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| Stskeeps | a | 01:26 |
|---|---|---|
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| CosmoHill | Stskeeps: b? | 01:28 |
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| chouchoune | do you know what's the latest build with a tabket UX available ? | 01:34 |
| chouchoune | (for ia32) | 01:36 |
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| saLOUt | qgil: Hi qgil, jalyst droped me a note that you are the man to organize some N9 devices for developers. Please have a look at my pet project. blog: http://disq.us/3jqlfo | 01:52 |
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| Termana | morning | 03:36 |
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| rektide | are there any testing/snapshot distros that people spin up & release publicly? | 04:04 |
| rektide | i had a meego 1.1 on this Asus clamshell, but the hard drive died. i'm wondering what options there are besides 1.2 to put on it. | 04:05 |
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| rektide | if i had a little more free time i'd break open the MIC and do it myself | 04:05 |
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| rektide | strike that, MIC should be easy enough to use from debian. will try to get around to DIY soon, i suppose. | 04:07 |
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| iekku | morning | 07:09 |
| pixelgeek | morning iekku | 07:10 |
| tkeisala | morning | 07:11 |
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| DawnFoster | You guys might be interested in this: https://meego.com/community/blogs/imad/2011/whats-next-meego | 07:33 |
| * Stskeeps looks | 07:34 | |
| Stskeeps | is it good or bad? :P | 07:34 |
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| DawnFoster | I think it's good | 07:36 |
| DawnFoster | I might be a teeny bit biased | 07:36 |
| Stskeeps | i'll look.. for some very ironic reason, the n950 doesn't want to open meego.com | 07:37 |
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| Stskeeps | right, void of a lot of detail, but at least i can somewhat sympthasise with the html5 perspective | 07:39 |
| tkeisala | interesting | 07:39 |
| Stskeeps | doesn't say anything about technologies in use | 07:40 |
| ali1234 | reading between the lines, it's meego without qt | 07:40 |
| ali1234 | but probably webkit | 07:40 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: it also leaves a lot of questions about what happens to what's in meego currently - i think that'd be reasonable to help iron out, if there's still care from intel side :) | 07:41 |
| * Stskeeps shall follow how the new project looks like, any contribution to open source projects is good anyway | 07:42 | |
| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: lots of that to sort out & the transition is critical | 07:42 |
| Stskeeps | yep | 07:42 |
| iekku | oh, what? | 07:42 |
| Stskeeps | iekku: https://meego.com/community/blogs/imad/2011/whats-next-meego | 07:42 |
| iekku | Stskeeps, i read it already :/ | 07:42 |
| ali1234 | well transitioning shouldn't be that hard, i mean we're all experts in it now, it's all we ever do :( | 07:42 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: no hard feelings, at least the meego brand has been dragged through a lot of mud but let's see if we can avoid screwing it up this time around :P | 07:43 |
| Stskeeps | .. that sounded wrong | 07:43 |
| * Stskeeps needs more coffee | 07:43 | |
| DawnFoster | seemed like a good idea to start fresh | 07:43 |
| DawnFoster | I totally get what you are saying | 07:44 |
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| Stskeeps | but i agree that things are really evolving to that the OS is 'just' a vehicle towards performance and ability of runtimes such as webkit/html5 apis | 07:45 |
| Stskeeps | and well, ability and performance are differentiators in this market | 07:45 |
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| Stskeeps | right, well, this should give ample opportunity for discussing in our meego session later today in tampere :) | 07:48 |
| ali1234 | sounds like hardware adaptations will be easier at least | 07:48 |
| Stskeeps | indeed | 07:48 |
| Stskeeps | one more detail to fit in: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/announcements/2011/09/limo-foundation-and-linux-foundation-announce-new-open-source-softw | 07:48 |
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| Stskeeps | that wasn't linked in the post | 07:48 |
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| ali1234 | WAC? | 07:49 |
| Termana | The question though is, will Tizen blend? | 07:49 |
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| ali1234 | http://www.tizer.co.uk/ | 07:51 |
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| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: also, +1 on not calling it dev@lists.tizen ;) | 07:51 |
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| Termana | ali1234, are you drinking the Tizer kool-aid? :p | 07:53 |
| pixelgeek | I keep thinking there should be a 'Ci' in front of it... | 07:53 |
| Stskeeps | i can only say that it won't fly nicely in germanic countries, as tizen sounds a hell lot like the act of peeing.. | 07:54 |
| pixelgeek | ali1234: Wholesale Application Community | 07:54 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: hahaha, brik and I were saying the same | 07:54 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, quite fitting then, I'd say. | 07:54 |
| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: you bet! | 07:54 |
| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: I *hate* lists called -dev that are used for everything | 07:55 |
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| ali1234 | well meego has too many lists | 07:55 |
| Termana | Tizen, everyone can see it, but only you can feel it's warmth. | 07:55 |
| Myrtti | damn it | 07:56 |
| Myrtti | I just accidentally messed one of my meego shirts with paint, and now you are telling me its going to have collection value? damn it. | 07:57 |
| * Stskeeps ponders if to go for the redshirt look today | 07:57 | |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: also some kind of information on impact on typically moblin-related projects such as ofono and connman would probably be useful to many | 07:59 |
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| Stskeeps | though those are projects in their own right | 08:00 |
| SpeedEvil | 'We will open the entire Tizen software stack, from the core OS up through the core applications and polished user interfaces.' | 08:00 |
| SpeedEvil | So - rather different maybe from 'meego is only a base' | 08:01 |
| Stskeeps | there is of course one important question unanswered.. | 08:02 |
| Stskeeps | Is it RPM or DEB? | 08:02 |
| * Stskeeps runs | 08:02 | |
| Myrtti | lol | 08:02 |
| Myrtti | +1 | 08:02 |
| frals | so intel going tizen so they dont have to use qt any more? | 08:02 |
| SpeedEvil | pkgtool - it's the only solution. | 08:02 |
| berndhs | what can i run on a tizen device though ? Software as a service ? | 08:02 |
| ali1234 | html5 craplets | 08:03 |
| pixelgeek | Stskeeps: RPM | 08:03 |
| Stskeeps | frals: why wouldn't you want to use qt with scenegraph and webkit2? :P | 08:03 |
| Stskeeps | i can understand it from app story pov | 08:04 |
| ali1234 | the entire point of all these OS is to enable app developers only | 08:04 |
| ali1234 | anything that allows you to make apps without paying rent to an app store is not required | 08:04 |
| frals | Stskeeps: well... it wouldnt be the only thing that they fucked up ;) | 08:04 |
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| ali1234 | "wholesale applications community" sounds an awful lot like shovelware to me | 08:06 |
| pixelgeek | :) They're trying to standardize the APIs that webapps use | 08:06 |
| araujo | pixelgeek, sure RPM? | 08:07 |
| pixelgeek | araujo: sure | 08:07 |
| berndhs | yeah forget small business wholesale is all you want :/ | 08:07 |
| Sage | Stskeeps: trying to start the war already ;) | 08:08 |
| araujo | pixelgeek, OBS+Spec still being used? :P | 08:08 |
| pixelgeek | That's the plan. | 08:08 |
| Stskeeps | intruiging | 08:08 |
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| Sage | is it said anywhere if tizen is openly developed OS or will it behind doors untill release is made? | 08:09 |
| pixelgeek | Of course, a lot of balls are still in motion, but that one seems fairly stable. | 08:09 |
| mihero | Sage: will be developed openly with familiar and improved infrastructure. | 08:10 |
| ali1234 | Sage: "a lot of things will be the same as they were in the MeeGo project." | 08:10 |
| mihero | from imads post | 08:10 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: how can that be a good thing.. | 08:11 |
| Stskeeps | ;P | 08:11 |
| ali1234 | also from imad's post | 08:11 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: that's my point | 08:11 |
| berndhs | So tsg meets twice a decade ? | 08:11 |
| Sage | ali1234: tablet ux development was done behind closed doors before publishing. So ... :) | 08:11 |
| w00t | berndhs: only if you're lucky | 08:11 |
| araujo | "We will post additional details about this project in the coming weeks, including the code, developer documentation, and more" | 08:11 |
| w00t | berndhs: and the second time they're due to meet, they'll tell you they decided to shut up shop and rebrand ;) | 08:11 |
| DawnFoster | Sage: the code will be open | 08:11 |
| araujo | Sage, I guess they will open as soon as possible .... | 08:11 |
| * raster wonders what kind of madness tizen is | 08:12 | |
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| mihero | same as were meego:) | 08:13 |
| Sage | DawnFoster: yes, well I was meaning how openly it is developed. Can community see each git commitfor example? | 08:13 |
| pixelgeek | ali1234: http://www.wacapps.net/ | 08:13 |
| ali1234 | "these apps are wac" | 08:14 |
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| pixelgeek | :) | 08:14 |
| Sage | I know lot to ask atm. and more info is promissed but I'm sitting at train and do not have much else to do atm. :) | 08:14 |
| ali1234 | pixelgeek: as a developer i want two things from any platform i am going to use and html5 offers me neither | 08:14 |
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| pixelgeek | ali1234: What are you looking for? | 08:15 |
| ali1234 | one is the ability to execute native machine code, the other is the availability of an api that makes my apps look like all the other apps | 08:15 |
| ali1234 | html5 sort of offers the latter in so much as all the apps look completely different | 08:16 |
| * Sage subscribed to tizen mailinglist | 08:16 | |
| * qgil too | 08:17 | |
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| pixelgeek | When you say 'execute native machine code' you mean OS API calls? or x86 assembly? | 08:18 |
| ali1234 | on an x86 machine i mean x86 assembly | 08:18 |
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| ali1234 | on arm i mean arm assembly | 08:18 |
| ali1234 | just give me a damn C compiler | 08:19 |
| ali1234 | and an API for it that lets me draw widgets that look like the rest of the OS | 08:19 |
| ali1234 | this is why i like qwidgets and hate qml | 08:19 |
| ali1234 | qwidgets gives me both these things, qml gives me neither | 08:19 |
| ali1234 | see the trouble is i can't afford to hire a UI designer to make draw a nice UI for me in photoshop and then convert it to html | 08:20 |
| ali1234 | i need off the shelf widgets that look decent | 08:21 |
| pixelgeek | ali1234: I understand. | 08:22 |
| ali1234 | but more often than that i need a fast framebuffer without a million layers of abstraction | 08:22 |
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| ali1234 | or the ability to use existing code libraries like bullet | 08:23 |
| ali1234 | i don't relish the idea of writing a physics engine from scratch in javascript, especially when there's already plenty of good ones written in C | 08:23 |
| ali1234 | i also do not like the whole idea of software as a service, where the user just gets a frontend app, and all the work is done by a server out of their control. i wouldn't wish to inflict such a thing on my users | 08:25 |
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| ali1234 | not even if it would make me rich | 08:25 |
| Stskeeps | yes, but we arent exactly joe average developer | 08:26 |
| Stskeeps | we're hackers | 08:26 |
| ali1234 | heh | 08:26 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 08:26 |
| ali1234 | it's sad when you can't even rely on developers to have a clue any more | 08:26 |
| beford | I don't get the new os thing | 08:26 |
| beford | >:( | 08:26 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: the question i am left with, is what does this stuff offer me, as a hacker? if the answer is nothing, what am i even doing here? | 08:28 |
| berndhs | We have mobile devices with unbelievable compute power and then dont run programs on them | 08:28 |
| berndhs | Thats just waste to the extreme | 08:28 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: not enough data to answer that well | 08:28 |
| ali1234 | well what about maemo and meego? | 08:29 |
| Milhouse | So with Tizen, is Qt being dumped? | 08:30 |
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| Sage | return of gtk? :) | 08:32 |
| * Sage runs | 08:32 | |
| ali1234 | they could use nux | 08:33 |
| ali1234 | or if they wanted to be really annoying, they could reimplement libnux | 08:34 |
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| GAN900 | Imad needs to learn what "begs the question" actually means. | 08:40 |
| GAN900 | In summary: Who the hell cares anymore? | 08:41 |
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| Milhouse | And what is Intels involvement with Tizen, taking a back seat? | 08:45 |
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| Milhouse | I'm not sure anyone will bother waiting for whatever Tizen bothers to create next year. :( | 08:47 |
| berndhs | How is this not Intel abandoning meego? | 08:47 |
| Milhouse | berndhs: I'm asking, is it? | 08:48 |
| Milhouse | oops, misread | 08:48 |
| Milhouse | berndhs: looks like it, doesn't it. | 08:48 |
| berndhs | Sure does | 08:48 |
| Jucato | sorry to butt in, just want to ask for clarification: Tizen is a separate project from MeeGo right? not MeeGo transforming to Tizen switching to HTML5? | 08:48 |
| frals | whos claiming intel isnt dumping meego? | 08:48 |
| Milhouse | Wish we'd never heard of Moblin now | 08:48 |
| Milhouse | Jucato: No, MeeGo is transforming into Tizen, dropping Qt along the way. | 08:49 |
| pixelgeek | Tizen is a seperate project | 08:49 |
| berndhs | frals: intel last week | 08:49 |
| Milhouse | pixelgeek: The way I read it, MeeGo is becoming Tizen | 08:49 |
| Jucato | Milhouse: eh? that wasn't really clear in the "announcement" | 08:49 |
| Jucato | (the Tizen page also mentions that it's being led by Intel and Samsung) | 08:50 |
| Milhouse | Jucato: "As they were in MeeGo" - past tense. | 08:50 |
| Milhouse | ^ From Imad's blog | 08:50 |
| frals | "This new project is first and foremost open source, and based on Linux. So it begs the question: why not just evolve MeeGo? We believe the future belongs to HTML5-based applications, outside of a relatively small percentage of apps, and we are firmly convinced that our investment needs to shift toward HTML5." | 08:50 |
| Jucato | it just means to me "will be like meego" | 08:50 |
| frals | i understand that as a "kthxbai meego" | 08:51 |
| Jucato | Milhouse: like using the same underlying stack minus Qt | 08:51 |
| Milhouse | Jucato: Should have been "As they are in MeeGo" in that case | 08:51 |
| Milhouse | Jucato: Seems so, 100% HTML5 instead of Qt and WRT. | 08:51 |
| Jucato | (iow, the "anti" Windows8 project from Intel) | 08:52 |
| Milhouse | Jucato: Qt seemed to be one of the defining features of MeeGo, seems like a major backward step to drop it | 08:52 |
| Milhouse | Sure HTML5 may be good for apps in a few years, but in the meantime a native framework like Qt wouldn't do any harm | 08:52 |
| Jucato | probably not the way Intel sees it after Nokia ... but I'm not here to fan flames :) | 08:52 |
| Milhouse | Isn't Qt under open governance now? If Nokia are a problem, fork it... | 08:53 |
| Jucato | so in short, there is really no official word yet from the MeeGo side? | 08:53 |
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| berndhs | Im noy sure there is a meego sice left | 08:54 |
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| Milhouse | I'm almost at the point of past caring | 08:54 |
| Milhouse | Utter shambles | 08:54 |
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| Milhouse | It's even become embarassing trying to defend MeeGo these days, I'm not sure this is going to help | 08:55 |
| Jucato | feels like a slap in the face/kick in the nuts after our loss just a few weeks ago | 08:55 |
| Jucato | also considering 1.3 is supposed to be released soon ... | 08:56 |
| Alison_Chaiken | Problem with HTML5 as a basis for proceeding is that Ubuntu will take the same approach exactly. Tizen will have exactly the same strategy as every single other mobile Linux. | 08:57 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | Qt was a differentiator but HTML5 can't be. | 08:57 |
| Alison_Chaiken | Tizen is just going to be what Samsung calls mobile Linux. | 08:57 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | Imadolypse! | 08:58 |
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| Jucato | Ubuntu? | 08:58 |
| Jucato | (how did that factor in) | 08:58 |
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| * pabs3 wonders if he missed something | 09:01 | |
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| Jucato | just the end of the world come early | 09:01 |
| Jucato | (or late, depending on your math) | 09:01 |
| Milhouse | The media coverage of this news later today is going to make grim reading I fear | 09:01 |
| Jucato | with *lots* of loose ends | 09:02 |
| pabs3 | end of the world? there a meteor coming? | 09:02 |
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| pixelgeek | pabs3: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/announcements/2011/09/limo-foundation-and-linux-foundation-announce-new-open-source-softw | 09:02 |
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| pixelgeek | https://meego.com/community/blogs/imad/2011/whats-next-meego | 09:03 |
| berndhs | well the world does end next year anyway, so html5 wont make it any worse | 09:03 |
| Jucato | Milhouse: reading it again, "as they were in MeeGo", the statement comes from an Intel employee. so Intel practcally considers MeeGo over. how about the rest of the MeeGo "leaders" and contributors? | 09:03 |
| Stskeeps | i | 09:03 |
| Jucato | berndhs: rapture is moved to october last I heard | 09:04 |
| pabs3 | so first Maemo gets killed, now MeeGo, huh | 09:04 |
| slonopotamus | pixelgeek: booooring | 09:04 |
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| * pabs3 waves to pixelgeek, thx | 09:04 | |
| Jucato | remember how Intel was saying a few weeks ago that they were still committed to meego? or something? hm ... | 09:04 |
| Milhouse | Jucato: Maybe it will soldier on, but without industry support it's future won't be bright | 09:04 |
| pabs3 | Jucato: I hope no-one believed them | 09:05 |
| Jucato | Milhouse: I don't think the industry's future will be bright either at this point. | 09:05 |
| jrayhawk | Stskeeps: was that you having an aneurysm? | 09:05 |
| Jucato | I wonder how they can be taken seriously anymore ... | 09:05 |
| Milhouse | And without handset support, the future of MeeGo under Intel was grim. I guess this is the price of getting Samsung on board. | 09:05 |
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| pixelgeek | Well, I gave a presentation about MeeGo at IDF the other week, | 09:05 |
| * mece looks att article, sees HTML5 plastered all over it, facepalms. | 09:05 | |
| chouchoune | Milhouse: without Qt, how to develop apps for fun ? ;) | 09:05 |
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| pixelgeek | and I'm helping get support for Cedar Trail netbooks out the door... | 09:06 |
| Milhouse | I think the demise of Qt in Tizen - if this is the case - is a major fail | 09:06 |
| Milhouse | Qt was the best thing about MeeGo... | 09:06 |
| * Jucato wonders what Stskeeps wanted to say | 09:06 | |
| * mece agrees with Milhouse | 09:06 | |
| chouchoune | please Intel, at least, we should be ABLE to use Qt even if the foocus is on HTML5 !!! | 09:06 |
| * pabs3 wonders if this is where WebOS went | 09:06 | |
| Jucato | this is where Win8 is going :) | 09:07 |
| chouchoune | pabs3: yes, completely | 09:07 |
| beford | but at least there are more webos devices than meego | 09:07 |
| Stskeeps | Jucato: nothing interesting | 09:07 |
| Jucato | only because they were on sale :) | 09:07 |
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| berndhs | I dont want to run all programs in th browser, the least secure framework there is | 09:07 |
| Jucato | Stskeeps: ah thought so. you doing ok there? :/ | 09:08 |
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| Stskeeps | Jucato: sure, i dont see this as a bad thing as such, but a lot of unknowns | 09:08 |
| chouchoune | berndhs: that's not the issue for me, recent browsers handle security quite well | 09:08 |
| Stskeeps | Jucato: if its rpm and obs at least two of my skillsets are covered ;) | 09:09 |
| chouchoune | the problem is that HTML5 will never compete with native apps on many things | 09:09 |
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| pabs3 | chouchoune: if you had looked at the list of browser CVEs recently you probably wouldn't say that about browser security | 09:09 |
| Jucato | Stskeeps: haha! but once again you'd have to learn a new way of making apps. from GTK/Hildon to Qt to HTML5 | 09:09 |
| Stskeeps | Jucato: not an app maker | 09:09 |
| Jucato | true :) | 09:10 |
| berndhs | chouchoune: no the apps dont even run on my system then | 09:10 |
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| Stskeeps | Jucato: and frankly, i was prepping a qml-html5-js centered core myself, derived from meego | 09:10 |
| Jucato | ah well. I guess we'll have to wait for the details. but I'm seriously getting tired of corporations pulling out the rug from under the community without any warning | 09:10 |
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| Stskeeps | yes | 09:11 |
| raster | Jucato: you can happily keep developing meego on your own. you have the src. :) | 09:11 |
| Termana | raster, LOL. | 09:11 |
| raster | you can go design and build your own hardware too | 09:11 |
| raster | :) | 09:11 |
| Jucato | the usual reply :) | 09:12 |
| Stskeeps | raster: so you involved with tizen too? | 09:12 |
| raster | it won't cost you more than a few hundred thousand... | 09:12 |
| eman | Who comes up with these names? seriously? Tizen? | 09:12 |
| raster | :) | 09:12 |
| Stskeeps | eman: i keep wondering same.. | 09:12 |
| kyb3R | :) | 09:12 |
| Termana | Whoever it is won't admit to it | 09:12 |
| Termana | Too shameful | 09:12 |
| Jucato | raster: sure. please DCC me your skills and knowledge. I'd need those too ;) | 09:13 |
| eman | greetings raster | 09:13 |
| Jucato | (but they might not be open source ...) | 09:13 |
| raster | Stskeeps: "hi. i'm raster. i seem to be the BDFL of e. i work at samsung electronics in the mobile r&d division where we work on and use EFL for making applications and mobile OS'S. no i don't work on android, bada, or wp7". | 09:13 |
| Jucato | or under NDA :P | 09:13 |
| raster | </endofficialstatement> | 09:13 |
| Milhouse | Maybe dumping Qt is Intels way of getting back at Nokia... | 09:13 |
| beford | well I like Enlightenment | 09:14 |
| Jucato | you think? :) | 09:14 |
| raster | eman: yo man! | 09:14 |
| Stskeeps | raster: ah, corporate raster is so boring :P | 09:14 |
| mece | The name Ti Zen is kinda funny considering Intel one major partner | 09:14 |
| raster | :) | 09:14 |
| raster | Stskeeps: hehehe | 09:14 |
| pabs3 | who are these WAC people? | 09:14 |
| raster | Stskeeps: put your thinking cap on and join the dots. | 09:14 |
| raster | :) | 09:14 |
| Jucato | Stskeeps: I wonder what corporate Stskeeps would have been like :) | 09:14 |
| Jucato | or fill in the blanks | 09:14 |
| raster | beford: i like it too. funny that :) | 09:14 |
| Stskeeps | raster: don't worry, just playing stupid | 09:14 |
| raster | (but i'm biased) | 09:15 |
| raster | Stskeeps: heheheh | 09:15 |
| Jucato | Tizenlightenment ... | 09:15 |
| beford | Too bad E17 never got into 'stable' or whatever they call it these days, but I enjoyed using it for a while :) | 09:15 |
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| raster | beford: debian? | 09:16 |
| Stskeeps | raster: only thing i didnt get right was the name and to some extent deb vs rpm | 09:16 |
| Jucato | (E17 was actually stable for me years ago when I tried it out) | 09:16 |
| Stskeeps | raster: not that it matters | 09:16 |
| Jucato | (fast and nice effects too, when Compiz was just at its infancy) | 09:16 |
| raster | Stskeeps: beats me what tizen is. first i heard of it was maybe an hr or so ago | 09:17 |
| Stskeeps | raster: god knows.. what i care about is quality oss components you can put together | 09:17 |
| raster | Jucato: e17 still works and has polished up.. has a compositor now too - compositor works on opengl, opengl-es2 (phones/tablets etc.) and even full software fallback that is pefrectly usable eve on a 600mhz penitum-m | 09:17 |
| raster | Jucato: we have a shortish todo list for release: | 09:18 |
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| Jucato | raster: yeah. just saying it was pretty stable and nice and fast already back then (circa 2007) when I tried it out | 09:18 |
| raster | http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release | 09:18 |
| Stskeeps | html5 creates the app story so we dont have to fight over gtk vs qt, etc | 09:18 |
| eman | The HTML5 for apps is a bit of a worry. It's hard enough to get QML apps performing smoothly | 09:18 |
| Jucato | so the not having a "stable" release really doesn't mean anything to me | 09:18 |
| mece | eman, no kidding. | 09:18 |
| raster | tho we seem to have 98% of our time sucked away into EFL (the libs underneath e17) to make them fully baked for use in a large range of generic applications | 09:18 |
| raster | toushcreeny fingery stuff | 09:19 |
| raster | etc. | 09:19 |
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| * pabs3 goes to see what is up in #tizen | 09:19 | |
| beford | lol | 09:19 |
| Jucato | ah some media are picking it up already, "Tizen will replace MeeGo" | 09:19 |
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| raster | eman: i have no problems with stuff being smooth with efl on little arm soc's | 09:21 |
| raster | :) | 09:21 |
| eman | I can imagine with your attention to performance :) | 09:21 |
| raster | nah | 09:21 |
| eman | I've just completed my first QML app for Harmattan, and it's pretty slow :( | 09:22 |
| raster | i just write msyelf some libraries with api's a total idiot can use | 09:22 |
| raster | and then i pretend i'm an idiot | 09:22 |
| eman | (though I've done dumb stuff and haven't optimised) | 09:22 |
| raster | and let the librayr pick up the pieces | 09:22 |
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| cedric | eman: at the level qml expose, you shouldn't have to do any optimisation | 09:22 |
| cedric | should have been done for you by the stack below | 09:22 |
| jrayhawk | http://meegonews.com/2011/09/18/did-meego-die-in-san-francisco/ "Whatever happens, the Meego core work will move forward but it seems that there's now a risk to the UI layer and Meego brand. They could be sacrificed for the right partner." | 09:22 |
| eman | cedric: Oh, I've just done some dumb stuff with dynamic list model creation/scanning | 09:23 |
| eman | in javascript | 09:23 |
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| eman | which is killing it | 09:23 |
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| raster | eman: when you end up passing entire widget creation and managementinto the js level and app level.. u invariably end up with inefficient apps | 09:27 |
| raster | thats why people generally tend to make list widgets for you | 09:28 |
| raster | so u just dumbly add items (label+icon and callback when selected) | 09:28 |
| raster | and they bother making it "efficient" | 09:28 |
| raster | :) | 09:28 |
| raster | if u start pushing down layers in the code stack - you invariably take on much more responsibility to get these thigns right yourself | 09:28 |
| raster | but in return you gain more power | 09:28 |
| Milhouse | So the question is... will Tizen run on my N9? :) | 09:28 |
| raster | to do what you EXACTLY want | 09:29 |
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| eman | raster: Aye. Usual tradeoff of developer time/performance. | 09:30 |
| wmarone | well, Intel drops more bombs on the community | 09:30 |
| raster | iphone | 09:30 |
| raster | ipad | 09:30 |
| raster | ipod | 09:30 |
| raster | ibomb | 09:30 |
| iekku | wmarone, ? | 09:30 |
| wmarone | http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/28/meego-to-be-folded-into-linux-based-tizen-os-slated-to-arrive-i/ | 09:30 |
| dm8tbr | wmarone: it's pretty clear, intel DOES NOT WANT a community | 09:31 |
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| wmarone | dm8tbr: this is obvious | 09:31 |
| dm8tbr | wmarone: go to meego.com for first hand info | 09:31 |
| cedric | raster: most of this bomb where not from intel actually :-) | 09:31 |
| iekku | still no news on mailing lists | 09:31 |
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| DawnFoster | we have a tizen mailing list | 09:33 |
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| wmarone | heh | 09:33 |
| raster | cedric: i just am saying inane things that came to mind when "intel ... bomb" were said | 09:33 |
| DawnFoster | https://www.tizen.org/community/mailing-lists | 09:33 |
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| iekku | DawnFoster, it really doesn't help... all of meego-people doesn't read irc | 09:34 |
| DawnFoster | I'll add more mailing lists over the next couple of weeks | 09:34 |
| iekku | DawnFoster, and they don't know about the mailing list unless told | 09:34 |
| iekku | should be nice to send mail to some of the meego-mailing lists also.... | 09:35 |
| kyb3R | yep | 09:35 |
| alterego | wth is tizen? | 09:35 |
| iekku | or do we need to ask information via mailing list | 09:35 |
| iekku | meego-mailing list | 09:35 |
| Stskeeps | alterego: mer with html5 focus ;) | 09:35 |
| alterego | Oh, cool | 09:36 |
| brik | tizen.. tissen | 09:36 |
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| pixelgeek | "Tie - Zen" | 09:36 |
| Stskeeps | alterego: dunno exactly, but let us see where this leads | 09:36 |
| Stskeeps | pixelgeek: doesnt help :P | 09:36 |
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| anaZ | Thai Zen | 09:37 |
| mece | Ti Zen | 09:37 |
| mece | I thought TI and Intel were rivals... | 09:37 |
| alterego | Oh god, what's going on | 09:37 |
| anaZ | Thai Chicken | 09:38 |
| Stskeeps | please provide a mp3 on how to pronounce the name | 09:38 |
| iekku | Stskeeps, :D | 09:38 |
| kyb3R | :) | 09:38 |
| raster | "hello. my name is tizen and i pronounce tizen as.. tizen" | 09:38 |
| kimitake | :) | 09:38 |
| dm8tbr | I pronounce that as 'f.....' | 09:38 |
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| anaZ | raster: hey dude | 09:39 |
| pixelgeek1 | Let's see if this pastes - Tizen (pronounced ˈtī- zən ) | 09:39 |
| yangmeat | What is Tizen? what it means? | 09:39 |
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| dm8tbr | it means 'we don't care about community and openness' in an ancient language | 09:40 |
| w00t | dm8tbr: this | 09:40 |
| beford | xDD | 09:40 |
| pixelgeek1 | No MP3 version yet - we'll see if we can't record Dawn saying it. | 09:40 |
| raster | anaZ: dude! | 09:40 |
| yangmeat | hahahah | 09:41 |
| Bostik | ci-tizen? | 09:42 |
| pixelgeek1 | 'night all | 09:42 |
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| iekku | dm8tbr, good mail | 09:43 |
| alterego | lame, lame, lame | 09:45 |
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| khertan | Morning | 09:49 |
| khertan | Someone please can confirm me that is a joke : https://meego.com/community/blogs/imad/2011/whats-next-meego ? | 09:49 |
| beford | its not :) | 09:50 |
| wmarone | nay | 09:50 |
| iekku | khertan, you need to sign in to tizen mailing list to get more information | 09:50 |
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| khertan | yeah ... but it ll let them think that some people are interested | 09:51 |
| alterego | Well, thanks intel ... | 09:52 |
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| khertan | ok ... now i ve to change what my company do | 09:54 |
| raster | it did qt? | 09:54 |
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| alterego | Well, I don't know if I'm going to bother with Tizen't MeeGo | 09:58 |
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| alterego | I'm certainly not working with Intel again | 09:58 |
| pabs3 | iekku: the archives seem to be empty, I guess the list contents is secret for now | 09:59 |
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| khertan | alterego: i think many intel guy didn't know about this move | 10:03 |
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| alterego | They knew | 10:04 |
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| alterego | DawnFoster knew obviously. | 10:04 |
| alterego | Anyway, it's not just this news. | 10:05 |
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| alterego | Imad's blog, dunnp, the tone I found kinda insulting. | 10:05 |
| hiemanshu | I am moving to android :P | 10:05 |
| hiemanshu | or iPhone | 10:05 |
| iekku | alterego, link? | 10:06 |
| alterego | Actually, the content I found insulting | 10:06 |
| khertan | hiemanshu: i ll move too ... | 10:06 |
| alterego | https://www.meego.com/ | 10:06 |
| DawnFoster | alterego: who, me? | 10:06 |
| pabs3 | how about switching to a normal Linux distro like Fedora or Debian? | 10:06 |
| alterego | It will reside under the Linux Foundation | 10:07 |
| alterego | It will be governed by TSG | 10:07 |
| wmarone | pabs3: find me xorg drivers for them, along with full hardware support on the device | 10:07 |
| DawnFoster | honestly, that blog was really hard for him to write. | 10:07 |
| lbt_hel | mmm ... so the name changes.... well, who would have thought the MeeGo brand was 'tainted' after nokia left? | 10:07 |
| alterego | Great, because Intel have such a good f'ing record at being open and forthcoming .. | 10:07 |
| pabs3 | wmarone: you can steal those from Android/Tizen/WebOS/whatever | 10:07 |
| lbt_hel | I'm interested in "Membership in most project teams (Release Engineering, QA, Program Management, etc.) is invite-only" | 10:07 |
| alterego | lbt_hel: :/ | 10:08 |
| wmarone | pabs3: if it were that easy it would have been done | 10:08 |
| Milhouse | Linux plus HTML5, might as well have called it WebOS. Oh no, that's already taken. | 10:08 |
| Sage | lbt_hel: wasn't it like that in MeeGoo as well? | 10:08 |
| dm8tbr | lbt_hel: I earlier commented what Tizen actually means in a long forgotten language | 10:08 |
| dm8tbr | 08:40:05< dm8tbr> it means 'we don't care about community and openness' in an ancient language | 10:08 |
| wmarone | certainly, you can't steal the Android ones due to the Bionic dependency | 10:08 |
| lbt_hel | Sage: no... it purported to be meritocratic | 10:08 |
| * pabs3 figures LD_PRELOAD would help | 10:09 | |
| lbt_hel | which sounds rather pompous in irc :) | 10:09 |
| alterego | Intel have been nothing but shady and secretive since day 1 imo .. | 10:09 |
| w00t | lbt_hel: we all know how that went | 10:09 |
| wmarone | lbt_hel: is one's ability to pay considered meritocratic? | 10:09 |
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| kyb3R | wmarone :) | 10:09 |
| alterego | A bit sick of their FOSS project ideals and practices -_- | 10:09 |
| lbt_hel | well, as usual, you can't pre-announce without getting all the domains etc | 10:09 |
| lbt_hel | at least this time it got a .org :) | 10:09 |
| alterego | Hahah | 10:10 |
| iekku | still no mail to community | 10:10 |
| dm8tbr | lbt_hel: this time they should have taken .com | 10:10 |
| Milhouse | Shouldn't the criticism of Intel also be directed at Linux Foundation, if they continue to host these projects? | 10:10 |
| lbt_hel | Lets see - if it's a rebrand and we keep the same people then sure... | 10:10 |
| kyb3R | iekku: that would be communicating with the community, that is a no-no ;) | 10:10 |
| raster | alterego: well you might want to look at the alternatives? is google MORE open and forthcoming? apple? rim?... | 10:11 |
| raster | look at your choices. | 10:11 |
| alterego | Milhouse: probably :) | 10:11 |
| Milhouse | I'm beginning to wonder what the point of LF involvement is these days | 10:11 |
| iekku | kyb3R, so it seems | 10:11 |
| wmarone | raster: so, rock and a hard place? | 10:11 |
| raster | don't look a gift-horse in the mouth | 10:11 |
| raster | :) | 10:11 |
| wmarone | raster: even when that horse can't get up on all 4 legs? | 10:11 |
| kyb3R | Milhouse: have been wondering that for long time already | 10:11 |
| alterego | raster: why? Why can't I expect a company to actually do what they keep saying they'll do? | 10:11 |
| dm8tbr | raster: that's why you recommend to board yet-another-soon-to-be-abandoned ship? | 10:11 |
| alterego | Rather that talk complete BS | 10:11 |
| raster | wmarone: from the point of being open.. meego was way ahead of the others | 10:11 |
| wmarone | it was | 10:11 |
| wmarone | and it still went nowhere | 10:12 |
| lbt_hel | dm8tbr: lets see if we have a new ship or they're just relaunching this one | 10:12 |
| wmarone | well, aside from a handful of low end netbooks and terrible tablets | 10:12 |
| dm8tbr | lbt_hel: they are sinking this one with torpedoes right now | 10:12 |
| wmarone | though the MeeGo CE team has done a great job despite things | 10:12 |
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| raster | dm8tbr: no. i'm just saying that people are upset it seems.. but maybe they need to look just how much they did actually get. | 10:12 |
| raster | (from intel) | 10:12 |
| lbt_hel | DawnFoster: .... so is it a new paint job or are we moving from one project to a brand new one? | 10:12 |
| dm8tbr | raster: they should rather ask themselves if they want to bend over AGAIN for intel | 10:13 |
| DawnFoster | quite a bit of the technology is going to be different, so a new project made more sense. | 10:13 |
| Milhouse | raster: you gotta remember, many people here have been through this already before, at least once with moblin/maemo and perhaps two or three major strategy shifts during maemo that codsed everything up | 10:14 |
| lbt_hel | DawnFoster: so no continuity | 10:14 |
| mece | DawnFoster, starting from scratch again? | 10:14 |
| DawnFoster | but it's after midnight here and I've been up since 5am so my brain is fried | 10:14 |
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| lbt_hel | new accounts, new wiki.... new community OBS? | 10:14 |
| Milhouse | DawnFoster: Can you confirm the status of Qt? | 10:14 |
| raster | dm8tbr: i wouldn't go painting intel all black. nokia (the major other partner in meego) abandoned it without so much as a thankyou. i'd say that probably left intel, in a very tough spot | 10:14 |
| DawnFoster | we'll be transitioning people and using some of the technology | 10:14 |
| DawnFoster | for legal reasons, we had to start over with new accounts | 10:15 |
| alterego | We obviously discussed the transfering video | 10:15 |
| alterego | Oops | 10:15 |
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| lbt_hel | OK | 10:15 |
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| alterego | DawnFoster: Qt? | 10:15 |
| raster | and so you expect someone who just was shafted and in trouble to be all nice, friendly and open about everything now while they are trying to figure out what to do? | 10:15 |
| raster | (i know nothing of the internals that went on there so i'm just saying it from the outside) | 10:16 |
| DawnFoster | the new project is more html5 based for apps | 10:16 |
| raster | so maybe people should cut them some slack? | 10:16 |
| DawnFoster | we'll have some transition plans for Qt | 10:16 |
| raster | by the same toke if your father or mother or brother/sister died today... | 10:16 |
| raster | would i suddenly expect you to be all nice and welcoming and throw me parties? | 10:16 |
| raster | no | 10:16 |
| hena | this ranting happens everytime when there's a fork or something similar | 10:16 |
| hena | it passes | 10:17 |
| raster | i'd be understanding if you lashed out a bit and were grumpy and dissilusioned or what not | 10:17 |
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| hena | just better not to take part of it :) | 10:17 |
| sivang | ah, the channel is still here... | 10:17 |
| sivang | What a sad day for us. | 10:17 |
| wmarone | hena: well, you've got the remnants of two communities who have been getting yanked around for the better part of the last year and a half so... | 10:17 |
| araujo | DawnFoster, start over with new accounts, you mean .. in the web site and services? | 10:17 |
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| hena | sure, but that's what it is and it's not gonna change | 10:18 |
| alterego | wmarone: More like 2 years .. | 10:18 |
| Jucato | I'd say that analogy is a bit flawed/lacking | 10:18 |
| DawnFoster | yes - new accounts for the meego community members on tizen | 10:18 |
| DawnFoster | we're still working out some SSO bugs & then accounts will be live | 10:18 |
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| raster | Jucato: ok replace death with divorce | 10:18 |
| raster | doesnt much matter | 10:18 |
| araujo | DawnFoster, aah ok, thanks | 10:18 |
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| Milhouse | hena: yes, if you can understand or agree with the architecture/technology proposed for the new project... not sure I can in this case. No Qt, bad move. | 10:19 |
| Jucato | raster: this is more like lashing out at the people who have been supporting you through the divorce then | 10:19 |
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| raster | no | 10:19 |
| hena | ok, for me it's a good thing i guess since i've never liked qt | 10:19 |
| hena | but even aside that i don't think it matters | 10:19 |
| * sivang is discontent with redoing all the work that delayed us even on web infrastructure all over again. | 10:19 | |
| hena | however, i'm not gonna get sucked in this, so i'll just idle for now | 10:19 |
| raster | its more like saying to them "this town just reminds me of my ex too much. i'm moving to another town 500miles away called tizen. you can visit me there if u want" | 10:20 |
| sivang | Milhouse: very bad move of no Qt | 10:20 |
| sivang | Milhouse: not for me as well. | 10:20 |
| Jucato | anyway, arguing about an analogy is moot :) | 10:20 |
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| alterego | DawnFoster: when you say "transission plans for Qt" do you mean a few docs saying how easy it is to write HTML and JS, or do you mean we will have Qt available on that platform? | 10:21 |
| DawnFoster | honestly, we're still working on those details | 10:21 |
| chouchoune | Qt-HTML instead of Qt-QML ? | 10:22 |
| * Jucato guesses no Qt at all | 10:22 | |
| DawnFoster | we will have some way to transition, but exactly how is still tbd | 10:22 |
| Milhouse | Not having a native framework doesn't make sense - maybe in 3-5 years it will, but not now. | 10:22 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: SSO bugs is so last year... | 10:22 |
| chouchoune | mmmhhh, please, get Qt at least as an alternative to HTML5 and a native framework | 10:22 |
| * alterego sighs | 10:22 | |
| sivang | alterego: I would not expect *anything* more | 10:22 |
| DawnFoster | sivang: this is the same bug that was prevent new account creation on meego last week that we had to roll back some changes | 10:22 |
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| DawnFoster | ok, people I am running on a couple hours of sleep | 10:23 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: so I guess they are not last year :) but very this year | 10:23 |
| DawnFoster | and I've been up for 20 hours | 10:23 |
| alterego | Good night | 10:23 |
| alterego | :P | 10:23 |
| DawnFoster | so night, night for reals this time ;) | 10:23 |
| mece | DawnFoster, get some rest | 10:23 |
| sivang | night DawnFoster | 10:23 |
| Milhouse | good night | 10:23 |
| mece | DawnFoster, night | 10:23 |
| erbo | gnight | 10:23 |
| jrautio | if they have ported Qt for Android, I suppose it would be possible for the community to do that | 10:24 |
| jrautio | the same for Tizen | 10:24 |
| alterego | jrautio: not the point | 10:24 |
| sivang | jrautio: why would someon want to touc Tizen if tey did not want to touch MeeGO? | 10:24 |
| sivang | Not going to get fooled after a platform again. Qt FTW. | 10:25 |
| chouchoune | sivang: politics ... | 10:25 |
| Milhouse | jrautio: it's needs to be officially supported, with a future - not a community effort | 10:25 |
| alterego | They don't have come up with shit names. | 10:25 |
| Milhouse | Without support in Tizen, Qt has limited mobile future other than Symbian, which is dying. | 10:25 |
| mece | sivang, well MeeGo never really had a chance after elopocalypse so.. | 10:25 |
| chouchoune | even the EFL/GTK things from LiMo would be better than HTML5 only :/ | 10:26 |
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| chouchoune | and I'm not a fan of GTK/EFL at all | 10:26 |
| chouchoune | but that !!! | 10:26 |
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| Milhouse | So which site will shut down first: talk.maemo.org or meego.com? | 10:27 |
| dneary | Milhouse, meego.com | 10:28 |
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| Milhouse | who'd a thought it, eh? | 10:28 |
| dneary | Milhouse, There are a group of people who will stay on maemo.org long after the meego rename is over | 10:28 |
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| Milhouse | i thought maemo.org was not going to be funded after the end of this year | 10:28 |
| dneary | chouchoune, Is Tizen GTK/EFL based? | 10:29 |
| dneary | Milhouse, It's funded for another year I think | 10:29 |
| dneary | But even after funding is gone, someone will host it | 10:29 |
| Milhouse | ok ta. that's good news. | 10:29 |
| X-Fade | Milhouse: end of 2012 | 10:29 |
| sivang | mece: more complex than that, elopcalypse did not just happend, something in meego made it so, it would never happen if NOkia did not try to play with MOblin but went strauight to the next version of Maemo | 10:29 |
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| Milhouse | sivang: i think you can look at in two ways - Elop was right and knew this was coming, or Elops decision caused this to happen. | 10:30 |
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| wmarone | sivang: err, effectively that's what they did | 10:30 |
| wmarone | Harmattan has way more in common with Maemo 5 than MeeGo | 10:31 |
| mece | sivang, true true. And they did and Harmattan is great. | 10:31 |
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| Milhouse | sivang: Out of desperation Intel hocked MeeGo to Samsung to get a handset manufacturer on board. | 10:31 |
| sivang | mece: exactly. | 10:31 |
| sivang | Milhouse: they need to restarworks, restart a web site everything. Seems they are not concentrating on the right endeavors | 10:31 |
| sivang | but I really *don't* care anymmpre | 10:31 |
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| Milhouse | sivang: relatively small bump in the road - the major stall is the switch of technologies. many community members (and developers) will walk away. new ones may join of course. | 10:32 |
| sivang | I have a framework that never disappointed me, Qt, and it in its way to support HTML5 (which is saner then just mandating a platfomr on HTML5 until even the spec is done) | 10:32 |
| Milhouse | sivang: just when they couldn't afford yet more delays... they cause more delays. exasperating. | 10:33 |
| sivang | Milhouse: exactly | 10:33 |
| sivang | anyway people, I'm back to my cute Qt :) | 10:34 |
| sivang | I felt for some time this channel is meaningless and this morning I just got the confirmation | 10:34 |
| sivang | at least the shirts will be a collector's item. | 10:34 |
| khertan | how much are you willing to bet? Maemo.org die first, or MeeGo.com | 10:34 |
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| wmarone | meego.com has no loyalty | 10:34 |
| mece | meego.com | 10:34 |
| khertan | dneary: hi, did you know there is a french #meego-fr network ? | 10:35 |
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| khertan | maybe i should say there was :) | 10:35 |
| sivang | N9 will be supported until 2015 | 10:35 |
| wmarone | sivang: I doubt that, sincerely | 10:35 |
| sivang | I would bet Maemo.org stays | 10:35 |
| sivang | wmarone: I don't. | 10:35 |
| khertan | sivang: but even what is said in preference information, n9 is more maemo than meego :) | 10:35 |
| sivang | khertan: that is why I think maemo.org will stay, or at least a site similar inside the wonderful Nokia Developer web | 10:37 |
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| mece | wmarone, support means you'll get it fixed if it breaks | 10:37 |
| Milhouse | sivang: N9 is negatively impacted by this announcement (specifically the shift away from Qt) | 10:37 |
| sivang | Milhouse: on the contrary | 10:37 |
| mece | wmarone, and that the store remains functional etc. | 10:37 |
| alterego | But it tizin't maremo either :P | 10:37 |
| alterego | maemo .. | 10:37 |
| alterego | tizen't maemo rather | 10:38 |
| wmarone | mece: it's Nokia. I expect that they'll fail just as badly as they have. | 10:38 |
| mece | lol | 10:38 |
| sivang | wmarone: tizen is Nokia? | 10:38 |
| cedric | Milhouse: n9 was negatively impacted monts ago ! | 10:38 |
| wmarone | sivang: no, you are mixing conversations | 10:38 |
| sivang | N9 is not negantively impacted anymore | 10:38 |
| sivang | it was when the move out from meego happened | 10:38 |
| mece | thing is tho, N9 was already dead from the getgo so I don't think this affects it that much | 10:38 |
| sivang | since then, it has see immense popularity | 10:39 |
| sivang | mece: stop that, it is not dead :) | 10:39 |
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| Jartza | N9 is not impacted at all anymore. it's obsolete. | 10:39 |
| sivang | mece: it is alive as can be. | 10:39 |
| mece | sad thing is that they call it meego phone. Should have called it maemo which it is. | 10:39 |
| Milhouse | cedric: well yes obviously, but even more so (if that is possible) today! | 10:39 |
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| * sivang does not worry and intends to promote the N9 himself. | 10:40 | |
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| mece | sivang, I know, but as a line of products it's dead, thus meego disappearing doesn't affect it. | 10:40 |
| sivang | already when I'm showing 950 to iPHoners they want to cry | 10:40 |
| alterego | Fuck it, I'm going WP7 | 10:40 |
| * alterego chuckles | 10:40 | |
| sivang | alterego: lol | 10:40 |
| Milhouse | mece: except if Qt remained relavent, it would help the N9... with Qt being effectively deprecated by this announcement, it means there is no long-term high-end future for Qt | 10:40 |
| * mece slaps alterego | 10:40 | |
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| khertan | Milhouse: future for desktop | 10:41 |
| * mece slaps alterego some more, just in case. | 10:41 | |
| sivang | Milhouse: Qt is here to stay, and on the handset as I see it. | 10:41 |
| alterego | Did you forget qt for the next billion? | 10:41 |
| sivang | all the right factors are there | 10:41 |
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| mece | Milhouse, well Qt is going to "the next billion" so I think Qt is safe. | 10:41 |
| khertan | Milhouse: and maybe they will drop qml or really improve it | 10:41 |
| khertan | mece: but still not available | 10:42 |
| Milhouse | alterego: I didn't forget them, just think that billion will be a hard sell now that the development platform has taken another hit | 10:42 |
| Jartza | hehe. Nokia used to be the most trusted brand in India | 10:42 |
| cedric | mece: are you trusting nokia for the futur of qt ?? | 10:42 |
| Jartza | 3 years in a row | 10:42 |
| Jartza | now the most trusted brand is Colgate | 10:42 |
| mece | @PeterN901: Identity crisis over: @PeterMeeGo is changing to new twitter name: @PeterN901. | 10:42 |
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| Milhouse | mece: Yes, the next billion and then you switch to XNA/Silverlight - might as well pack it in now and jump to Android. :) | 10:42 |
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| Milhouse | 901...? is that the new Nokia WP7 designation? | 10:44 |
| mece | I don't think so. | 10:44 |
| Milhouse | Ah, N901 - missed the N. Nokia don't do letters anymore. :) | 10:45 |
| mece | Peter is hopeful for more N9-like products I suppose | 10:45 |
| hiemanshu | Milhouse: moving to iPhone is better :P | 10:45 |
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| hiemanshu | not as locked down as Android once you JB It | 10:45 |
| Milhouse | hiemanshu: whatever floats your boat :) | 10:45 |
| khertan | Milhouse: n901 ? rx-71 ? | 10:46 |
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| khertan | ;) | 10:46 |
| mece | hiemanshu, I agree. I wont go ios, but I agree. | 10:46 |
| X-Fade | khertan: n9-01 | 10:46 |
| mece | X-Fade, what whaat? | 10:46 |
| khertan | 901 is a tribute to a porshe ;) | 10:46 |
| sivang | lol | 10:46 |
| khertan | X-Fade: so an n9 :) | 10:47 |
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| mece | @PeterN901: Right now nothing. But there should be a Nokia 901 one day according to new naming convention. RT @mece66 so what's N901? | 10:47 |
| Milhouse | @jphelminen: Moving from #Qt as framework to HTML5 centric is a bold move. Real reason: Intel & Samsung don't believe on Qt open gov? | 10:48 |
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| pabs3 | hiemanshu: I heard Linux can be installed on iPhones | 10:49 |
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| alterego | HTML5 is still such an immature and clunky environment :/ | 10:53 |
| alterego | I just wish someone would get it right with QML | 10:53 |
| alterego | Oh wait, Nokia did. | 10:53 |
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| mece | alterego: mmhmm | 10:56 |
| Milhouse | The more I think about the name, the more I hate it. What's your phone? "Tizen". Lame. Also with the backing of mostly Japanese and Korean manufacturers/carriers, will it have any success outside of Asia? Not sure I'm going to care about it any time soon. | 10:57 |
| Milhouse | We have an fizzy orange drink in the UK called Tizer. | 10:58 |
| Milhouse | s/an/a/ | 10:58 |
| infobot | Milhouse meant: We have a fizzy orange drink in the UK called Tizer. | 10:58 |
| alterego | I dunno, Tizen sounds like something that could be used for a compliance spec. | 10:58 |
| alterego | Where as the OS could be called what you want. | 10:59 |
| Milhouse | Mike Tizen | 10:59 |
| mece | Like FrabbleGronk! | 10:59 |
| alterego | Like "MyMo (Tizen Compliant)" | 10:59 |
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| gabriel9 | so what shall be now with qtcreator and qt quick and rest of the qt stuff? | 11:32 |
| Milhouse | All those Symbian phones Nokia hope to sell? | 11:32 |
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| Jaffa | gabriel9: We've already seen the spinning out of the Qt Project, so that might be safe | 11:33 |
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| w00t | Jaffa: do me a favour.. the next platform I decide to enjoy, never get involved with it :-P | 11:35 |
| gabriel9 | this is really bad news for meego :( | 11:35 |
| w00t | you keep killing them off | 11:35 |
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| jiero | um... | 11:36 |
| jiero | never a meego day of light ... | 11:36 |
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| gabriel9 | can qtqucick survive? | 11:39 |
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| harbaum | i really think the only way to go is barebones sdl or gles or whatever to be able to address ios, android etc once necessary | 11:46 |
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| Jaffa | w00t: Don't worry; after Harmattan I'm pretty sure it'll be Android. | 11:51 |
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| w00t | Jaffa: ah, please proceed | 11:52 |
| Jaffa | w00t: Ice Cream Sandwich's use of fragments to present consistent and scalable UIs to phones & tablets is pretty neat | 11:52 |
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| chouchoune | Jaffa: yes, please, kill Android now ;) | 11:53 |
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| mece | Jaffa, could you perhaps skip harmattan and go android first? Then iOS. | 11:53 |
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| Jaffa | mece: Surely Windows Phone 7's gotta figure in there somewhere... | 11:54 |
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| Jaffa | mece: Anyway, I'm not a masochist. Just deadly ;) | 11:54 |
| Milhouse | Jaffa: WP7 shouldn't take you long, probably finish it off in a weekend. | 11:55 |
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| mece | Milhouse, exactly. | 11:55 |
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| Milhouse | Followed by WebOS, which will take slightly longer, maybe leave that until a bank-holiday weekend. | 11:55 |
| mece | WebOS already died tho | 11:56 |
| Milhouse | Although it may top itself before you get around to it. | 11:56 |
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| arfoll | i'm glad intel put a removable velcro meego logo on their jackets :-) | 11:56 |
| Milhouse | mece: It's in Zombieland :) | 11:56 |
| Jaffa | arfoll: Did they? Is it a nice jacket? | 11:56 |
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| Milhouse | mece: Jaffa will need to use double-tap. | 11:56 |
| X-Fade | arfoll: lol :) | 11:56 |
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| Milhouse | arfoll: Now that's planning ahead...! | 11:56 |
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| arfoll | yeah its quite a nice jacket, especially in the UK where its freezing | 11:57 |
| mece | LOL | 11:57 |
| X-Fade | arfoll: So, now you are going to convert xbmc into HTML5? :) | 11:57 |
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| chouchoune | haha | 11:58 |
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| arfoll | X-Fade: pfff, to change it to <insert some weird technology here> next month? | 11:58 |
| X-Fade | arfoll: I'm sure your TV customers would welcome rapid change :) | 11:58 |
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| arfoll | X-Fade: i'm pretty sure this great show of unity will have them thinking google TV wasn't SOOO bad after all | 11:59 |
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| cedric | X-Fade: i am sure that tv customers like the html idea a lot more | 11:59 |
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| X-Fade | arfoll: indeed | 12:00 |
| arfoll | cedric: yeah, they actually don't care, selling them QML was probably harder | 12:00 |
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| cedric | arfoll: at least html is used in some tv standard like hbbtv in europe | 12:01 |
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| cedric | and tv channel are backing it | 12:01 |
| damien_l | html is used everywhere in the TV world :p | 12:01 |
| damien_l | esp. IPTV | 12:02 |
| cedric | damien_l: true ! | 12:02 |
| Jaffa | Bring back MHEG ;-) | 12:02 |
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| mece | my iptv thing is terribly slow and annoying. So yeah, probably html5 | 12:03 |
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| damien_l | not 5, it's often barely standard browsers, say Fresco, Netfront, Galio, ... but shifting to webkit-based stuff these days | 12:05 |
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| CosmoHill | damn email client | 12:13 |
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| CosmoHill | hey slaine, tea? | 12:13 |
| slaine | Coffee please | 12:13 |
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| * CosmoHill waves his wand and turns the tea into coffee | 12:14 | |
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| saLOUt | CosmoHill: wow - everyone is around ;) | 12:15 |
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| saLOUt | (but qgil) | 12:15 |
| CosmoHill | what country is qgil in? | 12:16 |
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| Termana | CosmoHill, should be US unless he is travelling/whatever | 12:16 |
| CosmoHill | he's probably asleep then | 12:17 |
| RST38h | Sooo.... | 12:17 |
| saLOUt | probably | 12:17 |
| Termana | He was around a couple of hours earlier | 12:17 |
| CosmoHill | definatly asleep then | 12:17 |
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| CosmoHill | so america is asleep, the UK and ireland are just waking up / getting into work, central europe is working and northen europe has gone to lunch | 12:18 |
| Myrtti | Finland should've returned from lunch by now | 12:19 |
| augustl | so is everyone with the cash pulling out of meego now? Both Linux Foundation and Intel? | 12:19 |
| augustl | making meego a community project? | 12:19 |
| brik | guess it is lunchtime indeed | 12:19 |
| Tm_T | Myrtti: or are on their second lunch, in case of me | 12:19 |
| CosmoHill | hey brik | 12:19 |
| brik | hey CosmoHill | 12:19 |
| * CosmoHill pokes Tm_T in the tummy | 12:19 | |
| Myrtti | Tm_T: or are having their first cup of coffee, like me | 12:19 |
| Myrtti | food is for the weak | 12:20 |
| mord | ooh coffee | 12:20 |
| Tm_T | CosmoHill: oy, stop poking the weak ^ | 12:20 |
| mord | now there's an idea | 12:20 |
| * RST38h yawns, cackles evilly | 12:20 | |
| * CosmoHill doesn't touch coffee | 12:20 | |
| Tm_T | mord: half a pot left, want some? | 12:20 |
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| RST38h | Hello, Myrtti, Cosmo | 12:20 |
| CosmoHill | RST38h: what kinda lazy vilan are you? | 12:20 |
| Termana | augustl, community project? pfft, all the monkeys are moving on. You'll be awefully lonesome | 12:21 |
| mord | Tm_T: indeed i do | 12:21 |
| Myrtti | mord: lolhello | 12:21 |
| RST38h | Cosmo: The one who says "told ya!" | 12:21 |
| Myrtti | RST38h: moo | 12:21 |
| mord | hullo Myrtti | 12:21 |
| augustl | Termana: so MeeGo is effectively abandonend by everyone? | 12:21 |
| Myrtti | opinions vary | 12:22 |
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| * CosmoHill smells a troll | 12:22 | |
| augustl | first I learned the N9 was pretty locked down due to Aegis. Now this. Hmmm.... | 12:22 |
| Termana | Basically. Everyone that has mattered to the project seems to have confirmed they are moving on. | 12:22 |
| CosmoHill | smells like Lynx | 12:22 |
| Tm_T | CosmoHill: so now you're hungry too? | 12:22 |
| augustl | Termana: I see | 12:22 |
| Termana | Intel and LF obviously will not be supporting it | 12:23 |
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| CosmoHill | Tm_T: nah, just had my wheatabix | 12:23 |
| Myrtti | and again, Termana's opinions may not reflect the official opinions, or even unofficial opinions of the majority of the community | 12:23 |
| chouchoune | will we have a 1.3 release ? | 12:24 |
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| Termana | Myrtti, yeah yeah. Everyone will be munching on the monkey poo that gets thrown at us next. I've been through this hoop a couple of times around now. | 12:24 |
| Tm_T | CosmoHill: still room for roasted troll in berry sauce | 12:24 |
| augustl | that's why I'm asking #meego and not Termana :) | 12:24 |
| CosmoHill | it's lunch in 2 hours, I'll have it then | 12:24 |
| augustl | just curious what people are thinking | 12:24 |
| Myrtti | augustl: most people don't probably have an opinion yet | 12:25 |
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| * CosmoHill didn't even tho | 12:25 | |
| CosmoHill | *know | 12:25 |
| Termana | If MeeGo survives as a viable community project after the full introduction of Tizen, I'll eat my hat. | 12:25 |
| Termana | And record it for everyone | 12:26 |
| RST38h | Meego does not survive. | 12:26 |
| RST38h | Tizen does not survive either. | 12:26 |
| Myrtti | I'd say the dice are still rolling | 12:26 |
| RST38h | No, Myrtti. The dice have come to rest the moment last IDF started | 12:27 |
| Termana | RST38h, based on everything that has happened thus far, nor does whatever comes after Tizen. | 12:27 |
| RST38h | Termana: Nothign comes after Tizen. | 12:27 |
| CosmoHill | what will happen to the copyright? | 12:27 |
| Myrtti | I'm sceptical over everything at the moment, both positive and negative ideas, thoughts and possibilities | 12:28 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: Actually, a month or two earlier, most likely, but I mean the publicly visible dice | 12:28 |
| Termana | CosmoHill, LF will hold on to trademarks etc. I would say. If that's what you mean. | 12:28 |
| CosmoHill | yes | 12:29 |
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| Milhouse | What to make of this? http://nomovok.com/news/56/73/Novomok-provides-Tizen-with-integrated-Qt | 12:29 |
| Milhouse | So a Qt-enabled build of Tizen? Fragmentation, much? | 12:30 |
| pinchartl | what's the native tizen gui toolkit ? | 12:32 |
| pinchartl | EFL ? :-) | 12:32 |
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| * CosmoHill wonders why his tea tastes of Fairy Liquid :/ | 12:33 | |
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| pabs3 | pinchartl: HTML5 | 12:34 |
| ljp | CosmoHill: cause you made it with unicorns? | 12:36 |
| chouchoune | http://nomovok.com/news/55/73/Nomovok-releases-Steelrat-MeeGo-Tizen-system | 12:36 |
| chouchoune | Steelrat | 12:36 |
| chouchoune | a merge of the merge of a merge of 2 systems ;) | 12:36 |
| KaziKluBey_N900 | Abandon ship! Save blobs and swim to safety(maemo) :) | 12:37 |
| Termana | "culmination of years of work to create a commercially-ready version of MeeGo" | 12:37 |
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| pinchartl | pabs3: I mean underneath that | 12:37 |
| Termana | MeeGo has only been around about a year, so that statement is false | 12:37 |
| Robot101 | nice of them to have it ready on tizen before the code is out, very convenient :) | 12:37 |
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| * CosmoHill blinks at ljp | 12:38 | |
| hena | Termana: maybe it's like manyears | 12:38 |
| CosmoHill | Termana: I'm sorry what | 12:38 |
| anlijiu | efl webkit html5 on tizen ? | 12:38 |
| Milhouse | I wonder if Steelrat will be available for the N900? :) | 12:39 |
| CosmoHill | what kinda screwed up calanader do they use | 12:39 |
| CosmoHill | MeeGo is 21 months old | 12:39 |
| Termana | Exactly. | 12:39 |
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| CosmoHill | the same age as my mate's dog and a month younger than his nephew so easy to remember for me | 12:40 |
| Termana | Someone fscked up trying to make it sound better. | 12:40 |
| CosmoHill | bleh, I've been using fsck a lot | 12:40 |
| CosmoHill | Fedora will throw a hissy fit if you don't fsck your JFS by hand | 12:41 |
| Myrtti | I think I need more coffee | 12:41 |
| * SpeedEvil thinks of an open phone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=08Wbh6HOWwA#t=21s | 12:41 | |
| * CosmoHill gives Myrtti more coffee | 12:41 | |
| topro | hey, lets give it some spice. will tizen use .deb? | 12:42 |
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| CosmoHill | if they change the package manager they're just being wankers | 12:43 |
| * CosmoHill puts a coin in the swear jar | 12:43 | |
| * CosmoHill puts some more in cos that's quiet harsh actually | 12:43 | |
| saLOUt | I hope they just start from opensuse with some modified packages. Would be the easiest… ;) | 12:43 |
| dm8tbr | CosmoHill: feel free to vent at the #meego-bar | 12:43 |
| dm8tbr | saLOUt: no, they should switch totally to debian packaging, would make stuff so much easier | 12:44 |
| topro | dm8tbr: +1 | 12:44 |
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| CosmoHill | depends, if you're from an rpm background it's harder | 12:44 |
| saLOUt | if there is an zypper interface for debs, it would not make a difference for me | 12:44 |
| dm8tbr | .oO(and the song goes trolololoololoooo, troollololololooooo, trololollloooooooooooooooooooooo) | 12:44 |
| eg81 | :) | 12:45 |
| CosmoHill | dm8tbr: sounds like an old fashion phone | 12:45 |
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| CosmoHill | I shouldn't enjoy seeing one of my ops kicked from the server by nickserv but I do | 12:46 |
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| chouchoune | what's also pissing me off is that I saw Intel Appup people last week which were pushing us building a MeeGo Network in France and acted like so enthousist with what we tried to build ... and 6 days later, ... | 12:50 |
| CosmoHill | I swear people don't think about the future | 12:50 |
| CosmoHill | like at uni we have this HPC, it's used for 12 weeks of the year and of those 12 weeks it's only stressed in the last 6 | 12:51 |
| dm8tbr | chouchoune: you're always supposed to follow intels latest hype | 12:51 |
| dm8tbr | chouchoune: until they decide about the new latest hype | 12:51 |
| chouchoune | dm8tbr: that's not even the point | 12:51 |
| CosmoHill | and from December it becomes totally redundant (and mine, mwhahahaa) | 12:51 |
| chouchoune | why pushing us, for that ! | 12:52 |
| chouchoune | pushing us to do more ! | 12:52 |
| dm8tbr | chouchoune: that is something the head of community work in meego/tizen should answer to | 12:52 |
| dm8tbr | (I would not expect an answer though) | 12:53 |
| CosmoHill | dm8tbr: you mean like the two dozen processor sockets? | 12:53 |
| chouchoune | I can ask french Appup contacts direcly also ;) | 12:53 |
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| pabs3 | chouchoune: u sure they even knew? | 12:57 |
| chouchoune | pabs3: I think so | 12:58 |
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| chouchoune | talking HTML5 lots of time | 12:58 |
| chouchoune | teasing some people with confidence in the platform | 12:58 |
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| chouchoune | they knew it, that's quite sure for me | 12:59 |
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| chouchoune | today, they already have a TizenFrance Twitter account | 12:59 |
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| chouchoune | they were prepared to that | 12:59 |
| iekku | why not? | 12:59 |
| iekku | they need to get infra ready | 12:59 |
| chouchoune | I'm not saying that they shouldn't | 12:59 |
| chouchoune | of course | 13:00 |
| slaine | chouchoune: they'll want to take you with them | 13:00 |
| slaine | MeeGo is a brand and they've just rebranded it. | 13:00 |
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| chouchoune | slaine: not only, they've removed what makes MeeGo for the moment (Qt) | 13:00 |
| chouchoune | anyway, let's see | 13:00 |
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| chouchoune | I might follow as there isn't any alternative | 13:00 |
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| slaine | The same could have been said about Clutter being removed from Moblin to make MeeGo | 13:01 |
| slaine | I'm stuck with it | 13:01 |
| cedric | chouchoune: you made a shortcut, by saying qt is meego | 13:01 |
| slaine | To quote dneary "Not from scratch - what's being thrown out, exactly? A rebrand implies to me Samsung didn't want to be associated with MeeGo." | 13:01 |
| slaine | my thoughts exactly | 13:01 |
| chouchoune | ok, let's see then | 13:01 |
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| dneary | slaine, Actually, it's looking more like a rebranding of SLP than a rebranding of MeeGo (I'm getting some updates now) | 13:02 |
| slaine | dneary: keep us posted | 13:02 |
| chouchoune | what I would like also is to have some visibility before 2012 on the project ! | 13:02 |
| cedric | because nokia was selling their device with qt as a meego device when the underlying were not | 13:02 |
| slaine | it's hard to make informed comments when your not informed ;) | 13:02 |
| arfoll | after the months of silence I expected more information to be given than a name and a logo | 13:04 |
| chouchoune | arfoll: you have "HTML5" also | 13:05 |
| chouchoune | ok, leaving to eat instead of upsetting myself ;) | 13:05 |
| * CosmoHill goes off to uni to upgrade his HPC, cyas | 13:05 | |
| hena | i wish they included efl on it | 13:06 |
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| Venemo | wtf is this? http://www.phonearena.com/news/MeeGo-dead-to-be-replaced-by-Samsung-Intel-backed-Tizen_id22476 - seriously? | 13:10 |
| hena | seriously | 13:11 |
| slaine | Venemo: seriously | 13:11 |
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| slaine | It's still not very clear | 13:11 |
| dneary | slaine, Interestingly, SLP is .deb based | 13:11 |
| Venemo | heh | 13:11 |
| Ans5i | https://meego.com/ | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | dneary: yet tizen is rpm | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | not that it matters | 13:11 |
| dneary | Stskeeps, Reference? | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | dneary: anas and others | 13:12 |
| slaine | Is MeeGo rebinding or is Intel moving, I'm still not clear | 13:12 |
| dneary | Stskeeps, I hear that SLP is still .deb based, and that's still to be decided | 13:12 |
| slaine | rebranding | 13:12 |
| Stskeeps | dneary: i think what matters is html5 and api compliance there | 13:12 |
| slaine | And what will the end result be, WebOS or ChromeOS clone ? | 13:12 |
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| * pabs3 wonders if it will be Debian based or just .deb based (like MeeGo was not Fedora based, but .rpm based) | 13:13 | |
| Venemo | "We believe the future belongs to HTML5-based applications" --- what is wrong with the world? | 13:13 |
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| slaine | Why can't they all get behind 1 banner, build a common base and differentiate up the stack | 13:13 |
| slaine | sigh | 13:13 |
| dneary | slaine, Here's some info on SLP from a year ago: (PDF, through google link): http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oss.kr%2F%3Fmodule%3Dfile%26act%3DprocFileDownload%26file_srl%3D1609%26sid%3D96028cc2f522ec804ec973e9b92d5bd9&rct=j&q=Introduction%20to%20SLP%20Samsung%20Linux%20Platform&ei=QfOCTtLZLYHH0QWvn7W2AQ&usg=AFQjCNHU5qD9ufqbTNAYTHc83anGqlys1g&sig2=um_rKWxt7qvKGsdZn1mj3w&cad=rja | 13:13 |
| dneary | slaine, That's what we're seeing | 13:14 |
| gri | Venemo: html5 does not even work perfectly on youtube yet :D | 13:14 |
| dneary | slaine, People do that when they see that their banner is not the one that's going to win | 13:14 |
| dneary | Markets are like politics | 13:14 |
| dneary | And you end up with a 2 party system, because most people only get one vote | 13:14 |
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| dneary | pabs3, It's already just .deb based | 13:15 |
| Venemo | gri, HTML5 is not even a programming language, its specification isn't even finished, it doesn't even work, etc, etc. that's why I'm asking: what's wrong with the world? | 13:15 |
| slaine | dneary: well, obs can build debs, so I can guess they'll abstract back to that level | 13:16 |
| pgc | gri, the press release is using html5 as a catch all for html5/css3/javascript | 13:16 |
| gri | pgc: Nice, I don't like all three of them | 13:16 |
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| Venemo | so, why are we still having a #meego channel? why doesn't everyone go to #tizen - is there even such a channel yet? lol. | 13:16 |
| gri | I need my compiler and debugger | 13:16 |
| biedro | cause its all about future :] I guess native apps will still work ;) and it will be a way to go in more advanced apps | 13:16 |
| Termana | Venemo, there is | 13:16 |
| Venemo | lol | 13:16 |
| ab | there are actually 145 people out there :) | 13:17 |
| Termana | Wow, three people joined when I said that :p right on | 13:17 |
| pabs3 | so SLP seems to have a lot of proprietary stuff | 13:17 |
| * vmlemon_ wonders why they don't just add a telephony stack to ChromeOS and call it a day - after all, they're achieving the same effect with this new piece of vapourware. | 13:17 | |
| javispedro | Venemo, there's, and there have been unlogged discussions already afaiu. | 13:17 |
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| Venemo | javispedro :) | 13:18 |
| javispedro | actually :( | 13:18 |
| Venemo | so, what happened to Intel's "we are committed to meego"? | 13:18 |
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| pabs3 | same as Nokia's commitment, the toilet | 13:19 |
| hena | i thought intel was still in it | 13:20 |
| Venemo | LoL | 13:20 |
| javispedro | what's fun about this HTML5 thingie is that it's already fragmented even before any player started really doing anything with it. | 13:20 |
| slaine | pabs3: I didn't see much proprietary stuff | 13:20 |
| Venemo | I won't say I'm surprised (because I'm not), but it's still ridiculous | 13:20 |
| Venemo | javispedro, yeah, exactly | 13:20 |
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| hena | Venemo: why lol? | 13:21 |
| vmlemon_ | Hah. The *LiMo Foundation* are involved in it? | 13:21 |
| vmlemon_ | They've delivered nothing but hot air for years. | 13:21 |
| javispedro | vmlemon_, they have delivered. In Asia. | 13:21 |
| npm | so let me get this straight... Qt and QML being thrown under bus and replaced by HTML5? Lame! | 13:21 |
| javispedro | (at least) | 13:21 |
| vmlemon_ | (Flashbacks to the Access Linux Platform flop, and that stupid First Else thingy that never shipped)... | 13:22 |
| pabs3 | slaine: the PDF got linked to had a diagram where blue = proprietary and lots of blue | 13:23 |
| pabs3 | that got linked above | 13:23 |
| javispedro | vmlemon_, in fact everytime the arch of SLP has been talked about I've noticed it greatly resembles that of ALP | 13:23 |
| vmlemon_ | Just as well that they finally saw sense and decided to switch to proper Open Source, instead of their weird Shared Source initiative... | 13:23 |
| vmlemon_ | javispedro: Interesting. | 13:23 |
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| slaine | pabs3: I guess i was focusing on all the commonalities between it and previous Moblin diagrams | 13:25 |
| pabs3 | huh, the diagram claims that the OpenGL ES code is "open source" | 13:25 |
| javispedro | http://www.wacapps.net/ | 13:26 |
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| vmlemon_ | "Bring out your dead (platforms)!" | 13:26 |
| pabs3 | whats this vconf thing, anyone heard of that? | 13:26 |
| npm | so while apps like netflix are building on qt to supply a DRM'd framework, Intel is moving away from Qt and expects to reinvent the wheel for this? | 13:26 |
| npm | ( http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=58613&page=20 ) | 13:26 |
| gri | vmlemon_: "But I am not dead yet .." | 13:26 |
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| vmlemon_ | Heh | 13:26 |
| snowpong | gri: "Oh don't be such a baby" | 13:27 |
| * pabs3 wonders why SLP didn't just use connman/nm | 13:27 | |
| javispedro | there you have, an example of a tizen app http://www.wacapps.net/learn/-/asset_publisher/m6CB/content/using-the-wac-accelerometer-api?redirect=%2Flearn | 13:27 |
| Venemo | how much is the estimated time until Tizen actually delivers something? | 13:28 |
| ShadowJK | years? :) | 13:28 |
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| npm | given they'll be reinvenging several nonround wheels... 10 years? | 13:28 |
| npm | reinventing | 13:28 |
| Venemo | and also, what's the opinion on Tizen of Nokia engineers (who are working on MeeGo CE)? | 13:28 |
| sivang | re all | 13:29 |
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| javispedro | and, what will happen to MeegoCE? | 13:29 |
| ShadowJK | Someone has infected someone with ADHD :) | 13:29 |
| npm | so seriously, how would i use tizen to deliver DRM'd media content ? | 13:29 |
| sivang | npm++++++ | 13:29 |
| iekku | javispedro, we are having today meeting | 13:29 |
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| npm | maybe I can write some CSS rules to hide the encryption code? :-) | 13:29 |
| sivang | iekku: tizen meeting? | 13:30 |
| iekku | ce is anyways going to governance now | 13:30 |
| javispedro | I guess, this wouldn't have happened if the steering group wasn't a fully Intel-only body | 13:30 |
| vmlemon_ | Would it be wrong to compare Nokia/the Linux Foundation to Dignitas, right now? ;) | 13:30 |
| iekku | sivang, meego :) | 13:30 |
| npm | i'd compare them to HP | 13:30 |
| vmlemon_ | ("Here's where you can dispose of your dead technology"). | 13:30 |
| npm | under apotheker | 13:30 |
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| * pabs3 has decided to always misspell tizen as tism | 13:30 | |
| sivang | iekku: maybe we can just make it back a Nokia open goverened mobile linux distro? do we really ned te name meego? :) | 13:30 |
| vmlemon_ | Or LiMaeGo? | 13:31 |
| javispedro | pabs3, I've mispelled it as nitzsche | 13:31 |
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| pabs3 | sivang: just merge with Fedora? | 13:31 |
| sivang | pabs3: no, I like Mameo | 13:31 |
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| sivang | Maemo has all it needs to become the next big thing, and if we provide a trimmed size version | 13:32 |
| pabs3 | sivang: oh I thought you meant MeeGo | 13:32 |
| iekku | sivang, ce is going to governance, not nokia paid | 13:32 |
| * npm goes back to writing N9 app | 13:32 | |
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| sivang | it will just like Tizen but better for HTML5 | 13:32 |
| sivang | iekku: ah right, cool | 13:32 |
| pabs3 | sivang: in the case u want Maemo, I say merge with Debian :) | 13:32 |
| sivang | pabs3: more like it, yes | 13:32 |
| iekku | sivang, there has been mails in handset mailing list, we are looking for tsg currently | 13:32 |
| sivang | iekku: nice :) | 13:33 |
| iekku | sivang, several nomination mails arrived etc | 13:33 |
| sivang | iekku: I would love it to be something for Nokia to base upon, in their hopeful next linux based platforms. | 13:33 |
| sivang | iekku: ths is in meego-handset yet? | 13:33 |
| sivang | *yes? | 13:33 |
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| iekku | sivang, all the information have been shared in meego-handset mailing list | 13:34 |
| iekku | sivang, i think car | 13:34 |
| sivang | iekku: yes, I see it now. Too many emails | 13:34 |
| iekku | ksgöasögl | 13:34 |
| sivang | :) | 13:34 |
| iekku | sorry, not used to this laptop | 13:34 |
| sivang | that'sactually the most active ML as I se at a glance | 13:34 |
| sivang | iekku: :) | 13:35 |
| * vmlemon_ wonders if Samsung will migrate the Bada stack onto the new platform (in place of SHP), given that they've involved in it. | 13:35 | |
| javispedro | samsung has like 4 different platforms now | 13:35 |
| sivang | iekku: My hope is that we can make something that would be attractive for Nokia to use, so we would perhaps see an N10 and more :) | 13:35 |
| sivang | javispedro: they are lost in the dark,and this is yet another shot without aiming. | 13:35 |
| iekku | sivang, let's see | 13:35 |
| sivang | javispedro: they will fall to WP7 eventually, hence Tizen has no future. | 13:35 |
| sivang | javispedro: it is just that WP7 like Android has more value in ecosystem and biz-dev when you try to reinvent wheels again and again al the time | 13:36 |
| * sivang wonders what happened to code re-use | 13:36 | |
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| sivang | someone needs to tell Intel putting websites up is rather easy, standing to the promise to not discourage complete communities is much harder. | 13:38 |
| sivang | vapor is vapor. Has it a website or not. | 13:38 |
| Venemo | sivang ++ | 13:39 |
| SpeedEvil | sivang: your hard-written code can be reused as a shiny matrix-like background to your HTML app. | 13:39 |
| javispedro | funniest thing I heard today. | 13:39 |
| gri | "We hope to use what we learned from the MeeGo project to make Tizen successful" did anyone else catch this up as irony in form of "they learned?" | 13:39 |
| Venemo | sivang, the sad part is that they did this just before MeeGo turned into something more than vapor | 13:39 |
| Venemo | gri ++ | 13:39 |
| javispedro | Venemo, and make it sound like if Meego already was "established" | 13:39 |
| Venemo | heh | 13:40 |
| elcaset | i went to the meego con in San Francisco, but don't know what to expect of Elements, except that it'll be smaller. | 13:40 |
| elcaset | [03:35] <elcaset> anybody here been to an Elements before? | 13:40 |
| Venemo | well, I can't really blame them (Intel). They couldn't (or didn't want to) work on MeeGo alone. so they did this. | 13:40 |
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| SpeedEvil | Extrapolating from the past. Openmoko - 10000 sales, then failure. N900 - 500k sales, then failure. This clearly means the next open phone will sell 25 million. | 13:41 |
| dneary | SpeedEvil, You're not counting the Green Phone? | 13:41 |
| pabs3 | SpeedEvil: ... and be even less open? | 13:41 |
| sivang | Venemo++ | 13:41 |
| SpeedEvil | There have been other open phones. | 13:42 |
| dneary | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenphone | 13:42 |
| sivang | Venemo: not fo the work on meego alone, bt for the sad part | 13:42 |
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| SpeedEvil | There is in fact a shipping, completely open-source mobile phone. | 13:42 |
| Venemo | SpeedEvil, N900 500k sales - where did you get that data? | 13:42 |
| Venemo | SpeedEvil, which is...? | 13:42 |
| SpeedEvil | For only $299 | 13:43 |
| SpeedEvil | Still supported by the maker. | 13:43 |
| SpeedEvil | http://www.sparkfun.com/products/287 | 13:43 |
| sivang | Venemo: Intel could work with any other devce mfct on meego | 13:43 |
| Venemo | SpeedEvil, very funny | 13:43 |
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| SpeedEvil | Venemo: The 500k figure was largely made up, based on the '120k in 5 weeks' quote. It is possibly somewhat pessimistic | 13:44 |
| Venemo | mhm | 13:44 |
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| alterego | I suppose it was a bit of a waste buying meegonetwork.org.uk then .. | 13:47 |
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| sivang | Venemo: I think it takes two to make deal, and two to break it if you know what I mean about the MeeGo joint venture with Nokia/Intel. | 13:47 |
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| sivang | Venemo: so "working alone on meego" not really accepted argument for me. | 13:48 |
| javispedro | so now, who thinks the Maemo/Moblin merger was a good idea after all? ;= | 13:48 |
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| sivang | javispedro: not me. | 13:49 |
| w00t | javispedro: it opened a lot of sourcecode, so it was a good thing, for the most part | 13:49 |
| w00t | the execution, not so much | 13:49 |
| javispedro | well, that's a good point. | 13:49 |
| Venemo | I gotta leave now. my condolences for MeeGo... ttyl guys. | 13:49 |
| sivang | javispedro: was one of the worst things that happened to Maemo, if to be frank IMHO. (excluding source code opened) | 13:49 |
| javispedro | cya Venemo | 13:49 |
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| SpeedEvil | Well - maemo - as it was - was not very open, but it was at least hackable. | 13:49 |
| borco | hi | 13:50 |
| sivang | moving out of the open code issue, the industry is going towards platform abstraction and app development | 13:50 |
| SpeedEvil | The closed parts were - generally - work-roundable. | 13:50 |
| w00t | maemo would still not have survived if MeeGo had not happened | 13:50 |
| Venemo | SpeedEvil, that was pre-aegis | 13:50 |
| sivang | so opening the code was nice, but if we did not have it, we'd have a proper Linux phone in mass market today by Nokia. | 13:50 |
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| sivang | for me that feels a miss. | 13:50 |
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| SpeedEvil | Venemo: True - actually - there were noises about platform security at before n900 laucnch weren't there. | 13:50 |
| sivang | and I'm all for open source, but trying not to be naive at what makes profit. | 13:50 |
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| sivang | guys, Aegis is meant to protect users in a very granular way in a crazy cyber world. Harmattan is made to be an app developer, user centric device. | 13:51 |
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| sivang | not a playground for using debian on your handset. | 13:51 |
| * DocScrutinizer goes back to his bed | 13:52 | |
| sivang | or custm kernel modules. It has different target. It finaly tries to hit mass market being based on linux, on the same terms as Android | 13:52 |
| sivang | DocScrutinizer: good call | 13:52 |
| sivang | the N900 allowed us to make coffee, but - no sane no techie people would touch it. They'd run to DRoids and iPhones. | 13:53 |
| Aard | sivang: not true, for nokia the meego.com part would have been 'the operating system after harmattan'. the harmattan delays were in no way related to meego.com | 13:53 |
| sivang | and believe me I trid hard to push N900 to non technical people | 13:53 |
| w00t | sivang: two years after release, so would I | 13:53 |
| alterego | The N9 and the N950 is probably the first phone from Nokia in quite a while that people have looked at and instantly thought, wow, I want this. I actually want this. | 13:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | sivang: for you, to ponder: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 13:53 |
| w00t | Aard: though they probably contributed to 'the operating system after harmattan's eventual fate :) | 13:54 |
| alterego | I know plenty of people that are happy with their N900s, plenty that are happy with N8s | 13:54 |
| sivang | alterego: exactly. | 13:54 |
| alterego | But most bought them due to specific requirements. | 13:54 |
| alterego | And most of my friends have Android handsets | 13:54 |
| * w00t runs off to go to town, bai | 13:54 | |
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| alterego | But even they are drouling over the N9 and my N950, yet, they can't realy get one because in the UK it'll cost an arm and a lef without carrier subsidising. | 13:55 |
| alterego | s/lef/leg/ | 13:55 |
| infobot | alterego meant: But even they are drouling over the N9 and my N950, yet, they can't realy get one because in the UK it'll cost an arm and a leg without carrier subsidising. | 13:55 |
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| elcaset | is this the aegis that was referred to above? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_(management_software) | 13:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~aegis | 13:57 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 13:57 |
| elcaset | ah. ok. thanks. | 13:58 |
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| sivang | anyway, harmattan FTW | 14:00 |
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| npm | Intel FTL? | 14:18 |
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| npm | The new os should have been called "pathos" | 14:21 |
| clbr | better "tragedy" | 14:21 |
| clbr | and the LF should change it's name to "Dead OS Foundation" | 14:22 |
| npm | "For those who use native code in their applications, the Tizen SDK will include a native development kit." --> so what is this glibc and ldd? | 14:22 |
| vmlemon_ | What will become of OFono? | 14:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | *burrrp* this all is so amusing, so entertaining | 14:24 |
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| vmlemon_ | Probably dead, now that Kernel.org's facilities are down. | 14:24 |
| * pabs3 agrees with DocScrutinizer | 14:24 | |
| DocScrutinizer | ¡ | 14:24 |
| npm | vomit-making more like it | 14:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | google ¡ or sarcasm-tag | 14:25 |
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| npm | well it could be worse. I could have decided to attend AppUp elements and help build an app on a bus-ride which would have been declared dead on arrival | 14:26 |
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| npm | i'd really be pissed if i was all the way out in washington to find out that i'd be back doing what i told myself was a dead end over 10 years ago (while launching openoffice.org and netbeans.org sites) | 14:27 |
| augustl | using html/js is clever in the sense that you don't have anything to lose by learning it. Learning QT to, say, program for MeeGo, for example, has the disadvantage of suddenly not being useful anymore since the plug was pulled on it :) | 14:27 |
| augustl | knowledge of html/js is useful even if Tizen fails | 14:28 |
| augustl | but I probably wouldn't have used QT for anything other than MeeGo dev. | 14:28 |
| npm | i have a nice HTML5ish-qt project http://code.google.com/p/qtzibit/ -- which is now dead since Qt is dead for "meego" | 14:28 |
| npm | so now i'm supposed to recode everything in some random toolkit instead of using qtwebkit? | 14:29 |
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| vmlemon_ | Heh. All that's necessary now is for HPalm to contribute bits of WebOS. | 14:29 |
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| npm | that would actually make more sense since it wouldn't be reinvengint rhe wheel just to get to where palm failed | 14:30 |
| npm | reinventing | 14:30 |
| alterego | I tweeted earlier something similar about webos | 14:31 |
| npm | also, big companies like Intel and perhaps even Nokia shouln't be in the business of writing software platforms. | 14:31 |
| npm | they should form a startup company with some hungry people to do the work | 14:31 |
| clbr | for me the question is if "html5" will allow to what you want/need or if it's only a way similar to the iOS licensing making lot's of things impossible | 14:31 |
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| npm | since the way things are done at Nokia/Intel it doesn't matter if you fail or succeed. whereas at a startup you can't screw around or shift directions that much | 14:32 |
| * vmlemon_ wonders what happened to that nifty D-BUS-based JavaScript bridge that someone released, a few years ago... | 14:32 | |
| vmlemon_ | (I think that it was from Access, or some tiny company). | 14:33 |
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| clbr | if you look at the wac members logos, i'm gettting scared | 14:33 |
| kavacha | npm: I think you are right there, if Intel and Nokia had created a MeeGo company and given it venture capitol to create a platform, I think that we would be in a different place | 14:33 |
| Arno[Slack]`Work | augustl: I do not agree, you will not be able to create optimized applications for let's say set-top box as easily as with Qt in html/js | 14:33 |
| vmlemon_ | Hmm, it looks as if it still exists, according to http://sandbox.movial.com/wiki/index.php/Browser_DBus_Bridge. | 14:33 |
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| Arno[Slack]`Work | augustl: and Qt is useful outisde this (see KDE development) | 14:34 |
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| npm | i agree Qt is useful. it's the main reason why i came to meego. | 14:34 |
| npm | and it's absense makes me want to run away | 14:35 |
| Arno[Slack]`Work | same here | 14:35 |
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| npm | and as i mentioned, they're going to be totally reinventing the wheel, and getting all nonstandard -- by trying to build DRM into HTML5 for "TV" apps | 14:35 |
| Arno[Slack]`Work | html is all but interesting to "code" with | 14:35 |
| Arno[Slack]`Work | I do real applications not rss readers or fart apps | 14:36 |
| npm | in fact at the meego conf it was clear they were hacking in that direction, doing all sorts of nonstandard crap in order to blast holes for video inside a browser | 14:36 |
| Arno[Slack]`Work | so stupid... | 14:36 |
| vmlemon_ | Mmm, nonstandard tag soup. | 14:36 |
| Arno[Slack]`Work | got to go cya later | 14:36 |
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| clbr | I wonder what Intel is intending with an announcement as empty as todays one | 14:37 |
| clbr | alienating the remaining meego crowd? | 14:37 |
| npm | drive people to other platforms? | 14:37 |
| vmlemon_ | Just when I thought that the XHTML initiative was trying to put a stop to that nonsense, the "HTML5" bandits come along and spoil things. | 14:37 |
| npm | make people stop trusting intel | 14:37 |
| RST38h | clbr: turning off the light, closing the door? | 14:37 |
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| npm | Arno[Slack]`Work: you can do interesting apps in HTML5 -- http://code.google.com/p/qtzibit/ -- however you also need Qt and QML to build decent apps | 14:38 |
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| npm | the thing is , meego as-is had all the stuff it needs to do HTML5 apps. there's absolutely no reason to shut down Qt just to promote HTML5 | 14:39 |
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| ali1234 | sorry but qml is not better than html5 when it comes to "real applications" | 14:40 |
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| npm | depends on what you want to do | 14:40 |
| npm | and i'm not saying better or worse. you need the best tool for the jb | 14:40 |
| npm | job | 14:40 |
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| ali1234 | in many ways it is worse. it has all the problems of html without the years of work put into it to make workarounds | 14:40 |
| clbr | the promise of qml was it's extendibility | 14:41 |
| npm | it's a total pain to do modern UIs in HTML5 | 14:41 |
| ali1234 | html5 and qml are both great if all you want to do is regurgitate some XML that you downloaded from the www | 14:41 |
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| npm | the kind you'd want on a touchsscreen w/ animations and transformations etc. | 14:41 |
| clbr | this could come to a html5 gui toolkit, too, but i doubt that's interest of wac members | 14:41 |
| npm | yes you can do it. but you can also program turing machines too | 14:41 |
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| vmlemon_ | They probably assume that everyone wants to write Yet Another Supermarket Locating Widget(TM). | 14:42 |
| vmlemon_ | (And nothing more complex). | 14:42 |
| clbr | npm: yeah, this was my hope, that meego finally would mainstream mobile universal turing machines | 14:42 |
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| npm | Doing UI in HTML5 is like programming a turing machine | 14:43 |
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| clbr | npm: yes, but only on the gui side | 14:44 |
| ali1234 | doing UI in HTML5 is almost exactly the same as doing it in QML | 14:44 |
| npm | that's why http://nodejs.org/ was invented. because HTML5 programming is pure retardation. | 14:44 |
| ali1234 | you have to draw all the buttons yourself | 14:44 |
| ali1234 | if you move one, it will mess up all the others | 14:44 |
| npm | ali1234: that's nonsense | 14:44 |
| ali1234 | if you resize anything, the whole page explodes | 14:44 |
| npm | where's CSS in QML? | 14:44 |
| ali1234 | rpm: did you miss the part where QML has syntax like width: 100px; which is identical to CSS, except the names are different and have subtly different meaning? | 14:45 |
| RST38h | fun, fun... | 14:45 |
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| clbr | where is your own specialised datastore in HTML/js, or networking cod? | 14:45 |
| ali1234 | which in a way is just like html, where every browser gives a subtly different meaning to the css properties | 14:45 |
| ali1234 | clbr: html5 has all that stuff | 14:46 |
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| npm | except there's only one "browser" | 14:46 |
| npm | whereas in html5 is that they're targetting only one "browser" ... | 14:46 |
| ali1234 | yes, that's the difference between qml and html5 - there's only one qmlviewer. it still has arbitrary and confusing definitons for all the properties | 14:46 |
| npm | which is not the point of HTML it' is to be browser independent | 14:47 |
| ali1234 | html has smply never been browser independent | 14:47 |
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| npm | it never has been but it is supposed to be | 14:47 |
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| ali1234 | however, if you want to look at writing a UI in html5 in a specific browser engine (lets say webkit) vs writing an application in qml in qmlviewer | 14:49 |
| Greatgib | Tizen looks to be an attack on the open governance: | 14:49 |
| Greatgib | Membership in most project teams (Release Engineering, QA, Program Management, etc.) is invite-only and will mainly be open to people at companies who are building products based on Tizen. However, Community Office, Localization, and some Middleware development teams will be open to participation on a merit basis. | 14:49 |
| ali1234 | then it looks something like this | 14:49 |
| Greatgib | its more limo taking over and burning meego to not be a concurrent | 14:49 |
| ali1234 | in html5 you have a large community of developers who have been working for years, and inredibly large amount of example code and documentation, many many development tools, and you ca even do consistent looking UI buttons if you want using forms | 14:50 |
| npm | there seems to be no open anything here. intel makes decisions behind closed doors and announced them and we are expected to dance. | 14:51 |
| ali1234 | in qml you have almost no documentation, no examples, no helpful community (because everyone is still trying to learn the damn thing) | 14:51 |
| npm | ali1234: that's nonsense | 14:51 |
| npm | i build an significant app in less than two weeks based on examples/community/etc | 14:51 |
| ali1234 | where is it? | 14:52 |
| npm | on it's way to ovi store once i finish it | 14:52 |
| ali1234 | plenty of people have built apps in qml, there are loads in ovi | 14:52 |
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| Greatgib | the question is not of not having html5 applications, it is easy to add the support of html5 applications to meego, but why do a chrome OS? | 14:52 |
| ali1234 | Greatgib: rent seeking | 14:52 |
| npm | well i build another one. except you can talk to this one. | 14:52 |
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| ali1234 | the trouble with all the qml apps i've seen is that every single one has a completely different UI due to no standards in qml | 14:53 |
| ali1234 | most of them are also extremely ugly due to the developer being forced to design the Ui themselves instead of using pre defined components | 14:53 |
| npm | same with Html5 | 14:53 |
| ali1234 | not really, because html5 at least has forms | 14:54 |
| Greatgib | ali1234: this is because qml il a work in progress, but that will be similar in html5 | 14:54 |
| npm | every designer goes wild with some dancing crap and transparent this-that and next thing you can't even figure out what's clickable | 14:54 |
| ali1234 | and html forms are themed like the OS on every browser ever | 14:54 |
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| npm | um wow. forms. that's like, what, 1995? | 14:54 |
| ali1234 | yes, it is true that most designers of html5 apps make a bad and inconsistent UI | 14:54 |
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| ali1234 | but in qml - YOU HAVE NO CHOICE | 14:54 |
| ali1234 | there is nothing else you can do | 14:55 |
| ali1234 | the alternative in qml is for every developer to spend weeks reproducing the look of the OS buttons etc | 14:55 |
| npm | ever tried doing form validation in html5? | 14:55 |
| ali1234 | yes, actually, it is extremely easy? | 14:55 |
| npm | only if you do it badly | 14:55 |
| ali1234 | form validation is a solved problem since about 1998 | 14:55 |
| npm | for simple data. | 14:56 |
| pabs3 | clbr: SLP/LiMo board/members were/is similar | 14:56 |
| ali1234 | if by "simple" you mean "able to be represented by a javascript object" then yes | 14:56 |
| npm | well what if half the state of the js object is on the server | 14:57 |
| ali1234 | then your app is badly designed | 14:57 |
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| npm | no your are talking about simple web apps | 14:57 |
| ali1234 | why are youasking the frontend to validate things on the server? | 14:57 |
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| ali1234 | who ever cares about apps that rely on some internet service somewhere? | 14:58 |
| npm | try doing something like gmail (or like i did 10+ years ago) openoffice.org or netbeans.org | 14:58 |
| npm | ali1234: ever heard of google? | 14:59 |
| ali1234 | are you talking about the same gmail that is done entirely in html and is one of the best web apps ever made, and the one that finally showed people it could be done? | 14:59 |
| ali1234 | or google docs etc? | 14:59 |
| npm | yeah. have you looked at the infrastructure needed to build these apps? it's a hell of a lot more complicated that Qt | 14:59 |
| ali1234 | only because it has to be cross browser | 15:00 |
| npm | and a giant pain in the ass to work with | 15:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | hey, congrats: now everybody bin&rewrite all their stuff the 5th time in 2 years, to keep up with the ever-changing promise of a framework to avoid exactly that XP | 15:00 |
| npm | no it generates bad application architecture | 15:00 |
| npm | which again is why node-js was invented. | 15:00 |
| npm | to be slightly less architecturally convoluted | 15:00 |
| Greatgib | ali1234: so explain me why a lot of people continue to use things like thunderbird? | 15:00 |
| ali1234 | hahaha | 15:00 |
| ali1234 | Greatgib: sorry but i cannot explain why people chose to use horrible broken software and slow software like thunderbird | 15:01 |
| Greatgib | ali1234: start to use gmail for thousands of messages and not juste reading your last news on it. | 15:02 |
| npm | so why should I bother with MeeGo when I could just do ChromeOS and not be jerked around so many times in so few years? | 15:02 |
| ali1234 | Greatgib: i do. my gmail inbox is so big that it crashes thunderbird | 15:02 |
| npm | at least i trust their HTML implementation to not be completely bozonic | 15:02 |
| ali1234 | actually it crashes most email readers | 15:03 |
| npm | as opposed to something newfangled and full of bugs, 5 years late, that hopes to do what chromeOS already does? | 15:03 |
| ali1234 | "newfangled and full of bugs" -> qml | 15:03 |
| Greatgib | ali1234: do you try to open your gmail inbox with imap? why not try a normal native imap server? | 15:03 |
| ali1234 | Greatgib: no, i use imap | 15:03 |
| * npm wonders if Leo Apotheker got a job at Intel and made this decision | 15:04 | |
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| Greatgib | ali1234: anyway, why don't you use chromeOS as it is everything that you need? | 15:04 |
| ali1234 | Greatgib: right right | 15:04 |
| ali1234 | Greatgib: since html5 is better than qml is must be perfect for all apps | 15:04 |
| npm | but why would anybody give a crap about this new "mee too" platform when google's got the story all lined up for desktop/tablet/tv etc? | 15:05 |
| ali1234 | it can't possibly be the case that html5 vs qml is a choice between two things which are almost exactly as terrible as each other, with html5 slightly winning because at least it's been around for a while and people understand the problems it has and how to work around them | 15:05 |
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| npm | so by that token people shouldn't have been working on MacOSX and just kept on working on windows since it's been around and people understand its problems. | 15:06 |
| ali1234 | have you ever used mac os x? | 15:06 |
| npm | companies like Intel are supposed to lead, not follow | 15:06 |
| npm | ali1234: of course i have | 15:06 |
| npm | have you noticed apple's stock price? or the fact that it has more cash reserves than the US government? | 15:07 |
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| ali1234 | who cares? | 15:07 |
| ali1234 | that does not make me want to use it | 15:07 |
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| npm | no, but with your attitude, that winner never would have been built because "people understood the problems" with Windows | 15:08 |
| ali1234 | have you noticed how rich and popular macdonalds is? yet their product is extremely poor quality | 15:08 |
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| ali1234 | there is no argument beyond freedom of choice for why their existence is good for humanity as a whole | 15:09 |
| npm | someone has to take a stand 10 years before the biz-people start falling all over themselves and say "this technology will win independent of what beancounters and naysayers say" | 15:09 |
| Greatgib | ali1234: like for gmail, a lot of people like to eat at macdonalds. americains love it very much! | 15:09 |
| topro | is it just me? still yesterday everybody told me that QML is the future cause its such a great thing, today everyone just bashes it?!? | 15:09 |
| ali1234 | topro: well, i didn't tell you that, i've been bashing it for 6 months | 15:09 |
| npm | I still think it's grreat | 15:09 |
| topro | ali1234: gg | 15:10 |
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| MiskaX | i'll keep on using it since it works great for large datamodels + kinetic scrolling | 15:11 |
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| npm | also, so what does this all mean for the meego tablet-ux ? abandoned?: | 15:12 |
| topro | I'd say meego itself got abandoned, no more tablet, no more ux. its all tizen now | 15:12 |
| clbr | I think we should get comfortable with the fact that technological "progress" device-wise doesn't mean getting more powerful stuff in the coming years and instead concentrate on improving what we have. forking meego | 15:14 |
| clbr | I already decided not to invest anymore in apple software/hardware, as the system I have is already working great | 15:14 |
| clbr | and buy an N9 and stick with it for the next years | 15:15 |
| RST38h | clbr: I think you mistake consumption for investment | 15:15 |
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| RST38h | clbr: Investment is when you sell your Apple kit with a markup | 15:16 |
| berndhs | what's the point of meego without the UX ? | 15:16 |
| npm | i'll just hold onto my n950 since i dont buy stuff | 15:16 |
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| npm | berndhs: what's the point period. | 15:18 |
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| borco | npm: untill nokia decides you have to give it back :P | 15:20 |
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| clbr | i invest into production tools | 15:22 |
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| chouchoune | will there be the planned 1.3 release for end of october ? | 15:23 |
| Stskeeps | doubt it | 15:24 |
| npm | ali1234: btw the main thing you miss between HTML5/CSS and QML is the declarative nature of the "css-like" bindings in QML | 15:25 |
| ali1234 | "declarative" doesn't mean a damn thing | 15:25 |
| npm | sure it does | 15:25 |
| npm | it means you don't have to write property watchers on everything | 15:25 |
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| npm | it means that changes forward-chain through the UI | 15:26 |
| npm | in a logically consistent fashion | 15:26 |
| berndhs | the main thing I miss in html5 is not having a C++ interface that I can change | 15:26 |
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| ali1234 | "logically consistent" is not the way i would describe qml | 15:26 |
| npm | basically QML/Qt is everything i hoped for when i build http://nielsmayer.com/winterp/ back in the late-80's early 90's | 15:27 |
| npm | except that it's all grown up | 15:27 |
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| npm | html and css have consistently been the "worse is better" solution and that goes back to my idiot coworker marc andreesen adding the <blink> tag | 15:28 |
| npm | or insisting that javascript have three values of null | 15:28 |
| Venemo | npm, wtf? | 15:29 |
| npm | well andreesen insisted that javascript have java syntax, even though that doesn't make a lot of sense for a purely dynamic language | 15:30 |
| npm | so you get all sorts of weirdness in logic w/ 0 versus null versus undefined etc | 15:31 |
| ali1234 | only if you misuse the type system | 15:32 |
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| npm | andreesen also thought that html needed a <BLINK> tag | 15:32 |
| npm | nuff said | 15:32 |
| ali1234 | and you know why? | 15:33 |
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| ali1234 | because all the previous information delivery systems that came before it also had it | 15:33 |
| npm | like i said, worse is better | 15:33 |
| ali1234 | except that it isn't worse, it is equally as bad | 15:33 |
| npm | no it's worse | 15:34 |
| npm | it really is quite stupid at all levels, even transport. | 15:34 |
| inz | \e[5m | 15:34 |
| npm | plaintext instead of asn.1 ... hundreds of connections instead of one? | 15:34 |
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| ali1234 | lol both those problems were fixed in about 1998 along with everything else you have complained about so far | 15:35 |
| npm | they weren't fixed. | 15:35 |
| npm | most browsers still don't use http 1.1 | 15:35 |
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| npm | although i can't find that article right now and just saw "same web hosting company reported that by June 1996, 65% of all browsers accessing their servers were HTTP/1.1 compliant" | 15:37 |
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| npm | i believe it was jim gettys who mentioned the http1.1 issue: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CC8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmirrors.bufferbloat.net%2FTalks%2FBellLabs01192011%2F110126140926_BufferBloat12.pdf&rct=j&q=http%201.1%20adoption%20dark%20buffers%20on&ei=IxWDTv3vOM3WiAK_pbSVDQ&usg=AFQjCNE79lnFoVWDJp-uWcx6yJI3lJIgoQ&sig2=Vo5hMe8wzU01w-xIwg3Avw&cad=rja | 15:38 |
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| ali1234 | i think we can both agree that writing apps in html without using jquery or node-js or whatever is extremely annoying | 15:38 |
| npm | yes | 15:38 |
| ali1234 | the problem is that qml has not matured enough to have frameworks that make using it simple | 15:39 |
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| ali1234 | in about 10 years when that happens qml will be usable for the average developer | 15:39 |
| npm | but there's qt mobiliity. versus reinventing the wheel for html | 15:39 |
| npm | from management's point of view it's just a different turning machine for the trogs to bash their brains against... | 15:40 |
| ali1234 | what do you mean "reinventing the wheel" | 15:40 |
| ali1234 | html5 had all that stuff before qml did | 15:40 |
| ali1234 | qml is the thing that is reinventing the wheel | 15:41 |
| * dm8tbr puts his white/grey/black hats on and ponders - this is totally pure awesome, now I'll be able to hack people's mobilephones using a website. call premium numbers, snap their pictures, ... | 15:41 | |
| npm | but it's alread reinvented. people have been programming w/ it. perhaps if it gets to the point where i can write the same HTML 5 mobile app on ipone and "intel/samsung" it'll be worth it... | 15:42 |
| ali1234 | well one thing's for sure, you'll *never* be able to do that with qml | 15:42 |
| ali1234 | not unless someone makes a tool that turns qml into html5 + a server somewhere running qt | 15:42 |
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| ali1234 | which probably would be quite easy | 15:42 |
| chouchoune | ali1234: what ??? | 15:43 |
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| chouchoune | ok, let's QML away from the perspective | 15:43 |
| Venemo | html5 is ridiculous | 15:43 |
| chouchoune | how far would we be away from being able to serve Qt HTML5 components instead of QML ones ? | 15:43 |
| chouchoune | that would make sense | 15:43 |
| chouchoune | but HTML5 only is bullshit | 15:43 |
| chouchoune | we should handle the logic with Javascript ? | 15:44 |
| chouchoune | how about power consuming things | 15:44 |
| chouchoune | how about openGL stuff ? | 15:44 |
| chouchoune | will we use WebGL ? | 15:44 |
| chouchoune | beurk | 15:44 |
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| ali1234 | webgl is exactly the same as normal opengl | 15:45 |
| ali1234 | to the point where it's not really useful for anything because it is too low level | 15:45 |
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| Sazpaimon | So when does the mass exodus from #meego to #tizen begin | 15:54 |
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| gabrbedd | um... should I have joined #tizen ?? | 16:00 |
| Greatgib | The linux foundation page give the final word: tizen is limo: | 16:00 |
| Greatgib | http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/announcements/2011/09/limo-foundation-and-linux-foundation-announce-new-open-source-softw | 16:00 |
| Greatgib | Tizen combines the best open source technologies from LiMo and The Linux Foundation and adds a robust and flexible standards-based HTML5 and WAC web development environment within which device-independent applications can be produced efficiently for unconstrained cross-platform deployment. | 16:01 |
| Sazpaimon | so then, the entire meego codebase is abandoned | 16:01 |
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| Sazpaimon | all the time intel put pushing people to use Qt and develop cutting edge Qt apps for mobile and tablet, gone to waste | 16:02 |
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| gabrbedd | Is it clear, yet, whether Qt/QML has a place in Tizen? | 16:03 |
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| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: prolly not banning, but not part of platform | 16:04 |
| gabrbedd | :-( | 16:04 |
| npm | yeah i agree :-( | 16:05 |
| gabrbedd | Well, it's been phun working with you guys. | 16:05 |
| npm | :-( | 16:05 |
| gabrbedd | Native is dead. Long live native! | 16:05 |
| Sazpaimon | consider it like how us maemo users had to transition from gtk to Qt | 16:05 |
| Stskeeps | hey, at least its not gtk ;) | 16:05 |
| Sazpaimon | now you feel our pain | 16:05 |
| berndhs | so if tizen uses the same "compliance" strategy, and you want a Qt-based app, you ship all of Qt with it | 16:05 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: +1 | 16:05 |
| Sazpaimon | what OS is LiMo based off of anyway | 16:06 |
| npm | actually that might be better. since meego insists on shipping buggy versions of qt and mobility | 16:06 |
| Greatgib | gabrbedd: the sad thing is not to loose qt or just to have to hack to have qt, but that Tizen will not be based on the open governance like MeeGo should be, but more on the LiMo closed dev model :( | 16:06 |
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| npm | but doesn't that mean all apps have to be gpl'd to ship qt for free? | 16:07 |
| Aard | npm: qt is lgpl | 16:07 |
| Stskeeps | what open governance.. | 16:07 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:07 |
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| javispedro | touché. | 16:07 |
| berndhs | what governance | 16:07 |
| iekku | haha | 16:07 |
| florian | Stskeeps: Well... sure about GTK? GTK has a backend creating html5 now :-) | 16:08 |
| npm | that to me seems like the biggest lose is those that planned on delivering apps on meego with qt now need to pay qt license fees? | 16:08 |
| npm | e.g. for qt mobility etc | 16:08 |
| javispedro | npm, what are you saying now? =) | 16:08 |
| Aard | npm: again, qt is lgpl. as is mobility | 16:09 |
| jarom | why should they pay license fees? qt is lgpl | 16:09 |
| florian | Stskeeps: scnr - please do not take too serious. | 16:09 |
| npm | so what instances do people need to use the product qt then. say if delivering a automotive app ? | 16:09 |
| berndhs | you can statically link to Qt and ship the whole thinkg, its not a legal issue, its just stupidly wasteful | 16:09 |
| Greatgib | Stskeeps: that's true, but you were legitimate to ask for code source before release with meego because it was in the project concepts, now with tizen they will told you to go fuck yourself :( | 16:09 |
| npm | or a game or video platform with DRM etc? | 16:10 |
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| Stskeeps | Greatgib: heh | 16:11 |
| berndhs | more likely they won't even ignore you | 16:13 |
| iekku | it needs attention to ignore? | 16:13 |
| iekku | berndhs, morning, btw | 16:14 |
| berndhs | morning iekku | 16:14 |
| iekku | (trying if berndhs acts like pavlov dog :P) | 16:14 |
| berndhs | :) | 16:14 |
| iekku | test case: failed | 16:14 |
| berndhs | clock says it is morning here | 16:15 |
| iekku | [#meego] | 16:15 |
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| iekku | copy paste.... | 16:15 |
| iekku | this laptops pad is little bit too sensitive | 16:15 |
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| pabs3 | http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3070/tizen.jpg | 16:18 |
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| * RST38h searches Wiki for Lavcraftian monsters named "Tizen" | 16:19 | |
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| javispedro | RST38h, someone has found out it means "two asses" in lebanese | 16:20 |
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| RST38h | Is there such a thing as "lebanese"? =) | 16:21 |
| pabs3 | yes | 16:21 |
| hiemanshu | lol | 16:21 |
| pabs3 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese | 16:21 |
| javispedro | http://twitter.com/#!/khouryrt/status/119016646483525634 <-- original source | 16:22 |
| berndhs | so does this refer to Lebanese cuisine then ? | 16:23 |
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| javispedro | berndhs, keep reading | 16:23 |
| javispedro | berndhs, actually, go back one item | 16:23 |
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| berndhs | i know the quote | 16:23 |
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| npm | two asses can't make an eagle? | 16:24 |
| npm | but there will be a mighty fluttering sound of ass-cheecks | 16:24 |
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| Lampus_ | One question. If I have phone with working linux kernel from android, what I should do to porting MeeGo on this device? Some docs? | 16:27 |
| vmlemon_ | pabs3: I was hoping that someone would pick up on the Scottish soft drink connection. :) | 16:27 |
| pabs3 | vmlemon_: talk.maemo.org to the rescue | 16:28 |
| SpeedEvil | Lampus_: I would guess at #meego-ce | 16:28 |
| Sage | SpeedEvil: you mean #meego-arm? | 16:28 |
| SpeedEvil | I don't know | 16:29 |
| SpeedEvil | probably | 16:29 |
| SpeedEvil | I've not woken up today yet | 16:29 |
| Lampus_ | =\ | 16:29 |
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| vmlemon_ | Tarzan! | 16:31 |
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| vmlemon_ | (Obviously the Mono-based implementation). | 16:32 |
| jargon- | battling my plone installation all day and when i come up for air i see "meego is dead"? wtf? | 16:33 |
| jargon- | wtf? | 16:33 |
| Stskeeps | MeeGo is dead, long live Mer! | 16:33 |
| Stskeeps | er, wrong timeline | 16:33 |
| jargon- | this is the type of sh*t that always happens when i think to myself "this day cannot possibly get any worse" | 16:34 |
| Jucato | Mer^2! (right?) | 16:34 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps, yet | 16:34 |
| Stskeeps | MeeGo is dead, long live Tizen! | 16:34 |
| * dm8tbr couldn't care less about tizen | 16:34 | |
| jarom | Lampus_: you should ask powervr to provide you linux drivers for their gpu | 16:34 |
| tazz | old | 16:34 |
| javispedro | maybe the new qt-project could fork and adopt Meego and call it... Qtopia or something | 16:34 |
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| luist | hey guys.. can meego identify when i need a plugin/codec to play some kind of unknown media and install the codec? | 16:35 |
| npm | so what happens to the manufacturers that recently announced meego netbooks? | 16:35 |
| javispedro | nothing? | 16:35 |
| npm | i'd imagine they get support still and that meego repos wouldn't disappear overnight right? | 16:36 |
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| npm | of course it's clear that meego stopped being worked on over the summer just by volume http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-releases/ | 16:37 |
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| npm | 40K 20k 13k 1k | 16:38 |
| npm | i guess those calling the sf meego conf a funeral were correct | 16:39 |
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| Stskeeps | dm8tbr: so you'd be happy with a mer sharing some packages? :P | 16:39 |
| Aard | Stskeeps: yep, fork off mer, and I'll continue my 'full distribution' stuff on top of that ;) | 16:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: HAHAHA good one | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | (qtopia) | 16:43 |
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| eg81 | Stskeeps: mer looks to me much easier to buld and use than meego (with tousands of packages in core), go mer go! :) | 16:43 |
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| Stskeeps | lets see how things turn out | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | i can see good benefit in sharing effort | 16:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | the balkanization of embedded linux. Sure an entertaining thing to watch | 16:45 |
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| vmlemon_ | At the rate that things are going, I bet that Android will be the only thing remotely resembling "mobile Linux", soon. | 16:48 |
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| Greatgib | eg81: would it be possible with mer to have a fork of meego that support all the types of devices or is this version too much dependant on handset? | 16:49 |
| dm8tbr | Stskeeps: sure, but I'm not going to directly support some closed-open-source project | 16:50 |
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| vmlemon_ | Until Nokia mauled it, the only other real "open" choice was Symbian, so it seemed. | 16:50 |
| ali1234 | npm: i knew there was something up when my bug reports stopped getting closed "WORKSFORME" and "WONTFIX" | 16:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | ali1234: :-D | 16:51 |
| javispedro | I guess it's now the right time to talk about the GPLv3 vs Meego issue! | 16:52 |
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| ali1234 | "hey maybe it will actually get fixed now" | 16:52 |
| ali1234 | 3 months later "oh" | 16:52 |
| khertan | javispedro: which one ? | 16:52 |
| eg81 | Greatgib: with Mer it could be possible, as it is only base (~300 packages), and you can add additional adaptation packages aswell, but as Stskeeps said "lets see how things turn out" | 16:52 |
| khertan | eg81: i think we wait too much | 16:52 |
| ali1234 | i think we wait too much too | 16:52 |
| javispedro | Fixed in Fremantle^W Harmattan^W Meego^W Tizen^W | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro++ | 16:53 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: random question: what would it take to get unity-2d running on wayland? | 16:53 |
| topro | i wonder what ivi staff is going to do now. in automotive world its not so easy to switch from one os to another I think, now where they commited to meego-ivi | 16:53 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: (unity-2d being all qt) | 16:53 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: check how it works with lighthouse | 16:54 |
| ali1234 | and by running i mean usable as a real desktop with window management etc | 16:54 |
| javispedro | khertan, meego's avoidance of GPLv3 packages | 16:54 |
| npm | yep versus DRM issues, for example http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-860846.html | 16:55 |
| npm | http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=2331 | 16:56 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: would mer be a good base system to try this on? | 16:56 |
| khertan | javispedro: excuse me, but i didn't see where is the problem | 16:56 |
| robsta | topro: who committed to meego-ivi? | 16:56 |
| javispedro | khertan, see forum.meego link above | 16:56 |
| khertan | javispedro: really, i 'm just didn't know | 16:56 |
| khertan | javispedro: thx | 16:56 |
| npm | linux kernel is gplv2 due to drm: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=105115686114064&w=2 | 16:57 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: prolly | 16:57 |
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| khertan | javispedro: i didn't understand what s the problem with gplv3 | 16:58 |
| npm | those are links for a post on gplv3 in meego that i never posted as i didn't have time for a flamewar | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | topro: good point | 16:59 |
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| topro | robsta: the companies belonging to genivi alliance?!? | 17:04 |
| javispedro | Slashdot headline, obviously, is "Intel drops Meego". | 17:05 |
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| Greatgib | javispedro: exactly, a colleague cried to me through the open space: "Eh, you saw the news, intel dropped meego" | 17:07 |
| Greatgib | that was slashdot... | 17:07 |
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| khertan | Greatgib: it s not far from reallity | 17:09 |
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| rburton | if i had to summarise the tizan thing in three words, it would be something like "intel drops meego" | 17:15 |
| rburton | intel not working on meego any more, takes a new direction | 17:15 |
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| jedix | well, now that it's not called meego it means everyone will use it and be uber happy for the next 1.5 years | 17:18 |
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| jedix | will <next distro here> use obs? | 17:19 |
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| jedix | I'd summarise Tizen in three words with "two more years." | 17:22 |
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| Stskeeps | jedix: yes | 17:23 |
| jedix | I bet it'll start to look good and get canned | 17:23 |
| jedix | for html5++ | 17:23 |
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| jedix | and why in gods name would you follow microsofts lead on windows8/tablet to use html5? they don't even have a measurable market share | 17:24 |
| crashanddie | haha, now ya'll know what it feels like to be abandoned by the corp that backed your project! Mwhuahahahahaha. --an @op in #maemo. | 17:25 |
| jedix | haha | 17:25 |
| jedix | wait.. I've had other jobs. | 17:25 |
| jedix | what is genivi going to do? | 17:26 |
| alterego | Hah | 17:27 |
| khertan | crashanddie: ...yeah they also kill my business plan | 17:27 |
| alterego | jedix: WebOS was there first :P | 17:28 |
| crashanddie | khertan, if you still had a business plan that involved anything Nokia touched, and open source in the same project, then you deserve to suffer. | 17:28 |
| khertan | using html5 only ? iphone1 was the first | 17:28 |
| khertan | crashanddie: there was meego / open source ... | 17:28 |
| crashanddie | my point exactly. | 17:29 |
| Greatgib | khertan: yes this will certainly be the case but I hope not :( | 17:29 |
| crashanddie | It's time people stopped being idiots when it comes to HTML5 applications. | 17:29 |
| Greatgib | crashanddie: html5 is the buzz word of the year | 17:30 |
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| khertan | crashanddie: now i ll reorient on python / gtk ... as they will probably suicide qt too | 17:30 |
| khertan | crashanddie: what do you mean ? | 17:30 |
| crashanddie | It says it in the name: HyperText Markup Language. It is not a programming language, and it will never be. It will suffer a thousand hurdles trying to be something funky, and will fall short (because every major corporation will try to patent it, make it proprietary). | 17:31 |
| crashanddie | If you want to develop for a device, just use the bloody language they offer. If they offer more than one, or the same language is available on more than one device, bonus, if not, suck it up. | 17:31 |
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| ^iain^ | crashanddie: thats what javascript is for | 17:32 |
| crashanddie | But stop thinking that some pseudo language will ever solve your issues. | 17:32 |
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| ^iain^ | QML wasnt a programming language either | 17:32 |
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| khertan | no qml is a declarative markup to build ui | 17:34 |
| khertan | with horrible js packed inside | 17:35 |
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| npm | i think qml is awesome | 17:44 |
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| crashanddie | khertan, ca a qml la merde... (ca accumule la merde) | 17:44 |
| npm | sure there's things that could be better, but html5 and nondeclarative is a big step back | 17:44 |
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| khertan | crashanddie: yep | 17:45 |
| npm | you actually need the "pseudo language" as glue. the nice thing is that it's easy to implement primitives in C++ | 17:45 |
| khertan | crashanddie: ceci dit .... no hope in future | 17:45 |
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| TSCHAKeee | I want | 17:47 |
| TSCHAKeee | to fucking cry. | 17:47 |
| TSCHAKeee | the whole world has gone bullshit bonkers | 17:47 |
| wmarone | heh | 17:47 |
| npm | yep | 17:47 |
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| TSCHAKeee | what is this magic glue to connect hardware to the HTML5 layer? | 17:47 |
| rburton | in the immortal words of mr winner, calm down. | 17:47 |
| rburton | meego isn't dead | 17:48 |
| rburton | you can carry on using meego if you want | 17:48 |
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| TSCHAKeee | what is this magic glue to connect hardware to the HTML5 layer? | 17:48 |
| rburton | TSCHAKeee: the magic glue is the engine that renders the html | 17:48 |
| rburton | and has the JS VM in | 17:48 |
| jedix | yeah.. you just need to support an entire distro yourself. | 17:48 |
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| rburton | jedix: debian is community maintained | 17:48 |
| jedix | TSCHAKeee: magic | 17:48 |
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| pabs3 | jedix: plenty of other distros to merge with | 17:48 |
| rburton | no big corporation supporting that, seems to work fo them | 17:48 |
| berndhs | rburton: how do I open an SSL socket to some address in HTML5 ? | 17:49 |
| jedix | rburton: and it moves very quickly. | 17:49 |
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| TSCHAKeee | on top of all of this | 17:49 |
| rburton | berndhs: you hope that the JS API has low-level socket support | 17:49 |
| rburton | berndhs: if it doesn't you investigate the native api options | 17:49 |
| berndhs | rburton: yeah, i hope | 17:50 |
| TSCHAKeee | I'm furious that the entire open governance model just completely collapsed without so much as a, "We're sorry." | 17:50 |
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| rburton | i.e. i know that webos lets its html/js applications ship native code "plugins" | 17:50 |
| pabs3 | rburton: any chance of a fix for the RC bug on dates in Debian? | 17:50 |
| rburton | pabs3: honestly, package removal is probably best | 17:50 |
| rburton | pabs3: unless you want to maintain it upstream | 17:51 |
| araujo | berndhs, http://www.phonegap.com/ could help you there | 17:51 |
| araujo | it takes native API up to the HTML5 layer | 17:51 |
| pabs3 | rburton: there might be someone who might want to do that actually | 17:51 |
| pabs3 | rburton: lindi- on #openmoko-debian | 17:52 |
| Greatgib | TSCHAKeee: that's the worse point from my point of view. Whatever will be Tizen, I have not good expectation as it comes without concertation | 17:52 |
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| rburton | pabs3: oh my god is moko still going | 17:52 |
| pabs3 | rburton: of course :) | 17:52 |
| rburton | i think moko and moblin are now tied for UI restarts | 17:53 |
| pabs3 | rburton: still no kernel in Debian though :( | 17:53 |
| TSCHAKeee | basically, after seeing this process go boom twice now | 17:53 |
| TSCHAKeee | I'm convinced that the people governing this body are complete idiots | 17:53 |
| wmarone | Well, Nokia are completely gone now at least | 17:53 |
| rburton | TSCHAKeee: so nominate yourself as a replacement in the meego governance, i presume intel is pulling out | 17:53 |
| berndhs | funny, phonegap doesn't list a network API | 17:54 |
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| dos1 | pabs3: there's no more "UI restarts" in Openmoko, as om distro is now dead and and Om Inc. moved away from phones | 17:54 |
| pabs3 | dos1: rburton said that not me :) | 17:54 |
| dos1 | pabs3: but there's still active community around it | 17:54 |
| berndhs | I also find it interesting that the Liniux Foundation has no interest in open governance | 17:55 |
| dos1 | pabs3: which is far more important than company itself | 17:55 |
| pabs3 | dos1: indeed. do you know if the kernel/u-boot patches will ever go upstream? | 17:55 |
| TSCHAKeee | rburton: I'm done with Moblin/MeeGo/Maemo/etc... 5 years of this bullshit of trying to build a research platform on an open system so I could do domotics research on my own terms... (on top of 10 years before that going other routes...) | 17:56 |
| pabs3 | rburton: can you join #openmoko-debian, lindi- is asking what calendar software you use on your phone if not dates | 17:56 |
| rburton | TSCHAKeee: debian :) | 17:56 |
| dos1 | pabs3: don't know about u-boot, but i know that kernel patches are being rebased and getting ready to merging all the time | 17:56 |
| dos1 | pabs3: slowly, but they are :) | 17:56 |
| TSCHAKeee | rburton: it takes Debian 47,000 years to decide _ANYTHING_ | 17:56 |
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| damien_l | berndhs: out of interest what do you what that network API for? it seems that actually quite a few web sites/application manager to communitcate these days, say, the GTalk client for instance | 17:57 |
| robsta | TSCHAKeee: what are you depending on, in your platform | 17:57 |
| rburton | TSCHAKeee: so? if you need a base platform that doesn't matter. stable is good too :) | 17:57 |
| pabs3 | dos1: I heard glamo was the last hold-out? so 3.2 we can expect a mainline kernel to run? | 17:57 |
| berndhs | damien_l: i want to talk to other devices in my own protocols | 17:57 |
| jedix | debian also happens to be really old and started when there wasn't 100s of distros.. it reached critical mass | 17:57 |
| dos1 | pabs3: i don't know details (i'm working rather on userspace), but that's possible :) | 17:57 |
| damien_l | berndhs: then websockets? | 17:57 |
| pabs3 | dos1: wow, that would be surprising and awesome. after 3 years of owning a FR I had almost given up | 17:58 |
| berndhs | damien_l: not servers, I want to talk directly to the other device, host-to-host | 17:58 |
| berndhs | damien_l: open socket, send data | 17:58 |
| dos1 | pabs3: about openmoko community: there is also active GTA04 project by Golden Delicious | 17:59 |
| rburton | berndhs: i suspect worse case is that you write a custom extension for the JS library | 17:59 |
| dos1 | pabs3: OMAP based phone in FR's case | 17:59 |
| damien_l | berndhs: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#peer-to-peer | 18:00 |
| pabs3 | dos1: well aware of that. not going to touch it when they want to do idiotic things like this to get FSF PR: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/FirmwareInjector/ | 18:00 |
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| berndhs | damien_l: i dont (always) have domain names, I just want addresses | 18:03 |
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| berndhs | but from my personal point of view, I'm not waiting another 18 months to see if tizen does anything useful | 18:04 |
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| Sazpaimon | all I want to know is | 18:05 |
| Sazpaimon | WHOS COMMIN WITH ME MAN | 18:05 |
| berndhs | and I do not want to run applications in browsers, that's just stupid | 18:05 |
| Sazpaimon | WHOS COMMIN WITH ME | 18:05 |
| harbaum | on the positive side: You can now use the meego brand name as you like and noone will complain | 18:05 |
| ^iain^ | no you can't | 18:05 |
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| harbaum | ah ... ok | 18:05 |
| harbaum | who will complain? | 18:06 |
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| Sazpaimon | Intel | 18:06 |
| Sazpaimon | and the Linux Foundation | 18:06 |
| pabs3 | Sazpaimon: where you goin? | 18:06 |
| damien_l | berndhs: the reality is that the web has become *the* platform, wether you like it or not (I don't like the platform as a developer, but that's beside the point) | 18:06 |
| ^iain^ | its still a registered trademark of the linux foundation | 18:06 |
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| rburton | berndhs: you're not running apps in a browser | 18:06 |
| pabs3 | damien_l: I don't like the platform at all (user, dev) | 18:07 |
| rburton | berndhs: its the same model as webos, the entire shell is a html/js engine | 18:07 |
| berndhs | rburton: i dont want my applications delivered as a service either | 18:07 |
| markatto | no more QT? | 18:07 |
| Sazpaimon | Just like you can't use the firefox name and logo if you modify their source | 18:07 |
| berndhs | rburton: so the shell is a browser, what's the difference ? | 18:07 |
| rburton | berndhs: thats good because they are not online too | 18:07 |
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| Sazpaimon | because Mozilla has both of them trademarked | 18:07 |
| berndhs | rburton: you renamed the browser to "shell" | 18:07 |
| rburton | berndhs: a browser has history, bookmarks, url bar. | 18:08 |
| ^iain^ | an ability to browse | 18:08 |
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| ^iain^ | ? | 18:08 |
| rburton | berndhs: the only relationship is that they both can render stuff and both use js | 18:08 |
| berndhs | rburton: its the same engine, cut the crap | 18:08 |
| rburton | berndhs: sure. does that make gnome3 a browser because it embeds a js engine? | 18:08 |
| berndhs | rburton: this is marketing talk, or propaganda if you prefer, don't expect me to believe that | 18:08 |
| ^iain^ | we have a winner | 18:09 |
| rburton | berndhs: using html for layout and js for logic does not imply "web browser" or "service" | 18:09 |
| Sazpaimon | rburton, I keep reading your name as rburchell and confusing you with w00t | 18:09 |
| rburton | again, webos apps are local files | 18:09 |
| ^iain^ | rburton: you're a liar! we see through your lies | 18:09 |
| rburton | ^iain^: i'm an evil commie lier | 18:09 |
| krh | berndhs: it's similar to meego-qml-launcher, it uses a declarative markup language and js, can be extended with plugins, or local web servers | 18:10 |
| rburton | and evil commie liar who can't spell | 18:10 |
| ^iain^ | rburton: you've been caught in WEB of your own making | 18:10 |
| rburton | krh: yeah, qml is a much better comparison | 18:10 |
| krh | everything an app needs can be installed on the device | 18:10 |
| berndhs | rburton: ^iain^: redefining words to suit your current marketing strategy is very popular, I realize that | 18:10 |
| rburton | ^iain^: nice, i see what you did there | 18:10 |
| ^iain^ | berndhs: ok, you're a dick | 18:10 |
| krh | including plugins to the html5 engine or local web servers | 18:10 |
| ^iain^ | (where dick means really nice guy) | 18:10 |
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| iekku | what's happening? | 18:12 |
| rburton | iekku: RUN FOR THE HILLS | 18:12 |
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| iekku | rburton, please, try to behave? | 18:13 |
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| Greatgib | I see the good side of the news: 2000 unread mails from meego-dev that i will not have to read :D | 18:13 |
| damien_l | berndhs: you're being difficult really, if you don't want to use the web technologies, just don't use them, use socket(). For instance, I write C for a living and have no plan to change that, I really don't want to write HTML apps, and yet it HTML apps as first citizen is the best thing that can happen for you platform | 18:13 |
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| damien_l | I'm sure people realize how much time they spend inside the web browser | 18:14 |
| berndhs | damien_l: i'm not being difficult, Intel is, by changing horses too often | 18:14 |
| * markatto would much rather write in python+QT than html+JS | 18:14 | |
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| jedix | lol | 18:17 |
| jedix | http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3070/tizen.jpg | 18:17 |
| damien_l | berndhs: sure, you can have the last word with that, no problem | 18:17 |
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| rburton | iekku: was being satirical , should have used a smilie | 18:19 |
| iekku | :P | 18:19 |
| ali1234 | jedix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTtDUSMJ8o | 18:19 |
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| ^iain^ | rburton: this is no time for satire! this is time for righteous indignation! | 18:20 |
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| pabs3 | slashdot headline is "Intel Drops MeeGo" | 18:38 |
| ali1234 | ...which is exactly correct | 18:38 |
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| jargon- | weird. i'm banned from #meego-dev. even though i've never entered that channel before | 18:38 |
| jargon- | how do i address this issue? | 18:39 |
| wmarone | #meego-dev was closed ages ago, I think | 18:39 |
| the-boss | wmarone: Error: "meego-dev" is not a valid command. | 18:39 |
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| ali1234 | you dont | 18:39 |
| ali1234 | #meego-dev does not exist it forwards here | 18:39 |
| the-boss | ali1234: Error: "meego-dev" is not a valid command. | 18:39 |
| ali1234 | if you try tojoin a forwarded channel that you are already in where it forwards to, you get the ban message | 18:39 |
| jargon- | mine says: 16:37:52 -!- Cannot join to channel #meego-dev (You are banned) | 18:40 |
| jargon- | ali1234: aah i see | 18:40 |
| jargon- | ok | 18:40 |
| ali1234 | part this channel and then try to join it | 18:40 |
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| jargon- | was weirded out by being banned from something i've never seen | 18:40 |
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| ali1234 | ok that doesn't work | 18:40 |
| ali1234 | it's just banned | 18:40 |
| jargon- | like having an arrest warrant issued in a country i've never been to. | 18:40 |
| ali1234 | everyone is* | 18:41 |
| jargon- | ali1234: ha! | 18:41 |
| ali1234 | just another stupid weird thing about meego | 18:41 |
| berndhs | there were (are?) countries where everyone is basically in jail, so its a normal condition :) | 18:41 |
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| jargon- | lol | 18:42 |
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| newbie007 | http://www.youtube.com/user/Tizen | 18:47 |
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| newbie007 | so any insight to intel's move? Let me throw this out there. An HTML5 based desktop would have _huge_ security issues that will take years to hammer out. A single CSS or javascript could easily compromise the system in multiple way all of which would be extremely hard to detect/prevent | 19:08 |
| ali1234 | how does that not apply to any other API? | 19:09 |
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| pabs3 | newbie007: maybe they wanted to trash the MeeGo name now that Nokia committed to using it (the name) for the N9 OS | 19:10 |
| ali1234 | s/a single css/javascript/a single piece of machine code/ | 19:10 |
| berndhs | but look at the rousing success of webOS and LiMo | 19:10 |
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| newbie007 | ali1234 perhaps it does, but you would have to admit that html/css would make it rather easy. | 19:11 |
| ali1234 | not really no | 19:11 |
| ali1234 | anyway if you want my insight into this whole mess it is as follows | 19:11 |
| ali1234 | OEMs want to pretend they are making their own OS so they have leverage over google | 19:12 |
| ali1234 | intel deperately wants to be seen as relevant in mobile after they sold their arm business (oops) | 19:12 |
| ali1234 | and LF is just deperate to sell linux to anyone at all | 19:13 |
| jstaniek | LF just sells stickers | 19:13 |
| ali1234 | nah you're thinking of RMS | 19:13 |
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| wmarone | heh, I'm still amused tht they quoted RMS at the initial MeeGo announcement | 19:15 |
| ali1234 | i would just like to repeat what i said 2 1/2 days ago | 19:16 |
| ali1234 | "it seems to take about 3 years to get a distro into a usable state. unfortunately maemo and meego have a history of starting over from scratch every 12-18 months, and the cycle seems to be getting even shorter with meego. it seems to have more deprecated APIs than it has releases." | 19:16 |
| jstaniek | would LF be decission maker in tizen? it just adds a sticker, that's how I see it. Compare openess of bada to Qt Open gov and you'll see difference. | 19:16 |
| ali1234 | i swear i didn't know about this in advance | 19:17 |
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| jstaniek | (bada was marketed as open system in Poland last year, BTW) | 19:18 |
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| thiago | hi Dawn | 19:52 |
| DawnFoster | hi thiago | 19:52 |
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| * pabs3 hopes dawn slept well | 19:53 | |
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| DawnFoster | pabs3: thanks :) still sleep deprived, but I got some anyway | 19:58 |
| pabs3 | it can't be easy being the welcoming face of tism | 19:59 |
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| MSvB | Hello folks, great timing. Just finished a MeeGo presentation on Friday, working on the second installment now and... | 20:09 |
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| tripzero | lol | 20:09 |
| MSvB | Tizen appears. | 20:09 |
| Stskeeps | boom | 20:10 |
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| RST38h | MSvB: Search&Replace to the rescue! | 20:11 |
| ulf^ | Hi | 20:11 |
| MSvB | RST38h: Guess so, but Qt is more than just a name. | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | lo ulf^ | 20:12 |
| MSvB | Probably won't take long to get the Qt libs on Tizen when it appears. | 20:12 |
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| ulf^ | Hi Stskeeps | 20:13 |
| notmart | MSvB: somebody already promised it http://nomovok.com/news/56/73/Nomovok-provides-Tizen-with-integrated-Qt | 20:13 |
| MSvB | notmart: Yes, but then the question is what else comes with the 3rd party distro? | 20:14 |
| MSvB | I think it's cleanest to just repackage Qt for Tizen if that's all that it's really lacking. | 20:15 |
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| MSvB | Whoever decided this probably has a strategy to migrate developer efforts anyway. | 20:15 |
| notmart | buh, too early to speculate what will be lacking and what will be there | 20:15 |
| RST38h | MSvB: YOu can always run Qt on tizen or whatever | 20:17 |
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| RST38h | Maybe they will just take Chrome OS and call it Tizen? | 20:17 |
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| tripzero | whuts a "Chrome OS" | 20:18 |
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| RST38h | google m8 lol | 20:18 |
| Khertan_webchat | RST38h: you can also run native Qt (QWidget) Application on Harmattan, they are just unthemed and so useless ;) | 20:19 |
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| RST38h | Khertan: Well, say for yourself: my applications run pretty well as QWidgets =) | 20:23 |
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| ali1234 | instead of repackaging qt for tizen and just pretending "this time it will be different" i have a better idea | 20:35 |
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| ali1234 | let's just ignore tizen and pretend it doesn't exist, and just carry on working on meego | 20:36 |
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| ali1234 | and by meego i mean mer | 20:36 |
| ali1234 | now you'll probably say "but meego won;t get any devices now because it is dead" | 20:37 |
| ali1234 | to which i would reply that it never got any while it was alive, and tizen probably will have even less chance | 20:37 |
| ali1234 | so i say we all go back to reverse engineering the htc du jour and attempting to port mer to them | 20:38 |
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| berndhs | also, there is #fedora-arm being fairly active recently | 20:38 |
| ali1234 | gentoo-embedded is pretty good too if you don't like OBS | 20:39 |
| ali1234 | and ubuntu has an arm port | 20:39 |
| ali1234 | although ubuntu has no touchscreen UX | 20:39 |
| ali1234 | and no plans to make one | 20:39 |
| ali1234 | pity really, unity could be really nice on a touchscreen if they got rid of all the stupid stuff | 20:39 |
| ali1234 | getting rid of that stupid stuff would make it much nicer to use on a desktop too | 20:39 |
| berndhs | haven't tried it | 20:40 |
| ali1234 | unity is better than gnome-shell or that kde activities nonsense | 20:40 |
| ali1234 | but it has a LOT of bugs | 20:40 |
| ali1234 | and not the type of bugs you get in KDE - these are proper design bugs | 20:41 |
| ali1234 | like half the UX is invisible until you mouse over it, which is impossible on a touchscreen | 20:41 |
| ali1234 | and it adds nothing for desktp users, because you just get a blank space instead of whatever (application menus for example, but other stuff is the same) | 20:41 |
| ali1234 | if you just removed that stuff, and made the top menu a bit more finger friendly, and stopped the launcher from hiding (already possible), unity would be great on a touch screen | 20:42 |
| uhsf | soon after I bought a Nokia N900 Maemo was killed in favor of MeeGo, now I was gonna buy an ASUS Eee PC X101 but MeeGo is being killed in favor of Tizen, this is all extremely frustrating | 20:42 |
| ali1234 | which is why i asked about unity-2d on wayland on mer :) | 20:42 |
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| uhsf | I really don't like Google but going for Android doesn't seem such a bad choice now considering this total Maemo/MeeGo/Tizen failure | 20:46 |
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| ali1234 | why don't you like google? | 20:46 |
| RST38h | uhsf: sure we all feel happy for you | 20:46 |
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| uhsf | and you are happy with any Maemo/MeeGo products? | 20:47 |
| frals | N9 is the best phone ive ever had | 20:48 |
| frals | so p. happy with that | 20:48 |
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| RST38h | uhsf: Whenwe are not happy,there are drugs! | 20:49 |
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| ali1234 | the best phone i ever had is a symbian, and nokia killed that too, so... | 20:49 |
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| RST38h | ali1234: I am sure you will be even happier with Nokia's WP7 phone! | 20:50 |
| ali1234 | ha ha no | 20:50 |
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| ali1234 | i am quite picky when it comes to the graphical style of the OS, and metro just looks like poop | 20:51 |
| ali1234 | pretty much the same reason i can't use KDE | 20:51 |
| ali1234 | everything just looks goofy | 20:51 |
| RST38h | so, you will just have to keep using your wp7 phone on empty stomach | 20:52 |
| ali1234 | i already switched to android :) | 20:52 |
| ali1234 | i just wish android phones didn't have an 8 hour battery life | 20:53 |
| ali1234 | here's something for you to ponder | 20:55 |
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| ali1234 | why does android have a fully featured community edition in cyanogenmod, but maemo never did? | 20:55 |
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| RST38h | because cyanogen is simply a remix of various crapthey pull from offical firmware images? | 20:59 |
| ali1234 | still better than nothing at all | 21:01 |
| newbie007 | hildon-desktop is pretty good | 21:02 |
| pebcak | better than vrap pulld from varios linux distributions and an almost nonexistent ecosystem | 21:02 |
| pebcak | °crapp | 21:02 |
| pebcak | moar tippgicht | 21:02 |
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| pebcak | :D | 21:03 |
| SpeedEvil | pebcak: The stuff cyanogen uses is exactly in the same legal position as warez. | 21:03 |
| SpeedEvil | You have no licence to use it. | 21:03 |
| pebcak | see if i care | 21:03 |
| pebcak | same could be said for dvdcss, lame etc. on linux/unix systems | 21:04 |
| pebcak | oh, let me see, no mp3s in meego | 21:04 |
| RST38h | what passes for "developer community"in android world feels like a sick joke | 21:04 |
| pebcak | that will surely be liked by the users | 21:05 |
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| pebcak | RST38h needs one to know one ey? | 21:05 |
| RST38h | pebcak: ? | 21:06 |
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| pebcak | really, people should concentrate on making meego better and more available instead of bashing android | 21:06 |
| * RST38h yawns at pebcak, widely | 21:06 | |
| ali1234 | pebcak: sorry, i thought we were bashing meego | 21:06 |
| berndhs | we've been bashing meego here all day :) | 21:08 |
| wmarone | what's this? Trolling? | 21:09 |
| pebcak | meego devices anyone? | 21:10 |
| pebcak | :D | 21:10 |
| augustl | N9, yo! | 21:11 |
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| wmarone | N9 != MeeGo | 21:11 |
| augustl | I guess we can call N9 a maemo device though | 21:11 |
| augustl | hehe yeah | 21:11 |
| pebcak | and it isn' t sold here | 21:11 |
| pebcak | next! | 21:11 |
| augustl | thankfully it is sold here | 21:12 |
| tripzero | ebay | 21:12 |
| tripzero | you can get almost anything from anywhere on ebay | 21:12 |
| berndhs | i'm sure you can buy an N9 pretty much anywhere | 21:12 |
| tripzero | yup | 21:12 |
| tripzero | it's one of the effects of globalization | 21:13 |
| wmarone | yup, under questionable warranty terms | 21:13 |
| SpeedEvil | tripzero: And at least 90% of the time, you may get it. | 21:13 |
| tripzero | well, now, that's different | 21:13 |
| berndhs | sure | 21:13 |
| SpeedEvil | wmarone: And sometimes the paypal guarantee actually works even. | 21:13 |
| tripzero | availability yes. under desirable terms, maybe not | 21:13 |
| * SpeedEvil just got a refund from a seller. | 21:13 | |
| pebcak | yeah, for a 100eur extra and no warranty | 21:13 |
| SpeedEvil | The seller had shipped me 2 1800*54mm glass tubes. | 21:14 |
| tripzero | lol | 21:14 |
| tripzero | win | 21:14 |
| SpeedEvil | In a packaging totalling 3 layers of bubblewrap. And fragile tape. | 21:14 |
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| SpeedEvil | I was able to return it in a 30cm*30cm*20cm box. | 21:14 |
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| zeroproximity1 | so intel shots meego in the back | 21:16 |
| zeroproximity1 | shoots* | 21:16 |
| augustl | tizen is not based on MeeGo, right? | 21:16 |
| augustl | I'll google for a FAQ, nvm | 21:16 |
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| zeroproximity1 | tizen is a bowl of crap, given intel track record i wouldnt buy a dead horse over tizen | 21:17 |
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| SpeedEvil | I think you have too many negatives in there. | 21:18 |
| zeroproximity1 | yea it should i would buy a dead horse over tizen | 21:18 |
| augustl | looks interesting imo. Very phonegap friendly. | 21:18 |
| berndhs | a fresh dead horse is enough food for several months | 21:19 |
| SpeedEvil | If you can jerk it. | 21:19 |
| SpeedEvil | Or otherwise preserve it. | 21:19 |
| zeroproximity1 | i guess maemo community edition is the only thing left unless some forks meego | 21:19 |
| berndhs | its winter soon in north america, easy to keep things frozen | 21:19 |
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| * RST38h #maemo laughs satanically | 21:23 | |
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| CosmoHill | RST38h: I always assumed you laugh satanically | 21:25 |
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| zeroproximity1 | what probably happened is the GooG told intel this is one pony show, you better drop your pony if want our help on hardware | 21:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | But that would mean that google is evil. | 21:31 |
| mwichmann | ummm, despite that individual groups may have their own focus, Intel is pretty OS agnostic | 21:32 |
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| mwichmann | moblin/meego/android/etc. efforts certainly didn't mean stopping windows, for example | 21:32 |
| zeroproximity1 | they turned to the dark side long time ago, to keep milking the cash cow | 21:33 |
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| zeroproximity1 | just when meego was gaining traction it gets shoot in the back | 21:34 |
| pebcak | mwichmann windows phone? | 21:35 |
| mwichmann | honestly, got no clue | 21:35 |
| mwichmann | just meant in general | 21:36 |
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| CosmoHill | there's a spelling mistake in my "hello world" program, don't think that counts as good start | 22:45 |
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| CosmoHill | hey DawnFoster | 22:51 |
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| CosmoHill | oh cool, if you press ctrl+return int textmate it's like "o" in vim | 22:52 |
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| ali1234 | villev: are you still interested in unity-2d on wayland? | 22:57 |
| ali1234 | cos it seems like an interesting idea to me | 22:58 |
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| sevarco | After the last annoucement of INTEL, shall we expect the 1.2.1 release with the tablet image ? | 23:04 |
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| * Khertan_webchat is listening the doors - the end | 23:16 | |
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| gprade | can meego now be free like debian? i mean, who has the control about all the stuff of meego? are any file, sourcecode or something else in the hand of intel, nokia or othe company, wich you would need to work? or is all you need to go one in the hand of the comunity? | 23:26 |
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| Stskeeps | without wanting to start a fight, free like debian, as in, free as in straightjacket? | 23:27 |
| Stskeeps | ;) | 23:27 |
| gabrbedd | gprade: the source has always be free. You have the whole stack available to build from scratch if you wish. All on public servers. It's always been that way. | 23:28 |
| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: yeah, except for those meego UX thingies.. | 23:28 |
| gprade | sorry, i am german and my english is not good, i dont know the word straigthjacket | 23:28 |
| gabrbedd | gprade: as for control... the TSG always has control. Unlike debian where it's The Debian Bureaucracy. | 23:29 |
| Stskeeps | gprade: ok, so, meego source code is already published and most of the sources has open source licenses | 23:29 |
| gabrbedd | gprade: straight jacket -- a device used to constrain insane people. | 23:29 |
| gprade | ok | 23:30 |
| gprade | so if i understand it right, it could be (hopfully) that now meego and maybe qt can grow like debian without the control of nokia, intel and other company's | 23:31 |
| gprade | what about this technical steering groups, i read that mostly people from intel and in past nokia in this groups | 23:32 |
| ali1234 | well the only thing that isn't free is the trademark | 23:32 |
| gprade | and the community can not use this trademark? i thought that if the trademark is in the hand of linux foundation, the community could use it? | 23:33 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, that's not always how the world works | 23:34 |
| ali1234 | not really no | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:34 |
| gprade | sad | 23:34 |
| ali1234 | linux foundation != the community | 23:34 |
| gprade | than it should be time for a fork? | 23:34 |
| ali1234 | but why would you even want to use the name? | 23:34 |
| ali1234 | mer is that way -> | 23:34 |
| ali1234 | meego is a silly name anyway | 23:34 |
| gprade | i like the name and the design | 23:34 |
| gprade | but that is taste | 23:35 |
| gprade | :-) | 23:35 |
| ali1234 | beyond the silly meegon things there's isn't much of a brand | 23:35 |
| ali1234 | there's certainly no recognizable "UX" | 23:35 |
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| ali1234 | you don't look at the homescreen on a device and instantly know it is meego like you do with unity, os x, win7 etc | 23:36 |
| gprade | ok | 23:36 |
| ali1234 | if you see handset you'll probably think "hmm is it some android varient?" | 23:37 |
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| ali1234 | and if you see netbook you;ll probably think "oh, some weird linux thing" | 23:37 |
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| ali1234 | maybe you could make the argument that tablet ux is quite distinctive i suppose | 23:38 |
| ali1234 | but only the spinny tab things, not the icon screen, which looks exactly like android, except more glitchy | 23:38 |
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| gprade | i understand, but if i read something like meego is installed, i think: "great, my handheld works together with my desktop (opensuse) and my meego tablet" if it could be some beautifull day | 23:38 |
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| ali1234 | yeah but that itsn't really true | 23:39 |
| ali1234 | meego isn't even guaranteed to work with meego | 23:39 |
| ali1234 | which raises a question | 23:39 |
| gabrbedd | IMHO, if folks want to continue a meego-like effort... should probably try to do something like Qt-over-Yocto (or openembedded) | 23:40 |
| ali1234 | oh no not openembedded | 23:40 |
| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: as far as i understand, there's nothing stopping anyone doing a qt 'tizen' :P | 23:40 |
| berndhs | yes sometihng along those lines, and make up a new name, meego has too much negativity in the public eye | 23:40 |
| gprade | i know, sad, i dont want go to apple to have all this working together, i like linux, i use ist on desktop many years, as a user, not a developer, i dream, that some day a real free linux is working on my smartphone, not someting unopen like android | 23:40 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: except common sense | 23:40 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: i mean, an acl package is an acl package.. | 23:40 |
| ali1234 | i won't be going anywhere near tizen | 23:41 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: indeed... except for confidence. :-) | 23:41 |
| ali1234 | fool me twice and all that | 23:41 |
| Stskeeps | fair enough, but you'd be fine with someone sharing packages with it to lessen work? | 23:41 |
| ali1234 | if you want to use tizen packages in mer that's fine by me :) | 23:42 |
| Stskeeps | alrighty then | 23:42 |
| ali1234 | sticking with the old meego ones probably isn't an option | 23:42 |
| Stskeeps | it's just really stupid(TM) to duplicate basic linux packaging work | 23:42 |
| ali1234 | well duh | 23:42 |
| ali1234 | that's why everyone said "just adapt fedora/ubuntu/debian/opensuse/slackware/etc" | 23:43 |
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| ali1234 | i think canonical have the right idea, basing off debian | 23:43 |
| ali1234 | if they'd tried to do what meego tried to do they would have failed, there is no question of that in my mind | 23:44 |
| gprade | can meego life without all this companies, or will it realy now die? | 23:44 |
| ali1234 | tbh i wouldn't use tizen packages even in another distro for fear they'll just disappear one day | 23:44 |
| ali1234 | maybe cherry pick patches and apply them on packages from somewhere else | 23:45 |
| ali1234 | somewhere that has a chance of still being around in 2 years | 23:45 |
| gprade | i mean debian life without any company which control it | 23:45 |
| ali1234 | i doubt it | 23:45 |
| ali1234 | meego is pretty much a zombie now | 23:45 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: I agree... that's why I think Yet Another Open Embedded Project isn't such a hot idea. :-) | 23:46 |
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