IRC log of #meego for Wednesday, 2011-08-03

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* CosmoHill grumbles about his hayfever pills00:06
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jedixAnyone know why rpcbind and friends won't start on boot for me?00:06
jedixin meego 1.200:07
CosmoHillare the services disabled or set not to start on boot?00:07
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Stskeepsjedix: NFS isn't exactly working in meego00:08
Stskeepsnot a FEA#, afaik00:08
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lbtjedix: Aard has nfs on c.obs IIRC00:18
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aukemeego's kernel doesn't enable nfs00:20
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* lbt goes looking for the registry setting... :)00:26
lbthmm he's not built a kernel on c.obs yet either....00:27
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CosmoHillhello vgrade02:13
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berndhsTermana is here, time for dinner03:16
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wazdhello all11:36
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Alison_ChaikenSituation at my workplace in Sunnyvale just keeps getting more ugly:****11:49
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Alison_ChaikenIt's bad enough that there are netbooks running Windows showing a closed loop featuring Valtteri talking about MeeGo in the meanwhile.    (This is NOT Valtteri's doing, I know.)11:50
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lcukso success amongst the other stuff yesterday.13:49
* lcuk wrote first .spec file13:49
timophlbt: anything that someone (e.g. me) can help with the effort?13:49
timophlbt: yay!13:50
infobottimoph meant: lcuk: yay!13:50
Jaffalcuk: Directlyorusing spectacle?13:50
lcuktimoph, the packages are building, but missing some components13:50
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lbttimoph: there must be...13:50
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lcukJaffa, short, simple direct ones13:50
lcukI just started with the .tar.gz that I would submit to maemo autobuilder13:50
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lcukand very simple .spec file outside13:51
timophlbt: could someone involved with it setup a wikipage or something so that people would know how/where to contribute13:51
lcuktimoph, I think it is stillbeing digested13:51
lbtphone ... bbiam13:52
lcukJaffa, once I wrote the .spec and submitted it13:52
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lcukit was a case of tweaking and reading the build log13:52
lcukso really no different to autobuilder13:52
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lcukwhat difference to meego would it make if aegis were fully open and implemented on meego core?13:55
lcukie for any of the uxes13:55
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timophlcuk: I thought it is ->
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JaffaIndeed, although "(some of) the architects" have said it's not appropriate for MeeGo anymore13:59
Jaffalbt: Have LF been clear that they're happy with COBS and containing installable packages?14:00
lcukthanks timoph14:05
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Jaffalbt: So basing a solution around that would be risky, but perhaps a stepping stone?14:13
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lbtJaffa: the stated problem and solution aren't consistent IMHO14:14
Jaffalbt: Having provide OCS info to installers on device to install packages and repos from seems easy but, as you say, inconsistent.14:15
lbtsince will actually distribute the binaries14:15
lbtthey've removed the minor threat of linking whilst retaining the major of distributing....14:16
Jaffalbt: Almost like the whole thing hascome from lawyers without an appropriate understanding of the Internet and no feedback/filtering fromLF folks who do14:16
lbtso IMHO ... either this is anti-H or c.obs will be next14:16
* timoph nods14:16
lcukJaffa, side topic,  adding .spec file at that level (should) allow the package to be buildable for n9x0-ce too14:16
Jaffalcuk: Indeed, one of the things onmy TODO :)14:17
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* Jaffa bemoans the lack of TSG leadership, or even visibility, on this.14:18
JaffaBut then the Internet's put me in a grumpy mood today14:19
lcukwell you were on holiday :P14:19
Jaffalcuk: ;-)14:19
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Stskeepsthe thought if to fork or fight does occasionally pop up.14:19
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JaffaBut at what level?14:20
JaffaMaybe we could set up a ForMeeGo organisation & council ;-)14:20
vvaltonewhat? mount an assault on LF HQ?14:20
Stskeepsfighting=argue and making an effort to change things14:21
lbt"vote for option3"14:21
* lbt considers making it a proposition14:21
Stskeepsthe only place the project really works is on the factory floor, management seems missing and invisible14:22
X-FadeI'd feel more for community run project with LF as trademark holder and compliance body?14:22
lbtX-Fade: yep ... that's option 314:22
JaffaBecause LF's cpmpliance process was really open to feedback?14:22
X-FadeUnless LF gets more than the 2 or 3 people working on MeeGo now.14:22
StskeepsJaffa: i've succesfully gotten things changed, though14:22
Stskeepson technical stuff14:23
JaffaStskeeps: Indeed. Getting Arjan et al over to the shadow-project would be good14:23
Stskeepsi think a CE style thing is more appropiate since there's still something about having a good common meego core14:24
Stskeepsand then focus on the open development of that14:24
* Stskeeps doesn't really care for the UX'es14:24
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Jaffafd.o already deals with .desktop standards et al14:25
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Stskeepsproblem is always how to delimit meego core :)14:26
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* lbt has an idea ... as usual14:26
lbtback to the trim down core option14:26
JaffaVarious bits of the project seem out of touch, or control. Management/leadership, meego-qa@, ecosystem management, ...14:27
lbtthen make the UXes and CE projects to build against core14:27
lbtJaffa: and that's the problem14:27
lbtidea's are useless14:27
lbtunless we can have some organisational leadership14:27
lbtputting MeeGo project into an nfp and setting up a new TSG14:28
lbt(same as the old one for now)14:28
JaffaNFP = Not Fit for Purpose?14:28
lbtnot for profit14:29
* Stskeeps is inclined towards a MeeGo reconstructed approach where we show, with code and documented procedures how things should be done14:29
Stskeepspreparing meego 2.0 ;)14:29
lbtset that up as ... nfp... reuse copies of the infra.... link to old infra14:29
lbtsetup TSG, establish quorum rules ... invite Imad, and give him seniority14:30
JaffaCall it Project SG or aomething14:31
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* Stskeeps votes for Mer.14:32
* Stskeeps runs14:32
sivanganybody knows how to add meego repos to n950?14:32
the-bossStskeeps: Error: "harmattan" is not a valid command.14:32
lcukit is noted in there how to do it14:32
sivangStskeeps: oh thahnks14:32
sivangthank you lcuk14:32
lcuksince jaffa and lardman created an ecellent getting started14:32
JaffaArchitects have first comment on Technical matters14:32
* sivang notes this is the best device Nokia has produced after the successful N900. :)14:33
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lcukStskeeps, why push everything n950 to #harmattan?14:33
sivangI had tears in my eyes to the image of the amazing multitasking, specifically navigatin and closing tasks14:33
Stskeepslcuk: that's where people are14:33
JaffaTrolls too, tho'14:33
timophlcuk: it really isn't on topic here14:33
lcukare we not here also?14:33
sivangStskeeps: but if we keep it here, we show how good meego is :)14:33
lcuktimoph, from the obs side we are14:33
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sivanghmm I can't join14:34
* timoph tries not to start yet another what is meego debate :)14:34
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lcuksivang, what app are you wanting to create, or do you just want repositories to download14:35
* sivang needs an armhlv7 skype deb14:35
Stskeepsso, how about this.. we start out with the objective of meego 2.0 design, organisationally and code wise, shaping meego to the future. on code level we don't fork, but 2.0 comes with no obligation for backwards compat14:35
lardmansivang: you just joined according to my client14:35
Stskeepsso we start with a meego core14:35
Stskeepsand slim it14:35
lcukthe problem still comes that end users expect normality14:36
JaffaAren't many end-users14:36
lcukand compatability with media etc14:36
lcukstuff like skype14:36
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lcukmeego itself is right to provide those corp apps, if we just remake mer14:37
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lcukwe end up still missing the common things expected14:37
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timophlcuk: that's where the community extras/surrounds/whatever steps in14:39
JaffaStskeeps: Code submission processes are MeeGo "upstream" not 2.014:39
lcukyes timoph and that ontop of a senbile vendor setup would do that14:40
StskeepsJaffa: right14:40
infobotlcuk meant: yes timoph and that ontop of a sensible vendor setup would do that14:40
JaffaStskeeps: Perhaps it'snotpossible to fix without eother a wholesale fork, abandonning compatibility, only doing minor patches or fixing "upstream"14:40
X-FadeI'd rather see a restructure than a fork.14:41
timophJaffa: typing on a n950? :p14:41
lcukX-Fade, ++14:41
X-FadeBut yeah, things like not having an active TSG, invisible working groups etc, doesn't give a good impression atm.14:42
lcuknow for a long while lbt has been discussing the reference vendor14:42
StskeepsX-Fade: WG's aren't invisible actually, at least IVI and TV14:42
X-FadeStskeeps: There are more :)14:42
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X-FadeAnd architect decisions aren't exactly discussed in public either?14:43
slaineIT seems like the meego core stuff is still very much handled behind closed doors14:43
lcukX-Fade, like the irc stats we see, based on discussions in this channel only14:43
Jaffatimoph: iPad ;-)14:43
lcukwhen we know that around the meegosphere many people are advancing and discussing things14:43
lcukJaffa, meego run on it yet?14:43
* Jaffa thinks the "a project based on MeeGo Core" idea has legs14:44
JaffaHas to eat lunch first14:44
timophtake the core and build a communnity distro on top of that14:45
Jaffalcuk: No, but it's nicely jailbroken now14:45
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sivanglcuk: I am about to create a QDeclartiveView app that will drink its qml off a web service, but wanted to intsall skype14:45
sivanglcuk: or a youtube app if that alread exists.14:45
lcuktimoph, n9x0-ce14:45
sivangtimoph: you mean provide more than reference UX ontop of the meego compliant core?14:45
lcukalready exists14:45
lcukand is the sort of model required?14:46
timophlcuk: exactly but with a wider scope14:46
lcukindeed - the meego-ce or formeego-ce14:46
sivangso ce is the UX on top of the DE?14:46
* sivang been away for a bit.14:46
lcuksivang, Developer Edition transmogrified into Community-Edition14:46
lcukand with the N950 coming out, its scope slightly wdened to put effort to N9x0-ce14:47
JaffaCordia too14:47
lcukbut I see no reason why MeeGo-CE shouldn't come from it14:47
JaffaMultiple UXes around an open project with third party apps which is MeeGo Compliant and open processes14:47
Jaffalcuk: Exactly.14:48
* timoph nods14:48
lcuk3rd party apps, we also need first party apps14:48
Jaffalcuk: But it treats the Handset UX as separate upstreams14:48
Jaffas/it treats/it would treat/14:49
infobotJaffa meant: lcuk: But it would treat the Handset UX as separate upstreams14:49
sivanglcuk: what's not enough in DE?14:49
lcukas an example, how would formeego handle skype?14:49
slaineAren't you describing what we have already with the CE work ?14:49
Jaffalcuk: How is handling Skype?14:49
lbtlcuk: don't go there.... same way as it handles MS Word....14:49
slaineI'm failing to see any difference.14:50
* sivang wants to read about DE vs. CE14:50
lcukit is a question we would need14:50
Jaffaslaine: Sort of, yes. Using that as a model to the next logical step14:50
lcukelse how would the technical group handle video conferencing?14:50
lcuk *grin*14:50
X-FadeDon't forget the problem we have is even about 'free' software.14:50
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X-FadeThe non-free software part is a whole different thing.14:50
lcukX-Fade, the problem may be open software14:50
Jaffalcuk: ForMeeGo is successful when a MeeGo device, with its vendor-specific UI, is built on ForMeeGo14:51
lcukbut we must consider closed software too14:51
slaineThe problem is as it's always been, community repos14:51
X-Fadelcuk: I was not considering that at all for meego.14:51
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RST38hX-Fade: You should.14:51
lcukRST38h, \o14:51
X-Fadejust OSI licensed software was scary enough.14:51
RST38hX-Fade: Or I will have to bring up my own repo =)14:52
Jaffalcuk: ForMeeGo would provide the open base and drop-in ecosystem for vendors14:52
X-FadeRST38h: Go ahead.14:52
slaineI fail to see why it needs to be a fork/rebase14:52
Jaffaslaine: It's not.14:52
X-FadeA restructure only works if the people involved want it.14:52
slainesurely it should be a supplemental layer that a user can add to their device, if the vendor allows adding 3rd party repos14:52
lcukaren't we around meego to try and work together14:53
X-FadeSo far this has been a very quiet subject.14:53
lcukslaine, that sounds reasonable14:53
Jaffaslaine: It takes MeeGo Core as an upstream and provides the openness and ecosystemm that MeeGo is currently lacking and has no desire to (seemingly) have14:53
slaineJaffa, yeah, I get that. But how is that different to the n9x0-ce ? And nobody considers that a fork/rebase14:54
Jaffaslaine: As mentioned, a restructure/fix of The MeeGo Project requires the participation of those leading the project.14:54
Jaffaslaine: It's exactly similar to N9x0-CE, but wider in scope.14:55
Jaffaslaine: It's a fork of all the layers of the MeeGo *Project* above Core. Not a fork of Core code14:55
lcukJaffa, you call it a fork14:56
lcukit was described as a reference vendor14:56
slaineWell, from where I'm standing, MeeGo Core is the only remaining "closed" element of The MeeGo Project, not the IVI, TV, Handset/N9x0 layers. So basing a ForMeeGo project off that is already going down the same roads14:56
lcuksince that is what needs reproducing for every vertical14:56
Jaffaslaine: Fair point14:56
slaineAnd by closed, I mean there's no transparency to architecturall decisions.14:57
Stskeepsslaine: i wouldn't mind a Core WG tbh..14:57
slaineWe're told via the meego-dev mailing list that things are happening, but never get to see the discussions behind it.14:57
Jaffaslaine: OK, so fixing that requires the restructuring/fixing of the existing Project14:58
slaineso again, I'm failing to see how a ForMeeGo release, based on MeeGo Core, would be anything more than another UX project layer like what we already have and are encouraged to do.14:58
slaine(slow typing, sorry)14:58
lbtwhat packages should come out of core then?14:58
JaffaSomething being attempted, but when the project owners don't come fwd to kick off the discussions, that seems unlikel14:59
dm8tbrAs the person that was pushing the forMeeGo subject and owns the domain I'd like to add that I see the community as an symbiotic part together with the 'business thing' that is the MeeGo Project they should form the larger thing that is the real MeeGo that lives and evolves14:59
Jaffaslaine: Agreed. But layers *below* Core seem open14:59
Stskeepslbt: everything up to what delivers meego api14:59
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Stskeeps(a functional)14:59
slaineJaffa, in principal, that's upstream for the projects, but I get your point15:00
lbtname 1015:00
lbtemacs .... 9 to go15:00
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Stskeepslbt: qt and dependancy ggraph of that, systemd and uxlaunch :P15:00
lbtQt not in core?15:00
lbtuxlaunch,... OK15:00
JaffaOh, was answering a different question ;-)15:00
slainedm8tbr: that's basically where I was coming from with my "supplemental layer" bit above15:00
Stskeepsmy list is meego core15:00
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lbtI just need a small number of glaring extras15:01
dm8tbrslaine: just that this ain't a layer cake. For business success and devices, MeeGo needs the 'business thing' side of things. But for that to exist it MUST also have the community that works with it (cf. reference vendor, etc)15:01
dm8tbrit is more of a one begets the other circle15:02
slainedm8tbr: yes, I was just about to comment on the dangers of layer cake15:02
slaineand breaking up the lower part of the stack, MeeGo Core, into sub-layers is going to lead to that too15:02
slaineimho, the Community as a Reference Vendor approach makes the most sense15:03
vvaltoneYes, quickly.. add as much GPLv3 as possible15:04
slaineto give it that broader scope over the n9x0-ce project that Jaffa was talking about15:04
lcukslaine, ++15:04
lcukand what we had been heading towards anyway15:05
dm8tbrslaine: the CE shares aspects of the forMeeGo story and should be part of it IMHO15:05
lcukthe ce is gives the stage to allow formeego in light of yesterdays announcement15:05
lcukwhat ^15:05
slainedm8tbr: I guess thats the point we're all agreeing on, the vector on how to achieve it is where we're getting muddled.15:06
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lcukJaffa, to show the -ce or even formeego itself would work requires packaging for meego15:06
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lcukand unlike recent very quick starting around harmattan15:07
Jaffaslaine: I suppose the advantage of treating Core as an upstream of ForMeeGo is that it acknowledges that it's a closed box and we can't do anything about it. That's why I suggest it's a project fork/reference vendor/ecosystem in a box.15:07
lcukwe need apps actually being made for meego15:07
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lcukhow much scope is there still to simply reference a maemo repository?15:08
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dm8tbrit's really not that hard. it should draw a lot on the pictures of opensuse, fedora and the likes15:08
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dm8tbrbesides, this, exactly, what lbt just said!15:09
slaineI think we're put in a logistical tight spot with the LF rejection of rather than a philosophical one. We've all known that getting the extras/garage/surrounds issue resolved would be difficult, it's taken us a year and a half to get here. Having LF endorse it would have been a life saver, but we're now back to the mercy of strangers to get an infrastructure in place that can manage this service now.15:09
* sivang a bit confused at the discussion not sure what's the midpoint.15:09
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lcukquestion: does the meego-ce currently have apps. beta repositories enabled?15:10
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Jaffalcuk: I doubt it as there's no way of getting apps into apps-testing or apps yet15:10
dm8tbrslaine: AFAICT the infrastructure is on it's way and the LF actually will endores it, they just don't want the legal obligation of hosting the website15:10
lcukJaffa, so it is vapourware still15:11
Jaffadm8tbr: Which, bluntly, doesn't make sense15:11
lcukhow about we get apps up and running15:11
Jaffalcuk: I imagine a lot of it is paused until was resolved. Unfortunately, it wasn't15:11
dm8tbrJaffa: it does, more than you think15:12
lcukwell a good start by app developers is actually going the extra bit and making their apps work on meego-ce15:12
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sivanganyone care to reference me to an ml thread about this?15:12
dm8tbrslaine: meego-community15:12
lcukotherwise we are dicsussing a nothingness because there are no apps to infringe15:13
Jaffadm8tbr: Really? Having a third party website which links to (which is also HTTP accessible) which contains the scary source code & binaries provides sufficient legal indemnification?15:13
slainelcuk: ok, my Broadcom driver rpm, probably a good example of something that LF would never allow to be hosted15:13
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Jaffalcuk: apps are already being built on COBS and put into, as you know15:14
dm8tbrJaffa: that is the other elephant in the room, if you scream louder they will pull teh plug today15:14
lcukJaffa, I know15:14
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Jaffadm8tbr: Right, which is why the argument doesn't make sense. So it's either the lawyers are talking without knowledge/filtering/correction, or it's political15:15
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X-FadeJaffa: linking to a app which contains problematic things already puts them at risk.15:15
X-FadeJaffa: And that is just a link on the website.15:16
Jaffadm8tbr: So, as I said, the argument doesn't make sense. Understanding the position, what might happen next and what the Project leadership think about it cuts to the heart of the matter15:16
javispedrodispatch another iteration of an sbdmock based autobuilder and host it on!15:16
* javispedro hides15:16
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dm8tbrJaffa: it makes sense, the lawyer drafting this was not aware of COBS, else it would be offline by now.15:16
Jaffajavispedro: OBS works well (it seemes), the problem are the build agents and output. Who pays? Who manages?15:17
X-Fadejavispedro: We're not that far off.15:17
dm8tbrJaffa: I see it as highly likely that we will need to move COBS to forMeeGo at some point15:17
X-Fadejavispedro: Actually an OBS hosted there yeah.15:17
X-FadeI already ordered some servers for it, just in case.15:17
Jaffadm8tbr: Right, which is where this starts getting expensive real-quick15:17
dm8tbrJaffa: what X-Fade said15:18
* lcuk wanders off to try and fix bug 2009915:18
MeeGoBotBug nor, High, ---, geoff, NEW, [CE] Calculator crashes after pressing any button and then "." .15:18
dm8tbroooh, that url  looks promising15:18
JaffaX-Fade: Being paid for, managed and owned by whom?15:18
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timophlbt: you publish those faster that I can read them :)15:18
X-FadeJaffa: Nokia is paying the bill for it now, to bootstrap it.15:18
lbtthey've been weeks in the writing timoph15:19
X-FadeJaffa: They feel that meego needs a community offering.15:19
* dm8tbr encourages everyone here to read -- especially those that think that MeeGo should be completely community driven.15:19
javispedrobtw, what's on ?15:19
X-FadeJaffa: Hoping that it enough to bootstrap and others will chip in later.15:19
JaffaX-Fade: Right15:20
timophdm8tbr: imho it shouldn't be just community driven but it needs the community layer - the reference vendor / community edition story..15:21
dm8tbrtimoph: exactly15:21
dm8tbrtimoph: just drop the layer bit15:21
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X-FadeJaffa: dm8tbr and I have already setup dns for so we can point to whatever we need.15:22
Jaffadm8tbr: Who's said "community-driven"? AFAICT, the talk has been about openness, predictability and increasing attractivness to vendors by providing an ecosystem-in-a-box they can differentiate with their own UX15:22
dm8tbrJaffa: it may not have been explicitly stated, but I have been sensing the misunderstanding that lbt addresses in that posting many times.15:24
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slainelbt: just finished reading those, +1 for everything. I've the same opinions15:26
dm8tbropen ended devices like N900, N9(50) or the various Archos generations are really just the side-show, the playground for us the community. This is very important, but not for Vendors. Vendors can benefit though by e.g. recruiting out of the community or drawing on the open source projects in the community.15:27
Stskeepslbt: hope you'll send urls fo those to meego-dev@15:27
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lbtStskeeps: yeah .. it's about time ...15:27
timophlbt: s/DE/CE/ :)15:27
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lbttimoph: shit... did I correct it the wrong way :)15:28
* Stskeeps heads out to his accountant15:28
lbtStskeeps: I wanted to wait for apps to settle down ... silly15:28
lbtshoulda posted-early, posted often :15:28
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SpeedEvildm8tbr: To a degree.15:32
SpeedEvildm8tbr: There are plenty of phones with crappy clone OSs coming out of china.15:32
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SpeedEvilHardware is improving fast enough that it's not going to be that long until CE/DE are a sane alternative to rolling your own crappy OS15:33
dm8tbrSpeedEvil: yes, but devices do not necessarily need to be 'hackable'. that is a misconception. It is great if they are and I encourage people to vote with their wallet for those15:33
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lbtfinal one ... for now
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dm8tbrlbt: thanks for putting so much time and effort into this15:35
lbtwell, as I mention ... I had help from community reviewers :)15:35
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dm8tbrnotwithstanding, thanks15:36
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slaineafternoon CosmoHill15:56
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* CosmoHill goes out to make himself dapper16:05
CosmoHill(I've not worn smart trousers or shirts since highschool)16:05
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berndhsCosmoHill: don't make a habit out of it now, you have a reputation to uphold16:08
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lcukberndhs, he might look good dressing in a habit16:12
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berndhsperhaps, but then they might brand him as a religious extremist16:14
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slaineIn Qt Creator, can I break out the Help window to a separate window ?16:18
* slaine is new to Qt16:18
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lcukthe OBS builder is quite adept16:39
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lcukbut does t trigger rebuilds after every single file uploaded?16:40
X-Fadelcuk: After every 'package' revision.16:40
X-Fadelcuk: When using web client, each upload is a revision.16:40
lcukX-Fade, so whenusing the webservice to upload a single file16:40
lcukit becomes a revision16:40
X-FadeUsing the osc tool is better :)16:41
lcukindeed it is16:41
lcukbut learning to walk first16:41
berndhsthe webclient is cool even if you use the cli tool, lets you watch what it's doing16:42
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lcukX-Fade, the webclient logic is similar to normal maemo autobuilder16:43
X-Fadelcuk: Yes and no :)16:43
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lcukX-Fade, do we know how many pure native qt apps exist on maemo?  as in ones without explicit maemoisms16:56
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paviguys tried out Meego CE on N900 , quite nice UI but the touch response is slow ,what might be the reason ?17:07
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Stskeepsgive it a bit to rest, first boot is always slow due to media indexing17:09
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rafael2khi people,17:18
rafael2kcan anyone tell me if the N950 has a FM receiver?17:18
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lcuklol arfoll vgrade17:26
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rafael2kis it true that n950 has a fm transmitter but it does not come with a transmitt antenna?17:27
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dm8tbrrafael2k: the wifi chip has that functionality in theory.17:28
rafael2klets see if nokia deliver my N950 soon in order to put my hands on this17:29
dm8tbrrafael2k: unless i2s and antenna is wired to it, it will just not work.17:29
rafael2kdm8tbr:  :/17:29
dm8tbrFM is so 80s17:29
rafael2kit could be a good hw mod to enable the fm tx17:29
dm8tbrsure if you are into BGA reballing17:30
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rafael2kit's the chip pin available for soldering?17:30
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dm8tbrrafael2k: all the major ICs are BGA on nowadays devices, no, chance, in, hell.17:31
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dm8tbrtimoph: yes, take a guess why I said that :D17:32
rafael2kdm8tbr: ok. is this information about the fm tx confirmed?17:34
dm8tbrrafael2k: what do you mean by 'this'?17:34
rafael2kdm8tbr: the unconnected fm tx issue17:34
dm8tbrrafael2k: no, ask nokia for a schematic.17:35
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rafael2khopefully someone will disassembly a N950 for us17:36
rafael2kand with regards to the fm rx, it it working as expected?17:37
timophit is ^17:37
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rafael2kGreat. My project is related to FM/RDS.17:38
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javispedrorafael2k: rds does work:
javispedroaudio, on the other side...17:48
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rafael2kjavispedro: this is good news17:58
rafael2kjavispedro: I hope audio works also...17:58
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rafael2kjavispedro: do you think the fm audio issue can be solved or the issue seems a hw problem?18:00
javispedrono idea until I have schematic18:00
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javispedrosome nokian said fmrx should work, so I'd bet it's sw.18:01
rafael2khow about USB hostmode, any idea? I really like this functionality in my N90018:02
lcukif I wanted to try and use the meego-app-calculator on harmattan18:03
lcukdo I jnust need to add a .dsc file?18:03
Stskeeps-app is more difficult, it uses meego-ux-components18:03
lcukor does it need a whole debian subfolder/tar.gz18:03
lcukwell that is a technical issue only really?18:04
lcuksince harmattan is meego 1.218:04
lcukand these components are in meego 1.218:04
javispedrorafael2k: you should ask this stuff on #harmattan18:04
vgrade_lcuk, ?18:04
lcukvgrade_, I was giggling at what you retweeted18:04
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rafael2kjavispedro: ok18:04
vgrade_ah, yes, very funny OBS joke18:05
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* lcuk moves onto another bug19:36
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CosmoHillIt's 29.7C in my bedroom19:38
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lcukcrikey CosmoHill19:41
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aukeCosmoHill: not cool19:46
Stskeepsmorn auke19:47
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lcukso I am sat here with 3 devices with meego instances on them20:01
lcukhow do they work together?20:01
lcukif I am reading a book on one20:01
lcukcan it be continued on another?20:01
lcukwhen I make notes on the laptop, can they be available on the others?20:01
lcukw00t_, this is the sort of problem you have tinkered with I believe20:02
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lcuki ask because I am wanting to read a book and have same document on all machines20:06
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lcukawesome, 50 new n950 devices from Nokia20:12
lcukDDP moreso20:12
* lcuk stops talking to himself20:12
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Stskeeps50 new devices?20:13
maligorprobably found in some developers closet20:13
maligorwhile excavating after the battle of elop20:14
maligoror atleast I assumed they weren't manufacturing them?-)20:14
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* CosmoHill cackles cos the number of minutes he has has just doubled20:23
CosmoHillnow if only I had someone to phone :(20:23
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lcukberndhs, too complex for muggles20:47
lcukgood idea though (ssh-fs)20:47
berndhsbetter solution than NFS for small networks20:47
berndhsand its in the meego repos20:48
lcukberndhs, installation is one thing20:48
lcukensuring that real people can configure it is another20:48
berndhsrc.local :)20:49
berndhseven systemd supports rc.local, I think20:49
lcukberndhs, i don't even know what rc.local is20:49
berndhsit is the tail end of the boot sequence, you can put your own scripts there20:50
lcukberndhs, could your parents?20:50
berndhswell, not any more, they finished booting anything soem years ago20:50
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lcukberndhs, :( but you understand the intent20:51
berndhsbut you could configure it for the non-technical people in the family, they won't even know its there20:51
berndhstheir devices just see soem shared directories20:51
lcukdirectories? I see sketches and books :P20:52
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berndhsthsoe are stored in directories20:52
berndhswhether the users know it or not20:52
berndhsthe devices sees that its shared, the user doesn't20:53
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berndhsthere shouldn't be a central app store for all of meego, there should be a whole pile of them20:56
berndhscompetition is healthy20:56
timophwho said that there's going to be a central repo for all of meego?20:57
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berndhsthe complaint is that there isn't20:58
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berndhsbecause LF won't do it20:58
timophit's not just about repos20:58
berndhsso best thing is to make independent ones20:58
wmaronehow about instead of all this "formeego" stuff, why not just create an actual "compliant" derivative of MeeGo with standard repositories and a "store" of sorts?20:58
timophbesides I really don't want to see the mess maemo had with repositories before n90020:58
wmaronesomething with its own name20:58
berndhsright its not just about repos, that's why I said "app store"20:58
berndhsthere should be more than one oil company, more than one refrigerator company, more than one app store20:59
timophwell. not a store. It also host community made meego builds for different devices that the official builds don't support etc21:00
timophbut as I see it formeego isn't stopping anyone from setting up their own stuff21:00
berndhsindeed, if someone wants to, nobody can stop them21:01
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w00t_lcuk: do you know what a document oriented store/database is?21:10
Robot101its a paradigm21:13
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w00t_(drink? :P)21:14
lcukw00t_, informal database21:15
w00t_lcuk: right, pretty much21:16
* lcuk had experience with basics of them21:16
w00t_lcuk: what i've done is to tack some metadata on top of that and write something which is capable of using that to send changes around different devices using link-local discovery21:16
lcukw00t_, link local is only one part of it21:17
lcukafter (for instance, using real uses case) tracy sets off for morrisons21:17
lcukand she forgot something on the shopping list21:17
w00t_lcuk: yes, I do plan to add other distribution methods over time, they're just not a priority for now21:17
w00t_so that's still very technically possible21:17
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lcukso a lan cloud database21:18
lcukdoes each client have to always retain entire copy21:18
lcukor does the syncing attempt to pull everything together?21:18
w00t_it acts as a mesh, so you can have two completely different devices merge together21:19
ali1234"document oriented database" is a completely meaningless set of buzzwords which was invented to promote couchdb21:19
lcukw00t_, consider a group of sketches21:19
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lcukor contacts21:19
lcukbut contacts are less issue because you generally do not create new ones every few minutes21:19
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lcukw00t_, 3 machines, machine1..2..3 etc21:20
ali1234couchdb is exactly like every other database ever made, except instead of using SQL, you query it using a json api over http21:20
lcukeach might have a set of sketches growing constantly21:20
lcukali1234, NoQL also21:21
lcukw00t_, knowing which set of devices have the data on is a tough problem to overcome21:21
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w00t_lcuk: ah, i get what you're meaning, but no, they'd each have copies of them21:22
lcukwhen you do load banacing clusters online, generally you still need one index node21:22
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ali1234you're right, it is tough. which is why couchdb doesn't attempt to solve it at all21:22
ali1234instead, you're expected to sync the entire database file yourself21:22
lcukali1234, couchdb is one example, just talking problem through21:22
ali1234which would work exactly as well using sqlite, or mysql21:22
w00t_I didn't want to do that sort of thing at all because these are still very much about wandering off solo/mobile, disconnected from the rest of the devices, and then wander back and say hello to them21:22
ali1234which is why everyone is now dropping couchdb for sqlite21:22
ali1234...because sqlite actually works, and isn't just a bunch of buzzwords21:23
ali1234couchdb and the whole "nosql" movement in general is a great example of being different purely for the sake of it21:24
lcukw00t_, i think a pseudo domain controller machine on the lan would be practical way to solve it21:24
ali1234the developers decided they don't like SQL, and therefore decided that *anything* must be better21:24
lcukeach device as in your contacts example syncs to that one21:24
lcukeven if the data comes from some other machine21:24
w00t_lcuk: it doesn't need one21:24
w00t_any device can connect to any other device and happily catch up21:25
lcukw00t_, indeed a binary pair works, but when it expands to 3..n devices it becomes a problem to know where update means21:28
w00t_lcuk: it handles that21:29
lcukdoes the client share key field details of everybody it knows?21:29
lcukor how does it know what data to download?21:29
* lcuk once did data sync between whole store group computers and head offices21:30
w00t_well, there's two different mechanisms, document store (which we've talked about so far), and directory tree synchronisation, which is much more WIP21:30
w00t_document store keeps a set of metadata per-object (and in the future, per-field) like last modified timestamp and hash, and does magic to know what has changed between devices, and resolve collisions by using the most up to date copy21:31
lcukw00t_, that is entirely the issue, "most upto date might have to be recalculated over practically the entire dataset21:32
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lcukwithout some machine knowing the leading edge21:32
w00t_no, as it only exchanges metadata21:32
lcukit becomes like a git problem21:32
w00t_I don't think I understand your concern, perhaps I'm not being overly clear too, but a lot of this only exists in my head or in a very messy scratchpad, I've not often tried to explain it21:34
ali1234while you try to figure out the "best" way to solve this problem using buzzwords, normal people are just putting the sqlite.db into their dropbox and finding it works just fine21:34
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lcukthe computers there are on the same lan21:35
lcuki draw a new sketch on today21:35
lcuki think I need a central server to sync the new sketch to all of them21:35
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w00t_how many sketches do you have, total?21:35
lcukright now, 9000ish21:36
* w00t_ calculates21:36
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w00t_I imagine these are stored as individual files21:36
lcukbut that obviously does not include the other things tags photos bookpositions notes etc21:36
w00t_all in one directory, or (preferred) multiple trees? i.e. 2011/07/3/<something>.sketch21:37
lcuki have /cal    /sketches   /tags   /photos etc21:37
lcukeach file is datestamped21:38
lcukit would be trivial to use folder structure as you state though21:38
lcukthough would slow down startup time ;)21:38
lcukw00t_, the problem scope is simple with a few files, just tar.gz the folder tree and mirror contents, but at some point the amount of meta data being sent becomes non trivial21:39
w00t_ok, fine. the way directory sync will work is that metadata will be stored at the directory level (i.e. a hash), when devices first meet up, they'll say "hey, /sketches has a hash of <foo>, how's yours?", if they match, nothing happens, so you've only had a ~20 byte transfer.. if they don't match, each side will exchange metadata on each file, and handle healing any differences (via simple differencing too, so if you have a large file you append21:39
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lcuksounds reasonable indeed21:40
w00t_the metadata for each file is.. um. filename (say, 12 bytes), plus 8 byte filesize, plus a sha-1 hash21:40
lcukwould that work in an even more general sense for entire user profile sync?21:40
w00t_'user profile' like settings, data, etc?21:41
w00t_that's why i originally started to write it21:41
lcukharmattan natively (and in hardware) stores sha1 hashes does it not?21:41
lcukie can we get that part "for free" from the os?21:41
w00t_the directory tree part comes in because I want to sync photos between my mobile and laptop (say)21:41
w00t_I haven't looked at putting it on harmattan much - yet21:42
w00t_I want to get directory trees finished first21:42
w00t_as in, written and working :)21:42
lcukof course21:42
w00t_I have the theory behind it21:42
w00t_I just need to make it work21:42
* lcuk nods21:42
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lcukw00t_, I was tinkering with php server and made the push part of calendar sync work21:43
lcuki even made the server return sketches as .png files for building my diary/blog page21:44
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lcuki keep trying to do it without needing the server21:44
Stskeepswhy not just rsync21:44
lcukthere are so many places in the world without internet21:44
ali1234why not just git?21:44
w00t_Stskeeps: directed at me?21:45
w00t_Stskeeps: rsync can't handle deletes properly21:45
w00t_you either know which direction you have to sync in (and lose changes on one side) or you ignore that and get stuff you deleted come back, etc21:45
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lcukw00t_, where are you doing the sync stuff, I am sure some folks might want to follow its progress and may have more ideas21:49
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pavizypper update on meego CE for N900 gave me error building cache21:54
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paviwarning : disabling repo oss  1.2 daily because repo type cant be determined21:56
paviI did a zypper clean and zypper update , no use21:56
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* CosmoHill puts on a shirt and tie after many years and several attempts23:50
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berndhsthe necktie - a symbolic noose ?23:52
CosmoHillI've not worn a shirt and tie since highschool in 200523:53
berndhsI haven't worn a necktie since before you were born probably23:53
CosmoHillmaybe, UK highschool finishes at 1623:54
berndhsactually wayyyy before you were born :)23:54
CosmoHillI could do with a wider neck shirt tbh, nothing relaxes your nerves in an interview like feeling like you can't breath properly23:58

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