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| lcuk | idk smoku | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
| lcuk | berndhs, there always is, but if the open bugs are not checked and completed when the closed stuff comes to be released it will not work as expected? | 00:06 |
| berndhs | its just more missing information, it can look like an "open" bug is ignored, when it may be fixed in a "closed" part | 00:07 |
| lcuk | then its not fixed. | 00:08 |
| berndhs | and then the fix timing can be determined by when related "closed" things are released | 00:08 |
| berndhs | but this is just speculation | 00:08 |
| lcuk | this is why with bugs you find simple lowest common denominator | 00:09 |
| lcuk | and reproduce bug in open system | 00:09 |
| lcuk | or make a test case which does | 00:09 |
| lcuk | it eases later regression testing | 00:09 |
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| lcuk | see bug 10532 | 00:10 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10532 nor, Medium, ---, yan.i.li, NEW, No audio input from microphone on meegoconf netbook | 00:10 |
| lcuk | when I first heard about it | 00:10 |
| smoku | I thaught that MeeGo is not going to repeat Maemo closed vs. open bugzilla disaster, and all official components are going to be developed in the open only. | 00:10 |
| lcuk | I heard from people who had skype or other complex methods | 00:10 |
| lcuk | lowest common denominator is going to the open source control panel and looking at the VU meter it has for verification | 00:10 |
| berndhs | and I thought it was just my computer that didnt do audio :) | 00:11 |
| lcuk | smoku, yes that is the intent | 00:11 |
| lcuk | berndhs, VOTE | 00:11 |
| lcuk | it got its importance raised already | 00:11 |
| lcuk | its a release blocker | 00:11 |
| lcuk | but it needs to be fixed | 00:11 |
| lcuk | for ALL applications to work | 00:12 |
| berndhs | yeah including mine :) | 00:12 |
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| lcuk | berndhs, whats your project? | 00:32 |
| lcuk | and does it have meego rpm available? | 00:32 |
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| berndhs | I have "egalite" which is in my home:earthling repo | 00:33 |
| berndhs | and some other stuff | 00:34 |
| berndhs | its based on another library for XMPP now, I want to re-base it on telepathy | 00:34 |
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| lcuk | how would earthlings actually gain access to your earthling repository | 00:35 |
| lcuk | and are there any other interesting amusing things in there that would be helpful | 00:36 |
| berndhs | its not public ? | 00:36 |
| berndhs | https://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3Aearthling | 00:37 |
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| smoku | When you create a .spec for the rpm package there is a "Group:" field there. Where do I find a list of valid values for MeeGo? | 00:37 |
| lcuk | berndhs, the reason why I ask | 00:37 |
| lcuk | when people in maemo mention projects | 00:38 |
| lcuk | theres nice web sharable links to information | 00:38 |
| lcuk | in obs, people merely give repo reference by name :) | 00:38 |
| lcuk | it makes it less useful | 00:38 |
| berndhs | i though home:earthling was the name of it :) | 00:38 |
| lcuk | indeed | 00:38 |
| berndhs | i have websites for all this stuff on sourceforge | 00:39 |
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| berndhs | http://berndhs.users.sourceforge.net/ | 00:39 |
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| lcuk | cool beans berndhs | 00:40 |
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| berndhs | typically something in the availabel tools annoys me, and I go make one myself | 00:41 |
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| * lcuk nods | 00:42 | |
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| lcuk | berndhs, how long have you been Qt hacker? (seems a while) | 00:43 |
| berndhs | a year maybe, I forget | 00:44 |
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| fdv | Hi. I'm trying to follow the recipe found on the wiki for running meego on an n900. I've installed the image to an mmc and managed to send over the kernel using flasher. now, all I get is "Waiting for root device /dev/mmcblk0p1". Anybody have any idea as to what goes wrong? | 01:10 |
| fdv | (the version is meego-handset-armv7l-n900-1.1.80.11.20101221) | 01:10 |
| fdv | what file system does the image have? | 01:11 |
| dm8tbr | fdv: you closed the back of the device? | 01:11 |
| fdv | dm8tbr: yep, and when I open or close it, I get a message | 01:12 |
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| dm8tbr | you wrote the image to the raw device? | 01:13 |
| xMOLATZEN_DUx | hi | 01:13 |
| xMOLATZEN_DUx | does meego have repos? | 01:14 |
| fdv | dm8tbr: yep | 01:14 |
| fdv | could be something wrong with the card or image, I guess, is there a way to verify that the image / card looks ok? | 01:14 |
| xMOLATZEN_DUx | whem will meego tablet will see the light? | 01:14 |
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| fdv | btw, all checksums came out all right | 01:27 |
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| smoku | When you create a .spec for the rpm package there is a "Group:" field there. Where do I find a list of valid values for MeeGo? | 01:43 |
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| fdv | dm8tbr: pebkac. I messed up and only wrote the image to the first partition of the mmc. thanks for your input | 02:08 |
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| lcuk | i find it remarkable that the nokia devices used in the tron movie were using symbian and not the hackers favourite linux/meego o_O | 03:44 |
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| * lcuk wants meego tron ux now | 03:48 | |
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| toadpole | hey, do you think meego will run fine on this: http://www.samsung.com/in/consumer/pc-peripherals-printer/notebook/netbook/NP-N148-DP05IN/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&tab=specification | 08:57 |
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| toadpole | everything else should be fine, i'm just a bit iffy on whether the Intel GMA3150 graphics will work with meego | 09:10 |
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| NAVEENGF | play games chat online make money http://letikfor.webs.com/ | 10:10 |
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| NAVEENGF | make money while chating click here http://letikfor.webs.com/ | 10:12 |
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| NAVEENGF | make money while chating click here http://letikfor.webs.com/ | 10:15 |
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| NAVEENGF | make money while chating click here http://letikfor.webs.com/ | 10:17 |
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| xscroll | is there a phone that runs meego yet? | 11:09 |
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| dm8tbr | xscroll: the n900 is as close as it gets currently. there is no meego designed phone yet though. | 11:20 |
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| xscroll | dm8tbr: thanks, I'll take a look | 11:24 |
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| sivang | morning | 11:58 |
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| TrackerDPP | hello all | 12:18 |
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| smoku | When you create a .spec for the rpm package there is a "Group:" field there. Where do I find a list of valid values for MeeGo? | 12:19 |
| Sage | those are listed in wiki | 12:19 |
| smoku | looks like my search-fu is weak, because I couldn't find these in wiki | 12:20 |
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| Sage | http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Guidelines#Group_Tag | 12:20 |
| Sage | there | 12:20 |
| smoku | Sage, thanks :) | 12:20 |
| Sage | np | 12:21 |
| smoku | Sage, looks like the list build into spectacle | 12:21 |
| TrackerDPP | i have just paid my N900 | 12:21 |
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| TrackerDPP | and i have need you help to install "NeoPwn" on | 12:21 |
| smoku | Sage, I got confused, because meego packages do not comply with this list | 12:22 |
| psycho_oreos | lol | 12:22 |
| psycho_oreos | TrackerDPP, this is not a support channel for neopwn, its a support channel for meego | 12:23 |
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| TrackerDPP | ok | 12:25 |
| TrackerDPP | thanks | 12:25 |
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| psycho_oreos | fyi, there's a huge thread on maemo forums about neopwn.. lots of newbs asked there for support so that thread sort of became a support thread. You might want to search it up and have a read | 12:26 |
| TrackerDPP | ok | 12:29 |
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| TrackerDPP | i have need office on my maemo | 12:40 |
| TrackerDPP | N900 | 12:40 |
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| tcs-meego | Does the QMediaPlayer use Gstreamer underneath? Can I use QMediaPlayer to open a usb video input device such as /dev/easycap0 ? | 13:08 |
| obit_sweden | Anyone knows how the penmount gCal app gets the screen resolution ? | 13:08 |
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| HoCoK | O_o | 15:33 |
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| HoCoK | ( MoL0ToV ) tovarish ;D | 15:35 |
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| CosmoHill | hey vgrade and lbt | 15:39 |
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| HoCoK | ( _kristianm ) da HUI | 15:40 |
| HoCoK | ( CosmoHill ) ti huy | 15:40 |
| CosmoHill | HoCoK: what month were you born in? | 15:40 |
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| HoCoK | ( CosmoHill ) cho??? | 15:41 |
| CosmoHill | you don't speak English do you? | 15:42 |
| HoCoK | ( CosmoHill ) ti tupoi pendos | 15:42 |
| HoCoK | ( CosmoHill ) noy | 15:42 |
| HoCoK | net | 15:43 |
| HoCoK | nine | 15:43 |
| HoCoK | suoh | 15:43 |
| CosmoHill | HoCoK: DE, FR, GB ? | 15:44 |
| HoCoK | USSR | 15:44 |
| HoCoK | ;) | 15:44 |
| Mat_Matan | HoCoK: co to kurwa ma być? wypierdalaj mi z tym! | 15:45 |
| Mat_Matan | HoCoK: en [go away ftom this channel] | 15:45 |
| HoCoK | ( Mat_Matan ) cho??? | 15:45 |
| CosmoHill | Основным языком является английский канал | 15:45 |
| Termana | Are you sure that's what you said? Google Translate said something completely different | 15:46 |
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| Termana | HoCoK, SPREKA ZE ENGLISH IN HERA ONNALE | 15:46 |
| CosmoHill | (The main channel language is English) | 15:46 |
| Mat_Matan | Termana: i know what i said :P | 15:46 |
| HoCoK | ( Termana ) .!. | 15:47 |
| Termana | See, he understands what I said perfectly well | 15:47 |
| Termana | :P | 15:47 |
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| CosmoHill | he only has 3 fingers :o | 15:47 |
| Leshko | hello all=) | 15:47 |
| CosmoHill | hi | 15:47 |
| Leshko | i'am Alexey | 15:47 |
| Leshko | I from | 15:48 |
| HoCoK | blyaaaaaaaa | 15:48 |
| Splice | )) | 15:48 |
| Leshko | Russia=) | 15:48 |
| HoCoK | ( Leshko ) ( Splice ) O EBAT!!!!!!!!! | 15:48 |
| CosmoHill | is Splice also from russa? | 15:48 |
| Leshko | i'am from Yakutsk city=) | 15:48 |
| Leshko | yes=) | 15:48 |
| Splice | HoCoK îîîîî | 15:48 |
| Leshko | Hocok Splice and I | 15:48 |
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| CosmoHill | and you both know HoCoK | 15:48 |
| Leshko | from | 15:48 |
| Leshko | Russia | 15:48 |
| Leshko | ) | 15:48 |
| HoCoK | ( Splice ) ( Leshko ) GO VODKU PIT NA NG!!!!!!!!! | 15:48 |
| Termana | Please say everything on one line - stop splitting it up | 15:48 |
| Leshko | [..:: Termana ::..] | 15:48 |
| Leshko | oy | 15:49 |
| HoCoK | ( CosmoHill ) i ti idi na hui | 15:49 |
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| Leshko | ok ok :) | 15:49 |
| Leshko | xxaxa | 15:49 |
| Splice | ? | 15:49 |
| Leshko | cocute cyku :) | 15:49 |
| Splice | oo | 15:49 |
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| Splice | hahahaa | 15:49 |
| Termana | CosmoHill, something tells me we may be eating some spam imported from Russia | 15:49 |
| CosmoHill | you are all aware the this channel is English | 15:49 |
| Termana | Leshko, Splice: English only please | 15:49 |
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| Leshko | xmm | 15:49 |
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| Leshko | i badly | 15:49 |
| Leshko | speak | 15:49 |
| HoCoK | ( Splice ) alena churka :P | 15:49 |
| Leshko | from english language:) | 15:50 |
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| CosmoHill | Leshko, HoCoK, Splice: http://translate.google.com/#ru|en| | 15:50 |
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| Leshko | [..:: CosmoHill ::..] | 15:50 |
| HoCoK | ( Leshko ) yz tut mass privat sdelal | 15:50 |
| Termana | FUCKERS I AM GOING TO FUCKING KICK YOUR ARSES OUT OF THIS CHANNEL IF YOU DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH | 15:50 |
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| HoCoK | ( Leshko ) ya tut mass privat sdelal | 15:50 |
| HoCoK | :D | 15:50 |
| Leshko | xaxaxaxaxaxaa | 15:50 |
| * Termana slaps people with some trout | 15:50 | |
| Leshko | [..:: Termana ::..] | 15:50 |
| X-Fade | Guys. Join #meego-ru or something like that. | 15:50 |
| Leshko | ne pizdi cyka | 15:50 |
| CosmoHill | Termana: woah, rage much? | 15:51 |
| Leshko | ebalo raznesy | 15:51 |
| Termana | CosmoHill, I R Mad | 15:51 |
| Termana | :p | 15:51 |
| Splice | HoCoK sock shut | 15:51 |
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| HoCoK | ( CosmoHill ) no i stupit ;) | 15:51 |
| Leshko | i don't love American Shit!!! | 15:51 |
| HoCoK | ( Splice ) cho shut??? | 15:51 |
| Leshko | xaxaxaxaxa | 15:51 |
| Leshko | [..:: HoCoK ::..] | 15:51 |
| Splice | dada | 15:51 |
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| Leshko | [..:: Splice ::..] | 15:51 |
| Leshko | xaxaxa | 15:51 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o X-Fade | 15:51 | |
| Splice | çàòêíèñü ãîâîðþ íîñîê | 15:51 |
| HoCoK | ( Splice ) à ÷¸ òàê =( | 15:52 |
| Leshko | emm | 15:52 |
| Leshko | people | 15:52 |
| Splice | sory | 15:52 |
| Mat_Matan | someone can add +q for this smamers? | 15:52 |
| Leshko | do you like??? | 15:52 |
| Splice | )) | 15:52 |
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| Mat_Matan | *spamers | 15:52 |
| X-Fade | Guys I'm going to silence some people.. | 15:52 |
| timoph | good | 15:52 |
| X-Fade | Please keep it on topic and in English here. | 15:52 |
| Leshko | ëþäè ãîâîðèì ÷èñòî ïî àíãëèéñêè :) | 15:53 |
| Leshko | ok | 15:53 |
| Leshko | ok | 15:53 |
| * Termana facepalms | 15:53 | |
| Splice | ok | 15:53 |
| CosmoHill | X-Fade: can you +s the channel | 15:53 |
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| Leshko | emm | 15:54 |
| X-Fade | CosmoHill: Why would I make it secret? :) | 15:54 |
| Leshko | this chanel emm - main chanel in the server ????? | 15:54 |
| Leshko | this chanel emm - main chanel in the server ????? | 15:54 |
| CosmoHill | do you know what MeeGo is? | 15:54 |
| Leshko | ayyyy | 15:54 |
| Leshko | people's | 15:54 |
| CosmoHill | describe it to me | 15:55 |
| Leshko | what ? | 15:55 |
| HoCoK | a mi po lokot da zakataem a mi chikago razhuyarim na drova mi budem vodku jrat mi budem bab ebat da potomuchto nam na sovest savest naplevet | 15:55 |
| HoCoK | ;D | 15:55 |
| Termana | Excuse me while I go kill myself | 15:55 |
| Leshko | xaxaxa ;) | 15:55 |
| CosmoHill | Termana: but you'll miss the murders | 15:55 |
| *** X-Fade sets mode: +q HoCok!*@* | 15:55 | |
| jonnor | Don't feed the trolls. | 15:55 |
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| Leshko | emm | 15:55 |
| Leshko | you live in the city ?? (i badly speak for english language) | 15:56 |
| CosmoHill | http://www.serengeticom.com/blogwp-content/uploads/2008/08/do_not_feed_the_trolls.jpg | 15:56 |
| CosmoHill | oh damn it's not loaded | 15:56 |
| kyb3R | CosmoHill: :) | 15:56 |
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| kyb3R | i saw it somewhere today though | 15:57 |
| CosmoHill | :) | 15:57 |
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| Termana | CosmoHill, 404 :p | 15:57 |
| *** X-Fade sets mode: -o X-Fade | 15:57 | |
| CosmoHill | X-Fade: have you ever done a drive by banning? | 15:58 |
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| Leshko | girls please go to my private :)))) | 15:58 |
| Leshko | girls please go to my private :)))) | 15:58 |
| Leshko | girls please go to my private :)))) | 15:58 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +q *!*@80.83.239.6 | 15:59 | |
| X-Fade | CosmoHill: I try to be fair and give people some time to learn from their mistakes :) | 16:00 |
| CosmoHill | You have 0 private messages. | 16:00 |
| lbt | hi CosmoHill | 16:00 |
| CosmoHill | hey lbt | 16:00 |
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| v_zaitsev | leshko should write on #qt instead, would at least be on topic (private class, ha ha) | 16:00 |
| CosmoHill | you know know that banning and kicking are two separate actions? | 16:01 |
| X-Fade | CosmoHill: I only quiet them. | 16:01 |
| CosmoHill | you're kinder than I am | 16:01 |
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| RST38h | X-Fade <== excersizes preventive censorship rather than punitive | 16:02 |
| CosmoHill | I used to wonder why the ops before me were so bitter but now I'm finding out >.< | 16:02 |
| timoph | yep. I'd've used /kb | 16:02 |
| RST38h | Less fun though. | 16:02 |
| X-Fade | Well it is much harder to be able to see, but not talk :) | 16:02 |
| Termana | X-Fade, you're kidding right? I don't think anything they were doing was on mistake :p | 16:02 |
| CosmoHill | you've basically done the IRC equivalent of putting duct tape over their mouths | 16:03 |
| timoph | :) | 16:03 |
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| timoph | macgyver move | 16:03 |
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| X-Fade | Termana: You can never be sure about things like that. They clearly didn't know irc guidlines and were no native speakers. | 16:03 |
| X-Fade | That doesn't make people dumb. | 16:03 |
| CosmoHill | leshko seems like a teenager | 16:04 |
| X-Fade | They are just uninformed and not able to express themselves properly. | 16:04 |
| CosmoHill | a teenager who is currently talking to a 45 year old with a beard | 16:04 |
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| toadpole | i be able to dual-boot windows 7 / meego on my netbook? | 16:14 |
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| toadpole | *will | 16:15 |
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| CosmoHill | http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/blog/2010/11/02/setting-dual-boot-netbook-win-7-meego | 16:17 |
| toadpole | fantastic, thanks bro, much appreciated | 16:18 |
| CosmoHill | I've added it to the FAQ too | 16:19 |
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| toadpole | whats the url for the faq? | 16:23 |
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| CosmoHill | http://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=FAQ | 16:23 |
| CosmoHill | we're having a slight issue with http://wiki.meego.com/FAQ at the moment :/ | 16:23 |
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| CosmoHill | toadpole: Dawn Foster would probably be the person to speak to about helping MeeGo | 16:28 |
| toadpole | ( CosmoHill ): sorry about that | 16:29 |
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| CosmoHill | it happens | 16:32 |
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| toadpole | ( CosmoHill ): after writing the netbook image to a USB drive, is it normal for it to not be accessible in windows? | 16:38 |
| CosmoHill | yes, the USB image uses BTFS (or something) that Windows can't read | 16:39 |
| toadpole | okay, thanks | 16:39 |
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| John___ | good morning | 17:05 |
| CosmoHill | salut .o/ | 17:05 |
| John___ | cant wait for n9 to be released in Q2 of 2011 | 17:05 |
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| ShadowJK | Q2 eh? | 17:06 |
| CosmoHill | unless you have a time machine you're gonna have to wait | 17:06 |
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| John___ | yes | 17:07 |
| leinir | ShadowJK: Mmm, unsubstantiated rumours, aren't they fun? ;) | 17:07 |
| John___ | q2 of 2011 | 17:07 |
| John___ | it will not be the sister model of nokia n8 | 17:08 |
| ShadowJK | Actually, Q2 2011 is the answer I give people about my projects too | 17:08 |
| ShadowJK | (before that I said Q4 2010 until I realized it was christmas already) :D | 17:08 |
| John___ | dual core processor with 1ghz and 512mb ram\ | 17:09 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 17:09 |
| ShadowJK | is that a memory bandwidth crippled omap4 then? | 17:09 |
| John___ | im going to go in my time machine 50 years and buy the nokia nanotechnology | 17:11 |
| CosmoHill | you mean were you walk into the Nokia store and they install the implants for you? | 17:13 |
| v_zaitsev | too bad the eyephone implant idea is already taken, but maybe there will be earphones and hairphones | 17:14 |
| ShadowJK | man, and i was starting to get used to the idea of nokia pupil display contact lenses already (they'd called it retinal display, but apple stole it for their normal lcd) :-( | 17:14 |
| John___ | so i heard nokia is changing "S" series | 17:16 |
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| John___ | shadow | 17:17 |
| John___ | you got some secret info? | 17:17 |
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| GAN900 | John___, wrong channel to be rumor mongering. | 17:21 |
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| John___ | so i have the n8 and is there a way i can put meego on it> | 17:25 |
| tybollt_ | GAN900: is the gfx accel stuff merged w/ what is put up in the daily build dirs? | 17:25 |
| GAN900 | tybollt_, hell if I know. | 17:26 |
| GAN900 | John___, short answer: yes. Long answer, how much free time do you have? | 17:26 |
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| GAN900 | You'll have to figure your way past Nokia's signed bootloader. | 17:27 |
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| lcuk_idea | tybollt_, ask in #meego-arm, but right now I doubt it, just prior to christmas, stskeeps handed the patches over for review after some cleanup. once reviewed and integrated they will be on testing first | 17:27 |
| tybollt_ | ty | 17:27 |
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| lcuk_idea | tybollt_, but if you are OBS savvy, I believe you can find the patches yourself and assist with the review | 17:28 |
| lcuk_idea | but as said, ask in #meego-arm | 17:28 |
| tybollt_ | savy but little time so rather a pre built pkg :) | 17:28 |
| tybollt_ | */imgae | 17:29 |
| tybollt_ | image, too | 17:29 |
| * lcuk_idea bashing head at following code for a single widget | 17:29 | |
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| * lcuk_idea puts head back into MButton | 17:32 | |
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| lcuk_idea | are bug 25 and bug 10351 related/samecause? | 17:41 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=25 maj, Medium, ---, yong.y.wang, ASSI, [pinetrail NB] system hang after wake up sometimes (around 10% possibility) | 17:41 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10351 maj, Medium, ---, yong.y.wang, NEW, [Toshiba NB 305 / Lenovo Ideapad S10-3t] fails to resume from suspend | 17:41 |
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| lotf | hello | 18:05 |
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| lotf | I'm trying to locate meego-handset-armv7l-n900-final-mod-1.1.0.0.20101101.3-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2 | 18:05 |
| lotf | Or whatever is the latest image for n900. | 18:06 |
| lotf | http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php gives an "An error occurred while processing your request.". | 18:07 |
| timoph | try repo.meego.com | 18:11 |
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| lotf | So http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.1.80/1.1.80.11.20101221.1/handset/images/meego-handset-armv7l-n900/meego-handset-armv7l-n900-1.1.80.11.20101221.1-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2 would be the correct one? | 18:14 |
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| lotf | I'm planning to try dual booting with u-boot. | 18:14 |
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| lotf | Using the tutorial in MeeGo wiki | 18:16 |
| lotf | I suppose it's uptodate, other than the name of the image? | 18:17 |
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| timoph | the name tells that it's an MeeGo 1.2 (1.1.80) development image from 21 December | 18:21 |
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| lotf | yeah | 18:23 |
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| CosmoHill | how do I restart the network on meego? | 19:27 |
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| lcuk_idea | CosmoHill, in netboook, network settings, off and back on again? | 19:32 |
| CosmoHill | ah got it | 19:32 |
| CosmoHill | in vmware I disconnect and reconnect the "cable" | 19:32 |
| lcuk_idea | in handset the configurator isnt working, hmm not needed that but its not working | 19:32 |
| lcuk_idea | CosmoHill, ahh | 19:32 |
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| CosmoHill | lcuk_idea: I'm giving ksplice a go on a VM | 19:57 |
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| Ulf_ | Hi | 20:13 |
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| CosmoHill | .o/ | 20:14 |
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| marmar | hallo | 20:43 |
| marmar | !list | 20:44 |
| CosmoHill | go away | 20:46 |
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| CosmoHill | this is not an anime sharing channel | 20:46 |
| timeless_mbp | CosmoHill++ | 20:46 |
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| lcuk_idea | what kind of sharing channel is it? | 20:47 |
| CosmoHill | X-Fade: that's another reason for +s | 20:47 |
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| timeless_mbp | lcuk: anger | 20:47 |
| lcuk_idea | :( better to share code and collaborate | 20:47 |
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| lcuk | ~seen frals | 20:50 |
| infobot | frals is currently on #maemo (7d 21h 29m 42s) #meego (7d 21h 29m 42s). Has said a total of 12 messages. Is idling for 45m 28s, last said: 'yeah, bah, he told me to ping him when i was around but now he isnt! typical'. | 20:51 |
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| frals | oi | 20:51 |
| frals | give me a sec | 20:51 |
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| lcuk | yessir | 20:51 |
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| lcuk | timeless_mbp, the translation stuff you have been looking at again last few days | 20:55 |
| lcuk | is it all valid for qt stuff still? | 20:55 |
| timeless_mbp | ? | 20:55 |
| lcuk | I know the actual translations aren't, but I mean the principles | 20:55 |
| timeless_mbp | it's just an update of the strings | 20:55 |
| timeless_mbp | i fixed one bug in the ui's debug set | 20:55 |
| lcuk | or are there different gotchas with qt based translation | 20:55 |
| timeless_mbp | no, the gotchas are about the same | 20:56 |
| timeless_mbp | well | 20:56 |
| timeless_mbp | there's a gotcha which should be underlined: | 20:56 |
| timeless_mbp | 1. if you define a string for "never", *make* sure it's usable | 20:56 |
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| lcuk | timeless_mbp, ? what do you mean | 20:58 |
| timeless_mbp | modest has two mail plugins w/ sync schedules | 20:58 |
| timeless_mbp | both let you select 1..7 days for syncing | 20:58 |
| timeless_mbp | but the ui designers specify a string for 0 days | 20:59 |
| timeless_mbp | this isn't reachable in either case (mfe, nm), because the dialog doesn't let you close w/ 0 items selected :o | 20:59 |
| timeless_mbp | ... | 20:59 |
| timeless_mbp | part 2 of this story | 20:59 |
| timeless_mbp | the mfe strings show you whichever days you picked | 20:59 |
| timeless_mbp | nm shows you 'weekends', 'weekdays', {somedays}, {everyday} | 21:00 |
| timeless_mbp | since the two components are providing the *same* list widget to select the *same* thing | 21:00 |
| timeless_mbp | one would hope they'd *share* a ui (including none, and magic collapsing days, and well, the ability to show the days in the cases they aren't magically collapsed) | 21:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | lcuk: did you ever browse through the slides for my dublin talk? | 21:01 |
| timeless_mbp | this general problem is covered by a control panel example (voip v. sharing) | 21:01 |
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| lcuk | timeless_mbp, yeah I looked over a few times as you discussed them | 21:02 |
| timeless_mbp | ok | 21:02 |
| * timeless_mbp should memorize the slide numbers :) | 21:02 | |
| lcuk | (apologies multiple convos going on, just got here after a hacking day) | 21:02 |
| lcuk | lol | 21:03 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah, no problem | 21:03 |
| timeless_mbp | anyway, the other thing which i didn't really highlight in that talk | 21:03 |
| lcuk | web links work as well | 21:03 |
| timeless_mbp | but which i should in some talk | 21:03 |
| timeless_mbp | is that the best way to test any ui is by working from the error strings | 21:03 |
| CosmoHill | I've just realised I'm using 2 computers at once | 21:03 |
| CosmoHill | *3 | 21:03 |
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| timeless_mbp | the error strings effectively define the list of outcomes | 21:03 |
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| lcuk | timeless_mbp, yeah I have seen you do this multiple times | 21:04 |
| lcuk | noticing a strange translation then working through to find out how to raise it | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | yep | 21:04 |
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| timeless_mbp | it applies just as well to Qt | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | but it needs to be pounded into people's heads | 21:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | the other thing which came up is the use of hard coded strings | 21:05 |
| timeless_mbp | nm used "%s - %s" in one place to *paste* two strings together | 21:05 |
| timeless_mbp | (this is a *big* no-no) | 21:05 |
| RST38h | Looks ok. | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: not all languages use '-' as the separator | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | it wasn't a _("%s - %s") | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | it was a * "%s - %s" * | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | the second half of this | 21:06 |
| RST38h | I can use any shit as a separator, in any language | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | separators need to be controlled by the linguist for a given language | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | not the idiot coding the app | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | thanks. | 21:07 |
| RST38h | And it will still look intelligeable, as long as the separator is not an alphabetic symbol | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: so | 21:07 |
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| timeless_mbp | the problem is that you might have a language that needs to do %2$s - %1$s | 21:07 |
| RST38h | Yes | Vertical Lines | Will | Work | Too | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | which you can't do if an idiot hard codes the string | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | repeat after me: | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | PASTING STRINGS IS BAD | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | DON'T DO IT | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | thanks. | 21:08 |
| RST38h | That depends on the context where your string has been used. | 21:08 |
| RST38h | In most contexts it will be just fine | 21:08 |
| timeless_mbp | would someone *please* kick RST38h out of here? | 21:08 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: you don't deal with enough languages | 21:08 |
| timeless_mbp | you're an annoying westerner | 21:08 |
| RST38h | Me? A westerner? | 21:08 |
| timeless_mbp | please get out of this conversation | 21:08 |
| RST38h | So far it looks like a monologue | 21:09 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, actually it looks like quite an indepth explanation of easy gotchas encountered with translations to me | 21:09 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: you speak Russian, right? | 21:09 |
| RST38h | With the delivering person suggesting to kick his only opponent, too. As a Cthulhu adept, I LOVE that | 21:09 |
| timeless_mbp | do you speak Arabic, Farsi, or Hebrew? | 21:10 |
| timeless_mbp | In this context, Russian is a Western language | 21:10 |
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| RST38h | <yawn> | 21:10 |
| * timeless_mbp chuckles | 21:10 | |
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| RST38h | The point you are missing here is that the "%1 - %2" construct does not have to be related to the language punctuation rules | 21:11 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: the coders i'm dealing with get this stuff wrong | 21:11 |
| RST38h | In fact, most often you will end up with "/dev/mmc1 - 15MB free" | 21:11 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: which in Arabic or Hebrew might need to be: | 21:11 |
| timeless_mbp | EERF 15MB - /dev/mmc1 | 21:11 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, hmm you just highlighted something for me I did not know existed. | 21:12 |
| RST38h | It will be just the same in Arabic or Hebrew, thank you very much | 21:12 |
| lcuk | printf strings reordering the use of parameters | 21:12 |
| RST38h | The technical info crap is universal | 21:12 |
| lcuk | RST38h, its just an example. | 21:12 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: it's ;-) | 21:12 |
| RST38h | lcuk: And my point is that the frequency of my example to the frequency oftimeless' example is like 9:1 | 21:12 |
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| lcuk | *facepalm* :P | 21:13 |
| * lcuk will learn one day. | 21:13 | |
| RST38h | lcuk: So, 9 times out of 10, "%1 - %2" is perfectly fine. | 21:13 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, and the one time its not is because the developer treated it like you and required complete reintegration of components based on a silly thing. | 21:14 |
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| timeless_mbp | ok, next bit | 21:17 |
| RST38h | lcuk:I do not translate my software,so it does not apply | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | don't hard code time formatting string | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | s | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | nm has "%I:%M %p" in it | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | which is wrong for all sorts of reasons | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | the ui spec (i checked) specifically said "should match the system" | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | that doesn't mean "please pass some random arbitrary string you hard coded to strftime" | 21:18 |
| timeless_mbp | %I is generally wrong if you're using 12hr clocks | 21:18 |
| timeless_mbp | (correct is generally %l fwiw, but that's not relevant, the point is that it should have used a localization marker) | 21:18 |
| timeless_mbp | (as it happens, it should generally be %P not %p, but...) | 21:18 |
| berndhs | there is some stuff that is sort of human readable, but doesn't get translated | 21:19 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.chromium.org/_/rsrc/1220197834922/developers/design-documents/ui-mirroring-infrastructure/explorer_window_he.jpg | 21:19 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: this isn't one of those cases | 21:20 |
| timeless_mbp | it was actually used in the UI | 21:20 |
| berndhs | configuration settings, for example | 21:20 |
| timeless_mbp | configuration settings should generally not include % anything... | 21:20 |
| timeless_mbp | in the cases they do, the user should be able to change them, in which case it isn't an issue | 21:20 |
| RST38h | People who "localize" standard Unix command line utilities should be exterminated with extreme prejudice btw | 21:20 |
| berndhs | actually, configuration keys is what I should say | 21:20 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: sp3000 says "you can always use LANG=C" | 21:21 |
| berndhs | some configuration does get reported to users | 21:21 |
| RST38h | Because I do not (repeat: DO NOT) want to see file creation dates in Russian just because I need xterm to show Russian | 21:21 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: anyway, this conversation is to raise awareness of ways coders can screw up | 21:21 |
| RST38h | LANG=C kills cyrillic support in xterm | 21:21 |
| berndhs | oh sure, that type of reminder is useful | 21:21 |
| berndhs | I just also remind that not everything that is user-facing shoudl be translated | 21:22 |
| RST38h | LANG=RU (or something similar) enables cyrillics but makes ls print funny dates | 21:22 |
| RST38h | screwing a zillion of Unix scripts that rely on ls returning standard english dates | 21:22 |
| timeless_mbp | in theory there's LC_NUMERIC= and other stupid things | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | but the reality is that they don't work | 21:23 |
| lcuk | i thought unix had its own proper date format that utilities can output as and be parsed properly | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | (maemo totally botches them, but they don't work anyway, and even RST38h is pointing out cases where this stuff fails) | 21:23 |
| lcuk | for specifically this reason? | 21:23 |
| RST38h | Just because some egghead thought that some users MAY have problems memorizing Mon/Tue/Wed/etc | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: sadly RST38h is right about unix commandlines | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | some idiots decided that localizing them was a good idea | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | and the result is disastrous | 21:24 |
| timeless_mbp | but let's focus on GUI disasters | 21:24 |
| timeless_mbp | (yes, RST38h and i can agree once in a while) | 21:24 |
| lcuk | well yeah, the command line is the UI in htis instance, but unix makes extensive use of processing of it | 21:24 |
| lcuk | this ^ | 21:24 |
| * timeless_mbp underlines the G in GUI | 21:24 | |
| berndhs | yes GUI disasters like saying that an IP address has 4 decimal numeric fields :) | 21:24 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: i can't remember if this app screwed that up | 21:25 |
| RST38h | [state-of-factly] Word "shit" starts with G in Russian. Yiddish too, if you wonder. | 21:25 |
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| berndhs | GUI here basically means multiple-choice language interface | 21:26 |
| RST38h | BTW, a really fun issue to discuss is what happens when your localized string is twice longer than your original LANG=C string and no long fits into your nice GUI element | 21:26 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: non scripted :) | 21:26 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: oh | 21:27 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h brings up a point which arose in #maemo | 21:27 |
| timeless_mbp | namely localized strings tend to be much longer | 21:27 |
| berndhs | also, its not about the Graphical parts of Graphical user interface :) | 21:27 |
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| lcuk | agreed timeless_mbp | 21:27 |
| timeless_mbp | an english string could be e.g. "Dual" | 21:27 |
| timeless_mbp | and the finnish string can be um... | 21:27 |
| lcuk | I encountered this many times in the past. | 21:27 |
| RST38h | The solution is to keep UI in English while providing localized help/documentation | 21:27 |
| berndhs | another solution is to use Icons that are misunderstood equally in all locales | 21:28 |
| RST38h | Because, let us face it, it is not that hard to remember what "Dual" means. | 21:28 |
| timeless_mbp | "Kaksitoimisuus" | 21:28 |
| lcuk | the other alternative involves not using fixed size elements and instead using an adaptable layout. | 21:28 |
| RST38h | berndhs: Hell no. | 21:28 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, while we're at it | 21:28 |
| timeless_mbp | "Don't use a FLAG to mean LANGUAGE" | 21:29 |
| RST38h | lcuk:Instant fail | 21:29 |
| lcuk | berndhs, !!! | 21:29 |
| RST38h | lcuk: As your physical screen size (!) is limited. | 21:29 |
| timeless_mbp | e.g. the flag of Sweden is not a good idea to mean sv_FI, sv_DK, sv_NO | 21:29 |
| RST38h | So, no, adaptable layouts only work to a certain point in mobile devices | 21:29 |
| lcuk | RST38h, I used to do dynamic sizing of both element and font to work around issues such as this. | 21:29 |
| timeless_mbp | nor is some random British/English/Londonish flag a good idea to mean en_US | 21:29 |
| RST38h | lcuk: I am also doing it in the Sliderule. Only works to a point after which the text becomes unreadable. | 21:30 |
| timeless_mbp | anyway, in some cases, the right answer is indeed to not localize the ui | 21:30 |
| timeless_mbp | and instead provide people with a help guide | 21:30 |
| timeless_mbp | e.g. i'd rather the dialpad on a phone not be localized | 21:30 |
| timeless_mbp | there's no reasons to add ß to the phone | 21:30 |
| RST38h | Actually, phone dialpads NEED to be loclized. | 21:30 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: really? | 21:31 |
| timeless_mbp | *sob* | 21:31 |
| berndhs | and don't use google translate expecting to be understood | 21:31 |
| RST38h | Yea, timeless, sorry. | 21:31 |
| lcuk | RST38h, http://liqbase.net/font_scale_rendering_area_2.png silly and gone to extreme (viewed through vnc so at 90% scale anyway) | 21:31 |
| RST38h | Because it is not just a few umlauts, but the whole 33 different letters for some people. | 21:31 |
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| timeless_mbp | RST38h: yeah, i know that for hebrew they provide both ABC and hebrew | 21:31 |
| timeless_mbp | i suppose that for russian it'd be the same | 21:32 |
| RST38h | And Nokia, in fact, localizes dialpads/keypads. | 21:32 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.xda-developers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/fast_dialer_screenshot8.png | 21:32 |
| timeless_mbp | for a sample Cyrillic dialpad | 21:32 |
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| RST38h | More or less, yes | 21:33 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: did nokia do that for the n900? | 21:33 |
| RST38h | Not that I ever use the goddamn thing | 21:33 |
| RST38h | Nokia messed upN900 cyrillic keyboard | 21:33 |
| RST38h | Same for N97 | 21:33 |
| timeless_mbp | i don't care about the keyboard | 21:33 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm curious about the dialpad | 21:33 |
| RST38h | You mean dialpad? Don'tthink so | 21:33 |
| timeless_mbp | i mean dialpad | 21:33 |
| timeless_mbp | if i mean keyboard, i'll say keyboard! | 21:33 |
| RST38h | On the other hand, my locale is set to US English | 21:34 |
| timeless_mbp | as for keyboards | 21:34 |
| timeless_mbp | we screwed up the keyboards by doing a stupid rotation of 5 blue keys between some layouts | 21:34 |
| timeless_mbp | that was just gratuitous damage | 21:34 |
| RST38h | You screwed the keyboards by remiving arrow keys | 21:34 |
| timeless_mbp | nah | 21:34 |
| timeless_mbp | that was different damage | 21:34 |
| timeless_mbp | not having enough rows | 21:34 |
| RST38h | BTW, someone fixed Russian N900 keyboards, just not sure who | 21:35 |
| timeless_mbp | and letting ui designers "solve" the problem | 21:35 |
| RST38h | But you CAN buy N900 with the "correct" Russian keyboard nowadays | 21:35 |
| timeless_mbp | fwiw, it seems my n900's hardware keylayout has > somewhere | 21:35 |
| RST38h | N97 was worse: it was missing cyrillic "B" on its keyboard (usage frequency for B is about the same as in english) | 21:36 |
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| timeless_mbp | `%^<> on a s d f g | 21:36 |
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| timeless_mbp | (as blue-shift-<letter>) | 21:36 |
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| timeless_mbp | so now that i know that, if i can remember it, i really don't need the broken sym button :) | 21:37 |
| timeless_mbp | Anyway... | 21:37 |
| timeless_mbp | what else was there from this round of stupidity | 21:37 |
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| timeless_mbp | well, there's the general "labels and values need to agree" thing | 21:38 |
| timeless_mbp | you can't have "Download size" as a label with "Full message" and "Message headers" as values | 21:38 |
| timeless_mbp | those aren't /sizes/ .... | 21:38 |
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| lcuk | question about previous size related point. | 21:39 |
| timeless_mbp | there's also the "If a UI is going to have 3 instances of the same item and another ui is going to reference *one* of them, you better do something to enable the user to figure out which one" | 21:39 |
| timeless_mbp | sure | 21:39 |
| timeless_mbp | oh | 21:39 |
| timeless_mbp | on sizes | 21:39 |
| lcuk | Using this latest example, the label says "Download size" the value says "300mb" (or whatever actual) | 21:39 |
| timeless_mbp | good toolkits let localizers define 3 localization strings for a single identifier | 21:39 |
| lcuk | during translation you said the strings can get longer | 21:39 |
| lcuk | should the developer aim to ensure the Value is overprinted | 21:40 |
| lcuk | in case of longer strings | 21:40 |
| timeless_mbp | generally speaking stretching the ui is best | 21:40 |
| lcuk | and no wiggle room available | 21:40 |
| timeless_mbp | redesign. | 21:40 |
| timeless_mbp | 300mb might be close to 1/2GB | 21:40 |
| lcuk | reasonable, but as we know its not as easy to redesign as to just make sure the Value string sits ontop of the label caption, so the user might see a bit of a cutoff label | 21:41 |
| timeless_mbp | where ½ is a glyph you could use if desperate | 21:41 |
| lcuk | but still be able to read the quantity | 21:41 |
| timeless_mbp | so, are we talking about a single pasted string <Download size (%d)mb> ? | 21:42 |
| RST38h | You mean, you would like to force developer into providing three different translations for each application string in each language? | 21:42 |
| lcuk | as an example, yes | 21:42 |
| timeless_mbp | the ui in question was a two row button which triggers a popup list | 21:42 |
| lcuk | but I know of many other places | 21:42 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: no | 21:42 |
| RST38h | Is anyone doing cost/benefit analysis here | 21:42 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: in theory the toolkit would figure out which string to use | 21:43 |
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| timeless_mbp | so if a large string doesn't fit, it'd use a smaller one | 21:43 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, heh, that sort of thing is hard work! | 21:43 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: my primary job is working on a browser, the core of which is a layout engine | 21:43 |
| * lcuk has considered fully dynamic space adaptive uis in the past | 21:43 | |
| timeless_mbp | i'm aware of that | 21:43 |
| RST38h | But whoprovides the strings? | 21:43 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: what is relevant to your case is localization notes | 21:44 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, yes. | 21:44 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: ? the coder provides one string (or identifier) | 21:44 |
| timeless_mbp | the linguist/translator for a given language provides 1, 2 or 3 strings | 21:44 |
| RST38h | Who provides the 3 strings for each message in each language? | 21:44 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: imagine, Mo, Mon, Monday | 21:44 |
| RST38h | Who pays the linguist, if it is an OSS project? | 21:44 |
| timeless_mbp | (actually probably M not Mo, but whatever) | 21:44 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: oddly enough OSS projects do get linguists eventually | 21:45 |
| timeless_mbp | visit transifex.net some day | 21:45 |
| RST38h | Mghm | 21:45 |
| timeless_mbp | or as we're in #meego, try meego.transifex.net | 21:45 |
| timeless_mbp | anyway... | 21:45 |
| timeless_mbp | on sizing | 21:45 |
| timeless_mbp | if your ui is constrained, you need to give a localization note/hint | 21:46 |
| timeless_mbp | classically these looked something like: | 21:46 |
| timeless_mbp | gr | 21:46 |
| timeless_mbp | /* LOCALIZATION NOTE: foo only has space for 12 letters */ | 21:46 |
| RST38h | i-letters or w-letters? | 21:47 |
| timeless_mbp | fprintf(file, _("hello %s"), user); | 21:47 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: the note being as specific as necessary | 21:47 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, ok, now considering we think towards landscape+portrait, foo should be based on the smaller of those? | 21:47 |
| timeless_mbp | in my case the localization note is for a monospaced font :) | 21:47 |
| RST38h | AndI guess you are supposed to leave a specific not for each app string? | 21:47 |
| RST38h | note | 21:48 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: if there are constraints for a given string, yes, each one gets its own note | 21:48 |
| berndhs | i think the users who demand translations the loudest should pay the linguists | 21:48 |
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| RST38h | Ok, consider cost/benefit analysis for this fun activity | 21:48 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: not providing translations is actually a reasonable choice | 21:48 |
| timeless_mbp | if the app is important, one of two things will happen: | 21:48 |
| timeless_mbp | 1. someone will write a cheat sheet | 21:48 |
| timeless_mbp | 2. someone will start localizing | 21:48 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: but note that we're in #meego | 21:49 |
| timeless_mbp | and here we have a couple of companies who will burn money paying for bad translations | 21:49 |
| berndhs | so what ? my applications won't be compliant anyway :P | 21:49 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: can you let me address lcuk 's point? you're just being a troublemaker like RST38h | 21:49 |
| berndhs | sure go ahead | 21:50 |
| RST38h | Calling people who do not agree with you troublemakers is a well known approach to discussion. | 21:50 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: generally speaking if you expect two strings to have different constraints, then they need to be different strings | 21:50 |
| berndhs | though we ere in #meego, nt in #timeless | 21:50 |
| timeless_mbp | you can either use the localization context bit or distinct strings | 21:50 |
| timeless_mbp | tr("Hello World", IS_PORTRAIT) | 21:51 |
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| timeless_mbp | (something like that | 21:51 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: it's 10pm, i'm doing this because i was asked | 21:51 |
| lcuk | RST38h, I notice in OSS, translation "teams" go round and have fun translating. its like playing WoW and having a 10 man raid, they go onto transifex or some other, and discuss and translate a whole application together into a couple of languages. | 21:51 |
| timeless_mbp | if you want me to leave, i'll leave | 21:51 |
| timeless_mbp | but please note that when i leave, i rarely return. | 21:51 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk is correct there | 21:51 |
| berndhs | timeless_mbp: your input is valuable | 21:52 |
| RST38h | lcuk: never got what the fun is there | 21:52 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: there's pride in it | 21:52 |
| timeless_mbp | and thanks | 21:52 |
| berndhs | not rather wordy and please dont monopolize the channel | 21:52 |
| timeless_mbp | (like tmo thanks but better) | 21:52 |
| lcuk | RST38h, sure, but different people like different things. | 21:52 |
| timeless_mbp | berndhs: if someone else has other topics, i can go home and watch tv | 21:52 |
| RST38h | Offering to leave, why not qualifying to a full-scale fit, is another, subtler, discussion approach. | 21:52 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm sitting at a bar and three people want to watch tv here | 21:52 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: other questions? | 21:53 |
| lcuk | berndhs, I reviewed logs earlier, for the last 24 hours this channel has been pretty much dead, this is an important enough discussion for a worldwide linux distribution expecting to have applications released in many places. | 21:53 |
| berndhs | alll tight I will shut up | 21:53 |
| RST38h | You mean, your N900 is plugged into a TV and runs IRC there? | 21:53 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, no I didn't think you could supply parameter like PORTRAIT into translation | 21:54 |
| timeless_mbp | §i'm @ http://eat.fi/en/helsinki/elmo | 21:54 |
| timeless_mbp | each table has its own tv | 21:54 |
| timeless_mbp | and i have an mbp using a portion of the table | 21:54 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: tr() takes 3 arguments | 21:55 |
| timeless_mbp | http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6//qobject.html#tr | 21:55 |
| timeless_mbp | QString QObject::tr ( const char * sourceText, const char * disambiguation = 0, int n = -1 ) [static] | 21:55 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm talking about the second argument | 21:55 |
| timeless_mbp | and i'm not even going to start talking about the third | 21:55 |
| timeless_mbp | (which is loads of fun, but nokia avoids that mess "differently") | 21:55 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: next? | 21:56 |
| * Debolaz looks around | 21:56 | |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, one question that has entered my head MANY times since I started hearing about it: | 21:57 |
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| lcuk | how do you translate QML | 21:57 |
| timeless_mbp | dunno :) | 21:57 |
| timeless_mbp | in gecko w/ XUL we use DTDs | 21:57 |
| CosmoHill | with a lot of swearing? | 21:57 |
| RST38h | You provide different QML script for each language? | 21:57 |
| timeless_mbp | http://kb.mozillazine.org/Getting_started_with_extension_development | 21:57 |
| RST38h | And this also lets you tinker with layout for each language? :) | 21:58 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: anyway, w/ gecko we use CSS for two things, theming and localization magic | 21:58 |
| lcuk | RST38h, sure, but then you just made it necessary for translation teams to also be designers | 21:58 |
| RST38h | Lcuk: No, they can cut&paste | 21:59 |
| timeless_mbp | http://doc.trolltech.com/4.7-snapshot/qdeclarativei18n.html | 21:59 |
| timeless_mbp | import QtQuick 1.0 | 21:59 |
| timeless_mbp | Rectangle { | 21:59 |
| timeless_mbp | width: 200; height: 200 | 21:59 |
| timeless_mbp | Text { text: qsTr("Hello"); anchors.centerIn: parent } | 21:59 |
| timeless_mbp | } | 21:59 |
| RST38h | Ok, another magic macro | 21:59 |
| timeless_mbp | hey, don't blame me for QML magic | 22:00 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, good, that pretty much answers it, as long as there is a way :) | 22:00 |
| timeless_mbp | i have nothing to do w/ it | 22:00 |
| RST38h | I am sorry to be cheeky, but is there *some* system to QML syntax? Or is it completely adhoc? | 22:00 |
| lcuk | what did you actually eat today? | 22:00 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm going home, there'a a Soccer game starting | 22:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | RST38h: my guess is adhoc | 22:07 |
| timeless_mbp | but... potentially it's an XML dialect written using {}s or alternatively a CSS dialect terribly misconstrued | 22:08 |
| timeless_mbp | i've looked at QML snippets and given up in frustration after about 3 lines | 22:08 |
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| sandst1 | afaik the syntax is based on Javascript | 22:14 |
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| timeless_mbp | sandst1: it isn't really | 22:17 |
| timeless_mbp | it might pretend to be | 22:17 |
| timeless_mbp | but it really isn't | 22:17 |
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| sandst1 | timeless_mbp: ah ok | 22:17 |
| timeless_mbp | if it were JSON it'd use <,> as a delim instead of <;> in random places | 22:17 |
| timeless_mbp | it's really closer to css | 22:18 |
| timeless_mbp | note that in js, you should have foo: {}, not foo {} | 22:18 |
| timeless_mbp | but css doesn't treat <end-of-line> as particularly magical | 22:18 |
| timeless_mbp | and it's clear that QML does | 22:18 |
| timeless_mbp | which makes it a really crappy cross between JS and CSS | 22:19 |
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| timeless_mbp | i'm 99% certain json doesn't allow for foo.bar:baz | 22:19 |
| timeless_mbp | it'd be foo:{bar:baz} | 22:19 |
| Venemo_N900 | timeless_mbp: they should have used some sort of xml, like xaml, instead of qml | 22:19 |
| timeless_mbp | Venemo_N900: *shrug* | 22:20 |
| RST38h | If it is really adhoc, these guys are running into possible problems in 6-12 months fromnow | 22:20 |
| sandst1 | wow. now that's a cool design | 22:20 |
| timeless_mbp | Venemo_N900: XUL and XAML both exist | 22:20 |
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| RST38h | Once the number of "magical" tricks exceeds the reasonablelimit | 22:20 |
| timeless_mbp | heck, they could use VB style ui | 22:20 |
| timeless_mbp | or delphi | 22:20 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: i pity anyone forced to write a parser for this | 22:20 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, i'm likely to be one of those poor souls | 22:21 |
| timeless_mbp | anyway, i think the syntax is probably more CSS like (not that it is) than JS like | 22:21 |
| sandst1 | definately more CSS than JS | 22:23 |
| RST38h | Ah writing the parser is easy, you do it adhoc | 22:23 |
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| berndhs | CSS sucks :) | 22:29 |
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| RST38h | syntax is ok | 22:30 |
| RST38h | The way it supplants the original HTML principles sucks | 22:30 |
| berndhs | CSS doesnt even have named constants | 22:30 |
| flavio | hello, I have installed meego sdk on openSUSE and now I have this problem: when I try to use meego-sdk-qmlviewer I get the following error: | 22:31 |
| flavio | /opt/meego/meego-sdk-qt/bin/qmlviewer: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib64/libQtXmlPatterns.so.4: undefined symbol: _ZN14QObjectPrivate15checkWindowRoleEv | 22:31 |
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| timeless_mbp | [timeless@konigsberg ~]$ c++filt | 22:40 |
| timeless_mbp | _ZN14QObjectPrivate15checkWindowRoleEv | 22:40 |
| timeless_mbp | QObjectPrivate::checkWindowRole() | 22:40 |
| timeless_mbp | http://blog.hartwork.org/?p=175 | 22:41 |
| timeless_mbp | it sounds like you're pulling in the wrong qt library | 22:41 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.mail-archive.com/qt-creator@trolltech.com/msg01256.html | 22:42 |
| flavio | timeless_mbp: I've already tried to adjust the LD_LIBRAY_PATH but it didn't help | 22:47 |
| flavio | and this is already done by the meego-sdk-qmlviewer script | 22:47 |
| timeless_mbp | flavio: so, you can ldd, strace, or ask ld.so for help | 22:49 |
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| timeless_mbp | LD_TRACE_LOADED_OBJECTS=1 | 22:49 |
| timeless_mbp | is one approach | 22:49 |
| timeless_mbp | LD_DEBUG=help | 22:49 |
| timeless_mbp | is another approach | 22:49 |
| timeless_mbp | i'd probably use one of the LD_ things (man ld.so) | 22:50 |
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| araujo | can somebody access the OBS repos atm? | 22:51 |
| berndhs | araujo: the pub or the closed ? | 22:53 |
| berndhs | both look like they are up from here | 22:54 |
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| araujo | berndhs, the internal one, .. mm.. zypper refresh isn't working | 22:55 |
| araujo | for me... | 22:55 |
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| berndhs | looks ok from here, they must have soemthing against you personally | 22:56 |
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| flavio | timeless_mbp: do you have libQtXmlPatterns.so.4 installed under /opt/meego/meego-sdk-qt4/lib{64} ? | 22:59 |
| flavio | because it's missing here | 22:59 |
| timeless_mbp | i don't have /opt | 23:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | oh, i have /opt/local | 23:00 |
| timeless_mbp | but nothing else in /opt :) | 23:00 |
| flavio | timeless_mbp: doesn't matter. I just wanted to know if you have libQtXmlPatterns.so somewhere under meego installation directory | 23:01 |
| lcuk | araujo, which repositories specifically? | 23:02 |
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| xMOLATZEN_DUx | aupa | 23:11 |
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| araujo | lcuk, Trunk:Testing | 23:17 |
| araujo | lcuk, can you access it? | 23:17 |
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| lcuk | araujo, just trying to find out which repositories I have enabled | 23:17 |
| araujo | zypper repos | 23:18 |
| lcuk | but zypper doesnt directly list the repository urls with "zypper repos" | 23:18 |
| lcuk | it only gives name and alias ;) | 23:18 |
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| araujo | check the repos.d/ dir | 23:19 |
| CosmoHill | have any of you heard of ksplice? | 23:19 |
| araujo | more specifically /etc/zypp/repos.d/ | 23:20 |
| lcuk | baseurl=http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/handset/repos/ia32/packages/ | 23:20 |
| lcuk | i have trunk daily for handset | 23:20 |
| lcuk | and i updated stuff last night hmm | 23:20 |
| araujo | lcuk, can you try this one: http://download.meego.com/live/Trunk:/Testing/standard/ | 23:22 |
| RST38h | lcuk: how usable is it? =) | 23:22 |
| lcuk | RST38h, in some ways its better than netbook | 23:23 |
| lcuk | but in others its still immature | 23:23 |
| lcuk | i am actually due to file a load of bugs | 23:23 |
| lcuk | but was hoping to hear back from some other filed things first | 23:24 |
| lcuk | araujo, you mean just replace the url in mine with that one? | 23:24 |
| lcuk | or add a new repo for that url | 23:24 |
| lcuk | RST38h, netbook UX drives me mad with its alt tab handling | 23:25 |
| lcuk | especially when theres multiple windows open | 23:25 |
| araujo | lcuk, add that new repo and try it | 23:25 |
| araujo | see if it works | 23:25 |
| lcuk | ok, a mo | 23:25 |
| araujo | and see if you can get the metadata with zypper refresh ... | 23:25 |
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| lcuk | Retrieving repository 'handset-araujo' metadata [done] | 23:29 |
| lcuk | Building repository 'handset-araujo' cache [done] | 23:29 |
| lcuk | it spincycled for a few seconds updating | 23:29 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: The netbook stuff is not very interesting, but the handset/tablet is eagerly awaited by many | 23:30 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Is there any progress on the tablet UI, anyway? | 23:30 |
| lcuk | sure RST38h - but the core bugs will remain unless they are fixed | 23:30 |
| araujo | thanks lcuk ! | 23:30 |
| araujo | mm.. | 23:30 |
| lcuk | like adhoc networking and mic input and stuff | 23:30 |
| RST38h | Never seen adhoc networking actually work, on anything | 23:31 |
| RST38h | Mic input is different though =) | 23:31 |
| lcuk | RST38h, I use it all the time on n900/lenovo/desktop | 23:31 |
| lcuk | and I have done for ages | 23:31 |
| RST38h | lcuky man | 23:31 |
| lcuk | for the longest time I had my n810 tlaking to windows desktop with it | 23:31 |
| lcuk | because I did not have a router | 23:32 |
| lcuk | and I use it whenever I am out and about :) | 23:32 |
| lcuk | and obviously it *does* work for some people | 23:32 |
| lcuk | because of the whole "free wireless internet" 'virus' | 23:32 |
| lcuk | which exists solely because of adhoc | 23:32 |
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