IRC log of #meego for Thursday, 2011-09-29

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gabrbedd	I've come to like RPM... but what do people know about http://www.emdebian.org/	00:19
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CosmoHill	gabrbedd: hehe	00:24
berndhs	I think there are a few good choices for upstream distros. The main issue is, where do you get devices that let you run it ?	00:26
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ali1234	berndhs: htc	00:28
berndhs	yes if you can guarantee them a half-way interesting number of sales	00:28
ali1234	berndhs: no you don't understand. you buy an android device and put whatever on it	00:29
ali1234	the same way we did with windows pcs for 20 years	00:29
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gabrbedd	berndhs: we're no longer talking about mass-market. We're talking about hobbyists playing with off-the-shelf devices.	00:29
berndhs	yes i understand that part	00:29
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ali1234	you were never going to get open hardware from meego anyway	00:29
berndhs	but the devices in the mobile market are considerably more locked up	00:29
ali1234	not really	00:30
ali1234	they're just harder to deal with because the circuit traces are so small	00:30
gabrbedd	well, as ali1234 said... HTC is no longer locking their bootloader.	00:30
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gabrbedd	You can also go OMAP (e.g. pandaboard, Blaze, etc.)	00:30
ali1234	htc bootloader "locks" have always been trivially circumvented anyway	00:30
gabrbedd	And there's Arduino	00:31
ali1234	or raspberry pi	00:31
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gabrbedd	And there's atom-based devices... or hell, even i-series devices.	00:31
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ali1234	hp playbooks	00:31
ali1234	or whatever those things were called	00:32
ali1234	the new amazon thing is omap4	00:32
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ali1234	kindle fire?	00:32
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ali1234	archos tablets	00:32
ali1234	and the chinese will always have a bargain basement tablet with no security at all, provided you can figure out their crazy soc design	00:32
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berndhs	what you would want is a device that can be developed for by hobbyists and installed by their spouses	00:33
ali1234	no	00:33
ali1234	nooooooooo	00:33
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ali1234	that's the last thing i would want	00:34
gprade	why?	00:34
berndhs	i don't know that you would want to aim at only the hobbyist market, I would want something maybe 5 times as big	00:34
gprade	i want something like the aava device, maybe the aava twist	00:35
ali1234	i wouldn't become a hardware vendor in the first place	00:35
berndhs	the hackers and their close friends	00:35
gprade	ok	00:35
ali1234	i think you've been brainwashed by the corporate types who must push the idea that software can only be called a success if it generates profit	00:35
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ali1234	i am not particularly interested in writing software for people who do not know how to install it	00:36
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berndhs	me? no, i just want a few other people to use my software, not only specialists	00:36
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ali1234	as i just said on another channel, i'm not interested in users who can't contribute new code for features, bug fixes, documentation, or at least semiliterate bug reports	00:37
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berndhs	i'm not terribly interested in those either, but I dont want to exclude people from the start	00:38
ali1234	if nothing else, that market is completely saturated	00:40
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ali1234	apple, microsoft, google	00:41
ali1234	canonical, gnome, kde	00:41
berndhs	i also want the possibility of doing special purpose devices for small markets	00:42
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berndhs	a few thousand devices maybe	00:42
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berndhs	if installation is hard, that won't work	00:42
ali1234	if i were going to make a special purpose device	00:43
ali1234	to give to some clueless users	00:43
ali1234	i wouldn't base it off hobbyist software	00:43
ali1234	i would base it off android	00:43
berndhs	what if android doesn't suit the target ?	00:44
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ali1234	if android doesn't suit the target it likely isn't a mobile device	00:44
berndhs	mobile doesn't have to mean a phone	00:44
ali1234	right, it means tablet computer or mobile phone	00:44
berndhs	just a handheld device	00:44
gabrbedd	android doesn't have to mean a phone, either.	00:44
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ali1234	if the device isn't either of those then it is either a laptop or desktop in which case the client will probably specify windows -> i use Qt (qwidgets)	00:45
rburton	ali1234: my brain is telling me not to ask, but what specifically are you counting as "hobbyist"?	00:45
ali1234	either that or it is a headless server, in which case i use centos or ubuntu	00:45
ali1234	rburton: people who, when they encounter a bug, fix it them selves, recompile the software themselves, and install the fixed version themselves	00:46
rburton	ali1234: "i wouldn't base it off hobbyist software" <-- that hobbyist	00:46
ali1234	rburton: well for example, if i were making some specialist device on android, i would pick cyanogenmod as a starting point	00:47
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ali1234	i wouldn't*	00:47
rburton	agreed. that would be insane.	00:47
rburton	you'd ask google nicely and beg for support	00:47
ali1234	however if i were using an android phone with cyanogenmod available, i would definitely install it	00:47
ali1234	for my own person phone i mean	00:47
berndhs	for many purposes, use a java based solution is wrong	00:47
ali1234	android has native C development too	00:48
javispedro	that is completely broken	00:48
ali1234	basically the software that i use and the software that i recommend that other people use do not have to be exactly the same	00:48
ali1234	i can use gentoo	00:48
ali1234	i'm not going to recommend that some company give gentoo for their secretary to do word processing on	00:49
ali1234	companies like intel and canonical are pushing the idea that things like meego are for "everyone" but they are not	00:49
ali1234	they are pushing this idea because it is cheap, and nobody likes to be told they can only have the dumbed down version with no sharp edges	00:50
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ali1234	and you can say i am elitist or whatever, but it is the truth	00:51
javispedro	ali1234: actually, I would be happy to live in your utopia, but it doesn't exist.	00:51
berndhs	sure, they disrespect the mass market, thinking (saying) those people are stupid, and they disrespect the rest, saying they are a minority	00:51
ali1234	it exists if you want it to exist	00:51
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ali1234	berndhs: no, that's what i do	00:52
javispedro	ali1234: but I am a single man. The dumb-following companies have the money.	00:52
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ali1234	javispedro: like someone said, they don't have the money. you have the money, they have the products	00:52
ali1234	the other thing you can say is "well, you're being an idealist, and we won't get anywhere without compromise"	00:53
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ali1234	and to that i say, look where compromise has gotten us	00:53
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javispedro	well, that is the "compromise" part. that you have to follow the dumb.	00:54
ali1234	javispedro: except that i can't even do that because meego is dead and no devices	00:54
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javispedro	not much worse than what would have happened without the compromise..	00:55
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ali1234	almost exactly the same in fact	00:55
javispedro	touché.	00:56
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javispedro	so yeah, you could argue it has been a loss so far.	00:56
ali1234	well, except that we could have done something productive with our time instead of waste it on maemo and meego	00:56
ali1234	like for example, work on reverse engineering hardware that actually exists	00:56
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javispedro	that is a race you can't completely win	00:57
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ali1234	sure i can	00:58
javispedro	I am quite sure that by now you still have not reverse engineered all the hardware on your desktop	00:58
ali1234	it worked just fine for the first 10-15 years of linux	00:58
javispedro	and no one has. and the desktop is already dying.	00:58
javispedro	(or so they say)	00:58
ali1234	whut?	00:58
ali1234	all the hardware in my desktop?	00:58
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ali1234	ok, so there's still nvidia driver	00:59
ali1234	apart from that there is nothing left to reverse engineer on this desk	00:59
javispedro	you could argue that there's a point where you don't need to go	00:59
javispedro	but there's a lot	00:59
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ali1234	i no longer buy PC hardware if it doesn't have a linux driver	01:00
ali1234	unless i think i can write one	01:00
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javispedro	by the time you can do that on a phone, they'll be talking about the next big thing, whatever that is	01:02
ali1234	so what? a phone is still a phone	01:02
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ali1234	they've already got to the point where the only thing they can think of to make the phones seem "new" is 3d screens and transfering files by rubbing your phone on someone else's	01:02
ali1234	both of which nobody at all cares about	01:03
javispedro	tbh I cannot really think of anything I really cared since a few years other than increased specs	01:03
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javispedro	still they managed to consistently avoid to create a PC-like standard.	01:03
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ali1234	everything is about apps, social networks, and augmented reality now	01:04
ali1234	all of which are software	01:04
ali1234	and all of which are quite uninteresting to me, since i can't patch any of them	01:04
ali1234	see i have only one requirement for the software that i use:	01:04
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ali1234	if i find a bug, can i fix it myself without having to be blessed by the developer of that software?	01:05
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ali1234	nothing else in the free software manefesto interests me in the slightest	01:05
javispedro	that's too bad	01:07
javispedro	cause even windows fits the bill.	01:07
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ali1234	yes, it does, for certain classes of bug	01:07
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ali1234	and i've fixed bugs in proprietary software by adding workarounds to the open source platform they runs on	01:08
ali1234	but most bugs in windows are not fixable	01:08
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javispedro	you should add more of the items in the manifesto then ;)	01:09
javispedro	*from the manifesto	01:09
ali1234	no, i don't need them	01:09
javispedro	technically, most bugs in windows are fixable, with the right dissasembler	01:09
javispedro	actually, with the right editor.	01:09
ali1234	not in a reasonable amount of time	01:09
javispedro	aha, that's something to add to the manifesto ;)	01:09
javispedro	I'd at least leave the parts that talk about the source code	01:10
ali1234	note i said "can i fix it" not "can it be fixed"	01:10
ali1234	i don't care if some assembly genius can patch it	01:10
ali1234	if i can't fix it with only google for backup, i won't use it	01:10
ali1234	the amount of time i am willing to spend depends on what alternatives exist for that software, and how easy it is to fix those	01:11
ali1234	so for example, with flash, it was easier to create a sort of sandbox to make it run properly, than to fix the hundreds of problems in any of the free alternatives	01:12
javispedro	dunno, thought you were taking the elitist part to the extreme and were an assembly guru :P	01:13
ali1234	no, that's the reducto-absurdum argument that people usually use against this part of my rant	01:13
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ali1234	although sometimes i will pull out the disassembler... not for x86 code though, it's just too nasty	01:13
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ali1234	now java is a whole different thing	01:14
ali1234	i love that java basically disassembles back into pristine source 99% of the time	01:14
ali1234	that's about the only thing i do like about it	01:15
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npm	if the desktop is dead, howcome i've been getting some sweet patches and updates to http://code.google.com/p/mudita24/ ... and are musicians supposed to mix their music on a handheld or tablet w/ crappy USB soundcards?	01:30
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npm	^^ re javispedro comment from scrollback	01:31
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npm	but i guess we'll be writing stuff like that in HTML right?	01:33
npm	because ALSA has such a great javascript interface :-)	01:33
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ali1234	i know right	01:36
ali1234	the desktop is only dead as a mass market entertainment device for accessing youtube and facebook	01:36
ali1234	which is currently 90% of the market	01:36
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ali1234	but hey, i bet someone somewhere is still selling typewriters too	01:37
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thiago	developers and gamers	01:37
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thiago	professional applications as well	01:38
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thiago	do you expect autocad or maya on a tablet?	01:38
ali1234	exactly	01:38
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ali1234	these are the types of applications i want to use and develop	01:38
ali1234	don't forget scientific computing/bioinformatics etc	01:39
berndhs	how dead is the desktop market ? a few hundred million units per year ?	01:39
ali1234	are you gonna run DNA sequencing algorithms on a tablet, coded in javascript? no...	01:40
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Arno[Slack]	just kept up with all the announcement and mailing list and whoa... Letting down meego wasn't enought they absolutly add to choose this slower and crappier framework GTK... That's what they want to use as an alternative to the so promising (in the not-so-near futur) html5...	02:50
Arno[Slack]	suddenly java does not look so bad...	02:51
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Ken-Young	Arno[Slack], Yes, it's very, very demoralizing.	02:53
Arno[Slack]	agreed	02:53
Arno[Slack]	html5 was already a hard punch (I mean come on, despite fart apps and rss readers what will we see in the appup ?)	02:54
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Arno[Slack]	but adding this so called "ndk" in GTK... Whoa... Better go back to Android	02:54
ali1234	they are going back to gtk? LOL	02:56
Arno[Slack]	that's what I heard with this seedkit thing	02:56
Ken-Young	Maybe the network stack will be based on UUCP.	02:57
Arno[Slack]	gtk+webkit or how to try to recreate qml in a slower and uglier way	02:57
ali1234	that's actually not such a terrible idea	02:57
ali1234	UUCP i mean, not gtk	02:57
Arno[Slack]	my heart stopped for a while !	02:58
ali1234	imagine a a p2p network	02:58
ali1234	automatic sneakernet	02:58
ali1234	using location information	02:58
ali1234	i want to send a file to fred	02:58
ali1234	so i encrypt it with his public key	02:58
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ali1234	then the software looks who is in wireless range of me, and how often the walk past freds house	02:59
ali1234	if they walk past it every day, they geta copy of the file	02:59
ali1234	next time they walk past fred's house, fred gets the file	02:59
ali1234	maybe slow and unreliable, but also completely unblockable and free	03:00
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M4rtinK	well, GTK is not that bad - provided you do all the GUI stuff yourself in a Cairo widget :)	03:02
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M4rtinK	other than this, I just don't get why there must be on single best toolkit any no others...	03:04
M4rtinK	why not have html5, GTK, Qt, EFL and Clutter available like any sane desktop distro...	03:04
Arno[Slack]	I hope so	03:05
Arno[Slack]	but I don't feel to confident on that	03:05
ali1234	like i keep saying... you don't have to buy into it	03:05
M4rtinK	sometimes I think SHR will win in the end :D	03:05
Arno[Slack]	Intel has proved its capacity to take all the bad decision over the past few years	03:05
M4rtinK	they are going slowly, but still forward :)	03:06
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M4rtinK	and everything is happening in the open, not somewhere behind closed doors...	03:06
Arno[Slack]	and real open sources os have lived on mobile	03:06
wmarone	M4rtinK: when they can get drivers for the GPU...	03:06
M4rtinK	well, the funny thing is	03:07
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Arno[Slack]	Bada is ... well bada, meego dead, Android and Tizen are not open... too bad that was a nice try	03:07
M4rtinK	that there is an open driver for the GPU on the good old Neo FreeRunner :)	03:07
M4rtinK	and for everything else	03:08
wmarone	yes, but the freerunner is a joke now	03:08
M4rtinK	well, yeah	03:08
wmarone	well, before too	03:08
Arno[Slack]	lots of jokes have we ;-)	03:08
M4rtinK	but still gets all the new libraries, kernels and Python versions :)	03:08
M4rtinK	that does not mean it is usable but clearly demonstrates the benefits of open drivers :)	03:09
wmarone	well, you don't have to convince US of that ;P	03:09
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Arno[Slack]	I wonder what this will do : http://nomovok.com/news/56/73/Nomovok-provides-Tizen-with-integrated-Qt	03:12
npm	is there some kind of special distress call we can give over to Canonical , who still at least embrace Qt?	03:13
Arno[Slack]	looks the work is already done (again I don't see any issue in packaging Qt on a Linux distro)	03:13
SpeedEvil	M4rtinK: Open drivers - which are unfortunately not helped by the fact the graphics hw is a pile of shite.	03:15
Arno[Slack]	well I'll go to bed still convince my Qt lib for Google+ will be useful to some... I hope :-)	03:16
M4rtinK	SpeedEvil: yep, that was one of the less smart decisions done by the hardware developers	03:16
berndhs	oh very likely it will	03:17
npm	Arno[Slack]: where is the project? might be useful to me	03:17
SpeedEvil	M4rtinK: Though it illuminates the hardware problems faced by open hardware.	03:17
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Arno[Slack]	still very early stage, not worth releasing yet	03:17
SpeedEvil	M4rtinK: That appeared to be the best solution at the time.	03:17
Arno[Slack]	I can give you the github url, but I still have lots of work to do	03:17
M4rtinK	SpeedEvil: might have been the only available GPU with open drivers	03:17
SpeedEvil	M4rtinK: The docs were closed, and by the time the limittions were realise, there wasn't enough cash to back out.	03:17
M4rtinK	ort something like that	03:18
M4rtinK	oh	03:18
SpeedEvil	M4rtinK: It would actually have been faster generally not to have a GPU, and to use the bare framebuffer on the chip	03:18
M4rtinK	damn :)	03:18
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M4rtinK	so its even slowing it down ?	03:19
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npm	is it true that google's http://www.atoker.com/blog/2008/09/06/skia-graphics-library-in-chrome-first-impressions/ doesn't do acceleration?	03:20
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SpeedEvil	M4rtinK: Not in all instances - some operations are faster.	03:21
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M4rtinK	anyway, even with the best uboot and KMS-kernel combination the performance is still pretty bad - the Qt Moko distro seems to be quite fast and usable on the Neo	03:21
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SpeedEvil	M4rtinK: But it's - overall - especially with the extremely nasty driver - slower. For example - the bus to the chip is ~7Mbytes/s. And the CPU can do nothing else while transferring.	03:23
SpeedEvil	As context - this is about the same speed as a 16 bit ISA card.	03:23
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DocScrutinizer	well, the mmc interface was the main reason we got that glamo crap	03:23
M4rtinK	were some other GPUs considered ?	03:24
DocScrutinizer	I dunno, been before my time, but afaik it was mainly a one-man decision, and I guess there were pretty few alternatives	03:25
DocScrutinizer	it's not like GPU chips for embedded are available at abundance	03:26
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DocScrutinizer	in a similar situation we considered to get the needed 2nd mmc if via a mux, but then there were voltage level problems, so this wasn't a feasible alternative	03:27
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M4rtinK	interesting info, thanks ! :)	03:35
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zeroproximity1	did anyone put meego on hp touchpad?	05:32
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zeroproximity1	what the best tablet to get if you want to install native meego on it	05:41
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iekku	morning	06:20
zeroproximity1	did anyone put meego on hp touchpad?	06:24
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slonopotamus	soooo... meego is dead too? :) new brand is tizen?	08:16
raster	so the press seems to say	08:17
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slonopotamus	hehe	08:19
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exman	I've seen that Qt'll be continue to use in MeeGo netbook UX. I wonder that only handset/tablet UX'll be changed to Tizen or All UX'll be changed to Tizen	08:21
Alison_Chaiken	Tizen has little to do with MeeGo. It's LiMo with a new name. I can't think of why MeeGo people would be interested at all unless they work for Intel.	08:22
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raster	indeed	08:23
raster	tizen != meego	08:23
Alison_Chaiken	Is Tizen even going to take any of MeeGo's existing code? Intel and Linux Foundation are joining LiMo, and Samsung is giving it a new name is all.	08:23
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raster	the only relationship to meego is that intel is involved in both meego and tizen (or was involved in meego)	08:23
Alison_Chaiken	Unless another company takes MeeGo, its future is as a community-supported embedded distro, comparable to Angstrom.	08:23
Alison_Chaiken	Raster, concur.	08:24
raster	and imad has directed people look at tizen for future activity	08:24
raster	al indeed	08:24
raster	Alison_Chaiken: indeed	08:24
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slonopotamus	i didn't go with meego, i neither go with tizen. too much politics and useless frictions (like fighting with Qt repackaging), too little action/development.	08:24
raster	so tizen is a NEW distribution/OS	08:25
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raster	slonopotamus: so why are u here? other than to gloat?	08:25
raster	:)	08:25
slonopotamus	raster: as a spectator	08:25
exman	Do you think that intel 'll continue to develop the MeeGo ?	08:25
raster	(and dont tell me that there arent any politics in othert distros - they are all full of them)	08:26
raster	exman: i have no idea	08:26
raster	ask intel	08:26
slonopotamus	raster: there are some useful bits after all	08:26
raster	slonopotamus: so.. you are making a complete judgjment on tizen without ever having seen its code, the os, it runing or knowing whatts inside or even who is involved (in detail) ?	08:27
raster	:)	08:27
exman	raster, Look stopped all meego development from intel side. Because, last night build image of MeeGo was at august.	08:27
slonopotamus	i don't understand when people decided that mixing software development with disto maintainance is a good thing	08:27
raster	sounds to me like you are not just judging a book by its cover, but judging it by the rumor mill that is commenting on a slashdot article that is commenting on a bunch of comments made by observers who have read a press release :)	08:28
slonopotamus	let's create a distro around Samba, uh?	08:28
raster	slonopotamus: whats what ubuntu is	08:28
raster	tyhats what debian is	08:28
raster	thats what all distros are	08:28
raster	they make a distro AROUND some political point	08:28
slonopotamus	or BluezLinux, how do you like that?	08:28
raster	if you have ever had to build a phone before.. you'll know that you have to do quite a lot of work	08:29
raster	its MUCH more than "samba"	08:29
raster	its like building a distro around kde + samba + apache + mysql + 10 other VERY specific things	08:29
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raster	i've been doing this for years... your view is definitely based on a very false premise	08:30
slonopotamus	there are over 9000 distros already, nobody needs a new one, it's the other way round, there are too many distros already. what's valuable is software.	08:30
raster	then... whats wrong with doing a distro built AROUND software?	08:31
raster	a distro is basicallly integration AND choice ofg components	08:31
raster	to make a PRODUCt u have to do both of these	08:31
raster	they are necessary MUSTST	08:31
raster	MUSTS	08:31
slonopotamus	making distro around software leads to situations when that software cannot work anywhere except that distro.	08:31
raster	to make a phone - for example, you ALSO have to WRITe a large blob of software as it doesnt exist in the rest of the existing linux ecosystem	08:31
raster	telephony stack, telephony centric apps, a whole ui based around fingers and small screens	08:32
raster	and it has to also perform well on the more minimal arm hardware you have	08:32
raster	slonopotamus: and does that matter?	08:32
raster	if you wish it to work elsewhere.. port it.	08:33
raster	you can.	08:33
slonopotamus	raster: so make a repo in launchpad and add it to your ubuntu /etc/apt/sources.list.	08:33
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raster	if the people paid to write the software focus on the platform that they actually ship as a product and that makes them money.. why shouldnt they focus on that?	08:33
slonopotamus	raster: the difference is where most of effort is put. either in development or in distro maintainance	08:33
raster	you assume that canonical has the same goals as those making the phones	08:33
raster	and that its easy to work with them	08:34
raster	and not have to make sacrifices	08:34
Stskeeps	ah, i see raster no longer has to put up a disclaimer ;)	08:34
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raster	heheheh	08:34
slonopotamus	meh	08:34
raster	Stskeeps: no - just generic talk	08:34
Stskeeps	yeah, yeah, i was really enjoying the silence ;)	08:34
raster	slonopotamus: u have no idea how little it matters	08:34
raster	:)	08:34
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raster	Stskeeps: hahahaa	08:35
raster	Stskeeps: get used to it around here :/	08:35
slonopotamus	libreoffice guys manage to develop an office suite without creating a distro too for some mysterious reason	08:35
slonopotamus	oh, and worse, Linux kernel doesn't have it's own distro too	08:35
raster	1. they arent a hardware manufacturer whose job it is to make money SELLINg devices	08:35
slonopotamus	so what's so special in telephony stack?	08:35
raster	2. they are not even a company that is making money from selling libreoffice as a product on its own	08:36
raster	slonopotamus: 1. telephony hardware, 2. power management, 3. performance, 4. fingers and touchscreens	08:36
* dm8tbr waits for the microsoft announcement that WP7.x will be tizen-compliant. - after all it's just html5		08:36
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raster	5. footprint	08:36
w00t	dm8tbr: they're more likely laughing hard	08:37
slonopotamus	dm8tbr: :)	08:37
dm8tbr	w00t: sure, then they will embrace, extend and extinguish	08:37
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Myrtti	I cant help but think one thing	08:37
slonopotamus	raster: w/e, i'll continue spectating around :) and picking out valuable bits	08:37
* dm8tbr fails to understand why 'mobile phones should have html5' needs a whole organization outside the w3c		08:38
Myrtti	I am glad lcuk isnt here to see all the bickering and the death of hope	08:38
dm8tbr	but the whole titzen thing is way too vague at the moment.	08:39
* dm8tbr certainly won't go near it before they put some substance behind their empty press release		08:39
dm8tbr	and the purported 'invite-only-open-source' scheme sounds an awful lot like Android to me. revealism par excellence.	08:40
Alison_Chaiken	Check this out: http://limofoundation.org/en/Press-Releases/limo-foundation-and-linux-foundation-announce-new-open-source-software-platform.html	08:40
Alison_Chaiken	Huh, when Linux and LiMo Foundations discuss Tizen, THEY DON'T MENTION MEEGO EVEN ONCE.	08:40
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dm8tbr	sure, meego is considered 'toxic'. that's pretty obvious	08:41
dm8tbr	and besides that it's just lot's of hot air	08:42
w00t	the brand has kind of repeatedly been dragged through the mud	08:42
raster	dm8tbr: all open source works that way	08:42
w00t	and kicked many, many times	08:42
Alison_Chaiken	Only Intel is pretending that LiMo is Qt-based. It's not. "Tizen" is lipstick on the LiMo pig to provide cover to Intel and LF, although LF is hardly embarassed.	08:42
dm8tbr	raster: I reserve to disagree	08:42
raster	you don't generally become part of an open source project unless "allowed in"	08:42
raster	you can comment on mailing lists and forums	08:42
raster	you can send patches all you like	08:42
raster	the develoeprs have no obligation to listen to you or even respond	08:43
raster	or take your patches	08:43
dm8tbr	raster: so every project is like AOSP? because that's what I said this looks like: AOSP	08:43
raster	nor give you any say over the project	08:43
Alison_Chaiken	Myrtti, was there ever a place to donate to lcuk's family? I never saw it.	08:43
dm8tbr	or s/AOSP/Android in general/	08:44
Myrtti	Alison_Chaiken: I believe talk.maemo.org thread has some info	08:44
raster	dm8tbr: "Membership in most project teams (Release Engineering, QA, Program Management, etc.) is invite-only and will mainly be open to people at companies who are building products based on Tizen."	08:45
raster	(release engineering, qa, pm etc.) is the stuff that the developers do in open source	08:45
raster	u dont get to just step in and join and have a say	08:45
dm8tbr	raster: the MeeGo project already had huge problems accepting the fact that there are interested people in the community that want to experiment with MeeGo and their devices.	08:45
raster	without some level of approval	08:45
dm8tbr	raster: with those statements I read 'closed' 'closed' 'closed' and 'don't even bother doing something without being a club member'	08:46
raster	reality is that in every project you simply have to minimize the noise	08:46
iekku	sounds like i can't participate to tizen	08:46
iekku	raster, where's that quote from?	08:46
raster	https://www.tizen.org/community	08:47
raster	actually wait	08:47
raster	release engineering, q and pm. sorry - my bad thats what DISTROS do	08:47
raster	ubuntu, redhat	08:47
iekku	:/	08:47
raster	dm8tbr: the next time that you can just be part of redhatr's QA or program mamagemtn (ie you can influence and determine timelines for rhel releaseS) let me know	08:47
raster	same for debian	08:48
raster	or canonical	08:48
raster	or...	08:48
dm8tbr	raster: we had a presentation by a redhat guy yesterday at openmind. I'd recommend to watch it. I quote him from memory 'This would simply NEVER work without the community, we would not exist'	08:48
raster	its the same	08:48
raster	you dont have to lecture me about redhat	08:48
Myrtti	guys...	08:49
raster	i worked there	08:49
raster	i know how redhat works	08:49
Myrtti	go get a mug of tea	08:49
iekku	Myrtti, morning	08:49
dm8tbr	raster: this is 'closed in general' - I don't argue that timelines need to be decided etc. but if communities are excluded by design, that's bad.	08:49
raster	trust me that this is how distros work	08:49
Myrtti	iekku: moin	08:49
raster	when it coems to distro releases - which is the invite only stuff there, community doesnt have a say	08:50
* dm8tbr shrugs and gets onto his paid work		08:50
raster	they have a say after release that goes into the NEXT release	08:50
raster	thats standard customer feedback	08:51
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raster	as listed there middleware development (which is vague) is open on a merit basis	08:51
raster	thats all open source projects i know of	08:52
raster	you dont get commit access to the src without going thru some approval	08:52
raster	and thats normally based on some form of merit	08:52
raster	:)	08:52
Myrtti	skilled hobbyists still have a chance tho	08:53
raster	yes	08:53
raster	"merit"	08:54
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Myrtti	"will mainly be open to people at companies who are building products based on Tizen"	08:55
Stskeeps	heh, improvement ;)	08:55
Myrtti	mainly be open is quite vague	08:56
raster	Myrtti: read that paragraph more carefully	08:56
raster	Myrtti: it makes 2 statements of 2 different ares of participation	08:57
Myrtti	you dont think its vague? ok	08:57
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amijay	Hello	09:01
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raster	Myrtti: yes it is	09:06
raster	Myrtti: as dawn said - details are being released over time	09:06
raster	u get vague things for now	09:06
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DawnFoster	exactly :)	09:07
iekku	hi DawnFoster	09:07
DawnFoster	hey everyone :)	09:08
DawnFoster	just checking in before I go to bed :)	09:08
w00t	DawnFoster: not switching the lights off just yet? ;)	09:08
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DawnFoster	definitely not	09:09
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DawnFoster	we want to spend time with people who've been working on meego to help transition over	09:09
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iekku	DawnFoster, that's good	09:11
Stskeeps	bbl work	09:11
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kontio	how can I delete my Meego account? whom do I need to ping? seems I can't do it in web interface my self...	10:42
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dm8tbr	kontio: prolly need to file a bug 'please delete my account'	10:44
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mardy	kontio: moving to tizen? ;-)	10:48
kontio	mardy, not really :-) but I guess I don't need that anymore... will you come tonight?	10:49
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mardy	kontio: yep	10:50
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kontio	mardy, cool cu you then...	10:52
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RST38h	Meanwhile: RIM has started to slash prices for its little-loved PlayBook in the US amid channel talk on this side of the pond that the fondleslabs are shifting more slowly than expected and inventory levels are out of control.	11:32
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gabriel9	http://mynokiablog.com/2011/09/29/linux-lives-at-nokia-project-meltemi-to-power-future-nokia-feature-phones-meego-lite/	11:43
gabriel9	what is meltemi?	11:44
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Wirta	nokias next linux based for low end phones	11:46
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gabriel9	now i am lost :/	11:48
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gabriel9	what to learn	11:48
gabriel9	what to buy	11:48
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Myrtti	has there been a press release on meltemi? if there has, it has gone below my radar	11:49
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Wirta	I would imagine meltemi is for indian margkets and such	11:49
Paimen	Myrtti: just leak that Nokia started to develop new os called meltemi	11:49
Myrtti	right ... nowadays Im so sceptic about Nokia leaks I dont really care	11:50
thiago	wtf	11:51
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thiago	btw, if you want access to the original article, follow the link from google news	11:54
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gabriel9	i did not want to advertise or promete this website, i just read news on it and past it	11:58
gabriel9	promote *	11:58
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RST38h	Yoohoo, they publicly announced Meltemi	12:13
Stskeeps	url?	12:13
RST38h	Stskeeps: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203405504576599011587667984.html?=MNB	12:13
Aard	RST38h: I wouldn't have high hopes in that, if I were you	12:13
Stskeeps	isnt that just a rumour?	12:14
RST38h	Aard: I have no hopes whatsoever	12:14
RST38h	Stskeeps: More of a controlled leak, if you ask me	12:14
RST38h	Stskeeps: Probably caused by a tinge of butthurt after the Tizen announcement =)	12:15
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harbaum	Nokia is like my son when trying to decide what to eat for dinner. No decision lasts longer than 12 seconds and once some slice of bread is close to being prepared he always changes his mind ...	12:26
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harbaum	But the namin meltimi is consitant with all other operating systems abandoned by nokia	12:28
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pabs3	whats this meltimi thing?	12:41
harbaum	seems to be something like "maemo light" for cheap nokia phones. But also sounds like something okia will abandon once it's in danger of becoming stable and mature	12:42
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chouchoune	Eldar Murtazin states on Twitter that Meltimi is mainly intended to not fire all MeeGo people in one time at Nokia	12:52
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pabs3	chouchoune: wut?	12:53
Stskeeps	chouchoune: wow	12:53
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chouchoune	eldarmurtazin Eldar Murtazin	12:53
chouchoune	Meltemi were created not for market needs but as a project to temporarily save MeeGo developers inside Nokia. They couldn't fire everyone :)	12:53
chouchoune	eldarmurtazin Eldar Murtazin	12:54
chouchoune	Nokia Meltemi project that's the Elop way not to cut off all Maemo/Meego developers in one raw. Project will last around 1.5-2 years.	12:54
SpeedEvil	Eldar's always good for a giggle.	12:54
pabs3	so its a way to waste devs time?	12:54
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pabs3	awesome	12:54
toninikkanen	have to remember eldar is only right 50% of the time	12:54
kyb3R	:)	12:54
chouchoune	pabs3: or to save jobs ;)	12:54
toninikkanen	in a company there is no "waste of devs time". If you work for a company, you give your time to the company and they give you money in return.	12:54
kyb3R	I might ask lottory numbers from eldar if the rate is 50%	12:55
pabs3	chouchoune: if I was working on it I would be spending work time on looking for another job ;)	12:55
chouchoune	I think, that non-strategic Nokia decisions could be the more successfull ones ;)	12:55
toninikkanen	kyb3R: calculate how likely you are going to win if you ask eldar "is 1 a good number", "is 2 a good number", ... and base your lottery on that	12:55
kyb3R	toninikkanen: I listen only 50% of his advice :)	12:56
chouchoune	just reporting, but that's believable	12:56
harbaum	i have moved my efforts from meego/maemo to symbian and must admit that the seems to be the only/perfect way to bring qt projects to some useful end. What do you guys do with your unfinished projects?	12:57
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RST38h	We finish them, no?	12:57
chouchoune	as in a company, you also need to keep a political way to avoid a social fight	12:57
RST38h	(and never start them for a platform that has no hardware shipping)	12:57
harbaum	Without hoping to ever address some audience?	12:57
khertan	Morning	12:57
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chouchoune	anyway, see you later, going to eat ;)	12:58
pabs3	harbaum: finish them and stick them in Fedora/Gentoo/Debian?	12:58
khertan	chouchoune: you should explain that to my boss	12:58
RST38h	harbaum: All of my stuff is portable, and it works equally well on maemo, symbian, harmattan and android	12:58
khertan	RST38h: how did you do ? no ui ?	12:58
harbaum	the problem with finishing them for a desktop os is that only few apps addressing mobiles makes sense on a desktop	12:58
RST38h	harbaum: Meego has never entered the picture due to the fact that there was never any meego hardware shipping	12:58
harbaum	Yeah, but there was a roadmapo and people worked with the roadmap in mind	12:59
RST38h	khertan: My own old skool UI for absolute necessities, overall platform dependent ui on top	12:59
pabs3	harbaum: I think those are general OSen rather than desktop OSen. all of them have ARM ports and a few are looking at adding mobile UIs like KDE Plasma Active or E17 Illume	12:59
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mcfrisk	Hello, where to get lzop for MeeGo?	15:11
Stskeeps	isn't it in trunk?	15:11
mcfrisk	maybe our snapshot is just missing it, will check	15:12
Kaadlajk	mcfrisk: devel:quality has it	15:12
Kaadlajk	I tried to push it to Trunk once	15:12
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Kaadlajk	but there was rollback or something and it got lost :P	15:12
mcfrisk	yes, so lzo libs are there but not lzop to compress a kernel	15:13
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CosmoHill	vgrade: how's the weather were you are?	16:43
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mcfrisk	Q: reverting a change in OBS, how to do it from osc? Our OBS 2.1.11 fails to revert from web interface, but maybe on osc it works.	16:45
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mcfrisk	hmm, osc co -r gives a python trace, but osc up -r does work.	16:49
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RST38h	kudos to thp	16:54
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araujo	w00t++	17:29
ehlim	hi all	17:29
araujo	hi ehlim	17:29
w00t	araujo: :)	17:30
w00t	let's see what happens	17:30
ehlim	well actually I here cause of recent meego news ...	17:30
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ehlim	and I wish meego could continue stay alive	17:31
w00t	ehlim: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2011-September/484156.html	17:31
araujo	w00t, I keep wondering what will happen with all the work so far, in terms of code, packages, infra, docs .....	17:32
w00t	araujo: it will keep going in some form	17:32
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w00t	this was merely saying "why do we need to go elsewhere to keep going" :)	17:32
araujo	I still wait for someone (probably from Intel or LF?) to raise up this issue, and drop the ball to the entire community then	17:33
veskuh	araujo: Stskeeps took backups of packages :) And the infra will probably stay up at least a year as intel promised to support meego untill fall 2012	17:34
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veskuh	As long as there are interested people, I'm sure that work will continue in some form	17:35
w00t	yup	17:35
araujo	veskuh, glad to know that ...... still, I think the community at least deserve an official announcement about these plans from someone or group of people ... it would help a lot	17:35
w00t	araujo: really, i don't think you'll ever get one	17:35
veskuh	For the CE we will have steering group meeting next tuesday	17:36
w00t	(further than you have now, which is that they're shifting towards a html5/tizen future)	17:36
veskuh	in meego-meeting obviously	17:36
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* araujo is liberal then and sends an email nominating w00t to be the Release Engineering Leader of MeeGo now		17:37
araujo	Everyone!, this is the time!, let's take over!	17:38
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veskuh	:-)	17:38
ehlim	haha	17:38
w00t	that's ... more or less the proposal, yeah	17:38
ehlim	could meego be non-profit poject?	17:39
w00t	well, it already more or less is	17:39
w00t	it has no product as such	17:39
w00t	the only thing that really needs to change is governance and giving some of the keys to the kingdom to people still willing to do work on it	17:39
ehlim	w00t: you mean meego was too restrictive before?	17:41
w00t	ehlim: it certainly didn't do a very good job at communication	17:41
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w00t	though I suspect tizen didn't help that	17:41
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ehlim	w00t: anyway, nokia n9 look like a nice phone though, sorry but I just heard the name meego just recently :)	17:46
w00t	ehlim: it sure does	17:46
* w00t has his on order		17:47
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ehlim	w00t: I am saving money to buy one :)	17:48
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w00t	:)	17:48
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vgrade	CosmoHill, not as good as it was in Spain	17:56
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CosmoHill	vgrade: it's hot here	18:17
CosmoHill	cooled down a little bit so I had a bike ride, 8.5 miles in 45 mins :)	18:17
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OCEOCE	hi	19:06
OCEOCE	where from could I download meego 1.2 for handset? cant find it at meegozone or any known to me places? could you help?	19:07
chouchoune	OCEOCE: for which device ?	19:07
chouchoune	wiki.meego.com might help you	19:08
OCEOCE	wel I want to try instal it on ARM device which is MT6235	19:08
OCEOCE	arm compatibile	19:08
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OCEOCE	I ve seen only 1.1 at meegozone and 1.2 has "disappeared"	19:09
chouchoune	http://wiki.meego.com/ARM	19:09
OCEOCE	thx a lot - I ll let you know if succesfull ;)	19:10
chouchoune	as far as I know, you might need hardfp graphical drivers for your ARM platform to be able to run MeeGo 1.2	19:10
OCEOCE	hmmm where from?	19:10
chouchoune	mmmhhh, from the manufacturer ;)	19:11
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OCEOCE	oh so that should not be a problem, certainly they will help ;D	19:12
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OCEOCE	simplicity of solution makes me happy ;)	19:12
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chouchoune	OCEOCE: who'is the manufacturer of your CPU ?	19:13
OCEOCE	Mediatech is China, and as far as I know they wanted to support MeeGo so perhaps this could work	19:14
OCEOCE	MT6235 is described in wikipedia - sims "similar" to N9 system-on-chip chip specificatio even DSP included	19:15
Venemo	if you are a good enoug low-level developer and you are ready to make a hardware adaptation, you could start at http://meego.gitorious.com - otherwise forget it. oh and BTW, MeeGo is dead since yesterday.	19:15
OCEOCE	well, this is not all - photos of Aawa I have found in net looks almost idenicly to harware I have - I suppose this is the same	19:16
OCEOCE	smal moodificayion of buttons	19:16
chouchoune	Aava ?	19:16
Sage	OCEOCE: You should check the Community Edition which is build for n900, n950 and ia32 and is based on the MTF Handset UX from MeeGo.	19:16
OCEOCE	yess that one	19:16
chouchoune	that's Intel based	19:16
chouchoune	it's not ARM	19:17
Sage	OCEOCE: the ia32 version works on the oaktrail and pinetrail Intel chips. We haven't tested the mrst that is in aava device.	19:17
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chouchoune	Sage: he shouldn't have an Aava handset as it's an ARM processor	19:18
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OCEOCE	I ll sacrifice my phone on altair of experiment ;)	19:18
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OCEOCE	I want to try if this could be booted from memory card	19:19
Sage	chouchoune: ah, well I got mixed in the discussion.	19:19
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OCEOCE	yes from what I know this ARM compatibile chinese chip	19:19
OCEOCE	yes this is ARM compatibile - so to say copied I suppose	19:20
OCEOCE	so Aava was on intel chip?	19:20
chouchoune	yes	19:20
Sage	:nod:	19:21
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Venemo	yes, Aava was a prototype Intel x86 chip AFAICR	19:22
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realnorth	Loren Ipsum	21:10
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w00t	testing something? ;)	21:12
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realnorth	yes, testing miRGGI in my N8	21:14
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pupnik	mirggi is pretty nice	21:17
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pupnik	i wish the list of links cached were longer	21:18
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Venemo	~seen zehjotkah	21:48
infobot	zehjotkah <~zehjotkah@84.22.107.1> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 6d 56s ago, saying: 'ah, yes, sorry: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Community_device_program/Nokia'.	21:49
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pupnik	there's also a bug with scrollback of input text	21:53
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npm	finally some straight answers from MeeGo IVI list: "There will be MeeGo v1.2 Release Updates in Q3/Q4’11 to meet customer release schedules and requirements but no new MeeGo releases are planned. Engineering support for MeeGo 1.1 and 1.2 Releases will continue through Fall 2012"	21:58
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pupnik	there's a qt xkcd viewer	22:15
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gabrbedd	w00t: thanks for the tweet.	22:16
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w00t	gabrbedd: :)	22:17
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lbt_away	Aard: ping	22:57
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Aard	pong	22:57
lbt	The important news from this week	22:57
lbt	I took photos in duty free :)	22:57
Aard	\o/	22:57
phaeron	:P	22:58
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lbt	hehe	22:59
lbt	phaeron: for some reason I just remembered that I was doing Aard a favour in duty free :)	22:59
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Aard	I thought I'm doing you a favour (i.e., going shopping with other peoples money) :p	23:01
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mikeleib	Stskeeps: another few bugs for you	23:02
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lbt	yeah ... did you ever find they tasted a touch... watery?	23:02
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Stskeeps	mikeleib: send'em over, when can i start assigning tizen bugs to you? ;)	23:02
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tripzero	tizen... bugs... lols	23:03
mikeleib	tizen has no bugs ;)	23:03
tripzero	it has unicorns!	23:03
mikeleib	and rainbows!	23:03
tripzero	double rainbows	23:03
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Stskeeps	tripzero: i did actually ponder if unicorn would be a better name than tizen	23:03
Stskeeps	:P	23:03
tripzero	lol	23:03
mikeleib	the rainbows actually shoot right out of the rear of the unicorns	23:03
mikeleib	it's weird	23:04
tripzero	weird and possibly painful	23:04
Aard	lbt: got it uploaded somewhere?	23:04
lbt	bug 1 ... "Timer is ticking and shows 15months" ... "Critical"	23:04
_MeeGoBot_	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1 maj, Medium, ---, vivian.zhang, VERI FIXED, [Tracker] tracker-miner-fs should be auto-started after system boot	23:04
Stskeeps	mikeleib: generally when i see the wrong assignees pop up in triages, we move them along :)	23:04
lbt	Aard: working on it	23:04
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* mikeleib resolves some bugs		23:05
mikeleib	such as bug 10	23:05
_MeeGoBot_	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10 enh, Low, ---, michael.leibowitz, RESO WONTFIX, Package ECB required	23:05
ulf^	LOL	23:05
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Stskeeps	bug 42	23:06
lbt	Aard: http://www.flickr.com/photos/96141280@N00/sets/72157627782181472/	23:06
_MeeGoBot_	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=42 nor, Medium, 1.1, robert, VERI FIXED, x11perf regression in MeeGo 0319 image	23:06
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Aard	thanks	23:07
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* mikeleib resolves several bugs		23:09
thiago	what is ECB?	23:09
lbt	we had news that infra will be supported for quite a while	23:10
lbt	I'll get some update from stefano and adam	23:10
mikeleib	emacs code browser, dood	23:10
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ulf^	lbt, no one's told me not to accept any submissions	23:10
lbt	mikeleib: some people :)	23:10
lbt	ulf^: cool ... but apparently we'll be getting workers in c.obs now	23:11
lbt	although...	23:11
ulf^	lbt, that I don't know about...	23:11
lbt	I wonder if we can open up the RE team in MeeGo and access to core obs?	23:11
Aard	lbt: who'll replace the intel release team? I've been waiting for a devel group now for about a month...	23:11
lbt	we just got some automation sorted in cobs	23:11
Stskeeps	ulf^: and thanks for accepting the submissions :)	23:11
ulf^	Stskeeps, no worries. You are welcome.	23:11
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* mikeleib sends more bz email to Stskeeps		23:12
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* Stskeeps ponders idly to change bugzilla id		23:12
ulf^	Stskeeps, how is Wayland coming along?	23:12
mikeleib	Zarro Boogs found.	23:13
* mikeleib wins the bugzilla war		23:13
lbt	Stskeeps: well, please raise a bug to implement a bugs.pub.meego.com for CE	23:13
Stskeeps	ulf^: well, i was waiting for a bug to be fixed in some parts of qt5 and well, that took a little more time than intended	23:13
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Stskeeps	ulf^: now looking at what tizen is all about and well, the arm side of things, hopefully there's areas to work with	23:16
ulf^	Stskeeps, sure	23:16
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OCEOCE	I'd like to take under devs concideration this: MeeGo/Tizen suffer lack of dual sim card support. This is common in asians phones to have more then one phone number (sim card) active but at the same time. Could you pay atention to this?	23:24
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OCEOCE	In next release	23:25
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OCEOCE	In fact I'd propose to make possibilit multi sim card, so hardware would determin if 2 or 3 or more sim card could be connected.	23:27
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wmarone	OCEOCE, hardware specifics like that are somewhat out of scope for the platform.	23:28
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OCEOCE	just that is why I want to take it under consideration, this is mistake IMHO	23:28
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ShadowJK	Does ofono's api prevent dualsim?	23:29
Stskeeps	dunno? i would doubt it	23:30
ShadowJK	Or to put it in another way: is there anything preventing someone from making a dualsim meego/tizen device?	23:30
OCEOCE	In mobile this is extremly convinient to have possibility in the same unit 1phone for work (1 numbr and sim) 2nd phone for pivate use (2 number and simm) and 3rd for alerts from server via sms :) Conisder this please.	23:31
OCEOCE	Seems current MeeGo do not allow this/such dualism	23:32
SpeedEvil	OCEOCE: why do you think it doesn't?	23:33
SpeedEvil	OCEOCE: I admit, there are no dualsim meego mobiles.	23:33
OCEOCE	On the other hand IVI can have 1 sim card for regular phone and 2 sim for thieth monitoring/alarm	23:33
SpeedEvil	But that's because there are no meego mobiles at all.	23:33
DocScrutinizer	that's not a hw related thing, you could have multiple lines even with one physical SIM - dialer has to know how to deal with it	23:33
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SpeedEvil	There are some that simplyswitch active SIM	23:34
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OCEOCE	N9 exists I asked at nokia they siad MeeGo do not allow - in my limited knowleadge I have believed	23:35
Stskeeps	yes, but n9 isn't, well, meego.com	23:35
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OCEOCE	well - just I d like to point the problem to you - taht relates to any mobile now and in future	23:36
OCEOCE	I suppose if MeeGo would allow this - such dual/triple mobile would appear	23:37
Stskeeps	right	23:37
OCEOCE	Technicly this is possible as many devices does dual or triple card active in the same time	23:38
OCEOCE	eg motorola triple sim	23:38
DocScrutinizer	it'd be rather interesting to see how ofono, dialer etc are reacting to phonet0 and phonet1 (or whatever the names of the NIC devices on meego) both up and working same time	23:38
OCEOCE	As a user I have collected how dual sim phone behaves, I can send it - if that coud help	23:40
OCEOCE	First is that all card are active the same time - seems it logs in one after another, they dont have to login at the same moment	23:43
DocScrutinizer	I'd think the maemo dialer (sorry for referring to that one here) would just offer 2 distinct GSM services in the top service selector	23:43
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OCEOCE	when diling after taking contanct or typing number, a number of sim card to make onnection is to be choosen	23:44
OCEOCE	when phone is ringing, device shows card number, when picked up second card goes answering machine	23:46
OCEOCE	Register of calls incoming/outcoming shows icon displaying which sim card entry is related to, for all entries	23:47
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SpeedEvil	OCEOCE: N9 isn't meego.	23:48
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SpeedEvil	OCEOCE: Dual SIM support is probably a good idea though, but is likely to be a very low priority.	23:48
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SpeedEvil	Simply as there is - as far as I know - no open hardware that could run it.	23:49
OCEOCE	Forgive me that name of device	23:49
SpeedEvil	Most of the dual-SIM phones are very low end.	23:49
OCEOCE	Wrong IMHO, from user point of view this question of comfort during use - this is one of greates motivator for users	23:49
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SpeedEvil	Umm - right.	23:50
SpeedEvil	This is quite irrelevant.	23:50
OCEOCE	I am aware this does not exist - so asking about	23:50
SpeedEvil	If there is no hardware, making the software to support it does nothing.	23:50
OCEOCE	Well - question of advantage at the market	23:50
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lbt	OCEOCE: do you have a detailed spec of what features dual-SIM would provide ?	23:51
OCEOCE	Again: if software can't support dual sim - who would decide to make 2 sim connectors?	23:51
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OCEOCE	To certain level (user ) yes	23:51
lbt	where?	23:52
Stskeeps	we don't really have any official handset ux and ofono and dual sim you'd have to ask the ofono guys about	23:52
Stskeeps	as it's a modem level issue	23:52
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SpeedEvil	Modem level, and UX level	23:52
OCEOCE	lbt: I simply wrote it myself	23:52
* lbt can't really speak to the modem level		23:52
SpeedEvil	The main point is that meego isn't generally a finished phone OS. It's a core, to which the maker has to add bits to get a functional polished phone.	23:53
lbt	OCEOCE: if it is sufficiently well structured then maybe you should produce a wiki page or something about the issue	23:53
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: considering it from very beginning for the architecture is a good thing(TM) though	23:53
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SpeedEvil	It should be considered as an architectural point.	23:53
SpeedEvil	But coding for it wastes coders time.	23:53
lbt	and analysis (or even scanning) the UX requirements should identify any major architectural issues	23:53
DocScrutinizer	sure	23:54
SpeedEvil	At least in the near term	23:54
lbt	yeah - but there's coding for it ands hardcoding getSIM==scalar and not getSIMS==list	23:54
Stskeeps	"In fact, Asus expects Intel to release MeeGo v.1.3 any day now and "hopefully hardware accelerated Flash in the near future." In February, Intel announced that MeeGo v.1.3, a followup to v.1.2, would be released in October 2011."	23:54
Stskeeps	errmm.	23:54
Stskeeps	a very good question: is 1.3 realistic to make happen?	23:55
lbt	EWRONGWIN ?	23:55
DocScrutinizer	though in my book there's not much problems on a phonet arch. You just need to load the isi stack twice, and point it to the proper interfaces, then create two rtcom accounts	23:55
Stskeeps	lbt: no	23:55
RST38h	so, 1.3 is coming?	23:55
Stskeeps	RST38h: we use it in CE and we're actually fairly happy with it	23:55
Stskeeps	a lot of fixes staged in Trunk:Testing	23:55
OCEOCE	I am using dual sim device - I can try to do this specification (in my limited competence) - please direct me: where it should occur?	23:56
OCEOCE	I doubt it will fullfill all dev's requirement but perhaps it can be completed with sb's else help	23:57
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OCEOCE	I think there are plenty of dual sim users, so I am not the only one	23:58
OCEOCE	which also proves this is needed in real	23:59

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