IRC log of #meego for Wednesday, 2011-06-15

npmali1234:  see package chrome-meego-extension00:00
ali1234what about it?00:00
npmthat's where the message comes from i believe00:00
ali1234it's already reported?00:00
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ali1234java is not in the meego repos?00:01
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npmno, java is oracles00:02
ali1234...and it has no idea what OS i am running00:02
npmperaps openjdk00:02
ali1234i don't see "meego"00:02
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npmyou have to use the fedora one00:02
ali1234this sucks from a UX perspective, i hope you guys realise this00:03
ali1234there isn't any fedora one00:03
ali1234there's only "linux"00:03
npmthe one that says 32 bit RPM format00:03
ali1234i will take the bin file00:03
npmrun the script as the regular user so it doesn't install00:03
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npmand just unpacks the rpms00:03
npmthen throw out the javadb rpms and just install the jdk one00:04
ali1234i will justtake the bin file and install it properly00:04
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npm"properly" means it does stuff you may not want00:04
npmlike install a bunch of javadb rpms that i'll never use00:04
ali1234well, installing fedora rpms on a not-fedora distro is pretty high on my list of "things i don't want"00:04
npmthat's kind of like saying breathing air is on the high list of things you don't want00:05
npmyou may drown trying00:05
ali1234hmm what's this00:05
ali1234"* please use the 32-bit version for Java applet and Java Web Start support"00:05
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ali1234i bet that's why it doesn't work on my ubuntu00:06
npmbasically since nobodys heard about meego, if you go to any site, be it adobe, oracle, or google to install all their must have software you'll be installing Fedora RPMs00:06
npmexcept google labels theirs Fedora or OpenSUSE00:06
ali1234no i won't00:06
ali1234i'll be downloading the package that says "all other"00:06
ali1234the one that's a .bin file00:07
ali1234the one that doesn't go anywhere near the package manager00:07
ali1234actually i've never seen software distributed as rpm packages before00:07
ali1234it's normally a deb file or a tgz00:07
npmthat's silly. java updates regularly and i want to let RPM do the updating00:07
ali1234i didnt think anyone was insane enough to try to make cross platform RPMs00:07
mwichmannactually, lots of people try that00:08
ali1234considering how easily RPM explodes even with native distro RPMs00:08
mwichmannit's.... tricky00:08
npmsame way i've done it for decades on fedora or RHEL boxen, some of which were for major sites00:08
ali1234boy i sure am in trolling mode today00:08
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ali1234also, if you just download a rpm from a website and install it with no repo backing it, you won't get any updates00:09
npmWell it googles case their chrome RPM claims it's for Fedora or OpenSuse but fails at meego because meego doesn't have certain expected dependencies00:09
ali1234unless the java rpm also messes with your repo configuration00:09
ali1234and that would be even higher on my list of "DO NOT WANT"00:09
npmbut they can be worked around  either with or by nastier hacks00:10
ali1234yes i read your email00:10
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npmthe java rpm does not mess w/ repo config00:10
npmgoogle's does00:10
ali1234this download sure is slow00:10
* lbt_nur agrees on the 'nasty hack' category... except that hack implies some kind of goodness :)00:11
ali1234not sure if because of ISP or just a slow downoload :(00:11
* lbt_nur greets npm :) .... hey there !00:11
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npmhi lbt_nur ... nur == nuremberg?00:13
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lbt_nurworking with some nice people over here00:14
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admiral0i can't seem to install meego DE on my n90000:16
admiral0can anybody help00:16
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phaeronadmiral0: it's kinda late ;)00:21
Saviqadmiral0: are you sure you want to overwrite your maemo installation? it's best to dualboot00:21
admiral0i'm hardcore00:22
ali1234npm: i just tried to install google chrome RPM and it *looks* like it's going to work but then it just sits on "installing" for ever00:22
admiral0no bother to dissuade me00:22
lbt_nurs/hardcore/inviting a diasaster/00:22
ali1234pretty bad really00:22
admiral0i backed up everything00:22
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Saviqadmiral0: still, it's simply bad for your device to reflash it again and again00:23
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Saviqit's not like you can replace the internal flash easily00:23
ali1234and now the window manager has gone crazy00:24
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admiral0i had my mb replaced by nokia (usb thingie)00:24
admiral0a couple of flashes won't kill it00:24
lbt_nuradmiral0: when the DE devs tell you not to do it unless you know what you're doing then the fact that you ask for help in the wrong chan suggests.... you may not :)00:24
ali1234no matter what i do i just get "myzone"plastered over everything00:24
admiral0i am no noob dudes00:24
Saviqadmiral0: then please listen00:25
Saviqget a cheap-o 2GB microSD00:25
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admiral0i am no noob dudes00:27
admiral0i thoought i was in console00:27
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ali1234now the whole UI has crashed00:28
admiral0yeah up<enter> works as expected00:28
ali1234seriosuly does anyone even test this stuff before it's released?00:28
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lbt_nurali1234: let me explain how opensource works....00:29
lbt_nuron second thoughts....00:29
ali1234lbt_nur: 1.2.0 is significantly more buggy than the RCs that came out in may00:29
npmsorry had to step away....... must go pickup son early... back later00:29
ali1234it's like someone broke into the repo the day before it was released and inserted hundreds and hundreds of bugs00:29
alteregoIt's more of a feature freeze than a stable release it seems ;)00:30
lbt_nurit's stable... it's just not reliable00:30
lbt_nurwhich is not as insane as it sounds00:30
ali1234i just wonder what's the point of even calling it a release when it's much lower quality than the development versions that came out a few days earlier00:30
lbt_nurali1234: how many devs have you got building a product against it?00:31
ali1234i mean if i want to get anything done with this i'm going to have to go back to like a 1.1.90 version or something00:31
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admiral0i get "Unable to enumerate USB devices!"00:31
* lbt_nur continues to be amazed that people think MeeGo is a distro00:31
ali1234yes, that's it, continue to make excuses00:32
ali1234if meego doesn't work properly, it's my fault00:32
ali1234because i should have just fixed every bug before i even knew about them00:32
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lbt_nurnope... but your expecatiions are wrong00:32
lbt_nurand it's not your fault00:32
ali1234why is it wrong to expect that 1.2.0 doesn't have new bugs that weren't in 1.1.90?00:33
lbt_nurbecause the UX isn't the focus of MeeGo00:34
ali1234the bugs aren't all in the UX00:34
lbt_nurfair answer00:34
ali1234zypper si doesn't even work00:34
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ali1234and it looks like the whole X server has crashed as well00:34
ali1234this is i would suspect hardware errors if it wasn't for the fact that all the other OS on this machine work perfectly00:35
admiral0i found the issue00:36
admiral0it was libusb00:36
admiral0i downloaded ubuntu deb00:36
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admiral0and preloaded it00:36
admiral0so if someone from arch or chakra comes with the same issue say to them it's libusb00:37
Saviqjeez what's with DDoS?00:37
ali1234what's wrong with libusb?00:37
admiral0i dunno00:38
admiral0flasher didn't like it00:38
ali1234ah maybe it's a version mismatch00:38
admiral0Unable to enumerate USB devices!00:38
ali1234flasher is not open source right?00:38
ali1234or you got a binary either way00:38
ali1234so that's probably it00:38
admiral0they could have statically compiled it00:38
admiral0but they didn't00:38
ali1234i think there's multiple versions of it actually00:39
admiral0it's same version btw00:39
ali1234pretty sure that i always download the one that says "32 bit static tgz"00:39
ali1234and it's like 10mb00:39
ali1234but maybe i'm thinking of something else00:39
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admiral0ldd says some libs are dynlinked00:39
lbt_nurSaviq: ??00:39
lbt_nuris it slow or being changed?00:39
Saviqlbt_nur: sloooow00:40
admiral0ali1234: is it normal for the n900 to sit quiet?00:40
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admiral0term is busy00:40
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admiral0but no output00:40
lbt_nurSaviq: not here...00:40
Saviqlbt_nur: though it was me, but all the other * seem to work fine00:40
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Saviqlbt_nur: it's fine if it's just me00:41
* lbt_nur wishes our external monitoring in IT was in better shape00:41
lbt_nurbut it's not high on the prio00:41
ali1234npm: ok, i installed the jre rpm, java still doesn't work in chromium though00:42
ali1234it just says "missing plugin"00:42
Saviqohkay, anyone managed to get additional libraries into SDK sysroot? tried `mad-admin xrpm`, but it seems uses some rpm cpio format that's unsupported in madde :/00:44
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ali1234aaaaand... finally got it working00:47
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alteregoSaviq: that is kinda lame :/00:49
Saviqalterego: kinda00:49
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Saviqalterego: fortunately there are other (documented) ways00:49
alteregoNice :)00:50
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ali1234npm: netalyzr detects 820 ms buffer latency00:58
ali1234but in some applications the lag is more like 8 seconds00:58
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alteregoali1234: you're looking at network performance?01:03
ali1234not really no01:03
ali1234this is not meego related01:03
ali1234it's my ISP01:03
alteregoOh, m'kay01:03
alteregoYou play warcraft?01:03
ali1234i don't play WoW - their broken packet shaper is affecting all kinds of things01:03
alteregoAh, m'kat ;)01:03
alterego~m'kay ..01:04
ali1234but the WoW players are the most vocal :)01:04
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ali1234so i'm just trying to pin down exactly what it does and does not affect so that i can raise a ticket that they can't just fix by whitelisting one IP address01:04
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alteregoWouldn't that be a good thing?01:07
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alteregoI found with my previous ISP, they didn't limit SSH,01:08
ali1234what do you mean?01:08
ali1234yes, same here01:08
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ali1234if i tunnel the affected programs through ssh, there is no latency01:08
alteregoSo I used to download large files to a remote server, then SCP them to my local network :)01:08
ali1234i even posted to that affect on the forum thread01:08
alteregoHeh, they should all setup a proxy? :)01:08
SpeedEvilali1234: Presumably you're not going through the affected hops in that case.01:08
ali1234yes, i posted a link to how to run WoW over ssh01:08
ali1234SpeedEvil: no, same server, different protocol01:09
ali1234but the thing is01:09
ali1234well, whitelisting on a per IP basis is not going to help me01:10
ali1234it will fix it for the WoW players01:10
ali1234but i don't play WoW, so i'm not helped01:10
ali1234unless they whitelist every IP address ever01:10
ali1234but then i might as well just ask them to turn off their packet shaper01:10
ali1234which they clearly are not going to do01:11
* SpeedEvil parts the channel. "At least I have chicken"01:11
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ali1234so basically i need to figure out how to raise the problem as a fault that perfectly matches what the packet shaper does01:13
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ali1234that way they can't refuse to fix it, and they can't fix it without fixing it for everyone01:13
ali1234but to do that i need to figure out what the shaper is actually doing01:13
SpeedEvilali1234: I remember that plusnet actually sets TOS bbyte on packets going through the shaper, so you can see the clas01:14
ali1234this seems to only affect outgoing packets01:15
ali1234but i will check that out01:15
alteregoThat seems, odd.01:15
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alteregoYou're async right?01:15
SpeedEvilali1234: Does the same happen to other pservers if you use WoW packets?01:15
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ali1234i dunno, i don't know what WoW packets are01:16
alteregoI should probably head to bed soon.01:21
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Alison_ChaikenRather positive press coverage of MeeGo.   Big up to DawnFoster and qgil, who are implicitly praised by the article author.01:49
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Alison_ChaikenAh, and I shouldn't neglect to mention Bob Spencer and texrat as well.    You guys are doing a great job.01:52
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npmthe article talks about JavaME being abandoned... and doesn't mention Oracle pushing these days02:14
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user0possible to connect to a remote shell using the rescue initad ?03:30
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bosszergmk2: Admin, Channel, Config, Misc, Notify, Owner, and User04:21
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berndhsyeah, time to go to sleep06:20
iekkuberndhs, :)06:20
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berndhsgood night06:22
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* mikeleib waves to all the boys and girls of the world07:36
mikeleibin looking at some of the maemo tools, I came across xresponse07:38
mikeleibI think it can measure how long it takes for an app to start, but I can't seem to get it to do what I want07:39
mikeleibanybody with experience in such things in the house?07:39
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iekkui think n900 ce people have measured the times, but not sure what they have used07:42
SpeedEvilI vaguely remember it's somehing that LD_PRELOADS the app, and then watches for GTK calls07:43
SpeedEvilwindow calls, rather07:43
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mikeleibfrom the README, it talks about damage events07:48
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SpeedEvilInitially the WM maps the window, and then sends the app a damage event, telling it to paint the window - I think07:51
SpeedEvilBut it's been a while since I've read it.07:51
Jay_BEEbbl... i think...07:55
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npma lil more progress:
npmdecided to make it an app first, then a panel like
npm(just re-wrapped cutetube for maemo/n900 into tablet ux)08:38
vvaltonewhy the menu/back buttons?08:39
vvaltonethe meego ux components provide atleast the 'menu' button08:40
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vvaltonebut I guess you're not using them?08:40
GonzoTheGreatlooks like stock qmltube (old version) to me08:40
npmgood point... because i just dropped the existing source code in and made it work08:40
npmit is08:41
npmGonzoTheGreat: is there a newer version?08:41
GonzoTheGreatmaemo doesn't have  meego ux component08:41
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GonzoTheGreatAre you using qmltube (qml) ore cutetube (python)?08:42
npmi just grabbed and started hacking08:43
npmnot much hacking actully, just some reparenting08:43
GonzoTheGreatI am running qmltube-0.9.8!08:43
npmso if there's a newer version or a git repo i don't know about pls let me know i found it here
npmwhere from?08:44
GonzoTheGreattoolbar is quite different08:44
npmyeah the comments/related tabs don't work for example08:44
GonzoTheGreatjust extras-devel via package manager.08:44
npmthey didn't in orig version but if there's a 0.9.8...08:45
GonzoTheGreatAlso got the source in scratchbox08:45
GonzoTheGreatsame version08:45
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GonzoTheGreatThe latest version has qtmultimedia playback as well08:46
npmcool. well i didn't do much work.08:47
npmi was trying to figure it out, then i decided to let qml figure it out for me and fix errors till i got things running08:47
npmand i got things running in short while08:47
GonzoTheGreatIMHO it is the best qml-based  program around. Quite snappy even on the old dog ;)08:48
villev/var/run/obs/worker/1/build/build: line 1259: 13235 Segmentation fault      umount $BUILD_ROOT08:49
npmyes, i started doing my own in pure qml, and was reminded by villev (hi ville) about cutetube qml being available in source08:49
GonzoTheGreatHave dabbled myself. Only desktop widgets so far though. Never got enough time to do something bigger.08:50
npmmine is a lot more concise ( )08:50
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npmand probably runs faster in some situations since it uses JSON API08:51
npm(on n900, feed-reading seems to spend a lot of time garbage collecting in qml)08:51
GonzoTheGreatUX performance seems much better than other applications e.g. kasvopus etc08:52
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npmyeah it works nicely even on n900, but then again so does my json viewer, other than firing up flash to display the vids08:52
npmso anyways i figured it's a good program to build for the tablet, and a cute-tube based panel  would improve
GonzoTheGreatso the panel is based your code?08:55
npmsame deal, a quick rip through my existing code to see if it would work in panel context08:55
npmbut then do i want to spend tome reinventing wheel or can i just frob cutetube into a panel08:56
npmdecided i can, but would first run cutetube as an app08:56
npmto see if anything else weird came up first08:56
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GonzoTheGreatI think the trouble is handcrafted qml<-> qml components<->meego ux components08:58
npmbut i have other stuff i want to do so leveraging as much of cutetube would be better08:58
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vvaltonemeego ux components are handcrafted qml ;P08:59
vvaltoneor sort of anyway08:59
GonzoTheGreatHow do you write something which works (intergrates) on maemo/symbian/meego-ux08:59
npmwell that's true, but the problem is on the tablet, if you don't wrap it w/ appropriate parent windows then it hoses up the tablet ux09:00
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npmfor example running plain cutetube-qml runs a full-window which prevents window switching09:00
GonzoTheGreatIs that what qml components were for?09:01
npmwell what i think is needed is an abstraction class that lets you write the same parent and wrapping to target whatever platform09:01
npmso you don't have to keep rewrapping for different uxes09:01
npmbut beyond that a "widget set" is needed along with CDE-like standards of behavior for the desktop, translated to the tablet world09:02
GonzoTheGreatBut there aren't consistent implementation of Qt.components yet?!09:02
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npm(ultimately, i don't want to think about transitions and visual fluff, i want to use whatever is appropriate for the device)09:03
GonzoTheGreatI thought e.g. the implementation Window would handle this09:03
npmhave the device be my fluffer :-)09:03
GonzoTheGreatimplementation of Window09:03
vvaltoneyeah, it does09:03
GonzoTheGreatSo are meego ux components compatible with Qt.components?09:04
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GonzoTheGreatThey are different includes right now, aren't they?09:04
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vvaltonea quick look, it's a superset?09:05
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npmwell basically i had to get rid of Window and reparent w/ MeeGo.Window09:05
npmMeeGo.Window { // see: ~/qtquick/ux/meego-ux-components/src/components/ux/Window.qml09:05
GonzoTheGreatWhich I think is bad.09:05
npmand MeeGo.AppPage { // see: ~/qtquick/ux/meego-ux-components/src/components/ux/AppPage.qml09:05
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npmi do too, but i'm just playing software DJ with the beat someone else chose09:06
npmtrying not to have a software trainwreck in the process09:07
GonzoTheGreatWell I was planning to do qml components for maemo, the lack of clarity however means I haven't started yet.09:07
npmah... well i'm basically using the tablet ux because i don't like wasting time doing stuff that should be trivial like popping up a dialog box09:08
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npmor making a selector, etc... so once Components are ready and I see apps being built w/ them, i'll give em a try09:09
GonzoTheGreattoo true09:10
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GonzoTheGreatI think that is the main problem at the moment. However if meego ux is different again there is no point.09:10
npmy'all haven't made very good progress in the last 20 years, given where i was at 20 years ago:
npmaka qml developed in the right language :-)09:12
* GonzoTheGreat thinks flame war is near09:12
npmnah, i09:12
npmm done w/ language wars. all hail javascript09:13
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npmbut there are a lot of steps backwards taken, in tablet-UX... it's like X10 all over again09:14
GonzoTheGreatwaltone: who is ther any cooparetaion (left) between meego components and qt.components?09:14
npmputting the window management functionality into the app09:14
* GonzoTheGreat should learn typing09:14
npmor the fact that my app spends time burbling about which neighbors wireless connections are going on/offline so as to draw the icon  when it disconnects09:16
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npmor on a wired network it burbles "Debug: id: 0 name: Wired state: 6 type: ethernet: path: /profile/default/ethernet_60eb69283c97_cable"09:17
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iekkugood morning gabrbedd11:15
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RST38hAnyone alive? =)11:35
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RST38hStskeeps: there is a "where have all developers left?" thread on tm^H^H^H^H^oh sorry :)11:35
andre__poke me with a stick and I see what I can do...11:36
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dnearyandre__, So - putting in a proposal for MeeGo track in Praha?12:36
andre__dneary, hmm? :)12:37
andre__refering to LinuxCon?12:37
dnearyandre__, Well, you're in .cz, so, yes12:37
andre__sorry, still a bit sleepy :)12:37
andre__hmm, must check deadlines, and then come up with something I could talk about. but basically I'm interested, yupp12:38
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ashwinipatankarany news about N9/N950 ??12:43
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thiagoashwinipatankar: there's no such device announced12:46
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thiagoso, no news12:46
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* alterego sighs12:46
ashwinipatankarthiago: wahts about the teasers and so much buzz on the net ??12:46
X-Fadeashwinipatankar: Keep an eye on Endgadget. You will learn news a lot faster there than here.12:47
andreizrohy all. I have a small problem related to OBS, but maybe you can help: I recently had to move my OBS machines to a new location, so the IP's changed. I've updated the configuration files, and now OBS works ok - workers do builds, I can checkout and update packages (by API), but when I try to commit a change (using API) I get a server time out. Any clues?12:47
thiagoashwinipatankar: rumours.12:47
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thiagoashwinipatankar: and given past track record, they had a hit rate of less than 50%.12:47
ashwinipatankarthiago: :(12:47
* thiago remembers all the discussions on what processor platform the Nokia MeeGo device will have.12:48
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Stskeepsit will have a quantum processor and kittens with lasers for eyes12:48
alteregoAnd it can turn into a submarine12:49
* thiago wants one of those12:49
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alteregoWe all want one :)12:49
luisbgwas Mx switched to an other toolkit or is UX still using Mx?12:50
RST38hIt will swap to the perforated tape.12:50
Stskeepsluisbg: netbook uses it but tablet uses qml12:50
thiagoluisbg: the netbook UX is using Mx (I think)12:50
RST38hSwapping to EMMC just wasn't good enough...12:50
thiagothe others use QML12:50
luisbgthiago, and Stskeeps, thanks for the info12:50
alteregoThe netbook UX uses gtk12:51
RST38hBTW, is IVI interface done entirely in QML now? How about MeegoTV?12:51
alteregoHandset is the only platform (1.1-1.2) that uses MeeGo Touch Framework.12:51
alterego1.3 will be all MeeGo UX12:51
luisbgalterego, so gtk + Mx, or just gtk?12:51
alteregoluisbg: afaik, netbook is just gtk12:52
alteregoThough it has Qt installed too, it's just the UX is Gtk+ based.12:52
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RST38hOne more time: IVI and MeegoTV seem to have most developed UXs nowadays. Are they using QML or something else?12:55
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alteregoRST38h: I think at least IVI is QML, MeeGo TV is either QML or they're migrating (from talking to people at the conference that is my impression).12:56
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RST38hAha =)12:57
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delacis there any convenient way to integrate Qt-application to the netbook toolbar?13:14
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* achipa listens to Putting Out the Fire with Gasoline while posting flamboyant content to the Qt5 feedback list13:33
Stskeepsare you trying to go out with a bang, or something?13:33
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user0possible to get remote access using the rescue Initrd?13:34
user0i tried yesterday13:34
user0but i cant seem to connect over ssh or telnet13:34
user0i can get networking working between the laptop and the n900 using it13:34
user0like i can ping it, but nothing else13:35
timophit answers to ping?13:35
user0but how can i get remote access?13:35
timophssh should work13:35
Stskeepsrescue initrd won't have ssh13:35
user0the recovery terminal is useless13:35
user0you cant tip commands13:36
Stskeepsalso, what rescue initrd?13:36
timophStskeeps: it's the thing we based our emmc installer on :)13:36
lcukachipa, which ML are you winning on?13:36
Stskeepsuser0: that doesn't have a telnetd i think13:36
StskeepsSage: do we have a telnetd on initrd?13:36
user0timoph : what port is the sshd running on ?13:36
SageStskeeps: I don't think so13:37
StskeepsSage: so why do we have usb networking? :P13:37
timophuser0: not actually sure that it has it after thinking about it a bit13:37
user0Stskeeps : exactly13:37
SageStskeeps: well, I used it from console to outside ;)13:37
Stskeepsuser0: anyway, you should be able to start a shell and manually start busybox telnetd13:37
Sagenot from outside to device :)13:38
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Stskeepsuser0: i believe13:38
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Stskeepsuser0: also, feel free to file bug reports on or send patches13:38
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user0i'd spend the day reporting bugs13:39
Stskeepssounds good13:39
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Stskeepsplease do :)13:39
user0i just want to get this thing workig atm13:39
Stskeepsthat's more likely to get things working, so13:39
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naquadi'm trying to build gnome-screesaver from sources, but it says: + %reconfigure --with-xscreensaverdir=/usr/share/xscreensaver/config --with-xscreensaverhackdir=/usr/libexec/xscreensaver --with-mit-screensaver=no /var/tmp/rpm-tmp.UfL1mE: line 28: fg: no job control - spec wasn't changed. broken srpm?13:39
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user0Stskeeps : so are you sure it has a telnetd ?13:41
Stskeepsuser0: not 100%, but open a shell with the physical keyboard and ./busybox13:41
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Stskeepsuser0: what are you trying to do anyway?13:41
user0echo root:$(grep -A 13 lock_code /dev/mtd1|tail -1):13:42
user0thas all i wana do13:42
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delacwhat is the best way to integrate Qt applications to the Meego netbook UX? Any way to make them as toolbar panels?13:44
Stskeepsokay, so you're trying to hack the lock_code and that's a tad suspicious ;) put that line on a sd card, mount it and sh it from the shell13:44
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user0thats not possible13:44
Stskeepssure it is13:44
user0i cant mount it13:45
user0i cant type stuff like / or . or - or numbers using the recovery terminal13:45
Stskeepsanyway, bbl13:45
Stskeeps(got a phonecall)13:45
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Stskeepsinitrd wasn't exactly made for hacking the lock code, but honestly, save yourself some trouble, flash uboot and boot meego from a microsd card instead13:46
Stskeepsmuch easier13:46
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Stskeepshas a sshd open13:47
user0i'll read about that13:47
Venemodelac, you will need to use the API for those panels13:49
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delacVenemo: any documents on that? or tutorials?13:51
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lcukStskeeps, accessing the rootfs is more involved than with the rescue initrd13:52
Venemodelac, you could look at the sources of the other panels13:52
delacVenemo: I think they are all gtk or clutter based...13:53
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Venemodelac, I meant, look at how they make themselves a meego panel13:53
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* user0 is lost13:54
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user0Stskeeps : where should is start ?13:54
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Venemodelac, I think you will need to use MplPanelClient -
user0give me the wiki pages i'll need to read to get what you had in mind done.13:56
user0found some guide regarding uboot being installed using the application manager , but thats not gona be useful13:57
user0since i dont have access to anything. the lock code is asked at boot13:57
delacVenemo: yes, but that seems to be either gtk or clutter based applications.13:58
Venemodelac, so make your own MplPanelClient subclass for Qt or use it directly for your app13:58
achipalcuk: as the title said, qt5-feedback13:59
delacVenemo: you think using that directly from othervise Qt based application would work nicely?13:59
Venemodelac, yes, I'm sure of it.14:00
Venemodelac, although you will definitely need to dig into the code of the existing implementations to see how it works14:00
lcukachipa, thanks, have signed up14:01
Venemodelac, at the time that API was designed (Moblin times), Qt was not yet considered14:01
lcukin a long distant time 1048 BQ14:02
Venemolcuk, great :)14:02
Venemolcuk, you could add your thoughts to my thoughts about lambdas in that list14:02
lcuknot really I cannot14:02
Venemowhy not?14:02
lcukbecause I didn't even know you were on the list14:03
lcukand lambdas remind me more of half-life than coding14:03
lcukI might know more with more coffee though14:04
Venemolcuk, from your link, I found this:
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lcukI know, I am reading it now14:05
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TheBootroois there a way to test the meego tablet ux directly on my stock Ubuntu 11.04 32bit  with Qt4.7.3 ?14:14
TheBootrooi can't achieve to compile it from gitorious there are too many crossing dependancies14:15
TheBootroocould you please tell me a quite simple method to get a running menu + panels + compositor + some simple apps (contacts, calendar and mail e.g.)14:15
lcukTheBootroo, then resolve the dependencies and it will work14:15
lcukor download the image and try it from there14:16
lcukthe meego ux is part of meego, it would be worrysome if it did not require bits of meego to build!14:16
TheBootroolcuk: i can't test image since i dont have atom neither intel graphics, i want only the qt/qml apps on my linux laptop14:18
TheBootrooand i can't find missing deps14:18
TheBootroolcuk: the only difference between meego and other linux are some qt made libs14:18
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TheBootrooso i would be able to get it run under ubuntu14:19
TheBootrooi want to load meego UX just like gnome or kde , from the gdm screen14:19
TheBootrooi know how to add it to gdm but it can't achieve compilation14:19
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TheBootroohow to dl all src packages from one command ? (apt is handling this very well : you ask for a src packages and it downloads it and all src deps, is there the same with RPM ? )14:20
TheBootrooi was thinking there could be a PPA with precompiled meego apps for ubuntu (directely in .DEB) but there is none (surprising... am i the first one wanting to awesome MeegO panels on a classic distro with all my usual programs ?)14:22
lcukno, afaik some folks from debian have been tinkering14:23
lcukask there to see how far they have gotten with meego ux components14:23
TheBootroothere is that :
TheBootroobut is this sufficient to run meego panels and menu ?14:24
lcukTheBootroo, speciffically which dependencies are missing14:25
TheBootrooi dont remember, a big number, so i get 'libmeegotouch', 'mthemedaemon', 'contextkit','libseaside' and a bunch of others but some didn't compiled because of missing others deps14:27
lcukhave you ever "ported" applications from outside ubuntu into ubuntu?14:27
TheBootrooyes, starting by maemo apps14:28
TheBootroowith maemo specific code14:28
user0is there a faster way than to get remote access ?14:29
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TheBootrooi've even created replacement qt classes for maemo's message box, stacked windows and notification banners....14:29
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user0i dont need meego installed i just need a remote shell14:29
user0or some recovery terminal that works14:29
alteregoThen why are you here?14:29
TheBootroolcuk: the   repos is no more updated14:30
timophuser0: well you need to boot something. Like Stskeeps said the easy way is to boot meego from sd (you can load the kernel without using uboot)14:30
lcukTheBootroo, ask around ubuntu if there are others working, normally porting whole ux will be bigger than porting individual apps14:30
lcukyou might find a team already working on it14:30
timophyou can find all the needed info to get it running from the wiki14:31
TheBootroobut i thought that OBS was made to produce different kinds of packages automatically, so why doesn't it build .deb packages of meego x86 packages ?14:31
StskeepsTheBootroo: because there's this thing called packaging?14:31
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timophit still needs the packaging script and afaik the community obs doesn't do debs atm14:32
TheBootroolcuk: "porting whole ux will be bigger than porting individual apps" : but we can't port only apps since they need the whole ux to run (i saw many meego only qml classes used in meego-panels E.G.)14:32
TheBootrooStskeeps: what do you mean ?14:32
StskeepsTheBootroo: as in manual work to make debian/ dirs is needed14:33
user0alterego : im here just to piss you off :P14:33
TheBootroothe basis info for .deb are the same than for .rpm14:33
TheBootrooStskeeps: true ?14:33
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Stskeepsyes, but dependancy names are different and a lot of small details14:33
Stskeepsit isn't 1:114:33
Stskeepsuser0: please behave then, we're trying to be helpful, so don't be lazy :)14:33
TheBootrooStskeeps: i didn't know : when i generate .deb package from qt project for my N900 it's wuite straitforward14:33
user0timoph : i was hoping the rescue Initrd  was the solution14:34
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TheBootrooStskeeps: qtcreator automatically generates enough information  to build a correct .deb package from a single .pro file14:35
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StskeepsTheBootroo: yes, but that only works for a subset14:35
TheBootrooStskeeps: i mean, qtcreator from Qt Nokia SDk14:35
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TheBootrooStskeeps: that's too bad14:35
TheBootrooi really want to use MeeGO UX but i don't have the right hardware14:35
* alterego sighs14:36
TheBootrooso at least if a qt apps running on my ubuntu box they will use existing graphics acceleration( nvidia 9600M GT)14:36
* Stskeeps looks around for a beer14:36
* TheBootroo gives Stskeeps a bear :p14:36
* lcuk runs to the bar and grabs a crateful14:36
lcukTheBootroo, it is understandable, go and find out how far the debian folks have gotten14:37
lcukyou might be asking questions already answered14:37
lcukyou can stop laughing alterego :P14:37
TheBootroolcuk: you mean debians guys from a regular debian channel or some special meego/debian channel ?14:38
lcukwhere is the package for qtcontacts import :P14:38
lcukTheBootroo, I don't know where thye hang out14:38
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lcukbut afaik there is a "meego on debian" project of some ilk14:38
alteregoIn my pub obs, still lacking the script.14:38
lcukbut since I am concentrating on meego on meego have not watched too much14:38
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alteregoI'm gonna rename the package so I can add the script to it making it maemo import specific.14:39
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user0wish i had my laptop with me today14:39
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user0all i have here at work is winxp14:39
TheBootroobut Stskeeps aren't you responsible of meego for N900 ? since that you must know how to build .deb packages from meego OBS ?14:39
lcukvery basic and you were talking about moving the mounting to somewhere else, I am at outstretched end of my knowledge here and hoping you can do the technical stuff :$14:40
gabrbeddiekku: good morning!14:40
TheBootrooeven if the method is hard, i'm developer and linux user i can use CLI, i just want instructions14:40
StskeepsTheBootroo: yes, and i don't have to do debian packaging in my work. it makes me really happy.14:40
user0i guess all this will have to wait untill im back at home :(14:40
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alteregolcuk: I'll have it done by the end of the day.14:40
user0stskeeps : do you recommend this ?14:40
lcukalterego, wonderful :$14:40
Stskeepsuser0: no, just use a microsd card and save yourself a lot of power14:40
Stskeepsand time14:40
user0none at hand14:41
Stskeepsthen you'll have to wait14:41
user0but that should work , no ?14:41
iekkugabrbedd, :D14:41
Stskeepsuser0: haven't tested it for ages14:41
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user0the results cant be as bad as using the rescue Initrd  :P14:42
TheBootrooStskeeps: where can i download an updated MeeGoDE for N900 with tablet UX ? if i can't test it on my desktop, maybe i can get some recent image for my n900,14:42
lcukfor the images themselves14:43
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TheBootrooStskeeps: you mean i know this page but i dont see the DE image link in it....14:44
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lcukdaily and weekly testing include n900-de handset and tablet builds14:44
TheBootroolcuk: each folder i look in for meego recent iamges doesn't contains tablet image and even some times no handset image only some log file or xml one14:45
lcukcurious because I just started downloading that a little bit ago14:46
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TheBootroolcuk: sry i checked just 4 days ago and the most recent i found was 24 may dated !14:47
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lcukwell 4 days ago would make it the 11th14:48
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lcukwhich surprisingly has an image from... the 11th14:48
lcukbut there were a few days at start of month14:49
TheBootroolcuk: maybe i didn't looked at the right place14:49
lcukwhere images were not made14:49
lcukyes, likely14:49
lcukmoral of story: there are n900 images for tablet build that you can check14:49
TheBootrooi looked into repos.meego.com14:49
lcukthe n900-community edition is not direct meego project14:50
TheBootroolcuk: however i really would like test it on my computer, biger and more powerfull14:50
lcukjust hold the n900 closer to your face, it gets much bigger14:50
TheBootroolcuk: you funny you know14:50
lcukand as far power, the n900 outperforms many other devices even today :)14:50
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TheBootroolcuk: n900 is powerful  for a phone, but terribly lacks RAM overall14:51
TheBootrooand nothing compares to a quad core computer in the phone class14:51
lcukbut quad core computer looks silly held to your ear14:51
alteregoYeah, Nokia should have learned from the 770 wrt RAM14:52
lcukTheBootroo, if I hear anything about the meego on debian/ubuntu I wll endeavour to remember14:52
TheBootrooi dont speak about phone, i really want tablet ux on a regular laptop, that i use fo music, web and photo14:52
lcukI added your point to my graffiti wall14:52
TheBootrooif you find some complete meego apps compilation guide, let me know, with all dependancies needed and were to find their last version14:53
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alteregoTheBootroo: shouldn't be too hard, the dependencies are all there and it's not like it depends on intel graphics hardware like the images.14:53
* RST38h yawns14:53
lcuki think that is something even the developers on meego ask ;)14:53
* RST38h yawns at the bootroo troll.14:54
lcukyou just have to dive into obs14:54
TheBootrooRST38h: which troll ?14:54
lcukRST38h, yawning because it is not you this time trolling :P14:54
TheBootrooRST38h: i don't troll, i just want to do something and i can't14:54
TheBootrooso i ask14:55
RST38hRather than endless argue on what mobile computing is, tell me how to pass arguments into the Android NativeActivity.14:55
RST38hlcuk: easily fixable, as you see :)14:55
TheBootrooRST38h: android is sh*t and saying that is a troll14:55
* lcuk grabs more beer14:56
RST38hSure, it is shit14:56
TheBootrooi ask because there are many guys more skilled than me, but unhopefully nobody has tried what i ask for, as usual, maybe i'm wanting too compilcated thing all the time14:56
RST38hSells millions of units though14:56
TheBootrooRST38h: most people on earth are stupid sheep, we all know that14:56
lcukdo not insult or generalise to most people.14:57
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TheBootrooi tried an Asus Transformer yesterday, great device but Android 3.1 ruins it, meego for tablets would be great, but that's too bad, its a nvidia platform :-(14:57
TheBootroolcuk: us here are not really 'most people'14:58
* RST38h is ok selling to stuid sheep14:58
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RST38hAs long as I get to shave 'em regularly, you know...14:58
* TheBootroo thinks selling to sheep is a very profitable business14:58
* TheBootroo don't want to be shaved14:59
RST38hlcuk: See, how lively it becomes when I have to wait for testing to complete?14:59
lcukit was lively before you arrived14:59
* TheBootroo lols14:59
lcukwhat are you testing?14:59
RST38hNah, it was the same newbie fanboy shit, boring15:00
RST38hlcuk: code15:00
* TheBootroo hints RST38h to stay polite15:00
lcukmanly code?15:00
lcuklike ardiuno controlled beer dispensing robot control code?15:01
RST38hlcuk: Oh, you can't imagine... =(15:01
TheBootroolcuk: great15:01
TheBootrooit would be15:01
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lcukin qml is the text/memo/html box actually a qml component?15:02
lcukor are they normal qwidgets still?15:02
TheBootroolcuk: i dont use QMl15:02
lcukwell thankfully I wasn't asking you :P15:03
TheBootrooonly QWidget + QCss or QGraphicsItem15:03
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TheBootroolcuk: i know i know15:03
TheBootroolcuk: -_-15:03
alteregolcuk: not sure. Though they probably exist in 4.815:03
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alterego(for scene graph)15:03
lcukwondering because I did some playing outside qt with how to make a memobox from scratch15:04
lcukusing only rectangles and containers initially15:04
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RST38hlcuk: Afaik, it HAS to be a component15:04
lcukRST38h, for what reason?15:05
RST38hlcuk: Whether it is a proper one or a qwidget container is a different thing15:05
alteregoYeah, I'm pretty sure the Text component is a component and editors inherit from it.15:05
RST38hlcuk: semantics?15:05
lcukRST38h, you mean a native coded component rather than a pure qml element15:05
RST38hlcuk: the first15:05
lcukit was like Microsoft still using native elements in .net15:06
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lcukRST38h, is that just for brevity or do you think it has been attempted?15:08
RST38hlcuk: I do not really know15:09
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RST38hLet me see if I can find the source code15:09
lcukRST38h, no need15:09
lcukwas just idle banter15:09
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alteregolcuk: seems to still use QTextDocument15:12
RST38hWould be unusual if it didn't...15:13
lcukI was doing some tinkering and was hoping for it to be native qml15:13
TheBootroolcuk: AFAIK QML are coded using C++/Qt4 classes15:13
lcukwell RST38h
TheBootrooonly display and use is done via QML15:13
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alteregoTheBootroo: nope :P15:14
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TheBootrooQML needs a Qt/C++ launcher/interpreter15:14
alteregoTheBootroo: sorry, misinterpreted classes as QWidgets15:14
RST38hlcuk: Lemme guess, you continue reqwriting the complete UX stack in liqbase? =)15:14
TheBootrooalterego: why not ? i don't know Javascript that could launch itself, it needs a engine15:15
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lcukwhat would happen if you could make a .qml file +x executable and get linux itself to do the bootstraping15:15
TheBootrooso QtCore classes and QGraphics one too are used by QML15:15
alteregoYes, QML is written in Qt/C++, but we're talking about whether it uses QWidgets for some display components, which it shouldn't15:15
lcukRST38h, was testing ideas and was rather hoping for a qml variant15:15
alteregolcuk: you can do that.15:15
alteregobut qmlviewer is not recommended, which would be how you bootstrap it.15:16
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gabrbeddali1234: zypper bug -- could not reproduce.15:17
gabrbeddali1234: rpmbuild ~/rpmbuild/SPECS/kernel.spec -- I didn't get your exact results, but I got something similar.15:17
alteregolcuk: I might be wrong, seems it uses QPainter, might use text document for constants and layout info/engine.15:17
gabrbeddali1234: I'll go back and follow your steps to the "t" and comment on the bug report.15:18
lcukRST38h, I have certain elements inside qt15:18
lcukjust when I come across a roadblock in knowledge of qt I dive back into my liqbase code garden and have a go there15:18
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gabrbeddlcuk: alterego: Has anyone tried to put a shebang line in a QML file?16:07
alteregogabrbedd: no, but it'll fail, because # isn't a comment16:07
alteregoYou could make one like: //!/usr/bin/qmlviewer16:08
alteregoBut it's probably best to use the extension16:08
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thiagothe program that loads the qml file (the one listed in the shebang line) could strip out the first line16:09
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alteregosure, still think binfmt is better ..16:10
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* gabrbedd reads about binfmt16:20
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gabrbeddhm.  I didn't know that existed.16:23
alteregoIt's what makes qemu work in chroots16:27
alteregoAnd other magic16:27
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alteregoscratchbox uses it, obs uses it, etc.16:27
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lcukgabrbedd, the syntax in c/c++ files does not allow it?16:38
lcukthough on similar, I did find out last night16:38
lcukthat http://url   url syntax *IS* valid within c code16:39
lcukafter I mistakenly pasted a link within some source16:39
gabrbeddlcuk: Are we talking C/C++ or javascript?16:40
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lcukgabrbedd, my observation was c16:40
lcuki had middle clicked a youtube link into middle of some source16:41
lcukand only noticed when I was checking git diffs16:41
lcukte code compiled and built happily16:41
lcukbecause http: is a goto jump point thingy16:41
lcukand //   is a comment16:41
gabrbeddlcuk: AFAIK, they're right... #! is not a comment... so it would need special //! support from bash.16:41
gabrbeddHaha... That's true. :-)16:41
lcukwhich is tricky16:41
lcukI tried similar within the meego wiki the other day16:42
gabrbeddYou should keep that handy for an the IOCCC16:42
gabrbeddInternation Obfuscated C Code Contest16:42
lcukgabrbedd, minor curiosity rather than odd c16:43
lcukmy code itself is obfuscated qml ;)16:43
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fiferboyYay, but 18557 is fixed in the latest tablet image17:00
fiferboybug 18557, rather17:00
MeeGoBotBug cri, High, ---, chengwei.yang, RELE FIXED, Installation freezes during live image copy17:00
lcuknice fiferboy17:01
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fiferboyUI revamp seems to be in progress17:02
fiferboyLooks nice, but functionality way down17:03
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berndhsah, who needs functionality when you have shine17:04
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fiferboyberndhs: True, I'll just enjoy the warm glow of the updated theme :)17:06
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lcukfiferboy, which image are you using (url link for those >> )17:07
* lcuk waiting for dd17:08
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fiferboyI just bookmarked the "latest" folder and check for new versions17:09
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lcukachipa, i have seen the demos of qml based game: samegame17:27
lcuk10*16 grid of particles17:28
lcukso not taking by any means17:28
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lcukbut something people would routinely play on the bus to/from work for instance17:28
lcuki wonder how to produce a longevity graph17:28
lcukto see how this could be optimised so people can play longer17:29
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lcukfancy pants animations are one thing, but keeping folks entertained for whole journey is another17:29
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achipalcuk: oookay... ?17:33
alteregoDidn't even see you leave :P17:33
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lcukachipa, just pondering and voicing really17:33
lcuksamegame is something that can be tested because it is in every os17:34
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fiferboyCan any point me to an article or documentation on how I can make my Qt program look "native" on handset, netbook, tablet, etc18:06
fiferboyMy plain Qt program looks okay on desktop and netbook, but handset and tablet UX do not fit in with the theme18:07
berndhsfiferboy: its not just the theme, its the whole UX18:07
TSCHAKeeethis is the big reason that Qt says to go Qt Quick now18:08
TSCHAKeeeso that QML can be made for different UX.18:08
berndhsfiferboy: the idea is that you "only" replace the QML part18:08
alteregoMy Qt app looks awesome under handset18:08
alteregoBut it renders itself, doesn't use any widgets, all custom18:08
fiferboySo first off that would mean porting my UI to QML away from QWidgets?18:08
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alteregoSo it looks the same on anything, with the exception of fonts.18:09
fiferboyAnd then there would be (potential) changes to the QML based on the UX18:09
berndhsright, then you do your own branding, and forget the theme :)18:09
fiferboyI guess this is the whole Qt Components vs MeeGo Components18:09
alteregoThat's what I do for apps where it makes sense.18:09
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alteregoIf you're writing an app that say, extends the functionality of the system and is meant as an integration or augmentation, theming is the way to go. But self contained apps, games, etc. Should have their own custom Ux imo18:10
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berndhsright, it there is more commonality in the app across verticals, it makes more sense to app-brand it18:11
fiferboyalterego: I would prefer to avoid a custom UX (mostly due to my design ineptitude)18:11
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alteregofiferboy: :)18:11
fiferboyBut for all the "official" meego UX platforms I could use MeeGo UX Components?18:11
alteregofiferboy: well, I suppose it does depend on your artistic talents and or whether you have UX designers.18:12
alteregofiferboy: in 1.3 meego ux components should be everywhere.18:12
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fiferboyalterego: But not for QWidget-derived UI?18:13
gabrbeddfiferboy: if the components that you need are in the MeeGo Compliance spec... then you'll need to provide your own... e.g. a private copy of the Qt labs desktop components.18:13
alteregofiferboy: qwidget is on it's way to deprecation.18:13
fiferboyGah, I guess it is time to finally learn QML :)18:14
alteregogabrbedd: not in I'm guessing?18:14
TSCHAKeeeit will be gone sometime after Qt 518:14
berndhsQML is not hard, just frustrating at times :)18:14
alteregoWe really need more community involvement wrt meego ux components, real use cases from real app developers.18:14
fiferboyI have made a couple of half-hearted attempts at porting simple GUI apps to QML18:14
berndhsI tried to build qt5 yesterday, still has all kinds of widgets18:14
TSCHAKeeeand programmers really need to learn UI design18:15
alteregoberndhs: sure, but they're "deprecated" ;)18:15
TSCHAKeeeif I have to bitch slap it into each and every one of them18:15
gabrbeddalterego: I'm sure some standard components lib will be part of Qt /eventually/18:15
* CosmoHill did a course in UI design18:15
CosmoHilldidn't do that well18:15
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alteregogabrbedd: definitely, qt-components is about that.18:15
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TSCHAKeeeCosmoHill: don't make any apps users will use.18:15
fiferboyTSCHAKeee: I actually have a book called "Universal Principles of Desgin" sitting beside me right now18:15
gabrbeddalterego: And I wouldn't be surprised if meego ux comp's were part of 1.3 Core.18:15
CosmoHillif I keep up my design they won't use them18:16
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berndhsqwidgets are still ok for apps with just 1 big button18:16
TSCHAKeeeCosmoHill: if all else fails. study and copy.18:16
CosmoHillfork and fix18:17
TSCHAKeeeplease for the love of god18:17
berndhsyes then file a patent on what you copied18:17
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TSCHAKeeeprogrammers need to learn to make UIs that look okay.18:17
fiferboyTSCHAKeee: Or programmers need to work with a designer to make their UIs look okay18:17
TSCHAKeeeeither or18:18
TSCHAKeeebut most don't have that option.18:18
* TSCHAKeee is both programmer and designer in one.18:18
berndhsactually programmers need to learn to make UIs that look ok, artists need to learn to make UIs that function18:18
CosmoHilllast website I got paid to do I did the programming and made is so the designer could just add his CSS sheet18:18
CosmoHillTSCHAKeee: either you're good or you're a rather large person18:19
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berndhshey, large persons can be competent too18:19
TSCHAKeeeCosmoHill: I grew up in a family of both artists and engineers.18:19
CosmoHilltbh I was expecting you to say midgets for some reason18:19
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* CosmoHill needs to stop watching kids tv18:24
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fiferboyAre meego ux components available in 1.2? Or
alteregoThey're in N900 CE18:29
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gabrbeddfiferboy: also for Tablet UX, they're in there.  I don't think they're in Netbook.18:32
fiferboyCool, Tablet UX and N900 CE will be mostly what I am testing on18:32
npmmost designers take properly working programs and turn them into some kind of altar to their ego, rather than being concerned about the user actually getting stuff done...18:33
fiferboyThe QWidget version is themed properly on Netbook18:33
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alteregonpm: was that a remark on my skillz :P18:33
npmor they design the application into failure from the get-go18:33
npmwell maybe you're not one of the designers i've worked with18:34
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npme.g. turning a UI with proper relative layouts, all based on calculating sizes of components w/ resolution independence... all gone and replaced with pixel sizes18:35
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npmi want a widget set that puts the designer inside the widgets, and makes them do the right thing.18:35
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npmalso, if there's a particular look to a given handset, then i don't want "design" i want it to look like all the other apps on that handset18:36
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TSCHAKeeenpm: you only see this from your perspective18:36
TSCHAKeeethis is the problem18:36
TSCHAKeeeprogrammers lack any and all aesthetic sense18:36
npmactually, the problem  is designers see from their perspective too18:36
TSCHAKeeeand lack the ability to even remotely understand it18:37
TSCHAKeeeone pixel18:37
TSCHAKeeea difference18:37
npmand there really shouldn't be designers or programmers. if you're doing an app, you should be both18:37
npmno, one millimeter makes a difference.18:37
npmone pixel can be ten on a different platform18:38
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lcuknpm, symbiosis.18:39
npmi was just as happy with square buttons too..., esp   ones that you could clearly tell when they were clicked18:39
lcukdesigner and developer working harmoniously as a team18:39
npmbut then a "designer" gets through with it, and it becomes "art" and not very functional as a button18:39
lcukbut the developer should know the limits available18:39
lcukas should the designer - designing to capabilities is something many miss18:40
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lcuknpm buttons are more tricky actually18:40
maligorI vote for one pixel checkered buttons, with accurate click tracking18:40
lcuknow with touch ui, your finger itself covers the button18:40
lcukmore important than that though is icons vs names18:40
npmand i just love watching my dad or son pecking away at their iphones... if that's the pinnacle of design... fail...18:40
lcukwall of icons is confusing18:41
lcukmy real wall has real things on it18:41
maligorthe pinnacle of design is when you have a apple chip embedded in your brain18:41
lcukusing an iphone is like using an advent calendar18:41
lcuk(little door you have to open per day)18:41
npmmri's of apple fanboys seeing apple icon similar response as devoutly religious w/ crucifix18:42
npmthus maligor's comment is true18:42
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npmand so is lcuk's advent calendar18:43
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lcukyou can see the contents like a real calendar18:43
maligorI guess Apple is the real american religion18:43
lcukyou do not need to open each day to know what it contains :)18:44
npmbeats talking salamanders18:44
maligorconsumerism combined with religious overtones18:44
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lcukyou might have to get closer to read all of it, but it is exactly as written18:44
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npmlcuk: isn't that basically w7's boxes idea?18:47
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mikhashaving issues instaling from the latest tablet ux images ...18:48
lcuknpm, sigh18:48
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lcukwindows boxes idea is over 2 years later than mine18:48
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mikhasit just hangs with a systemd-fsck (well. that's the last line at least)18:49
npmwell apple's finally paying up for ideas they've stolen from nokia...18:49
mikhasanyone else?18:49
npmso you never know what the future can bring lcuk18:49
lcuknpm, I have to wonder whether employers I have had over the time will be patenting ideas in my code done at nighttimes18:49
mikhas(been using meego-tablet-ia32-pinetrail-
ali1234has anyone been watching the QML app reviews by all about symbian?18:50
npm(in this case, i think MS will just acquire their way out of  it :-/ )18:50
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lcukif they do, good thing if it is fair offer18:50
npmi bet they're slapping themselves in the head right now about the nokia apple patent deal right now18:50
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ali1234those apps are OK but they all suffer from the same problem:18:51
ali1234they all look completely different and the graphical quality is extremely variable18:51
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lcuknpm, I did see that Nokia offers patening help18:53
lcukbut since my work takes a number of years and different employers is tricky18:53
lcukand melts my head completely to consider18:53
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npmGnu or LF ought to have a open-source patenting arm funded by going after closed source that steals their ideas18:53
Stskeepsyeah, and where is GNOME taking their primary inspiration from? ..18:54
lcuki see mostly cloning of other apps in open source18:54
npmand they'd then force the losers to open source their closed source software in defeat18:54
lcukit is rare to see such innovation that I normally play with18:54
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Jaffaali1234: Qt Components should help in the Symbian case18:55
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ali1234that's what i keep hearing18:56
lcukStskeeps, I could say that same about the current wayland screenshots from you18:56
Stskeepssimpsons did it18:56
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npmi think it's the other way around... closed source clones ideas from the research community and makes them "production".. often the work of the research community is and was open even before open source18:57
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npmXerox PARC's Alto -> Macintosh is good example18:57
npmi used an Alto, it was much better :-)18:57
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maligorI think I'll patent the idea of drawing an image by copying pixels from one buffer into another18:58
ali1234personally i'm not interested in innovation if it comes at the cost of my ability to fix problems that i encounter when the vendor refuses to help18:58
npmfor example, 10-20 years ago, SigCHI was all about camera tracking UI's... now they're in games from MS18:59
timophwhere have I heard that before18:59
timophah. RMS :)18:59
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maligor10-20 years ago the hardware required for camera tracking was really expensive19:00
maligorprobably used color coded gloves or something19:01
npmyep. but the ideas were all openly published --
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npmthen again perhaps that's cuz microsoft hired him :-)19:03
ali1234all patents are openly published19:03
ali1234you do know that the whole mocap field is one of the most heavily patented areas of CS right?19:03
npmi was talking about using the patent system for GNU purposes in the same way that the copyright system has been used.19:03
mikhasseeems that the tablet UX live image, when you select install-only, doesn't mount the root system properly19:03
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npmif the patent holder insisted on open source, they could force a settlement where the patent violation is treated like a GPL violation....19:05
fiferboymikhas: the branch had that problem until the build from 2011061419:05
ali1234yeah the only small problem with that is that FOSS projects don't hold any patents19:05
fiferboymikhas: Does it sound the same as bug 18557?19:05
MeeGoBotBug cri, High, ---, chengwei.yang, RELE FIXED, Installation freezes during live image copy19:05
gabrbeddnpm: Problem is that patents typically cost US $5k minimum... and that only covers the US.  In contrast, getting a copyright is free.19:06
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ali1234because everything they write was patented by researchers 20 years before19:06
npmyep, which is why the foundation would need to bootstrap itself first by forcing some payment from violators19:06
npmuntil it had a large enough patent portfolio to trade with the big boys19:06
gabrbeddnpm: So... people plunk down $10k on a software patent so that we can.... stick it to the man?19:07
ali1234that makes no sense19:07
gabrbeddNot a very good ROI.19:07
khertanHum ... i can't update meego or install app on a fresh netbook install ! I think i ve found the bug !
npmnot stick it to the man. play on the same playing field19:07
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mikhasfiferboy, no different19:11
mikhasI dont even get to see any UI19:11
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fiferboymikhas: I don't have any experience installing the 1.2.80 branch19:13
lcuknpm, then get them talking with my employers over the period I wrote liqbase because i have a whole suite of innovations :)19:13
* lcuk can write c code but cannot write patent code19:13
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gabrbeddlcuk: In the US, you have to apply for a patent within 1 year of your first public disclosure of the invention.19:14
lcukgabrbedd, so I have until February next year then19:14
gabrbeddlcuk: And some countries don't even allow that.19:15
lcukfor something I wrote years ago but did not make use of19:15
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* lcuk uploaded sketchfonts whilst at fosdem19:18
mikhasfiferboy, tablet UX images are just plain broken19:19
npm "Method and apparatus for managing windows" from Apple. references yours truly19:19
mikhasyou dont even get a VKB19:20
mikhasuxlauncher doesnt launch for install-only19:20
mikhaswindows key is not working19:20
npmmaybe that's why the tablet UX doesn't have any managed windows. apple patented it :-)19:20
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npmand then there's "Intelligent Scrolling"
npmand another on drag and drop. pretty lame.19:21
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Bostikwe're seeing the fourth wave of recurring patent ideas here19:22
Bostikoriginally it was "do X"19:22
Bostikthen it was "automate X"19:22
SpeedEvil'automate x in a mobile'19:23
Bostikin the 80's it became "do X with a computer"19:23
lcuknpm, find me a patent for sending and recieving messages and presenting as handwritten notes.  ie full circle back to original telegrams.19:23
Bostikand now we're seeing "..on a mobile device"19:23
lcukwhich is what sketchfonts if fully implemented would do.19:23
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npmlcuk: the fax machine ? :-)19:23
lcukI had a lovely chat with one of the telecomms engineers at the museum of science and industry19:23
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lcuknpm go for it19:24
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fiferboymikhas: Recent Tablet UX in look to be going through a transition too19:25
npmfiferboy mikhas -- see end of for suggestions on making tablet UX better19:25
fiferboyVKB doesn't input, setting dialog layout completely broken, missing images for lockscreen and panel19:25
npmaka "zypper in" and reboot19:25
mikhasnpm, *tablet* requires GTK+ input context?19:26
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mikhasthat was supposed for netbooks only19:26
npmapparently... seems to give me input in progs i need input in... qt ones seem to have it19:27
Stskeepsauke: what happens to a process's ioprio when x-moblin-priority isn't set?19:27
lcuknpm, the description by aniello was hand typing.  typing using your own handwriting :)19:27
pebcaktablet ux images work fine for me19:27
mikhasnpm, well then ... thanks for our architect who rejected this very package to be part of MeeGo 1.219:27
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npmsounds like a bug report should be filed19:28
MeeGoBotBug 14374 nor, Medium, ---, x2rich, RELE FIXED, Virtual keyboard does not work in Gtk+ based applications19:29
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npmi just work around for now, and hope for the future. not sure why that's sched'd for 1.3 when it ought to be in a 1.2 update19:30
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mikhasfiferboy, do you know a last good tablet UX image then?19:30
mikhasnpm, dont ask such difficult questions ;-)19:30
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npm shows that the vkb in gnome is not w/o it's issues19:31
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npmbut at least i can run roxterm and have a vkb to kill processes, even if it's "blind" because you end up typing behind the vjb19:31
lcukis there a c to patent converter?19:32
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* CosmoHill grumbles cos his program ignored the CFLAGS and is displaying errors19:36
mikhasStskeeps, why is there no ?19:37
fiferboymikhas: 20110529 for
mikhaslike we had for 1.219:37
berndhslcuk: file a FEA request in bugzilla19:37
mikhasfiferboy, thanks19:37
lcukberndhs, lol19:37
lcukI would rather just get on and make lots of products but it seems nobody know how to become a vendor19:37
berndhsit would be a useful, income-generating feature19:38
* lcuk would try and direct folks and be a vendor 19:38
Stskeepsmikhas: i'm not in RE, ask meego-releases@19:38
lcukI just want to be able to buy real wall calendar to install in my mums house19:38
lcukshe would be even more proud of me when I accomplish that :)19:38
mikhasoh, I was under the impression you were19:38
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mikhasand no, I am subscribed to enough ML's already ...19:39
berndhsmy mom was plenty prpoud of me, doesn't do anything for steady income :)19:39
mikhaswhy do I always need to subscribe to a ML in MeeGo, even if I only want to ask a single question, sigh19:39
berndhsmikhas: another FEA, generate a new ML for every new question19:40
mikhasberndhs, oh you ...19:40
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lcukberndhs, hence the vendor part - putting heavy work into trying to ensure that meego can be used for such purposes19:41
lcukthen if I get that organised can sell in bulk19:41
lcukand make plenty of money :)19:41
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berndhsshipping is where it's at, not production19:42
lcukvery far off topic and it is tea time anyway, bbl19:42
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fiferboyIs there any way to work around the problems installing MeeGo SDK on 11.04?20:13
andre__what is 11.04? is that an Ubuntu number?20:14
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fiferboyandre__: Yes, sorry.  Ubuntu 11.0420:15
lcukfiferboy, a better thing would be to say what errors it has?20:15
andre__so what are the problems? is there a bug report?20:15
fiferboyAh, I see there is a bug report.  Bug 1688420:16
MeeGoBotBug nor, High, ---, max.a.yu, NEW, installer does not work on Ubuntu 11.0420:16
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fiferboyAdd support middle of July :|20:16
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fiferboyLooks like it is repository issues20:18
lcukevening jukkaeklund \o20:20
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lcukfiferboy, you could try installing a reasonable OS to do sdk work20:20
lcuklike meego :)20:20
jukkaeklundlcuk, hi there20:21
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fiferboylcuk: MeeGo isn't listed as a supported OS for the SDK :)20:21
lcuk:O RLY?20:24
fiferboylcuk: I guess because it isn't listed doesn't mean it won't work20:25
lcukI know the qa guys run the test cases there20:25
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lcukbut meego netbook is usually smallish screen - unless I plug it into my monitor20:26
lcukthe ideapad runs at 1920*1080 or whatever there20:26
fiferboyI was considering installing it on the Netbook UX, I don't see why it wouldn't work20:27
lcukit would make it a sensible thing then20:27
lcukusing meego to build more meego20:27
dnearyAnyone know if there's a general announce list for people announcing releases of Qt software?20:27
dnearySomething Trolltech uses to keep track of software & app authors can use to get the word out?20:28
dneary'twould be nice20:28
alteregodneary: ml maybe?20:28
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alteregoAnd their blog I'd imagine20:28
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alteregoOh qt apps20:28
alteregoThere is the qt apps site.20:28
alteregoDon't think it's too official.20:29
fiferboyHmm, installing the older version of the SDK with a work around seems to be uninstalling most of my Ubuntu desktop...20:29
dnearyalterego, I found a forum on qtcenter20:29
lcukdneary, any decent apps we can put onto the n900-de ?20:29
lcukor are most apps now aiming for bigger heavy hardware?20:30
* alterego still needs a simple idea for a "world changing" app for this weekends hactivate20:30
alteregoI hope they give out goodie bags,20:31
* alterego really wants a qt enabled N820:31
dnearylcuk, Seems to be mostly a support forum rather than app announcements20:31
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lcukdneary, according to my (very random) research, the best qt app is qonsole or whatever the console it20:32
dnearylcuk, Do you have examples of community developed apps in MeeGo core?20:33
dnearyThat would be really good20:33
dnearyI know people talk about Peregrine20:33
dnearyAnd the dialer20:33
dnearyBut isn't it Shane Bryan that's doing the dialler?20:33
lcukthere is the meego ITP20:33
lcukwhich lists some/all the apps put forwards20:33
lcukone of the better qt apps in terms of delivering o nthe qt promise is Venemo's Puzzle-master20:34
lcukwhich is now available on the 23842387423265234 operating systems qt supports20:34
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Jaffadneary: Shane Bryan is managing the dialler, but the current QML version is alterego20:35
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lcukJaffa, qml dialer is n900-ce at this time, it is not in core as far as I know20:36
Stskeepswhen transformed to meego-ux-components, maybe20:36
andre__garrr.... Bugzilla, where you can click and do something that you don't understand, like mass-moving some reports to the Security product for no reason whatsoever, just to make those reports inaccessible.20:36
* lcuk may be wrong20:36
* andre__ needs tranquilizers20:36
Stskeepsandre__: why did i just get a flashback of you running in a jungle being hunted by people with tranquilizer guns?20:37
dnearyJaffa, OK20:37
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andre__Stskeeps: which one of our LSD trips was that one again?20:38
Stskeepsandre__: good question :P20:38
lcukMeeGo SF 2011 was not san fran20:38
lcukit was MeeGo Safari 2011!20:38
Stskeepslcuk: you know, that would explain the keynote a lot beter..20:38
Jaffalcuk: QML branch of dialler was merged to trunk just before the conference, IIRC20:39
* lcuk will try and deliver a short talk this weekend20:39
lcukJaffa, ask alterego he will know20:39
lcukwe do not have to IIRC ;)20:39
Jaffalcuk: I meant the timing is IIRC. I quite clearly remember the announcement about it becoming the main MeeGo dialler :-p20:40
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lcukJaffa, merged but still remaining as MTF for now20:42
lcukthe QML dialer does not yet count for all required feature tests20:43
lcukso people with those images based on master will not see qml20:43
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Jaffalcuk: ? The branch has been merged to the trunk.20:46
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lcukJaffa, read the proceeding email from that 2 mail thread ;)20:47
lcuk2. The UI is now a runtime (and compile time) selectible option:20:48
lcuk   QML UI:20:48
lcuk     $ /usr/bin/dialer -ux meego-ux-components20:48
lcuk   MTF UI:20:48
lcuk     $ /usr/bin/dialer -ux meegotouch20:48
lcuk   The default will remain "meegotouch" (MTF) for now, until we draw20:48
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lcuk   closer to Feature equivalence20:48
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MohammadAGJaffa, lcuk the QML dialer seems default for me20:48
lcuknote the sentence at the foot20:48
lcukbut of course I might be wrong20:48
* lcuk wonders how you can tell if something is qml or not by looking20:50
jukkaeklundQML dialer UI is the master in meego dialer, yes20:50
jukkaeklundhas been for s few weeks20:51
lcukjukkaeklund, on the n900-de or trunk for meego images?20:51
jukkaeklunda few20:51
jukkaeklundlcuk, master as in meego gitorious20:51
jukkaeklundso trunk20:51
lcukjukkaeklund, that email from sabotage was only a few weeks ago saying that, yes qml dialer is there, but that the MTFone was being used still?20:52
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sabotagelcuk: the "MTF" UI is still the default in git master branch20:54
jukkaeklundah ok20:54
sabotagebut will likely be changing that this week20:54
sabotagejukkaeklund and lcuk: you are both correct20:54
sabotagethe current master has *both* QML and MTF ui versions20:55
sabotagebut it's CLI selectable20:55
jukkaeklundeven better :)20:55
sabotagetoday, the default (no CLI options given) is to use MTF ui20:56
sabotagelater (this week) the default will be QML20:56
* lcuk slides beers all round since we were all on the right track20:56
sabotagethen I will start gutting the MTF bits20:56
sabotagebut it's a bit complicated due to also trying to move to libofono-qt at the same time20:57
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timophwhat's the last tablet image that actually installs?21:07
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timophwith recent images the installer never finishes it's thing21:09
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alteregoBut note in my DE deliverables, I compile time default QML UX21:16
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alteregoMTF is then selectable via command line or gconf.21:16
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alteregoBut trunk dialer defaults to MTF, my CE package from trunk defaults to QML21:16
npmtimoph -- maybe it's fixed in latest?
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npmi'm updating now...21:17
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npmbut not by "image install" which is kinda lame, if you've already got meego running21:17
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npm315 packages to upgrade, 3 to downgrade, 1 to change vendor, 1 to change arch.21:19
CosmoHillwhat's the name of the terminal in MeeGo?21:19
npm'zypper info gnome-terminal'21:20
CosmoHillthank you21:20
CosmoHillnow I can copy and paste from chromium to gnome-terminal in TWM21:20
npmnow why is that claimed to be in package 'non-oss' ??21:20
npmbecause i left out "non" in the non-oss.repo file21:21
npmthanks for catching my error :-)21:21
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npmi'm not even sure why non-oss is in there. is there anything used from it on the ExoPC tablet?21:22
fiferboynpm: What version are you updating from?21:24
npmtrunk of last week21:24
fiferboynpm: branch?21:24
fiferboyWhenever I try doing a command-line upgrade it ends up bailing in the middle and leaving the system unusable21:25
npmwhy is that a mistake?21:25
npmwell i check before i reboot with an init 3 ; init 521:25
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fiferboyFor me it seems to update the rpm libraries, bails the update, and won't execute any zypper commands after that21:26
npmi do a bunch of voodoo first21:26
fiferboynpm: Ooo, what is your voodoo?21:26
gabrbeddfiferboy: If you're doing massive upgrades... yeah, I've found that to happen.21:27
npmsudo zypper clean --all21:27
npmsudo zypper --gpg-auto-import-keys refresh21:27
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gabrbeddfiferboy: But usually after a reboot I can simply fire off `zypper dup` and it'll pick up where it left off.21:27
fiferboygabrbedd: I usually just do a clean install, but the installer was broken for a couple weeks21:27
npmsudo zypper dup --from 'MeeGo:1.2:non-oss (MeeGo_1.2)' --from 'MeeGo:1.2:oss (standard)' --from 'adobe'21:27
* fiferboy writes down zypper voodoo21:28
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gabrbeddfiferboy: I do both.  If you can't continue after a reboot that's major bad.  If you can, that's normal juju.21:28
npm sudo rm -f /etc/prelink.cache ; sudo /etc/cron.daily/prelink ; sudo rm -f /etc/readahead.packed ; sudo /etc/init.d/sreadahead-pack start21:28
npmyou may not need all the args spelled out like i have, but i got and i don't want fedora interfering w/ my updates21:29
fiferboynpm: Thanks, that looks helpful21:30
npmi'm running my 'post upgrade' script which does the prelink/readahead whackage21:31
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* npm plays as background music21:35
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npmit survived init 3 ; init 5, though scary for a while because it took much longer to launch than normal21:38
fiferboynpm: Does your "Settings" program look right?21:40
lcukquestion: wat constitues an "app"21:41
lcukcould I begin live uploading new apps as fast I draw them?21:41
lcukcomplete full app - designed to re-render what I draw here21:41
lcukinstaller and app icon and everything21:41
lcuk+typing fixes21:41
npmsettings works21:42
fiferboyThe main settings screen looks messed up for my new install of 2011061421:44
npmwell it's messed up in that the toplevel wastes space and doesn't tell you there's stuff below general21:45
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npmbut in it's simplistic looking form, it seems ok21:45
fiferboyOk.  My top level has all the entries printed overtop of each other and half off the top of the screen21:46
npmwhen you did your upgrades, did you check for rpmnew files, and integrate them?21:47
fiferboynpm: I just did an install with the 20110614 image21:48
npmoh a fresh install? can't help you there.21:48
npmthe last fresh install on this tablet was at meego conf at intel booth21:49
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fiferboyI'll try the next image before I get too worried.  It looks like things were caught in the middle of a transition21:49
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npmwell it rebooted ok and seems to work, perhaps a little better22:00
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npmactually, a lot better :-)22:04
fiferboynpm: Does the interface seem to be updated? Slightly different theme and graphics?22:05
npmthat happened on the first update22:06
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fiferboyYeah, I knew it happened sometime in June I just wasn't sure when :)22:07
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blindfishhey guys, has someone tried the latest meego-builds on a wetab / exopc? i don't get them installed22:08
npmsee above22:08
npmyes. worksforme22:08
fiferboyblindfish: Recent builds had a bug with the installer until today22:09
fiferboyLatest image installs properly22:09
blindfishooh, thank you ;)22:09
blindfishthen i guess i have to try it22:09
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blindfishuhmm ... the 1.2.80-images were the stable-ones, right?22:11
fiferboyblindfish: No, those are the 1.3 devel images22:11
fiferboy1.2.0.90 are the 1.2.1 devel images22:12
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blindfishokay, thanks ;)22:13
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CosmoHillare there any AMD developers in here?22:35
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paroneayeaanyone try running ?23:12
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lcukparoneayea, I guess some people around meego have else hte page would not exist23:55
paroneayealcuk: :)23:55
lcukif you want to send me a nook over I will give it a try23:56
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lcukVenemo_, :)23:59
lcukonce again23:59
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