IRC log of #meego for Friday, 2011-03-18

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gabrbeddlbt: Looks like they got your flowers. :-)00:01
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lbtgabrbedd: what makes you say that?00:03
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gabrbeddlbt: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2011-March/003798.html00:04
lbthehe00:04
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krzysiek_I've question about new local meego network - I'hv problem with name00:10
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naknomikIf I use a netbook image on an exopc tablet, everything works fine including touch, but my touch app written in Qt doesn't respond to touch input. The same works just fine on Lenovo S10-3t with same netbook image.00:11
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krzysiek_meego wiki suggest MeeGo CC  but Country Code is to general  in my case00:12
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barrocaseeya00:12
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krzysiek_Can I use MeeGo CIt Name?00:12
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gabrbeddnaknomik: What touchscreen does it have? (sudo lsusb -v | more)00:13
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* w00t_ cheers00:18
w00t_it builds :)00:18
w00t_now I just need to make it work... :)00:19
gabrbeddnaknomik: I'm about to leave... FYI.  :-)00:19
naknomikgabrbedd: touch is working only my qt app won't00:19
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gabrbeddnaknomik: What touchscreen does it have?  You can find out by looking through the output of this command:  sudo lsusb -v00:20
gabrbeddnaknomik: It's possible that it needs to be hooked into the xorg mtev driver through xorg.conf00:20
w00t_mnementh: kaitlin__: if you're curious as to what I'm thinking, take a look at http://w00t.dereferenced.net/p/t/pastebin20110317-29669-ru23nk-0.txt00:20
w00t_warning: yes, it is big... :)00:20
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w00t_it is a lot more conceptually safe, though (no more storing pointers to QContact, which isn't a very good idea), less leaks and bad behaviour in some cases.. and fully asynchronous :)00:21
w00t_it also doesn't have the Me card stuff in there yet00:21
w00t_also, doesn't actually work - yet :)00:21
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mnementhw00t_: i especially like the it doesn't actually work yet. ;)00:27
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w00t_mnementh: it builds - ship it!00:27
* w00t_ starts poking around at contact saving to figure out what he's doing wrong00:27
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mnementhw00t_: i like what i see so far. I've been wanting to cleanup libseaside forever. thanks for your help as i didn't have bandwidth. :) and i never liked the pointers.00:30
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mnementhw00t_: woot! <- how's that for redundant ;)00:31
w00t_hehe :)00:31
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w00t_ah, d'oh, not setting the manager on the requests00:35
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w00t_\o/00:35
w00t_contact saved and loaded00:35
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w00t_note to self... when trying to save contacts, it helps to be using a persistent QContactManager :)00:46
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berndhsw00t_: ah, just get to know new people, saving contacts is overrated00:47
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w00t_haha00:47
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lbtquimgil: http://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/whats-point-community-obs00:50
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w00t_and there we go, add, edit, and remove contacts all seem to work00:50
w00t_... he says, shortly before editing a contact fails miserably00:51
berndhsTSG meet tomorrow, the flowers worked00:52
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quimgillbt: thanks so much!00:58
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kaitlin__w00t_: I haven't applied your patch yet, but it looks like it'll make things so much cleaner.01:00
w00t_kaitlin__: it's not ready for applying yet, still need to stomp on bugs and do some tidyup01:00
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w00t_that was just a fyi sort of thing :)01:00
lbtquimgil: H bit OK?01:01
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quimgillbt: in line with whatever discussions there has been in meego-community and CO meetings01:02
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quimgilberndhs: a very interesting TSG meeting, indeed01:02
lbtOK01:02
lbtberndhs: I did wonder if they'd get there today... would be nice to think so ;)01:03
quimgillbt: now go to sleep only to find out next morning in Engadget that 'a new "fremantle" device3 is in the plans' etc etc  ;)01:03
lbt*g*01:04
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lilianzialilianz: hi01:08
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naknomiklilianz: hi01:09
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pixelgeek1Hi naknomik01:09
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rdesfohello01:12
rdesfois there a way to install yum?01:12
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CosmoHillMeeGo uses Zypper01:13
rdesfoI get an error when I try to add it in the app manager01:13
rdesfooh01:13
CosmoHillhave you read the FAQ?01:13
rdesfoI guess I need to01:13
CosmoHillin that case I'll go and update it01:13
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CosmoHillsooner or later I'll stop being surprised when I log first attempt01:14
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* CosmoHill wonders why one 2GB memory card is bigger than the other 2GB memory card01:47
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lbthttp://securosis.com/blog/rsa-breached-secureid-affected02:09
CosmoHilllbt: if I read that I won't feel guilty about skipping today's lecture02:10
lbttoo late it's past midnight02:11
* lbt -> bed ..... o/02:11
CosmoHillnight02:11
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CosmoHill cyas02:32
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lcukgnite CosmoHill02:33
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lcukCosmoHill, what is on your agenda for tomorrow?02:33
lcukbah :P02:33
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gabrbeddlcuk: The same as always.02:37
gabrbeddlcuk: To try and take over the WORLD.02:37
berndhsgabrbedd: so what's the plan for the afternoon ?02:37
lcukthat is why he fails02:37
lcukyou do not try, you achieve.02:38
berndhstake over world, have lunch, then what ?02:38
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gabrbeddberndhs: Then there's a TSC meeting.02:41
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berndhsyes, forgot about that part02:41
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gabrbedd:-)02:42
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lcuk#02:44
lcuk#02:44
lcuk02:44
lcukIf we did all the things we are capable of, we would literally astound ourselves. ~ Thomas Edison02:44
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iekkugood morning07:36
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pumpithi guys morning07:49
Stskeepsgoodmorning07:49
pumpiti am a new guy to meego can anyone tell the installation process of meego07:50
Stskeepswhich vertical? handset, netbook, etc?07:50
pumpithandset Stskeeps07:50
Stskeepsthat really varies then - most people just write the system to SD card07:50
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pumpiti am a web developer though meego is a new os and i want to develop mobile applications using meego07:52
Stskeepsthen you may need the handset-ia32-mtf images07:52
Stskeepsright, then i would advise you to look at Qt SDK and QML then07:52
pumpitok07:53
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pumpitStskeeps there is no simulator devices in the sdl like in android07:59
pumpitsdk*07:59
Stskeepsthere is07:59
pumpitok08:00
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Evanescence怎么取消ubuntu里的F1 键绑定的 HELP文档,和vim的F1 冲突08:06
Evanescencesorry , wrong08:06
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slonopotamusEvanescence: charset troubles?08:06
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Evanescenceslonopotamus: no, Em,, wrong channel , so wrong input08:15
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bkalingafrom where i can download "meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux i686.tar.gz "08:31
bkalingait is required for my meego target update08:31
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Jartzaargh08:42
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JartzaI'm just getting segmentation faults with qemu when trying to run meego-handset-ia32 images08:42
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Jartzamad remote -r meego-handset-ia32-qemu-1.1.2-runtime poweron08:49
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Jartzashows the emulator window, starts loading stuff and then qemugl segfaults :(08:50
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bkalingaAny idea.. from where can i get meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux_i686.tar.gz08:54
bkalinganot able to find on repo08:55
bkalingacan some one point to its exact location08:55
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timeless_w7ipbkalinga: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux_i686.tar.gz+-meego.gitorious.org09:03
timeless_w7iphttp://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.meego.sdk/103809:03
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bkalingatimeless_w7ip: http://download3.meego.com/meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-w32_i686.tar.gz gives error code09:05
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bkalingaso thought it was removed from there09:05
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timeless_w7ipbkalinga: did you consider reading the mailing list?09:06
timeless_w7ipreally.... reading is a requirement09:06
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bkalingayou mean archives?09:06
timeless_w7ipi mean the one thread i cited just for you09:06
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timeless_w7ipwhich you would have found had you searched for the file you can't find...09:07
timeless_w7ipas in the lmgtfy.com link above09:07
bkalingasorry i did not open the second link..i thought of the link u posted for some one else in some other context :)09:08
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vgradespot the Meego device from the Birmingham meetup, http://twitpic.com/4afoh209:14
vgradecan you get them all?09:15
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timeless_w7ipvgrade: i hope the mbp is running meego ;-)09:17
timeless_w7ipi can't recognize the laptop that's sitting behind the ideapad at the very top right corner, but i hope it too is running meego ;-)09:17
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vgradelaptops not included :)09:18
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vgradeN900, O2 Joggler, Advent Vega, WeTab, ExoPc09:21
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bkalingahttp://pastebin.com/ireh0PMP09:23
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bkalingaCan not find '/usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/cache/meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux_i686.tar.gz' -- no such file.09:23
bkalingastill i am not able to locate this file in http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/09:23
lofty306oh geez... didnt see the n900 at first vgrade the pegatron is massive09:24
timeless_w7ipdid you *read* the thread??09:24
timeless_w7iplofty306: rule of thumb, look for things that glow :)09:25
timeless_w7ipthus my first query about the mbp :)09:25
lofty306i thought it was a buisness card rack09:25
timeless_w7ip(the apple logo is supposed to glow)09:25
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lofty306prab haas tooo many pints09:26
lofty306ok i gotta wakeup09:27
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bkalinga timeless_w7ip:Search for "sysroot" and update to latest available sysroot: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.1.90.3.20110215.10/handset/images/meego-handset-ia32-madde-sysroot/meego-handset-ia32-madde-sysroot-1.1.90.3.20110215.10-fs.tar.gz09:30
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bkalingayou want me to do this step09:30
* timeless_w7ip shrugs09:30
timeless_w7ipsomeone wants me to go to work and attend a meeting09:30
bkalingaok09:30
timeless_w7ipi have no specific wants for you beyond "google first, ask questions later [after reading results]"09:31
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* lofty306 throws the sdk update target script at bkalinga and a new sysroot09:31
bkalingasure.. but all ready tried that this set-up is really cumbersome :)09:32
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lofty306the reading google results part?09:32
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bkalinga...cache/madde.conf.d/meego-core-ia32-trunk.conf  contains "file meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-w32_i686.tar.gz09:39
bkalingaurl http://download3.meego.com/meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-w32_i686.tar.gz"09:39
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bkalingai am not getting what shall the replace that url with as i don't see that file in repo.meego.com09:40
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Myrttibkalinga: so you ran the script?09:42
bkalingayes09:42
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bkalingahttp://pastebin.com/tPwH2ZK909:42
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bkalinga Myrtti: ls usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/cache/madde.conf.d : http://pastebin.com/hjdxyumc09:45
bkalingado you see any file i need to change for its sysroot as suggested by  timeless_w7ip:09:45
Myrttidid I appear as I'd know anything about the subject? sorry, I don't.09:46
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bkalingaok...you asked whether i ran the script...so thought you will be knowing...no problem thanks09:47
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timeless_officelcuk; so ... how well do you know obs?10:06
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timeless_officei'm wondering how much control we'd have over obs10:06
timeless_officebecause... if i could alter obs such that during the prep stage, any of a set of commands triggered a magic trigger first before doing what it wanted10:06
timeless_officei could probably change obs such that it automatically created dvcs revisions for packages as it went10:07
timeless_officesomething like:10:07
timeless_officegrab rpm, source, extract, calculate dvcs repo, clone repo (no update), prepare-for-prep-by-tainting-env, %prep10:08
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timeless_officeif a taintained command happens trigger dvcs-magic-commit + untaint env + trigger actual command10:08
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timeless_officeafter prep, dvcs-magic-commit (if not triggered before) + untaint env10:09
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timeless_officeif the build succeeds, push dvcs changeset10:09
timeless_officedvcs magic commit which set the working directory parent to the 'best match' based on the version from the spec file without doing an actual checkout10:10
timeless_officeand then commit with a commit message based on the package version10:10
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timeless_officedone this way, we'd get patched sources and could watch deltas10:10
timeless_officewe could even do one better by having the system do an initial import if it can't find the right dvcs repo10:11
timeless_officeso we'd get pristine-commit, patched-1, patched-2, ...10:11
timeless_officeit wouldn't properly recognize when the baseline changes, but i think it'd mostly work10:11
timeless_officeand we could for meego do even better in that iiuc, the base version of a package is supposed to change when you pull a new upstream10:12
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timeless_officeso it could do a pristine-commit-1 over pristine-commit when it detects that case before triggering the %prep stuff10:12
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timeless_officeok, so... now i kinda want someone who actually knows something about obs ;)10:13
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timeless_officeaww, we don't use lvm10:20
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thiago_homenot much need on devices where you can't add disks10:20
thiago_homebesides, btrfs does many of the things we used to need lvm for10:21
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timeless_officethiago: well, if i want to file bugs about it, it's hard if i you guys don't host it :)11:02
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bkalinga23: Can't open /usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/madlib/madlib.sh error coming if i remove meego1.1 and try installing meego1.2 Test release11:13
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thiagotimeless_office: sorry, what?11:16
timeless_officethiago; i'm filing bugs about random crappy code11:17
timeless_officei can't file bugs to bugs.meego.com about random crappy code in module X if meego doesn't use randy crappy module X :)11:17
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bkalingaCan't open /usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/madlib/madlib.sh error  while trying to install meego1.2 Test release11:41
bkalingaanyone faced this problem11:41
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lcukwhat time today do submissions to the MeeGo CFP for San Fran Conf have to be in by?11:57
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lbtlcuk: thiago's bedtime12:01
lcuklbt haha - so if people want longer they should also mail cups of coffee to him12:02
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lbt"Submissions will be due by 11:59 PM Pacific Time on March 18, 2011"12:02
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tackat_lbt: that's in about 24 h, right? :)12:04
lbt~22h I think12:04
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lbtthiago: ping12:05
thiagolbt: pong12:06
thiagowe've agreed to postpone the deadline, but we haven't announced it yet12:07
lbtOK12:07
iekkulcuk, I sent mine today12:07
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lbtI'd suggest doing that ASAP since people who think the DL is tonight may need the boost12:07
lcukiekku, :D awesome, what was it about?(link would be good!)12:08
lbtthiago: the question was about "If you will need travel support, note this in your submission, also"12:08
iekkuhttp://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/bug%E2%80%99s-life-presentation-bug%E2%80%99s-life-cycle12:08
lbtI did a quick keyword search for travel and saw nothing12:08
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lcukiekku, :D please tell me you and andre will have fly swatters on stage :D12:08
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Stskeepsno, better, dressed up in bug customes12:09
Stskeeps:P12:09
thiagolbt: you need travel support?12:09
Stskeepscostumes12:09
lbtthiago: sadly12:09
lcuklol12:09
iekkuStskeeps, I look like a bug, said my boss...12:09
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lbtthiago: Nokia probably won't be sending me this time - and nor will Nomovok12:09
andre__I just look wasted, as usual.12:09
lbtI asked12:09
iekkuandre__, so we are nice couple12:10
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andre__:-D12:10
iekkuandre__, a punk and a wasted guy12:10
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iekkusorry, wasted looking guy12:11
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lbtso thiago do I just put a footer into the abstract (which looks a bit odd)12:13
thiagolbt: you can ask for that. Just write it at the bottom of your abstract.12:13
andre__iekku: hehe12:13
Stskeepsand please file a bug regarding that to the confernece website component12:13
w00t_lbt: registration asks if you're planning on being a speaker12:15
w00t_perhaps that's related12:15
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lbtno, it asks if you *are* a speaker12:15
lbtwhich you have to go in and edit after your session is approved12:16
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lbtwhich is kinda clumsy ... but hard to avoid12:17
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lcukhttp://news.softpedia.com/news/AMD-Wants-More-Fusion-Tablets-Investigates-Android-and-MeeGo-190280.shtml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter13:02
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alteregoneat13:02
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lcukhas anyone actually tried getting the tablet UX built onto a handset?13:16
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alteregolcuk: it's not released yet :(13:19
alteregoEveryone wants to :)13:19
alteregoI wonder what they're using for look&feel13:19
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bkalingamy sudo mad-admin list does not show any entry [for 1.2 prerelese Meego SDK]13:28
bkalingaTargets:13:28
bkalingaRuntimes:13:28
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lcukalterego, haven't I seen tablet UX on the joggler already?13:28
lcukvgrade ping13:28
bkalingawhat i need to do ??I followed http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.2-preview-under-progress13:28
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lcukbkalinga, I do not go through these steps too often, but have you gone through the: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.2-preview-under-progress#Add_MeeGo_SDK_1.1.80_and_later_targets13:29
bkalingayes same link i followed13:30
bkalingathat talks about  update of target13:30
bkalingabut how to create if its not there13:31
bkalingai dont have madde.conf.d /13:31
bkalingawhile installing Meego1.1 sudo mad-admin list13:34
bkalingagave some target and run-times so created the target with sudo mad-admin create -f <target>13:34
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bkalingabut while installing Meego1.2 pre-release "sudo mad-admin list" does not give any output.13:34
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lcukthese 3d printers, can you print edible stuff?13:44
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lcukbkalinga, following the link does seem to offer a page to: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Tutorials/Add_a_new_target13:45
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bkalingabut nothing is specified there how to create!!13:46
bkalingaAll talks are update...13:46
bkalingawhile i try updating ...http://pastebin.com/PmWYsujJ13:47
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* timeless kicks Qt creator13:48
bkalingals: cannot access /usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/cache/madde.conf.d: No such file or directory13:49
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bkalingaany clue why this file is not there while installing Meego1.2 pre-release13:50
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lcukwould MeeGo happily run on the lowres Android devices?14:03
lcuklike the Motorola CLIQ (320*480)14:03
* lcuk notes this phone only because someone mentioned it14:03
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leinirWell, there's no reason it shouldn't... The handset ux isnt designed to handle that, but other than that...14:04
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partI guess it's more down to if you can run your own os on the device14:05
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* timeless goes back to complaining about qt creator14:07
* timeless tries to remember where the bug tracker is14:07
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lcukleinir, handset UX is only one part really14:09
lcukbut Qt is meant to be resolution independent?14:09
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w00t_Qt doesn't stop UX designers from doing stupid things14:10
lcukpart, it runs android, that being Linux based I thought you could reflash14:10
leinirit is - only the ux is a problem from what i know, as it expects 800x480 (if memory serves)14:10
w00t_leinir: that part can be changed14:10
lcukleinir, it can also be expanded and hopefully reduced too?14:10
leinirw00t_: yeah :) that would be nice ;)14:10
w00t_what can't be changed is that the software is designed around those resolutions14:10
w00t_i.e. there is too much stuff on screen14:11
lcukhm14:11
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lcukw00t_, it should just work but with lower resolution fonts14:12
partlcuk: being based on linux doesn't really mean anything14:12
lcukpart, it should. \@/14:12
w00t_fonts aren't the problem14:12
w00t_you try cram openoffice onto a 3.5" screen without any adjustment and tell me how usable it is14:13
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lcukw00t_, try that with 800*480 or even higher now14:13
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w00t_I have seen it14:13
partlcuk: manufacturers can, and mostly do lock up their hardware as tightly as they can14:13
w00t_it isn't usable14:13
lcukthat does not work anyway and not what I am talking about14:13
w00t_it's the same principle14:13
w00t_openoffice is designed for bigger screens, bigger resolutions14:14
lcukyes14:14
w00t_the software on meego handset UX is designed around having a certain amount of screen real estate available14:14
lcukand open office full version is not targeted in handset14:14
lcukw00t_, you can put the same amount of stuff on a 3.5 inch screen with high resolution as low resolution14:14
w00t_you can if it's designed in a resolution independent way, which both openoffice and meego handset apps are not14:15
w00t_which is what I've been trying to say for the past ~5 minutes :)14:15
* lcuk sighs14:17
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lcukw00t_, liqbase apps are designed for a single size (800*480 is hardcoded everywhere)14:17
lcukyet it can happily run at any resolution14:17
w00t_i'm sure they are, but liqbase is not meego handset14:17
lcukyes but I am trying to work out why it cannot do the same14:18
w00t_meaning that example is pretty useless for the purpose of this discussion (running meego handset on a lower resolution)14:18
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w00t_because designers work around pixel measurements14:18
lcukw00t_, the same discussion is needed for higher resolution too14:18
w00t_higher resolution is an easier problem14:18
w00t_you get expanded spacers, not an unusable application14:18
lcukhttp://liqbase.net/20110222_003.jpg14:19
lcukthat is current handset14:19
lcukon a 1024*600 screen14:19
w00t_that is current handset without a device configuration14:19
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w00t_fix the device configuration, then tell me what it looks like14:19
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vgrade-nexuslcuk, tablet is on joggler14:20
vgrade-nexuslcuk, sec for pictures and video14:21
vgrade-nexuslcuk, http://www.youtube.com/user/vgrade100#p/u/7/WuJbWMsY3bE14:22
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lcukw00t_, the raising resolution case is the other side and yeah I know it scales up14:23
lcukvgrade-nexus, :D I thought so14:23
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lcukthanks, how did you get it onto there though, and is there a possibility to make same sort of test on n900?14:23
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w00t_the joggler is x86 iirc14:24
lcukthe UX is QML iirc14:24
w00t_meaning the tablet image would more or less run on there - with some shoehorning14:24
w00t_all of it won't be14:24
* lcuk nods14:25
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vgrade-nexuslcuk, I just took the tablet ux image, extracted the embedded filesystems, used that with the joggler efi bits and EMGD driver, job done14:28
lcukahh phoey14:28
vgrade-nexuswoot_, what bits are x86 specific?14:29
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wazd_hi all15:00
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Stskeepshi hi15:01
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DawnFosterdon't forget that we have a special TSG meeting in 2 hours. Topic is WG nominations (lots of them): http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings#Next_TSG_meeting15:03
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Stskeepsfinally ;)15:03
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DawnFosterStskeeps: no kidding - it's great to see some movement again & lots of great companies getting involved in MeeGo15:04
StskeepsDawnFoster: i'm most intruiged by the handset WG nominations, personally15:04
iekkuthat's good news15:04
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DawnFosterStskeeps: handset is just a start15:05
Stskeepsbut i think given the new situations we -really really- need to keep TSGs going regularly, even if it means having more flexible times for them :P15:05
DawnFosterwe're getting a few done and out of the way and we'll have more in a few weeks for handset15:05
Stskeeps:nod:15:05
* Stskeeps is happy to see project going forward.15:06
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timophgreat15:08
Stskeepsoh, MIPS too15:09
Stskeepsthat's even more interesting15:09
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rdesfoI'm trying to install texworks in meego and the app manager doesn't seem to be working15:43
rdesfoare there any known issues with this?  is there a work around?15:44
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timelessthat's rather general15:45
timelesscan you define "doesn't seem to be working"?15:45
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timelessdid it go out for a coffee?15:45
iekkutimeless, ...15:45
timelesshey, my coworker went to sleep15:45
timelessthat means he "doesn't seem to be working"15:46
timelessbut i could wake him up...15:46
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iekkui think i'm going sleeping now15:46
rdesfoyou should wake your buddy up.  then maybe the meego would work15:46
timelessmeego works fine for me, i can file bugs about things in it all day long!15:47
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rdesfowhen I click apply it just says that the "software list is refreshing" but doesn't install15:47
iekkutimeless, that's nice :)15:47
* iekku likes bugs with doos description15:48
iekkudoos?15:48
iekkugood15:48
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timelessrdesfo: see, that's a much better description of your problem!15:49
gabrbeddrdesfo: Are you using the netbook UX ?15:49
rdesfoyes15:49
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timeless(do you have a working network? do you have a proxy?)15:49
rdesfoI'm able to connect to the internet15:50
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gabrbeddrdesfo: Open a terminal shell, and do this:15:50
gabrbeddrdesfo: sudo zypper refresh15:50
gabrbeddrdesfo: My guess is that the refresh is choking because it needs/wants you to verify that something is unsigned in the repo.15:51
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gabrbeddrdesfo: After that, you should be able to install the package... and it would be really cool if you would file a bug on bugs.meego.com (if one doesn't already exist)15:53
rdesfoit said everything was update to date15:53
rdesfothen I went back to the application manager and it said the application couldn't be found15:53
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gabrbeddrdesfo: Did it ever say that the application could be found?15:55
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gabrbeddoh... he's gone....15:57
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DawnFosterTSG meeting starting in 5 minutes over in #meego-meeting http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings16:55
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vgrade-nexus_Birmingham MeeGo Meeting Pics, http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/03/meego-birmingham-uk-meetup/16:57
lbtDawnFoster: http://events.linkedin.com/MeeGo-Conference-2011-SFO/pub/587561 ... just FYI ... you may want to claim the event.16:57
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lbtvgrade-nexus_: I thought that was tomorrow16:58
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vgrade-nexus_lbt, were you planning to attend?16:59
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lbtI was thinking about it16:59
* lbt is in Reading16:59
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lbtthought it was a saturday event....17:00
DawnFosterlbt: thanks17:00
vgrade-nexus_lbt, ash is planning more events. Would certainly like to see more developers at the next meet17:00
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lcuk:D vgrade-nexus_17:01
jeremiahLot to cover today17:01
* lcuk going to Manchester with a few folks on Sunday17:01
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lcukbut >>> #meego-meeting for now17:01
lbtjeremiah: hey stranger :)17:01
jeremiahHowdy!17:02
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jeremiahlbt:  You're going to get the official nod today, no?17:02
lbtnot afaik17:03
* gabrbedd nods at lbt17:03
lbtwe were supposed to propose it pre-wimper17:03
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jeremiahlbt: I thought you were still on the agenda.17:03
jeremiahHmm17:03
lbt"Tentatively scheduled for Feb 23"17:04
lbtthat's news to me17:04
lbt(good news :) )17:04
jeremiahYeah, you're in the backlog any way17:05
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jeremiahSo hopefully they'll get to that today.17:05
* Jaffa supposes questions about *who* the TSG are now and the governance of the project will fall into AOB17:05
lbt*g*17:05
* Jaffa used to work with Visteon17:06
lbtI thought they were bright LEDs....17:06
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jeremiahJaffa: You used to work with Visteon?17:07
jeremiahI didn't know that.17:07
timelesswoohoo!17:07
jeremiahVisteon is one of the biggest "Tier 1" companies17:07
timelessi now have a bugzilla product all to myself!17:07
DawnFosterlbt: let's talk later about your item in the tsg (won't be today)17:07
Jaffajeremiah: Was working at Ford when they were spun out.17:08
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lbtDawnFoster: not expecting it to be... was going to raise it at CO first17:08
jeremiahJaffa: Ah, wow.17:08
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jeremiahWhat is the question policy again?17:10
jeremiahDo we post questions here?17:10
jeremiahOr in #meego-meeting?17:10
DawnFosterjeremiah: we'll ask for questions after the presenter is finished17:10
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DawnFosterthe questions get posted in meego-meeting17:11
DawnFosterbut not until I ask for them :)17:11
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jeremiahDawnFoster: Okay, thanks!17:11
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jeremiah600 million subscribers. Not too shabby.17:12
wazd_http://s011.radikal.ru/i318/1103/fb/5759a8696054.png <- what do you think? :)17:13
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jeremiahwazd_: I think it is nice. And I think it is in Russian.17:14
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wazd_jeremiah: half in russian :) Just to check how it would look :)17:15
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* lbt is confused about nominations from Nokia17:15
jeremiahlbt: You're not alone.17:16
lbtespecially in the upcoming Smart TV section17:16
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jeremiahThe LGE nominations are great though.17:16
Jaffawazd_: CSSU using your icon now :) I've scaled your original to 48, 64 and 108 px sizes needed for the three use cases17:17
jeremiahlbt: Terminal mode in your TV?17:17
lbtyeah LGE .... :)17:17
jeremiahlbt: Good question17:17
Stskeepslbt, sami is listed on the page17:18
timelesslbt: oh, nokia nominated some tv stuff?17:18
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timelesslbt: keep in mind that nokia in theory still wants to use the people it had allocated to meego17:18
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timelessbut it to some extent has indicated that mobile phones = wp717:19
timelessif there's an easy spot to move meego people to, that's a good thing17:19
timelessoddly, nokia used to make tv's in the past fwiw17:19
lbtStskeeps: OK - should have recognised the name17:19
* Jaffa has a Nokia STB in the guest room17:20
jeremiahSo Nokia is just one member of the Handset WG now. That should ease compliance a bit. :P17:20
wazd_Jaffa: great :)17:20
JartzaI have Nokia monitors, old Nokia computers, modems etc :)17:21
JartzaNokia Mikko computers17:21
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Jartza(not even mikromikko, these are older)17:22
lbthttp://meego.com/about/governance/program-office/handset-program ?17:22
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jeremiahlbt: That looks out of date.17:23
DawnFosterthe whole governance structure needs to be updated17:23
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DawnFosterI'm hoping we can do that soon17:24
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lbtnp17:24
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* Stskeeps just hopes it gets done right, with general thoughts outlined and published and then proposal executed17:28
lbtIntel - Representative: Dominique Le Foll ?17:28
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lbtI thought he was Amino17:29
Stskeepshe moved17:29
lbtah... should pay more attention17:29
Stskeepscool @ mips17:29
lbtah dominig ... :)17:29
jeremiahYeah, very cool about MIPS17:29
lbtyes.... but whatever happened to AMD....17:29
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Stskeepsstill around i think17:30
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jeremiahdominig: good question17:30
Stskeepsthere was an interview17:30
lcukhttp://news.softpedia.com/news/AMD-Wants-More-Fusion-Tablets-Investigates-Android-and-MeeGo-190280.shtml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter17:30
lcuk(posted this morning, spotted it)17:30
lcukdoes the MIPS hardwareinclude required 3d graphics?17:31
pupnik_wow this is first time online on 3g on n900 in a loooong time17:31
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lbtlcuk: compliance needs GL iirc17:31
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Stskeepsgles17:32
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lbtpicky17:32
Stskeepsmorn arjan :)17:32
arjanmorning17:32
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lcukquestion answered: http://www.mips.com/Customer_newsletter_0908/partnerShowcase.htm17:33
arjanis it safe to be here again ? ;-)17:34
* lbt looks around for elephants...17:34
Stskeepsarjan: it should always be safe or we aren't handling things right here :)17:35
lbthere we go on the "one at a time you naughtly boys"17:35
lbtarjan: we missed you :)17:35
qgilN900lbt you should be a poet instead (or in addition to) an engineer17:35
jeremiahIts never safe.17:35
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alteregoStskeeps: so what do you mean when you say "we're missing 3D"? :)17:35
lbtqgilN900: I'm a dancer ... it's close ;)17:35
Stskeepsalterego: huh?17:35
pupnik_n900 drawing 115-130 mA in 2g with irc and low brightness17:36
* arjan tries to remember what nick carsten normally uses17:36
alteregoStskeeps: you said something like that earlier when I asked if it was worth me trying to make a hfp image today ;)17:36
Stskeepsarjan: this one17:36
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X-Fadelol :)17:37
qgilN900safety is an assumption  :)17:37
alteregoWhoops, wrong channel17:38
alteregoqgilN900: This is what I'm currently having to do irt theming in my dialer: http://pastie.org/168574117:38
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jeremiaharjan: Stskeeps17:38
lcuklbt, with the working group *expansions* it seems hopefully the discussions would be expected to be even more open?17:38
Jaffalcuk: Or lots of closed conference calls17:39
lbtyes... but Intel engineers seem to have been very quiet recently17:39
lcukeveryone has17:39
* lcuk hears pin drop in this channel some days17:39
qgilN900alterego: I see...17:40
* TSCHAKeee is just slowly porting parts of LinuxMCE to MeeGo, and only pops up to dispense with comment :P17:40
alteregoqgilN900: There are a few possibilities in regards to actually getting proper colours, once the Qt -> MeeGo Touch bridge is done, hopefully QPalette will have the proper values. Though this may not be the case.17:41
arjanlbt: the situation is a bit weird.17:41
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arjanand the press is paying very close attention as well on anything nokia related right now17:42
arjanso every half sentence on a mailing list becomes a news story17:42
lcukTSCHAKeee, it seems many folks see the same thing, but if we each hide away in caves it is no wonder teamwork does not appear to happen17:42
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qgilN900arjan you tell me  :)17:42
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lbtarjan: yep I can appreciate that ... and sympathise17:43
vgrade-nexus_TSCHAKeee, hi, got time to talk17:43
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TSCHAKeeelcuk: indeed. you're right... the issue here is that honestly, I have a huge project that i am wrangling...and I only say or ask something.17:43
TSCHAKeeevgrade-nexus_: whazzup?17:43
arjanlbt: in addition it's a bit unclear who will be working on meego outside of intel going forward17:43
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lbtarjan: tell me about it ;)17:43
* TSCHAKeee is in an engineering meeting, but a significant chunk of my brain isn't being used..so...I can haz multitask.17:43
jeremiaharjan: Looks like a lot of other companies are joining the working groups . . .17:43
lbtI still have a job with Nokia..... for now .....17:43
maligorTSCHAKeee, I know the feeling17:44
lbtDawnFoster: I have a QUESTION... let me know when I can ask ... this pause is pregnant17:45
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lbtslow typing ....17:46
DawnFosterlbt - go!17:46
DawnFoster:)17:46
qgilN900lbt and your question really is...?  :)17:47
lbtshould MeeGo core focus on delivering less stuff more reliably17:47
lbtand focus on vendors and not distros17:47
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arfolli think considering who's in the WG that question answers itself17:48
pupnik_lots of talented ppl around, but some degree of paralysis17:48
qgilN900I'm with arfoll17:48
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arjanlbt: "meego core" does not exist.17:49
arjanmeego is a distribution that needs to have a wide range of tools, not just what ends up on the device, to be viable for developers and others.17:49
lbtarjan: it has boundaries17:49
lbtand there's a scope to what can be regression tested at release17:49
arjanmeego right now is too small, maybe some 1400 packages17:49
JaffaDawnFoster: Just thought of a related question17:49
lbtand what is a release blocker17:49
arjanthat'll need to go up to maybe 2500 ish to be minimum viable17:50
JaffaActually, don't bother.17:50
lbtarjan: I'd like to find some time to discuss this with you ... maybe a BOF session at SF ?17:50
arjansure17:50
arjannow there is a set that is assumed to be on devices, and a set that is not17:50
arjanand that's clearly a split in terms of QA effort, more than fair enough.17:51
arjanbut what goes on devices also is more wide than some nokia guys think about17:51
arjannot everything is a phone ;)17:51
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lbtarjan: and I want to allow meego 'core' (should it exist) to focus more on it's real customers17:51
lbtand if one of those customers is meego 'distro' ... which provides the tools etc... that's great17:52
qgilN900personal opinion: I would be happy if MeeGo would release the best mobile stack from Kernel to Qt every 6 months like a clock, plus the corresponding platform and application developer tools, leaving the UXs entirely and explicitely to vendors and the community17:52
lbtit makes meego less introspective17:52
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lbtqgilN900: exactly17:52
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leinirqgilN900++17:53
pupnik_agrees17:53
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JaffaDitto17:53
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jeremiahI think that is a good vision, but I don't think that fits with Intel's vision17:54
jeremiahI think Intel wants UIs as part of MeeGo17:54
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lbtarjan: I very much *do not think* that meego should be phone oriented17:54
lbtjeremiah: couldn't a UI project be like a reference vendor project17:54
gabrbeddI think a common and/or reference UX is very important.17:55
jeremiahSure, but isn't that tricky? I mean, things need to be pretty polished.17:55
arjanyou cannot decouple user experience from the OS17:55
lbtwhich exercises and validates a meego-core external communication focus17:55
arjanexperience goes through the whole stack, not jsut the pretty pixels part17:55
Jaffagabrbedd: Reference UXes encourage closed thinking, cos everything is viewed as "MeeGo's tablet UI"17:56
jeremiahExactly, you need almost a separate library per vertical since the input mechanisms in each vertical are so different17:56
lbtarjan: not disagreeing ... just looking to trim the fat and provide a scalable mechanism to expand the project17:56
qgilN900arjan, the fact is that there will be different UXs in different MeeGo products17:56
gabrbeddJaffa: users are closed thinkers.  They don't get a flip about your innovative UI.  They don't want to have to learn a new UI with every device.17:56
jeremiahlbt: You could extend that argument though down to just the kernel and the BSP17:56
gabrbeddJaffa: That's why people stick with Windows.17:57
lbtjeremiah: the kernel delivers the kernel.... not even libc17:57
gabrbeddJade: ...and why people hated Vista (because something changed)17:57
jeremiahgabrbedd: I don't agree - look at the phenominal rise of Android17:57
qgilN900arjan you need a UX to test your enablers, but ultimately what counts are the real bugs found by real product and apps developers17:57
jeremiahqgilN900: Sure. But then Intel needs to create _two_ UIs; their "proprietary" UI and the MeeGo UI17:58
gabrbeddjeremiah: And all the reviews are on the UX.17:58
lbtjeremiah: they have an open (soon) MeeGo UI17:59
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X-FadeI guess the real question is if MeeGo expects vendors to ship the reference ui (like most android OEMs) or vendors create their own experience on top of MeeGo.17:59
X-FadeAnd create fragmentation because of that.17:59
jeremiahBut if you say that no one in MeeGo should focus on UI, then you can start taking out bits like Qt.18:00
qgilN900jeremiah - why? open UIs are extremely good for testing platforms and proprietary UIs should be a work left for whoever is investing in a commercial product18:00
lcukmy 2c: #MeeGo is meant to be #Smart #Fast #Simple #Intuitive #Innovative and #Different on ALL devices.18:00
jeremiahYou can start to pare the whole OS down to busybox18:00
jeremiahqgilN900: Because even today you have customers who insist on clutter18:00
jeremiahqgilN900: You have to have _all_ UI libs now18:00
qgilN900but no worries, that was just my personal opinion and what matters is what the real stakeholders think it's better for their business, seriously18:01
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jeremiahIndeed.18:01
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akssps011Hi, is there a 64 bit version of meego sdk for debian ?18:02
qgilN900need to go, thanks for the chat  :)18:02
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jeremiah-)18:03
jeremiahOr :-) even!18:03
jeremiahakssps011: Not really. What are you looking to develop? Many of the libs already exist in Debian18:03
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jeremiahakssps011: Although I suppose you could get MADDE to run on Debian.18:04
akssps011jeremiah: I am trying out KDE Marble meant for meego.18:04
lbtarjan: maybe you should hold regular IRC "The architect is in" sessions18:05
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akssps011jeremiah: is it same as the SDK simulator ? I saw that there exists one for fedora 13 64 bit but not for debian18:06
jeremiahakssps011: I'm not sure if MADDE is the same as the SDK simulator18:07
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jeremiahBack in the Maemo days it was a SDK that did fancy chroot stuff and used xepher so it was a kind of "simulator"18:08
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jeremiahI don't know if MADDE has transmogrified into the SDK simulator, though someone in this channel should know18:08
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jeremiahWhoa. KDE Marble looks really cool18:09
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akssps011:)18:11
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gabrbeddlcuk: You dropped your pin.18:39
lcukgabrbedd, ?18:39
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gabrbedd"* lcuk hears pin drop in this channel some days"18:41
lcuk:D heh18:41
* lcuk picks it up18:41
berndhsyeah but that's because lcuk works when the reasonable world is asleep :)18:41
lcukberndhs, no, I just get talkative in evening, MeeGo has a great number of people in America does it not ;)18:42
pupnik_gotta run18:43
berndhsI think IRC is thinner in America than in Europe18:43
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gabrbeddberndhs: #meego from 9PM-Midnight CDT is really, really dead.18:44
gabrbeddberndhs: It's just as well, though, it gets pretty distracting.18:44
berndhsI tried #qt-qml, its dead all day and night18:45
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gabrbeddberndhs: most folks just ask on #qt18:46
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lcuknames18:47
* lcuk hmms18:47
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* lcuk ponders heading into a cave outside work hours18:49
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lofty306cave good18:49
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arfollif do osc copypac what happens if a package was a link?18:51
lcuklofty306, indeed :) get to do lots of cave painting!18:51
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arfollthe -e option is confusing me, expanding means copying it out fully? I'd like it to link to where the original package was linking18:52
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lcuksigh http://hackaday.com/2011/03/18/junkyard-jumbotron-is-begging-to-for-an-open-source-project-clone/19:03
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lcukthat is slow19:04
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* lcuk contacts MIT19:05
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ali1234of course it is slow, it is cloud based19:28
ali1234you can't even use it with anything except photos that you send to their website19:28
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lcukali1234, since the components are designed to be in the same room, it could communicate using LAN/WiFi/adhoc19:29
lcuk;)19:29
ali1234and instead of doing something sensible like using VNC, they use a web browser to render the display19:29
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ali1234communication method is not the problem here19:29
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ali1234the problem is use of html519:30
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lcuklol19:30
lcukali1234, sending via vnc is problematic also19:31
ali1234no19:31
lcukdue to bandwidth constraints19:31
lcuksure it is19:31
pupnik_lcuk you try e-cigs yet?19:31
lcuksending a data stream to 8 other machines in realtime19:31
ali1234right. sending a whole new jpeg for every frame is going to be way better. right19:31
ali1234vnc works on a 56k modem with a 800x600 screen19:31
lcukali1234, how about just sending the coordinates required todisplay19:31
ali1234oh, you mean like vnc does?19:32
lcukonce they all have same image url it is trivial19:32
ali1234right, and what happens if you want to display something other than a static image?19:32
lcukali1234, each device needs same data19:32
lcukthe problem you describe is exactly the same as smart tvs have19:32
lcukeven TSCHAKeee has to overcome similar19:33
lcukmoving video from playing on desktop to laptop for instance19:33
ali1234who cares about video?19:33
ali1234anything less than full desktop is pointless19:33
lcukpeople who want to carry on watching video from their big tv whilst they go to the toilet19:33
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CosmoHillpeople should buy sky+19:34
ali1234right19:34
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ali1234this is what sensible people do19:34
lcukCosmoHill, the sky+ app to record on the go is nice :)19:34
CosmoHillwho wants to go from a 40" with a 5.1 surround to a small phone?19:34
ali1234however you are missing the point completely19:34
CosmoHillI probably am19:34
ali1234which is that html5 has no advantages over vnc, and just causes a bunch of problems19:34
lbtROFL .... sky+ is useless .... MythTV :)19:34
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lcuklbt it is not pointless19:35
CosmoHilllbt: I improved my sky+ box by removing the hard drive and cooling fan19:35
lcukI have now seen a bunch of friends randomly notice something on tv whilst out19:35
lcukand record them19:35
lcukit is actually novel :)19:35
lcukmass market simplicity19:35
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haltdefhave fun getting your sky card working in a pc19:35
lbtmmm ... been doing that for >5 years ....19:35
haltdefdoable but so much work :P19:35
lbthaltdef: you managed it ?19:36
* lbt goes via PVR still - works just fine19:36
haltdefno, I use a dreambox and card share19:36
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lcukmore important though:  MeeGo tv will need to do similar19:37
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lcukand you better hope there is a MeeGo app for remote controlling the MeeGo tv !19:38
lbtyeah - I'm not sure where it's going19:38
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lbttoo much time and money being wasted in DRM19:38
lcuklbt, into the home.19:38
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* lcuk sent first mail to MIT19:39
lbtchasing last centuries business model19:39
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lbtheck ... we had VHS last century.... we're at sub-VHS levels now19:39
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CosmoHilllbt: youtube?19:39
ali1234ha ha ha19:39
lcuklbt, sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forwards.19:40
lbt"you're doing it wrong"19:40
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lbtwhen the objective is "make people watch the video stream" ... then it'll work19:41
lbtthe current business plan is "how do we stop them"19:41
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lbtduh19:41
lcukYou cant stop the signal, Mal.19:41
lbtlets launch a business stopping people watching what we sell.... ROFL19:42
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Bostikthere is a name for that19:42
lcukoh, forgot attributation:  - Mr. Universe, Serenity 2005.19:42
Bostik"extortion"19:42
lbtBostik: "stupidity"19:42
lcuklbt, so, what is the alternative?19:43
* lcuk does not mind DRM per say, it gives people something to do.19:44
lbtlcuk: Wargames19:44
Bostikright, that too19:44
lbttic-tac-toe19:44
lcuklbt, that is what tictactoe is for19:44
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lbtthe only winning strategy....19:44
* lcuk plays regularly19:44
lcuk:P19:44
Bostika game of thermonuclear war?19:44
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lcukdid you know lbt, that tictactoe is great for teaching people how to write19:44
lcukbecause you have to get used to doing letter formation in a fixed size19:45
lbtBostik: they're engaging in guerilla warfare19:45
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lbtBostik: and generally yes, the winning strategy is to napalm the villages and sod the consequences....19:45
Bostikthe two don2 go well together, I think19:45
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CosmoHillI swear a moment ago we were talking about sky+ boxes and now we've moved onto mass murder, wtf?19:46
Bostik"first rule of jungle warfare: get rid of the jungle"19:46
lbtI noticed the US took further steps to make copying a video attract similar punishment to rape...19:46
lbtand they made it a felony so the corporates don't even have to waste time in civil suits19:47
Bostikfinns have long since gone past19:47
lbtso I do feel that it's not a nice place19:47
lcukok, remove drm but still allow movies to be released19:48
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lcukhow do you manage it without and to ensure that a business model can continue?19:49
ali1234you can't19:49
ali1234why is this a problem?19:49
lcukali1234, really?19:49
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lcukit *is* possible19:50
ali1234you can't "ensure that a business model can continue"19:50
lcukColdplay did it with their albums19:50
gabrbeddMusic is different from movies.19:50
lcukno it isn't.19:50
gabrbeddMusic artists have historically /never/ made any money off their albums.19:50
lcukit is data that people worked hard to create19:50
gabrbeddThe make it in live performances... concerts.19:50
lcuksame as apps19:51
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lcuksame as photographs19:51
gabrbeddSo, the record companies made the $$ of record sales, and the artists had to hit the road.19:51
ali1234poor pop stars... working so hard all the time19:51
ali1234bawwww19:51
lcukali1234, software then.19:51
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gabrbeddMovies and photography are different because the data /is/ the artist's primary revenue stream.19:51
* timoph was about to comment but decided to stay out of this discussion :)19:51
ali1234http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdsL4kvp_I19:52
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Bostikon a tangentially related note, I personally think there is something utterly broken when you need a pair of earplugs if you go to watch a movie in cinema19:53
* lcuk just thinks that random trashing of a model without even considering an alternative is a bit silly19:53
lbtlcuk: make the objective is "make people watch the video stream" ... then it'll work19:53
* ali1234 thinks requiring everything be meticulously planned and controlled is quite silly too19:53
lcuklbt - ok19:53
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lcukhow do you give the producers a pat on the back?19:54
lbtcredits19:54
lcukhow does that help?  we have credits now on paid for media19:55
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ali1234personally i think if there was less money involved in movies and music and tv then the quality would improve a lot19:55
ali1234same goes for professional sports actually19:56
ali1234and software too19:56
CosmoHillali1234: you mean if people had to work harder for the money19:56
ali1234CosmoHill: yeah pretty much19:56
lbtlcuk: what you meant was "where's the revenue stream"19:56
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ali1234it would remove the shovelware from the equation and make it easier to find the quality19:56
lcukyes19:56
lcuklbt ^19:56
lbtbut most TV programming is truly shit....19:57
* CosmoHill avoids ITV19:57
lcukeye of the beholder.19:57
Bostikwhen your largest target group has a 5-second attention span, you can't really aim for quality19:57
lbtadd the product placement.... and pay to show it19:57
ali1234you can blame the public but that isn't really the whole picture19:57
lcukfor many people, what we see as shit because we interact with our devices are a lifeline19:57
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ali1234the "5 second attention span" isn't the largest group, it is merely the cheapest to produce for. and therefore the most profitable19:58
lcuklbt, reasonable - advertising supported19:58
lbtali1234: I'm not claiming that it'll produce quality programming :)19:58
* lcuk notes the number of apps which are fully branded19:58
Bostikright, the most important one then :(19:58
ali1234increasing or descreasing the revenue stream would not change this fact19:58
CosmoHillwhen we say "crap tv", we're talking about UK standards right?19:58
* gabrbedd 's favorite TV station is "OFF"19:58
berndhsmost important group is kids that buy with their parents money19:59
lbtCosmoHill: US TV measured by UK standards... yep19:59
lbtalso... BBC19:59
lcukberndhs, imagine what happens if you find something the parents themselves like :)19:59
berndhsparents are too careful with their money19:59
CosmoHillwatching US programs that are streamed live on sports channels are weird19:59
* lcuk notes the number of elderly people who remark with joy at something as simple as handwriting.19:59
CosmoHillcos when the americans have an advert the UK don't19:59
berndhsand if kids get used to your brand, a lot of them stay loyal19:59
Bostiksome short BBC series, such as Jekyll...20:00
lbtlcuk: that's just nostalgia20:00
CosmoHillI think I counted 4 US adverts for every 1 UK advert20:00
Bostikyum20:00
lcuklbt :) it might be20:00
gabrbeddlcuk: So... liqbase is for elderly people?  :-p20:00
lcukgabrbedd, I always said it was simplified computing20:00
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CosmoHillmy grandad was on wikipedia the other day so I made the joke about him being online20:01
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lcukit is for people who do not like complex computers20:01
lcuk:)20:01
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ali1234gabrbedd: it's an emulation of a notebook, something people under 40 have probably never seen... so yeah20:01
lcukgabrbedd, my nana used the firstversion20:01
* lcuk dislikes complex computers20:01
lbtlcuk: I'm waiting for it to *do* something with a scribble20:02
ali1234ted nelson would probably have a heart attack if you showed him liqbase20:02
lbtwhen I draw a tic-tac-toe board... I want it to draw a X20:02
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lcuklbt, heh20:02
lbtyou have the weekend20:02
lcukI am writing prototype mywatch this weekend20:03
lbtsometimes I want it to draw a tic-tac-toe board and say "shall we play"20:03
lcukI showed some mates the idea last night :)20:03
CosmoHillmy lecturer said that computer minded people are actually more paitent with computers cos they understand the workload20:03
lcuklbt that would be a multi stroke gesture20:03
CosmoHillthis backfires when you run a simple task and it takes a long itme20:03
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* gabrbedd really likes liqbase....20:04
lbtCosmoHill: leading to error messages like "Sheesh... hang on will you"20:04
CosmoHill"well I don't see you doing any work"20:04
CosmoHill"I'm multitasking, why don't you?"20:04
CosmoHillspeaking of multiasking, it takes 9 hours for my 16 core cluster to compute all goldbach conjecture numbers under 500,00020:06
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lcukCosmoHill, but can it put a fruit pastel in its drive bay without chewing it?20:09
GAN900CosmoHill, yes, except when it's slow for no good reason. ;)20:09
CosmoHilllcuk: well it can put a DVD in it's drive without reading it so probably yes20:09
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lcuknot surprisingly, the n900 meego appears to run "make -j 1" faster than "make -j 2"20:10
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* lcuk compares directly with n900 maemo20:15
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* CosmoHill is mildly amazed that he just played a flash video full screen20:16
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chandooguyz i cam in here thinking about sip21:00
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chandoolooks like the link you posted in topic is not working, some kinda space in the link with some | in it21:01
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chandooyour admin might know this thanks21:01
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CosmoHillI'm really confused21:02
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andre__who isn't...21:02
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CosmoHilloh I see21:03
CosmoHillmy client won't open the first two links in the IRC topic21:03
CosmoHill"http://meego.com" becomes "http://meego.com |"21:03
berndhsCosmoHill: that's your IRC client being confused, not the link21:04
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lcukWho keeps spreading the meme that MeeGo file systems are slower tham Maemo?21:29
lcukbecause from what I can gather, MeeGo filesystem is quite substantially faster than same machine running Maemo (at least for the tests I just ran)21:30
lcukMeeGo:21:30
lcukmake[1]: Leaving directory `/home/meego/svn_tab/libliqbase/src'21:30
lcukreal2m43.337s21:30
lcukMaemo:21:30
lcukmake[1]: Leaving directory `/home/user/svn_tab/libliqbase/src'21:30
lcukreal4m 28.92s21:30
lcukthat is MeeGo running on a 4gb class 2 card.21:30
lcukand with the slower cpu21:31
lcukmore indepth notes and things: http://pastebin.com/RTP1bUDT21:31
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ali1234it's a fact that sd/mcc is significantly slower than nand regardless of what filesystem you use21:32
lcukali1234, I tried the Maemo results on different parts of the filesystem21:33
lcukto try and determine that21:33
lcukI ran it on21:33
lcuk:   /root21:33
lcuk:   /home21:33
lcuk:   //home/user21:33
lcuk:   /home/user/MyDocs21:33
lcukwith negligable difference21:34
ali1234try it on /21:34
ali1234everything under /home is on mmc21:34
ali1234not sure about /root21:34
lcuk /root is on the rootfs21:34
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lcukbut hold on then :)21:34
lcukjust for completeness21:34
ali1234also be sure to test read and write independently21:34
lcukit was real world test21:34
andre__hmm. MeeGo wasn't accepted for Summer of Code 2011. pity.21:35
ali1234real world = "how long does it take to load programs?"21:35
lcukand MeeGo filesystem appeared to make it much faster21:35
ali1234this is a pure read operation21:35
lcuk?21:35
lcuk"time make"21:35
lcukwas the command21:35
lcukcompiling a library21:35
ali1234make involves copious amounts of writing21:35
lcuklots of read and write21:35
ali1234not no mention high cpu use21:35
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lcukyes, another thing I was expecting MeeGo to do poorly at21:36
lcuksince the cpu has a max of 500mhz21:36
lcukvs Maemo having a max of 60021:36
ali1234why would meego be poor at compiling? it runs the cpu at full speed all the time :)21:36
jonnorandre__: not too suprising, considering the quality of the ideas posted21:36
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jonnorquality+quantity21:37
jonnorthere was definetely some good ones there as well :)21:37
andre__jonnor, yeah, I had the same expectation21:37
ali1234when you have a job like compiling that jumps around all over the place doing different things, you will often see the cpu scaling jump around all over the place21:37
lcukali1234, I expected the combination of meegoisms to make the operation slower21:37
andre__jonnor: we missed created a critical mass of good proposals21:37
lcukbut it was faster hence my surprise :)21:37
ali1234this leads to innefficient use of CPU21:37
ali1234also cpu scaling under maemo is about saving power, not getting the job done21:38
jonnorandre__: yeah21:38
andre__jonnor: plus I didn't have enough time to pimp up the wikipages :-/21:38
andre__well, at least I have a bit more of free time then :-P21:39
lcukali1234, am running it in performance mode just to confirm21:40
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ali1234make sure that disk cache is configured the same way on each too21:40
ali1234and that the background processes are behaving the same way21:40
ali1234otherwise you can't just say "meego is faster because of the file system"21:40
lcukhead brick wall21:41
ali1234in fact you can't say anything at all about the relative speed of a single part of the system in isolation21:41
lcukthis is just showing something21:41
lcuk"take maemo, do this this this and this"  and it takes X21:41
lcuk"take meego, do this this this and this"  and it takes Y21:41
lcukY is much lower than X21:42
ali1234that's funny, because it sounded like you were using this as evidence that meego's filesystem is faster than maemo's21:42
lcukfor the same operations I tested21:42
ali1234i got this impression when you said "from what I can gather, MeeGo filesystem is quite substantially faster than same machine running Maemo (at least for the tests I just ran)"21:42
lcukwell, it does.  I was frustrated hearing people say that it was slower.21:43
lcukand surprised myself at it not being :)21:43
ali1234your tests are completely inconclusive on this issue, as i just explained21:43
ali1234tbh i have no idea if btrfs is faster or slower or what21:44
ali1234all i know is that running with / on sd has quite a big impact on read speeds21:45
ali1234which is what determines things like "how fast does it boot" and "how quickly do programs load"21:45
lcukali1234, this is like getting in 2 new cars out of the showroom cars and driving round a track - at the moment MeeGo out of the box did almost 2x better21:45
ali1234but has little impact on operations like "compiling a library"21:45
lcukif you want to take Maemo into a garage and tweak scientifically, be my guest21:46
ali1234hell no21:46
lcukI am actually pleased that we have MeeGo at the point where this sort of like for like comparisons are possible!21:46
lcukbtw, maemo in performance mode barely touches the timing21:47
ali1234what you are doing is like getting 2 brand new sports cars and comparing their relative ability to pull heavy machinery21:47
ali1234and then concluding from the results that one is better than the other because of the colour of the paint21:47
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lcukali1234, show me proper benchmarks then21:48
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ali1234well i would start with hdparm on the block device to get a baseline of the read/write speed21:49
lcukcool21:49
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lcukI am actually done compiling what I needed to anyway, it was just curiosity that I timed them21:49
lcukping me when you get some benchies yourself \o21:49
ali1234heh21:50
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ali1234i'm happy to live in ignorance21:50
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ali1234if you are too that's fine by me21:50
lcukali1234, why is it ignorance?21:51
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alteregoHah, I just found my music collection :D21:51
ali1234because your "results" are meaningless because you didn't follow the scientific method21:51
alterego20G worth of CDs most of which I lost went I moved.21:51
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ali1234therefore we learned nothing from your tests21:51
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ali1234therefore we are just as ignorant as we were before :)21:52
lcukali1234, I installed the required bits to make a compiler work21:52
lcukand ran make21:52
lcukthat is as scientific as needbe on any linux system21:52
ali1234we know meego compiles things faster, we don't know why though21:52
* lcuk happy with "magic"21:53
ali1234good :)21:53
* lcuk gives mad props to N900 adaption team ;)21:53
ali1234then we are in agreement :)21:53
lcukwhen you have a real result as I say, ping me21:54
ali1234don't hold your breath :)21:55
lcukthere are 483 others who might want to know the real reason too and hopefully me digging might encourage one of them ;)21:55
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TSCHAKeeeany intel guys in here? Is it possible to run X on the CE41x0?22:53
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sjokkisWhat's the IRC nick of Jayabharath Goluguri?23:22
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CosmoHillsjokkis: look on the who's who wiki page23:27
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sjokkisCosmoHill: it was just his first name, actually23:28
sjokkisbut thanks23:28
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thiago_homedid we get to GSoC?23:47
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gabrbeddthiago_home: ML post says no, meego didn't make it.23:53
thiago_homemelhortoo bad23:54
thiago_homeoops23:55
thiago_hometoo bad23:55
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berndhsit's a conspiracy no doubt23:57
* gabrbedd wasn't going to go there23:58

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