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| corecode | o hi | 00:13 |
|---|---|---|
| CosmoHill | .o/ | 00:13 |
| corecode | what are the chances of running meego on a mobile phone? | 00:14 |
| corecode | preferably on a n9 or n950 | 00:14 |
| CosmoHill | depends on the phone | 00:14 |
| corecode | :) | 00:14 |
| CosmoHill | http://wiki.meego.com/Developer_Devices | 00:14 |
| berndhs | 100%, people are doing as we speak | 00:14 |
| corecode | ok, let me rephrase | 00:15 |
| corecode | what are the chances of *me* running meego on a mobile phone | 00:15 |
| corecode | :) | 00:15 |
| berndhs | ah | 00:15 |
| corecode | did the n9 get released somewhere finally? | 00:15 |
| berndhs | some folks have meego-CE running on n950s | 00:15 |
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| corecode | so that whole swype business etc, only comes in binary on the n9/n950? | 00:16 |
| SpeedEvil | corecode: n900 | 00:16 |
| SpeedEvil | corecode: n900-ce | 00:17 |
| SpeedEvil | anyone can | 00:17 |
| corecode | what about $androidphone? | 00:17 |
| CosmoHill | there are many many phones | 00:17 |
| corecode | is there anything besides just keeping the android kernel? | 00:17 |
| SpeedEvil | Yes. | 00:17 |
| corecode | what is? | 00:18 |
| SpeedEvil | There may on many phones be userspace 'drivers' | 00:18 |
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| corecode | oh | 00:18 |
| corecode | magical binary daemons? | 00:18 |
| SpeedEvil | So the phone will not work without reverse engineering | 00:18 |
| corecode | i see | 00:18 |
| SpeedEvil | And policy for audio routing can be _nasty_ | 00:18 |
| SpeedEvil | Over a hundred audio mixers are not unknown | 00:19 |
| corecode | hah? | 00:19 |
| corecode | jesus | 00:19 |
| CosmoHill | jesus can't help you | 00:19 |
| CosmoHill | he's a carpenter, not a programmer | 00:20 |
| berndhs | although prayer can help the faithful to endure adverse conditions | 00:21 |
| corecode | yea, that doesn't work for me | 00:21 |
| SpeedEvil | corecode: Using water turned into wine then. | 00:22 |
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| berndhs | tequila has been know to help too, you won't care any more | 00:22 |
| corecode | i'll try next time i prefer wine over water | 00:22 |
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| augustl | anyone else waiting eagerly for n9 to launch? :) | 00:49 |
| thiago | already ordered one, but no, not so eager | 00:51 |
| augustl | don't think I've ever been so excited about a piece of hardware. | 00:55 |
| augustl | it's launching next week here in Norway, apparently. | 00:55 |
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| wmarone | nokia's done everything they can to steal my urge to buy one | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | :/ | 01:01 |
| wmarone | including forcing anyone in the US to go through importer channels for them | 01:01 |
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| augustl | Stephen Elop is an anagram for Pestle Phone. How's that for a conspiracy theory? | 01:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | actually I'd think inclusion of aegis did a pretty good job to steal everybody_linux-linked's excitement about that phone | 01:04 |
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| TSCHAKeee | what the hell is so wrong with Aegis? | 01:04 |
| TSCHAKeee | you have to have SOME form of security layer in a production phone. | 01:04 |
| TSCHAKeee | yes, I don't agree with ti | 01:05 |
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| TSCHAKeee | but I don't also get my fucking pants in a wad about it either | 01:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | turns linux into errr windows-- ? | 01:05 |
| augustl | what's aegis? | 01:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | the F/OSS world is full of people who REFUSE to compromise | 01:05 |
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| TSCHAKeee | who completely are so short focused on winning battles | 01:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | they lose the war. | 01:05 |
| ali1234 | what war? | 01:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL | 01:06 |
| TSCHAKeee | and the war is one that is self imposed. | 01:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL^2 | 01:06 |
| augustl | doesn't the n9 have settings for allowing apps from any source + granting full root access? | 01:06 |
| ali1234 | i really hate that argument | 01:06 |
| TSCHAKeee | and all of Aegis's policies can be changed, and if yuo REALLY don't like it, PUT ANOTHER FUCKING OS ON THE PHONE! | 01:07 |
| TSCHAKeee | crybabies. | 01:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm free to say "FSCK AEGIS!" ten times a day, ignore Nokia and N9, and feel good with it. That's not exactly war in my book | 01:07 |
| ali1234 | some people seem to have decided that it is vitally important for all FOSS software to be mass market even if it means making it no longer be FOSS | 01:07 |
| augustl | saw some folks were working on a free implementation of a N9 like UI for meego. That's cool! | 01:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | TSCHAKeee: yeah, all policies can get changed... BY NOKIA | 01:07 |
| ali1234 | that's called a pyrrhic victory, and yes, i'd rather lose the war | 01:08 |
| TSCHAKeee | learn to pick your battles, children. | 01:08 |
| TSCHAKeee | seriously. | 01:08 |
| TSCHAKeee | you'll live longer, and be happier. | 01:09 |
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| ali1234 | seriously, what battles are you talking about? | 01:09 |
| TSCHAKeee | this self imposed stance of "it's our way or no way" ... guess what fellas... Nokia is the one with the money. | 01:09 |
| TSCHAKeee | THEY MAKE THE RULES. | 01:10 |
| ali1234 | nokia can do whatever they like | 01:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | fsck, I'm the one with the money | 01:10 |
| ali1234 | indeed | 01:10 |
| TSCHAKeee | the fact that they've managed to make a phone that is more open than anything else out there | 01:10 |
| TSCHAKeee | and put it into mass production | 01:10 |
| TSCHAKeee | I consider a big win. | 01:10 |
| TSCHAKeee | little steps. | 01:10 |
| ali1234 | towards what? | 01:10 |
| ali1234 | i don't see what you hope to achieve | 01:11 |
| wmarone | TSCHAKeee: isn't the N9 less open than the N900? | 01:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | managed a phone more open? you're talking about N900, do you? ;-P | 01:11 |
| TSCHAKeee | the N900 has been discontinued. | 01:11 |
| wmarone | and haven't they thrown it all on the fire anyway? | 01:11 |
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| TSCHAKeee | so it's not available anymore..that leaves the N9 | 01:11 |
| TSCHAKeee | but whatever, this pedantism is really pissing me off | 01:11 |
| toninikkanen | what is there less open in the N9? Just root it and hack... ? | 01:11 |
| wmarone | toninikkanen: I thought the fuss was about Aegis interfering with that | 01:11 |
| toninikkanen | tracker-control -rs and all that | 01:12 |
| ali1234 | or in other words the N9 is exactly as open as any other phone | 01:12 |
| toninikkanen | you can kick aegis around | 01:12 |
| toninikkanen | i hope you still can anyway | 01:12 |
| augustl | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV99OZfrhEk - no longer true? | 01:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | no you can't ATM | 01:12 |
| MohammadAG | TSCHAKeee, didn't mind aegis at first, but then it started slowing down and sometimes halting my development | 01:12 |
| toninikkanen | now it's late saturday evening and i no longer remember what was the environment variable to tell aegis stay out of the way but | 01:12 |
| TSCHAKeee | it has never messed with my development | 01:12 |
| MohammadAG | flashing a LED isn't a security concern, why break it | 01:13 |
| TSCHAKeee | then again | 01:13 |
| TSCHAKeee | I use the damned official SDK | 01:13 |
| augustl | "Allow installation from none-store sources" | 01:13 |
| TSCHAKeee | but whatever. | 01:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | toninikkanen: no such env var | 01:13 |
| toninikkanen | export AEGIS_SOMETHING_ORIGIN=com.nokia.maemo or my.own.coolness | 01:13 |
| augustl | and the developer mode | 01:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | toninikkanen: hah, that's new | 01:14 |
| augustl | if the stuff they say in the video is true, it looks more than open enough for my taste :) | 01:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | toninikkanen: citation needed | 01:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | augustl: developer mode is no way near aegis-free | 01:14 |
| alterego | ls | 01:15 |
| toninikkanen | i am reminiscing things from half a year ago, i dunno how it's in the current shipping software..... | 01:15 |
| augustl | DocScrutinizer: is there a place where I can read more about aegis? Struggling to grok what it is exactly | 01:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | infobot: aegis | 01:15 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 01:15 |
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| augustl | tnx | 01:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4575 | 01:16 |
| toninikkanen | i am sorry i have no good info but this google-found link supports my idea that export AEGIS_FIXED_ORIGIN might still do something... http://gitorious.org/meegotouch-testing/test-env/commit/4a03198de3fa3c6fb59aae76ef62f2ca37492538?format=diff | 01:16 |
| ali1234 | this stuff does not make the phone any more secure | 01:16 |
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| toninikkanen | apart from that, maybe elena reshetova @intel (formerly @nokia) might know :) | 01:16 |
| ali1234 | what would make it more secure is if i could self sign the whole OS and whatever packages i chose to install with my own private key | 01:16 |
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| berndhs | aha another formerly person :) | 01:17 |
| toninikkanen | yeah spotted it 1-2 months ago she switched domains :) | 01:17 |
| ShadowJK | The biggest problem I have with aegis is that it prevents me from doing things I want to do on my device. If there was a way for me to tell aegis to allow my app to do the things I want to do, it wouldn't be so bad. And what happens after the typical short period nokia supports its products, they could very well stop signing new apps... | 01:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | toninikkanen: that link seems about aegis-testing tools that are not available to mere mortals | 01:19 |
| ShadowJK | Like Microsoft's "Playsforsure" music store thing, when people's purchased songs stopped working when the license servers were taken down :P | 01:20 |
| augustl | I hope in the future I can buy a samsung phone with Win 7 on it and install MeeGo or Android on it. Much like I can buy a windows laptop and install linux on it. | 01:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: exactly | 01:21 |
| ShadowJK | augustl, actually microsoft is working on plugging that hole (windows laptop -> install linux) :) | 01:21 |
| wmarone | augustl: would be nice, but vendor hostility to the notion of fully documenting hardware (or upstreaming anything) is too great | 01:21 |
| berndhs | what happens if your trusted authority goes bankrupt and is bought by an untrusted one ? | 01:21 |
| toninikkanen | DocScrutinizer: yeah but the point is that the proof that env variable might do something is out there :) | 01:21 |
| augustl | yeah, saw that, crazy stuff. | 01:21 |
| augustl | saw an interesting point. If the user is unable to remove the keys that comes with the laptop, the user is not able to _not_ trust windows if she so wishes. | 01:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | toninikkanen: you can't set that variable for the kernel processes that need it to be set, and you don'T have the tools that would allow you to make use of it | 01:22 |
| augustl | I'm sure someone will find a way to hack the n9 though. The iPhone isn't open either, but is still hackable :) | 01:22 |
| ali1234 | you might as well just buy an iphone | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | hah yeah, and each new update breaks jailbreak'ed iPhones | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | ali1234: exactly | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I'd prefer that to an N9 every day | 01:24 |
| ali1234 | at least with apple you know where you stand | 01:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | as for an iPhone I at least am somewhat sure they don't stop all support in 12 months | 01:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-D | 01:24 |
| ali1234 | meh | 01:24 |
| ali1234 | they pretty much do after 2 years | 01:25 |
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| ali1234 | or however often they bring out the new one | 01:25 |
| ShadowJK | indeed, locked down phones are slightly less bad if you know facebook and youtube will be fixed when it breaks :P | 01:25 |
| augustl | ali1234: yep.. My old 3G is unusable thanks to the OS "updates" | 01:26 |
| ShadowJK | or, to put it in another way: Apple gets away with behaving like a powerful big evil empire, because they are a powerful big evil empire. If you're not big and powerful, being evil and screwing your customers is probably not going to work out :) | 01:27 |
| augustl | the N9 is the first sexy smartphone after the original iPhone though :) | 01:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | hahaha | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah | 01:28 |
| augustl | and who cares if it 's not updated in a year from now | 01:28 |
| ShadowJK | augustl, what makes it sexy? I don't get it, looks like every other device out there, except that it has the touchscreen desensitizing thick glass? :P | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | as sexy as iPhone pre-jailbreak | 01:28 |
| augustl | if it's awesome now, it's awesome in 3 years even without updates. | 01:28 |
| augustl | ShadowJK: the OS, om nom | 01:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | augustl: you missed a thing: NOBODY can create new apps if they tear down appstrore or OVIstore | 01:29 |
| ShadowJK | augustl, if it's awesome now, in 6 months when youtube, gmail, google docs, facebook, vimeo and whatever have changed their APIs and protocols, and nothing works anymore, it's not so sexy anymore... | 01:29 |
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| TSCHAKeee | the sad reality of "web APIs" | 01:30 |
| TSCHAKeee | or any "protocol" for that matte. | 01:30 |
| augustl | basically, http://vimeo.com/28758945 | 01:30 |
| ali1234 | if you want youtubeon a phone there is really nothing that can even come close to the android youtube app | 01:30 |
| ShadowJK | (And then it can't be fixed because nobody has the signing keys except Nokia and Nokia doesn't care about fixing things) :( | 01:30 |
| augustl | DocScrutinizer, ShadowJK: hmm.. | 01:30 |
| augustl | it has a web browser though ;) | 01:31 |
| augustl | DocScrutinizer: so they removed that setting for allowing none store sources then? | 01:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: exactly - so much about FOSS in N9/harmattan | 01:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 01:31 |
| ali1234 | this is the thing | 01:31 |
| ali1234 | i don't use foss because i want it to be popular | 01:31 |
| ShadowJK | Sure, if we look at Maemo5, we've actually lost compatibility with alot of websites since the launch of the phone :P | 01:31 |
| ali1234 | i use it because i have been burned so many times by proprietary software | 01:32 |
| ali1234 | and yes i have noticed that websites stop working 6 months after the phone is released | 01:32 |
| augustl | so is thsi guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV99OZfrhEk correct, or you guys correct? :) | 01:32 |
| augustl | this* | 01:32 |
| ali1234 | this has affected all smartphones i have ever used | 01:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | augustl: non-store sources are allowed for simple stupid apps not needing special permissions. No way ever been there for fixing system stuff | 01:32 |
| augustl | I see | 01:33 |
| augustl | so none store sources allows you to install programs that gets the same permissions as programs from the Ovi store? | 01:33 |
| ShadowJK | I've understood the ovi store permissions only allow trivial apps too :/ | 01:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | augustl: definitely no | 01:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, maybe not ovi store but proper nokia harmattan update repo, dunno | 01:34 |
| ShadowJK | I just want a big OFF switch for Aegis, so I can actually use the device :( | 01:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it's just kernel modules, initscripts and whatnot else are signed with a nokia cert that you never get access to, so you cannot replace/fix things even in a simple initscript | 01:35 |
| augustl | is it possible to install your own OS on the device? Jailbreak it or whatever. | 01:36 |
| augustl | and install the free MeeGo, for example. Or perhaps even android | 01:36 |
| SpeedEvil | august yes - but that's not an option to fix issues for users. | 01:36 |
| augustl | well I only care about myself ;) | 01:36 |
| ShadowJK | That remains to be seen... we've been promised MeegoCE, but there seems to be no non-proprietary/non-secret way of doing that now? | 01:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, but you are not getting *any* meego-harmattan app then | 01:37 |
| augustl | someone is working on a N9 like UI for MeegGo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB3iHFVZGEs | 01:37 |
| augustl | DocScrutinizer: ah, hehe | 01:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | neither Nokia's dialer, nor any ovistore app | 01:37 |
| SpeedEvil | No angry birds! | 01:37 |
| augustl | so meego harmattan is basically locked down? | 01:37 |
| SpeedEvil | augustl: yes | 01:37 |
| augustl | so much for free software. | 01:37 |
| wmarone | yes, but they promised a (currently non-existent) open mode | 01:37 |
| augustl | and the N9 UI is not free, right? It's closed and decveloped especially for the N9, not for MeeGo? | 01:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | and already mumbled this won't come | 01:38 |
| SpeedEvil | yes | 01:38 |
| thiago | we had agreed to open source it just before Feb 11 | 01:39 |
| thiago | after that, everything broke down and I have no clue what got decided | 01:39 |
| ShadowJK | So to me it sounds like N9 is either a very expensive featurephone, or (potentially in the future if they release the chainloader) OS-less blank piece of hardware :P | 01:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | wmarone: actually what nokia does right now is locking down the whole thing even more, while no official statement about open mode exists, other than "use meegoCE" | 01:39 |
| augustl | hrmpf | 01:39 |
| augustl | thiago: Feb 11 is then Elop joined? | 01:40 |
| * ShadowJK was looking on ebay for more spare N900s today :/ | 01:40 | |
| wmarone | DocScrutinizer: right, I've been reading the forum posts. it's quite sad. | 01:40 |
| thiago | augustl: no, he joined one year ago | 01:40 |
| wmarone | feb 11 is when he set fire to Nokia | 01:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | when he pissed gasoline | 01:41 |
| Sazpaimon | cant N9 debs be installed via alien? | 01:41 |
| augustl | sucks, sucks, sucks. Here comes the first none-Apple smartphone I want, and it's abandonware and locked down and what not. Grr. | 01:41 |
| Sazpaimon | alien can convert deb into rpm, and if the libraries exist on both, why wouldnt it work | 01:41 |
| ShadowJK | abandonware but opensource/modifiable/hackable would be kinda acceptable though :P | 01:42 |
| ali1234 | what good will that do? | 01:42 |
| augustl | ShadowJK: indeed | 01:42 |
| wmarone | Sazpaimon: what are you trying to jam into an RPm system? | 01:42 |
| augustl | ShadowJK: then it wouldn't be abandonware :) | 01:42 |
| Sazpaimon | I was referring to: | 01:42 |
| augustl | or, that would be up to the community, not a board of directors | 01:42 |
| Sazpaimon | [18:37] <DocScrutinizer> neither Nokia's dialer, nor any ovistore app | 01:42 |
| ShadowJK | those probably don't run on plain meego? | 01:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | Sazpaimon: the GUI API etc are not compatible | 01:43 |
| Aard | Sazpaimon: harmattan uses nokias old proprietary cellular stack, meego uses ofono | 01:43 |
| ShadowJK | embrace and extend, or whatever that motto was :P | 01:43 |
| Sazpaimon | Aard, see what I bolded | 01:43 |
| SpeedEvil | Harmattan is almost meego in name only | 01:43 |
| Sazpaimon | not the dialer | 01:43 |
| Sazpaimon | but yeah DocScrutinizer has a point | 01:43 |
| Sazpaimon | its like trying to run libhildon on meego | 01:43 |
| Aard | Sazpaimon: most of the harmattan middleware in some way links to cellular-related stuff | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | and meego middleware is completely different aiui | 01:44 |
| wmarone | Sazpaimon: libhildon at least is open source (see Cordia) | 01:45 |
| Sazpaimon | true | 01:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, you can try to rebuild a complete harmattan system based on meegoCE | 01:45 |
| Aard | DocScrutinizer: quite a lot is the same, the problem is the missing hooks into stuff like csd and a few other proprietary bits | 01:46 |
| ShadowJK | also no tracker in meego proper? | 01:46 |
| augustl | time for a distributed brute force to get the private key for ovi? >< | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually I pondered same, augustl | 01:46 |
| augustl | shouldn't take more than a couple of billion years right? :) | 01:47 |
| ShadowJK | I wonder how long it would take eldar ;P | 01:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, we got a ot of signed packages | 01:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | a lot* | 01:47 |
| augustl | ah | 01:47 |
| augustl | well, consider my CPUs available ;) | 01:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer | we actually should create an app for OVI store that displays some cute screensaver stuff and does a distributed attack on the root cert, when on charger | 01:49 |
| augustl | =D | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | the one who finds the key gets whatever price | 01:49 |
| * SpeedEvil wonders about the 'overclocking' to max clock speed situation. | 01:50 | |
| DocScrutinizer | desktop PC app for the addicts | 01:50 |
| ali1234 | a couple of powerful GPUs would probably outperform every N9 sold | 01:51 |
| psycho_oreos | problem with distributed attack would require downloading of progress, not all of us would have unlimited monthly quota to deal with distributed cracking | 01:51 |
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| ali1234 | no | 01:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah, getting a chunk of 1k keys out of the key space is utterly lightweight | 01:52 |
| Sazpaimon | alextai, my voodoo card could outperform every N9 sold | 01:52 |
| augustl | p2p could solve that | 01:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | process, send back, get next chunk | 01:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | you just need one small server to distribute the chunks to process and collect the results | 01:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | nice master thesis topic ;-D | 01:54 |
| ali1234 | hardly | 01:54 |
| augustl | or a server that lists all clients, then everything else happens p2p | 01:54 |
| ali1234 | this is trivial map/reduce stuff | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | augustl: way too complex | 01:55 |
| augustl | the server should run on a n900. | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | why not | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | N900 is good enough for that task | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | maybe not | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | you'd need a lot of clients | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | more than n900 could handle | 01:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | and the database of work would be quite large too | 01:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | but the question is if we ever get that number of clients | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | unlikely | 01:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer | so for any number of clients reasonably to expect the N900 will do ;-) | 01:57 |
| ali1234 | your best bet is buy a N9 and put it in storage for 10 years | 01:58 |
| augustl | :) | 01:58 |
| ali1234 | by then cracking the cert should be significantly easier | 01:58 |
| augustl | I'm no longer super excited about the N9, damn you all. | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | augustl: it's still almost as good as iPhone. Some say for what they care about, it's even better | 01:59 |
| SpeedEvil | ali1234: Unscrew the case, and remove the battery first | 01:59 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil: you mean _destroy_ the case | 02:00 |
| javispedro | oh, and Aegis discussion and I missed it. | 02:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | hehehe | 02:00 |
| wmarone | javispedro: I don't think it was a discussion so much as pitching rocks at it | 02:01 |
| augustl | hey, it was useful for me :) | 02:01 |
| augustl | didn't know the N9 was locked down, I trusted the bait and switch from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV99OZfrhEk | 02:02 |
| augustl | perhaps the N9 can be jailbroken to run unsigned stuff, just like the iPhone | 02:03 |
| wmarone | augustl: aegis is stiffer than the protections on the iPhone | 02:03 |
| augustl | that would allow for running harmattan and install whatever you want. Just like jailbroken iPhones runs iOS, not MyFreeIOSLookalike | 02:03 |
| augustl | really?!? Lame. | 02:04 |
| javispedro | augustl: since you are in #meego, you should know that it will supposedly run MeegoCE OoB (not yet, though) | 02:04 |
| ali1234 | what does that even mean? | 02:04 |
| augustl | I want the N9 for the OS though :S | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's exactly the point | 02:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | N9 is maybe even "free", the harmattan OS though, NOT | 02:05 |
| ali1234 | it's exactly the same choice you have on android | 02:05 |
| frals | how is aegis stiffer than the protection on ios? | 02:06 |
| ali1234 | you run the oem firmware, or you run AOSP, or you hope cyanogen can figure out how to jailbreak your phone and pirate the UI | 02:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | frals: aiui iOS doesn't check during runtime, it's all about installing/not_installing | 02:07 |
| ali1234 | the difference being you can do that on android today; where as nokia have just been promising it for years | 02:07 |
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| frals | DocScrutinizer: alright... otoh it seems a lot easier to install something "unsigned" on harmattan than ios, but i guess thats beside the point in this case | 02:08 |
| augustl | guess I'll skip the N9 then.. Don't want to not be able to install software on it in the future. | 02:09 |
| augustl | such a shame | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, it's easier to install unsigned fart apps | 02:09 |
| frals | DocScrutinizer: s/fart apps/anything not replacing system components/? | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | but editing init scripts is way easier on iOS I guess | 02:10 |
| augustl | DocScrutinizer: what exactly is the sandbox for unsigned apps, compared to signed ones? | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | frals: yeah, pretty much | 02:10 |
| javispedro | ali1234: supposedly the promise will materialize next week | 02:10 |
| SpeedEvil | augustl: They have different sets of credentials. | 02:10 |
| SpeedEvil | augustl: If by unsigned you mean 'self-signed' | 02:10 |
| frals | DocScrutinizer: you have to crack the whole security stuff on ios to be able to even look at the init scripts, whereas on harmattan you can look but not touch without breaking stuff.. | 02:10 |
| SpeedEvil | augustl: unsignes stuff will simply not run | 02:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | frals: ok never mind. I got no clue about iOS actually | 02:11 |
| frals | DocScrutinizer: dont know too much, but thats what it seems like on my ipad2 | 02:11 |
| augustl | SpeedEvil: so "none app store sources" or whatever it was called still need signed apps, but you can sign with anything? | 02:11 |
| SpeedEvil | augustl: you can sign with the SDK, but the set of credentials that are allowed by the device on a non-nokia package is much reduced. | 02:12 |
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| SpeedEvil | non-nokia, non ovi-store | 02:12 |
| frals | SpeedEvil: uh, self installed packages will run fine except if they try to mess with system stuff (requiring credential x), no? | 02:12 |
| augustl | what kind of reductions are we talking about? | 02:12 |
| SpeedEvil | frals: yes | 02:12 |
| SpeedEvil | Sorry I'm apparantly not being clear | 02:12 |
| frals | augustl: mess with startup scripts/change system components at least | 02:12 |
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| augustl | so you can probably make a web browser etc? | 02:13 |
| augustl | I guess the phone and sms will continue working. I'm mostly conserned about having a outdated browser. | 02:13 |
| augustl | and imap probably won't change all that much either.. | 02:14 |
| frals | i heard rumours about fennec being installable so at least i dont worry about a "outdated" browser | 02:14 |
| ali1234 | you can make a browser, you can't replace the system html rendering component | 02:14 |
| frals | but you can install your own along side the system one | 02:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | frals: well, self-installed apps don't have many permissions, and they can not request many premissions either - the ones they could request are to be requested via the manifest | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | yes, and it won't integrate properly with the rest of the OS | 02:15 |
| augustl | ali1234: I'm sure a browser app could embed a build of webkit or whatever, though | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | yes and that won't help you when the email reader is rendering html messages incorrectly | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | or the rss reader | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | or any other app that opens stuff in the system renderer | 02:15 |
| frals | i guess webkit2 is pretty decent at what it does currently though | 02:16 |
| ali1234 | these browsers are always great when the phone is new | 02:16 |
| SpeedEvil | ali1234: Or if an included certificate gets compromised - diginotar | 02:16 |
| ali1234 | because they are hand optimized to work with popular sites | 02:16 |
| javispedro | and even if the fix is a single line of code, you will have to roll on your browser, losing whatever closed feature has been added by nokia. | 02:16 |
| javispedro | despite the engine being open source. | 02:16 |
| ali1234 | 6 months down the line, after the reviewers have all got a new phone, the browsers always stop working right | 02:17 |
| SpeedEvil | Is flash in the release n9?" | 02:17 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil: supposedly not. | 02:17 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: ... | 02:17 |
| SpeedEvil | I guess youtube working is supposed to be adequate. | 02:18 |
| augustl | ali1234: really? :S | 02:18 |
| augustl | hand optimized ftl | 02:18 |
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| SpeedEvil | I'm annoyed that iplayer is broken now. | 02:18 |
| Sazpaimon | I dont believe Nokia wanted to license the flash plugin from adobe | 02:18 |
| ali1234 | iplayer never worked right on n900 | 02:18 |
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| SpeedEvil | ali1234: works somewhat for me. Though I actually get most of my content with get_iplayer | 02:18 |
| ali1234 | i once got it to play video at about 0.3 fps | 02:18 |
| SpeedEvil | Which isn't affected | 02:18 |
| SpeedEvil | ali1234: Worked well fullscreen smooth video here | 02:19 |
| augustl | I hope the free MeeGo eventually is as sweet or sweeter than the closed swipe UI, then it's a no brainer which OS I will run on my smartphone ;) | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | yoh | 02:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer | btw I managed to get VBUS 5V powered on N950 a few hours ago - a first step to USB hostmode (though again this is impossible to ever work against aegis and locked down kernel). Maybe interesting perspective for meegoCE though | 02:21 |
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| augustl | tried MeeGo for my netbook, but rolled back to arch after a couple of days.. Nothing beats wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd in a screen when it comes to speed and reliability for WiFi connections. | 02:22 |
| javispedro | hmmm?? | 02:22 |
| javispedro | Meego _uses_ wpa_supplicant. | 02:22 |
| augustl | for some reason it behaved strangely though. | 02:22 |
| SpeedEvil | augustl: Static IP | 02:23 |
| augustl | when resuming from suspend it wouldn't find my interface, etc. | 02:23 |
| augustl | well, wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd works just fine ;) | 02:23 |
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| augustl | also, the window manager was slow. As in, it was snappy but animations had long durations. And that wasn't configurable. | 02:24 |
| augustl | but I'm not being constructive so I'll stop :) | 02:24 |
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| ali1234 | meego wifi is wonky as hell | 02:27 |
| augustl | I wonder why, if it uses wpa_supplicant? | 02:27 |
| ali1234 | also handset is awful for pointless animations | 02:27 |
| javispedro | he was probably talking about netbook | 02:27 |
| augustl | I guess the wpa_supplicant cli and lib is somewhat different though. | 02:27 |
| javispedro | which, imho, is even more pointless. | 02:27 |
| javispedro | (animations I mean) | 02:27 |
| javispedro | specially alt+tab one.. | 02:27 |
| augustl | I think many people appreciate animations | 02:27 |
| ali1234 | that rotation animation is completely unnecessary and doesn't even make sense | 02:27 |
| augustl | but since it's a linux it should probably be configurable :) | 02:28 |
| javispedro | since it's _open_ it's the word you were looking for ;) | 02:28 |
| ali1234 | the latest symbian update added a load of animations | 02:28 |
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| javispedro | btw, wasn't samsung supposed to announce something open-ish this past week? | 02:30 |
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| tzorvas | anyone with n900? | 02:41 |
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| augustl | we have one at the office | 02:42 |
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| tzorvas | ahm.. :$ mine is "down" and i need a way to backup its contents before reflashing it .. i can get it into Nokia Firmware Upgrade Mode but i dont know how to mount its internal storage :/ (cant open the phone) | 02:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer | /join #maemo | 02:47 |
| ali1234 | flash u-boot, make a meego sd card, backup internal devices with dd and netcat | 02:49 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | Anyone know if there's a way to logout on meego netbook? For troubleshooting, I want to try logging in as root on the GUI. | 03:36 |
| Alison_Chaiken | Yes, I know I can login as root on console or other vts. | 03:36 |
| bugzy | Alison_Chaiken: push the hardware power button on your netbook | 03:40 |
| bugzy | Alison_Chaiken: it should display a list of exit options | 03:40 |
| Alison_Chaiken | bugzy, thanks, but doing so creates a pop-up asking if I want to shut down. I was hoping to get to gdm. Hmm, maybe gdm isn't running. | 03:41 |
| Alison_Chaiken | Yeah, `ps axl | grep dm` yields nothing. So I guess maybe there's no way to logout, although maybe it would work if I started gdm by hand. | 03:42 |
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| bugzy | I see. Do you know how to start up the meego ux from cli ? | 03:44 |
| bugzy | like "startkde" or something of the like | 03:45 |
| bugzy | if so you can login via the vt and start up the netbook shell from console. Any ways just a suggestion. I am not surw if it helps anything | 03:45 |
| Alison_Chaiken | Yes, I've uxlaunched from CLI before; was hoping there was an easier way. Thanks. | 03:46 |
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| CosmoHill | bleh | 04:12 |
| berndhs | indeed | 04:12 |
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| iekku | morning | 10:06 |
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| ukl | hello #meego. I'm about to try the summer release on my n900, using the phone (via usb) to write the image to the sd card. (that's possible, right?) | 11:33 |
| Stskeeps | it's not recommended, best to use a microsd to usb or mmc slot in pc | 11:33 |
| ukl | ok | 11:34 |
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| ukl | I'll have another go at trying to get the reader to work, then. thanks. | 11:34 |
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| hiemanshu | or you could use the resuce initrd, and use that to flash the SD Card | 11:40 |
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| ukl | hmm as the image gets dd'ed directly, including the partition table, what happens with the remaining space on the sd card? | 12:00 |
| thiago | unused | 12:00 |
| ukl | So i can just mkfs it to have extra space... Or would it be advisable to resize the meego partition to fill it up? | 12:01 |
| thiago | both are valid approaches | 12:01 |
| ukl | any advice? | 12:02 |
| thiago | choose one | 12:02 |
| ukl | :) ok | 12:02 |
| Stskeeps | resizing probably best | 12:02 |
| Stskeeps | less room for mistakes with rsyncing over the contents etc | 12:02 |
| ukl | ok thanks | 12:03 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: this is result from cpucheck: http://pastebin.com/Gku9585Z | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | ok, and that's after our gcc modifications? | 12:27 |
| ali1234 | yes | 12:27 |
| Stskeeps | looks sane, i would say? | 12:27 |
| Stskeeps | qtgui one is for sure guarded | 12:28 |
| thiago | the other ones might not be | 12:28 |
| thiago | how did you get SSE4.2 in there? | 12:28 |
| ali1234 | i dunno | 12:28 |
| ali1234 | the script is not too smart, it might be wrong | 12:28 |
| ali1234 | it just does objdump | grep <instruction mnemonics> | 12:29 |
| ali1234 | anyway i am investigating that cpp one | 12:29 |
| ali1234 | pcmpestri is the instruction used | 12:32 |
| thiago | that's 4.2 | 12:32 |
| ali1234 | yes | 12:32 |
| thiago | 085a7ef0 <gen_sse4_2_pcmpestri>: | 12:32 |
| thiago | looks like it's checked | 12:33 |
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| ali1234 | that's not the right place | 12:33 |
| * thiago sees MMX, SSE2 and SSE4.2 code | 12:34 | |
| thiago | weird, I thought these MMX instructions were added with SSE2 | 12:34 |
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| thiago | it would be useful if you have an SSE2 machine running on an OS that doesn't support it (no osxsave) | 12:37 |
| ali1234 | such as? | 12:38 |
| ali1234 | this cpp_finished function is a monster | 12:38 |
| ali1234 | this is the real function using those instructions http://pastebin.com/e8J0CFRw | 12:40 |
| ali1234 | wait no it isn't | 12:40 |
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| ali1234 | this is http://pastebin.com/9scd8yyE | 12:41 |
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| ali1234 | all those cpp, gcc etc all come from gcc source package right? | 12:43 |
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| thiago | yes | 12:44 |
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| ali1234 | ok for sure this is guarded | 12:51 |
| ali1234 | it's from gcc-4.6.1/libcpp/lex.c | 12:51 |
| augustl | I wonder how easy it is to add statusnet to the N9 notifications home screen. | 12:52 |
| ali1234 | and comments explicitly state it's guarded so... | 12:52 |
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| wspyder | Is there a way to run a program at startup (I'm on netbook with IA), I have tried adding to both /etc/rc.d/rc.local and /etc/rc.local but no effect... | 14:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: this might be interesting to meegoCE as well: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4610 | 14:42 |
| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: will read when at my hotel tonight | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | (going for travel) | 14:43 |
| SpeedEvil | Have a good trip. | 14:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: just the first baby steps towards hostmode on N9(50) | 14:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: ...with all the collateral benefit, like bme replacement by a simple charger script, etc | 14:45 |
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| ali1234 | DocScrutinizer: what tool are you using to probe i2c that outputs "candidate: bq24153A rev1.1" etc | 15:14 |
| ali1234 | or you doing that by hand? | 15:14 |
| SpeedEvil | ali1234: by hand | 15:15 |
| SpeedEvil | Go through plausible datasheets and read the ID fields in them | 15:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | exactly | 15:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | I didn't post the other candidates I've been considering and rejected them after I found out they don't match | 15:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ali1234: the job was relatively simple as N900 has the known TI chip bq24150 on same I2C addr | 15:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | so the initial list of candidates was as short as 10 some chips, from TI | 15:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ali1234: and I already knew from N9 schematics that the charger circuitry is rather similar to N900 | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | NB for N9 this chip still could be another one of the TI BQ2415x series, as all my tests were done on a N950 | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | (no N9 here. Konttori: hint hint :-D ) | 15:27 |
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| alterego | We have N9 schematics? | 15:47 |
| SpeedEvil | yes | 15:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer | :-) | 15:55 |
| SpeedEvil | I would like to say it was through my hacking skills, and social engineering. | 15:56 |
| SpeedEvil | But in reality, I googled 'n9 schematic' | 15:57 |
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| alterego | Heh | 15:59 |
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| berndhs | morning | 16:53 |
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| CosmoHill | hi | 16:54 |
| Venemo | ey | 16:55 |
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| * CosmoHill needs a name of a town | 17:04 | |
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| Pauly2 | hello | 18:02 |
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| berndhs | yo | 18:02 |
| Pauly2 | whats the coolest meego device out? | 18:03 |
| Pauly2 | or device u can meego on | 18:03 |
| hena | n950 i | 18:04 |
| hena | spose | 18:04 |
| Stefan80 | only one available yet is wetab I think and n9 coming out soon (phone) | 18:04 |
| Pauly2 | people in the maemo community say it isnt really meego its very different | 18:05 |
| berndhs | indamixx device is way cool | 18:05 |
| hena | different ux | 18:06 |
| hena | wetab is hard to get depending on your origin | 18:06 |
| hena | i guess n950 is no easier | 18:07 |
| hena | n9 is overprices | 18:07 |
| hena | priced | 18:07 |
| berndhs | n950 is harder to get than wetab | 18:07 |
| Pauly2 | indamixx seems expensive | 18:07 |
| berndhs | indamixx is special purpose | 18:07 |
| berndhs | but its cool :) | 18:08 |
| Pauly2 | what does it do the website is confusing? | 18:08 |
| Pauly2 | i remeber seeing another tablet instead of WeTab but i cant rember the name? | 18:09 |
| berndhs | indamixx is music studio stuff, for people who make music | 18:10 |
| thiago | exopc | 18:11 |
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| Pauly2 | ya i think so | 18:11 |
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| Pauly2 | what do you guys use? | 18:12 |
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| * thiago has a lenovo ideapad and has ordered an N9 | 18:13 | |
| berndhs | i have a laptop with meego and a n950 | 18:13 |
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| CosmoHill | oh good god why would someone do this | 20:44 |
| CosmoHill | they've converted Friends to HD and broadcast it on a different channel | 20:44 |
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| berndhs | i quit watching TV entirely | 20:49 |
| CosmoHill | i wish friends would die...the tv program of course | 20:49 |
| * Stskeeps headdesks over internet media | 20:51 | |
| Stskeeps | meego now has patents, too | 20:51 |
| berndhs | ah that's what they are up to, take over the industry with law suits | 20:52 |
| CosmoHill | who gets meego on weekends? | 20:52 |
| berndhs | those damn hobbyists, that's who | 20:53 |
| RST38h | CosmoHill: 1) Turn off the idiot box 2) Peek whatever is still worth watching off torrents | 20:56 |
| * CosmoHill is watching Mrs Doubtfire | 20:56 | |
| berndhs | TV wants to force their timing on you, telling you when to pay attention to what | 20:56 |
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| Venemo | I solved the Qt SDK issue on MeeGo. | 21:04 |
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| mingwandroid | gpg2 --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv 0BC7BEC479FC1F8A | 22:40 |
| mingwandroid | gpg: requesting key 79FC1F8A from hkp server subkeys.pgp.net | 22:40 |
| mingwandroid | gpg: keyserver timed out | 22:40 |
| mingwandroid | Anyone know the fix? Trying to install mic2 on fedora 14. I can ping subkeys.pgp.net | 22:41 |
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| mingwandroid | hmm, worked eventually. | 22:42 |
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