IRC log of #meego for Monday, 2011-04-11

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DawnFosterVenemo: lcuk is OK - talked to him yesterday. He's taking a break from IRC to prep the house for the new baby due in a couple months & squeeze in one more vacation before it's due :)00:52
VenemoDawnFoster, ok, that's good to hear. I was seriously afraid that he is hurt or something00:52
CosmoHillDawnFoster: thanks for the update00:52
VenemoDawnFoster, if you talk to him again, give him my advice: "if you can't swim, don't climb a tree because you'll get hit by a tram" :) he will appreciate the humor00:53
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DawnFosterVenemo: will do!00:55
Venemo:) :P00:55
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berndhsi feel much better now, it was bugging me00:56
CosmoHillI was fine until you two started worrying00:57
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alteregoI was fine, he said he was having a vbreak01:35
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berndhs~seen berndhs_meego02:39
infobotberndhs_meego <~berndhs_m@2001:4830:1135:1:216:36ff:fe63:6551> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 120d 1h 29m 36s ago, saying: 'andyross: I know the lib is there, in an deprecated version, just wondering if anyone actually uses it'.02:39
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iekkumorning07:38
dm8tbrmood groaning07:39
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berndhsmorning indeed, here too :)07:47
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leakydickhi09:37
Termanamorning09:37
leakydickDid the SVN close down?09:38
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timophsvn?09:45
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jsmith_hi, just now itried meego on beagleboard, getting error mount: mount point /sys/kernel/debug/ does not exist..any solution for thisSSSSS?12:20
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alteregojsmith_: you might have more luck in #meego-arm12:25
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CosmoHilldear lord, no wonder people stopped using myspace12:44
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andreizrohy all. I am having problems building glibc on ARM. Using MeeGo 1.1.99.0.20110329.5 (1.2 rc1) .... I get exactly the error described here: http://lists.linaro.org/pipermail/linaro-toolchain/2010-July/000021.html13:41
andreizroshouldn't this be fixed? I see it built ok in Trunk13:41
iekkuandreizro, #meego-arm?13:41
iekkuandreizro, fastest way to find help :D13:42
andreizroI'll try  ... thanks13:42
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berndhsmorning15:38
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CosmoHillclose enough15:41
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taljurfguys, what interface is the tablet meego using, the same netbook interface?16:22
mikeleibnope.  it's own16:23
mikeleibs/it's/its/16:23
infobotmikeleib meant: nope.  its own16:23
Sagetaljurf: it is the one called "MeeGo User Experience"16:23
slaineTablet UX16:24
mikeleibMeeGo UX16:24
mikeleibthat's what it's called in the repos16:24
slaineDear God, why confuse it even more16:24
Sageslaine: actually just MeeGo UX no tablet in the name16:24
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Sagehttps://meego.gitorious.org/meego-ux16:24
slaineAre all other UX's being dropped ?16:24
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CosmoHillhey slaine16:24
slaineHey CosmoHill16:25
Sageslaine: There is "MeeGo Netbook UX", "MeeGo Handset UX" and then the new "MeeGo UX" (also called tablet ux in many places)16:25
CosmoHillHandset, Tablet and netbook each have their own UX16:25
mikeleibhandset images continue to be made with the handset UX and netbook images continue to be made with the netbook UX16:25
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CosmoHillhey vgrade-de16:25
mikeleibas has been demonstrated, it is possible to run the MeeGo UX on a handset if you want to16:25
CosmoHillReading vs Leeds in two weeks16:25
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Sagehttps://bugs.meego.com/enter_bug.cgi?classification=MeeGo%20Platform "Bugs for MeeGo User Experience" ;)16:26
slaineYes, but calling the MeeGo Tablet UX the MeeGo UX implies something, whether intentionally or not16:26
slainein that it's THE MeeGo UX16:26
vgrade-dehi cosmohill, real playoff battle16:26
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vgrade-deCosmoHill: we've slipped up a few times over the last few matches, lets hope we can at least stay in a plyoff spot16:27
vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: hi16:27
vgrade-dedid you see, https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13504#attach_4510, looks like our joggler bug, and a  possible resolution16:28
MeeGoBotBug 13504 maj, Medium, ---, matthew.d.roper, NEW, IVI+emgd: screen tears/black when launching MTF apps on Crown Bay16:28
CosmoHillI've printed off all the code for one programming assignment16:28
CosmoHilldamn thing must be almost 50 pages :o16:28
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mikeleibyou have to print it?16:28
mikeleibwhat does the recipient do with the output?16:29
CosmoHillread it I suppose16:29
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CosmoHillwe're required to print out our source code for (assignment) submission16:29
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* CosmoHill has half a dinning table of source code16:43
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ali123450 pages... that's some long assignment16:47
ali1234how many lines is it?16:47
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CosmoHilleach function is printed seperatly, some functions are 250 lines, some are 516:50
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gabrbedd12 pt. font?  Double-spaced?16:56
gabrbeddDo inline functions get single-spaced or smaller type?16:56
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CosmoHillgabrbedd: whatever nodepad++ prints .m files in16:58
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gabrbeddCosmoHill: I think it prints in the computer lab by the library, on the other side of campus >>>>>>>>17:00
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CosmoHillhehe yeah17:01
CosmoHillwait, did I say other side of campus? I meant the other campus17:02
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* CosmoHill treats himself to a cookie and some russel howard17:06
CosmoHillooo even better, Have I got news for you17:06
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gabrbeddCosmoHill: news?17:36
CosmoHillhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mkw317:37
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gabrbeddCosmoHill: oh!  haha17:38
gabrbeddCosmoHill: There's a radio program on here that's kinda similar called "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me"17:39
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* CosmoHill reads a FAQ that has this:17:40
CosmoHillA website about cats that look like Hitler. Are you mental or what?17:40
CosmoHillYes. Next question.17:40
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gabrbedd:-)17:42
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CosmoHillI do like that they display the complaints as well as the complements on the website17:45
r4co0nHey, i just downloaded the img from http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/latest/images/meego-netbook-ia32/ in order to install it to my eee-pc. I dd-ed the image content to a stick, i thought this was what i did when i first installed MeeGo, but the resulting USB-image does seem to be not bootable...17:45
r4co0nDid i do something terribly wrong?17:45
CosmoHillr4co0n: what processor does your eeeeeeeeeeeeeeepc have?17:45
r4co0natom17:45
r4co0nwrong image?17:46
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CosmoHillcould you try another USB stick or try the stick on another computer?17:46
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r4co0ncosmo, sure, but i think i had the problem with the last image as well...17:47
r4co0nmay be the stick17:47
CosmoHillcould it be BIOS settings?17:48
r4co0nshouldnt be17:48
r4co0ni installed meego already17:48
r4co0nits running17:48
r4co0ni just want a new version17:48
r4co0nand fiddled some bit with the files, so wanted to start over new17:48
CosmoHill1.2 should be released within a few weeks17:48
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r4co0nits a bios setting17:49
r4co0nother netbook boots17:49
r4co0nany idea what could be the reason?17:50
r4co0ni must have misconfigured sth when i was drunk :P17:50
CosmoHilldid you use the DD command on the website?17:50
gabrbeddr4co0n: Exactly where does it fail?  Can you not even select the drive for booting?17:50
gabrbeddr4co0n: Or do you see the boot screen (Run MeeGo, Install, etc), and it fails after that?17:51
r4co0nit doesnt consider the thumbdrive bootable17:51
r4co0ndont see the start screen17:51
CosmoHilldo other computers consider it bootable?17:51
r4co0ni used dd from debian squeeze17:51
r4co0nyes17:51
r4co0na fujitsu just loaded it17:51
r4co0nsummary: drive bootable, but not considered so by eee-pc. probably bios-setting.17:52
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gabrbeddr4co0n: AFAIK, most bioses just scan to see if a device is attached... and they do not inspect its contents.17:53
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gabrbeddr4co0n: So, it looks like a setup issue with your hardware/bios17:53
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r4co0nsry, i just had to specificially select the thumb drive, deactivating everything else wasnt enough. works now. and had to turn off "fast boot" to be able to do so...17:56
r4co0nthx for the help17:56
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r4co0nMeeGo r0cK517:57
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gabrbeddr4co0n: You're welcome... glad you got it working.17:57
CosmoHill:)17:58
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* CosmoHill wonders why his default printer keeps changing18:15
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r4co0nshould i give my separate home partition on another drive also btrfs or ext3? anyone got performance tips?18:18
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vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: hi, did you see the EMGD bug report and possible solution18:36
gabrbedd"The documentation for git suite was started by David Graeves, and later enhanced greatly by the contributors on the git-list"  You rock, lbt!18:37
CosmoHillno no no wtf18:37
CosmoHilla major part of my assignment has decided it no longer wants to work18:38
Stskeepswelcome to murphy's law18:39
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Stskeepsmight as well get used to it for your working life18:39
Stskeeps:P18:39
w00t_^18:39
CosmoHillit fecking worked an hour ago18:39
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bedboihi there18:39
CosmoHillthe error message must be pushing 50 lines :/18:39
bedboihi there. Anyone knows if the meego virtual keyboard can be used as a standalone app?18:40
fralsw00t_: go back to your operators! ;)18:40
w00t_:'(18:40
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r4co0nmy again: I finished installation, but meego seems to hang after hitting the "finish" button, the guy waving the hand at me wont go away...18:42
r4co0n*me18:42
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TSCHAKeeevgrade-de: yup, i am building a new image to test.18:43
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vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: for the A9 or Joggler18:45
TSCHAKeeea918:45
mikeleibr4co0n: I've seen it hang in umounting loopback, but there's usually text on the screen18:45
TSCHAKeeebut it should be the same for the joggler18:45
vgrade-deyup18:45
vgrade-defingers x18:46
r4co0nmikeleib: no text, since ~12min18:46
mikeleibthat's a new one to me18:46
mikeleibr4co0n: is it repeatable?  If so, file it18:46
r4co0nmikeleib: i accidently pulled the stick to soon when i installed 30min ago, but it didnt do anything else... it might be repeatable18:46
TSCHAKeeevgrade-de: the problem described literally describes what I saw in the early days of X compositors, when they would try to grab a texture bigger than the driver would allow.18:46
mikeleibIf not, then file it but not it's a heisenbug18:46
TSCHAKeeefirefox was notorious for this18:47
mikeleibs/not/note/18:47
infobotmikeleib meant: If note, then file it but not it's a heisenbug18:47
* mikeleib needs better regex18:47
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r4co0nmikeleib: gonna try again, cause last time it failed mounting some drive after reboot...18:47
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vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: the screen shot looks like the effect I get on the joggler sometimes with tablet ux, it can be a lot worse though18:48
kcroothello i am looking source SDK for meego18:48
r4co0nany reason there is no text-console showing errors? would i need a developer version of MeeGo?18:48
CosmoHill<rant>18:49
kcrooti using gentoo but isnt in portage18:49
CosmoHilloh screw you matlab, on like 54 of 700 I had '; instead of ;'18:49
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mikeleibr4co0n: I think it's just freezing before it would go back to text mode18:49
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dfadsfi am angry18:50
gabrbeddr4co0n: I've been seeing the same thing when installing lately.  Just cycle the power button... I think your install completed fine.18:50
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CosmoHillhttp://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/pastebin/index.php?7 <<< that was the error message it gave me18:50
CosmoHilldfadsf: me too18:50
r4co0ngabrbedd: it didnt last time, but i pulled the usb 5s faster...18:50
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r4co0ngabrbedd: u r right, we should file a minor bug though, shouldnt we?18:51
dfadsfmeego seems popular among hackers18:51
r4co0nmeego is popular at my grandma's18:51
r4co0nshe likes it a lot18:51
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r4co0nno joke18:52
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dfadsfshe love meego rather than your grandpa?18:52
r4co0nhes dead for 20 years18:53
r4co0nso yeah18:53
r4co0nshe had some win7 starter beforehands18:54
r4co0nand asked lots of questions18:54
r4co0nthis time is over18:54
r4co0nit does everything she wants18:54
gabrbeddr4co0n: Yeah... need to file a bug.  Lemme know if you do and I'll add myself to the CC.18:54
CosmoHill"why can't I have four programs at once"18:54
* mikeleib makes snide comment about OOM killer and small devices18:55
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dfadsfi think i must ask more questions than your grandma18:58
dfadsffor i still use winxp18:58
lbtgabrbedd: :)18:59
dfadsfi am a poor guy18:59
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GAN900CosmoHill, who can't?19:01
CosmoHillI thought windows starter was limited to 3 or 4 programs19:03
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maligoronly time I ever saw it was on one of the Lenovo netbooks, I recoiled in horror and never booted it again19:04
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dfadsfemacs or vim?19:05
maligorI prefer to use gnu/linux over emacs19:06
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gabrbeddCosmoHill: It is.19:06
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TSCHAKeeevgrade-de: much better19:14
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vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: \o/19:15
vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: wish I had my Joggler with me19:15
TSCHAKeeei have no way to trigger the home screen yt19:16
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vgrade-dedoes the a9 have any hw buttons19:17
vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: what does video looko like?19:18
TSCHAKeeetwo19:18
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TSCHAKeeethey provide a really low quality big buck bunny19:19
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TSCHAKeeebut it looks like here that it is using xv19:19
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mikeleibthere is nothing you can do to improve the quality of that film.  You can only improve the bandwidth and resolution19:19
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TSCHAKeeeI have a 1080p copy of it somewhere19:20
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mikeleibsounds like improved bandwidth and resolution...19:20
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TSCHAKeeesometimes the pedantism of extremely left brained people seriously piss me off.19:21
* TSCHAKeee looks at mikeleib19:21
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vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: the n900 DE guys used this patch for home key, https://build.pub.meego.com/package/view_file?file=0002-Grab-ctrl-to-go-home-on-N900.patch&package=meego-ux-daemon&project=Project%3ADE%3ADevel%3ATablet&srcmd5=48e97a9ba00abd90741b8941f8264d5e19:22
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vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: have to run now, catch you later.  look fwd to a video of table ux on a919:24
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CosmoHillbytw  vgrade-de19:24
CosmoHillbye*19:24
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* CosmoHill sees his dream car and then sees his car insurance double, then crys19:42
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CosmoHillthe 3rd cheapest quote is over £1000 more than the car19:43
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qgilhi, are you able to log in at http://planet.meego.com  ?20:05
Stskeepsdoesn' work for me20:06
Wellark^oh, I thought it was only me :D20:06
TSCHAKeeethere you go, it is broken.20:06
TSCHAKeeeeverybody take out your baseball bats and beat the admins20:06
TSCHAKeee:P20:06
berndhsshould I want to log in there ?20:07
qgilok, thanks - this is blocking https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1493220:07
TSCHAKeeethen apologize profusely and offer them beer, so they may fix the problem20:07
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MeeGoBotBug 14932 nor, Undecided, ---, henri.bergius, NEW, Please add Michael Hasselmann to the MeeGo Planet20:07
CosmoHillI can log in20:07
DawnFosterI can log in20:07
qgilberndhs: when it is fully implemented yes - you will be able to help promoting the good stuff to the meego.com homepage20:07
DawnFosterbut they were supposed to give me admin access, which I don't have yet20:07
CosmoHillDawnFoster: snap20:08
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qgilDawnFoster: maybe I can't login because I have admin access  ;)20:08
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CosmoHillwait, I can log in but it still has "login" in the corner20:08
DawnFosterwell, since you have admin access, if you ever get logged in, can you grant it to me :)20:08
CosmoHillguess it means I can't leave20:08
qgilDawnFoster: I don't think I'm that kind of admin20:09
qgilI'll send an email to meego.community with these two problems20:09
DawnFosterand it thinks I'm logged in, but voting doesn't work20:09
qgilccing henri20:09
DawnFosteror file a bug report?20:09
qgilCCing bergie in bug reports seems to be less _efficient_20:09
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qgiland there is already one about login irregularities20:09
DawnFosterI think it needs a fair amount of work before it gets launched20:10
qgilthat looks exactly what you/we have got20:10
qgilDawnFoster: me too20:10
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qgilsent - thanks! http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2011-April/003897.html20:19
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vgrade-dealterego, did you try removing -opengl, I did the same on the tegra, worked a treat on all the apps but not on panels.  If I removed the opengl from ux-daemon touch stopped working, happy birthday by the way20:44
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TSCHAKeeevgrade-de: everything works RIGHT up until the MTF keyboard shows up20:45
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TSCHAKeeethen whole screen goes black until it's gone20:45
Stskeepsdoes it use self-composition or not?20:46
TSCHAKeeenot sure...this is with Tablet UX20:46
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vgrade-deTSCHAKeee:  kb works ok if not a little slowly for me on fbdev20:47
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alteregovgrade-de: thanks :) Well, no I've not tried it yet, been out doing birthday things ;)20:47
vgrade-dei'll save you a beer for bext week20:48
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TSCHAKeeeso close20:48
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alterego:)20:48
TSCHAKeeealthough really, i think in the end, LinuxMCE will just do its own thing with the new orbiter, rendering our own QML screens etc.20:48
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TSCHAKeeewe shall see...20:49
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alteregoIf I had a panda board I'd make my own Qml MeeGo TV/Multimedia system.20:50
alteregoUnfortunately I'm living on a budget at the moment :D20:51
TSCHAKeeealterego: join our project. ;)20:51
TSCHAKeeealterego: we have 10 years of learning from mistakes on our belt. ;)20:51
GAN900alterego, wouldn't that be nice?20:51
alteregoGAN900: ?20:52
GAN900I've got enough consoles and STBs in the home theater cabinet to make it not worth it, though.20:52
alteregoGAN900: You mean a panda media center thingy?20:52
GAN900A MeeGo STB20:52
alteregoYeah, would be awesome.20:52
Stskeepsdid you see the xbmc qt clone?20:52
alteregoI should start a company building them :)20:52
alteregoThe only aspect of meego I'm not really interested in is IVI tbh, because I'd just use tablet on the dashboard (if I had a tablet)20:53
TSCHAKeeeGAN900: we can control them all.20:53
GAN900alterego, yeah.20:53
GAN900TSCHAKeee, I just wish CableCard hadn't been neutered.20:53
alteregoProblem is, it's quite a lot of effort keeping up with everything :D20:53
TSCHAKeeeGAN900: agreed...but at least we can control external AV gear pretty well20:53
TSCHAKeeewe can also pipe the result through a tuner like the HDPVR and bounce it around the house20:54
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GAN900TSCHAKeee, just picked up some INSTEON IR TX/RX devices.20:54
TSCHAKeeeso at least there is a way around it20:54
GAN900Should increase the fun level.20:54
TSCHAKeeeGAN900: we have an Insteon driver in LinuxMCE that's fairly complete.20:55
vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: did you see this bug report, it promises a new ivi QML ux for the 19 April.  I guess they will need to have a kb working for that, bug 1478220:55
MeeGoBotBug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14782 nor, Medium, ---, jimmy.huang, NEW, [IVI-UX]FPS of glxgears/meegovideo is too low IVIHome based on QT20:55
TSCHAKeeethe only things more complete are the KNX and Z-Wave drivers20:55
TSCHAKeeevgrade-de: cool20:55
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RST38hWhy would you need a keyboard in your car? =)20:56
TSCHAKeeevgrade-de: GAN900: and while this may not be completely meego related, I threw together a prototype of "Desktop Agent" support to solicit further development: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1pedtpuYzA20:56
vgrade-deRST38h: virtual one20:56
GAN900Just wish the propreitary protocol weren't the useful one.20:56
* TSCHAKeee does wish more ppl would join our effort.. we have a considerable architecture that's unmatched anywhere else.20:57
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vgrade-dealterego: I could loan you my pb for a couple of weeks while im on my next trip to Germany20:58
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GAN900TSCHAKeee, need somebody selling pre-loaded hardware.20:59
TSCHAKeeeGAN900: http://www.lmcecompatible.com/20:59
TSCHAKeeealso20:59
TSCHAKeeehttp://www.dianemo.co.uk/20:59
TSCHAKeeeand a couple of others.20:59
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alteregovgrade-de: that'd be cool :) I'd love to play with one hooked up to my TV ;)21:00
alteregoI've also got a USB DVB card (which is supported under linux) which has an IR reciever.21:00
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vgrade-deI'll bring it along next week,21:00
* TSCHAKeee sighs.21:01
alteregoSo N900 -> LIRC -> DVB DONGLE -> Panda -> 1080p HDTV :)21:01
TSCHAKeee. o O (so frustrating.)21:01
TSCHAKeeeyikes21:01
TSCHAKeeeprimitive.21:01
TSCHAKeee(damn, I said that out loud)21:01
alteregovgrade-de: thanks, that'd be really cool :)21:02
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TSCHAKeeewhy do you want to jerry rig stuff like that?21:04
TSCHAKeeereally?21:04
TSCHAKeeespend a little time thinking things out and abstract a little21:04
TSCHAKeeenevermind.21:05
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alteregoTSCHAKeee: ?21:06
TSCHAKeeewe built an entire smart home platform around a messaging bus21:06
alteregoI can abstract the N900 and LIRC out with the IR remote that came with the DVB dongle :P21:06
TSCHAKeeeand built end points for each device we wanted to support, with an abstracted, but well defined command and event structure21:07
TSCHAKeeeas a result, we can pretty much plug anything in.21:07
TSCHAKeeewithout having to wrap duct tape around it.21:07
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TSCHAKeeeand we spent a great deal of time refining data structures on how to describe each and every device that could exist within a home, as generalized as possible.21:08
TSCHAKeeeit was a great deal of planning up front21:08
TSCHAKeeebut it has allowed us to scale outward and not hit any brick walls.21:08
alteregoWhat's that got to do with my hardware list?21:09
TSCHAKeeeit just irritates me when i see people reinventing the wheel over and over21:09
alteregoWhat am I reinventing?21:09
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TSCHAKeeeyou're making yet another LIRC controlled media setup.21:10
alteregoDon't be irritated :P21:10
alteregoNo, I'm using LIRC on the N900 to act as an infrared remote.21:10
TSCHAKeeeit just drives me nuts, because I spent years actually thinking the problem through.21:11
alteregoDo you have something else that will turn my N900 into an infrared remote control?21:11
TSCHAKeeeand now I can use whole groups of devices to control virtually everything inside the house21:11
TSCHAKeeeI run the orbiter program on my N900, which makes it a control for my house.21:11
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TSCHAKeeebut it requires the rest of the LinuxMCE infrastruture21:11
alteregoOkay, so if you have a wifi/network strategy then sure, I'd prefer that :P21:11
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alteregoI have absolutely _no_ problem with using LinuxMCE :P21:12
TSCHAKeeei've been trying to get a panda for months21:12
TSCHAKeeeso i can start a media director port21:12
alteregoIn fact I'd rather use something that does most if not all of what I want functionally, so I can just play with the UX21:12
alteregoBecause that's all I'm interested in.21:13
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RST38h"<TSCHAKeee> i've been trying to get a panda for months" <-- this deserves to be saved in a quote list21:13
TSCHAKeeeRST38h: lol21:13
alteregoHahah21:13
TSCHAKeee;)21:13
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TSCHAKeeewow, okay. let me rephrase that. ;)21:13
TSCHAKeeea panda BOARD21:13
TSCHAKeee:P21:13
vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: alterego has been doing some cool stuff with QML. might be worth discussing the plans for orbiter21:13
TSCHAKeeealterego: the idea is to replace the Orbiter software we have right now, with something that renders in QML21:14
alteregoI don't even know what orbiter is, TSCHAKeee you'll have to forgive my ignorance in this subject. I don't know what is available now, how things are connected together etc.21:14
alteregoTSCHAKeee: Cool :)21:14
TSCHAKeeealterego: if you have 20 minutes21:14
TSCHAKeeealterego: you can watch our original demo (circa 2007)21:14
alteregoYeah, I've got 20 minutes :)21:14
TSCHAKeeealterego: and please forgive the UI21:14
vgrade-dejust get your orders in for pb.  I had to wait 2 months for mine21:15
TSCHAKeeewe know it's basic21:15
TSCHAKeeebut when you're a set of only a few developers21:15
TSCHAKeeeworking on 4 million lines of code21:15
TSCHAKeeeyeah, you have priorities. ;)21:15
vgrade-demitsutaka: hi, how are things with you, done anything new with the Nexus?21:15
TSCHAKeeealterego: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=217602560290510982921:16
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alteregoWell, I'd be happy to get involved in the UX :)21:16
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TSCHAKeeealterego: that would be great, the qml for the UX can be developed in parallel while we're working on the code.21:17
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alteregoIt'd be refreshing for me to work on just UI code for a change :)21:18
TSCHAKeeeOrbiter was written way back in 200321:18
TSCHAKeeelong before any of this stuff existed21:18
alteregoAnd I've been wanting to work on a media centric TV oriented UX for years.21:18
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TSCHAKeeealterego: TV is but one of our targets.. orbiter runs on tablets, TVs, PDAs, cell phones, and IP phones21:19
TSCHAKeeewe had to design a whole retargetable UI for it, and now we're about to jettison it.21:19
alteregoPainful but ultimately hopefully a rewarding excercise :)21:20
TSCHAKeeeyes21:20
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TSCHAKeeealterego: if you watch the demo, hopefully you'll get an idea of the scope of the system21:21
alteregoSo does it have PVR archiving capability?21:22
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berndhsI would love to have linuxMCE for my boat, when I have a boat again :)21:23
alterego:)21:23
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TSCHAKeeeberndhs: one of the first deployments of Pluto (the original name for the system) was on a yacht. ;)21:24
vgrade-deTSCHAKeee: alterego , how extendable do you think the panels in tablet ux are?21:24
alteregoHeh, is it weird that I name all my devices after bodies in space as well?21:25
Stskeepswhat, dead astronauts?21:25
Stskeeps:P21:25
TSCHAKeeeheheh21:25
TSCHAKeeevgrade-de: the engine seems extensible enough21:25
alteregoMy primary N900 is Proteus, laptop is Artemis, netbook (gfs now apparently) is Saturn21:25
alteregovgrade-de: how do you mean extensible? Maybe a panel is easy if that's what you mean :)21:25
alteregos/Maybe/Making/21:26
infobotalterego meant: vgrade-de: how do you mean extensible? Making a panel is easy if that's what you mean :)21:26
vgrade-dealterego: just thinking about an orbiter panel in tablet ux21:26
alteregoGood idea, :)21:26
TSCHAKeeeI had thought of that too.21:27
TSCHAKeeewe have a concept of "Screens" in Orbiter21:27
TSCHAKeeewhich are basically just encapsulated modalities21:27
TSCHAKeeei.e. one screen is a list of all the scenarios available in a room21:27
TSCHAKeeeanother screen is the remote control for what's currently playing21:28
TSCHAKeeeanother screen pops up when a call comes in, etc.21:28
alteregoCool21:28
TSCHAKeeeand we have a concept of "binding" orbiters to a screen etc, so that they stay in sync when something changes21:28
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TSCHAKeeealterego: for example, if i use my TV remote to start a movie21:28
TSCHAKeeealterego: the Joggler beside my bed also changes to the video playing remote21:29
TSCHAKeeeas well as my cisco IP phone21:29
TSCHAKeeeetc.21:29
TSCHAKeeekept in sync21:29
alteregoCool21:29
TSCHAKeeealterego: the video shows all of this... are you watching? :)21:29
alteregomy gf is ebaying at the moment, don't want to screw her auctions just yet :P21:30
TSCHAKeeeROFL21:30
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TSCHAKeeeunderstood completely21:30
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TSCHAKeeealterego: we also have an extensive plug and play system... if I plug in a new network storage drive, or a new IP phone, or a new media director, or a networked tuner like the HDHomeRun, etc... or a USB device, etc.. the system asks about it, and asks whether or not it should configure it automatically.21:31
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TSCHAKeeeas well as diskless booting of all media PCs21:32
alteregoneat, what do you use for video streaming?21:32
alteregoIf you do streaming?21:32
TSCHAKeeewith remote powering on/off21:32
TSCHAKeeealterego: it's highly abstracted, currently we use a player based on libxine that we've made into a device for the system, it can stream to the other end points in the house as needed.21:32
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TSCHAKeeealterego: but it can be replaced with another DCE device that implements gstreamer, or mplayer, or VLC, for example.21:33
alteregoAnd do you expose uPnP interfaces etc21:33
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TSCHAKeeealterego: we really do not care... the core of the system just sends messages, "go play this" "do this" etc.21:33
alteregoCool21:33
alteregoCan you talk uPnP ?21:33
alteregoYou better do ;)21:34
TSCHAKeeealterego: we currently package MediaTomb as a UPNP server, and we use djmount to crawl upnp devices for media to show up in the system...but we want to do better.21:34
TSCHAKeeethe issue being that21:34
TSCHAKeeewell21:34
TSCHAKeeeUPnP as a standard21:34
TSCHAKeeereally sucks.21:34
alteregoI know :/21:34
TSCHAKeeefull of holes21:34
alteregoIt's a real b*tch21:34
TSCHAKeeeand I've been saving up money21:34
TSCHAKeeeto get a copy of the DLNA standards21:34
alteregoUnfortunately Sony have used it quite a bit ..21:34
TSCHAKeee(it's $10,000 to get the book)21:34
alteregoWow ..21:34
TSCHAKeeethe irony is once we implement the messaging21:35
TSCHAKeeewe can control their devices effortlessly21:35
TSCHAKeeewe also were the ONLY system in existance21:35
TSCHAKeeeto actually implement THX Blackbird21:35
TSCHAKeeeALL OF IT21:35
alterego:)21:35
TSCHAKeeemeaning, that if you selected a DVD, or put one in, whatever21:35
TSCHAKeeeit would contact THX servers, send a disc ID21:35
alteregoWell, if you ever feel the need to control security cameras I know several PTZ protocols :)21:36
TSCHAKeeeand based on that disc ID send back a whole set of parameters for the TV and the amplifier21:36
TSCHAKeeewhich the system would send the appropriate commands to set TV aspect ratio, DSP modes for the amplifier etc automatically21:36
TSCHAKeeebut the standard didn't survive21:36
TSCHAKeeebecause nobody could implement it all21:36
TSCHAKeee;)21:36
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alteregoNeat21:37
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TSCHAKeeealterego: we do support and control security cameras within the system21:37
alteregoOh cool21:37
TSCHAKeeeas well as provide an interface to security sensors etc21:37
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TSCHAKeeewhether they are stand alone, or connected to a supported panel21:37
TSCHAKeeepoint being you relaly don't need a panel21:37
TSCHAKeeeorbiter becomes your panel21:37
TSCHAKeeealterego: when I say "smart home platform" ... I mean it.21:38
TSCHAKeeewe even do climate and irrigation control21:38
alteregoDo you have a list of protocols?21:38
alteregoI guess it doesn't really matter, all the protocols I know are industrial anyway ..21:39
TSCHAKeeealterego: yeah, on the wiki.. but the short list is, X-10, Z-Wave, Insteon, EIB/KNX, PLCBus, and a few others.21:39
TSCHAKeee(yes we actually support KNX)21:39
alteregoHeh21:39
TSCHAKeeealterego: we even have a mechanism for follow me21:39
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TSCHAKeeealterego: if you can emit a presence event in the house that says you've gone from one room to another21:40
TSCHAKeeealterego: the system will make your media, lighting, climate, telecom, whatever, follow you to that room21:40
alteregoNeat,21:40
TSCHAKeeeturning things on/off as needed.21:40
TSCHAKeeewe've done it in the past with cell phones, RFID tags, 1-wire i-buttons, etc.21:40
alteregoI don't really have anything that could do that :)21:40
alteregoExcept point/click on a map.21:41
TSCHAKeeeand yeah21:41
TSCHAKeeeyou can do that too21:41
TSCHAKeeeif you change room on an orbiter with follow me enabled21:41
TSCHAKeeeit will emit the event21:41
TSCHAKeeei want somebody to take OpenKinect21:41
TSCHAKeeeand OpenCV21:41
TSCHAKeeeand do a device for the Kinect21:41
TSCHAKeeewhich does facial recog21:41
TSCHAKeeemy initial experiements with OpenCV show this is possible21:42
alteregoYeah, RFID seems the most "robust" because I don't want my gf triggering an IR sensor whilst she's sleeping and a TV coming alive in the bedroom showing hard core porn.21:42
TSCHAKeeehaha21:42
TSCHAKeee;)21:42
TSCHAKeeewe do support private media btw21:43
alteregoTSCHAKeee: http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/Z.Kalal/tld.html21:43
TSCHAKeeeboth in storage21:43
alteregoUnder GPL too :)21:43
RST38halterego: Why is it set to the hardcore porn channel in the first place?21:43
TSCHAKeeeand in the floorplan you can mark media as private so ppl can't view it.21:43
TSCHAKeeealterego: that's the other thing too..once you draw a floorplan, you can place devices on it, and use the floor plan view to control any device in your home discretely.21:43
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ali1234TSCHAKeee: do you have real, non-technical users?21:44
ali1234i mean eg people who use it every day and don't have a nerd to keep it working on call 24 hours21:44
ali1234and also have a fairly large complicated set up21:44
ali1234such as the one in your demo video21:44
TSCHAKeeeali1234: yes. As I have mentioned above, there are installers above who install and maintain the systems for customers.21:45
TSCHAKeeejust like any Crestron, AMX, Control4, etc. setup21:45
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alteregoThat predator stuff looks v. impressive21:45
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alteregoI might play with it sometime.21:45
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TSCHAKeeeali1234: the complex nature of the whole problem space means ultimately that LinuxMCE will have to rely on technical competence for its installation.21:46
TSCHAKeeethis will change over time21:46
TSCHAKeeeand as I am NOT interested in having a billion users21:46
TSCHAKeeethis helps reinforce my intrinsic patience.21:47
TSCHAKeeeI work on this system for fun21:47
TSCHAKeeebecause I want it to exist21:47
ali1234yes, for installation... but can you set it up for someone, and then they'll use it day to day without calling you every five minutes?21:47
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alterego:)21:47
TSCHAKeeeali1234: yes.21:47
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ali1234and has it been done?21:48
TSCHAKeeeyes. refer to Dianemo for an example.21:48
TSCHAKeeethey have close to 100 active clients under their belt atm21:48
ali1234cool, UK as well21:49
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TSCHAKeeeali1234: talk to Andrew Herron.. tell him Thomas Cherryhomes from LinuxMCE sent you. ;) (he is also known as totallymaxed on the forums and here on IRC)21:49
TSCHAKeeethey've been a Pluto systems specialist since 2005.21:50
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ali1234TSCHAKeee: i have no need for it personally, what with living in a cave and all21:52
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ali1234but the ability to install and forget is really the acid test of something like this21:53
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TSCHAKeeeali1234: :P21:55
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* RST38h checks out LinuxMCE, finds half the menus in primal green22:27
RST38h"How do you find that a program is made by geeks, for geeks, in three easy steps"22:28
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thiago_homeis that a meegoconf talk?22:29
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Stskeepsit could be fun to watch RST38h do that one, actually22:29
TSCHAKeeeRST38h: I know22:30
TSCHAKeeeRST38h: I did not do the UI22:30
RST38hOh, I can definitely do a talk like that, but it will be along the standup comedy lines22:31
TSCHAKeeegod I know22:31
RST38hTSCHAK: I know :)22:31
TSCHAKeeeI have been apologising for Orbiter's look22:31
TSCHAKeeesince 2003.22:31
TSCHAKeeemy throat is sore.22:31
berndhsTSCHAKeee: don't apologize, explain why its better that it doesn't look good22:31
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alteregoI think RST38h should do that talk22:32
TSCHAKeeeberndhs: we were busy making the back end possible22:32
alteregoWe should have a comedy tent or someting :P22:32
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TSCHAKeeeand making Orbiter highly retargetable22:32
berndhsTSCHAKeee: sure, but Apple and M$ often tell people their limitations are a good thing when they can't get soemthing to work22:33
TSCHAKeeehehehehe22:33
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TSCHAKeeeyes, that is true22:33
TSCHAKeeethe old "but you don't really need copy and paste. It's a feature!"22:33
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RST38h"<TSCHAKeee> berndhs: we were busy making the back end possible" <-- exactly22:36
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piotrhi22:42
piotrany Meegons here?22:42
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ali1234berndhs: or like "the menu and the minimize button suck anyway"22:44
ali1234wait, that's gnome, nvm22:44
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piotrany nokians working on meego?22:44
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Stskeepspiotr: there's plenty, but we're all meegons, company affiliation matters little :)22:47
piotrsure, I just need a nokian22:48
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CosmoHillwould a meegon with a nokia do?22:48
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piotr:)22:49
CosmoHillI have most of a nokia22:49
piotrwhich is the best non-nokia device to run meego?22:50
Stskeepswetab doesn't look half bad22:50
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CosmoHillpiotr: netbook, tablet or phone?22:51
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piotrphones I have plenty22:52
piotrI work for nokia22:52
piotrtablet or netbook could be nice22:52
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* CosmoHill finds further prove that the people who created the Vodafone website have never themselfs used it when he compares two touch screen phones that don't support touch screen22:55
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CosmoHillwtf, now it's just getting things very wrong22:57
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CosmoHillit says the HTC wild fire, doesn't have touch screen or 3G and that it has a 1.3MP camera22:57
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TSCHAKeeealterego: did you watch the demo?22:59
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TSCHAKeeehello DawnFoster23:00
timeless_w7iphi dawn23:00
CosmoHillwhat he said23:00
DawnFosterhey TSCHAKeee23:00
DawnFosterhi guys23:00
TSCHAKeeeDawnFoster: did you get my private msg earlier?23:00
* TSCHAKeee feels like Peter Potamus on Harvey Birdman ... "Didja get that THING i sent ya?!"23:01
TSCHAKeee:P23:01
gabrbeddhello timeless_w7ip23:01
DawnFosterTSCHAKeee: we've been working on getting a system set up for people to apply for community devices. We're not quite ready to take applications yet23:01
TSCHAKeeeok23:01
timeless_w7ipgrr23:02
timeless_w7ipcan someone please walk me through registering for the conference?23:02
timeless_w7ipit's asking me for a password23:02
timeless_w7ipand i'm confused23:03
alteregotimeless_w7ip: don't register as a speaker23:03
* timeless_w7ip watches arnold use a minigun to take out "all of them [police in the entire city]"23:03
alteregotimeless_w7ip: just register as an attendee.23:04
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gabrbeddtimeless_w7ip: yeah, what alterego said.  That was like a 5 minute speed bump for me, too.23:05
alteregoMe too :D23:05
* alterego doesn't feel like so much of an idiot.23:05
TSCHAKeeewho says open source people can't make effective UIs?23:05
TSCHAKeee:P :)23:05
DawnFosteraccepted speakers will get that code to register (or if they've already registered, we'll switch them to a speaker on the back end)23:06
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alteregoI presumed the speaker bit was more corporate :) Like bill gates wanting to do a talk23:07
alteregoBut I guess that's all done behind the scenes.23:07
TSCHAKeeewouldn't that just be insult to injury...23:07
DawnFosterwait, who told you he was one of the keynotes?23:08
DawnFoster</humor>23:08
TSCHAKeeehehehe23:09
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alterego:)23:09
alteregoI'd prefer him to Balmer. :)23:09
Ans5iBalmer would be cool.. :)23:09
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DawnFosterdevelopers, developers, developers23:10
Ans5idevelopers developers developers :)23:10
TSCHAKeeebouncing around like Donkey Kong going... yup23:10
TSCHAKeeeyou got it23:10
Ans5i:)23:10
DawnFosterha!23:10
Ans5i*second23:10
alteregodevelopers developers developers .... *tomato!*23:10
TSCHAKeeethen rolling Windows 7 Phones like they were barrels at attacking developers23:11
alteregoHeh23:11
gabrbeddmaybe balmer could give CosmoHill tips on throwing chairs23:11
* CosmoHill ears prick up23:11
alteregoHeh23:11
alteregoI registered on Intel App Up yesterday23:12
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alteregoI'm pretty annoyed that there's no tablet sdk for linux though23:12
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TSCHAKeeethere is, if you change the URL to read linux instead of windows23:13
alteregointerwesting23:13
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DawnFosteralterego: what Linux OS are you using?23:13
gabrbeddalterego: What do you mean "no tablet sdk" ?23:14
alteregoI'll check that out tomorrow.23:14
DawnFosterwe pulled the linux sdk23:14
alteregoDawnFoster: ubuntu 10.10 64bit currently23:14
CosmoHillDawnFoster: how come?23:14
gabrbeddalterego: What's wrong with the ones on RMC?23:14
DawnFosterfor doing very destructive things to atilla's os23:14
DawnFosterhe was using kubuntu23:14
CosmoHillwas being the key word23:14
DawnFosterit deleted a bunch of files23:14
julienfhey guys :)23:15
TSCHAKeeealterego: watch the demo video? :D23:15
julienflong time idle....23:15
alteregoThough don't even have a hfp arm madde sysroot yet :)23:15
DawnFostertechnically, it isn't supported on kubuntu, but it shouldn't be allowed to wipe a huge chunk of the hard drive either :)23:15
gabrbeddYeah... atilla had a minor objection to the install script doing a `rm -rf /` on his puter.23:15
alteregoTSCHAKeee: in a minute :)23:15
TSCHAKeeeheheheh okay23:15
DawnFosteras he shouls!23:15
gabrbeddWhat a whiner23:15
DawnFosterhey julienf23:15
gabrbedd:-)23:15
DawnFosterat least he was good natured about it!23:15
CosmoHillwas he all "nooo my por...grams"23:15
alteregoI'm suprised it didn't fdisk and install windows 7 :P23:16
gabrbeddYes, he was. :-)23:16
alteregoThat, is a serious flaw :D23:16
DawnFosteralterego: which is why we pulled it off the page :)23:16
CosmoHillwas atilla in the office or just very very angry when this happened?23:16
gabrbeddDawnFoster: What do you mean by "isn't supported on kubuntu" ?  It's still ubuntu.23:17
DawnFostergabrbedd: meaning we only do full qa on a few distros23:17
CosmoHillisn't it ironic that there isn't a linux SDK for a linux platform?23:17
TSCHAKeeessshhhh, it's not Linux, it's MeeGo23:17
DawnFostersomething was different enough that it worked on ubuntu and did something terrible on kubuntu23:18
TSCHAKeeewe don't wanna scare off the fragile windows developers23:18
DawnFostertechnically, the SDK is fine23:18
gabrbeddDawnFoster: k, thanks.23:18
DawnFosterit was the installer that was borked23:18
CosmoHillso I may install the SDK but lose pro...grams23:18
timeless_w7iprm -rtf / ? anyone have a video of this? :)23:18
CosmoHilltimeless_w7ip: blah23:19
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CosmoHillrm -rvf / &23:19
gabrbeddA ${HOME}-less SDK.  A root-less existence.23:19
CosmoHillif you're gonna empty someone's hard drive you might as well empty their bows too23:20
alteregoThis is why I generally build my own "sdks"23:20
DawnFosteralterego: what - you don't trust us? :)23:20
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gabrbeddI didn't install the Intel SDK.  What was special about it?23:21
DawnFosterit had a pretty installer, I think23:21
timeless_w7ipgah23:21
* timeless_w7ip kicks the registration form23:21
timeless_w7ipi entered dates first and then picked the room type23:21
timeless_w7ipwhen i picked the room type, it whiped out my dates!23:21
gabrbeddDawnFoster: hahaha, nice...23:21
timeless_w7ipgrr23:21
timeless_w7ipi can't check in on saturday night!?23:22
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alteregoDawnFoster: well, it's not that, I just like being able to customise things :)23:22
gabrbeddDawnFoster: Anyway... that's what I suspected.23:22
DawnFosterof course, you should ask an sdk developer in case I'm just making things up23:22
timeless_w7ipgrr23:23
DawnFostertimeless_w7ip: you should be able to check in on Sat23:23
timeless_w7ipwtf23:23
timeless_w7ipdawn: i'm trying23:23
DawnFosterassuming you are selecting the hyatt23:23
timeless_w7ipi picked standard king23:23
gabrbeddWell, I figured it was just marketing-fu to attract devs, that it's more or less the same thing avil on RMC.23:23
timeless_w7ipi can pick 20th or 22nd23:23
timeless_w7ipif i pick 20th, my only checkout is 21st23:23
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DawnFosterdid you try with double or another room type?23:24
* timeless_w7ip thinks that means there aren't any kings available on the 21st23:24
berndhsI said I will live in the parks, don't need accomodations23:24
DawnFostertimeless_w7ip: that's my guess23:24
timeless_w7ipyeah, i'll select double-queens23:24
DawnFosterberndhs: hard core!23:24
timeless_w7ipit's kinda annoying23:24
timeless_w7iphey, i've already done sleep in front of the library in sunny california23:24
timeless_w7ipsprinklers included23:25
timeless_w7ipi'd rather not do it again23:25
timeless_w7ip(it wasn't bad, but i was like 10 years younger)23:25
DawnFosterthat's not how I want to wake up23:25
alteregoTSCHAKeee: really don't like the video prompts in the installer :P23:25
Ans5iThere is btw still room for meegathon teams in meego-summit-fi :)23:25
Ans5ihttp://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/04/meego-summit-fi-appsstream-involved/23:25
DawnFosteras always, you can file bugs / feature requests against the sdk installer :)23:26
timeless_w7ipdawn: ok, i've registered, please flip me at your convenience, but before someone books a hotel23:30
timeless_w7ipi'm sure i can't afford it23:30
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timeless_w7ippart of the reason for the library sleeping arrangement was that hotels in the area were 200$/night23:30
timeless_w7ipand my credit card couldn't handle that23:30
* timeless_w7ip doesn't think it's any better today, plus that was santa clara, not san francisco which certainly costs more23:31
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TSCHAKeeealterego: yes...we know.23:46
TSCHAKeeethat was done by the romanian team23:47
TSCHAKeee(aka development team #2)23:47
alteregoWell, watched the whole thing now, very impressive :)23:48
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* CosmoHill throws steve balmer at VMware23:49
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TSCHAKeeealterego: thank you.23:49
TSCHAKeeealterego: we've just needed UI people. I can do it, and have the credentials for it...but I have my hands all over the code...no time...23:50
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alteregoWell, I'd like to get involved.23:51
alteregoAnd even if you don't have the time to do UI code, you can obviously help with the artistic input and overall UX design23:51
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alteregoIn fact, it'd be good to have some kind of specification23:55
alteregoAnd get everyone involved in building it.23:55
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