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| w00t_ | rustylynch: any progress? | 00:13 |
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| rustylynch | w00t_: i'm merging now.... the other orientation issue has to be the mobility bug you pointed me to since i also see it from meego-ux-daemon | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | rustylynch: ok | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | do you know what mobility sensors plugin your target hardware uses? | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | is it the 'meego' one in upstream Mobility? | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | I'm working on fixing that bug now, so, if so I'll bump you when it's patched | 00:21 |
| rustylynch | actually... right now, on exopc, we are still using the orientation-contextkit-sensor i created till qtsensors works correctly with pegetron | 00:23 |
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| * w00t_ looks | 00:23 | |
| w00t_ | hmm. | 00:23 |
| rustylynch | hello world sensor that reads from contextkit | 00:23 |
| w00t_ | okay | 00:24 |
| rustylynch | sense sensorfw also publishes contextkit values for orientation | 00:24 |
| w00t_ | yes, it has the same problem | 00:24 |
| w00t_ | it needs to call updateSensor in the constructor, before setReading, I think | 00:24 |
| rustylynch | that's what i suspected | 00:24 |
| w00t_ | (that's what I'm trying to test now, made a bit difficult by my patched mobility crashing.. | 00:24 |
| rustylynch | easy fix | 00:24 |
| w00t_ | ) | 00:25 |
| rustylynch | i suspected i needed to trigger it from a timer, where i start the timer in start() | 00:25 |
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| w00t_ | shouldn't be needed afaik | 00:26 |
| w00t_ | contextkit should be populated instantly | 00:26 |
| w00t_ | hmmm | 00:26 |
| w00t_ | I think I will steal your hello world sensor to test the fix, for now, it saves me trying to figure out wtf is wrong with this package | 00:27 |
| w00t_ | :P | 00:27 |
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| rustylynch | it is... wasn't sure if it was safe to publish QSensor | 00:27 |
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| w00t_ | rustylynch: ok, i found out something interesting :P | 00:46 |
| w00t_ | rustylynch: I (for now) removed libqtsensors_meego, so presumably libqtsensors_orientation is the plugin doing the work, and (with no modifications) I get correct orientation - i.e. no off-by-90° problem | 00:47 |
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| w00t_ | so you may want to make sure that exo's contextkit stuff is populating Screen.TopEdge properly | 00:47 |
| w00t_ | I think I'm going to create a simple test app that can be used to test if a Mobility plugin is returning sane values | 00:48 |
| w00t_ | this is all insane :P | 00:48 |
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| rustylynch | w00t_: oh.. yea, we nuke the libqtsensors_meego in a ks file | 00:54 |
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| rustylynch | since this was just a temporary measure, till sensorfw is fixed | 00:54 |
| rustylynch | and the pegatron sensorfw config file needs to have an offset=1 | 00:54 |
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| w00t_ | rustylynch: do you happen to know what MeeGo package provides QtSensors headers? | 00:55 |
| * w00t_ is having some trouble finding it | 00:56 | |
| rustylynch | yea, let me look | 00:56 |
| w00t_ | much appreciated | 00:56 |
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| rustylynch | qt-mobility-devel, i think | 00:56 |
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| rustylynch | yea, that's it | 00:57 |
| rustylynch | zypper install 'pkgconfig(QtSensors)' | 00:57 |
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| w00t_ | wow | 00:57 |
| w00t_ | that works? :P | 00:57 |
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| wolfmurphy | I have a noob question I haven't been able to track down. How do I get gcc on Meego? ADVthanksANCE | 01:32 |
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| berndhs | wolfmurphy: zypper install gcc | 01:36 |
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| wolfmurphy | Drrrrr. Thanks. I haven't used zipper. Many thanks | 01:36 |
| rustylynch | you most likely need a bunch of other stuff | 01:37 |
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| wolfmurphy | Does zypper do dependency analysis to report what is missing? | 01:38 |
| rustylynch | yes, it will automatically resolve deps | 01:39 |
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| auke | run `zypper pt` | 01:39 |
| auke | then zypper install -t pattern `pattern-name` to get whole groups installed at once | 01:39 |
| auke | there are whole groups for development tools etc. | 01:40 |
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| wolfmurphy | Cool, thanks. What recommendations for other relevant developer SW? I was looking for place to browse possibilities | 01:40 |
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| rustylynch | what i meant by my other comment, is you are going to need a bunch of other basic stuff (beyond gcc and it's direct deps) to have anything useful. I know there is a zypper equiv of "group", but i don't recall what it is | 01:46 |
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| w00t_ | rustylynch: i'm not totally convinced about the stuff to stop listening to orientation changes, btw | 01:50 |
| w00t_ | from what i'm seeing, it doesn't provide for a very nice user experience when rotating orientation and switching apps after | 01:50 |
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| w00t_ | why was that done? | 01:50 |
| rustylynch | i stopped rotating apps in the background since having all the apps do rotations (when you start a bunch of apps) was sucking up a lot of resources | 01:51 |
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| w00t_ | right | 01:51 |
| w00t_ | i thought that might be why | 01:51 |
| w00t_ | my approach would be to stagger the rotations | 01:52 |
| rustylynch | and if apps never stop listening to orientation changes, then our device never falls into a deep sleep state | 01:52 |
| wolfmurphy | Thanks rustylynch (and auke and berndhs). I got to head out to teach (being a teacher helps explain my ignorance). I am getting mismatch on checksums, I'll try from home later. I will feel better when I get vi and gcc. | 01:52 |
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| w00t_ | hmm.. surely that's a bad implementation of the orientation code rather than anything else | 01:52 |
| rustylynch | i do agree that seeing the app rotate when you switch to it is also wrong | 01:52 |
| w00t_ | ok | 01:53 |
| rustylynch | w00t_: which thing, sleeping or background orienation changes? | 01:53 |
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| w00t_ | i'm open to other ideas about what we might do there, i've admittedly not decided on a solution i like | 01:53 |
| w00t_ | sleeping | 01:53 |
| w00t_ | sounds like mobility (or something under it) is doing something wrong if it's constantly having to poll | 01:53 |
| rustylynch | for sleeping it's simple.... you have to poll since that's how the device works. the sensorfw has no idea if this should be allowed or not | 01:54 |
| w00t_ | huh | 01:54 |
| rustylynch | so... if you have an active sensor, then you keep getting data | 01:54 |
| rustylynch | which means you never sleep | 01:54 |
| w00t_ | ok, i guess i can understand sensorfw waking up | 01:54 |
| rustylynch | or at least, you never fall into the special, deep sleep that mrtn implements | 01:54 |
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| rustylynch | i considered having meego-ux-daemon do a brute force call to sensorfw to cut off all orientation updates when we lock the screen, but that means a class of apps are not possible that need to listen to orientation changes in the background | 01:56 |
| * w00t_ thinks | 01:57 | |
| w00t_ | there is an alternative | 01:57 |
| w00t_ | is LauncherApp public API | 01:57 |
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| w00t_ | ? | 01:57 |
| rustylynch | if the re-layout was faster (so the user didn't notice it), then this wouldn't be an issue | 01:57 |
| w00t_ | that's true | 01:58 |
| w00t_ | ideally, we need to tell the app we're about to show it | 01:58 |
| rustylynch | i know the new meego-ux-components has a much better implementation for this, but i haven't verified if it's good enough to hide the relayout | 01:58 |
| w00t_ | ooh | 01:58 |
| w00t_ | is this in git? | 01:58 |
| rustylynch | yea, we need an about-to-show signal | 01:58 |
| w00t_ | I can probably poke it | 01:58 |
| rustylynch | yes, there is a meego-ux-components project | 01:58 |
| rustylynch | this is what we actually want to use, and are in process of migrating stuff out of meegolabs-ux-compnoents | 01:59 |
| rustylynch | meegolabs-ux-components (imported as MeeGo.Labs.Components) is what we started with, before qt-components was far enough along to build off | 01:59 |
| rustylynch | i'm being told by the maintainers that they are ready to start doing a massive porting of the apps | 02:00 |
| w00t_ | okay, and what's meego-ux-components then? an implementation of the Qt Components APIs? | 02:00 |
| rustylynch | it builds on top of it | 02:00 |
| w00t_ | cool | 02:00 |
| * w00t_ is happy to hear this, was a bit concerned that there wasn't going to be sharing :) | 02:01 | |
| rustylynch | and in some cases positions the code in a way that we think will be possible to leverage each other after a few mods are made to qt-components | 02:01 |
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| w00t_ | *nod* | 02:03 |
| rustylynch | btw... i made a local change to orientation-contextkit-sensor to publish a sensor value after start().... but this doesn't fix the odd behavior of nobody gets orientation values till the sensor spits at least one value out | 02:03 |
| w00t_ | rustylynch: that's the odd thing | 02:03 |
| rustylynch | and i'm getting the write value from contextkit | 02:03 |
| w00t_ | using orientation-contextkit-sensor on the n900 actually works... | 02:03 |
| w00t_ | and I get correct orientations and stuff | 02:03 |
| w00t_ | what exactly is going wrong for you? | 02:03 |
| rustylynch | if i boot with the device positioned in anything other then TopUP, and i dont move the device, then all apps startup and stay in TopUp | 02:04 |
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| rustylynch | once i move the device to another orientation, then everything works as expected | 02:05 |
| rustylynch | even when i start or restart apps | 02:05 |
| rustylynch | and since my device normally sit in a dock in portrait mode, then it's real obvious | 02:06 |
| w00t_ | wtf :) | 02:06 |
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| w00t_ | so why does it work on n900, hmm.. | 02:06 |
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| rustylynch | this is really odd... i might be doing somthing stupid | 02:07 |
| w00t_ | I can give you the .ks I'm using if that would help | 02:08 |
| rustylynch | which is the normal case when i find the laws of physics seem to no longer work | 02:08 |
| rustylynch | i'm fine | 02:08 |
| w00t_ | k | 02:08 |
| * w00t_ will ponder that a bit and see if he can think anything up | 02:09 | |
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| w00t_ | rustylynch: do you think if a 'close' button was added to components, it would get merged? | 02:14 |
| w00t_ | for touchscreen-only devices, it'd be pretty useful | 02:14 |
| rustylynch | added where? | 02:16 |
| w00t_ | visually? on the titlebar of the app | 02:17 |
| w00t_ | not sure where that is in code yet, just musing out loud on something that annoys me a bit | 02:17 |
| rustylynch | it would have to be done in such a way that it can be turned on or off | 02:17 |
| rustylynch | like a property of Window | 02:17 |
| w00t_ | of course | 02:18 |
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| rustylynch | or... perhaps better, controlled via a theme | 02:18 |
| w00t_ | that might be a more sensible idea even :) | 02:18 |
| rustylynch | so app developers don't need to worry about this | 02:18 |
| w00t_ | also means less patching :P | 02:19 |
| rustylynch | and showing it in an app on a device that doesn't need it makes the app look like it somehow doesn't really fit | 02:19 |
| w00t_ | *nod* | 02:19 |
| w00t_ | it's good that you're open to the idea generally though | 02:19 |
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| rustylynch | oh shoot... sure enough, sensorfw is fibbing about the initial orientation. I thought i proved it wasn't but again, my wet ware was still programmed to thing of top as landscape | 02:38 |
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| w00t_ | rustylynch: is there a reason for seperating libmeegoqmllauncher from the meego-qml-launcher binary? | 03:06 |
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| rustylynch | yes | 03:08 |
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| rustylynch | the browser isn't a normal qml app | 03:08 |
| rustylynch | but needed to share the classes | 03:08 |
| rustylynch | i also plan on making meego-ux-daemon subclass the same classes (instead of duplicating the effort making it harder to fix bugs), but haven't yet | 03:09 |
| w00t_ | ok; i did notice that | 03:10 |
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| w00t_ | (will meego-browser be released sometime?) | 03:10 |
| vgrade | w00t_, its on git today | 03:10 |
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| rustylynch | its also in Trunk | 03:11 |
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| rustylynch | meego-app-browser | 03:11 |
| w00t_ | ! | 03:11 |
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| * w00t_ did not know this | 03:11 | |
| rustylynch | it didn't make it on Friday because of a couple of last minute permissions, but there now | 03:11 |
| w00t_ | great news | 03:11 |
| vgrade | sorry not git, just obs | 03:11 |
| w00t_ | well, if it's on obs, git will (hopefully) soon follow | 03:12 |
| rustylynch | i'm discussing setting up a public git tree with the developers | 03:12 |
| w00t_ | rustylynch: excellent :) | 03:12 |
| rustylynch | just have a time lag since they all work out of PRC | 03:12 |
| * w00t_ wonders what performance on the n900 is like | 03:13 | |
| rustylynch | i don't think i want to know :-< | 03:13 |
| w00t_ | hahaha | 03:13 |
| w00t_ | well... we have a long way to go | 03:13 |
| rustylynch | it's a patched chromium | 03:13 |
| w00t_ | ok, an even longer way to go | 03:14 |
| rustylynch | or chrome (never remember which is the correct name) | 03:14 |
| w00t_ | i was thinking it would be QtWebkit or something like OrangeMobileBrowser and co | 03:14 |
| special | chrome is polished by google, chromium is the raw elements :p | 03:14 |
| w00t_ | OrangeMobileBrowser is supposedly quite good on n900 | 03:14 |
| w00t_ | starts in 5 seconds or so, quite fast, etc | 03:14 |
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| rustylynch | yea, but then in a week i will forget since the name is rather arbitrary to my brain | 03:15 |
| rustylynch | there is also an opera based browser that was just published | 03:15 |
| rustylynch | not sure by who, but somebody walked by with a demo on the tablet image | 03:15 |
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| w00t_ | oh, neat-o | 03:15 |
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| rustylynch | seemed pretty nice, but didn't spend a lot of time on it | 03:16 |
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| gabrbedd | w00t_: using --pkgmgr=yum I was able to build the Tablet image. :-) | 03:42 |
| gabrbedd | Of course, now that meegotouch finally has the non-mtf decorators working... I hate to abandon them... | 03:43 |
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| TSCHAKeee | any news on the release of the code for the Tablet UX ? | 03:57 |
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| ali1234 | TSCHAKeee: i heard it's gonna be "real soon now" | 04:11 |
| TSCHAKeee | heard that....3 weeks ago... ;) | 04:11 |
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| ali1234 | i heard some new news about... 1 week ago | 04:12 |
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| TSCHAKeee | ;) | 04:12 |
| rustylynch | its out | 04:13 |
| ali1234 | maybe that's what i heard a week ago... | 04:13 |
| ali1234 | can't really remember :) | 04:13 |
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| bef0rd | there is tablet ux for n900 | 04:15 |
| berndhs | there are tablet images in 1.1.99 from yesterday, dont know about the source for that | 04:16 |
| rustylynch | built off trunk, like all the other images | 04:16 |
| rustylynch | and host of git repos on gitorious @ http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-ux | 04:17 |
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| ali1234 | http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-ux/meego-ux-panels | 04:18 |
| ali1234 | that's the part most are probably interested in | 04:18 |
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| rustylynch | anyone from the meego release team awake? | 05:34 |
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| rustylynch | or anyone that knows the difference between the repo.* and download.* meego urls... specifically, which is the correct server to point to a tablet image in an announcement email | 05:35 |
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| gabrbedd | rustylynch: repo.meego.com is preferred, and holds the weekly builds. | 05:40 |
| gabrbedd | rustylynch: download.meego.com holds the daily builds... and probably not appropriate for an announcement. | 05:41 |
| gabrbedd | rustylynch: For example... you can't "browse" DMC... thus it seems it's use is for hard core folks like us. | 05:41 |
| rustylynch | thanks | 05:42 |
| gabrbedd | rustylynch: Full disclosure -- This is just my understanding.... I'm not an official member of the release team. | 05:42 |
| rustylynch | ok | 05:43 |
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| gabrbedd | erm... i'm not even an un-official member. :-) | 05:43 |
| gabrbedd | just make sure your announcements are sure to indicate that this is a development build. I would call it "alpha" | 05:44 |
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| Robot101 | mnementh: how does the contacts app do "actions" at the moment? like triggering a call, IM, e-mail, etc? | 05:49 |
| Robot101 | mnementh: is it in QContactsTracker or do you do it at the UI layer calling out to other meego-* apps? | 05:49 |
| Robot101 | mnementh: I was wondering if it was something you'd like to see in libfolks | 05:50 |
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| pixelgeek | gabrbedd: It's still listed as Tablet Developer Preview, and described as pre-alpha | 06:20 |
| iekku | morning | 06:20 |
| gabrbedd | pixelgeek: We're talking about this http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.1.99.0.20110329.5/images/ | 06:21 |
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| timeless_w7ip | ping | 09:10 |
| timeless_w7ip | anyone here on OS X try to use mxr recently? | 09:10 |
| timeless_w7ip | someone did a free text search for 'g++' but without a tree | 09:10 |
| timeless_w7ip | which doesn't lead to anywhere useful | 09:10 |
| timeless_w7ip | aha! | 09:11 |
| * timeless_w7ip finds the bad link | 09:11 | |
| * timeless_w7ip thanks culprit | 09:11 | |
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| timeless_w7ip | fixed and pushed upstream w/ a bundle of other things which we've been staging | 09:21 |
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| siddharths | i am going to buy idea pad for meego development does any one know place from where i can get discount | 09:39 |
| siddharths | :/ | 09:39 |
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| bkalinga | where can i upload the screen shots to.. if i need to share that in this IRC | 09:59 |
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| bkalinga | similar to pastebin... | 10:00 |
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| andre__ | bkalinga, imagebin | 10:05 |
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| bkalinga | thanks andre_ | 10:08 |
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| bkalinga | andre__:do you know any script to upload image to this imagebin site and give the uploaded image link; the way pastebinit works | 10:17 |
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| lcuk | bkalinga, sometimes just copy/paste the link is enough | 10:18 |
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| bkalinga | yes, luck. | 10:22 |
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| Stskeeps | morn pohly :) | 10:32 |
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| pohly | Stskeeps: morning | 10:36 |
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| lcuk | <Stskeeps> REMINDER: Nokia N900 DE Common Software (including hardware adaptation) meeting in #meego-meeting now | 11:03 |
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| lcuk | \o MeeGoExperts wazd dneary | 13:12 |
| dneary | hi lcuk | 13:12 |
| MeeGoExperts | Hi Everyone + lcuk :-) | 13:12 |
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| MeeGoExperts | In fact, hi dneary | 13:13 |
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| bkalinga | meego-handset-ia32-qemu-1.1.99.0.20110329.5-runtime showing entire black screen and not moving further... | 13:13 |
| bkalinga | is this a know issue | 13:14 |
| bkalinga | *known | 13:14 |
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| lcuk | bkalinga, /o\ oh cripes that does not sound great. especially since previous weeks qemu sdk images booted and got past there | 13:16 |
| lcuk | \o timeless_w7ip :P I was greeting people who I noticed entering on the page I saw | 13:17 |
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| lcuk | this is true indeed: RT @mece66 @lcuk Me too, and I really like how fast things seem to be moving right now too! @jukkaeklund #meego #n900de | 13:20 |
| bkalinga | lcuk: qemu-1.1.99.0.20110329.5-runtime i waited for 10minutes and its not moving from the initial black screen..where as qemu-1.1.90.3.20110215.10 showing Homescreen within a minute | 13:20 |
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| lcuk | hmm | 13:24 |
| lcuk | how do I search bugzille for something numeric (20110329) without it trying to think it is a bug number? | 13:24 |
| lcuk | nm | 13:24 |
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| dneary | hi MeeGoExperts | 13:27 |
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| bkalinga | luck: Try https://bugs.meego.com/query.cgi | 13:30 |
| bkalinga | for 20110329 there is no entry.. i searched | 13:31 |
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| lcuk | bkalinga, is it showing x11 cursor | 13:33 |
| lcuk | ie bug 9850 | 13:33 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9850 nor, Undecided, 1.2, zhiyuan.lv, NEED, QEMU boots to X but no desktop UI appears | 13:33 |
| lcuk | although I do not see how older qemu builds work (as we know, you have been in the UI of earlier builds | 13:34 |
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| lcuk | bkalinga, there are a few qemu related bugs https://bugs.meego.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=qemu+black | 13:42 |
| bkalinga | ok | 13:43 |
| lcuk | but mostly old hence oddity with this | 13:43 |
| lcuk | pondering if it is a regression, certainly feels that way to me | 13:43 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, btw not sure you @mwkn this, but active open development of the dialer project is expanding even more: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2011-March/482339.html | 13:44 |
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| Termana | morning | 14:51 |
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| wathek | Hi all | 15:12 |
| wathek | I wanted to know when does Qt call the void QGestureRecognizer::reset(QGesture *) function ? | 15:13 |
| wathek | Is it when the QGesture change its status to Cancel, Finished or whatever ? | 15:13 |
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| Jaffa | re | 15:18 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: I did indeed catch that, thanks | 15:18 |
| lcuk | \o | 15:19 |
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| villev | too bad intel's components depend on various mtf libs | 15:23 |
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| Stskeeps | like which? | 15:24 |
| Stskeeps | MIM? | 15:24 |
| villev | I mean the qt components stuff | 15:24 |
| Stskeeps | what libs does it rely on? | 15:25 |
| villev | they are linking to meegotouch libs directly, and using at least MGconfItem (trivial wrapper) | 15:25 |
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| Stskeeps | villev: MGConfItem is in Mlite instead | 15:25 |
| villev | and contextkit which is not really in mtf but part of the mtf "family" | 15:25 |
| villev | let's see what else they use | 15:25 |
| Stskeeps | (mlite is useful stuff from mtf) | 15:25 |
| Stskeeps | contextkit is used in most qt apps too in meego, kinda essential for proper running | 15:26 |
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| w00t_ | villev: no | 15:30 |
| w00t_ | they aren't using mtf, they use mlite | 15:30 |
| w00t_ | admittedly, the distinction isn't that big - they both have 'm' in the name.. :) | 15:30 |
| villev | w00t_: but they have CONFIG += meegotouch in the src.pro | 15:31 |
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| w00t_ | villev: which package is this? | 15:31 |
| villev | meego-ex-components from git | 15:31 |
| villev | Stskeeps: intel components are using it for status bar indicators | 15:33 |
| villev | contextkit that is | 15:33 |
| w00t_ | villev: I suspect that may be leftover | 15:34 |
| w00t_ | the packaging doesn't refer to meegotouch, and having unused/invalid stuff in CONFIG won't cause errors | 15:34 |
| villev | w00t_: right, so it's probably just cruft | 15:35 |
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| villev | I wonder, perhaps the status bar stuff shouldn't be in these components anyway | 15:37 |
| villev | MDeclarativeStatusBar is in public code | 15:37 |
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| w00t_ | yeah, early days, i think | 15:39 |
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| villev | also the stuff in 'models' seem to be out of place in qt components | 15:48 |
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| w00t_ | villev: fwiw, they're very receptive to patches | 15:50 |
| w00t_ | so if you find itches that annoy you, go wild | 15:50 |
| Stskeeps | the idea was to be 'api' compatible with qt components, right? | 15:50 |
| villev | hint taken. esp. stuff that makes it easier to build would be good candidates... | 15:51 |
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| w00t_ | Stskeeps: that's the mid-long term plan yes | 15:51 |
| w00t_ | as I understand it | 15:51 |
| w00t_ | villev: i'm just trying to increase the hands on it.. many hands, light work ;) | 15:53 |
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| villev | got it w00t_ | 15:54 |
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| berndhs | morning | 16:47 |
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| gabrbedd | Does anyone here know why YAML is a good idea? | 17:05 |
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| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: it really saves me a lot in general packaging work, personally | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: i didn't like it too much at first either but it really improves workflow | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | as well as allows anyone to pick up the maintaining of the pacage | 17:08 |
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| berndhs | YAML is the specify thing ? | 17:12 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 17:12 |
| berndhs | the tool that's not available on fedora 14 ? | 17:12 |
| Stskeeps | install from source? | 17:12 |
| Stskeeps | that's what i do | 17:12 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:12 |
| berndhs | i thought it was a python 2.7 issue | 17:13 |
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| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: How does it save you work? | 17:14 |
| Sage | berndhs: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/tools/repos/fedora/14/noarch/ | 17:14 |
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| gabrbedd | Whenever I use it, I spend half my time fighting YAML to generate a proper .spec file. | 17:14 |
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| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: as a starter, i don't need to manually sort out patches, i just add them to the Patches: list and they're applied. when i have to package something, it's trivial. new version of sw, trivial, etc.. | 17:15 |
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| berndhs | so this is practical now for any distro using rpm ? | 17:17 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: Hmmm... that's true. I've flubbed that one up before. | 17:17 |
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| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: And the builders are nice (when there is one). | 17:18 |
| Stskeeps | in addition to that, it really aids the transformation from being a debian person to doing meego packaging | 17:18 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: Does Specify support quilt series fiels? | 17:18 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:18 |
| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: not sure, send a patch? | 17:18 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:18 |
| gabrbedd | Well, I'm a debian person... and so far I've really enjoyed RPM packaging. | 17:19 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, me too :P | 17:19 |
| gabrbedd | YAML... not so much. | 17:19 |
| gabrbedd | :-) | 17:19 |
| Stskeeps | yaml is like wine, really good when you've used it a bit | 17:19 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:19 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: Well, after running into trouble, I noticed that a lot of packages have abandonded their YAML files. | 17:20 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: So, I figured I would ask. | 17:20 |
| gabrbedd | I'll give it another try. :-) | 17:20 |
| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: or never had them | 17:20 |
| gabrbedd | Yes, but having one and abandoning was confirming my opinion "this is just wasting my time." | 17:21 |
| gabrbedd | :-p | 17:21 |
| Stskeeps | give it some time :) | 17:22 |
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| gabrbedd | Yep, I'll give it another shot. Now that I'm dealing with more patch sets... that part makes a lot more sense, now. | 17:22 |
| berndhs | how reliable is the %{_vendor} macro ? will that stay as "meego" ? | 17:23 |
| Stskeeps | it used to be MeeGo until it broke gcc | 17:23 |
| Stskeeps | now it's meego | 17:23 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:23 |
| w00t_ | ... | 17:23 |
| w00t_ | do I want to know that story? | 17:23 |
| Stskeeps | no | 17:23 |
| berndhs | i was thinking that when apple see the light and starts using meego, they will change %{_vendor} | 17:23 |
| * gabrbedd always removes %{_vendor} | 17:24 | |
| berndhs | there are packages that dont use pkgconfig, so I still need to differentiate some names | 17:25 |
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| gabrbedd | bergie: You're using it in the package name ?? | 17:27 |
| dneary | thp about? | 17:27 |
| gabrbedd | berndhs: ^^^ (sorry, bergie!) | 17:27 |
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| berndhs | i'm using it as %if X%{_vendor} == Xmeego | 17:28 |
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| berndhs | and if that stays Xmeego its bad enough, but if I have to conside Xhtc and Xchinamobile its worse | 17:30 |
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| jonnor | berndhs: I suspect meego defines a meego version or release macro | 17:31 |
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| gabrbedd | berndhs: I just had M4 flashbacks.... | 17:32 |
| jonnor | similar to fedora and suse_version | 17:32 |
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| gabrbedd | berndhs: Are you using it with YAML... or just SPEC files? (just curious) | 17:33 |
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| berndhs | just spec | 17:34 |
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| berndhs | meego version has some issue, I think it has a dot . in it | 17:34 |
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| berndhs | actually I generate spec files, I write them in pieces | 17:35 |
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| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: Do you know if there are plans to add window frames in the Tablet UX ? | 17:40 |
| w00t_ | frames around what? | 17:40 |
| w00t_ | they already have a titlebar | 17:40 |
| berndhs | farmes take up space :) | 17:41 |
| gabrbedd | Well, a title bar I guess is what I mean. | 17:41 |
| gabrbedd | And no, I don't see title bars. | 17:41 |
| gabrbedd | berndhs: Yes, but there is a "frameless window hint" that apps can set to tell the WM "I'll draw my own title bar, thank you." | 17:42 |
| w00t_ | they aren't WM drawn | 17:42 |
| w00t_ | screenshot please? | 17:42 |
| w00t_ | or photo etc | 17:42 |
| berndhs | gabrbedd: yes but then you have to do your own moving and such. Also the hint is ignored on some systems | 17:42 |
| gabrbedd | w00t_: Bug 2953 has a similar screen shot. | 17:43 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2953 nor, High, ---, jesse.barnes, REOP, Many third-party Apps' window (i.e. glxgears, xterm) is not working in the fullscreen mode | 17:43 |
| gabrbedd | That bug is now resoved on Handset UX, but not for Tablet UX. | 17:43 |
| w00t_ | gabrbedd: ok, if they're not using the infrastructure, then they won't have frames | 17:43 |
| w00t_ | I don't imagine that will be fixed unless someone works on fixing it | 17:44 |
| gabrbedd | w00t_: What infrastructure? | 17:44 |
| w00t_ | QML, etc | 17:44 |
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| gabrbedd | So all apps need to be QML to be MeeGo? That's BS. | 17:45 |
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| w00t_ | that's the supported developer story, yes | 17:45 |
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| gabrbedd | supported developer story? | 17:47 |
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| w00t_ | gabrbedd: my point is, Qt is the framework of choice for meego, so, while anything else not working properly is a valid bug, I don't imagine it will get fixed unless someone actually steps up to get it fixed (either as a hobby, or for whatever reason, investing commercial developers' time into it, presumably because they want things other than Qt) | 17:52 |
| w00t_ | (this isn't really news, or anything - stuff doesn't get fixed unless someone wants to fix it) | 17:52 |
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| gabrbedd | w00t_: And patches don't get accepted unless someone wants the patch. | 17:53 |
| w00t_ | gabrbedd: I personally have had no problems getting my patches integrated; so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make | 17:53 |
| w00t_ | gabrbedd: are you saying you have fixed this, and your patch hasn't been accepted? if so, I'd like to know more | 17:53 |
| gabrbedd | w00t_: The point is "people have strong opinions on this... are there any current plans?" | 17:54 |
| w00t_ | gabrbedd: given that it hasn't been (properly) fixed for ~a year, I'd say no | 17:54 |
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| Stskeeps | which bug are we speaking about again? | 17:54 |
| gabrbedd | w00t_: Also, bugs against the Tablet UX are being rejected still... because they don't apply. | 17:54 |
| w00t_ | gabrbedd: I know, I'm subscribed to the bug to get categories set up | 17:55 |
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| gabrbedd | w00t_: And the bug is FIXED in the Handet UX. | 17:55 |
| w00t_ | but that is correct -- you can't just file bugs in the wrong place | 17:55 |
| w00t_ | ok, so go look at the handset ux, see how it was fixed, and work on transplanting the fix to tablet, and getting it accepted? | 17:55 |
| gabrbedd | w00t_: Anyway, I've got no problems working on an issue like this... but I don't want to spend hours doing work that will be spurned. | 17:56 |
| w00t_ | (it won't be easy, though, there's a lot of complex stuff there) | 17:56 |
| Stskeeps | is it the fullscreening of non-mtf apps stuff? | 17:56 |
| w00t_ | Stskeeps: yes | 17:56 |
| gabrbedd | w00t_: Right, and if Joe is already wokring on it... all well and good. | 17:56 |
| Stskeeps | that broke recently again because of the tablet ux guys breaking mdecorator | 17:57 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: No title bars for apps. | 17:57 |
| w00t_ | btw, just adding a titlebar won't really solve it anyway | 17:57 |
| w00t_ | it'll just give you a rather out of place looking titlebar :P | 17:57 |
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| w00t_ | (i.e. there's no close button on tablet or anything like that) | 17:57 |
| * gabrbedd is getting aggravated... will go get some coffee. | 17:58 | |
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| Stskeeps | good morning DawnFoster | 18:00 |
| w00t_ | o/ Dawn | 18:00 |
| DawnFoster | afternoon Stskeeps | 18:00 |
| DawnFoster | hey w00t_ | 18:00 |
| w00t_ | how's #meego's favorite community manager? | 18:01 |
| w00t_ | :P | 18:01 |
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| DawnFoster | ha! Still waking up *tea in hand* | 18:02 |
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| tomeu | is zypper able to install debuginfo rpms? | 18:18 |
| gabrbedd | tomaw: Yes, but you have to add (or enable) the "debug" repos. The package and debug repos are separated. | 18:20 |
| gabrbedd | tomaw: Package names have `*-debuginfo` at the end. | 18:20 |
| tomeu | ah, think I know how to add that repo | 18:21 |
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| tomeu | worked, maybe it's time to make my first wiki contribution | 18:22 |
| * TSCHAKeee hugs everybody... tablet UX source opened!!! :) | 18:23 | |
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| xplt | TSCHAKeee: \o/ | 18:26 |
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| tomeu | if anybody wants to check: http://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=Zypper&diff=35356&oldid=33450 | 18:28 |
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| w00t_ | hey tomeu o/ | 18:29 |
| tomeu | hi w00t_ :) | 18:29 |
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| mnementh | Robot101: we handle actions at the UI layer calling apps or using dbus calls. I don't know that if it was provided by libfolks I would use it since most of our apps launch at the UI layer for now. | 18:39 |
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| Robot101 | mnementh: telepathy has a mechanism for launching requests at the framework layer | 18:42 |
| Robot101 | mnementh: which we'd like to add support for in libfolks | 18:42 |
| Robot101 | other stuff like mailto: and http: we can do with MIME handling | 18:42 |
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| Robot101 | what other things need doing from an address book context do you think? | 18:43 |
| Robot101 | drilling down to social networking statuses I guess, but it depends if the social things support per-person views or if they just show up aggregated in the panels | 18:44 |
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| mnementh | Robot101: let me get back to you on that I think qt-folks provides a lot of what I need for online status, i need to plug in recent communication like call history, recent social networking updates, designers are still debating if that would duplicate panels too much | 18:49 |
| Robot101 | cool - well we've got a Qt API for the Telepathy logger which has our IM and VOIP call history | 18:49 |
| Robot101 | but of course, you don't store cellular there, so you need to query two places... boo hoo | 18:49 |
| Robot101 | (I wonder if we could use telepathy-ring just for call and message logging purposes? :P) | 18:50 |
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| Robot101 | do we need a libcalllog which reads and aggregates multiple sources of call logs...? :D :( | 18:51 |
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| dneary | Hi Robot101 | 19:04 |
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| lcuk | sigh | 19:32 |
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| berndhs | lcuk: my sentiments exactly | 19:34 |
| TSCHAKeee | ??? | 19:34 |
| TSCHAKeee | did I miss something? | 19:34 |
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| * npm fixes netbook 1.2 network horkage by installing latest connman,bluez,ophono from http://download.meego.com/live/devel:/connectivity:/latest/Trunk/i586/ | 20:01 | |
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| npm | revels in a wired connection that works | 20:04 |
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| berndhs | this fixes bug 12795 ? | 20:05 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12795 nor, Medium, ---, sameo, ASSI, connman crashes during suspend with manual IP | 20:05 |
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| npm | perhaps... it fixes https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9007 https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13778 https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14822 and a whole bunch of others | 20:07 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug 9007 nor, High, ---, martin.xu, RESO WORKSFORME, [REG]network notification pop up about every 5 minutes | 20:07 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug 13778 maj, Medium, 1.1.90.4, martin.xu, ASSI, [upstream 0.71 has fixed]connection problems, page allocation failures | 20:07 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug 14822 nor, Medium, ---, martin.xu, ASSI, [REG]Wifi list will refresh in few minutes | 20:07 |
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| npm | i got tired of waiting to see connman 0.71 ... so i google searched for an RPM and found the repo above | 20:08 |
| npm | i'll update the bugs once i see it working stable for a whole day | 20:08 |
| berndhs | sounds reasonable | 20:08 |
| npm | not that it matters since the bugs are closed as "worksforme" anyways | 20:09 |
| berndhs | i use https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13653 as a workaround | 20:09 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug 13653 nor, Medium, 1.3, sameo, ASSI, ConnMan applet disconnect does not disconnect ipv6 | 20:09 |
| npm | they're all dups, along with several others. | 20:09 |
| berndhs | disconnect wired from ipv4, live happily with ipv6 connection | 20:09 |
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| npm | yeah i thought about forcing a different pathway thru connman... then i realized i don't have an ipv6 net to connect to | 20:10 |
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| npm | https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13778#c34 was the key to my searching for connman version >> 0.69 which is buggy and still in all latest meego releases | 20:11 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug 13778 maj, Medium, 1.1.90.4, martin.xu, ASSI, [upstream 0.71 has fixed]connection problems, page allocation failures | 20:11 |
| berndhs | anyone can make a local ipvt net, and tunnels are free | 20:11 |
| berndhs | s/ipvt/ipv6/ | 20:12 |
| infobot | berndhs meant: anyone can make a local ipv6 net, and tunnels are free | 20:12 |
| npm | if i wanted to make debugging the network stack of meego more of a distraction than it's already been.... | 20:12 |
| npm | now i can get back to work :-) | 20:12 |
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| berndhs | hmm i can just add that repo | 20:13 |
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| npm | that's prolly the easiest fix | 20:14 |
| npm | or you can say "zypper install http://......rpm | 20:14 |
| npm | giving a full path to the desired RPM's from http://download.meego.com/live/devel:/connectivity:/latest/Trunk/i586/ | 20:15 |
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| npm | just make sure to satisfy all the dependencies in one "zypper in" | 20:15 |
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| berndhs | its a small repo, so adding it shouldn't confuse things | 20:15 |
| berndhs | not like adding all kinds of under-development things | 20:16 |
| npm | true | 20:16 |
| npm | and then you should just be able to zypper up | 20:16 |
| berndhs | that too | 20:16 |
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| * CosmoHill stabs MSSQL | 20:43 | |
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| * lcuk uses MIC2 to play around building an image | 20:46 | |
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| * CosmoHill goes looking for a SQL programmer | 20:47 | |
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| CosmoHill | oh you cock end, at not point did MSSQL think to go "btw you need to prefix this line with SET" | 20:50 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: So, are your sighs related to mic2? (Mine are...) | 20:51 |
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| lcuk | yeah gabrbedd - i have to dig into ubuntu to solve a bug | 20:52 |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: Which bug? I'm on ubuntu, too. Maybe we can work together. :-) | 20:53 |
| lcuk | I am on 10.04 and it does not have qemu 0.13 backported | 20:54 |
| * gabrbedd was up to 1AM futzing with failed mic2 builds. | 20:54 | |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: doesn't meego tools provide the qemu we need? | 20:54 |
| lcuk | using the provided 0.12blah version it crashes after downloading data | 20:55 |
| lcuk | not in the ubuntu repos | 20:55 |
| lcuk | because when the tools was being made the versions matched | 20:55 |
| gabrbedd | ah, I see. hmmm... | 20:56 |
| lcuk | I can solve it | 20:56 |
| lcuk | but it is from an unofficial repository and probably would not be a long term solution | 20:56 |
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| lcuk | the patches should be pushed upstream :) | 20:57 |
| gabrbedd | I remember in the 1.0 days having to install a special meego-supplied qemu for 10.04. | 20:57 |
| lcuk | or backported or wahtever is needed | 20:57 |
| lcuk | yeah gabrbedd for the other OS's in the tools repo there are rpms | 20:57 |
| lcuk | but it was a concious decision to not include it | 20:57 |
| special | gabrbedd: I dealt with this last night - you can install two packages from natty manually to get qemu 0.14 | 20:57 |
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| gabrbedd | OK. | 20:57 |
| gabrbedd | special: Actually, this isn't what I was dealing with last night. | 20:58 |
| special | I meant that I was having issues with qemu 0.12.x last night | 20:58 |
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| gabrbedd | special: I was building b0rked images. I think it's because I stopped using `--pkgmgr=yum` | 20:58 |
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| Stskeeps | use qemu 0.13 | 21:00 |
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| Stskeeps | and yeah, zypp backend is quirky | 21:01 |
| gabrbedd | ...not to mention zypp backend is default | 21:01 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, yeah that is the ubuntu problem, in the 10.04 repository it is only 0.12 | 21:01 |
| gabrbedd | :-) | 21:01 |
| special | and in 10.10 | 21:01 |
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| lcuk | special, you have the same problem | 21:02 |
| lcuk | or had | 21:02 |
| special | lcuk: had, I installed the natty packages manually and that fixed it. | 21:02 |
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| lcuk | gabrbedd, http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.file-systems.ceph.devel/1573 | 21:20 |
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| lcuk | hmm that might not be it either | 21:21 |
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| lcuk | special, which repo line is the new one on? :$ | 21:21 |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: :-) | 21:22 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: So... are you building MeeGo images from within Qemu? | 21:22 |
| special | lcuk: I wasn't in the mood to wrestle with repos, I just installed the .debs. | 21:22 |
| special | lcuk: http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/qemu-kvm-extras-static http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/qemu-user-static download links are on there | 21:22 |
| lcuk | thanks special | 21:23 |
| lcuk | gabrbedd, just following the image building stuff on the wiki | 21:24 |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: Been a while since I read the wiki on that stuff. I've only recently started having troubles with mic | 21:27 |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: well... /different/ troubles that is... | 21:27 |
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| lcuk | heh there are always different troubles. | 21:30 |
| lcuk | hopefully we get past them. | 21:30 |
| lcuk | :) | 21:30 |
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| o0-Dan-0o | hi | 22:02 |
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| lbt | evening | 22:03 |
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| o0-Dan-0o | finally got my n900 ^ | 22:03 |
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| o0-Dan-0o | :D | 22:03 |
| lbt | :) | 22:04 |
| w00t_ | rustylynch: ping | 22:05 |
| o0-Dan-0o | (used) unfortunately it has a small very small chip in the display =/ | 22:05 |
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| o0-Dan-0o | other than that seems fine | 22:06 |
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| lcuk | android 3.0 has 20 apps. http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/03/31/182237/Android-30-Is-Trickling-In-But-Are-the-Apps | 22:28 |
| rustylynch | w00t_: i'm back | 22:29 |
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| berndhs | lcuk: android 3.0 has me beat, I only have 7 apps | 22:30 |
| lcuk | well with some standardness around meego we could have 1000s per day easily | 22:31 |
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| berndhs | yes probably | 22:31 |
| lcuk | afterall, definition of an app is something people can click and select to install | 22:31 |
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| lcuk | open qt creator, choose nice picture, write a mesage on it and put it on the app mall | 22:32 |
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| lcuk | or some other ide | 22:32 |
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| lcuk | berndhs, which are your 7 apps? | 22:32 |
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| * lcuk could probably muster 10 usable apps and about 100 fragments | 22:33 | |
| berndhs | listed here http://berndhs.users.sourceforge.net/ | 22:33 |
| lcuk | ahh yes, seeing the page reminds me! | 22:33 |
| lcuk | the link to sourceforge is 404ing | 22:34 |
| lcuk | for notably | 22:34 |
| berndhs | let me check that | 22:34 |
| lcuk | hm | 22:35 |
| berndhs | works from here | 22:35 |
| berndhs | http://notably.sourceforge.net/ | 22:35 |
| lcuk | worked 2nd time, yeah I see | 22:35 |
| berndhs | the bottom one is QML, the rest are vanilla Qt | 22:36 |
| lcuk | berndhs, yeah | 22:36 |
| lcuk | I see notably is using 4.6.1 | 22:36 |
| lcuk | I gather that would work on the n8x0 as well as n900? | 22:36 |
| berndhs | i forget | 22:36 |
| lcuk | heh | 22:37 |
| berndhs | i havent tried them on N900s | 22:37 |
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| lcuk | saw the newsreader yesterday I tihnk | 22:37 |
| berndhs | the build in the OBS, screens layouts are not right for really small displays i'm sure | 22:37 |
| lcuk | berndhs, yeah, always difficult to make apps fit into small screens | 22:39 |
| lcuk | it is a tough thing and needs reminding people regularly to get it right. | 22:39 |
| berndhs | especially if you want to provide context for the main thing you're showing, where do you put it | 22:40 |
| berndhs | i dont have a device to try it on | 22:40 |
| lcuk | well with Qt, you can technically run it on your desktop | 22:40 |
| lcuk | and have added flexibility os sizing the window | 22:40 |
| berndhs | resolution is very different | 22:41 |
| lcuk | any app that dynamically handles rsizing should work well | 22:41 |
| lcuk | as long as it starts <=800*480 | 22:41 |
| lcuk | ;) | 22:41 |
| berndhs | so stuff that is 3 inches on a desktop isn't the same | 22:41 |
| w00t_ | rustylynch: so am I now | 22:41 |
| w00t_ | rustylynch: so I have an idea for our booster dilemma | 22:41 |
| w00t_ | rustylynch: we can't use booster, because it relies on -fPIC and loading the app as a shared library, but we're looking at this all wrong.. we can instead use meego-qml-launcher as our 'booster' | 22:42 |
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| w00t_ | prelaunch it, listen for a dbus message from the launcher saying 'start this', and when it recieves that signal, do all the necessary legwork | 22:42 |
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| w00t_ | (i.e. loading the right QML) | 22:42 |
| rustylynch | yea, that was my original idea | 22:43 |
| w00t_ | uh oh | 22:43 |
| rustylynch | mikeleib: you listiening | 22:43 |
| w00t_ | that makes me think you've already ruled it out :) | 22:43 |
| rustylynch | i know there were complications | 22:43 |
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| w00t_ | uh oh :-) | 22:44 |
| rustylynch | well... mikeleib and tripzero they can describe some of the complications.... i just got the ball rolling, but didn't keep up with the details | 22:44 |
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| rustylynch | i think he is still out for lunch | 22:44 |
| w00t_ | sure, ok | 22:45 |
| w00t_ | I'll roll it past them, I didn't know it had been thought of | 22:45 |
| * w00t_ -> dinner | 22:45 | |
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| lcuk | w00t_, if all processes are inside qml-launcher then everything is in process | 22:45 |
| lcuk | (basically identical to liqbase or hildon-desktop) and if apps crash it crashes the others | 22:46 |
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| lcuk | so do that only if you arereasonably sure apps cannot crash. | 22:47 |
| CosmoHill | when I make the ovi suite full screen, why is it like 10 pixels taller than it should be | 22:47 |
| w00t_ | they aren't all in process, and that isn't what I'm suggesting... | 22:47 |
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| w00t_ | but dinner | 22:47 |
| lcuk | sending dbus message into meego-qml-launcher which does tha parsing and running (faster) would mean they were? | 22:48 |
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| Stskeeps | w00t_: you'd still have to fork though? | 22:59 |
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| rustylynch | one of the issues was how to deal with dbus.... it's not fork safe | 23:07 |
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| w00t_ | Stskeeps: no | 23:12 |
| w00t_ | load QML, shutdown dbus, pre-exec new qml-launcher which restarts dbus | 23:13 |
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| thiago_home | what isn't fork-safe? | 23:20 |
| thiago_home | the connection? | 23:20 |
| thiago_home | if so, yes, the connection isn't fork-safe | 23:21 |
| thiago_home | no socket activity is. The file descriptor is inherited by the child process and they're tied. | 23:21 |
| w00t_ | [this is why I'd not fork to do it] | 23:22 |
| thiago_home | are you talking about the booster? | 23:22 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: not exactly | 23:22 |
| w00t_ | a mechanism *like* the booster | 23:22 |
| thiago_home | a fork+dlopen mechanism? | 23:22 |
| w00t_ | booster isn't really useful because the Intel guys want to avoid -fPIC (and the performance hit that comes with it), plus having a booster boosting a shared process seems a bit strange | 23:23 |
| w00t_ | so what I'm suggesting is to prestart that shared process and have some way of saying 'load this application's QML and go about your business' | 23:23 |
| thiago_home | james told me the performance penalty with -fPIC | 23:23 |
| thiago_home | but remember that there are a LOT of libraries loaded | 23:23 |
| thiago_home | the amount of code in libraries dwarfs the amount of code in the application | 23:23 |
| w00t_ | yup | 23:24 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, so, how do you avoid that situation? In Windows, once a library is loaded afaik the code memory space is available for all apps | 23:25 |
| thiago_home | if you profile an application running, I'll bet that the highest uses are in libraries anyway | 23:25 |
| lcuk | it just reinstantiates the data portion per binary | 23:25 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: Windows uses prelinked dirty text | 23:25 |
| thiago_home | if the DLL is loaded at its prelinked address, the text pages are identical to the disk, with no PIC register | 23:26 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, within Qt or all libraries? | 23:26 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: preloading the launcher app will preload a great proportion of those libraries, though | 23:26 |
| w00t_ | not all of them, admittedly, as some of them are loaded via QML | 23:26 |
| thiago_home | if it needs to be relocated, then the text pages will be dirty | 23:26 |
| lcuk | but does that have the effect of making app startup time better | 23:26 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: I'm going to (attempt to) get meego running on my ideapad to profile exactly that, anyway | 23:26 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: I meant in general, for any modern app. I'm not thinking specifically of Qt here. | 23:26 |
| lcuk | w00t_, sure, but they will be in process | 23:26 |
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| lcuk | ok thiago_home good | 23:27 |
| * w00t_ would still give an arm and a leg for a way to generate FTC traces | 23:27 | |
| lcuk | w00t_, in process *can* work | 23:27 |
| lcuk | and work well, but the code has to be bulletproof | 23:27 |
| lcuk | which is where Qa comes in | 23:27 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: which this code is not | 23:27 |
| w00t_ | both in terms of memory leaks and crashes | 23:27 |
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| w00t_ | there's too much surface area | 23:27 |
| w00t_ | especially when you add third party applications into that mix | 23:27 |
| lcuk | w00t_, in maemo this situation is addressed every day | 23:28 |
| lcuk | with user available widgets | 23:28 |
| w00t_ | huh? | 23:28 |
| lcuk | having same situation | 23:28 |
| lcuk | all widgets are in process | 23:28 |
| w00t_ | I think you'll find they're not | 23:28 |
| lcuk | bad ones are flagged uqickly | 23:28 |
| lcuk | they are .so | 23:28 |
| * w00t_ wrote one, and it certainly wasn't a shared object | 23:29 | |
| w00t_ | all widgets are is an X window with a certain atom set on it | 23:29 |
| w00t_ | it isn't (and doesn't need to be / shouldn't be) run in process | 23:29 |
| lcuk | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Application_Development/Writing_Desktop_Widgets#Building_Widgets | 23:29 |
| lcuk | 100% certain | 23:30 |
| thiago_home | easy to do with Lighthouse+Wayland server and Lighthouse+Wayland client | 23:30 |
| lcuk | To use a widget, it needs to be built as a shared library. This is done by passing the -shared flag to gcc. | 23:30 |
| lcuk | gcc -shared `pkg-config --libs --cflags hildon-1 libhildondesktop-1` widget.c -o lib-widget.so | 23:30 |
| thiago_home | that was the demo sroedal showed abouot two weeks ago in the office :-) | 23:30 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: ok, well then Qt is better than the gtk solution | 23:30 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, so in lighthouse the heavy qt code is in wayland server | 23:30 |
| w00t_ | because it doesn't need that | 23:30 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: http://blog.exys.org/entries/2010/Maemo5_Lastfm_Widget_With_Qt.html | 23:31 |
| lcuk | w00t_, that is plugin widgets into the main desktop | 23:31 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: ^ | 23:31 |
| w00t_ | read that link | 23:31 |
| w00t_ | it's a seperate process, it's a widget, and it works wonderfully | 23:31 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: actually, what I meant was a Lighthouse app with the XCB backend, but running as a Wayland server | 23:31 |
| w00t_ | anyway | 23:31 |
| w00t_ | I'm really not going to argue, if you think it's a good design, great | 23:31 |
| lcuk | w00t_, awesome - but that would have startup time problem | 23:32 |
| w00t_ | but I don't think that tying your reliability to the hordes of idiotic third party developers is a great idea | 23:32 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: it doesn't | 23:32 |
| ali1234 | maybe it was just me, but half the widgets i installed on maemo5 never worked | 23:32 |
| w00t_ | no more so than running a regular application | 23:32 |
| ali1234 | ie they never showed up in the menu, or they showed up but after adding them nothing appeared on the desktop | 23:32 |
| w00t_ | ali1234: having tried to walk someone through writing one, I can wholeheartedly say that they are a pain in the _ass_ and I never wish to repeat the experience | 23:33 |
| * lcuk agrees | 23:33 | |
| * w00t_ ponders how best to get meego on the ip | 23:34 | |
| w00t_ | i'd prefer to have used a microsd, but... | 23:34 |
| lcuk | http://download.meego.com/testing-daily/builds/trunk/1.1.99.0.20110330.80/images/ | 23:34 |
| lcuk | pinetrail usb image | 23:34 |
| w00t_ | I'll be building my own, as there are certain packages I want on it, I'm really hoping I'm not going to have to find a USB drive though | 23:35 |
| lcuk | then get image writer from here: http://meego.com/devices/netbook/installing-meego-your-netbook | 23:35 |
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| * w00t_ makes a hmph noise | 23:37 | |
| * lcuk makes an oooh noise | 23:38 | |
| * w00t_ goes to find a USB drive | 23:38 | |
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| lcuk | w00t_, I updated mic2 earlier and have just gotten first n900 image, what is your boggle | 23:38 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: hm? | 23:38 |
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| lcuk | gabrbedd, the updated qemu as highlighted by special worked a treat :D | 23:39 |
| lcuk | w00t_, I was having a problem with ubuntu and mic2 | 23:39 |
| lcuk | because ubuntu 10.04 does not include latest qemu which is required it was crashing. | 23:40 |
| lcuk | now it works :) | 23:40 |
| lcuk | 1/99 cured. | 23:40 |
| * lcuk moves onto #2 | 23:40 | |
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| thiago_home | w00t_: it might be possible to dlopen an executable compiled with -z nocopyreloc | 23:44 |
| w00t_ | hmm, what's that do? | 23:45 |
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| thiago_home | disables copy relocations | 23:45 |
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| w00t_ | hm | 23:46 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, you spoke about the Windows way as being dirty method, but if it works and would boost startup time drastically? | 23:47 |
| lcuk | or would that require core linux dll loading modifications? | 23:47 |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: Yay! \o/ | 23:48 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: I meant "dirty" in the sense of dirty pages | 23:48 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, does Qt make use of self modifying code? | 23:48 |
| thiago_home | a dirty page is a page that has modifications compared to its backing store | 23:48 |
| lcuk | or other thigns which would make pages dirty? | 23:48 |
| lcuk | ^^ yes, I am aware of its meaning | 23:48 |
| thiago_home | the JIT in JSC produces code | 23:49 |
| thiago_home | it's not really self-modifying, though | 23:49 |
| thiago_home | once produced, it stays fixed | 23:49 |
| lcuk | that is different to dll library functions though? | 23:49 |
| lcuk | unless it self modifies its own jump table | 23:49 |
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| lcuk | (I remember original win binaries did that occasionally | 23:50 |
| thiago_home | but any library on Linux (except NVidia's libGLcore) uses "clean PIC text" | 23:50 |
| thiago_home | yeah, I did a lot of self-modifying code in my DOS days | 23:50 |
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| thiago_home | the INT instruction takes an immediate, so to write an interrupt function, I used to write to the code segment | 23:50 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, does that mean Linux cannot use DEP (Data Execute Protection) code? | 23:50 |
| thiago_home | no, it can | 23:51 |
| thiago_home | W^X, NX, whatever you call it | 23:51 |
| lcuk | but the pages are marked as text? | 23:51 |
| lcuk | yeah | 23:51 |
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| thiago_home | the text pages are read-only | 23:51 |
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| thiago_home | secure distros don't allow libraries with TEXTREL | 23:51 |
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| lcuk | yeah but text == data, I thought NX disallowed that | 23:51 |
| thiago_home | that is, relocations on the text pages | 23:51 |
| thiago_home | no, text == code | 23:51 |
| thiago_home | data is data | 23:52 |
| lcuk | roger, terminology mixup then \o | 23:52 |
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| lcuk | it does not matter much, afaik we don't even have NX/DEP or similar on ARM anyway | 23:52 |
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| lcuk | so the problem definition is: to load in a 1kb QML file, you need to load many MB of libraries? | 23:53 |
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| thiago_home | a lot | 23:54 |
| thiago_home | the interesting question is: how many *more* MB do you need compared to what's already loaded | 23:55 |
| w00t_ | why oh why is meego servers so slow | 23:56 |
| * w00t_ falls asleep waiting for the download | 23:56 | |
| thiago_home | take, for example, kwrite. It has VSZ of 95 MB and RSS of 34 MB. | 23:57 |
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| w00t_ | meego tablet is worse | 23:57 |
| thiago_home | you'd think that starting kwrite requires 34 MB of RAM. But in fact, the marginal impact of starting it is only 13 MB. | 23:58 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, do any of your technical guys know the low level differences (more than descriptions thereof) that oculd actually be set about *trying* a linux system which used windowesq library shering semantics | 23:58 |
| w00t_ | (most apps are RSS ~20mb, VSZ is around the 100-120mb mark I think) | 23:58 |
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| lcuk | it would be a revolutionary thing for all of linux if it could be done! | 23:58 |
| w00t_ | well, that RSS is after I got it to stop taking GL contexts | 23:58 |
| w00t_ | before that, 30-40mb per process | 23:58 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, I would not know how to even pose such a question on the ML to ask if others have tried before | 23:59 |
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