:03
RST38hwazd: it really does not matter now12:03
wazdJaffa: yep, and that's my fault :(12:04
RST38hwazd: I have been present at the original IRC meeting that led to the design choice and it *alread* did not matter then12:04
RST38hwazd: So do not worry too much12:04
JaffaRST38h: It's easier to sell architecture designs if it's accompanied by a "pretty" implementation. A fact of life, unfortunately.12:04
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wazdJaffa: Why fixed width btw? 800 is too narrow for modern sxreens12:05
wazdIt's like apple would do w240 site :)12:06
Jaffawazd: I don't recall. It's not a decision I was arguing in favour of12:06
X-FadeI still think we need a min-width of 780, not a max width..12:06
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wazdX-Fade: true12:06
RST38hYou really do not need any fixed width. It has to scale.12:06
RST38hBut as I said, it did not matter.12:06
JaffaX-Fade: the unmaximised size of the browser window should be the smallest width at which it looks good, IMHO12:07
X-FadeRST38h: Well a sane minimum is required. As you just can't scale down too much..12:07
RST38hX-Fade: 320.12:07
wazdRST38h: well, min width is necessary to keep design in some borders, not allowing to be single coloumn12:07
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RST38hwazd: Well, at some width it will break of course, but it is going to be much less than 80012:07
RST38hwazd: Given how many 320x240 phones are out there... :)12:08
wazdRST38h: well, all depends on layout you chose :)12:08
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wazdI'd like to do "swapping 4 coloumns layout"12:08
wazd2 inner, 2 outer swapping12:09
* RST38h wonders if CreateDIBSection returns him a wider bitmap than requested12:09
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RST38hwazd: Ah, columns...12:09
RST38hwazd: You probably know the problem with columns? ;)12:09
wazdRST38h: Well, what exactly?)12:10
RST38hwazd: If any of your column contain much less data than the rest, you effectively waste space in those columns. Lots of space.12:10
RST38hwazd: So, if we are talking about a page that will be viewed on a tablet by significant number of people, you do not want columns (in fact, I would not want columns at the desktop too)12:10
wazdRST38h: well, true but today it's more positive factor12:10
RST38hwazd: Yes, you can place ads there :)12:11
wazdRST38h: today free space is not "wasted" space, the race of "bits of info per pixel" is over :)12:11
RST38hwazd: But, to prove my point, open and see how ugly and ineffective column design is12:11
RST38hwazd: reminder: you have got people with 4" 800x480 screens.12:12
wazdRST38h: look over some modern sites out there, they have lots of whitespace12:12
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RST38hwazd: and that often (but not always of course) is wrong12:12
wazdRST38h: that's why I'd prefer to use swapping coloumns. Thats dinamic-dinamic layout :)12:13
RST38hwazd: Ask any newspaper worker about column padding12:13
RST38hwazd: How does it help? They are still columns, no?12:13
wazdRST38h: polygraphy and web design are totaly different, there's nothing to compare12:14
wazdpolygraphy costs money :)12:14
wazdWeb-page don't :)12:14
wazdWhy books have white fields on the sides?) It's so much wasted space12:14
wazdWhitespace helps eyes to catch the information it needs12:15
RST38hWeb pages do not cost money but my screen space does.12:15
RST38hWhen I am using 1600x1200 26" display, it costs less of course12:16
X-FadeTry reading a page full of text on a full hd screen at 10px font without whitespace..12:16
RST38hX-Fade: This is not the same12:16
X-FadeNo space wasted, but not nice ;)12:16
RST38hX-Fade: Not talking about space inside the text12:16
wazdRST38h: If there was no scrollbars in the world - than it would be true)12:16
RST38hX-Fade: Talking about inefficient page space use12:16
wazdRST38h: It's not inefficent12:17
RST38hwazd: Guess what? Your tablet effectively has no scrollbars12:17
X-FadeRST38h: I know what you mean, that is why I wrapped around the sidebar on the planet page for instance.12:17
JaffaRST38h: There is a balance between information density, aesthetics and ease of locating categorised content12:17
RST38hNo kinetic scrolling in MicroB and to scroll with your finger you have to do a lot of physical work ;)12:17
wazdRST38h: :D12:17
RST38hJaffa: Well, and having lots of empty column space violates this balance.12:18
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gladiacan application which counts the scrolling meter would be fun12:18
RST38hTypesetters knew it for years too12:18
wazdLook how much whitespace there are12:19
JaffaRST38h: There is no "violation" of that balance, just a number of different drivers to weigh up12:19
RST38hwazd: Not a lot12:19
wazdAgain, you can't compare newspapers and webpages12:19
wazdThey're totaly different12:19
wazdIt's like comparing classical music and house12:20
RST38hAnyways, I dislike web page designs that arrange information into thin columns surrounded by unused whitespace12:20
RST38hIf these pages achieve some balance in your mind, that is up to you. But I find them wasteful and hard to read, especially on a tablet.12:21
alteregoHow do you know what revision of the beagle board you're purchasing from digikey? Or is it always the latest revision? (C7?)12:22
johnxis revision C out?12:23
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wazdWell, Slashdot is not the best example of coloumn layout :)12:23
alteregoNo, it's probably not C ^_^12:24
RST38hwazd: Exactly.12:24
alterego_B7_ is the latest revision I think12:25
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RST38hwazd: Engadget is decent though: they have got just one, thin column and it only ends after several pages12:25
GeneralAntillesalterego, B7 is latest12:25
GeneralAntillesC is scheduled for February, or March I think.12:25
GeneralAntillesI'd wait.12:25
johnxalterego, looks like end of Q1 200912:25
johnxGeneralAntilles, you still have plans for your beagle?12:26
X-FadeRST38h: I'm sure we can find enough junk for the sidebar to scroll multiple pages ;)12:26
GeneralAntillesjohnx, plans aplenty, time and patience left to get the damn thing running again not.12:26
johnxalways the way of thing...12:27
RST38hX-Fade: Do you really want to present user with this junk?12:27
X-FadeRST38h: Of course not ;)12:28
RST38hX-Fade: Then I rest my case.12:28
alteregoThere's some good CSS layout examples on the Zen site.12:28
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wazdBtw, why no "Talk" button in main menu?12:29
wazdSince ITT will merge with maemo.org12:30
JaffaRST38h: BTW, it appears that developers will be developing in JS/XHTML/CSS for Palm's webOS - with some talk even of (most of?) the shipping apps being written in the same framework.
X-Fadewazd: Because that design is from before the announcement.12:30
Jaffawazd: the design wireframe was done before that was announced12:30
X-Fadewazd: It will be included for sure ;)12:31
wazdX-Fade, Jaffa: And that's the second failure of current layout. Ok, there is some space for "talk" button but that would be last. No scalability.12:32
X-Fadewazd: Nice banner?12:32
wazdX-Fade: where?12:33
X-FadeNear get involved for instance?12:33
wazdWell, it's nice)12:34
wazdBut I'm not sure with tactics to rush user with activities :)12:34
X-FadeIt is still a mock up, changes can be made ;)12:34
Jaffawazd: the mailing list is probably a better place for this12:35
Macerhave kde/cups working  onmy n800 again12:35
Macerglad i installed cups on the ssytem flash... :)12:36
Sts|officeMacer: hehe, im just glad my work N800 battery is back and alive again12:36
Sts|officeso i can molest that one12:36
Macerhey sts12:36
Macerwell i needed to turn the n800 into something that can print12:37
Macerand use wifi so i can use it as an office app thing12:37
Maceri guess pb started to use koffice instead of openoffice12:38
Macerwhatever works i suppose12:38
Maceri need to adjust the damn keyboard though... repeat rate is a little quick12:38
RST38hJaffa: So I suspected (about WebOS) from their announcements12:40
RST38hJaffa: Remains to see how successful this thing is though12:40
Macerhm... kde12:40
johnxRST38h, so when will see the js version of VGBA?12:40
Macerdoessn't eem to control the bt repeat rate for my su8w12:40
Macerttha kind of sucks12:41
Maceri remmeber theer being  afix for this somewheer12:41
RST38hjohnx: Right after Visual Basic version, sir!12:41
Macerhopefully i can find it12:41
johnxRST38h, awesome! is the vb port after or before the TIbasic port?12:42
RST38hjohnx: TIbasic port got shut down by NEA =)12:44
alteregoGeneralAntilles: how long did it take your order to arrive?12:44
GeneralAntillesAbout a week12:44
johnxRST38h, hmm? NEA? I know my problem was always running out of variables O_o12:45
alteregoGives me enough time to setup the build environment and stuff :)12:45
alteregoWell, and polish some of my code.12:45
GeneralAntillesThey were arriving at 200 a week when I ordered12:45
GeneralAntillesDunno how high the demand is now12:45
GeneralAntillesI would wait for C, though. . . .12:46
alteregoToo late now12:46
RST38hjohnx: National Education Associations - they claimed that VGBA on TI calcs subjects them to cruel and unusual punishment n the course of work =)12:46
GeneralAntillesWell, it's proper USB EHCI, twice the RAM, ES3.0 (NEON bugs fixed, etc)12:46
alteregoI guess it's first thing in the morning in the states. So hopefully it'll get processed and dispatched today :)12:46
johnxRST38h, subjects worse on the programmer. did you ever write in it?12:47
RST38hHmm...Nokia came up with a new name for N97 - it is now a "webphone"12:47
RST38hjohnx: I looked at it and played with it a little.12:47
alteregoScht .. If I knew C was _that_ much better I'd have postponed.12:47
RST38hjohnx: Frankly, FX720 BASIC was better12:48
johnxRST38h, 26 global variables, A-Z. no functions, what's not to like?12:48
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JaffaMore details on Palm's webOS SDK (Mojo):
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GeneralAntillesalterego, well, they're cheap, anyway.12:48
GeneralAntillesSo you can always buy a second later and relegate the first to STB duty or something. :P12:49
RST38hjohnx: None of this stuff surprises me really.12:49
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johnxRST38h, ahaha. I went from teaching myself TI-Basic to learning C from an old Unix guy. Almost everyone else in that C class came from VB. They whined, I was impressed with the luxury of naming my variables.12:51
RST38hjohnx: I started with this:
Macercan someone direct me to the maemo patch for the bt keyboard repeat rate issue?12:51
RST38hjohnx: Since then, few things surprise me12:51
Maceri know someeon came out with a patch for it12:51
Maceri can't find it12:51
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johnxmmm...thumb typing on a TI-83+12:51
mavhcI was listening about the pdp8, no OR, no Load, madness12:52
GeneralAntillesGotta love the TIs12:53
RST38hTIs were pretty decent - Z80, graphical screen. I wrote a TI-84 emulator once, it is still somewhere at my disk12:53
RST38hAround TI89, they switched to 68000 for the CPU12:54
t_s_odamn it, its hard for me to say this, but i really really want palm to release a hsdpa model soon!12:54
lardmanand started doing cool things like symbolic algebra12:54
mavhcI had a casio, couldn't clear pixels, could draw lines and dots12:55
mavhcgolf game was the best I came up with12:55
johnxt_s_o, I'll hold out for more news about hackability, but then I'm with you...12:55
t_s_ojohnx: indeed, but with a whole ui built around JS, how can it not be hackable? ;)12:56
t_s_oaltho, now that i think about it, maybe it will be crackable to :S12:56
GeneralAntillest_s_o, probably ships sometime in 2010. ;)12:56
mavhcsounds like mozilla xul stuff12:56
Macerthere is  apatch for this12:56
johnxGeneralAntilles, probably ships soon, but probably costs a small fortune12:56
Macerit is so irrittaing12:56
Maceri'll find it later12:56
GeneralAntillesYeah, that too.12:56
johnxI'd like to think they have really good privilege separation and sandboxing12:57
t_s_oanyways, i got to say that the recent webkit hack has given my N800 new life :D12:57
johnxthe whole design totally lends itself to security12:57
RST38hand memory leaks12:58
alteregoWhat resolution are those Picp DLPs?12:58
infobotmethinks pico is a non-free text editor.  Try nano as a GPL'ed alternative, or if you insist on pico, download the source for pine from non-free, build it, and install the resulting pico_something.deb12:58
GeneralAntilles800x600, I think12:59
johnxalterego, some are 480x320. I saw a pico projector that was VGA and another at WVGA, but I don't remember if it was DLP (or are all pico projectors DLP?)12:59
johnxRST38h, programming that thing looks brain damaging12:59
johnxRST38h, I'm surprised you started on that and didn't end up a lit major13:00
glassjohnx: i _think_ the tech is dpl like13:00
glassnot really sure13:00
alteregoHmm, that youtube video looks like it was higher, more like 1024x76813:00
alteregoI wont bother thinking about getting one unless it's native beagle resolution :)13:01
* johnx knows nothing about the tech13:01
johnxalterego, native beagle res is pretty high...13:01
alteregoColoured lasers and mirrors ;)13:01
alteregoI thought the beagle could only do 1024x76813:01 can *play* 720p video :)13:02
alteregoIf it does higher, well, that's awesome because it was a bit limited.13:02
johnxit can display much higher13:02
alteregoOh, cool.13:02
alteregoI'll buy a new LCD monitor then :)13:02
alteregoActually, I'll probably steal one from work for a while ^_^13:02
alterego(and a projector) ^_^13:03
wazdfullspeed genesis emu, my dream came true :)13:03
Macerfound it13:04
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johnxalterego, well it should but I guess most people use 1024x768. should do 1280x1024 no problem...and I thought higher, but now I'm not sure13:05
GeneralAntillesalterego, the higher resolution support seems to be mildly dependent on your LCD13:06
GeneralAntillesas there's a bit of fiddling with the clock rates going on, I think.13:06
alteregoGeneralAntilles: okay, so the documentation was crap then? You've had it running at a higher resolution?13:06
GeneralAntillesIn Angstrom13:06
alteregoThat's just peachy :)13:07
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lcukhas anyone got an acme 100 tonne anvil handy?13:11
* alterego drops a handy 100 tonne anvil on lcuk.13:12
RST38hjohnx: ...and you haven't even found out what makes it tick yet13:12
lcuk____ ____ ____ ___13:12
GeneralAntillesI have a 100 tone anvil13:12
GeneralAntillesIt's very melodious13:12
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RST38hjohnx: Once you get acquainted with the 1-bit ring data bus through which a 168-byte message with all the register contents spins in an endless loop...13:13
lcuk:D heh speaking of melodious :D i put in the coreesound stuff and got my nokia making sound13:13
RST38hjohnx: That is how you find the path to the Great Tentacled One =)13:14
lcukadmittedly at 1am having it making the loudest most horrible random noise possible wasnt good, but it proved it worked (the neighbours told me it did)13:14
RST38h(and become His faithful servant)13:14
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lcukRST38h, i thought you worshiped the IPU?13:15
Sts|officejohnx: how's stuff going?13:16
RST38hlcuk: no, I do not worship the Irish Pharmacy Union.13:16
lcukno you twonk, the invisible pink unicorn (i only found out about it from some woman on jaiku13:18
RST38hlcuk: that is a girlish deity13:18
RST38hlcuk: I am sure girls have all got some erotic phantasies about its horn, too, and that disgusts me! =)13:18
lcukRST38h, i thought you were girlish :P13:19
X-FadePretty cool this webkit + kinetic scrolling on current hardware..13:19
* RST38h performs exorcism on lcuk, just in case13:19
RST38hX-Fade: pleasepleaseplease bring it to stock microb =)13:20
X-FadeRST38h: It is for microm.13:20
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lcukX-Fade, :) nice indeed13:22
lcukdoes it do fullscreen as nicely i wonder13:23
X-Fadelcuk: Well, I don't know. But it is a lot better than what Fennec showed us ;)13:23
GeneralAntillesLittle depressing that Nokia couldn't manage to ship what a bunch of hobbyists have13:23
lcukX-Fade, undeniably so, very very impressed by how thats looking13:25
t_s_ooh ye holy, palm will indeed go hsdpa on the pre. they just foucsed on the sprint cooperation at the presentation13:25
X-FadeYou can download webkit-eal there.13:25
X-FadeSource is here:
JaffaX-Fade: irritating that I have to use --no-check-certificate to download from garage.maemo.org13:26
Jaffa(with wget)13:27
X-FadeJaffa: Hmm you shouldn't have to?13:27
GeneralAntillesERROR: Certificate verification error for unable to get local issuer certificate13:28
GeneralAntillesTo connect to insecurely, use `--no-check-certificate'.13:28
GeneralAntillesUnable to establish SSL connection.13:28
t_s_oseems to me that nokia have all hands on fremantle right now, with only token resources focused on diablo, to take care of the biggest bugs. the rest will be left to the community to deal with...13:28
lcukX-Fade, thanks for that13:28
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Yeah, that is wget's problem..13:28
GeneralAntillest_s_o, clearly. ;)13:28
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: It needs to fetch another cert.13:28
Sts|officeX-Fade: yeah, download pages point to https:// mostly :P13:29
Sts|office(which is bloody irritating :P)13:29
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Which it doesn't have support for..13:29
t_s_oto bad that they cant place the wifi autoconnect out of offline mode as one of those, as its annoying as hell13:29
RST38hX-Fade: Yes, but not the stock version? In other words, I can't just install some plugin and have my current gecko-based MicroB kinetically scroll?13:30
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Sts|officeRST38h: i think it's a drop-in plugin really13:30
X-FadeRST38h: No, this adds webkit to your maemo browser.13:30
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Sts|officeand you can change engine in the browser ui13:30
X-FadeAnd you can switch between them.13:31
wazdWhoa. 10 megs :)13:31
t_s_ojust be glad the most recent version got rid of a equally large dep ;)13:32
lardmanX-Fade: ah good, you can switch, that was what was stopping me13:34
wazdI see no kinetic scrolling though :)13:34
RST38hSts: Would be cool to have without webkit even13:34
t_s_ohrmf, i still wonder why scrolling itt in minimal theme using webkit creates so much tearing. i thought the theme was supposed to be light weight. i get less tearing on pages with heavier graphics...13:34
RST38hX-Fade: not sure if I am ready for webkit13:34
X-Fadewazd: I needed a reboot.13:35
wazdI don't see any difference in rendering for now13:35
JaffaYeah, I use "WebKit Settings" to switch user agent, but no kinetic scrolling and user agent still reports Gecko & tablet browser.13:35
RST38hbut how about features - downloading, etc?13:35
X-FadeJaffa: Reboot.13:36
t_s_odownloading dont work yet, instead one get the file rendered as a "page" ;)13:36
X-FadeHmm fullscreen isn't half bad..13:36
X-FadeA bit of tearing/flickering..13:36
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JaffaX-Fade: indeed, am doing. "WebKit Settings" should tell you do to that (or restart browserd itself)13:36
* lardman twiddles thumbs waiting for the deb to download & install13:37
X-FadeThe damping of the kinetic scrolling is a bit high. But still..13:37
t_s_oiirc, the deb supposedly restarts browserd, so im not sure why it needs the initial reboot after install13:37
X-FadeNice ;)13:37
t_s_oX-Fade: tweakable in gconf13:37
wazdWell, it's pretty nice!13:38
X-Fadet_s_o: Hmm need to check that..13:38
JaffaVery nice13:38
wazdEven Engadget is scrolling smoothly13:38
X-FadeFullscreen only works via the menu option. But then how do you get back? :)13:39
JaffaFull Gmail is usable :-O13:39
wazdSome tearing appears but who cares))13:39
JaffaX-Fade: full screen button works both ways for me13:39
t_s_otap the page then try the button13:39
t_s_oits a "focus" issue of some sort...13:39
X-Fadet_s_o: Ah yeah, indeed.13:39
X-Fadet_s_o: Well, a few issues but still... nice.13:40
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t_s_oone interesting bit, if one hold down the menu button (most useful on the N800) then one can select text just by dragging13:41
wazdone more prove that hardware is nothing, straight arms are all :)13:41
t_s_oheh, could be that one need to tweak a setting in gconf for that selection thing, i dont recall what the default setting was, i just bumped into it by accident13:43
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lardmanhmm, browser doesn't seem to ask for a connection now13:45
t_s_oone known bug13:45
t_s_oand a somewhat annoying one if one have it on automatic timeout, like i have...13:45
t_s_oone even have to poke the browser after the connection is back up to have it retry the connection13:46
lardmanyep, I just noticed that13:46
lardmandid someone say how to switch between the backends?13:47
X-Fadelardman: Go to the settings menu..13:47
wazdWebkit settings13:47
X-FadeIn the main menu..13:47
lardmanah, in control panel?13:47
X-FadeSettings, about Extras.13:48
wazdClick apps menu -> settings13:48
lardmanmenu > Tools > Settings?13:48
X-Fadelardman: No.. Maemo menu..13:48
X-Fadelardman: Not inside app13:48
Sts|office"eBay subsidiary Skype is beta-testing a "Moblin" version of its proprietary VoIP softphone."13:49
Sts|officeheh, must be easy after having a hildon port13:49
X-FadeSts|office: Moblin dumped hildon13:49
wazdTrue Programmer will edit gconf to switch it :)13:49
wazdOr reflash the device :)13:49
Sts|officeX-Fade: they did? completely? interesting13:49
lardmanwell it's much nicer, better response than microb13:49
t_s_ohehe, anyone for counting scorpions? ;)13:50
X-FadeSome redraw issues on fast scrolling heavy websites, but I think that can be fixed.13:50
GAN800Give it a month.o13:51
wazdJust saw Kate Alhola's video bout GGadgets, very funny accent :-)13:52
Sts|officeGAN800: the plan was for browser UI to be open sourced too wasn't it?13:52
johnxso moblin dropped ubuntu and maemo ... strange13:52
X-FadeWe should give this guy some attention..13:52
X-FadeHe's doing a really great job.13:53
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Sts|officeX-Fade: i think he's getting quite a lot already, with people testing/commenting/loving it etc13:53
Sts|officethe thread is quite actiev13:53
Macerhm mono for android13:53
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X-FadeSts|office: There are people who don't follow itt, you know ;)13:54
GAN800Sts|office, for Fremantle.13:54 coming to a cell phone near you13:54
X-FadeMacer: Mono was ported to the tablets a long time ago?13:54
GAN800No real discussion of Diablo's13:54
Sts|officeGAN800: not a -huge- problem13:54
Macerim sure it was?13:54
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Macerthey ported it to android13:55
Sts|officeGAN800: if it still uses hildon and friends.. no biggie13:55
GAN800weird having a percentage instead of number of objects13:55
Maceri want to see what a .net app looks like in android13:55
wazdDamn, I'm gonna suicide with that worker's music!13:55
GAN800For a second I thought it was thinking there were 100 objects on every page. ;)13:55
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wazdMy brain can't face so much cheap pop russian music(((13:56
Sts|officewazd: headphones :)13:56
wazdI have to listen to them if they screw up :)13:57
t_s_oim trying to get a2dp working, but when i do a2dp enable in xterm, i get a error about a missing argument or something...13:57
GAN800Wow, I'm not sure if webkit crashed or what, but suddenly I'm back in MicroB.13:57
wazdIt's better than to stand behind their backs13:57
t_s_oGAN800: it probably crashed13:57
t_s_oseems browserd autorecovers using microb13:58
GAN800Text entry is unpossible13:58
X-FadeGAN800: No problem here ;)13:58
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GAN800Can't get my finger keyboard13:59
* johnx should poke at his a2dp script again...been a while13:59
GAN800and it's weird about clearing and appending to the entry13:59
X-FadeGAN800: It does the osk for me. Not the finger one..13:59
johnxt_s_o, if you paste the exact error I can tell you if I have an idea13:59
GAN800Also: crashes. :P13:59
johnxGAN800, you're looking at the wrong websites :P user error WONTFIX :)14:00
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t_s_ohmm, seems i had uninstalled the package14:00
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RST38hwazd: Just play NoM at full volume for an hour or so14:02
t_s_oheh, thats funny. installed it and didnt get said error. maybe i had a bad install the first time round...14:02
RST38hwazd: That should suffice =)14:02
johnxt_s_o, also, that package and what it does is kind of outdates14:02
t_s_oi was figuring i should give it a spin, unlikely that i will be using the tablet as my primary music player anyways...14:04
johnxnow that I know how to do deb packages better I should spend about 15 minutes and get something into extras devel, but I don't even use a2dp any more14:06
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lardmant_s_o: I need to backport some sbc fixes so we get better sound quality14:06
johnxlardman, is there a nice package of that?14:07
lardmanjohnx: why not?14:07
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johnxkills battery life and I can actually tell the difference in sound quality. also my old a2dp headphones are uncomfortable with glasses and huge and clunky :/14:07
lardmanjohnx: I'll backport it and re-package bluez-utils with it in; I should try submitting the patch as a bug and see if it can be pushed through as an official update14:07
lcukt_s_o, less tearing on heavy pages because it takes longer to draw so giving more chance to update lcd before it tries to overwrite it14:07
lardmanjohnx: yeah, new code sounds better14:08
johnxyou mean the pitch changes, right?14:08
lardmanssvb has been patching like mad, he's going for optimisations now too14:08
lcukello lardman14:08
lardmanjohnx: pitch changes are, I think, more related to cpu load, the timing gets thrown off14:08
* RST38h wonders if he will finally be able to check if his bt headphones do a2dp =)14:09
wazdah, pitch changes!14:09
lardmanthere are some optimisations which have reduced that, at least on the DSP, presumably it will also hold true for the ARM too14:09
wazdIt's so awesome!))14:09
wazdI was laughing when I heard my player enthusiasm :)14:09
lardmanlol, I don't know what some songs are supposed to sound like now, so used to listening to them gooiiinnnggg sslllooowwwllllyyyy14:09
RST38hlardman: Why would it change the pitch though? Isn't there a constant sampling frequency?14:10
RST38hor it simply can't keep up?14:10
lardmanif the samples are sent too slowly the pitch drops, that's mu understanding14:10
wazdI had pitches both ways, slower and faster14:10
lardmanyeah, then it catches up and plays them too fast14:11
lardmanbut with the dsp stuff it tended to be too slow all the time, until it would drop out and reset14:11
t_s_olcuk: ah, that makes sense. somewhat sadly...14:11
lardmannow it runs very nicely mind you14:11
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lardmanlcuk: belated hello :)14:11
RST38hlardman: Ah, so headphones will handle underruns by scaling pitch? interesting14:12
lardmanso it seems14:12
lardmanwell pitch scaling it just an effect of playing the samples too slowly of course14:13
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lardmansome wierdness going on in the headphone hw14:13
johnxit's great too. sounds exactly like a portable casette player running out of battery power :)14:13
Sts|officehmm, does anyone know a way to make the kernel boot the rootfs instead of the initfs? like, through flasher14:13
lardmanjohnx: lol, yeah14:13
lardmanjohnx: anyway, the faster code is far better, and the fixed code sound better too, not clipped14:14
johnxguess I should try and get a better package out then. probably not tonight, but "soon" (tm)14:15
lardmanwhat's wrong with the existing one?14:15
johnxthat config file is scary14:15
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johnxand I'd like to do a proper package that can be put in extras or extras-devel complete with .install14:15
lardmanI'll try to produce a backported bluez-utils on Sunday or early next week14:15
lardmanjohnx: good plan14:16
Sts|officedoesn't this shout SSU upgrade problems? i mean, with the havoc tz1 caused..14:16
lardmanSts|office: what's that?14:16
lardmanah, it'll be the same version as comes installed14:16
Sts|officewell, putting a bluez-utils into extras :P14:17
lardmanno, it won't go into extras14:17
Sts|officeah, k14:17
johnxlardman, actually, maybe we could package it in some other way...14:17
lardmanI'd prefer it to be released officially with an extra ossoX increment, but that will probably not happen very quickly if at all14:17
johnxalso, I can use zenity this time14:17
lardmanjohnx: the a2dp support stuff will be fine in extras, would be good14:18
johnxwell, if it depends on a hacked bluez-utils that's not in extras...14:18
Sts|officeqwerty12_N800: around?14:19
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lcukack hello14:22
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X-FadeGAN800: Ping?14:23
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lcukanyone know where bofh has gone, no new episodes since dec 12th14:24
* lcuk wonders if its moved or just on extended holiday14:24
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wazdokay, I finaly can code the page14:25
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RST38hlcuk: fired in a crisis! =)14:38
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wazdJust sent vitae to THG russia btw :)14:45
wazdTalking bout "fired in a crisis" :D14:45
johnxSts|office, sorry to nag if you already knew, but I can't seem to reach ...14:46
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Sts|officejohnx, oh, right, i almost forgot O_o14:46
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Sts|officeserver stalled yesterday, going there when im going home at 4pm today14:46
johnxalright, I'll poke at something else for a while :)14:47
RST38hWho are THG?14:47
Sts|officeheh heh14:50
* RST38h is going to ask a stupid question now14:51
RST38hHow do I set the dash pattern in Windows GDI? =)14:51
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lcukRST38h, insert ubuntu cd and follow instructions14:52
lcukRST38h, toms hardware i assume14:53
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RST38hlcuk: Yes, found it with Google but still can't quite believe it14:54
RST38hlcuk: And, btw, no CDROM drive, so he he he he he he he =)14:54
johnxusb will work :)14:55
lcukwhat are you writing for windows for, and if you are doing it in C you are braver than me14:55
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RST38hlcuk: I am writing for money.14:56
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wazdTom's Hardware Guide14:58
RST38hwazd: But why, WHY?14:59
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lcuksame reason you are writing in windows :: money14:59
lcuki assume14:59
RST38hlcuk: No, I do not mean wazd, I mean THG14:59
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wazdWell, pretty easy place and they're training studio photography, that I haven't practiced yet15:00
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wazdAnd access to some cool gadgets :P15:01
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wazdNew Adobe Dreamweaver is pretty cool, trying to help everywhere it could :)15:06
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alteregoRight, I should make a shopping list for what I'm gonna need with my beagle board.15:10
Sts|officethe rs232 connector thing is a godsend.15:10
Sts|officeand a usb cable :P15:10
Sts|officeand a null modem cable that actually works :P (i found out my connector i had from a mobo was twisted badly)15:11
alteregoI've got an RS232 cable already with some PC104 boards.15:11
RST38hwazd: Really strange for them to open a shop here, given how many similar sites already exist...15:11
alteregoI've got an RS232<->Bluetooth (SPP) so that's sorted too :)15:11
alteregoWhat I really need is an S-Video DIM to SCART and a hdmi<->DVI15:12
alteregoI also need a DVI capable monitor, but I'll steal that from work until I buy my own.15:12
lardmancu chaps15:14
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* lcuk can't wait for a packaged omap3+touch solution15:17
RST38hlcuk: N97? =)15:18
lcukim actually thinking more like a ninja swoop on nokia hq, or maybe movial :D15:19
lcukthey have plenty15:19
lcukinfact, wheres Ti based :D15:19
jaska*shrug* texas?:D15:19
* lcuk dons his ninja suit15:19
johnxall they have is calculators and chips though15:19
lcukheh yeah good point15:20
lcukno its not johnx15:20
lcuklook here, they have omap3 in handheld touch format15:21
RST38hjohnx: Who knows? Maybe lcuk will find a Mighty OMAP3-Based Graphing Calculator there?15:21
RST38hjohnx: TI-666, if you wish...15:21
johnxwith the awesome abcdef key layout15:21
wazdSony are real freaks. 1600 on 8" screen... I have 1440 on 19"15:21
lcukwazd, yeah nokia are like that as well, 800 in 4"15:22
johnxwazd, nah, the freaky part is they plan to ship it with an OS stuck at 96dpi15:22
lcukor x2 1600 in 8"15:22
wazdBut Maemo have zooming and large fonts15:23
lcukjohnx i agree with that problem, they should supply suitable reading glasses15:23
lcukwazd, so does windows15:23
lcukand wheres zooming on maemo?15:23
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wazdBrowser :)15:24
johnxcompile xmag :)15:24
lcuk[ctrl] mousewheell15:24
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lcukany browser does scaling surely15:24
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RST38hwazd: Sony's thing is shiny though!15:24
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RST38h(and will probably have a real Intel CPU)15:25
wazdRST38h: nope, it's atom15:25
johnxanyways, point is maemo is actually sized for a 225dpi screen, and windows won't be, because (unless something has changed) changing font size radically tends to break random apps' layouts15:25
lcukwhat does a fake intel chip look like?15:25
RST38hwazd: Poor Sony then...15:25
lcukwazd, atom is real intel15:25
wazdlcuk: but not real chip :)15:25
johnxlcuk, fake intel chip? ever heard of cyrix?15:25
lcukyeah but thats not "intel chip" its "intel compatible"15:26
RST38hWell, Atom is a real chip15:26
lcukyeah and really made by intel15:26
RST38hReal intel compatible chip by Intel15:26
lcukso its not fake15:26
glasslcuk: i guess it would look my intel usb hub. crappiest quality ever15:26
wazdbut not real CPU))15:26
RST38hnaah, not fake15:26
RST38hhey, it is faster than OMAP2!15:26
lcukwazd, whats wrong with atom?  its revolutionary from intels POV15:27
RST38hI just wouldn't spend $800+ for a "netbook" with Atom inside15:27
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johnxheh, and clock for clock, I bet a 603e is faster than an ARM11 as well...15:27
lcukeee tablet looks interesting15:27
Meiz_n810hopefully arm-laptops pop out soon15:27
wazdlcuk: well, it does what it meant to do15:27
* lcuk dislocates his arm15:27
jaskaits a poor mans x86, no out-of-order, register renames etc?15:27
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johnxjaska, it's a fast pentium mmx :)15:28
lcukanyway, bbl15:28
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wazdBut UMPC's on Atom are total crap15:30
wazdLike benq's one15:30
johnxMIDs or UMPCs?15:30
wazdwho needs that hot brick that works for 2 hours?15:30
wazdBoth :015:30
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mavhcsomeone with no heating?15:31
johnxso neat to see the CPU market heating up again in the embedded area15:31
mavhcvista is supposed to scale stuff better, winfx stuff anyway15:31
jaskamy old p200mmx laptop was nice for doing wlan measurements in -30c.. kept my hands warm15:31
johnxheh, pun not intended15:31
mavhcintel: arm sucks, well, except for that strongarm that we bought, that didn't suck when we owned it, but after we sold it it sucked again15:32
t_s_oiirc, that was the interesting thing comparing via nano to intel atom. atom went in-order to get the wattage down, nano went out-of-order to get speed up. end result, comparable speed to watt ratio...15:32
johnxjaska, and now you can relive those old memories with the new, Atom. I'd love to see a clock for clock comparison against a 200mmx :)15:32
wazdI don't know details of CPU actions, but why there are still no easy recompilling from x86 to Arm?15:32
johnxwazd, there are. look at debian/ubuntu15:33
jaskawell, the laptop was the slowest 200mmx possible.. problems with l2 cache i think15:33
mavhcif you have the source, and it makes no assumptions about byte order, register size etc, it might work15:33
jaskaalso if you made it beep while a network card transmitted the hardware locked up15:33
johnxah, separate L2 cache. had to be careful which mobo you picked back then :)15:33
jaskaetc :)15:33
wazdAnd why then everybody stuck with x86?15:33
mavhceverything in debian works on ARM15:33
mavhcbecause of closed source stuff, and the cost of making faster and faster chips15:34
johnxwazd, because it's only easy to recompile if you write proper, portable code in the first place that doesn't make stupid assumptions15:34
t_s_owazd: to costly to get all those in-house solutions going on new hardware?15:34
wazdMaybe better put money in software transition to arm platforms15:34
jaskax86 has to be the ugliest possible isa tho15:34
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johnxwazd, you'd lose so much performance you'd be better off on x8615:34
t_s_oheh, i keep thinking that there are many offices that run internal systems built around ms office, using the vbscript as a RAD of sorts...15:35
jaska(actually, not sure if its ugliest possible, i havent encountered ia64)15:35
johnxwazd, or do you mean recoding crappy old windows apps?15:35
wazdI don't mean to throw away x86 and use arm everywhere15:35
wazdbut x86 UMPCs are totally ridiculous15:35
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johnxyes. should see more cortex-a8 UMPCs soon15:36
johnxbut windows being x86 only is a pretty big factor right there15:36
alteregoThere's this really hilarious thread about pandora on youtube. It's just one massive flame war about the DS being better than it ^_^15:37
jaskadont really care about windows on that size machines, latest 3d fps games wont run anyway :)15:37
* alterego wanna be techie gamers are hilarious ^_^15:37
wazdpeople don't need OS, htey need software15:37
alteregoThat wasn't an emote ^_^15:38
mavhcx86 is like an evil devil child, even its parents can't kill it, as intel tried to do with ia6415:38
johnxwazd, people don't know what they want. Also: "People hate change, even change for the better."15:38
jaskaia64 had somewhat of a "second system effect"15:38
johnxprobably some deeply ingrained survival instinct15:38
wazdDestroy Humanity! :)15:38
mavhcit's like microsoft's backwards compatibility, it makes windows suck more, but they can't leave it out15:39
alteregoI think mobility will be an important step into the demise of the ia32 architecture ;)15:39
johnxwazd, heh, "Now I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people. I'm just saying we should take all the warning labels off of stuff and let things work themselves out."15:39
mavhccan we just castrate them?15:40
alteregoFor instance, the next tablet will have the ability to run amazing games through your TV. You can get a wiimote and pair it with the "N900" and you've got a winner mobile console O_O15:40
johnxalterego, and the move to computers being more an appliance15:40
alteregoIn the future, the only people needing actual workstations will be developers, media producers and service providers. The normal desktop user now wont need one.15:41
t_s_odata portability will be a major thing. to bad that cloud solutions seems hell bent on recreating the proprietary formats of ms office and similar...15:41
johnxin the early days of electricity people would have one electric motor that they would swap around to power different things. Then motors got cheap and everything has its own. We're on the verge of that same situation with computers. [no sources cited15:41
alteregoHeh, cloud computing sounds like vapour where to me ;)15:42
mavhcthe average house has over 100 computers already15:42
alteregoDNA based storage, now that's something I can see happening ^_^15:42
* alterego chickles.15:42
alteregomavhc: did you watch the Christmas lectures ;)15:42
RST38hjohnx: in here, most warning labels are already off15:42
RST38hjohnx: does not seem to solve the problem though, so more proactive measures may be required15:42
johnxRST38h, "Hot coffee is hot." "Do not attempt to stop chainsaw with hands or genitals."15:43
t_s_oalterego: to me its mostly about cloud storage then actual computing. in that having contacts, calendar and files online (with automatic mirroring onto devices as they connect) makes for backup and access at the same time15:43
alteregot_s_o: I couldn't agree more.15:43
alteregoI have a setup like that already :)15:43
Sts|officejohnx: <- am i missing anything there?15:43
mavhcalterego: yeah, my cousin's daughter was in the audience, seeing if we could spot her15:43
RST38hjohnx: "And DO SEE what this button does"15:43
mavhcI want some Do Not Eat stickers to go around putting on random stuff15:44
alteregomavhc: I found them very interesting. Even though I already new it all I still enjoyed watching it :)15:44
mavhcalterego: they do get to demo the latest stuff, instead of just reading about it15:44
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johnxSts|office, looks good :)15:45
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mavhcat some point I need to be able to download OpenGoogleDocs to my home server, or to EC2 and run it myself to have control15:46
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johnxmavhc, yeah, RMS thinks the same thing.15:48
johnxI'm not too worried as long as I can get my data out15:48
Sts|officeheh, danish public started realizing how vulnerable they are if a service provider goes tits up15:49
alteregoI just host everything myself.15:49
alteregoI wouldn't trust a anyone else with my data :)15:49
Sts|officecompany went bankrupt, no way of getting your data out15:49
alteregoPlus it's good having the fine grain control over every aspect of my application interaction.15:50
johnxalterego, I make it a point not to deal with email servers or spam filtering unless someone is paying me15:50
alteregoHeh :)15:50
alteregoI don't have any spam filtering and my email box is clean :)15:50
alteregoI've got a nice little email setup actually, using postfix and dovecot.15:50
* Sts|office uses a very cheap mx hotel. works brilliantly.15:51
johnxguess my email address got out somehow, or it's just too easy to guess15:51
johnxI get spam in every human language15:51
alteregoAuthentication against a MySQL database, POP3 and IMAP4 with TLS. I also wrote a handy Rails application for managing users and domains. Which I use at work.15:51
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Sts|officeok, Texrat keeps on talking about SyncML to calendar on Maemo..15:51
Sts|officewhere is it? :P15:51
alteregoI get more spam on my blog, and that has only been online for three weeks O_O15:51
alteregoopensync ftw! :)15:52
mavhcI wouldn't trust me with my data either, I'm crap at backing up, I don't care about privacy, easily solved with encryption, just if something is closed/"upgraded"15:52
JaffaSts|office: GPE-Calendar/OpenSync supports SyncML15:52
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mavhcjohnx: my klingon spam still getting through?15:53
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mavhcmr spock ears for sale on ebay would be a good subject for klingon spam, narrow your market15:56
alteregoWow, ebuyer are doing a massive January sale15:56
alteregoI'm gonna buy a new TV :)15:56
Sts|officejohnx: i'm pondering how we can try out nokia's initial green light of provided images15:56
Sts|officei'm thinking we can tread waters by a simple "take initfs image from existing firmware image, do one-two modifications on servers and provide under license agreement (and MAC auth) on"15:57
RST38hSts: That one probably won't fly15:59
Sts|officeRST38h: any reasons why it wouldn't?16:00
johnxyeah, pulling from initfs seems easiest.16:00
johnxSts|office, have you tried an android kernel with mer, out of curiosity?16:00
Sts|officejohnx: think solca did16:01
RST38hSts: Well, you are creating a derivative work from their whole initfs, which may lead to customers blaming them for the bugs in it16:01
Sts|officeRST38h: ,
JaffaRST38h: that's the whole point16:01
RST38hpulling some choice parts and clearly labelling them as nokia ip would be better16:01
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Sts|officeso rewriting initfs and taking in the parts we need?16:02
lcuk~lart .net16:02
* infobot throws .net's poor little doggy off a cliff16:02
JaffaIsn't the point of doing it server-side, and having the MAC auth/licence agreeement that there's no real restriction on *how* the images are put together16:02
Sts|officeyeah, it is16:02
RST38hso, you want to create new initfs on a Nokia server dynamically?16:03
Sts|officeRST38h: maemo.org16:03
RST38hfrom pieces taken from the old initfs and your own stuff?16:03
JaffaAnd so I can't see that step #1 in testing that infrastructure being "taking existing Maemo image and making a small change [i.e. setting an additional environment var during boot]" being a problem16:03
Sts|officeRST38h: yeah16:04
RST38hSts: It is cute, but probably won't fly through their legal department16:04
Sts|officeRST38h: well, they seemed not to freak extremely at first16:04
Sts|officewhich is interesting16:04
Sts|office(they were probably just busy to get earlier home for xmas, though .. :>)16:04
JaffaRST38h: Nokia are involved in these discussions16:04
RST38hSts: neural pathways are too long, your post hasn't reached The Brain yet16:04
johnxRST38h, they've already been releasing "unofficial" images anyways16:05
RST38hjohnx: Good argument for it16:05
RST38hI kinda doubt it would atter to them where the image is built at the end though16:05
Sts|officei think it matters how it's distributed :P16:06
RST38hThey would like to 1) avoid liability and 2) avoid IP leakage16:06
johnxwell, the stuff we want is on the server, and the images would need to be distributed on the server16:06
JaffaThe reason for having it built on is that there is then never a version (or component part) which is third party sourced (e.g. Flash) which is out-there not behind a license agreement16:06
johnxno reason to pull it down and put it up again16:06
JaffaIf the Flash-bit was stored in mer's git, then anyone could reuse it or build it outside of a Nokia device. Meaning Nokia have been complicit in violating their contracts with third party suppliers.16:07
Sts|officemm, i'd stay clear of even mentioning flash. the more interesting parts are stuff like umac.ko and the wifi firmware :P16:07
Sts|office(and bluetooth)16:08
JaffaSts|office: True, but it's a simple way of demonstrating the reasoning16:08
johnxRST38h, following gizmodo's RSS feed?16:08
RST38hjohnx: Among others16:08
RST38hjohnx: You haven't seen what DailyRotten brought this morning yet...16:08
johnxRST38h, I don't read it :)16:09
RST38hjohnx: Wrong, wrong choice =)16:09
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johnxRST38h, it's like a supermarket tabloid :/16:09
RST38hjohnx: Some time around 2004, you did not have to read CNN because all the important news were at DailyRotten anyway =)16:10
RST38hjohnx: Unlike tabloid's most DR's stories are real.16:10
johnxRST38h, eh. I have no interest in that kind of drama16:11
RST38hjohnx: is there any other drama left worth interest? =)16:13
johnxRST38h, let's just say, I'm happy to enjoy/deal with my own relationships without caring about drama that happens to people totally unrelated to me16:15
johnxthere are only so many hours in the day16:15
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RST38hjohnx: it is temporary.16:16
RST38hjohnx: but DR is forever! =)16:16
johnxRST38h, that's the first good argument against my plan to live forever16:17
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eichicho {A}{B}{C}{D}16:24
eichikann ich mir so nicht alle möglichkeiten rauslassen?16:25
* alterego wonders if fremantle will run on the beagle board16:25
johnxalterego, mer :)16:25
andre__eichi, was that german language?16:25
RST38hjohnx: 100% agree on that one16:25
Sts|officealterego: maemo runs with a bit of hacks, so :P16:26
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eichisorry, wrong channel16:29
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johnxmust be getting old. just thought, "Slashdot is really going downhill."16:32
Sts|officeit's been going downhill for quite a bit of years16:32
johnxfor a long time I just held the belief that it was never that good to start with16:33
jaskalike 10 or so16:33
Sts|officehm, it was possible to change initfs nokia logo right?16:33
johnxgood question16:33
RST38hjohnx: "Enthusiastic but dull" (C)anonymous about Slashdotters16:33
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jaskaatleast it doesnt play a retarded hands touching animation like the s60 phone i used to have16:34
johnxwas hoping for some *sane* discussion about that new Palm thing, but slashdot makes ITT look like a mensa meeting16:34
RST38hSts: Yep, ITT should have a post on that16:34
Sts|officeit "probably" helps a bit if the initfs doesn't try to convince people it's a nokia initfs..16:35
RST38hjohnx: A moment, I just saw a more meaningful place in google16:35
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RST38hjohnx: relatively decent public view snapshot here:
johnxRST38h, thanks16:37
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alteregoYour mom's a Nokia initfs16:46
* alterego wonders where that came from O_O16:47
Sts|officeow, burn16:47
aquatixalterego: your mom's so big she has her own gravity field!16:47
* aquatix blinks16:48
aquatixnot sure where that came from either16:48
alteregoaquatix: at least mines not big enough to create a point singularity like yours :P16:48
aquatixoi :P16:48
alteregoThere doing some _very_ good deals at ebuyer on TV's. I'm gonna buy one for the beagle board.16:49
aquatixheh :)16:50
aquatixnow that's showing a good heart16:50
aquatixbuying your beagle board its own tv16:50
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alteregoWell, it's going to get turned into a glitzy 3D PVR :)16:51
alteregoWith support for watching multiple channels simultaneously :)16:52
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alterego - All those streams are coming  from the same DVB-T tuner dongle :)16:52
Sts|officekinda neat though16:54
Sts|officewhich DVB-T dongle?16:54
alteregoIt's some cheap one, I'll let you know when I get home.16:54 down?16:55
alteregoBasically, I was reading a website and you want to get a cheap dongle that's compatible with Linux because the most expensive ones automatically filter out the channel from the multiplex. Where as the cheaper ones stream the whole multiplex, which allows you to access multiple channels _on_ it.16:55
Sts|officeMeiz_n810: yeah, should be up in 40 mins again16:55
alteregoIf I get another two cheap dongles I should be able to watch every single freeview channel in the UK simultaneously. At least the major ones.16:56
Sts|officeprovided the server didn't get stolen or something (i have a backup.)16:56
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RST38hHappy DVB-H viewers...16:58
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alteregoI don't think DVB-H has much coverage in the UK :/16:58
wazdaltergo: give me your display right now!16:58
wazdalterego: Obey!1116:59
RST38hno coverage here at all16:59
alteregowazd: it's my laptops ;)16:59
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RST38hnot in the states either, afaik16:59
aquatixwazd: sudo give display17:00
skiburI know we can port x86 apps to an arm system, but can it be done that other way?17:01
RST38haquatix: xhost +17:01
RST38hskibur: Yes. Next question?17:01
aquatixwazd: or did i have to imagine a Dalek sound with it? :)17:01
aquatixRST38h: :)17:01
skiburWith what X compiler?17:01
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RST38hskibur: With a big X compiler!17:05
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skiburo nevermind, its been done.  --->
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skiburA, I need a scatchbox17:14
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StsN800qwerty12, its fairly easy to make a diablo kernel that boots rootfs instead of initfs isn't it?17:18
qwerty12StsN800, yes17:18
StsN800anything i can prod you for?17:19
StsN800just pondering best way to make a flashable mer at this stag17:20
qwerty12And you start components from initfs separately/or use your own replacements?17:20
qwerty12Wait, I'll see if I can knock up an standard diablo kernel that boots from rootfs.17:21
StsN800we cannot distribute a initfs atm so17:21
qwerty12Want fanoush's mmc patch in there for good measure? :D17:22
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StsN800the act of finding which one is internal/external is a nightmare17:23
qwerty12(can't believe Nokia messed things up, it's ok to ship a device that does that but not a kernel & xserver with rotation... incompetent shits)17:23
StsN800if it works feel free to add community fixes17:28
StsN800rotation is good17:28
qwerty12Does Mer support Xrandr yet?17:29
StsN800think so17:29
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qwerty12Cool :-)17:29
StsN800Meiz_n810, rep up again17:31
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qwerty12ffs, why does menuconfig suck balls17:38
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* Stskeeps tries to figure out what pizza to order17:43
qwerty12Weed special17:44
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wazdScrew this, I won't make any templates, let's sit with 5th grader website, okay thats fine17:48
Stslaptopafternoon wazd17:49
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wazdReally just time wasting, I can put a .png in portfolio17:51
* qwerty12 kills my n800 counterpart. Die bitch17:52
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Stslaptopwazd: applying for a job or something? :P17:53
qwerty12Maemo doesn't like being booted without its initfs :>17:53
Stslaptopqwerty12: probably not17:53
qwerty12I know not17:54
wazdNo it's won't boot :)17:54
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wazdJust tried to push my template17:55
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wazdBut unfortunately I'm late and there are already 4 (!) pages made with chosen one17:55
X-Fadewazd: Doesn't mean that everything is set in stone.17:56
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X-Fadewazd: Although the global theme is agreed on..17:56
X-FadeThere is still a lot of layout work to be done..17:56
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wazdX_Fade: it's really not the level of advanced developement platform website IMHO, and not only mine17:59
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wazdX_Fade: Just look around, check other websites, not only Canola2 ones17:59
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wazdX-Fade: Check at last :)17:59
X-Fadewazd: Sorry, I can't. Is down for me..18:01
wazdX-Fade: All these stamps, rounded corners and washed floors are already gone18:01
wazdX-Fade: They were trends 2 or three years ago18:01
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alteregoOooo, I want one!
alteregoThough, I might make my own.18:03
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wazdX-Fade: Now they're all history. Only apple uses it, cause they used this style for whole life18:04
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wazdX-Fade: And now you're making a website for 2 or 3 year lifecycle in style that's already old18:06
Stskeepsat least it's not
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wazdStskeeps: Not dramaticaly far from it in fact18:09
X-Fadewazd: It is a community project, not a company.18:10
wazdX-Fade: And that allows it to suck right from the start?)18:10
wazdX-Fade: Nokia spent zillions of euros on site redesign18:10
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wazdX-Fade: I don't think they spent that bag of money on bad product18:12
X-Fadewazd: But you also have to understand that everything is taste. Some like it, some don't.18:12
Stskeepsdamn, that pizza came fast :P18:12
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wazdStskeeps: I have Pizza restraunt right in my building so they just fly to my floor with it :)18:13
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wazdX-Fade: I totaly agree, and the main goal is to make site cover maximum of peoples tastes18:14
X-FadeI think that the most important thing is the layout, the way information is presented and can be found.18:14
X-FadeThings like rounded edges is just sugar.18:15
X-FadeAnd can easily be changed by just tweaking the css.18:15
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wazdX-Fade: Well, you're making a web site to remake it later?18:17
X-FadeNo, but I don't expect a look to last very long either ;)18:17
wazdX-Fade: here's the site of most popular russian design studio18:18
wazdX-Fade: Optimus Maximus and stuff18:18
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X-Fadewazd: That cries ugly to me?18:18
wazdX-Fade: yes, and it's 5 years old18:19
X-FadeYou have to understand that the design was done by the guy who designed the logo. And that logo was picked by community members.18:19
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X-FadeEverything has been done out in the open. Current design is still open for tweaks, but it was picked a few months ago.18:20
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wazdX-Fade: And that's my fault that I've lost this discussion18:21
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wazdX-Fade: Why the web-site design is done by logo designer?18:22
X-Fadewazd: But as said, there is still a lot open to be discussed. But I'm really not the one to talk to. Post to the list.18:22
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wazdX-Fade: ok, I'll write my observations in some gentle form :)18:28
* lcuk bows his head18:29
* lcuk mourns the loss of another of his apps18:29
wazdSorry for my bad passion but I feel really bad when something really bad in desing happening that affects me :)18:30
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Stskeepslcuk: liqsanity?18:30
lcukno, the mighty wheels of change bring about apps which are less capable, slower (but prettier), and means more good code is put on the scrapheap :) in this case its been stable since 200218:31
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TheFatalwhat text editor can i use to modify some .xml file ?18:32
lcukliqed ;)18:32
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TheFatalbut from terminal18:33
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mikkov_vi, emacs or nano18:34
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mikkov_X-Fade: are donwload statistics graphs working? They all say "Last update: 2008-12-24 09:20 UTC"18:36
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X-Fademikkov_: I'm waiting for the stats for last week of 2008, the stats generator overlapped and I requested new ones.18:51
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mikkov_X-Fade: thanks. btw about the Pearls, I think that aisleriot should be listed in the Pearl list.
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X-Fademikkov_: Is it still poluting the Extras menu?18:55
X-Fademikkov_: Or was that another app I recall..18:55
qwerty12_X-Chat probably :)18:56
mikkov_it shouldn't be18:56
mikkov_(after all my e-mail is in the Maintainer:)18:56
X-FadeNo there was this app that installed 60 icons in the menu orso.18:57
mikkov_was it some compilation of small games?18:57
X-Fademikkov_: Yeah..18:57
mikkov_that I remember, but haven't seen it since OS200718:57
X-FadeBut it was a long time ago..18:57
qwerty12_X-Fade, simon tatham's puzzles! :P :-)18:58
X-FadeI'm still thinking of a good way to select pearls by the community..18:58
qwerty12_Or was that in extras :/18:58
mikkov_anyway aisleriot is fully hildonized by upstream/gnomegames maintainers18:59
X-Fademikkov_: Yeah, it looks really nice.18:59
X-FadeAnd indeed it is a good candidate.19:00
X-FadeAnybody object?19:00
Stskeepsany solitaire like things are a basic item for mobile/pda/tablet things :P19:01
qwerty12_X-Fade, btw, can autobuilder only build for an certain arch? I'm just curious after seeing some packages built for i38619:01
mikkov_X-Fade: well this method seems to work pretty fine ;)19:01
qwerty12_s/i386/i386 only/19:01
infobotqwerty12_ meant: X-Fade, btw, can autobuilder only build for an certain arch? I'm just curious after seeing some packages built for i386 only19:01
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mikkov_maybe I should update the screenshot for aisleriot..19:02
X-Fadeqwerty12_: Yeah, you can select that.19:02
X-Fadeqwerty12_: Somewhere in the debian files.19:02
qwerty12_X-Fade, ah, I see. Thanks!19:02
X-Fademikkov_: Well, that might help ;)19:02
X-Fademikkov_: I'm not sure if this process is fair, but then again.. selection has been slow lately :)19:03
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qwerty12_X-Fade, psst, do you take bribes?19:03
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X-Fademikkov_: But yeah, a nice OS2008 with hildon status bar is better..19:04
X-Fadeqwerty12_: Now you have spoilt it :) Never post that on a public channel :D19:04
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mikkov_X-Fade: need to play freecell a bit ;)19:04
qwerty12_X-Fade, Damn! I apologise deeply :D19:04
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X-FadeIt would be nice if we could have a new pearl every week.19:06
mikkov_autorotate the pearls list?19:07
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X-Fademikkov_: I'm sure there are more application that are good candidates.19:07
mikkov_rotate as a backup ;)19:07
mikkov_leafpad is another app which is fully hildonized & works very well for what it is made for19:08
Stskeepsxournal :P19:10
mikkov_if it is in pearls list it should be removed until there is installable version in diablo extras19:11
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dnearyI think leafpad & xournal are both already pearls19:15
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RST38hwhy not mention maemopad+?19:20
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JaffaEvery "normal" app shouldn't be a pearl. It should be reserved for ones which really stand out.19:26
JaffaAnd there's a set of criteria somewhere19:27
qwerty12_Forget criteria, it's all about the €€€ :)19:27
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X-FadeJaffa: Probably this one?
JaffaX-Fade: that's it19:30
* RST38h suggests scrapping the Pearls category altogether and just judging from the number of downloads19:30
wazdWebKit engine is definitely a Pearl)19:30
RST38hOtherwise you will be forever arguing about what a pearl is19:30
Jaffawazd: it will be - needs to get there first19:30
mikkov_funny that the word "pearl" isn't mentioned on that page19:31
qwerty12_WebKit engine isn't listed on the catalogue19:31
RST38hnot yet19:31
JaffaRST38h: Except for the past X months, there's been no argument about whether A or B are pearls - because there have been very few suggestions19:31
JaffaeCoach isn't listed there. So there's obviously not an exact overlap19:32
RST38hIt needs time :)19:32
RST38hBut you can solve this with an ITT voting19:32
RST38hLet people vote what gets to be a pearl19:33
wazdI wonder if a webpage is the heaviest thing to scroll kinetically19:33
RST38hwazd: Depends on whether you need to render it19:33
X-Fadewazd: A page full off videos ;)19:33
RST38hMy guess is that it is rendered if not statically, then at least in rather big chunks19:33
wazdAnd flashing flash :)19:33
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JaffaRST38h: already has a voting system, why overcomplicate things? And it's not like there's an overburden of pearls which need whittling down.19:34
wazdSo current hardware can handle kinetic scrolling in all applications theoretically19:35
X-Fadewazd: Worked fine for mauku.19:35
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Jaffawazd: the main reason it's not implemented is specification & development, I suspect.19:35
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Jaffai.e. (and these are rhetorical questions) how do you handle multiple selection & drag to scroll? is it implemented at the GtkScrollView layer or a new widget? What scrollbars are shown? etc.19:36
RST38hJaffa: Nobody uses that voting system19:36
RST38hJaffa: So, a one time poll at itt would probably help19:36
Jaffawazd: Hildon Gtk is still very close to upstream, so it's not surprising it's taken to Fremantle to get it sorted.19:37
X-FadeRST38h: That has already been done. When Quim asked for remarkable projects..19:37
Stslaptopwazd: i think kinetic fremantle widgets are already there and doesn't use acceleration19:37
Stslaptopbut then again 300mhz extra might do a difference19:37
X-FadeStslaptop: And a graphics bus that can handle it ;)19:38
JaffaRST38h: I think the word "nobody" is, again, a little too specific (and wrong). But if you want to draw attention to the fact that it's the community who select the pearls, and help rally people round discussing what makes a good pearl and getting more people involved in the selection (and, hopefully, encouraging app authors to go that extra mile), by all means - create a poll :-)19:38
StslaptopX-Fade: mmm.19:38
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Stslaptopthen again, we have stuff like liqbase..19:38
RST38hSts: stuff like web page rendering is gated by memory bandwidth19:39
Stslaptopyeah, but i wasn't talking of web page rendering19:39
Stslaptopi meant in other apps :)19:39
RST38hSts: if it is video then yes, by all means19:39
RST38hSts: Java, emulators, web browsing, word processing are all mainly gated by memory performance though19:40
* Stslaptop wonders why typical open source bastions of news sites didn't pick up on OLPC firing half its staff19:41
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Stslaptopor i managed to miss it totally, since i first read it on my local newspapers19:41
RST38hOLPC is mostly off the radars now19:42
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RST38hThey went off when they decided to switch to Windows. Open source community does not excuse such actions =)19:42
Stslaptoplcuk: now i have the answer for your 1000 solar powered omap boards. charity.19:42
Stslaptopor helping develop the "poor" countries19:43
Stslaptophelping to establish infrastructure :P19:44
RST38htoo expensive19:44
RST38hdoes not run Office.19:44
StslaptopRST38h: it was a question on "what would you do with 1000 solar powered omap boards"19:44
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Stslaptopso, what would you do with 1000 solar powered omap boards, RST38h?19:46
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Stskeepsevening gnuton19:48
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gnutonhei Stskeeps19:48
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RST38hSts: I would place them in a dot matrix formation in some desert and make them flash subliminal messages to airline pilots19:54
Stskeepsgnuton: so where do you work now? since you moved to helsinki of all places :) (just pondered since you said 'hei' :P)19:54
StskeepsRST38h: heh heh19:54
RST38hSts: 1000 dots is enough for a 28x5x7 display, the "KILL ALL PEOPLE" and "DONT LET THEM TAKE YOU ALIVE" messages will fit perfectly19:55
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Stskeepsi always wondered why some of the asian countries take pride in those huge gatherings where they show certain logos etc..19:56
gnutonStskeeps: I work in Helsinki19:56
Stskeepsgnuton: yeah, i meant more specifically as what company :)19:57
RST38hSkype kinda out for Android but not really19:57
gnutoneh he :D19:57
StskeepsRST38h: and you just explained that quite well (the asian countries)19:57
RST38hI guess Google did not let them use native API :)19:57
Stskeepsi mostly have my doubts on google because it's Yet Another API19:57
RST38hSts: Don't European artsy types like the same? =)19:57
StskeepsRST38h: soccer people and hippies.. maybe19:58
RST38hYes, it is a TYPICAL yet another API :)19:58
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RST38hIt has got all the usual features: Java, rigid framework, a bunch of new abstractions for the old stuff everybody got used to19:59
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Stskeepsthen again i'm not sure what the alternative would be20:00
Stskeepscos j2me is hell on earth20:00
RST38hSts: S60, WinMobile20:00
RST38hMaemo :)20:00
Stskeepsyeah, but could you see google doing those? :P20:00
RST38hGoogle does these already20:00
RST38hBoth Google Maps and Google Mail are available as native S60 apps20:01
Stskeepsas in, pushing a new mobile OS on someone else's work20:01
Stskeepsmaemo, maybe, but there seem to have been this misunderstanding amongst people it is very hard to seperate the UI from maemo20:01
Stskeepsi'm still surprised at how much is actually public :P20:01
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Stskeepsevening fauxmigh120:02
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K3Hello everybody !20:05
K3what do you think of that : ?20:05
RST38hSts: Well, as far as Android is concerned, I would expect something with a clean native C++ Api20:05
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RST38hSts: Too bad that they let some busybody design it instead20:05
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StskeepsKhertan_n810_9: i thought it might be wrong forum to ask for it - discussing with the webkit guy @ iTT might do a lot better to the cause20:06
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JaffaK3: Someone was asking about pronvit's WebKit-eal containing HTML5 & local storage features. It's currently got them compiled out.20:07
RST38hK3: Methinks it is not possible unless there is a lightweight environment for running such apps. Which, considering JS/CSS requirements, is kinda difficult to do20:07
RST38hNot to say that it can't be done though20:07
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Khertan_n810_9i m the guy wh ask on itt :)20:07
wazdOmg, that Android tablet is without BT20:07
wazdepic fail20:08
Khertan_n810_9RST38h > the device i target is Palm WebOS, iPhone and Maemo20:08
JaffaKhertan_n810_9: course you were; apologies20:08
Khertan_n810_9so for maemo this seems to be near20:08
RST38hKhertan: WebOS remains to be seen (but they claim it works for them)20:09
Khertan_n810_9but the other one use webkit20:09
RST38hKhertan: iPhone does not provide it at the moment and given that they do not let you run resident stuff, it may not be possible20:09
Khertan_n810_9RST38h yep it use webkit with html5 openDatabse api20:09
RST38hKhertan: Maemo - should be possible but not sure if you can make it perform well20:09
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Khertan_n810_9RST38h: are you sure ? the feature is enabled ?20:10
Khertan_n810_9i will try with the iphone of someone20:10
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Khertan_n810_9RST38h yep performances could be a problem20:10
RST38hKhertan: I am not sure about iPhone at all. It just seems to violate Apple's terms20:11
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Khertan_n810_9jaffa: you re welcome, this was the nick which nconfuse you :)20:11
Khertan_n810_9rst38h: it doesn't need to be resident20:12
Khertan_n810_9ping ?20:12
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RST38hKhertan: but doesn't it need some backend that stays in memory so that your js apps can connect to it?20:13
RST38hLike Google gears?20:13
Khertan_n810_9rst38h: storing the js and html locally fix the resident problem20:14
Stskeepsheh, researchers found out that the vikings made pirate copies of iran-made swords20:14
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Stskeepsi always wondered where thepiratebay mentality came from..20:14
Khertan_n810_9i ve made some test on my pc with an embedded webkit wigdet in a gtk windows and open a local html file and it s work20:15
Khertan_n810_9pygtk is already slow on my nit so i m afraid that it will be worse20:16
alteregoMy beagle board just got shipped :)20:16
alteregoAnd I just bought a HDTV :)20:17
ThatOneGuyanyone know what the trick is to building kernel modules for 770 with 2007he?20:17
RST38hSts: I wonder if Ahmadi-not-a-jew can sue them in the European court over this =)20:17
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* Khertan_n810_9 think he should create a report in bugtracker about the sd card temp problem20:17
StskeepsThatOneGuy: scratchbox20:18
StskeepsKhertan_n810_9: what does the packing for your SD card say? :P20:18
RST38hKhertan: So, every js app gets a local file where it stores its state?20:18
Stskeepsand was it the internal or the external dying?20:18
ThatOneGuywell yes, I know that lol20:18
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ThatOneGuyI thought I had it right, but insmod saysInvalid format20:19
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Khertan_n810_9RST38h: html5 provide an openDatabase method which enable you to create a local sqlite database20:19
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Khertan_n810_9with javascript and a browser engine which support it you could make apps20:20
Khertan_n810_9which doesn t need to connect to a server20:20
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Khertan_n810_9html5 is more applications than document language20:21
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Khertan_n810_9someone know how to change the user agent of webkit on maemo ?20:22
RST38hKhertan: implement a mail client, a calendar, and an address book for maemo using that20:22
RST38hKhertan: + an rss reader =)20:22
Xamuskhi, I just saw in some news that Nokia stopped producing the N810. Is that true or did it just stop producing the WiMax edition?20:22
StskeepsXamusk: they are pulling back from stores the N810WE, not N810, as far as i know20:23
Khertan_n810_9RST38h this is exactly what i think :)20:23
RST38hThey stopped producing WiMax ed20:24
EgSKhertan: using Qt?20:24
RST38hAs to the original N810, we do not know20:24
EgSKhertan: if so, I'd say override QString QWebPage::userAgentForUrl ( const QUrl & url ) const   [virtual protected]20:24
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XamuskStskeeps, ok, I just thought the newspost fishy, since it starts by saying of the WiMax and then says that nokia is cancelling the N810 production, but then says it's a cellphone20:24
RST38hthe poster apparently does not know what he is talking about20:25
Khertan_n810_9Which is the best place to put a bug related to n810 hardware ? in bugzilla ?20:25
StskeepsXamusk: then again if there's more than enough produced, it'd make sense to halt production until there's more demand :)20:25
Khertan_n810_9egs: ? where too ?20:25
XamuskI hope it releases the N900 soon to catch some of the emerging MID market20:26
Stskeepsnokia's honestly way ahead of those.. i mean, with that battery life20:26
Khertan_n810_9soon like 7 or 8 months ...20:26
lcukMIDs are too big for all uses, but are more practical than a full laptop20:26
Stskeepsestablished designs, etc20:26
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EgSKhertan: are you writing an app yourself?20:27
lcuki cant ever see myself holding up a 9" laptop to use as a camera20:27
RST38hNot all MIDs are equal...20:27
RST38hThere are smallish ones20:27
lcukhiya Khertan :)20:27
Khertan_n810_9egs: nope :) ... hum not an app that include webkit ... at this time just try to use it as default rowser20:27
Khertan_n810_9and create a js apps :)20:28
Khertan_n810_9Hi lcuk20:28
lcukwebkit browser looks sweet doesnt it :)20:28
Khertan_n810_9not for me i got blank page as my phone isp block http request that doesn t have an autorized user agent20:29
Khertan_n810_9but i like it in professional product :)20:29
EgSKhertan: oh I see... no clue then :)20:29
lcukKhertan_n810, but that blank page renders faster than anything and scrolls well ;)20:30
EgSthat webkitbrowser for Qt? is that allready in the repo? (stable or dev)20:30
Khertan_n810_9Hum ... i don t see anything related to hardware in bugzilla ...20:30
EgSs/for Qt/for maemo/20:30
lcukwell, thats not the one hes talking about20:30
infobotEgS meant: that webkitbrowser for maemo? is that allready in the repo? (stable or dev)20:30
Khertan_n810_9qt ... pfff20:30
Khertan_n810_9not in repository but in its garage page20:31
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EgScool, always wanted to test a webkit based browser on the n81020:31
Khertan_n810_9where i can complain to nokia about hardware bug ?20:32
lcukwhats up with it?20:32
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Khertan_n810_9lcuk: first post20:33
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lcukis that a problem of NIT or of your card?20:34
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StskeepsKhertan_n810_9: there should be a temperature range somewhere in the manual probably20:34
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Khertan_n810_9seems to be nit ... as the card work in an other device20:35
lcuki would personally complain to GOD, -18 is outside MY operating temperature20:35
lcukwhen it warmed up?20:35
Khertan_n810_9i work in my  car audio system at -2020:35
lcukwas the filesystem corrupted or just the file?20:37
StskeepsKhertan_n810_9: and some SD cards cannot take that low operating temperatures it seems20:37
lcukcos i wouldv thought if it was bad filesystem it wouldnt magically fix itself20:37
* Stskeeps takes time to actually read the tablet manual..20:38
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Khertan_n810_9ping ?20:42
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: so how did it go with the kernel?20:43
Khertan_n810_9yep but warning user that temp is too low could be a good thing20:43
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lcuki wouldv thought the user would know its too cold, when your testes rise back into your body you should take that as your warning20:44
Khertan_n810_9instead of let s user crashed is precious unsaved source file20:44
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StskeepsKhertan_n810_9: are you talking of internal SD card, or an external one?20:45
lcukKhertan, overriding a daily backup without warning is just as bad20:45
Khertan_n810_9when there is no wind ... i don t see difference between -5 and -2020:45
Khertan_n810_9external one20:45
Stskeepsok, so it's the external cards fault probably20:45
Khertan_n810_9lcuk: yep20:45
Stskeepsand those don't have temperature measure inside them :P20:45
Stskeeps(i believe)20:45
lcuki still dont see how yow it was only the file itself that was corrupt and not the filesystem20:46
Khertan_n810_9stskeeps nope the card work in other device at lower temp20:46
lcukdid you modify the file when you were out and about, or did it just randomly corrupt itself whilst walking without touching it or modifying it20:46
sistois there an eclipse for maemo?20:46
lcukie, can you be sure it was temp that corrupted it20:47
Stskeepssisto: you mean for developing for maemo, or on the tablet20:47
sistoon the tablet 8)20:47
Stskeepsnot sure you'd want to :P20:47
lcuksisto, if you hold up the nokia to the sun im sure it will cause an eclipse20:47
sistolcuk: lol20:47
lcuksisto, not really though, eclipse is java isnt it?20:47
lcukthen no20:48
sistothere's no jre for arm?20:48
sistoor jdk20:48
lcukjava support isnt that great and anyway, its a mammoth program20:48
Stskeepssisto: you can get pretty far with vim though .. :>20:48
lcukwhy ojn earth would you want such a monster in there anyway?20:48
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sistoi could program java with vim... but is there a jdk for maemo for compiling?20:49
lcuksisto, and dont think im just dismissing you - i do *all* dev directly on tablet using gcc, khertan does dev on tablet with a highlighting multi language mini ide20:49
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* lcuk needs liqed working - now i have multi colored fonts maybe i can...20:49
sistoi don't really need it... i'm just checking whether it can be done 8)20:50
Stskeepssisto: i'd look at python and C instead though20:50
Stskeepsand jdk doesnt matter if its on-tablet or through ssh on a linux place other places :)20:50
lcukof course it can be done, you can install dosbox, load up win 95, install vmware load an image of linux and then run eclipse iwthin that20:50
lcukbut its not gonna be much of a decent workflow20:51
sistosounds fun 8)20:51
Stskeepssisto: maybe it's better if you explain what you'd like to do specifically?20:51
sistoi don't really need it... i'm just checking whether it can be done20:51
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sistojust for the fun of it20:52
Stskeepsanything is possible, just more or less slowly20:52
lcukStskeeps, is there a jvm for mer?20:52
Stskeepslcuk: i actually think so20:52
lcuk:) good20:52
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lcukobviously doesnt matter to me :P20:53
sistoi know one thing would be usefull for me that runs on java20:53
sistoi have a swing app20:54
sistowhich i would like to run on the tablet if possible20:54
Stskeepsthere's no promise it will run smoothly20:54
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Stskeepsit is a 400mhz box afterall20:54
Stskeepswithout a good JIT, i thin20:54
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sistocacao is a jvm?20:55
sistothe app won't run though20:56
sistoit uses native libraries20:57
Stskeepswell then it won't run then :P20:57
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Stskeepswhat native libraries?20:57
sistolet me check20:57
sistothis is the app
sistolet me check what are the libraries20:58
Stskeepsyou can really get similar of those applications easily on tablet..20:58
Stskeepsor fairly easy to make20:58
lcuksisto, yeah, that needs windows xp on the tablet20:58
lcukgonna be tough20:59
sistothere's a java version20:59
Stskeepsand isn't it kinda against the java philosophy to demand native libraries? :P20:59
lcuki demand native java20:59
lcukwith sugar and milk20:59
Stskeepsgood idea20:59
RST38hSts: happens all the time21:00
Stskeepsyeah, i know21:00
Stskeepsi have been coding java applications at some point too :P21:00
Stskeepsnot a fan21:00
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, pong?21:01
sistohere are the libraries that come with it: commons-logging.jar libswt-pi-gtk-3232.so21:02
sistothe .so extension makes it sound like a native library to me21:03
Stskeepssisto: ah, just swt21:03
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Stskeepssisto: honestly, i have no clue if it would run, but, for a password safe, i'm sure there's alternatives.21:03
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sistofor sure... i'll probably end up migrating to an alternative :)21:03
sistoi haven't purchased my n810 yet though, i'm just investigating ahead of time21:04
Stskeepsbesides the fact it's "not x86", it is a very versatile device.21:05
Stskeepscan run quite a lot of different things, maemo, ubuntu, etc21:05
sistois there a benefit in changing to debian / ubuntu / android etc?21:06
Stskeepsdepends for what you want to use it for21:06
Stskeepssome things are easier in ubuntu, and some things are more power saving in maemo, etc21:06
Stskeepsthere's always pros and cons21:06
Stskeepsand you can switch between the OS'es, multiboot21:07
sistomy main uses will probably be pda stuff, game device, spreadsheet, text  editor/notes21:07
sistoi probably can do it all on maemo21:07
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StskeepsPIM is 'interesting' but that's that :P21:08
sistoare the other OSs compatible with touch input and the keyboard?21:08
Stskeepsyeah, mostly, i think :P21:09
* Stskeeps only has a n800 and he can use them.. :P21:09
sistoi  guess they must have been made specially for the device21:09
Stskeepsnot really21:09
lcukyeah, linux was designed with the n8x0 series in mind21:09
lcuklinus was such a visionary21:09
sistolcuk: sure that's exactly what i meant lol21:09
Stskeepsit's typically the distro for the processor with minimal tablet changes21:10
lcuksisto, as long as there are valid drivers for the hardware its usable, since the touch interface is pretty generic thats a fairly easy one, whether or not the OS you choose uses that input as well as maemo is another matter21:11
GeneralAntillesKhertan, I'm sorry it sucks so much where you're using your tablet. :P21:11
sistobut does ubuntu use the full desktop on the n810? cause that uses 1 gb of ram on my desktop pc21:11
Stskeepssisto: hehe, which is why some of us work on Mer :)21:12
Stskeepswhich is ubuntu with the maemo platform on top21:12
sistoMer = maemo?21:12
infobotrumour has it, mer is and
lcuksisto, maemo has been specifically written to date for the nokia tablets, mer is a rebuild of ubuntu (by stskeeps and co..) which is sane and logical and having its pieces carefully considered21:13
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Stskeepscarefully? :P21:13
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* Stskeeps pokes his shot class for another refill21:13
lcukvery carefully :)21:13
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* lcuk raises shot glass21:13
lcukdamn you werent toasting21:14
* lcuk fills up ur glass21:14
lcukget khertan to get you some ice21:14
sistohas anyone tried pairing their n8x0 device with a 3g phone to use dialup internet?21:14
lcukyeah lots do21:14
bstocksisto: yeah it's really common21:14
sistono i meant here in the chat room21:15
lcukyeah, lots do21:15
Stskeepssisto: i do that daily21:15
Stskeepsthe OS has built in support for tethering21:15
Stskeepsand does it quite well21:15
bstockusually just select your carrier, pair your phone, and you're set21:15
sistoStskeeps: but doesn't it eat your battery like a bitch?21:15
bstocknot too bad, faster then normal sure21:15
GeneralAntillessisto, on the phone21:15
lcuksisto, bluetooth is light on the battery21:15
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GeneralAntillesNot really much more than WiFi on the tablet.21:15
sistook :)21:15
lcuklighter than wifi i think21:16
sistosounds very usefull21:16
lcukGeneralAntilles, bluetooth is heavier than wifi?21:16
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, in-use I get worse battery life tethering to Bluetooth than with WiFi21:16
GeneralAntillesThat's not to say that it wouldn't be a factor of my phone or use-case.21:17
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, the council mail is already setup ?21:17
sistomost people leave bluetooth on all the time on their phones and it doesn't eat too much battery21:17
GeneralAntillesVDVsx, yes.21:17
lcukyeah GeneralAntilles21:17
lcuksisto, leaving it on and actively using it are 2 different things21:17
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, is ?21:17
GeneralAntillesVDVsx, yes.21:17
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, thanks21:17
lcuki can idle my car for about a fortnight, but if i drive down the motorway it lasts a few hours21:18
lcukis that council mailing list public?21:18
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, it forwards to the Council member's addresses, so, no.21:18
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mrweaselhello everybody. i have a short question: does anybody know how to change the window manager of deblet? currently i'm running xfce but would like to try lxde, but can't find the proper startup script... :/21:20
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* GeneralAntilles hadn't realized WebOS was Linux-based.21:21
GeneralAntillesCould they have thought up a worse name?21:21
Stskeepsmrweasel: is gdm installed?21:22
RST38hNOS for example21:23
mrweaselno, don't think so21:23
RST38hor POS21:23
mrweaselon startup it switches directly from the console to xfce21:23
RST38hor even XOS, based on the apparent heritage21:23
RST38hmrweasel: grep xfce ~/.*21:24
Stskeepshmm, is bc4fw.bin a 770 only thing?21:26
mrweaselRST38h: nothing but entries from .xsession-errors21:27
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RST38hall righty. do the same in /etc21:28
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mrweaselalso nothing, should i do recursive ?21:29
RST38hof course21:29
Stskeepsmrweasel: it kinda wonders me you have XFCE, because i haven't had that version for quite a while..21:30
RST38hit should be in .xinitrc or .startxrc21:30
Stskeepssure it's deblet and not beta3?21:30
RST38heven with gdm, I guess...21:30
mrweaselits not in .xinitrc because i searched all of that files...21:31
* RST38h is once again amazed how helpless most Linux forums are =(21:31
RST38hmrweasel: what is in your .xinitrc? Could you paste it to pastebin?21:31
mrweaselStskeeps: I think so, I also had beta3 before21:32
mrweaselinstalled it from
mrweaselbut that has been in october or so21:32
Stskeepsyeah, long ago :P21:33
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mrweaselI've read all the forum threads.. found something like /usr/bin/xpice but that does not exist, and there is only a startup script that runs startx21:34
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RST38hmrweasel: there is also .xsession to check21:35
mrweaselbut the only entry in xinitrc in /etc/X11/xinitrc is ./etc/X11/Xsession21:35
RST38hAha, so it basicalle default to Xsession21:35
RST38hWhat is in Xsession?21:35
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mrweaselyes seems to be defaults.. does some things then initializes some variables with paths and files.. but i've also checked all of these21:37
mrweaselno xfce entry there21:38
RST38hAnything else in /etc/X11 or /etc/gdm ?21:38
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mrweasel/etc/gdm does not exist, and in /etc/X11 there are some additional folders ./xinit ./Xresources ./Xsession.d ./xkb ./fonts ./app-defaults21:40
mrweaselbut i've looked there already... no luck21:41
mrweaselStskeeps: what changed since october ?21:41
mrweaselis it using lxde by default now ?21:42
Stskeepsbut i'm not even sure it bootstraps :P21:42
mrweaseland gdm too ?21:43
Stskeepsthink so21:43
Stskeepswe're working on Mer these days so :P21:43
StskeepsGAN800: ping?21:43
mrweaseli found lxde for my desktop pc last week and was quite amazed, so i thought i could simply try it on the tablet.. not that easy as i've thought21:44
mrweaselit bugs me that i can't even find the script that chooses xfce to be the wm21:44
Stskeepsrc.local or update-alternatives, possibly21:45
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mrweaselit's not rc.local, but whats update-alternatives?21:45
Stskeepsmrweasel: there's also an ubuntu guide on iTT21:45
Stskeepslxde should be easy based on that21:45
StskeepsGAN800: (First request)21:45
mrweaseli've seen that, but i don't consider ubuntu a good idea on the tablet.. =)21:46
Stskeepsmrweasel: just as easy and good as debian, really21:46
mrweaselyes easy21:46
mrweaselbut fast?21:46
Stskeepsits even more optimized for these, so21:46
mrweaselthis ubuntu thing is quite new, isn't it ?21:47
Stskeepsyeah, but based on the Mer experiences, so21:47
mrweaseli've read a lot of that tablet stuff since i got it in october.. it's amazing that these people i always read about really "exist" here on irc21:48
mrweaselStskeeps: so you don't have any clue where to find that xfce startup thing ?21:50
Stskeepsmrweasel: can you grep for a 'startx' in /etc/init.d/* ?21:50
mrweaseli remember that there is a ./x-session that does it21:51
Stskeepsyeah, ok, so, apt-get away xfce (purge the packages) and apt-get install lxde21:51
Stskeepsi believe21:51
mrweasel"su - -c "startx -- $XSERVERARGS" $USERNAME &21:52
mrweaselbut how does startx know which wm to choose ?21:52
Stskeeps /etc/alternatives i think21:52
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StskeepsGAN800: and it's generally just if you think that's a fair start to propose to tread the waters21:52
Stskeepsas we will not get around this in any kind of community edition21:52
mrweaselStskeeps: yeah! that's it ! great thank you!21:52
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mrweaselanother thing: when i do "apt-get install lxde" it also pulls xserver-xephyr.. i guess i don't need that?21:54
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Stskeepsthere's a lxde-core or something..21:54
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mrweaselokay, got it.. i'll give it a try, hope it works...21:57
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* Stskeeps yawns22:13
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lcuk\o/ yesss i fixed a long standing bug22:18
GeneralAntillesYou gave it a chair?22:19
lcukits just tiny minor thing but its important it works :)22:20
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sistowhich bug?22:20
lcukits just in my app :)  release will be "soon"22:21
sistowhat does it do?22:21
sistoi mean... it's fine if it doesn't do anything22:22
lcuklots of pretty stuff :) and its a memory aid22:22
sistono one said it has to22:22
lcukand a book reader22:22
mrweaseland i hope it will be also a calendar soon? i'm running without a calendar since new year... =)22:23
lcukmrweasel, :)22:23
sistoit does all sorts of things :)22:24
lcukbut im not a calendar man, i might be able to make a UI for one which "works" but whoever could I find that knows how calendar api works?22:24
lcukyes sisto, i have an idea for how a UI should work, it seems to sit nicely on the tablets22:25
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mrweaseli'm good with dates above the notes in graffiti view or something like that.. could also write a date on 30 new sketches for the next month .. hmm =)22:26
mrweaseloh wait.. next month is feburary.. then 28 will be fine :)22:26
sistofebruary 30th lol22:27
lcukmrweasel, dont worry about that (cal usually has 35 boxes..) there will be a decent example included for someone to have a go at building from22:27
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mrweaseli like the way tablet applications get developed22:28
sistoi have started to use google calendar22:28
sistofor my reminders22:28
sistoi like the fact that it emails me22:28
lcukkhertan is writing a nice calendar app, he keeps moaning about lack of ui22:28
sistobecause i can leave the unread message in my inbox until i can attend to it22:28
sistoi guess that is my gripe with device calendars... once u close it it's gone22:29
sistoyou can make the notification stick around22:29
sisto*you can't22:29
lcukwhy not?22:30
sistobecause i have an imate jam and that's how it works... i haven't tried other devices22:30
lcukif it was a desktop applet or had a notification icon its available all the time22:30
sistobut once i click on it it's gone22:30
lcukso if you accidentally click on something it vanishes forever?22:31
sistothis is how it goes22:31
sistoi set up the appointment22:31
sistothe date comes and a notification pops up22:31
sistoi click on it22:31
sistothe notification is gone22:31
sistobut the appointment stays on the calendar22:31
sistobut donesn't notify me again22:32
sistoi would like the notification to stay on the tray area22:32
lcuktechnically its done its job22:32
mrweaselif everything i accidentially click on would vanish forever... omg ;)22:32
lcuki thought you meant the cal entry had gone22:32
sistobut that's why i use google calendar22:32
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sistobecause it sends me an email22:32
sistoand the email stays on the inbox till i erase it22:32
lcuklol mrweasel you would be a eunuch soon then22:33
sistoi can read it again and i will see it every time i read my email22:33
lcukbut you wont know if you missed the event22:33
sistoi guess i have different needs :)22:33
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sistoIn my opinion the notification should have two buttons... A dismiss button would close the notification. An ok button will make it stick around. I can always click on dismiss later if I'm done with it.22:36
lcukomg , my n810 is making noises at me22:36
lcukor accidentally22:36
mrweaseldid you "accidentally" start that tricorder app ?22:36
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lcukheh no, i am just playing with esound library (same thing boxar (from jagernot) uses)22:37
sistobut if it happens accidentally i would know cause i'm right there... i just don't want to accidentally forget about the notification22:37
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: so, any comments or can i put another post out in the thread on community firmware images, pointing to it, so quim&co can start brewing on it?22:37
sistothe problem is I usually just close the notification and immediately forget about it22:38
sistothat's how bad my memory is22:38
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, looks good to me.22:38
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: thanks :)22:38
GeneralAntillesThough it should be "an initfs"22:38
Stskeepsyeah, one of those things my english teacher never taught me correctly.. :P22:38
lcuksisto, my short term memory is aweful :) liqbase has given it back to me22:39
sistothat makes me remember what happened to me just yesterday22:39
sistoi lost my sunglasses because of my short term memory22:40
sistoi layed them down on the bus seat22:40
sistoand when I left I completely forgot about them22:40
lcukmight not be best idea to get expensive handheld technology22:40
lcukor get a lanyard22:40
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sistogood idea22:41
lcukwould be nice to have a pair of apps on both phone and tablet and when either loses bluetooth with the other it cries like a baby22:41
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mrweaselever sat in front of a gdm login screen, not being able to login because you can't type all the characters contained in your password? :/22:42
lcuknot really, i'd end up taking the tablet but i'll leave the kids on the bus22:42
housetierdamn we have to send nokia an overdue notice :\22:42
housetiernot very cool, but we need the money desperately22:43
GeneralAntilleshousetier, Nokia seems to be pretty bad at paying in a reasonable amount of time. :/22:43
lcuk:( housetier22:43
housetierwe know that now as well ;\22:43
lcuki gather you have been in contact with the contacts who arranged the summit22:44
housetieryes, I kept reminding as I was being reminded by our cash master22:44
sistowhat's all this money talk22:45
housetiersisto, c-base hosted the maemo-summit last year22:45
sistoand nokia pays for it?22:45
housetierit was a great event, really really good. but so far nokia has only paid an advance of 30%22:46
housetierand since c-base is notoriously short on funds this really hurts us22:46
housetiernontheless I hope we can host the next summit as well :)22:46
housetierit just went so well22:47
mrweaselStskeeps: lxde now works like a charm, thanks again22:48
Stskeepsmrweasel: always22:48
Stskeepsmrweasel: but beware i'm not continuing to work on deblet22:48
Stskeepswhich means you should probably mirror the repository for yourself for future reference in case i loose it at some point :P22:49
mrweaselisn't everything i need by now coming directly from the debian repros ?22:49
sistolunch looks good
mrweaselif i accidentally trash that system i'm surely moving to some more recent.. but i like that debian ... if only to impress my friends =)22:50
mrweaseland i'm using it as the system for that chroot thing instead of easy debian also....22:50
Stskeepsmrweasel: depends if you have old or new installer, hmm..22:51
Stskeepscan you check if you have in your sources list?22:51
Stskeepsah, old version22:51
Stskeepswhere the packages are in your actual setup22:51
Stskeepsand no, not all of it is from debian repos, if so, it would have been debian, not deblet ;)22:52
mrweaselyes of course, but everything i sould eventually need to install now22:52
mrweaselso as long as i'm not reinstalling everything will be fine22:55
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giridhariAnyone know where to find hildon-libs0?22:59
Stskeepsnot entirely sure, but isn't that just libhildon?22:59
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GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, get provint to push to Extras-devel.23:00
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: <- am i missing anything in this list?23:00
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, I'm sure he doesn't need me to convince him...23:01
giridharipan needs hildon-libs023:01
Stskeepssure you didn't get one for gregale or something, giridhari ?23:01
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, well, make sure he uses Maemo-Display-Name and a purty icon. :P23:01
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giridharino pan is for chinook, I run diablo, maemo-hackers had hildon-libs0 in mistral I read but now it is missing23:03
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, I assume you're using 2.6.21 so why do you want stlc45xx-cal?23:04
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: for the purpose we don't want to use 2.6.21 anymore we might as well ask early23:10
Stskeepsif they allow us to distribute wlan-cal, it'd be idiotic not to be able to distribute stlc45xx-cal too ..23:10
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Stskeepsright, post sent off23:12
Stskeepslet's see what happens :)23:13
RST38hHehe, iPhone wannabe:
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RST38h~curse Freescale for lying about its chip stability23:19
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, Freescale for lying about its chip stability !23:19
GeneralAntillesinfobot's curses suck23:19
qwerty12_N800I wonder if we can teach it our own...23:20
Stskeepsinfobot: ~curse?23:21
GeneralAntilles~help curse23:21
Stskeepsinfobot: what is ~curse?23:21
infobotStskeeps: what are you talking about?23:21
qwerty12_N800infobot, help curse23:22
RST38hThe camels curse has been borrowed from Angband.23:22
qwerty12_N800infobot, speak mother fucker23:22
sistothat palm looks nice23:23
* sisto is done at work... leaving now23:24
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* Stskeeps ponders if can be converted into a wallpaper or something like that.23:24
RST38hBus error. Segmentation fault. Segmentation fault. Kernel panic.23:24
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StskeepsRST38h: "keel over and die"? :P23:25
RST38hI think it wants to tell me something.23:25
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, looking at symbian signed I find that poster full of hypocrisy...23:25
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: yeah, of course23:26
suihkulokkiRST38h: "don't youch me you evil competitor!" :P23:26
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: but for tablets it makes sense23:26
* b-man is now installing ubuntu on his win98 computer...23:26
RST38hsuihkulokki: I am not its competitor, I am its master23:26
RST38hAnd nothing tells it so as raising its core voltage...23:26
Stskeepsb-man: hehe, what CPU?23:27
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b-manintel pentium 323:27
Stskeepsmm, could probably have ran xp though :)23:27
b-manwith 128mb of ram :P23:27
Stskeepsyeah, ok.23:27
Stskeepsb-man: can it boot from usb?23:28
* qwerty12_N800 ran xp on a p3 with 128mb ram23:28
b-mani'm using a live cd i burned23:28
b-maninstaller is sllllow.... :p23:29
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b-mani just hope ubuntu-desktop is not too horibly slow, perhaps i shuld use swap :)23:30
Stskeepsthere's always xubuntu23:31
b-manyah ;)23:31
lcukif you have a casio watch you could try to rig up something to use the ram in there23:31
* b-man gos and checks progress with installer23:31
b-mani'll be back, i need to help shovel some snow (were haveing a huge snowstorm atm)23:33
lcukshovelling snow :: faster than watching linux install23:35
lcukheh @ koos on the mailing list, im sure he thinks khertan is a n00b23:36
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lcukon the tablet, if the browserd is running at 183M thats a little high and suggests a leak doesnt it23:54
lcukwith only one page open currently23:55
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