IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2009-01-08

TrueJournalsThat'd be a good one, actually...00:00
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GeneralAntillesEither way, I agree. Stskeeps, just fuck off. :P00:00
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i'm inclined to think "just restarting" mce isn't fatal though00:02
* RST38h has doubts about this00:03
RST38hit is one thing to reread config file, and completely another to kill and restart the whole thing00:03
JaffaRST38h: you expect sensible semantics from a rushed, botched, badly designed, closed source, low-level, proprietary Nokia piece of crapware which is crucial to the device not arbitrarily rebooting?00:04
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RST38hJaffa: I no longer expect anything00:04
RST38hJust looking for loopholes.00:05
Stskeepsonce you understand powerlaunch, its actually quite powerful :P00:05
Stskeepsand is a decent replacement00:05
lcukthought you lose your sanity in the processs.  its a balancing act00:05
Stskeepsyes, you do00:06
Stskeepswhich is why someone needs to make something alike it, but saner00:06
lcukwithout the t of course00:06
lcuki dont think theres ever been an api invented which didnt piss off someone00:06
GeneralAntillesIf it came with a half-dozen sane default configurations, it'd be workable.00:06
GeneralAntillesOh, and if it were stable.00:06
qwerty12_N800Configuration is fine imho, it emulates systemui in looks well but the functionality is not all there00:07
Stskeepsit's basically a small script language reacting to events00:07
Stskeepsall the magic happens in the scripts00:07
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Stskeepsbut i'm unsure what kind of language would be good for all the bloody many kind of events a tablet can have :P00:09
* qwerty12_N800 hopes ohm is a serious replacement for mce, you have *so* much daemons listening from 3rd party programmers for events on dbus so they can o something00:10
RST38hjava! java likes events! :E~~~~00:11
lcukrexx is just python before they added tabs isnt it00:11
qwerty12_N800s/ o/do/00:11
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JaffaRST38h: Nah, Java has no event stuff built-in. You want C# *cough*00:11
RST38hyea, right! mono!00:12
lcukno, we need full color00:12
Stskeepsi really think a simple 'eval' could do the trick..00:12
johnxfull color? then you want LOGO!00:12
Stskeepsor something00:12
RST38hcolor forth?00:13
lcukgo forth00:13
lcuk+ *00:13
Stskeepsbut having python as a generic event daemon might be freakish00:13
johnxdbus+a giant bash script00:14
lcukwould be kindof sensible, python has squirreled its way into most of the system now00:14
qwerty12_N800python works well for certain things like the headset ;) *cough*00:14
lcukis it easy to make an app have a python interface (like it used to be kinda easy to add an arexx interface00:15
Stskeepslcuk: quite00:15
Stskeepswell, or embed python00:15
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lcuki keep pondering scripting of some sort00:16
Stskeepsfor liqbase? :P00:16
Stskeeps.. libliqbase00:16
lcuklibliqbase is low level objects00:16
lcukits too dumb00:17
qwerty12_N800You'll make alterego cry if you ignore ruby :p00:17
lcukbut the higher level api looks like it might work00:17
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Stskeepsbut really.. how many event sources do we need? the buttons, dbus?00:22
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qwerty12_N800ke-recv is also somewhat of an event handler come think of it00:23
Stskeepskernel events00:25
Stskeepsthought they removed those again though00:25
johnxStskeeps, besides first-boot-wizard is there something else you wanted me to work on?00:26
Stskeepsjohnx: it's a large step on the way to an initial image at least00:26
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johnxSince we don't even have a clock right now I might just upload what I have without timezones00:26
Stskeepsit starts before hildon i guess or?00:27
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* qwerty12_N800 recommends building fiferboy's clock applet. something so simple but it sure as hell increases the usefulness of the statusbar00:28
johnxthink I should make it part of auto-startx or separate it into another script?00:28
Stskeepsjohnx: good question :P00:29
johnxif I make it part of auto-startx then auto-startx will pull in zenity as a requirement or a recommend (if I make it only start if it's found)00:29
Stskeepswell, boot process should go along the lines of boot -> start X -> pop up first boot wizard -> startx as user as chosen -> hildon00:30
Stskeeps- i think00:30
johnxright, it won't work as part of a a different script :)00:31
johnxjust remembered that I already figured that out00:31
Stskeepslovely, flu epidemic rising00:33
Stskeepsalways good in a month with exams00:33
johnxin your area? all over?00:33
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Stskeepsjust in country00:34
johnxwell, just wash your hands after the bus/train00:34
Stskeepsjohnx: were you in the meeting earlier per chance?00:36
johnxthat was the nice thing about commuting by car in the states, but my immune system got weak00:36
johnxnope, fraid not00:36
johnxthink I was briefly asleep :/00:36
Stskeepsliving in a 12 person dorm sure strengthes your immune defense too00:36
Stskeepsespecially with all the left dishes..00:36
johnxI got thrashed when I first moved here and started riding the train00:36
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Stskeepsheh, scary, we seem to have some community backing in this insane feat, johnx ( )00:42
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johnxoh man, didn't hear about the wimax thing tanking :/00:43
Stskeepsthat said, i should probably just ask if i can borrow a n810 for experimentation from my former boss00:43
Stskeepsi had one at some point but my current boss took it again.. hmm00:43
Stskeepsgetting my work n800 back in shape should help too :P00:43
johnxI can probably lay hands on one in a couple months. no chance right now though00:44
johnx"back in shape"? did it eat too much fruit cake over christmas break?00:44
Stskeepsbattery went completely dead and refused to charge00:44
Stskeepsleft it out for 24 hours and it started charging, albeit slowly00:44
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Stskeepsand if my office burns down, i know why00:44
johnxyeah, I'm surprised they released the N810WE at all00:46
johnxreally had high hopes for wimax *sigh*00:46
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Stskeepsi'm not entirely surprised though00:46
Stskeeps3g is exploding here in .dk for network purposes00:46
johnxmobile carriers in the US are vultures though00:47
johnxit'd be really nice to see more players in the game00:47
qwerty12_N800long live the next tablet with real standards00:47
r2d2rogersafter reading bug 943 I still want another tablet with a hard cover00:48
johnxwimax is a real standard, but I think the lesson is that the mobile data landscape is changing faster than product development cycles can keep up with00:48
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qwerty12_N800real as in widely used then. who tf gets an additional subscription to an wimax service when you already subscribe to mobile internet^H^H^H^H3g00:50
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johnxqwerty12_N800, if you're stuck on a crap mobile carrier in the US who has either 1) high data costs or 2) crappy coverage or 3) both00:51
johnxand by stuck I mean: some areas are only covered adequately by one carrier00:51
qwerty12_N800johnx, meh, I dunno/care about the US and it's shitty networks (but I do see the significance to Nokia as they were only sold there) but as for the rest of the world...00:53
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johnxqwerty12_N800, yeah, all the UK carriers are on the same HSPA band, right?00:55
qwerty12_N800johnx, yep, also 3g band is the same all over Europe afaik00:56
johnxthat must be real nice00:56
johnxI always live in the countries with odd cell phone networks...00:56
qwerty12_N800hehe :p00:57
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johnxat least the 3G coverage here is incredible00:57
qwerty12_N800Japan sounds awesome00:57
johnxhave to climb mountains or get on a subway before I lose a strong 3G signal00:58
johnxbut the subway stations themselves have great coverage :)00:58
RST38bisthey should00:58
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Stskeepsis london tube still a hellhole in that area?00:59
johnxI'm just surprised that each and every carrier co-los some equipment in every single crappy subway station in the suburbs00:59
lcukin what area ISNT it a hellhole?00:59
RST38bisit is probably made easy00:59
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johnxI suppose so, and certain things move from possible to obvious at a certain population density01:00
Stskeepsheh, i was very impressed with HK's "wifi ap in every phonebooth"01:01
johnxoooh, video of the SGX rendering things on a beagleboard01:01
Jaffalcuk: indeed01:01
JaffaTfL (Transport for London) have announced there are going to be mobile phone repeaters in (some) Tube stations01:01
lcukit was like descending into the pits of hell, the only experience of london i didnt like01:02
milhouseJaffa: I wish they wouldn't, sometimes it's the only peace & quiet you can get! :)01:02
* qwerty12_N800 just hates the long escalators01:02
JaffaAlthough, compared with the West Coast Main Line over the last week, the Metropolitan/Circle/Hammersmith & City lines are fine01:02
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Stskeepsmm, i'd like to see london again, think it was in 97 or something i saw it last01:03
lcukomg clutter is just as jerky - WTF is wrong with it if it cant render simple things quickly?01:03
johnxI wouldn't mind traveling around UK and EU in general01:04
lcuki mean, they manage a nice high fill rate and lots of polys01:04
lcukahhh its general framerate01:04
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johnxthose demos are actually kind of impressive01:07
johnxand I imagine clutter will have to get some specific optimizations now that it's stabilizing in terms of development01:07
lcukyeah the full 3d ones were, but clutter had 2 actors01:07
lcukand those were controlled by box2d01:08
milhouseStill just demos of a beagelboard though - the Nokia hardware team will still manage to fck up the video on the next tablet device.... ;)01:08
johnxprobably not this time01:08
johnxit's all on one chip :)01:08
milhouseThey'll find a way....01:08
johnxas long as they don't solder it on backwards01:08
lcukcan still get the connectors wrong01:09
johnxnah, they'll get video right but I hold out no hope for the d-pad01:09
lcukthats a better powervr omap3 demo01:10
johnxthose are the old drivers though. that new video was the just released drivers :)01:11
Stskeepsjohnx: i think mer post-first-boot-wizard would need the following: an xterm (with HIM), hildon-control-panel in image, some degree of connectivity (i dont really care which as long as it works), installer working, libhildon providing libhildon-1-0 or whatever ubuntu hildon is (so we can use the -hildon packages in ubuntu); maybe building some things in extras01:11
johnxthe ones that will ship to pandora/beagle users01:11
Stskeepsjohnx: think that's based on nokia drivers01:11
Stskeepsthe first video01:11
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, rxvt + xkbd :p01:11
johnxbut with the SGX binary from ImgTech, right?01:12
johnxStskeeps, "first-boot-wizard" needs all of this or just the next release?01:12
johnxah, misread01:12
Stskeepsjohnx: 0.701:12
Stskeeps0.6 will have first-boot-wizard01:12
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johnxalrght, let me clean up first-boot-wizard and push it01:13
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Stskeepsalso we need a way to change themes sanely :P01:14
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Proteoussanity is overratted01:16
tehforumIrc on my tablet01:16
johnxxchat or irssi?01:17
GeneralAntillesTry XChat01:17
johnxah, if you're gonna do a lot of IRC try xchat01:17
GeneralAntillesIt's much nicer than Pidgin for IRC01:17
tehforumHey G.A01:17
tehforumA familar name01:17
tehforumI only found out how to use IRC a few minutes ago01:17
Stskeepsjohnx: oh! and hildon application manager01:18
johnxStskeeps, gah. do we have to?01:18
qwerty12_N800Has anyone actually used that irssi package in -devell come think of it?01:18
tehforumHey qwerty01:18
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: until xterm has text completion..01:18
qwerty12_N800hi tehforum01:18
tehforumThanks for solving my lock code problem01:18
qwerty12_N800np :)01:18
tehforumSo i got really frightened yesterday01:19
tehforumI took out my battery01:19
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, heh, I've had text completion in xterm, didn't work well...01:19
tehforumCleaned the inside, and when i put it on charge and switched the tablet on01:19
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: re xchat build, you probably need to run or 'libtoolize --force --copy' in rules somewhere01:20
tehforumThe display wouldn't "show" but the keyboard did light up01:20
tehforumSo i was like "crap", and thought my display was broken01:20
tehforumBut after a few more restarts the nokia logo comes on01:20
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, will make a note of that thanks01:20
tehforumSo thats good01:20
Stskeepsmaemopad compiles on mer scratchbox sdk!01:20
tehforumI never knew there would be so many people on the maemo channel01:21
johnxawesome! that's the most maemo-ized package I can think of actually01:21
tehforumHas anyone tried mypaint?01:21
qwerty12_N800what about maemopad+? :D01:21
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johnxqwerty12_N800, I think the packaging is more sane in the + version IIRC01:22
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Stskeepsi think (scaringily), that pymaemo will be our worst part01:23
tehforumWho's the sheriff in the room?01:23
johnxdon't have one I think01:24
qwerty12_N800johnx, most likely is - with things like maemo-icon-26 being employed etc, i think maemopad is an maemo-examples app so more likely to be tested in sbox01:24
tehforumDoes anyone know how to use aircrack?01:25
* Stskeeps wonders idly why gstreamer source is in extras01:25
johnxqwerty12_N800, for some reason I was remembering something about it that made it never work outside sbox...might be making it up01:25
Stskeepsat least we test it on non-scratchbox and in-scratchbox when we build stuff01:26
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qwerty12_N800johnx, no idea, I've never actually ran it once even inside sbox or on the tablets :)01:26
johnxs/made it/made building it from source01:27
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qwerty12_N800tehforum, dunno about using it to the full potential but I just feed it a dump from kismet01:28
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, to be able to pick and mix certain gstreamer plugins that nokia don't build afaik - like ogg01:29
tehforumI need to sniff out some packets.01:29
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: mm, i'm not touching sound until we have some kind of agreement to distribute complete firmware images :P01:29
Stskeepsreally don't want to rely on a /mnt/rootfs trick01:30
* johnx crosses his fingers for non-dsp sound01:30
tehforum*One year anniversary*01:30
tehforumOf having this tablet.01:31
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tehforumIts only failed twice. :)01:31
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, applets i have to see is the statusbar clock & advanced power (after getting pymaemo working :p)01:31
Stskeepsstatusbar clock is C or python?01:32
Stskeepsjohnx: re wimax comment, think we have the reason why there was hints "giggling was heard inside nokia hqs when wimax edition was mentioned" :P01:33
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StskeepsMeiz_n810: can you investigate if you can find any of the "alternative" non-NetworkManager applets that does wifi connectivity?01:36
Stskeepsthat actually work01:36
tehforumDoes anyone know a good file manager? Except for the one installed already?01:37
alteregoI really want a beagle board now. Though the exchange rate from GBP to USD is pretty damn poor at the moment.01:37
tehforumDamn right01:37
alteregotehforum: ls, mv, rm, cp01:37
johnxalterego, still cheaper than anything else out there for the power it has...01:38
tehforum$7 = £4.5201:38
alteregoOh, and cd, pwd :)01:38
StskeepsMeiz_n810: maybe 'wicd'01:38
tehforumMc or gpe file manager?01:39
qwerty12_N800emelfm2 isn't bad01:39
tehforumI like the cd command01:39
tehforumI'll try that then01:39
alteregoLooks like it's going up though, which is good :)01:40
tehforumCd /media/mmc101:40
alteregoI'm going to wait a week and see what happens.01:40
qwerty12_N800Cd not found ;p01:40
tehforumAuto capitalization01:40
tehforumToo much of a good thing is a bad thing01:40
qwerty12_N800In xchat, you don't get that :p01:40
alteregoI didn't think auto caps worked in the terminal ..01:41
tehforumEspecially with case sensitive stuff in xterm01:41
alteregoI meant, _didn't_ work in the terminal ..01:41
tehforumI'm not sure though01:41
tehforumLets put it to the test01:41
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qwerty12_N800alterego, thank god :) but it isn't hard to enable - a one line change to libvte01:42
tehforumTheres a shift option01:42
alteregoJust got back from the pub, did a pub quiz . AND WON A MEAL FOR TWO!01:42
tehforumSo yeah01:42
alteregoEnded on 66 points the 2nd place got 53 :D01:42
qwerty12_N800alterego, wicked :D01:43
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: we should get osso-xterm to work with ubuntu vte or something :P01:43
tehforumTry and beat the eggheads01:43
alteregolibvte-ruby ftw :P01:43
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, it's what I kept suggesting ;)01:43
Stskeepsalterego: are you staying close to ubuntu ruby package names? please say you do01:44
alteregoWhat does osso-xterm use at the moment?01:44
alteregoStskeeps: yes, pretty close.01:44
Stskeepsalterego: thank god.01:44
alteregoIn fact, almost identical.01:44
tehforumOh, the emelfm2 is chinook,01:44
* Stskeeps has been dealing with pymaemo today01:44
Stskeepson mer, as part of work01:44
Stskeepsthat was an interesting experience01:44
alteregoThe only difference is the ruby1.8-dev package which I call libruby1.8-dev01:44
Stskeepsadd in a "Provides: ruby1.8-dev" if you can01:45
alteregoYeah, it's ubuntu that is wrong though.01:45
johnxStskeeps, it's a good thing you're doing it as part of work. sounds too frustrating to be part of the personal time you put into this01:45
alteregoubuntu has a package: libruby1.8-dbg01:45
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johnxgotta pick and choose your battles01:46
Stskeepsalterego: debug package++01:46
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alteregoStskeeps: ubuntu does: libruby1.8-dbg and ruby1.8-dev.01:46
alteregoWhich is b*llsh*t01:46
alteregoAgain, ubuntu/debian :)01:47
alteregoSo my dev package is named libruby not ruby ..01:47
alteregoMainly because you don't need to install the interpreter to develop libraries.01:47
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qwerty12_N800cdBS, hehe...01:48
alteregoOh, I also have a 'erb1.8' package which debian/ubuntu don't have.01:48
johnxif they don't have it it doesn't conflict so that's ok01:49
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alteregoWell, the executable that my package provides, I /think/ is in the ruby1.8 package .. Though it could be in the irb1.8 package.01:49
qwerty12_N800Is erb a part of any other package in debian/ubuntu01:50
qwerty12_N800nvr mind01:50
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alteregoOh, I have extras access now :) So I'll be uploading packages this weekend :)01:51
alteregoOr before, :)01:51
qwerty12_N800whee :)01:51
alteregoDoes Mer have an autobuilder yet? ;)01:51
tehforumFor what01:51
tehforumMay i ask01:51
alteregotehforum: ruby-maemo ;)01:52
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tehforumBig project?01:53
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alteregoIt's the ruby equivalent of pymaemo I guess.01:53
qwerty12_N800alterego, like Jaffa said (I think), a single ruby meta package in user/ that installs the minimum to run most ruby apps would be nice. pymaemo's method of installing it is a little odd :/01:54
alteregoBetter language, though slightly less maemo oriented features at the moment as I've not put in as many hours.01:54
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alteregoqwerty12_N800: yeah. I'm hearing what everyone is saying. But I'm still not convinced ;)01:54
alteregoI want application devs to depend on the packages they depend on.01:54
alteregoIf they need full Gtk/Hildon then depend on hildon1-ruby1.801:55
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alteregoosso: libosso-ruby1.8 etc.01:55
Stskeepsalterego: its not really an autobuilder but it woeks.
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alteregoStskeeps: I'd quite like to help with the Mer project. What kinds of things need to be done?01:58
Stskeepsalterego: well, contribution will soon be easier once we finish the initial image.01:59
alteregoPresumably you're working on a scratchbox rootfs?01:59
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Stskeepsyou can grab armel sdk at01:59
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, mer is and
alteregoWill be hosting repositories for you?01:59
Stskeepsin sb1 sdk02:00
Stskeepsand yes, at some point02:00
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Stskeepswanted sdk stable first02:00
StsN800we have a chroot x86 package builder and sb armel sdk builder atm02:01
johnxand native building is always a possibility for on the go dev work :)02:02
tehforumIs there a way to view cookies saved on microb?02:02
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alteregotehforum: if you go to the website you can do in the location bar: 'javascript: alert(document.cookie);' :)02:03
sp3000cat ~/.mozilla/microb/cookies.txt02:04
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tehforumOk how would i copy that cookies file to my internal memory card02:05
tehforumbut that was fast :o, fast02:05
Stskeepsalterego, from earlier: i think mer post-first-boot-wizard (0.7) would need the following: an xterm (with HIM), hildon-control-panel in image, some degree of connectivity (i dont really care which as long as it works), installer working, libhildon providing libhildon-1-0 or whatever ubuntu hildon is (so we can use the -hildon packages in ubuntu); maybe building some things in extras, hildon application manager, changing themes sanely02:06
alteregocp ~/.mozilla/microb/cookies.txt /media/mmc202:07
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alteregoSo Mer needs some open versions of Nokias closed utilities.02:08
johnxyeah, in a lot of places02:08
alteregoI'd be quite interested in porting ubuntu's package manager to hildon ..02:08
johnxthe add/remove one?02:08
tehforumIs there a place i need get a quick reference of command to use in xterm02:08
johnxor synaptic?02:08
tehforumThey'd be pretty handy02:08
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StsN800alterego, all of the before is open though02:08
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alteregoSynaptic is a bit resolution hungry.02:09
alteregoThe update manager would be sweet though.02:09
GeneralAntillesApplication Manager is open anyway.02:09
StsN800isn't ham largely synaptic based?02:09
johnxStsN800, well they're all just apt front-ends02:09
qwerty12_N800if it is, it doesn't show...02:09
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alteregoI was thinking more gnome-app-installer and gnome-update-manager02:10
tehforumUbuntu rocks btw02:10
qwerty12_N800How about gdebi too?  :)02:10
tehforumbut i can't get sound to work in WINE02:10
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alteregoStsN800: I'd seriously be interested in porting gnome-app-manager and gnome-update-manager if you want me to :)02:12
infobotalterego meant: StsN800: I'd seriously be interested in hildonizing gnome-app-manager and gnome-update-manager if you want me to :)02:12
johnxanything is good. just don't bring in all of libgnome* in the process :)02:12
StsN800hehe.. it sounds a bit heavy though02:12
alteregoAnd I promise I wont s/python/ruby/ ;)02:12
alteregoStsN800: not at all.02:12
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alteregoWe're not talking about the 1,000's of packages ubuntu has in it's "universe".02:13
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StsN800but try get our sdk first and perhaps image02:13
alteregognome-app-manager is pretty light weight ..02:13
alteregoAnd it has pretty icons for the categories .. Unlike maemo ;)02:14
alteregoSorry ITOS :)02:14
johnxif you wanted to fix hildon-application-manager that would be even better of course :)02:14
alteregoIs it broken?02:15
alteregoI thought it was proprietary.02:15
johnxnah, it's open02:15
johnxand anything without pretty icons is b0rken of course :)02:15
alteregoIs that application not the software used in IT OS?02:16
johnxsame one02:16
johnxit's open source and people have already been hacking on it. Might need some logic tweaks to work nicely with ubuntu though...02:16
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StsN800johnx, oh and continual ports of diablo/fremantle dbus interfaces could be good. simply get source package, dpkg-source -x, dpkg-buildpackage -S -sa -us -uc and try to see if builder agrees, if no, hack02:20
johnx"dbus interfaces" what package would that be?02:20
StsN800tablet-browser-interface and friends02:22
GeneralAntillesalterego, s/ITOS/Maemo/g02:22
* alterego shudders02:23
alteregoDone osso?02:23
johnxGeneralAntilles, actually, that's kind of useful to have the distinction in this case :P02:23
GeneralAntillesjohnx, but it's entirely inaccuaret.02:23
GeneralAntillesalterego, reacquaint yourself with Maemo's open source components. :P02:23
alteregoI was attempting to draw a line between OSS and Nokias closed binaries. What would you have me say?02:24
GeneralAntillesWell, if you're talking about h-a-m, then it's open source. :P02:24
alteregoI was asking whether it was closed though :P02:24
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johnxGeneralAntilles, being understood > "accuracy"02:25
alteregoOh crap, did I miss the meeting?02:25
StsN800anyhow, bedtime02:25
johnx'night StsN800. I'll put up first-boot-wizard in a bit, and maybe look at some of the other stuff on that list :)02:26
GeneralAntillesjohnx, well, I didn't understand him. :P02:26
johnxGeneralAntilles, that's ok :)02:26
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johnxGeneralAntilles, so if we're just referring to the UI part of Maemo, then hildon is the official name handed down from the Nokia gods, right?02:27
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johnxand Maemo is the overall project and the name of the distribution02:28
* johnx should make a $%*&ing hierarchical chart02:28
johnxbut this part always gets me: there is "maemo the overarching open source initiative" and "maemo the distro full of closed source stuff"02:29
johnxs/initiative/project or whatever02:29
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GeneralAntillesThere's no differentiation between the open and closed parts. :)02:32
GeneralAntillesMaemo the OS and Maemo the platform is somewhat confusing02:32
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johnxwhich is why it was nice when we could call the distro ITOS to differentiate it from "maemo the platform"02:34
johnxactually I like "The distro formerly known as ITOS" :)02:35
`Maceskype lite for android02:35
johnxhad to happen eventually02:35
`Macesupposed to be put on the market tomorrow but aren't sure when it will be available02:35
`Macefirst native java app from skype02:35
`Macethey're cutting out their 3rd party licenses haha02:36
`Macethis is usually the first step in becoming a conglomerate02:36
`Maceskype is on the path towards being the next vonage :)02:36
Stskeepscountdown till someone reverse engineers skype protocol...02:36
lcukcan i transfer my project from being svn hosted to git?02:36
lcukand if so, what benefits do i get02:37
`Macestart out cheap... gather clients and customers... cut out licenses by making your own software... raise price02:37
`Maceit's the same thing apple did :)02:37
johnxand MS, if you tilt you head a little bit. :) It's the great American dream: start out small and screw everyone who helped you along the way02:38
`Maceof course!02:38
`Maceeventually you pass that threshhold where you have good users and clients..02:38
`Maceand then you just start to have the people who want a hand me out02:39
johnxlcuk, git is supposed to handle distributed development better, but if svn is working for you and your other devs aren't complaining it might not be a big deal02:39
`Macelook at comcast :)02:39
`Macei related comcast to when the city used to put salt on the corners in these box things... so people in the neighborhood could salt their sidewalks after shoveling during the winter02:39
`Macewhat do you think started to happen to the salt? :)02:40
lcukwell since im not updating svn at the mo its probably for the best i look towards the future02:40
lcuksvn will get updated in the next week or so, but its not ready for now02:40
`Macesome ASSHOLE.. in a truck.. systematically went box to box stealing all the salt leaving everybody else to fend for themselves02:40
`Maceand fucked it up for everybody haha02:40
johnx`Mace, and then his truck rusted?02:40
`Macedoesn't matter.. he had more than enough salt to sell to make up for a rusted truck ;)02:41
lcuki understand the need for truckfuls of salt, but where did he get enough lemons?02:41
`Macecomcast was in the same situation02:41
`Macethey left salt out for people because they had plenty of it02:41
`Maceand 5 people came along and used enough salt that 40 people could have used02:42
johnxthen they realized they had less than they thought they did and realized they could get away with charging for it now that they're the only game in town02:42
`Macecan't blame them for being assholes with their connections .. especially when someone paying 20/month expects to download 5TB/month02:42
`Macejohnx - yeah that too :)02:42
johnxno sympathy for big cable, big telco or big wireless02:43
`MaceATT is around here.. but their dsl is GARBAGE02:43
`Maceit's absolutely horrible02:43
`Macei don't know if it's the archaic phone lines here or what.. but it is bad02:43
`Macethe FASTEST i could get here is 1.5mbit02:43
`Macei tried to get them to bump it up because that really is slow as hell for today's internet connection02:43
`Macebut they said they couldn't :) how sad02:43
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`Maceyou know it's bad when youtube is stuttering02:44
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johnxthe symptom: crappy, expensive broadband. the cause: at most two players in any given area02:44
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`Macethere are wireless alternatives now02:44
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`Macei'm pretty sure most cell companies offer "wireless broadband internet"02:45
`Macei didn't look into it too much tho02:45
johnxw/ a 5GB/month cap02:45
`Macedamn.. i'd go through that in a day02:45
johnx`Mace, you're next on the list of comcast's heavy users :P02:45
`Macewhen comcast started getting antsy about their bandwidth.. i just called them up and told them to bump me up to a capless business line02:45
johnx`Mace, they'll just keep going down their list starting from the top until they get to you02:46
`Maceyou would be suprised how difficult it was to find information on how to get a business line02:46
`Macei got the india indian call a long time ago saying i was using too much02:46
`Maceand asked him.. ok.. then how do i get a better line and give you mor emoney so it isn't a big deal anymore?02:46
`Maceand he had no clue02:46
`Macebusiness lines aren't capped02:46
`Maceand cost around 20/month more02:46
`Maceit's just simple extortion02:47
`Macei don't mind payin gan extra 20/month to avoid the headache02:47
`Macehaha.. they already got to me once when i had a res line02:47
johnxI guess $20/month isn't bad if you're allowed to host servers on it02:47
`Mace"You have downloaded 250G and it is only 2 weeks into the month..."02:47
johnxI mean $20 more than a normal plan02:48
`Maceyeah. they had a sale on it though02:48
`Maceplus you have to sign a 2 yr lease02:48
johnxI'd setup my own little CoLo02:48
`Macei think the 1yr lease was a little higher02:48
johnxprobably couldn't get it going to an apartment :)02:48
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`Macei got this line going into my house ;)02:48
`Macejust tell them you run your business out of your apartment02:49
`Macethey don't really care.. they just want the money02:49
johnxapartments are usually just one option though unless you can get wimax or want to use 3G02:49
`Maceonly kids can't pay extra money for more bandwidth ;) which is who they are trying to cut off02:49
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`Macewimax! blah02:49
`Macei was hoping they had it here in chicago but no go02:49
`Maceit's still "planned"02:50
`Macewhatever :)02:50
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`Maceso i went to tmob and got my g102:50
johnxnah, two birds with one stone: get rid of their biggest users to avoid having to improve their infrastructure and get money out of everyone else02:50
`Maceatt's 3G SUCKED02:50
`Maceit was constantly cut off.. their voice service went straight to shit too02:50
`Macei think they're cutting off towers to save money02:50
`Macethey have a good infrastructure02:51
johnxthey're moving more spectrum from EDGE to 3G now though02:51
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`Maceone thing i can say about comcast.. they do keep up with good speed02:51
johnxwon't last with everyone hitting youtube all the time02:51
`Macei have rarely if ever had a problem with them other than the long wait for the install02:51
`Macenaw.. eventually it will level down02:51
johnxVideo-over-IP is the future though02:52
`Maceplus i'm sure they lost a lot of users during the economic crash02:52
`Macei dunno02:52
johnxthat's the direction it's going02:52
`Macemost people just want to talk on the phone02:52
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johnxcomcast or AT&T?02:52
`Macebeing on camera to most people is kind of a pain02:52
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`Macestage fright and shit.. only time i ever use my webcam is to talk to my little son when i'm at work02:53
`Maceother than that i could care less to SEE anybody that i need to talk to02:53
johnxerrr...I meant youtube/TV-over-IP will kill comcast, not video-chat will kill t-mo/att02:53
`Maceusenet will before that02:53
johnxnah,they killed usnet first02:53
`Maceno way02:53
`Maceusenet is still going pretty strong02:53
johnxeveryone's dropping it though02:53
`Macewow really?02:54
johnxthe ISPs I mean02:54
`Maceoh.. maybe their personal servers02:54
`Macethe isps aren't serving it anymore02:54
`Macewhich means $40/month is going to giganews ;)02:54
`Macex 18923792813718937202:54
`Macefor the price of buying 1 bray a month02:54
johnxright, but people are watching TV over the internet02:54
`Maceyou can download 50002:54
`Macei've never really done that02:55
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`Macehonestly don't even know how to tell you the truth.. i'd probably do it if my popcornhour box supported it02:55
johnxbeen watching CES coverage? new TVs have it built in02:55
johnxyoutube / netflix / amazon / some with hulu I think02:56
`Macei download the shows i want.. only time i watch something would be local sports or the news02:56
`Macewhich i could get ota02:56
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`Macewith my tv's digital tuner ;)02:56
johnxyou could get it OTA, but you don't because it's on when you don't feel like watching TV :)02:56
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`Maceno.. i watch the local news every now and then ota02:57
`Macesignal isn't that bad either02:57
`Macewas expecting it to skip a lot more than it does.. i'll probably get a stutter once a day02:57
`Maceok.. i'm going to go to the store02:57
`Macewaiting on skype to get released onto the google market soon :)02:57
`Macetmob 3G is pretty good02:58
`Macei downloaded like 3G on it so far02:58
johnxI'll keep it in mind :)02:58
`Macewant to see how long it takes before they comcast me :)02:58
`Macethey are probably allowing people to get away with murder in order to test their network out for android02:58
johnxI think after 5GB they'll drop you to EDGE or something02:59
johnxdon't remember02:59
`Macewell. there is only one way to find out!02:59
`Macealthough when i'm home i can just use the wifi02:59
`Macemp4s that i play on the phone are like 150MB/hr02:59
`Maceand i only download them when i'm desperate and forgot to copy something to watch onto it02:59
`Maceok.. ttyl03:00
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pupnikit's cold03:16
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pupnikoh god help me03:19
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johnxspace heater03:20
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johnxerror checking always taks more code than the actual program :/03:46
* johnx wonders about localizing bash scripts03:51
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lcukjohnx, every single line of code can fail03:54
johnxbut users fail twice as much as code03:55
lcukno, badly written code will consistantly perform badly, even a stupid human will get it right some of the time ;)03:55
johnxthankfully I have adduer to check username validity03:55
lcukheh, my users failed because of damned "."03:56
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, shit, I see what you mean by 2TB. . . .04:49
johnxwe should see it on linux devices with a kernel update04:51
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GeneralAntillesBut exFAT?04:59
johnxwow...that's really messed up that there can't be an open source implementation05:06
johnxguess MS got the SD association under their heal finally05:06
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GeneralAntillesYeah, "standards"05:17
GeneralAntillesWhat are these people thinking? :\05:17
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johnxI was just giving linux a big pat on the back for finally having really reliable ntfs read/write support...seriously though...exfat? even xp users are screwed05:18
johnxbut xp users are MS's enemy just as much as mac or linux users are :/05:19
GeneralAntillesMaybe Microsoft will open it up when Summer comes. :P05:21
johnxthat has the potential to be much worse than a straight reverse engineering job05:22
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johnxseriously, there isn't even an up-to-date patch for the linux kernel it seems. Bet that'll change pretty quick when these hit the streets though05:23
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johnxbah, such a SNAFU. but not thinking about it, AFK05:23
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GeneralAntillesMess up shit05:25
GeneralAntillesYou wonder who the hell is on the committees that decide this nonsense05:25
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TheFatalcan any1 help me ?05:55
LinuxCodejust ask06:01
LinuxCodeif anyone can they will06:01
LinuxCodesaying that its 4-5am in Europe06:02
LinuxCodeand US east coast must be 12am06:02
LinuxCodemany people wont be around06:02
TheFatali have a problem whit maemo-mapper06:02
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TheFatalin console: "Segmentation fault (core dumped)" when i try to run maemo-mapper06:04
LinuxCodeTheFatal, that sounds fatal06:04
LinuxCodeif it persists there is a bug06:04
TheFatalthere is a bug, becos i reinstall the soft and the fw06:05
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GeneralAntillesReinstall wont help06:07
GeneralAntillesDelete your dbs06:07
TheFatal-.- who ?06:07
TheFatalhow ?06:07
TheFatalfk tip xD06:07
TheFatalwhat i have to do ?06:08
TheFatalhow to remove dbs ?06:13
GeneralAntillesWherever you defined them06:14
GeneralAntillesDelete them.06:14
TheFatalbut i have no idea where there are... :S06:15
GeneralAntillesMaybe Home if you didn't move them. . . .06:15
TheFatalpoi.db ¡¡06:16
GeneralAntillesThat's one.06:16
TheFatalthe same msj error06:17
TheFatalthe same error mesage06:17
TheFatalThe same error message06:20
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MaceN800wonder wha to do06:36
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MaceN800hm... something a boutthe girl with the bone on her head07:39
MaceN800in babylon5 kind of turns me on07:40
MaceN800OK *cough*07:40
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pupnikces 2009 - netbooks netbooks netbooks08:12
pupnikis nokia there?08:12
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MaceN800pupnik, skype announced an official android program08:16
MaceN800first java skype made  by skype08:16
MaceN800thank god  because all they have is iskoot08:17
MaceN800which is absolute garbage08:17
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MaceN800it uses minutes to use skype.. uses call forwarding through the voice channel rather than actual pkkt data08:18
MaceN800they should be lined up and shot08:18
MaceN800the whole dev team08:18
GeneralAntillespupnik, not in a Maemo capacity08:20
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ShadowJKMaceN800, fringe does skype, voip and a bunch of others over data...08:22
ShadowJKuh, fring08:22
MaceN800no fring for android08:23
MaceN800i'll just wait for an official skype release08:23
pupniknokia is not being effective in the media-space08:23
pupnikgod damn google08:23
MaceN800android is absolutely awesome08:23
GeneralAntillesEh, there's nothing to talk about Maemo-wise.08:23
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GeneralAntillesEspecially not for a consumer electronics show08:23
MaceN800nokia should do a major update to symbian to compete prretty soon08:24
MaceN800keep the base but make it a little prettier to use08:24
pupniki could think of nice media apperances08:24
pupniknice model woman, wearing 3 n810s08:24
GeneralAntillesN810 is basically EOL08:25
GeneralAntillesThere'll be fanfare and media coverage when the RX-51's out.08:25
MaceN800maemo needs to look nicer too08:25
pupnikthe display could be screenshot nipples08:25
MaceN800i don't know.. after getting my g1.. nokia seems behind the running08:25
GeneralAntillesMaceN800, compared to what? :\08:25
pupnikpls explain MaceN80008:25
GeneralAntillesIt looks better than almost everything else as-is.08:26
MaceN800i think android is better08:26
MaceN800then again android has stronger hardware08:26
GeneralAntillesEither way, who cares?08:26
MaceN800but my n95 is very strong08:26
GeneralAntillesAndroid is a cellular platform08:26
MaceN800and runs symbian which looks like it is from the mid 90s08:26
MaceN800so is symbian08:26
MaceN800and it has been the same for about a decade08:27
pupnikok wait08:27
GeneralAntillesMaceN800, #maemo not #symbian08:27
pupnikgoogle phone manages your data in web-apps08:27
GeneralAntillesWe don't much care about cellular platforms08:27
MaceN800well. he said "nokia..."08:27
MaceN800and android is more a portable platform08:27
MaceN800the cell part is more of a bonus08:27
MaceN800the n900 will have a built in utms modem08:27
LinuxCodeeneralAntilles> There'll be fanfare and media coverage when the RX-51's out.08:28
MaceN800so does that make maemo a cell platform too?08:28
LinuxCoderx-51 ? is that linux based ?08:28
pupnikthat is based upon transferring private data to a 'free' service08:28
GeneralAntillesLinuxCode, RX-51 is the next tablet08:28
GeneralAntillesusing OMAP308:28
pupnikis a total-information-awareness trojan08:28
GeneralAntillesWe don't know that it'll be called "N900"08:28
LinuxCodebased on linux though ?08:28
GeneralAntillesBut we do know it's current device code is RX-5108:28
MaceN800pupnik, haha08:28
GeneralAntillesLinuxCode, it's the next Maemo tablet. . . .08:29
pupnikso as long as 'android' is based on google apps08:29
pupnikfuck it08:29
LinuxCodeI just had to check08:29
GeneralAntillesMaceN800, voice is cellular08:29
GeneralAntillesData really isn't08:29
LinuxCodeI was getting worried for a moment08:29
MaceN800GeneralAntilles, because you can talk on it?08:29
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, i take it thats the device ari was talking about08:29
MaceN800yu can use skype on an n800... voice is always data nowadays08:29
pupnikskype is also a trojan08:29
GeneralAntillesBecause the regulatory and carry requirements that apply to voice are different from the ones that apply to data-only.08:30
LinuxCodewith 3g/umts ?08:30
pupniki'm tellin you08:30
MaceN800pupnik, i have yet to try the android flash on my n80008:30
GeneralAntillesMaceN800, whatever you may believe it to be, or whatever it may actually be, it doesn't have a whole lot to do with what carriers and regulatory industries believe it to be. :)08:30
MaceN800since it is rather immature08:30
GeneralAntillesand cellular is a different formfactor08:31
MaceN800you're just playing symantics08:31
MaceN800android is not a "cellular" platform.. it is a portable platform08:31
MaceN800just as palm used to be.. then it moved onto phones08:31
pupnikyeah well the time is coming08:32
pupnikwhen we will need communication08:32
pupnikstore-and-forward bluetooth fidonet08:32
pupnikunderstand, fuckers?08:32
MaceN800i'm just saying that nokia's software is rather dated08:33
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LinuxCodepupnik, you drunk ?08:33
pupnikstore and forward, fucker08:34
* LinuxCode takes that as a yes08:35
pupnikand you are what, 27 years old?08:35
LinuxCodeis that even relevant ?08:36
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pupniki want to know how close my guess is08:36
pupnikthere is a point to open-source08:37
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pupnikin case you haven't noticed08:37
pupnikbitch-ass consumer titsucker08:37
LinuxCodei dont think you will find standard consumers here08:38
LinuxCodeI also dont think standard consumers get a N810 tbh08:38
pupnikwish they would08:38
pupnikbut they are fucking apes08:39
LinuxCodebut there is hope08:39
LinuxCodeconsumers are buying eepcs08:39
LinuxCodethats a first step08:39
pupnikgood point08:39
LinuxCodeto make people realize there is more than MS08:39
pupnik /wget nice woman08:42
solmumaha404 not found08:49
ljpit is if he needs someone to buy him more beer08:53
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RST38hmoo all10:30
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JaffaMorning, all10:40
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JaffaBah, the Diablo reference manual being all PDFs makes it impossible to quickly find, and then link to, a specific part of maemo (e.g. alarmd) to give out to people10:47
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t_s_ohmm, looking at the CES coverage it seems as if the economy is still going at full tilt...11:17
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X-Fade~curse spamassassin for breaking the lists _again_11:37
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, spamassassin for breaking the lists _again_ !11:37
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RST38ht_s_o: Don't worry, the next time they will all be showing heated soup caps and electric blankets =)11:38
RST38hs/caps/cups/ hm11:38
t_s_otime will tell i guess ;)11:39
RST38ht_s_o: On the other hands, there is LHC!11:40
RST38hSo maybe not11:40
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StskeepsX-Fade: any news on the meeting log? :)12:09
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X-FadeStskeeps: I'll have to step out for 10 minutes, but after that I will upload it.12:11
Stskeepsalright, thanks :)12:11
Stskeeps(much appreciated)12:11
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Stskeepsmorning lcuk12:29
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alteregoHello folks.12:34
alteregoI want one of those TI beagle boards + DLP Pico projectors :)12:34
Stskeepsbeagleboard is cute, but it had a tendancy to bring out the worst in my sd cards12:34
florianalterego: I can confirm that this combination is a nice toy.12:35
alteregoIt's strange, that I was predicting devices would have the hardware we have _now_ about 10 years ago :)12:35
alteregoflorian: :P12:35
alteregoflorian: Did you get the TI devkit? Or separately? The projectors cost £250 on their own.12:35
* florian currently tests if latest kernels do what I need12:36
alteregoOMAP3 kernel?12:36
florianalterego: no i had the board already but not much time to do somethign useful with it12:36
florianalterego: yes12:36
alteregoI plan on building a 3D DVB-T PVR12:37
alteregoI want to do things like cover-flow with TV channels :)12:37
alteregoI'll need another DVB tuner dongle (making 2)12:38
alteregoI've already starting writing the code.12:38
florianalterego: nice12:40
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Stskeepsthanks! :)12:41
solmumahaalterego: don't get sidetracked here :)12:43
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alteregoI have plenty of time to go around :P12:43
lcukmornin Stskeeps12:44
aleksiL_Xterm on my n810 is showing dark grey as black. Is there a fix or a workaround?12:45
alteregoClean the screen? :)12:46
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alteregoaleksiL_: Menu->Tools->Settings (Background Colour)12:47
lcukincrease brightness12:47
aleksiL_Tried both.12:47
alteregoHave you tried turning the device off and on?12:47
alteregoI've never seen this happen without someone changing the desktop background. Maybe you should submit a bug report.12:47
Stskeepsalterego: there's a bugfix in libvte for this, i believe12:48
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aleksiL_Stskeeps, how do I install it?12:55
Stskeepsbuilding it from osso-xterm trunk i think12:56
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aleksiL_And how do I do that? :)13:01
Stskeepstwo ways. prodding osso-xterm developers or grabbing diablo SDK and grabbing the svn trunk inside and dpkg-buildpackage it :P13:05
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aleksiL_The only tinkering I've done so far is following step-by-step guides to resolve specific issues. Where could I find a newbie-friendly introduction to this stuff?13:09
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Jaffalo lardman13:16
lardmanah, need to email the council don't I13:16
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lardmanspeaking of which, I've not seen any other emails either13:16
pupniklardman's girlfriend is cute13:21
lardmanrandom comment of the day?13:21
lardmanbut thanks13:21
pupnikshe has good taste13:22
lardmanwell that's debatable hey? :)13:22
alteregoDid you just say his girlfriend tastes nice?13:22
* alterego chuckles.13:22
* lardman sees we've already started down the slippery slope....13:22
pupnikno.  it was just nice to meet him13:22
lcukpupnik, that wasnt a picture of lardmans girlfriend i sent you - it was a picture of lardman in his girlfriends dress13:22
pupnikand her13:22
lardmanlcuk: oi! I hope you've fed Jake at some point, is he still reving the Citroen to melt it? ;)13:23
lcuk:D ive solved problem :D:D:D:D:D13:23
lcukit melted but still failed13:23
pupnikstill the highlight of berlin (or lowlight)13:23
pupnikwas getting lost with lcuk13:23
lcukso i had an epic battle with the fuse box and battery stuff13:24
pupnik"haven't we been here before"?13:24
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lardmanpupnik & lcuk: lol13:24
johnxlcuk, yeah, electrical stuff is no fun13:24
lardmanwe did that too a couple of times13:24
pupnikno, wait.  highlight was the beer garden13:25
lardmanor rather the beer therein :)13:25
pupnikin that park place13:25
pupnikit was just awesome13:26
pupniki was like, overhearing drunken conversations by other people13:26
pupnikthat i wanted to hear13:26
Stskeepsmorning johnx13:26
pupnikunlike the typical bar situation13:27
johnxmornin Stskeeps13:27
pupnikit was like 'wait what r u talkin bout'13:27
pupnikjohnx, were you at linuxtag?13:28
johnxnope. where will it be this year?13:28
lcukyes, beer garden was fun, getting lost was fun(ish)13:28
lardmanjohnx: somewhere with beer13:28
johnxwoo! linuxtag at my apartment13:29
lcuklardman, i wanna get down to london sometime in the next few weeks, fancy a beer?   (plus anyone else if we can arrange proper times)13:29
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lcuk(ps, typical daytime i keep having to vanish)13:30
lardmanlcuk: I'm pretty busy atm I'm afraid, not sure I'll be making it to London for a while13:30
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johnxsame here :P13:31
lardmangive qwerty12_N800 a shout when you're there though13:31
lardmanjohnx: :D13:31
lcuklol yeah i forgot you werent that close13:32
lardmanbloody Northerners! ;)13:32
lcukwell london is practically commutable for you13:32
johnxlardman, How long is it by train to London?13:32
lardmanyeah, 1hr40 or so13:32
johnxpssh, that's nothing13:33
lardman+tube after that13:33
lardmanManchester to London can't be much longer than that13:33
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lcukat least 3 days hiking13:33
lcukwe dont have them new fangled iron horses here yet13:34
lardmanor they freeze due to the subarctic conditions ;)13:34
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infobotI herald you, my supreme master! Lead us into the light of your wisdom and power13:35
lcukyeah, and its no fun pouring water from a bottle on your window at 70mph!13:35
RichiHi am aware that this is not quite the correct channel, but does anyone know when the nokia n97 will be released?13:35
lardmaninfobot: why did you suddenly pipe up?13:35
infobotI did *WHAT*?!13:35
glassRichiH: next summer13:35
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RichiHlardman: because i joine13:35
RichiHglass: bleh :(13:35
lardmanah, you're obviously special :)13:36
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lcuki thought they released it?13:36
lcukor was that just showboating?13:36
glasslcuk: announced != relased13:36
lardmanthey had a pre-launch iirc13:36
RichiHlardman: historic reasons13:36
lardmanRichiH: no worries, just wondering13:36
glasslcuk: they generally announce tech flagships way ahead of release13:36
lardmanhmm, where's the announce on the n900...13:37
glasslcuk: other phone manufs do the same.. at least nokia mostly releases those tech flagships13:37
RichiHa n900 has been announced?13:37
glassmeant lardman13:37
RichiHatm, i am kinda waiting for the pandora13:37
lardmanRichiH: not really, other than with info from the next SDK13:37
lardmanRichiH: more of waiting than kinda ;)13:37
RichiHlardman: don't tell anyone, but they will start shipping in feb at the latest13:38
RichiH(tell anyone you like :p )13:38
RichiHbut yah, if i am lucky, i might be able to take a full prototype or even one of the first finished ones to fosdem13:39
lardmanI'm still torn, will probably get one anyway13:39
RichiHi _will_ bring a devboard for the embedian people to play with13:39
lardmanRichiH: are you involved in the project?13:40
RichiHlardman: no, but i know one of the lead devs13:40
* RichiH wonders when maemo will run on the pandora ;)13:41
Stskeepsmer prolly will very easy.13:41
RichiHStskeeps: i suspect so, as well13:41
johnxRichiH, working on it ...13:41
RichiHif anyone will be at fosdem, i could poke ED about a second devboard13:41
Stskeepsand since it works on x86 already.. :P13:41
RichiHjohnx: ah. do you have a devbboard?13:42
Stskeeps.. and a zaurus13:42
RichiHStskeeps: it's arm13:42
Stskeepsi know13:42
RST38hFeb 2010?13:42
johnxRichiH, nope, but if the pandora boots ubuntu and has an x server, then maemo on mer is easy13:42
RichiHjohnx: it runs angstroem13:43
RichiHbut gentoo, debian & ubuntu are being worked on, as well13:44
johnxexactly :)13:44
lardmanso end of feb is the current shipping prediction then?13:48
johnxI'd bet march on the safe side13:48
johnxand I hope it's in march or I'll need to have them ship to a different address (!)13:48
lardmanyeah, that was my prediction13:48
lardmanI hope it's December, no wait, that's already gone13:48
johnxdid you see the "mini-roadmap" post13:48
johnxit looked awfully optimistic to make a feb shipping date13:49
johnxand if it is out in feb I'll be pleasantly proven wrong :)13:49
* lardman wonders what other cool hw will be about in March13:51
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johnxwell, if CES is anything to go by: a couple more crappy MIDs and a decent atom-based netbook from HP13:52
johnxthe ARM-based and MIPS-based netbooks seem to be either targeted at Asian countries (not Japan either...) or coming out late this year13:53
lardmanhmm, not too exciting then13:53
johnxyeah, I'm not too worried :)13:53
johnxhey, is Nokia at CES?13:53
Stskeepspeter@marketing said maemo wasn't, at least13:54
johnxthere's some android-based tablet concept it seems making the rounds13:54
johnxbut with a 480x320 screen. thoroughly "meh" in terms of a target for Maemo13:55
RichiHlardman: end of jan is the earliest, end of feb the latest starting date13:55
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johnx"latest"? after that they'll just cancel the project or something?13:55
RichiHbut from what i gather of internal predictions13:55
RichiHwhat roadmap post, btw?13:55
johnxwas mentioned on:
RST38hjohnx: Anything Atom-based is going to be crappy performance wise13:56
johnxRST38h, yeah, but $330 isn't a bad price for crappy performance :)13:56
RST38hSame goes for the MIPS based devices. Just had a chance to compare similarly specced ARM and MIPS boards and MIPS sucks moose balls13:56
RST38hjohnx: "I am not rich enough to buy crappy goods" (C)unknown13:57
johnxnow, get me a PPC based netbook and I'd be interested...13:57
RST38hjohnx: Would you like refridgeration with that? ;)13:57
Jaffalcuk: if you're in London post-26th January (back to work after paternity), give me a shout13:57
johnxI think freescale does a low-power 603e13:58
RichiHthe new sony gadget is nice13:58
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RichiHbut kinda expensive13:58
JaffaThe Vaio-P?13:58
johnxyeah, you pay a lot for the form factor13:58
JaffaI was thinking "$900" isn't much, but then remembered that GBP's crashed recently, and so $900 != 450GBP13:59
johnxwonder what they want in JPY...13:59
johnxbut, I had a chance to do another hands-on with that HP mini-note 2133 and mini 1000...those are just about perfect in every respect for me14:00
johnxoh guys got burned14:00
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StskeepsJaffa: did your baby get delivered yet btw?14:01
lardmanhmm, dimensions always in inches, /me looks for an Imperial ruler14:01
johnx30cm -> 12in14:01
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dnearyActually 12in = 30.5cm14:02
JaffaStskeeps: yeah, Kathryn <something> Flegg was born 12:32pm yesterday, weighing 7lbs 11oz, 53cm long and looks like:
dnearygrats Jaffa!14:02
dnearyHow many kilos in 7lb11oz?14:02
dneary3.5 about?14:02
X-FadeUse google..14:02
Jaffadneary: no idea, babies are always measured imperially in the UK14:03
lardmanjohnx: I know, but then I have to use arithmetic to work out how large it is, rather than just looking at my ruler14:03
dnearyJaffa: What's 53cm in metric, then?14:03
johnxlardman, or ... learn both systems :P14:03
JaffaBabies' weights, sorry14:03
dnearyJaffa: My guesstimate was pretty close, then :)14:03
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StskeepsJaffa: woo, congratulations :)14:04
dnearyThe guess was from the 500g pots of jam, which were 1lb pots with "10% extra free!" when I was a kid14:04
dnearySo 7lb +10% = 3500g14:05
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lardmanJaffa: yes, congrats14:05
dnearyAnd 10% of 7lb is roughly 0.7*1514:05
dnearyOr 10.5oz14:06
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dneary(anywayn, that's that for the anecdote of how I do imperial weight to kgs)14:06
dnearyI've found imperial volume to metric much harder - esp. for fl. oz. and US gallons14:06
dnearyBecause we never used those in Ireland14:07
dnearyI know 8 pints is a gallon in Ireland, which makes about 4.5l14:07
dnearyAnd I know the difference between a half litre and a pint (68ml)14:07
dnearyBut I think US gallons are smaller, or something14:08
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dnearyOr bigger14:08
lardmanthey;re smaller14:08
lardman1 US gallon = 3.78541178 litres14:09
lardmanaccording to Google14:09
dnearyAh - there's the difference14:10
lardmanso US mpg figures aren't quite as dire as they seem14:10
dnearyA US fl.oz. is bigger than a British fl.oz., but there are 16 US fl.oz. in a US pint (473ml) and 20 British fl.oz. in a British mint (568ml)14:11
dnearylardman: It still makes me want to slap US people around the place when they complain about gas at $3 a gallon14:11
lardmanyeah, absolutely :)14:12
dnearyWhen in France we were paying €1.35 a litre, or $1.83, or $6.40 a gallon14:12
lardmanwe're down in the 90s now (p/l)14:13
johnxdneary, but you have a public transportation system that works14:13
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lcukjaffa - congratulations on giving birth to a new tangerine :D and when i know for certain when im coming ill give you and others a shout14:13
dnearyWhen they went up to $4 a gallon, we were at €1.50 a litre14:13
lardmancertainly can't say it works in the UK14:13
dneary$7 a gallon14:14
dnearyThe difference is, a 33% increase in US gas prices equals an 18% increase in French petrol prices14:14
dnearyBecause it's over 50% tax in France14:15
dnearyAnd we're down to under a euro for diesel here, about €1.05 for petrol14:15
RST38hthat is all for the good of the environment! rejoice!14:16
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johnxRST38h, did you catch the pics and videos of those cortex-a8 netbooks in action?
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RST38hjohnx: Cool! Are these going on sale at BestBuy?14:21
johnxnot yet it seems :/14:21
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RST38hDo they run MS Word?14:21
johnxhar har14:22
RST38hThought so.14:22
RST38hIf it looks like a laptop, it is supposed to run MS Word.14:22
johnxnot reason it wouldn't run open office of course. it'd be fine for kids14:22
johnxand actually I'd expect them to show up at k-mart or target or walmart instead of best-buy14:23
lcukkids hate it (esp in uk) they are taught with office14:23
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johnxhey, kid, would you like a laptop to check facebook and lolcats (but open office instead of word) or are would you like to not have a laptop?14:24
RST38hjohnx: What is open office? I dunno how to use it and my teacher can't open my homework afterwarss14:24
RST38hjohnx: He wouldn't14:24
johnxthat's BS14:24
RST38hjohnx: It is not. I may not necessarily agree with this, but this is how things are.14:24
lcukjohnx, luke uses nokia for facebook etc, but for homework office is whats expected14:24
johnxRST38h, adults are one thing, kids are another14:24
lcuki got shouted at when i offered open office (ok, i told him it was linux as well)14:25
RST38hjohnx: same crap14:25
RST38hjohnx: and you can't imagine how mean those "educators" are nowadays14:25
Stskeepsadmittedly i don't like OO either, but that's cos when I used it and recommended it to people, it was -very- unstable :P14:25
johnxRST38h, in a choice between having a computer and not having a computer, a kid is not going to turn down a computer14:25
lcukyes, they are14:25
lcukits like offering a kid a ps-one when really they wanted an x-box14:26
Stskeepsi find it curious how many people accepted Works instead of office back then14:26
lcukMUCH more opinionated14:26
lcukit was microsoft14:26
Stskeepsand how everyone says they need Word14:26
* lcuk remembers a time before office14:27
johnxStskeeps, probably because MS poisoned the well by making Works and Word not place nice. now they know they can't trust anything but Word14:27
johnxlcuk, I still hold that it's different with computers than it is with game systems. A PS1 doesn't have Halo, but this has facebook and AIM14:28
johnxand for kids they probably care about how it looks more than what it's running, provided you get them at a young enough age14:29
lcukjohnx, homework is a big factor, i was moaned at because i didnt have the same version of office..14:29
Stskeepsi was actually biased towards clarisworks, scaringily14:30
Stskeepson mac14:30
Stskeepsfrom school14:30
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johnxlcuk, yeah, that has always been a big thing :/ *sigh*14:30
lcukoffice2000 was not what he was used to14:30
johnxMS still manages to strong-arm more great formats on the masses14:31
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Stskeepsjohnx: heh, we actually have state accepting ODF and all that crap now..14:32
Stskeepsbut next to noone sends it. Everyone sends PDF instead.14:32
JaffaJaffa Jr#1 only cares if his laptop runs Firefox so it can get to BBC Redux & Cbeebies website14:32
johnxI accept PDF...grudgingly14:32
lcuk:D i like it when people use .doc format to send screenshots :D14:32
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johnxbut what I'm really not amused by is exFAT for SDXC :|14:33
* Stskeeps was kinda sold to his gf when she ran opera instead of IE and had other sane software choices.14:33
* lcuk still uses pdf thingy v514:33
lcukit asks me to  upgrade often14:33
johnxmy wife got a new laptop running vista and she's already complaining about missing ubuntu :)14:33
lcukyeah, its a shame you cant let her copy yours14:33
johnxlcuk, you might want to. apparently there are several security holes in old version of Adobe PDF reader14:34
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lcukthem linux guys really need to lower their prices14:34
RST38hjohnx: the problem of not having a computer rarely arises in western world14:34
lcukits ok johnx, i dont read anything malicious14:34
Stskeepsmorning Andrewfblack14:34
johnxRST38h, not having a computer in the household and kids not having "their own" computer are a little different14:36
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johnxanyways, thought you'd get a kick out of the ARM netbooks. I wasn't really commenting on their retail viability in western markets...more from a technical POV14:38
Stskeepsput some green colors on it and claim it isn't as power hungry, and that'd sell a lot..14:38
lardmangreen colour screen?14:39
RST38hjohnx: you can get a used computer for your kids for peanuts14:39
RST38hjohnx: way less than $400 for a netbook that does not run Office14:39
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Andrewfblacksome kids would rather have the peanuts14:39
johnxRST38h, $200...14:39
RST38hjohnx: yes, about that much, with a monitor14:39
RST38hjohnx: The reason why you wouldn't is to keep your kids from getting addicted to WoW or Facebook or whatever14:40
johnxeh. like I said...not commenting on commercial viability. I was thinking of one for myself14:40
RST38hConsider getting a real light subnotebook then :)14:41
johnxI thought you might be interested in seeing that they have working prototypes since you seem to be some what interested in non-x86 hardware :P14:41
Stskeepsi think if i have a kid and he reaches 6 years of age, or whatever, i'd give him a computer he'd have to hack on to get things working14:41
Stskeepsdid wonders for me14:41
Stskeeps.. provided he shows same tendancies14:41
RST38hjohnx: I had no doubts they would have working prototypes14:42
lardmanthose handbag laptops look more like the size14:42
johnxand yes, my potential offspring will likely end up with linux computers unless they 1) really need it for school or 2) feel the need to buy themselves a windows license14:42
RST38hSts: A kid nowadays wouldn't hack14:42
RST38hSts: Kids have changed somewhat14:42
RST38hjohnx: What I have doubts about if whether anyone needs these prototypes14:43
johnxRST38h, I don't buy it. there's hackers in every generation...or did you forget some of the people on here?14:43
Stskeepswhat johnx said.. even my nephew has been hacking about since he was 1314:43
RST38hjohnx: Yes, what I mean is there are much fewer people interested in tinkering with each generation14:43
RST38hjohnx: It kinda went out of fashion14:43
johnxha. it was never in fashion unless I missed something14:44
RST38hjohnx: Well, you had sizable number of kids tinkering, it was the age of science, space exploration etc14:44
RST38hjohnx: We live in the age of Britney Spears now.14:45
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johnxmy general reaction to "kids are different nowadays" is to call BS14:45
RST38hjohnx: Well, I taught kids back in 1998-199914:45
GeneralAntillesjohnx, what's actually meant by that is "I'm different nowadays" ;)14:45
RST38hjohnx: And I can tell you for sure (same as a lot of instructors) that they are different14:45
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: dear god @ bug14:46
johnxRST38h, did you teach kids 40 years ago? If not, it's comparing apples and oranges14:46
johnxcomparing how you remember your own childhood to how you perceive other children's lives now14:47
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RST38hjohnx: I know people who taught kids 10-30 years ago14:47
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: akamai can really fuck up in surprising ways at times though14:47
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, yeah, unfun, but the ultimatums are always exciting.14:48
RST38hjohnx: I remember myself and other students14:48
johnxRST38h, apples, meet oranges.14:48
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Heh, yeah. Had to laugh when that ended up in my mailbox.14:48
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: the fucky part is this comment is not even by someone participating in the bug report14:48
GeneralAntillesWhatever you remember, your snapshot of both experiences is so small as to be meaningless when generalized to "kids these days"14:48
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: We've asked akamai to check it out btw.14:49
johnxanyways I have a bash script to coral, since the other kids aren't hacking on it for me14:49
GeneralAntillesAnecdotes aren't particularly useful most of the time.14:49
RST38hGeneral: In fact, my experience applies specifically to kids stufying computers14:49
X-FadeStskeeps: He filed a duplicate bug..14:49
RST38hGeneral: And it is not anecdotal, as we are talkibg about several dozens of students14:49
RST38hGeneral: + opinions from people who taught more students over longer periods of time than myself14:50
GeneralAntillesWhose own experiences are also limited.14:50
GeneralAntillesAnyway, you clearly believe what you believe, and it's not my goal to convince you otherwise.14:50
StskeepsX-Fade: who should i contact btw if i have some questions on how the git on garage will be implemented (for planning purposes)?14:51
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X-FadeStskeeps: ferenc14:52
X-FadeStskeeps: ferenc @ maemo14:52
* GeneralAntilles should probably update the wiki.14:52
Stskeeps(mostly because my talk item from 9th dec went mostly ignored :P)14:52
X-FadeHe's implementing it now..14:52
RST38hSymbian Foundation is hiring =)14:54
Stskeepsit's mostly a simple question of if a project can have only one git repository, or multiple :)14:54
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, your projects don't get any. :P14:56
alteregoI like the ideas about the revised development portal.14:56
GeneralAntillesEverybody else can have as many as they want, though.14:56
X-FadeStskeeps: Your project can already request a repo, that is enabled in garage now..14:56
alteregoI'm constantly faffing around trying to find platform API's.14:56
X-FadeBut for funky configurations you need to ask ferenc.14:56
alteregoI end up just using google ..14:57
GeneralAntillesalterego, yeah, Nokia's documentation on is a mess. :/14:57
GeneralAntillesMaybe Maemo@Forum Nokia will help with that.14:58
RST38hAnd not going to become better any time soon14:58
alteregoHopefully, though the most recent maemo publication is filed under S60 O_O14:58
alteregomaemo planet _really_ needs fixing. It's be borked since it's existed.14:58
Jaffaalterego: even using Google, I can't find the most up-to-date stuff.14:59
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GeneralAntillesWell, it'll be going live when goes live.14:59
JaffaAnd the 4.1 stuff's all PDFs! Lovely to print out, a bastard to search14:59
alteregoJaffa: yes, that's when I manually edit the uri ;)14:59
alteregoWill be replacing
X-FadeJaffa: The new documentation import is almost ready. After that you also have the html available.14:59
GeneralAntillesalterego, no.14:59
alteregoInteresting, so what's the reasoning behind two sites?15:00 is the community website15:00
GeneralAntillesMaemo@Forum Nokia is for commercial Maemo devs15:00
alteregoInteresting.15:00 is for normal users and perspective users15:00
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GeneralAntillesMostly what it accomplishes is freeing from any obligations to Nokia.15:00
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alterego(I think) :)15:01
lardmanGeneralAntilles: have we finished the review, I've not got any emails?15:01
Jaffaalterego: very cool15:01
GeneralAntilleslardman, none have been sent yet.15:01
lardmanGeneralAntilles: I thought I was running late (just remembered last night)15:01
Jaffalardman: You are. But so is everyone else :)15:01
* lardman heads off to get some lunch & look through the bits & bobs15:01
JaffaAnyone seen etrunko recently?15:01
Jaffa~seen etrunko15:01
infobotetrunko is currently on #maemo (40m 52s), last said: 'hi GAN800 GAN800 GeneralAntilles'.15:01
JaffaSo, he's not dead :_)15:02
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GeneralAntillesWonder if he's back from vacation yet15:02
alteregoIguess czr has dropped out of the maemo community.15:03
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GeneralAntillesalterego, he dropped by a few months ago, I think.15:03
GeneralAntillesBut, yeah, he kinda disappeared like you. ::P15:03
alteregoCool. It'd be nice to chat with him. Don't know what he's doing now his contract ended with Nokia15:04
infobotalterego meant: Cool. It'd be nice to chat with him. Don't ksince what he's doing now his contract ended with Nokia15:05
* GeneralAntilles goes back to bed now.15:05
alteregoThat is a rather annoying feature of infobot. I can't believe it's survived15:05
GeneralAntillesWell, we did kill _Monkey15:06
johnxs/^/not annoying. it's useful sometimes...15:06
johnxjust remember to leave off the last / if you don't want infobot to pick it up15:07
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Stskeepsoh god15:15
Stskeepstetrinet for maemo15:15
Stskeepsshould .. not.. get.. addicted.. again15:15
Stskeepsi spent so many years in my teens on that game15:16
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johnxut2k4 was my time-sink, but I've been clean for a couple years15:16
Stskeepswtf @ git abilities15:18
Stskeepssvn can checkout a subdirectory in a repository15:18
Stskeepsgit can't15:18
johnxreally? bzr can get just a subdir, right?15:18
johnxwhat's the big reason to go git vs bzr?15:18
Stskeepsgetting closer to maemo.org15:19
Stskeepsbzr has easy "create new repository" :P15:19
RST38hdoesn't use SVN?15:19
Stskeepsyeah, it does, but it will have git too soon15:19
Stskeepsdistributed vcs or wtf it's called is good for contribution though15:20
JaffaI dunno what's driving the git move on; Maemo Software seem to have started using it, but I suspect it's tool-envy/grass-is-greener/cool-buzzword stuff rather than any real pressing technical problem with svn15:20
JaffaIt's not exactly like Maemo is a hub of decentralized development projects ;-)15:21
StskeepsJaffa: i can see good things for it really15:21
Stskeepsyou're not forced to a certain vcs-determined workflow15:21
JaffaBut git's so geared for Linus' Linux development, patch-oriented workflow (or was, last time I looked)15:22
Stskeepsyeah, but if you get away from the abstraction of svn, it's patch-oriented too :P15:23
JaffaNow svn's got merge tracking, the only thing a DVCS would give *me* on my variety of projects is local commits.15:23
JaffaStskeeps: true15:23
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zeenixJaffa: git does (seem to) have merge tracking15:25
zeenixJaffa: check `gitk`15:25
Jaffazeenix: oh, I'm sure it does - but lack of merge tracking was a big problem with svn for long running branches which are due for merge to the trunk at a later date.15:25
zeenixJaffa: there are lots of problems with svn, lets not go there :)15:26
JaffaThere are lots of problems with everything15:26
zeenixi think people who still ask `what's wrong with svn` have been living under a rock15:26
jameylocal commits are really useful. I like git more and more, even when the repository I'm working against is svn.15:27
w00tgit is much, much nicer, and I say that as someone who used SVN for 5 years before moving to git under a year ago15:28
jameygit-rebase --interactive is also very powerful -- so you can rearrange and combine those local commits before pushing them upstream.15:28
Jaffafiar enough15:28
zeenixyeah, unfortunately the boring dudes who only work in their offices don't understand the value of local commits15:28
* jamey is a boring dude who does most of his work in his office but still likes local commits. :)15:29
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JaffaAnd developers go off on some techno-wankery to push out new tools and changes to a stable system when there's been no community push for it.15:29
w00tbeing able to create multiple copies of the repository for different patchsets is also useful15:29
w00t(if branches aren't suitable)15:29
Jaffaw00t: yeah, that's very useful15:30
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jameyhas anyone here tried QGraphicsScene on the N810?15:30
Jaffazeenix: perhaps you should be careful about using phrases like "boring dudes" and "don't understand"; since I'm like jamey.15:31
zeenixalso, git (or any DCVS i know of) doesn't stop you from having more or less the same workflow you had with svn if you still insist on sticking with old technology15:31
zeenixJaffa: i didn't mean you or anyone in particular15:31
w00tzeenix: yeah, you can use any workflow you like instead of being *forced* into one particular box15:31
zeenixJaffa: you are not a boring dude if you are on this channel :)15:32
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johnxzeenix, hey, don't generalize! Just because I'm on this channel doesn't mean I'm not boring15:41
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Stskeepsjohnx: git update: one-repo per project (for now) but seems extensible to have /projects/projectname/reponame ass well15:56
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Stskeepsand suggesting we contribute ideas to ggit project15:56
johnxok, /projects/mer/h-a-m ass it is!15:56
johnxwhat is ggit? garage git?15:58
zeenixjohnx: it wasn't a generalization, just my observation15:58
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, think so15:58
X-Fadejohnx: The actual git plugin for gforge..15:58
X-Fadejohnx: Which Ferenc is developing.15:58
johnxwhat kind of ideas are being solicited?15:59
Stskeepsjohnx: multiple repos for projects and per-user repositories15:59
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r2d2rogersStskeeps: I like both of those ...16:07
r2d2rogersanyone play on github?16:07
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zeenixr2d2rogers: i use github if thats what you mean16:11
zeenixr2d2rogers: usually to keep an up2date mirrors of my local branch for backup purposes16:11
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: trying to get the mer stuff on as it shows off a bit more ownership by the community :P16:12
r2d2rogersStskeeps: right, I was just thinking as far as a source of ideas for feature suggestions16:12
r2d2rogerszeenix: nice, I'm still trying to get up to speed on a project to contribute to there, as I don't have many contacts that share my interest in git yet16:13
etrunkoJaffa, GeneralAntilles: hey16:14
X-FadeIt's alive! :)16:15
etrunkohi X-Fade16:16
etrunkohappy new year everybody16:16
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Stskeepsafternoon Meizirkki16:18
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Meizirkkigood afternoon Sts16:20
MeizirkkiMaemopad :)16:20
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StskeepsMeizirkki: can you do me a favour and test if 'wifi-radar' package works on mer?16:20
Meizirkkithe one from extras?16:20
Stskeepsits in ubuntu repository16:21
Meizirkki~curse 5GB/month data limit16:22
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, 5GB/month data limit !16:22
t_s_onow thats a brain twister...16:23
StskeepsMeizirkki: (it's a wifi applet thing and im pondering if it works "ok")16:23
johnxt_s_o, a 5GB data cap can't be any worse at sys admin'ing than your average MCSE16:23
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MeizirkkiStskeeps: yep, i first read wireless-info, that's why i asked about extras :P16:24
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Meizirkkidoes wifi-radar include panel-applet?16:25
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t_s_oheh, i must admit, i ones took a course aimed at MSCE, but more or less bailed on it when the topic was more about setting up sales packages then actual admin work on windows servers...16:25
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johnxt_s_o, yeah, I took some part of it too, IIRC. Just kinda sat there and fiddled around on my zaurus, and helped my "lab partner" learn the stuff. The younger generation is more diligent than us though:
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Stskeepsisnt there a child labor law? :P16:30
johnxI think she just got an MCSE, not actually a job16:30
johnxMCSE certification that is16:30
t_s_oi think the UN has something to say about child labor, yes, but they also have something to say about kids and educations...16:30
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Veggentso: it's evil to put kids through brainwashing^H^H^HMCSE anyhow :)16:32
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t_s_oheh, and other private or public educations are not brainwashing?16:33
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t_s_ough, sorry, i keep dipping into some kind of cynicism mixed with fatalism...16:35
johnxI prefer to just dip into the ice cream :)16:36
johnxprobably hot cocoa tonight instead though16:36
johnx~lart lack of central heating16:36
* infobot DoSes lack of central heating16:36
Stskeepsmmm. ice cream16:36
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t_s_ohmm, DoS on the lack of something...16:36
lardman~lart mathematics16:36
* infobot dumps 42 tons of dirt, manure, and fish heads on mathematics16:36
johnxlardman++ infobot++16:37
MeizirkkiStskeeps: first try: wifi-radar did not start using menu-item, i'll install terminal emulator to see if it gives some output16:37
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Meizirkkiosso-xterm yet?16:38
t_s_oheh, kinda cool watching a thinkpad go into lockdown (probably with a encrypted drive) after its built in wwan system gets a text message from the owner16:38
StskeepsMeizirkki: you might need to restart16:38
Stskeepsi think16:38
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t_s_oaltho i suspect "experience" must be the number one buzzword these days...16:38
MeizirkkiStskeeps: i installed wifi-radar using chroot from maemo, so i did reboot16:38
lardman~lart rotational symmetry and central points16:38
* infobot puts rotational symmetry and central points into a headlock and administers a mighty noogie, rubbing half of rotational symmetry and central points's hair of16:38
lardmanmuch better16:39
Stskeepswriting an article as part of an exam is shite. :P16:39
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johnxmmm...programming exams. I do miss those16:40
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lardmanhmm, I had to help someone with dyslexia read one of those, or at least be available16:40
dnearyJaffa: Ping?16:41
RichiHanother non-maemo question: any idea when the e72 will come out?16:41
dnearyRichiH: A non-maemo answer: No idea16:41
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MeizirkkiStskeeps: Wifi-radar needs to be run as root, but i forgot to add myseft to sudoers, i can see it working when i get sudo access :P16:44
Stskeepsok, let's see how it goes16:44
Stskeepsmaybe being part of 'network' group or which one it was..16:45
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MeizirkkiStskeeps: not working :(16:48
Meizirkkii'll pastebin the output16:48
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Meizirkkicould adding to network group help?16:53
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Stskeeps'wicd' is up next :P16:53
johnxyes, groups that might help: plugdev, netdev16:53
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Stskeepsyeah, try add to those two16:54
* johnx looks at error16:54
johnx...though in this case not sure if it will help16:54
Stskeepsyeah, but you never know16:54
Stskeepsbman claimed he used it16:54
johnxyeah, that's what hildon-desktop taught me16:54
johnxsure it might say "illegal instruction" but it probably just means I'm missing some icons16:55
Meizirkkii'll add groups and try both wifi-radar and wicd16:55
johnxbe sure to log out and in again after adding yourself to the groups16:55
Stskeepsremember to remove wifi radar first ;)16:55
MeizirkkiStskeeps: why?16:55
Stskeepswell when trying wicd, make sure wifi radar is gone :P16:55
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Meizirkkii think i tried wicd once before (when i had deblet packages for wlan). it was giving same kind of output..16:59
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Meizirkkiwifi-radar now complains something about gtk...17:01
johnxseeing pygtk problems in other ubuntu programs too17:02
Stskeepsit isnt built for gtk 2.1217:02
Stskeepswhich was the issue i was having yesterday17:03
johnxthat would make a lot of sense17:03
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Stskeepsit really wonders me why nm-applet doesnt work17:04
Stskeepsoh, maybe..17:04
StskeepsMeizirkki: you bored?17:04
johnxdo you want to be bored?17:04
Meizirkkijust tell me what's in your mind :P17:04
StskeepsMeizirkki: [15:52] <johnx> yes, groups that might help: plugdev, netdev17:05
Stskeepsand then try network manager again17:05
Meizirkkii have to download nm...17:05
Stskeepsyeah, we should set up a donation found for your testing17:05
johnxalso might be worth trying it as root, just for fun17:05
Stskeepstrue, it acted weird on root too17:06
Stskeepsi thin17:06
* johnx sees what happens when he runs first-boot-wizard...17:06
Meizirkkihehe, i'm just 14. This is fun, no need for money :P17:06
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Meizirkkiwhen i start wicd as root it gives me this:17:07
Meizirkkii open that file, there is only: 212917:08
StskeepsMeizirkki: yeah, except you wont be able to get pygtk to work :P17:08
Stskeepsso you cant actually talk to it17:08
Meizirkkimoving to nm-applet...17:08
johnxwoo! do we have an official Mer background?17:10
Stskeepsnot yet? :P17:11
johnxthis first-boot-wizard works nicely, but it would look better with a background :)17:11
* Meizirkki wants to try first-boot-wizard...17:11
Stskeepsjohnx: if we can find Meizirkki's background open licensed, :P17:11
Stskeeps"We skipped the "E" release by jumping from "D"iablo to "F"remantle. "17:12
Meizirkkii think itäs gpl or something17:12
Stskeepsoh that explains a -lot-17:12
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infobotMeizirkki meant: i think it's gpl or something17:12
johnxand then my X server died O_o17:12
Stskeepswhat was url again?17:12
Stskeepsjohnx: when last client exits maybe?17:13
johnxI got a backtrace and a signal 1117:13
MeizirkkiStskeeps to the background?17:13
Meizirkkii'm gidding it up17:13
Meizirkkii still have no idea about the author17:15
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StskeepsMeizirkki: mm, looks like it is not distributable17:19
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MeizirkkiStskeeps: i think i wicd and wifi-radar fucked up my network settings. nm-applet does not even scan for networks now17:22
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johnxMeizirkki, see anything interesting in dmesg?17:23
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TheFatalany1 speak spanish ?17:23
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johnxun poco17:24
TheFatalexiste alguna forma de actualizar el fw desde el n810 ?17:24
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Meizirkkijohnx: there is "cannoty get GPIO configuration for device" and "probe of spi2.1 failed" in dmesg17:26
johnxMeizirkki, probably not connected17:26
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Meizirkkii'm gonna reinstall Mer and try nm-applet without messing with wicd and wifi-radar17:27
johnxTheFatal, si, pero no es facil.17:28
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TheFataljohnx: tenes la pagina donde dice como hacerlo ??17:30
Stskeepsjohnx: heh,
lardmanque es hacerlo?17:33
johnxTheFatal, leer /usr/bin/flash-and-reboot17:33
TheFatallardman: kind of make17:34
lardmanTheFatal: gracias :)17:34
johnxTheFatal, flash-and-reboot es un shell script que 'flashes' kernel y initfs17:34
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TheFataljohnx: pero se puede usar en el N810 sin conectar a la computadora ?17:37
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lardmansi es possible17:38
lardmantodos con el N81017:38
lardmansorry for my rubbish Spanish too :)17:39
lardman /usr/bin/flash-and-reboot es en el N81017:39
TheFatallardman: se entiende :) gracias17:40
lardmande nada17:40
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bedboihi there.17:41
dnearyhablamos en espagnol?17:42
TheFatalhi/hola :P17:43
lardmandneary: I take that as a no :)17:45
dnearyno intiendo espagnol, mas hablo muy bien17:46
dnearyNo soy marinero17:46
dnearysoy capitan17:47
lardmantoo fast for me!17:47
dnearyI know17:47
dnearypara balar la bamba es necesita una poca de graca17:48
lardman~google graca17:48
lardmanGoogle no se graca, que es?17:49
r2d2rogersto dance the bamba you need a little grace?17:49
johnxdneary, :P17:49
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lardmanI always wonder what the lyrics are, and now Dave has prompted me to find out while I'm sat in front of a PC (rather than drinking at someone's wedding)17:50
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dnearylardman: You're welcome (I think)17:54
lardmano fortuna is next17:55
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alteregoI suppose the wiki would be the ideal place to write Ruby-Maemo documentation/tutorials/examples.18:00
alteregoRather than my setting up my own :)18:00
lardmanyep :)18:01
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AndrewfblackStskeeps You around?18:03
Andrewfblack new release of MerEcho18:03
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Stskeepsthanks, what are the changes+18:03
Stskeeps(any new screenshots?)18:03
johnxwoo! new Mer echo!18:03
johnxperfect timing :)18:03
AndrewfblackA ton, I had to get ride of the transpance due to mer not being able to do that yet18:04
Andrewfblackone sec on screenshots18:04
lardmanhas someone got the alpha SDK installed and in front of them?18:04
Stskeepsfremantle one?18:04
Stskeepsnot in front of me, but in my office :P18:04
Stskeeps(i can ssh in)18:04
lardmanI want to check is g77/f77/gfortan comes in it18:04
lardmanah, no need, someone's already done it18:05
lardmansorry for the bother18:05
Stskeepscan't see it18:05
lardmanno, it's not there18:05
lardmanjust trying to get some info for a bug I opened long ago18:06
lardmanEero answered anyway18:06
StskeepsAndrewfblack: testing18:07
Jaffadneary: pong18:08
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AndrewfblackAll I could grab before Nokia Died on me18:12
r2d2rogersany way to set theme from command line in Mer that I'm playing with?18:12
johnxAndrewfblack, that looks a lot like the theme I've been wanting to make for a while :D18:13
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: editing start-hildon18:13
Andrewfblackjohnx If you want to help I'm going to release the source to it soon.18:13
r2d2rogersStskeeps: thanks18:13
johnxsounds good, I might do a color variation...18:14
AndrewfblackYou know I find more errors taking a screen shot and blowing it up lol little 1 pixel things you can't see on tablet18:14
StskeepsAndrewfblack: i'm not exactly sure why but my "take screenshot" applet doesnt show up in extras anymore :)18:14
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AndrewfblackI need to come up with a better name then MerEcho now since it looks nothing like Echo theme anymore lol18:16
Stskeepsit reminds me a bit of some b-movie i watched..18:16
dnearyJaffa: How does 14h UTC next Tuesday suit you for a web design meeting?18:17
AndrewfblackStskeeps I was trying to go with something kinda simple that could be built on later18:17
TheFatalalguien que hable español: se le puede poner ubuntu o fedora a N810 ??18:17
StskeepsAndrewfblack: hehe, yeah18:17
AndrewfblackI'm not in love with my custom icons yet, but I don't like stock ones either18:18
Stskeepswe dont really have that many stock icons :P18:18
TheFatalN810 -> Fedora/Ubuntu... possible ??18:18
StskeepsTheFatal: ubuntu definately, but not that fast18:18
Jaffadneary: perfick, since I'm on paternity leave18:18
TheFatalbut possible :)18:19
TheFataland fedora ?18:19
Stskeepsno clue. someone started18:19
Stskeepsno idea how far they got18:19
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johnxpoco dificil, :)18:22
TheFatalsi :S18:22
* Stskeeps wonders what set_theme is18:22
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johnxTheFatal, ?usa linux en su desktop?18:26
dnearyJaffa: Perfick18:26
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dnearyBetter than our usual wacky meeting times :)18:26
TheFataljohnx: yes, allways :)18:26
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TheFataljohnx: why ?18:27
johnx<- curioso solomente18:27
TheFatalcan i use mmc for swap ?18:27
TheFatalmaybe -> swapon /dev/mmcblk0p218:28
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johnxyes, settings -> control panel -> memory (?)18:28
johnxen ubuntu/fedora: swapon :)18:28
TheFatalbut in N810 xD18:29
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johnxsettings -> control panel -> ???18:29
johnxI forgot18:29
Stskeepsjohnx: we could consider making MyDocs and .images .music etc too btw18:29
Stskeepsthen load applet screenshots will actually work18:29
Stskeepsand we'll get purdy file chooser18:29
AFB|Awayhey is there a web server that allows you to run php files on your tablet18:29
johnxah, can just throw those in /etc/skel I suppose18:29
TheFataljohnx: there is not the option "swap" or "swapon" in control pannel18:30
johnxAFB|Away, nginx or apache or lightttpd18:30
StskeepsAFB|Away: Mer, apt-get install apache and php? ;)18:30
MeizirkkiStskeeps: i'm not sure, but if there is "MyDocs" in home dir, hildon will make ".xxx" subdirectories automatically18:30
StskeepsMeizirkki: even on mer? :P18:30
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AFB|Awaynginx is the one i used to use they all run about same speed18:32
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johnxTheFatal, settings -> control panel -> memory18:33
TheFatalunmount /media/mmc2  ->  swapon /dev/mmcblk0p2   (?) works ?18:33
TheFataljohnx: but only can put 128 mb :S18:34
TheFatali want more ! :D18:34
TheFatali need more too :P18:34
TheFatalgames, games, games :)18:34
Stskeepsyou're not going to run halo 2 on it.. :>18:35
johnxcual game?18:35
TheFatalsome for ps2 for example...   game (eng) -> juego (esp) :P18:35
infobotjohnx meant: cual juego?18:35
johnxno way to play ps2 games18:36
TheFatalif psp18:36
TheFatalbut if the hardw its better18:37
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TheFatalin psp can only put (for example) win98, in n810, winXP18:37
johnxTheFatal, gameboy advance works18:37
TheFatalsuks gba18:38
TheFatalgba suks :P18:38
johnxemulation needs 12 times the CPU power to work18:38
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TheFataland how **** psp can run whit less hw18:39
MeizirkkiStskeeps: yes i think so18:39
TheFatalPSP: cpu 333Mhz, dram 4 mbs18:41
johnxN810 CPU: 400MHz. 333 x 12 != 40018:42
MeizirkkiStskeeps: nm-applet still doesn't want to connect18:42
Meizirkkii added groups18:42
StsN800Meizirkki, k, try to get /var/log/messages or alike18:43
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r2d2rogersi broke something on my X in Mer on 770, any good route to grab a fresh install at this point?18:45
StsN800Meizirkki, and /home/whatever/.xsession-errors18:46
TheFataljohnx: the psp have dual core... thats why...18:47
MeizirkkiStsN800: k18:48
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tank-manpsp has dual nothing, it doesnt multitask18:51
Meizirkkir2d2rogers: imager?18:51
StsN800r2d2rogers, will make a 0.6 770 image too. imager is best bet otherwise18:52
TheFatalpsp have 2 333 mhz cpus, or no ?18:52
r2d2rogersMeizirkki, StsN800, thanks, digging in launchpad for now18:52
r2d2rogerswill use my platform and target files18:53
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Stskeepswe switched to using 'auto-startx' now instead of rc.local thing18:55
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r2d2rogers::nods:: I was wanting to see how well that worked on the 77018:56
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* johnx packages furiously18:56
Stskeepsprolly good if you remove sapwood initialization from start-hildon :P18:57
r2d2rogersI still need to get the SDK at some point I guess18:57
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r2d2rogersI only have /dev/fb0 but Xorg is trying to use /dev/fb1, and xorg.conf says /dev/fb019:03
MeizirkkiStskeeps: how did you get osso-xterm installed? i am getting dependency problem (osso-xterm depends on libvte4, but mer wants to install the ubuntu one)19:04
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Meizirkkir2d2rogers, you can create symlink.19:06
johnxMeizirkki, do you have roxterm installed?19:07
RST38hwell, moo19:07
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Meizirkkijohnx: yes19:07
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MeizirkkiRST38h: moo19:07
qwerty12hi RST38h19:08
johnxit depends on another libvte. might have to uninstall that first19:08
Meizirkkijohnx: ok, thanks19:08
Meizirkkii am willing to uninstall roxterm anyway, because chr opens menu19:08
Meizirkkiand i am using chr for Mode_switch19:09
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AFB|Awaywow I have lighttpd running at 117% of my cpu power how is that even possible lol19:10
johnxAFB|Away, watch out. you're racking up CPU debt19:11
Meizirkkiload-applets process-dialog shows six number cpu-usage when closing an app :)19:11
AFB|AwayI think I am just trying to run someone with to much php code for hte tablet19:12
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AFB|AwayI wonder if any of the speed mods i see on itT really work19:13
johnxdepends on what your limitation is19:13
TheFatalcual es la temperatura promedio del n810 ?19:13
AFB|Awaydoes the n810 processor slow down as the battery dies like some laptops?19:14
johnxAFB|Away, nope. it scales up and down depending on load. if you're getting slow response time you could lock it in performance mode19:15
johnxbut if it's sitting at 100% already it won't make a difference19:15
AFB|Awayhow do you do that?19:15
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qwerty12echo performance > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor19:16
johnxas root of course19:16
qwerty12or just use advanced power19:16
qwerty12of course19:16
lardmanTheFatal: ~30C for me19:16
AFB|Awaywell lighttpd is jumping all around will locking it in help?19:17
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AndrewfblackI haven't had time to install Advance Power Yet is it in extras?19:17
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lardmanTheFatal: when listening to mp3s that is19:17
Andrewfblackgarage or is like on itT?19:18
qwerty12it's on both19:18
TheFatallardman: tnks...19:19
AndrewfblackI've fallen behind on what new apps are out, hard to beleave how much time I've been on tablet these last 2 days I was ready to get ride of it on monday lol19:20
johnxyup, it sucks you back in :)19:21
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TheFatalits necesary to install telnet server ??19:23
Andrewfblackcan I not install Advanced Power from App Manager says I'm missing some depends but I can't find then19:23
qwerty12install it with dpkg and then just do an apt-get -f install19:24
TheFataland ssh server ?19:24
johnxssh server? necesario? no.19:25
StsN800but helpful19:25
johnxssh server es conveniente por muchas razones, pero no es necesario19:26
TheFatal:S i'm setting the n810 config to boot from a flash card. but why its helpful ?19:27
TheFatalnose si lo dije bien :S19:27
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Andrewfblackqwerty12 whats the command to install it with dpkg19:27
r2d2rogersStsN800: missing /usr/lib/dri/swrast_dri.so19:27
johnxTheFatal, por debug :)19:27
qwerty12Andrewfblack, dpkg -i <deb file>19:28
Andrewfblackthanks couldn't remember the -i19:28
r2d2rogersAIGLX error fromt he Xorg log19:28
qwerty12TheFatal, generally, if you don't know why you are doing something, it's not the best of ideas to do it...19:28
StsN800r2d2rogers, normal19:28
StsN800no opengl;)19:29
TheFatalqwerty12: i want to boot n810 from a flash card19:29
r2d2rogersok that makes more sense <G>19:29
TheFatali follow this
johnxzenity won't find XML::Parser inside mer sdk but it builds on native ARM. will commit first-boot-wizard and work on zenity tomorrow19:29
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qwerty12XML::Parser being a perl thing?19:31
johnxyeah, it is installed19:31
qwerty12The only thing perl in zenity is the gdialog script iirc, you could probably remove it from the package. Or you could edit debian/rules and remove the PERL lines I shoved in there to force it to use maemo's perl; not scratchbox's perl19:32
johnxok, I'll do that tomorrow :) 2:30AM here O_o19:33
StsN800johnx, sec19:33
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StsN800johnx, mer ssdk your side or builder?19:33
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qwerty12johnx, Wow, I don't have the power to stay up that long :D19:33
johnxStskeeps, my side19:33
StsN800if your side, missing perl devkit19:33
johnxaaah, that might do it19:33
StsN800another thing to add to wiki19:34
johnxanyways, I'll look at it first thing tomorrow19:34
johnxqwerty12, I screwed up my sleep schedule O_o19:34
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johnxanyways, thanks for the help. 'night19:34
qwerty12Although, anyone know if doing an export PATH=/usr/bin:$PATH is possible in Makefile syntax like it is in bash?19:35
qwerty12night johnx19:35
Meiz_n810Stskeeps / johnx : apt-get dist-upgrade:
TheFatal./ 0   -> Error message: "Unable to identify target devuce and partition whit a valid linux filesystem (type 83)19:35
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lardmancu later chaps19:37
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TheFatali have it19:37
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TheFatali have all19:38
TheFatalbut when i run 0, appears the error message19:39
qwerty12StsN800, I hope when you promote Mer, it isn't like this: :P19:40
StsN800dear god19:41
StsN800and whats with the shit brown color shirts anyway?19:41
qwerty12The way the guy on the right is looking at the guy on the left makes me wonder :P19:42
StsN800next ubuntu colour scheme will be rainbow, eh19:43
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qwerty12 - for all you KDE lovers19:44
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* r2d2rogers kicks off the old imager run while he goes to lunch20:01
Andrewfblackif I use nginx can i install php to go with it?20:02
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lardmanany council people about?20:04
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lardmanGeneralAntilles: ping20:04
lardmanJaffa: ping20:04
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Jaffalardman: pong20:05
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TheFatalhow i unmount a partition ?20:20
TheFatalbcos unmount: not found :S20:20
TheFatali hate my english -.-20:20
lcukumount isnt it20:20
TheFatalits says "unmoun"20:21
TheFatalthe url20:21
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lcukim looking20:21
TheFatalIn Xterm on your tablet, run:20:21
lcukunmount not found on page20:21
TheFatalapt-get install e2fsprogs20:21
lcukbut umount is20:21
TheFatalumount /media/mmc120:21
TheFatalumount /media/mmc220:21
TheFatalsfdisk /dev/mmcblk020:21
TheFatali read bad =P20:22
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lcukyes, you do :D heh20:22
TheFatalif mmc2 its busy, how can i unmount it ? :S20:23
tank-manclose all programs accessing files on the card20:23
lcukjust reboot and make sure usb isnt in and stuff20:23
lcuksimplest cleanest thing20:24
tank-mansuch a windows solution20:24
lcukworks though :)20:24
TheFatalcan i kill process ?20:24
lcuksome, yes but if you arent root maybe not20:24
TheFatalyes, i'm root, but can i make something "bad" ?20:24
TheFatalwhit kill command20:25
TheFatalpuedo romper algo ? can i make some crash ?20:25
lcukTheFatal, yes, if you stop a required process all hell can break loose and firey demons will fly up and vaporise you :)20:28
TheFatali mean data...20:28
lcukyeah, so did i20:29
lcukif the process is busy doing something when you shut it off it may leave the data in a bad state20:29
TheFatalok, i'm going crazy...20:32
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TheFatalcan u tell me how format, partition the flash card and boot from the flash card ??20:34
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RST38hehlo lcuk, how are things?20:35
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Xamuskdamn... ukmp sucks21:06
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Xamuskit doesn't even start without an external card!21:06
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Meiz_n810Tear console output and as far as i can get with nm-applet in Mer:
r2d2rogersMeiz_n810: I was getting similar messages with tear21:13
r2d2rogersinvalid pointer...21:13
TheFatalwhat theme is it ?21:14
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Meiz_n810with no transparency21:14
StskeepsMeiz_n810: similar i could get21:14
Meiz_n810could that "pointer" have something to do with the finger scrolling? (wild guess)21:15
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Andrewfblackhey got a problem I have nginx and php5 installed but when I got to the php file it just wants me to download the file21:16
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* r2d2rogers remembers he has to comment out some things to get to X for Mer on the 77021:20
GeneralAntilleslardman, pong?21:21
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TheFatalcan i format the n810 flash memory ?21:28
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gladiacyou can, but then you don't have a system you can boot21:35
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GeneralAntillesI'm assuming he's talking about the soldered-on 2GB21:39
gladiacTheFatal: you mean the internal fat32 system21:40
TheFatalnono, for example... i want to format my winXP computer. I format it, and after i install winXP, but without all programs21:42
TheFatalsomething like that21:42
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, flashing is
TheFatalbut i have not the usb connector21:42
TheFatali lost it :S21:43
GeneralAntillesminib connectors are a dime a dozen21:43
GeneralAntillesYou can pick up a six-pack at the grocery store for $7.9921:43
TheFatalwhere ? in argentina ?21:43
TheFatalin usa21:44
TheFatalhere in argentina its about $2021:44
AndrewfblackGet a Mini ot Micro USB cable from Cell Phone store about 5 Dollars designed to be used on New Razor with out buying new cables21:45
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Andrewfblack wow down to $1.79 I might get me a few extras21:46
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RST38hGeneral: Are they edible?21:47
GeneralAntillesRST38h, the chocolate coated version are $9.9921:48
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doc|home* may induce death21:48
GeneralAntillesCellular people on itT still crack me up.21:48
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AndrewfblackHey if we are putting PCIe in I have some other ideas for stuff to add to lol21:50
GeneralAntillesPCIe would be so ridiculously expensive.21:51
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: looks good21:51
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GeneralAntillesPerhaps Palm may become relevant again.21:51
gladiacwow, the new webkit-eal runs really smooth21:51
XamuskI wonder if they'll put FM radio back into the tablets21:52
GeneralAntillesXamusk, and an FM transmitter21:52
GeneralAntillesboth with RDS support21:52
AndrewfblackGeneralAntilles Maybe XM radio?21:52
Xamuskno XM21:52
GeneralAntillesBut with 3G you can just stream whatever. . . .21:52
Andrewfblackwas a joke21:53
Xamuskcommon FM reception without needing the headphones as antenna21:53
gladiacKhertan: ping21:53
GeneralAntillesXamusk, no idea how it'll be wired.21:53
AndrewfblackI do wish there was a XMRO player for tablets21:53
Xamuskthough I think 3G would be nice indeed21:53
Xamuskno-phones are good for tablet people, but phone stuff does wonders to gain markets21:54
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mavhcreason I bought an n810 instead of a smartphone is it's half the price21:56
mavhcdunno why a cellular radio costs $30021:56
GeneralAntillesCarrier requirements, government regulatory agencies21:58
GeneralAntillesBoth are very expensive21:58
mavhcbut flat rate, not per deivce21:58
GeneralAntillesJust because one device is certified, doesn't mean all devices from that manufacturer automatically are. :)21:59
mavhcI mean 1 model21:59
mavhcit's not $300 per machine sold21:59
AndrewfblackWhats the fastest browser for N810 I don't care about features just speed21:59
mavhcdo you care about javascript?21:59
Xamuskis there lynx for N810?21:59
GeneralAntillesEr, well, it's millions upon millions of dollars and that cost has to be spread out over all units sold. . . .21:59
gladiacAndrewfblack: webkit-eal22:00
Andrewfblackwell yeah javeascript22:00
Xamuskmaybe python's urllib :)22:00
gladiacwebkit backend for the standard browser22:00
gladiacGeneralAntilles: i would prefer elinks22:00
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mavhcI played with a blackberry storm today, like the hover then click GUI, that's what's been annoying about touchscreens22:03
GrackleOh are there visual cues as to where you're about to hit before your finger touches the screen?22:05
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Andrewfblackgladiac well I can't say webkit for default is faster for me crashes everyime I open it22:13
gladiacAndrewfblack: reboot the device22:14
Andrewfblacki did22:14
lcukRST38h, mmmn they are ok thanks22:14
gladiacit works just fine for me22:14
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gladiacNo crashes22:14
lcukAndrewfblack, so it crashes faster than nay other app22:15
Andrewfblacklcuk lol thats true22:15
Andrewfblackgladiac I'll try removing it and installing again later22:15
Andrewfblackanyone know if new fennec update is even worth installign22:16
gladiacAndrewfblack: it runs more or less fine22:16
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gladiaci prefer the standard browser with webkit22:16
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TheFatalhere, take a look of the video ;)
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wazdHello everybody22:19
lcukhiya wazd22:20
RST38hPalm finally laid an egg22:21
RST38hTook them eons22:21
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wazdHey lcuk, seen your PoC with my menu, looks nice)22:22
Stskeepsheya wazd22:22
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lcukits a start, as said in the forum, was just to see what i needed to do to jump from boxes to clean looking ui elements, and thankfully its a tiny step :)22:23
lcukhaving the framework around to allow that sort of thing is just as important though22:23
lcukhey Stskeeps, hows mer22:23
Stskeepslcuk: going forward22:23
lcukcan i install it and do xv stuff yet?22:24
wazdHello, Stskeeps, sorry again for my long PM reply22:24
Stskeepswazd: hehe, it's fine :)22:24
Stskeepsholidays and all22:24
Stskeepslcuk: if you dare to run b-mans installer, maybe22:25
lcukwill it fit on a 1gb card?22:25
Stskeepsit is 113mb tar.gzed22:25
lcuki mean install22:25
Stskeepsyeah, and i think it's like 350-400mb untarred22:26
wazdWow, Palm finaly realized that it's UI looks like "hello 80's?)22:26
lcukoooh, will the installer format correctly on such a small card?22:26
Stskeepslcuk: yeah, .. i think22:26
lcukwazd, wheres the palm announce page thingy22:28
RST38hwazd: ....and cloned iPhone.22:28
BrentDCConcerning Palm, I thought it would never happen22:28
RST38hsame here22:28
BrentDCThat's why I jumped ship earlier this year and bought an N80022:29
RST38hthe device is based on OMAP3 btw22:29
wazdI'm reading Engadget live from CES22:30
wazdDeffinitely an Egg)22:30
* Stslaptop pokes his dead server corpse (stskeeps)22:30
qwerty12_N800RIP server22:31
Stslaptopso not going outside in this cold to restart it22:31
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BrentDCOMAP3? Sweet.22:32
wazdI like the shot "Search: Û" ))22:32
r2d2rogersStslaptop: looks like there's one bit to adjust for the 770 Mer image... the read foo lines in the usbnet file22:32
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Stslaptopr2d2rogers: yeah, true22:32
Stslaptopr2d2rogers: weird center button != enter22:32
RST38h...a pinhole camera made of silver, gold, mercury, gem stones and a Tibetan monk skull blessed by a Lama...22:32
JaffaThat Palm device looks nice22:33
r2d2rogersStslaptop: right, other than that though it seems fine, unless you have the remounr ro on errors still there22:33
Stslaptop.. possibly22:33
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r2d2rogersStslaptop: do you want to add a default gateway to the USb net script?22:34
RST38hJaffa: Looks like a crude iPhone clone, if you ask me22:34
Stslaptopr2d2rogers: i'm thinking of handing it through /etc/network/interfaces22:34
RST38hJaffa: But maybe the devil is in the details somewhere? It is OMAP3 based, and so far there is only one UI screenshot22:34
Stslaptoplike it is in deblet22:34
r2d2rogersStslaptop: better <G>22:34
RST38hPalm claims that it is programmed in "CSS, HTML, and XML" - not a good sign22:35
JaffaRST38h: Except with Bluetooth, a physical keyboard, MicroUSB OTG, standards based development and not everywhere you look? ;-)22:35
lcuknot a bad sign either if the framework uses those as its core elements22:35
RST38hJaffa: Yea, but other iPhone clones have these too22:35
StslaptopRST38h: no OS, it's all in javascript22:35
Stslaptopor something22:35
* RST38h kinda hoped for some minor miracle from Palm22:35
lcukits omap3 though isnt it22:35
GeneralAntillesRST38h: screenshots:
JaffaRST38h: I read "if you *know* about CMSes, HTML, CSS, XML and JavaScript, you can develop for these" - which probably means Prism-based apps22:36
RST38hGeneral: =) thanks22:36
RST38hIt has got wireless charger, miracle wise22:36
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lcukthis nokia can be just as fast and slick at such a low resolution22:37
TheFatalthe gps is in /dev/pgps ?22:37
RST38hJaffa: What is Prism?22:38
RST38hlcuk: Not when it is running Symbian :)22:38
BrentDCThe sceenshots look pretty nice if you ask me :)22:38
lcukdoes the OS prevent you from accessing and altering memory bytes?22:39
lcukyeah BrentDC very slick22:39
TheFatalis the gps device in /dev/pgps ?22:39
JaffaRST38h: Mozilla's offline, try-to-fake-a-desktop-app-using-offline-web-apps technology22:39
lcukTheFatal, not sure22:39
TheFatalhow can i configure mapper then ?22:39
BrentDCAnd there is no way that is just Web-language stuff (even if it is called WebOS)22:39
Jaffalcuk: That's all well and good, but the tablet's *aren't* at that resolution. Of course, OMAP3'll do wonders on the RX-5122:40
lcukwhy shouldnt it be?  html/css can be used to give decent layout22:40
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StslaptopBrentDC: their CPU microcode is html and javascript, maybe ;>22:40
lcukjaffa, speak for yourself :) liqbase is at any resolution i want, and XV has just added an RGB mode which I assume will do the same22:40
JaffaBrentDC: indeed, most apps probably not. I imagine there's similar stuff though to what Symbian and Maemo have/are getting. Widgets? What did Nokia call them? You could scale that up to full-size apps reasonably well22:40
Stslaptop- / instruction set22:41
RST38hJaffa: ah22:41
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BrentDCAlthough CSS/Javascript can layout an application, those apps look far too "rich".22:42
lcukas long as the XHTML/CSS renderer can do things quickly you can script all the actions entirely and not know or care whats under it22:42
RST38hlcuk: js and css are both memory and cpu intensive22:42
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RST38hthe display update rate will be the smallest of your problems22:42
lcukBrentDC ? look too rich?  thats upto the designer22:42
lcukwe arent talking about a mega massive super site all in memory at once22:43
RST38hBrentDC: It is all fakeable in JS/CSS given some minor and straightforward enhancements like alpha channel support for images22:43
lcukits just a few pages with dynamic stuff, they havent got the res to do much more22:43
JaffaRST38h: and this is an OMAP3 processor, not exactly short of the fast stuff22:43
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RST38hJaffa: JS/CSS can slow down event a 80x8622:44
wazdoh, BTW, I've been fooling around with PS on holidays and came up with this
lcukRST38h, BAD JS/CSS can22:44
wazdIs it worth developing?)22:44
BrentDCWe'll see, I guess. I'd be even more impressed if it was just CSS/JS :)22:44
RST38hJaffa: So, much slower OMAP3 with cheaper and less power hungry memory does not stand a chance22:44
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RST38hlcuk: Well, JS/CSS make writing "bad" scripts really easy22:45
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lcukRST38h, come on, you know yourself you can code in a dirty wasteful manner or you can do things carefully and cleanly22:45
JaffaRST38h: Badly written C can slow down an 80x86, your point?22:45
RST38hJaffa: Yes, but JS/CSS is much easier to screw up. Way, way easier22:46
lcukbut this is a tiny tiny screen22:46
lcuknot much is capable of happening22:46
RST38hOf course, "one can write fortran in any language", but some are more than the others :)22:46
JaffaRST38h: I still don't see your point. You're saying noone would ever suggest using JS/CSS for a way of writing simple apps on their device, because it's easy for a crap developer to screw it up?22:46
doc|homeRST38h: they make writing scripts easier too :)22:46
wazdThe point is Omap3 will eat a lot less power to render such smooth UI than current CPU22:46
RST38hdoc: Yep, true22:46
JaffaRST38h: Except, to some extent, Apple, Google, Palm and Nokia are all encouraging that.22:47
RST38hJaffa: My point is that your average js/css app will be more wasteful than your average C/C++ app of the same functionality22:47
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wazdyou can't do UI if it's eating 100% of CPU time, like apple did22:47
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lcukand the same is true for asm apps22:47
RST38hJaffa: They do, they do, but how many serious js/css apps have you seen? iPhone devs plainly refused to write "web apps"22:47
RST38hJaffa: And jailbroke their devices22:48
JaffaRST38h: yes, JS apps are harder to execute but run within a "richer" and "more easy-to-use" environment.22:48
RST38hJaffa: does not matter to a user if it slows down to a crawl22:48
JaffaRST38h: Well, except lots *did* write iPhone web apps, and that wasn't the offline version we're positing here.22:48
wazdSo, what's with
RST38hLots? mmm...maybe a dozen or so, unless I am missing something22:49
JaffaRST38h: Well, duh. I'm still trying to understand your point?22:49
RST38hwazd: Nice design. Probably won't be used.22:49
RST38hJaffa: I directly stated my point above.22:49
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wazdShould I make an awful one to be used?)22:49
JaffaThat JavaScript apps are slower than an equivalent C app (assuming the absence of intelligent, adaptive JITs).22:49
JaffaWho's arguing with that?22:49
RST38hwazd: No, it is just that guys seem to be almost done with the new design (judging from their messages) and they won't change it any time soon22:50
JaffaThat doesn't mean that some companies aren't trying to make it easier to move Web technologies to desktops/devices to write fully-functional, offline, full-blown applications.22:50
lcukactually, depending on the library cant you breakeven - ie nice fast c/asm based UI lib and scripted app engine22:50
JaffaAnd that for a notepad-type app, there's no reason that couldn't be done in JavaScript, taking advantage of rich UI and persistence libraries22:51
lcukit was the reason visual basic worked ;)22:51
RST38hJaffa: You are going into some high level sociopoliticallyeconomic conclusions22:51
RST38hJaffa: But the point is much simpler22:51
RST38hJaffa: The point is that in an embedded device, you do not want to slow yourself down with all this glue.22:51
RST38hEVEN if it is possible to skate on it somehow, if you know the right moves.22:51
JaffaWho is this "you"? The *makers* of these devices are suggesting using JavaScript.22:52
Stslaptopwazd: so how long time in advance did you write your blog posts/designs? if you came up with a new one each day, that's impressive :)22:52
RST38hJaffa: But not using it themselves very activaly, are they? :)22:52
JaffaIs this just an updated version of your "Android sucks because it uses Java, a bytecode-based device will never be successful because you can't write a video player from scratch" argument? Or even the same one.22:52
RST38hJaffa: Let us call it a generalized version22:53
JaffaRST38h: Who knows, we haven't seen how the pre's OS is put together (although it's probably using "Web OS" as marketing and because it's designed to operate always-on, sharing data between services and using cloud-computing resources to manage your data)22:53
RST38hJaffa: But of course, you are free to believe what you wish and a good step in advancing your belief into the masses would be to create a nice lightweight JavaScript environment for NITs22:53
wazdStslaptop: well, 4 of them I had in sketches already. Others were been made each day :)22:54
lcukwazd, what do you do your layouts in?22:54
RST38hJaffa: Something that lets people create JS-based desktop widgets22:54
RST38hJaffa: Without taking too much RAM or CPU of course22:54
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JaffaRST38h: What, like Nokia are (supposedly) doing?22:55
* Jaffa isn't arguing from a position of personal belief, just observation.22:55
lcukRST38h, if you could use your emulib to load and manage the graphical assets but give a nice easy to use scripting (python?) manager would it be a serious amount slower/less efficient than currently?22:55
wazdI'm trying to learn Flash to make some "active" mockups22:55
RST38hJaffa: But I am also arguing based on observation really. I am just taking a dimmer, more realistic view of reality22:55
RST38hlcuk: Dunno. EMULib is really skin deep and won't be of much use like this22:56
RST38hlcuk: If you mean, use hw components emulation from EMULib and write missing hw emulation in Python, then it will be slow, sorry22:56
lcukwas just an example, my libliqbase has graphics and sketches and drawing tools and im thinking of putting a python front end on it to allow rapid prototyping/dev22:57
JaffaRST38h: How many apps are in the Android app store compared with Based on your generalised argument, and your definition of "success", the former number should be lower (perhaps by an order of magnitude or two)22:57
lcukit should be just as fast at drawing but a much lower level of entry22:57
RST38hlcuk: That will prbably work, just don't forget about creating actual apps :)22:57
RST38hJaffa: You took two arbitrary and different devices for comparison22:58
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RST38hJaffa: please, compare S60 vs Android, WinMobile vs Android, or iPhone vs Android, ok?22:58
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lcukRST38h, of course, im writing the lib so its logical to build from22:58
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lcuki wouldnt be doing it otherwise, the python bit will come as a natural extension of the hopefully sane api22:59
RST38hJaffa: also, the number of apps may not be an indication of anything. The number of j2me apps is humongous for example22:59
RST38hJaffa: 99% of them are shite though22:59
JaffaRST38h: What, you mean I *can't* generalise one bytecode-based device against another arbitrary non-bytecode based device? And yet, the other way round is fine?22:59
lcukRST38h, thats perfect though22:59
RST38hJaffa: When you compare, you should compare similar devices and similar marketplaces22:59
wazdomg, sprint has already launched flash-ads with Pre22:59
JaffaRST38h: Since when did "success" include quality? Most of the output of the X Factor finalist is shit, but it's still successful.23:00
RST38hAdBlock to the rescue :)23:00
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lcukheh, adblock the UI :D23:00
RST38hJaffa: Well, that is why you need to do comparisons correctly23:00
RST38hJaffa: You want really similar markets, and you probably need more than two23:01
StslaptopMeiz_n810: can i see your /var/log files from Mer at some point?23:02
RST38hAnd if 99% of android apps are Tetris clones, for example, or social network clients, you probably want to group23:02
lcukRST38h, btw im already porting the liqbase original apps to the new library and can get on with extending soon23:02
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RST38hlcuk: It may be nice to implement all the apps in pure Python23:02
RST38hlcuk: Unless they load for 40 seconds like Canola does of course :) (but Canola is doing some extra checking, according to handful and that takes time)23:03
lcukI might just do that one day, but its not a priority right now23:03
Jaffapython-launcher should help with startup time23:03
RST38hJaffa: It does not23:03
lcukand why should a python app take 40 seconds to start?23:03
lcukthough granted most apps take a horrid length of time23:04
wazdThe whole disappointment was the Pandora's UI. OMAP3 and old-skool win95 style, oh my(23:04
RST38hJaffa: Apparently, Canola spends most of its loading time dynamically loading Python modules and checking their versions23:04
RST38hJaffa: python-launcher can't predict that :)23:04
mgedminpython has this suboptimal imperative execution model23:04
RST38hwazd: Expecting *anything* from Pandora isn't a good idea23:04
mgedminyou don't load modules, you execute code that creates classes and functions at runtime23:04
mgedminhence, not a lot of opportunity for caching23:05
Stslaptopwazd: heh, 10 bucks they'd be on Mer on pandora like banana flies on a garbage bag in the sun.. :P23:05
JaffaRST38h: I meant for lcuk's apps23:05
mgedminand multiple python processes can't share the code23:05
RST38hJaffa: depends on how they are written I guess...A lot of Python apps start up "instantly" for me, even without py-launcher23:05
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Jaffawazd: That's just the default Matchbox stuff. And given they can't seem to get a case, who'd've spent time cooking up a whole new Linux mobile UI, which no-one had seen before.23:05
lcukjaffa, depends which way round i decide to do it - make liqbase a standard library, or allow python fragments from within23:05
Stslaptopb-man: status?23:06
mgedminhi, lcuk23:06
RST38hlcuk: Here is an idea:23:06
lcukhiya marius :) did you have a good xmas and new year?23:06
RST38hlcuk: Forget Python for now. Make a REALLY NICE high level C++ lib23:06
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lcukno, really nice low level c lib for talking to the screen, an intermediate lib for UI and whatever ontop.  if i use C++ i lose flexibility23:07
RST38hlcuk: It is actually a difficult design task: you want to design an API so, that 90% of apps can be coded in C++ almost like if it were a scripting language23:07
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b-manI'm working on getting a fuew minor bugs worked out23:07
Stslaptopb-man: alright, like?23:08
RST38hlcuk: Just provide alternative C API, not a big deal23:08
lcukwhy do work twice? just write it in C where im happy and the compiler is happy on device and then its usable everywhere :)23:08
RST38hlcuk: The C functions will of course look more cumbersome and take an extra pointer, ut so what23:08
RST38hlcuk: It is not doing the work twice really23:08
lcukit is since ive already got a shed load of the code and a workflow all sorted23:08
lcuki have targets23:09
* lcuk is behind though :S23:09
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RST38hlcuk: then having a C++ API would be more like putting some paint on an existing fence :)23:11
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lcukyeah - a c++ lick of paint on the existing lib will be good23:11
b-manthe option diolog for selecting the mer partition fails to start in the advanced installer.23:11
RST38hwazd: quick question: what website should I use for looking up a phone number in moscow?23:12
lcukbut thats not my priority23:12
r2d2rogersStslaptop: I install midori again, and it tried to pop up the h-i-m owhen I hit the address bar23:12
Stslaptopr2d2rogers: interesting - but probably not in the forms23:12
r2d2rogersI think it's missing some packages, but that's more than I got last time23:12
Stslaptopyeah, we actually install hildon-input-method correctly now and boot it :P23:13
b-manStslaptop: sorry for not being verry responsive today, i've ben a little busy :p23:13
r2d2rogersit's not getting the keys showing though23:13
wazdwell, if it's not private phone then yellowpages.ru23:14
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RST38hwazd: thanks23:14
r2d2rogersStslaptop: trying again after killing sapwood23:14
RST38hwazd: what if it is a private phone?23:15
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b-manStslaptop: how is the status on the image?23:15
r2d2rogerstaht's waht is was, it doesn't pop up without sapwood running23:15
r2d2rogersI had run midori from the telnet session23:15
Stslaptopb-man: johnx's first boot wizard is getting close to being done, and that'll be v0.623:16
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Stslaptopwe have some issues with osso-xterm and finding a proper wifi applet for Mer23:16
Stslaptopsince we don't have ICD and friends23:16
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wazdRST38: well, it's harder, cause all web-accessible Moscow DB's are very old23:16
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RST38hwazd: and do not seem to work23:16
JarodTLGHello everyone, I have just experianced a problem with my n810 that i'm not sure of the solution23:17
Stslaptopb-man: you used wifi-radar or what before?23:17
StslaptopJarodTLG: have you tried turning it off and on?23:17
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lcukhold down ctrl alt delete23:17
Stslaptopb-man: even on Mer?23:17
wazdhave you tried turning it just on?)23:17
JarodTLGthe menu is gone, i can click the icon, and it shows up, but theres no applications or anything23:17
JarodTLGand yea, i tried rebooting23:18
lcukall menu items gone? or are some there?23:18
wazdHave you installed something like Personal Menu?23:18
JarodTLGi cloned the os to the memory card, so i can boot off the internal and try to fix it23:18
b-manStslaptop: i have not tryed it in mer yet, but i'm shure it will work23:18
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JarodTLGnope, didnt install personal menu, everything is gone, no categorys, no icons, just a grey box23:19
Stslaptopb-man: feel free to try it :) we had issues with it earlier23:19
Stslaptop.. because we have a broken pygtk atm23:19
JarodTLGits been ok for a long time off the card, just last night it crapped out on me23:19
lcukJarodTLG, check the contents of "/home/user/.osso/menus/"23:19
qwerty12_N800cp /etc/xdg/menus/ /home/user/.osso/menus/23:19
lcuk:O omg i beat qwerty to posting something linuxy :D23:20
lcuk(i *only* know that because i needed to parse it to read the menu structures ;)23:20
* qwerty12_N800 awards lcuk with the linux northerner noobs award :p23:20
JarodTLGlooks like a bunch of gibberish, not a normal menu or xml type file23:20
JarodTLGstarts out ^B)q^A(U23:21
lcukits meant to be xml23:21
JarodTLGthen goes oncover_path^BU^Y/home/user/.canola/conversq^CU^Mdown23:21
JarodTLGnot xml, or vi doesnt understand xml23:22
lcukto my untrained eye that looks more like old fashioned crosslinked files23:22
JarodTLGon a unrelated note, how do you quit vi :)23:23
lcukis anything else dodgy or do you recall an event which started this off23:23
JarodTLGyea, its no xml file, canola stopped working after a stupid move i made, installed beta10 by accident, which is broken23:23
JarodTLGand i had to use the installation cleanup tool to fix it.23:24
JarodTLGthe menu still worked for a while tho23:24
JarodTLGbecause i checked and rolling back to canola2 beta9 fixed the not playing problem23:24
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JarodTLGif i do like qwerty said and copy /etc/xdg/menus/ overtop of the one in ~/.osso/menus can i put back the apps that i've installed somehow?23:26
RST38hHeh, MGTS *charges money* for its digital  phonebook23:26
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qwerty12_N800JarodTLG, you could probably do "update-desktop-database" on reboot. But as you don't currently have a menu, you have nothing to lose ;)23:27
JarodTLGyea, its worth a shot, i'll cp it over from the internal and boot off the card and see what happens23:28
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JarodTLGi'm on my pc now, so i'll let you know what it does23:28
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wazdRST38h: YouTube just banned my video because I had "unlicenced property of Linkin Park" in there23:30
Stslaptopand you probably had no music?23:30
wazdRST38h: World gone mad23:30
JarodTLGi have a menu again23:31
wazdStslaptop: Well, I had, and unlicensed for true, but to care about low quality mono youtube video, that the author haven't payed for it - this is really ridiculous23:31
mgedminreminds me of
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JarodTLGok, update-desktop-database, where should i point it?23:34
wazdI wonder if 3/4 of YouTube videos are banned23:34
wazdCause most of them uses "unlicensed" music23:35
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RST38hwazd: Screw Youtube23:38
JarodTLGaha, run as root. its fixed! Thanks a ton for your help everyone23:38
RST38hwazd: If you are embedding it anyway, upload to and forget.23:39
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RST38hlet 'em sue *that*23:39
wazdRST38h: the worst thing that i'm not(23:40
lcukRST38h, do russians get pissed off if anything they have created gets pirated?23:40
RST38hlcuk: They do but much less, they are realistic23:40
lcukie can i pirate your emulators?23:40
StslaptopRST38h: "gun to your head"? :P23:40
RST38hlcuk: You can if 1) you manage to hack them and 2) you do not distribute them further23:41
lcuk(tis just an example of course, but the principle remains we are in a creative industry23:41
wazdlcuk: you can definitely pirate my images :)23:41
RST38hSts: naaah, although there have been a couple of relatively large and noisy legal outbreaks23:41
lcukwazd :) put them under a CC license and make it official for everyone23:42
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RST38hSts: usually not bringing the plaintiff anything significant anyway23:42
lcukill drop the code as (l)gpl and we will see how far they get along :)23:42
RST38hwazd: I wonder if Wiki media project will take your video23:42
Stslaptopa collection of CC SA artwork for tablet could really be nice23:43
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lcukyeah it would :)23:43
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Stslaptopcos aesthetics is an area i'm absolute shite in23:43
RST38hSts: Why not look at the existing artwork in Wiki?23:43
StslaptopRST38h: huh?23:43
RST38hthere are hundreds of icons there23:43
Stslaptopor you mean wikipedia23:43
RST38hI mean wikipedia of course23:43
lcukwazd, btw, now you have seen a glimmer of my example usage for the icons, do you understand why i was very interested in ensuring they scaled well23:44
wazdlcuk: yep, but. Icons are made for special resolutions.23:46
wazdThey can't be resized properly to other reses23:47
lcuksure they can : simple designs scale well23:47
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mgedminSVG icons scale up to devices with high resolutions23:48
mgedminnot so well to devices with low resolutions where you can actually see the pixels23:48
mgedminthose need fine-tuning23:48
wazdMinimalistic design is not very eye0catching23:48
lcukbut the world exists in multiple scales23:48
wazdSVG icons can't use complex effects like shadows for example23:49
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RST38hEven SVG won't help you if you haeve got tiny details there23:49
GeneralAntillesUnfortunately vector images have a rather large performance impact on low-power mobile devices.23:49
RST38hwazd: they can, actually, if renderer supports it23:49
RST38hGeneral: Unless you cache them23:49
lcukyeah GeneralAntilles my vector sketches dont work23:49
wazdI think it will ruin the CPU)23:50
RST38hSymbian/S60 caches them, but not very well, at least not on my poor E7023:50
* mgedmin was looking for a nice blog post with actual examples demonstrating why SVG isn't the one answer to rule them all23:50
* mgedmin can't find the link :(23:50
lcukof course its not23:50
* lcuk never put in svg support to liqbase because then users would have expected mona lisa 23:51
mgedminthe postscript tiger23:51
wazdFor now, vector icons are useless for mobile UI's, cause on a mobile device the main factor is CPU load, which affects battery life and responsivity23:51
* mgedmin was floored when he first saw that one23:52
lcukwazd, i can draw vector graphics faster and in a more battery efficient way than scaling a bitmap23:52
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* mgedmin imagined, at the time, that people created postscript files by typing in the postscript commands by hand23:52
RST38hwazd: Ironically, Nokia's S60 uses SVG icons as a standard starting with S60e323:52
RST38hwazd: So, no, not useless23:52
mgedminspeaking of which, google for the obfuscated postscript code contest23:52
Stslaptopmgedmin: i have a manual somewhere for postscript..23:53
Stslaptopor at least, in my old room at my dads23:53
RST38hmgedmin: The Tiger is a reference image, but I have heard there is playable postscript tetris :)23:53
lcukvector based flash animations work on machines which cannot even update the whole screen23:53
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wazdRST38h: Well, as I can see they are pretty simple ones23:54
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RST38hwazd: That is mainly because of the low resolution23:54
wazdI wonder how much CPU would it take to render that
RST38hwazd: Still, nokia solves the scaling problem this way23:54
lcukfor something that is going to be 1cm square for most of its life why do you need more detail?23:55
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lcukwazd, its a 256color gif.. wheres the svg?23:55
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RST38hlcuk: Maybe for a rare case when you want to render it in 5cm scale when starting your app? :)23:55
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lcukyeah, you do the same as flash and liqbase : at lower res you reduce quality :)23:56
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RST38hwazd: This image cannot be rendered as an .svg23:56
lcukbut you can do that with vector23:56
lcukRST38h, sure it can23:56
RST38hwazd: it has got a bitmap inside23:56
lcukwould bring a dualcore to its knees though23:56
lcukRST38h, its possible but not practical23:57
wazdThis pic was just an example of current level of detail in icons23:57
RST38hUnless .svg now allows textures23:57
RST38hwazd: But you do not really need this level of detail23:57
RST38hI, for once, do not need icons this detailed. Lemme see if I can find the SAME icon in SVG. A moment.23:58
wazdRST38h: do I really need infinite scaling?)23:58
lcukand anyway - i see that more as a widget :: a live image in the background owuld be better23:58
RST38hwazd: Well, you need 3-4 sizes, most of the time23:58
RST38hwazd: Doing them by hang is damn cumbersome though23:58
wazdRST38h: iPhone, for example, needs 2. Standart and superlarge (for iTunes Store)23:58
wazdSo basicaly only one23:59
RST38hThat is iPhone23:59
RST38hS60 needs 323:59
RST38hMaemo needs 3.23:59
wazdQuallity of UI affects on how many different icons you need23:59
RST38hWindows is ok with 2, but I guess looks better with 4-523:59
wazdAnd user cases ofcourse23:59

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