IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2011-03-06

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TSCHAKeee	smoku: you around man?	01:18
TSCHAKeee	smoku: do you have a ks you're using for maego?	01:18
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TSCHAKeee	vgrade: do you happen to have a ks for smoku's cordia stuff?	01:26
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smoku	TSCHAKeee, http://codex.xiaoka.com/wiki/cordia:install_guide	01:30
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TSCHAKeee	smoku: i am making a custom image for the joggler	01:31
TSCHAKeee	smoku: can i just smack those two packages into the packages list, or is there some postinstall stuff I need to deal with?	01:31
smoku	you will need my repo	01:33
smoku	and this two packages	01:33
TSCHAKeee	gotcha okay	01:33
TSCHAKeee	thanks	01:33
TSCHAKeee	i hope this will work a bit better.	01:33
TSCHAKeee	smoku: is there a network configuration applet?	01:33
TSCHAKeee	no big deal, i just am trying to figure out if i need to write one	01:34
smoku	nope	01:35
smoku	a) maemo one is closed source	01:35
smoku	b) meego uses connman not networkmanager, either way	01:35
TSCHAKeee	facepalm fuck.	01:35
TSCHAKeee	ohhhhkay then	01:36
smoku	BTW, you will miss the hildon-theme-marina in the arm repo - package build crashes while building on arm	01:37
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TSCHAKeee	smoku: i saw that	01:41
TSCHAKeee	smoku: luckily i am building for i586	01:41
TSCHAKeee	ia32	01:41
TSCHAKeee	x86 blah :P	01:41
smoku	oh. so you're fine	01:41
TSCHAKeee	oh crap i realized	01:42
TSCHAKeee	no on screen keyboard	01:42
TSCHAKeee	ok this will be fun :P	01:42
* CosmoHill sets fire to Octave		01:42
smoku	jup. I have real keyboard on ideapad	01:43
TSCHAKeee	was the maemo on screen keyboard also closed?	01:43
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TSCHAKeee	this is giving me a serious headache	01:44
TSCHAKeee	i have a multi million LOC project that I have to watch over to begin with	01:44
TSCHAKeee	and i am trying to port orbiter over to	01:44
TSCHAKeee	oh wait, now I also have to write a network applet and a fucking on screen keyboard	01:45
TSCHAKeee	great.	01:45
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, your app is a remote control thingy isn't it?	01:45
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: it is a front end to LinuxMCE, yes.	01:45
lcuk	home control system/media centre	01:45
TSCHAKeee	smart home platform	01:45
TSCHAKeee	yeah	01:45
lcuk	does it not include a keyboard in that?	01:45
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TSCHAKeee	lcuk: yes, once it gets into Orbiter	01:46
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lcuk	ahh	01:46
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: but I need to at least set the network parameters	01:46
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: so the system finds the orbiter	01:46
lcuk	I know that feeling	01:46
lcuk	n900 has at least usb network	01:46
lcuk	by default	01:46
lcuk	perhaps building on a simpler platform until it is in obs	01:46
lcuk	would get around those issues?	01:46
lcuk	is once in obs and ported you can run	01:47
TSCHAKeee	like...what? ;)	01:47
TSCHAKeee	i've got an archos 9 here	01:47
TSCHAKeee	and a joggler	01:47
TSCHAKeee	and an n900	01:47
lcuk	sdk/virtual machine etc?	01:47
TSCHAKeee	yeah...	01:47
lcuk	why not the n900?	01:47
TSCHAKeee	because we already have a native orbiter running in maemo for it	01:47
TSCHAKeee	i'm trying to build something that people can use	01:47
lcuk	sure	01:48
TSCHAKeee	and i am also working on a port of DCE to java	01:48
TSCHAKeee	for android too	01:48
TSCHAKeee	so that eventually i can make a real Orbiter for Android	01:48
lcuk	heavy going then	01:48
* lcuk just spent half hour twiddling with makefile		01:48
TSCHAKeee	instead of the proxy orbiter we have running on android and ipad at present	01:48
lcuk	couple of days on bugs	01:48
TSCHAKeee	(proxy meaning, core does all the lifting, sending images to the target device, and target device sending back presses)	01:49
TSCHAKeee	gotcha.	01:49
* lcuk wants a nice joggler image soon too		01:49
TSCHAKeee	I got Orbiter building on OBS a few days ago	01:49
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, can you boot from joggler if you plug a usb hub in	01:49
TSCHAKeee	hardest part was getting mySQL to build on OBS in the first place	01:49
lcuk	so you can plug usb keyboard	01:49
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: yes	01:49
TSCHAKeee	and i can do that here, i will not put that as an expectation on users though.	01:50
TSCHAKeee	i am something of a perfectionist	01:50
lcuk	my biggest gripe with joggler is when power is unplugged	01:50
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, but to get past this for now	01:50
TSCHAKeee	yeah	01:50
lcuk	handset includes vkb	01:51
TSCHAKeee	yes, and I have been toying with it	01:51
smoku	TSCHAKeee, yup. I got a bit disapointed too when I realized that I have the whole hildon-desktop suite running and I cannot really do much with. just a fancy app launcher... :/	01:51
lcuk	http://wiki.meego.com/Meego_Input_Methods	01:51
TSCHAKeee	but i can't get a version of handset that doesn't have major problems at present	01:51
TSCHAKeee	and i'm not talking about the apps	01:51
TSCHAKeee	i'm not gonna use them	01:51
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, get the latest daily-testing on your n900 and see	01:51
TSCHAKeee	i'm just talking the toolkit	01:51
TSCHAKeee	on the plus side... MTF is silky smooth on the joggler	01:52
TSCHAKeee	zip zip zippy	01:52
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TSCHAKeee	i am trying cordia, because i already have GTK windows made for orbiter	01:53
TSCHAKeee	and i'll see how it fares here	01:53
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TSCHAKeee	the end result is to at least have the joggler working as an orbiter	01:53
TSCHAKeee	and once the va-api support is ready	01:53
TSCHAKeee	to be able to use it as a full blown media director.	01:54
* lcuk wonders what an orbiter is		01:54
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: check privmsg	01:54
lcuk	i do not have one	01:54
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, I do not want to log into something, just a simple picture or explanation would suffice :$	01:55
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TSCHAKeee	lcuk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9_UJbhollc <-- Archos 9 running MeeGo Core and Orbiter	01:56
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lcuk	right, orbiter is your main console UI front end for controlling your house.	01:57
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lcuk	TSCHAKeee, do you have an ejector seat on your sofa?	01:58
TSCHAKeee	hahahaha	01:58
TSCHAKeee	no	01:58
TSCHAKeee	;)	01:58
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TSCHAKeee	orbiter will be rewritten using QML/QtQuick/Qt	01:59
TSCHAKeee	but until then, i am running what we have atop meego	01:59
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lcuk	TSCHAKeee, the limit of my home control: http://liqbase.net/liq.20101214_234800.liqremote_run.scr.png	01:59
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: cool :)	02:00
lcuk	tis simple and worked from the day I wrote it	02:00
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: if you want to try linuxmce sometime, stop by and we can help set up a system... ;)	02:00
lcuk	it does the job	02:00
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, an older version in gtk http://liqbase.net/liqremote_tiny.JPG	02:02
lcuk	that was the first app I wrote on my n810 :$	02:02
lcuk	or real one that stayed	02:02
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TSCHAKeee	lcuk: cool :)	02:04
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: we literally sat down with a blank sheet of paper, and asked the question, "what design, could control virtually every single piece of tech inside thehouse?"	02:04
TSCHAKeee	and it took two dev teams almost 10 years to build it	02:05
TSCHAKeee	it was a case of, huge imagination and we had no idea how hard it was going to be	02:05
TSCHAKeee	but we knew exactly what we wanted.	02:05
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, regarding home control, I just said "I wanna be able to pause the movie whilst I go for a pee"	02:06
TSCHAKeee	we do that. ;)	02:06
lcuk	and hacked together something in vb to press keys	02:06
lcuk	and bound it with an app on my other device	02:06
TSCHAKeee	we also pause the movie when a phone call comes in...you take the call..and when the call is finished, movie resumes. ;)	02:06
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lcuk	TSCHAKeee, clever	02:07
lcuk	but makes it pretty tricky to implement	02:07
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, btw, my first app was - i have a touch screen, i need to record what is written on it	02:08
TSCHAKeee	or, if you move from one room to another, if you have a way to tell the system you've moved (presence detection), the media, lighting, whatreer will follow you.	02:09
lcuk	so if it gets it wrong, you can control neighbours tv?	02:10
* lcuk amused self by pausing movie from another country		02:11
lcuk	whilst tracy was at home watching :O	02:11
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, how much effort is it for a person to fully configure home system at the moment?	02:13
ali1234	for "tv follows you are the house" a lot	02:13
ali1234	*around	02:14
lcuk	ok, one computer and a mobile device?	02:14
ali1234	well, configure it to do what?	02:15
ali1234	if you just want to pause the show... you only need lirc and configure it for your tv system	02:15
ali1234	that's about as easy as it gets, and that is still pretty hard	02:16
lcuk	indeed - i used to have an IR remote which worked on my computer and did the same keypress stuff (it was inline to the keyboard)	02:16
lcuk	that was closest to zeroconf	02:16
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lcuk	when I got a computer with only usb, I lost that capability, so I just sat a daemon on the network listening	02:17
lcuk	if I was going to do it now, I would use OSC, since that is multicast and can configure itself	02:18
lcuk	ie just ask for which remote listeners there are	02:18
ali1234	daemon on the network = how lirc works	02:18
lcuk	misread the blurb then:	02:19
lcuk	"LIRC is a package that allows you to decode and send infra-red signals of many (but not all) commonly used remote controls."	02:19
ali1234	right. it decodes them and then sends events over tcp to apps which support lirc, or, an app that turns them directly into X events	02:19
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lcuk	ali1234, that assumes the IR remote is somewhere in the mix though	02:20
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ali1234	well yeah	02:20
lcuk	my n900 and windows machine do not use any	02:20
ali1234	you could abuse how it works so that the events go directly out of 1 program and into lirc clients	02:21
ali1234	the thing is though, the market for this stuff is tiny	02:21
lcuk	who said anything about a market, i just wanted to pause movie without reaching for keyboard :P	02:22
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ali1234	get a dvd player then :)	02:22
ali1234	that's what everyone else does	02:22
TSCHAKeee	whoops sorry	02:22
ali1234	or sky+ or freesat or...	02:22
TSCHAKeee	was writing a usb stick, i/o froze while it happened	02:23
lcuk	ali1234, got one of those downstairs	02:23
lcuk	and dvd is in the computer	02:23
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lcuk	but really, no need to justify, this solution has been working happily for years	02:23
* lcuk has no issue with it		02:23
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: it does take some effort, but there is lots of help available.	02:23
ali1234	upnp was supposed to solve this	02:24
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: hahaa	02:24
* TSCHAKeee has read the UPNP and DLNA standards documents		02:24
ali1234	but it failed, partly because the standard was too vague but mostly because nobody actually cares	02:24
TSCHAKeee	they didn't solve shit.	02:24
ali1234	i know a few people who happily use upnp for serving media around their house	02:25
ali1234	but it took them ages to get it to work	02:25
TSCHAKeee	I am going to have to create a whole transcoding architecture	02:25
TSCHAKeee	so that we can dynamically bounce media to upnp devices at the right bitrate and format no matter the source	02:25
ali1234	right. the biggest problem is nobody can agree on codecs	02:26
lcuk	that surely has other more drastic drm issues	02:26
TSCHAKeee	yes	02:26
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TSCHAKeee	and not to mention bitrate hell	02:26
TSCHAKeee	oh wait, we also store DVD movies	02:26
TSCHAKeee	so that becomes a bigger headache	02:26
lcuk	VHS: Insert tape, play	02:27
ali1234	yes, people like that	02:27
CosmoHill	DRM is a large advert for DRM-Free	02:27
TSCHAKeee	heheh	02:27
TSCHAKeee	well one of the things we do too	02:27
* CosmoHill is very cranky / moody btw		02:27
TSCHAKeee	is legacy AV control	02:27
lcuk	Linux MCE: Insert DVD, Copy, Transcode, Transmit, Get past unffable trailers, get to entry, Play!	02:27
TSCHAKeee	so we can bounce any AV device to any other media device around the house dynamically	02:27
ali1234	insert tape, play vs plug in network cable, slowly scroll through a big list, press play, wait... wait... wait...	02:27
TSCHAKeee	whilst controlling it from any orbiter or remote control	02:28
TSCHAKeee	that's another big plus with us, the 15 remotes on the coffee table can go byebye, and unlike a Harmony remote, you don't have to flip modes	02:28
TSCHAKeee	the system understands how to control the devices, and how they're connected.. so it knows what it has to do to switch inputs etc automatically	02:29
ali1234	how can it control my (theoretical) tv or skybox?	02:29
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: Infra-red transciever, RS-232, or Ethernet, take your pick :)	02:29
ali1234	cool	02:29
lcuk	http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/screen_shot_2010_03_09_at_6.31.33_pm.png	02:29
TSCHAKeee	with the last two, they're bi-directional, so the system can react to changes that happen outside of LinuxMCE's control	02:30
ali1234	so it doesn't rely on you buying all compatible bits... that's the biggest failing of current systems	02:30
lcuk	looks more like my remote actually :$	02:30
* lcuk just realised he is a grandma		02:30
lcuk	with a beard.	02:30
TSCHAKeee	rofl	02:30
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: LinuxMCE is in essence a large message bus	02:30
TSCHAKeee	with interface devices to a whoooole bunch of other stuff	02:30
TSCHAKeee	and you can mix and match stuff together	02:31
TSCHAKeee	as needed	02:31
ali1234	is linuxmce gonna stomp out mythtv?	02:31
ali1234	because mythtv really sucks	02:31
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: no, we incorporate it for PVR functions, but we try to make it (1) easier to set up, and (2) provide a UI that works house wide, for it	02:31
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: we also support VDR too	02:31
TSCHAKeee	you pick which one you want to use in the setup wizard	02:31
ali1234	i must check this out	02:32
ali1234	it sounds pretty amazing	02:32
ali1234	VDR is the only thing harder to configure than myth :)	02:32
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: here, check this out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2176025602905109829	02:32
TSCHAKeee	that's a demo we did in a demo house back in 2007	02:32
TSCHAKeee	but its' still applicable for the most part	02:32
* lcuk heads off to the bath, then to watch tv		02:32
lcuk	gnite fellas \o	02:33
TSCHAKeee	later lcuk	02:33
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, hope you get your orbiter built	02:33
TSCHAKeee	thanks	02:33
ali1234	one thing though. i don't own a TV	02:33
ali1234	my mythbox is headless	02:34
ali1234	i use it exclusively over the web interface	02:34
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dahevos	hi everybody	02:36
dahevos	i'm new on MeeGo OS and i have a problem with my QQ account : impossible to login =(	02:36
dahevos	on IM, i add a new account (QQ account)	02:36
dahevos	i put my personnal info and .... doesn't work, i change the name of client version as i see on the web from qq2005 to qq2008	02:37
dahevos	but didn't work	02:37
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ali1234	lol, according to that video linux mce only needs "three buttons" - but it's three buttons plus OK and cancel (so 5 buttons then) plus a remote control with an accelerometer in it	02:39
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: no	02:39
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: that's just one remote among many	02:39
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TSCHAKeee	ali1234: no matter what you select, you still have access to every feature.	02:40
ali1234	that does look quite good though. i guess it's designed for wiimote?	02:40
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: we designed ui2 for the gyration mouse and media center remotes (and we had a custom one designed for us, but it is no longer made).	02:40
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TSCHAKeee	ali1234: I have wii remote support on my list, but I want to solve some issues first before doing it	02:40
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: originally we designed the system to be controlled by bluetooth cell phone	02:41
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ali1234	the guy in this video has way too many TVs	02:52
TSCHAKeee	again, this was a demo house that we set up in Seattle	02:53
TSCHAKeee	the voiceover was done by a voiceover actor	02:53
ali1234	you can't move in that house without tripping over a TV or some AV equipment	02:54
ali1234	even after linuxmce was installed :)	02:54
TSCHAKeee	smartass	02:54
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ali1234	impressive	03:01
ali1234	but massively over the top for what i need	03:02
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TSCHAKeee	you people have no imagination :P	03:06
ali1234	TSCHAKeee: it seems like that video is the end point of what meego is trying to achieve	03:06
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: ;)	03:07
TSCHAKeee	you noticed that too? ;)	03:07
ali1234	how much of linuxmce is based on open standards?	03:08
TSCHAKeee	well, as much as we could make, none of it is hidden or proprietary	03:08
TSCHAKeee	we had to invent a lot of things	03:08
ali1234	(and by open standards i mean things that can be reimplemented from the documentation)	03:08
TSCHAKeee	because at the time equivalents did not exist	03:08
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TSCHAKeee	Quim asked me to submit a paper for the next meego conference to speak about it.. i'd love to.	03:10
ali1234	i've heard of linuxmce before but i didn't realise it was so crazy	03:11
ali1234	i thought it was just another media focused distro	03:11
ali1234	so yeah that sounds like a good idea to me	03:11
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ali1234	that video also reminds me of those "this is what you'll be using in the future" videos that you always see, except it's actually real	03:12
TSCHAKeee	that's what inspired us	03:13
TSCHAKeee	i grew up watching star trek	03:13
ali1234	right, just add voice control and you've got star trek	03:13
TSCHAKeee	been there done that	03:13
TSCHAKeee	;)	03:13
TSCHAKeee	but the initial work i did on it, made me realize how much work was left to do	03:13
TSCHAKeee	the hardest part is coming up with a grammar and context lexical model	03:14
TSCHAKeee	because now with devices like the kinect	03:14
TSCHAKeee	we have a reliable microphone array	03:14
TSCHAKeee	for cheap	03:14
TSCHAKeee	something i had to pay 6 figures for in the past	03:14
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ali1234	i think good voice control will be the next thing after tablets (so 4-6 years)	03:18
ali1234	and then robots :)	03:18
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TSCHAKeee	smoku: massive graphical corruption on the joggler	03:24
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ali1234	http://twitter.com/brandonwatson/status/27508118367772672	03:42
ali1234	microsoft trying too hard to be cool again	03:43
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skydevil	Hi every one !	03:52
skydevil	Is there anybody ?	03:53
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berndhs	433 of them	04:04
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smoku	TSCHAKeee, screenshot?	11:36
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wathek	zalbisser_, Hi	11:50
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thiago	wathek: Monday, not Sunday	12:44
wathek	thiago, lol zalbisser_ and ddenis works for Nokia ?	12:45
thiago	yes	12:45
wathek	ah ! thiago I dunno but I think that the QGesture and QGestureRecognizer parts are not well documented	12:45
wathek	am I wrong ?	12:45
thiago	I don't know. I've never read the docs nor tried to use them.	12:46
wathek	thiago, huh ? how do you do ?	12:46
thiago	how do I do what?	12:46
wathek	thiago, without docs	12:46
wathek	thiago, you read the code ?	12:46
thiago	usually, yes	12:47
wathek	thiago, I see ;)	12:47
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thiago	in most cases, the code completion from Qt Creator is enough	12:49
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timeless_w7ip	anyone here familiar w/ gitorious?	14:29
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lcuk	to what degree timeless_w7ip - many people use it	14:35
smoku	does connman use different d-bus notification than network manager?	14:40
smoku	my evolution "thinks" I'm always offline	14:40
Stskeeps	smoku: i thought there was a stamdard for this	14:40
Stskeeps	freedesktop.org one or something	14:41
smoku	same here...	14:41
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smoku	but evolution worked fine on 1.1 but not on 1.2	14:42
Stskeeps	might be a bug then	14:42
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timeless_w7ip	wah, my cron reports are being marked as spam	16:26
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norayr	ppl, at the meego.com I found out that I need to ask in IRC in order to get an OBS account. However, I guess that's not a public OBS, but intended for the core developers. Are there any public OBS so I can try to build with it my apps, and prepare ports of FLOSS software?	17:11
thiago	build.pub.meego.com	17:12
Stskeeps	norayr: build.pub.meego.com is currently ask-to-get but you generally get it if you want to make floss :) build.meego.com is for core committers	17:14
Stskeeps	which you need to use bugzilla for	17:14
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* alterego wonders how to imitate ofono on a desktop machine		17:25
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norayr	Stskeeps: okay, how do I get a decent build.pub.meego.com account ?	17:32
smoku	norayr, ping lbt	17:33
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norayr	lbt: cannot register account at build.pub.meego.com	17:36
norayr	lbt: OBS Web Interface Error:Error Details:Errorcode: unknown	17:36
norayr	Message: undefined method `create' for nil:NilClass	17:36
wathek	thiago, I'm reading the source of QGesture and QGestureRecognizer I don't understand what's the d_func()	17:36
wathek	thiago, it seems that it's a QObject function	17:36
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smoku	norayr, you need to use your meego.com account	17:39
smoku	norayr, all meego services are integrated to use single user/pass	17:40
norayr	okay, thanks :)	17:40
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smoku	norayr, but you need to ping lbt to give your account rights to use community obs	17:41
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norayr	smoku: I see, because it does not let me to login	17:42
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anis_	http://informatiq-help.blogspot.com/	17:58
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anis_	key kaspersky http://informatiq-help.blogspot.com/2011/03/kaspersky-lab.html	18:30
CosmoHill	mmm, spam	18:31
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thiago	wathek: d_func() returns the private class	18:38
wathek	thiago, ah ! ok thank you so much !	18:39
thiago	e.g.: QObjectPrivate d_func() { return reinterpret_cast<QObjectPrivate >(d_ptr); }	18:39
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wathek	thiago, I see thank you so much	18:52
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smoku	is it a known problem with SDL, that in fullscreen mode the touchscreen does not work?	19:25
smoku	it registers clicks, but does not move the mouse cursor	19:25
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wathek	how would you do to recognize a circle gesture ?	19:48
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lcuk	wathek, clockwise or anti clockwise?	19:52
wathek	lcuk, let say clockwise	19:52
lcuk	at which level of the OS?	19:53
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wathek	lcuk, C++/Qt my application let say	19:53
lcuk	afaik, this should give you some hints http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/gestures-overview.html	19:54
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wathek	lcuk, ok thank you but that link doesn't help	19:59
wathek	:(	19:59
lcuk	wathek, which part does not fit with "I want to make my qt app recognise gestures -> here is the gesture overview/documentation for qt"	20:00
wathek	lcuk, my problem is how to tell my application how to recognize a circle	20:01
ali1234	"To create a new recognizer, you need to subclass QGestureRecognizer to create a custom recognizer class. There is one virtual function that you must reimplement and two others that can be reimplemented as required."	20:02
wathek	ali1234, the problem isn't how to create	20:03
berndhs	ali1234: perhaps what wathek is looking for is how to recoginze motion, and how to recoginze that the motion is a circle	20:03
wathek	that's that	20:03
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lcuk	well approaches to actually recognising different gestures based on strokes may take numerous paths	20:04
lcuk	but the same principles have been thought about and implemented for the other gesture classes (for pinch and swipe etc)	20:04
lcuk	and numerous programs over the years have implemented different ways to work out gestures	20:05
* lcuk uses a grid approach personally		20:05
* CosmoHill giggles		20:05
berndhs	lcuk: yes there is even archeological evidence that it has been done :)	20:06
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lcuk	take a grid based on the entire stroke area so far, mark it into a grid, assign letters to each grid reference, then build a string of all the grid elements the stroke passes through	20:06
CosmoHill	in 6 lines of code I buggered safari, this is of course beaten by turning popup blocker back on	20:06
lcuk	berndhs, yes, historically, gestures are even recognisable in ASCII	20:07
lcuk	.\|..	20:07
lcuk	but anyway, pork roast is actually ready	20:07
* lcuk runs away		20:07
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* alterego is having port stir fry with noodles :)		20:08
alterego	s/port/pork	20:08
berndhs	how does one turn on error messages in qml javascript ?	20:09
ali1234	there is an option for qmlviewer, and i think an environmental variable	20:10
berndhs	i'm not using qmlviewer :)	20:11
ali1234	then use the environment variable	20:12
TSCHAKeee	is anyone attempting to hack around with the tablet ux/use stuff from its repos?	20:12
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berndhs	any idea which environment variable ?	20:12
ali1234	QML_IMPORT_TRACE	20:13
berndhs	thank you	20:13
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ali1234	TSCHAKeee: i had a go, the code is not very friendly for modifications	20:14
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: how bad?	20:14
ali1234	well it's not deliberately obfuscated	20:15
ali1234	it's just like... they hacked it together in 5 minutes... you know?	20:15
ali1234	so changing things has unexpected results/consequences all over the place	20:15
ali1234	anyway it is very easy to get started on hacking it	20:16
ali1234	it's just difficult to do anything useful	20:16
ali1234	so check it out for yourself	20:16
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alterego	Annoyingly the favorite flag doesn't seem to work in QtMobility	20:20
alterego	For contacts that is ;)	20:20
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alterego	Time to investigate me thinks	20:23
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TSCHAKeee	ali1234: they were able to make a demo that looks good in 5 minutes...	20:25
TSCHAKeee	ali1234: yet the handset people can't seem to do that after ... more than a year? :/	20:25
TSCHAKeee	i'm having debian flashbacks.	20:26
thiago	2	20:27
alterego	No one asked them to do a demo? :P	20:30
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TSCHAKeee	seriously, what is with all the regressions in meegotouch?... it doesn't look like it's moved very far at all	20:32
alterego	It's being removed anyway	20:32
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, there have been some big movements in other places too	20:33
alterego	What regression/s are you talking about specificall now?	20:33
TSCHAKeee	alterego: silly things like orange in the background of meegotouch menus, the whole mcompositor stack crashing when i try to switch applications.	20:34
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TSCHAKeee	I just want a touch stack I can stably build on	20:34
TSCHAKeee	now it looks like i will have to roll my own from scratch with Qt Quick	20:34
TSCHAKeee	or whatever you guys are calling it this week	20:35
alterego	It's QtQuick/QML	20:35
alterego	QML is specifically the ecma style language.	20:35
TSCHAKeee	yes	20:35
alterego	QtQuick is the whoe framework	20:35
TSCHAKeee	i am aware of it.	20:35
TSCHAKeee	i'm making a rather poignant point that the ground has shifted, several times	20:35
mihero	doesn't the qt quick allready include qml	20:35
TSCHAKeee	yes	20:35
mihero	as a definition	20:36
TSCHAKeee	this is absolutely ridiculous	20:36
alterego	I think ground shifting is better now than later when there are real devices :P	20:36
TSCHAKeee	how is a hardware vendor supposed to deal with this?	20:36
TSCHAKeee	at this rate, they'll just use MeeGo Core	20:36
alterego	And MTF should have never existed	20:36
javispedro	don't worry, we'll soon move to the meego webruntime ;P	20:36
TSCHAKeee	and as a researcher, I'm trying to build real products, on no budget	20:36
TSCHAKeee	and while I love MeeGo's assembling method (mic2)	20:37
* thiago can only say "I understand"		20:37
TSCHAKeee	i can't seem to get a stable platform to start.	20:37
TSCHAKeee	ok, i'm done venting	20:37
TSCHAKeee	i am sorry.	20:37
TSCHAKeee	i've been where you guys are, and I understand too	20:37
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TSCHAKeee	(and I'm rather mad you guys removed XFCE)	20:38
alterego	still in the repos ..	20:39
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TSCHAKeee	no, it's not, i looked.	20:39
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alterego	Oh well .	20:41
vgrade	TSCHAKeee, evening, http://repo.pub.meego.com/home%3a/auke%3a/	20:42
TSCHAKeee	thank you	20:43
TSCHAKeee	i just need SOMETHING lightweight to build off of, that is NETWM compliant	20:43
TSCHAKeee	that doesn't try to futz with the windows (Orbiter handles all this itself)	20:43
TSCHAKeee	while it works just fine on netbook	20:44
TSCHAKeee	it shifts downward on the joggler the width of the toolbar	20:44
TSCHAKeee	i was able to make the toolbar go away, but it still persists	20:44
TSCHAKeee	and i couldn't get handset to behave well enough to run orbiter in the first place.	20:45
vgrade	TSCHAKeee, same ux on netbook and joggler?	20:45
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: yup, netbook	20:45
TSCHAKeee	which i will have to abandon anyway, because even minimal install ,is too big for the 1GB emmc on the joggler	20:45
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vgrade	TSCHAKeee, even with a compressed fs?	20:46
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: I also tried running cordia on the joggler.. looks okay for about 2 seconds...then when I press the menu button, massive corruption.	20:46
TSCHAKeee	vgrade: i could do it with compressed fs, but would rather not do that if i can help it... i will do it if i have to though.	20:47
alterego	Sounds like you need a custom ks file to weed out all the bloat	20:47
TSCHAKeee	yup	20:47
alterego	And generate your own image	20:47
TSCHAKeee	and as soon as i get what i want	20:47
TSCHAKeee	i will start dashing out what i don't need	20:48
TSCHAKeee	i already am doing that	20:48
alterego	Cool	20:48
TSCHAKeee	i need something with a wifi app and a virtual keyboard that works	20:48
TSCHAKeee	looks like i will have to write both	20:48
TSCHAKeee	i did see the fabled MTF virtual keyboard on the 20110221 weekly of handset	20:49
TSCHAKeee	but it corrupted the rest of my display in the process	20:49
TSCHAKeee	#(@%@#( emgd	20:49
lcuk	TSCHAKeee, EMGD works better now than it did previously	20:52
TSCHAKeee	yes it does	20:52
TSCHAKeee	has anyone tried VA API?	20:52
lcuk	and vgrade has had afaik handset and tablet builds both on the joggler	20:52
TSCHAKeee	i know	20:53
TSCHAKeee	I have two devices here that are Z series atoms, that...golly gee, i would love to be able to build my software for. ;)	20:54
lcuk	why can't you?>	20:55
lcuk	since your app is almost a WM itself, can you not just run it on x11?	20:55
lcuk	or are there specific requirements	20:55
alterego	He needs NETWM compliance apparently, so he probably runs other apps.	20:55
TSCHAKeee	yup	20:56
alterego	Or needs to, I imagine he has some launcher functionality.	20:56
lcuk	well that makes sense of course	20:56
TSCHAKeee	such as media players, a sip phone	20:56
alterego	Right	20:56
TSCHAKeee	it's all transparent	20:56
TSCHAKeee	but orbiter needs to order stuff at the right time	20:56
lcuk	there are many apps required for a full system	20:56
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lcuk	how does netbook biuld run on joggler?	20:57
lcuk	since it is x86	20:57
TSCHAKeee	when we started writing this system, a lot of stuff that most people take for granted now on F/OSS systems simply didn't exist.. so we had to invent a lot of stuff.	20:57
TSCHAKeee	lcuk: it runs well, but the lack of a virtual keyboard makes it a pain.	20:57
TSCHAKeee	and I suspect mutter behaviour has changed recently	20:58
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TSCHAKeee	because even with my app requesting full screen, and setting every WM hint in the book to "LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE!"	20:59
TSCHAKeee	the toolbar remains	20:59
TSCHAKeee	i removed the myzone and other toolbar bits, the toolbar, disappeared...	20:59
lcuk	hm	21:00
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lcuk	the toolbar should remain	21:00
TSCHAKeee	but it still has an offset where the toolbar was	21:00
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lcuk	it is part of the OS	21:00
lcuk	but its visibility vanishes	21:00
TSCHAKeee	it's part of mutter...yeah.	21:00
TSCHAKeee	yes,	21:00
TSCHAKeee	that's what I meant	21:00
lcuk	so you can get fullscreen windows happily	21:00
* lcuk does not see problem		21:00
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ali1234	TSCHAKeee: well, they didn't actually write it in 5 minutes... the concept has been around since last june... it's just that the code looks that way :)	21:03
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Xcore	Hello	21:03
Xcore	Is there someone?	21:04
thiago	no	21:04
thiago	:-)	21:04
Xcore	Funny	21:04
Xcore	I have some questions	21:04
Xcore	i m a n900 user,	21:04
Xcore	right now , i m on my laptop ( debian )	21:05
Xcore	anyway	21:05
Xcore	i want to know when somecompany will release a mobile with meego	21:05
lbt	rofl	21:05
timoph	lbt: o/	21:06
thiago	you'll know when they announce it	21:06
lbt	hey timoph	21:06
dm8tbr	lbt: \o/	21:06
Xcore	if no one will release one, i will be obligated to purchase a new n900 ( as my next mobile)	21:06
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lbt	just trying to get my body back to UK time :)	21:06
Xcore	n950	21:06
Xcore	they announced it, but do you still trust nokia?	21:06
lbt	Xcore: yep... sanest option .... and "no"	21:07
thiago	no one announced an N950	21:07
Xcore	they did	21:07
Xcore	are u reading news	21:07
thiago	link on nokia.com ?	21:07
Xcore	thiago, nokia announced the n950 with meego	21:07
* lbt waits for thiago to say "didn't"		21:07
Xcore	wait thiago	21:07
lcuk	Xcore, no one of the Nokia executives said there is a device. that is not the same as a product announcement.	21:08
alterego	Okay, so this goes right down to Qt Mobility, not specificall the QML bindings, that's a bit more of a relief :)	21:08
thiago	there will be a device	21:08
timoph	lbt: did you talk at somepoint about starting openmeego etc.?	21:08
* alterego submits a bug report		21:08
ali1234	they certainly have not confirmed it is a phone, not even unnofficially	21:08
lcuk	\o lbt	21:08
thiago	but it's not announced, nor is its name publish	21:08
timoph	lbt: referring to http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2011-March/003731.html	21:08
Xcore	http://news.google.fr/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_0_0_t&usg=AFQjCNE1Jx45L6Mr53JNsDILAbPsFlXcIQ&did=2361090fed9b466d&cid=17593868010411&ei=s9tzTbj8CNzKjAf3sN60Aw&rt=SEARCH&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsden.net%2Fmeego-powered-nokia-n9-will-be-replaced-by-n950-6982%2F	21:08
lbt	timoph: no - we were all locked in a room doing meego.com rebuilds	21:08
timoph	:)	21:08
thiago	Xcore: can you please post the link to the news announced on a nokia.com PR page?	21:08
Xcore	http://twc.tc/?a=ebahoze ( short url )	21:09
* thiago points out that there was also no device announced as N9		21:09
thiago	Xcore: what's that webpage?	21:09
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lbt	timoph: that was all part of the pre-ex-nokia TSG planning	21:09
Xcore	with keybord	21:09
alterego	Where should I file Qt Mobility bugs?	21:09
thiago	twitter cash?	21:09
Xcore	keyboard	21:09
Xcore	thiago,	21:10
Xcore	click on the link	21:10
thiago	Xcore: no	21:10
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thiago	it doesn't redirect to nokia.com	21:10
Xcore	this is a short url	21:10
Xcore	here is the big url	21:10
Xcore	http://www.newsden.net/meego-powered-nokia-n9-will-be-replaced-by-n950-6982/	21:10
thiago	that's not nokia.com	21:10
Xcore	ur want the link from nokia?	21:10
thiago	yes	21:10
Xcore	wait	21:10
ljp	alterego: bugreports.qt.nokia.com	21:10
thiago	Xcore: you do realise I sent you on an impossible mission, right?	21:12
ali1234	would be funny if he found it	21:12
Xcore	yes	21:12
Xcore	u did	21:12
ljp	it was only Rich Green blabbing	21:13
Xcore	but wait please	21:13
Xcore	if i found a tweet	21:13
* dm8tbr gets moar popcorn		21:13
Xcore	on their twitter	21:13
Xcore	is it ok	21:13
Xcore	?	21:13
thiago	whose twitter?	21:13
Xcore	nokia's twitter	21:13
lbt	Xcore: it's highly likely that the next nokia phone will be a decent base for meego. The N900 already is.	21:13
lbt	what more do you need?	21:13
Xcore	do u have installed meego on ur n900?	21:14
lbt	The one after that... not so much.	21:14
thiago	Xcore: let me put it this way: I work for Nokia. If a device were announced, I'd know.	21:14
Xcore	maybe n900 has not enough ram for meego	21:14
ali1234	confirmation that it is actually a phone, and not a tablet, netbook, stb, or any of the other possible meego related devices that nokia have made in the past	21:14
thiago	the only thing that was announced is that there will be a device	21:14
thiago	details are not known	21:14
Xcore	i see	21:14
Xcore	i want to develop for meego	21:15
Xcore	qt	21:15
ljp	unless Rich Green counts as announcement	21:15
Xcore	but	21:15
ngharo	Xcore: there are dev builds for the n900 now	21:15
ali1234	i don't think the problem is a technical one ie lack of a development platform	21:15
Xcore	QT	21:15
thiago	Xcore: Qt	21:16
ali1234	the question developers have is "is this a gigantic waste of my time?"	21:16
Xcore	yes, that s one of my questions	21:16
thiago	we obviously don't think it is	21:16
Xcore	does it worth	21:16
Xcore	ok	21:16
Xcore	so you are still optimistic	21:16
thiago	yes	21:17
thiago	I'm devoting 100% of my work time, plus a considerable part of my private time, to ensuring that	21:17
* ljp still works on meego		21:17
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Xcore	tell nokia that we need a double sim	21:18
ali1234	lol no	21:18
Xcore	on their next mobile	21:18
ljp	Xcore: get 2 phones :)	21:18
thiago	Xcore: I'm pretty sure that's planned	21:19
ali1234	i don't understand the whole double sim thing	21:19
Xcore	i hav e 2 already	21:19
ali1234	what if someone calls you on the sim you are not currently using?	21:19
Xcore	thanks thiago	21:19
thiago	ali1234: it's for people who can get advantageous plans with 2 SIMs	21:19
Xcore	u can get call on both sims	21:19
thiago	like "free 500 minutes to call someone on the same network"	21:19
Xcore	samsung has a quadruple sim mobile	21:19
ali1234	i have never seen a dual sim phone that lets you use both sims at the same time	21:19
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* thiago has 2 SIMs for the same phone line		21:19
smoku	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgx7JMoIjIc - Bos Wars on MeeGo	21:19
ali1234	the only ones i have seen, you have to reboot the phone to switch sim	21:19
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Xcore	that s not funny ali1234	21:20
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thiago	there are some china-made phones with dual sim slots	21:21
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thiago	I saw one that looked like a Nokia E71 and even had written the name on it	21:21
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Xcore	this meego table is a packard bell?	21:21
thiago	with different software, of course	21:21
Xcore	tablet	21:21
Xcore	bos wars	21:21
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lcuk	smoku, please specify which build you post links for, we know it is possible to run more apps on the big tablets and stuff, however there is a certain art in making same apps run well on handheld!	21:23
smoku	lcuk, this is ported from N900 ;P	21:24
lcuk	does it run on my meego n900?	21:24
smoku	well... it was ported for N900, and now just repackaged	21:24
Xcore	Mobile Business Briefing blog report, who has mentioned that Nokia has increased salary and bonuses for the developers and engineers, who are working in the MeeGo area in order to maintain progress on the first MeeGo Smartphone, dubbed the N950.	21:25
Xcore	Thiago, can you confirm this ?	21:26
Xcore	increase of salary and bonuses	21:26
* thiago will not confirm or deny		21:26
TSCHAKeee	Thiago works on Qt, just so you know. This does not concern him.	21:26
lbt	Xcore: I thought you wanted to develop for meego ?	21:26
ljp	increase salary and bonuses? ha. good one	21:26
Xcore	yes	21:26
Xcore	yes i want	21:26
Xcore	but i want to be sure i m not wasting my time	21:27
lbt	Xcore: this is OT for #meego.... please go bother some nokia forum instead :)	21:27
ali1234	Xcore: you won't get an unbiased answer here anyway	21:27
Stskeeps	Xcore: rumours in #meego-bar please, Intel seems to be pushing MeeGo quite hard and Nokia is just one player in MeeGo	21:27
Xcore	as far as i know, there r only intel, amd and nokia	21:28
lbt	hi Stskeeps... missed your moo earlier (or yesterday)	21:28
Stskeeps	Xcore: well, there's more than that if you look closer :)	21:28
Xcore	Super	21:29
Xcore	happy to hear that	21:29
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* TSCHAKeee senses Xcore is yet another troll.		21:30
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vgrade	TSCHAKeee, re VA API, see this latest commit, http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-commits/2011-March/017687.html	21:58
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vgrade	lcuk, alterego, I noticed this while looking at the widelands video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS2EliYNO8M&feature=related	22:09
lcuk	heh	22:10
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alterego	Hah	22:12
alterego	So I don't need to do it then, presumably :P	22:12
lcuk	alterego, since now we can have comparison - video please	22:12
vgrade	I'm not sure I would have the patience to use it	22:13
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alterego	Heh	22:13
lcuk	vgrade, not everything is for use! it is the ambience.	22:13
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vgrade	question, why use 999 as the emergency phone number when it takes longest to dial?	22:14
alterego	Hahah	22:14
alterego	Well, in ye' ole days	22:15
alterego	You'd get an operator anyway.	22:15
lcuk	vgrade, ensuring it was not accidental was what I recall	22:15
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lcuk	bakelite theme would suite the rest of the device	22:15
valianholt	Hello all! Anyone already tried to port Exult (Ultima VII engine) from Maemo to MeeGo?	22:16
alterego	Yeah, prank calls were well low too.	22:16
alterego	You needed to be commited to call them	22:16
valianholt	it's one of the best things on N900	22:16
lcuk	the dial distance and speed of spring back was required	22:16
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lcuk	and self regularing	22:16
alterego	And I think there was a emergency button, or operator button that you could press too.	22:16
lcuk	since telephones sent the pip things	22:16
Robot101	wikipedia says it was easy to implement as free on the payphones in the 30s	22:17
alterego	Yeah, pulse dialing	22:17
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lcuk	hey Robot101 \o you mean the emergency number stuff?	22:17
Robot101	yes	22:18
lcuk	cool	22:19
* lcuk makes a note for when time travelling		22:19
lcuk	Robot101, I understand all this sort of logic regarding numbers has to be implemented inside proper dialer component.	22:22
lcuk	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_telephone_number#Emergency_numbers	22:23
lcuk	so many combinations!	22:23
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berndhs	gibraltar has 3 different emergency numbers	22:31
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Robot101	lcuk: the SIM has a list of emergency numbers	22:44
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Robot101	its basically about identifying when emergency calls are going on as early as possible, and ensuring eg the best battery life, stopping everything else running, protecting the key parts from the OOM killer, etc	22:45
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mihero	emergency call has to work even without sim for my understanding	22:46
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Robot101	but, the network tells you after connecting a call that it's an emergency call - so knowing the numbers is just for allowing them to be dialed from the lock screen, and detecting /sooner/ that it's an emergency call	22:46
Robot101	there's also a hardcoded list of numbers which is used as well as the SIM list	22:46
mihero	yep	22:47
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lcuk	Robot101, a whole lot of small sensible steps	22:47
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lcuk	whilst on this kind of topic, something everyone should fill in on their phones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_case_of_emergency	22:52
thiago	in Brazil, people do the opposite	22:53
thiago	you won't find such a number, nor will you find "dad", "mom" or "home"	22:53
lcuk	thiago, do you know the reason?	22:54
thiago	yeah	22:54
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thiago	pretend-kidnappings	22:55
lcuk	Robot101, the ICE stuff originated in Cambridge according to the links :)	22:55
lcuk	eep	22:55
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Robot101	lcuk: to me it doesn't work because all my phones have auto keylocks	22:55
thiago	stolen phones, then the robbers call the family and demand money	22:55
thiago	since the other person has lost their phone, they cannot be contacted	22:55
lcuk	Robot101, it says in the article that phone manufacturers are now allowing a slight way around this	22:55
lcuk	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_case_of_emergency#Locked_phones	22:56
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CosmoHill	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_case_of_emergency	23:06
CosmoHill	lcuk: oh you bitch	23:06
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lcuk	CosmoHill, of course	23:09
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valianholt	is there support for external USB DACs in MeeGo?	23:24
valianholt	and also USB OTG support please? :)	23:24
CosmoHill	valianholt: are these devices supported by linux?	23:25
valianholt	yes, I suppose by kernel	23:25
valianholt	eg. uDAC	23:25
valianholt	http://www.blinkenlights.ch/ccms/misc/nuforce_udac.html	23:26
CosmoHill	i think the easiest way to find out would be to boot meego and plug it in	23:26
valianholt	but possible to try with N900?	23:27
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CosmoHill	I'm not sure where you can plug in a USB DAC on a N900	23:27
timeless_w7ip	lcuk; to more than that extent	23:27
valianholt	there is partial USB HOST support for N900 if the device is not above 100 mA	23:27
valianholt	but I am not sure how about USB host on N900 with MeeGo	23:28
timeless_w7ip	i'm trying to understand if a given rev exists in a repo	23:28
timeless_w7ip	amongst other questions	23:28
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lcuk	timeless_w7ip, rev? tags and branches can be checked can't they?	23:32
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CosmoHill	valianholt: I'm pretty sure I can say that nobdy has ever though of that	23:34
valianholt	I see, ok thanks	23:34
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CosmoHill	I still say give it a try and see what happens	23:34
valianholt	because, even if I didn't try, I am pretty sure that external USB DAC is possible with N900	23:34
valianholt	ok	23:34
valianholt	on Maemo	23:34
valianholt	with low voltage of course :) or dedicated battery	23:35
valianholt	which can make from N900 one of the best portable audio players :)	23:35
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valianholt	still talking about http://exult.sourceforge.net/	23:51
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