IRC log of #meego for Friday, 2011-04-01

lcuk	ie kernel ml	00:00
thiago_home	lcuk: can't be done exactly like windows as it would require changing completely our toolchain	00:00
thiago_home	the closest we can get is prelinking	00:00
thiago_home	most desktop distros do it	00:00
lcuk	really?	00:00
lcuk	once the ELF is loaded	00:01
lcuk	the app would not know whether the block of code came from itself	00:01
lcuk	or was gifted by the kernel or some other	00:01
thiago_home	that's already how it works	00:01
lcuk	really?	00:01
thiago_home	oh, yeah	00:01
* lcuk blinks		00:01
thiago_home	the difference between Linux and Windows is that on Linux all libraries a PIC and have no preferred load address	00:02
thiago_home	on Windows, they are non-PIC and have a preferred load address	00:02
* lcuk puts hand up		00:02
thiago_home	so a library on Linux can be loaded anywhere in the virtual address space. There's no special place where the cost is minimised.	00:02
w00t_	pla causes its own set of problems though, too, heh	00:02
lcuk	I thought the D in DLL was Dymanim	00:02
lcuk	Dynamic	00:02
thiago_home	on Windows, if it is loaded in it's preferred address, then all of its internal relocations are done	00:03
lcuk	thiago_home, so once the first thing has loaded libqt	00:03
ali1234	dynamic as in not static	00:03
lcuk	how come the second app using it has practically same amount of time delay	00:03
thiago_home	if it's not, then the loader needs to relocate the entire library and consume lots of non-shared pages for that	00:03
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w00t_	which is also very slow	00:03
thiago_home	lcuk: same amount of delay as?	00:04
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lcuk	practically starting the first app	00:04
thiago_home	that is really not the case	00:04
thiago_home	the load time can be decomposed in two major activities:	00:04
thiago_home	1) mapping the files from disk to memory	00:04
thiago_home	2) resolving the relocations	00:05
thiago_home	#2 is the same for every launch	00:05
thiago_home	#1 is the part that is shared. If the pages are already in memory, there's no disk I/O involved.	00:05
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w00t_	2) can be lowered through things like reducing the number of exports and stuff, which also needs doing I've already noticed :p	00:08
lcuk	thiago_home, resolving the relocations? if 1 worked it was mapped and done?	00:08
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lcuk	w00t_, I already said that to you many times, "the well trodden path" as far as api is concerned	00:08
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thiago_home	lcuk: ld.so can cache	00:09
thiago_home	lcuk: but it does need to resolve the relocations every time	00:09
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thiago_home	lcuk: if the load address is different, the relocations are different	00:09
lcuk	thiago_home, so it is not really ever making shared code memory available (because it is not shared, it is its own version with its own jumppoints within relocated?)	00:09
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thiago_home	lcuk: that's the "dirty text" problem	00:10
lcuk	sure	00:11
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thiago_home	lcuk: Linux libraries are PIC: the code runs in any load address, no relocations	00:11
thiago_home	it's clean	00:11
thiago_home	so the pages are shared across processes	00:11
lcuk	so why the time spent in "2. resolving the relocations"	00:11
thiago_home	the relocations are concentrated in a few pages	00:11
lcuk	which you said was for every lib	00:11
lcuk	ok, the jump tables?	00:12
thiago_home	the GOT mostly	00:12
thiago_home	yes	00:12
* lcuk nods		00:12
thiago_home	let me find a blog I wrote about this	00:12
lcuk	cool	00:12
thiago_home	http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2010/12/04/moving-code-around/ and http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2010/12/05/moving-code-around-more-easily/	00:12
lcuk	how does windows .net or even java manage?	00:13
lcuk	because they have a big lib too	00:13
thiago_home	Java doesn't count, it's JIT and bytecode	00:13
thiago_home	.NET (CLR) same	00:13
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lcuk	does everything happen in process?	00:13
lcuk	I don't see android crashing when one app goes down	00:14
thiago_home	I don't know, but it's a very important question	00:14
thiago_home	same as for JITted Python or JavaScript:	00:14
thiago_home	the code was produced by one process and not shared with others	00:14
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lcuk	the single process hildon/liqbase/qt quick playground way	00:15
* thiago_home realises that those two blogs were the last he blogged until last week		00:15
thiago_home	I'll have to blog tomorrow again then	00:15
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lcuk	it is april 1st for some folks already	00:15
* mikeleib reads backlog		00:16
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mikeleib	lcuk: thiago_home: PIC for x86 is ungood	00:17
thiago_home	mikeleib: the only important part is "it might be possible to dlopen non-PIC compiled with -z nocopyreloc"	00:17
thiago_home	mikeleib: I know	00:17
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thiago_home	but we have tons of libraries	00:17
thiago_home	I bet you a beer at MeeGo Conf that if you profile a complex app, most of its time is spent in library code anyway	00:17
thiago_home	so the marginal impact of compiling the app as PIC too will be minimal	00:18
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mikeleib	beer	00:18
* w00t_ will be profiling as soon as he gets his lenovo running meego...		00:18
* thiago_home remembers that he didn't pay for any beers during MeeGo Conf in Dublin, only for the ones he had on the Sunday before the event		00:19
* mikeleib needs to profile as well		00:19
* w00t_ booked his accomodation for SF a day or so ago :)		00:19
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w00t_	I'm staying a whole week	00:19
* mikeleib has to get his talk approved to go		00:19
w00t_	extra time to do touristy type things	00:19
w00t_	thiago_home: to be fair, in dublin, it was kind of hard to run out of beer :-P	00:20
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thiago_home	mikeleib: then I'll keep that beer in mind when reviewing your talk :-)	00:21
thiago_home	w00t_: that's the point	00:21
mikeleib	thiago_home: drink the beer before reviewing the talk	00:21
thiago_home	mikeleib: btw, "ungood"? Are you quoting arjan?	00:21
thiago_home	:-)	00:21
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mikeleib	thiago_home: chanelling	00:22
* mikeleib wishes upon a star for hpa's x32 ABI to become widespread and for register to be plentiful on 32-bit x86 code		00:22
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thiago_home	https://sites.google.com/site/x32abi/	00:24
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thiago_home	mikeleib: after quick skimming through it: 32-bit in long mode?	00:28
mikeleib	yeah	00:28
mikeleib	your pointers don't get all huge, but you get lots of registers	00:28
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thiago_home	sounds like MIPS32 on a MIPS64 machine (only with half as many registers)	00:29
thiago_home	or the ILP32 mode of IA-64. But then with only one eighth of the registers.	00:29
lcuk	thiago_home, on iphone, I noticed apps still needed a startup splash screen, but that they loaded quickly, are they binaries in same way?	00:30
thiago_home	lcuk: I think so	00:30
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thiago_home	iOS is Darwin, which uses the same code model as Linux, just not ELF	00:30
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thiago_home	the one big difference I recall is that they use a two-level linking: symbol names are recorded with the library name that should provide them	00:31
mikeleib	how does ld_proload work, then?	00:31
thiago_home	so technically, resolving symbol-based relocations is less complex	00:31
thiago_home	symbol injecting? I don't think it does.	00:32
mikeleib	feh	00:32
mikeleib	at least prelink doesn't b0rk LD_PRELOAD	00:32
lcuk	mikeleib, yeah it is just preloading a set of symbols at the top of the list	00:32
w00t_	that's almost an acceptable cost to pay in release environments	00:32
lcuk	it does not speed loading unfortunately, but gives a way to modify behaviour	00:32
w00t_	development, maybe not	00:32
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w00t_	lcuk: he knows what it is	00:33
lcuk	\o	00:33
w00t_	he was asking how it works on mac given what thiago said about linking	00:33
thiago_home	there are only 201 google results for searching "DYLD_PRELOAD" and that's after insisting to Google I really meant DYLD_PRELOAD	00:33
lcuk	the other 484 people over there might not >>	00:33
mikeleib	alas, in linooks, we are blessed with a hashing and searching system that is not optimized for large C++ symbols	00:34
w00t_	that's one way to put it :-)	00:34
CosmoHill	Anyone in here with an SE Elm or C510?	00:34
thiago_home	Qt symbol names aren't that big, if you compare to STL and Boost	00:35
mikeleib	efforts to change the way symbol relocation works have not been received well	00:35
lcuk	Robot101, you might want to show this to spyro, he suggested it for liqbase a while ago http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/31/apple_multitouch_spaces_patent_application/ i thought it was a bit funky	00:35
mikeleib	thiago_home: I assumed that Qt symbol names were purposefully not that big, after knowing how things worked in glibc	00:35
thiago_home	C++ would benefit from a vtable relocation	00:35
mikeleib	s/glibc/binutils/	00:35
infobot	mikeleib meant: thiago_home: I assumed that Qt symbol names were purposefully not that big, after knowing how things worked in binutils	00:35
mikeleib	what a handy fellow	00:36
w00t_	indeed he is	00:36
w00t_	come ooooon	00:36
thiago_home	I think he meant the bot	00:36
w00t_	this download is taking an eternity	00:36
w00t_	thiago_home: have you ever used 'perf' for profiling?	00:37
mikeleib	w00t_: profiling startup?	00:37
w00t_	mikeleib: that plus lots of other stuff, once I get my image :)	00:38
w00t_	126 kB/s, seriously, is download.meego.com running on dialup? :-P	00:39
lcuk	thiago_home, those articles are really indepth!	00:39
thiago_home	libQtGui.so.4: 27543 relocations, 21724 relative (78%) and 5819 for symbols, 1491 PLT entries, 1 for local syms (0%), 0 users	00:39
w00t_	thiago_home: oh, can you shoot me that script again?	00:39
w00t_	I had to wipe my scratchbox install, so I lost it	00:39
mikeleib	lcuk: articles ?	00:39
* w00t_ will put it somewhere a bit safer this time		00:39
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mikeleib	or is it ulrich's famous paper?	00:40
thiago_home	of those 5819 relocations for symbols, 690 are _ZTVN10__cxxabiv120__si_class_type_infoE, 335 for _ZN7QObject16disconnectNotifyEPKc, 335 for _ZN7QObject11customEventEP6QEvent, 334 for _ZN7QObject13connectNotifyEPKc and 320 for __cxa_pure_virtual	00:40
w00t_	__cxa_pure_virtual? what	00:40
thiago_home	mikeleib: yes, it's ulrich's script	00:40
w00t_	hm	00:40
mikeleib	if it's pure virtual, it needs to be differentiated from a null ptr	00:40
w00t_	ok	00:40
lcuk	mikeleib, thiago_home called them blog posts, but they are a bit too informative to be called that http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2010/12/04/moving-code-around/ http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2010/12/05/moving-code-around-more-easily/	00:40
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thiago_home	http://paste.kde.org/8654/	00:41
w00t_	mikeleib: yeah, googling helped	00:41
mikeleib	sigh.. the solution in linux is to prelink.. but it mangles yer binaries	00:42
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mikeleib	makes life for things like EVM hard	00:42
w00t_	ARM doesn't even have prelinking, yet	00:42
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mikeleib	just statically link everything :-P	00:43
thiago_home	trivia: QtGui has 690 "si" (single-inheritance) classes, 27 "vmi" (virtual or multiple inheritance) classes and 55 classes with no base	00:43
w00t_	I have considered that a few times, mikeleib :)	00:43
w00t_	would make updates a lot bigger, but if you only do them once a year or so it wouldn't be such a big deal	00:43
lcuk	mikeleib, I believe that was seriously suggested for the community downloads	00:43
* mikeleib wasn't serious		00:44
lcuk	my point exactly.	00:44
thiago_home	Qtopia used to have the "one big binary" mode	00:44
lcuk	thiago_home, would it help at some level to consolidate the libraries	00:44
lcuk	being practical like that	00:44
mikeleib	fix teh loader	00:45
lcuk	is loading 10 smaller libraries slower than 1 larger combined	00:45
lcuk	agreed mikeleib	00:45
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thiago_home	the problem with more libraries is the symbol search path	00:46
thiago_home	so having fewer big libraries is a good thing	00:46
thiago_home	it was one of the driving decisions for KDELibs 4	00:46
mikeleib	one must be pragmatic about it	00:46
mikeleib	but the state of library relocation has lead people to do crazy things such as kdeinit or prelink or how openoffice has 300 libraries it dlopens lazily	00:47
thiago_home	something we don't get in MeeGo. w00t_ once showed me the libraries loaded by a given program and it was huge	00:47
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thiago_home	the kdeinit hack is a "dynamic prelinking" trick	00:48
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w00t_	thiago_home: though that program just had an utterly insane platform, really	00:49
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mikeleib	waldo works here, you know	00:50
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w00t_	guess we know where he is then	00:50
w00t_	:-P	00:50
lcuk	mikeleib, draw a circle round him now and leave your initials	00:51
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lcuk	thiago_home, do kdelibs load faster then?	00:55
* mikeleib gets magic marker for next time he sees him		00:57
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auke	where's waldo? :D	00:59
auke	sorry, unfunny pun. especially from a non-american. I apologize.	01:00
w00t_	hey, everyone else did it	01:00
w00t_	:-P	01:00
auke	(of course, Waldo is dutch like me)	01:00
* w00t_ used to work with a lot of dutch people		01:00
w00t_	nice people, nice country	01:01
w00t_	shame about how flat it is though :)	01:01
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thiago_home	mikeleib: oh, yeah, waldo left many marks in KDE	01:13
thiago_home	ask him sometime about brockenboring	01:13
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auke	w00t_: the nice thing about a flat country, is you get to see what sticks out well :)	01:34
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* CosmoHill wonders what you could do with some tall poles and pringle wifi antennas		01:39
CosmoHill	(in the netherlands)	01:40
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w00t_	auke: :-)	01:42
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* w00t_ has a meegoized tablet		01:43
w00t_	well, lenovo	01:43
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mikeleib	w00t_: see my home:mikeleib:branches:Trunk for hacked meego-qml-launcher and meego-ux-daemon	01:45
w00t_	mikeleib: hmm, what'd you do to 'em? ;)	01:46
mikeleib	I have added your patches to launcher and added the hide() method	01:46
mikeleib	I killed the lock screen in the daemon	01:46
auke	CosmoHill: curvature of the earth is a bitch, but, a 10m pole gets you 10km Line of Sight...	01:46
w00t_	mikeleib: ! :)	01:46
w00t_	that sounds like some good changes	01:46
CosmoHill	oooo	01:46
w00t_	is the lockscreen stuff being upstreamed?	01:46
w00t_	or is it just a hack for now	01:46
mikeleib	nono	01:46
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mikeleib	I commented it out b/c I have a test harness that reboots the system and measures memory usage	01:47
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w00t_	ah, right	01:47
w00t_	(lucky)	01:47
* w00t_ has his fingers and 'top'		01:47
w00t_	:-P	01:47
* mikeleib would like to open source the harness (it's stupid shell script)		01:47
mikeleib	w00t_: top lies to you	01:47
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w00t_	yeah, I know the accuracy issues	01:48
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w00t_	but, it's a reasonable starting point	01:48
mikeleib	no.. it's not	01:48
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mikeleib	X and the buffer cache are colluding with top to lie to you about memory usage	01:48
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w00t_	nod	01:49
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mikeleib	to really measure it, you need to apply pressure to the kernel until it has to make a tough choice	01:49
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mikeleib	we have a program that mmaps and mlocks pages until swap happens	01:49
mikeleib	that's the trigger point where you are out of memory	01:49
mikeleib	then we reboot	01:49
w00t_	heh, that part on the n900 is easy, given how little ram it has :)	01:50
mikeleib	then we measure that point under different conditions (app running/app minimized/no app) and repeat	01:50
mikeleib	there's noise..	01:50
Venemo	hey w00t_, 256 MB RAM is plenty :P few years ago it was even good a desktop!	01:51
mikeleib	so.. for photos on my exopc, I see 501.5megs median free memory with the photos app running	01:51
w00t_	Venemo: it's a lot, but it's not a lot compared to newer hardware	01:51
Venemo	:)	01:51
mikeleib	and 521.5 median megs free with it minimized	01:51
mikeleib	std_dev is about 10 megs on each mesurement	01:52
mikeleib	16 samples each	01:52
thiago_home	echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches	01:53
mikeleib	yeah	01:54
mikeleib	gotta modify the script.. I also modify the swappiness and dirty times	01:54
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w00t_	Venemo: are you coming to SF, by the way?	01:55
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Venemo	w00t_, SF?	01:56
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w00t_	Venemo: meego conference, san francisco	01:56
wmarone	that reminds me, I need to change my reservations for that...	01:57
* w00t_ reads up on how to use perf		01:57
Venemo	w00t_, I'm just a student. I can't even afford the plane tickets.	01:57
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Venemo	w00t_, a single plane ticket from Budapest to SF costs about a monthly salary, so even if I had a job right now, I'd have issues with it.	01:59
w00t_	Venemo: is there no sponsorship options? I hadn't checked, but you could always apply for that, if so	01:59
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Venemo	w00t_, I haven't really checked. plus, I'm not sure if I have any exams or anything during that period. (which is likely)	02:00
w00t_	shame :)	02:00
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Venemo	I think it's even worse for MohammadAG, as his location is even further :P	02:01
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* w00t_ kicks perf_event_paranoid		02:04
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Venemo	w00t_, do you have an N900 with a MeeGo hardfp image?	02:05
w00t_	yes	02:05
Venemo	w00t_, and do you have a few minutes for me? :)	02:05
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w00t_	for n900 stuff? I can't run it right now, no	02:06
* CosmoHill wonders if MeeGo will work on the SE x10 Mini Pro		02:06
Venemo	walhava, can't run? how so?	02:06
w00t_	if you need help, probably	02:06
Venemo	tab fail.	02:06
w00t_	I'm just busy with other stuff atm, would have to context switch and go get it etc	02:06
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Venemo	w00t_, no problem, it's not urgent at all :)	02:06
w00t_	what's up, though	02:06
Venemo	I was curious about what performance would my little app run on hardfp	02:07
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Venemo	that's because I found that its performance bottleneck is probably the lots of fp operations in QGV	02:08
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DawnFoster	Venemo / w00t_: just FYI that people can still apply for travel sponsorship (paid flight / hotel) to attend the MeeGo Conference - it's an option during registration.	02:21
Venemo	DawnFoster, can you give me some details about this?	02:21
*** mikeleib_coffee is now known as mikeleib		02:22
DawnFoster	Venemo: sure ...	02:22
DawnFoster	from our registration page: The MeeGo project recognizes the importance of face-to-face interaction, and also realizes that not every participant can be funded by their employers to attend or can pay their own travel. To encourage quality collaboration, there is limited need-based travel assistance available to defray the cost of attending.	02:23
DawnFoster	Travel sponsorships will cover hotel and, optionally, airfare (for people not in SF Bay Area)	02:23
DawnFoster	To be eligible for travel assistance, you must: have some record of contribution and not work for a company who could pay for you to attend	02:24
sjokkis	i'm pretty bummed that i can't make the SF conference	02:24
DawnFoster	and agree to blog about the event	02:24
sjokkis	it's right between the first and second of my exams this semester	02:24
DawnFoster	sjokkis: ah bummer - I've heard similar complaints from other students.	02:25
sjokkis	DawnFoster: no one told me to blog about anything for the dublin conference. is this a new thing?	02:25
* CosmoHill finishes university on the 2nd of June		02:25
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DawnFoster	the timing is good for the project to align with release schedules	02:25
DawnFoster	sjokkis: yeah, that's new.	02:25
sjokkis	who is sponsoring this year? is nokia out?	02:25
DawnFoster	nokia has still been involved in the conference	02:26
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sjokkis	ok	02:26
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w00t_	I see btrfs is still just as screwed up on tablet as it is on the n900...	02:28
w00t_	x86, rather	02:28
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rustylynch	w00t_: do you use the virtual keyboard on your n900 install?	02:32
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rustylynch	or anyone else using the n900 install of meego-ux (i.e. qml) bits?	02:33
CosmoHill	night night	02:33
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rustylynch	curious if the keyboard orientation is tracking correctly	02:33
w00t_	yes	02:33
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rustylynch	w00t_: and that's after applying all the orientation changes?	02:34
rustylynch	i'm seeing where meegotouch's view of an angle differs with mine	02:35
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rustylynch	i.e. the keyboard opens 90 degrees off	02:35
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rustylynch	on the n900.... if you don't transform the screen, is the text in landscape or portrait?	02:36
w00t_	rustylynch: i haven't tried latest image, sage said that now we have some problems with orientation too though	02:37
w00t_	i swear, the more i look into orientation stuff, the more i'd rather leave it alone	02:38
rustylynch	yea, i'm thinking about just backing out the change to a branch	02:38
rustylynch	although... then i need to push a change to undo the 'fix' to the pegetron sensor :-<	02:38
w00t_	can you wait one more day for that? I'll have a look at how the n900 is tomorrow	02:39
w00t_	(won't right now as I'm poking performance stuff atm and near bed because my other half is nagging about my always staying up late)	02:39
w00t_	:P	02:40
rustylynch	unfortunately i have a 9am deadline to push stuff into Trunk:Testing	02:40
w00t_	bah, ok	02:40
w00t_	revert away, I don't mind	02:40
rustylynch	ok	02:40
w00t_	it's no good if it's broken, and it's my responsibility to fix it	02:40
w00t_	ooi, do you know if it's broken on the lenovo s10-whatever it is too?	02:40
w00t_	I have that, so I can test any changes I make there	02:41
rustylynch	there isn't an orientation sensor on that device	02:41
w00t_	..oh	02:41
w00t_	(that would explain why it isn't rotating, I just assumed it didn't have a sensor)	02:41
rustylynch	or if there is one, i can't find it	02:41
w00t_	+plugin	02:41
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w00t_	argh, 12.11% of the time being spent inside i915_dri.so, that's fun :-)	02:44
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w00t_	I really wonder if anyone actually uses btrfs images, and if so, how they manage to get anything done	02:59
w00t_	it keeps locking up for me, an awful lot	02:59
w00t_	rustylynch: btw, googling suggests s10-3t does have an accelerometer, just that it's off by default	03:00
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rustylynch	the stickers on the device sure make it look like there is something	03:01
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ali1234	it does have an accelerometer	03:01
ali1234	it's only 2 axis though	03:01
ali1234	and there is no linux driver	03:02
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ali1234	i wrote everything i know here: http://wiki.meego.com/Devices/Ideapad#Accelerometer	03:02
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rdesfo	Is the meego netbook project still being worked on?	04:21
rdesfo	I read an article online saying that it wasn't	04:22
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rdesfo	hello	04:47
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wmarone	it's a bit quiet right now	04:49
wmarone	better luck earlier in the day, especially if you're in the US	04:49
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rustylynch	there still is work happening on netbook	05:01
rustylynch	for a while people were thinking tablets would eat the netbook market, but the market is heating up for low end netbooks	05:02
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berndhs	I think people will want tablets with keyboards :)	05:04
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rdesfo	rustylynch:thanks	05:20
rdesfo	berndhs: I pretty much have a table with a keyboard with the ASUS EEE PC convertible tablet. only problem with it is that it's default OS is win7	05:22
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* gabrbedd loves convertable tablet/netbooks much more than tablets.		05:26
gabrbedd	However, the Netbook UX wasn't all that great for touch, and the devs didn't seem interested in making it great for touch.	05:27
rdesfo	ya, there's no way to get to the bar at the top of the screen when I flip the screen arround to use as a tablet	05:28
gabrbedd	rdesfo: Actually, if you touch your finger to the very very top it'll come down.	05:30
* gabrbedd got pretty good at doing that		05:30
rdesfo	ya, it doesn't always work. I guess I still need to practice :)	05:30
gabrbedd	The trick is to start your finger just a tad below... and then slide it up to the y=0 position.	05:30
gabrbedd	If the application is in fullscreen mode, it won't work. Also, if your calibration is off then YMMV. :-)	05:31
rdesfo	you know...It works well if I roll my finger to the edge of the screen	05:32
rdesfo	do you have xournal or anything for writing installed on yours?	05:33
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gabrbedd	rdesfo: No, our company is targetting tablets... so we left the Netbook UX in February for the Handset UX. That's been painful... but you know.	05:50
rdesfo	:)	05:50
berndhs	i seriously thing a compromise machine, tablet+keyboard could be really good	05:52
rdesfo	do you know what the plans are for the web accounts?	05:52
gabrbedd	rdesfo: Funny, though... just last week the handset ux was getting really nice on x86.... and then some Tablet-related changes re-b0rked it.	05:52
rdesfo	:(	05:52
gabrbedd	berndhs: I totally agree, 100%. I couldn't convince our sales/marketing arm, though.	05:53
rdesfo	that's too bad. I wish they would just something out there	05:53
gabrbedd	The real problem is... it's actually /hard/ to sell a convertable. People just don't get it until they've played with it.	05:53
berndhs	removable keybd type of thing maybe, some deal like that	05:53
gabrbedd	No matter how many times you say, "It's a touchscreen... cool, eh?" They just don't get it.	05:54
gabrbedd	But show them a tablet --- and it's instant cool.	05:54
rdesfo	ya, it's kinda funny that tablets explode now that the touch screen has been out for a decade	05:54
berndhs	well yeah marketing did its job there :)	05:54
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rdesfo	are there any plans to add more web accounts to the v1.2?	05:56
gabrbedd	Touchscreen prices have gone way down.	05:56
gabrbedd	rdesfo: I have no idea.	05:56
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rdesfo	ya, the battery life is pretty amazing too. I've used the netbook for a few hours without any issue	05:58
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Termana	morning	06:30
berndhs	yo	06:31
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timoph	morning	07:14
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bkalinga	Package gconf-2.0 was not found in the pkg-config search path.	08:11
bkalinga	while building source inside qemu	08:12
bkalinga	which package i need to install	08:12
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wmarone	\o/ my touchscreen works	08:37
Stskeeps	\o/	08:37
wmarone	now to figure out how to port this config over to meego, and put the tablet UI on this	08:38
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mikhas	rustylynch, I am bit worried about https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15089 - as if these patches removed compositing support from the compositor ...	09:00
_MeeeGoBot_	Bug 15089 nor, Undecided, ---, x2rich, NEW, meegotouch based virtual keyboard does not open as expected	09:00
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MohammadAG	Venemo, I have exams, and that's ignoring the fact that the tickets are $1600	10:58
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Corsac	meego spring conf?	10:59
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MohammadAG	SF	11:00
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Venemo	MohammadAG, yeah, but DawnFoster told me that there are sponsorship options. and if anyone should get that, that's you!	11:09
Stskeeps	the downside is that you have to make a payout first and then reimburse	11:09
Stskeeps	:P	11:09
MohammadAG	Venemo, there's an exam on 23 and another on 25	11:11
Venemo	Stskeeps, OUCH!	11:11
Venemo	MohammadAG, well then get them to pay your trip back and forth :P	11:12
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lbt	http://mail.google.com/mail/help/motion.html	12:18
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Viltapi	lbt: hehe nice one. also, check http://www.opensuse.org/	12:25
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nid0	el reg's been fairly subtle: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/01/seagate_triple/	12:35
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bkalinga	I am getting a problem in meego-sdk-update-target	12:53
bkalinga	can some one point out whats going wrong	12:53
bkalinga	Error: The meego-handset-ia32-madde-sysroot-1.1.99.0.20110329.5.conf has been installed. A different name should be provided.	12:54
bkalinga	It is referring to: /usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/cache/madde.conf.d/meego-handset-ia32-madde-sysroot-1.1.99.0.20110329.5.conf	12:56
bkalinga	shall I delete it manually?	12:56
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andreizro	hy. I'm having some problems compiling glibc on ARM. I am using MeeGo 1.1.90.5.20110301.7. The qemu installed on the worker is 0.14.0. Here is the error: http://pastie.org/1743070 .... any clues?	13:09
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Venemo	a very nice joke: http://www.opensuse.org/	14:57
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CosmoHill	Venemo: same home page for all 5	14:58
Venemo	lol, that's even funnier! :D	14:58
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Venemo	CosmoHill, a nice extension to that: http://skvidal.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/new-linux-distro-and-pkg-manager/ :D	15:03
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andreizro	can somebody tell me if I need binfmt misc support to allow qemu to build armv7el ??	16:05
Aard	yes	16:06
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Stskeeps	yes	16:07
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mikhas	jbos, can you compile inputmethod framework on meego yourself?	16:11
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villev	fyi http://confusingdevelopers.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/intels-qt-quick-components-available-for-ubuntu/	16:45
villev	pickers (date etc) don't work properly	16:45
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cherrot	Why my QEMU cant't display the fonts? (black boxes instead...)	16:46
cherrot	ATI GPU + Ubuntu10.10	16:47
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CosmoHill	who's a moderator on the forum?	16:50
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Stskeeps	click "report"	16:50
CosmoHill	yeah I just remembered that	16:50
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ssirkia	Hi! Anybody familiar with pulseaudio-setting-mfld in gitorious? Do you/they really want changes to .spec and .yaml trough gitorious? The files are there.	17:35
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Stskeeps	sorry to everyone that was just forcibly exited from #meego-dev :) please read http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2011-March/003822.html	17:38
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CosmoHill	by the sounds of it, that forced exit was probably the most activity it's seen	17:42
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: could you set the topic to something like "Please join #meego"	17:43
Stskeeps	i have	17:43
CosmoHill	good	17:43
Stskeeps	also it's +s now	17:43
Stskeeps	:P	17:43
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CosmoHill	secret or silent?	17:43
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Stskeeps	secret	17:44
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CosmoHill	okay, now if only you could do that to #meego...	17:44
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Stskeeps	we discussed this :)	17:44
CosmoHill	hence the ...	17:45
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ssirkia	question 2: I see ' echo "ia32_icdk" > /etc/boardname-override ' in meego-handset-ia32-mtf-1.1.99.1.20110331.81.ks but not in meego-tablet-ia32-mfld-1.1.99.1.20110331.81.ks So what's up with that?	17:50
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Stskeeps	ssirkia: supposedly there's a bug with iCDK DMI	17:51
Stskeeps	and tablet prolly has a better DMI	17:51
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ssirkia	right - didn't realize that tablet may be another HW.	17:56
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w00t_	rustylynch: hi, did things go back to working when you reverted the orientation changes?	19:13
DawnFoster	stskeeps: ping	19:13
Stskeeps	dawpong	19:14
Stskeeps	DawnFoster: pong	19:14
DawnFoster	Stskeeps: well, it's the first of the month, and I'm starting my metrics :)	19:14
DawnFoster	any chance you can run the irc stats in the next couple of days?	19:15
DawnFoster	(no big rush)	19:15
* w00t_ should set up public stats for meego sometime		19:15
w00t_	I already run some for some Qt channels	19:15
DawnFoster	dneary is working on automating everything	19:16
Stskeeps	DawnFoster: will do	19:16
DawnFoster	http://wiki.meego.com/Metrics/Dashboard	19:16
DawnFoster	Stskeeps: thanks!	19:16
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dneary	DawnFoster, Thanks for the info	19:29
dneary	On my way out the door to strip wallpaper all evening, but I'll see you next week in SFO	19:30
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DawnFoster	dneary: have fun? :)	19:31
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rustylynch	w00t_: yes, after reverting then orientation changes across the board are working again	19:58
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w00t_	rustylynch: ok, sorry for the hassle	20:01
w00t_	I will investigate what's going on on the n900 end	20:01
rustylynch	well... i think the bug is still valid, it's just a matter if getting all the moving parts to agree on the definition	20:01
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w00t_	easier said than done :)	20:03
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Stskeeps	DawnFoster: http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/irc/data/irssistats.mar2011.html	20:04
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w00t_	Stskeeps: no #meego-arm then?	20:05
thiago	rustylynch: important info, please pass it along to your team: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/04/01/qt-hidden-gems/	20:07
thiago	:-)	20:07
* rustylynch looks		20:07
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Stskeeps	w00t_: http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/irc/data/irssistats.arm.mar2011.html	20:07
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: could you make is so we can view the parent directory?	20:08
w00t_	thiago: grin	20:08
thiago	w00t_: :-)	20:08
* thiago needs to configure his webserver to reply with error 418		20:08
w00t_	I am indeed a teapot	20:09
w00t_	however did you guess	20:09
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rustylynch	nice... didn't know about the -fkeep-programmers-inline, would be useful with a '-fread-your-damn-email' flag	20:12
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* w00t_ could make a joke about another flag starting with '-f' that would be useful during heated technical decisions, but refrains		20:16
w00t_	*discussions rather	20:16
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arjan	hmm no flames on the latest architecture change mail	20:18
arjan	maybe people think it's an april 1st joke	20:19
CosmoHill	hey arjan	20:19
w00t_	arjan: it's also a bit less radical which helps :)	20:20
thiago	arjan: it sounded to me very well reasoned, no need for flaming	20:20
thiago	"hey, we don't think they're mature, so they stay but we don't want to commit to them just yet"	20:20
w00t_	"we want to let these components mature, so we're not making them mandatory"	20:20
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* w00t_ wonders why his USB disk is not showing up for him to write an image to it		20:21
CosmoHill	cos it remembers the last time you used it?	20:21
thiago	arjan: are you coming to LCS next week?	20:22
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w00t_	rustylynch: did the fixed packages make it into T:T by the way?	20:26
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w00t_	or, somewhere on obs I can build an image against?	20:26
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CosmoHill	for april falls MeeGo should have changed the converance location or date	20:29
rustylynch	w00t_: yes, all my updates are now in T:T	20:31
DawnFoster	Stskeeps: thanks!	20:31
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Stskeeps	arjan: nothing in that mail that isn't somehow based in reality at least - i'm personally missing a bit how the architecture diagram actually looks right now	20:36
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Stskeeps	arjan: then there's of course the whole flux of project governance (who's in what roles), but that's a project-wide problem not specific to architecture	20:36
arjan	we'll have a new diagram in a week or so	20:36
Stskeeps	good	20:36
arjan	no point doing halfway ones ;)	20:36
Stskeeps	and in addition to that, to prevent people to do incompatible branches to fill the roles of those components, to somehow talk about the intended direction/roadmap of the features they cover	20:37
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Stskeeps	(i do know it's not included in compliance)	20:38
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auke	Stskeeps: wth, you kicking me from channels? XD	20:40
timoph	:D	20:40
Stskeeps	auke: sorry, did actually note this in advance on meego-community@ :)	20:41
* timoph should do the same in -qa-tools		20:41
Stskeeps	hopefully it'll make sure people don't come to a dead channel	20:41
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auke	Stskeeps: they will	20:49
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auke	we should clear users in here once in a while too, lol	20:55
w00t_	auke: screw it, let's close down meego and start a new project	20:56
w00t_	there's too many people here! :-P	20:56
TSCHAKeee	haha	20:56
* TSCHAKeee gets ready to test Tablet UX on the Archos 9		20:56
* CosmoHill sets fire to octave		20:56
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vgrade	TSCHAKeee, hi	20:59
TSCHAKeee	rofl, ears burning? ;)	20:59
TSCHAKeee	hey Martin.	20:59
vgrade	TSCHAKeee, hows things	20:59
TSCHAKeee	;)	20:59
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TSCHAKeee	good, am taking some idle time from work to cobble together a tablet ux ks for archos9 just to see if it comes up	21:00
vgrade	nice one, seen the N900 and vega videos	21:00
TSCHAKeee	came back from an extended date/sexcapade in Dublin all nice and rested.	21:00
TSCHAKeee	yes, I did..very nice :)	21:00
TSCHAKeee	is the Vega using acceleration? or is it just drawing really well?	21:01
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vgrade	just frame buffer	21:01
vgrade	have not managed to get any perfomance out of the panels though, still a slide show there.	21:02
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vgrade	A9 should rock with tablet UX	21:03
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vgrade	panels idea is a little what we talked about, one QML app per panel for mce	21:04
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maligor	vgrade, tablet ux checks for intel products ;-P	21:05
maligor	jk	21:06
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TSCHAKeee	I'm really hoping now that Tablet UX is available	21:07
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TSCHAKeee	that I can start developing the prototype ideas for a new orbiter	21:07
vgrade	maligor, what do you mean checks?	21:07
GAN900	Going to Mars?	21:07
maligor	vgrade, it's intel code	21:07
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w00t_	mnementh: were you going to merge async to libseaside master at some point, btw?	21:08
maligor	and jk means just kidding	21:08
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maligor	and tablet ux is very raw still	21:08
TSCHAKeee	is it all running on a sort of generic QML engine?	21:08
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w00t_	TSCHAKeee: see: meego-qml-launcher	21:09
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vgrade	yup, all code is on gitorious	21:09
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gabrbedd	Stskeeps: Do you know if mdecorator is still broken (I haven't checked last night's build)	21:10
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Stskeeps	gabrbedd: i think it's still being discussed, it really wonders me that they pulled out entire decorator code for tablet ux	21:11
Stskeeps	i mean, something's wrong if not starting mdecorator doesn't do the trick :)	21:12
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Stskeeps	gabrbedd: it's a patch that can be disabled, btw	21:13
gabrbedd	Stskeeps: It looked to me like it broke mdecorator on the Handset UX... which IMHO is a major party foul	21:13
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arjan	who's working on the handset ux nowadays ?	21:13
gabrbedd	(That is, Handset UX, too)	21:13
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Stskeeps	arjan: well, the thing is noone actually said anything about handset in ages - or what the new UX's goal is in general	21:14
maligor	I'd guess intel is pushing tablet now ;P	21:14
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maligor	and nokia people are wondering what they should be doing	21:14
GAN900	arjan, well, the whole unilateral dictate-from-Intel, behind-closed-doors, evidence-free way the last one went down was probably your core problem. :)	21:15
Stskeeps	there's no word if 'tablet UX' is supposed to be the handset one too :)	21:15
maligor	Stskeeps, it wouldn't work	21:15
gabrbedd	arjan: our company hansen't decided between Handset UX and Tablet UX.	21:15
Stskeeps	maligor: was fairly decent for me	21:15
timoph	why? I though it already works	21:15
maligor	Stskeeps, yeah, but even with the touchscreen netbook I have at work, it's ... too ... wide?	21:16
maligor	maybe if it was reorder to center instead of left	21:16
maligor	but still, it's massive	21:16
Stskeeps	arjan: if it's possible, 5 lines talking about the UX purpose on a mailing list would solve a lot of problems :)	21:16
gabrbedd	arjan: Tablet UX broke mdecorator, and I kind of like the whole array of apps thing.	21:16
maligor	is the rotation issue in the tablet ux still there?-)	21:17
arjan	I'll argue that mdecorator was already broken, just in different ways ;)	21:17
arjan	it's damn high up in the crash top 10	21:17
Stskeeps	maligor: yes, but that's being investigated - it isn't as simple as it looks :)	21:17
arjan	as in ... number one in the list with 4x more crashes than anything else	21:17
maligor	it's certainly amusing :-P	21:17
maligor	or frustrating if you have to use it	21:17
arjan	(in case people care, this is the crash top 5:	21:18
arjan	430 Guilty function: main in /usr/bin/mdecorator	21:18
arjan	111 Guilty function: QGLWidget::event in /usr/lib/libQtOpenGL.so.4	21:18
arjan	61 Guilty function: ?? in meego-app-im	21:18
arjan	55 Guilty function: main in /usr/lib/tumbler-1/tumblerd	21:18
arjan	48 Guilty function: ?? in /usr/lib/meego-app-browser/meego-app-browser	21:18
arjan	45 Guilty function: eglCreateImageKHR in /usr/lib/libEGL.so.1	21:18
arjan	)	21:18
gabrbedd	arjan: Agreed... but it /existed/ (which can't be said for Tablet)...	21:18
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mnementh	w00t_: I think i was waiting on dialer to finish testing. i'll double check and then yes	21:18
gabrbedd	arjan: And I can't get a straight answer on whether or not Tablet will have a replacement.	21:18
mnementh	about to push async to tablet after we debug some proxy model issues	21:19
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mnementh	err not tablet sorry but the UX git repos	21:19
mnementh	UX is handset tablet ivi... i believe	21:20
Stskeeps	and that's the clear message that's not there :)	21:20
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thiago	arjan: why does your top 5 contain 6 entries? :-)	21:21
Stskeeps	because at the moment, people don't know if there's a seperate handset 'UX' under works, since it's called 'tablet UX', or it's all 'UX' for multiple verticals :)	21:21
arjan	thiago: because I can't count when I cut and paste	21:22
arjan	I actually have a top 50 that I pasted from	21:22
thiago	arjan: I'm told you're the one who did the benchmarking of the performance penalty when using -fPIC	21:22
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arjan	I collected most of the data, I didn't do the actual typing to kick the benchmark	21:22
arjan	-fPIC is about 20 to 25% on 32 bit x86 ;-(	21:22
arjan	(which is a universal range that is used and confirmed all the time here)	21:23
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arjan	if you want to know where in the 20 to 25% range something will hit specifically we need to talk compiler and CPU versions ;-)	21:23
thiago	right	21:24
thiago	but my question is: was this tested with a regular application that has anywhere from 30 to 100 libraries loaded?	21:24
mnementh	Stskeeps: it is meant for handset tablet and ivi or whatever device. i currently test my code on a tablet and handset	21:24
Stskeeps	mnementh: thanks	21:24
thiago	I don't doubt that -fPIC code is slower due to the missing register and to the indirect addressing	21:25
arjan	thiago: pretty much; I've seen numbers in this range from browser benchmarks to .. to ..	21:25
arjan	this is the overhead number if the majority of executed code is in the .so	21:25
thiago	but I'm wondering if the impact is really relevant if most of the work is actually in the libraries	21:25
arjan	if half your work is in the main binary and half in library... thumb in the air number would be 12% cost	21:25
arjan	but libraries MUST be -fPIC	21:26
thiago	yes	21:26
arjan	you can do some things to make it less costly	21:26
mnementh	Stskeeps: there are design flaws on some things when you use them on a handset. i pulled out the index bar for contacts because on a handset it was unusable. i'm about to add another version back in. if you find issues with the code on a handset, file a bug. i know i need to add sms, im, call links into contacts. trying to figure out the best way to determine the difference between any generic dialer and tablet (runtime or compile time) deci	21:26
arjan	like static leaf functions inside .c files will have less overhead potentially	21:26
thiago	sorry, I didn't get this: if half the work is in the libraries, the impact is 12%	21:26
thiago	if it's majority in the libraries, it's 20-25%	21:27
thiago	compared to what? Everything in the app compiled without -fPIC?	21:27
Stskeeps	mnementh: you got cut off in the end - but anyway, on the n900 we had UX running quite quickly after released, but yes, we'll feed back issues	21:27
gabrbedd	arjan: I wonder if your libEGL crash is related to bug 13274.	21:27
_MeeeGoBot_	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13274 cri, High, ---, peng.li, WAIT, mcompositor (Mesa, EGL) crashes on unchecked pointer	21:27
arjan	thiago: yup	21:27
Stskeeps	mnementh: one issue i see at the moment is that there doesn't seem to be lower-resolution (800x480) themes for UX, so that may be a performance hit	21:27
arjan	compared to effectively a static binary	21:27
arjan	(well not glibc static, but you know what I mean)	21:28
Stskeeps	mnementh: due to need to resize a lot	21:28
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w00t_	there is something of a performance hit	21:28
thiago	arjan: ok, so I have to ask: considering the libraries are there, what's the impact of having the app compiled as -fPIC, compared to the same app without?	21:28
w00t_	and also a memory hit	21:28
w00t_	Stskeeps: theme adds about 5mb onto meego-ux-daemon process	21:28
mnementh	Stskeeps: the bugzillas are sort of in chaos IMHO so just file a bug as best as you can categorize it. as long as anything Contact related has my or Kaitlin's name on it we will see it. :)	21:28
Stskeeps	yep	21:28
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TSCHAKeee	vgrade: do I have to use the emgd against the automotive adaptation kernel?	21:29
mnementh	Stskeeps: file a bug on the theme :) and i will mention this to designers for you	21:29
Stskeeps	mnementh: thank you	21:29
arjan	thiago: you mean PIE.. well so that depends on how much work is done in the app	21:29
thiago	arjan: yes, PIE	21:29
arjan	like for a browser, most work is done in the main binary (because of the pic cost, they moved the work to the main binary)	21:29
thiago	arjan: the reason I'm asking: yesterday we were discussing the booster/kdeinit hack (fork+dlopen of the app)	21:29
thiago	someone said you had said it was a bad idea due to the performance cost	21:30
arjan	that breaks many other things	21:30
w00t_	arjan: meego-ux-daemon (for instance) does not do a lot of work	21:30
arjan	like all security frameworks	21:30
w00t_	which is where we were discussing this about	21:30
arjan	because it's been proven (NSA level academic proof) that the only time you can safely assign a security context is at exec time	21:30
w00t_	sorry, qml-launcher	21:30
arjan	so fork+dlopen is an invalid optimization for that reason alone.	21:30
thiago	right	21:30
arjan	never mind performance	21:30
mnementh	Stskeeps: i passed your comment on low-res asset alternative on to designers for you and will let you know if i hear back	21:30
thiago	so what we need is an improved loader	21:31
arjan	thiago: do we have proof the loader is at fault ?	21:31
arjan	for the overhead?	21:31
arjan	also we need 1) less symbols	21:31
arjan	and 2) prove that it's really link time	21:31
thiago	yes, definitely	21:31
vgrade	TSCHAKeee, yes mate, are you going to take the latest EMGD	21:31
arjan	since we do prelink everything.. linking is not all that expensive	21:31
thiago	w00t spent a lot of time reducing the symbol exports of some libs	21:31
arjan	unless you do millions and millions	21:32
thiago	prelinking is also a good thing	21:32
w00t_	not relevent to this	21:32
w00t_	I do plan to do the same thing for a lot of these libraries though	21:32
thiago	but C++ does have thousands of relocations, even in simple libs	21:32
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: whatever emgd-bin points to, yeah, i think that's 1893?	21:32
vgrade	TSCHAKeee, you could use other kernel but you would need the EMGD patch from automotive	21:32
w00t_	assuming I ever figure out how to get a sane development environment setup	21:32
arjan	thiago: one thing I've been thinking about is to glob all qt libs into one .so	21:32
arjan	then at least you don't need to do the cross .so linking	21:32
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: ok, just checking.	21:32
arjan	(and we can also avoid PLT hops between them anyway)	21:33
thiago	arjan: hmm	21:33
arjan	in practice apps get the whole lot of them anyway	21:33
thiago	arjan: never mind the BC breakage there, but that's an idea	21:33
arjan	(maybe not ALL, but there's a common set of maybe 8 or so that are joint)	21:33
arjan	BC breakage is inevitable at this point to get something to really perform	21:33
thiago	it can be done on ELF	21:33
thiago	without BC breakage, that is.	21:33
arjan	we need to get over that first, get it working, and at the end see if we can put BC back without damage	21:33
thiago	but we have bigger fish to fry before	21:34
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thiago	swap out the X11 code with Lighthouse on Wayland, bring OpenGL in (so one less lib)	21:34
w00t_	swapping out X11 removes a lot of libraries	21:35
w00t_	not one	21:35
thiago	move the widgets out for non-desktop/netbook	21:35
w00t_	composite, fixes, ...	21:35
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vgrade	TSCHAKeee, I don't think anyone outside intel boards have had 1893 runnig. lbt tried with the 1893 userspace with my joggler (older automtive) kernel without much success. So you do need a matched pair.	21:35
* TSCHAKeee facepalms		21:36
TSCHAKeee	which one would that be?	21:36
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* w00t_ runs off to eat		21:36
* lbt never got round to a kernel rebuild		21:37
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mnementh	Stskeeps: We used to have different themes assets for the different devices but we haven't kept up with the lower-res versions so the answer is... there is a plan for it... and i will keep hounding them for you. :)	21:38
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* Stskeeps heads off for some badminton		21:41
Stskeeps	bbl	21:41
* mnementh heads to lunch		21:41
vgrade	TSCHAKeee, latest is in https://build.meego.com/package/show?package=kernel-adaptation-intel-automotive&project=Trunk, https://build.meego.com/package/show?package=emgd-bin&project=Trunk%3Anon-oss	21:42
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wathek	Hi all	21:51
wathek	what's the difference between the pan gesture and the swipe gesture?	21:51
CosmoHill	I'd imaging that "pan" moves the image in that direction where as swipe moves to the next or previous image	21:53
CosmoHill	"pan" would be for zoomed in images	21:54
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wathek	I see	21:54
wathek	yep	21:54
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TSCHAKeee	vgrade: linux-2.6.35-emgd-0002-1893-build.patch	22:06
rustylynch	somebody remind me... what's the way we are suppose to annotate a bug # in changelogs, i seem to recall something like BEA#XXXX	22:06
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: that is in the latest automotive adaptation	22:06
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: so it looks like i have no choice.	22:06
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TSCHAKeee	vgrade: I was able to get it up to an xterm, but the uxlaunched qml environment wouldn't come up	22:07
rustylynch	hmm.... i see use of BMC#XXXX	22:07
gabrbedd	rustylynch: I think I saw it doc'd on the wiki. Possibly in the Packaging/Guidelines	22:08
lbt	FYI: I'm changing some ldap settings on c. OBS - it may affect osc/login briefly	22:08
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vgrade	TSCHAKeee, thats the patch	22:12
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: yup, it looks like it's matched to 1893	22:13
vgrade	TSCHAKeee, you get a black screen?	22:13
TSCHAKeee	i'm building my own copy in my repo	22:13
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: i can get an xterm	22:13
vgrade	I mean when you launch tablet ux	22:13
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: but if i let uxlaunch go, it just sits at a black screen, and if I ctrl-alt-F1 to the console, uxlaunch barfs and tries to relaunch X	22:13
vgrade	try tapping, swiping on the right hand side of the screen in the half way up	22:14
vgrade	lock screen is invisible	22:15
vgrade	what ks did you base your buld off	22:15
TSCHAKeee	the one in trunk/latest .. 0330	22:15
TSCHAKeee	20110330	22:15
lbt	rustylynch: http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Guidelines#Changelogs	22:16
lbt	rustylynch: been documented forever... totally ignored	22:16
vgrade	TSCHAKeee, good to know we have latest EMGD up. That one should have working libva as well	22:17
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lbt	and another of those "meego isn't thinking about it's customers" issues ... why are features called FEA# ? don't you think vendors will have their own FEA# too ...	22:18
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: nope, nothing seems to be happening... of course, show cursor is off now so i can't see shit :P	22:18
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lbt	rustylynch: BMC==bugs.meego.com	22:19
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vgrade	TSCHAKeee, try tapping swyping all around there have been some orientation issues	22:19
TSCHAKeee	ew	22:20
TSCHAKeee	looks like only thing running is mcompositor	22:20
TSCHAKeee	there should be other things running	22:20
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rustylynch	lbt: ok, that makes sense... a bit obscure, but makes sense	22:20
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vgrade	TSCHAKeee, thats not right, you should have meego-ux-daemon, that kicks everthing else off	22:21
vgrade	sec, while I boot the vega	22:22
gabrbedd	TSCHAKeee: Did you build your image with `--pkgmgr=yum` ??	22:22
TSCHAKeee	gabrbedd: nope i didn't.	22:22
gabrbedd	TSCHAKeee: I think I had something similar happen... and that fixed it.	22:22
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TSCHAKeee	freaky ok	22:22
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TSCHAKeee	gabrbedd: as option to mic-image-creator ?	22:23
lbt	rustylynch: was supposed to increase the reliability of automated changelog->bug tools	22:24
lbt	but since we can't even link a changelog entry to a particular rpm file ... well...	22:24
arjan	lbt: which is fiction anyway	22:24
lbt	arjan: what's fiction?	22:25
arjan	that changlog->tools things actually work	22:25
lbt	ROFL	22:25
arjan	or changelog -> automatic statistics reporting	22:25
lbt	we ran the whole thing in Nokia	22:25
lbt	it worked perfectly	22:25
gabrbedd	TSCHAKeee: yes.	22:25
arjan	it's putting the work on a lot of engineers to save one program manager from having to do work	22:25
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lbt	no, it's not	22:25
arjan	lbt: it works in a completely closed system and by putting all the load on the engineers not the PMs	22:26
lbt	it's ensuring that developers who make small errors have them caught early	22:26
lbt	it ensures that you can focus on real issues	22:26
lbt	take a look at why packages are rejected	22:26
lbt	most can be caught by tools	22:26
arjan	I know it's extremely frustrating	22:26
arjan	I built most of those tools in a previous life	22:26
lbt	then the RE guys can actually focus on using their brains	22:27
arjan	but we also make the bar too high	22:27
lbt	yeah - I build them for Nokia ... but you know that	22:27
arjan	we reject things for nitpicking stuff too much as well	22:27
lbt	and by the way... who is "we"?	22:27
lbt	MeeGo?	22:27
arjan	we as 'the whole meego project'	22:27
lbt	including the vendors?	22:27
arjan	whatever goes into meego.com	22:28
lbt	who very rarely get considered	22:28
lbt	this is one of my major frustrations with meego	22:28
lbt	we/you don't consider how vendors are supposed to use it	22:28
arjan	define vendor	22:28
arjan	OSV or OEM ?	22:28
lbt	both	22:28
lbt	mainly OEM here	22:28
arjan	well meego IS an OSV	22:28
arjan	but well	22:28
lbt	Nokia? LGE?	22:29
arjan	to some degree you are right, but also to some degree their influence is proportional to the amount of work put in	22:29
lbt	sure you have elite engineers in MeeGo (and not that many .... less experienced ones)	22:29
arjan	we (Intel) are working with (unnamed) OEM on a product just fine	22:29
arjan	and that seems to work out quite well	22:29
lbt	but companies need to build product using their hired workforce	22:29
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lbt	and they need to automate and check	22:29
lbt	having this in meego is eating your own dog food	22:30
TSCHAKeee	damn my mic isn't new enough	22:30
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lbt	and yes I'm talking about the whole BOSS vapourware thing	22:30
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lbt	we don't put enough effort into thinking how vendor e2e works - and the tools they need to manage repos	22:31
arjan	if only there were 48 hours in a day and 8 days in a week and I'd redo the tooling I did in the previous job	22:31
lbt	nod	22:31
lbt	I would like to use some experience you have there to make BOSS based automation work better	22:31
maligor	I think what you learn from android is that the OEM's will mess up the codebase so it's totally incompatible	22:31
maligor	and then they say they can't update it because the hardware isn't compatible	22:32
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lbt	well, my focus is on being able to present a rational and viable tooling suite	22:32
lbt	not "thou shalt"	22:32
gabrbedd	What is BOSS?	22:33
CosmoHill	what about STFU?	22:33
lbt	it runs scripts one after the other using AMQP to ensure reliable processes	22:33
CosmoHill	Software Tools For U	22:33
lbt	http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Infrastructure/BOSS	22:33
maligor	lbt, you mean to help them mess it up faster for the product, heh	22:34
lbt	and arjan "all the load" ... spelling bug# in a consistent way ?	22:34
gabrbedd	lbt: thanks	22:34
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arjan	lbt: it's not the spelling of a bug number if a bug already exists	22:35
arjan	but the stupidity of having to file a bug if none exists...	22:35
arjan	it all adds up.	22:36
lbt	well hold on	22:36
lbt	that's different	22:36
lbt	that's a meego process	22:36
w00t_	that is admittedly annoying	22:36
lbt	not a vendor process	22:36
arjan	if you're fixing a bug, mentioning it I am fine with.	22:36
lbt	bug-1073 you mean ?	22:36
lbt	come on bug bot	22:36
lbt	bug NOK#1019	22:36
lbt	bug NOK #1019	22:36
lbt	bug BMC#1019	22:37
w00t_	bug 1073	22:37
berndhs	but 1019	22:37
lbt	oh, I guess it's off	22:37
_MeeeGoBot_	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1073 nor, Undecided, 1.0, michael.meeks, RESO DUPLICATE, Unable to add new Tasks (all languages, including English)	22:37
w00t_	just 'bug number' :p	22:37
lbt	your bugzilla or mine?	22:37
lbt	so yes, it helps to be consistent about how you spell a bug	22:37
lbt	and in nokia we had rules about work that did actually result in shipped products	22:38
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maligor	but nokia had a strong background on closed systems	22:40
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lbt	maligor: well, the products were closed, but they were built by OSS type people	22:41
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maligor	yeah, but I mean symbian as the 'background'	22:41
lbt	and they used OSS technology and principles	22:41
lbt	nah, not really	22:41
lbt	all the Maemo was Debian	22:41
maligor	maemo/meego was relatively recent in nokia history	22:41
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w00t_	maligor: it's also what lbt is talking about ;)	22:41
lbt	yes, but it's very discrete in nokia	22:42
lbt	and not tarnished by S	22:42
w00t_	symbian doesn't really come into it	22:42
maligor	yeah, but I mean company rules and operation	22:42
lbt	so it's an engineering group who've done this for 7 years and shipped real debian/OSS based products	22:42
maligor	albeit I don't know internals, and I've heard they gave too much power to the engineers ;P	22:42
lbt	yes they're in a corporate (like intel)	22:42
lbt	indeed - you can't have it both ways	22:43
lbt	so the point is ... there are things they learnt	22:43
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lbt	the risk now is that due to some douche many mgmt levels up... these passionate engineers are labelled as WP7 freaks	22:43
maligor	isn't there a difference with intel however.. nokia sold products to consumers	22:44
lbt	and anything coming out of nokia is dismissed	22:44
lbt	maligor: yes... that is the point exactly	22:44
lbt	meego needs to understand what vendors need	22:44
lbt	and vendors == nokia	22:44
lbt	so nokia's "concepts" are what will drive vendor thinking	22:45
maligor	I'm not as confident as you are about that	22:45
lbt	well, this is an irc chat - nuances aren't here	22:45
lbt	but I think they will assess meego and see a lack of bug tracking and other 'good practice' and feel worried	22:46
lbt	note "feel"	22:46
maligor	you're too engineer centric	22:46
lbt	!	22:47
lbt	I'm manager centric	22:47
lbt	engineering manager, sure	22:47
maligor	well, engineering manager would be the same thing	22:47
lbt	so, given the context of the chat, what makes you say that?	22:47
maligor	"lack of bug tracking and other 'good practices'"	22:48
lbt	yes...	22:48
maligor	no, they won't	22:48
maligor	quite frankly, marketing is all too often oblivious to this	22:48
lbt	depends who "they" is and what they're assesing	22:48
maligor	on both sides	22:48
lbt	heh	22:48
lbt	when assess something like meego you have the marketing guys in the bar and the engineers by the whiteboard	22:49
maligor	I've known some engineers who went into marketing and they were really good	22:49
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maligor	but most just aren't	22:49
lbt	when they get back to base they discuss and consider	22:49
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lbt	this is nothing to do with marketing	22:49
lbt	where "this" is the conversation I was in :)	22:50
maligor	but it does	22:50
lbt	no, it doesn't :)	22:51
lbt	MeeGo does, for sure	22:51
maligor	you don't need a perfect engineered system to sell the system	22:51
lbt	agreed	22:51
maligor	the engineers will want that	22:51
lbt	good ones won't	22:51
lbt	they'll want a flexible one	22:52
lbt	they'll want a framework	22:52
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lbt	some consistency	22:52
maligor	isn't that the perfect one then?	22:52
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lbt	well no	22:52
lbt	framework is almost, by definition, incomplete	22:53
maligor	well, I'd say that that a raw framework isn't a good idea, even from good engineers perspective	22:54
lbt	we are in disagreement then	22:54
maligor	it means the testing will be delayed too much	22:54
lbt	what?	22:54
maligor	I mean non-engineer input	22:55
lbt	what?	22:55
maligor	yes, they're the rare species	22:55
lbt	so I'm talking about the processes used to manage the feature->product delivery process	22:55
lbt	what about you?	22:56
lbt	I don't care how we get features defined	22:56
lbt	I don't care if they use Qt or gtk to build it	22:56
lbt	clearly someone should	22:56
lbt	I don't	22:56
maligor	you mean the crap the OEM's add ontop I guess by feature	22:57
maligor	I'm bad at manager speak I have to say	22:57
lbt	you mean the stuff OEM's sell .... which drives revenue and pays my mortgage? yes	22:57
lbt	and I also care about how that pushes down into meego	22:57
maligor	I guess we were thinking about entirely different things, sorry about that :P	23:00
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lbt	maligor: no problem...	23:03
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w00t_	thiago: you're an RPM-ite aren't you? is there a way to find and install the build dependencies for a package?	23:07
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lbt	w00t_: obs can tell you	23:08
lbt	for an obs package	23:08
gabrbedd	w00t_: something besides `zypper si -d` ? (source install, dependencies only)	23:09
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w00t_	gabrbedd: will give it a look, thanks	23:09
lbt	osc dependson if it helps	23:09
mnementh	w00t_: next contacts package has the correct IM pkgconfig depends. sorry about that. :)	23:09
w00t_	don't have obs/osc setup on my laptop	23:09
w00t_	er	23:10
w00t_	lenovo.. thing	23:10
w00t_	mnementh: cool stuff	23:10
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thiago	w00t_: rpm -qRp packagename.rpm to find them	23:26
thiago	w00t_: to install the deps, use zypper	23:26
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w00t_	mmk, thanks	23:26
lbt	goddam ldap	23:26
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Stskeeps	DawnFoster: btw, remember http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo-Meeting_IRC_Schedule for TSG's	23:36
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DawnFoster	oh oops. You mean that page that I'm always nagging other people to update ;)	23:37
Stskeeps	hehe	23:37
Stskeeps	will be a hell of a morning for me.. TSG, then n900 bug triage, then n900 common software/hardware adaptation	23:37
* w00t_ won't be making any of those meetings for sure		23:37
w00t_	6am is usually when I go to bed	23:37
w00t_	:P	23:37
Stskeeps	w00t_: time to stop being a vamprie	23:37
Stskeeps	vampire	23:38
w00t_	i vannnttt to suuuck your blooood	23:38
w00t_	hey, i even have the right extended incisors for it	23:38
w00t_	:P	23:38
DawnFoster	updated!	23:38
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DawnFoster	funny - even the 11pm -midnight my time is past this old lady's bedtime :)	23:39
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DawnFoster	w00t_: now you have an excuse to stay up an extra hour	23:39
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w00t_	DawnFoster: noooo :P	23:44
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w00t_	i'm trying to make my routine less messed up	23:44
w00t_	not more	23:44
lbt	TSG at 6am ... neat	23:47
andybleaden	DawnFoster, Hi Any news on whether there is much new features coming up with meego 1.2 A few people asking on the boards and elsewhere in the last few days?	23:47
CosmoHill	the last time I was up at 6am I hit them with a pillow for waking me	23:47
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gabrbedd	andybleaden: I think one of the new features is an actual working (Handset\|Tablet) UX.	23:50
* lbt wonders what was wrong with a time that hit most of the MeeGo people at either early evening or mid morning ...		23:50
DawnFoster	andybleaden: this is the best place to get an idea of what is in 1.2 http://meego.com/about/roadmaps	23:50
DawnFoster	if you click on the x's you get the list of features tagged with that release	23:51
DawnFoster	not sure if tablet will be 1.2 or not	23:52
andybleaden	DawnFoster; sorry to confuse .I meant with the netbook. See I type SOO fast in meego I hit return to soon	23:52
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andybleaden	a	23:52
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andybleaden	gabrbedd, sorry to confuse you too :)	23:53
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andybleaden	gabrbedd, DawnFoster I am also following tablet stuff etc but I mean only with netbook	23:53
DawnFoster	the netbook stuff is listed on that page - not sure about new features.	23:54
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gabrbedd	DawnFoster: Thus the pipe in my regex. :-) All the chatter here and on ML talks like Handset is dead, though.	23:59

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