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| alterego | vgrade, gabrbedd: that's not really what I wanted actually :( | 00:15 |
|---|---|---|
| alterego | I wanted an interactive console, that allows me to write javascript statements in the context of an already running Qt Quick application. | 00:16 |
| alterego | Like firebug in firefox :) | 00:16 |
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| Venemo | out of curiosity, would Gnome Shell work on MeeGo? | 00:30 |
| alterego | Should do if it was compiled. | 00:31 |
| Venemo | mhm | 00:31 |
| Venemo | I wonder how it would look on the n900 | 00:32 |
| alterego | Probably best to compile it in scratchbox gor maemo tbh | 00:33 |
| alterego | +/gor/for | 00:33 |
| alterego | blurgh | 00:33 |
| alterego | I kinda want the qml wysiwyg editor on the N900 | 00:33 |
| alterego | Or something similar. | 00:34 |
| Venemo | mhm | 00:34 |
| Venemo | it seems that they basically stole many concepts from mobile desktops | 00:35 |
| Venemo | http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=window-picker.png | 00:35 |
| alterego | certainly looks somewhat tablet friendly | 00:36 |
| lcuk | alterego, it is shown on n900 isn't it? | 00:38 |
| lcuk | not gnome, I meant the qml editor thingy | 00:38 |
| * lcuk notes many of the concepts were concepted elsewhere | 00:39 | |
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| Venemo | alterego, according to their wiki, they intend it to be easily used on touchscreens | 00:39 |
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| alterego | lcuk: the editor mode in qt creator? | 00:40 |
| lcuk | oh no the simple one in playground | 00:41 |
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| alterego | Yeah, that works on the N900, but what I wanted was a simple javascript statement evaluator | 00:42 |
| alterego | like firebug on firefox | 00:42 |
| alterego | I've implemented my own and will work on getting it to work as a kind of plugin. | 00:42 |
| alterego | It's a shame Qml doesn't have more introspection though | 00:42 |
| alterego | Something as simple as finding out the type of a Qml object would be very handy | 00:43 |
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| gabrbedd | Yay! It looks like Bug # 2953 is fixed in the latest daily build! | 00:47 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2953 nor, High, ---, jesse.barnes, REOP, Many third-party Apps' window (i.e. glxgears, xterm) is not working in the fullscreen mode | 00:47 |
| gabrbedd | The decorators are showing up! | 00:47 |
| gabrbedd | :-) | 00:47 |
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| wazd | estimated travel time: 19h 30m | 01:01 |
| wazd | heluva trip :( | 01:01 |
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| Jartza | pupnik: ARM926EJ (dual-core) 600MHz | 01:23 |
| Jartza | 800x480 7" resolution | 01:23 |
| Jartza | but for that price I couldn't resist :) | 01:23 |
| pupnik | good price | 01:25 |
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| Termana | morning | 01:36 |
| berndhs | Termana: evening | 01:38 |
| CosmoHill | hi Termana | 01:42 |
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| * CosmoHill giggles at the clearly fake sample output data in the Intel MPI Benchmark documentation | 02:02 | |
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| CosmoHill | auke: may I make a suggestion for the Intel MPI Benchmark, print the date at the end as well as the start | 02:19 |
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| CosmoHill | cyas | 02:37 |
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| * lcuk smiles and heads to bed \o | 05:33 | |
| * w00t_ doesn't | 05:33 | |
| lcuk | o_O | 05:33 |
| lcuk | what is keeping you up | 05:33 |
| lcuk | you already know why I am around | 05:34 |
| * w00t_ is working | 05:34 | |
| * TSCHAKeee listens to Tangerine Dream: Poland | 05:34 | |
| * lcuk got di.fm on | 05:34 | |
| lcuk | oldschool house channel | 05:35 |
| TSCHAKeee | nice :) | 05:37 |
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| * TSCHAKeee was listening to Mr. Fingers earlier | 05:37 | |
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| IanWizard-Mobile | how easily would Medco support an FM transiever | 08:11 |
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| IanWizard-Mobile | *meego | 08:11 |
| IanWizard-Mobile | assuming that all of the right drivers were supplied | 08:12 |
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| Brex | Hello Everyone! | 09:21 |
| Stskeeps | morn | 09:21 |
| Brex | I have a few questions about meego,.. imagine that! | 09:22 |
| Stskeeps | ask away | 09:22 |
| Brex | Great thanks Stskeeps! | 09:22 |
| * dm8tbr tries to act surprised! | 09:22 | |
| Brex | I was wondering, the main page, the initial 'home' page... what kind of info will that display. | 09:23 |
| Brex | (i am downloading meego now, and intend to try it on one of my old netbooks) | 09:23 |
| Brex | Obviously things like appointments, and email and such, but what else? | 09:24 |
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| Stskeeps | not sure on netbook :) | 09:25 |
| * Stskeeps heads with handset side | 09:25 | |
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| Brex | I see... What info do you have on your handset then? | 09:26 |
| dm8tbr | ah, netbook. didn't use it that much | 09:26 |
| Brex | I used to have an nlited version of XP on it, but even that eventually clogged up the hard drive. | 09:27 |
| Brex | And the thing sits around gathering dust... I recently found it's a great addition to the stereo set up, constantly playing tunes from grooveshark.com | 09:28 |
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| lovelym55 | help me please | 09:42 |
| lovelym55 | is there somebody help me? | 09:43 |
| Stskeeps | ask your question please | 09:43 |
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| lovelym55 | i want to chat whit hot girl | 09:48 |
| lovelym55 | how can i find hot girl? | 09:48 |
| Stskeeps | lovelym55: then you came to the wrong place, we're mostly full of geeks here | 09:48 |
| Stskeeps | lovelym55: please try yahoo chat or the likes :) | 09:49 |
| lovelym55 | who? | 09:50 |
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| lovelym55 | i want to see hot girl in her webcam | 09:51 |
| Stskeeps | sorry, this is not the place for that :) please go to google.com and type in what you are searching for | 09:51 |
| lovelym55 | buy this is single chatroom | 09:52 |
| Stskeeps | no it's not | 09:52 |
| lovelym55 | but.excuse me | 09:52 |
| lovelym55 | i saw it now | 09:52 |
| Stskeeps | this is a chatroom for the MeeGo project, a mobile operating system, not a chatroom for singles | 09:53 |
| Stskeeps | as an example, i'm married | 09:53 |
| lovelym55 | what do you do? | 09:53 |
| Stskeeps | we develop computer software | 09:54 |
| lovelym55 | disiner | 09:54 |
| lovelym55 | where? | 09:54 |
| Stskeeps | meego.com | 09:54 |
| lovelym55 | from? | 09:54 |
| Stskeeps | so, you do understand now that this is not a chatroom for singles? | 09:54 |
| lovelym55 | how? | 09:54 |
| lovelym55 | ok. bye thanks | 09:55 |
| Stskeeps | bye | 09:55 |
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| iekku | good morning | 10:24 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:28 |
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| kkv | hello, who can help with creating account for OBS? | 11:25 |
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| alterego | kkv: you need to talk to lbt, | 11:34 |
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| kkv | ok, thanks | 11:35 |
| lbt | hi kkv | 11:36 |
| lbt | sure - for opensource applications? | 11:37 |
| lbt | and this is the community OBS, not core | 11:37 |
| lbt | nb ... chatting here is fine | 11:38 |
| lbt | ah.... did we chat on email a few weeks ago ? | 11:38 |
| alterego | Heh | 11:39 |
| lbt | kkv: here... ? | 11:40 |
| kkv | yes im here | 11:40 |
| lbt | :) | 11:40 |
| lbt | you said http://osll.spb.ru/ | 11:40 |
| kkv | yeap! | 11:40 |
| lbt | so welcome to #meego then | 11:40 |
| kkv | Pavel writes to u | 11:40 |
| lbt | I think we discussed that you need a meego.com account per person ... so if you have that then I'll enable it... | 11:41 |
| kkv | and we decided to have personal accounts | 11:41 |
| lbt | heh | 11:41 |
| kkv | do u remember? | 11:41 |
| lbt | I do | 11:41 |
| kkv | great! | 11:41 |
| lbt | so ... what's your account? | 11:41 |
| kkv | my account in meego is kkv | 11:41 |
| lbt | OK - done | 11:42 |
| kkv | i'll try | 11:42 |
| kkv | thanks | 11:42 |
| lbt | kkv: ... I'm not sure if MeeGo has any specific way for academic groups to relate to the project yet. Maybe you or Pavel should contact DawnFoster and just say "hi". | 11:45 |
| Termana | My screen is full of three letter nicknames, I just have to say something to make everything not look the same | 11:45 |
| lbt | just to establish a friendly link - it's not compulsory :) | 11:45 |
| kkv | It works! thanks | 11:45 |
| lbt | tln's are the best! | 11:46 |
| lbt | kkv: good :) | 11:46 |
| kkv | I will definitely write to him (: | 11:46 |
| lbt | hehe russian smiley .... | 11:46 |
| kkv | In my plans to have students stream on meego | 11:46 |
| kkv | not russian , it's my personal style... I dont remember how it happened | 11:48 |
| lbt | bbl8r | 11:48 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: or just contact meego-community@ | 11:48 |
| * Stskeeps evolved from :-) to =) to :) | 11:48 | |
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| kkv | who have experience in building meego images? | 12:10 |
| kkv | is it possible in "home environment"? | 12:11 |
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| Stskeeps | yes, mic2 | 12:12 |
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| kkv | what's mic2 | 12:12 |
| Stskeeps | meego image creator :) | 12:13 |
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| kkv | o! thanks will investigate | 12:13 |
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| lcuk | so I see the #meego-fi guys have started working on a QML schedule app for the summit there next month | 13:38 |
| lcuk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT315u6aF5o | 13:38 |
| lcuk | if anyone has hands and skills to try and advance this it would be awesome http://gitorious.org/meegosummitfi | 13:38 |
| leinir | *nods* Needs a good deal more work, but not a bad idea anyway :) | 13:39 |
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| lcuk | leinir, if you were using gluon to do this, what would a schedule app look like? | 13:41 |
| leinir | Hehe, well, in that we use QML for game UI, it probably wouldn't look that different :) | 13:42 |
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| lcuk | leinir, well game ui sometimes needs to show info panels and even high score tables and stuff | 13:42 |
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| lcuk | so there are sometimes needs to do normal ui | 13:42 |
| lcuk | so - would it be feasible to do a schedule app in gluon? :P | 13:43 |
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| leinir | *nods* Indeed - why we're using qml :) | 13:43 |
| leinir | well, i guess it would *giggles* just not sure it'd make sense, so much :) | 13:43 |
| lcuk | ahhh I see | 13:43 |
| leinir | Since the schedule would be all game UI and no game, really... :) | 13:44 |
| lcuk | leinir, are you really sure? Like any good game, the map only expands to let you see more events as you progress through the levels | 13:46 |
| lcuk | until then you can just do gold farming in the corridor-track | 13:47 |
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| leinir | lcuk: Well sure, it could be made with a sort of map of the event location... and while we don't have that particular component yet, and lack the social integration (all scheduled for alpha3), i can see how that'd be interesting... plot your friends etc on the map, see where they are and what events they're in and so on ;) | 13:49 |
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| leinir | i can certainly see an unconference management type app built using that... | 13:50 |
| lcuk | heh | 13:51 |
| alterego | That would be pretty awesome using some kind of upnp & conference wifi | 13:52 |
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| leinir | Hehe, yeah :) | 13:53 |
| leinir | well, or a mesh network ;) | 13:54 |
| alterego | Yeah, that'd work too I guess. | 13:54 |
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| alterego | If only you could ascertain which room you're in :) | 13:54 |
| leinir | *nods* yeah... it'd probably have to be nokia's super-local location awareness thing... which afaik is still pretty alpha :) | 13:55 |
| alterego | I suppose if you have static bluetooth units in each room | 13:55 |
| alterego | You could use that :) | 13:55 |
| leinir | hmm... that might work too, yeah... a grid of bluetooth units throughout the event space... | 13:57 |
| lcuk | leinir, mesh network == No - ad-hoc networking is barred based on connman | 14:00 |
| alterego | What? LAme | 14:00 |
| alterego | adhoc networking is a must! :( | 14:00 |
| lcuk | leinir, mapping the known wifi hotspot locations should give the indoor location stuff | 14:01 |
| lcuk | bug 440 | 14:01 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=440 enh, Low, ---, sameo, ASSI, Unable to support ad-hoc mode for WiFi | 14:01 |
| lcuk | alterego, the replacement "Wifi Direct" which is secure version is in need of some loving | 14:02 |
| alterego | I don't want a secure version :P | 14:02 |
| lcuk | bug 12686 was not allowed either | 14:02 |
| alterego | I just want it to work :) | 14:02 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12686 enh, Undecided, ---, gavin.hindman, RESO REJECTED, [FEA] Wifi Ad-hoc Missing from ConnMan | 14:02 |
| lcuk | Wifi Direct (bug 4729) is still in INDEFINITION | 14:03 |
| _MeeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4729 enh, Undecided, ---, prahlad.gokul, INDE, [FEA] WiFi Direct (WLAN P2P) Support | 14:03 |
| lcuk | but thankfully, Qt 4.8 WILL support multicast networks | 14:03 |
| lcuk | but you cannot use them with ad-hoc on meego where you could potentially gain most benefit :( | 14:03 |
| lcuk | (I did quite some research into networking to try and get this usecase) | 14:04 |
| lcuk | Multicast support for its new QUdpSocket class in Qt4 http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-7 -> http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-8652 | 14:05 |
| alterego | Hrm | 14:06 |
| alterego | When is Qt 4.8 scheduled? | 14:06 |
| alterego | Seems like only yesterday we were using 4.6 | 14:06 |
| alterego | Oh wait, that was a year ago :D | 14:06 |
| Venemo | hehe alterego | 14:08 |
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| Venemo | indeed it feels like yesterday | 14:08 |
| leinir | lcuk: yup, pretty stupid choice by some guy who thinks he knows best | 14:09 |
| leinir | alterego: What is this "scheduled" of which you speak? ;) | 14:09 |
| alterego | :) | 14:10 |
| * alterego wonders what the big thing with 4.8 will be | 14:10 | |
| alterego | I reckon Qt 3D stuff | 14:10 |
| leinir | lcuk: as for mapping the wifi networks, that's not as straight forward as it sounds... Very common uni project, and they basically all come down to "Yeah, can't be done, chaos and concrete walls get in the way" ;) | 14:10 |
| leinir | Hehe, Android and iOS support? ;) | 14:10 |
| lcuk | leinir, you never let a concrete wall stop you from trying did you? | 14:11 |
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| lcuk | and leinir depending on the conf location and hotspot placement | 14:11 |
| leinir | Ostensibly anyway, it's big thing to me is lighthouse :) | 14:11 |
| lcuk | you can remove walls | 14:11 |
| leinir | lcuk: it's just that you need a complete heatmap of the entire site... it's too site specific to be generally useful, very annoying | 14:12 |
| lcuk | more than qt I expect to see real apps :P | 14:12 |
| lcuk | leinir, depends | 14:12 |
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| lcuk | if you setup the map once in a conference centre | 14:12 |
| lcuk | then any conference in that location can use it | 14:12 |
| lcuk | if done well it can be picked up and used by many groups and OS parties | 14:13 |
| leinir | it really isn't that simple... if it was, i'd be all for it, but... yeah, it just isn't :) | 14:13 |
| leinir | really wish it was, though ;) | 14:13 |
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| lcuk | :) if everything were simple there would be no challenges lef.t | 14:15 |
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| leinir | *laughs!* Oh, true :) | 14:15 |
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| lcuk | leinir, did you ever see the stuff from Nokia research on cognitive radio? | 14:15 |
| lcuk | http://research.nokia.com/page/9401 | 14:16 |
| lcuk | a great technology that uses local cloud of machines to help get the signal through | 14:16 |
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| leinir | That's kinda neat, yes :) | 14:17 |
| lcuk | what is the bet that all that networking stuff I just talked about will be required to do that? | 14:17 |
| leinir | The problem isn't getting the data, the problem is linking it to a physical location with precision better than a couple of meters (you know, the difference between being on one side of a wall and another ;) ) | 14:20 |
| leinir | and for the use they describe on there, the physical location is irrelevant :) | 14:20 |
| lcuk | ahem: I quote Serenity on this one: "You can't stop the signal, Mal." If you got signal to someone on either side of the wall you can send data | 14:20 |
| lcuk | and leinir - we cope with being a few metres off now - GPS works and people just laugh when it says we are driving down the grass verge | 14:21 |
| lcuk | or actually drive down the grass verge | 14:21 |
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| lcuk | either way, using common sense is good ;) | 14:21 |
| leinir | Oh you can, with reinforced concrete ;) | 14:21 |
| alterego | lcuk: but unusually not when we're on the wrong side of the road :X | 14:22 |
| * alterego chuckles | 14:22 | |
| lcuk | leinir, good, then if it is reinforced the signal will not be there to send wrong side | 14:22 |
| * lcuk shrugs | 14:22 | |
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| alterego | Flippin' javascript doesn't have integer division O_o | 14:31 |
| leinir | well no, because it only has Number as type, which is a floating point value :) | 14:31 |
| alterego | Yes, obviously. | 14:31 |
| Venemo | how ridiculous is that | 14:32 |
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| lbt | javascript being popular is almost enough to make me believe in a vindictive god.... | 14:34 |
| alterego | Crap, and this doesn't even work 100% of the time: (op1 / op2 - op1 % op2 / op2) | 14:34 |
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| leinir | javascript is much better than most people tend to think :P | 14:34 |
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| lbt | it's like a joke that went badly wrong | 14:34 |
| lbt | leinir: no. it's crap. | 14:34 |
| lbt | it's just powerful crap | 14:34 |
| wathek | Hi all | 14:34 |
| wathek | :D | 14:35 |
| lcuk | javascript only picked up where visual basic left off :P | 14:35 |
| * leinir thinks it should be required reading for anybody who wants to say anything about javascript to read JavaScript: The Good Bits | 14:35 | |
| thiago_home | op1 % op2 is, by definition, < op2 | 14:35 |
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| thiago_home | op1 % op2 / op2 < 1 | 14:35 |
| wathek | I was thinking if there was a TapAndHoldGesture and at the same time a TapGesture it won't work | 14:35 |
| lbt | leinir: yep... there are good bits. It's still crap | 14:35 |
| wathek | will it ? | 14:35 |
| thiago_home | if it's integer, it's zero | 14:35 |
| alterego | thiago_home: obviously .. | 14:35 |
| alterego | thiago_home: this is javascript | 14:35 |
| alterego | That code is supposed to return the integer division of two floating point numbers. | 14:36 |
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| Venemo | lbt ++ | 14:36 |
| leinir | lbt: and you've not read that book? You're automatically disqualified, sorry ;) | 14:36 |
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| Venemo | I didn't read that book, but I have wasted lots of my time with javascript. I can say for sure that it is crap. | 14:37 |
| alterego | leinir: the authors of that book probably read some one elses book. Arguing about someone not reading a specific book is stupid :P | 14:37 |
| lbt | leinir: you web programmer you. | 14:37 |
| leinir | My personal gripe with it is that it looks in any way C-like, because the language isn't | 14:37 |
| * lbt struggles for a worse insult... | 14:37 | |
| leinir | alterego: Seriously - read it ;) | 14:37 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, a % b where a=15 and b=16 gives answer == a | 14:37 |
| Cosmo[PB] | wow my battery really sucks | 14:38 |
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| lcuk | /undoline | 14:38 |
| * lcuk misread your doofer :P | 14:38 | |
| Venemo | lcuk ++ | 14:38 |
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| alterego | leinir: why? will that book tell me how to do a guaranteed integer division? | 14:39 |
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| lbt | alterego: from the author of that book, Doug Crockford : "if you strip away its shortcomings, what you’re left with is actually an elegant, beautiful little language" .... well "duh"... | 14:41 |
| lbt | but anyway... I can haz animated web pages .... yay \o/ | 14:41 |
| leinir | lbt: Funnily, the argument is the same for C++ ;) | 14:42 |
| alterego | lbt: surely that's true of anything? Doesn't help what it actually is | 14:42 |
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| thiago_home | it applies to all languages | 14:42 |
| lbt | alterego: that would be my point.... | 14:42 |
| alterego | Does this mean you like ECCMA but not JavScript? | 14:42 |
| thiago_home | except the languages on which you're left with nothing | 14:42 |
| lbt | thiago_home: that's elegant ;) | 14:42 |
| lbt | and undoubtedly little | 14:42 |
| alterego | thiago_home: like PERL? :D | 14:42 |
| leinir | alterego: basically yes, i would say that's right - the book is about ECMAScript the language, not really about JavaScript as implemented horribly in most web browsers ;) | 14:42 |
| lcuk | lbt, what language would you like to use for web? | 14:43 |
| alterego | Anyhow, this works: (op1 - op1 % op2) / op2 | 14:43 |
| thiago_home | lbt: at that point, it can't be called a language anymore | 14:43 |
| * lbt stabs alterego for sacrilege | 14:43 | |
| lbt | lcuk: embedded perl | 14:43 |
| lcuk | s/web/qml/ | 14:43 |
| infobot | lcuk meant: lbt, what language would you like to use for qml? | 14:43 |
| alterego | So basically: function div(op1, op2) {return (op1 - op1 % op2) / op2} | 14:43 |
| lbt | ditto | 14:43 |
| alterego | Does that seem good? | 14:43 |
| lcuk | roger, but is that because of its string handling strength? | 14:43 |
| thiago_home | isn't there a Math.floor? | 14:43 |
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| alterego | thiago_home: yes .. yes there is .. | 14:44 |
| lbt | lcuk: no. it's because TMTOWTDI | 14:44 |
| * alterego chuckles | 14:44 | |
| Venemo | qml should have been xml based, like xaml | 14:44 |
| thiago_home | Math.floor(op1 / op2) * op2 | 14:44 |
| lbt | xml also sucks | 14:44 |
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| thiago_home | Venemo: I can't tell if you're joking | 14:44 |
| alterego | thiago_home: why are you multiplying by op2? | 14:44 |
| thiago_home | alterego: oops :-) | 14:44 |
| lcuk | lbt, then the only answer is to code up a perl interpreter using javascript! | 14:44 |
| * lbt starts | 14:45 | |
| lbt | hmm | 14:45 |
| lbt | parrot | 14:45 |
| Venemo | lbt, xml sux less than js | 14:45 |
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| lbt | Venemo: yes... | 14:45 |
| thiago_home | Venemo: QML was a XML language, until we changed it so that it was human-readable | 14:45 |
| thiago_home | XML = markup | 14:45 |
| thiago_home | JS = language | 14:45 |
| RST38h | ahhahahaha | 14:45 |
| lcuk | RST38h, you missed the last few pages of people doing similar | 14:46 |
| Venemo | thiago_home, I'm sorry to hear that | 14:46 |
| lbt | it's sunday | 14:46 |
| RST38h | You do understand the irony, given that XMLhas been designed as a human readable data representation language? :) | 14:46 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: I guess I have... | 14:46 |
| Venemo | anyway, I'll be back later | 14:46 |
| lbt | RST38h: it failed | 14:46 |
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| * lbt goes back to his ruby | 14:47 | |
| RST38h | lbt: something I never doubted | 14:47 |
| lbt | ruby also sucks | 14:47 |
| RST38h | Ruby will also fail. | 14:47 |
| lbt | but mainly at the community level :) | 14:47 |
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| alterego | Ruby is awesome | 14:47 |
| RST38h | On rails and otherwise. | 14:47 |
| alterego | Probably the best dynamic OOO language around | 14:48 |
| alterego | s/OOO/OO/ | 14:48 |
| infobot | alterego meant: Probably the best dynamic OO language around | 14:48 |
| lbt | Ruby is actually very cool ... rubyistas are seriously flawed | 14:48 |
| lcuk | the very first game I personally purchased for my zx spectrum was called Ruby Runabout :) | 14:48 |
| * lbt thinks lcuk should google more | 14:48 | |
| lcuk | from local papershop for £1 I believe | 14:48 |
| RST38h | Ruby is one scripting language too many | 14:48 |
| alterego | It's better than Perl | 14:49 |
| lbt | the sad thing about ruby is that java people seem to like it | 14:49 |
| RST38h | Perl and Python and PHP are really sufficient | 14:49 |
| alterego | PHP is shit | 14:49 |
| alterego | Perl is a fuckin' mess | 14:49 |
| alterego | Python is a bit of a joke | 14:49 |
| RST38h | lbt: That is because java people like toy languages | 14:49 |
| alterego | Pythons' main problem is it's popularity. | 14:49 |
| RST38h | alterego <-- must have been a Java coder =) | 14:50 |
| alterego | Hell, most of the Perl guys say that Ruby is what Perl should have been. | 14:50 |
| lbt | PHP .... mmm ... not convinced that that's not a russian mafia long-term strategy to own the web | 14:50 |
| alterego | No, I realy don't like Java :P | 14:50 |
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| RST38h | PHP is useful | 14:51 |
| RST38h | PERL is useful | 14:51 |
| RST38h | Python is.... well, useful to somepeople, given what I am seeing | 14:51 |
| RST38h | Ruby is...meh. | 14:51 |
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| alterego | PHP, well, it's like JavaScript for service side templating (yuk), Perl, horrible syntax, messy libraries and aweful "programmers". Python good programmers, just a really bad idea of what OO is. | 14:51 |
| ar | perl is useful. python is useful, somewhat. ruby is useful. php makes me want to puke | 14:52 |
| alterego | I don't mind Python that much, but some things just make me want to rewrite whole apps in Ruby .. | 14:52 |
| wazd | Cobol to rule them all | 14:52 |
| lbt | yeah ... try packaging them | 14:52 |
| RST38h | php is useful whilemaking you want to puke, correct | 14:52 |
| lbt | true | 14:53 |
| alterego | Luckily I've never had to use PHP, well, not in the past 5 years. | 14:53 |
| RST38h | But, really, if you keep it clean, it is ok | 14:53 |
| alterego | RST38h: like most things it's more about the person using the tools :P | 14:53 |
| RST38h | true | 14:53 |
| RST38h | You can screw up in pretty much any language | 14:54 |
| lcuk | lbt that is the most important thing | 14:54 |
| alterego | But all the PHP code I've seen has made me want to walk of the edge of a very tall cliff | 14:54 |
| lcuk | which people miss | 14:54 |
| alterego | Anyhow, this is a bit OT :P | 14:54 |
| alterego | All I wanted to do was have a human friendly duration indicator in my QML app :P | 14:55 |
| * lbt really does go back to his ruby ... :) | 14:55 | |
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| RST38h | alterego: isn't there a component for that? | 14:57 |
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| alterego | RST38h: from Qt components? Not using it. | 14:58 |
| alterego | RST38h: also it's just to format an integer into '00:00' mm:ss format. | 14:58 |
| RST38h | hm | 14:58 |
| alterego | No, not hours :P | 14:59 |
| RST38h | I have been under impression that QML already has a set of standard components for all these widgets | 15:01 |
| RST38h | Am I still wrong? | 15:01 |
| alterego | Yes | 15:01 |
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| thiago_home | it's getting one | 15:02 |
| RST38h | Umgh | 15:02 |
| alterego | RST38h: QML in built "components": http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qdeclarativeelements.html | 15:02 |
| wathek | any idea how to get Multi Gestures ? | 15:03 |
| alterego | Qt Components is creating a generic themed widget set | 15:03 |
| alterego | But that's not released properly and I'm not even sure what the meego state is now .. | 15:03 |
| * RST38h sighs: that QML announcement may have come a bit too early =) | 15:04 | |
| thiago_home | alterego: it's going on well | 15:04 |
| alterego | RST38h: which announcement? | 15:04 |
| RST38h | alterego: QML | 15:04 |
| alterego | thiago_home: yeah, maybe for Symbian :P | 15:04 |
| thiago_home | alterego: we'll talk about it in the meego conf | 15:04 |
| alterego | thiago_home: oh, neat. | 15:04 |
| RST38h | alterego: I mean, without a widget set, the whole thing is a bit pointless | 15:04 |
| alterego | thiago_home: the problem is I'm writing a QML app for 1.2 :) | 15:04 |
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| alterego | thiago_home: more specifically probably Nokia N900 MeeGo DE | 15:05 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: that's why the widget set is being developed | 15:05 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: you can't complete it entirely before releasing | 15:05 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: release early, release often, remember? | 15:05 |
| RST38h | Yea, but this isn't always true | 15:06 |
| alterego | thiago_home: http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/research/qmldialer/20110227_130312.png | 15:06 |
| RST38h | Release a car without wheels, and few people will stick around to see those wheels | 15:06 |
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| alterego | RST38h: bad analogy, this is more like missing seats and internal trimmings :P | 15:06 |
| alterego | RST38h: but they give you the tools to create those trimmings how you want :P | 15:07 |
| RST38h | Ok, s/wheels/seats/ | 15:07 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: or like release the engine and let people make their own cars | 15:07 |
| alterego | Which is fine for some things, but stuff that's supposed to be part of the UX (like my dialer) requires theming .. | 15:07 |
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| RST38h | Maybe there is some quickway to wrap standard QWidgets into components? | 15:08 |
| alterego | I don't even care about MeeGo buttons, I just want the colour palette. | 15:08 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: it's doable | 15:09 |
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| thiago_home | RST38h: however, it's not a very good idea, as standard QWidgets aren't well supported in mobile environments either | 15:09 |
| RST38h | Oh | 15:09 |
| RST38h | Haven't we been told to write in standard Qt to provide compatibility between desktop andhandheld? | 15:10 |
| alterego | RST38h: that was with Maemo about a year ago :P | 15:10 |
| RST38h | So, a year has passed, and this is no longer true? | 15:10 |
| thiago_home | that was before QWidgets on mobile became impossible | 15:10 |
| alterego | RST38h: things are moving _very_ quickly at the moment. | 15:10 |
| RST38h | Why are QWidgets impossible on mobile? | 15:10 |
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| thiago_home | RST38h: it's just not possible to do with QWidgets what the UX designers want | 15:11 |
| thiago_home | rotation, animation, effects, ... | 15:11 |
| alterego | thiago_home: it is, but it's not possible for UX designers to do it themselves ;) | 15:11 |
| RST38h | Well, given that I am not the UX designer, and just want to write an app | 15:12 |
| alterego | Qt has the animation framework as well. | 15:12 |
| alterego | It's just you have to know how to use it. | 15:12 |
| RST38h | Is it true that I can no longer use QWidgets for that? | 15:12 |
| alterego | RST38h: no | 15:12 |
| alterego | You can still use QWidgets, your problem will be with native UX integration, like themes. | 15:13 |
| thiago_home | you can | 15:13 |
| RST38h | Ok | 15:13 |
| thiago_home | but your QWidget-based app will not look completely right with MTF-based native UX | 15:13 |
| alterego | But this actually isn't an issue for MeeGo, as MeeGo will support QWidget UIS | 15:13 |
| RST38h | So, QWidgets will not be themeable inside Meego UX? | 15:13 |
| alterego | And we have a MeeGo theme bridge. | 15:13 |
| RST38h | Ahha! | 15:13 |
| thiago_home | we have the theme bridge | 15:13 |
| thiago_home | we have the theme | 15:13 |
| thiago_home | but it just doesn't look right | 15:13 |
| RST38h | So, if someone wraps QWidgets into QML components, you immediately get a semiusable QML component set? | 15:14 |
| RST38h | Maybe it will not rotate, but it is still better than no widgets at all,right? | 15:14 |
| thiago_home | right | 15:15 |
| thiago_home | "a tomato is better than nothing" | 15:15 |
| alterego | RST38h: http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/research/Screenshot-20110128-124225.png | 15:15 |
| alterego | RST38h: GLES2 background, QWidget painting into a QML component overlayed on top :) | 15:15 |
| alterego | For "apps" I don't think themes are important. | 15:16 |
| thiago_home | but it's probably easier to write the components in proper QML instead of wrapping the QWidgets into QGraphicsProxyWidgets and inserting them into QML | 15:16 |
| alterego | Well, for a lot of apps that are basically stand alone UXs | 15:16 |
| thiago_home | and, hey, it's what we're doing | 15:16 |
| RST38h | Look nice, although I guess it is your own widget not the stock one=) | 15:16 |
| alterego | thiago_home: no | 15:16 |
| alterego | thiago_home: well, depends if the QWidget already exists. | 15:16 |
| RST38h | yes, I am talking about the stock Qt widget set, not the new ones | 15:17 |
| thiago_home | alterego: do you really want Plastique look-and-feel on mobile? | 15:17 |
| alterego | thiago_home: no :P | 15:17 |
| thiago_home | so we don't actually have the style... | 15:17 |
| alterego | thiago_home: most of my apps are all self-contained UXs, like for instance: http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/columbus/index.html | 15:18 |
| alterego | thiago_home: which is QWidget based. | 15:18 |
| alterego | The bottom row of pictures show that I do depend on some stock QWidgets (and some Maemo5 specific ones too) | 15:18 |
| thiago_home | alterego: the top row is perfectly doable in QML | 15:19 |
| alterego | thiago_home: I've already done it in QML :P | 15:19 |
| thiago_home | the bottom row isn't, nor with current QWidgets | 15:19 |
| alterego | Not those shots. | 15:19 |
| alterego | But I've ported my custom widgets to QtQuick components. | 15:20 |
| alterego | And had them working in QML | 15:20 |
| lcuk | alterego, plenty of people are hacking qml in the open, Jaffa just posted the repository for his attitude qml port | 15:21 |
| lcuk | gitorious.org/attitude if you are interested | 15:21 |
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| alterego | Yeah, seen it | 15:22 |
| alterego | Anyhow, until Qt Components, which is unlikely to be part of MeeGo until 1.3 | 15:22 |
| alterego | QML is somewhat annoying .. | 15:22 |
| alterego | At least for "core" apps .. | 15:23 |
| alterego | Like my dialer . | 15:23 |
| lcuk | have you made notes/filed bugs about this? | 15:24 |
| lcuk | and I mean real ones - if you are encountering blockers it would be best to allow people to work in parallel to cure them | 15:24 |
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| alterego | Well, right now I don't know if SystemPalette is working. | 15:25 |
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| lcuk | alterego, IRC is not a bug tracker :P | 15:25 |
| alterego | So I have to wait until I can get a new image with a working Qt MeeGo Touch theme bridge. | 15:25 |
| alterego | But this isn't really a bug. | 15:26 |
| alterego | IT's just an annoyance. | 15:26 |
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| alterego | There's no spec that states that QML should have the ability to expose MeeGo theme details. | 15:26 |
| * lcuk heads off to meego manchester pint | 15:26 | |
| alterego | (Which is what Qt Components is for) | 15:26 |
| lcuk | ps, can you change the full theme on iphone? | 15:27 |
| alterego | iPhone doesn't have themes :P | 15:27 |
| alterego | It has iOS UX | 15:27 |
| CosmoHill | lcuk: you can't be part of the apple "elite" (knobs) if you customises your iphone | 15:28 |
| RST38h | Still, QML is probably the best thing there ever was for quickly writingthe core app set | 15:28 |
| lcuk | ++ | 15:29 |
| alterego | RST38h: shame no one has yet :) | 15:29 |
| RST38h | Nokia partially tried to do the same with the web browser (see Ovi Maps and the Conversations UIs), but the browser appears to be too heavy for the job | 15:30 |
| RST38h | alterego: Well, no standard component set => no apps | 15:30 |
| alterego | Yeah | 15:30 |
| RST38h | alterego: As I said, QML makes no sense without base widget set | 15:30 |
| alterego | Well, makes no sense for core apps :P | 15:31 |
| alterego | For standalone apps that want their own UX, like games. | 15:31 |
| alterego | It's fine. | 15:31 |
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| lcuk | alterego, which games are on QML now? | 15:34 |
| alterego | Well, that answers that one | 15:35 |
| alterego | lcuk: which apps are in QML now? :P | 15:35 |
| alterego | I don't know, except that bubble example one anyway | 15:35 |
| alterego | Hrm, well, prototype doesn't work in QML javascript :( | 15:36 |
| alterego | Oh yes it does :D | 15:36 |
| alterego | My day just got a bit brighter. | 15:37 |
| RST38h | Folks, stop demonstrating how useless QML in its current state is :) | 15:38 |
| RST38h | Better show it to all thsese MIDP people! Instant win for them if they can sell the result | 15:39 |
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| wathek | I'd like to know when the QGestureRecognizer changes the QGesture::state to QGestureRecognizer::CancelGesture or QGestureRecognizer::FinishGesture is the QGesture killed ? | 18:43 |
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| lcukn900 | rst38h earlier you said nothing uses qml for now but that is not true since the meego tablet build uses it | 18:50 |
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| alterego | Good point :) | 18:50 |
| lcukn900 | indeeed | 18:52 |
| lcukn900 | btw meego manchester pint was good | 18:52 |
| lcukn900 | now we have a pub to meet in and can grow it | 18:52 |
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| alterego | :) | 18:52 |
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| alterego | lcukn900: got some new images now: http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/research/qmldialer | 18:59 |
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| lcukn900 | alterego cool! where is the qml to try? | 19:13 |
| alterego | Erm, I need to clean some stuff up so it doesn't actually depend on my C++ app | 19:14 |
| alterego | That way you can use it in qmlviewer. | 19:14 |
| alterego | I'll stick it up in about an hour I reckon. | 19:14 |
| lcukn900 | awesome, but I thought recommendation was to have c++ app alongside? | 19:15 |
| alterego | lcukn900: yeah, the application core will be in C++, which will bootstrap a Qml UI | 19:16 |
| alterego | The actual interface between the two doesn't have to be so tight that you can't run the Qml in qmlviewer just to have a demo of the UX | 19:16 |
| alterego | (at least for the moment) what's stoping it from working in qmlviewer at the moment is a small theme bridge I exposed, but as I'm not even using that anymore I'm going to replace it with a pure qml/javascript version. | 19:17 |
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| * CosmoHill stabs BT infinity for being vauge, confusing and too user friendly | 19:17 | |
| lcukn900 | altrtego so with qmlviewer and pure qml you think can access the required api for dialing/ofono components | 19:18 |
| alterego | lcukn900: no :) | 19:18 |
| alterego | lcukn900: still need the C++ interface for that. | 19:18 |
| alterego | What I'm saying is, in a little bit I can give you my QML code, which you can run directly on your N900 under maemo or meego, it wont make calls, but you can play with the UI :P | 19:19 |
| * lcukn900 wonders whether auto library/introspection/instantiation would be possible down the line | 19:19 | |
| alterego | It may be possible already. | 19:19 |
| alterego | But the dialer needs to be a dbus service. | 19:19 |
| alterego | (itself) | 19:19 |
| alterego | So it has to be a native application | 19:20 |
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| moshind | s | 19:20 |
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| lcukn900 | mmm alterego ok | 19:22 |
| alterego | Though, I don't know whether the service framework in mobility being exposed to QtQuick makes the alternative a possibility. | 19:24 |
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| lcuk | Alcohol content in Guinness in #manchester seems higher than anywhere else atm | 19:47 |
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| timeless_w7ip | sp3000: *sigh* | 22:18 |
| timeless_w7ip | merging is hard | 22:18 |
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| pupnik | what exactly are you up to timeless_w7ip ? | 22:19 |
| timeless_w7ip | and dealing w/ cron using gmail is sad | 22:20 |
| timeless_w7ip | pupnik: oh, i had changes on mxr.meego.com which i was sending upstream | 22:20 |
| timeless_w7ip | but when i pulled the changes in from upstream, i ended up w/ 2 copies of subs | 22:21 |
| timeless_w7ip | which caused the scripts to fail | 22:21 |
| pupnik | hmm | 22:21 |
| timeless_w7ip | which was reported by cron, which was marked as spam by gmail | 22:21 |
| timeless_w7ip | so, first i had to fish the cron reports out of spam :( | 22:21 |
| timeless_w7ip | and then i removed the duplicate patches | 22:21 |
| timeless_w7ip | i'll find out tomorrow if cron is less unhappy :) | 22:22 |
| pupnik | these are browser commites? | 22:22 |
| pupnik | commits? | 22:22 |
| timeless_w7ip | no | 22:22 |
| timeless_w7ip | mxr | 22:22 |
| timeless_w7ip | the cross reference itself is versioned :) | 22:23 |
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| RST38bis | no cellphone though? | 22:42 |
| RST38bis | sorry, wrong channel | 22:43 |
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| lcuk | ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] | 23:16 |
| Santer | ok | 23:16 |
| lcuk | err crap | 23:16 |
| lcuk | if I put my laptop back on the side should I also paste a load of [[[[[[ to compensate? | 23:16 |
| berndhs | no those [ should have gone first | 23:16 |
| timeless_w7ip | berndhs++ | 23:17 |
| lcuk | heh | 23:17 |
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| timeless_w7ip | lcuk: you need to observe proper sequencing | 23:18 |
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| timeless_w7ip | what you can do is tilt your laptop back the other way in advance to prepare for the next time :) | 23:18 |
| timeless_w7ip | it's like keeping a positive balance in a bank account ;-) | 23:18 |
| lcuk | i normally close the lid before moving it | 23:18 |
| lcuk | positive balance it tricky with family | 23:18 |
| lcuk | though I could solve both problems and sell the kids | 23:19 |
| timeless_w7ip | is that a first come first served problem? | 23:19 |
| lcuk | hah | 23:19 |
| * lcuk notes the time | 23:24 | |
| lcuk | technical problem: given an SVG or other single pixel thickness line (autocad calls it a hairline afaik) when you start compositing it looks like poo because of scaling issues | 23:26 |
| lcuk | how do operating systems solve this? | 23:27 |
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| timeless_w7ip | define solve? | 23:27 |
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| lcuk | timeless_w7ip, make things look pretty | 23:33 |
| timeless_w7ip | got an example where you think something similar doesn't look like poo/ | 23:35 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: You mean the aliasing artefacts (i.e. "stepping")? The fix is "anti-aliasing" ;-) | 23:36 |
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| lcuk | Jaffa, yeah but that adds an extra layer of complexity to an already bulding compositing operation | 23:42 |
| lcuk | s/bulding/bulging/ | 23:42 |
| infobot | lcuk meant: Jaffa, yeah but that adds an extra layer of complexity to an already bulging compositing operation | 23:42 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: But the compositor can take advantage of multi-bit alpha channels to better achieve the effect. | 23:46 |
| lcuk | an alpha channel is not used for AA? | 23:47 |
| lcuk | the alpha blending is next bit really | 23:47 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: You could do if you knew you were drawing lines for compositing purposes. | 23:47 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, take attitude for exampe | 23:48 |
| lcuk | would you know that you were just about to be composited and do something different? | 23:48 |
| Jaffa | No, but I'd expect Qt to if I requested a single pixel line and had specified a rotational transformation (even ignoring the 80% opacity) | 23:49 |
| lcuk | doing stuff at hairwidth and 1:1 scale is slightly different | 23:49 |
| lcuk | because there the app has control over each pixel | 23:49 |
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| lcuk | but then you take that pixmap created | 23:49 |
| lcuk | and scale it to view in dashboard | 23:50 |
| lcuk | at a scale unknown to the app | 23:50 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: Compositor can use things other than a simple average, such as the last algorithm on The GIMP which uses, AFAICT, an edge-detection/high-frequency filter to ensure prominent details are retained | 23:51 |
| alterego | AA is usually done with subsampling .. | 23:51 |
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| lcuk | Jaffa, sounds cpu/gpu intensive though | 23:52 |
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| lbt | also depends whether you retransform after blending down | 23:53 |
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| lbt | or retain the SVG and re-render each element (which is what CAD does) | 23:53 |
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| lcuk | lbt yeah but then it gets really complex because your svg is embedded deep within the rest of the ui | 23:54 |
| lbt | it's just an object | 23:54 |
| lcuk | and would require changes to the window manager to do | 23:55 |
| lbt | or some kind of expose | 23:55 |
| lcuk | lbt yeah | 23:55 |
| lcuk | but then the WM must be told to do this for specific windows | 23:55 |
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| alterego | Does wayland do anything like what you're talking about? | 23:56 |
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| alterego | Aparantly it's going to be the king of desktop acceleration, or something .. | 23:56 |
| lcuk | alterego, not sure but the discussion is related | 23:56 |
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| lbt | hmm - a cheap 3D window mgr would re-transform the 2D representation of a 3D app - a good 3D wmgr would pass the transform through... | 23:57 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: I think most OSes currently just re-sample the image, using the GPU (if you're talking about task switchers etc) | 23:57 |
| * lbt wonders if Qt could composite a WM provided transform into the app viewport and return it to the WM ? | 23:58 | |
| lcuk | Jaffa, those with GPU power to spare, sure | 23:58 |
| lcuk | here is the reason I am asking: http://liqbase.net/Screenshot-20110314-225450.png | 23:58 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Even on Maemo 5 on N900 (AFAICT) | 23:59 |
| lcuk | that is composited clock | 23:59 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Should be possible. Imagine it'd be an fd.o spec? | 23:59 |
| lcuk | the clock data is 800*480 bitmap | 23:59 |
| lcuk | then composited down | 23:59 |
| lbt | it'd be interesting | 23:59 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Oh. OK. | 23:59 |
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