IRC log of #meego for Wednesday, 2011-06-22

lcuk	right	00:00
lcuk	so like the n9 will have its own	00:00
alterego	meh	00:00
lbt_nur	different	00:00
lcuk	not really	00:00
lcuk	n9 is a meego vendor	00:00
lcuk	err	00:00
lcuk	your know	00:00
lbt_nur	n9 is not a meego.com project and nothing to do with us	00:00
lcuk	more complete example of full vendor though	00:00
lbt_nur	well, insofar as it's secret, yes	00:01
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lcuk	heh	00:01
lbt_nur	so it is almost impossible to see how nokia as a vendor relates to meego	00:01
lbt_nur	same goes for any other real vendor	00:01
lbt_nur	too many commercial issues to allow open operations	00:01
lbt_nur	so the CE project can 'pretend' to be a vendor	00:01
lcuk	a kickstart proto-vendor!	00:02
lbt_nur	can say "hey guys, if you join meego, this is how you'll be treated"	00:02
lbt_nur	(currently ignored and sidelined ;) )	00:02
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lbt_nur	(small exagerration there)	00:02
lcuk	not ignored!	00:02
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lcuk	the nokia meego is boiled down goodness from all the community ideas	00:02
RST38h	lcuk: what makes you say that?	00:03
lbt_nur	OTOH talk to them about why CE and UX have different policies for release-blocker bugs	00:03
lcuk	i see elements from contributions I see from most people around in it	00:03
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lcuk	RST38h, half of the layouts are polished up from things wazd posted etc	00:03
javispedro	mooouuhh	00:03
lbt_nur	lcuk: mmm not sure I'd tout that as "a good thing"	00:04
alterego	And they stole my qml dialer	00:04
alterego	I'm just kidding	00:04
lbt_nur	unless royalties are flowing or they released under cc-sa	00:04
javispedro	alterego: sue them! this could you get a headstart in the race to the developer n950!	00:04
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lcuk	lbt_nur, I am going to be reminded every day of my graffiti wall on that ui	00:04
lcuk	because that is the app list	00:04
alterego	They stole Columbus' swipe though :)	00:04
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lcuk	your latest app is in the top left	00:05
lcuk	;)	00:05
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lcuk	was amongst the first thing I said when I showed very first liqbase video	00:05
RST38h	android swipe you mean?	00:05
alterego	I only want the N9 to play nagry birds on it	00:05
alterego	angry ~	00:06
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lcuk	lbt_nur, but that is "open source" isn't it?	00:06
lbt_nur	lcuk: no, that's bsd-licensed	00:07
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hiemanshu	alterego: I'd prefer an iPad 2 with mirror display for angry birds :D	00:07
lcuk	lbt_nur, I saw a windows phone ui written in qml	00:07
Yugobear	Still banned here I presume?	00:07
lcuk	quick mockup	00:07
lbt_nur	sure ... qml is LGPL	00:07
alterego	ipads are shit	00:08
alterego	A tablet without a USB port, pfft.	00:08
lbt_nur	and anyhow ... we're talking ideas, design... not code	00:08
lcuk	i mean that in the, somebody just wrote one and made his symbian phone look likq wp	00:08
javispedro	alterego: it has its own peripherals port	00:08
lcuk	mm yeah	00:08
lcuk	I agree	00:08
javispedro	alterego: propietary	00:08
alterego	lcuk: that was cool :)	00:08
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alterego	javispedro: that doesn't help me copy or view images from my memory stick does it	00:09
alterego	Or my SD cards.	00:09
javispedro	alterego: oh it does	00:09
lcuk	lbt_nur, i believe in fairness and there should be a way to do things without patents	00:09
javispedro	alterego: but you enter a world of vendor lock-in, etc. etc.	00:09
lcuk	but I very well may be patenting many things in the near future	00:09
javispedro	alterego: see http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/adapters.jpg	00:09
lcuk	i have a whole warhouse of unpublished code	00:09
lcuk	warehouse even ;)	00:09
lbt_nur	lcuk: as good a way to waste money as doing the lottery I guess	00:10
alterego	lcuk: patent where? We don't have s/w patents in Europe ;)	00:10
berndhs	lcuk: let's just hope that code doesn't violate existing patents :)	00:10
alterego	I'm pretty happy with prior art, I'd only patent something if I could resell it, to a lot of people.	00:10
lcuk	alterego, tell that to people who write uk employment contracts then	00:10
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Did you have a "MeeGo Compliant" app in mind, btw for your Harmattan compatibility challenge?	00:11
lcuk	but anyway, I need to find a way where I can concntrate on producing apps from my sketches	00:11
lcuk	I see a need to make qt based implementation of a couple of key things to allow me to do this	00:12
alterego	You need some framework code ported to Qt you mean?	00:12
alterego	Anyone here with ops?	00:12
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alterego	Does anyone want to drop a 4 month old ban on DrGov?	00:13
alterego	DrGrov even.	00:13
Yugobear	Thanks alterego	00:14
dhd	is there any workaround for the crash when no sound card is available? ( https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11367 )	00:14
MeeGoBot	Bug 11367 cri, High, ---, kevron_m_rees, VERI FIXED, sysuid crashed if there is no sound hardware available, and caused duihome to crash (black screen in	00:14
Qantourisc	I have many "end user" questsion, where can I get answers ?	00:14
lcuk	nn	00:15
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alterego	DawnFoster: do you have #meego ops?	00:17
DawnFoster	alterego: yep	00:17
alterego	Could you unban DrGrov?	00:18
alterego	He had a 4 month ago ban for acting out after Feb 11	00:18
alterego	He's very sorry :)	00:18
DawnFoster	ha :)	00:18
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DawnFoster	hmmm, I never really unban people	00:19
DawnFoster	and I'm in the middle of something	00:19
alterego	m'kay	00:19
DawnFoster	volunteer?	00:19
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lbt_nur	Jaffa: ffs... just read your LWN post	00:20
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Jaffa	lbt_nur: Not good?	00:21
lbt_nur	yours was	00:21
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lbt_nur	the "lets kill meego" post wasn't so much	00:21
lbt_nur	s/kill/damage/	00:22
infobot	lbt_nur meant: the "lets damage meego" post wasn't so much	00:22
javispedro	lbt_nur: just grab until engadget runs it	00:22
javispedro	s/grab/wait	00:22
GeneralAntilles	Kill! Kill!	00:22
lbt_nur	yep .... "MeeGo architect rejects Nokia devices"	00:22
GeneralAntilles	It only makes sense.	00:23
lbt_nur	N9 is not a mass market device ...	00:23
lbt_nur	N9 is not a mass market MeeGo device ...	00:23
lbt_nur	the ... WeTb is ...	00:23
lbt_nur	goddam laptop is a pita for typing ... I'll shut up now	00:23
Jaffa	...poorly received in its only market (.de)	00:24
wmarone	on top of the fact that handsets are absolutely not tablets	00:24
RST38h	So, once again, what is all that controversy about "rejecting" N9?	00:24
lbt_nur	yeah... who needs mass market appeal to succceed? we have systemd!!!	00:24
Jaffa	And there is mpre doversoty on handsets than tablets in terms of acceptable OSes	00:24
Yugobear	N9? What do you guys think about it?	00:25
lbt_nur	https://lwn.net/Articles/448590/	00:25
GeneralAntilles	RST38h, that MeeGo.com (particularly people from Intel) seem to want to have nothing to do with Nokia and the N9.	00:25
Jaffa	Silly iPad keyboard in SSH app	00:25
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Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: That's overly harsh	00:25
lbt_nur	RST38h: we have a phrase "Cutting your nose off to spite your face"	00:25
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, probably.	00:26
* GeneralAntilles will leave it to better folks to discuss.		00:26
RST38h	With all due respect, the proper-meego.com people have nothing to say until there is at least one usable handset running proper-meego.	00:26
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Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: But arjan's pretty aenior in the project & Intel, so it's unfortunate he doesn't seem to be on-board	00:27
RST38h	Until then, Maemo6 is the closest it gets to Meego right now =(	00:27
RST38h	Although yes, I also think Nokia should have continue calling it Maemo6, to make it clear what the device is based on.	00:27
lbt_nur	mmm hindsight makes you wonder if Ari's comment at the time wasn't a "mistake"	00:28
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dm8tbr	RST38h: absolutely, but I'm trying to see the positive side too	00:29
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dm8tbr	RST38h: now I can call anything I want MeeGo, compliance? what is that?	00:29
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wmarone	dm8tbr: no, you can't. unless you suddenly became the linux foundation.	00:29
toninikkanen	it's funny how people inside nokia even don't know what's the difference between maemo and meego	00:29
RST38h	dm8tbr: Reality check: how many normal people really care about "meego compliance"?	00:29
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toninikkanen	well the people doing it know, but the rest of the company not	00:30
alterego	toninikkanen: I hope by "some people" you mean the janitor and dinner lady :P	00:30
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RST38h	dm8tr: 2nd check: how many regular app developers care if their hardwre is "meego compliant", as long as they can use it to develop meego apps?	00:30
dm8tbr	wmarone: MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan, that is 'anything' but certainly not compliant	00:30
toninikkanen	by some people i mean most	00:30
alterego	DrGrov: welcome back ;)	00:30
DrGrov	alterego: Thank you, appreciated it	00:30
DrGrov	alterego: :)	00:30
wmarone	dm8tbr: certainly, but only the Linux Foundation can grant license to use it (or exceptions)	00:30
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wmarone	and they aren't obligated to grant another	00:31
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dm8tbr	wmarone: sure, the impression sticks though	00:31
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RST38h	And, once you collect all theinterested parties, you will pretty much get 1) Intel Meego developers 2) A few Linux FOundation people 3) assorted wikipedia nuts	00:31
Damion_	compliance pah	00:31
javispedro	ah, this reminds me I need to spam a wikipedia deletion vote	00:32
Damion_	is this like lsb compliance which seemed to require cups be installed and libgl.so even on a minute headless server install?	00:32
dm8tbr	Damion_: no it's the nokia can ignore compliance and stick meego on a turd	00:33
javispedro	Damion_: and be rpm-based ;P	00:34
javispedro	Damion_: and use sysvinit ;P	00:34
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RST38h	So, what is wrong with sticking meego on a turd? Other than negative publicity, I mean?	00:35
Jaffa	dm8tbr: The N9/Harmattan is a "turd"?	00:35
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dm8tbr	Jaffa: no, I didn't say that, you read it that way	00:35
Jaffa	lbt_nur: Which comment of Ari's?	00:35
Damion_	javispedro: back to sysvinit? what was up with eventd or whatever you call the new way of doing things ?	00:35
dm8tbr	Jaffa: I said 'Nokia can stick meego on ANYTHING without it being compliant'	00:36
javispedro	Damion_: LSB mandates sysvinit initscripts	00:36
Jaffa	dm8tbr: Well, it doean't lokk like Nokia will be doing much else with MeeGo in the short term, so you must have meant someth... ah	00:36
javispedro	Damion_: just using it as another example of ridiculousness	00:36
Damion_	I've got used to apt-get but frankly rpm vs deb doesn't make much difference as a user since yum started to do what apt does	00:36
Damion_	javispedro: ah	00:36
lbt_nur	Jaffa: just calling H 'MeeGo	00:37
dm8tbr	Jaffa: the current hardware is nice, but calling the software meego instead of maemo6 is a stretch	00:37
Jaffa	lbt_nur: Ah	00:37
TSCHAKeee	why are you all being a bunch of pedantic doinks?	00:37
Jaffa	dm8tbr: Not much of one and, IMHO, a stretch which is beneficial to MeeGo	00:37
* andre__ gets some popcorn and watches the channel		00:37
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TSCHAKeee	Nokia finishes an engineering and release cycle, and gets bashed for it.	00:38
dm8tbr	Jaffa: my opinion differs, but I gues only time will tell	00:38
Damion_	somebody must have already compiled meego-terminal and uploaded an http served .deb so I don't have to	00:38
GeneralAntilles	Why wouldn't you leverage this.	00:38
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Jaffa	dm8tbr:My comment on LWN explains my reasoning a little, but it's bed time now	00:38
GeneralAntilles	ENGADGET gave it a positive writeup.	00:38
GeneralAntilles	/ENGADGET/	00:38
Jaffa	Got up early :)	00:39
TSCHAKeee	yes	00:39
Damion_	I've git cloned the latest code but now I have to crosscompile and faff, come on!	00:39
TSCHAKeee	they did	00:39
TSCHAKeee	that's a big boost	00:39
berndhs	yeah, something is wrong here	00:39
dm8tbr	andre__: Larks' tongues. Otters' noses. Ocelot spleens!	00:39
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Maybe only so they cpuld bash Nokia over the core strategy of WP7	00:39
TSCHAKeee	seriously, you all are incredibly self destructive.. take Nokia's N9 for what it is...a meego compatible device.	00:39
andre__	dm8tbr: yeah, life can be dangerous :)	00:40
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, really think they're smart enough to concoct something like that? ;)	00:40
Jaffa	TSCHAKeee: The word "all" there seems remarkably misplaced	00:40
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa: +1	00:40
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: They're not The Register...	00:40
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Damion_	TSCHAKeee: is it compatible? or do you mean /usr/bin/alien ./meego-app.rpm && dpkg -i ./meego-app.deb ? :)	00:41
lbt_nur	Jaffa: ah, I see Dawn is going for the "death by planning" approach to the mail<->forum problem	00:42
GeneralAntilles	Interestingly the blogger who wrote up those silly pieces on the MeeGo conferences is, apparently, the son of The Register founder Mike Magee.	00:42
TSCHAKeee	those things can be dealt with.	00:42
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Damion_	TSCHAKeee: well yeah, such as that. personally I don't care, I still call things Linux rather than by their disribution name. And I actively object to "GNU/Linux"	00:43
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lbt_nur	TSCHAKeee: I think you're misreading it ... most people here are doing that."N9 is good" .... one senior bod in MeeGo.com came out with the negativity... loudly and in public	00:44
lbt_nur	Damion_: GNU/Linux is correct	00:44
TSCHAKeee	lbt_nur: Yes. I read. that is insanely self destructive.	00:44
Damion_	lbt_nur: for some value of correct	00:44
lbt_nur	Damion_: the right one ;)	00:44
TSCHAKeee	it serves no purpose other than to divide people	00:44
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lbt_nur	TSCHAKeee: and that's the point ...	00:44
lbt_nur	I think Jaffa is notifying Imad	00:45
Damion_	back when stallman was touting it as the term to use, my CPU was running through VERY little GNU project code most of the time	00:45
lbt_nur	we should raise this at the very next TSG ..... ROFL	00:45
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Damion_	heck it wasn't even part of the GNU project initially, just licenced with it	00:45
lbt_nur	Damion_: sorry, it was too good a line to miss ;)	00:45
lbt_nur	you can let it go now :D	00:45
lbt_nur	breathe again	00:46
Damion_	:)	00:46
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Damion_	so back to my problem.	00:48
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Damion_	I have an n950 but it's useless to me without a way to ssh. I understand that with the option for installing from elsewhere enabled (which it is via settings), I can go to a url with a .deb and (presumably with the correct mime-type) download and it'll let me install. I want meego-terminal. So I've git clone'd meego-terminal and now have the src. Great. Am I expected to get a VM image of the build env, run a VM (vmware/whatever) build the binaries,	00:51
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Jaffa	Damion_: Hmm, would assume there's a pre-built deb somewhere.	00:52
Damion_	yes, I would, but bing can't find it	00:53
Damion_	I'll try altavista	00:53
Jaffa	Damion_: The FRemantle openssh-server might also work	00:53
wmarone	so are we going to be forced to pass .deb files around or is there a repository with this stuff in it?	00:53
Jaffa	Damion_: ask achipa or vivainio or someone for a deb?	00:53
javispedro	note that /etc/event.d is now /etc/init	00:53
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Jaffa	wmarone: Damion_ And javispedro has scratchbox up & running ;)	00:54
alterego	Damion_: the .deb is probably in the harmattan repositories ..	00:54
Damion_	Jaffa: is it upstart, or am I thinking of macos?	00:55
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Damion_	Jaffa: yeah I had a scratchbox env for fremantle	00:55
alterego	It is upstart	00:55
lbt_nur	err.... OBS	00:56
Damion_	but that was a year ago and I don't think I can boot vmware on the beta kernel work are making me try	00:56
alterego	Rubbish vm software then :P	00:56
alterego	KLKind of makes yVMs pointless.	00:56
javispedro	this reminds me	00:56
lbt_nur	Damion_: Jaffa, OBS builds Harmattan and publishes repos... Apps, PPAs etc	00:56
javispedro	I need a COBS account (finally!)	00:56
Damion_	alterego: newfangled stuff :)	00:56
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Damion_	I still think of cups and alsa as newfangled	00:57
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lbt_nur	javispedro: you know the drill	00:57
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javispedro	lbt_nur: the drill is this I need to file a bug thing?	00:58
alterego	javhahah	00:58
alterego	javispedro: haha, welcome to the dark side :P	00:58
lbt_nur	javispedro: no... just your meego.com account	00:59
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javispedro	lbt_nur: ah, I see. I want COBS, I want it to do OSS dev, and my meego.com username is "javispedro"	00:59
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lbt_nur	yep ... just wanted the account ... a lot don't match irc nicks	01:00
Damion_	OBS?	01:00
MohammadAG	OBS publishes to PPAs? sweet!	01:01
lbt_nur	http://wiki.meego.com/OBS	01:01
lbt_nur	MohammadAG: yup	01:01
lbt_nur	Damion_: kinda like autobuilder++	01:01
javispedro	alterego: well, the dark side powerful is, I have to admit.	01:02
Damion_	lbt_nur: ah	01:02
javispedro	the idea of having to add yet another set of m4 macros to my debian/control files for another maemo version scares me. a lot.	01:02
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javispedro	specially if we start talking about directories being moved.	01:03
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miniMAXIme	hi	01:07
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alterego	Harmattan SDK 50% ...	01:12
javispedro	platform or qt?	01:13
alterego	platform	01:13
alterego	Already got the Qt SDK	01:13
javispedro	alterego: welcome to the light side!	01:14
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alterego	Well, in the absence of a device, I want the emulator so I can see what's inside it :P	01:14
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javispedro	sbox is not an emulator!!	01:14
alterego	Some of it is :P	01:14
javispedro	technically madde comes with one true emulator	01:14
alterego	Does it?	01:14
javispedro	afaik, yes.	01:15
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alterego	Does the harmattan qt sdk have decent emulation support? :)	01:15
alterego	Anyway, scratchbox will be as close to running the thing as I can get right now I reckon	01:15
alterego	Might install it on my exo and see how well it works with a touch screen ;)	01:15
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javispedro	while I can make sbox have decent performance ( I have some crap here that requires patches to xorg itself =) ), gettign decent performance out of qemu is over me	01:16
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javispedro	alterego: btw this is what you're going to get with SDK: http://depot.javispedro.com/nit/harmattansdk/sdk1.png so don't get too excited.	01:17
javispedro	(platform SD)	01:17
javispedro	*SDK	01:17
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alterego	What, no xterm?!	01:17
alterego	;)	01:18
javispedro	meego-terminal wasn't on the repos :S	01:18
alterego	javispedro: I'm more interested in the middle ware anyway.	01:18
alterego	You're shitting me, realy?	01:18
alterego	I'd have expected that to be in there already ..	01:18
mikhas	but you can compile it yourself?	01:18
javispedro	alterego: qemu image might have more stuff. this is same story as with n900.	01:18
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javispedro	qemu/madde image, I mean	01:19
alterego	I could have sworn my fremantle sbox install has xterm :)	01:19
alterego	Anyway, like I said, I'm more interested in the middle ware,	01:19
alterego	qt components, and qwidget, for porting columbus to harmattan	01:19
alterego	Harmattan is a good half-way house for getting Columbus in MeeGo proper from fremantle	01:20
alterego	Just realised, we''ve lost CIR capability too	01:21
wmarone	CIR?	01:21
Damion_	sbox using qemu for binary translation, it's emulatoreque	01:21
alterego	But we have gained (I think) a somewhat easier USB solution	01:21
MohammadAG	no Xbox remote :P	01:21
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berndhs	how does one convert between rpm style changelog and deb style changeslot ?	01:21
Damion_	and as it's in a unix system with X11 and ttys and suchlike it's essentially just like being in an emulated environment	01:21
javispedro	Damion_: the qemu stuff in sbox is utterly broken for any UI use.	01:21
berndhs	s/changeslot/changelog/	01:21
infobot	berndhs meant: how does one convert between rpm style changelog and deb style changelog ?	01:21
alterego	MohammadAG: indeed, I guess I'll have to keep one of my N900s after all ;)	01:21
Damion_	javispedro: yeah?	01:21
javispedro	Damion_: so when people say the "emulated environment" it's not qemu so	01:21
javispedro	sbox is not an emulator.	01:22
Damion_	well I got it working the other way round :)	01:22
alterego	MohammadAG: I'll probably write a network transparent UI for it ;)	01:22
MohammadAG	alterego, or sell the Xbox :P	01:22
alterego	pfft	01:22
alterego	The XBox is awesome, and it'll integrate with my WP7 phone :P	01:22
Damion_	qemu-user running x86 stuff on arm talking to /tmp/.X11/X0 worked for UI stuff	01:22
MohammadAG	alterego, or sell the Xbox :P	01:23
MohammadAG	err, damn up + enter	01:23
* MohammadAG isn't typing what he typed again		01:23
alterego	Heh	01:23
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alterego	wb DawnFoster	01:23
CosmoHill	hi	01:23
DawnFoster	thanks - had to unexpectedly drop offline	01:24
alterego	MohammadAG: so, for a head start, do you want to start working on the Harmattan CSSU now?	01:24
DawnFoster	at a conference & friend's computer freaked out, so he borrowed mine	01:24
MohammadAG	alterego, maybe, when I have a device :P	01:24
alterego	Heh	01:24
DawnFoster	alterego: did you get that guy unbanned?	01:24
alterego	DawnFoster: yeah, did it then deop'd myself, thanks :)	01:24
DawnFoster	yeah, I saw that - thanks :)	01:25
MohammadAG	s/when/if :P	01:25
alterego	MohammadAG: did you sign up?	01:25
MohammadAG	alterego, yeah	01:25
alterego	You will definitely get one I'm sure, but it does mean you'll have to do a bit more MeeGo stuff :P	01:25
DawnFoster	alterego: and thanks for helping out!	01:25
alterego	DawnFoster: I am here to help :P	01:26
MohammadAG	alterego, as long as plain Qt is themed, I'm happy with it :P	01:26
alterego	Heh	01:26
alterego	I'm hoping the fast track a device to me.	01:27
MohammadAG	or maybe I'll switch to QML then, 512MBs of RAM make my argument invalid, in a way :P	01:27
alterego	s/the/they/	01:27
infobot	alterego meant: I'm hoping they fast track a device to me.	01:27
alterego	Erm, they have 1G RAM	01:27
MohammadAG	err, what?	01:27
MohammadAG	1GB of soldered RAM?	01:27
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javispedro	n9 does	01:28
alterego	No, 1G of RAM hanging out the side on a peice of string :P	01:28
javispedro	dunno about n950	01:28
alterego	The N950s that they'll be distribution to developers have 1G of RAM	01:28
MohammadAG	alterego, oh, the new kind then :P	01:28
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alterego	~distributed, I'm getting a bit tired now ;)	01:28
alterego	ffs, distributing!	01:28
Damion_	the new rubbery black ones ?	01:29
MohammadAG	cool, I thought they had 512 soldered + 512 swap	01:29
alterego	I can spell, I'm just using the wrong words :)	01:29
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alterego	MohammadAG: what made you think that? :P	01:29
MohammadAG	no the new ones with RAM hanging from the side	01:29
alterego	afaict, the only hardware difference is basically the N9 has a slightly better magnetometer and NFC	01:29
MohammadAG	alterego, haven't looked at the spec sheet, only know it has a 4" screen and 1.0GHz :P	01:30
alterego	And it seems we're quite likely to have FM RX & TX	01:30
MohammadAG	NFC on the N950 would've been cool, more chances for devs to make nfc apps	01:30
alterego	Indeed	01:30
Damion_	what is the big deal with nfc all of a sudden?	01:30
MohammadAG	I thought the FCC pages mentioned otherwise	01:30
MohammadAG	(FMTX)	01:30
alterego	Maybe we can make an NFC binary compatible FM based NFC clone ;)	01:30
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Damion_	it's just what some .jp people used to buy stuff in Japan	01:30
alterego	Damion_: sure, and I'd like to go there one day :P	01:31
Damion_	it's like very weak bluetooth, but still enough to eat battery	01:31
javispedro	alterego: on spain at least n900 officialy has "1GiB application memory"	01:31
alterego	Not really ..	01:31
Damion_	alterego: well there is no guarentee you'll get the app that lets you have money on yours	01:31
javispedro	Damion_: I was sold on the passive rfc tags idea	01:31
alterego	javispedro: you mean the spec on nokia.com?	01:31
javispedro	alterego: yes	01:31
alterego	javispedro: sure, same everywhere, but application memory is not RAM	01:31
alterego	Which it explicitly states.	01:32
javispedro	alterego: "lie me once, ..."	01:32
Damion_	javispedro: there are passive QR labels, easier to spot too	01:32
Damion_	and don't eat battery	01:32
alterego	javispedro: they used a tricky marketting loop hole that was misleading sure.	01:32
javispedro	Damion_: au the contraire	01:32
javispedro	Damion_: camera on = horrible battery life	01:32
alterego	I think scanning a few QR codes would eat a lot more than having NFC on	01:32
Damion_	I'm more excited about BT4.0	01:32
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alterego	Heh the N9 doesn't even have BT3 :P	01:33
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Damion_	1% of the power usage of BT	01:33
alterego	80% done ..	01:33
Damion_	I read the wikipedia article today, sounds very useful	01:33
Damion_	javispedro: yes when you turn it on for a moment. The nfc is on most of the time normally (I guess you could turn it on and offm, but that gains you little).	01:34
Damion_	basically my wife's NexusS had to have NFC off, as a) nothing uses it yet, b) it definitely decreased battery life	01:34
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alterego	Damion_: I plan on making some NFC hot points in my house :)	01:35
Damion_	once the qr/nfc tag is read what happens is typically a 3G connection and web experience eating much more, my point is leaving nfc on 24x7	01:35
alterego	Don't know what I'll make them do, maybe control home automation for turning TV on when I sit on couch and put N9 on chair arm	01:35
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alterego	If it's on it's pad on my desk it turns on my desk light if it's getting near sunset	01:35
alterego	When I put it on my bed side table it dims the lights and gives me manual light control for going to sleep, and sets up alarm in the morning to wake me up to go to work.	01:36
alterego	When I get into work, it'll automatically open work portal and email.	01:36
alterego	And make me a coffee,	01:37
Damion_	you know buttons would do this, put the phonedown on a button ;)	01:37
javispedro	and when you enter the bathroom it will immediately $INSERT_LAME_JOKE_HERE	01:37
alterego	javispedro: fall into topilet :P	01:37
alterego	~toilet	01:37
infobot	i heard toilet is not here	01:37
javispedro	ok, I just laughed.	01:37
Damion_	toilet the figlet replacement?	01:37
alterego	90%	01:38
alterego	it was probably a mistake to install the SDK through 3G	01:38
alterego	It's been going for almost an hour now :D	01:38
javispedro	watch until you get your at&t iBill	01:38
alterego	One neat thing about the N9/(50?) is the fact it does wifi master mode for tethering ..	01:39
javispedro	they are already cutting down a large reservoir from the amazons to print it	01:39
alterego	That's new	01:39
Damion_	alterego: oooh you confirmed that?	01:39
MohammadAG	alterego, isn't NFC always on?	01:39
Damion_	I'd need to stick my sim in to confirm	01:39
alterego	MohammadAG: it's an active radio when it's in a device like the N9, I'm sure you can power it down.	01:40
Damion_	alterego: I talked on TMO with the dev who did the backported wifi drivers from 2.6.32 about this, as the new 80211.ko stuff should permit the same on the n900	01:40
alterego	Damnsweet, well yeah, papparantly out-of-the-box it should work.	01:41
alterego	Erm, Damion_ ^	01:41
alterego	96%	01:41
alterego	I'm gonna make a cup of tea	01:41
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javispedro	I bet love is going to return to the handset ux? :)	01:43
javispedro	some of it at least	01:43
javispedro	too much of it was leaving for tablet ux ;P	01:44
alterego	I hope so	01:44
Damion_	it's ad-hoc atm, checking...	01:45
alterego	Well, we've already had a lot of love in MTF from the community	01:45
alterego	I'd really like to setup a mesh network between all my devices.	01:46
javispedro	hmm.. why do I have a browser window with the wikipedia page on the dark side of the force open	01:46
alterego	Why wouldn't you? :)	01:46
alterego	oh, wtf, it's downloading the i386 rootstrap now	01:46
alterego	That's another fucking 666M -_-	01:47
javispedro	oh, I forgot to unpack the armhf one	01:47
Damion_	alterego: it's Ad-Hoc	01:47
javispedro	er... ARMEL one (grrrrr)	01:47
* alterego goes to make a coffee.		01:47
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javispedro	ad hoc might use less battery than master	01:47
alterego	Damion_: maybe you're firmware is too old ;)	01:47
Damion_	it'll not work with my PSP and other stuff	01:47
Damion_	alterego: possible	01:47
javispedro	sell the PSP	01:47
Damion_	who else checked	01:47
Damion_	javispedro: the n900 is too slow doing remoteplay	01:48
Damion_	like 5-10% the correct speed :)	01:48
MohammadAG	checked what?	01:48
Damion_	MohammadAG: whether the wifi tethering was adhoc or intrastructure	01:48
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MohammadAG	Damion_, the remote play app?	01:48
MohammadAG	if it's Joikuspot it's adhoc I guess	01:48
Damion_	MohammadAG: I tried the remoteplay app and it worked but very slow	01:49
Damion_	it's not, it's integrated but they obviously don' bother setting the wifi mode in the revision I have	01:49
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MohammadAG	Damion_, that's cause everything is loaded on the CPU, it doesn't use gstreamer	01:50
Damion_	it uses various libs gstreamer uses, you mean it doesn't use the hw enhanced stuff gstreamer can tie in to using the onboatd h264 decoding?	01:51
MohammadAG	yes	01:51
Damion_	yeah I knew why it was slow, it was impressive anyway, given some time it might be possible	01:51
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Damion_	depends if what the psp needs, the hw can output unaided	01:52
Damion_	I'm really struggling to find harmhatten repositories, who was it I need to ask?	01:52
javispedro	Damion_: die in a fire!	01:54
javispedro	;P	01:54
javispedro	or wait until someone else gets one =)	01:54
Damion_	ooh http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/	01:55
javispedro	Damion_: that is SDK repo	01:55
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Damion_	it has armel binaries	01:56
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javispedro	SDK repos have armel binaries	01:58
javispedro	they come in both flavours ;P	01:58
Damion_	yes but it means I can try and install sometime	01:58
alterego	They should install fine	01:59
javispedro	technically you won't find any package on it that is not on your device	01:59
Damion_	and it fails, "invalid installaion package"	01:59
javispedro	well, save binutils.	01:59
javispedro	and the kile.	01:59
javispedro	*like	01:59
alterego	I have SDK stuff installed on N900	01:59
alterego	like, erm, bzip2 :)	01:59
Damion_	perhaps I need to switch this in to dev mode	01:59
Damion_	I have to ask permission of the account manger who's lent this to me	01:59
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* alterego likes the look of "Transfer Manager" :)		02:02
javispedro	the entire transparent list dialogs thing looks nice	02:03
javispedro	a pity this had to be done with MTF trickery instead of window manager trickery	02:03
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Damion_	mtf?	02:04
javispedro	LibMotherFscking	02:04
alterego	~mtf	02:04
infobot	A Microsoft Tape Format reader. URL: ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/backup/mtf-0.1.src.tgz	02:04
javispedro	actually libmeegotouch ;)	02:05
javispedro	or MeegoTouchFramework	02:05
Damion_	ahh	02:05
javispedro	infobot: bad bot.	02:05
infobot	Bad bot., bad! No cookie for you!	02:05
Damion_	application/octet-stream not supported	02:06
Damion_	so currently this n950 is completely useless to me	02:06
Damion_	an okay camera and okay browser but really really useless	02:06
javispedro	Damion_: stop spoiling the fun	02:06
Damion_	okay to be positive, the keyboard is really nice	02:07
javispedro	no! no! I'm not hearing!	02:07
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javispedro	the _hardware_ keyboard?	02:07
Damion_	if it weren't for the keyboard it'd be useless	02:07
javispedro	Damion_: tell that to engadget!	02:07
Damion_	I particularly like that when swiping up/down/across in browser/gallery it keeps quiting said app	02:08
Damion_	I'm really really pi*sed off that the .mp4 files it creates don't play on the ps3 wtf Sony and Nokia, what are you doing?	02:09
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wmarone	Damion_: fragmentation!	02:09
* wmarone explodes		02:09
Damion_	okay the ps3 is a locked down propriatory system, but it does shed loads of formats including h264+aac normally	02:09
Damion_	Xvid, Mjpeg, m2ts, mp4, avi ...	02:10
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Damion_	but not the weird mp4 format that is created by n950 and n900	02:10
berndhs	well if its useless, send it to me, I'll tell you in a couple of months what its like	02:10
Damion_	berndhs: sadly I'm not allowed	02:11
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berndhs	it was worth a half-hearted attempt :)	02:11
Damion_	I'm also hoping that if the account manager lets me put this in dev mode that I'll be able to get a shell at which point you can ignore all of the above	02:11
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Damion_	I'm in the centre of London if anyone wants to come and play with it	02:11
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alterego	Erm, what are you doing Thursday evening?	02:15
alterego	And would you like to come to the MeeGo Birmingham meetup (with your N950) :)	02:15
Damion_	after 20:00 not much	02:15
alterego	Well, your colleagues :)	02:15
Damion_	heh	02:15
alterego	I'm hoping to hear back from my contact that said he could possibly get one tomorrow, but even if it gets sent out tomorrow I don't know if it'll arrive in time :/	02:16
Damion_	I've been to Birmigham new street a couple of times	02:16
Damion_	been to is stretching it a bit	02:16
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javispedro	alterego: remember to hide the chloroform until he drops off his n950 lock code	02:17
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alterego	Heh	02:18
javispedro	oops. this was supposed to be a /msg.	02:18
alterego	:)	02:18
Damion_	I have always wanted somebody to try chloroform on me, I'd struggle for a while and then fake flop	02:18
alterego	I'll be getting one anyway, so it's just a matter of having one for the meetup.	02:18
Damion_	I think apparenly it doesn't really work and is made up for movies	02:18
Damion_	it's more likely yo make you extremely ill	02:18
alterego	But I'm not keeping my hopes up, as time is too fine.	02:18
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alterego	Right, bed time for me.	02:22
Damion_	it's barely past midnight	02:22
alterego	I have to be up at 6 :P	02:22
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Damion_	wow, I have kids and I don't get up until after 8 :)	02:29
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alterego	Heh	02:35
alterego	I'll talk to you all tomorrow. :) g'night	02:36
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blizzow	If I put in a development device application for an n950, when could I expect a response?	02:59
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SpeedEvil	As an individual?	03:01
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SpeedEvil	Reportedly, they want to get them into the hands of the right people ASAP	03:02
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SpeedEvil	IIRC the deadline si the 28th - for applications - and for 'clear cases' - it was said that they may be shipped even before that deadline.	03:02
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SpeedEvil	is	03:02
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blizzow	SpeedEvil: Thanks.	03:02
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Damion_	my individual application said ineligable so I did company one	04:57
Damion_	the link simple didn't let me proceed, some sort of permission denied	04:57
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the_lord	Hi! is there any 1.2 preview for the n900?	05:59
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anidel_	Look for MeeGO Community Edition for N900. It's first release is scheduled for tomorrow 22nd	06:32
SpeedEvil	:)	06:35
anidel_	it should be released tomorrow :)	06:36
sofar	those working on it are likely to be either drunk, asleep, or both.	06:37
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moofree	does it boot up quickly now? :)	06:40
anidel_	latest from Wiki page says 62s	06:41
anidel_	I think..from SD, I think :) I think too much	06:41
moofree	20 or 30 seconds quicker than the last time my friend tried it iirc	06:41
moofree	i just remember i commented on how fast the netbook edition booted on my netbook, and he thought i was joking lol	06:42
anidel_	I plan to install it on the eMMC and remove Maemo.	06:42
moofree	yeah, 60 seconds is still a tad too fast but at least it's better	06:42
moofree	err	06:42
anidel_	and work on that	06:42
moofree	too slow	06:42
* SpeedEvil tries to remember stock n900 boot time.		06:42
SpeedEvil	27s comes to mind.	06:42
anidel_	mine's not that fast...	06:44
anidel_	from starting to useable	06:44
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moofree	actually considering getting an n900 now lol	06:47
anidel_	:)	06:47
moofree	since the n9 announcement is so disappointing	06:48
anidel_	why ?	06:49
moofree	pretty much boils down to no keyboard	06:50
anidel_	:)	06:50
moofree	i want an n950 but apparently there's only a limited number of them in existence	06:50
anidel_	yup and it's not for sale	06:51
moofree	pretty much gonna be anohter iphone, and i hate my iphone! that's why iw as waiting for the n950	06:51
anidel_	iPhone doesn't have a keyboard	06:52
moofree	what ever happened to that circa 2007 tech demo of the nokia phone with a tactile feedback touchscreen	06:52
moofree	exactly	06:52
moofree	the n9 is basically another iphone clone slab phone	06:52
anidel_	so why iPhone over N9?	06:52
anidel_	oh no :)	06:52
moofree	i wanted an n950	06:52
moofree	not an n9	06:52
anidel_	me too...but that's it	06:52
the_lord	moofree: iphones are not multitaskers	06:52
moofree	what the n950 is being touted as, that's what i was expecting as the n9	06:53
moofree	iphone sucks in so many ways	06:53
moofree	i couldn't wait to give nokia my hundreds of dollars	06:53
moofree	but now... i don't know what to get :\	06:53
anidel_	so both devices have no keyboard... and you still prefer the iPhone?	06:54
moofree	no	06:54
moofree	i hate the iphone!	06:54
anidel_	but you said you're gonna buy it cause the N9 doesn't have a keyboard...	06:54
* anidel_ is confused		06:54
anidel_	ahhh I read it correctly now...	06:55
anidel_	anyway...it's pretty much a totally different phone than iPhone	06:55
anidel_	but for me it's time to go to sleep	06:55
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moofree	i'm what?	06:55
moofree	i have an iphone right now, i wnted to get an n9050, but since it was announced as the n9 without a keyboard, i don't know what to get now	06:55
moofree	i'm confused about how you got that i thought the iphone was goobetter lol	06:55
moofree	and of course my internet is frozen so i'm typing at a blank putty screen........	06:55
moofree	hahaha stupid irc cfreezing on me	06:56
anidel_	:)	06:56
moofree	jeeze this is annoying	06:56
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moofree	yeah, essentially n9: too much like iphone which i hate	06:56
moofree	i wanted, you know, a successor to the n900	06:56
anidel_	all of us	06:57
anidel_	but I still don't see any resemblance to iPhone	06:57
moofree	slab phone	06:57
moofree	i don't know how you don't see a resemblance to the iphone	06:57
anidel_	we clearly have different ways of seeing things, that's it	06:58
moofree	only difference it doesn't have that button at the bottom and it's curved so it scratches easier :P	06:59
moofree	ffit'd be nice if i could type and have text show up as i typed lol	07:00
moofree	cfinally	07:00
moofree	almost two minutes there :\	07:00
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Stskeeps	Jaffa: underneath the rules of meego app compliance , ie meego api only	07:26
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iekku	morning	07:37
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Jay_BEE	hola	08:13
Stskeeps	hola	08:13
Jay_BEE	my kingdom for a n950 lol...	08:14
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* Jay_BEE quickly ratchets up a QML "Hello World" app		08:14
Stskeeps	we collect kingdoms, so sign up for the developer device program	08:14
Jay_BEE	i signed up via the developer.nokia.com site	08:15
Jay_BEE	since my app will be commercial	08:15
* dm8tbr has touched an N950 once, do I get a kingdom? ;)		08:16
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Jay_BEE	dm8tbr I believe the idea is to give your kingdom for one or you could give me your kingdom which I could use to get the n950 heh	08:17
dm8tbr	dammit :)	08:18
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marcompile	so the link http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_on_Beagleboard_from_scratch says meego does not run anymore on beagleboard. Isn't the SGX drivers provided by TI open source?	08:24
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Stskeeps	no	08:24
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marcompile	we talking about this OMAP35x_Graphics_SDK_setuplinux_3_00_00_06.bin ?	08:25
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Stskeeps	right, that's not open source, it's closed binaries	08:26
Stskeeps	the problem is in that it's not built for hardfp ABI	08:26
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marcompile	but do the SGX drivers require a specific kernel version?	08:33
Stskeeps	ABI means 'different way of calling functions'	08:33
marcompile	yes, I know. You pass float parameters in float registers	08:34
Stskeeps	right	08:35
Stskeeps	and well, the current binaries pass parameters in integer registers	08:35
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Qantourisc	Silly question: Can I install and run all custom yum packages on a meego if: The architecture of the package is correct, I have the needed deps	08:36
marcompile	but the kernel modules are shipped with source code?	08:36
marcompile	just the userspace libs are the problem?	08:36
Stskeeps	marcompile: yes	08:36
Stskeeps	userspace libs are the problem and not 'just' :)	08:36
Stskeeps	someone from TI should just build a hardfp version of them	08:36
Stskeeps	it's really simple, just they aren't releasing any yet	08:37
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marcompile	has anyone tried to contact them and ask for it?	08:37
Stskeeps	they're saying june/july, i think	08:38
Stskeeps	linaro is moving to armhf too so	08:38
samaclacda	can i install meego simulator ?	08:38
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marcompile	what about the video decode and dsp stuff	08:39
marcompile	is that broken too?	08:39
Stskeeps	nah, that loads into a different processor	08:40
marcompile	but the dsp-link stuff is working fine still?	08:40
Stskeeps	if that isn't closed source binaries for userland, then yes	08:40
pabs3	Stskeeps: june/july for what? SGX source code? or hardfp versions?	08:41
Stskeeps	hardfp versions	08:41
Stskeeps	you'll see pigs flying before SGX source code comes out	08:41
marcompile	well, I'm not sure what is included. I think they have gstreamer modules, but idk if its opensource or binary	08:41
Stskeeps	think they're oss	08:42
pabs3	at least one is in the non-free section: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/non-free/g/gst-gltexture/	08:42
Stskeeps	that's harmattan, no idea what's going on there :P	08:43
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Stskeeps	we're talking about beagle/generic omap3	08:43
pabs3	ahh	08:43
pabs3	sorry for the noise	08:43
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TheBootroo	hello	09:02
TheBootroo	i have advanced questions about Nokia N9 and N950	09:02
Stskeeps	best to ask nokia straight then	09:03
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: where is their irc channel ?	09:03
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TheBootroo	i wanted to know if there are the sames pb on nokia meego devices than on N900 i talk about "root fs shitty partitionnning" and "exchanges troubles with gmail"	09:08
TheBootroo	if not i'll buy n9, if yes i'll wait for another meegophone	09:08
Stskeeps	well, it's not really in comsumer hands yet so youll have to wait	09:08
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: no one here as tested it yet ?	09:09
Ascen	A phone that gets released later this year?	09:10
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TheBootroo	on developer.nokia.com is asked for a N950 but i see nowhere a hint to know that i already applied for.... doest it means registration process is not finished ?	09:10
TheBootroo	Ascen: non, a phone that not even been anounced	09:11
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marcompile	well, its been announced at least	09:14
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TheBootroo	marcompile: the phone a really wanted does not exist and will likely never exist : its basically a Nokia N9 + N950 keyboard + USB Host + HDMI + Bluetooth 4.0+ LTE + FM RX/TX + SD card slot + Open bootloader + double core arm or atom	09:17
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TheBootroo	all these things seems pretty simlpe to me but no constructor seems to want to let out a such complete product... too bad	09:18
TheBootroo	Harmattan Ui + programs Guidelines are wonderfull to me (not even equalled by iOS or WebOS) but there are some hardware points over which i can't compromise	09:19
* TheBootroo wonders the hell why he can't be phone constructor himself		09:19
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: any chance to see Harmattan UI over MeeGo CE for N900 one day (overall the timeline and some apps like email and accuweather)	09:23
Stskeeps	honestly i think it'd be better if people steered clear of closed UI	09:23
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: wut N	09:23
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: wut ?	09:24
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: well, think of it - one of the problems that people always have with nokia devices is that once nokia stops caring, the UI's are closed down and cannot be modified	09:24
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Stskeeps	we have a working, nice-looking basic user interface, isn't that something to build on top of, to make sure we're never tied to those things again?	09:25
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: but reference UX really sucks and all proposals to enhance it are ignored, and i don't have time to create it entirely alone, i have too many projects by side	09:25
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: i don't like the move to QML	09:25
Stskeeps	of course, noone has time to do it alone, but even in very short time we've improved matters quite a lot in CE	09:25
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: MTF is better IMHO	09:25
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: 100% ACK	09:26
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: any way we could get Panels or Timeline with events in Handset UX, a beautiful way ? (i can make mockups, i like it)	09:26
marcompile	well, I have to sleep now. thanks for all the information. I'll be back soon	09:27
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: well, if you like MTF you're welcome to send patches	09:27
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: i can't even get it compiling on my linux laptop, and my connexion at home sux	09:28
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TheBootroo	e.g. is proposed this solution for landscape enhancement in meego apps , especially for menu : http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3081	09:28
* Jay_BEE searches youtube for a video showing MeeGo CE on N900		09:29
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TheBootroo	i will make a panel/timeline mockup soon, and a lockscreen/screensaver one too (in fact i already have one to just finish)	09:29
Stskeeps	Jay_BEE: hopefully amandalam will make one of our summer release	09:29
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Jay_BEE	amandalam?	09:29
Jay_BEE	what's that?	09:29
Stskeeps	a youtube user	09:30
Jay_BEE	oh	09:30
Jay_BEE	I should just get off my lazy duff and install it	09:30
Jay_BEE	found one	09:32
Jay_BEE	this one is by amadahoic	09:33
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: if a do a plain Qt example for my timeline and the menu, any chance to get it 'copied' by meego handset guys ? i really want to help but don't have enough time and internet rate to really integrate the meego project as a developer ATM	09:33
Stskeeps	ah, yeah	09:33
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Stskeeps	Jay_BEE: things have improved a lot in 3 weeks :)	09:34
Stskeeps	morn lbt_nur	09:34
lbt_nur	morning Stskeeps	09:34
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lbt_nur	how goes it?	09:34
Stskeeps	ah, the usua	09:34
Stskeeps	l	09:34
Stskeeps	looking at qemu bugs	09:35
lbt_nur	good then	09:35
Jay_BEE	Stskeeps: is the UX on the N900 CE the same as I would see on a tablet?	09:35
lbt_nur	got yourselves a CE strategy and vision yet ... especially now you'll have new toys to play with :)	09:36
Stskeeps	lbt_nur: saw my CE_Factsheet?	09:36
Stskeeps	Jay_BEE: ours is basically a community productization of handset ux.. long term would be tablet ux based	09:36
Stskeeps	lbt_nur: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/CE_Factsheet	09:36
Jay_BEE	so panels on the handset? I think panels are perfect for a tablet, but not for a handset	09:37
lbt_nur	Stskeeps: nope - didn't spot that ... reading	09:37
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: could we propose a lot a modifications over tablet ux to get it really adapted to smal sized screens, and ty to be on pair with N9 Ui which is almost perfect ?	09:37
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* Jay_BEE clicks the linkage		09:38
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: actually tablet ux works fairly decently on small sized screens	09:38
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: but is not optimized and has a lot of glitches	09:38
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: there's many good reasons for that, many which are being fixed	09:38
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: that'd why meego has a very bad reputation of a 'not_finished_so_no_future' product	09:38
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Stskeeps	and tablet ux is surprisingily good :P	09:39
TheBootroo	if at least i could have a working version of tablet ux on x86 ubuntu with nvidia card, i could very help	09:39
TheBootroo	but i can't help if a can't test	09:39
Stskeeps	:nod:	09:39
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Stskeeps	TheBootroo: the thing is that the tablet ux is notoriously tied to the meego stack	09:41
Stskeeps	so having it on ubuntu is problematic	09:41
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TheBootroo	is there really no way to keep an updated debian x86 version of meego packages using OBS to allow speed developping without expensive/inexisting/underpowered device ?	09:41
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Stskeeps	TheBootroo: it takes quite a lot of effort to package up the stuff	09:41
pabs3	indeed, the Debian pkg-meego folks are apparently having a hard time of it	09:42
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: i know and that is surely the meego stack libs that i can't achieve to compile on my compute.... and i can't even think abuot keeping all that stuff updating	09:42
TheBootroo	that why we need official packages	09:42
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TheBootroo	and i i had a RPM based distro ? like opensus or fedora ? could i run easily meego UX on it without emulation or virtualization	09:43
Stskeeps	not really	09:43
TheBootroo	bad	09:43
TheBootroo	very bad	09:44
TheBootroo	so no way for 80% of people to test/develop/use meego	09:44
Botsik	easiest way to run meego without real hardware is still a VM, I think	09:44
TheBootroo	and N900 is underpower unfortunately	09:44
TheBootroo	Botsik: VM doesn't work	09:44
TheBootroo	Botsik: meego needs to many hard side stuff (KVM, SSSE3, intel graphisc...)	09:45
lamikr	TheBootroo Or you could just try to install meego for your pc and then try to install and configure meego ux to be launched there.	09:45
Botsik	apparently I have all of those then	09:45
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TheBootroo	lamikr: meego CAN'T run on my pc	09:46
TheBootroo	Botsik: all a those are available on recent netbookx	09:46
TheBootroo	not on a 2 years old 17 inches HP laptop with nvidia gaphics	09:47
TheBootroo	and i have a eee Box too, with intel atom but yet nvidia graphics	09:47
TheBootroo	so no way to test meego on it	09:47
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: but why the hell does meego guys hard coded that graphisc MUST be intel and processor MUST be SSSE3 and alll	09:48
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lamikr	TheBootroo Oh, I didn't realize that. Usually I test with netbook where things works ok. (in addition of n900)	09:48
TheBootroo	TheBootroo: this make meego extremely hard to test and to develop	09:49
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: ask the intel guys, i thought it was idiotic :) the 'must be intel graphics' is not totally true	09:49
Stskeeps	people have it working on nvidia	09:49
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Jay_BEE	Stskeeps: great n900 ce factsheet	09:49
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TheBootroo	lamikr: i don't have netbook and i don't sse how i could develop on such small devices	09:49
TheBootroo	i will not pay 500€ for a device i will not use	09:50
TheBootroo	i must find a way to run meego on my EEE Box or on my laptop	09:50
TheBootroo	so with nvidia graphics	09:50
lamikr	Ok... So display drivers are the biggest problem for you and that prevent even the normal install? (because once you have image installed, maybe you could rebuild yourself the display driver needed.)	09:51
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: why couldn't meego use Nouveau drivers for nvidia,they work good to dispay stuff without particular bugs and are packed into linux kernel	09:51
TheBootroo	i don't see why meego kernel as been deleted some drivers	09:52
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TheBootroo	lamikr: the iamge doesnt even start and throws me some error about missing intel drivers and all	09:52
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dm8tbr	TheBootroo: on x86 you're best off if you have all-intel-hw because that's what it will be optimized for as on the x86 side meego is close to a purely intel thing	09:53
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dm8tbr	cue someone saying that Nvidia is free to join MeeGo and fix that	09:53
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TheBootroo	dm8tbr: i don't need optimization, i need it jsut work, i don't care about 500ms delay or 10-20 additional FPS	09:54
dm8tbr	oh did I say optimized? I meant locked-in	09:55
lamikr	TheBootroo Ok, one workaround that could work is that if you can build another kernel in obs with nouveau enabled and then modify the ks file from some of the existing images in a way that image takes your own kernel.	09:55
Stskeeps	there's nothing stopping anyone from submitting and maintaining the nouveau support, fwiw	09:55
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TheBootroo	i think meego UXes should be avaiblable in a repos allowing to install them a simple Desktop environmant on standard linux distro, as we do for gnome, kde, openbox...	09:55
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: except you miss the point, the ux's aren't what is interesting, the stack is :P	09:56
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: the stack will be installed by packages dependencies, just like KDE desktop installs nemopuk, kdelibs...etc	09:56
TheBootroo	the rest of meego is core linux	09:56
TheBootroo	all what is not linux is pure meego sutff	09:57
TheBootroo	so i don't see why it couldn't be installed on standard linux	09:57
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dm8tbr	TheBootroo: someone tried that with Smeegol, they got themselves a bloody nose	09:58
TheBootroo	and from my point of interest, UX is the most important, because stack is alreeady stabilized and i can't help if not, bu i can test and enhance UX	09:58
TheBootroo	dm8tbr: which proves that meego distribution model is not yet god	09:58
TheBootroo	*good	09:58
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* Jay_BEE attempts to install the meego ce		09:59
TheBootroo	a developer shloud be able to test meego programs under his usual linux distro, all programs even tablet UX panels and all	09:59
TheBootroo	and at the moment there's just no way	10:00
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: i think you're speaking to the choir but the solution isn't as easy as it sounds	10:01
TheBootroo	and with my bad connexion i can't even think about building my own image for scratche because it WILL fail, i can't even dl a simple image these days, it get stuck at 200mo or tries to dl more than image size and corrupts archive (like 467mo of 450 image)	10:02
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Jay_BEE	i don't think i put u-boot on here since my n900 crash when heading for CES	10:03
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: i can't do more at the moment	10:04
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chouchoune	TheBootroo: if you can't even download an image, you will anyway be stuck, even if all you wants works	10:04
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: why not just provide Live ISO of Meego UX and remove hardware tests from it to allow running on every Liux kernel supported hardware ?	10:05
* RST38h moos triupmhantly		10:05
RST38h	HELO Stskeeps	10:05
* Jay_BEE sees that he is running power46		10:06
TheBootroo	chouchoune: if i know that an image is reay and works i can find a way to dl it, but i just can't dl one image per day to see if it works or not, and can't dl over 500 packages to build my own	10:06
Stskeeps	Jay_BEE: get uboot matching that then	10:06
Jay_BEE	Stskeeps: ah yeah... memory faded a bit there hehe	10:07
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: like any distribution, nothing's going to happen until someone contributes	10:07
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: and who contributes then ? i want to contribute but i cant til this problem is not fixed !	10:08
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Stskeeps	TheBootroo: well, that's when you gang up with someone else to do it, working in a team	10:08
TheBootroo	i don't know anybody like tha	10:09
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Jay_BEE	heh... extras-devel is disabled	10:10
TheBootroo	Stskeeps: my eeebox is ION plateform so is there quick even dirty fix to run meego Tablet UX and install	10:10
Stskeeps	then the best way is to make a wiki page proposing a project for this, and send to meego-community or meego-dev	10:11
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Stskeeps	and gather interested participants	10:11
* Jay_BEE enables it		10:11
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Your comment at 05:26 presumably relates to a conversation 7 hours earlier (but I've lost the context ;-))	10:11
Stskeeps	Jaffa: i commented at 6:26am my time? dear god	10:11
Stskeeps	[23:06] <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Did you have a "MeeGo Compliant" app in mind, btw for your Harmattan compatibility challenge?	10:12
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Muchos lag? ;-)	10:12
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Jaffa	Stskeeps: Ah yes. That was it. Do we know of a MeeGo Compliant app already? :-)	10:12
Stskeeps	Jaffa: there's test cases to check, so	10:12
* Jaffa 'd be willing to give it a go (not for the money, but to support his other points)		10:13
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* RST38h notices that the Battle of Wikipedians over the "Meego Compliance" title is continuing		10:14
Stskeeps	url?	10:14
RST38h	Stskeeps: Here!	10:14
Stskeeps	ah	10:14
RST38h	For Tentacled's sake, just stuff it. It is enough for the poor Harmattan to be late, hated by the mad Nokian CEO, and frowned upon by Intel.	10:15
RST38h	It is the first freaking physical device that will let you write USABLE QML/QMobility based apps. Isn't that enough? For the first shot?	10:16
TheBootroo	RST38h: harmattan is great great amazing wonderful great	10:16
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Jaffa	RST38h: Surely people should be saving up for an Aava to use as their primary device and be happy with the Handset UX?!	10:16
TheBootroo	Jaffa: how coudl they be	10:17
RST38h	Jaffa: I start saving for something when it hits the shelves and gets reviewed by a few people	10:17
TheBootroo	Jaffa: aava is not yet available	10:17
* Jay_BEE crosses his fingers and installs the kp46 u-boot		10:17
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pabs3	eww x86	10:17
Jaffa	TheBootroo: It is. But it's an OEM platform which costs thousands of $CURRENCY	10:17
RST38h	Jaffa: The consumer-usable Aava is pure vapor right now	10:17
Jaffa	I didn't say consumer-Aava ;-)	10:17
RST38h	Jaffa: Same as a few other Meego handsets	10:18
TheBootroo	its shit if we cant get it for max 600€	10:18
Jaffa	Well, it's shit as a phone anyway. What's the battery life like?	10:18
TheBootroo	RST38h: there are no other meego handset but the n9	10:18
RST38h	I dunno. How can I tell?	10:18
Jaffa	I think we've proved our point :)	10:19
RST38h	There is simply no data to be positive or negative about Aava, other than it not being ready	10:19
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Jay_BEE	aye... appman so slow...	10:19
TheBootroo	ok i will wait and buy the N9, at least i will have a fully working meego device	10:19
mariob	Just picked up: http://wiki.meego.com/Harmattan_Python. Looks great	10:20
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TheBootroo	usually i like testing alpha things but in the case of meego, testing is just a real hell and pain in the ass, nothing works on 95% existing hardware : understand well, i don't criticize bugs that are normal for alpha software, but hardware restrictions dues to hard coded bits (meego should jsut run everywhere other linux does)	10:22
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Jay_BEE	re... power outtage :(	10:24
Jay_BEE	u-boot up and running	10:24
Jay_BEE	Stskeeps: any recommended image to use?	10:25
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Stskeeps	-testing, n900-de, handset image	10:26
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: pin query and usb dialog things are not yet in tablet image ?	10:26
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TheBootroo	i prefer handset ux, closer to harmattan guildelines which are great,and i prefer MTF to QML too, but i love panels, and appearance of tablet theme is far better....	10:27
RST38h	Ah, fun: http://felipec.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/my-disagreement-with-elop-on-meego/	10:28
* Jay_BEE goes for the 2011-06-22 -testing		10:29
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TheBootroo	RST38h: reading ...	10:31
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TheBootroo	he is ruining the most promising linux-based system i ever seen	10:32
TheBootroo	this Elop is a real fool	10:32
TheBootroo	plus, harmattan is just for me the best UX for linux handset i saw out there	10:32
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TheBootroo	and he sweeps (!) this all to put shitty WP7 instead....	10:33
TheBootroo	the world is going worse and worse each day passing	10:33
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MSM	TheBootroo: The world has always been bad	10:33
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TheBootroo	MSM: but its gettings worse	10:33
MSM	I know :-(	10:34
mikhas	TheBootroo, thanks for actually praising MTF	10:34
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TheBootroo	just hope he si not completely stupid and seeing the N9 sucess even with its prematured death anouunced, he will lead Nokia making MeeGo Phones again	10:35
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TheBootroo	mikhas: i think MTF is even better than stock QWidget and QML, and should replace both in QT5 IMHO, and just use QML like syntax to replace simple CSS, to skin MTF widget	10:36
MSM	With keyboards this time	10:36
TheBootroo	that would be my real dream	10:36
TheBootroo	MSM: ye	10:36
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mikhas	wow, we have a fan here	10:36
TheBootroo	MSM: basically a Nokia N9 + N950 keyboard + USB Host + HDMI + Bluetooth 4.0+ LTE + FM RX/TX + SD card slot + Open bootloader + double core arm or atom	10:36
mikhas	everyone else only tells us that MTF is shit ...	10:37
TheBootroo	mikhas: i jsut can see good piece of soft when i see one and i think QML is piece of shit : syntax is good to skin widget but not to do full programming, i dont want to use interpreted language for my UI, i just wnat	10:37
TheBootroo	i just want a kind of advanced dynamic CSS to skin QGraphicsItem based widget	10:38
MSM	Would be the best device	10:38
mikhas	advanced dynamic CSS: CSS with behaviour, IE, what Microsoft did years ago (allowing JS bits in CSS)	10:39
TheBootroo	show you support to meego here http://twitition.com/3c3ah	10:39
TheBootroo	mikhas: myabe	10:39
TheBootroo	*maybe	10:39
TheBootroo	i think we need to mass buy the N9 even if its not ideal device to show Elop he was wrong and let MeeGo a chance to come back in Nokia phones	10:40
mikhas	yes, everyone please buy 7 N9's	10:40
mikhas	:-D	10:40
TheBootroo	i will buy it even if i think the keybord and FMTX of my N900 is irreplacable	10:40
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TheBootroo	and i hope and i pray God to clear elop memore about his shipt moment when he choose to let meego drop	10:41
Stskeeps	are we discussing meego.com or nokia? :P	10:42
ieatlint	i just wish the n950 was going to go on sale, and that it had nfc	10:42
TheBootroo	"please God forgive him, he didn't know what he was doing, he was just possessed by MS daemon...3	10:42
TheBootroo	ieatlint: N950 will NEVER be sale	10:42
ieatlint	yes, i realize that	10:43
TheBootroo	its a given device in meego developr program	10:43
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TheBootroo	ieatlint: taht why we must buy N9, to show MeeGo interset, not this phone particulary, and then maybe nokia will make a full lineup of meego (with and whithout keyboard, tablet etc ...°	10:43
ieatlint	i'll see if i'm one of the lucky few who gets an n950, but even if so, i'll regret the lack of nfc	10:44
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TheBootroo	Stskeeps: what is the green bar on top right of screen here http://wiki.meego.com/File:20000101-034513.png	10:45
ieatlint	well, seeing as nokia doesn't seem to intend to sell the n9 in the US, it may be rather difficult	10:45
ieatlint	at least, on nokia.com/n9 it fails to list the US as a country it will be available in	10:45
Stskeeps	TheBootroo: good question	10:45
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TheBootroo	ieatlint: i already talked about that : entries exists (for france too) but are disabled the time for nokia to find partners in these countries	10:46
TheBootroo	ieatlint: look at select HTLM code	10:46
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ieatlint	well, i'm somehow 99% sure i will have an n9	10:46
ieatlint	still would prefer the hardware keyboard	10:46
TheBootroo	ieatlint: and since it has no keybd and is pentaband you can buy it anywhere it will work	10:47
Jay_BEE	i'm holding out for hardware keyboard	10:47
ieatlint	i'm excited that i'll be looking at a device that arguably beats the "most advanced" android device on the market	10:47
ieatlint	Jay_BEE: hey man	10:47
ieatlint	remember me from the conf? :P	10:47
Jay_BEE	ieatlint: yeah! how are you!?	10:47
TheBootroo	we will find a case with integrated bluetooth keyboard	10:47
ieatlint	only just catching up with work after losing a week	10:48
Jay_BEE	ieatlint: losing a week to what?	10:48
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ieatlint	the conference	10:48
ieatlint	i spent all of that week at the meego conference, and then in meetings, and wasn't able to work at all on my projects at work	10:49
Jay_BEE	ieatlint: oh my... lol	10:49
Jay_BEE	busy man you are	10:49
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ieatlint	nfc is fun :)	10:49
Jay_BEE	nfc rocks	10:49
* pabs3 still not clear what NFC actually lets you do		10:50
ieatlint	did you watch the n9 promo video from nokia?	10:51
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ieatlint	because they demo some advanced features there	10:51
leo	Is "https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12455" fixed?	10:51
MeeGoBot	Bug 12455 nor, Medium, ---, jesse.barnes, NEW, Displayed UI does not adapt to available screen resolution	10:51
ieatlint	in the video, they transfer an image via nfc/bluetooth	10:52
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ieatlint	just tell the sending device "send via nfc", hold the receiving device next to it, and the receiving device will pair via bluetooth the sending device, transfer the file, and close the connection	10:52
ieatlint	all with just a couple user-friendly button presses	10:52
ieatlint	or the new speakers by nokia, where you just hold your phone next to the speakers, and it wirelessly pairs with them over bluetooth and starts playing your music with them..	10:53
ieatlint	or the ability to exchange phone number/email address by just holding phones next to each other… nfc is awesome	10:54
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Jay_BEE	the exchange phone number/email thing has been around since the palm pda dayz...	10:54
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ieatlint	via IR, yeah	10:56
ieatlint	but name a recent device that did it	10:56
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Jay_BEE	wait... the n900 isn't capable of this?	10:57
Jaffa	ieatlint: The Bump API on the iPhone	10:57
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ieatlint	in fact, the contact transfer was on the first palm device as i recall, and one of the major marketing ones	10:57
Jaffa	Jay_BEE: It is via BT, but that's fiddly to make a device visible; accept the connection and so on	10:57
Guest46126	/msg NickServ identify zah760310	10:57
ieatlint	fail	10:57
Jay_BEE	LOL... nickserv fail big time	10:57
ieatlint	Jaffa: i've heard reference to that, but not seen it used	10:57
ieatlint	i saw obj-c, and i ran away crying	10:57
Jaffa	ieatlint: It looks just like NFC, but I can't remember how it works	10:58
Jaffa	ieatlint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZudLSKaBgM	10:58
ieatlint	must be bt	10:58
TheBootroo	ieatlint: true, objC is ugly	10:58
ieatlint	yeah, requiring a 3rd party app is meh	10:59
Jay_BEE	very meh	10:59
ieatlint	the C7 and (presumably) the N9 support v-card	10:59
ieatlint	over nfc, i mean	10:59
TheBootroo	What the hall, only 650 guys want to keep MeeGO on nokia ? would it be true finally ? meego doesnt interest public ? go here and sign http://twitition.com/3c3ah or do it on facebook if you dont have twitter account	10:59
ieatlint	the sending phone needs a 3rd party app on the c7, however	11:00
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ieatlint	I am unclear on the N9 supporting sending contacts natively over nfc	11:00
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TheBootroo	could a channel admin put the link for petition in the subject of channel please, would help visibility : http://twitition.com/3c3ah	11:01
Jay_BEE	well... let me back off from that meh... doing it via software isn't too bad even if it's a third-party... what makes me chuckle is seeing people adding IR doo-hickeys to their iphone to do IR remove	11:01
TheBootroo	we must hit 100 000 sign up, we are far	11:01
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ieatlint	i think so long as the receiver doesn't need a special app, it's good, because if i want to send someone my phone number, it shouldn't be "okay, but do you have ___ installed?"	11:02
Jay_BEE	true	11:03
Jay_BEE	hmm... something went wrong with the dd... seems to be taking forever	11:03
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TheBootroo	hummmm N950 lookx really reall sexy in black	11:06
TheBootroo	but is it yet alu or plastic ?	11:06
Jaffa	Coated aluminium (like N8, I guess)	11:06
TheBootroo	hoping i'll get mine soon, already requested	11:06
TheBootroo	will we be able to install all apps made for N9 on the N950 ?	11:07
TheBootroo	or will it be blocked ?	11:07
ieatlint	if applications are open for another week, i wouldn't expect approvals too soon	11:08
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Jaffa	ieatlint: Bump's description of their technology is pretty cool and avoids problems with wireless network sharing, BT pairing etc: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3383447/how-does-bump-technology-work	11:17
Jaffa	ieatlint: Allegedly the accelerometer information is fed up into the cloud and then broadcast back down	11:17
poly	SDK 1.2 20110519 fails to install on 64 bit Arch linux. Is there an alternative method to install the SDK?	11:20
Jay_BEE	wow... the image copy finally finished	11:20
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Jaffa	Gah, the Harmattan qemu build is far too slow to be usable :-(	11:22
TheBootroo	Jaffa: true ? there is a harmattan ui testable in it ?	11:23
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* Jay_BEE boots up t3h MeeGo 1.2 CE w00t		11:23
TheBootroo	Jaffa: where did you found it ?	11:25
Jay_BEE	hmm... the time is off... timezone probably set to the moon	11:26
TheBootroo	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/unstable/beta/qemu/ is not found 404	11:28
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TheBootroo	Jaffa: i'll try to install the SDK tonight to be able to test a little harmattan UI	11:33
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TheBootroo	which disk space is needed ?	11:34
Jay_BEE	MeeGo 1.2 CE is nice	11:34
wazd	hello all	11:35
Jaffa	TheBootroo: It's part of the Qt SDK update.	11:37
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Jaffa	TheBootroo: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/06/21/introducing-meego-1-2-harmattan-to-the-qt-sdk/	11:37
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TheBootroo	Jaffa: oh ! you can have a working harmattan ui in qt sdk ?	11:38
Jaffa	TheBootroo: Yup	11:38
Jay_BEE	poly: you're in uncharted waters... the sdk is only validated on 32-bit linux distros	11:38
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TheBootroo	Jay_BEE: i always thought that 64 bit was unappropriate for developpement	11:39
Jay_BEE	try hitting up the meego-sdk email distro or even the forums, perhaps someone there has accomplished this	11:39
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Jay_BEE	TheBootroo: unappropriate?	11:40
Jaffa	TheBootroo: http://twitpic.com/5f3kov	11:40
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TheBootroo	Jaffa: cant see my proxy blocks all from twitter, use hostingpics.net	11:42
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bkalinga	does anyone has any idea about this error "Unable to find libthread_db matching inferior's thread library, thread debugging will not be available."	11:46
Stskeeps	fairly normal	11:46
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bkalinga	Stskeeps: is your answer to my Query??	11:47
Stskeeps	yes	11:47
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BluesLee	how do i mount the n9 jffs2 rootfs? how are the dimensions of the nand?	11:48
bkalinga	why is this normal ...due to this i am not able to put break points and not able to debug	11:48
poly	Jay_BEE: Ok, Thanks.	11:48
Stskeeps	BluesLee: not jffs2	11:48
Stskeeps	bkalinga: not the reason	11:48
TheBootroo	BluesLee: BTRFS	11:48
bkalinga	Stskeeps: is there any work around for this problem	11:48
BluesLee	Stskeeps: i have a jffs2 here	11:48
Stskeeps	BluesLee: it's just a name	11:48
Jay_BEE	poly: there is also #meego-sdk	11:48
TheBootroo	BluesLee: you have N9 ? fricking lucky one	11:48
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BluesLee	TheBootroo: i dont have an n9	11:49
Stskeeps	BluesLee: it's quite likely a ubifs	11:49
X-Fade	Afaik it is ext4.	11:49
BluesLee	Stskeeps: doesnt seem so	11:49
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bkalinga	Stskeeps: " bkalinga: not the reason" i am sorry I did not get you	11:50
TheBootroo	Jaffa: can you send the pic on hostingpcs please twitter related things are blocked here	11:50
Jaffa	TheBootroo: http://bleb.org/software/maemo/harmattan-ui-sdk.png	11:51
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TheBootroo	Jaffa: kthx	11:51
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bkalinga	is there any way i can put a break point (using gdb) as currently it does not show the symbols	11:51
TheBootroo	OMG i think i poo in my pants	11:51
TheBootroo	i need this sdk	11:51
BluesLee	Stskeeps: i mean, i edited the run script, renamed it to tar, untared it, i got a binfiles directory with emmc.bin and img.bin, used flasher to extract img.bin and it gave me a jffs2	11:51
TheBootroo	are apps functionals ?	11:52
Stskeeps	bkalinga: install debuginfo packages	11:52
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BluesLee	Jaffa: there is a simulator in the sdk for harmattan? how do i run it?	11:52
Jaffa	TheBootroo: The "Widgets Gallery" is. Trying "Calculator". I don't see why they wouldn't, they're just sloooow	11:52
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TheBootroo	Jaffa: you lag because you use SOft GL	11:53
Jaffa	BluesLee: There's the standard Qt Simulator and there's also a Harmattan qemu image	11:53
Jaffa	TheBootroo: True - I might try forcing it to hard (it's currently set to "auto")	11:53
TheBootroo	Jaffa: i think use use your linux box without props drivers	11:53
bkalinga	Stskeeps: you mean debuginfo packages for service framework (My shared object that i wanted to debug uses service fw)	11:53
Stskeeps	yes	11:53
Jaffa	TheBootroo: Well, Unity & games work very well with the NVidia drivers	11:53
Tronic	Where I can join the MeeGo developer community and apply for N950? Cannot find a form on the website.	11:53
timoph	meego.com	11:54
Tronic	timoph: Yes, I cannot find a form there. Could you be more specific?	11:54
Jaffa	Tronic: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3597	11:54
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TheBootroo	i alreay asked for a n950 on developer.nokia.com but i see no visual feedback to know if the action was saved on website	11:54
Jaffa	TheBootroo: Where did you find it on developer.nokia.com? Launchpad didn't have a programme last I saw	11:55
BluesLee	Jaffa: do i need a special version of qemu? the link for qemu here does not work http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Platform_Guide/Developing_with_Harmattan_Platform_SDK/Using_QEMU	11:55
Tronic	Yes, I did read that thread also, and it links to https://meego.com/community/device-program/devices/nokia-n9-devkit which links back to the thread.	11:55
Tronic	It says that commercial developers should contact http://developer.nokia.com/ but doesn't say where open-source projects should apply.	11:55
timoph	Tronic: it does	11:56
bkalinga	Stskeeps: My /etc/zypp/repos.d/1.2-oss.repo [1.2-oss-debuginfo] contains http://download.meego.com/snapshots/1.2.0.90.0.20110517.1/repos/oss/ia32/debug	11:56
Jaffa	BluesLee: It's bundled.	11:56
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timoph	Tronic: the dev kit == n950	11:56
bkalinga	which is not a valid link	11:56
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bkalinga	can some one point me to the corect link	11:56
Tronic	timoph: Why are you only telling me things I already know?	11:57
Tronic	"Candidates must be community developers ready to start working on new or existing open source applications, to be published in apps.meego.com and the Nokia Store. Links to your current projects are relevant! Deadline for applications: end of Tuesday, June 28th.	11:57
timoph	Tronic: you seems to have already found the right place but you are clearly not seeing something	11:57
Jaffa	BluesLee: You a) update the Qt SDK using the "SDK Maintenance Tool"; b) add "Qt SDK > Experimental > Harmattan" packages; c) add Harmattan device configuration (qemu) under "Tools > Options..."; d) Go to "Projects > (+) > Harmattan"; e) make sure it's the Qt SDK Qt version, not the Platform SDK Qt version	11:57
Tronic	Where can I (a) become a community developer (haven't registered before) and (b) apply for a devkit	11:57
Jaffa	Tronic: And at the top of that forum post there's a link to the meego.com Community Device Programme.	11:58
timoph	Tronic: (a) register to meego.com (b) goto the dev kit page	11:58
Jaffa	Tronic: There, it'll prompt you for your meego.com account and/or how to get one	11:58
Jay_BEE	timoph is correct	11:59
TheBootroo	Jaffa: there http://www.developer.nokia.com/Developer_Programs/Launchpad.xhtml	11:59
Tronic	Jaffa: That's where I copy&pasted that text from. No instructions or form there. Maybe I need to have meego.com account, let's see...	11:59
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Jaffa	TheBootroo: That's for joining Nokia Developer Launchpad. I have that. There's no N9(50) programme under the Launchpad homepage when you get one.	11:59
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Tronic	Okay, logged in and now it shows that apply for device button. Thanks :)	12:04
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BluesLee	Jaffa: hmm .. i updated qt sdk as you described ... qt sdk version vs platform sdk qt version ... i have the qt creator running but i dont see tools/options there?	12:05
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Jaffa	BluesLee: Tools > Options > Maemo > Maemo Device Configuration	12:07
BluesLee	Jaffa: it seems to be configured in the settings for maemo: qemu	12:07
BluesLee	Jaffa: i have to google several things	12:08
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BluesLee	qemu server? hmmm	12:08
Jaffa	BluesLee: Leave as defaults.	12:09
TheBootroo	Jaffa: any way to extract harmattan binaries from harmattan target for sdk and make them run on maemo 5 (like facebook app and accuweather one, and the event timeline)	12:09
Jay_BEE	ok... tis bedtime for me... gn	12:10
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toninikkanen	i wonder does harmattan use the same ABI as fremantle ?	12:10
toninikkanen	hardfp vs softfp and so on	12:10
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Stskeeps	harmattan is hardfp, like meego 1.2 armv7hl	12:11
* alterego considers flash :)		12:11
alterego	Actually, does harmattan even have flash?	12:12
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toninikkanen	yes	12:12
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alterego	So it may be possible to use that plugin in MeeGo CE on the N9(5)	12:12
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alterego	~(50)	12:12
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alterego	Crap, for some reason evo has made all the mails in my inbox dissappear ..	12:14
Jaffa	toninikkanen: Harmattan doesn't have Flash according to the official docs.	12:14
BluesLee	Jaffa: okay, i get deployment errors as qemu is running but to slow?	12:14
alterego	Jaffa: the specs miss out on a few things it has.	12:14
alterego	Oh, it's selected "Unread messages"	12:14
Jaffa	alterego: Flash is pretty key.	12:14
alterego	Yes, it is :)	12:15
toninikkanen	Jaffa: hmm, that's weird if true	12:15
Jaffa	alterego: More specifically, it actually explicitly says nothing in the "Flash runtime"	12:15
Jaffa	BluesLee: Yeah, I had to get qemu started and then try and launch my app then (from within the UI)	12:15
Jaffa	It's a lot better with hardware GL, "auto-detect" obviously a bit crap	12:16
Stskeeps	http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/iloveagilebrowser.png - Agile Browser is so the best, unknown tool of meego	12:16
alterego	Is that the one they demo'd in SF?	12:16
Stskeeps	yes	12:16
alterego	That shows package deps?	12:17
Stskeeps	yes, for instance	12:17
alterego	Cool	12:17
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BluesLee	Jaffa: same with hardware gl here ...	12:19
BluesLee	are there are solutions with xephyr or whatever?	12:20
alterego	Stskeeps: did you get my message last night in handset?	12:21
TheBootroo	xephyr doesn't have GLX context support	12:21
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alterego	Stskeeps: the meego-terminal is a good cross-platform candidate :P	12:21
BluesLee	Jaffa: something happens :-)	12:21
Stskeeps	alterego: no	12:22
BluesLee	Stskeeps: wow, only a matter of hours:-) do i need to press some keys? i see a black landscape screen with kernel version ... something happens ... hehe	12:23
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Jaffa	BluesLee: None of Calculator, Clock, Notes, ... do anything for me. However, Widget Gallery starts and I can swipe to the multitasking view	12:27
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BluesLee	Jaffa: mentioned apps dont start ...	12:29
TheBootroo	BluesLee, Jaffa : are they fake apps ?	12:31
Jaffa	TheBootroo: Dunno. Only one which launches so far is Widget Gallery. Lack of a console (come back Scratchbox, all is forgiven!) makes diagnosing what's going on a bit tricky	12:31
TheBootroo	event timeline functionnal at least ?	12:32
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TheBootroo	or is there only menu + widget gallery	12:32
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Jaffa	TheBootroo: It's present. I haven't tried invoking dbus to put something on it yet	12:33
Jaffa	Oooh, something else started. One of the QML examples with a green icon	12:33
TheBootroo	snice accounts are functional, just try configure your facebook or twitter in it	12:34
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Termana	morning	12:37
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BluesLee	Jaffa: hehe ... its not big fun with the emulator so far	12:39
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bkalinga	i \| 1.2-oss \| servicefw \| 1.2.0~beta0+git2726-9.35 \| i586	12:40
bkalinga	i want a corresponding debug package	12:40
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Jaffa	achipa: Do you know what's supposed to work in the Harmattan qemu Qt SDK emulator? Most of the apps don't start (Widget Gallery and one of the QML demos do), so I dunno if my app not starting is a config error in Qt Creator, a code error or an issue in the emulator	12:40
bkalinga	from where i can get it?	12:40
BluesLee	Jaffa: check the drive app	12:40
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TheBootroo	do you think the few apps i made here are enough to get a N95à ? http://modern-os.projects.servhome.org/mobileApps/	12:44
Jaffa	TheBootroo: That's not for us to know. Ask and ye may receive	12:45
Jaffa	TheBootroo: I'd give you one just for showing a cool album in DiscoTek	12:45
TheBootroo	Jaffa: that's true, it's a very good album	12:46
TheBootroo	;-)	12:46
MeeGoExperts	Reminder: http://www.meetup.com/MeeGoExperts/	12:50
TheBootroo	blocked by my proxy	12:50
TheBootroo	Forbidden By Proxy You don't have permission to access http://www.meetup.com/MeeGoExperts/ on this server. Forbidden by category "ADVANCED_URL_ads".	12:50
MeeGoExperts	Wow. I didn't realise it was an Advanced URL	12:51
MeeGoExperts	Thought it was Standard … Lol	12:51
Jaffa	TheBootroo: Your work URL policy is shit	12:51
TheBootroo	Jaffa: you can't even imagine at which point	12:51
TheBootroo	Jaffa: the link a posted, i can't even visit it	12:51
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goshakkk	hey everyone	12:51
MeeGoExperts	So whos coming tomorrow ? Drinks + Food + MeeGo Chat …. What more could you ask for ???	12:52
TheBootroo	category 'phishing' lol	12:52
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TheBootroo	MeeGoExperts: N950 for everybody ?	12:52
alterego	Heh	12:52
timoph	MeeGoExperts: we're having food + drinks + sauna + meego chatter today :)	12:52
alterego	timoph: yeah, rub it in :P	12:53
alterego	And you've got N9's and N950's	12:53
TheBootroo	alterego: +110	12:53
MeeGoExperts	BUT …. Yes, Free N950 for EVERYONE …… (as long as I can get them)	12:53
timoph	alterego: :D	12:53
* alterego chuckles		12:53
alterego	(as long as I can get them) ;)	12:54
MeeGoExperts	+1 FREE Hooker …. Second one you need to pay for !!!!!\	12:54
alterego	I don't think it's fair bringing your mom into this	12:54
alterego	ooooo!	12:54
goshakkk	Can anybody recommend resources about development for N9 for man a little bit similar with Qt	12:54
MeeGoExperts	I'm SURE you didn't say that to me ?	12:55
alterego	goshakkk: what?	12:55
alterego	goshakkk: use Qt	12:55
alterego	"What you say about my momma!?!"	12:55
alterego	"Momma said knock you out!!"	12:55
* alterego does a little dance.		12:55
goshakkk	alterego: I'm just a beginner in Qt.	12:55
alterego	goshakkk: then read the tutorials, examples, best thing is to learn by doing	12:56
alterego	So just get in there!	12:56
Jaffa	alterego: That's what your mum said	12:56
BluesLee	what about the n9 rootfs? how are the dimensions, fs of the n9?	12:56
TheBootroo	Jaffa: XD	12:56
TheBootroo	BluesLee: yes i asked too but no1 answred	12:56
goshakkk	alterego: Can ya recommend tutorials?	12:56
alterego	N9 rootfs is 512M	12:57
alterego	With a presumably similar setup to the N900 with eMMC and "optification"	12:57
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alterego	I don't see why that matters though ..	12:58
goshakkk	alterego: Btw why the initial app created in Qt Creator doesn't work in both vertical and horizontal orientations? How can I change this behaviour?	12:58
alterego	You'll have more than enough space to install applications.	12:58
TheBootroo	alterego: why did they do that again	12:58
TheBootroo	why not a single partition for all OS	12:58
alterego	goshakkk: read tutorials, I'm not here to teach you and without an SDK or device I can't anyway :P	12:58
alterego	TheBootroo: because if the handset fails, it's safer to just reflash the rootfs rather than loose all of your data, it's a feature really.	12:59
alterego	But again, don't worry about it, why does it matter?	12:59
BluesLee	alterego: just asking:-)	12:59
TheBootroo	but 512 Mo is really too few with a 64GB device, there could be at least 8gb for System, and the rest for DOcs	12:59
alterego	TheBootroo: no, and stop worrying about it.	13:00
goshakkk	who will get N950?	13:00
TheBootroo	alterego: i worry because it's reallt bad	13:00
goshakkk	and when?	13:00
alterego	The 512M is NAND, it's much quicker than eMMC (which is the 16G or 64G)	13:00
alterego	It isn't bad	13:00
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alterego	So the 512M has the core operating system and the 16/64G is partitioned into application storage and user data.	13:00
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alterego	Now stop fucking worrying, IT DOESN'T MATTER	13:01
alterego	But if you'd prefer, Nokia could make a device that costs thousands because _you_ want a 64G NAND pop on your SoC ..	13:01
TheBootroo	alterego: developpers will still to do tricky changes to store data to the right path to not cause a rootfs overflo	13:01
alterego	TheBootroo: no, it's taken care of	13:02
* RST38h moos approvingly: yes, we definitely want a 64GB NAND POP		13:02
alterego	_STOP WORRYING IT DOESN'T MATTER_	13:02
TheBootroo	RST38h: +1000	13:02
Stskeeps	oi, caps	13:02
Stskeeps	:P	13:02
RST38h	alterego: actually, /ignore works on him	13:02
Stskeeps	alterego: actually, rootfs is on emmc	13:02
alterego	TheBootroo: what path are you going to to store data in?	13:02
RST38h	No need to scream	13:02
alterego	Stskeeps: really?	13:02
alterego	Heh	13:02
alterego	#meego the new tmo :P	13:02
boss	alterego: Error: "meego" is not a valid command.	13:02
alterego	Stskeeps: is NAND being used then?	13:03
TheBootroo	alterego: why are you that pedantic	13:03
Stskeeps	alterego: mtdswap probably	13:03
alterego	TheBootroo: I'm not pedantic, I know how the systems are supposed to work, you're just not listening.	13:03
TheBootroo	alterego: i just asked, half knowing the answer but hoping a change	13:03
alterego	TheBootroo: the only place you _should_ be storing data is in /home/user	13:03
alterego	TheBootroo: that is on eMMC, you have more than enough room	13:04
TheBootroo	alterego: i was speaking about program data, not user data	13:04
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alterego	TheBootroo: what program data? The executables? Images?	13:04
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Jaffa	BluesLee: Speed of qemu has meant I've had to increase "connection timeout" in Tools > Options... > Projects	13:04
alterego	TheBootroo: when you package your application it gets installed on the eMMC, that data is there, there is plenty of room.	13:04
TheBootroo	i know how a system works too, i'm developer and linux user since 8 years	13:04
Jaffa	BluesLee: Speed of qemu has meant I've had to increase "connection timeout" in Tools > Options... > Maemo	13:04
Jaffa	But now my app has started :-)	13:04
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TheBootroo	alterego: that's what i wanted to know	13:05
alterego	m'hmm	13:05
TheBootroo	i have some programs here with many ressources (big images, sounds..)	13:05
TheBootroo	think about games too	13:05
alterego	I don't need to think about it	13:05
alterego	Because I know it doesn't matter :P	13:05
TheBootroo	nothing else matters	13:06
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kavacha	I am getting errors when running image-creator	13:25
kavacha	sudo mic-image-creator -c handset-ia32-qemu.ks -f raw -k mycache --run-mode=1 --release latest --mainrepo oss	13:25
kavacha	http://pastebin.com/erEscVQJ	13:25
kavacha	has anyone encounterd such an issue	13:26
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dneary	andre__, Ping?	13:28
* slaine waves to dneary		13:29
dneary	Hi slaine	13:29
dneary	slaine, Do you know where the sources for the "package management" app(s) are?	13:30
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slaine	dneary: rpm, zypper, PackageKit ?	13:31
timoph	dneary: you mean the one in the community edition?	13:31
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dneary	timoph, Yes, I suppose?	13:31
timoph	wait-a-sec	13:31
dneary	slaine, See http://bugs.meego.com/11691	13:32
timoph	https://gitorious.org/meego-developer-edition-for-n900/mg-package-manager	13:32
dneary	So whichever piece of software is responsible for the error message "Dependency resolution failed: A package could not	13:32
dneary	be found that allows the action to complete. More information is available in	13:32
dneary	the detailed report."	13:32
dneary	timoph, Thanks	13:32
timoph	np	13:32
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* alterego wonders when the N9 availability will actually show up in the UK ..		13:33
slaine	I think that's PackageKit	13:33
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slaine	An abstraction over yum/zypper/apt	13:33
timoph	dneary: if you have questions about it ping kyranto in -arm or -qa	13:34
dneary	slaine, It's a terrible message	13:34
dneary	It should be:	13:34
slaine	dneary: I agree	13:35
slaine	Man, I should get some breakfast, it's 11:35 and I've been up since 6	13:35
dneary	"Dependency resolution failed for package '%s'. Please remove this package from your update list and try again."	13:35
dneary	Or whatever	13:35
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dneary	timoph, Silly question: are there instructions somewheer for how to get the sources?	13:37
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dneary	timoph, "git clone https://gitorious.org/meego-developer-edition-for-n900/mg-package-manager" didn't work	13:37
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timoph	dneary: try git://gitorious.org/meego-developer-edition-for-n900/mg-package-manager.git	13:38
slaine	dneary: I don't think that's the package manager you're looking for	13:38
timoph	it's not	13:38
Stskeeps	dneary: what UX?/device	13:38
timoph	that's only included in the community edition	13:38
dneary	Stskeeps, Lenovo	13:38
dneary	Netbook	13:38
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dneary	So prolly not that :)	13:38
Stskeeps	ah, must be packagekit then	13:38
bkalinga	download.meego.com is down today or permanently out of order??	13:39
slaine	dneary: I'd do an rpm query to see what package kit packages where installed, then have zypper download the source rpm	13:40
slaine	then try and hunt down the string	13:40
dneary	Thanks	13:40
slaine	patch would have to go upstream then	13:40
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alterego	The BBC news article on the N9 isn't exactly positive.	13:41
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slaine	You might also be able to do a strings command to find the file the owns the text and narrow down the package that owns it and therefore what source rpm you need	13:41
dneary	slaine, Packagekit-gnome	13:41
dneary	My desire to fix the problem just decreased :(	13:41
mece	alterego, url plz?	13:42
slaine	lol	13:42
slaine	yes, we can imagine how that would go	13:42
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dneary	alterego, Really? You found it not positive?	13:42
mece	alterego, nvrmind got it.	13:42
dneary	I wouldn't put it that way	13:42
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alterego	dneary: well, it wasn't positive :)	13:42
alterego	It leaned to the "dead end platform"	13:43
alterego	"Why is nokia doing this for such a niche segment" .	13:43
alterego	Blah	13:43
mece	alterego, well they actually said nothing about the phone. At all.	13:43
alterego	mece: indeed, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13863741	13:43
dneary	alterego, I would have said "negative" myself	13:43
slaine	"Nokia has unveiled a smartphone based around a technology that it has already started to sideline."	13:43
alterego	Heh	13:43
slaine	that's the opening sentence	13:43
dneary	"not positive" implies neutral somehow	13:43
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slaine	implies the opposite to positive to me	13:44
alterego	Well, they were trying to be neutral, but as the whole story was based around "nokia has unvieled a smartphone based around a technology that is has already started to sideline."	13:44
alterego	It's sort of hard to be neutral from _our_ perspective ;)	13:44
alterego	I guess we don't really know what Nokia will do with MeeGo	13:45
alterego	Though I've heard they've setup a permanent meego lab in Tampere	13:45
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alterego	This is something that only time will tell though :/	13:46
goshakkk	i'm sorry, but can I send some applications for device program? with different apps	13:46
slaine	We can only hope that they may continue with a few projects that they may have had in the fire already, especially if the N9 is well received. If it actually sells well, we can hope for more projects	13:46
slaine	But it's all up in the air	13:46
Damion_	bbc article not very positive	13:46
slaine	I've opened it in a tab, I'll read it later	13:47
alterego	I think in some ways, it needs to be played down, so that other manufacturers feel more inclined to come on board MeeGo	13:47
Damion_	that obviously means negative. I think I need to pass this around: http://www.albertoandreu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Diapositiva11.jpg	13:47
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slaine	right now, I've to figure out why libmpeg2 on vlc 1.1.x doesn't work too well :(	13:47
alterego	But it is our only "MeeGo" handset.	13:47
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alterego	And the device kind of seems like they've cut a few corners to stay in some budget of some kind.	13:48
alterego	I'll be quite suprised if it sells for more than the N8	13:48
alterego	Even disappointed.	13:48
slaine	alterego: my guess is that they had to scramble with some compromised version of the N9 to get it out when the N950 was rejected late last year.	13:49
alterego	Yeah, maybe	13:49
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Damion_	rejected by elop?	13:51
slaine	Damion_: No, carriers	13:52
slaine	I think that's when they had crisis meetings and conjured up WP7 devices	13:52
Aranel	noob question Installed MeeGo 1.2 on Ideapad, where can I get software for it? Garage doesn't work and software sources list is empty.	13:53
alterego	That may explain why the N9 doesn't look like it's in the UK and USA yet ^.^	13:53
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slaine	Aranel: shouldn't be empty at all, there's plenty of software in the default repos	13:54
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Aranel	slaine: default repos :\| I don't have them. Where can I get a list of them?	13:55
slaine	Aranel: they are there by default	13:56
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slaine	you need to be online for them to work though, I assume your netbook is online	13:56
Aranel	it's online	13:56
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Aranel	slaine: I touch on Manage Apps, select a category, and It shows up empty (Filter: Only Available)	13:59
slaine	strange alright	14:00
Aranel	slaine: btw what's the rpm equivalent of "apt-get update"?	14:00
Aranel	I want to try terminal way.	14:01
slaine	sudo zypper dist-upgrade	14:01
slaine	Google for the zypper cheat sheet, I find it helpful	14:01
slaine	as I mostly use yum	14:01
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Damion_	is there somewhere I can chat about the n950 with somebody who has one? I've done a /list -YES and no channel mas "950" in it's topic/name	14:05
Aranel	slaine: Building repository "1.2.0-non-oss" Download (curl) error for "http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.2.0/repos/oss/ia32/packages/repodata/repomd.xml": Error code: Connection failed Error message: Couldn't resolve host 'repo.meego.com'	14:06
slaine	Aranel: actually, somebody mentioned earlier that download.meego.com was out of service, it looks like they're having some trouble	14:07
slaine	Hmm, I just tried the url and it works for me	14:07
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Aranel	slaine: works for me on my Ubuntu box too, weird. :\|	14:08
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slaine	looks like your meego box isn't online	14:08
slaine	after all	14:08
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Aranel	slaine: I'm pretty sure It's online, I'm browsing web using chrome (and I can open that link too), for some reason zypper can't connect but chrome does.	14:12
goshakkk	so can anybody tell me can I send 2-3 applications for n950?	14:13
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RST38h	goshakk: You can send as many as you want	14:14
RST38h	you /whois texrat	14:14
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lardman	morning	14:14
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RST38h	moorning lardman	14:17
lardman	hi RST38h	14:17
IcanCU	whats this n950?	14:18
alterego	goshakkk: you can do but isn't that a bit greedy?	14:19
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lardman	iirc there's a section where you can say what else you plan to do with the devicev	14:19
goshakkk	alterego: for example if I have many ideas for apps, what should I do?	14:19
lardman	apart from your main project proposal	14:20
timoph	goshakkk: no. just one. read quim's post on the forum	14:20
goshakkk	timoph: can you give a link please	14:20
alterego	goshakkk: why do you need multiple devices?	14:20
timoph	wait-a-sec	14:20
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goshakkk	alterego: no. I need one device. I only need to enlarge my chance of getting N9 Devkit	14:21
alterego	Then list your ideas in the text field.	14:21
alterego	goshakkk: will they be free open source apps?	14:22
lardman	goshakkk: Jaffa quotes Quim at the top of this page: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=2901&page=7	14:22
lardman	for reference	14:22
goshakkk	alterego: 'cuz I think MeeGo is very perspective platform. Even better that Android, WP7 and Symbian	14:22
goshakkk	alterego: probably yes	14:22
alterego	Well, if they're not you should apply for a devkit through nokia developer.	14:23
vvaltone	Is the N9/N950 really MeeGo?	14:23
juliank	As arjan commented previously, the Nokia devices are not MeeGo devices	14:23
vvaltone	ah, yes	14:24
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alterego	The the closest thing we have to a meego handset	14:24
goshakkk	alterego: but without a device I can't make them. That's bad.	14:24
goshakkk	Maybe only one will be closed-source. I sent appliiation for joining launchpad	14:24
alterego	They're ..	14:24
goshakkk	alterego: but it can't be applyed yet	14:24
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alterego	goshakkk: well, apply there, the meego n950s are for community developers.	14:25
goshakkk	wasn't*	14:25
juliank	They use Harmattan, which is basically what Maemo 6 would have been, a Debian-based distribution with apt and friends, but with the MeeGo API stack on top	14:25
alterego	And taking our limited devices isn't very nice :P	14:25
TheBootroo	vvaltone: meego = 50% maemo 50%moblin and harmattan = 50 % maemo 50% meego ;-)	14:25
alterego	Especially if you plan on charging us for it.	14:25
alterego	juliank: yes, we know.	14:25
goshakkk	alterego: I tried. When there will be results?	14:26
alterego	It's meego on debian :P	14:26
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alterego	goshakkk: be patient.	14:26
TheBootroo	goshakkk: i hope you don't start dev just today only to get a free N950 ?	14:26
alterego	The 250 devices meego.com are distributing are loan devices for those of us that contribute to meego, if you're not a contributer your chances are quite slim of obtaining one.	14:27
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juliank	alterego: And it ships a python-apt release from last year which I do not support anymore. I'd be much happier if it would be updated to version 0.7.100.1	14:27
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goshakkk	TheBootroo: um, my Harmattan emulator works ver-very slow so the only way to develop app is having MeeGo device. I really wanna develop for MeeGo... It impressed me more that Android, WP7. Only iOS is better	14:28
alterego	meh, who needs python :P	14:28
timoph	alterego: true. and even among the active contributors it's going to be tough to get one since there's only 250 of those	14:28
alterego	goshakkk: if you're doing this commercially, which it sounds like you plan to, then wait for nokia developer and please don't take our limited devices away from the community.	14:29
goshakkk	alterego: I'm. but... Harmattan really inpressed me. I need it asap to start dev for MeeGo....... And make awesome apps the easy way	14:29
alterego	We all need it ASAP	14:29
lardman	lol	14:29
alterego	In the same way we need next years model now.	14:29
alterego	Stop, take some deep breathes and be patient.	14:29
timoph	goshakkk: you won't get a device from meego.com program for commercial development	14:29
goshakkk	alterego: ok...	14:30
lardman	Is there any info about how the device will sync?	14:30
alterego	Your life doesn't depend on it :P	14:30
TheBootroo	hope i'll get mine in time to allow coding during holidays (mid august)	14:30
goshakkk	alterego timoph : I am willing to develop open source apps, most of all	14:30
goshakkk	and learn platform at all	14:31
alterego	goshakkk: we have 250 devices for community developers, having people randomly promising that they might develop a few free open soure apps doesn't help us.	14:31
alterego	It just makes the decision of who to give devices to harder for the commitee.	14:32
TheBootroo	alterego: for my part i've made many apps for maemo 5 in qt and i will rewrite them using MTF, and create new ones	14:32
pabs3	alterego: how long is the loan for? and what happens to the devices when they are given back?	14:32
juliank	alterego: I want one, but I don't have any special cool thing planned. Does writing a few applications and help the MeeGo community project sound like a good reason?	14:32
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goshakkk	alterego: for example I am planning to develop client for Russian social network called VK, the facebook clone, which is very popular in there. and some productivity apps	14:32
alterego	TheBootroo: then you're the kind of person that should apply ;)	14:32
BluesLee	alterego: i can write a "hello world" app ;-)	14:33
alterego	The devices are loaned until N9 release, then you get a choice of trading it for an N9 or keeping it.	14:33
BluesLee	hehe	14:33
TheBootroo	alterego: already done ;-)	14:33
alterego	TheBootroo: good job :)	14:33
goshakkk	alterego: so when N9 releases I can exchange N950 for n9, right?	14:33
pabs3	alterego: nice, I doubt you will get many trade-ins though :)	14:33
poly__	Especially since you can't replace the battery on the n9.	14:34
TheBootroo	alterego: still have to wait, hope it will take less than 1 month	14:34
alterego	goshakkk: no	14:34
TheBootroo	goshakkk: you can pay for it	14:34
BluesLee	exchanging for which price?	14:34
goshakkk	alterego: but I can save N950 for free, right?	14:35
alterego	TheBootroo: sounds like they're pushing very hard, that's why the deadline is Monday :)	14:35
Jaffa	juliank: It is a "MeeGo device", it's OS is officially listed as "MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan". See, it says MeeGo. It's not MeeGo compliant, but it's got use of the MeeGo trademark to describe its OS :-p	14:35
Jaffa	juliank: If we're being pedantic	14:35
TheBootroo	BluesLee: kind like 7	14:35
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TheBootroo	BluesLee: kind like 40% cost down	14:35
timoph	goshakkk: about applying it from two places see -> http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=22847&postcount=28	14:35
juliank	Jaffa: Yeah, somehow.	14:35
leinir	mmm, pedanticism ;)	14:35
BluesLee	TheBootroo: i thought of wp7;-)	14:35
BluesLee	TheBootroo: the device is not available in germany so far, no one knows the real prices, so i dont see the big advantage to jump on the train	14:36
goshakkk	timoph: I sent my application to Launchpad for firts because I didn't know about MeeGo device program	14:37
TheBootroo	BluesLee: N9 is not available in France neither	14:37
juliank	It has just been presented, I don't expect it to be available in the next months	14:38
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BluesLee	TheBootroo: in the end i may have to pay for taxes and 3 months after that the n9 is available in my country for the same price	14:38
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achipa	Jaffa: don't know, a bit swamped with SDK setup buzz, will get back to you on that	14:39
BluesLee	the general idea to generate apps via a loan program for community members is not bad	14:39
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goshakkk	alterego: but I can save N950 for free, right?	14:40
BluesLee	we will see how the commercial devs will treat n9/meego	14:40
TheBootroo	goshakkk: STFU you freaking parasite	14:41
goshakkk	TheBootroo: WTF?!	14:41
Jaffa	achipa: It's OK - I've got the SDK launching Attitude, so it's more a question of interest.	14:41
Jaffa	achipa: I'll do step-by-step instructions on how I got it up & running	14:41
X-Fade	TheBootroo: Turn it down a bit please. I'm warning you.	14:41
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katsrc	hello	14:42
achipa	Jaffa: don't forget it's beta, has some stuff stripped (partners, etc, etc) so not entirely sure what should or shouldn't work out of the box	14:43
katsrc	does anyone know if there will be more mobile manufacturers who will use MeeGo on handsets?	14:43
achipa	(from the builtin stuff)	14:43
katsrc	has any of the companies announced anything yet?	14:43
Jaffa	achipa: Well, "Calculator" and "Clock" don't do anything.	14:43
achipa	katsrc: after the N9 demo, I'm pretty sure.	14:43
Aranel	Installed MeeGo 1.2 on Ideapad but I can't get new software :\| zypper cant resolve repo.meego.com, but same url works on chrome. How/Where can I get software?	14:43
katsrc	achipa: nice	14:44
mece	achipa, does it have.. umm.. skype, for example?	14:46
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achipa	mece: the qemu image ? I doubt it	14:46
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TheBootroo	goshakkk: i jsut told you that because was the third time you ask if you can keep the phone after the N9 come out : we are not there ATM, start developing with qt, and wait for developer device comitee answer and stop annoying us with commercial aspects of a free operation concerning free software....	14:46
achipa	that's usually one of the first things that go. then twitter, facebook, and friends	14:47
mece	achipa, heh oh.. I didn't read enough of the discussion apparently :) I meant the n950 :)	14:47
TheBootroo	X-Fade: don't take it bad, i just talk with some noob here ;-)	14:47
achipa	mece: of course. It has more account plugins than the N900	14:47
X-Fade	TheBootroo: You sound like that too.	14:47
achipa	about 2x as much	14:47
mece	achipa, yep yep :)	14:47
TheBootroo	X-Fade: after all my language was not very delicate, i admit	14:48
goshakkk	TheBootroo: ...	14:48
goshakkk	who is noob?	14:48
goshakkk	14 year-old programmer with great knowledge of Ruby?	14:48
TheBootroo	X-Fade: but i'm far from a noo you know	14:48
achipa	we'll need an irc one, though... not mainstream enough to be in a 'real' firmware	14:48
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TheBootroo	Jaffa: so the SDK is just like an empty shell right ? at least can it run MTF apps flawlessly ?	14:48
mece	achipa, xchat is on the list of requested apps... http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=74154	14:49
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timoph	mece: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=xchat&project=home%3Atimoph	14:50
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mece	timoph, so will that be for harmattan too?	14:51
timoph	mece: dunno	14:51
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Jaffa	TheBootroo: The SDK is not an empty shell - it has lots of icons, some of which work. It can run my QML application.	14:53
TheBootroo	goshakkk: no, i have nothing against 14 years old people (i started dev at 9), neither Ruby (that i don't pratice), it's more about a guy that 'wanna do that but don't know how to, help plz kthx' or that want something without preocupating of the goals and constraints of an open source project and talks like all was about money....	14:53
TheBootroo	Jaffa: does accounts and sharing framework work ?	14:54
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bkalinga	My /etc/zypp/repos.d/1.2-oss.repo contains baseurl=http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.2.0/repos/oss/source/	14:54
bkalinga	but it is not there now	14:54
TheBootroo	Jaffa: because first apps i'll do may be a dropbox integration	14:54
goshakkk	TheBootroo: I started dev at 9 too. my first lang was probably PHP.	14:54
bkalinga	to where it got moved	14:54
alterego	Hah, is PHP a language?	14:54
bkalinga	how can i sync to its present Location	14:55
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TheBootroo	alterego: it should be	14:55
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alterego	pfft	14:56
javispedro	so, make a proposal stating you want to maintain the php qt bindings ;)	14:56
TheBootroo	Jaffa: does Google sync work (i mean, real mail push without NOkia messaging which is lame, and calendar sync ) better than on maemo ?	14:56
alterego	Hahah	14:56
BluesLee	TheBootroo: consider that the sdk n9 simulator is very slow	14:56
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goshakkk	alterego: yes ;) but now I understand how stupid that lang is... Ruby is the best ;)	14:56
goshakkk	Btw, why there is the way to dev for N9 with Python, but there is not any way to dev with Ruby?	14:56
alterego	Ruby is good for what ruby does good, just like any app.	14:57
TheBootroo	javispedro: never get the point about php bindings : you can dev qt UX using php ? WTF...	14:57
alterego	goshakkk: because someone stopped maintaining the ruby maemo port ..	14:57
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alterego	coughs	14:57
javispedro	you know, using the best language for the tool..	14:57
TheBootroo	BluesLee: its not about slowness but about buginess i wanna know	14:57
javispedro	the other day I dreamt of verilog QT bindings	14:57
javispedro	its not actually unreasonable if you think about it	14:58
goshakkk	alterego: it's very bad	14:58
bkalinga	warning: /var/cache/zypp/packages/1.2-oss-debuginfo/qt-mobility-debuginfo-1.2.0~beta0+git2726-9.31.i586.rpm: Header V3 RSA/SHA1 Signature, key ID 44e4155a: NOKEY	14:58
alterego	I wouldn't use either for graphical apps if you value user experience :P	14:58
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javispedro	always @(click button1)	14:58
alterego	goshakkk: what is bad?	14:58
javispedro	#1 $do(animation)	14:58
boss	javispedro: Error: "1" is not a valid command.	14:58
bkalinga	how to solve this /var/cache/zypp/packages/1.2-oss-debuginfo/qt-mobility-debuginfo-1.2.0~beta0+git2726-9.31.i586.rpm Public key is unavailable	14:58
alterego	goshakkk: if you want to develop for meego, learn Qt/C++	14:58
goshakkk	alterego 02:57:24 PM	14:58
goshakkk	goshakkk: because someone stopped maintaining the ruby maemo port ..	14:58
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goshakkk	alterego: i know C++ a bit. and used Qt many moons ago.	14:59
alterego	Yes, it was me.	14:59
alterego	I used to do a ruby for maemo, but lost interest	14:59
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alterego	I basically lost interest when the N900 came out and decided I wanted to write apps instead of wasting time maintaining ruby ..	15:00
goshakkk	alterego: but I can learn C++ well, while developing an app for perspective platform ;)	15:00
TheBootroo	at basis Qt = C++	15:00
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goshakkk	TheBootroo: but Qt's QML is not	15:00
TheBootroo	goshakkk: IMHO QML is not adapted to development, only to skin UX	15:01
TheBootroo	i find QML pointless as independent language	15:01
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goshakkk	TheBootroo: i know	15:01
* alterego wonders off.		15:02
TheBootroo	i would more see it like a newer version of Qss, a dynamical style sheeting language for QWidget or MTF	15:02
goshakkk	guys, is there some reference tables for iOS developers to help with migrating to MeeGo?	15:02
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* TheBootroo warns alterego about nostalgia		15:02
TheBootroo	goshakkk: intel was talking about this months ago but didn't yet saw the day ligh	15:03
goshakkk	TheBootroo: it's bad... For me dev for iOS was something native. But dev for MeeGo doesn't seem like it.	15:04
goshakkk	TheBootroo: yet	15:04
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alterego	QML has no relation to MTF or QWidget	15:04
TheBootroo	goshakkk: start learning, there are many resources over the web for Qt4 and MeeGoTouchFramework	15:05
TheBootroo	alterego: i know	15:05
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bkalinga	when I manually edit the /etc/zypp/repos.d/1.2-oss.repo file to add a new repo ;Do i need to do some other steps apart from zypper refresh	15:05
TheBootroo	alterego: i said that i would prefer QML as styling language for them instead of a full programming languaue because the syntax is not done for that	15:05
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bkalinga	I am getting some error related to Public key	15:06
bkalinga	can some one please point whats wrong?	15:06
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TheBootroo	alterego: like on a QPushButton, put a style kinda "shadow: 3px black; max-width: parent.width - 20px;"	15:07
alterego	QWidget already handles style sheets like that.	15:07
TheBootroo	alterego: nope	15:09
TheBootroo	not such advanced properties	15:09
TheBootroo	only a subset of css 2 and css3	15:09
TheBootroo	you can't use vars or objects	15:09
TheBootroo	you can't even set "DEFAULT_BLUE: #4500C0;" and then use "border: 1px solid DEFAULT_BLUE"	15:10
TheBootroo	but that what i would like	15:10
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TheBootroo	but instead, qt dev are putting all their strenght into QML but i'll not use it : i don't make javascript/json app, i do C++	15:11
alterego	The idea of QML is to write thin UXs ontop of C++	15:14
TheBootroo	Jaffa: did you found how to force hard GL in SDK ?	15:14
TheBootroo	alterego: QLM syntax is not thin	15:14
TheBootroo	QML make too indented and too property-based syntax	15:15
alterego	That's the point, and it's great	15:16
alterego	It's up to you how much logic you put into javascript, or little.	15:16
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alterego	QML as a declarative interface design language is brilliant. and If you don't want to use it, then use the designer instead ..	15:17
TheBootroo	its not really javascript, there is almost no proggramming, only declaration, i call it litteraly JSON	15:17
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TheBootroo	i prefer my_button->setSize(25, 45); than my_button { width: 25; height: 45; }; its more evident : if you have too many things about my-button, you don't seen the name of the class and you get many more subdeclarations, keeping the code unreadable	15:17
alterego	That makes no sense.	15:18
TheBootroo	alterego: QML should be used in QtDesigner classic to skin widgets in place of old Qss	15:18
Jaffa	TheBootroo: Tools > Options... > Maemo > qemu setup	15:19
leinir	...those are two completely different use cases, TheBootroo	15:19
TheBootroo	alterego: plus : QML is interpreted language, much slower than classic designer which is turned to plain C++ by the moc	15:19
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TheBootroo	leinir: maybe butn in this case, i don't agree people who want to do big programs entirely in QML, that makes no sense	15:20
lcuk	TheBootroo, use case dependent. sometimes the intrinsics and animation stuff inside qml will be as fast as what you could do the same manually	15:20
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leinir	What you did in the first one would be my_button.height = 45; my_button.width = 25;	15:20
lcuk	but for data processing requirements and real processing, c++ is still best	15:20
leinir	my_button { width: 25; height: 45; } would be declating a new, unnamed object of type my_button	15:21
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TheBootroo	leinir: no in C++ we dont set property directely, we use proper functions, setters	15:21
lcuk	we lazier coders will use properties :P	15:21
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leinir	TheBootroo: i'm not saying your c++ was invalid, i'm saying your QML was not doing the same thing :P	15:22
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lcuk	morning leinir and Jaffa \o	15:22
lcuk	and tom	15:22
TheBootroo	lcuk: that's ugly and what i love about Qt coding is that its proper and logical	15:22
TheBootroo	leinir: maybe. i don't use QML	15:23
lcuk	wow :P first time I have heard c++ described as proper and logical	15:23
Jaffa	lcuk: o/	15:23
* lcuk thought the one true language was c		15:23
Jaffa	Perl	15:23
leinir	The QML code would be equivalent to this C++ code: { my_button* lala = new my_button(someparentobject); my_button->setSize(25, 45); } (very important with the outer curly braces, because you're declaring it in a way so it exists but you can't reference it by name later on)	15:23
lcuk	heh	15:23
TheBootroo	leinir: but last time i tried to modifiy a small app un QML, i was surprisedof the complexity of the code, with all these declaration nested	15:23
TheBootroo	lcuk: not plain C++, i talk about Qt Classes	15:24
lcuk	TheBootroo, you have same nesting in C++ OO class trees	15:24
lcuk	c++ is fun until you start overloading operators	15:24
lcuk	then when you add things up and find somebody did a switcharoo on the + operator ;)	15:25
leinir	lcuk: c++ is all fun and games until someone redefines new ;)	15:25
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lcuk	heh	15:25
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alterego	Heh	15:25
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leinir	(yes, i'm aware that it has its uses)	15:26
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TheBootroo	lcuk: QML mix the hierarchical widgets nesting (rectangle in rectangle in rectangle) and the functional nesting (in a given object i do something in this state, in that one ... etc)	15:26
timoph	lcuk: why? you can fun with overloading new	15:26
timoph	oh. leinir brought that up already :)	15:26
TheBootroo	so the syntax gets quickly heavy	15:26
lcuk	other people can	15:26
* lcuk writes pseudocode		15:27
TheBootroo	at least use QML just like Designer use XML and implement the functional in plain C++	15:27
TheBootroo	but mixing both make the thing very indigest	15:27
lcuk	not joking either timoph --> http://liqbase.net/liq.20110621_200232.codebox4.scr.png	15:27
javispedro	ovirriding operators in c++ has many many surprises even when you do not do outright evil stuff	15:27
timoph	lcuk: cool	15:27
lcuk	timoph, many many times I would half draw an outline for a class or function onto paper	15:28
lcuk	now I can just do it in my handtyping	15:28
timoph	:D	15:28
alterego	TheBootroo: you can do that already ..	15:35
alterego	That is the point, but qml is nice to edit, and I don't like designers.	15:35
Jaffa	lcuk: That looks like Pascal...	15:36
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pabs3	lcuk: whats that font?	15:36
slaine	Jaffa: the Begin/End takes me back alright	15:38
Jaffa	I was doing Delphi 5 years ago :-(	15:38
slaine	Ouch	15:38
Jaffa	After being employed to do Java. That was a shock.	15:38
slaine	Well, we've all got our scares. I was forced to do VB6 stuff for a while	15:39
lardman	hmm, I had to do some VB6 a couple of weeks ago	15:39
lardman	not pleasant on Win7	15:40
TheBootroo	slaine: me too :X	15:40
lcuk	pabs3, that is my handwriting	15:40
lcuk	Jaffa, that is nonsensical code	15:40
lcuk	but there is a parser for it	15:40
lcuk	as yet not wired up, but it exists	15:40
pabs3	lcuk: :) nice, needs some anti-aliasing though	15:41
RST38h	Delphi still exists in open source	15:41
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lcuk	pabs3, at 250dpi+ I dont	15:41
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lcuk	anti aliasing makes font lines 2x as wide	15:41
lcuk	but anti aliasing is available when I use qpainter to render sketchfonts in	15:42
lcuk	so people will be able to choose :)	15:42
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diegoviola	hi	15:51
diegoviola	does MeeGo uses Wayland or will use in the future?	15:51
pabs3	I heard it is planned for the future. 1.4 or something	15:51
diegoviola	wow, great!	15:51
diegoviola	thanks!	15:51
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Jaffa	Planning and changes are afoot to try and get it in in 1.3	15:51
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bkalinga	i have /etc/pki/rpm-gpg/RPM-GPG-KEY-meego will it be valid for all repos that i add to /etc/zypp/repos.d/1.2-oss.repo	15:53
pabs3	based on what the Debian maintainer of it says, I wouldn't bet on wayland being useful	15:53
bkalinga	or this needs to be modified	15:54
pebcak	pabs3 guess it depends on what you want ;)	15:55
diegoviola	pabs3: it's just a matter of getting apps ported to it i guess, Wayland is a serious win in lots of things.	15:55
diegoviola	less footprint than X, KMS, etc	15:55
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diegoviola	X is more useful now though	15:58
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diegoviola	Google also rewrote graphics stack for Android? I'm not sure.	15:59
RST38h	Does Android have a graphics stack?	16:00
lcuk	pixelflinger	16:00
ShadowJK	i thought pretty much all of it was custom	16:00
lcuk	reasonably low level java based engine	16:00
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RST38h	Yep, so far, lookslike a collection of semirandom Java classes	16:00
lcuk	works well so I hear	16:00
RST38h	And yes, I am honestly trying to develop for Android nowadays	16:01
pebcak	diegobz you mean zygote?	16:01
RST38h	lcuk: Works like the old PalmOS raped by Symbian.	16:01
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RST38h	lcuk: But at least it looks like its designers are actually using whatever they design on the daily basis	16:02
DocScrutinizer	I'd consider X an immutable mandatory component of any proper linuxoid OS	16:02
javispedro	android has a graphics stack	16:02
javispedro	it's ..	16:02
javispedro	I have no words.	16:02
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RST38h	Doc: Why?	16:02
lcuk	it is fast enough	16:02
DocScrutinizer	otherwise it's... well Andrid, or other crap	16:03
RST38h	Doc: X is really mostly to provide universal local+remote access to the desktop	16:03
javispedro	the android graphics stack has references up to the BeOS ;)	16:03
RST38h	Doc: So, a Linux with the plain /dev/fb* device is still a Linux	16:03
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DocScrutinizer	not in my book	16:03
pebcak	xdirectfb? :D	16:03
RST38h	Doc: You are being a purist	16:03
ShadowJK	X mostly lets you run tons of existing software	16:04
DocScrutinizer	as mentioned above, I consider X11 madatory	16:04
RST38h	Doc: In this particular case, wrongly	16:04
Damion_	needing a GUI is for n00bs	16:04
javispedro	I agree with Doc here, my definition of sane Linux includes X.	16:04
pebcak	and let#s you run it over network :P	16:04
Damion_	anyway won't wayland have an X11 compatible module?	16:04
* lcuk still wants visual basic 6 on his devices		16:04
RST38h	javispedro: Even if the only thing you ever use it for is to blit locally stored bitmaps?	16:04
pebcak	Damion_ you can run x on top of it	16:04
Damion_	all that's going to happen is some apps with not be network transparent in the same way ?	16:04
diegoviola	Damion_: Wayland allows you to host a Xorg session as a Wayland client.	16:04
Damion_	like when Sun has NeWS	16:04
javispedro	RST38h: do you use it for something else these days?	16:04
RST38h	javoispedro: exactly	16:05
RST38h	javispedro: Even for remote access, I use VNC	16:05
Damion_	or with OpenGL which is uselss if you're not local. Some wayland only GUI apps not being able to be X forwarded is no loss as long as a wayland system can still receive an xterm	16:05
RST38h	Which works beautifully with the plain framebuffer	16:05
pebcak	vnc sucks	16:05
pebcak	:P	16:05
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lcuk	and as a purest think any computer without Msvbvm60.dll incomplete ;)	16:05
javispedro	lcuk: even MS!	16:05
RST38h	lcuk: Any Windows computer.	16:06
Damion_	is that the new vbRun200.dll ?	16:06
RST38h	lcuk: Don't stick your dirty file into Unix ones =)	16:06
* lcuk giggles		16:06
Damion_	last time I used windows was over a decade ago	16:06
javispedro	Damion_: s/new//	16:06
lcuk	RST38h, I make linux binaries and still call them .exe	16:06
pebcak	lcuk yuck	16:06
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RST38h	lcuk: And you name shell scripts with .bat? =)	16:06
lcuk	:D hell yeah	16:07
javispedro	lcuk: you should talk more with miguel de icaza, you have many things to share	16:07
RST38h	Anyways, I do not consider X such a big issue, personally	16:07
lcuk	no	16:07
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RST38h	I do consider POSIX compatibility a big issue though	16:07
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Damion_	anyone in london want to see the n950 ?	16:07
lcuk	javispedro, the thing I am getting at: visualbasic 6 ide is splendid	16:07
RST38h	Whatever you do to that libc and libsockets and libpthreads, they should be compliant	16:07
lcuk	and was designed for lower screen resolutions	16:07
lcuk	so my 1024*600 ideapad is closer to its original design size	16:08
lcuk	(regularly had it on 800*600 desktops)	16:08
javispedro	lcuk: are you talking about the sdi or mdi one?	16:08
pebcak	Damion_ could you send it to berlin?	16:08
pebcak	:D	16:08
lcuk	javispedro, MDI, I like my sanity	16:09
lcuk	otherwise it looks like GIMP	16:09
Jucato	hello. quick question, is a 4GB micro SD (class 6) enough for meego 1.2 CE or do I need 8GB? should I even be asking this in here? :)	16:09
lcuk	and windows get lost	16:09
Stskeeps	Jucato: sounds good	16:09
pebcak	lcuk ever seen gimp unstable?	16:09
lcuk	Jucato, 4gb is perfect	16:09
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Jaffa	Damion_: Damn. Am tomorrow/Friday, but working from home today	16:09
Jucato	Stskeeps, lcuk: ah thanks. I finally found one earlier in a local store. unfortunately, not enough funds. will try again in a few days and hope they still have stock. :)	16:10
pebcak	http://pebcak.deviantart.com/gallery/221404 << gimp unstable <3	16:10
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Jaffa	berndhs: So who do you trust? (re: https://twitter.com/#!/berndhs/statuses/83523388571779073)	16:19
Jaffa	berndhs: Any UX which is vaguely MeeGoish has been developed behind closed doors and thrown over the wall.	16:19
berndhs	its just when a company changes their story a few times, and says things that are only technically true, my trust in them is limited	16:20
berndhs	that's normal I think	16:20
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Jaffa	berndhs: Which company and "things" are you referring to?	16:20
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berndhs	Nokia about their MeeGo policies	16:20
berndhs	and actually about Maemo as well	16:21
leinir	Just be a pesimist and expect everybody to take you for a ride, because then you can be pleasantly surprised when, from time to time, they don't ;)	16:21
berndhs	what they have done over the past 18 months or so makes them hard to predict for outsiders	16:21
leinir	and the rest of the time you can have the smug self-satisfaction of "I told you so"-ness ;)	16:22
Jucato	leinir: taking quotes from me? :P	16:22
Jaffa	I'm not sure it "changed" - it evolved and got bigger, until it fundamentally changed on Feb 11th.	16:22
berndhs	MeeGo was a surprise for the Maemo community, wasn't it ?	16:22
Jaffa	As it was to the Moblin community, wasn't it?	16:22
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berndhs	my point is that without insider knowledge, Nokia is not predictable	16:23
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Jaffa	berndhs: OK, but are you claiming that someone else is?	16:23
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berndhs	no I'm saying that Nokia isn't	16:23
Jaffa	Well if no-one is predictable, Nokia not being either is a bit of a non-statement ;-)	16:23
berndhs	and this isn't Elop, it's Nokia	16:23
Damion_	back later	16:24
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RST38h	Hell, Nokia is unpredictable even with insider knowledge	16:24
RST38h	May have to resort to psychiatrists and the chaos theory	16:25
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MSM	And the phases of the moon	16:25
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berndhs	as long as you don't need to do any planning of your own based on what they do, that's ok	16:26
monoid	BERND	16:26
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fiferboy	How many different sets of "components" (QtQuick, QML, ?) are there?	16:31
fiferboy	I am losing track	16:32
TheBootroo	qml it language	16:32
TheBootroo	qtquick is framewrok	16:32
TheBootroo	there is a kit of components for meego : macro qml element : MeeGo Components	16:33
TheBootroo	there are Qwidgets from Qt plain C++	16:33
TheBootroo	and there are Widgets developped by nokia team on top of QGraphicsItem : MeeGo Touch Framework	16:33
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berndhs	and there are the components used by the N9 stuff	16:34
TheBootroo	SO you are doing Qt (hear QWidget), QML (QtQuick with MeeGO Components) or MTF (MeeGo Touch Framework)	16:34
monoid	have you n9 specs	16:34
TheBootroo	berndhs: N9 uses MTF	16:35
TheBootroo	berndhs: just a theme on top	16:35
berndhs	ah I see	16:35
fiferboy	I am trying to figure out the minimum number of UIs I need to target desktop, the various MeeGo platforms, and Harmattan	16:35
pvuorela	TheBootroo: mtf and qt components.	16:35
pvuorela	and qt components is what app developers should use.	16:35
TheBootroo	and there is a subset of MTF used by meego tablet UX (which is in QML but needs Qt Classes) named MLite (or MLT)	16:36
TheBootroo	Qt Components are 'official' meta widgets for QML	16:36
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TheBootroo	pvuorela: developer could use MTF, which is base framework for Harmattan by example	16:37
fiferboy	So I can safely forget about MTF since it is only (?) used in Harmattan, but you can also use plain Qt and QML there	16:37
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monoid	too many puppies	16:37
TheBootroo	IMHO MTF is closer to plain Qt and looks better too.	16:37
berndhs	Harmattan might really fly in the market and be continued	16:38
TheBootroo	berndhs: yes	16:38
fiferboy	TheBootroo: But was is the future potential of MTF? Isn't it being phased out most places?	16:38
TheBootroo	fiferboy: MTF != QML	16:39
slaine	fiferboy: that's my understanding, the problem is that there's a disconnect between the MeeGo UX Components and the Qt Components used in Harmatten for QML apps	16:39
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fiferboy	TheBootroo: Right, I would rather focus on QML if MTF is being deprecated	16:39
TheBootroo	fiferboy: MTF is for guys (like me) who want beautiful Hardware accelerated UI in plain C++	16:39
Stskeeps	because of !$%^ stupid decisions to close the harmattan ones	16:39
Stskeeps	for instance	16:39
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TheBootroo	fiferboy: it will not be, and i will never focus on QML	16:40
slaine	MTF was deprecated in Feb iirc for MeeGo	16:40
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Stupid decisions abound around both sets of Qt components :-(	16:40
Stskeeps	slaine: way earlier	16:40
fiferboy	TheBootroo: But if you are going to target other MeeGo UX platforms MTF won't necessarily be there	16:40
berndhs	I think you're better off having mechanisms to support n versions of QtQuick	16:40
berndhs	that way you don't ahve to care what value n takes next month	16:41
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TheBootroo	Harmattan UI was before all a concept of beautiful UI based on Qt and that would have been common between Symbian 4 and Maemo 6. Then went MeeGo and nokia developped MTF for it. then went Elop, and Nokia seemed to close MeeGo dev but in fact continued it closed doors	16:41
slaine	I think the approach I'd take would be to target Qt C++ with UX descriptor in QML and try to find common ground between both sets of components.	16:42
TheBootroo	fiferboy: then i will use plain Qt	16:42
TheBootroo	fiferboy: i don't want QML in my apps	16:42
slaine	Either design around the diffs or work with meego to provide abstrations	16:42
fiferboy	TheBootroo: Plain Qt isn't properly themed in a lot of cases on MeeGo	16:42
TheBootroo	fiferboy: that will be enhanced, but QML is not finished neither stable	16:42
pvuorela	not just themed, plain qwidgets qt isn't really proper for mobile devices that support different orientation or finger usable ui.	16:42
TheBootroo	MTF was nice, because they were QGraphicsView + SVG + CSS and overall C++, QML is lame i dont want Javascript apps, i want C++ Apps	16:44
gabrbedd	fiferboy: QML has themes, now?	16:44
TheBootroo	gabrbedd: not really	16:44
gabrbedd	TheBootroo: I know.	16:44
Jaffa	slaine: Indeed, I think my first non graphical (i.e. standard UI app) is going to have some adaptation layer	16:44
fiferboy	gabrbedd: Point taken, you can theme your own qwidget application	16:45
TheBootroo	gabrbedd: only redefinitions of widget set, because QML is basically sotry of rectangles	16:45
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Jaffa	slaine: Cos I want to target both. I imagine a few devs'll do this and we'll merge them and try and build on top of each other's work.	16:45
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fiferboy	But Qt Components is supposed to provide a unified look and feel	16:45
Jaffa	slaine: Of course, to be MeeGo Compliant we can't depend on this library/adapting QML library, we'll have to copy & paste or not be compliant	16:45
Jaffa	fiferboy: It is. On Symbian & Harmattan.	16:45
slaine	Nod, I totally +1 your LWN post	16:45
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fiferboy	Jaffa: And MeeGo UX Components on MeeGo targets	16:46
Jaffa	fiferboy: It might also work on MeeGo "proper". In which case, MeeGo UX Components may fade anyway	16:46
Jaffa	fiferboy: Correct.	16:46
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fiferboy	Does Qt Components follow the desktop Qt look and feel on a desktop target?	16:47
slaine	Are Vendors expected to provide their own extensions to Qt/MeeGo Components ?	16:47
slaine	I'm thinking HTC Sense UI here	16:47
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slaine	IF HTC decided to make a MeeGo device with QML apps, they'd want set of Sense UI extensions I'm sure	16:48
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TheBootroo	fiferboy: i don't see how they could, they are not Qwidget, they are only styled rectangles	16:48
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berndhs	you can make anything you want out of styled rectangles :)	16:48
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fiferboy	TheBootroo: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/03/10/qml-components-for-desktop/	16:49
Jaffa	fiferboy: There is a project on labs.qt.nokia.com --^	16:49
fiferboy	Looks like there is potential there	16:49
Jaffa	slaine: They can supply additional libraries of components, I guess.	16:49
Jaffa	slaine: But apps depending on it won't be compliant	16:49
Jaffa	Which seems reasonable	16:49
slaine	true	16:49
Jaffa	There're still a lot of questions about compliance & QML though, I think	16:50
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TheBootroo	which is lame	16:50
lcuk	berndhs, try drawing sketches with rectangles only	16:51
TheBootroo	i think we could have a MeeGoTouch QStyle for plain Qt Apps no ? and then for each meego theme, a simmple CSS to change colors and fonts	16:51
lcuk	and note that the one true polygon is the triangle	16:51
TheBootroo	berndhs: yes but since the functional is merged with appearance in QML, you need a new version of each component for each theme	16:51
lcuk	just ask javispedro	16:51
lcuk	n-tier!	16:52
Jaffa	Of course, Apple get away with succesful devices without theming. And I've never seen user-themed Android devices (maybe I've not looked)	16:52
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berndhs	TheBootroo: yes basically you need to do different "import" for each target	16:52
lcuk	Jaffa, having a good framework and enough customisation to get around it, you do not need widget theming as such	16:52
berndhs	TheBootroo: at least, potentially different qml code	16:52
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lcuk	but where you want to totally customise not only look but feel too	16:52
lcuk	you need variation components	16:53
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TheBootroo_	my connection bugged	16:55
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TheBootroo_	i was saying	16:56
monoid	are specs of n9 public an is it the the last meego device?	16:56
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berndhs	monoid: its not the last meego device, that's pretty certain	16:56
Jaffa	monoid: The specs are public; it is not the last MeeGo device, it may be Nokia's last MeeGo device	16:57
TheBootroo_	we could have basically a qstyle for meego and use css to just change colors and fonts, and then have a fully themable component kit for plain c++/Qt4	16:57
monoid	i have not found the specs	16:57
monoid	where are they?	16:57
Jaffa	monoid: http://swipe.nokia.com/	16:57
monoid	thank you very mutch	16:57
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monoid	that is not specs	16:58
Jaffa	monoid: They're in there somewhere	16:58
TheBootroo_	monoid: look at specifiaction section on the site	16:59
Jaffa	monoid: https://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N9/ more specifically then	16:59
monoid	i foun http://www.phonearena.com/phones/Nokia-N9_id5187	17:00
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monoid	they are sure quiet about the SoC and hardware	17:01
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Jaffa	monoid: Really? It's an OMAP3630	17:01
Jucato	the link Jaffa gave has the details	17:01
TheBootroo_	monoid: read carefully	17:01
Jucato	(the last link)	17:01
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monoid	http://www.gadgetnews.in/nokia-n9-meego-smartphone/ also	17:02
monoid	jaffa's link does not contain "OMAP"	17:02
Jucato	it does	17:03
Jucato	TI OMAP Model 3630	17:03
monoid	http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N9/	17:03
monoid	does not contain "omap"	17:04
Jucato	...	17:04
Jucato	you sure you've expanded them all before you did your search?	17:04
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monoid	expanded what?	17:05
MiskaX	monoid: General -section says "TI OMAP Model 3630"	17:05
Jucato	Expand All \| Collapse All	17:05
Jucato	expand the sections	17:05
TheBootroo_	monoid: you noob ?	17:05
monoid	why do they hide it?	17:05
monoid	now i see it	17:05
monoid	what is 'rom memory'?	17:06
TheBootroo_	64GB	17:06
monoid	512MB partition for the OS?	17:06
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monoid	"ROM Memory: 512 MB"	17:06
Jaffa	monoid: Yeah, I think it means root partition	17:06
TheBootroo_	monoid: just expand the memory tab	17:06
TheBootroo_	monoid: or go read one of the thousand articles that reproduce the specs and some photos	17:07
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monoid	if i hadn't expanded the memory tab, i would not have seen "ROM Memory: 512 MB"	17:07
t8	hey guys, what's in store for nokia?	17:07
t8	does it exist in a few years?	17:07
monoid	but thank you for your attempt at assistance TheBootroo_	17:07
SpeedEvil	t8: It will exist.	17:09
SpeedEvil	t8: If its stock price will have collapsed, and it will be a brand of a chinese maker - who knows.	17:09
monoid	nice to see ogg vorbis support!	17:09
monoid	1450mAh yaay!	17:10
DocScrutinizer	eh? 1340->1450 = yaay ??	17:10
DocScrutinizer	<10%	17:11
monoid	better than 1250	17:11
ShadowJK	1250?	17:11
berndhs	well if all you needed was 1341 mAh, its a big step :p	17:11
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DocScrutinizer	hehe	17:11
monoid	N900 = 1250mAh BL-5J	17:11
lcuk	Hi,	17:12
lcuk	Just a quick note, we are busy at work still.. You can grab the testing image (final candidate) from here now:	17:12
lcuk	http://repository.maemo.org/meego/n900-de/daily/1.2.0.90.5.20110621.5.DE.2011-06-22.1/images/mg-handset-armv7nhl-n900-ce-testing/	17:12
lcuk	Tomorrow morning we will have the final image, and I will let you know. Sorry for the slight delay!	17:12
lcuk	Jukka	17:12
* ShadowJK needs accurate near-realtime battery state tracking, after that managing power use becomes possible		17:12
DocScrutinizer	that last mA might suffice for the house number at end of 911 call	17:12
ShadowJK	monoid, 1320	17:12
DocScrutinizer	oh, 20, not 40, ok	17:12
monoid	hmm you are right	17:13
ShadowJK	not that it's 1320 as used in N900, but best compare published values with published values	17:13
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TheBootroo_	lcuk: its summer release RC ?	17:15
DocScrutinizer	I'm more amazed about what N9 makes out of those 1450mAh	17:15
ali1234	fun fact: the 5800 uses the same BL-5J battery and it lasts for about a month	17:15
DocScrutinizer	supposed standby on WCDMA is incredible	17:15
DocScrutinizer	wondering if they got a new modem or still are using BB5	17:16
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, the ui looks reactive rather than fancypants wasteful effects	17:16
TheBootroo_	ali1234: 5800XM is 384Mhz and always disconnect network if not in the browser	17:16
lcuk	ie, nice and polished and simple	17:16
lcuk	TheBootroo_, yes	17:17
ShadowJK	N900 runs about 10 days in same conditions iirc	17:17
ali1234	yeah, iow, it works properly	17:17
ali1234	you can't expect users to reconfigure the whole phone just to make the battery life acceptable	17:17
ShadowJK	oh actually, that was with internet connected	17:18
lcuk	so make it great out of the box	17:18
ali1234	yes	17:18
lcuk	and give a ux that requires little modification	17:18
lcuk	and win/win	17:18
monoid	can this run meego? http://www.pocketdroid.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Motorola-Milestone-3.jpg	17:19
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: N900 been great ootb, it's just way too easy to get it messed up by silly animated wallpapers widgets younameit	17:19
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DocScrutinizer	SKYPE!!	17:20
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, widgets were often not animated, it was and remains things like internet services etc	17:20
DocScrutinizer	yeah, skype	17:20
DocScrutinizer	and other IM sh*t	17:20
lcuk	and media metadata collection ;)	17:20
TheBootroo_	lcuk: i'm gonna try to dl it tonight but each time i tried, it has disconnected me à 150 MB or worse, dl all with very changeant rate (every second move between 5Kbps and 500Kbps) and at end continues to dl i don't know what even with 450/450MB done and goes endless like this (i finally stopped it à 576/450MB WTF)	17:20
destinal-home	monoid: it would be cool to see palm pre2 / hp pre3 running meego :)	17:21
TheBootroo_	monoid: all can run meego but nothing does because of blocked bootladers and missing drivers	17:21
destinal-home	the hp/palm devices have no bootloader locks	17:21
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: tracker supposed to run once	17:21
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destinal-home	but drivers, that's a potential issue, yeah	17:21
lcuk	TheBootroo_, the maemo servers have been solid, stable and reliable for pretty much the duration I have been around	17:21
lcuk	I guess it is your end that is not so stable	17:21
monoid	hp/palm is not landscape is it?	17:22
destinal-home	no, portrait slider	17:22
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, tracker runs for each new piece of media	17:22
DocScrutinizer	yep	17:22
lcuk	so take a picture with camera etc	17:22
lcuk	or movie	17:22
TheBootroo_	some1 tried documents in N9 ? read only or editiing too ?	17:22
lcuk	not an issue as the data is required	17:22
DocScrutinizer	anyway, I think a sanity-checker daemon should come in handy	17:22
lcuk	marginally frustrating	17:23
t8	N9 is going to rule	17:23
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, "place device on forehead"	17:23
lcuk	new capacitive screen can do brainscanning?	17:23
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DocScrutinizer	install $nasty-app -> 10min later sanity-checker hollers about something ramped up power demand of device to an insane state	17:23
destinal-home	t8: I just wish there was a version with a hard keyboard	17:23
TheBootroo_	lcuk: i know my connection is poor : at work proxy blocks too large files, at home (study residence) french ley 'HADOPI' has stopped connection, and in public rates are not stable	17:24
berndhs	lcuk: NFC will work with the chip in your brain	17:24
lcuk	hmm reasonable berndhs	17:24
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ShadowJK	is nfc more or less buggy than bluetooth	17:25
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: something like a daemonized join of htop and powertop	17:25
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: and cpu load monitor	17:25
DocScrutinizer	well, I guess that's already included in htop :-P	17:26
lcuk	at some point running all those monitoring things takes up more battery power than the apps they are watching for	17:26
DocScrutinizer	lol	17:26
lcuk	so you want it in a healthcheck mode	17:26
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lcuk	I discussed these sorts of things with greg	17:27
Termana	DocScrutinizer, I need a sanity-checker as well. Too bad mine would be stuck on "Insane"	17:27
ShadowJK	that's true of batterygraph and battery-eye in a way :)	17:27
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, Maemo has HealthCheck app	17:27
lcuk	which should generate a report based on those things	17:27
DocScrutinizer	you could enable it for check on each installation of a pkg	17:27
lcuk	but not be running all of them all the time	17:27
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, discuss such things in the -qa channel	17:27
ShadowJK	You know, my own bq27200 script at 5s poll interval approximately halves standby life :)	17:27
lcuk	we are aiming to have a performance build of the community stuff	17:27
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: yay	17:28
lcuk	which when combined iwth the qa-tools stuff will actually allow reproducable reports to be made potentially per package as you said	17:28
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: tough your script surely could use some optimization regarding that	17:28
ShadowJK	It's all about the wakeups :)	17:28
DocScrutinizer	yeah, but also about minimizing CPU load	17:29
DocScrutinizer	and I2C access	17:29
ShadowJK	didn't make much of a difference to power use by cutting cpu use to a tenth of current	17:29
DocScrutinizer	o.O	17:29
ShadowJK	biggest impact is the reduction of time spent in "suspend to ram" :)	17:30
DocScrutinizer	try reading bq27200 in batch mode, rather than reg by reg	17:30
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ShadowJK	I had it reading one single register, percentage capacity one :P	17:31
DocScrutinizer	I2C for sure isn't for free	17:31
ShadowJK	iirc that's 8 bit register :)	17:31
DocScrutinizer	ok, fair enough	17:31
DocScrutinizer	I usually see current ramp up from ~5mA for bq27200.sh 60 to ~25mA for interval 5	17:33
TheBootroo_	possibility of a MTF open fork ?	17:33
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mikhas	TheBootroo_, it is open?	17:35
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ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, also at interval 60, the 5 is for a period before bq27200.sh woke up to take reading. Then it sleeps when the hw is offering a reading with the power use of bq27200 included	17:36
mikhas	TheBootroo_, meego.gitorious.org/meegotouch	17:36
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ShadowJK	so you dont actually see it	17:36
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TheBootroo_	mikhas: yes i thought too but one said me it has been deprecated because nokia closed it ?	17:37
TheBootroo_	i'm lost	17:38
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berndhs	there appear to be factions within Nokia, some may not have closed it :)	17:38
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mikhas	TheBootroo_, it is not recommended for application developers, in MeeGo.	17:40
mikhas	MTF was never closed (yes, there are closed bits on top)	17:40
TheBootroo_	mikhas: but why if it not closed ?	17:40
Jaffa	TheBootroo_: Because it is viewed as not the best way to develop MeeGo apps	17:41
mikhas	because C++ is too hard for fart app developers	17:41
berndhs	but you can start a fork of MTF and the dependent components	17:41
TheBootroo_	fuck to them	17:41
TheBootroo_	i am true developer and NEED a true C++ api	17:41
mikhas	Jaffa said the same more polite, of course.	17:41
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TheBootroo_	mikhas: why more polite ? "fart" is shocking i found... /D	17:42
mikhas	Actually, QGraphicsView and its implications when you try to build a toolkit on top of that are really not nice.	17:42
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mikhas	There's lot of WTF's in MTF, but well, it's also rather stable and fast now ...	17:43
TheBootroo_	and beautiful, easy skinnable and sweet set of widgets	17:43
mikhas	TheBootroo_, we need to cater to web developers if we ever want to create a MeeGo Ecosystem.	17:43
mikhas	(that's the manager's version ;-)	17:44
lcuk	mikhas, c++ is not the issue	17:44
lcuk	it is the IDE -> device path that is long	17:44
thiago	MTF is not part of the official API	17:44
lcuk	you can open qt creator and make a fart app	17:44
thiago	it's there, you can use it now	17:44
berndhs	to get a decent ecosystem you need predictability, and devices	17:44
mikhas	lcuk, I use MTF on my desktop	17:44
lcuk	in 5 minutes	17:44
mikhas	in 3 minutes	17:44
lcuk	but getting it then onto various target devices is troublesome	17:44
thiago	don't blame us if your app stops working when we remove it or change incompatibly	17:44
lcuk	mikhas, if we are being picky, I can open visual basic on my windows machine and have a maemo app in seconds ;)	17:45
mikhas	I compile C++ and can make install directly onto the device, too.	17:45
TheBootroo_	thiago: QML is not stabilized neither	17:45
* alterego wonders what might be lacking from Harmattan that will get stick from users.		17:45
thiago	TheBootroo_: QML as a language and basics is stable enough	17:45
thiago	the components are missing and that's not established	17:45
alterego	I guess at least it has MMS	17:45
lcuk	mikhas, take that same app and get it onto all your friends devices too	17:45
thiago	but it's enough for a fart app and many things way more complex	17:46
TheBootroo_	alterego: yes it has them	17:46
fiferboy	alterego: Desktop widgets	17:46
mikhas	lcuk, yes, I'll use HTML5 for that	17:46
alterego	Well, I know it has it, I'm just wondering about stuff it doesn't have that'll annoy people :)	17:46
alterego	fiferboy: wip ;)	17:46
mikhas	then I get it onto my friend's IPhone, too	17:46
lcuk	mikhas, toolkit not important, delivery mechanism is!	17:46
fiferboy	alterego: Oh?	17:46
alterego	I want pannable desktop widgets on the lock screen :)	17:47
fiferboy	Ah, lock screen. Hadn't considered that	17:47
fiferboy	Apparently you can also have simple widgets in the events view	17:47
alterego	I still need to download the sdk and check out possibilities, there are a few options :)	17:47
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alterego	What about contact groups and per contact/group ring tones?	17:48
fiferboy	alterego: I was contemplating a plugin to give a fourth view (in addition to event, app, running) for a simple widget view	17:48
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alterego	Multiple profile support rather than the two we have.	17:48
fiferboy	And I have heard anything about the device profiles	17:48
alterego	fiferboy: I was also thinking the same.	17:48
fiferboy	I haven't dug far enough into the SDK to see if it is possible	17:49
alterego	Maybe both would be good :)	17:49
fiferboy	Contact shortcuts would seem to be a big thing that is missing	17:49
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alterego	Yeah,	17:49
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alterego	But you do have favourite contacts right at the top of the contacts view.	17:50
fiferboy	I guess a well written contact application would take care of that mostly, though	17:50
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mikhas	lcuk, so you agree with me that we need to use HTML5?	17:52
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mikhas	best delivery mechanism	17:52
lcuk	why only html5?	17:52
lcuk	and no - I don't mind which is used	17:53
lcuk	as long as idea->prototype->product cycle works	17:53
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lcuk	that is what counts	17:53
lcuk	for fiferboy to get his app into the hands of all the birdwatchers of the world	17:53
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lcuk	and for khertan to energise python devlopers	17:54
lcuk	and jaffa to give everyone attitude	17:54
lcuk	etc	17:54
alterego	Is any of the Harmattan UI in qml?	17:54
alterego	I suppose I'll know in a few minutes anyway ^_^	17:54
* alterego thinks not.		17:55
fiferboy	alterego: I have heard that a few of the applications are QML	17:55
fiferboy	But the majority is MTF	17:55
fiferboy	lcuk: MeeGo bird watchers will have their day!	17:55
lcuk	good stuff fiferboy	17:55
lcuk	fiferboy, with the amazing cameras on Nokia devices building up a great media catalogue is good	17:56
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fiferboy	Hmm, maybe a good tagline: "MeeGo Bird Watching"	17:56
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lardman	andre__: will it be possible to add bugs against 3rd party apps (e.g. like the Extras components in the Maemo bugtracker)?	17:56
lcuk	fiferboy, having a meego slate to manage a set of remote cameras	17:56
fiferboy	lcuk: Unless the camera is the 35mm equivalent of 300mm you are going to need to be a _very_ good bird photographer :)	17:57
andre__	lardman, with regard to MeeGo I assume?	17:57
fiferboy	lcuk: Ah, now that is a good idea	17:57
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andre__	lardman, join the fun in https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12589 :)	17:57
MeeGoBot	Bug 12589 nor, Undecided, ---, dawn.m.foster, NEW, Allow addition of 3rd party products into bugs.meego.com	17:57
lardman	andre__: yes Meego and more specifically Harmattan	17:57
lcuk	fiferboy, collection of machines	17:57
lcuk	working together :)	17:57
fiferboy	lcuk: Did you just create SkyNet?	17:57
andre__	lardman: Harmattan? can you elaborate?	17:58
lcuk	did you not see my recent tweets?	17:58
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lcuk	I was musing about http://my.data last night	17:58
lcuk	http://twitter.com/lcuk	17:58
lardman	andre__: just saw your post to the -dev lists about where Harmattan bugs should be filed	17:58
lcuk	fiferboy, I have multiple devices	17:58
fiferboy	lcuk: Ah, your cloud syncing tweets?	17:58
lcuk	I want my data to be synced across all of them	17:58
andre__	lardman, ah. Not in any MeeGo or Maemo Bugzilla. ;-)	17:58
lcuk	when I draw a sketch on one	17:58
lcuk	it is available on all	17:58
lcuk	yes	17:59
lcuk	:)	17:59
fiferboy	lcuk: My application syncs across multipe devices :P	17:59
lcuk	oooh	17:59
lardman	andre__: will the nokia tracker allow 3rd party apps?	17:59
lardman	bugtracker that is	17:59
lcuk	fiferboy, problem with http://my.data is that ICANN haven't got it in place yet	17:59
lcuk	so I asked	17:59
andre__	lardman, I don't know anything about nokia's bugtracker. and I guess "no".	17:59
fiferboy	At least, devices where the Qt mysql plugin is available :(	17:59
andre__	lardman, it's very developer oriented, not for endusers reporting something	17:59
lcuk	fiferboy, I was told to get similar domain would cost debian project 6 figures	18:00
TheBootroo_	fiferboy: alterego: only some 3rd party apps are un QML (accuweater, vimeo..), nokia apps and the full OS is MTF	18:00
lcuk	so .data would be similar	18:00
lardman	andre__: ok fair enough, I guess the meego.com bugtracker would be the place then assuming it's eventually allowed	18:00
andre__	lardman, if you see the discussion in the bug report I linked it looks like it's rather going to be a separate installation	18:00
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fiferboy	TheBootroo_: Ah, I wasn't sure if it was third-party that were refered to where I read it	18:00
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lardman	in the interim is it possible to add a new version to maemo.org's bugtracker?	18:00
ali1234	lcuk: gTLDs? yeah, there isa flat fee to apply, it's $184,000, and then it's $26,000/ year to renew if your application is successful. at least that's what i read.	18:00
lcuk	yeah ali1234	18:01
lardman	to catch bugs seen in the dev devices?	18:01
lcuk	but I just want my.data ;)	18:01
lardman	in 3rd party apps	18:01
lcuk	the specifics are just frosting	18:01
* lcuk waves at lardman		18:01
lardman	hi lcuk	18:01
* TheBootroo_ finds MeeGo Touch Framework in Harmattan actually ROXX		18:02
* lardman goes to pack an IR camera		18:02
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fiferboy	Is there a package list for Marmattan available?	18:02
TheBootroo_	look there for MTF screenshots : http://www.developer.nokia.com/swipe/ux/pages/building_blocks.html	18:02
fiferboy	Somewhere easy to access?	18:02
TheBootroo_	fiferboy: yes	18:03
lcuk	i saw a list fiferboy	18:03
pabs3	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/unstable/beta/Fremantle_Update7_vs_Harmattan_Beta_content_comparison.html	18:03
TheBootroo_	fiferboy: in developer.nokia.com specs	18:03
fiferboy	pabs3: Thanks!	18:03
pabs3	or http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/	18:03
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andre__	lardman, you only refer to 3rd party stuff? hmm. good question.	18:04
fiferboy	Gah, no libqt4-sql-mysql :(	18:04
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andre__	lardman: if apps existed for maemo already and now run on meego and have their canonical bugtracker home in bugs.maemo.org this might make sense	18:04
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alterego	I'm getting a full time contract with them to do QML/Qt work for MeeGo (and possibly other stuff she couldn't tell me over the phone)	18:08
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Stskeeps	alterego: that calls for beer!	18:11
alterego	Shit	18:12
alterego	That wasn't bemeant for public :P	18:12
Stskeeps	beer still ;)	18:12
* Stskeeps plays with agile browser		18:12
alterego	:)	18:12
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Termana	alterego, We'll pretend we didn't see it.	18:13
Termana	RIGHT CHANNEL?	18:13
alterego	I'm downloading Harmattan SDK, and about to do some chores ;)	18:13
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Jaffa	Termana: Right.	18:15
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alterego	Oh no! "It is an X11 server that	18:17
alterego	provides a device screen for the Maemo application windows"	18:17
alterego	(in harmattan release notes ;)	18:17
Stskeeps	heh	18:17
Stskeeps	xephyr ;p	18:18
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TSCHAKeee	when will they start shipping out the N950s?! :D	18:19
TSCHAKeee	how will we know if we got one? ;)	18:19
TSCHAKeee	ok ok, i'll stop trolling now	18:19
TSCHAKeee	;)	18:19
TSCHAKeee	hey guys	18:19
alterego	I hope we find out by early next week :)	18:20
TSCHAKeee	I really want to bitch slap the people who are saying "Harmattan is an outdated abandoned OS"	18:21
Stskeeps	TSCHAKeee: dpkg -l	18:21
alterego	Yeah, seems a bit silly.	18:21
ali1234	yeah they should at least wait and try it before saying that :)	18:21
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berndhs	yeah just that Nokia says they'll abandon it doesn't mean they will :)	18:22
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ali1234	although i'm pretty sure it is a fact that MTF is outdated and abandoned	18:22
monoid	who has a n950?	18:22
TSCHAKeee	thiago and a few of the senior guys at Qt	18:23
TSCHAKeee	some other nokia engineers who walk around in here	18:23
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* alterego points to your mom		18:23
monoid	i would like one.	18:24
alterego	Join the queue	18:25
alterego	:P	18:25
alterego	Everyone wants new shiny	18:25
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pebcak	will there be n950 for debian devs?	18:26
lcuk	alterego, not always	18:26
pebcak	:D	18:26
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alterego	pebno :P	18:26
alterego	What has debian got to do with MeeGo?	18:26
alterego	And I don't think nokia have that many to give away ..	18:26
monoid	somebody should make a wallet with bluetooth keyboard, then i might buy N9	18:27
juliank	alterego: While MeeGo has nothing to do with Debian, Harmattan is Debian-based.	18:27
pebcak	alterego so the n9 doesn't use meego :D	18:27
* alterego has a nice bluetooth keyboard ..		18:27
pebcak	juliank indeed	18:27
alterego	pebcak: The N9 is MeeGo	18:27
pebcak	alterego no it#s debian based	18:27
alterego	It's MeeGo damnbit!	18:27
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pebcak	meego meego is fedora based	18:28
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ali1234	no	18:28
ali1234	meego isn't anything based damnit	18:28
X-Fade	juliank: It uses debs, it is not debian based.	18:28
Termana	meego meego	18:28
Termana	harmattan meego	18:28
pebcak	that would explain why fedora packages work so well	18:28
ali1234	i thought we established this ages ago?	18:28
pabs3	ali1234: meego is linux based	18:28
Termana	Termana's ice cream truck meego	18:28
alterego	MeeGo is a set of APIs and software stack specifications, and qt testing packages.	18:28
ali1234	linux is not a distro	18:28
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pabs3	ali1234: I didn't claim it was. meego is linux based, just like Debian/Fedora are linux based	18:29
pebcak	X-Fade what else does it use of debian?	18:29
alterego	s/qt/qa/	18:29
ali1234	pabs3: except that debian can run on *bsd too	18:29
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pebcak	kfreebsd	18:29
pabs3	true	18:29
pebcak	woo!	18:29
pebcak	:D	18:29
X-Fade	We could also discuss this and wast a lot of time, while at the same time competitors take over the market. We really need to pick our battles wiser.	18:29
alterego	pebcak: you tell us? Tall GNU/Linux installs use pretty much the same software ..	18:30
alterego	s/Tall/All	18:30
ali1234	true enough	18:30
monoid	i wonder if there is a name as funny as swipe	18:30
TSCHAKeee	SWIPER, NO SWIPIN!	18:30
TSCHAKeee	SWIPER NO SWIPIN!	18:30
TSCHAKeee	SWIPER, NO SWIPIN!	18:30
TSCHAKeee	OHHHH MAAAANNN!!!!	18:31
TSCHAKeee	:P	18:31
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lcuk	haha	18:31
pebcak	alterego there are some signifigant differences how some things are handled and you know that....	18:31
juliank	X-Fade: It uses dpkg, apt, debian source packages, the debian policy to a certain extent, so it's clearly Debian-based.	18:31
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, I even heard you click your fingers	18:31
pebcak	^^	18:31
Termana	TSCHAKeee, lol	18:31
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: rofl	18:31
alterego	pebcak: like what?	18:31
TSCHAKeee	god damn i'm getting old.	18:31
X-Fade	juliank: Packaging doesn't make something based on Debian.	18:31
TSCHAKeee	;)	18:31
pebcak	init, packaging blablablabla	18:31
alterego	pebcak: it uses upstart, that isn't debian.	18:32
X-Fade	juliank: Anyway, keep trolling and let Android win :)	18:32
pebcak	android wins anyway	18:32
pebcak	so you could jsut give up	18:32
pebcak	:p	18:32
lardman	andre__: that was my thought	18:32
pabs3	alterego: upstart is available in Debian	18:32
X-Fade	At least you can make an effort.	18:32
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lardman	andre__: I'd assume that a fair few Fremantle apps will be ported across	18:32
lardman	certainly that's my intention anyway	18:32
alterego	pabs3: so what? apt is available on fedora, you've just lost me ,..	18:32
juliank	X-Fade: It's been a Debian derivative and it still is one.	18:33
pebcak	how many debian armel packages are used in harmattan?	18:33
* alterego sighs		18:33
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alterego	Who cares what it derives from anyway?	18:33
alterego	It's the API compatibility that is important.	18:33
alterego	It is the closets thing that exists, that is actually a commerical, _real_ product with a MeeGo brand name.	18:34
juliank	alterego: APT is not available on Fedora. There maybe is apt-rpm, which is based on the heavily outdated 0.5 releases and unmaintained and probably a large security hole	18:34
alterego	So stop bitching about the fact it uses debian packaging when it doesn't matter.	18:34
pebcak	juliank untrue, there is apt4rpm	18:34
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* lardman heads home, catch you all tomorrow		18:34
juliank	pebcak: apt4rpm is a tool to create repositories for apt-rpm	18:34
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* Jaffa points at http://lwn.net/Articles/448639/ cos he's not going to repeat his arguments again ;-)		18:34
* alterego sighs		18:34
pebcak	juliank I know it from... connective and suse when suse was still suse	18:34
pebcak	maybe it was different then	18:35
pebcak	:D	18:35
pebcak	°connectiva	18:35
alterego	I'm gonna do the washing up now ...	18:35
pebcak	:D	18:35
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pebcak	still, I don't see why it wouldn't be useful to give some devdevices to debian	18:35
pebcak	shrug	18:35
juliank	pebcak: Create an app to run Debian inside Meego and you may get one	18:36
pabs3	pebcak: I applied, would definitely be surprised if I got one though	18:36
pebcak	juliank I don't get that logic, sorry	18:36
pabs3	pebcak: they were pretty clear about who the devices were for	18:36
juliank	pebcak: The devices are for those willing to develop apps, so if you write an app for running Debian inside MeeGo, you fulfill the requirements	18:37
ali1234	i think they want people who will write apps that more than about 10 people actually would want to use	18:38
ali1234	which rules me out	18:38
pebcak	I'm only interested in an epub reader	18:38
pebcak	for tablet ux	18:38
pebcak	:D	18:38
ali1234	and also 99% of the maemo developer base too	18:38
monoid	qt apps	18:38
ali1234	toolkit is irrelevant really	18:39
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ali1234	although no doubt they prefer you use Qt	18:39
monoid	no it is not	18:39
Jaffa	ali1234: Download stats on http://maemo.org/downloads/ undermine your trolling	18:39
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ali1234	85 million downloads?	18:40
ali1234	does that include every time ham touches the repository list?	18:40
juliank	If I get one, I write a todo list application and some other stuff	18:41
pebcak	hehe	18:41
ali1234	Jaffa: i would like to see the top five or ten most downloaded apps, if that is available somewhere	18:41
ali1234	"popular" doesn't seem to be that	18:41
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pebcak	if I don't get one I write my ebookreader anyway, because I have a tablet running meego and it#s the only application I really miss	18:42
pebcak	;P	18:42
ali1234	also does that count extras-testing and extras-devel?	18:42
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ivan__	hi, any OBS experts around? I am setting up a private OBS instance for my company and need a little help with bootstrapping.	18:42
Stskeeps	ivan__: define bootstrapping :)	18:43
lcuk	take the boots and a lace end in one hand	18:43
pebcak	hehe	18:43
ivan__	"bootstrapping" is what documentation calls the bit when you have a working OBS, but can't build anything MeeGo because frash install is openSuse-centric.	18:43
X-Fade	ivan__: What are you using? The appliance or are you installing it?	18:43
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ivan__	I have a working installation, but want to be able to build MeeGo packages. This doc shows the process for "bootstrapping" (http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_private_instance_boot_strapping) but I've had no luck so far	18:45
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ali1234	Jaffa: to put your statistics in context, my personal maemo 5 repo which is not advertised anywhere or used by anyone but me has had over 10000 hits	18:46
X-Fade	ali1234: But these are completed downloads.	18:47
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ivan__	Essnetially, I want to run obs_mirror_project to copy the projects from build.pub.meego.com ( i have the login there). However, according to docs, this script has to be modified for MeeGo. I've had a quick look and can't find the modified version. I can try modding myself but there were a few unclear bits	18:47
ali1234	these are completed downloads too	18:47
Jaffa	ali1234: You've verified the IPs, I assume?	18:47
lcuk	ali1234, what is the address of your repo?	18:47
ali1234	http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/maemo/fremantle/	18:48
lcuk	and if not advertissed then somebody must have been using it	18:48
X-Fade	ivan__: What do you want to do? Import a MeeGo release?	18:48
ali1234	99.999% of the hits are on Packages.gz	18:48
ivan__	X-Fade: yes	18:48
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ali1234	because ham polls it about 10 times for every single operation	18:48
X-Fade	ali1234: That is just the daily update. That is not a download.	18:48
lcuk	ali1234, google says you have all sorts of random hits	18:48
ali1234	well, probably	18:48
X-Fade	ivan__: A simpeler way is to just download a repository and import it.	18:49
ali1234	my website is set up in a way that makes it easy to explore and index	18:49
ivan__	X-Fade: Sounds great, are ther any instructions how to do this right?	18:49
ali1234	X-Fade: so every single one of those 85M is a completed download of a .deb file?	18:49
lcuk	i would imagine it would be more difficult to create a website which wasnt	18:49
X-Fade	ali1234: yes	18:49
ali1234	ok, that's all i wanted to know, thanks :)	18:49
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lcuk	X-Fade, still using Nokia 770 as server?	18:50
X-Fade	lcuk: We upgraded to some N800s we had collecting dust.	18:51
lcuk	:D	18:51
lcuk	no wonder download speed increased!	18:51
arfoll	anyone know how to monitor GMA500/600 GPU usage?	18:51
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lcuk	http://www.onedotzero.com/submissions/	18:52
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ivan__	X-Fade: Is the process of downloading a repo and importing documented anywhere?	18:53
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monoid	nice video with the swipe stuff. how is jitteryness of the animations	18:54
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Stskeeps	ivan__: you can draw inspiration from http://wiki.meego.com/User:Stskeeps/10_easy_steps_to_a_local_OBS#Step_6:_Importing_a_MeeGo_release	18:55
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lcuk	monoid, from videos it looks nice	18:55
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lcuk	the effects are in sync with finger motions and it seems certainly to be nice	18:55
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* lcuk likes the simplicity		18:55
monoid	lcuk: i have only seen the rendered videos ahh i see some	18:55
X-Fade	ivan__: What ^^ said.	18:56
monoid	i like the colors	18:56
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monoid	hmm no the animations are jittery	18:56
monoid	everybody is just copying liqbase	18:57
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monoid	lol	18:57
lcuk	lol we know that	18:57
Stskeeps	ivan__: basically: you rsync a release down, make a obs project, dump in the rpms, set a prjconf and make the obs aware of the rpms	18:57
RST38h	remoo	18:57
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monoid	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkpoNlsY_40 Nokia N9 MeeGo Smartphone - detailed hands on and walkthrough	18:58
ivan__	Stskeeps: Thanks!	18:58
monoid	i love finish accents	18:59
lcuk	I prefer Finnish ones	19:01
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loft306	ha	19:02
monoid	good job to team nokia / qt / meego!	19:02
fiferboy	lcuk: You mean the accent of my son Finn?	19:02
fiferboy	He has a pretty cool accent	19:03
lcuk	lol fiferboy you named your son Finn?	19:03
lcuk	Tracy wants to call ours Finnlay too	19:03
fiferboy	lcuk: He is Finnian	19:04
lcuk	no fiferboy, he is awesome.	19:04
* juliank demands that everyone is called the same as himself		19:04
fiferboy	His favourite book right now is "The Knight's Handbook" which is teaching him how to be a knight	19:05
lcuk	:D	19:05
lcuk	fiferboy, Jake has started to be a wizard	19:05
lcuk	he collects a magic wand everytime we visit the country park	19:05
fiferboy	lcuk: We are raising a RPG team	19:05
lcuk	haha	19:06
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monoid	nokia: make a E7 with 800x480 and omap3 - use same case, save money	19:09
pebcak	no symbian plz	19:10
lcuk	monoid, did you know, screen resolution in some video modes is changable	19:10
lcuk	640*360 is good enough for the os it is using	19:10
lcuk	I know, I used to run liqbase at pretty much that resolution by default on my n810 ;)	19:11
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thiago_home	854x480	19:14
thiago_home	not 800x480	19:14
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lcuk	thiago_home,	19:14
lcuk	my ideapad runs at 1024*600 internally	19:14
lcuk	but when I plug it into the vga out, it changes to 1920*1080	19:14
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lcuk	does the n9 video out do similar?	19:15
thiago_home	no clue	19:15
lcuk	can you run apps on big screen	19:15
* thiago_home doesn't have an n9		19:15
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lcuk	well you have some sort of prototype	19:15
lcuk	that is familiarly similar	19:15
thiago_home	I have an N950 proto and I have never plugged it to anything but the USB cable	19:15
lcuk	ahh ok	19:15
Jaffa	lcuk: Well, it's composite video so the "resolution" doesn't quite work like that	19:15
lcuk	Jaffa, ok	19:16
lcuk	my ideapad is actually frustrating because of it	19:16
lcuk	because it does not offer a mirror mode	19:16
Jaffa	lcuk: It's an analogue signal with a certain amount of bandwidth (but I forget the details)	19:16
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monoid	do these OLED displays deteriorate after a few years?	19:16
thiago_home	the problem isn't ideapad	19:16
lcuk	bug 19616	19:16
MeeGoBot	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19616 nor, Low, ---, jerry.yu, NEW, [ideapad] Video Out using VGA cable does not support mirroring	19:16
thiago_home	the meego netbook is configured to go into "large screen mode" if it detects an external display	19:17
lcuk	thiago_home, then my bug is valid!	19:17
thiago_home	yes	19:17
thiago_home	but only if this behaviour wasn't intended	19:17
thiago_home	I think it is	19:17
lcuk	it is annoying	19:17
lcuk	my other laptops cycle round	19:17
lcuk	onscreen/vga-out/mirror	19:17
lcuk	the ideapad merely does onscreen/vga-out	19:18
lcuk	and it means you cannot give a presentation and tap screen etc and inteact	19:18
lcuk	interact	19:18
lcuk	the n900	19:18
lcuk	i can do that (if hardware works)	19:18
lcuk	plug in the video cable, and what is on the large monitor is what is on the small screen	19:19
lcuk	I was going to give a presentation this weekend from my ideapad	19:19
lcuk	s/this/last/	19:19
ali1234	lcuk: funily enough i had the opposite problem on windows with the ideapad	19:19
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ali1234	probably because it's windows home super basic	19:20
lcuk	i don't know	19:20
ali1234	but it won't allow you to have indepentent outputs	19:20
lcuk	my ideapad is a meego machine	19:20
lcuk	it came with meego installed grin	19:20
monoid	the maps look very nice	19:20
ali1234	lol, no it didn't	19:20
lcuk	ali1234, yes it did	19:20
lcuk	from the moment I powered it up, I saw meego on the screen	19:21
ali1234	so who did you get to install meego for you?	19:21
lcuk	just because I had some usb key inside it when I switched it on	19:21
lcuk	I have never seen another OS on my ideapad	19:21
lcuk	hence, it is 100% a meego machine :P	19:21
ali1234	twisted logic is twisted	19:21
* lcuk inserts key into car to start it		19:21
ali1234	you watched the installer do it's stuff same as i did	19:21
* lcuk inserted key into ideapad to start it		19:22
lcuk	yeah but it wasn't a windows installer	19:22
lcuk	or debian	19:22
lcuk	or ubuntu	19:22
ali1234	actually i watched it twice because i hit a bug the first time	19:22
lcuk	it was meego.	19:22
ali1234	so you had to install the usb key?	19:23
monoid	nice ability to 'bookmark' a webpage to your apps	19:23
ali1234	or was that plugged in too when you got it?	19:23
lcuk	ali1234, not sure, I inserted the key when I unpacked it all	19:23
lcuk	there are photos :P	19:23
ali1234	so you installed the usb key into the usb port	19:23
lcuk	inserted the key to start it yeah	19:24
lcuk	no different than having to connect the umbilical cord from a new ipod	19:24
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ali1234	lol	19:25
markatto	man, harmattan is getting some pretty killer reviews	19:25
monoid	link markatto ?	19:25
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markatto	monoid: check out engadget	19:26
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monoid	watching the demos from singapore atm	19:26
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markatto	monoid: http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/editorial-dear-nokia-you-cannot-be-serious/	19:26
ivan__	Stskeeps: The OBS import instructions work for 1.1, but 1.2 repo layout seems quite different. Is there a 1.2 import script by any chance?	19:27
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monoid	thank you markatto ! i ask the same!	19:28
monoid	elop is a very bad man	19:28
lcuk	why? If people in America want and will buy Nokia WP devices, why should they be prevented from doing so?	19:28
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lcuk	and if folks want to have business class Symbian devices in Europe or wherever why shouldn't they?	19:29
lcuk	and if people want to drool over n9 etc and buy them, why shouldn't they?	19:29
monoid	to whom are you asking this?	19:30
markatto	lcuk: we don't want WP7 or Symbian devices ;)	19:30
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lcuk	YOU don't	19:30
lcuk	buy plenty of people do	19:30
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lcuk	my missus still wants a real keypad	19:30
markatto	iirc wp7 is selling pretty badly	19:30
lcuk	I am sure Microsoft can get it right	19:30
lcuk	just like early maemo devices sold badly	19:31
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markatto	symbian is pretty much non-existant in the USA, but I can't speak for the rest of the world	19:31
ali1234	actually few people go out of their way to buy a WP7	19:31
* ShadowJK 'd want a pocket-portable device capable of streaming radio (let's broadly say "any" format) over headphone, fmtx or nluetooth a2dp for a minimum of 8 hours on battery power		19:31
ali1234	not like they do with iphone and android	19:31
markatto	I don't know a single person with a WP7 phone	19:31
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ShadowJK	any os would be fine for that single-purpose device	19:31
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lcuk	markatto, considering windows phone is so badly slated	19:32
lcuk	many people are emulating the metro ui	19:32
wmarone_	markatto: I saw someone last week with one!	19:32
wmarone_	... and that's all	19:32
lcuk	i was playing with one the other night	19:32
lcuk	very pretty and slick	19:32
wmarone_	of course, I'm also the only person outside of meego meetups that I know with an N900 :)	19:32
ali1234	is metro what they call that awful UI where nothing fits on the screen properly?	19:32
lcuk	i also played with an n8 emulating metro	19:32
lcuk	ali1234, look at early liqbase	19:32
ali1234	early liqbase?	19:32
lcuk	EVERYBODY said "why don't your captions fit on the buttons"	19:33
lcuk	;)	19:33
wmarone_	lcuk: software patent!	19:33
wmarone_	go troll!	19:33
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wmarone_	;>	19:33
TSCHAKeee	i don't honestly see the appeal of WP7 at all	19:33
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lcuk	wmarone_, i found out yesterday europe does not have software patents	19:33
TSCHAKeee	i spent a lot of time with it	19:33
wmarone_	lcuk: you can still file in the US!	19:33
TSCHAKeee	it's got a slick outer shell, but there's nothing underneath.	19:33
monoid	how this TSCHAKeee - for job?	19:33
TSCHAKeee	nothing.	19:33
lcuk	yeah perhaps next time i go over	19:33
lcuk	but I would prefer to just make all my software work	19:33
TSCHAKeee	monoid: software development.	19:33
lcuk	than spend time faffing with patents	19:34
wmarone_	lcuk: I am being facetious, of course ;p	19:34
lcuk	unless there is a c->patent converter	19:34
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TSCHAKeee	what gets me though, and i am really trying to give Elop the benefit of the doubt here, why did he jettison the platform, when we wound up getting such an awesome device out of the N9?	19:35
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wmarone_	I think it can be summed up with two words: "because Microsoft"	19:35
ali1234	TSCHAKeee: because he's a microsoft plant	19:35
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, look at it another way	19:35
TSCHAKeee	the whole device screams "balanced"	19:35
TSCHAKeee	I know, my paranoid side is screaming microsoft plant	19:35
lcuk	ALL teams have gone into overdrive and we are seeing some of the best work to come out of Nokia for generations! :P	19:35
monoid	it looks great. now i want a wallet for it with a keyboard	19:35
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TSCHAKeee	for me, the N900 was the device i spent 20 years waiting for.	19:36
TSCHAKeee	and they topped that spectacularly	19:36
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lcuk	the n9 complement its TSCHAKeee	19:36
lcuk	it does not replace it	19:36
lcuk	it is a pretty sibling	19:37
TSCHAKeee	nod I see the N950 is the complement here, too bad it will not be publically released.	19:37
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GeneralAntilles	lcuk, yes it replaces it.	19:37
lcuk	GeneralAntilles, no, it does not.	19:37
GeneralAntilles	Considering that they don't manufacture N900s anymore	19:37
GeneralAntilles	Yes, it replaces it.	19:37
lcuk	it misses out on one important thing for me: stylus input.	19:37
TSCHAKeee	meh	19:37
TSCHAKeee	i could care less	19:37
GeneralAntilles	lcuk, that's irrelevant to whether or not it replaces it.	19:37
TSCHAKeee	really	19:37
lcuk	GeneralAntilles, I can have both on my desk	19:38
monoid	nice youtubes of the n950	19:38
TSCHAKeee	i've used stylus PDAs since BEFORE the fucking Newton came out	19:38
berndhs	TSCHAKeee: so you care some :)	19:38
monoid	i want one :(	19:38
GeneralAntilles	lcuk, good for you. That's irrelevant to everybody else.	19:38
TSCHAKeee	and after 20 some odd years of trying to use a flat LCD screen like a wirebound notebook	19:38
TSCHAKeee	i came to one inescapable conclusion	19:38
monoid	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8jH_apD2k hands-on N950 (czech)	19:38
TSCHAKeee	that was fucking retarded.	19:38
lcuk	GeneralAntilles, getting a C5 too	19:38
lcuk	which has stlyus input and runs symbian	19:38
DawnFoster	ahem. Language people	19:39
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TSCHAKeee	sigh.	19:39
DawnFoster	I really don't have a profanity filter, just weird timing ;)	19:39
TSCHAKeee	i have to deal with political correctness everywhere in this crazy country	19:39
Termana	hey DawnFoster	19:39
lcuk	DawnFoster, who do I prod about bug 19616	19:39
MeeGoBot	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19616 nor, Low, ---, jerry.yu, NEW, [ideapad] Video Out using VGA cable does not support mirroring	19:39
TSCHAKeee	I have to deal with it in HERE TOO?!	19:39
monoid	couldn't they make a few thousand n950s and sell them to people who beg and promise not to cause trouble?	19:39
TSCHAKeee	i've had enough.	19:39
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TSCHAKeee	free speech is dead, and we all killed it.	19:40
TSCHAKeee	later.	19:40
Termana	Don't let the door hit you on the way out.	19:41
DawnFoster	lcuk - give it a couple of days, and if you don't get a response ping me next week	19:41
lcuk	ok will do, thanks	19:41
ali1234	lcuk: c5-03?	19:41
lcuk	ali1234, yeah, what do you know about it	19:41
ali1234	not much. i didn't realise anyone was still making phones with resistive screens	19:41
ali1234	well, except those fake iphone guys	19:42
lcuk	i need it for sketching	19:42
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lcuk	and it gives me some incentive to port liqbase sketches to qt	19:42
monoid	is so pretty :( n950	19:42
monoid	screen looks a bit dark in the video i linked	19:43
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ali1234	personally i want a C7 with meego on it	19:43
niala	lo	19:43
ali1234	don't care about N9	19:43
monoid	c7 with 800x480 ok	19:44
monoid	only 250 n950s... :(	19:44
Stskeeps	ivan__: it's fairly similar, that's why i said inspiration :)	19:45
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monoid	man, the zeiss autofocus lens ++	19:47
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lcuk	monoid, can youplease confirm	19:47
monoid	wide angle glory hallelujah	19:47
monoid	sorry what now	19:47
lcuk	you do have both hands on the keyboard whilst typing all this don't you?	19:47
monoid	lol	19:47
monoid	i don't want a candy bar phone :( i want a keyboard like n900	19:48
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pebcak	only 250 n950 for the meego community right?	19:53
pebcak	not overall?	19:53
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monoid	:( :(	19:53
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monoid	#meego: Total of 491 nicks	19:53
boss	monoid: Error: "meego:" is not a valid command.	19:53
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monoid	ok boss	19:53
CosmoHill	#kitten	19:54
CosmoHill	#kitten:	19:54
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boss	CosmoHill: Error: "kitten" is not a valid command.	19:54
boss	CosmoHill: Error: "kitten:" is not a valid command.	19:54
CosmoHill	you're slow	19:54
monoid	thiago_home: how many euros do i need to pay you to 'lose' your n950?	19:55
monoid	:)_	19:55
niala	hello CosmoHill	19:55
CosmoHill	for 100 € I'll mug him	19:55
CosmoHill	salut niala	19:55
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thiago_home	monoid: sorry, no chance. I'll give it back on Friday.	19:57
monoid	i have unreleased game client for sdl	19:57
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shlevy	Does MeeGo have the Mono framework? I'm a developer for a C# app that we currently run on Ubuntu but want to port to meego	20:07
monoid	use qt	20:07
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shlevy	monoid: Does that mean MeeGo doesn't have Mono?	20:09
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wmarone_	mono is not part of meego, IIRC	20:09
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monoid	wow ssvb in finland	20:11
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monoid	how is the video accelerated in n9	20:12
Venemo	shlevy, I think Mono exists in the MeeGo repository, but it is not part of the default install	20:12
shlevy	Venemo: Is there an easy way for me to check for myself what version and such are available?	20:12
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Venemo	shlevy, I'm not that familiar with the MeeGo infrastructure, but: http://www.google.hu/search?q=mono+site%3Arepo.meego.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a	20:16
Venemo	maybe someone more knowledgeable will come along and enlighten us	20:16
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hiemanshu	shlevy: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.2.0/repos/oss/ia32/packages/i586/	20:24
hiemanshu	look for mono	20:24
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hiemanshu	mono-core-2.6.3-2.17.i586.rpm	20:24
hiemanshu	so yes there is mono	20:25
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arjan	shlevy: there is mono for some of the netbook apps; but anything but netbook and your app will look very out of place	20:26
arjan	(and it's not guaranteed that mono will remain there)	20:26
shlevy	arjan: Ok, thanks	20:27
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lcuk	groan at the pun I just posted on twitter	20:30
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npm	arjan : if mono goes doesn't that mean banshee goes too? (i won't miss it, but... it's part of the netbook ux)	21:00
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npm	hopefully Vala isn't going to get the axe ... that would be sad.	21:01
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matr0	npm: vala is just a dev-tool that translates code to c and then compiles	21:02
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ali1234	npm: i thought mono was never part of the official spec	21:02
matr0	mono is a whole framework	21:02
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npm	um, i know, since i've programmed in vala	21:02
ali1234	that is, it's only there because of banshee	21:02
npm	however, i was happy to see that it's in meego	21:02
matr0	(which i personally don't to be part of my OS)...	21:02
npm	means i don't have to port http://code.google.com/p/spekle/	21:03
npm	yes, mono is there because of banshee. i think porting amarok to meego makes more sense	21:04
thiago_home	or something new	21:04
* CosmoHill wonders if he should use JFS or XFS		21:04
npm	yeah or somethign new that has good functionality	21:04
thiago_home	like tomahawk	21:04
* npm googles		21:05
* thiago_home has never used that though		21:05
thiago_home	two good friends of mine work on it	21:05
npm	thiago_home: http://tomahawk-player.org/ looks insteresting	21:06
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npm	what we really need is a C++ Qt-based "Core" for media player and QML example wrapper	21:06
npm	that can be targetted to difft uxes etc	21:07
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pebcak	CosmoHill jfs	21:08
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CosmoHill	what I should do when I have time / not being lazy, great a 10GB partition on my hard drive and benchmark different file systems	21:10
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npm	thiago_home: stopped dead in trax by meego building tomahawk: "Phonon version 4.5.0 or higher is required, you have version 4.4.0"	21:12
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npm	http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo-Lem to the rescue :-)	21:12
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npm	(now at least i have a choice of which system i want to make noncompliant by pulling in fedora packages)	21:13
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* alterego wishes Nokia would publish the manual sdk instructions, I get bored looking through python installation apps :)		21:15
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npm	doh, fedora 14's still at phonon 4.4, and fedora 15 RPM's are not a happy combo w/ meego	21:17
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npm	anybody built tomahawk for meego before i waste more time	21:17
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hiemanshu	yeah, I wish meego sdk worked on fedora 15	21:18
* hiemanshu hates having to use the Ubuntu VM		21:18
npm	no i'm talking about fedora 32 bit rpms on meego.	21:18
npm	makes compiling massive apps a lot easier	21:18
hiemanshu	ah	21:18
npm	(cheating, but who cares)	21:18
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npm	also good for working around problems: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16879	21:20
MeeGoBot	Bug 16879 nor, Low, ---, nick.bao, NEW, hunspell dumps core with default english dictionary, and is installed with no default dictionary	21:20
CosmoHill	bug 12345	21:20
MeeGoBot	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12345 nor, Medium, ---, elias.luttinen, NEW, Requirement: Parameter errors reported to Publishers	21:20
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Hei_Ku	hello	21:28
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CosmoHill	hi Hei_Ku	21:36
Hei_Ku	I'm looking for the maintainer or someone responsible of the libpurple package in MeeGo	21:38
Hei_Ku	there's a patch we need for it in meego 1.2	21:38
* Stskeeps checks the last list		21:39
Stskeeps	Hei_Ku: closest you can get is anas nashif - best to just send a package update	21:41
Hei_Ku	ok	21:41
Stskeeps	doesn't have a maintainer noted, so	21:41
Hei_Ku	Stskeeps: thanks. I'll try anas	21:42
Stskeeps	he was the last one packaging, so	21:42
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andre__	dneary, I remember you pinged me earlier today	22:00
dneary	andre__, Yes	22:00
andre__	dneary, I don't remember the question (if you asked it) but I remember that a related answer/comment could be lbt's proposal to link the package database grouping and the Bugzilla grouping	22:00
dneary	It was to find out how realistic mu idea of including a gitorious link for every module in MeeGo Bugzilla was	22:01
andre__	ah!	22:01
dneary	I didn't ask the question	22:01
dneary	s/gitorious/source code	22:01
andre__	now if that information was stored in the package DB grouping as a mandatory field for every package that could fix it	22:01
andre__	(and if that linking was implemented of course)	22:01
dneary	andre__, It's not quite that straightforward for something like the package manager	22:02
andre__	lbt proposed it at the EM BoF in SF	22:02
dneary	After digging into it, it turns out that the error, and the error message, are passed up from PackageKit	22:02
dneary	Which sucks a bit	22:02
dneary	Will ping hughsie to tell him the error message sucks	22:02
andre__	ah	22:02
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Venemo	hey guys	22:25
Venemo	how can I acquire a Nokia N950?	22:25
Stskeeps	read quim's blog	22:25
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anidel	here: http://t.co/ASlYRoN	22:27
monoid	250 is :/	22:27
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Venemo	so they manufactured only 250 units, and that's it?	22:28
Stskeeps	nah, 250 for meego developer device programme	22:28
alterego	Venemo: no, just 250 given out to MeeGo community developers.	22:28
Venemo	ah, I understand	22:29
Venemo	will it be available for purchase	22:29
alterego	No	22:29
alterego	It's a developer device only.	22:29
Stskeeps	s/given/loaned/	22:29
alterego	But you can apply for it through meego.com (which I recommend you do)	22:29
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Venemo	so how do I acquire one if I don't get it through the developer device programme?	22:29
alterego	Or you can apply for 'one through Nokia developer launch pad.	22:29
alterego	Venemo: simple answer, you don't.	22:30
alterego	More complicated answer, earn it :P	22:30
alterego	Cop out commercial answer, develop apps for Ovi :P	22:30
Venemo	what if I actually WANT to keep such a device?	22:30
Stskeeps	if this goes on, it'll end up being all lord of the flies	22:30
alterego	Venemo: when the N9 is released, the 250 selected N950 owners get to choose to keep or trade, as I understand it.	22:31
Venemo	really?	22:31
alterego	That is what Quim said yesterday.	22:31
Venemo	that is very nice, but the N950 is vastly superior than N9 (bigger screen, keyboard, etc)	22:31
Tronic	Not vastly superior, no AMOLED etc.	22:32
alterego	Well, they're pretty much the same, except you're kinda trading a keyboard for NFC	22:32
alterego	Personally I want the NFC	22:32
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Tronic	Still quite clearly better overall, I'd say.	22:32
alterego	I'll keep the N950, to be unique and buy an N9	22:32
Venemo	what the heck is NFC?	22:32
Venemo	~nfc	22:32
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Tronic	I don't really get the point of NFC.	22:32
alterego	Near Field Comms	22:32
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alterego	It's in all the phones now-a-days ;)	22:32
Tronic	How is it better than BT, especially if BT pairing is required before it can be used?	22:32
Venemo	where is infobot when I need him?	22:32
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alterego	Tronic: BT has nothing to do with NFC	22:33
MohammadAG	<alterego> I'll keep the N950 \|\| which part of loan didn't you get? :P	22:33
RST38h	different animals, indeed	22:33
alterego	The headset demo in Singapore using BT and NFC was an example of what can be done using both.	22:33
Tronic	Some site said that BT pairing is required before the first use of NFC but maybe they had wrong information.	22:33
alterego	MohammadAG: which part of "You can keep it or trade it with N9" didn't you get?	22:33
Venemo	alterego, so, you can keep the N950 even though it's a loaner, or you can buy it at the end, or what?	22:33
alterego	Venemo: No, when the N9 is release, you have a choice of keeping the N950, or trading it in for an N9.	22:34
alterego	I don't know how I can say that in a clearer way ..	22:34
MohammadAG	alterego, oh really? damn /me walks away :P	22:34
Venemo	alterego, so this is not a loan after all	22:34
alterego	Well, it's a tentative loan.	22:34
Tronic	Where are USB and headphone connectors located on N950?	22:34
alterego	Tronic: on the sides	22:34
alterego	Similar to N900 from what I can tell.	22:35
Tronic	It appears that both are on top end of the phone on N9, which sucks if you want to talk while charging.	22:35
Venemo	all the loaner N900s had to be returned afaik	22:35
GeneralAntilles	Gotta find an NFC reader I can use for the door locks.	22:35
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Tronic	alterego: N900 has the same problem, it'd be better if they were both on the bottom end or if at least the charger was.	22:35
alterego	Venemo: sure, but this isn't the N900 and this isn't maemo.org	22:35
Venemo	sure	22:35
alterego	Tronic: maybe, I don't really care :P	22:35
alterego	Venemo: we never had N810 loaners for instance	22:36
Venemo	mhm	22:36
alterego	And I had to pay full price for my N900 ..	22:36
* alterego kicks stupid maemo.org karma		22:36
Venemo	I did so too, but at the time I did it because I thought it was a good phone, not because I wanted to develop for it	22:36
Venemo	later on I found out that Qt development is fun, and the adventure began	22:37
alterego	Meh, I did for both reasons ;)	22:37
Venemo	well, at the time, I wasn't familiar with Qt or Linux or anything like this at all :)	22:37
Venemo	I was a .NET developer	22:37
alterego	Yes, and look at you now :)	22:37
Venemo	hehe, thanks :)	22:37
alterego	Seriously though, you've got a very good chance of getting one imo	22:38
rafael2k	people, I didn't get it. What can I do to get/buy an N950?	22:38
alterego	List all your maemo contributions in the text box where it says "HAve you done anything for maemo" :P	22:38
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Venemo	thank you alterego	22:38
alterego	rafael2k: Are you a software developer that works on maemo or meego?	22:38
Tronic	The marketing of N900 failed. I only bought one Sep 2010 and found out what an awesome device it was. If someone had told me before that I can have essentially a phone-sized Linux laptop that also has a good phone and UI that actually works well in that size, I would had been in the queue in front of the store the day it became available.	22:38
Venemo	there is one thing I still don't quite get.	22:38
MohammadAG	list? I linked to my git and maemo.org pages	22:38
alterego	MohammadAG: I'm sure that will suffice.	22:39
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alterego	Venemo: yes?	22:39
rafael2k	alterego: yes	22:39
alterego	rafael2k: then apply for the developer program on meego.com	22:39
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Venemo	on the application form, there is an entry "Project Name" and "Project URL", but I don't have a specific project in mind that I would work on. Instead, I want to work on various stuff and ideas	22:39
Tronic	Every now and then people came over to an open-source project I work on, to ask for a N900 port, but I had no idea. My only thoughts were that it was some mobile device and that porting to it would be really difficult.	22:40
rafael2k	where this form is?	22:40
Stskeeps	Ulf_: i may have a hunch on the lockup thing, currently rebuilding arm glibc to verify it	22:40
Venemo	alterego, what do you think?	22:41
alterego	Venemo: pick your most impressive one ;)	22:41
Tronic	I just hope that MeeGo devices get pushed properly so that people actually know what they are and why they want one :)	22:41
alterego	But also note that you have a lot of things you wanna port across in the bottom box.	22:41
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Venemo	alterego, I'm thinking of writing "Various" into the project name field and link to a page/blog entry on which I write a list of projects I want to make	22:41
alterego	Tronic: I don't think this device is the same kind of thing as the N900, this really is marketted at normal users.	22:41
alterego	It has MMS ffs :P	22:41
Tronic	I consider N9 an iPhone killer. Maybe not a phone I'd like to replace my N900 with, but with a phone that I would pay the full price for even if I got iPhone for free.	22:42
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Tronic	*but a phone	22:42
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Venemo	anyway, I definitely don't wish to pay for the N950/N9, as it's not worth it IMO, but I would very much like to develop for it (alongside the N900 of course)	22:43
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Tronic	alterego: I've had fMMS installed on N900 for ages, never sent or received any MMS, I think.	22:43
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alterego	Tronic: would you class yourself as a normal user? ;)	22:43
alterego	I've never MMS'd either, I don't even have fMMS instaled.	22:43
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Venemo	I never installed fMMS, and guess what, I've never needed it	22:44
Tronic	alterego: I suppose that I am your average Joe adult user.	22:44
alterego	Venemo: I installed it once to get some pics of your mom naked :P	22:44
Venemo	alterego, :D	22:44
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MohammadAG	what's with the your mom jokes around here lately? :P	22:45
alterego	MohammadAG: I don't know, I've never stopped talking about yours ..	22:45
GeneralAntilles	http://www.smarthome.com/7434/Visonic-VXS-5-Proximity-Access-Control-System/p.aspx	22:45
Stskeeps	yes, please keep it clean and according to irc guidelines	22:45
GeneralAntilles	Looks about right.	22:45
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alterego	Heh, nice	22:45
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Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Actually NFC?	22:47
* MohammadAG stabs alterego :p		22:47
SpeedEvil	Ithere is no one 'NFC'	22:47
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, RFID. Can program arbitrary tags in.	22:48
GeneralAntilles	So I believe it should work.	22:48
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SpeedEvil	Many of the fun potential apps of a NFC device in your phone are strongly ameliorated by the fact that it has a battery which runs fown	22:49
berndhs	aren't there induction chargers ?	22:50
SpeedEvil	The n9 I mean	22:50
berndhs	would be cool if it had one	22:50
SpeedEvil	Induction chargers are not magic.	22:51
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berndhs	no but you have less trouble with connectors	22:51
SpeedEvil	They waste energy, and heat the phone up noticably over what it might otherwise be.	22:51
berndhs	sure	22:51
SpeedEvil	The right fix for that is a dock connector.	22:51
SpeedEvil	But...	22:51
berndhs	i'm thinking about harsher environments, like boats	22:52
DocScrutinizer	old nokias had GREAT docks	22:52
SpeedEvil	A device like a phone is hard to truly seal properly.	22:52
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SpeedEvil	Basically the only way you can really do it is to pack the whole thing with silicone gel.	22:53
DocScrutinizer	nokia has some ruggedized models	22:53
berndhs	yes it would get bulkier	22:53
SpeedEvil	Which is an option.	22:53
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SpeedEvil	And connectors get nasty	22:53
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loft306	http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/nokia-n950-pictures-a-gallerys-worth-of-meego-to-tell-the-stor/	22:53
lcuk	what about the golden shellback stuff	22:53
loft306	oop-	22:53
DocScrutinizer	contact plates	22:53
SpeedEvil	I love the video of the BBC journalist, at the expo, with a guy demoing 'unbreakable' phones.	22:53
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SpeedEvil	Of course - there's the obligatory fishtank to show waterproofness.	22:54
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: probably same thing I referred to?	22:54
lcuk	SpeedEvil, :D	22:54
lcuk	he whacks it on the corner	22:54
SpeedEvil	So - the BBC journalist is asked 'do whatever you want to it' - and he starts hitting the screen on the corner of the fishtank.	22:54
SpeedEvil	Oops.	22:54
lcuk	:D:D	22:54
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Ulf_	Stskeeps, cool!	22:54
lcuk	similar is the guy holding the rare expensive irreplacable wax disks	22:54
lcuk	SpeedEvil, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnsizkVjGm8	22:56
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Venemo	alterego, you know, my problem with all this stuff is that I still haven't managed to get a job in Qt... :(	22:57
alterego	Heh	22:57
alterego	I just read qgil's forum post.	22:57
Venemo	alterego, I got a WP7 project recently... ehh.	22:57
alterego	Apparently they're more after app devs than platform devs.	22:57
* alterego is screwed.		22:57
alterego	So, it's not a reward scheme, it's a freakin' app grab.	22:59
* alterego sobs		22:59
MohammadAG	columbus is an app :p	22:59
alterego	Sure it is,	22:59
lcuk	columbus is a feature rich framework :P	22:59
lcuk	errr app	22:59
alterego	Heh	22:59
Venemo	lcuk, do you have an N950 yet? :)	23:00
alterego	lcuk: you forgot, "unmaintained" :P	23:00
alterego	Harmattan would change that for me somewhat.	23:00
MohammadAG	still helped get on with Qt :p	23:00
berndhs	my IRC window looks a lot like an xterm, causing me to type int eh wrong window	23:00
lcuk	Venemo, I have no device with a number over 10	23:00
* alterego chuckles		23:00
Venemo	lcuk, you have an N9 then?	23:00
alterego	HE has an N00	23:00
Venemo	aaahhhh......	23:01
alterego	lcuk: you should have said 1 :P	23:01
lcuk	well I tohught binary 2 was enough of a hint ;)	23:01
berndhs	dont just accept the manufacturers numbers, just relabel it	23:01
lcuk	*thought	23:02
Venemo	so the final name is "MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan"	23:02
alterego	Heh	23:02
alterego	Venemo: seems that way.	23:02
alterego	Though they should have done a better s/maemo/meego/g ..	23:02
Venemo	alterego, I thought that LF will not allow them to release something called MeeGo which is not MeeGo compliant...	23:02
Venemo	anyway, it's nicer than what I expected.	23:03
Jaffa	Venemo: No-one ever said that.	23:03
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Venemo	Jaffa, hm?	23:03
berndhs	even if someone did say that, someone would need to bring up the issue with the LF	23:03
alterego	Yeah, it's just a few letters man ..	23:03
alterego	And even if some one did that, the LF would have to give a scht ;	23:04
Venemo	lol	23:04
berndhs	big manufactureres are really really equal	23:04
Venemo	I don't care this much.	23:04
Elleo	I'm a little unclear on what the recommended development style is for meego applications, is QT Quick/QML prefered? QtMobile?	23:04
berndhs	not just plain equal like you and me	23:04
Jaffa	Elleo: QML	23:05
Elleo	okay; I took a look at QML, but after installing the SDK couldn't find see much in the way of standardised widgets, just a handful of very basic types with the documentation seeming to imply they should be extended to create even simple things like buttons	23:05
Elleo	am I missing something?	23:05
Elleo	surely everyone shouldn't be creating new button styles with each application, etc.	23:06
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Venemo	Elleo, yes, there are various projects aimed at creating a unifying widget framework for QML, none of which (to my knowledge) are mature enough to justify using QML at all	23:06
pvuorela	Elleo: for actual widgets -> QtComponents.	23:06
alterego	Elleo: that's why we have meego-ux-components ..	23:06
Elleo	alterego: is that not distributed with the SDK?	23:07
berndhs	there will be a wide array of choices for standardized components	23:07
Elleo	or just not preconfigured for use in the meego version of qtcreator?	23:07
Venemo	however, you should really use MTF for Harmattan, or is it obsolete now on Harmattan too?	23:07
thiago_home	Venemo: there are many reasons to use QML already. Existing apps prove it.	23:07
thiago_home	they don't have native look-and-feel yet, granted.	23:07
alterego	Which SDK?	23:07
thiago_home	some apps don't require that.	23:07
Elleo	alterego: 1.2	23:08
alterego	Harmattan has qt components which themes correctly.	23:08
Venemo	thiago_home, I'm not saying there are not any reasons for QML, just that IMO it isn't worth it yet. but I'm all for the idea of a declarative GUI, for sure.	23:08
alterego	Elleo: that's a version number, not an SDK name ..	23:08
Elleo	alterego: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.2	23:08
thiago_home	Venemo: well, I'm disagreeing and saying that IMO it's worth it for some cases already.	23:08
Elleo	it's simply listed as being the meego sdk 1.2	23:09
alterego	Elleo: what are you targeting? Tablet, Handset?	23:09
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Elleo	alterego: handset, ideally I'd like it to run across both maemo and meego	23:09
Venemo	thiago_home, for the cases that don't require nativ look & feel, sure	23:09
alterego	Elleo: then you're best bet is QML	23:09
alterego	And custom widgets ..	23:09
Elleo	I assume the meego-ux widgets will work under maemo?	23:10
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Elleo	if they're just simple qml definitions?	23:10
alterego	In a manner ..	23:10
pvuorela	harmattan already includes some apps using qtcomponents.	23:10
alterego	Well, not all of them are.	23:10
thiago_home	pvuorela: right, but qtcomponents isn't standard	23:11
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Elleo	well I'll have a play with meego-ux-components for now	23:11
Elleo	see if I can get something using them running on my n900 under maemo	23:11
alterego	thiago_home: it should be standard for Qt ;)	23:11
thiago_home	alterego: unfortunately, it isn't	23:12
alterego	yet?	23:12
alterego	Or never?	23:12
thiago_home	because we didn't manage to make it work everywhere (namely, MeeGo), it can't be	23:12
thiago_home	that needs to be fixed first	23:12
alterego	Erm ..	23:12
thiago_home	only then can it be part of Qt	23:12
alterego	Surely Qt is upstream.	23:12
alterego	Screw MeeGo UX Components ..	23:12
thiago_home	doesn't count if you don't take the requirements of MeeGo into consideration in your design phase	23:12
alterego	Just make sure they're better, which wont be that hard ..	23:13
Elleo	I'm guessing all the nice GTK Hildon stuff doesn't ship as standard with meego? ;)	23:13
alterego	Elleo: no, and HArmattan doesn't even have backward compatibility any more I don't think.	23:13
thiago_home	alterego: tbh, "works" is more important than "better"	23:13
thiago_home	but if both work, then the better one wins	23:13
Venemo	Elleo, GTK Hildon is not "standard with meego"	23:14
Elleo	pity, I know my way around gtk :/	23:14
Elleo	all the qt tools and infrastructure is something of a mystery to me still	23:14
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Elleo	hmm, seems the meego-ux stuff is very dependant on other meego things	23:18
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Venemo	I think Gtk is in the MeeGo repo, but not installed by default	23:19
Elleo	I'm guessing this'll pretty much rule out symbian portability of qml stuff too?	23:19
Jaffa	thiago_home: What's the gap between it running on Harmattan and running on MeeGo?	23:20
Jaffa	Elleo: Qt Components works on Symbian, as does raw QML	23:20
Jaffa	Elleo: My QML app works on Maemo, Harmattan & Symbian	23:20
thiago_home	Jaffa: of the components? there's a report I had made, let me find it.	23:20
Elleo	okay, guess I'll go with Qt Components then	23:20
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thiago_home	Jaffa: http://wiki.qtlabs.org.br/projects/qt-components	23:23
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Jaffa	thiago_home: Thanks	23:23
Jaffa	thiago_home: So, say the bold Button - is that saying there's something commonisable?	23:24
thiago_home	Jaffa: I'm not sure of the details, tbh	23:24
thiago_home	the point was to find what was different, what was commonisable and what was platform-specific (i.e., shouldn't be there)	23:25
thiago_home	the people doing the work should be able to understand that	23:25
Jaffa	thiago_home: That'll be handy. I'm sure my first app'll have some kind of abstraction between MeeGo UX Components and Qt Components, using the bits I want.	23:25
Jaffa	thiago_home: "shouldn't be there" - so is this describing problems with Qt Components or MeeGo UX Components? ;-)	23:25
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thiago_home	Jaffa: both	23:27
rafael2k	is meego summer release out?	23:27
Jaffa	thiago_home: Fair enough	23:27
Jaffa	rafael2k: Delayed a day	23:27
rafael2k	Jaffa: thanks	23:27
Jaffa	thiago_home: I'm sure we'll see some movement on it from the community app devs the moment people start getting N950s and have N8s, N900s and ExoPCs they want to target too.	23:27
thiago_home	and I've got a team ready to do the work of harmonisation	23:28
* TSCHAKeee is just sticking to standard Qt Quick		23:28
thiago_home	I just need to find the funding for them	23:28
TSCHAKeee	and doing my own components	23:28
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lcuk	thiago_home, as with many teams.	23:30
lcuk	that word sounds good though	23:30
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Venemo	will Harmattan run on da good ol' N900?	23:35
TSCHAKeee	no	23:36
Venemo	:(	23:37
Venemo	but MeeGo itself will, right?	23:37
Venemo	do we know whether Harmattan's UX is FOSS or not?	23:37
Jaffa	Venemo: Harmattan's UX is not FOSS	23:38
andre__	mostly not.	23:38
Jaffa	Venemo: As has been seen, it's clearly a powerful differentitor	23:38
Jaffa	(but spelt right)	23:38
lcuk	jaffa, the issue is not what can be achieved now	23:39
lcuk	but what OSS could help with.	23:39
lcuk	and what more it could become	23:39
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javispedro	what is closed about the harmattan ux	23:39
javispedro	I mean, seriously. Theme files?	23:40
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javispedro	this needs a big large list	23:40
Jaffa	javispedro: Are the three homescreens & lots of the apps OSS? I haven't checked the platform SDK yet	23:40
javispedro	they are, though for some reason gitorious still has an older version	23:40
javispedro	but package is on free	23:40
Venemo	so	23:41
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javispedro	note: talking about meegotouchhome (aka three homescreens)	23:41
Venemo	we can "just" repackage the UX for MeeGo and then run it on the N900?	23:41
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javispedro	lots of apps obviously aren't OSS.	23:41
lcuk	Venemo, we can just repackage your package and sell it	23:42
lcuk	RESPECT THEIR LICENSE.	23:42
* lcuk stands off soapbox		23:42
Venemo	lcuk, if the license is FOSS, then repackaging it will still respect its license.	23:42
javispedro	Stskeeps: does it cost too much to run that script that gets all packages from repo and counts free/non-free ones? ;)	23:43
lcuk	Venemo, you miss my point	23:43
Jaffa	lcuk: As noted, the N9 is garnering attention for all of it together. Having three home screens and N900-style multitasking isn't it. It's the hardware, software, themes, styles & apps.	23:44
lcuk	yep	23:44
Venemo	lcuk, you can repackage my app and sell it (it is permitted by the EUPL), as long as you comply with the license, eg. don't remove the credits and also distribute the sources to everyone you sell it to.	23:45
lcuk	Jaffa, boiled down best in class features, it is a smart piece of kit to be sure.	23:45
Venemo	lcuk, which point am I missing?	23:45
javispedro	Venemo: but, for a start, themes are non-free. and themes on harmattan do not seem like a trivial thing.	23:45
Jaffa	lcuk: So if the three home screens are FLOSS, there's no ethical or moral issue to having them on MeeGo UX	23:45
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lcuk	Jaffa, I have had one of them for a while ;)	23:45
Jaffa	javispedro: From what kontorri was saying, it sounds very complex indeed.	23:46
javispedro	Jaffa: for fscks sake, harmattan theme files even containt the swipe detection algorithm parameters	23:46
javispedro	*contain	23:46
Jaffa	javispedro: Wow	23:46
X-Fade	in css :)	23:46
Jaffa	Eek	23:46
Venemo	javispedro, really? huh!	23:46
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X-Fade	It is cool, because then you can alter them and add cool other swipes :)	23:47
javispedro	as I was saying on #maemo, dconf, gconf, etc... why? you can use cascading style^Wconfiguration sheets	23:48
lcuk	<TSCHAKeee> SWIPER, NO SWIPIN!	23:48
lcuk	<TSCHAKeee> SWIPER NO SWIPIN!	23:48
lcuk	<TSCHAKeee> SWIPER, NO SWIPIN!	23:48
lcuk	<TSCHAKeee> OHHHH MAAAANNN!!!!	23:48
lcuk	<TSCHAKeee> :P	23:48
javispedro	they even make some sense, if you look at them with one eye closed =)	23:48
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javispedro	Jaffa: if you have the platform sdk, look in /usr/share/themes/base/meegotouch/libmeegotouchcore/style/mswiperecognizerstyle.css	23:54
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Venemo	one final question is, if Harmattan will be successful, will there be other devices as well?	23:55
lcuk	i imagine Nokia will continue to produce mobile phones, yes.	23:56
Tronic	lcuk: Quite possibly only Windows Phones and S40.	23:57
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