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| CosmoHill | DawnFoster: Updated it: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Community_device_program :) | 00:04 |
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| Jaffa | CosmoHill: Generally, style guides only have bullet points starting with capital letters if they end in a full stop; i.e. are complete sentences. | 00:05 |
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| Jaffa | CosmoHill: "Things I bought today:\n* apples\n* grapes\n* and bananas." | 00:06 |
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| * CosmoHill reads the page | 00:06 | |
| CosmoHill | it looks like their are full stops missing | 00:06 |
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| * Jaffa wonders if Texrat is trying to design the perfect system (which is the enemy of good) when there are currently 5 (IIRC) Pandaboards. | 00:08 | |
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| CosmoHill | does it look better overall? | 00:11 |
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| * CosmoHill is better at improving something rather than starting from scratch | 00:14 | |
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| smoku | Stskeeps, thx | 00:19 |
| CosmoHill | I wonder if http://www.system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=105 would be a good little computer for meego | 00:20 |
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| vgrade | Jaffa, did you see Tron at the weekend? | 00:28 |
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| crysaz | hundreds of nerds can't be wrong. tron legacy is what new star wars movies are for the original | 00:43 |
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| vgrade | crysaz, it was Jaffa's Voltaire quote which I think was used in the recent film | 00:46 |
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| smoku | crysaz, isn't it supposed to be? | 00:53 |
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| crysaz | what i am trying to say, is that the movie fails to capture original idea | 00:59 |
| crysaz | i did enjoy watching it, but it is still just a disney movie | 01:01 |
| smoku | what I am trying to say, is that it was designed to be so from the very beginning | 01:01 |
| crysaz | ouh, ok. that's a shame. it could be much more | 01:03 |
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| Vendetta | Create symlink /dev/root and then exit this shell to while booting | 02:18 |
| Vendetta | any idea? | 02:18 |
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| Vendetta | I am getting Create symlink /dev/root and then exit this shell to while bootin | 02:45 |
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| Termana | morning | 03:14 |
| CosmoHill | hey | 03:15 |
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| sumanth | hi. i want to debug on mobility code on meego sdk, any pointers on how can i get the mobility source code on meego sdk? | 07:40 |
| lardman | http://qt.nokia.com/products/qt-addons/mobility ? | 07:43 |
| lardman | though it may already be packaged and therefore available as a source package too | 07:43 |
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| sumanth | <lardman> thanks for the link i got the source code from rpm package from repo.meego.com itself but when i try to install it using rpm it says "rpm command not found" | 07:46 |
| lardman | hmm can't help there, I've not used the sdk, only the image builder | 07:46 |
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| hlzxy | sumanth: did you install in simulator? | 07:49 |
| sumanth | yes i have meego 1.1 sdk on my ubuntu machine there i want to install soruce code and build it | 07:50 |
| hlzxy | sumanth: and you have installed the command of 'rpm' | 07:51 |
| sumanth | hlzxy: i have rpm installed.. but it says i have to use alien command | 07:54 |
| sumanth | if use alien in my command it says mad not found | 07:55 |
| hlzxy | sumanth: you want use command 'rpmbuild ' or 'build' to build it ? show your command please | 07:55 |
| sumanth | sudo mad -t <target> rpm --install <rpmpackage> | 07:56 |
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| hlzxy | sumanth: you can try : add '--force-debian' to the end | 08:00 |
| sumanth | <hlzxy> thanks will try using it | 08:01 |
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| broK3ns0ul | yoyo | 08:25 |
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| broK3ns0ul | A fart in a glass is still a fart! | 08:30 |
| Tm_T | thank you for staying in channel topic | 08:35 |
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| joseph__ | hi, | 09:23 |
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| joseph__ | anybody here? | 09:24 |
| Myrtti | sure, in various states of awareness | 09:25 |
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| joseph__ | any suggest to hack meego kernel 1st? I mean "debug" | 09:32 |
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| Jaffa | vgrade: No, not yet. Lots of friends say it's excellent, though | 10:32 |
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| sivang | morning | 12:29 |
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| tzorvas___ | which are the available meeog handsets? | 12:35 |
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| CosmoHill | MeeGo can run on the Nokia N900 | 12:39 |
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| dcthang | someone know libkok integrated to meego repo? | 12:46 |
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| CosmoHill | dcthang: you can check repo.meego.com | 12:56 |
| dcthang | CosmoHill: yes, Ijust found it. Thanks :) | 12:57 |
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| sumanth | Hi. Is there any way by which i can make rpm download & install all dependancies automatically like dpkg | 13:06 |
| CosmoHill | yes, zypper | 13:07 |
| thiago | sumanth: I don't think dpkg does it either | 13:07 |
| thiago | you're mixing dpkg/rpm with apt/yum/zypper | 13:07 |
| CosmoHill | rpm and dpkg are packages | 13:07 |
| CosmoHill | apt-get manages the dpkg packages | 13:07 |
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| sumanth | yeah sorry i meant apt | 13:08 |
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| jeremiah | I'm hoping to remove the default menu from the IVI image. | 13:15 |
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| jeremiah | Does anyone have any recommendations on the best way to do that? | 13:15 |
| jeremiah | I don't want to permanently remove the code, just test another interface | 13:15 |
| dcthang | I see that zypper cannot list all files inside a package | 13:17 |
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| thiago | rpm can | 13:18 |
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| lcuk | jeremiah, that was partly reason for http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Desktop/Changing_Desktops | 13:21 |
| jeremiah | I'll go read that :) | 13:25 |
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| jeremiah | lcuk: It seems very handset / desktop specific. | 13:27 |
| jeremiah | I'll create something for IVI | 13:27 |
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| lcuk | jeremiah, that was the idea when we filed bug 10874 | 13:28 |
| _MeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10874 nor, Undecided, ---, elliot.smith, VERI FIXED, Multi UX Meego instructions writeup | 13:28 |
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| jeremiah | lcuk: What was the idea? To have a desktop switching tool for IVI or just for handset? | 13:29 |
| lcuk | jeremiah, being able to switch between available UXes | 13:30 |
| lcuk | so if (for instance) someone has netbook and handset and IVI installed they could switch | 13:30 |
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| jeremiah | Hmm. | 13:35 |
| jeremiah | That is going to be hard. And I don't think that the bug should be closed | 13:35 |
| jeremiah | Since there is no instructions on how to switch to the IVI interface for example. | 13:35 |
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| lcuk | reopen it then, I closed it because it proved the concept | 13:36 |
| lcuk | and worked for the offered ones | 13:36 |
| lcuk | the wiki page shows how it can be done and you can add to it since you have IVI experience | 13:36 |
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| jeremiah | I am investigating how to do this | 13:37 |
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| lcuk | roger | 13:38 |
| jeremiah | I'll document this and then integrate it into that page you've created. :) | 13:38 |
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| lcuk | jeremiah, \o great | 13:39 |
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| lcuk | anyone know if qgil got any further with his quest? http://twitter.com/quimgil/status/16932638845571072 | 14:06 |
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| lardman | I'm wondering whether there are any 7" ARM devices using the Tablet image | 14:18 |
| lcuk | lardman, which tablet image? | 14:19 |
| lardman | sorry UI | 14:19 |
| lardman | tablet ui stuff | 14:19 |
| Sage | at least no commercial devices AFAIK | 14:19 |
| lcuk | yes, which specifically | 14:19 |
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| Sage | ? | 14:20 |
| lardman | lcuk: any | 14:20 |
| dm8tbr | lardman: there is the a70. ask pupnik | 14:20 |
| lardman | dm8tbr: ok cheers | 14:20 |
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| dm8tbr | held back by bug 5616 ofc | 14:20 |
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| lardman | archos 70 I take it that is? | 14:20 |
| _MeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5616 nor, Undecided, 1.0.80.15, fathi.boudra, ASSI, Certain fonts are garbled | 14:20 |
| dm8tbr | yes | 14:20 |
| Stskeeps | we have a tablet image? | 14:20 |
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| lcuk | thats what I was wondering Stskeeps | 14:21 |
| lardman | likewise | 14:21 |
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| Termana | There is no open tablet UI in the MeeGo project at this time | 14:23 |
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| lardman | hmm, no gps and no forward facing camera | 14:24 |
| Termana | Besides, haven't you heard | 14:24 |
| Termana | SANTA DOESN'T GIVE PRESENTS TO NAUGHTY CHILDREN | 14:24 |
| Termana | :p | 14:25 |
| lcuk | handset works well on the ideapad and will obviously evolve more I expect | 14:25 |
| lardman | ideapad is intel atom though isn't it? | 14:25 |
| dm8tbr | *nod* | 14:25 |
| dm8tbr | so? | 14:25 |
| Termana | lcuk, at this stage, every other "tablet" device uses the same UI as it's phone counterpart - I see no reason why this really couldn't be the case for MeeGo | 14:26 |
| lardman | battery life...? | 14:26 |
| lardman | Termana: though the Android lot are moaning about that very fact | 14:26 |
| lcuk | Termana, yeah but theres certain oddities with the UX, certainly for hybrid devices | 14:27 |
| * tzorvas wants an AAVA from santa | 14:27 | |
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| Termana | lardman: I don't hear the Apple lot moaning, and I have to be honest I haven't really seen anyone moan about it for android, but it's possible | 14:27 |
| lardman | fair enough | 14:28 |
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| Termana | lcuk, particularly I think the fact that the multitasking view can spread out into a grid ala Maemo's multitasking view would look good on a tablet. | 14:28 |
| xxtjaxx | tzorvas: AAVA? | 14:28 |
| xharada | Hi, anybody has some experience running/using gst-dsp plugins in a beagleboard? | 14:28 |
| lardman | xxtjaxx: http://www.aavamobile.com/ | 14:29 |
| lcuk | Termana, yeah handset task switching is tiring | 14:29 |
| Stskeeps | there is two modes in code afaik | 14:29 |
| lcuk | yeah Stskeeps I heard too | 14:29 |
| Stskeeps | activatable with multitouch gesture, i think | 14:29 |
| Termana | That's what I meant, the fact that you could switch to the grid | 14:29 |
| Termana | (already there) | 14:30 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, well the ideapad is MT | 14:30 |
| lcuk | so once we get drivers up and running | 14:30 |
| lcuk | can test that | 14:30 |
| lcuk | unless theres a way now to activate? | 14:30 |
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| Termana | lcuk, hack the code to make it be the default? | 14:30 |
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| lcuk | hopefully not a code hack required? | 14:31 |
| lcuk | but we could followup and find out | 14:31 |
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| xharada | felipec, are you working with gst-dsp plugins? | 14:32 |
| Ameego_1 | hello everyone | 14:33 |
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| felipec | xharada: hi | 14:33 |
| felipec | yup, I'm the main developer | 14:33 |
| xxtjaxx | interesting though fringe like | 14:33 |
| xharada | quick question, Im getting the following error " from element /GstPipeline:pipeline0/GstDspVDec:dspvdec0: couldn't start node" | 14:33 |
| xharada | Im already loaded mailbox and bridgedriver, do you know what is missing? | 14:34 |
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| lcuk | felipec, does your dsp stuff bring you close to bug 10532 by any random chance (or does it impede you) | 14:34 |
| xharada | Im using the binaries provided in your project, and gst-dsp-0.7 | 14:34 |
| _MeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10532 nor, Medium, ---, yan.i.li, NEW, No audio input from microphone on meegoconf netbook | 14:34 |
| felipec | xharada: the socket node is present? is it capable of playing the clip? | 14:34 |
| Stskeeps | lcup, dsp is mostly a omap3 thing in this regard | 14:35 |
| xharada | im using the plugin directly in the pipeline filesrc location=/home/meego/dump.vid ! dspvdec ! filesink location=testttt | 14:35 |
| felipec | lcuk: yeah... OMAP3 C64x+ DSP | 14:36 |
| lcuk | i thought so Stskeeps but you never know :) | 14:36 |
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| lardman | does the bridge spit out messages to dmesg still? | 14:36 |
| felipec | xharada: that won't work | 14:36 |
| xharada | Should I open the socket before start the pipeline? How? using that dynreg? | 14:37 |
| Termana | Someone really ought to slap whoever named the bug like that. "meegoconf netbook" shouldn't be in the bug tracker to indicate what the piece of hardware is | 14:37 |
| felipec | filesrc would dump buffers of 4K, the decoder needs a frame per buffer | 14:37 |
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| felipec | xharada: you need a demuxer: filesrc location=test.avi ! avidemux ! dspvdec ! fakesink | 14:37 |
| xharada | interesting, then, I should use the h264parse before | 14:38 |
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| felipec | xharada: if it's a raw H.264 yeah | 14:38 |
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| felipec | but don't trust h264parse so much; it's not so widely used | 14:38 |
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| xharada | xharada, ok. Tested here and doesnt worked, in fact, im try to use it in a mpegtsdemux pipeline. filesrc location=/home/meego/dump.ts ! mpegtsdemux program-number=59224 ! h264parse ! dspvdec ! filesink | 14:39 |
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| xharada | but, that error "couldn't start node" is related to buffer size? | 14:40 |
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| xharada | Im wondering if I missing something in the DSP initialization | 14:41 |
| xharada | felipec, Im getting the following errors in dmesg: procwrap_detach: deprecated dspbridge ioctl | 14:42 |
| felipec | xharada: mpegtsdemux would be demuxer, then you don't need the h264parse | 14:42 |
| felipec | xharada: are you sure it's a main profile stream? | 14:42 |
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| felipec | xharada: ignore that warning | 14:42 |
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| tzorvas | how can i have aava mobile device? | 14:43 |
| xharada | felipec, hhmm, maybe is it a baseline profile | 14:43 |
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| xharada | felipec, do you have any sample file that I can use to test? That way I can test if the dsp config in may board is ok | 14:45 |
| xharada | after that, I can test if my pipeline is fine | 14:45 |
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| felipec | xharada: I would use ffmpeg to convert a random clip: ffmpeg -i foo.mp4 -s qvga test.avi | 14:47 |
| felipec | it would generate an MPEG-4 clip that should be easy to play | 14:47 |
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| xharada | then: filesrc ! avidemux ! dspvdec ! xvimagesink should work? | 14:48 |
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| xharada | felipec, thanks. One last question, Is there some way to use the dsp with a normal user (meego user), instead of the root user? When Im trying to use the dspvdec in a pipeline with meego_user, the following error happens: dsp init failed | 14:50 |
| Stskeeps | xharada: set up udev rules i guess | 14:51 |
| xharada | Stskeeps, thanks | 14:52 |
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| jeremiah | Is there any way to clear out the old packages in /var/cache/zypp/packages/{foo} ? | 15:06 |
| jeremiah | I'm not sure why all that older cruft is kept around the system - is there a reason for multiple packages to be there? | 15:07 |
| X-Fade | zypper clean? | 15:07 |
| felipec | xharada: it should work as user... if not, then there's something wrong with udev rules | 15:07 |
| jeremiah | ah, cool. :) | 15:07 |
| felipec | changing the permissions of /dev/DspBridge might do the trick | 15:07 |
| jeremiah | X-Fade: Yeah - that gave me 800 Megs back! Yay! | 15:08 |
| jeremiah | Thanks | 15:08 |
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| xharada | felipec, thanks, that worked too | 15:09 |
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| jeremiah | Signature verification failed for file 'repomd.xml' from repository 'handset'. | 15:10 |
| jeremiah | ^^ Is this a known problem? | 15:10 |
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| xharada | felipec, just test it here with a file, and Im getting a new error now: map_buffer: buffer not aligned and gstdsp_got_error: algo error. | 15:17 |
| xharada | thats normal? | 15:18 |
| xharada | It seems just a file issue, so, the DSP is working correclty? | 15:18 |
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| felipec | xharada: the kernel needs to be configured without CONFIG_TIDSPBRIDGE_CACHE_LINE_CHECK | 15:19 |
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| xharada | felipec, thanks. Just that config parameter must be uncheck in the kernel? what about the mempool, timeout and other stuff, should I change any of thoses too? | 15:27 |
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| felipec | xharada: I think CONFIG_TIDSPBRIDGE_DEBUG might cause issues in latest kernels, CONFIG_TIDSPBRIDGE_RECOVERY=y is a must | 15:28 |
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| felipec | CONFIG_TIDSPBRIDGE_MEMPOOL_SIZE=0x600000 is also important | 15:28 |
| felipec | the rest can be off | 15:28 |
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| xharada | felipec, great. I'll re-create the kernel now :) | 15:29 |
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| araujo | fabo++ | 17:01 |
| lbt | hehe.... "rpm changelog format : invented to ensure that amazon's mechanical turk has plenty of parsing work to do" | 17:01 |
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| lcuk | :O lbt | 17:02 |
| lcuk | where did you read that | 17:02 |
| lcuk | cos its quite awesome | 17:03 |
| lbt | my own summary of just how 'special' rpm is | 17:03 |
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| lcuk | yeah | 17:04 |
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| lcuk | lbt, are you keeping notes about all this | 17:04 |
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| lbt | meh... no-one cares | 17:04 |
| lcuk | don't we have to care? at least to some degree? | 17:05 |
| lbt | I tried | 17:06 |
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| lcuk | lbt, you have a beer waiting in #meego-bar | 17:07 |
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| lbt | it's salty with my tears... | 17:07 |
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| lcuk | :( thats not good | 17:08 |
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| lbt | I'm looking at Nokia's QA process and it's cool ... but then I look at what lies beneath... | 17:08 |
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| lcuk | lbt, is this specific rpm issues or contents of the packages themselves | 17:09 |
| lbt | it's all kinds of crap | 17:09 |
| lbt | I'm only looking at changelogs at the moment | 17:09 |
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| lbt | they have no meaningful version # | 17:09 |
| lbt | that's problem number 1 | 17:09 |
| lbt | they have no format for the headers | 17:09 |
| lcuk | yeah, at least in debian there is a specific requirement | 17:10 |
| lbt | it's not hard, really | 17:10 |
| lbt | the changelogs change over time | 17:10 |
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| lbt | ie old entries are edited or removed | 17:10 |
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| lcuk | is it something that treams can retroactively run over and cure "within reason" and to fill in at least some of the blanks? | 17:10 |
| lcuk | lbt - heh thats not just an rpm thing | 17:11 |
| lcuk | someone on maemo was uploading package to maemo.org and was wiping out changelog each time | 17:11 |
| lbt | no. but packaging is one of the points where we get serious about QA | 17:11 |
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| lcuk | of course | 17:11 |
| mwichmann | packaging quality is very hard, not least because the packaging activity is in a sense separate from the base source | 17:12 |
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| lcuk | having very good changelogs with clean versions is super important with the obs branching and duplications I gather | 17:12 |
| mwichmann | ... what I mean is, changelogs could capture version control commits in theory | 17:13 |
| mwichmann | but those aren't necessarily the same as the changes made in packaging | 17:13 |
| lbt | mwichmann: we can't even specify a changelog header http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Guidelines#Changelogs | 17:14 |
| lbt | we can't even get the version number into the changelog ! | 17:14 |
| lbt | this isn't "hard" | 17:14 |
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| lbt | it's lazy | 17:14 |
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| lbt | it's "SEP" | 17:14 |
| lbt | and the closed nature of MeeGo means it doesn't get fixed | 17:14 |
| lbt | closed = in a physical room somewhere | 17:15 |
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| lbt | I've brought this up several times ... aran patted me on the head and said that "it's complex, don't worry" | 17:15 |
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| lbt | no-one replies on the mailing list | 17:16 |
| lcuk | lbt, have you found any packages which do it right | 17:16 |
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| lbt | all the ones in debian | 17:16 |
| lcuk | i mean now, here, in meego | 17:16 |
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| lbt | and oddly .... most debian-based devs | 17:16 |
| lcuk | are the reference applications following the reference | 17:16 |
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| lbt | the reference sucks | 17:17 |
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| lbt | OK - there are only 2 main issues: the version number is only a partial version # | 17:17 |
| lbt | the header format is freeform | 17:18 |
| lbt | we have a spec for writing bug # and almost everyone ignores it | 17:18 |
| lbt | http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Guidelines#External_References | 17:18 |
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| * lcuk hmms | 17:19 | |
| lbt | someone looked at BMC# and thought ... "oh, damn, a bug# that's unlikely to be confusing to vendors working with MeeGo - I'll use a much more generic #FEA for features" | 17:20 |
| jonnor | lbt: revoke their commit rights, require them to send patches for changes untill they get their act together :) | 17:20 |
| lbt | jonnor: I'm talking about the release engineering team | 17:20 |
| lbt | don't worry.... you won't find them on #meego so they won't shout at me :D | 17:20 |
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| lcuk | lbt, specific examples? (with url to the git) | 17:20 |
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| lbt | git? | 17:21 |
| jonnor | same principle, you just have to make someone else do it | 17:21 |
| lbt | you think we keep changes in git? | 17:21 |
| ali1234 | heh, that would be way to sensible | 17:21 |
| lbt | VCS has been rejected. Mails with patches please... and no version control of the patches either! | 17:21 |
| jonnor | WHAT | 17:21 |
| lbt | much easier to do distributed development like that | 17:21 |
| ali1234 | oh but VCS is ok as long as it is quilt... | 17:22 |
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| lbt | indeed | 17:22 |
| ali1234 | or one of those other teerrible ones | 17:22 |
| ali1234 | you know, the ones that only packagers understand | 17:22 |
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| lcuk | lbt at least in the case of handset photo app, specific code changes are made live on git ( http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-handset-ux/meego-handset-photo?page=1 ) then imported to obs and used ( http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-commits/2010-October/007229.html ) | 17:41 |
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| ali1234 | lcuk: that's pretty standard but the problem as i understand it is there is no sensible way of relating a particular package version to a particular git revision | 17:43 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, of course | 17:43 |
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| lcuk | thats to be expected | 17:43 |
| lbt | or indeed of relating a changelog entry to an rpm | 17:43 |
| lbt | lcuk: really there should be a packaging branch or project too | 17:43 |
| CosmoHill | lcuk: riding a bike in the snow is so werid | 17:44 |
| ali1234 | lcuk: it's to be expected? really? maybe if you are totally jaded :) | 17:44 |
| Venemo | hi guys | 17:44 |
| lcuk | lbt - in every project I have ever worked on on any OS, there has been some sort of packaging/versioning informaiton maintained iwth the app, which can then be used upstream, it does seem lacking to completely remove it from the picture totally | 17:44 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, yeah I remember oding it years ago | 17:45 |
| lbt | so... given a changelog entry that says "Fixed bug BMC#6644" .... you'd think you could look at that and decide which rpm contains it...... nope | 17:45 |
| Venemo | lcuk, are you talking about the missing .spec files? :) | 17:45 |
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| ali1234 | so, seems to me that this is going to cause all kinds of trouble with security bugs | 17:48 |
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| ali1234 | how will i know if the RPM has the patch? | 17:48 |
| lbt | ali1234: seriously? anaZ said you should get the rpms and extract the changelogs and diff them :) | 17:48 |
| Venemo | lol. | 17:48 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt, how about doing it oppositely? have OBS post in the bugs when the change initially goes in? | 17:49 |
| Stskeeps | post in the bug reported | 17:49 |
| lbt | I had wondered about OBS managing the changelog a bit more | 17:49 |
| lbt | but I think first we need to get it right manually | 17:49 |
| lbt | step 1 : get the version number into the changelog | 17:50 |
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| lbt | step 2 : get the version numbering 'fixed' | 17:50 |
| ali1234 | i really love how when i get updates on ubuntu, i can see *right in the update manager* the advisory numbers of the security bugs that have been fixed in each deb version | 17:51 |
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| lcuk | lbt, agreed, but source packages need to maintain a set of meta information about themselves | 17:51 |
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| Stskeeps | we have that too, in our changelogs, afaik | 17:51 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: no, we don't | 17:52 |
| lcuk | and in maemo up until now its been in the debian folder, now it is magic somewhere | 17:52 |
| lbt | we have a partial version number | 17:52 |
| Stskeeps | CVE# : | 17:52 |
| Stskeeps | i meant | 17:52 |
| lbt | oh, we have those, yes | 17:52 |
| ali1234 | but if the changelog doesn't match to a package, how do i know which RPM version has the fix? | 17:52 |
| lbt | :) | 17:53 |
| ali1234 | i guess i don't... | 17:53 |
| lbt | see if you get hacked.... | 17:53 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt, maybe abuse 'vendor' field? like .fc12 existed before? | 17:53 |
| Stskeeps | .meego .meego_trunk_testing.. | 17:53 |
| lbt | I made a complete proposal on packaging mailing list | 17:53 |
| lbt | I raised this 3 times now | 17:54 |
| lbt | zero interest from meego packagers | 17:54 |
| lcuk | is it packagers themselves that know this? surely the person who knows which version and whats been fixed is the person making the code | 17:54 |
| Stskeeps | personally i found it difficult to evaluate | 17:55 |
| lcuk | having no fixed location in the source is the problem | 17:55 |
| lbt | the changelog is not allowed to contain the rpm version | 17:55 |
| lbt | by design | 17:55 |
| lbt | it can only contain the first few digits | 17:55 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt, lets back up a bit, what problem are we trying to solve? | 17:56 |
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| ali1234 | lcuk: it's the packagers, and the security team, who are supposed to know this, because the upstream code won't get into the distro unless they backport it (in a stable release) | 17:56 |
| lbt | 2 problems : changelog doesn't contain version # | 17:56 |
| lbt | version number doesn't support branching/upgrades | 17:56 |
| Stskeeps | further up than that | 17:57 |
| lcuk | ali1234, screw backports for an instant, the developer writing the initial code has to be able to keep track | 17:57 |
| lbt | general bitching about the changelog format being ".*" | 17:57 |
| Stskeeps | ie, the practical issue we try to solve | 17:57 |
| lbt | if you look in a changelog you can't tell which rpm contains a specific entry | 17:57 |
| Stskeeps | changelog being the one in weekly release? | 17:58 |
| lbt | any rpm changelog | 17:58 |
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| lbt | other than "the rpm containing the changelog has all the entries" | 17:58 |
| lbt | this is a problem for QA when we look at changelogs outside a package | 17:59 |
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| ali1234 | well maybe that can be automated... 1. take each and every rpm, 2. check it onto a git tree, 3. generate "fixed" changelogs, 4. publish them somewhere | 17:59 |
| lbt | it's a problem when the changelog is supposed to be the authoritative source of version/change data | 17:59 |
| ali1234 | ...repeat for all packages... | 17:59 |
| lbt | ali1234: I almost have to do that | 17:59 |
| Stskeeps | ignorant me, but doesnt a list of changed packages (commits) along with changelog solve that? | 18:00 |
| lbt | "the changelog is supposed to be the authoritative source" | 18:00 |
| lbt | if "the packaging mbox" is the authoritative source then I could cope with that :) | 18:00 |
| Stskeeps | lets seperate rpm changelog and release changelog :P | 18:01 |
| lbt | what's a release changelog? | 18:01 |
| lbt | do you mean rel notes? | 18:01 |
| Stskeeps | check meego-releases | 18:01 |
| Stskeeps | lately for examples | 18:01 |
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| lbt | mmm.... that'll be a ml I missed.. | 18:02 |
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| Stskeeps | release engineering and qa daily work mailing list | 18:02 |
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| lcuk | can we use a specific example | 18:03 |
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| shnazul | hello peeps | 18:03 |
| lbt | yeah ... I just checked m-packaging for an announcement ... silly me | 18:03 |
| lcuk | bug 6644 | 18:03 |
| Stskeeps | existed before m-p :P | 18:03 |
| _MeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6644 maj, High, ---, ziv.chang, REOP, [REG] meegophotos crashes when closing it after viewing photos in single mode | 18:03 |
| lcuk | fixed in git | 18:03 |
| ali1234 | tooooo many mailing lists..... :( | 18:03 |
| lcuk | http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-handset-ux/meego-handset-photo/commit/bb68f9b7dbce4467398bfbc800823be03abe1a99 | 18:04 |
| lcuk | how do I know if its fixed on my device | 18:04 |
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| shnazul | guys, i'm sure you get this a lot (and i'll seem like a whiner) , but i'm in love with my n900, and i want to know if it'll be in safe hands with meego... | 18:04 |
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| ali1234 | what guarantee is there regarding backporting bugs? if i buy a hypothetical meego 1.2 device, is any bug ever going to be fixed, or will i just get told to buy the new device when it is released? | 18:05 |
| lcuk | shnazul, since it will still be in your hands, how much do you trust yourself? | 18:05 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: OK ... | 18:05 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: right... I want to create release changelogs/notes/announcements using rpm changelogs | 18:06 |
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| shnazul | lcuk, i'm just curious... i'd like to know if i should wait for meego, or if i shouldn't bother and just go with nitdroid | 18:07 |
| lcuk | shnazul, why are those paths mutually incompatible? | 18:07 |
| shnazul | coz i don't want what happened to n8x0 to happen with me | 18:07 |
| lcuk | have cake and eat it too | 18:07 |
| shnazul | i wanna know if i can trust nokia or not :D | 18:07 |
| ali1234 | seems to me that this stuff is not important to the core developers because they know it will never be an issue... bug reports from end users will be useless because they will always be using a firmware that is a version behind, and as such, those bugs will never get fixed anyway. so there is no need for a decent changelog, cos nothing is going to get fixed... hows that for jaded? | 18:07 |
| lcuk | shnazul, install whatever you want on YOUR n900 | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: ok, so, this should be generated with boss eventually right? ie, if obs sees BMC#blahblah in a changelog and a rpm was generated, this serves as input for your release changelog | 18:08 |
| lcuk | meego grows stronger every day and features are added and bugs are fixed and obs grows ever more twisty | 18:08 |
| lbt | yes | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | ie, when entering the prj, like trunk or :testing | 18:08 |
| shnazul | lcuk, you sound like those bogus fortune tellers, i don't like your answers :) | 18:08 |
| shnazul | i want someone to tell me the direction of meego | 18:08 |
| lcuk | shnazul, meh | 18:09 |
| shnazul | is it developed for n900? | 18:09 |
| Stskeeps | yes, quite actively | 18:09 |
| lcuk | yes | 18:09 |
| shnazul | or is it develeoped with a starting test platform as n900, then the final product won't be compatible with n900? | 18:09 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: however.... at that point the changelog is already there | 18:09 |
| shnazul | lcuk,thank you, that's all i was asking for :) | 18:09 |
| lbt | and ... there is no 'proper' version number | 18:09 |
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| lbt | this is relevant when meego fixes a bug and there is no change to upstream code | 18:10 |
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| lcuk | shnazul, you asked loaded question yourself initially :) | 18:10 |
| lbt | so... entry 1: version 0.1.1 : pkged | 18:10 |
| Stskeeps | shnazul: nokia n900 is a reference device for meego | 18:10 |
| lbt | entry 2: version 0.1.1 : fixed bug#X | 18:11 |
| lbt | entry 3: version 0.1.1 : fixed bug#Y | 18:11 |
| lbt | note the version is the same | 18:11 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt, right - but obs knows what rpms are generated | 18:11 |
| lbt | there will be 3 rpms pkg-0.1.1-1.rpm, pkg-0.1.1-2.rpm, pkg-0.1.1-3.rpm | 18:11 |
| lbt | now... look at the changelog | 18:11 |
| Stskeeps | and in same repo, its linear | 18:11 |
| lbt | I have pkg-0.1.1-2.rpm ... which bug is fixed | 18:12 |
| lbt | it is possible (and easy) to have -R go up when a developer makes a small typo | 18:12 |
| lbt | no changelog needed | 18:12 |
| lcuk | why isnt a changelog needed? | 18:13 |
| lcuk | he changed source | 18:13 |
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| lbt | no, he typo'ed the spec | 18:13 |
| lcuk | oh, thats not developer? but same thing | 18:13 |
| lbt | quick tweak and re-upload and the -R increases | 18:14 |
| lcuk | changes imply changes and should be documented | 18:14 |
| lbt | yeah ... "humans" | 18:14 |
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| lbt | hehe ... and actually that's the problem. MeeGo isn't a well oiled machine | 18:14 |
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| lbt | it creaks | 18:14 |
| andyross | Stated differently: The build number at the end isn't part of the package, really. The value and sequence depends on the build order of the rest of the repository. | 18:15 |
| lbt | yep | 18:16 |
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| ali1234 | isn't that sort of a failing of OBS? | 18:16 |
| lbt | and ...if a vendor takes the inputs and starts from scratch then MeeGo won't even work | 18:16 |
| lbt | ali1234: no... gcc fails if your code sucks | 18:16 |
| lbt | OBS has a specific set of behaviours | 18:17 |
| lbt | and includes a macro | 18:17 |
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| lbt | Moblin decided to use the macro in a certain way | 18:17 |
| lbt | and actually suse do this too | 18:17 |
| Stskeeps | lbt,will split for a bit (travelling atm), will read afterwards what you said | 18:17 |
| andyross | It's a failing of the metaphor. I'm a developer and release pkg-1.2.3. Someone packages it. But then one of its dependencies gets bumped, so it has to be recompiled. You need some kind of different version tag to tell the difference. | 18:17 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: np... it's on the ml | 18:17 |
| lbt | and I'm getting worked up enough to have another crack at them :) | 18:17 |
| ali1234 | do it | 18:17 |
| lbt | I can't "not care" for long ;) | 18:18 |
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| lcuk | if I wanted to make use of OpenSoundControl (OSC, multicast synth/instrument library well supported in other OSes and frameworks) and put the app on ovi, I would have problems afaik because of the dependency issue. | 18:57 |
| * lcuk hmms | 18:57 | |
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| DrWilken | Quick question - Are the new daily N900 images eMMC ready? I.e. do they have the kernel placed in the 3rd partition so they're usable by uboot? | 19:01 |
| DrWilken | (FAT partition) | 19:01 |
| Stskeeps | yes, but that isnt 'emmc ready' | 19:02 |
| Stskeeps | just uboot ready | 19:02 |
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| DrWilken | OK ;) Thx. | 19:03 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt, freenode sponsorship would be more appealing if their GRF process wasnt a /dev/null (sent in feb) and expedited grf too leading same way.. | 21:29 |
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| X-Fade | Stskeeps: It only took me 3 years for maemo :) | 21:30 |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, perhaps the two issues could be combined into one :) | 21:31 |
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| Stskeeps | then it would technically be a bribe | 21:31 |
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| ali1234 | asking on #freenode seems to help things along, from what i have seen while idling there | 21:34 |
| Stskeeps | we tried and got told about expedited grf :P | 21:35 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, GRF system is hosted here http://dev.freenode.net/GMS | 21:36 |
| lcuk | all volunteer done | 21:36 |
| lcuk | only certain folks can access the data | 21:36 |
| lcuk | or rather: | 21:37 |
| lcuk | "Under a volunteer-only system the current process is too costly in time and money, and we are committed to develop a replacement. This is the Group Management System, which is being worked on when time and availability of volunteers allow (freenode is desperately seeking coders, for this and other projects)." | 21:37 |
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| Stskeeps | yes, but its been underway for ages :P | 21:37 |
| Stskeeps | anyhow, sleep time for me | 21:37 |
| lcuk | more info: http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml | 21:38 |
| lcuk | gnite Stskeeps | 21:38 |
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| lcuk | twitter question: Supposing I have an #OSS #App for #Meego, how do I make it available on every #UX ? do I use #Ovi or #Appup or as currently community #obs? http://twitter.com/lcuk/status/17285640563458048 | 21:48 |
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| ali1234 | if it is OSS you use the community OBS, if not OSS, you are basically screwed right now (not that there are any devices anyway...) | 21:51 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, hm | 21:52 |
| CosmoHill | but when there are devices, you will be screwed | 21:52 |
| lcuk | just because its OSS should not block me as the author from sellign it | 21:52 |
| lcuk | it might be complex to configure from source etc | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | pretty much yeah. looking forward to immense appstore fragmentation :( | 21:52 |
| lcuk | some people are happy to pay for encapsulated experience :) | 21:53 |
| lcuk | ali1234, I mentioned a few times in the past | 21:53 |
| lcuk | would adore a meego mall :) | 21:53 |
| Bostik | lcuk: the term, I believe, is "cost of convenience" :) | 21:53 |
| * lcuk even said he would open an app store store somewhere | 21:53 | |
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| lcuk | "get your app stores here, nice and fresh" | 21:54 |
| ali1234 | make an app store, sell the app store client on all existing app stores | 21:54 |
| ali1234 | this certainly won't make things far worse :) | 21:54 |
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| ali1234 | appup basically is an app store store though | 21:54 |
| ali1234 | or rather, it's a white box appstore that anyone can rebrand for their device | 21:54 |
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| Umeaboy | Hi! | 21:55 |
| CosmoHill | hello | 21:55 |
| lcuk | ali1234, amybarton is also suggesting appup :) | 21:55 |
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| ali1234 | well yeah. see your question doesn't really make sense unfortunately... you specified "all UX" - but i suspect what you meant was "all meego devices" | 21:56 |
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| Umeaboy | When wanting to install Meego on a tablet, does that installation empty the drive at the same time? | 21:56 |
| Umeaboy | Or is that something I have to do with gParted or something similar? | 21:57 |
| lcuk | ali1234, well.. | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | Umeaboy: it can do. it tells you what it is going to do and gives you some options | 21:57 |
| lcuk | I have meego core + netbook + handset on one device | 21:57 |
| jonnor | Umeaboy: the meego netbook ux gives you a pretty standard GNU/Linux desktop distro intaller (graphical) | 21:57 |
| lcuk | but yes | 21:57 |
| Umeaboy | Okey. | 21:57 |
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| jonnor | Its a lot like the Fedora one. It might actually be that one for all I know | 21:58 |
| Umeaboy | Do I have to root my Kendo to be able to empty it's preinstalled distro? | 21:58 |
| Umeaboy | Or can I do it without root? | 21:58 |
| jonnor | What is a Kendo? | 21:58 |
| lcuk | its like a male Barbiedo | 21:59 |
| ali1234 | lcuk, multiple UX on 1 device in theory should not be a problem, as long as the UX all use a standard way of getting icons and such, and your app is adaptable to different screen sizes etc | 21:59 |
| Umeaboy | jonnor: Similar to Samsung Galaxy Tab. | 21:59 |
| lcuk | ali1234, yup | 21:59 |
| ali1234 | basically if it doesn't work, i would consider that a bug, possibly in the spec | 21:59 |
| lcuk | yup | 22:00 |
| ali1234 | FDO specifics where you are supposed to put .desktop files for your menus which should be cross-UX IMO | 22:00 |
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| ali1234 | but my opinion doesn't count for much | 22:00 |
| * lcuk has app idea that needs to talk to different devices in local area | 22:00 | |
| lcuk | ali1234, :) of course it does | 22:00 |
| ali1234 | but making an app cross-UX has nothing to do with app stores.......... | 22:01 |
| jonnor | Umeaboy: ah, sorry, I assumed a standard x86 tablet PC | 22:01 |
| lcuk | ali1234, it does if I consider end to end stuff | 22:02 |
| lcuk | and management of updates etc | 22:02 |
| ali1234 | well you're going to have to deal with both ovi and appup then | 22:02 |
| lcuk | submitting a new patch to one place is easier than having to run around to all | 22:02 |
| ali1234 | and probably a few others | 22:02 |
| ali1234 | may as well port it to iphone and android while you're at it | 22:03 |
| lcuk | nahh meego will run on those devices soon enough | 22:03 |
| lcuk | so no point in wasting effort ;) | 22:03 |
| ali1234 | meego will run on android devices...... hahaha | 22:03 |
| CosmoHill | lcuk top gear on bbc2 and bbcHD | 22:04 |
| jonnor | Umeaboy: installing Meego on such a device is not like installing it on a computer | 22:04 |
| lcuk | ali1234? android is just a linux with crispy coating, scrape it off and replace with meego | 22:04 |
| Umeaboy | jonnor: http://img.rumia.co.uk/images/evg4dl20a04nwqww43h.jpg | 22:04 |
| ali1234 | don't forget windows 7, windows phone, ubuntu... mac os x is getting an appstore soon too | 22:04 |
| ali1234 | allegedly | 22:04 |
| Umeaboy | The Android-version that came with this device doesn't work properly. | 22:05 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, will watch on iplayer | 22:05 |
| ali1234 | android uses a totally different driver mechanic, replacing it with "real" linux is not so easy | 22:05 |
| lcuk | ali1234, sure it does | 22:05 |
| lcuk | but go and sit in #meego-arm | 22:05 |
| lcuk | plenty of porting going on there | 22:05 |
| Umeaboy | I even went back to the store & they saw the problem, but they couldn't fix it. | 22:05 |
| CosmoHill | I've just seen the trailer and all I can say is SWEEEEEEEEET | 22:05 |
| Umeaboy | Android has turned OpenSource now. | 22:05 |
| ali1234 | did you notice that unnofficial android ports can't access the android appstore? | 22:05 |
| ali1234 | think meego will be any different? | 22:05 |
| Umeaboy | AOSP | 22:06 |
| jonnor | ali1234: there is no Meego appstore :p | 22:06 |
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| ali1234 | exactly, that's why unnofficial 3rd party meego ports won't have access to any app store except the community repos :) | 22:06 |
| ali1234 | the AOSP also lacks the appstore components... | 22:07 |
| javispedro | which will be probably where all the interesting apps, if maemo is to be any example. | 22:07 |
| ali1234 | true enough | 22:07 |
| ali1234 | i'm just sayin... | 22:07 |
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| Umeaboy | Can I clean the device with Gparted? | 22:07 |
| Umeaboy | Empty it. | 22:07 |
| thiago | delete all partitions in the partition table | 22:08 |
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| Umeaboy | thiago: Okey. | 22:10 |
| Umeaboy | thiago from #mandriva ? ;) | 22:10 |
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| thiago | it's the same network, so the same person | 22:10 |
| Umeaboy | Yaaaaaaaaaaay! | 22:10 |
| Umeaboy | How are you? | 22:10 |
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| Umeaboy | Good to see you here. | 22:11 |
| Umeaboy | I'm in a good mood. | 22:11 |
| * thiago has always been here | 22:11 | |
| thiago | for as long as "here" has existed, that is | 22:11 |
| Umeaboy | Okey. | 22:11 |
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| Umeaboy | I'll reboot with the gParted-disc. | 22:12 |
| Umeaboy | Wish me luck. ;) | 22:12 |
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| Venemo | hey :) | 22:16 |
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| lcuk | hi Venemo | 22:17 |
| Venemo | hi lcuk :) | 22:17 |
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| lpotter_ | thiago: hey, then you can confirm or deny the big bang theory once and for all! | 22:26 |
| lcuk | what happens if i press this button. | 22:26 |
| broK3ns0ul | just got back from my sons funeral | 22:26 |
| broK3ns0ul | dropped dead from viral pneumonia | 22:26 |
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| Umeaboy | Hi again! | 22:37 |
| Umeaboy | I used the gParted-disc I burnt a long time ago & I couldn't see it get mounted. | 22:38 |
| Umeaboy | I reconnected it & checked in dmesg. | 22:38 |
| Umeaboy | It was identified. | 22:38 |
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| sabotage | anyone else seeing problems with build.pub.meego.com, in particular, can't access any of the projects (home or otherwise)? | 22:40 |
| hiptobecubic | So meego netbook looks like it will be great someday | 22:40 |
| hiptobecubic | Right now it has a lot of little minor things | 22:40 |
| sabotage | lbt, X-Fade? | 22:41 |
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| hiptobecubic | Like hard freezes and kernel panics | 22:41 |
| hiptobecubic | :) | 22:41 |
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| Umeaboy | thiago: If the device is identified, shouldn't it get mounted by gParted? | 22:42 |
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| thiago | I don't know | 22:43 |
| thiago | I've never used gparted | 22:43 |
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| Umeaboy | Okey. | 22:44 |
| Umeaboy | I just saw that my version of gParted is really old. | 22:44 |
| Umeaboy | Oooooops. | 22:44 |
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| MohammadAG | ali1234, it seems Matan got mmc 2 working (but it's not reliable) | 22:49 |
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| lbt | ping sabotage | 22:58 |
| lbt | sabotage: we're doing some work on the obs... wasn't supposed to have much effect | 22:59 |
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| broK3ns0ul | anyonne tried to shoot up pod tea? | 23:01 |
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| thp | is there a feature request for userland (qt) multitouch support in meego netbook on the s10-3t or should i file a new one? | 23:03 |
| lcuk | thp, http://bugs.meego.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=multitouch | 23:04 |
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| lcuk | thp, though I saw lots on the ML about getting MT support running, a FEA would be preferable | 23:08 |
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| sabotage | lbt: np, I pinged adam too, he informed me to take a chill pill :P | 23:10 |
| sabotage | lbt: may I suggest a note/message on the status page until it's resolved? | 23:12 |
| mwichmann | there's a lot to the question, right? like a ux that isn't even designed for touch? | 23:13 |
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| lcuk | mwichmann, ? | 23:15 |
| thp | lcuk: so i'll open a new one then | 23:15 |
| lcuk | thp, yeah sounds reasonable | 23:15 |
| mwichmann | "userland multitouch support" - my claim is even if it happens, it's not that useful if nothing knows about it | 23:15 |
| lcuk | mwichmann, handset ui runs happily on the ideapad | 23:16 |
| lcuk | (for varying degrees, bugs still exist ofc) | 23:17 |
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| * lcuk vanishes anyway \o | 23:17 | |
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| mwichmann | well, yeah, but it's not a handset either.... | 23:24 |
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| thp | lcukn900: vote for it.. http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11625 | 23:26 |
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| Umeaboy | thiago: Can we PM? I'm now in Mandriva & a small issue has appeared in diskdrake | 23:27 |
| thiago | I don't use diskdrake either | 23:28 |
| Umeaboy | Okey. | 23:28 |
| Umeaboy | What DO you use? | 23:28 |
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| lcuk | thp, bug 11625 you mean? | 23:31 |
| _MeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11625 enh, Undecided, ---, gavin.hindman, NEW, [FEA] Add userspace support for Lenovo S10-3t multi-touch screen in Qt | 23:31 |
| thiago | Umeaboy: nothing | 23:31 |
| thiago | Umeaboy: I don't need to change partitions after installation | 23:31 |
| Umeaboy | Okey. | 23:31 |
| thiago | if I had to, I'd use fdisk | 23:32 |
| * lcuk goes again \o | 23:32 | |
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| thp | lcukn900: yep | 23:34 |
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| jumoit | do anyone have any ideas on porting meego into msm7k-powered smartphone like android series? | 23:35 |
| Umeaboy | thiago: Which number for the startsector? Any number is fine? | 23:36 |
| thp | mwichmann: why wouldn't it be useful? you can access multiple touch points in qt and react accordingly (e.g. a game with two virtual "joysticks") | 23:36 |
| thiago | Umeaboy: the lowest possible, usually | 23:36 |
| Umeaboy | Okey. | 23:36 |
| Umeaboy | Thanks. | 23:36 |
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| Umeaboy | thiago: Type of filesystem in this case should be ext4, right? | 23:37 |
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| Umeaboy | Or am I wrong? | 23:37 |
| mwichmann | thp: useful in a limited context, sure.... personally it's hard for me when certain things work only in a limited context tho | 23:37 |
| thp | mwichmann: what do you mean with "limited context"? | 23:38 |
| mwichmann | it works in this game that was coded for it, but not in other things | 23:38 |
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| jonnor | multipointer multitough is orthonogal to multitouch gestures | 23:39 |
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| thp | mwichmann: of course.. that's the point of writing a game that makes use of that hardware | 23:39 |
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| lbt | gparted | 23:42 |
| lbt | sabotage: try now | 23:43 |
| lbt | blame opensuse | 23:43 |
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| sabotage | lbt: werks! | 23:44 |
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| lbt | :) | 23:46 |
| sabotage | so... whats happening with SRs these days... since I got you on the line :P | 23:46 |
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| lbt | mumble | 23:47 |
| sabotage | ;) | 23:48 |
| lbt | I need to get some work work done.... then hopefully will have some community time over the break | 23:48 |
| Umeaboy | Should I choose ext4 as filesystem for this device or does it not matter? | 23:49 |
| sabotage | is there a plan to resolve the bottleneck so it's not just your (or any one/two) persons issue? | 23:49 |
| sabotage | IOW lbt, do we need to propose a community "position" or group that folks can sign up for to help out | 23:50 |
| Umeaboy | I have to manually mount it since diskdrake (the diskhandler/mounter) told me that the filesystem is broken on this device. | 23:50 |
| sabotage | of course, we'd need to define in detail the criteria being followed for acceptance/rejection of packages, possibly per "project" but... | 23:51 |
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| lbt | I have to write up 'Surrounds' too | 23:55 |
| thiago | Umeaboy: btrfs | 23:55 |
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| Umeaboy | Gotta logout for the changes to have an affect. | 23:56 |
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