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| gabrbedd | lbt: Looks like they got your flowers. :-) | 00:01 |
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| lbt | gabrbedd: what makes you say that? | 00:03 |
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| gabrbedd | lbt: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2011-March/003798.html | 00:04 |
| lbt | hehe | 00:04 |
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| krzysiek_ | I've question about new local meego network - I'hv problem with name | 00:10 |
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| naknomik | If I use a netbook image on an exopc tablet, everything works fine including touch, but my touch app written in Qt doesn't respond to touch input. The same works just fine on Lenovo S10-3t with same netbook image. | 00:11 |
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| krzysiek_ | meego wiki suggest MeeGo CC but Country Code is to general in my case | 00:12 |
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| barroca | seeya | 00:12 |
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| krzysiek_ | Can I use MeeGo CIt Name? | 00:12 |
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| gabrbedd | naknomik: What touchscreen does it have? (sudo lsusb -v | more) | 00:13 |
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| * w00t_ cheers | 00:18 | |
| w00t_ | it builds :) | 00:18 |
| w00t_ | now I just need to make it work... :) | 00:19 |
| gabrbedd | naknomik: I'm about to leave... FYI. :-) | 00:19 |
| naknomik | gabrbedd: touch is working only my qt app won't | 00:19 |
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| gabrbedd | naknomik: What touchscreen does it have? You can find out by looking through the output of this command: sudo lsusb -v | 00:20 |
| gabrbedd | naknomik: It's possible that it needs to be hooked into the xorg mtev driver through xorg.conf | 00:20 |
| w00t_ | mnementh: kaitlin__: if you're curious as to what I'm thinking, take a look at http://w00t.dereferenced.net/p/t/pastebin20110317-29669-ru23nk-0.txt | 00:20 |
| w00t_ | warning: yes, it is big... :) | 00:20 |
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| w00t_ | it is a lot more conceptually safe, though (no more storing pointers to QContact, which isn't a very good idea), less leaks and bad behaviour in some cases.. and fully asynchronous :) | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | it also doesn't have the Me card stuff in there yet | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | also, doesn't actually work - yet :) | 00:21 |
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| mnementh | w00t_: i especially like the it doesn't actually work yet. ;) | 00:27 |
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| w00t_ | mnementh: it builds - ship it! | 00:27 |
| * w00t_ starts poking around at contact saving to figure out what he's doing wrong | 00:27 | |
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| mnementh | w00t_: i like what i see so far. I've been wanting to cleanup libseaside forever. thanks for your help as i didn't have bandwidth. :) and i never liked the pointers. | 00:30 |
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| mnementh | w00t_: woot! <- how's that for redundant ;) | 00:31 |
| w00t_ | hehe :) | 00:31 |
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| w00t_ | ah, d'oh, not setting the manager on the requests | 00:35 |
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| w00t_ | \o/ | 00:35 |
| w00t_ | contact saved and loaded | 00:35 |
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| w00t_ | note to self... when trying to save contacts, it helps to be using a persistent QContactManager :) | 00:46 |
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| berndhs | w00t_: ah, just get to know new people, saving contacts is overrated | 00:47 |
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| w00t_ | haha | 00:47 |
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| lbt | quimgil: http://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/whats-point-community-obs | 00:50 |
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| w00t_ | and there we go, add, edit, and remove contacts all seem to work | 00:50 |
| w00t_ | ... he says, shortly before editing a contact fails miserably | 00:51 |
| berndhs | TSG meet tomorrow, the flowers worked | 00:52 |
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| quimgil | lbt: thanks so much! | 00:58 |
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| kaitlin__ | w00t_: I haven't applied your patch yet, but it looks like it'll make things so much cleaner. | 01:00 |
| w00t_ | kaitlin__: it's not ready for applying yet, still need to stomp on bugs and do some tidyup | 01:00 |
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| w00t_ | that was just a fyi sort of thing :) | 01:00 |
| lbt | quimgil: H bit OK? | 01:01 |
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| quimgil | lbt: in line with whatever discussions there has been in meego-community and CO meetings | 01:02 |
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| quimgil | berndhs: a very interesting TSG meeting, indeed | 01:02 |
| lbt | OK | 01:02 |
| lbt | berndhs: I did wonder if they'd get there today... would be nice to think so ;) | 01:03 |
| quimgil | lbt: now go to sleep only to find out next morning in Engadget that 'a new "fremantle" device3 is in the plans' etc etc ;) | 01:03 |
| lbt | *g* | 01:04 |
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| lilianzia | lilianz: hi | 01:08 |
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| naknomik | lilianz: hi | 01:09 |
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| pixelgeek1 | Hi naknomik | 01:09 |
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| rdesfo | hello | 01:12 |
| rdesfo | is there a way to install yum? | 01:12 |
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| CosmoHill | MeeGo uses Zypper | 01:13 |
| rdesfo | I get an error when I try to add it in the app manager | 01:13 |
| rdesfo | oh | 01:13 |
| CosmoHill | have you read the FAQ? | 01:13 |
| rdesfo | I guess I need to | 01:13 |
| CosmoHill | in that case I'll go and update it | 01:13 |
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| CosmoHill | sooner or later I'll stop being surprised when I log first attempt | 01:14 |
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| * CosmoHill wonders why one 2GB memory card is bigger than the other 2GB memory card | 01:47 | |
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| lbt | http://securosis.com/blog/rsa-breached-secureid-affected | 02:09 |
| CosmoHill | lbt: if I read that I won't feel guilty about skipping today's lecture | 02:10 |
| lbt | too late it's past midnight | 02:11 |
| * lbt -> bed ..... o/ | 02:11 | |
| CosmoHill | night | 02:11 |
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| CosmoHill | cyas | 02:32 |
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| lcuk | gnite CosmoHill | 02:33 |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, what is on your agenda for tomorrow? | 02:33 |
| lcuk | bah :P | 02:33 |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: The same as always. | 02:37 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: To try and take over the WORLD. | 02:37 |
| berndhs | gabrbedd: so what's the plan for the afternoon ? | 02:37 |
| lcuk | that is why he fails | 02:37 |
| lcuk | you do not try, you achieve. | 02:38 |
| berndhs | take over world, have lunch, then what ? | 02:38 |
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| gabrbedd | berndhs: Then there's a TSC meeting. | 02:41 |
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| berndhs | yes, forgot about that part | 02:41 |
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| gabrbedd | :-) | 02:42 |
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| lcuk | # | 02:44 |
| lcuk | # | 02:44 |
| lcuk | 02:44 | |
| lcuk | If we did all the things we are capable of, we would literally astound ourselves. ~ Thomas Edison | 02:44 |
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| iekku | good morning | 07:36 |
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| pumpit | hi guys morning | 07:49 |
| Stskeeps | goodmorning | 07:49 |
| pumpit | i am a new guy to meego can anyone tell the installation process of meego | 07:50 |
| Stskeeps | which vertical? handset, netbook, etc? | 07:50 |
| pumpit | handset Stskeeps | 07:50 |
| Stskeeps | that really varies then - most people just write the system to SD card | 07:50 |
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| pumpit | i am a web developer though meego is a new os and i want to develop mobile applications using meego | 07:52 |
| Stskeeps | then you may need the handset-ia32-mtf images | 07:52 |
| Stskeeps | right, then i would advise you to look at Qt SDK and QML then | 07:52 |
| pumpit | ok | 07:53 |
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| pumpit | Stskeeps there is no simulator devices in the sdl like in android | 07:59 |
| pumpit | sdk* | 07:59 |
| Stskeeps | there is | 07:59 |
| pumpit | ok | 08:00 |
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| Evanescence | 怎么取消ubuntu里的F1 键绑定的 HELP文档，和vim的F1 冲突 | 08:06 |
| Evanescence | sorry , wrong | 08:06 |
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| slonopotamus | Evanescence: charset troubles? | 08:06 |
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| Evanescence | slonopotamus: no, Em,, wrong channel , so wrong input | 08:15 |
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| bkalinga | from where i can download "meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux i686.tar.gz " | 08:31 |
| bkalinga | it is required for my meego target update | 08:31 |
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| Jartza | argh | 08:42 |
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| Jartza | I'm just getting segmentation faults with qemu when trying to run meego-handset-ia32 images | 08:42 |
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| Jartza | mad remote -r meego-handset-ia32-qemu-1.1.2-runtime poweron | 08:49 |
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| Jartza | shows the emulator window, starts loading stuff and then qemugl segfaults :( | 08:50 |
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| bkalinga | Any idea.. from where can i get meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux_i686.tar.gz | 08:54 |
| bkalinga | not able to find on repo | 08:55 |
| bkalinga | can some one point to its exact location | 08:55 |
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| timeless_w7ip | bkalinga: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux_i686.tar.gz+-meego.gitorious.org | 09:03 |
| timeless_w7ip | http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.meego.sdk/1038 | 09:03 |
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| bkalinga | timeless_w7ip: http://download3.meego.com/meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-w32_i686.tar.gz gives error code | 09:05 |
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| bkalinga | so thought it was removed from there | 09:05 |
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| timeless_w7ip | bkalinga: did you consider reading the mailing list? | 09:06 |
| timeless_w7ip | really.... reading is a requirement | 09:06 |
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| bkalinga | you mean archives? | 09:06 |
| timeless_w7ip | i mean the one thread i cited just for you | 09:06 |
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| timeless_w7ip | which you would have found had you searched for the file you can't find... | 09:07 |
| timeless_w7ip | as in the lmgtfy.com link above | 09:07 |
| bkalinga | sorry i did not open the second link..i thought of the link u posted for some one else in some other context :) | 09:08 |
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| vgrade | spot the Meego device from the Birmingham meetup, http://twitpic.com/4afoh2 | 09:14 |
| vgrade | can you get them all? | 09:15 |
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| timeless_w7ip | vgrade: i hope the mbp is running meego ;-) | 09:17 |
| timeless_w7ip | i can't recognize the laptop that's sitting behind the ideapad at the very top right corner, but i hope it too is running meego ;-) | 09:17 |
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| vgrade | laptops not included :) | 09:18 |
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| vgrade | N900, O2 Joggler, Advent Vega, WeTab, ExoPc | 09:21 |
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| bkalinga | http://pastebin.com/ireh0PMP | 09:23 |
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| bkalinga | Can not find '/usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/cache/meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux_i686.tar.gz' -- no such file. | 09:23 |
| bkalinga | still i am not able to locate this file in http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/ | 09:23 |
| lofty306 | oh geez... didnt see the n900 at first vgrade the pegatron is massive | 09:24 |
| timeless_w7ip | did you *read* the thread?? | 09:24 |
| timeless_w7ip | lofty306: rule of thumb, look for things that glow :) | 09:25 |
| timeless_w7ip | thus my first query about the mbp :) | 09:25 |
| lofty306 | i thought it was a buisness card rack | 09:25 |
| timeless_w7ip | (the apple logo is supposed to glow) | 09:25 |
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| lofty306 | prab haas tooo many pints | 09:26 |
| lofty306 | ok i gotta wakeup | 09:27 |
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| bkalinga | timeless_w7ip:Search for "sysroot" and update to latest available sysroot: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.1.90.3.20110215.10/handset/images/meego-handset-ia32-madde-sysroot/meego-handset-ia32-madde-sysroot-1.1.90.3.20110215.10-fs.tar.gz | 09:30 |
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| bkalinga | you want me to do this step | 09:30 |
| * timeless_w7ip shrugs | 09:30 | |
| timeless_w7ip | someone wants me to go to work and attend a meeting | 09:30 |
| bkalinga | ok | 09:30 |
| timeless_w7ip | i have no specific wants for you beyond "google first, ask questions later [after reading results]" | 09:31 |
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| * lofty306 throws the sdk update target script at bkalinga and a new sysroot | 09:31 | |
| bkalinga | sure.. but all ready tried that this set-up is really cumbersome :) | 09:32 |
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| lofty306 | the reading google results part? | 09:32 |
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| bkalinga | ...cache/madde.conf.d/meego-core-ia32-trunk.conf contains "file meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-w32_i686.tar.gz | 09:39 |
| bkalinga | url http://download3.meego.com/meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-w32_i686.tar.gz" | 09:39 |
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| bkalinga | i am not getting what shall the replace that url with as i don't see that file in repo.meego.com | 09:40 |
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| Myrtti | bkalinga: so you ran the script? | 09:42 |
| bkalinga | yes | 09:42 |
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| bkalinga | http://pastebin.com/tPwH2ZK9 | 09:42 |
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| bkalinga | Myrtti: ls usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/cache/madde.conf.d : http://pastebin.com/hjdxyumc | 09:45 |
| bkalinga | do you see any file i need to change for its sysroot as suggested by timeless_w7ip: | 09:45 |
| Myrtti | did I appear as I'd know anything about the subject? sorry, I don't. | 09:46 |
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| bkalinga | ok...you asked whether i ran the script...so thought you will be knowing...no problem thanks | 09:47 |
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| timeless_office | lcuk; so ... how well do you know obs? | 10:06 |
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| timeless_office | i'm wondering how much control we'd have over obs | 10:06 |
| timeless_office | because... if i could alter obs such that during the prep stage, any of a set of commands triggered a magic trigger first before doing what it wanted | 10:06 |
| timeless_office | i could probably change obs such that it automatically created dvcs revisions for packages as it went | 10:07 |
| timeless_office | something like: | 10:07 |
| timeless_office | grab rpm, source, extract, calculate dvcs repo, clone repo (no update), prepare-for-prep-by-tainting-env, %prep | 10:08 |
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| timeless_office | if a taintained command happens trigger dvcs-magic-commit + untaint env + trigger actual command | 10:08 |
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| timeless_office | after prep, dvcs-magic-commit (if not triggered before) + untaint env | 10:09 |
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| timeless_office | if the build succeeds, push dvcs changeset | 10:09 |
| timeless_office | dvcs magic commit which set the working directory parent to the 'best match' based on the version from the spec file without doing an actual checkout | 10:10 |
| timeless_office | and then commit with a commit message based on the package version | 10:10 |
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| timeless_office | done this way, we'd get patched sources and could watch deltas | 10:10 |
| timeless_office | we could even do one better by having the system do an initial import if it can't find the right dvcs repo | 10:11 |
| timeless_office | so we'd get pristine-commit, patched-1, patched-2, ... | 10:11 |
| timeless_office | it wouldn't properly recognize when the baseline changes, but i think it'd mostly work | 10:11 |
| timeless_office | and we could for meego do even better in that iiuc, the base version of a package is supposed to change when you pull a new upstream | 10:12 |
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| timeless_office | so it could do a pristine-commit-1 over pristine-commit when it detects that case before triggering the %prep stuff | 10:12 |
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| timeless_office | ok, so... now i kinda want someone who actually knows something about obs ;) | 10:13 |
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| timeless_office | aww, we don't use lvm | 10:20 |
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| thiago_home | not much need on devices where you can't add disks | 10:20 |
| thiago_home | besides, btrfs does many of the things we used to need lvm for | 10:21 |
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| timeless_office | thiago: well, if i want to file bugs about it, it's hard if i you guys don't host it :) | 11:02 |
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| bkalinga | 23: Can't open /usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/madlib/madlib.sh error coming if i remove meego1.1 and try installing meego1.2 Test release | 11:13 |
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| thiago | timeless_office: sorry, what? | 11:16 |
| timeless_office | thiago; i'm filing bugs about random crappy code | 11:17 |
| timeless_office | i can't file bugs to bugs.meego.com about random crappy code in module X if meego doesn't use randy crappy module X :) | 11:17 |
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| bkalinga | Can't open /usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/madlib/madlib.sh error while trying to install meego1.2 Test release | 11:41 |
| bkalinga | anyone faced this problem | 11:41 |
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| lcuk | what time today do submissions to the MeeGo CFP for San Fran Conf have to be in by? | 11:57 |
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| lbt | lcuk: thiago's bedtime | 12:01 |
| lcuk | lbt haha - so if people want longer they should also mail cups of coffee to him | 12:02 |
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| lbt | "Submissions will be due by 11:59 PM Pacific Time on March 18, 2011" | 12:02 |
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| tackat_ | lbt: that's in about 24 h, right? :) | 12:04 |
| lbt | ~22h I think | 12:04 |
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| lbt | thiago: ping | 12:05 |
| thiago | lbt: pong | 12:06 |
| thiago | we've agreed to postpone the deadline, but we haven't announced it yet | 12:07 |
| lbt | OK | 12:07 |
| iekku | lcuk, I sent mine today | 12:07 |
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| lbt | I'd suggest doing that ASAP since people who think the DL is tonight may need the boost | 12:07 |
| lcuk | iekku, :D awesome, what was it about?(link would be good!) | 12:08 |
| lbt | thiago: the question was about "If you will need travel support, note this in your submission, also" | 12:08 |
| iekku | http://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/bug%E2%80%99s-life-presentation-bug%E2%80%99s-life-cycle | 12:08 |
| lbt | I did a quick keyword search for travel and saw nothing | 12:08 |
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| lcuk | iekku, :D please tell me you and andre will have fly swatters on stage :D | 12:08 |
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| Stskeeps | no, better, dressed up in bug customes | 12:09 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:09 |
| thiago | lbt: you need travel support? | 12:09 |
| Stskeeps | costumes | 12:09 |
| lbt | thiago: sadly | 12:09 |
| lcuk | lol | 12:09 |
| iekku | Stskeeps, I look like a bug, said my boss... | 12:09 |
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| lbt | thiago: Nokia probably won't be sending me this time - and nor will Nomovok | 12:09 |
| andre__ | I just look wasted, as usual. | 12:09 |
| lbt | I asked | 12:09 |
| iekku | andre__, so we are nice couple | 12:10 |
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| andre__ | :-D | 12:10 |
| iekku | andre__, a punk and a wasted guy | 12:10 |
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| iekku | sorry, wasted looking guy | 12:11 |
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| lbt | so thiago do I just put a footer into the abstract (which looks a bit odd) | 12:13 |
| thiago | lbt: you can ask for that. Just write it at the bottom of your abstract. | 12:13 |
| andre__ | iekku: hehe | 12:13 |
| Stskeeps | and please file a bug regarding that to the confernece website component | 12:13 |
| w00t_ | lbt: registration asks if you're planning on being a speaker | 12:15 |
| w00t_ | perhaps that's related | 12:15 |
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| lbt | no, it asks if you *are* a speaker | 12:15 |
| lbt | which you have to go in and edit after your session is approved | 12:16 |
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| lbt | which is kinda clumsy ... but hard to avoid | 12:17 |
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| lcuk | http://news.softpedia.com/news/AMD-Wants-More-Fusion-Tablets-Investigates-Android-and-MeeGo-190280.shtml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter | 13:02 |
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| alterego | neat | 13:02 |
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| lcuk | has anyone actually tried getting the tablet UX built onto a handset? | 13:16 |
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| alterego | lcuk: it's not released yet :( | 13:19 |
| alterego | Everyone wants to :) | 13:19 |
| alterego | I wonder what they're using for look&feel | 13:19 |
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| bkalinga | my sudo mad-admin list does not show any entry [for 1.2 prerelese Meego SDK] | 13:28 |
| bkalinga | Targets: | 13:28 |
| bkalinga | Runtimes: | 13:28 |
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| lcuk | alterego, haven't I seen tablet UX on the joggler already? | 13:28 |
| lcuk | vgrade ping | 13:28 |
| bkalinga | what i need to do ??I followed http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.2-preview-under-progress | 13:28 |
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| lcuk | bkalinga, I do not go through these steps too often, but have you gone through the: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.2-preview-under-progress#Add_MeeGo_SDK_1.1.80_and_later_targets | 13:29 |
| bkalinga | yes same link i followed | 13:30 |
| bkalinga | that talks about update of target | 13:30 |
| bkalinga | but how to create if its not there | 13:31 |
| bkalinga | i dont have madde.conf.d / | 13:31 |
| bkalinga | while installing Meego1.1 sudo mad-admin list | 13:34 |
| bkalinga | gave some target and run-times so created the target with sudo mad-admin create -f <target> | 13:34 |
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| bkalinga | but while installing Meego1.2 pre-release "sudo mad-admin list" does not give any output. | 13:34 |
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| lcuk | these 3d printers, can you print edible stuff? | 13:44 |
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| lcuk | bkalinga, following the link does seem to offer a page to: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Tutorials/Add_a_new_target | 13:45 |
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| bkalinga | but nothing is specified there how to create!! | 13:46 |
| bkalinga | All talks are update... | 13:46 |
| bkalinga | while i try updating ...http://pastebin.com/PmWYsujJ | 13:47 |
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| * timeless kicks Qt creator | 13:48 | |
| bkalinga | ls: cannot access /usr/lib/madde/linux-i686/cache/madde.conf.d: No such file or directory | 13:49 |
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| bkalinga | any clue why this file is not there while installing Meego1.2 pre-release | 13:50 |
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| lcuk | would MeeGo happily run on the lowres Android devices? | 14:03 |
| lcuk | like the Motorola CLIQ (320*480) | 14:03 |
| * lcuk notes this phone only because someone mentioned it | 14:03 | |
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| leinir | Well, there's no reason it shouldn't... The handset ux isnt designed to handle that, but other than that... | 14:04 |
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| part | I guess it's more down to if you can run your own os on the device | 14:05 |
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| * timeless goes back to complaining about qt creator | 14:07 | |
| * timeless tries to remember where the bug tracker is | 14:07 | |
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| lcuk | leinir, handset UX is only one part really | 14:09 |
| lcuk | but Qt is meant to be resolution independent? | 14:09 |
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| w00t_ | Qt doesn't stop UX designers from doing stupid things | 14:10 |
| lcuk | part, it runs android, that being Linux based I thought you could reflash | 14:10 |
| leinir | it is - only the ux is a problem from what i know, as it expects 800x480 (if memory serves) | 14:10 |
| w00t_ | leinir: that part can be changed | 14:10 |
| lcuk | leinir, it can also be expanded and hopefully reduced too? | 14:10 |
| leinir | w00t_: yeah :) that would be nice ;) | 14:10 |
| w00t_ | what can't be changed is that the software is designed around those resolutions | 14:10 |
| w00t_ | i.e. there is too much stuff on screen | 14:11 |
| lcuk | hm | 14:11 |
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| lcuk | w00t_, it should just work but with lower resolution fonts | 14:12 |
| part | lcuk: being based on linux doesn't really mean anything | 14:12 |
| lcuk | part, it should. \@/ | 14:12 |
| w00t_ | fonts aren't the problem | 14:12 |
| w00t_ | you try cram openoffice onto a 3.5" screen without any adjustment and tell me how usable it is | 14:13 |
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| lcuk | w00t_, try that with 800*480 or even higher now | 14:13 |
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| w00t_ | I have seen it | 14:13 |
| part | lcuk: manufacturers can, and mostly do lock up their hardware as tightly as they can | 14:13 |
| w00t_ | it isn't usable | 14:13 |
| lcuk | that does not work anyway and not what I am talking about | 14:13 |
| w00t_ | it's the same principle | 14:13 |
| w00t_ | openoffice is designed for bigger screens, bigger resolutions | 14:14 |
| lcuk | yes | 14:14 |
| w00t_ | the software on meego handset UX is designed around having a certain amount of screen real estate available | 14:14 |
| lcuk | and open office full version is not targeted in handset | 14:14 |
| lcuk | w00t_, you can put the same amount of stuff on a 3.5 inch screen with high resolution as low resolution | 14:14 |
| w00t_ | you can if it's designed in a resolution independent way, which both openoffice and meego handset apps are not | 14:15 |
| w00t_ | which is what I've been trying to say for the past ~5 minutes :) | 14:15 |
| * lcuk sighs | 14:17 | |
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| lcuk | w00t_, liqbase apps are designed for a single size (800*480 is hardcoded everywhere) | 14:17 |
| lcuk | yet it can happily run at any resolution | 14:17 |
| w00t_ | i'm sure they are, but liqbase is not meego handset | 14:17 |
| lcuk | yes but I am trying to work out why it cannot do the same | 14:18 |
| w00t_ | meaning that example is pretty useless for the purpose of this discussion (running meego handset on a lower resolution) | 14:18 |
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| w00t_ | because designers work around pixel measurements | 14:18 |
| lcuk | w00t_, the same discussion is needed for higher resolution too | 14:18 |
| w00t_ | higher resolution is an easier problem | 14:18 |
| w00t_ | you get expanded spacers, not an unusable application | 14:18 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/20110222_003.jpg | 14:19 |
| lcuk | that is current handset | 14:19 |
| lcuk | on a 1024*600 screen | 14:19 |
| w00t_ | that is current handset without a device configuration | 14:19 |
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| w00t_ | fix the device configuration, then tell me what it looks like | 14:19 |
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| vgrade-nexus | lcuk, tablet is on joggler | 14:20 |
| vgrade-nexus | lcuk, sec for pictures and video | 14:21 |
| vgrade-nexus | lcuk, http://www.youtube.com/user/vgrade100#p/u/7/WuJbWMsY3bE | 14:22 |
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| lcuk | w00t_, the raising resolution case is the other side and yeah I know it scales up | 14:23 |
| lcuk | vgrade-nexus, :D I thought so | 14:23 |
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| lcuk | thanks, how did you get it onto there though, and is there a possibility to make same sort of test on n900? | 14:23 |
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| w00t_ | the joggler is x86 iirc | 14:24 |
| lcuk | the UX is QML iirc | 14:24 |
| w00t_ | meaning the tablet image would more or less run on there - with some shoehorning | 14:24 |
| w00t_ | all of it won't be | 14:24 |
| * lcuk nods | 14:25 | |
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| vgrade-nexus | lcuk, I just took the tablet ux image, extracted the embedded filesystems, used that with the joggler efi bits and EMGD driver, job done | 14:28 |
| lcuk | ahh phoey | 14:28 |
| vgrade-nexus | woot_, what bits are x86 specific? | 14:29 |
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| wazd_ | hi all | 15:00 |
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| Stskeeps | hi hi | 15:01 |
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| DawnFoster | don't forget that we have a special TSG meeting in 2 hours. Topic is WG nominations (lots of them): http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings#Next_TSG_meeting | 15:03 |
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| Stskeeps | finally ;) | 15:03 |
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| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: no kidding - it's great to see some movement again & lots of great companies getting involved in MeeGo | 15:04 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: i'm most intruiged by the handset WG nominations, personally | 15:04 |
| iekku | that's good news | 15:04 |
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| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: handset is just a start | 15:05 |
| Stskeeps | but i think given the new situations we -really really- need to keep TSGs going regularly, even if it means having more flexible times for them :P | 15:05 |
| DawnFoster | we're getting a few done and out of the way and we'll have more in a few weeks for handset | 15:05 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 15:05 |
| * Stskeeps is happy to see project going forward. | 15:06 | |
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| timoph | great | 15:08 |
| Stskeeps | oh, MIPS too | 15:09 |
| Stskeeps | that's even more interesting | 15:09 |
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| rdesfo | I'm trying to install texworks in meego and the app manager doesn't seem to be working | 15:43 |
| rdesfo | are there any known issues with this? is there a work around? | 15:44 |
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| timeless | that's rather general | 15:45 |
| timeless | can you define "doesn't seem to be working"? | 15:45 |
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| timeless | did it go out for a coffee? | 15:45 |
| iekku | timeless, ... | 15:45 |
| timeless | hey, my coworker went to sleep | 15:45 |
| timeless | that means he "doesn't seem to be working" | 15:46 |
| timeless | but i could wake him up... | 15:46 |
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| iekku | i think i'm going sleeping now | 15:46 |
| rdesfo | you should wake your buddy up. then maybe the meego would work | 15:46 |
| timeless | meego works fine for me, i can file bugs about things in it all day long! | 15:47 |
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| rdesfo | when I click apply it just says that the "software list is refreshing" but doesn't install | 15:47 |
| iekku | timeless, that's nice :) | 15:47 |
| * iekku likes bugs with doos description | 15:48 | |
| iekku | doos? | 15:48 |
| iekku | good | 15:48 |
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| timeless | rdesfo: see, that's a much better description of your problem! | 15:49 |
| gabrbedd | rdesfo: Are you using the netbook UX ? | 15:49 |
| rdesfo | yes | 15:49 |
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| timeless | (do you have a working network? do you have a proxy?) | 15:49 |
| rdesfo | I'm able to connect to the internet | 15:50 |
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| gabrbedd | rdesfo: Open a terminal shell, and do this: | 15:50 |
| gabrbedd | rdesfo: sudo zypper refresh | 15:50 |
| gabrbedd | rdesfo: My guess is that the refresh is choking because it needs/wants you to verify that something is unsigned in the repo. | 15:51 |
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| gabrbedd | rdesfo: After that, you should be able to install the package... and it would be really cool if you would file a bug on bugs.meego.com (if one doesn't already exist) | 15:53 |
| rdesfo | it said everything was update to date | 15:53 |
| rdesfo | then I went back to the application manager and it said the application couldn't be found | 15:53 |
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| gabrbedd | rdesfo: Did it ever say that the application could be found? | 15:55 |
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| gabrbedd | oh... he's gone.... | 15:57 |
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| DawnFoster | TSG meeting starting in 5 minutes over in #meego-meeting http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings | 16:55 |
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| vgrade-nexus_ | Birmingham MeeGo Meeting Pics, http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/03/meego-birmingham-uk-meetup/ | 16:57 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: http://events.linkedin.com/MeeGo-Conference-2011-SFO/pub/587561 ... just FYI ... you may want to claim the event. | 16:57 |
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| lbt | vgrade-nexus_: I thought that was tomorrow | 16:58 |
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| vgrade-nexus_ | lbt, were you planning to attend? | 16:59 |
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| lbt | I was thinking about it | 16:59 |
| * lbt is in Reading | 16:59 | |
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| lbt | thought it was a saturday event.... | 17:00 |
| DawnFoster | lbt: thanks | 17:00 |
| vgrade-nexus_ | lbt, ash is planning more events. Would certainly like to see more developers at the next meet | 17:00 |
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| lcuk | :D vgrade-nexus_ | 17:01 |
| jeremiah | Lot to cover today | 17:01 |
| * lcuk going to Manchester with a few folks on Sunday | 17:01 | |
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| lcuk | but >>> #meego-meeting for now | 17:01 |
| lbt | jeremiah: hey stranger :) | 17:01 |
| jeremiah | Howdy! | 17:02 |
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| jeremiah | lbt: You're going to get the official nod today, no? | 17:02 |
| lbt | not afaik | 17:03 |
| * gabrbedd nods at lbt | 17:03 | |
| lbt | we were supposed to propose it pre-wimper | 17:03 |
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| jeremiah | lbt: I thought you were still on the agenda. | 17:03 |
| jeremiah | Hmm | 17:03 |
| lbt | "Tentatively scheduled for Feb 23" | 17:04 |
| lbt | that's news to me | 17:04 |
| lbt | (good news :) ) | 17:04 |
| jeremiah | Yeah, you're in the backlog any way | 17:05 |
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| jeremiah | So hopefully they'll get to that today. | 17:05 |
| * Jaffa supposes questions about *who* the TSG are now and the governance of the project will fall into AOB | 17:05 | |
| lbt | *g* | 17:05 |
| * Jaffa used to work with Visteon | 17:06 | |
| lbt | I thought they were bright LEDs.... | 17:06 |
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| jeremiah | Jaffa: You used to work with Visteon? | 17:07 |
| jeremiah | I didn't know that. | 17:07 |
| timeless | woohoo! | 17:07 |
| jeremiah | Visteon is one of the biggest "Tier 1" companies | 17:07 |
| timeless | i now have a bugzilla product all to myself! | 17:07 |
| DawnFoster | lbt: let's talk later about your item in the tsg (won't be today) | 17:07 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: Was working at Ford when they were spun out. | 17:08 |
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| lbt | DawnFoster: not expecting it to be... was going to raise it at CO first | 17:08 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Ah, wow. | 17:08 |
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| jeremiah | What is the question policy again? | 17:10 |
| jeremiah | Do we post questions here? | 17:10 |
| jeremiah | Or in #meego-meeting? | 17:10 |
| DawnFoster | jeremiah: we'll ask for questions after the presenter is finished | 17:10 |
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| DawnFoster | the questions get posted in meego-meeting | 17:11 |
| DawnFoster | but not until I ask for them :) | 17:11 |
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| jeremiah | DawnFoster: Okay, thanks! | 17:11 |
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| jeremiah | 600 million subscribers. Not too shabby. | 17:12 |
| wazd_ | http://s011.radikal.ru/i318/1103/fb/5759a8696054.png <- what do you think? :) | 17:13 |
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| jeremiah | wazd_: I think it is nice. And I think it is in Russian. | 17:14 |
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| wazd_ | jeremiah: half in russian :) Just to check how it would look :) | 17:15 |
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| * lbt is confused about nominations from Nokia | 17:15 | |
| jeremiah | lbt: You're not alone. | 17:16 |
| lbt | especially in the upcoming Smart TV section | 17:16 |
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| jeremiah | The LGE nominations are great though. | 17:16 |
| Jaffa | wazd_: CSSU using your icon now :) I've scaled your original to 48, 64 and 108 px sizes needed for the three use cases | 17:17 |
| jeremiah | lbt: Terminal mode in your TV? | 17:17 |
| lbt | yeah LGE .... :) | 17:17 |
| jeremiah | lbt: Good question | 17:17 |
| Stskeeps | lbt, sami is listed on the page | 17:18 |
| timeless | lbt: oh, nokia nominated some tv stuff? | 17:18 |
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| timeless | lbt: keep in mind that nokia in theory still wants to use the people it had allocated to meego | 17:18 |
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| timeless | but it to some extent has indicated that mobile phones = wp7 | 17:19 |
| timeless | if there's an easy spot to move meego people to, that's a good thing | 17:19 |
| timeless | oddly, nokia used to make tv's in the past fwiw | 17:19 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: OK - should have recognised the name | 17:19 |
| * Jaffa has a Nokia STB in the guest room | 17:20 | |
| jeremiah | So Nokia is just one member of the Handset WG now. That should ease compliance a bit. :P | 17:20 |
| wazd_ | Jaffa: great :) | 17:20 |
| Jartza | I have Nokia monitors, old Nokia computers, modems etc :) | 17:21 |
| Jartza | Nokia Mikko computers | 17:21 |
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| Jartza | (not even mikromikko, these are older) | 17:22 |
| lbt | http://meego.com/about/governance/program-office/handset-program ? | 17:22 |
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| jeremiah | lbt: That looks out of date. | 17:23 |
| DawnFoster | the whole governance structure needs to be updated | 17:23 |
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| DawnFoster | I'm hoping we can do that soon | 17:24 |
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| lbt | np | 17:24 |
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| * Stskeeps just hopes it gets done right, with general thoughts outlined and published and then proposal executed | 17:28 | |
| lbt | Intel - Representative: Dominique Le Foll ? | 17:28 |
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| lbt | I thought he was Amino | 17:29 |
| Stskeeps | he moved | 17:29 |
| lbt | ah... should pay more attention | 17:29 |
| Stskeeps | cool @ mips | 17:29 |
| lbt | ah dominig ... :) | 17:29 |
| jeremiah | Yeah, very cool about MIPS | 17:29 |
| lbt | yes.... but whatever happened to AMD.... | 17:29 |
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| Stskeeps | still around i think | 17:30 |
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| jeremiah | dominig: good question | 17:30 |
| Stskeeps | there was an interview | 17:30 |
| lcuk | http://news.softpedia.com/news/AMD-Wants-More-Fusion-Tablets-Investigates-Android-and-MeeGo-190280.shtml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter | 17:30 |
| lcuk | (posted this morning, spotted it) | 17:30 |
| lcuk | does the MIPS hardwareinclude required 3d graphics? | 17:31 |
| pupnik_ | wow this is first time online on 3g on n900 in a loooong time | 17:31 |
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| lbt | lcuk: compliance needs GL iirc | 17:31 |
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| Stskeeps | gles | 17:32 |
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| lbt | picky | 17:32 |
| Stskeeps | morn arjan :) | 17:32 |
| arjan | morning | 17:32 |
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| lcuk | question answered: http://www.mips.com/Customer_newsletter_0908/partnerShowcase.htm | 17:33 |
| arjan | is it safe to be here again ? ;-) | 17:34 |
| * lbt looks around for elephants... | 17:34 | |
| Stskeeps | arjan: it should always be safe or we aren't handling things right here :) | 17:35 |
| lbt | here we go on the "one at a time you naughtly boys" | 17:35 |
| lbt | arjan: we missed you :) | 17:35 |
| qgilN900 | lbt you should be a poet instead (or in addition to) an engineer | 17:35 |
| jeremiah | Its never safe. | 17:35 |
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| alterego | Stskeeps: so what do you mean when you say "we're missing 3D"? :) | 17:35 |
| lbt | qgilN900: I'm a dancer ... it's close ;) | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | alterego: huh? | 17:35 |
| pupnik_ | n900 drawing 115-130 mA in 2g with irc and low brightness | 17:36 |
| * arjan tries to remember what nick carsten normally uses | 17:36 | |
| alterego | Stskeeps: you said something like that earlier when I asked if it was worth me trying to make a hfp image today ;) | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: this one | 17:36 |
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| X-Fade | lol :) | 17:37 |
| qgilN900 | safety is an assumption :) | 17:37 |
| alterego | Whoops, wrong channel | 17:38 |
| alterego | qgilN900: This is what I'm currently having to do irt theming in my dialer: http://pastie.org/1685741 | 17:38 |
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| jeremiah | arjan: Stskeeps | 17:38 |
| lcuk | lbt, with the working group *expansions* it seems hopefully the discussions would be expected to be even more open? | 17:38 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Or lots of closed conference calls | 17:39 |
| lbt | yes... but Intel engineers seem to have been very quiet recently | 17:39 |
| lcuk | everyone has | 17:39 |
| * lcuk hears pin drop in this channel some days | 17:39 | |
| qgilN900 | alterego: I see... | 17:40 |
| * TSCHAKeee is just slowly porting parts of LinuxMCE to MeeGo, and only pops up to dispense with comment :P | 17:40 | |
| alterego | qgilN900: There are a few possibilities in regards to actually getting proper colours, once the Qt -> MeeGo Touch bridge is done, hopefully QPalette will have the proper values. Though this may not be the case. | 17:41 |
| arjan | lbt: the situation is a bit weird. | 17:41 |
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| arjan | and the press is paying very close attention as well on anything nokia related right now | 17:42 |
| arjan | so every half sentence on a mailing list becomes a news story | 17:42 |
| lcuk | TSCHAKeee, it seems many folks see the same thing, but if we each hide away in caves it is no wonder teamwork does not appear to happen | 17:42 |
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| qgilN900 | arjan you tell me :) | 17:42 |
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| lbt | arjan: yep I can appreciate that ... and sympathise | 17:43 |
| vgrade-nexus_ | TSCHAKeee, hi, got time to talk | 17:43 |
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| TSCHAKeee | lcuk: indeed. you're right... the issue here is that honestly, I have a huge project that i am wrangling...and I only say or ask something. | 17:43 |
| TSCHAKeee | vgrade-nexus_: whazzup? | 17:43 |
| arjan | lbt: in addition it's a bit unclear who will be working on meego outside of intel going forward | 17:43 |
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| lbt | arjan: tell me about it ;) | 17:43 |
| * TSCHAKeee is in an engineering meeting, but a significant chunk of my brain isn't being used..so...I can haz multitask. | 17:43 | |
| jeremiah | arjan: Looks like a lot of other companies are joining the working groups . . . | 17:43 |
| lbt | I still have a job with Nokia..... for now ..... | 17:43 |
| maligor | TSCHAKeee, I know the feeling | 17:44 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: I have a QUESTION... let me know when I can ask ... this pause is pregnant | 17:45 |
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| lbt | slow typing .... | 17:46 |
| DawnFoster | lbt - go! | 17:46 |
| DawnFoster | :) | 17:46 |
| qgilN900 | lbt and your question really is...? :) | 17:47 |
| lbt | should MeeGo core focus on delivering less stuff more reliably | 17:47 |
| lbt | and focus on vendors and not distros | 17:47 |
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| arfoll | i think considering who's in the WG that question answers itself | 17:48 |
| pupnik_ | lots of talented ppl around, but some degree of paralysis | 17:48 |
| qgilN900 | I'm with arfoll | 17:48 |
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| arjan | lbt: "meego core" does not exist. | 17:49 |
| arjan | meego is a distribution that needs to have a wide range of tools, not just what ends up on the device, to be viable for developers and others. | 17:49 |
| lbt | arjan: it has boundaries | 17:49 |
| lbt | and there's a scope to what can be regression tested at release | 17:49 |
| arjan | meego right now is too small, maybe some 1400 packages | 17:49 |
| Jaffa | DawnFoster: Just thought of a related question | 17:49 |
| lbt | and what is a release blocker | 17:49 |
| arjan | that'll need to go up to maybe 2500 ish to be minimum viable | 17:50 |
| Jaffa | Actually, don't bother. | 17:50 |
| lbt | arjan: I'd like to find some time to discuss this with you ... maybe a BOF session at SF ? | 17:50 |
| arjan | sure | 17:50 |
| arjan | now there is a set that is assumed to be on devices, and a set that is not | 17:50 |
| arjan | and that's clearly a split in terms of QA effort, more than fair enough. | 17:51 |
| arjan | but what goes on devices also is more wide than some nokia guys think about | 17:51 |
| arjan | not everything is a phone ;) | 17:51 |
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| lbt | arjan: and I want to allow meego 'core' (should it exist) to focus more on it's real customers | 17:51 |
| lbt | and if one of those customers is meego 'distro' ... which provides the tools etc... that's great | 17:52 |
| qgilN900 | personal opinion: I would be happy if MeeGo would release the best mobile stack from Kernel to Qt every 6 months like a clock, plus the corresponding platform and application developer tools, leaving the UXs entirely and explicitely to vendors and the community | 17:52 |
| lbt | it makes meego less introspective | 17:52 |
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| lbt | qgilN900: exactly | 17:52 |
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| leinir | qgilN900++ | 17:53 |
| pupnik_ | agrees | 17:53 |
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| Jaffa | Ditto | 17:53 |
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| jeremiah | I think that is a good vision, but I don't think that fits with Intel's vision | 17:54 |
| jeremiah | I think Intel wants UIs as part of MeeGo | 17:54 |
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| lbt | arjan: I very much *do not think* that meego should be phone oriented | 17:54 |
| lbt | jeremiah: couldn't a UI project be like a reference vendor project | 17:54 |
| gabrbedd | I think a common and/or reference UX is very important. | 17:55 |
| jeremiah | Sure, but isn't that tricky? I mean, things need to be pretty polished. | 17:55 |
| arjan | you cannot decouple user experience from the OS | 17:55 |
| lbt | which exercises and validates a meego-core external communication focus | 17:55 |
| arjan | experience goes through the whole stack, not jsut the pretty pixels part | 17:55 |
| Jaffa | gabrbedd: Reference UXes encourage closed thinking, cos everything is viewed as "MeeGo's tablet UI" | 17:56 |
| jeremiah | Exactly, you need almost a separate library per vertical since the input mechanisms in each vertical are so different | 17:56 |
| lbt | arjan: not disagreeing ... just looking to trim the fat and provide a scalable mechanism to expand the project | 17:56 |
| qgilN900 | arjan, the fact is that there will be different UXs in different MeeGo products | 17:56 |
| gabrbedd | Jaffa: users are closed thinkers. They don't get a flip about your innovative UI. They don't want to have to learn a new UI with every device. | 17:56 |
| jeremiah | lbt: You could extend that argument though down to just the kernel and the BSP | 17:56 |
| gabrbedd | Jaffa: That's why people stick with Windows. | 17:57 |
| lbt | jeremiah: the kernel delivers the kernel.... not even libc | 17:57 |
| gabrbedd | Jade: ...and why people hated Vista (because something changed) | 17:57 |
| jeremiah | gabrbedd: I don't agree - look at the phenominal rise of Android | 17:57 |
| qgilN900 | arjan you need a UX to test your enablers, but ultimately what counts are the real bugs found by real product and apps developers | 17:57 |
| jeremiah | qgilN900: Sure. But then Intel needs to create _two_ UIs; their "proprietary" UI and the MeeGo UI | 17:58 |
| gabrbedd | jeremiah: And all the reviews are on the UX. | 17:58 |
| lbt | jeremiah: they have an open (soon) MeeGo UI | 17:59 |
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| X-Fade | I guess the real question is if MeeGo expects vendors to ship the reference ui (like most android OEMs) or vendors create their own experience on top of MeeGo. | 17:59 |
| X-Fade | And create fragmentation because of that. | 17:59 |
| jeremiah | But if you say that no one in MeeGo should focus on UI, then you can start taking out bits like Qt. | 18:00 |
| qgilN900 | jeremiah - why? open UIs are extremely good for testing platforms and proprietary UIs should be a work left for whoever is investing in a commercial product | 18:00 |
| lcuk | my 2c: #MeeGo is meant to be #Smart #Fast #Simple #Intuitive #Innovative and #Different on ALL devices. | 18:00 |
| jeremiah | You can start to pare the whole OS down to busybox | 18:00 |
| jeremiah | qgilN900: Because even today you have customers who insist on clutter | 18:00 |
| jeremiah | qgilN900: You have to have _all_ UI libs now | 18:00 |
| qgilN900 | but no worries, that was just my personal opinion and what matters is what the real stakeholders think it's better for their business, seriously | 18:01 |
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| jeremiah | Indeed. | 18:01 |
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| akssps011 | Hi, is there a 64 bit version of meego sdk for debian ? | 18:02 |
| qgilN900 | need to go, thanks for the chat :) | 18:02 |
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| jeremiah | -) | 18:03 |
| jeremiah | Or :-) even! | 18:03 |
| jeremiah | akssps011: Not really. What are you looking to develop? Many of the libs already exist in Debian | 18:03 |
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| jeremiah | akssps011: Although I suppose you could get MADDE to run on Debian. | 18:04 |
| akssps011 | jeremiah: I am trying out KDE Marble meant for meego. | 18:04 |
| lbt | arjan: maybe you should hold regular IRC "The architect is in" sessions | 18:05 |
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| akssps011 | jeremiah: is it same as the SDK simulator ? I saw that there exists one for fedora 13 64 bit but not for debian | 18:06 |
| jeremiah | akssps011: I'm not sure if MADDE is the same as the SDK simulator | 18:07 |
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| jeremiah | Back in the Maemo days it was a SDK that did fancy chroot stuff and used xepher so it was a kind of "simulator" | 18:08 |
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| jeremiah | I don't know if MADDE has transmogrified into the SDK simulator, though someone in this channel should know | 18:08 |
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| jeremiah | Whoa. KDE Marble looks really cool | 18:09 |
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| akssps011 | :) | 18:11 |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: You dropped your pin. | 18:39 |
| lcuk | gabrbedd, ? | 18:39 |
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| gabrbedd | "* lcuk hears pin drop in this channel some days" | 18:41 |
| lcuk | :D heh | 18:41 |
| * lcuk picks it up | 18:41 | |
| berndhs | yeah but that's because lcuk works when the reasonable world is asleep :) | 18:41 |
| lcuk | berndhs, no, I just get talkative in evening, MeeGo has a great number of people in America does it not ;) | 18:42 |
| pupnik_ | gotta run | 18:43 |
| berndhs | I think IRC is thinner in America than in Europe | 18:43 |
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| gabrbedd | berndhs: #meego from 9PM-Midnight CDT is really, really dead. | 18:44 |
| gabrbedd | berndhs: It's just as well, though, it gets pretty distracting. | 18:44 |
| berndhs | I tried #qt-qml, its dead all day and night | 18:45 |
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| gabrbedd | berndhs: most folks just ask on #qt | 18:46 |
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| lcuk | names | 18:47 |
| * lcuk hmms | 18:47 | |
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| * lcuk ponders heading into a cave outside work hours | 18:49 | |
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| lofty306 | cave good | 18:49 |
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| arfoll | if do osc copypac what happens if a package was a link? | 18:51 |
| lcuk | lofty306, indeed :) get to do lots of cave painting! | 18:51 |
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| arfoll | the -e option is confusing me, expanding means copying it out fully? I'd like it to link to where the original package was linking | 18:52 |
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| lcuk | sigh http://hackaday.com/2011/03/18/junkyard-jumbotron-is-begging-to-for-an-open-source-project-clone/ | 19:03 |
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| lcuk | that is slow | 19:04 |
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| * lcuk contacts MIT | 19:05 | |
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| ali1234 | of course it is slow, it is cloud based | 19:28 |
| ali1234 | you can't even use it with anything except photos that you send to their website | 19:28 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, since the components are designed to be in the same room, it could communicate using LAN/WiFi/adhoc | 19:29 |
| lcuk | ;) | 19:29 |
| ali1234 | and instead of doing something sensible like using VNC, they use a web browser to render the display | 19:29 |
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| ali1234 | communication method is not the problem here | 19:29 |
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| ali1234 | the problem is use of html5 | 19:30 |
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| lcuk | lol | 19:30 |
| lcuk | ali1234, sending via vnc is problematic also | 19:31 |
| ali1234 | no | 19:31 |
| lcuk | due to bandwidth constraints | 19:31 |
| lcuk | sure it is | 19:31 |
| pupnik_ | lcuk you try e-cigs yet? | 19:31 |
| lcuk | sending a data stream to 8 other machines in realtime | 19:31 |
| ali1234 | right. sending a whole new jpeg for every frame is going to be way better. right | 19:31 |
| ali1234 | vnc works on a 56k modem with a 800x600 screen | 19:31 |
| lcuk | ali1234, how about just sending the coordinates required todisplay | 19:31 |
| ali1234 | oh, you mean like vnc does? | 19:32 |
| lcuk | once they all have same image url it is trivial | 19:32 |
| ali1234 | right, and what happens if you want to display something other than a static image? | 19:32 |
| lcuk | ali1234, each device needs same data | 19:32 |
| lcuk | the problem you describe is exactly the same as smart tvs have | 19:32 |
| lcuk | even TSCHAKeee has to overcome similar | 19:33 |
| lcuk | moving video from playing on desktop to laptop for instance | 19:33 |
| ali1234 | who cares about video? | 19:33 |
| ali1234 | anything less than full desktop is pointless | 19:33 |
| lcuk | people who want to carry on watching video from their big tv whilst they go to the toilet | 19:33 |
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| CosmoHill | people should buy sky+ | 19:34 |
| ali1234 | right | 19:34 |
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| ali1234 | this is what sensible people do | 19:34 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, the sky+ app to record on the go is nice :) | 19:34 |
| CosmoHill | who wants to go from a 40" with a 5.1 surround to a small phone? | 19:34 |
| ali1234 | however you are missing the point completely | 19:34 |
| CosmoHill | I probably am | 19:34 |
| ali1234 | which is that html5 has no advantages over vnc, and just causes a bunch of problems | 19:34 |
| lbt | ROFL .... sky+ is useless .... MythTV :) | 19:34 |
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| lcuk | lbt it is not pointless | 19:35 |
| CosmoHill | lbt: I improved my sky+ box by removing the hard drive and cooling fan | 19:35 |
| lcuk | I have now seen a bunch of friends randomly notice something on tv whilst out | 19:35 |
| lcuk | and record them | 19:35 |
| lcuk | it is actually novel :) | 19:35 |
| lcuk | mass market simplicity | 19:35 |
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| haltdef | have fun getting your sky card working in a pc | 19:35 |
| lbt | mmm ... been doing that for >5 years .... | 19:35 |
| haltdef | doable but so much work :P | 19:35 |
| lbt | haltdef: you managed it ? | 19:36 |
| * lbt goes via PVR still - works just fine | 19:36 | |
| haltdef | no, I use a dreambox and card share | 19:36 |
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| lcuk | more important though: MeeGo tv will need to do similar | 19:37 |
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| lcuk | and you better hope there is a MeeGo app for remote controlling the MeeGo tv ! | 19:38 |
| lbt | yeah - I'm not sure where it's going | 19:38 |
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| lbt | too much time and money being wasted in DRM | 19:38 |
| lcuk | lbt, into the home. | 19:38 |
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| * lcuk sent first mail to MIT | 19:39 | |
| lbt | chasing last centuries business model | 19:39 |
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| lbt | heck ... we had VHS last century.... we're at sub-VHS levels now | 19:39 |
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| CosmoHill | lbt: youtube? | 19:39 |
| ali1234 | ha ha ha | 19:39 |
| lcuk | lbt, sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forwards. | 19:40 |
| lbt | "you're doing it wrong" | 19:40 |
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| lbt | when the objective is "make people watch the video stream" ... then it'll work | 19:41 |
| lbt | the current business plan is "how do we stop them" | 19:41 |
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| lbt | duh | 19:41 |
| lcuk | You cant stop the signal, Mal. | 19:41 |
| lbt | lets launch a business stopping people watching what we sell.... ROFL | 19:42 |
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| Bostik | there is a name for that | 19:42 |
| lcuk | oh, forgot attributation: - Mr. Universe, Serenity 2005. | 19:42 |
| Bostik | "extortion" | 19:42 |
| lbt | Bostik: "stupidity" | 19:42 |
| lcuk | lbt, so, what is the alternative? | 19:43 |
| * lcuk does not mind DRM per say, it gives people something to do. | 19:44 | |
| lbt | lcuk: Wargames | 19:44 |
| Bostik | right, that too | 19:44 |
| lbt | tic-tac-toe | 19:44 |
| lcuk | lbt, that is what tictactoe is for | 19:44 |
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| lbt | the only winning strategy.... | 19:44 |
| * lcuk plays regularly | 19:44 | |
| lcuk | :P | 19:44 |
| Bostik | a game of thermonuclear war? | 19:44 |
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| lcuk | did you know lbt, that tictactoe is great for teaching people how to write | 19:44 |
| lcuk | because you have to get used to doing letter formation in a fixed size | 19:45 |
| lbt | Bostik: they're engaging in guerilla warfare | 19:45 |
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| lbt | Bostik: and generally yes, the winning strategy is to napalm the villages and sod the consequences.... | 19:45 |
| Bostik | the two don2 go well together, I think | 19:45 |
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| CosmoHill | I swear a moment ago we were talking about sky+ boxes and now we've moved onto mass murder, wtf? | 19:46 |
| Bostik | "first rule of jungle warfare: get rid of the jungle" | 19:46 |
| lbt | I noticed the US took further steps to make copying a video attract similar punishment to rape... | 19:46 |
| lbt | and they made it a felony so the corporates don't even have to waste time in civil suits | 19:47 |
| Bostik | finns have long since gone past | 19:47 |
| lbt | so I do feel that it's not a nice place | 19:47 |
| lcuk | ok, remove drm but still allow movies to be released | 19:48 |
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| lcuk | how do you manage it without and to ensure that a business model can continue? | 19:49 |
| ali1234 | you can't | 19:49 |
| ali1234 | why is this a problem? | 19:49 |
| lcuk | ali1234, really? | 19:49 |
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| lcuk | it *is* possible | 19:50 |
| ali1234 | you can't "ensure that a business model can continue" | 19:50 |
| lcuk | Coldplay did it with their albums | 19:50 |
| gabrbedd | Music is different from movies. | 19:50 |
| lcuk | no it isn't. | 19:50 |
| gabrbedd | Music artists have historically /never/ made any money off their albums. | 19:50 |
| lcuk | it is data that people worked hard to create | 19:50 |
| gabrbedd | The make it in live performances... concerts. | 19:50 |
| lcuk | same as apps | 19:51 |
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| lcuk | same as photographs | 19:51 |
| gabrbedd | So, the record companies made the $$ of record sales, and the artists had to hit the road. | 19:51 |
| ali1234 | poor pop stars... working so hard all the time | 19:51 |
| ali1234 | bawwww | 19:51 |
| lcuk | ali1234, software then. | 19:51 |
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| gabrbedd | Movies and photography are different because the data /is/ the artist's primary revenue stream. | 19:51 |
| * timoph was about to comment but decided to stay out of this discussion :) | 19:51 | |
| ali1234 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdsL4kvp_I | 19:52 |
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| Bostik | on a tangentially related note, I personally think there is something utterly broken when you need a pair of earplugs if you go to watch a movie in cinema | 19:53 |
| * lcuk just thinks that random trashing of a model without even considering an alternative is a bit silly | 19:53 | |
| lbt | lcuk: make the objective is "make people watch the video stream" ... then it'll work | 19:53 |
| * ali1234 thinks requiring everything be meticulously planned and controlled is quite silly too | 19:53 | |
| lcuk | lbt - ok | 19:53 |
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| lcuk | how do you give the producers a pat on the back? | 19:54 |
| lbt | credits | 19:54 |
| lcuk | how does that help? we have credits now on paid for media | 19:55 |
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| ali1234 | personally i think if there was less money involved in movies and music and tv then the quality would improve a lot | 19:55 |
| ali1234 | same goes for professional sports actually | 19:56 |
| ali1234 | and software too | 19:56 |
| CosmoHill | ali1234: you mean if people had to work harder for the money | 19:56 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: yeah pretty much | 19:56 |
| lbt | lcuk: what you meant was "where's the revenue stream" | 19:56 |
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| ali1234 | it would remove the shovelware from the equation and make it easier to find the quality | 19:56 |
| lcuk | yes | 19:56 |
| lcuk | lbt ^ | 19:56 |
| lbt | but most TV programming is truly shit.... | 19:57 |
| * CosmoHill avoids ITV | 19:57 | |
| lcuk | eye of the beholder. | 19:57 |
| Bostik | when your largest target group has a 5-second attention span, you can't really aim for quality | 19:57 |
| lbt | add the product placement.... and pay to show it | 19:57 |
| ali1234 | you can blame the public but that isn't really the whole picture | 19:57 |
| lcuk | for many people, what we see as shit because we interact with our devices are a lifeline | 19:57 |
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| ali1234 | the "5 second attention span" isn't the largest group, it is merely the cheapest to produce for. and therefore the most profitable | 19:58 |
| lcuk | lbt, reasonable - advertising supported | 19:58 |
| lbt | ali1234: I'm not claiming that it'll produce quality programming :) | 19:58 |
| * lcuk notes the number of apps which are fully branded | 19:58 | |
| Bostik | right, the most important one then :( | 19:58 |
| ali1234 | increasing or descreasing the revenue stream would not change this fact | 19:58 |
| CosmoHill | when we say "crap tv", we're talking about UK standards right? | 19:58 |
| * gabrbedd 's favorite TV station is "OFF" | 19:58 | |
| berndhs | most important group is kids that buy with their parents money | 19:59 |
| lbt | CosmoHill: US TV measured by UK standards... yep | 19:59 |
| lbt | also... BBC | 19:59 |
| lcuk | berndhs, imagine what happens if you find something the parents themselves like :) | 19:59 |
| berndhs | parents are too careful with their money | 19:59 |
| CosmoHill | watching US programs that are streamed live on sports channels are weird | 19:59 |
| * lcuk notes the number of elderly people who remark with joy at something as simple as handwriting. | 19:59 | |
| CosmoHill | cos when the americans have an advert the UK don't | 19:59 |
| berndhs | and if kids get used to your brand, a lot of them stay loyal | 19:59 |
| Bostik | some short BBC series, such as Jekyll... | 20:00 |
| lbt | lcuk: that's just nostalgia | 20:00 |
| CosmoHill | I think I counted 4 US adverts for every 1 UK advert | 20:00 |
| Bostik | yum | 20:00 |
| lcuk | lbt :) it might be | 20:00 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: So... liqbase is for elderly people? :-p | 20:00 |
| lcuk | gabrbedd, I always said it was simplified computing | 20:00 |
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| CosmoHill | my grandad was on wikipedia the other day so I made the joke about him being online | 20:01 |
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| lcuk | it is for people who do not like complex computers | 20:01 |
| lcuk | :) | 20:01 |
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| ali1234 | gabrbedd: it's an emulation of a notebook, something people under 40 have probably never seen... so yeah | 20:01 |
| lcuk | gabrbedd, my nana used the firstversion | 20:01 |
| * lcuk dislikes complex computers | 20:01 | |
| lbt | lcuk: I'm waiting for it to *do* something with a scribble | 20:02 |
| ali1234 | ted nelson would probably have a heart attack if you showed him liqbase | 20:02 |
| lbt | when I draw a tic-tac-toe board... I want it to draw a X | 20:02 |
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| lcuk | lbt, heh | 20:02 |
| lbt | you have the weekend | 20:02 |
| lcuk | I am writing prototype mywatch this weekend | 20:03 |
| lbt | sometimes I want it to draw a tic-tac-toe board and say "shall we play" | 20:03 |
| lcuk | I showed some mates the idea last night :) | 20:03 |
| CosmoHill | my lecturer said that computer minded people are actually more paitent with computers cos they understand the workload | 20:03 |
| lcuk | lbt that would be a multi stroke gesture | 20:03 |
| CosmoHill | this backfires when you run a simple task and it takes a long itme | 20:03 |
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| * gabrbedd really likes liqbase.... | 20:04 | |
| lbt | CosmoHill: leading to error messages like "Sheesh... hang on will you" | 20:04 |
| CosmoHill | "well I don't see you doing any work" | 20:04 |
| CosmoHill | "I'm multitasking, why don't you?" | 20:04 |
| CosmoHill | speaking of multiasking, it takes 9 hours for my 16 core cluster to compute all goldbach conjecture numbers under 500,000 | 20:06 |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, but can it put a fruit pastel in its drive bay without chewing it? | 20:09 |
| GAN900 | CosmoHill, yes, except when it's slow for no good reason. ;) | 20:09 |
| CosmoHill | lcuk: well it can put a DVD in it's drive without reading it so probably yes | 20:09 |
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| lcuk | not surprisingly, the n900 meego appears to run "make -j 1" faster than "make -j 2" | 20:10 |
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| * lcuk compares directly with n900 maemo | 20:15 | |
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| * CosmoHill is mildly amazed that he just played a flash video full screen | 20:16 | |
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| chandoo | guyz i cam in here thinking about sip | 21:00 |
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| chandoo | looks like the link you posted in topic is not working, some kinda space in the link with some | in it | 21:01 |
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| chandoo | your admin might know this thanks | 21:01 |
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| CosmoHill | I'm really confused | 21:02 |
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| andre__ | who isn't... | 21:02 |
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| CosmoHill | oh I see | 21:03 |
| CosmoHill | my client won't open the first two links in the IRC topic | 21:03 |
| CosmoHill | "http://meego.com" becomes "http://meego.com |" | 21:03 |
| berndhs | CosmoHill: that's your IRC client being confused, not the link | 21:04 |
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| lcuk | Who keeps spreading the meme that MeeGo file systems are slower tham Maemo? | 21:29 |
| lcuk | because from what I can gather, MeeGo filesystem is quite substantially faster than same machine running Maemo (at least for the tests I just ran) | 21:30 |
| lcuk | MeeGo: | 21:30 |
| lcuk | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/meego/svn_tab/libliqbase/src' | 21:30 |
| lcuk | real2m43.337s | 21:30 |
| lcuk | Maemo: | 21:30 |
| lcuk | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/user/svn_tab/libliqbase/src' | 21:30 |
| lcuk | real4m 28.92s | 21:30 |
| lcuk | that is MeeGo running on a 4gb class 2 card. | 21:30 |
| lcuk | and with the slower cpu | 21:31 |
| lcuk | more indepth notes and things: http://pastebin.com/RTP1bUDT | 21:31 |
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| ali1234 | it's a fact that sd/mcc is significantly slower than nand regardless of what filesystem you use | 21:32 |
| lcuk | ali1234, I tried the Maemo results on different parts of the filesystem | 21:33 |
| lcuk | to try and determine that | 21:33 |
| lcuk | I ran it on | 21:33 |
| lcuk | : /root | 21:33 |
| lcuk | : /home | 21:33 |
| lcuk | : //home/user | 21:33 |
| lcuk | : /home/user/MyDocs | 21:33 |
| lcuk | with negligable difference | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | try it on / | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | everything under /home is on mmc | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | not sure about /root | 21:34 |
| lcuk | /root is on the rootfs | 21:34 |
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| lcuk | but hold on then :) | 21:34 |
| lcuk | just for completeness | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | also be sure to test read and write independently | 21:34 |
| lcuk | it was real world test | 21:34 |
| andre__ | hmm. MeeGo wasn't accepted for Summer of Code 2011. pity. | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | real world = "how long does it take to load programs?" | 21:35 |
| lcuk | and MeeGo filesystem appeared to make it much faster | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | this is a pure read operation | 21:35 |
| lcuk | ? | 21:35 |
| lcuk | "time make" | 21:35 |
| lcuk | was the command | 21:35 |
| lcuk | compiling a library | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | make involves copious amounts of writing | 21:35 |
| lcuk | lots of read and write | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | not no mention high cpu use | 21:35 |
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| lcuk | yes, another thing I was expecting MeeGo to do poorly at | 21:36 |
| lcuk | since the cpu has a max of 500mhz | 21:36 |
| lcuk | vs Maemo having a max of 600 | 21:36 |
| ali1234 | why would meego be poor at compiling? it runs the cpu at full speed all the time :) | 21:36 |
| jonnor | andre__: not too suprising, considering the quality of the ideas posted | 21:36 |
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| jonnor | quality+quantity | 21:37 |
| jonnor | there was definetely some good ones there as well :) | 21:37 |
| andre__ | jonnor, yeah, I had the same expectation | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | when you have a job like compiling that jumps around all over the place doing different things, you will often see the cpu scaling jump around all over the place | 21:37 |
| lcuk | ali1234, I expected the combination of meegoisms to make the operation slower | 21:37 |
| andre__ | jonnor: we missed created a critical mass of good proposals | 21:37 |
| lcuk | but it was faster hence my surprise :) | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | this leads to innefficient use of CPU | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | also cpu scaling under maemo is about saving power, not getting the job done | 21:38 |
| jonnor | andre__: yeah | 21:38 |
| andre__ | jonnor: plus I didn't have enough time to pimp up the wikipages :-/ | 21:38 |
| andre__ | well, at least I have a bit more of free time then :-P | 21:39 |
| lcuk | ali1234, am running it in performance mode just to confirm | 21:40 |
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| ali1234 | make sure that disk cache is configured the same way on each too | 21:40 |
| ali1234 | and that the background processes are behaving the same way | 21:40 |
| ali1234 | otherwise you can't just say "meego is faster because of the file system" | 21:40 |
| lcuk | head brick wall | 21:41 |
| ali1234 | in fact you can't say anything at all about the relative speed of a single part of the system in isolation | 21:41 |
| lcuk | this is just showing something | 21:41 |
| lcuk | "take maemo, do this this this and this" and it takes X | 21:41 |
| lcuk | "take meego, do this this this and this" and it takes Y | 21:41 |
| lcuk | Y is much lower than X | 21:42 |
| ali1234 | that's funny, because it sounded like you were using this as evidence that meego's filesystem is faster than maemo's | 21:42 |
| lcuk | for the same operations I tested | 21:42 |
| ali1234 | i got this impression when you said "from what I can gather, MeeGo filesystem is quite substantially faster than same machine running Maemo (at least for the tests I just ran)" | 21:42 |
| lcuk | well, it does. I was frustrated hearing people say that it was slower. | 21:43 |
| lcuk | and surprised myself at it not being :) | 21:43 |
| ali1234 | your tests are completely inconclusive on this issue, as i just explained | 21:43 |
| ali1234 | tbh i have no idea if btrfs is faster or slower or what | 21:44 |
| ali1234 | all i know is that running with / on sd has quite a big impact on read speeds | 21:45 |
| ali1234 | which is what determines things like "how fast does it boot" and "how quickly do programs load" | 21:45 |
| lcuk | ali1234, this is like getting in 2 new cars out of the showroom cars and driving round a track - at the moment MeeGo out of the box did almost 2x better | 21:45 |
| ali1234 | but has little impact on operations like "compiling a library" | 21:45 |
| lcuk | if you want to take Maemo into a garage and tweak scientifically, be my guest | 21:46 |
| ali1234 | hell no | 21:46 |
| lcuk | I am actually pleased that we have MeeGo at the point where this sort of like for like comparisons are possible! | 21:46 |
| lcuk | btw, maemo in performance mode barely touches the timing | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | what you are doing is like getting 2 brand new sports cars and comparing their relative ability to pull heavy machinery | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | and then concluding from the results that one is better than the other because of the colour of the paint | 21:47 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, show me proper benchmarks then | 21:48 |
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| ali1234 | well i would start with hdparm on the block device to get a baseline of the read/write speed | 21:49 |
| lcuk | cool | 21:49 |
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| lcuk | I am actually done compiling what I needed to anyway, it was just curiosity that I timed them | 21:49 |
| lcuk | ping me when you get some benchies yourself \o | 21:49 |
| ali1234 | heh | 21:50 |
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| ali1234 | i'm happy to live in ignorance | 21:50 |
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| ali1234 | if you are too that's fine by me | 21:50 |
| lcuk | ali1234, why is it ignorance? | 21:51 |
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| alterego | Hah, I just found my music collection :D | 21:51 |
| ali1234 | because your "results" are meaningless because you didn't follow the scientific method | 21:51 |
| alterego | 20G worth of CDs most of which I lost went I moved. | 21:51 |
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| ali1234 | therefore we learned nothing from your tests | 21:51 |
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| ali1234 | therefore we are just as ignorant as we were before :) | 21:52 |
| lcuk | ali1234, I installed the required bits to make a compiler work | 21:52 |
| lcuk | and ran make | 21:52 |
| lcuk | that is as scientific as needbe on any linux system | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | we know meego compiles things faster, we don't know why though | 21:52 |
| * lcuk happy with "magic" | 21:53 | |
| ali1234 | good :) | 21:53 |
| * lcuk gives mad props to N900 adaption team ;) | 21:53 | |
| ali1234 | then we are in agreement :) | 21:53 |
| lcuk | when you have a real result as I say, ping me | 21:54 |
| ali1234 | don't hold your breath :) | 21:55 |
| lcuk | there are 483 others who might want to know the real reason too and hopefully me digging might encourage one of them ;) | 21:55 |
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| TSCHAKeee | any intel guys in here? Is it possible to run X on the CE41x0? | 22:53 |
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| sjokkis | What's the IRC nick of Jayabharath Goluguri? | 23:22 |
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| CosmoHill | sjokkis: look on the who's who wiki page | 23:27 |
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| sjokkis | CosmoHill: it was just his first name, actually | 23:28 |
| sjokkis | but thanks | 23:28 |
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| thiago_home | did we get to GSoC? | 23:47 |
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| gabrbedd | thiago_home: ML post says no, meego didn't make it. | 23:53 |
| thiago_home | melhortoo bad | 23:54 |
| thiago_home | oops | 23:55 |
| thiago_home | too bad | 23:55 |
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| berndhs | it's a conspiracy no doubt | 23:57 |
| * gabrbedd wasn't going to go there | 23:58 | |
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