IRC log of #meego for Thursday, 2011-09-29

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gabrbeddI've come to like RPM... but what do people know about http://www.emdebian.org/00:19
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CosmoHillgabrbedd: hehe00:24
berndhsI think there are a few good choices for upstream distros. The main issue is, where do you get devices that let you run it ?00:26
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ali1234berndhs: htc00:28
berndhsyes if you can guarantee them a half-way interesting number of sales00:28
ali1234berndhs: no you don't understand. you buy an android device and put whatever on it00:29
ali1234the same way we did with windows pcs for 20 years00:29
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gabrbeddberndhs: we're no longer talking about mass-market.  We're talking about hobbyists playing with off-the-shelf devices.00:29
berndhsyes i understand that part00:29
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ali1234you were never going to get open hardware from meego anyway00:29
berndhsbut the devices in the mobile market are considerably more locked up00:29
ali1234not really00:30
ali1234they're just harder to deal with because the circuit traces are so small00:30
gabrbeddwell, as ali1234 said... HTC is no longer locking their bootloader.00:30
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gabrbeddYou can also go OMAP (e.g. pandaboard, Blaze, etc.)00:30
ali1234htc bootloader "locks" have always been trivially circumvented anyway00:30
gabrbeddAnd there's Arduino00:31
ali1234or raspberry pi00:31
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gabrbeddAnd there's atom-based devices... or hell, even i-series devices.00:31
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ali1234hp playbooks00:31
ali1234or whatever those things were called00:32
ali1234the new amazon thing is omap400:32
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ali1234kindle fire?00:32
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ali1234archos tablets00:32
ali1234and the chinese will always have a bargain basement tablet with no security at all, provided you can figure out their crazy soc design00:32
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berndhswhat you would want is a device that can be developed for by hobbyists and installed by their spouses00:33
ali1234no00:33
ali1234nooooooooo00:33
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ali1234that's the last thing i would want00:34
gpradewhy?00:34
berndhsi don't know that you would want to aim at only the hobbyist market, I would want something maybe 5 times as big00:34
gpradei want something like the aava device, maybe the aava twist00:35
ali1234i wouldn't become a hardware vendor in the first place00:35
berndhsthe hackers and their close friends00:35
gpradeok00:35
ali1234i think you've been brainwashed by the corporate types who must push the idea that software can only be called a success if it generates profit00:35
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ali1234i am not particularly interested in writing software for people who do not know how to install it00:36
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berndhsme? no, i just want a few other people to use my software, not only specialists00:36
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ali1234as i just said on another channel, i'm not interested in users who can't contribute new code for features, bug fixes, documentation, or at least semiliterate bug reports00:37
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berndhsi'm not terribly interested in those either, but I dont want to exclude people from the start00:38
ali1234if nothing else, that market is completely saturated00:40
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ali1234apple, microsoft, google00:41
ali1234canonical, gnome, kde00:41
berndhsi also want the possibility of doing special purpose devices for small markets00:42
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berndhsa few thousand devices maybe00:42
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berndhsif installation is hard, that won't work00:42
ali1234if i were going to make a special purpose device00:43
ali1234to give to some clueless users00:43
ali1234i wouldn't base it off hobbyist software00:43
ali1234i would base it off android00:43
berndhswhat if android doesn't suit the target ?00:44
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ali1234if android doesn't suit the target it likely isn't a mobile device00:44
berndhsmobile doesn't have to mean a phone00:44
ali1234right, it means tablet computer or mobile phone00:44
berndhsjust a handheld device00:44
gabrbeddandroid doesn't have to mean a phone, either.00:44
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ali1234if the device isn't either of those then it is either a laptop or desktop in which case the client will probably specify windows -> i use Qt (qwidgets)00:45
rburtonali1234: my brain is telling me not to ask, but what specifically are you counting as "hobbyist"?00:45
ali1234either that or it is a headless server, in which case i use centos or ubuntu00:45
ali1234rburton: people who, when they encounter a bug, fix it them selves, recompile the software themselves, and install the fixed version themselves00:46
rburtonali1234: "i wouldn't base it off hobbyist software" <-- that hobbyist00:46
ali1234rburton: well for example, if i were making some specialist device on android, i would pick cyanogenmod as a starting point00:47
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ali1234i wouldn't*00:47
rburtonagreed. that would be insane.00:47
rburtonyou'd ask google nicely and beg for support00:47
ali1234however if i were using an android phone with cyanogenmod available, i would definitely install it00:47
ali1234for my own person phone i mean00:47
berndhsfor many purposes, use a java based solution is wrong00:47
ali1234android has native C development too00:48
javispedrothat is completely broken00:48
ali1234basically the software that i use and the software that i recommend that other people use *do not have to be exactly the same*00:48
ali1234i can use gentoo00:48
ali1234i'm not going to recommend that some company give gentoo for their secretary to do word processing on00:49
ali1234companies like intel and canonical are pushing the idea that things like meego are for "everyone" but they are not00:49
ali1234they are pushing this idea because it is cheap, and nobody likes to be told they can only have the dumbed down version with no sharp edges00:50
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ali1234and you can say i am elitist or whatever, but it is the truth00:51
javispedroali1234: actually, I would be happy to live in your utopia, but it doesn't exist.00:51
berndhssure, they disrespect the mass market, thinking (saying) those people are stupid, and they disrespect the rest, saying they are a minority00:51
ali1234it exists if you want it to exist00:51
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ali1234berndhs: no, that's what *i* do00:52
javispedroali1234: but I am a single man. The dumb-following companies have the money.00:52
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ali1234javispedro: like someone said, they don't have the money. you have the money, they have the products00:52
ali1234the other thing you can say is "well, you're being an idealist, and we won't get anywhere without compromise"00:53
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ali1234and to that i say, look where compromise has gotten us00:53
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javispedrowell, that is the "compromise" part. that you have to follow the dumb.00:54
ali1234javispedro: except that i can't even do that because meego is dead and no devices00:54
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javispedronot much worse than what would have happened without the compromise..00:55
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ali1234almost exactly the same in fact00:55
javispedrotouché.00:56
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javispedroso yeah, you could argue it has been a loss so far.00:56
ali1234well, except that we could have done something productive with our time instead of waste it on maemo and meego00:56
ali1234like for example, work on reverse engineering hardware that actually exists00:56
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javispedrothat is a race you can't completely win00:57
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ali1234sure i can00:58
javispedroI am quite sure that by now you still have not reverse engineered all the hardware on your desktop00:58
ali1234it worked just fine for the first 10-15 years of linux00:58
javispedroand no one has. and the desktop is already dying.00:58
javispedro(or so they say)00:58
ali1234whut?00:58
ali1234all the hardware in my desktop?00:58
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ali1234ok, so there's still nvidia driver00:59
ali1234apart from that there is nothing left to reverse engineer on this desk00:59
javispedroyou could argue that there's a point where you don't need to go00:59
javispedrobut there's a lot00:59
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ali1234i no longer buy PC hardware if it doesn't have a linux driver01:00
ali1234unless i think i can write one01:00
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javispedroby the time you can do that on a phone, they'll be talking about the next big thing, whatever that is01:02
ali1234so what? a phone is still a phone01:02
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ali1234they've already got to the point where the only thing they can think of to make the phones seem "new" is 3d screens and transfering files by rubbing your phone on someone else's01:02
ali1234both of which nobody at all cares about01:03
javispedrotbh I cannot really think of anything I really cared since a few years other than increased specs01:03
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javispedrostill they managed to consistently avoid to create a PC-like standard.01:03
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ali1234everything is about apps, social networks, and augmented reality now01:04
ali1234all of which are software01:04
ali1234and all of which are quite uninteresting to me, since i can't patch any of them01:04
ali1234see i have only one requirement for the software that i use:01:04
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ali1234if i find a bug, can i fix it myself without having to be blessed by the developer of that software?01:05
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ali1234nothing else in the free software manefesto interests me in the slightest01:05
javispedrothat's too bad01:07
javispedrocause even windows fits the bill.01:07
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ali1234yes, it does, for certain classes of bug01:07
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ali1234and i've fixed bugs in proprietary software by adding workarounds to the open source platform they runs on01:08
ali1234but most bugs in windows are not fixable01:08
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javispedroyou should add more of the items in the manifesto then ;)01:09
javispedro*from the manifesto01:09
ali1234no, i don't need them01:09
javispedrotechnically, most bugs in windows are fixable, with the right dissasembler01:09
javispedroactually, with the right editor.01:09
ali1234not in a reasonable amount of time01:09
javispedroaha, that's something to add to the manifesto ;)01:09
javispedroI'd at least leave the parts that talk about the source code01:10
ali1234note i said "can i fix it" not "can it be fixed"01:10
ali1234i don't care if some assembly genius can patch it01:10
ali1234if i can't fix it with only google for backup, i won't use it01:10
ali1234the amount of time i am willing to spend depends on what alternatives exist for that software, and how easy it is to fix those01:11
ali1234so for example, with flash, it was easier to create a sort of sandbox to make it run properly, than to fix the hundreds of problems in any of the free alternatives01:12
javispedrodunno, thought you were taking the elitist part to the extreme and were an assembly guru :P01:13
ali1234no, that's the reducto-absurdum argument that people usually use against this part of my rant01:13
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ali1234although sometimes i will pull out the disassembler... not for x86 code though, it's just too nasty01:13
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ali1234now java is a whole different thing01:14
ali1234i love that java basically disassembles back into pristine source 99% of the time01:14
ali1234that's about the only thing i do like about it01:15
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npmif the desktop is dead, howcome i've been getting some sweet patches and updates to http://code.google.com/p/mudita24/ ... and are musicians supposed to mix their music on a handheld or tablet w/ crappy USB soundcards?01:30
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npm^^ re javispedro comment from scrollback01:31
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npmbut i guess we'll be writing stuff like that in HTML right?01:33
npmbecause ALSA has such a great javascript interface :-)01:33
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ali1234i know right01:36
ali1234the desktop is only dead as a mass market entertainment device for accessing youtube and facebook01:36
ali1234which is currently 90% of the market01:36
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ali1234but hey, i bet someone somewhere is still selling typewriters too01:37
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thiagodevelopers and gamers01:37
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thiagoprofessional applications as well01:38
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thiagodo you expect autocad or maya on a tablet?01:38
ali1234exactly01:38
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ali1234these are the types of applications i want to use and develop01:38
ali1234don't forget scientific computing/bioinformatics etc01:39
berndhshow dead is the desktop market ? a few hundred million units per year ?01:39
ali1234are you gonna run DNA sequencing algorithms on a tablet, coded in javascript? no...01:40
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Arno[Slack]just kept up with all the announcement and mailing list and whoa... Letting down meego wasn't enought they absolutly add to choose this slower and crappier framework GTK... That's what they want to use as an alternative to the so promising (in the not-so-near futur) html5...02:50
Arno[Slack]suddenly java does not look so bad...02:51
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Ken-YoungArno[Slack], Yes, it's very, very demoralizing.02:53
Arno[Slack]agreed02:53
Arno[Slack]html5 was already a hard punch (I mean come on, despite fart apps and rss readers what will we see in the appup ?)02:54
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Arno[Slack]but adding this so called "ndk" in GTK... Whoa... Better go back to Android02:54
ali1234they are going back to gtk? LOL02:56
Arno[Slack]that's what I heard with this seedkit thing02:56
Ken-YoungMaybe the network stack will be based on UUCP.02:57
Arno[Slack]gtk+webkit or how to try to recreate qml in a slower and uglier way02:57
ali1234that's actually not such a terrible idea02:57
ali1234UUCP i mean, not gtk02:57
Arno[Slack]my heart stopped for a while !02:58
ali1234imagine a a p2p network02:58
ali1234automatic sneakernet02:58
ali1234using location information02:58
ali1234i want to send a file to fred02:58
ali1234so i encrypt it with his public key02:58
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ali1234then the software looks who is in wireless range of me, and how often the walk past freds house02:59
ali1234if they walk past it every day, they geta copy of the file02:59
ali1234next time they walk past fred's house, fred gets the file02:59
ali1234maybe slow and unreliable, but also completely unblockable and free03:00
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M4rtinKwell, GTK is not that bad - provided you do all the GUI stuff yourself in a Cairo widget :)03:02
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M4rtinKother than this, I just don't get why there must be on single best toolkit any no others...03:04
M4rtinKwhy not have html5, GTK, Qt, EFL and Clutter available like any sane desktop distro...03:04
Arno[Slack]I hope so03:05
Arno[Slack]but I don't feel to confident on that03:05
ali1234like i keep saying... you don't have to buy into it03:05
M4rtinKsometimes I think SHR will win in the end :D03:05
Arno[Slack]Intel has proved its capacity to take all the bad decision over the past few years03:05
M4rtinKthey are going slowly, but still forward :)03:06
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M4rtinKand everything is happening in the open, not somewhere behind closed doors...03:06
Arno[Slack]and real open sources os have lived on mobile03:06
wmaroneM4rtinK: when they can get drivers for the GPU...03:06
M4rtinKwell, the funny thing is03:07
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Arno[Slack]Bada is ... well bada, meego dead, Android and Tizen are not open... too bad that was a nice try03:07
M4rtinKthat there is an open driver for the GPU on the good old Neo FreeRunner :)03:07
M4rtinKand for everything else03:08
wmaroneyes, but the freerunner is a joke now03:08
M4rtinKwell, yeah03:08
wmaronewell, before too03:08
Arno[Slack]lots of jokes have we ;-)03:08
M4rtinKbut still gets all the new libraries, kernels and Python versions :)03:08
M4rtinKthat does not mean it is usable but clearly demonstrates the benefits of open drivers :)03:09
wmaronewell, you don't have to convince US of that ;P03:09
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Arno[Slack]I wonder what this will do : http://nomovok.com/news/56/73/Nomovok-provides-Tizen-with-integrated-Qt03:12
npmis there some kind of special distress call we can give over to Canonical , who still at least embrace Qt?03:13
Arno[Slack]looks the work is already done (again I don't see any issue in packaging Qt on a Linux distro)03:13
SpeedEvilM4rtinK: Open drivers - which are unfortunately not helped by the fact the graphics hw is a pile of shite.03:15
Arno[Slack]well I'll go to bed still convince my Qt lib for Google+ will be useful to some... I hope :-)03:16
M4rtinKSpeedEvil: yep, that was one of the less smart decisions done by the hardware developers03:16
berndhsoh very likely it will03:17
npmArno[Slack]: where is the project? might be useful to me03:17
SpeedEvilM4rtinK: Though it illuminates the hardware problems faced by open hardware.03:17
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Arno[Slack]still very early stage, not worth releasing yet03:17
SpeedEvilM4rtinK: That appeared to be the best solution at the time.03:17
Arno[Slack]I can give you the github url, but I still have lots of work to do03:17
M4rtinKSpeedEvil: might have been the only available GPU with open drivers03:17
SpeedEvilM4rtinK: The docs were closed, and by the time the limittions were realise, there wasn't enough cash to back out.03:17
M4rtinKort something like that03:18
M4rtinKoh03:18
SpeedEvilM4rtinK: It would actually have been faster generally not to have a GPU, and to use the bare framebuffer on the chip03:18
M4rtinKdamn :)03:18
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M4rtinKso its even slowing it down ?03:19
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npmis it true that google's http://www.atoker.com/blog/2008/09/06/skia-graphics-library-in-chrome-first-impressions/ doesn't do acceleration?03:20
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SpeedEvilM4rtinK: Not in all instances - some operations are faster.03:21
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M4rtinKanyway, even with the best uboot and KMS-kernel combination the performance is still pretty bad - the Qt Moko distro seems to be quite fast and usable on the Neo03:21
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SpeedEvilM4rtinK: But it's - overall - especially with the extremely nasty driver - slower. For example - the bus to the chip is ~7Mbytes/s. And the CPU can do nothing else while transferring.03:23
SpeedEvilAs context - this is about the same speed as a 16 bit ISA card.03:23
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DocScrutinizerwell, the mmc interface was the main reason we got that glamo crap03:23
M4rtinKwere some other GPUs considered ?03:24
DocScrutinizerI dunno, been before my time, but afaik it was mainly a one-man decision, and I guess there were pretty few alternatives03:25
DocScrutinizerit's not like GPU chips for embedded are available at abundance03:26
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DocScrutinizerin a similar situation we considered to get the needed 2nd mmc if via a mux, but then there were voltage level problems, so this wasn't a feasible alternative03:27
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M4rtinKinteresting info, thanks ! :)03:35
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zeroproximity1did anyone put meego on hp touchpad?05:32
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zeroproximity1what the best tablet to get if you want to install native meego on it05:41
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iekkumorning06:20
zeroproximity1did anyone put meego on hp touchpad?06:24
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slonopotamussoooo... meego is dead too? :) new brand is tizen?08:16
rasterso the press seems to say08:17
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slonopotamushehe08:19
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exmanI've seen that Qt'll be continue to use in MeeGo netbook UX. I wonder that only handset/tablet UX'll be changed to Tizen or All UX'll be changed to Tizen08:21
Alison_ChaikenTizen has little to do with MeeGo.    It's LiMo with a new name.    I can't think of why MeeGo people would be interested at all unless they work for Intel.08:22
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rasterindeed08:23
rastertizen != meego08:23
Alison_ChaikenIs Tizen even going to take any of MeeGo's existing code?   Intel and Linux Foundation are joining LiMo, and Samsung is giving it a new name is all.08:23
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rasterthe only relationship to meego is that intel is involved in both meego and tizen (or was involved in meego)08:23
Alison_ChaikenUnless another company takes MeeGo, its future is as a community-supported embedded distro, comparable to Angstrom.08:23
Alison_ChaikenRaster, concur.08:24
rasterand imad has directed people look at tizen for future activity08:24
rasteral indeed08:24
rasterAlison_Chaiken: indeed08:24
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slonopotamusi didn't go with meego, i neither go with tizen. too much politics and useless frictions (like fighting with Qt repackaging), too little action/development.08:24
rasterso tizen is a NEW distribution/OS08:25
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rasterslonopotamus: so why are u here? other than to gloat?08:25
raster:)08:25
slonopotamusraster: as a spectator08:25
exmanDo you think that intel 'll continue to develop the MeeGo ?08:25
raster(and dont tell me that there arent any politics in othert distros - they are all full of them)08:26
rasterexman: i have no idea08:26
rasterask intel08:26
slonopotamusraster: there are some useful bits after all08:26
rasterslonopotamus: so.. you are making a complete judgjment on tizen without ever having seen its code, the os, it runing or knowing whatts inside or even who is involved (in detail) ?08:27
raster:)08:27
exmanraster, Look stopped all meego development from intel side. Because, last night build image of MeeGo was at august.08:27
slonopotamusi don't understand when people decided that mixing software development with disto maintainance is a good thing08:27
rastersounds to me like you are not just judging a book by its cover, but judging it by the rumor mill that is commenting on a slashdot article that is commenting on a bunch of comments made by observers who have read a press release :)08:28
slonopotamuslet's create a distro around Samba, uh?08:28
rasterslonopotamus: whats what ubuntu is08:28
rastertyhats what debian is08:28
rasterthats what all distros are08:28
rasterthey make a distro AROUND some political point08:28
slonopotamusor BluezLinux, how do you like that?08:28
rasterif you have ever had to build a phone before.. you'll know that you have to do quite a lot of work08:29
rasterits MUCH more than "samba"08:29
rasterits like building a distro around kde + samba + apache + mysql + 10 other VERY specific things08:29
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rasteri've been doing this for years... your view is definitely based on a very false premise08:30
slonopotamusthere are over 9000 distros already, nobody needs a new one, it's the other way round, there are too many distros already. what's valuable is software.08:30
rasterthen... whats wrong with doing a distro built AROUND software?08:31
rastera distro is basicallly integration AND choice ofg components08:31
rasterto make a PRODUCt u have to do both of these08:31
rasterthey are necessary MUSTST08:31
rasterMUSTS08:31
slonopotamusmaking distro around software leads to situations when that software cannot work anywhere except that distro.08:31
rasterto make a phone - for example, you ALSO have to WRITe a large blob of software as it doesnt exist in the rest of the existing linux ecosystem08:31
rastertelephony stack, telephony centric apps, a whole ui based around fingers and small screens08:32
rasterand it has to also perform well on the more minimal arm hardware you have08:32
rasterslonopotamus: and does that matter?08:32
rasterif you wish it to work elsewhere.. port it.08:33
rasteryou can.08:33
slonopotamusraster: so make a repo in launchpad and add it to your ubuntu /etc/apt/sources.list.08:33
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rasterif the people paid to write the software focus on the platform that they actually ship as a product and that makes them money.. why shouldnt they focus on that?08:33
slonopotamusraster: the difference is where most of effort is put. either in development or in distro maintainance08:33
rasteryou assume that canonical has the same goals as those making the phones08:33
rasterand that its easy to work with them08:34
rasterand not have to make sacrifices08:34
Stskeepsah, i see raster no longer has to put up a disclaimer ;)08:34
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rasterheheheh08:34
slonopotamusmeh08:34
rasterStskeeps:  no - just generic talk08:34
Stskeepsyeah, yeah, i was really enjoying  the  silence ;)08:34
rasterslonopotamus: u have no idea how little it matters08:34
raster:)08:34
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rasterStskeeps:  hahahaa08:35
rasterStskeeps:  get used to it around here :/08:35
slonopotamuslibreoffice guys manage to develop an office suite without creating a distro too for some mysterious reason08:35
slonopotamusoh, and worse, Linux kernel doesn't have it's own distro too08:35
raster1. they arent a hardware manufacturer whose job it is to make money SELLINg devices08:35
slonopotamusso what's so special in telephony stack?08:35
raster2. they are not even a company that is making money from selling libreoffice as a product on its own08:36
rasterslonopotamus: 1. telephony hardware, 2. power management, 3. performance, 4. fingers and touchscreens08:36
* dm8tbr waits for the microsoft announcement that WP7.x will be tizen-compliant. - after all it's just html508:36
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raster5. footprint08:36
w00tdm8tbr: they're more likely laughing hard08:37
slonopotamusdm8tbr: :)08:37
dm8tbrw00t: sure, then they will embrace, extend and extinguish08:37
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MyrttiI cant help but think one thing08:37
slonopotamusraster: w/e, i'll continue spectating around :) and picking out valuable bits08:37
* dm8tbr fails to understand why 'mobile phones should have html5' needs a whole organization outside the w3c08:38
MyrttiI am glad lcuk isnt here to see all the bickering and the death of hope08:38
dm8tbrbut the whole titzen thing is way too vague at the moment.08:39
* dm8tbr certainly won't go near it before they put some substance behind their empty press release08:39
dm8tbrand the purported 'invite-only-open-source' scheme sounds an awful lot like Android to me. revealism par excellence.08:40
Alison_ChaikenCheck this out: http://limofoundation.org/en/Press-Releases/limo-foundation-and-linux-foundation-announce-new-open-source-software-platform.html08:40
Alison_ChaikenHuh, when Linux and LiMo Foundations discuss Tizen, THEY DON'T MENTION MEEGO EVEN ONCE.08:40
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dm8tbrsure, meego is considered 'toxic'. that's pretty obvious08:41
dm8tbrand besides that it's just lot's of hot air08:42
w00tthe brand has kind of repeatedly been dragged through the mud08:42
rasterdm8tbr: all open source works that way08:42
w00tand kicked many, many times08:42
Alison_ChaikenOnly Intel is pretending that LiMo is Qt-based.   It's not.   "Tizen" is lipstick on the LiMo pig to provide cover to Intel and LF, although LF is hardly embarassed.08:42
dm8tbrraster: I reserve to disagree08:42
rasteryou don't generally become part of an open source project unless "allowed in"08:42
rasteryou can comment on mailing lists and forums08:42
rasteryou can send patches all you like08:42
rasterthe develoeprs have no obligation to listen to you or even respond08:43
rasteror take your patches08:43
dm8tbrraster: so every project is like AOSP? because that's what I said this looks like: AOSP08:43
rasternor give you any say over the project08:43
Alison_ChaikenMyrtti, was there ever a place to donate to lcuk's family?   I never saw it.08:43
dm8tbror s/AOSP/Android in general/08:44
MyrttiAlison_Chaiken: I believe talk.maemo.org thread has some info08:44
rasterdm8tbr: "Membership in most project teams (Release Engineering, QA, Program Management, etc.) is invite-only and will mainly be open to people at companies who are building products based on Tizen."08:45
raster(release engineering, qa, pm etc.) is the stuff that the developers do in open source08:45
rasteru dont get to just step in and join and have a say08:45
dm8tbrraster: the MeeGo project already had huge problems accepting the fact that there are interested people in the community that want to experiment with MeeGo and their devices.08:45
rasterwithout some level of approval08:45
dm8tbrraster: with those statements I read 'closed' 'closed' 'closed' and 'don't even bother doing something without being a club member'08:46
rasterreality is that in every project you simply have to minimize the noise08:46
iekkusounds like i can't participate to tizen08:46
iekkuraster, where's that quote from?08:46
rasterhttps://www.tizen.org/community08:47
rasteractually wait08:47
rasterrelease engineering, q and pm. sorry - my bad thats what DISTROS do08:47
rasterubuntu, redhat08:47
iekku:/08:47
rasterdm8tbr: the next time that you can just be part of redhatr's QA or program mamagemtn (ie you can influence and determine timelines for rhel releaseS) let me know08:47
rastersame for debian08:48
rasteror canonical08:48
rasteror...08:48
dm8tbrraster: we had a presentation by a redhat guy yesterday at openmind. I'd recommend to watch it. I quote him from memory 'This would simply NEVER work without the community, we would not exist'08:48
rasterits the same08:48
rasteryou dont have to lecture me about redhat08:48
Myrttiguys...08:49
rasteri worked there08:49
rasteri know how redhat works08:49
Myrttigo get a mug of tea08:49
iekkuMyrtti, morning08:49
dm8tbrraster: this is 'closed in general' - I don't argue that timelines need to be decided etc. but if communities are excluded by design, that's bad.08:49
rastertrust me that this is how distros work08:49
Myrttiiekku: moin08:49
rasterwhen it coems to distro releases - which is the invite only stuff there, community doesnt have a say08:50
* dm8tbr shrugs and gets onto his paid work08:50
rasterthey have a say after release that goes into the NEXT release08:50
rasterthats standard customer feedback08:51
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rasteras listed there middleware development (which is vague) is open on a merit basis08:51
rasterthats all open source projects i know of08:52
rasteryou dont get commit access to the src without going thru some approval08:52
rasterand thats normally based on some form of merit08:52
raster:)08:52
Myrttiskilled hobbyists still have a chance tho08:53
rasteryes08:53
raster"merit"08:54
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Myrtti"will mainly be open to people at companies who are building products based on Tizen"08:55
Stskeepsheh, improvement ;)08:55
Myrttimainly be open is quite vague08:56
rasterMyrtti:  read that paragraph more carefully08:56
rasterMyrtti:  it makes 2 statements of 2 different ares of participation08:57
Myrttiyou dont think its vague? ok08:57
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amijayHello09:01
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rasterMyrtti:  yes it is09:06
rasterMyrtti:  as dawn said - details are being released over time09:06
rasteru get vague things for now09:06
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DawnFosterexactly :)09:07
iekkuhi DawnFoster09:07
DawnFosterhey everyone :)09:08
DawnFosterjust checking in before I go to bed :)09:08
w00tDawnFoster: not switching the lights off just yet? ;)09:08
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DawnFosterdefinitely not09:09
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DawnFosterwe want to spend time with people who've been working on meego to help transition over09:09
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iekkuDawnFoster, that's good09:11
Stskeepsbbl work09:11
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kontiohow can I delete my Meego account? whom do I need to ping? seems I can't do it in web interface my self...10:42
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dm8tbrkontio: prolly need to file a bug 'please delete my account'10:44
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mardykontio: moving to tizen? ;-)10:48
kontiomardy, not really :-) but I guess I don't need that anymore... will you come tonight?10:49
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mardykontio: yep10:50
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kontiomardy, cool cu you then...10:52
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RST38hMeanwhile: RIM has started to slash prices for its little-loved PlayBook in the US amid channel talk on this side of the pond that the fondleslabs are shifting more slowly than expected and inventory levels are out of control.11:32
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gabriel9http://mynokiablog.com/2011/09/29/linux-lives-at-nokia-project-meltemi-to-power-future-nokia-feature-phones-meego-lite/11:43
gabriel9what is meltemi?11:44
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Wirtanokias next linux based for low end phones11:46
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gabriel9now i am lost :/11:48
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gabriel9what to learn11:48
gabriel9what to buy11:48
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Myrttihas there been a press release on meltemi? if there has, it has gone below my radar11:49
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WirtaI would imagine meltemi is for indian margkets and such11:49
PaimenMyrtti: just leak that Nokia started to develop new os called meltemi11:49
Myrttiright ... nowadays Im so sceptic about Nokia leaks I dont really care11:50
thiagowtf11:51
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thiagobtw, if you want access to the original article, follow the link from google news11:54
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gabriel9i did not want to advertise or promete this website, i just read news on it and past it11:58
gabriel9promote *11:58
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RST38hYoohoo, they publicly announced Meltemi12:13
Stskeepsurl?12:13
RST38hStskeeps: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203405504576599011587667984.html?=MNB12:13
AardRST38h: I wouldn't have high hopes in that, if I were you12:13
Stskeepsisnt that just a rumour?12:14
RST38hAard: I have no hopes whatsoever12:14
RST38hStskeeps: More of a controlled leak, if you ask me12:14
RST38hStskeeps: Probably caused by a tinge of butthurt after the Tizen announcement =)12:15
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harbaumNokia is like my son when trying to decide what to eat for dinner. No decision lasts longer than 12 seconds and once some slice of bread is close to being prepared he always changes his mind ...12:26
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harbaumBut the namin meltimi is consitant with all other operating systems abandoned by nokia12:28
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pabs3whats this meltimi thing?12:41
harbaumseems to be something like "maemo light" for cheap nokia phones. But also sounds like something okia will abandon once it's in danger of becoming stable and mature12:42
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chouchouneEldar Murtazin states on Twitter that Meltimi is mainly intended to not fire all MeeGo people in one time at Nokia12:52
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pabs3chouchoune: wut?12:53
Stskeepschouchoune: wow12:53
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chouchouneeldarmurtazin Eldar Murtazin12:53
chouchouneMeltemi were created not for market needs but as a project to temporarily save MeeGo developers inside Nokia. They couldn't fire everyone :)12:53
chouchouneeldarmurtazin Eldar Murtazin12:54
chouchouneNokia Meltemi project that's the Elop way not to cut off all Maemo/Meego developers in one raw. Project will last around 1.5-2 years.12:54
SpeedEvilEldar's always good for a giggle.12:54
pabs3so its a way to waste devs time?12:54
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pabs3awesome12:54
toninikkanenhave to remember eldar is only right 50% of the time12:54
kyb3R:)12:54
chouchounepabs3: or to save jobs ;)12:54
toninikkanenin a company there is no "waste of devs time". If you work for a company, you give your time to the company and they give you money in return.12:54
kyb3RI might ask lottory numbers from eldar if the rate is 50%12:55
pabs3chouchoune: if I was working on it I would be spending work time on looking for another job ;)12:55
chouchouneI think, that non-strategic Nokia decisions could be the more successfull ones ;)12:55
toninikkanenkyb3R: calculate how likely you are going to win if  you ask eldar "is 1 a good number", "is 2 a good number", ... and base your lottery on that12:55
kyb3Rtoninikkanen: I listen only 50% of his advice :)12:56
chouchounejust reporting, but that's believable12:56
harbaumi have moved my efforts from meego/maemo to symbian and must admit that the seems to be the only/perfect way to bring qt projects to some useful end. What do you guys do with your unfinished projects?12:57
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RST38hWe finish them, no?12:57
chouchouneas in a company, you also need to keep a political way to avoid a social fight12:57
RST38h(and never start them for a platform that has no hardware shipping)12:57
harbaumWithout hoping to ever address some audience?12:57
khertanMorning12:57
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chouchouneanyway, see you later, going to eat ;)12:58
pabs3harbaum: finish them and stick them in Fedora/Gentoo/Debian?12:58
khertanchouchoune: you should explain that to my boss12:58
RST38hharbaum: All of my stuff is portable, and it works equally well on maemo, symbian, harmattan and android12:58
khertanRST38h: how did you do ? no ui ?12:58
harbaumthe problem with finishing them for a desktop os is that only few apps addressing mobiles makes sense on a desktop12:58
RST38hharbaum: Meego has never entered the picture due to the fact that there was never any meego hardware shipping12:58
harbaumYeah, but there was a roadmapo and people worked with the roadmap in mind12:59
RST38hkhertan: My own old skool UI for absolute necessities, overall platform dependent ui on top12:59
pabs3harbaum: I think those are general OSen rather than desktop OSen. all of them have ARM ports and a few are looking at adding mobile UIs like KDE Plasma Active or E17 Illume12:59
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mcfriskHello, where to get lzop for MeeGo?15:11
Stskeepsisn't it in trunk?15:11
mcfriskmaybe our snapshot is just missing it, will check15:12
Kaadlajkmcfrisk: devel:quality has it15:12
KaadlajkI tried to push it to Trunk once15:12
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Kaadlajkbut there was rollback or something and it got lost :P15:12
mcfriskyes, so lzo libs are there but not lzop to compress a kernel15:13
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CosmoHillvgrade: how's the weather were you are?16:43
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mcfriskQ: reverting a change in OBS, how to do it from osc? Our OBS 2.1.11 fails to revert from web interface, but maybe on osc it works.16:45
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mcfriskhmm, osc co -r gives a python trace, but osc up -r does work.16:49
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RST38hkudos to thp16:54
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araujow00t++17:29
ehlimhi all17:29
araujohi ehlim17:29
w00taraujo: :)17:30
w00tlet's see what happens17:30
ehlimwell actually I here cause of recent meego news ...17:30
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ehlimand I wish meego could continue stay alive17:31
w00tehlim: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2011-September/484156.html17:31
araujow00t, I keep wondering what will happen with all the work so far, in terms of code, packages, infra, docs .....17:32
w00taraujo: it will keep going in some form17:32
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w00tthis was merely saying "why do we need to go elsewhere to keep going" :)17:32
araujoI still wait for someone (probably from Intel or LF?) to raise up this issue, and drop the ball to the entire community then17:33
veskuharaujo: Stskeeps took backups of packages :) And the infra will probably stay up at least a year as intel promised to support meego untill fall 201217:34
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veskuhAs long as there are interested people, I'm sure that work will continue in some form17:35
w00tyup17:35
araujoveskuh, glad to know that ...... still, I think the community at least deserve an official announcement about these plans from someone or group of people ... it would help a lot17:35
w00taraujo: really, i don't think you'll ever get one17:35
veskuhFor the CE we will have steering group meeting next tuesday17:36
w00t(further than you have now, which is that they're shifting towards a html5/tizen future)17:36
veskuhin meego-meeting obviously17:36
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* araujo is liberal then and sends an email nominating w00t to be the Release Engineering Leader of MeeGo now17:37
araujoEveryone!, this is the time!, let's take over!17:38
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veskuh:-)17:38
ehlimhaha17:38
w00tthat's ... more or less the proposal, yeah17:38
ehlimcould meego be non-profit poject?17:39
w00twell, it already more or less is17:39
w00tit has no product as such17:39
w00tthe only thing that really needs to change is governance and giving some of the keys to the kingdom to people still willing to do work on it17:39
ehlimw00t: you mean meego was too restrictive before?17:41
w00tehlim: it certainly didn't do a very good job at communication17:41
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w00tthough I suspect tizen didn't help that17:41
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ehlimw00t: anyway, nokia n9 look like a nice phone though, sorry but I just heard the name meego just recently :)17:46
w00tehlim: it sure does17:46
* w00t has his on order17:47
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ehlimw00t: I am saving money to buy one :)17:48
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w00t:)17:48
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vgradeCosmoHill, not as good as it was in Spain17:56
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CosmoHillvgrade: it's hot here18:17
CosmoHillcooled down a little bit so I had a bike ride, 8.5 miles in 45 mins :)18:17
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OCEOCEhi19:06
OCEOCEwhere from could I download meego 1.2 for handset? cant find it at meegozone or any known to me places? could you help?19:07
chouchouneOCEOCE: for which device ?19:07
chouchounewiki.meego.com might help you19:08
OCEOCEwel I want to try instal it on ARM device which is MT623519:08
OCEOCEarm compatibile19:08
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OCEOCEI ve seen only 1.1 at meegozone and 1.2 has "disappeared"19:09
chouchounehttp://wiki.meego.com/ARM19:09
OCEOCEthx a lot - I ll let you know if succesfull ;)19:10
chouchouneas far as I know, you might need hardfp graphical drivers for your ARM platform to be able to run MeeGo 1.219:10
OCEOCEhmmm where from?19:10
chouchounemmmhhh, from the manufacturer ;)19:11
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OCEOCEoh so that should not be a problem, certainly they will help ;D19:12
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OCEOCEsimplicity of solution makes me happy ;)19:12
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chouchouneOCEOCE: who'is the manufacturer of your CPU ?19:13
OCEOCEMediatech is China, and as far as I know they wanted to support MeeGo so perhaps this could work19:14
OCEOCEMT6235 is described in wikipedia - sims "similar" to N9 system-on-chip chip specificatio even DSP included19:15
Venemoif you are a good enoug low-level developer and you are ready to make a hardware adaptation, you could start at http://meego.gitorious.com - otherwise forget it. oh and BTW, MeeGo is dead since yesterday.19:15
OCEOCEwell, this is not all - photos of Aawa I have found in net looks almost idenicly to harware I have - I suppose this is the same19:16
OCEOCEsmal moodificayion of buttons19:16
chouchouneAava ?19:16
SageOCEOCE: You should check the Community Edition which is build for n900, n950 and ia32 and is based on the MTF Handset UX from MeeGo.19:16
OCEOCEyess that one19:16
chouchounethat's Intel based19:16
chouchouneit's not ARM19:17
SageOCEOCE: the ia32 version works on the oaktrail and pinetrail Intel chips. We haven't tested the mrst that is in aava device.19:17
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chouchouneSage: he shouldn't have an Aava handset as it's an ARM processor19:18
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OCEOCEI ll sacrifice my phone on altair of experiment ;)19:18
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OCEOCEI want to try if this could be booted from memory card19:19
Sagechouchoune: ah, well I got mixed in the discussion.19:19
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OCEOCEyes from what I know this ARM compatibile chinese chip19:19
OCEOCEyes this is ARM compatibile - so to say copied I suppose19:20
OCEOCEso Aava was on intel chip?19:20
chouchouneyes19:20
Sage:nod:19:21
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Venemoyes, Aava was a prototype Intel x86 chip AFAICR19:22
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realnorthLoren Ipsum21:10
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w00ttesting something? ;)21:12
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realnorthyes, testing miRGGI in my N821:14
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pupnikmirggi is pretty nice21:17
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pupniki wish the list of links cached were longer21:18
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Venemo~seen zehjotkah21:48
infobotzehjotkah <~zehjotkah@84.22.107.1> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 6d 56s ago, saying: 'ah, yes, sorry: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Community_device_program/Nokia'.21:49
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pupnikthere's also a bug with scrollback of input text21:53
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npmfinally some straight answers from MeeGo IVI list: "There will be MeeGo v1.2 Release Updates in Q3/Q4’11 to meet customer release schedules and requirements but no new MeeGo releases are planned. Engineering support for MeeGo 1.1 and 1.2 Releases will continue through Fall 2012"21:58
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pupnikthere's a qt xkcd viewer22:15
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gabrbeddw00t: thanks for the tweet.22:16
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w00tgabrbedd: :)22:17
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lbt_awayAard: ping22:57
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Aardpong22:57
lbtThe important news from this week22:57
lbtI took photos in duty free :)22:57
Aard\o/22:57
phaeron:P22:58
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lbthehe22:59
lbtphaeron: for some reason I just remembered that I was doing Aard a favour in duty free :)22:59
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AardI thought I'm doing you a favour (i.e., going shopping with other peoples money) :p23:01
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mikeleibStskeeps: another few bugs for you23:02
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lbtyeah ... did you ever find they tasted a touch... watery?23:02
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Stskeepsmikeleib: send'em over, when can i start assigning tizen bugs to you? ;)23:02
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tripzerotizen... bugs... lols23:03
mikeleibtizen has no bugs ;)23:03
tripzeroit has unicorns!23:03
mikeleiband rainbows!23:03
tripzerodouble rainbows23:03
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Stskeepstripzero: i did actually ponder if unicorn would be a better name than tizen23:03
Stskeeps:P23:03
tripzerolol23:03
mikeleibthe rainbows actually shoot right out of the rear of the unicorns23:03
mikeleibit's weird23:04
tripzeroweird and possibly painful23:04
Aardlbt: got it uploaded somewhere?23:04
lbtbug 1 ... "Timer is ticking and shows 15months" ... "Critical"23:04
_MeeGoBot_Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1 maj, Medium, ---, vivian.zhang, VERI FIXED, [Tracker] tracker-miner-fs should be auto-started after system boot23:04
Stskeepsmikeleib: generally when i see the wrong assignees pop up in triages, we move them along :)23:04
lbtAard: working on it23:04
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* mikeleib resolves some bugs23:05
mikeleibsuch as bug 1023:05
_MeeGoBot_Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10 enh, Low, ---, michael.leibowitz, RESO WONTFIX, Package ECB  required23:05
ulf^LOL23:05
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Stskeepsbug 4223:06
lbtAard: http://www.flickr.com/photos/96141280@N00/sets/72157627782181472/23:06
_MeeGoBot_Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=42 nor, Medium, 1.1, robert, VERI FIXED, x11perf regression in MeeGo 0319 image23:06
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Aardthanks23:07
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* mikeleib resolves several bugs23:09
thiagowhat is ECB?23:09
lbtwe had news that infra will be supported for quite a while23:10
lbtI'll get some update from stefano and adam23:10
mikeleibemacs code browser, dood23:10
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ulf^lbt, no one's told me not to accept any submissions23:10
lbtmikeleib: some people :)23:10
lbtulf^:  cool ... but apparently we'll be getting workers in c.obs now23:11
lbtalthough...23:11
ulf^lbt, that I don't know about...23:11
lbtI wonder if we can open up the RE team in MeeGo and access to core obs?23:11
Aardlbt: who'll replace the intel release team? I've been waiting for a devel group now for about a month...23:11
lbtwe just got some automation sorted in cobs23:11
Stskeepsulf^: and thanks for accepting the submissions :)23:11
ulf^Stskeeps, no worries. You are welcome.23:11
* Stskeeps goes read the mail backlog23:12
* mikeleib sends more bz email to Stskeeps 23:12
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* Stskeeps ponders idly to change bugzilla id23:12
ulf^Stskeeps, how is Wayland coming along?23:12
mikeleibZarro Boogs found.23:13
* mikeleib wins the bugzilla war23:13
lbtStskeeps: well, please raise a bug to implement a bugs.pub.meego.com for CE23:13
Stskeepsulf^: well, i was waiting for a bug to be fixed in some parts of qt5 and well, that took a little more time than intended23:13
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Stskeepsulf^: now looking at what tizen is all about and well, the arm side of things, hopefully there's areas to work with23:16
ulf^Stskeeps, sure23:16
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OCEOCEI'd like to take under devs concideration this: MeeGo/Tizen suffer lack of dual sim card support. This is common in asians phones to have more then one phone number (sim card) active but at the same time. Could you pay atention to this?23:24
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OCEOCEIn next release23:25
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OCEOCEIn fact I'd propose to make possibilit multi sim card, so hardware would determin if 2 or 3 or more sim card could be connected.23:27
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wmaroneOCEOCE, hardware specifics like that are somewhat out of scope for the platform.23:28
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OCEOCEjust that is why I want to take it under consideration, this is mistake IMHO23:28
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ShadowJKDoes ofono's api prevent dualsim?23:29
Stskeepsdunno? i would doubt it23:30
ShadowJKOr to put it in another way: is there anything preventing someone from making a dualsim meego/tizen device?23:30
OCEOCEIn mobile this is extremly convinient to have possibility in the same unit 1phone for work (1 numbr and sim) 2nd phone for pivate use (2 number and simm) and 3rd for alerts from server via sms :) Conisder this please.23:31
OCEOCESeems current MeeGo do not allow this/such dualism23:32
SpeedEvilOCEOCE: why do you think it doesn't?23:33
SpeedEvilOCEOCE: I admit, there are no dualsim meego mobiles.23:33
OCEOCEOn the other hand IVI can have 1 sim card for regular phone and 2 sim for thieth monitoring/alarm23:33
SpeedEvilBut that's because there are no meego mobiles at all.23:33
DocScrutinizerthat's not a hw related thing, you could have multiple lines even with one physical SIM - dialer has to know how to deal with it23:33
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SpeedEvilThere are some that simplyswitch active SIM23:34
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OCEOCEN9 exists I asked at nokia they siad MeeGo do not allow - in my limited knowleadge I have believed23:35
Stskeepsyes, but n9 isn't, well, meego.com23:35
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OCEOCEwell - just I d like to point the problem to you - taht relates to any mobile now and in future23:36
OCEOCEI suppose if MeeGo would allow this - such dual/triple mobile would appear23:37
Stskeepsright23:37
OCEOCETechnicly this is possible as many devices does dual or triple card active in the same time23:38
OCEOCEeg motorola triple sim23:38
DocScrutinizerit'd be rather interesting to see how ofono, dialer etc are reacting to phonet0 and phonet1 (or whatever the names of the NIC devices on meego) both up and working same time23:38
OCEOCEAs a user I have collected how dual sim phone behaves, I can send it - if that coud help23:40
OCEOCEFirst is that all card are active the same time - seems it logs in one after another, they dont have to login at the same moment23:43
DocScrutinizerI'd think the maemo dialer (sorry for referring to that one here) would just offer 2 distinct GSM services in the top service selector23:43
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OCEOCEwhen diling after taking contanct or typing number, a  number of sim card to make onnection is to be choosen23:44
OCEOCEwhen phone is ringing, device shows card number, when picked up second card goes answering machine23:46
OCEOCERegister of calls incoming/outcoming shows icon displaying which sim card entry is related to, for all entries23:47
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SpeedEvilOCEOCE: N9 isn't meego.23:48
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SpeedEvilOCEOCE: Dual SIM support is probably a good idea though, but is likely to be a very low priority.23:48
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SpeedEvilSimply as there is - as far as I know - no open hardware that could run it.23:49
OCEOCEForgive me that name of device23:49
SpeedEvilMost of the dual-SIM phones are very low end.23:49
OCEOCEWrong IMHO, from user point of view this question of comfort during use - this is one of greates motivator for users23:49
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SpeedEvilUmm - right.23:50
SpeedEvilThis is quite irrelevant.23:50
OCEOCEI am aware this does not exist - so asking about23:50
SpeedEvilIf there is no hardware, making the software to support it does nothing.23:50
OCEOCEWell - question of advantage at the market23:50
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lbtOCEOCE: do you have a detailed spec of what features dual-SIM would provide ?23:51
OCEOCEAgain: if software can't support dual sim - who would decide to make 2 sim connectors?23:51
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OCEOCETo certain level (user ) yes23:51
lbtwhere?23:52
Stskeepswe don't really have any official handset ux and ofono and dual sim you'd have to ask the ofono guys about23:52
Stskeepsas it's a modem level issue23:52
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SpeedEvilModem level, and UX level23:52
OCEOCElbt: I simply wrote it myself23:52
* lbt can't really speak to the modem level23:52
SpeedEvilThe main point is that meego isn't generally a finished phone OS. It's a core, to which the maker has to add bits to get a functional polished phone.23:53
lbtOCEOCE: if it is sufficiently well structured then maybe you should produce a wiki page or something about the issue23:53
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: considering it from very beginning for the architecture is a good thing(TM) though23:53
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SpeedEvilIt should be considered as an architectural point.23:53
SpeedEvilBut coding for it wastes coders time.23:53
lbtand analysis (or even scanning) the UX requirements should identify any major architectural issues23:53
DocScrutinizersure23:54
SpeedEvilAt least in the near term23:54
lbtyeah - but there's coding for it ands hardcoding getSIM==scalar and not getSIMS==list23:54
Stskeeps"In fact, Asus expects Intel to release MeeGo v.1.3 any day now and "hopefully hardware accelerated Flash in the near future." In February, Intel announced that MeeGo v.1.3, a followup to v.1.2, would be released in October 2011."23:54
Stskeepserrmm.23:54
Stskeepsa very good question: is 1.3 realistic to make happen?23:55
lbtEWRONGWIN ?23:55
DocScrutinizerthough in my book there's not much problems on a phonet arch. You just need to load the isi stack twice, and point it to the proper interfaces, then create two rtcom accounts23:55
Stskeepslbt: no23:55
RST38hso, 1.3 is coming?23:55
StskeepsRST38h: we use it in CE and we're actually fairly happy with it23:55
Stskeepsa lot of fixes staged in Trunk:Testing23:55
OCEOCEI am using dual sim device - I can try to do this specification (in my limited competence) - please direct me: where it should occur?23:56
OCEOCEI doubt it will fullfill all dev's requirement but perhaps it can be completed with sb's else help23:57
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OCEOCEI think there are plenty of dual sim users, so I am not the only one23:58
OCEOCEwhich also proves this is needed in real23:59

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