IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2007-12-16

p|ok :) so now i need a _VERY_ little powered usb hub00:00
alteregoYou can pick them up for ~40 USD00:01
p|and a god little usb keyboard00:01
alteregoYeah, I bought a 21" wide USB keyboard.00:01
p|21" = cm ? ;-)00:01
shackanthat hardly qualifies as little00:02
alteregoOh .. cm yeah ^_^00:02
alteregoI'm a giant ;)00:02
p|for now i haven't found any little or foldable usb keyboard00:02
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hugolpwhy would you want a usb keyboard when you can get a foldable bt one for 40 euros?00:06
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p|because i hope usb keyboard are better ? :)00:10
p|now i have a dell XTBT01 (bluetooth)00:10
p|but it didn't work very well00:11
p|many times ENTER,BACKSPACE and other keys stop to work00:11
p|i must restar the tablet to make them work again00:12
p|don't know why00:12
fysayou using generic keyboard profile?00:12
fysaor the nokia profile>00:12
fysaI think a different bt keyboard would suit you.00:12
p|i've see also the apple one00:13
fysaI don't experience that problem -- from time to time a key will stick for a second, and the response time isn't quite as quick as it should be00:13
fysai.e., using same bt keyboard with PC feels 'instant'00:13
p|fysa, this is why i hope usb keyb. will be better00:14
fysaautocompletion seems to still be on00:16
fysaI wish I could keep that off for real keyboard at all times, and only have it set for vkb.00:17
fysait could be a power saving bt mode.00:17
ol_schoolai propose that granularity over the little controls (ie: AutoUpper, AutoSpace) that power users want to get to should be unveiled when Red Pill mode is activated. that way, Nokia can Keep It Simple for the Joe Sixpack, and we get more felxibility00:20
fysaI really think the key is, whatever keyboard you select, use a similar layout/keyspacing on your desktop machine(s) and your life will be more enjoyable.00:20
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fysathough I can't imagine ever trying to learn a frogpad for desktop use. ;)00:21
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ol_schoolai meant for behavior across the entire device.00:21
ol_schoolain other words, open up more control of the closed source stuff via Red Pill mode00:22
ol_schoolait IS what the brothers meant by the Red Pill, isn't it?00:22
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p|<tontsa> using the xterm in fullscreen and installed the Google Android fonts00:29
p|where ?00:29
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tontsap|: and copy the system/fonts to /usr/share/fonts and restart n81000:30
halleyShould .deb that puppy, eh?00:31
tontsavery good looking monospace font for terminal usage00:31
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ol_schoolaToni_:  thx for that, great tip00:33
dragornToni_: droid-mono?00:35
dragorner, tontsa rather00:35
p|tontsa, work also on n800 w/os2008 ?00:35
fysano reason it shouldn't00:35
tontsashould work on any computer that supports truetype fonts00:35
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tontsadragorn, there's only one monospace font there so i think yes. don't have n810 right now with me00:36
dragorntontsa: droid-mono is an excellent font, for whatever reason I hadn't considered putting it on the 8x000:37
p|18mb of font ;-)00:44
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K`zanAnyone got one of the I-Go stoaway keyboards?  If so do i do a regular BT pairing or do I need to do the pairing from the control panel->bt keyboard menu entry?00:58
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fysano videocenter for os2008 yet?01:47
p|tontsa, fonts look really well also at 8pt :)01:47
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pupnikThere is no date set for discount code activation, but Qgil says he expects them next week01:49
hillctalso no working mPlayer01:49
fysamplayer is out for os2008 and works01:49
hillctthe test package seems to be missing a dependency01:49
fysausing it regularly here01:49
hillctfysa: URL?01:49
K`zanWhere is it hidden :-)?01:49
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hillctfysa: the dependency appears to be libmad0 >= 0.15.0 or so...01:51
fysadid you setup the proper repositories?01:51
hillctI'm not going to setup the whole extras dev repository01:51
fysahold on01:51
hillctI just need the det of dependencies for mplayer01:51
fysa.. they're defined in the .,deb01:52
hillctcan't afford to have all the other dev brokenness01:52
fysadev is fine.01:52
hillctdispite all the warnings...01:52
fysanothing broken because of adding dev01:52
fysaI have ever repository available and have no ill results01:52
hillctdocs suggest lots of the dev apps are quite incomplete01:52
fysahaving the repo won't kill you.01:52
fysainstalling things randomly might01:52
hillctexcept if I do an update carelessly01:52
hillctwithout disabling it01:53
fysabut mplayer will work fine, and most apps will complain.01:53
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hillctyeah, I suppose so...01:53
fysaI update from Application Catalog fine.01:53
fysaand apt-get dist-upgrade won't work anyway01:53
fysaneither will apt-get upgrade01:54
hillctwhile I have you here, The default root password seems to have changed as of OS200801:54
hillctI tried SSHing in and rootme doesn't work01:55
fysathe recommendation I've seen is to use gainroot.01:55
fysafrom an old repo01:55
fysa(it's just a script, so it's not platform specific)01:55
fysathe becomeroot package01:55
hillctso remote login as root has been disabled?01:55
fysainstall becomeroot01:55
fysaand it will request you to set a root password01:56
fysaone sec01:56
hillctmy point being, I found it mroe reliable to just login remotely as root( in OS2007) and update /etc/sudoers. No need for gainroot01:56
p|'night all !01:56
hillctI guess that's changed in 200801:56
fysaI login remotely as root.01:56
fysait's fine.01:56
fysayou only sudo gainroot for local xterm01:56
fysathat is the new default operation.01:57
hillctexactly my point01:57
fysayou can still update /etc/sudoers01:57
fysayou just need gainroot to get root the first time01:57
hillctas you say, I should be able to login remotely as root without issue01:57
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fysalisten, this is what you need to do:01:57
fysainstall that deb01:57
fysarun it01:57
fysaset a root password01:57
fysathen you can ssh TO your N800/whatever with root and that password.01:58
fysano sudo with ssh01:58
hillctI get it. I'm just suprised it's needed in 2008 and wasn't in 200701:58
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hillctno big deal. I'll go through gainroot01:58
fysawith 2007 you had to set R&D mode otherwise01:58
hillctstrangely, I didn't have to01:58
fysathere is no need to R&D mode with 2008 from what I see01:58
fysaI couldn't 'sudo gainroot' or get root any way without installing becomeroot01:58
fysaor setting red pill(?)/R&D01:59
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fysathere are inconsistencies, but at this level nothing is going to hurt anyone01:59
alteregoYou were doing it wrong then :P01:59
hillctguess the difference is, root account starts out locked in 2008, whereas it didn't in 200701:59
alteregoI had r&d enabled, changed the root password and the user password. Then disabled r&d01:59
fysaright, and isn't it still to have root open?01:59
fysaer, isn't it silly?01:59
hillctdepends what you're doing I suppose02:00
* hillct grabs gainroot02:00
fysafor 80% of users who don't know what root means02:00
alteregoYou really think that 80% of maemo users _don't_ know what 'root' means ..02:00
alteregoI think that's naive. Sure, in the future it should be like that but it's blatantly not the case now ..02:01
fysayou don't think they can make a market out of people with linux/unix knowledge, do you?02:01
hillctusers are - on the whole - stupid02:01
fysait's naive to think most maemo users are as savvy as us.02:01
alteregoI still think the highest selling point is the fact it runs Linux for a lot of people.02:02
hillctwhat's truly iritating though....02:02
fysacertainly, but that's a different market02:02
alteregoThat's the current market.02:02
fysaaccording to?02:02
alteregoMy guess02:02
tontsaatleast over here n8x0 is marketed as ebook reader/webbrowser/media player02:02
hillctis I was asked to help a neighbor yesterday, with her Vista PC. I hadn't used Windoze since Win2K02:02
hillctvery scary02:02
fysayou can't market this as a linux device, no one would buy it and they couldn't afford to produce it.02:03
alteregoWho said anything about marketing?02:03
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hillctI'm suprised they can afford to produce it as is...02:03
tank-manonly marketing i've seen is word of mouth02:03
alteregoI'm trying to point out that the majority of current maemo users probably know what 'root' is.02:03
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fysahere is how it works:  1) identify the desired market 2) produce for the desired market 3) market for the desired market 4) sell to the desired market -- if 4 doesn't work, adjust #2 or #302:03
alteregoI'd say 80% of maemo users know what 'root' is. Which is the opposite of what you said.02:04
fysalook at who they are marketing to, and you will see who they WANT to sell it to.02:04
fysathey may know the word 'root'02:04
fysabut they don't know that if someone can gain root on your device, they can access /media/mmc1, /home/user, /media/mmc202:04
fysabrowser cache02:04
fysaemail account settings02:04
alteregoThey can do that as 'user' ..02:04
hillctalterego: you're probably correct but that's only due to a failure of marketing, not a function of the adverage inteligence of consumer electronics customers02:04
fysamy point is that leaving root open is a bad idea.02:05
alteregohillct, sure. But that's not really the point :P02:05
alteregoYes, I agree.02:05
fysabecause most people don't understand the implications.02:05
alteregoLeaving root open is a bad idea :)02:05
hillctalterego: I know02:05
hillctI was just trying to be Agreeable :)02:05
alteregoAgreeable with a capital 'A'! :D02:05
hillctat least I spelled it correctly02:06
hillctremember, the average inteligence of consumer electronics customers...02:06
alteregoI think we all know that Nokia want the internet tablets to be mass market devices for everyone. And in the future I think they've got a good chance. The platform has matured greatly over the past 3 years.02:06
alteregoThe biggest problem for them, from what I can see. Is the amount of quality software.02:07
* shackan agrees02:07
hillctand the maturity of Voip02:07
hillctIt took Palm a at least 4 years to develop a large enough developer base02:08
alteregoI'm thinking they'll probably need to employ a few more application developers to beef up their software list.02:08
hillctthey went through three generations of hardware in that time02:08
shackanit's too bad there's ie. a webcam and no way to make video calls (unless you have gtalk, but I know nobody who does)02:08
alteregohillct, sounds quite similar to how Nokia are moving now.02:08
alteregoThough the N8X0's are pretty much the same generation.02:09
hillctpretty much02:09
alteregoActually, scrap that.02:09
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alteregoThe N810 is the next gen, it has a keyboard and GPS.02:09
hillcter pretty much the same growth pattern02:09
alteregoI'd say that's enough to push it into the next stage of evolution.02:09
hillctwithout the extra investment in hardware02:09
tontsa.. where the GPS is totally botched02:09
alteregoI disagree.02:09
alteregoI think the GPS sounds good.02:09
alteregoBut I don't have an N810 .. Yet ..02:09
tontsait sounds good, but it doesn't work in real life02:10
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alteregoHow so?02:10
tontsaatleast i still haven't been able to lock on more than 3 satellites with it02:10
tontsaand when comparing to bluetooth gps dongle it just sucks02:10
alteregoThere have been a few complaints. But I've also heard people that are very happy with it.02:10
tontsawell it's totally unusable atleast in urban environment, where the nokia's regular gps dongle performs just fine02:11
alteregoI'd guess they use the same reciever ..02:12
tontsano clue what chip is inside n810, but it's bad. or the antenna is bad02:12
alteregoIt's not bad.02:13
alteregoIt's a good chip.02:13
alteregoHmm, VM's are quite a bit slower when running under 64 bit hipervisor :/02:14
alteregoGreat .. Another damn reinstall -_-02:14
tontsawell you need one more level of pagetables to support 64bit so it doesn't come as a huge surprise02:15
alteregoIt seems _very_ sluggish ..02:15
tontsayou prolly run some onboard SATA right?02:16
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alteregoA single SATA 250G drive.02:16
alteregoI don't see what that has to do with a performance hit when moving from 32 to 64 bit :P02:17
tontsayeah could be the disk access too then, atleast in my experience the ich5/6 drivers suck in 64bit02:17
alteregoWouldn't that effect my host system as well?02:18
alteregoWell, my host system seems to run fine ..02:18
tontsawhy did you switch to 64bit?02:19
alteregoFelt like it ..02:19
alteregoSeems a waste having a 64 bit CPU and not using it :P02:19
tontsawell if you have intel or amd "64" bit cpu then it's just few registers that are 64bit, otherwise it's pretty much illusion02:19
tontsaand you only see real benefit in math intensive stuff02:20
alteregoYeah. It's a Core2Duo02:20
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tontsaotherwise it's just waste to have 4 megabyte block sized memory compared to 4kilobyte units.. unless of course you have more than 16 gigs and wanna use it well02:21
alteregoSo you think it's pointless using 64 distro then?02:21
elbyou can use 64-bit instructions without using 4MB pages02:22
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elbthose two things are orthogonal02:22
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tontsayeah you can, but the benefit is marginal in most real life situations02:22
elbx86-64 is definitely a pile of tradeoffs, though ... you get quite a few more general purpose registers (relative to the anemic x86 instruction set), but you double the size of pointers and have longer instructions02:23
alteregoI should probably run some benchmarks to be sure really.02:23
tontsaalterago, atleast i think so. if you don't have more than 16 gigs of memory of specific tasks where you need the memory or "math" bandwidth02:23
elbvery few things actually benefit from 64-bit math, yeah02:23
elbbut you *do* get more registers02:23
elbwhich is Good02:23
alteregoBut you get slow hipervised VM's .. Which is bad ..02:24
alteregoI plan on using KVM extensively.02:24
elbI don't know why that would be the case, particularly, but I don't follow the VM scene, so it may be02:25
alteregoIt's a _lot_ slower ..02:25
tontsai'm guessing you need to restore more state between the VMs when in 64bit02:25
alteregoYes, that would be my guess too.02:26
elbof course -- if nothing else, you have 4x or more data in the register file02:26
alteregoThough, I wouldn't have thought it would have created this much over head.02:26
elbbut I don't know what that would make it a "_lot_" slower -- there must be more to it02:27
alteregoThis is a 32bit guest in a 64bit hipervisor.02:27
derfAny software that uses enough pointers that doubling them matters much deserves what it gets.02:33
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halleyIt's usually not the 64bit math but the 64bit memory.02:34
halleyI can *easily* fill 2GB or even 20GB with image data.  I work with jet engine engineering routines that need many gigs of lookup tables.02:35
derfYeah, no kidding.02:36
derfBut most of that data isn't pointers!02:36
derfI find my software tends to run quite a bit faster on 64-bit systems.02:37
alteregoDo you use KVM or Xen?02:37
alteregoWhat processor?02:37
hillctfysa: gainroot worked like a champ02:37
derfDoesn't matter.02:38
alteregoI'm just curious :P02:38
derfWell, I first noticed it on the original 64-bit Athlons.02:38
hillctstill not clear on why I was able to login as root without it or R&D mode using OS2007. Guess it doesn't much matter02:38
alteregoWhat kind of apps do you normally run?02:38
derfBut it holds just as well on the Core2's.02:38
derfalterego: I'm talking about software I write.02:38
derfI don't benchmark random applications.02:39
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alteregoI can't say I've noticed much performance difference between 32 and 64 on this, (except the virtualization stuff)02:39
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alteregoIt all seems fast to me ^_^02:39
alteregoConsidering my previous machine was a crappy old 1.2Ghz Sempron02:40
derfWell, the typical desktop user's CPU spends 99% of its time idle.02:40
alteregoYes, I've noticed that ^_^02:40
alteregoMy graph applet is all black ..02:40
alteregoLooks like I'm gonna have to use express delivery if I want my N810 before Christmas now ..02:41
alteregoThat's provided the codes are activated before the 19th.02:41
derfI'd very much like to get mine by then, since I'm going out of town on the 26th.02:42
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alteregoI'd love to get it by Christmas eve .. As I tend to get drunk and lost a lot at that time of year ^_^02:42
shackanand what on earth would you do while drunk on a tablet?02:44
zerojayDo what I did.02:44
zerojayDrunk dial from the bar.02:44
zerojayOver and over again.02:44
hillctuse it to watch porn of course...02:44
shackanyou sir, are a major nerd02:44
pupnikalcohol+tablet = dropped tablet :/02:44
steristill no canola2 :(02:45
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hillctmaybe they need a loop for a lanyard in the next hardware so it can reliably be used when drunk02:46
hillctbecause after all, that's when the GPS is most valuable02:46
alteregoLuckily the drops my tablet has had to endure have been very soft landings :)02:46
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Toma-Does anyone know if a 6110 navigator can be used with a 770 as a GPS device?03:19
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zapadadoes vnc work well on the n800?04:19
zapadaand does x forwarding work on the n800?04:19
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GAN800Anybody else having issues with the desktop crashing when a bluetooth keyboard wakes from sleep?05:27
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GAN800Well hello there, thoughtfix. Unusual to see you 'round this neck of the woods. :)05:38
thoughtfixNah... I've been trying to IRC more05:39
GAN800It's a good place to be. ;)05:39
thoughtfixThat and you all keep me company while I am without an N81005:39
GAN800Haha, had to send it back to Nokia then, I suppose?05:40
thoughtfixIt was a pre-release, after all05:41
GAN800The N800 is a better machine anyway. ;)05:42
thoughtfixMmm ... Not for mobile blogging05:42
thoughtfixand I want one for the CES show floor05:42
thoughtfixThe N800 is a better media machine, to be sure.05:42
halleyIsn't that in March or something?05:42
thoughtfixCES? Second week of January05:42
halleyOh, earlier than I thought.05:42
halleyI guess I needed a thought fix.05:43
thoughtfixWant to know how I came by "thoughtfix?"05:44
halleyIs there a way to package things up into install debs ON the device?  Scratchbox isn't for OSX.05:44
thoughtfix.... Parallels or VMWare? ;)05:44
thoughtfix<3 parallels05:44
* halley shudders.05:44
halleyI guess that's an option but ugh.05:45
pupnikyes thoughtfix05:45
thoughtfixParallels or VMWare will give you a native dev environment for Scratchbox.05:46
thoughtfixpupnik: I started googling, then punching stuff through thesaurus sites, and more.05:47
thoughtfixThoughtfix had zero google results05:47
thoughtfixSo I kept it05:47
halleyThe 2000's equivalent of the 'Grateful Dead' story.05:48
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shackanoh, thoughtfix in "person"05:48
thoughtfixYou say that like I am famous05:49
halleyI guess the question now is, is that "fix" like "spay"?05:49
GAN800That's not far from the truth around here. :P05:49
thoughtfix<-- trying to be just another guy of the community.... Except one who bugs PR people more :D05:49
thoughtfixYes... the words were "brain neuter"05:49
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ol_schoolanot in front of the children halley05:50
thoughtfixWhat was that?05:51
halleyutf-8 kanji:  omou naosu, or thought fix.05:51
thoughtfixNow I have to save it :)05:51
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thefoolany word on the canola release?05:52
shackanthoughtfix: I just rehashed your n800 disassembly video a couple of days ago to see if there's any possibility to mod it into a different case + a homemade keyboard, since I have an unused leather 'box' (it's like a wallet, but rigid) at home which fits the n800 perfectly05:52
halleyHm, is there poetic justice if "canola" is to "slip"?05:52
shackanthefool: no, sorry, now pull your pants on please05:52
ol_schoolathoughtfix: tramp-stamp!05:53
thoughtfixMy brain/tool logo is my next tattoo ... going under my collar (brain stem!)05:53
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* thefool is so confused right now05:53
thoughtfixshackan: I think it's possible to build your own case but it won't be as secure.05:54
shackanyeah, I tought that05:54
thoughtfixhalley: Slip as in "leak out?"05:54
GAN800I'd be worried about durability with a custom case.05:55
halleyslip as in canola oil slick, or slip as in schedule shift05:55
GAN800Can you imagine them shipping canola oil around in super-tankers?05:55
thoughtfixGAN800: Exactly - I'd worry about ANY flex. That board is not made to bend05:55
shackanthoughtfix: the thing would be closed with a zip (so pieces won't fly accidentally) when not in use and then would hold open like a microlaptop, at least that's what I had in mind05:55
infobotshackan meant: thoughtfix: the thing would be closed with a zip (so pieces won't fly accidentally) when not in use and then would fold open like a microlaptop, at least that's what I had in mind05:56
GAN800Mobile devices tend to be designed to put stress on the case, a custom case is going to put stress right on the device componentsw05:56
* pupnik tries to console himself with the idea that tooling and QC on the production line will improve over the first batch05:56
GAN800which is bad.05:56
thoughtfixshackan: Could be a challenge.05:57
halleyI've not really seen the N810 as being delicate.  Slippery as a bar of wet soap, yes.  Delicate, not really.05:57
GAN800To make up for the fact that you're never actually going to get yours, pupnik? :P05:57
* pupnik sits in a corner and eats lentils mournfully05:58
ol_schoolathoughtfix: speaking of slippery/wet, i should dig up thte irc log detailing my n800's unplanned swimming trip05:58
thoughtfixWhy mournfully?05:58
thoughtfixWhat happened?05:58
ol_schoolalemme find the log....05:59
halleyWho owns the infobot?  They should be shot.05:59
pupnikit rolled down the stairs05:59
pupnikinfobot is fine05:59
GAN800ol_schoola, it did come out OK in the end, right?05:59
ol_schoolai'll do a re-write as an after action report05:59
shackanpupnik: ...and ?05:59
ol_schoolayes it lives05:59
pupnikthoughtfix: well .. things aint so hot over here.05:59
GAN800It's the anti-botism channel here.05:59
GAN800First _Monkey, now infobot . . . where will it end?!06:00
shackanresistance in futile06:01
infobotshackan meant: resistance is futile06:01
thefoolhey..I like that06:02
GAN800close it06:02
* halley rolls his eyes.06:03
thoughtfixdestroy world06:03
thoughtfix"It was a bad period day"06:03
halleys/shot/`rm -rf \/`/e06:04
ol_schoolafound it! it is at 07:40
zerojayIf you need a bot to tell you what s/foo/bar means, you're in the wrong channel. :)06:05
pupnikanybody know where N810s are manufactured?06:06
halleyol_schoola, er, no timestamps?06:06
shackanpupnik: wanna grab one off a truck leaving the factory? :D06:07
pupnikcurous about costs, exchange rates, how much the dollar slide will hurt N810 sales etc06:07
pupnikbut it's probably sekrit06:07
ol_schoolahalley: stamps are on the right side06:08
halleyOh, quality html.06:08
thoughtfixThat is a big log there06:08
* ol_schoola will be back in 506:09
halleySounds like a very long process to dry it out.  Some folks say "stick it in a toaster oven" but low pressure is better than elevated heat.  Put it on the SUCTION side of a large housefan for an hour.  Voila.06:11
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pupnikor a lab-grade dessicator06:15
pupnikwell ... vacuum might break something :)06:15
pupnikinsects do amazingly well in a vacuum btw06:15
dragornpupnik: problem w/ your 810?06:16
* pupnik pours soup on dragorn06:16
unique311the internet is boring now.  random06:21
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ol_schoolasorry bout that, Mr Plow came around. we have a deal -- he steps in for a cuppa, i get to do the cul-de-sac06:23
ol_schoolathe biggest frontend loader i've ever operated, has a full size plow on it06:24
ol_schoolapupnik: would have if i could. the QA/shipping were i used to work had all the enviro chambers. neat stuff06:25
pupnikthe internet is going to get very exciting in about 1/2 hour :)  ~T-E-A P-A-R-T-Y!~  :D :D :D06:28
dragornif that's anything like lemonparty, get out now :P06:29
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halleyI'm thinking more like Boston Tea Party.06:30
dragornI suppose I should try to find out what this packet corruption nonsense people are complaining about is06:31
pupnik  You can watch history being made tomorrow here... :)06:35
pupnik25 minutes to blastoff :)06:35
shackanam I missing something?06:35
pupnikA new record for campaign donations06:35
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shackanso what?06:36
* halley didn't realize he was in #politics.06:36
shackanpupnik: 100k is a drop in the water for a presidential campaign06:37
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pupnikThis is just the first breeze before the storm.  :)  Those first wafts of wind.  Blastoff in 22 minutes :)06:38
halleyNullifying *!n=pupnik@* for 1 hour.06:38
shackanWAAAT happens in 22 minutes?06:39
GAN800It's #maemo, halley.06:39
GAN800We discuss a lot of things.06:39
shackanand I'm curious06:40
halleyIt's not a discussion, it's fanboi politics.06:40
GAN800Only because you write it off as such.06:41
zerojaySo why do we need to know that you have him "nullifiied" then?06:41
zerojayWho cares?06:42
* halley shrugs.06:42
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thoughtfixEver see that movie Twins?06:42
zerojayLong time ago.06:42
thoughtfixDanny DeVito and some big guy who spoke funny?06:42
shackanwith schwarzie?06:42
thoughtfixLet's take the "genetic material" from all the male candidates06:43
thoughtfixAnd make a supercandidate06:43
thoughtfixand implant it in Hillary06:43
zerojayDidn't the Nazis already try that?06:43
shackanzerojay: I tought dna was discovered in the sixties06:43
zerojayshackan: Oh, so you think the Nazis just kind of went away after 1945?06:44
zerojayHillary's 200 years old, so that's not a problem.06:44
shackanok, this doesn't make any sense06:45
zerojayAnyone else see that page of horrible Hillary pics? Just hilarious.06:45
shackanat least Godwin was proven right once again..06:45
zerojayNone touched up.06:45
zerojayJust taken at the worse possible times when she's got her mouth wide open... that sort of thing.06:45
pupnikstructure of dna was watson and crick, they knew about it before then though06:48
thoughtfixshe may be old06:49
thoughtfixbut I'd still hit it06:49
pupnikthoughtfix: the gps performance in your vid seemed pretty good.  Surprised by the number of complaints about it06:49
zerojaythoughtfix: With a baseball bat, maybe.06:49
thoughtfixpupnik: The performance is good but lock-on times are still slow.06:49
pupnikdid the contest for the n810 video end yet?06:50
thoughtfixYep... And some contestants have their prizes already06:50
zerojayIs Reggie still going through with that idea that the ITT community will vote for someone to get a free N810?06:51
thoughtfixI hope the winner gets her N810 soon06:51
dragornpupnik: My 810 gps is disappointing06:51
dragornpupnik: Another friends took an hour to get a lock, too.  But I'm used to a sirf3, I don't know what's in there06:51
pupnikwho won?  i can't find the poll atm06:53
pupnikher daughter is awesome06:59
pupnik"look!  music!" <dances>06:59
pupnikheeeere weeeee gooooo! :)07:00
shackanso, who?07:01
pupnikJennifer, jdsvid07:02
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shackanpupnik: I was talking about the election07:03
pupnikthe moneybomb for Ron Paul has begun :) teaparty07.com07:04
shackanoh, fine07:04
shackanwhatever that means..07:04
pupnikBuon giorno shackan :)07:06
thoughtfixI can find no fault in Ron Paul because I can find no stands he's taken.07:07
thoughtfixFor or against abortion? For or against gay marriage? Style of educational funding? I can't find it.07:07
zerojayI'm glad I don't ever have to think about those questions in Canada.07:09
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pupnikHoly hell... $15,000 per minute the last couple minutes.07:11
zerojayWe don't care.07:11
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GAN800thoughfix, if it's not in the Constitution, then he's against it. :)p07:20
pupnik_Elevation:  $200,000, cruising speed: $400,000/hr07:23
GAN800You don't need to read it, zerojay.07:23
GAN800Not like anything else important is happening. :P07:24
thefoolpupnik: he has no chance of actually winning, get over it07:24
GAN800That's a nice attitude07:25
thoughtfixThere's good reason behind it07:25
thoughtfix  <-- too many things to not like07:25
thoughtfixto dislike07:25
GAN800Like what?07:25
GAN800What's with the hate on personal freedom and responsibility these days?07:26
GAN800Why does the government need to babysit everybody?07:26
thefoolhow about him calling the ICC a threat to our soverneigty07:26
shackanpupnik_: I tought elections were won over votes rather than funding07:26
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GAN800funding helps to get votes. ;)07:26
zerojayMy problem is that I just don't see the excitement about giving yet another old white guy money just like every other time before when people that could really use that money, like the homeless are freezing out there during the Christmas holidays.07:27
GAN800You try and run a campaign for president with no money.07:27
zerojayAnd I certainly don't need second by second updates about how much money is being wasted on it either.07:27
GAN800zerojay, the homeless have plenty of opportunities available to them.07:27
thefoolHe is old and ugly, Americans are stupid and shallow. I will say it again; Not a chance!07:27
GAN800There are dozens of shelters in any city of decent size.07:27
shackanwho has the best hair among the candidates?07:28
thefoolGAN800: and they are ALL full at ALL times07:28
pupnik_shackan: the news media has been ignoring the campaign, as he is a threat to the vested interests, the political elite, and the corporate welfarists :)  The money bomb is a way to show support and get media coverage.07:28
GAN800You have some numbers to back that claim up, thefool?07:28
thefoolshackan: now thats something Americans would be willing to decide a presidency on07:28
pupnik_  <<< stats for grassroots support07:29
thefoolto back what up exactly?07:29
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shackanthefool: tall guy, best hair, is how it works07:29
GAN800You claim that all shelters are full all the time.07:29
GAN800I disagree07:29
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GAN800Around here, shelters turn away a lot of people because they don't accept you when you're drunk or high.07:30
thefoolI have allegorical proof... the tall guy best looks that doesn't do something stupid wins the caucus.07:30
shackanpupnik_: ok, but those are private citizens, right? not big corporations, it doesn't make sense.. why would they waste their money like that?07:30
zerojayBecause they think it's going to change things.07:30
zerojayIt won't.07:30
pupnikshackan: it's an investment in future prosperity and liberty07:30
shackanok, wow07:30
GAN800Yes, zerojay, sitting back and taking it is the way to do it. :P07:30
zerojayYou lost all of that long again.07:30
thefoolGAN800: ah that I only have allegorical proof on, I am in South Florida. I have visited Atlanta, Georgia and in both I frequently go to homeless shelters to try and help out.07:31
shackanpupnik: you're sounding just like an idealistic naive idiot, y'know?07:31
GAN800What's wrong with trying to get it back.07:31
pupnikshackan: i know, Dr. Paul cured my apathy! :)07:31
shackansigh, poor soul...07:31
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GAN800Attitudes like that are how we got here in the first place.07:31
thefoolAnd I always see the shelters shut their doors while there are lines wrapping around the block07:31
shackanGAN800: what scares me is that there's actually lots of people like pupnik who rooted for bush, TWICE07:32
thefoolAll in all though, I do think he is one of the better choices, if not the best.07:32
thefoolshackan: since 2003 I have met about two dozen people that will actually admit to that.07:33
zerojaypupnik: Voting for yet another old white guy that's disconnected from the public and giving him money, just like every other time before *is* sitting back and taking it.07:33
pupnikshackan: I never supported Bush.  thanks07:33
GAN800shackan, are you saying that Paul is another Bush?07:33
shackanthefool: because the others are ashamed of their votes?07:34
GAN800zerojay, how is Paul disconnected from the public?07:34
pupnikhe's stuck in left vs right politics.  There is another dimension, freedom vs authoritarianism.07:34
thefoolshackan: note I said in before the election07:34
GAN800"old white guy" sound incredibly racist to me.07:34
zerojayGAN800: The same way every other guy in politics is.07:34
shackanGAN800: to me it's all the same, I really don't know (living on the old continent and all that)07:34
thefoolGAN800: oh get over it. It's descriptive07:34
GAN800zerojay, do you know anything about the guy?07:34
zerojayGAN800: No, it's not racist, but it's pretty much what you get in presidential races.07:34
GAN800zerojay, you seem to be suggesting that a minority is automatically a better presidential candidate. ;)07:35
shackanpupnik: no, I didn't say YOU supported bush, I'm saying there were lots of people enthusiastic about him just like YOU are about ron07:35
zerojayGAN800: It's nothing personal against Paul himself. It's the same for everyone in the race.07:35
thefoolare either of you registered republicans?07:35
pupnikok sorry shackan - no problems :)07:35
zerojayGAN800: I'm not saying that either.07:35
GAN800<-registered libertarian07:35
thefooland what is Ron Paul running as?07:36
* pupnik high fives GAN800 07:36
GAN800shackan, so you're saying Paul is another Bush07:36
shackanwhere did I ?07:36
pupniknah don't attack shackan07:36
zerojayWhat I am saying is that it doesn't make sense to vote in another rich old guy and expect him to fight for the middle and lower class, regardless of their platform or who they are.07:36
zerojayAnd that's never going to change.07:37
pupnik  <<< that is votes, shackman.  Votes for the primary.07:37
GAN800zerojay, Paul has a track record to back up his politics.07:37
zerojayGAN800: Heard it all before in each and every other previous election.07:37
GAN800He's been in Congress for a while, and consistently voted with his stated beliefs the whole time.07:37
zerojayThese people aren't there for us.07:38
thefoolzerojay: In all probability you are right, but he has a better chance of making a change than anyone else I see running07:38
zerojaythefool: That could be true.07:38
shackanI want to re read this log a couple of years into his mandate :D07:38
zerojayI have nothing against the man whatsoever, by the way. I'm a Canadian, so I really don't give a shit about who you have running the place so long as they don't decide to attack us.07:39
shackansame here07:39
shackan'cept I'm in europe07:39
zerojayFrom what I've seen, Paul seems more down to earth... but I don't think putting him in power is going to automatically change things for the better.07:40
thefoolzerojay: the US has a surprisingly remarkable ability to drag other countries into the wars we start07:40
thefoolwhat we really need is a Supreme Court with some balls07:41
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shackanbut canada doesn't have an army in any case :D07:41
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zerojaythefool: It's because the US was held in such high regard, so people were willing to join the fight if it bought them brownie points, but it looks like that regard has been lost quite a while ago, unfortunately.07:41
thefoolum yea they do07:41
GAN800We need a government that's set up and run as the constitution intended.07:41
pupnikthefool: and an understanding of the original intent of the constitution :)07:41
thefoolzerojay: yet isn't canada still in Iraq?07:42
pupnik"We have given you a republic... if you can keep it." - Benjamin Franklin07:42
zerojayshackan: We have an army.. and the last time the US tried to invade Canada, they got their asses kicked.07:42
zerojaythefool: Canada never went to Iraq.07:42
shackanzerojay: I know :)07:42
thefoolpupnik: "I can not overly stress the danger of the word 'party'" -Benjamin Franklin07:42
zerojaythefool: Canada was against the war in Iraq and never joined.07:42
thefoolhmm, my mistake good for you07:43
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thefoolI was pretty sure I read something on BBC about canadian troops07:43
zerojaythefool: Maybe Canadian peacekeepers.07:43
thefoolnot in Iraq07:43
zerojayCanada is in Afghanistan.07:43
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thefooltrying to rebuild it?07:44
zerojayPeacekeeping missions as far as I remember.07:44
zerojayWhatever that means.07:44
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thefoolUsually I admire peacekeeping missions. But it seems they backfire in the Middle-East as the Peacekeepers tend to do a lot of shooting07:45
zerojayWell, when  you ignore them telling you that they don't want you there, they tend to get upset. :)07:45
thefoolThats why peacekeepers are supposed to go into an area only at the behest of the goverments07:46
thefoolWhat is Ron Paul running as? A republican or a libertarian?07:48
penguinbaitits bizare eh??07:48
thefoolhe is a republican member of congress07:48
penguinbaitI watched the debates and wondered why ron paul was at the wrong one07:48
doc|homenot really, that's what a real conservative used to be07:48
doc|homewhat you see in the republican party now is mostly neoconservatives07:49
doc|homewhich is little different to democrats07:49
thefooland he is a strict isolationist07:49
doc|homeno he's not07:49
thefoolwhich is simply stupid07:49
doc|homehe's an non-interventionist07:49
thefoolSo called free trade deals and world governmental organizations like the International Criminal Court (ICC), NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and CAFTA are a threat to our independence as a nation. They transfer power from our government to unelected foreign elites.07:49
doc|homeyes, because being in Iraq was oh so smart07:49
doc|homeit's not at all isolating the US, nope, not in the slightest07:49
thefool This spawn of powerful special interests, would create a single nation out of Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, with a new unelected bureaucracy and money system. Forget about controlling immigration under this scheme.07:50
doc|homethefool: vincente fox has already said on tv that that was the plan07:50
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thefoolWe must withdraw from any organizations and trade deals that infringe upon the freedom and independence of the United States of America.07:50
doc|homeand that chavez put a spanner in the works for that07:50
doc|homeare you even reading what I'm saying? :)07:51
thefoolnow I am07:51
Vulc|Sleeps[00:50:44] <thefool> We must withdraw from any organizations and trade deals that infringe upon the freedom and independence of the United States of America. -- the United States of America infringes upon the freedom and independance of The United States of America.07:51
pupnikabsolutely, that's government managed trade, thefool - and in particular a danger of international agencies and bodies managing trade and usurping national law07:51
pupnikfree trade != managed trade07:51
shackanthefool: while you're at it, could you withdraw from the countries you've invaded too? thanks07:52
pupnikthat's the plan shackan !07:52
shackanpupnik: including all the nato military bases on foreign soil07:52
thefoolpupnik: no that is not goverment managed trade07:52
pupnikyep! :) Dr. Paul is the only candidate for you.07:52
doc|homethefool: of course these foreign armies aren't costing any money at all (a trillion a year) and aren't devaluing the dollar at all (17% this year)07:53
thefoolpupnik: goverment managed trade is what we have right now, where a congress intitutes legal monopolies07:53
doc|homethefool: which nafta cafta etc encourage07:53
pupnikright, that's bad too thefool07:53
thefoolpupnik: no really?07:53
zerojayI find it kind of funny how there's such an anti-immigration thing going on in the US.. as if 95% of the people there weren't immigrants themselves.07:53
Vulc|Sleepspupnik: Too bad Ronnie is insane...07:53
penguinbait7 years07:53
thefoolbut the WTO is a good thing07:53
shackanlike the monopoly on health care..07:53
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thefooland the ICC is a great thing. It needs more support not less07:54
doc|homeVulc|Bleh: it's sad when *he's* the insane one, when that's what the country has come to07:54
doc|homebecause giuliani is better, or hillary. ugh07:54
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Vulc|BlehHe'd be fine, if not for all the religeous stuff.07:54
thefooldoc|home: in case you didn't know I totally agree that we have no buisiness invading soviergn countries07:54
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Vulc|BlehALL of the candidates are idiots07:54
shackanoh, rudy's running as well?07:54
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doc|homeVulc|Bleh: erm, he's not that openly religious07:55
doc|homehe's personally religious, but that's about it07:55
pupnikAnd Romney, our Berlusconi :)07:55
Vulc|BlehDoc: Yeah, but some of his views represent the one syou would associate about that.  But not as many as, say, the other republicans07:55
shackanpupnik: oh wow, you have YOUR OWN berlusconi now?07:55
pupnikshackan: yeah Romney just bought clearchannel communications, with 1000 radio stations07:56
shackanpupnik: is he a mafioso as well?07:56
doc|homeVulc|Bleh: can ou rephrase that please?07:56
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doc|homeI'm not parsing it :/07:56
Vulc|BlehDoc: I'm too tired to think, I may be getting a few confused.07:56
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doc|homeVulc|Bleh: I think you might be thinking about huckabee, who *is* insane07:56
thefoolI am pretty sure there are commandments against lying and murdering...I don't really associate religion with republicans07:56
Vulc|BlehNo, ronnie is, too, just less-so than the other GOP candidates.07:56
doc|homehe is very openly religious07:56
Vulc|Blehinsane, that is07:56
thefoolwhy is openly religious insane?07:57
Vulc|BlehI never said that was why he was insane.07:57
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doc|homeVulc|Bleh: find me another candidate who gets the economy and the foreign policy mess that the country is and then I'll believe you when you say that he's insane07:57
thefoolguess the timing threw me off07:57
Vulc|BlehDoc: He won't.07:57
doc|homethefool: I didn't say that07:57
doc|homeVulc|Bleh: he won't what?07:57
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Vulc|BlehFix everything he claims he will.07:58
Vulc|BlehEvery presidential candidate claims they will fix things.  Do they? Maybe two out of five on the list.07:58
doc|homeVulc|Bleh: check out his voting record, he will try his hardest, he'll have opposition in congress but he'll do his best within the system.07:58
thefoolVulc|Bleh: who fixed two out of five? I would love to shake his hand.07:58
Vulc|BlehFool: Don't know, though I'm pretty sure it was done.07:58
doc|homethefool: I think huckabee is insane because he takes the bible literally, not even the catholic church does that.07:59
thefoolVulc|Bleh: If a canidate actually fixes one thing in their four years I would be content07:59
Vulc|BlehDoc: I know he is _trying_ to fix things, but I don't think it will happen when he becomes pres.07:59
thefooldoc|home: as in the earth is only a few thousand years old?07:59
Vulc|Blehbut that goes for every one of them07:59
Vulc|BlehYou fools! The earth is only HUNDREDS of years old.07:59
doc|homethefool: I don't know to be honest, I avoid reading the bible.07:59
doc|homeVulc|Bleh: right, but I'd trust him to actually try his hardest, while I wouldn't even trust the rest to do that much08:00
Vulc|BlehEh.  There are a few dems that might.  I can't vote this election, so we'll see how it happens.  But personally? I'd rather none of them ruled our country for four years.08:01
pupnik"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman." -Thomas Paine08:01
shackanit's a dirty job, someone has to do it08:01
doc|homeVulc|Bleh: none of the dems will, besides, the race is Clinton VS Obama, they won't do anything intelligent. She wants to make it so everyone has equally shit healthcare, and he thinks bombing pakistan isn't an entirely stupid idea.08:01
thefoolAs far as Dems go this year we only have a choice between Hillary and Obama, and both would continue to destroy this country08:02
Vulc|BlehHillary, from what I remember, is against net neutrality, which is bad08:02
doc|homethefool: do some in-depth research into Paul's ideas and you'll see they're actually cool08:02
shackandoc|home: what's wrong with free health care? it works in canada08:02
doc|homeshackan: I live in Canada, it doesn't08:02
Vulc|BlehDoc: I have, and, again, hes probably one of the lesser evils08:02
thefoolI agree with everything except his views on the ICC and WTO08:03
Vulc|Blehbut none of them are good.08:03
thefoolI think the ICC is the best thing since sliced bread08:03
Vulc|Blehwe need the _old_ republicans back08:03
* shackan notes to self: don't take advice from movies08:03
doc|homethefool: will the ICC do anything about the mess that Bush has made?08:03
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thefoolI am trying to get an internship in prague...08:03
shackandoc|home: so, how it doesn't?08:03
thefoolThey would if they had enough support08:03
thefooldoc|home: but the ICC is not about dealing with whole nations08:03
doc|homeshackan: people here are constantly complaining about it.08:03
doc|homethefool: Bush is one person08:04
thefooldoc|home: they want to have Bush arrested08:04
pupnik"We have a president who claims the ability to kidnap anyone on earth and torture them.  This is dictatorial power that exceeds that of any ruler in the history of the world."08:04
doc|homethefool: right, but?08:04
shackandoc|home: they'd rather pay for everything out of their pocket?08:04
thefooldoc|home: well so far only Switzerland has agreed to hand him over to the ICC08:04
doc|homethefool: the ICC is useful when the people they don't like does something bad. When they people they do like does something bad nothing will happen.08:04
shackandoc|home: if you want to, there's always private clinics, at least we have them here08:04
* Vulc|Bleh kidnaps pupnik08:05
doc|homeshackan: not legal here08:05
shackandoc|home: hahaha, really?08:05
shackanbut that's... COMMUNISM!08:05
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thefoola single payer system makes a crap load of sense08:05
doc|homethefool: single payer system?08:06
shackanvery interesting08:06
thefoolCanada's is not perfect but...08:06
thefoolBasically the goverment is your insurance  company and they don't make a profit08:06
thefoolIts what Canada has08:06
doc|homethefool: so if I can actually afford to pay the best doctors for treatment but my local doctor sucks, I should be forced to go to my local doctor?08:06
thefoolheck no08:06
thefoolIf you feel like going elsewhere do it, but it wont necessarily be covered08:07
thefooljust like with insurrance08:07
doc|homethefool: except governments suck at lots of things. They don't generally even work towards the best deals. I worked for a company doing contracting to the government, the government paid more than most other clients.08:07
thefoolAnd a decent system should not care if the doctor is local08:07
doc|homethefool: except that's not legal, you can't go elsewhere08:07
shackandoc|home: that's nonsense08:07
thefooldoc|home: of course you can08:08
doc|home"Canada is the only industrialized country that has banned private medical insurance for services covered by the public health plan."08:08
shackanthat's INSURANCE08:08
shackanif you pay out of your pocket it's another business08:08
zerojaydoc|home: None of the stuff you said is a problem here.08:08
doc|homezerojay: I've heard of water drips costing $1508:09
shackanI guess doctors can exercise privately in canda, I hope so08:09
zerojayYou aren't forced to go to any doctor.. you choose.08:09
doc|homewater drips aren't the real term, I forget the name they were given08:09
celestehi lived in France for a while.  Can we copy their system?  It was great08:09
thefooldoc|home: The goverment will waste tons of money, they will be horridly inefficent. But in the end it will still be more cost effective then paying an insurance company because of the insurance company's huge profit margins08:09
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doc|homezerojay: you aren't forced to go to a specific doctor08:09
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zerojaydoc|home: Hell no. You just go to whatever doctor you want and give them your medicare card.08:10
shackanso what's the problem?08:10
pupnikI haven't felt this excited since christmas when I was 4 years old.08:10
zerojayIt is right. That's what we've always done. Never had to think about what doctors to go to, what was or wasn't covered, none of that crap.08:11
thefoolThis is a great polotics channel...08:11
zerojayThat's why it was shocking to me how crazy the US system is.08:11
Vulc|BlehYeah, its what happens when canola gets pushed back, thefool.08:11
thefoolzerojay: lets put it this way, my family's health insurance (HMO) is more than our mortgage08:11
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thefoolthats just insane08:12
pupnik12 MILLION! Woohooooooo! :)08:12
doc|homezerojay: so how do they apportion doctors? I mean, if everyone wants one doctor who's an expert, what happens?08:12
zerojaythefool: Not a surprise. I lived in the US for five years. I know how it is.08:12
doc|homepupnik: no one here knows what you're talking about :)08:12
pupniki'm used to that08:12
thefooldoc|home: yea we do...because he does not shut up about it lol08:12
thefoolRon Paul is raking in money08:12
zerojaydoc|home: The doctor will take everyone that he can. The others can wait or go elsewhere.08:13
celestehhe wants to withdraw from the UN?08:13
celestehthis guy is a loon08:13
thefoolmy sentiments exactly08:13
doc|homezerojay: no political interference at all? i.e. his bosses telling him who he must see?08:13
shackanthefool: ... and pupnik is happy for that, does that make any sense?08:13
zerojaydoc|home: No. Why would there be?08:13
celestehoh, and he's against women being able to control their own bodies08:13
celestehhow exciting08:14
zerojaydoc|home: And who is a doctor's boss anyways? That makes zero sense.08:14
thefoolcelesteh: oh don't start on that one08:14
doc|homecelesteh: no, he's not, he's against the federal government having a say one way or the other.08:14
celestehright, cuz "states rights" doesn't mean 90% of women get no say in such things08:14
doc|homecelesteh: some states want it, some don't. You can figure that out within your own state, but why should you be forced to not have abortion if enough people in iowa say you shouldn't08:15
celestehwhy should the bill of rights get to trump "states rights" in telling disempowered people what thyey can and can't do08:15
thefoolwhy should I be forced to not murder my son because enough people in florida think its wrong?08:16
celestehwhat about the women in iowa?  no rights for them08:16
doc|homewhat do the bill of rights say about abortion?08:16
zerojayMy body's nobody's body but mine. You have your body so let me have mine.08:16
thefoolabsolutely nothing!08:16
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doc|homecelesteh: again, that's up to them to fight. he can only work at what the federal government regulates.08:16
thefoolgreat have your body, but that body inside's not your body it's the body of a parasite called your child. Leave that one alone08:17
celestehlike Jim Crow was up to them?  States rights has a long history of screwing people08:17
doc|homezerojay: that's the libertarian way of thinking, but he can only do what the president is allowed to do.08:17
pupnikit's all defined by when you consider the unborn child to gain the rights of an individual.  This is an issue where there is no clear cut answer, and no mandate in the constitution for the federal govt to rule on.08:17
penguinbaitwow its getting pretty wild in here08:17
zerojaydoc|home: Huh? What? I think I missed something there.08:17
celestehindividuals do not have the right to comandeer the internal organs of other individuals08:17
doc|home<zerojay> My body's nobody's body but mine. You have your body so let me have mine. <- That is a libertarian belief08:18
celestehyou cannot be forced to give your liver to somebody who needs it08:18
zerojaydoc|home: It's a song taught to kids to teach them that other people shouldn't be touching them in naughty areas.08:18
doc|homezerojay: but at the same time, he's not supposed to regulate within states, only at the federal level08:18
thefoolwhere is that one coming from?08:18
doc|homezerojay: heh, I hadn't heard that one08:18
celestehbut somehow a fetus has the right to exist within a PERSON WHO DOES NOT WISH IT TO BE THERE08:19
celestehcapslock sorry08:19
penguinbaitthat person made a choice08:19
doc|homecelesteh: that's another reason why abortion is such a contentious issue, and not something you can really make a law for that you can make people happy about. States rights means it can be regulated at the state level so each state can decide for itself.08:20
celestehslut shaming08:20
thefoolcelesteh: because some think that a fetus is a person08:20
doc|homepenguinbait: what if the condom broke?08:20
penguinbaitI am pro-choice but against abortion08:20
pupnikAltitude: $413,800, Current velocity: $357,000/hr08:20
celesteh"End birthright citizenship."08:20
celestehoh man, this guy is a xenophobic loon08:20
thefooldoc|home: who cares, if she does not want it adoptions is better than death08:20
penguinbaitdoc its still your choice, risks and all08:20
celestehlet's ammend the consitutions to take away rights08:21
doc|homecelesteh: not at all, he just knows that people are coming to the US, having a baby soon after, then using that to stay. We see the same thing in Ireland.08:21
zerojayHey, how about that Maemo Mapper, huh?08:21
thefoolI think I am mozing to New Zealand08:21
celestehyes, women 9 months pregnant, swimming across the rio grande.  that's totally plausible08:21
doc|homecelesteh: he's all for immigration, just legal and when the economy can support it.08:21
penguinbaitwhere are you now08:22
doc|homecelesteh: do some more research into his explanations for these opinions08:22
thefoolsouth florida08:22
doc|homethey're all on youtube.08:22
penguinbaitwhy NZ08:22
celestehi've been in immigrant.  anybody who wants to make immigrant lives harder sucks08:22
thefoolhave you heard about all their political issues?08:22
zerojayI think this is the first time in my memory that we've had a woman actively participating in #maemo. Cool. :)08:22
penguinbaitnot quite as was as Florida,but its real nice08:22
pupnik  Tea Party 07 vs ThisNovember5th08:23
doc|homecelesteh: a legal one or illegal?08:23
celestehoh, and he's against the international criminal court08:23
celestehi've been both08:23
thefoolneither have I, and thats why I want to move there.08:23
doc|homecelesteh: as I've said, because it sucks. Will anything ever happen to Bush with the ICC?08:23
shackanthefool: where?08:23
thefoolshackan: NZ08:23
doc|homecelesteh: right, so if you can do it through the legal methods, why can't everyone? He wants to reform those too.08:24
celestehthe icc is established by treaty.  the us is specifically exempted from it08:24
shackanthefool: oh, and I wanted to move to australia myself :)08:24
doc|homecelesteh: convenient that08:24
celestehi've been both legal and illegal.  the paperwork is confusing and complicated in some countries08:24
doc|homecelesteh: I'm Irish and in Canada, I'm well aware of that :)08:24
thefoolcelesteh: in the US the paperwork is just plain insane08:24
doc|homeso many forms :(08:24
zerojaydoc|home: The US immigration department basically stole $10000 from my wife and I.08:24
celestehthe only reason to pull the us out of the icc, which this dude wants, is to undermine international law in general08:25
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celestehmilosovich should not be prosecuted according to ron paul08:25
doc|homezerojay: yeah, and coming to Canada's not much cheaper.08:25
thefoolI had a friend born on a french island to two Americans. Took him till after his 19th birthday to get his citizenship straightened out08:25
zerojayWe had to file and refile and refile because "the paperwork's been lost".. and even though they had a record of us paying all the fees, they made us repay over and over again.08:25
zerojaydoc|home: Wrong. *MUCH CHEAPER*.08:25
doc|homezerojay: do you think that makes a case for entering the country illegally?08:26
thefoolcelesteh: I agree, the US needs to submit itself fully to the ICC08:26
doc|homezerojay: er, no, immigration lawyer want 8.5k off me. 1100 or so just in application fees to the government,08:26
zerojayMy wife's just finishing her immigration to Canada. I think the final cost of everything is about $1000.08:26
thefoolcelesteh: people like Bush should be tried alongside people like Milosovich08:26
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doc|homezerojay: you're doing it yourself, right?08:26
zerojaydoc|home: I'm talking just application fees.08:26
zerojaydoc|home: Yep.08:26
penguinbaiti agree08:26
doc|homezerojay: you have to admit though that your case in the US should be outside the norm.08:27
timelessanyone here know mplawner?08:27
zerojayUS basically made us pay four times more than we should have had to pay.08:27
celesteh"It is the federal government that most divides us by race, class, religion, and gender. Through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, government plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails."08:27
doc|homecelesteh: look into his explanations of that08:27
celestehyes.  white men in the US are doing SO BADLY because the feds dscriminate against them constantly08:27
zerojaydoc|home: Doesn't matter, because to me, it is the norm... so after all that, we said fuck it, lets go to Canada instead.08:27
thefoolthat was hogwash, his real view isn't quite as bad08:27
doc|homecelesteh: you know hedge funds make about 2200 times what most people make, yet they, by their own admission, pay less taxes than a cleaner.08:27
doc|homezerojay: what happens to you does not make that the norm :)08:28
doc|homezerojay: a sample of one is not a good sampling rate :)08:28
pupnikOf course the govt does promote collectivism, and through tax-and-spend it promotes certain groups over others.  This is not one of the enumerated powers of the constitution08:28
celesteh"racial set-asides" -> white guys are being discriminated against.  boo-hoo08:28
zerojayWhen legal immigration is next to impossible for a separated family to get, there's something wrong.08:28
penguinbaitMONKEY!!, HERE MONKEY MONKEY, Where the hell did that monkey go?08:28
zerojaydoc|home: No, but it makes it the norm to *me*.08:28
zerojaydoc|home: Because I was always treated the same way.08:28
doc|homezerojay: yes, but that makes no _legal_ justification for doing it outside the system.08:28
doc|homezerojay: again, a sample of one is not right08:29
zerojaydoc|home: I'm not saying a sample of one means it's the norm for the US.08:29
celestehimmigration to the UK is f-ing impossible.08:29
doc|homethose same people are the people you think should look after health care?08:29
celestehthe US is so much worse08:29
thefooldoc|home: it might not be legally justified, but one is often left with no vialbe alternative08:29
doc|homethefool: so you think anyone who wants to enter the country should be allowed?08:29
zerojaydoc|home: What I am saying is that I don't know or care about every other case. I only care about my own.,.. and in my case, I was always given the runaround and forced to pay more, so for me, them trying to fuck us over IS the norm.08:29
celestehdoc|home: why the heck not?08:30
pupnikYou can't advocate unconstitutional laws based on exceptionalism without ratcheting up the leviathan state.08:30
penguinbaitzj, has marijuana been decriminalized everywhere in Canada or only certain places?08:30
doc|homecelesteh: no security checks?08:30
timelesspenguinbait: monkey was killed by popular request08:30
zerojaypenguinbait: No idea.08:30
penguinbaitI tried to bring him back08:30
pupnikthe popular request was for monkey to be changed to reply only when spoken to, timeless08:30
zerojaydoc|home: Why not. Everyone that got to the US before didn't have to submit to that.08:30
celestehthe way the Dutch do immigration is that people from certain countries just arrive and then apply for paperowrk08:30
thefooldoc|home: I think that I have not met an imigrant that was not a boon to the US08:30
doc|homezerojay: then you seem to have pretty narrow vision on these things :(08:30
doc|homezerojay: ok then, I think there should be security checks. Even the Canadian government agrees.08:31
celestehwhy can't we have the Dutch system?  Just show up and if you can stay and participate, that's great08:31
zerojaydoc|home: Well, I can only speak from experience. If my experience was completely shitty... well, I'm sorry, but that's the way I was treated.08:31
timelesspenguinbait: *shrug* i'm pretty sure _monkey got killed while i was on a vacation08:31
thefooldoc|home: yet I have met a lot of lazy bums whos parents or great great grandparents were imigrants and are legal citizens who just collect welfare08:31
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doc|homezerojay: celesteh do you think taxes should go to social welfare for immigrants?08:31
doc|homeif they can't get jobs08:32
celestehimmigrants pay more in taxes than they user services, so yes08:32
zerojaydoc|home: I live in a place where we take care of the needy and the sick.. so yes.08:32
doc|homecelesteh: illegal ones don't08:32
celestehyes they do.  they pay sales taxes and often payroll witholdings08:32
celestehalso, california agriculture would not exist without undocumented workers08:32
doc|homezerojay: it's not about sick and needy, it's about people who don't/can't/won't work08:33
celestehthey do pay taxes and they make farming here possible08:33
thefoolI don't think taxes should go to social welfare for people that can get jobs and don't only those that "can't" and those that pay taxes should reap the benefit of taxes. Instead of trying to get rid of our imigrants we should tax the "illegal" ones like everyone else08:33
celestehwhy shouldn't they get to go to a doctor when they're sick and send their kids to school just because their paperwork isn't in order?08:33
zerojaydoc|home: Doesn't matter. People are people, regardless of artificial lines we've drawn around the planet.08:33
penguinbaitI was just poking around #politics and its pretty quiet??08:33
* timeless chuckles08:34
thefoolpenguinbait: have a maemo related topic you want to shift things to?08:34
timelesspenguinbait: afaict infobot is in requiremode08:34
thefoolI blame this whole debate on canola...and pupnik08:34
celestehmaemo political mapper helps you navigate through the primary candidates08:34
timelessinfobot i am timeless08:34
infobotit is my pleasure to meet you, timeless08:34
timelessinfobot who am i?08:34
infobottimeless shut up, you are a nobody08:34
timelessok, how rude08:34
thefoolinfobot I am TheFool08:35
infobotit is my pleasure to meet you, TheFool08:35
thefoolinfobot who am I?08:35
doc|homezerojay: I think those lines are important, otherwise you're also in with those people who invaded Iraq :/ (new lines will be drawn, people are always grouped, you'd be a "north american")08:35
infobotthefool shut up, you are a nobody08:35
thefoolwas wondering if it was random or constant08:35
timelessthanks :)08:36
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celestehwhen is OS2008 supposed to be out?08:36
thefool2xth I think08:36
timelesswhen it's ready?08:36
zerojaydoc|home: When it comes to dealing with people on a daily basis, I don't think anyone's going to confuse me with a guy armed with an AK47 and taking over other countries, but thanks for playing. :)08:36
celestehmy n800 won't sign on to my airport network correctly.  it only gets a link local IP.  I'm hoping it's fixed in 200808:36
pupnikOS2008 will be a pile of tissue one second, then a full fledged OS when it is released.  It's magic!08:37
timelesscelesteh: did you file a bug?08:37
Vulc|Blehyou could try installing 08 now...08:37
Vulc|Blehpup: Do we have a release date yet?08:37
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celestehno, i didn't file a bug.  i'm wondering if it's because i bought the tablet in the Netherlands and it's something funny about american vs EU radio?08:37
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zerojaycelesteh: I've been told that a lot of Apple's products don't do proper DHCP so...08:37
doc|homezerojay: right, just like those not armed with ak47s don't get called "sand monkeys". That never happens. People never just group a large number of people and tar them all with the one brush.08:37
thefoolso just use a normal router...the airport is overpriced hogwash anyway08:38
zerojaydoc|home: Hard to paint me with the same brush when I'm not over there doing it.08:38
Vulc|Bleh[01:37:43] <celesteh> no, i didn't file a bug.  i'm wondering if it's because i bought the tablet in the Netherlands and it's something funny about american vs EU radio? -- it may be that08:39
zerojayAnd if helping people around me means that I would be painted with that same brush, then I'd happy welcome it.08:39
celestehit's even more overpriced if i have to replace it with a new one when the rest of the network is doing fine08:39
zerojaycelesteh: EU goes from 1-13.. US goes from 1-11.08:39
doc|homezerojay: sure, and it's hard to paint the "brown people" with being "islamofascists" yet that's what's happening. People don't care about the middle east because they're all getting grouped in as one when that's not even close to the case no more than all americans voted for Bush.08:39
thefooldoc|home: i believe "towel-heads" is the PC term in the US08:39
thefoolcelesteh: good point...08:39
zerojaydoc|home: That's what's happening in the US. :)08:39
doc|homethefool: same thing :)08:39
doc|homezerojay: exactly08:39
zerojaydoc|home: Not happening here.08:39
doc|homezerojay: because there are those lines08:40
doc|homereally? what denotes one country if not those lines?08:40
thefoolI totally decked a guy about a month ago for talking about how he thinks we should "nuke all those towel-heads"08:40
doc|homethefool: good move :)08:40
celestehwow.  if anybody deserved a decking08:40
doc|homealthough I'd have probably not done quite that :)08:41
thefoolhave you looked at the EU thats a lot of countries that have largely forogtten about those lines08:41
shacka1It's diaper-heads08:41
doc|homethefool: exactly, and the same is going to happen to the US08:41
doc|homeand canada and mexico08:41
thefooland I don't see that as a problem08:41
zerojaydoc|home: You're going really way off on a tangent here to try to get away from my point that the people up here care for one and all and if it means higher taxes and other problems, so be it.08:41
thefoolI see that as a good thing08:41
doc|homeit's terrible even economically because different regions have different economic set ups08:41
celestehi'd rather pay higher taxes and know that i wasn't going to be totally screwed if i got cancer08:42
doc|homee.g. Ireland is going to suffer because interest rates in the EU are set to what suits germany and france08:42
thefooland yet they are all doing fine08:42
doc|homespain will suffer too08:42
thefooljust like Canada is08:42
doc|homethefool: give it time, the EU has increased the number of euro in circulation by 12.3% in the last year08:42
zerojayYep. We have a government surplus... not a huge backbreaking debt.08:42
shacka1Italy is not :(08:42
thefoolthey have a pretty open immigration policy, they take care of their immigrants, they provide universal healthcare...and yet they are doing fine08:43
doc|homethefool: canada will do better because it has resources, but the US hurting will hurt canada too as exports drop08:43
celestehOne more quote from the ron Paul website: "Today, the Social Security system is broke and broken."  bzzzt.  thanks for playing.  better luck next time08:43
zerojaydoc|home: In the short term, yes.08:43
celestehif by "broke" you mean funded for the next 30 years AT LEAST08:43
doc|homeunless you have the NAU which will mean Canada will will have no control over its resources and will also get the US's debt08:43
thefoolcelesteh: wait, are you seriously suggesting that it is not broken?08:43
celestehi'm suggesting that it's not broke08:43
doc|homecelesteh: funded, but the money has been spent already08:43
thefoolcelesteh: really? where is that money?08:44
zerojaydoc|home: I don't see that ever happening because everyone up here would make sure it wouldn't.08:44
doc|homecelesteh: he wants people to be able to opt out of that, and go private if they want08:44
thefoolcelesteh: then with all due respect, you my friend are an idiot08:44
celestehdid i miss the headline where retirees didn't get their checks?08:44
doc|homezerojay: I hope so, but if harper gets a majority he may not listen08:44
celestehit's a bunch of treasury bonds08:45
celestehthat's in the fund08:45
doc|homecelesteh: they're getting them now, but will they in the future08:45
zerojaydoc|home: He'd have to. There would be too much of a public outcry. We don't want to lose what's great about our country because the US screwed up theirs.08:45
thefoolno but you missed the 100 of them about my kids generation not getting their checks when they retire...and about the whole america is in the most dept it has ever been in thing...08:45
doc|homezerojay: exactly, that's why lines are important08:45
celestehthe projections where the system goes "broke" all place it at 30 years in the future or sometimes 50 and assume that there will be zero economic growth08:46
doc|homethe US debt is now at 9 trillion, that'll have to be paid08:46
doc|homecelesteh: I think it has started already08:46
doc|homecelesteh: you have a recession (negative growth) and a quickly declining dollar08:46
celestehyes, debt is out of control, but seriously, if the us starts defaulting on treasury bonds, a private system won't save you08:47
thefoolSTARTED? when someone is in dept they are not starting to be "broke" they are past that point08:47
thefoolit is not so different with countries08:47
doc|homecelesteh: not now they won't08:47
celestehreally?  so if somebody is paying off a morgage, they're broke?08:47
doc|homecelesteh: if you have -300,000 are you not broke?08:48
celestehwell, when i first purchased a home, i had -300 000, but would not have described myself as broke, since i was paying all my bills on time08:48
thefoolthat analogy is flawed as the US has made no investment, they are just spending the money08:48
zerojayAnd spending the money and spending the money.08:49
celestehif the problem is that we're spenind too much money and this is going to hurt retirees, maybe we could do something like, i dunno, stop invading other countries?08:49
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thefoolI would not call buying a house in dept as you now have something of worth. The US is simply buying a bunch of beer kegs...08:49
celestehquit building insanely expensive weapons for the cold war?08:49
doc|homecelesteh: sure, find another politician who'll do that?08:49
thefooland sloppily pouring them on the ground08:50
celestehdennis kucinich08:50
zerojay <-- Kinda says it all.08:50
doc|homecelesteh: he has zero chance against obama and hillary. Ron Paul has a lot of support, even if polls don't show it. Look at how much money he's pulling in. He's going to really surprise people in the primaries.08:50
celestehactually, he said he wanted ron paul for a running mate.  which is rather unfortunate08:50
Fang64wow you guys pick topics that start arguments often?08:51
doc|homecelesteh: I've heard he'd also be Ron Paul's running mate08:51
doc|homeFang64: debate != argument :)08:51
celestehalas, why does everybody cool turn into ralph nader08:51
Fang64ah I stepped in the wrong time08:51
doc|homecelesteh: hmmm?08:51
celestehthese guys all seem to actually have good ideas and then they go shred their credibility08:52
shacka1Fang64: and it's more interesting than canola08:52
celestehkucinich says he wants to promite peace internationally, but he wants to run with the guy who wants to kill all international institutions?08:52
Fang64lol agreed08:52
doc|homecelesteh: check his credibility, you may not always agree with everything he says but he's very consistent, and he gets that the economy is fucked without change (which will hurt but a lot less than without change) and that the foreign policy is utterly stupid.08:52
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shacka1celesteh: it's callaed, 'politics', or 'fool the electors'08:53
doc|homecelesteh: why should the US get to tell another country how it should act?08:53
thefoolgoodnight all08:53
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doc|homewhat did the UN do to stop the US invading Iraq? nothing, What would it do to stop the US invading Iran? Nothing, or any other country for that matter.08:54
celestehi like international greements.  specifically, i like ones designed to promote peace.  like the anti-nucleart proliferation treaties.  i just have a sneaking suspision that nuclear war would suck.  probably delay some maemo releases and whatnot08:54
doc|homecelesteh: he's not against any agreements, he's against these agreements.08:54
celestehthe UN has done quite a bit to promote peace and prevent another world war.  that the us chooses to run roughshod over it only shows the US to be a law-breaking state, not anyhting intrinsically wrong with the organization08:55
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doc|homecelesteh: check out his videos and you'll see he promotes discussion and trade and is opposed "entangling alliances" which is what those agreements are08:56
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celestehWhat do I, as an American citizen, get from having extra soverignty?08:57
doc|homeI thought he was a bit off the wall too, specifically some of the stuff he wanted to dismantle, but they make a lot of sense when you see the justification08:57
celestehI get the ICC falling apart.  That doesn't help me08:57
celestehI get the UN falling apart.  That doesn't help me.08:57
doc|homecelesteh: the US makes up a large part of the UN forces, that costs the US money, paid for in taxes and national debt (which leads to inflation) both of which affect you.08:57
celestehThe more the US turns into an outlaw state, the lower the dollar falls and the harder it is for me to move abroad.  This hurts me as a citizen08:58
pupnikWow, celesteh is technically american08:58
doc|homecelesteh: thanks to the government which he wants to help remove the power from.08:58
doc|homecelesteh: that's also thanks to the federal reserve, which he wants to dismantle.08:58
celestehWithdrawing from international organizations does not help the US's status/perception as an outlaw state.08:59
doc|homethey've only been there since 1913 and the dollar has inflated at an unprecedent rate since then08:59
doc|homecelesteh: he'll pull out of every country US forces are in. That would mean a hell of a lot more.08:59
celestehpupnik: wow, what.  I'm in Berkeley08:59
celestehblame william jennings bryant and his cross if gold09:00
doc|homecelesteh: international organisations mean nothing. You can still talk to people.09:00
celestehs /if/of/09:00
celestehindeed, nothing prevents you from talking to people, but withdrawing from the forum in which suchs discussions take place does send a signal about isolationism.  not the good kind of stop-meddling isolationism, but the we-don't care-what-you-think kind09:01
doc|homecelesteh: it also says you're not happy with how the organisation has progressed. It's a lot different to how it was when it was formed.09:01
doc|homechina and russia can veto anything09:02
celestehso can we09:02
doc|homeas can france and britain09:02
celestehon the security counsil, not in the general assembly09:02
doc|homeso you may want to do something which is completely justified and right, but they can veto it09:02
celestehand losing the vetos would be a good thing09:02
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doc|homeexactly, but then it's a completely different organisation09:02
celestehbut ditching vetos and ditching the whole org are different things09:02
celestehthe security counsil would, indeed, change.09:03
doc|homecelesteh: yeah, but can you see anyone ditching their veto?09:03
celestehi'm reminded of a proverb about babies and bathwater09:03
doc|homemeh, sometimes babies suck09:03
celestehthey only get rights until they're born.09:04
celestehthen they're not so innocent anymore09:04
doc|homeyou gave those quotes so I'm going to give you another one of his quotes: "The purpose of government is to protect the secrecy and privacy of all individuals, not the secrecy of the government". Does that sound like any other politician to you? And he's a ten term congressman who has voted against even congressional pay raises.09:05
syntuxis there any way to connect N800 to Garmin device ?09:05
doc|homeyou're looking at the negatives, look at the positives too09:06
celestehthose quotes, btw, were from his campaign website09:06
celestehon the part where he explains his positions09:06
doc|homecelesteh: right, but as with any politician you have to look deeper to find out anything09:06
celestehthey're the little blurbs you see before you click for more.  they were not unfair in any way09:06
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doc|homeanything that you see as a negative generally has a reasonable explanation once you find it. I'm not so bothered about immigration, but it supposedly is a big problem in some states. The up sides far outweigh the downsides with him. More than any othe politician.09:07
pupnikSomeone has to pull the brakes on the train heading off the cliff.09:08
celestehthere is not a good justification for ending brithright citizenship.09:08
celestehthe states that are all up in arms about immigrants are the states with the fewest09:09
doc|homecelesteh: in Ireland we have people from countries outside the EU who come over weeks before they're due to give birth. Then demand citizenship.09:09
doc|homethe same supposedly is happening in the US09:09
celestehcalifornia is a border state and it's not going crazy09:09
doc|homebut hey, that's just one issue09:09
celestehanything that ammends the consitution to remove rights from particular individuals because of their parents legal status is not just one issues.  it is a huge issue09:10
doc|homeis it really a killer issue? I mean, look at the rest of them, can you tell me that that's the problem in the world :/09:10
celestehfine, underminding the ICC would also be enough for me to dismiss him outright09:10
doc|homecelesteh: hah, because they're important?09:11
celestehthe US should increase it's participation in peace-promiting international orgs, not reduce09:11
doc|homereally, if Bush can get away with what he's done and the ICC has done nothing of any great use, how can they be a key issue for you?09:11
celestehif the most armed country in the world suddenly up and quits the UN, don't you think that would have implications?09:11
doc|homecelesteh: again, the US should not be intervening at all. That's what it should do. Where does it get to say what another country should do?09:11
celestehthe ICC's charter is such that it will not prosecute americans09:11
syntuxwhoo haa, politics at #Maemo :-)09:11
syntuxthat's wonderful09:12
doc|homecelesteh: and you think that's ok?09:12
celestehyou can't criticize it for not violating it's charter09:12
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syntuxdo you think #Politics folks would be talking about Maemo ? maybe discussing OS2008?09:12
celestehif you want the ICC to start prosecuting americans, you can amend the charter09:12
celestehwithdrawing from it will just cause it to collapse09:12
celestehno more world court.  that promotes peace how?09:13
doc|homehow is it doing it now?09:13
celestehcharles taylor is being held in the hague09:13
celesteh(couldn't have ahppened to a nicer guy)09:13
doc|homeand you think that has stopped anyone else from committing atrocities?09:14
doc|homeor will in the future?09:14
doc|homedo you think these people really consider the ICC when they carry out their actions?09:14
doc|home"Oh well, I was going to kill thousands of people but the ICC, they'll dislike that"09:14
celestehwhat kind of nihilism causes people to give up on the rule of law because it's not perfect?09:14
celestehshoudl we get rid of laws against murder because serial killers do it anyway?09:15
doc|homecelesteh: has the ICC stopped the murder of close to a million people in Iraq09:15
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doc|homeis it not for the people of Liberia to try Charles taylor?09:15
celestehno, the ICC has not violated the treaties that established it09:16
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pupnikNP: The The - I've been waiting for this moment, all of my life.09:16
celestehsometimes, it can be very difficult for people who have just gotten out from under a dictator to do a trial themselves due to lingering fear and corruption09:16
doc|homecelesteh: again, who gets prosecuted by the ICC, the people who should be or the people who the supporters of the ICC dislike?09:16
pupnikICC has been partisan in NATO wars, it's a joke for post-facto criminalization of the west's opponents.09:16
doc|homecelesteh: the Italians did it09:16
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doc|homemany do, history is full of examples of it09:17
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celestehmany don't.  Taylor was a US a puppet.  That makes it somehwat more complicated for them09:17
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doc|homesorry, they didn't try mussolini, he was dealt with otherwise09:17
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celestehno international org is perfect.  we can try to fix them.  we should try to fix them09:18
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celestehfixing them != breaking them09:19
doc|homesometimes they can't be fixed, the US would never agree to a change in the charter09:19
celestehfixing them != abadoning them09:19
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celestehwho is the US in this case?  The citizens?  The guy who is running for president who wants out because they voerpriviledge the country?09:19
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celestehs /voer/over/09:19
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doc|homecelesteh: I've to go now, go vote for whoever suits you. If the ICC is your key issue I'm a little worried, I have to say. Failing economy? Fine, Terrible Foreign policy? fine. But dismantle the ICC? NEVAR!09:20
celestehif we'd elect a guy who says, "wow, we shouldn't have this veto," wouldn't that indicate that we'd then have a government which would act to get rid of the veto?09:20
pupnikAltitude: $634,000  Velocity: $300,000/hr09:21
celestehScreing international orgs is worse foreign policy!  It doesn't fix anything!  It exacerabtes recent negative trends.  Not only do we invade people but we drop out of everything designed to stop such things!09:21
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doc|homecelesteh: his foreign policy is to NOT invade anywhere in the first place.09:22
doc|homeand to pull out of those places US forces are already09:23
pupnikcelesteh: they don't stop such things.09:23
pupnikcelesteh: only the american people can stop it - by voting for Ron Paul09:23
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thoughtfixOK kind sirs. Must get ready for $girl arrival.09:40
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corevette - amazing10:10
pupnikat 3:00 AM! (est)10:18
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L0cutusConsumes more energy an usb keyboard or a bluetooth?10:59
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pupnikwith rechargeable AAA akkus, my bluetooth keyboard lasts 3 days to 2 weeks11:00
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L0cutusi mean wich one drain the tablet more fast11:02
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L0cutussince the tablet can give max 200mA to an usb device11:02
pupnikgood question11:04
L0cutusin other words, consumes more power a bluetooth connection or an usb connection ?11:05
L0cutusi think a n usb connection drain more power...11:06
pupniki think so too - i think bluetooth is somewhere around 10mw11:06
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L0cutusand also has power saving11:06
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pupnikthere are three classes of bluetooth RF power levels, 1, 10 and 100mw sending power11:07
L0cutusis automatically selected ?11:08
L0cutusi have see that synergy is less usable with os200811:09
L0cutussince i don't know how to switch input type11:10
L0cutusthe old script are gone11:10
pupnikinput type for syn?11:12
pupniki can find it11:12
pupnikmaemo-gtk-im-switch xim11:13
L0cutuscan't find it anymore :-\11:14
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maddlermorning all...11:49
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sciboy - That would be neat to have.12:40
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sciboyPredictive text with only 6 buttons for the alphabet.12:44
pupnikL0cutus: i think the 4 AA 1.25 volt NiMH batteries would be preferable to that 9V going through the voltage convertor - at least easier to wire up without ordering parts.12:45
sciboyThe big different being the distance you hand has to travel, all the buttons you need directly border each other.12:52
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b0unc3good morning13:14
syntuxYes, good morning13:22
syntuxis there any way to connect N800 to Garmin device ?13:22
syntuxor is there any way to install Google Earth on N800 ?13:22
pupnikis there a collaborative text editor for maemo?13:22
pupniktesting gobby right now13:25
pupniktons of dependencies tho13:25
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pupnikanybody up for a quick gizmo test?13:52
gomiampupnik: what do you want to test?13:53
pupnikif it works - had problems with another person13:53
pupnikneed to see whose end the problem is on13:53
pupnikthe call would connect, but no sound13:53
gomiamgive me a couple of minutes and we can try it13:54
pupnikok ty13:54
pupnikmuch obliged :)13:54
gomiamok, starting Gizmo up...13:58
gomiamlogging in as magao304613:58
gomiamdownloading latest update...13:58
gomiamlaunching application manager...13:59
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pupniki'm on as pupnik14:00
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gomiamrelaunching gizmo...14:03
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gomiamadding pupnik...14:04
gomiamwaitiing for callback...14:05
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pupnikthanks - problem was on his end14:07
gomiamok, shutting down Gizmo14:08
pupniki do not have any special ports open for gizmo either14:09
pupnikit must be the other guy's firewall or something14:09
gomiamyup, must be that14:10
gomiamit might even be the Windows Firewall (going out on a limb here)14:11
gomiamif it decided the Gizmo application has no permissions to receive data and your pal didn't know how to change that, it might do that14:11
gomiamwell, now it's time to get back to trying to find the elusive "Windows patch" that allows Xen-izing Windows without paravirtualization :-)14:13
gopi_hmm. colloquy seems to be leaving this window blank for some reason.14:14
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gopiLet's see if this works now.14:15
gomiampupnik: it seems I cut the conversation short and Gizmo decided I needed to get a voicemail XD14:16
gomiam(from you, that is)14:17
pupnikyes i sent a mail before you got online with the client14:17
pupnikwell i placed a call, and gizmo seems to have a server-based answering machine14:17
gomiamwell, it got your message quite clearly14:18
gomiam(listening to the .WAV file right now)14:18
pupniki like the app.  just need to learn how to connect to other SIP clients, not just gizmo14:18
gomiamit would seem you can set what protocol a contact uses while adding it14:19
gomiam(at least I got a drop-down list that included SIP)14:20
pupnikok thx14:20
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t_s_ohmm, is it much point in getting a 770 fixed these days? or should i just grab a N800? still, its about 6 months since i got the 770, so...14:45
gopiI prefer the 770's physical design for handheld use.14:47
hugolpbah, get a N80014:51
hugolpOS2008 is great14:51
kulvethe double memory in n800 compared to 770 is quite useful..14:55
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gomiamand, since OS2008, you can use the N800 as a USB _host_14:58
gomiamwhich can be quite interesting14:58
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tontsawhat do you mean as host?14:59
t_s_oas in, plug in a usb device like say a memory stick?15:00
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gomiamtontsa: I mean you can connect USB drives, mice, and keyboards through the right cable15:00
gomiamand the N800 will even power them15:00
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tontsaoh ok15:00
t_s_ohmm, sounds like ill grab a N800 then if i can find the cash. and maybe get that 770 fixed later15:00
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gomiam(of course, you'd better have a powered USB hub so the N800 won't suffer giving out too much power)15:01
tontsai'm just happy using my n810 on the road without any plugs or wires coming out of it :)15:02
t_s_ohmm, can that carmonitor thingy use usb based devices to?15:02
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pupnikn800 can power a usb hard drive (notebook)?15:35
t_s_oprobably, if running 08. but i wonder how long the battery would last15:35
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astro76I was under the impression you need to inject power externally for anything with significant current draw15:49
astro76like this
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JaffaMorning, all16:21
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oil_quickie. how to determinate from which repository I can find wireless-tools ?16:58
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myk0ngst_element_factory_make segfaults when running in the Nokia N800, does anyone has a clue about it?17:08
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* sp3000 read that as gst_element_factory_make_segfaults at first glance17:29
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mgedminturns out you do need to reboot a n800 after calibrating the screen for the calibration to take effect18:00
mgedminat least now I know my n800 isn't broken18:01
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sp3000mgedmin: os?18:17
sp3000k, says fixed now18:17
mgedminI won't need to file a bug report then :-)18:18
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skiburok... Any word on official OS2008 bin file for N800?19:57
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kulveskibur: I think there isn't20:07
skiburo ok20:10
skiburwondering why bigomips = 160.68?20:11
kulveBogoMIPS        : 320.3720:12
kulveI think it depends on what you are doing..20:12
skiburare you using os2008 or os2007?20:13
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dick-richardsonwhere is the path specified?21:16
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dick-richardsonwhen I type into my vnc client in os2008, the letters are doubled on the vnc server...anyone come across this?21:23
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bz_glooks like OS2008 (used to) double keystrokes on xterm as well:
bz_gany news from maemo for the final release of OS2008 ?21:28
kulveno news on the final os2008 (at least I haven't seen any)21:29
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bz_gkulve: thanks.21:38
bz_gI've got my N800 yesterday, I plan to upgrade quite soon.21:39
bz_gBut one thing: will it be possible to upgrade from 0S2008 (beta) to 0S2008 (final) smoothly?21:39
bz_gOr will that require to flash again ?21:39
timelessbz_g: asking's pointless21:40
tontsadefinately a flash. there's no point for nokia to waste time QA:ing some smooth upgrade from beta21:40
timelesswhen there's news,it'll be on,, and the channel topic21:40
timelessnote: for a final, like os2008/n800, it'd obviously be at least a flash21:41
dick-richardsonI'd leave it 2007 until the final release21:41
timelessand most likely there will be flashed for a while21:41
infobottimeless meant: and most likely there will be flashes for a while21:41
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timelesswhether or note there are also updates available21:41
* timeless cries21:42
infobottimeless meant: whether or not there are also updates available21:42
* bz_g wonders if timeless is on #maemo via xchat/N8[01]021:44
bz_gdick-richardson: thanks, I think I'll do this.21:44
timelessbz_g: epic via screen/ssh/putty atm21:45
timelesswatching "The siege" on tv21:45
timelesssometimes i do use terminal's on my 770/n800/n810s21:45
timelessbut in this case, i'm mostly tired21:45
* timeless goes back to handing out thumbs down21:46
dick-richardsonI have some movies I've encoded xvid/mp3 (vbr) and I'm getting a media corrupted message on my n810...21:47
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timelessdick: internal card?21:49
dick-richardsonexternal...or samba21:49
timelessmedia corrupted is from a movie player about the movie21:49
timelessor from the device/platform about the file systems?21:49
dick-richardsonmovie player about the movie21:50
timelessdick: look into jaffa's media thingy21:50
dick-richardson"Unable to open. Media clip corrupted."21:50
timelessbtw, if you feel the English text sucks, please file a bug :)21:51
dick-richardsonwhere is it?21:51
timelessthe trick is remembering its name :)21:52
dick-richardsontablet-encode v2.15 - now with GUI21:52
timelessi really don't remember :)21:53
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dick-richardsonhere we go...we'll see how well it works :D21:59
konttorihas canola been published yet?22:01
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univacwho have n800 for sell? ;p22:21
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alteregounivac, Nokia22:24
univaci dont need brand new :)22:24
alteregoThis isn't a market place univac22:24
univacEh, maybe whos have for sell ..22:25
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tank-manunivac, how much would you pay for a used one?22:40
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zerojayI wouldn't go higher than $100 for a used N800 now.22:43
tank-mani wouldnt sell my used one for $10022:44
tank-manmy precious22:44
zerojayCan't be too precious if you'd sell it at all. :)22:45
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alteregoI'd sell my used one for $20022:46
alterego$100 is way too cheap ..22:46
zerojayThey sell brand new for $200.22:46
alteregoThey do?22:47
tank-manexactly :) hahaha22:47
univactrue :)22:47
zerojayN800s are about $200 new now.22:47
alteregoThat's pretty cheap.22:47
alteregoWell, I'm not selling mine any way :P22:47
alteregoI'm going to rip it apart instead.22:47
* |R hates scripting file names with spaces :|22:47 wouldnt ship to my country, blach22:48
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alteregoimmigrate ;)22:49
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|Rthey'll ship to canada though now, i'm happy :)22:49
univacalterego: pff, never ;d22:50
alteregoWell, obviously Nokia don't recognise your country. You must be in a crap place :P22:52
univacpoland ;p22:52
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alteregoMust be pretty lonely there now.22:53
edistarhas jack been ported to maemo?22:53
alteregoWhy would you want that on Maemo?22:55
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edistaralterego: I'd like to run idjc on maemo22:56
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alteregoDon't know what that is :)22:56
edistaralterego: a dj program22:57
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alteregoI seriously doubt that'd work well.22:57
alteregoBut you can try porting it yourself ..22:57
edistaralterego: me too, but I wanted to try :)22:57
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shackanwho is this Darius Jack guy and why does he always act like a dick?23:56

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