IRC log of #meego for Wednesday, 2010-10-20

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* niala is surprised that meego does not read ext4		00:26
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niala	ntfs-3g	00:32
niala	woops sorry	00:32
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CosmoHill	i think there are bugs open for both of them	00:41
CosmoHill	(one day I'll be sure of something)	00:41
niala	bug on ext4 ? I think is more an option they have forgot in kernel	00:43
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niala	CosmoHill: you can add in your faq the issue about ntfs ext4 . I haven't try reiserfs etc...	00:44
CosmoHill	I'd imagine that isn't there either	00:45
CosmoHill	added	00:47
niala	that's regratable for external disk	00:48
niala	regretable? (it's a correct word in english?)	00:48
niala	that's sad ..	00:49
CosmoHill	I'm not sure	00:49
auke	regrettable	00:49
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auke	file a bugzilla	00:49
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niala	ok	00:50
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niala	but is not really a bug, only an option and for ntfs-3g maybe somes issues about licenses	00:50
niala	auke:	00:50
auke	not for ext4	00:51
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niala	may be it's me I'm on preview from sunday	00:51
qgil	Got this question: Do you know where I can find a matrix of exact APIs included in Qt Mobility on MeeGo ?	00:51
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niala	qgil: you mean that http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qtmobility-1.1.0-beta2/ ?	01:06
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qgil	niala: thanks - if that is what is included in MeeGo then yes	01:06
niala	is not meegotouch ... I m confused with all meego-version qt and different libs for qt	01:08
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qgil	niala: meegotouch has nothing to do here? in the page you linked there is a matrix but doesn't include MeeGo (it does include Harmattan, interesting)	01:11
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niala	qgil: qt-mobility is not everywhere the same? like qt is everywhere the same or any libs	01:16
qgil	niala: see the page you linked :) Qt Mobility is the same, but those APIs might or might not be integrated in the underlying platform - this is why the matrix with different colors is interesting	01:18
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qgil	I'm getting more questions about "how MeeGo will avoid the fragmentation problems Android is having?"	01:48
auke	heh	01:50
auke	what are they actually worried about?	01:50
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qgil	auke: well, with a new version every 6 months and several UX categories, how are ODMs, app developers and users deal with all this?	01:51
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qgil	auke: apps in Ovi not found in AppUp or viceversa can also be seen as fragmentation	01:52
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csdb	qgil: I think that the problem is a real one, and its not really related to the 6month/multiple-UX part. Its more to do with the fact that ODMs will be doing the last mile of development (to take an analogy from networking...).	01:53
csdb	Ubuntu has 6month/multiple UIs and no fragmentation.	01:53
qgil	auke: I guess the central piece is the Qt / Qt Mobility API and its management across releases	01:53
csdb	Android has a single UI (or two) and has fragmentation	01:54
qgil	csdb: "last mile"?	01:54
csdb	well, if you take Ubuntu (RedHat/etc), everyone already gets the complete set, they only potentially add apps on top	01:54
qgil	csdb: but Android's fragmentation comes from what? big jumps between releases avilable in the market?	01:55
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csdb	But with Android/Meego, the ODMs are in charge of the finalized product - they will have added/modified a lot more than just some apps on top	01:55
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jarkkom	enforce that all essential qtmobility-* packages are available on all meego incarnations and that will go a long way	01:55
csdb	new kernel, new drivers, new libs	01:55
qgil	csdb: if they are MeeGo compliance the MeeGo API will be there	01:55
csdb	yes, but that's not to say that the apps they run will be built on that api solely. Isn't that the value add for them ?	01:56
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csdb	Its hard for companies to differentiate yet remain the same...	01:57
qgil	csdb: but why you need to come up with own apis to differentiate?	01:57
csdb	I don't think you need to, but we both know that people will	01:57
wmarone	compatibility lets you escape ;)	01:57
qgil	csdb: besides, it's the interest of MeeGo vendors to have a big catalog of apps	01:57
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qgil	jarkkom: so the point is indeed on the Qt API	01:58
loufoque	when does meego 1.1 get out?	01:58
csdb	fragmentation is different than compatibility. Afaik most/all Android phones can run most/all Android apps, can't they?	01:58
wmarone	were any new APIs introduced with 2.(0\|1\|2)?	01:59
qgil	csdb: I'm finding out difficult to define what is exactly this "Android fragmentation", tbh	01:59
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jarkkom	mostly os release features and screen resolution I guess	02:00
csdb	I don't know that all vendors will agree with you on the big catalog. Its in their interest to make money. External apps can be seen as helping and/or a hindrance.	02:00
csdb	If they just get support calls but make almost no money -> hindrance.	02:00
jarkkom	not a big deal if you're a geek like my but for average user it's probably pretty confusing	02:00
qgil	csdb: well, not in the times of iOS and Android	02:00
csdb	If they make money but no support calls -> good :-)	02:00
Xavierdarkness	Multiple devices running multiple different OS versions	02:00
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csdb	I can only guess at Android fragmentation definitions, but one thing you can notice with Android phones is that there is (almost) never an upgrade on HW that is in the field. So app vendors end up having to deal with 6, 7 simultaneous Android versions	02:02
qgil	Xavierdarkness: ok, then easy upgradability for ODMs + "loosing" MeeGo compliance might do it... Still, there will be different version out there - but what real problems does this bring to users'	02:02
jarkkom	I'd say biggest issue probably will be locationing and maps, that's something that's very vendor speficic but also critical to current crop of apps	02:03
Xavierdarkness	qgil: my connection's a tad slow, that was in reference to android fragmentation	02:03
csdb	So I think that from app vendors that's a pain. And from users too.	02:03
csdb	"ohh - neat app. But I bought my phone last year. It can no longer run current apps"	02:04
qgil	csdb: It's a pain when it's a pain to have you apps ready for every 6 month release, so binary compatibility is important (but feasible?) and OBS automation should be of big help to app developers?	02:04
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csdb	qgil, yes automation helps, but only so much. There's the testing part which is usually the costly one to support multiple versions.	02:05
jarkkom	separate builds aren't really an issue, it more about major ui paradigm changes changing	02:05
jarkkom	though this is mostly symbian, not meego issue	02:06
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qgil	jarkkom: why not MeeGo user when that developer is dealing with the Hadnset version, the Netbook version, the Tablet version...?	02:06
csdb	qgil, look at: http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html	02:07
csdb	So I think that there 2 aspects to fragmentation: multiple versions (and lack of upgrades to existing phones), and multiple vendors within a version.	02:07
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csdb	you have to try to contain both.	02:07
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csdb	Apple doesn't have the 2nd problem, and minimizes the 1st IMO by providing platform upgrades to HW in the field.	02:08
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qgil	csdb: this might be a commercial incentive for MeeGo vendors offering OS updates to their customers	02:09
jarkkom	qgil, well I guess most of the time use cases for handsets and netbooks will be bit different and apart from core stuff like browser etc there might not be that much overlap	02:09
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jarkkom	this is just guess but I think future of handset-specific apps would be mostly dealing with location based services	02:10
csdb	qgil, to me that's always been the game-changing thing that Apple did in phones, a lot more than any benefit of their OS. They detached the OS from the HW, to bring their phones to a model kinda like PCs, servers etc...	02:10
qgil	csdb: but again a vendor will go or not ahead with an OS update depending on the cost, and a key part of the cost is defined by the Qt / Qt Mobility APIs	02:11
csdb	all the other phones you get some cool apps that come with them, a few more in the first few months of their existence, and then it goes dry	02:11
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csdb	qgil, in an environment like Meego (and Android) the dynamics are different, the HW vendor is interested in pumping out more HW, not providing upgrades to HW that was already sold. So who takes care of that? The network provider?	02:12
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csdb	once e.g. Nokia sells a phone, they only see cost in providing upgrades, they have no further revenue stream from it	02:13
qgil	csdb: actually HW vendors know about customer fidelity: they want their customers to buy new hardware, but not from the competitors - so it's not that simple.	02:14
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jarkkom	well that's something nokia wanted to avoid though, though I don't know about what's going on these days	02:14
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jarkkom	being more than just hardware vendor	02:15
csdb	qgil, if their existing phone continues to function, they are not going to buy from anyone :-) I agree that's not a good long term view but it is one that IMO vendors have.	02:15
csdb	When was the last time you saw a phone getting an OS upgrade other than iphones and Nexus One ?	02:16
niala	the interest of meego is to allow the TV control with his phone or his computer with his phone and that in every way (for me)	02:16
csdb	Only the SW people provide OS upgrades...	02:16
slaughter	csdb: lies, lol	02:16
qgil	csdb: if they have the phone on contract they might keep it until the end, or until a rebate is offered - but even if that user is still having that phone, if he is upset and willing to have another one from the competitors in practice it's a lost customer already	02:17
slaughter	if people can get a new phone theyll do it	02:17
jarkkom	csdb, there's no way nokia can do that though, not with their current portfolio of 30+ phones/year :)	02:17
slaughter	csdb: also, all of android gets free updates, btw	02:17
qgil	csdb: when was the last time you saw predictable 6 month releases developed openly for ODMs to grab? MeeGo is changuing some things here	02:18
csdb	qgil, yes, if a competitor starts behaving differently then things might change. Competition is only useful if they options look different :-) If all but apple refuse to provide upgradeability (as is mostly the case today) then you're only options are live with it or move to iphone	02:19
csdb	qgil, whoa - I'm not saying there's nothing to Meego. If I thought that I wouldn't bother being in this channel :-)	02:20
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qgil	csdb: :) thank you for the discussion	02:21
csdb	jarkkom, agreed. But I sure don't like the fact that the phones I buy start decaying the moment I take them out of the box...	02:22
csdb	qgil, np. opinions are cheap :-)	02:22
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jarkkom	csdb, they can't solve that so easily though, everyone knows that symbian is just crap but maemo/meego can't run on low/middle end hardware	02:26
qgil	csdb: one element more: having a public roadmap and knowing the baseline months in advance and being able to start testing well ahead of a final release does help ODM organize their plans on OS updates, and even influence them - that can be an advantage for MeeGo over Android	02:26
csdb	jarkkom, if it was easy it would have been solved already :-) But I don't think that at the low there is this expectation of SW longevity, only on the higher end.	02:29
csdb	If I'm going to shell out $400 for a phone, I want it to be useful for more than a few months	02:29
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csdb	qgil, I agree that the roadmap is useful - it will hopefully avoid having vendors releasing HW with already-obsolete Meego versions (as happens on Android). As long as you can get the vendors to be interested.	02:31
niala	csdb: +1	02:31
csdb	Bottom line is that until both HW vendors and Network providers see this as a problem that needs fixing, it won't be fixed. Because it is costly to fix it (and become more than just a HW pusher/cellphone plan pusher)	02:32
csdb	But if they want a piece of that apple pie...	02:32
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qgil	thanks everybody for the discussion - need to digest now :)	02:33
qgil	bye!	02:33
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ddompe	hi, is the OBS at https://build.meego.com/ open? i.e. can I get an account there?	02:44
auke	nope	02:44
ddompe	what's the status of the community builder?	02:46
auke	ask lbt_away	02:47
auke	but, it's being worked on and not ready	02:48
ddompe	auke: thanks!	02:48
ddompe	lbt_away: any news?	02:48
auke	ddompe: I haven't seen lbt in a few days now...	02:48
smithna	hi, does anyone know where the "meegite" theme is from?	02:49
ddompe	auke, thanks	02:50
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ali_z	hi all, which file should be changed if I want to change the resolution on the meego-handset system, I ever find the /etc/meegotouch/devices.conf could do it, but now it has been removed.	06:58
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DangerMaus	hey ja	08:06
DangerMaus	err	08:06
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nicolai_	hi, any mic specialists here this morning?	09:15
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Mirv	nicolai_: what do you need to know?	09:28
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Mirv	not sure about my specialist status, though. "I've used it"	09:29
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nicolai_	Mirv: I am struggling forth and back with trying to create images with mic, yet it seems that my installation of the tool is some sort of faulty or so	09:31
nicolai_	I get "no such file or directory" at different places	09:31
nicolai_	fabo helped me along yesterday about this over at #meego-sdk yet I am still not there	09:31
nicolai_	In the meantime I have come across the statement in the wiki that mic has a hard requirement for SSSE3 support (which I had overlooked so far), which I currently don't fullfill	09:33
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Mirv	nicolai_: for what it's worth, I seem to be using 0.19, on Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, and at least creating loop images works	09:33
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Mirv	run_mode=1, use_comps=1	09:34
nicolai_	I will try to get myself a core2duo ASAP, yet I was wondering whether I should try to investigate my "no such file or directory"-issues further until I get there or not (as I cannot imagine that this issue is related to that requirement)	09:35
Mirv	did you have some pastebin logs?	09:35
Mirv	mic is a bit bad in its error description.... I've had my share of troubles with it	09:35
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nicolai_	I started off with "no such file or directory /var/chache/meego-bootstrap/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/mic" when I was using mic verson is 0.21.1 on ubuntu 10.04	09:38
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nicolai_	After I had installed 0.22.0 as suggested by fabo, this became "No such file or directory : '/usr/local/bin/mic' "	09:39
nicolai_	I worked around this by symlinking /usr/local/bin/mic to /usr/bin/mic (which seemed to work in some way, though I am not quite sure whether this is really somthing I should do)	09:40
nicolai_	But now I end up with "No such file or directory" without saying anything about which path is missing	09:41
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nicolai_	when I look up the Traceback a bit, I see that the exception is thrown in the method "run_in_bootstrap", so I assume that the bootstrap has not been created correctly	09:42
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nicolai_	DO you happen to know whether this has to be done manually before starting mic-image-creator? I had assumed that this would be done more or less automatically as part of the process and one only has to do this by hand if one has special requirements about this	09:44
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Mirv	well, one thing is certain, mic is often broken :)	09:47
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Mirv	did you install the mic from http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/tools/repos/ubuntu/10.04/all/ ?	09:47
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Mirv	I did have those bootstrap problems as well, but I'm not certain how I fixed it... now that it works for me, I'm not touching anything if I don't have to...	09:48
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Mirv	complaint about /usr/local/bin/mic sounds like a leftover from eg. manual installation of mic	09:48
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nicolai_	Mirv: the initial version I had (0.21.1), yes.. 0.22.0 came from debian sid	09:49
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Mirv	sorry, have to prepare for a telco now. but at least you're most certainly not alone with mic problems. I've learned not to touch or upgrade it if not absolutely necessary	09:50
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nicolai_	thanks for having had the chance to discuss this... it is good to know that someone else had similar problems and that there are ways to overcome them	09:51
nicolai_	this makes me more confident that I will find a way around it.	09:51
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nicolai_	Will try to get myself a new machine now anyway and then I can start from a clean platform again.. maybe that helps	09:52
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Mirv	one more thing: do not only test creating eg. livecd images, experiment with also loop option - some problems only occur when building certain kind of images	09:53
nicolai_	Cool, thanks for the hint, I will have a look at this...	09:54
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Priyankaa	Hi, I am trying to run OBS and it says source update is running in the build status.	10:43
Priyankaa	How I cancel the build?	10:43
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Jaffa	Morning, all	10:45
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lcuk2	morning \o	11:01
lbt	lcuk2: pingmorningo/	11:02
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Stskeeps	morn lbt	11:03
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lbt	Priyankaa: osc abortbuild --help	11:03
lbt	morning Stskeeps	11:03
Stskeeps	how's stuff?	11:03
lbt	Priyankaa: also.... osc --help	11:04
lbt	Stskeeps: really good	11:04
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lbt	Stskeeps: internal OBS automation is looking very good... I want a fully automated end-2-end QA'ed build this sprint	11:04
Stskeeps	cool :)	11:05
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lbt	yes...	11:05
Stskeeps	and community obs?	11:05
lbt	and we have it ready for meego.com too	11:05
lbt	yeah... that's more... irritating	11:05
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* lcuk smiles :)		11:05
lbt	hey X-Fade	11:05
X-Fade	hi, didn't see the activity here ;)	11:05
lbt	community OBS is ready	11:05
lbt	but	11:05
X-Fade	Has been for a while ;)	11:06
X-Fade	Although I guess we should put it on 2.1 final?	11:06
lbt	we're waiting on a 1hr task to setup a sql/scp/cron of user data	11:06
lbt	so kick mrshaver when you see him	11:06
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lbt	to be fair we're also (re)deploying a load of network infra	11:08
Stskeeps	well, release coming up :P	11:08
lbt	yup	11:08
lbt	how is it going on your side Stskeeps?	11:09
X-Fade	That reminds me, lbt: should I add the 1.2 pre releases too?	11:09
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Stskeeps	lbt: usual release panic(TM)	11:09
Stskeeps	but we're quite well along	11:09
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lbt	X-Fade: yes... I wanted to get ramez involvedf to match up to nokia internal mirroring process	11:09
X-Fade	lbt: Should we setup a meeting or so?	11:10
lbt	Stskeeps: cool... when the dust settles I'd like to talk to you about automation too	11:10
lbt	X-Fade: when he wakes up we can grab him here	11:10
Stskeeps	lbt: automation in what area?	11:10
X-Fade	lbt: Well, I'm not there, but yeah ;)	11:10
lbt	Stskeeps: maintainer validation, QA etc... the process of promoting packages	11:11
Stskeeps	:nod:	11:11
lbt	X-Fade: so... tasks?	11:12
X-Fade	I have time to work on stuff.	11:13
X-Fade	Whatever stuff may be.	11:13
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lbt	I think we could do with reviewing the import process and naming	11:13
lbt	it works but is blunt	11:14
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X-Fade	Yeah, and how to validate a weekly.	11:14
X-Fade	As I tried the 1015 one and it didn't have repos.	11:14
lbt	yes... we have had issues when the sync results in 0 byte imports	11:14
X-Fade	That obviously should not impored.	11:14
lbt	the 2.1 uprade too	11:15
lbt	although my LDAP group patch was 1 patch too late	11:16
X-Fade	Well, we can slap that on top of it. ;)	11:17
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X-Fade	One patch can be managed :)	11:17
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lbt	we could also do with sorting out how we do vcs'ed config management	11:18
lbt	what are your thoughts on puppet?	11:18
X-Fade	I think won't work in our env.	11:18
lbt	phew :)	11:18
X-Fade	Too many different admin rights/levels.	11:18
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lbt	I proposed : http://www.heiho.net/synctool/ ?	11:19
X-Fade	Yeah, I like that proposal more	11:19
lbt	essentially rsync	11:19
lbt	OK ... I've been wondering if I'm being short-sighted... nice to know I'm not alone :)	11:19
lbt	I have installed it on	11:20
lbt	...	11:20
X-Fade	If there is only one admin level, then it works fine.	11:20
X-Fade	But that is not the case for us.	11:20
X-Fade	Or you would need to have a lot of puppet instances, separating out the admin areas.	11:20
lbt	zathras	11:20
lbt	I thought so... there is a proposal to use a local gitosis instance to manage that ...	11:21
lbt	I'm feeling it's a bit OTT	11:21
lbt	I'd be happy saying that we want a solution to do "system admin"... at the per-system level.	11:21
lbt	To me that's a git tree of a sparse-root which is overlayed onto a 'apt-get install'	11:22
lbt	no messing about with users who only have rights to apache config	11:23
lbt	if you want to... break that out and get your apache system's admin to deal with it	11:23
X-Fade	I think machine/vm level admin should be enough.	11:24
lbt	so... I think setting up synctool on zathras would be another useful task... see if we can identify which config files have changed and getting them into vcs	11:25
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X-Fade	So you give someone access to a VM and give them the ability to mess that up. As long as there are backups ;)	11:25
lbt	yes	11:25
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X-Fade	The hosts themselves would probably need to be managed differently though.	11:26
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lbt	agreed ... hosts are superadmin only (apart from rare exceptions... OBS workers)	11:26
lbt	but honestly, they should be bare-bones minimal config with no activity other than LVM and iptables	11:27
lbt	we're having hosts running Suse and VMs running squeeze	11:27
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lbt	I think you were around for that decision though?	11:28
X-Fade	Yes, I was.	11:28
lbt	I'll tell you... I'm glad you're back :)	11:28
X-Fade	Hehe. Well let's see if we can get this into a higher gear.	11:30
lbt	Adam is going to OSU so we may have outage later	11:31
lbt	I didn't see anything... but I think he's doing network stuff	11:31
X-Fade	Yeah, but I think it is better to have an outage for a few hours than having nothing to show for months ;)	11:31
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X-Fade	Problem with trying newer firmware is that your modem gets updated.	11:38
X-Fade	-EWINDOW ;)	11:39
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lcuk	whats the task switcher technical component called for handset?	11:59
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CosmoHill	MeeGo 1.2 is coming out next Wednesday right?	12:06
Stskeeps	1.1	12:06
CosmoHill	well that would explain my recent confusion	12:07
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* lcuk gets CosmoHill a coffee		12:07
* CosmoHill turns it into tea and drinks it		12:08
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inz	How does tea drink itself?	12:12
inz	Or did the tea drink the coffee	12:12
inz	I'm confused.	12:12
CosmoHill	I have a wand that only works on drinks that I used to turn the coffee into tea, which I then drank	12:13
lcuk	the closest to a magic drinking wand I have is a bendy straw	12:13
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* lcuk is not feeling very technical this morning incase you haven't guessed ;)		12:14
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CosmoHill	I'\m just noticed someone's got the same printer as me and they've printed out good A4 colour pictures	12:15
CosmoHill	this gives me hope that my printer might still be of some good for photos	12:16
lcuk	heh	12:16
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CosmoHill	I fixed it with a screw driver by removing a stupid chip from a caterage	12:16
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CosmoHill	dammit my tea is cold already	12:18
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alterego	I've setup madde and can build mtf based apps and run them under meego handset, but when I try to create a class that inherits an mtf component I get "mmoc: Command not found" anyone know what I've missed?	12:22
CosmoHill	type "which mmoc"	12:23
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alterego	In madde or just plain terminal? :)	12:24
CosmoHill	plain terminal	12:24
alterego	Nothing	12:24
CosmoHill	mmoc is part of madde correct?	12:24
lcuk	alterego, missing: http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework/n900-mmoc-fix/ ??	12:25
alterego	No, I'm guessing mmoc is the meego touch frameworks meego thing.	12:25
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alterego	meego qt moc thing	12:25
alterego	Oh crap, I'm gonna have to build it from scratch? :P	12:26
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jonni	multipoint-touch seems to work nicely in latest meego image with lenovo S10-3t	13:15
frals	build number?	13:16
jonni	1.0.99	13:18
slaine	nice	13:18
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frals	shame downloading from meego.com is horribly slow :(	13:22
jonni	was testing transformaction widget so event Qt Wrt is receiving the javascript multipoint events	13:23
hena	i'm gettin ok speeds	13:23
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frals	never managed to get over ~250KB/sec	13:23
hena	i get about 750 all the time	13:23
CosmoHill	i hate you	13:24
Stskeeps	frals: mirrors.kernel.org/meego/	13:26
frals	Stskeeps: thanks, will try that :)	13:26
CosmoHill	the best I got was 300KB/s on my home connection and 35MB/s on my uni one	13:26
hena	uu, kernel.org has a mirror	13:28
CosmoHill	what file are you downloading?	13:28
TermanaN900	Strangely, i found repo.meego.org to be faster the other day	13:28
CosmoHill	frals: can you give me a link to the file you are downloading?	13:30
frals	http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.99/1.0.99.2.20101019.1/netbook/images/meego-netbook-ia32/meego-netbook-ia32-1.0.99.2.20101019.1.img	13:31
frals	not mirrored on kernel.org yet :<	13:31
lcuk	which netbook are you installing it onto?	13:31
CosmoHill	frals: give me a few mins	13:31
Myrtti	this'll be interesting	13:34
frals	lcuk: uh, it varies depending on what i can scavage ;)	13:34
CosmoHill	someone has finished downloading cos my download speed just went up	13:35
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slaine	frals: that's for the url, was going to go looking for that today :)	13:36
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CosmoHill	slaine: if you wait 5 mins I can give you a mirrror	13:37
slaine	yeah, cool	13:37
slaine	thanks	13:37
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slaine	see if I can get my broadcom rpm in shape for the 1.1 release	13:37
loufoque	is meego 1.1 out?	13:38
CosmoHill	loufoque: next wednesday	13:38
loufoque	CosmoHill: nice, thanks for the info	13:38
CosmoHill	if you'd like the latest image I'll have a mirror ready in a few minutes	13:39
CosmoHill	watching this download is like watching a yoyo	13:40
loufoque	i'm mostly interested in decent support of the N900	13:40
lcuk	frals, good good	13:40
* lcuk installs meego on a trout		13:40
CosmoHill	this better not copy limewire, it gets to 99% downloaded and then goes to 2KB/s	13:41
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CosmoHill	http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/meego/meego-netbook-ia32-1.0.99.2.20101019.1.img	13:42
CosmoHill	http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/meego/meego-netbook-ia32-1.0.99.2.20101019.1.img.md5	13:42
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CosmoHill	slaine: mirror's ready	13:45
slaine	CosmoHill: cool, on it's way down now, thanks	13:45
loufoque	does anyone have some side by side comparisons of maemo in meego?	13:45
loufoque	I mean screenshots	13:46
loufoque	of maemo vs meego	13:46
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slaine	that's kind of a meaningless comparison	13:47
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pupnik_	google image search screenshot+maemo	13:48
pupnik_	google image search screenshot+meego	13:48
CosmoHill	then use the new windows 7 feature to view them side by side	13:49
TermanaN900	lcuk, be careful what you say	13:49
TermanaN900	lcuk, trout is the codename for an actual handset, people might get the wrong idea :p	13:49
CosmoHill	so if someone hits me with a trout they may have just thrown a phone at me?	13:50
lcuk	TermanaN900, hmmm	13:50
lcuk	theres something fishy with that proposal	13:50
TermanaN900	hehe :p	13:50
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Myrtti	world isn't fair. Why does it take over an hour to encode a 27 minute video?	13:56
Surfa	you're short on cpu power? :)	13:56
Myrtti	partypooper	13:56
Myrtti	:-(	13:56
pupnik_	that's one way to say it Surfa ;)	13:57
Myrtti	I'll stick with my original theory of world not being fair	13:57
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Tm_T	Myrtti: I blame that too	13:58
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CosmoHill	Myrtti: because the laws of thermo dynamics say "no"	13:59
hena	hah, http://meego.org	13:59
Myrtti	I know, my cpu is at 85C	13:59
Myrtti	sorry, 87C	14:00
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CosmoHill	hena: their hacking skills are far greater than their html skills	14:00
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hena	didn't even bother to look at the code	14:01
CosmoHill	that reminds me, I need to update my AV	14:02
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loufoque	slaine: why is it meaningless?	14:05
loufoque	slaine: I wonder how much the UI changes	14:05
slaine	It's completely different	14:05
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kt_	hi, i am having some trouble installing qt creator with madde on my Ubuntu 10.04 LTS system	14:06
kt_	./install-meego-dev-env-0.7.25-linux-i686.sh Can not install on 'x86_64' Requires i686 system	14:07
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Bostik	pretty obvious, you're trying to install x86-32 software on x86-64 system	14:07
CosmoHill	kt_: you're ubuntu system is 64bit, you have the 32bit script	14:08
Bostik	at least the installer is kind enough to actually tell you up front that it won't work	14:08
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kt_	CosmoHill, yes but is there a 64 bit version script?	14:09
CosmoHill	I'd look in the same place you got the 32bit one	14:09
kt_	CosmoHill, on http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_with_QEMU only the 32bit one is shown	14:10
CosmoHill	you may have to install MADDE yourself	14:12
slaine	loufoque: sorry, was on a call and couldn't elaborate.	14:12
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slaine	The MeeGo Handset UX is a completely new design in comparison with the MID style UX from the n900 maemo release is what I meant. So a direct comparison doesn't really mean much. You can get a fee for the handset ux by looking here, http://meego.com/devices/handset/handset-screenshots	14:14
Linex	No joke! There is a lot of peopl ein here.	14:14
slaine	Well, MID style was probably more applicable to the earlier nXX0 hardware	14:15
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Linex	anyone got screen shots of meego on a phone ?	14:16
Guest81330	Hello All , I Was successfull in installing qt by naming qt-devel in ks file and then using mic-image creator for repo http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/armv7l/packages/armv7l/ . Then I pull all rpms to my local repository and change repo url to that local repo in ks file , But I am not able to install qt-devel now ... anyone have the pointers ??	14:17
kt_	CosmoHill, i am trying to install MADDE myself now. I only need to create a simple application so maybe i could do the development on the meego pc	14:17
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kt_	CosmoHill, is it possible to install QT Creator on meego?	14:18
CosmoHill	you probably could	14:18
frals	its presinstalled in the meego sdk chroot afaik	14:18
CosmoHill	it's not the Qt creator that is giving you problems tho, it's MADDE	14:19
kt_	ok, so i would still need that on the meego pc	14:19
CosmoHill	I wouldn't know	14:20
kt_	the madde installation seemed to run smooth when using http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/MADDE.php?f=install-madde-0.6.72-linux-x86_64.sh	14:21
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sunder	hi all .. can anyone direct mee to the meego codedrop images' path?? their paths seem to be changed and what the repos show now are chromium images. are these two different??	14:22
Stskeeps	sunder: repo.meego.com :)	14:22
kt_	do you have experience with configuring Qt Creator to work with real devices? Is the ip address of the real device alle that is needed?	14:22
sunder	hi stskeeps. I followed the http://wiki.meego.com/Developing_in_a_Meego_Environment#Setting_up_your_development_environment. it talks of some http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/n900/images/meego-codedrop-ia32-developer-201003311106.img.bz2, but these are nowhere to be found .. :(	14:23
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CosmoHill	that image looks like it's dated for March	14:24
sunder	has anyone tried the chromium images??	14:26
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sunder	has anyone tried these images http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.0/netbook/images/meego-netbook-chromium-ia32/meego-netbook-chromium-ia32-1.0-20100524.1.img .. ??	14:28
CosmoHill	http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/meego/meego-netbook-ia32-1.0.99.2.20101019.1.img << Newest	14:30
CosmoHill	the only difference between the chrome and chromium images is the EULA and brower	14:31
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Linex	A pure Qt program will run on meego ?	14:52
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Stskeeps	should	14:52
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alterego	Has anyone heard anything back about the meego conference?	15:35
alterego	It's less than a month away :/	15:35
Stskeeps	hmm?	15:35
Stskeeps	should have been a lot of people getting accept/reject on their talks and sponsorship	15:36
alterego	Oh, I've heard nothing about my sponsorship.	15:36
Stskeeps	when did you sign up?	15:36
alterego	About 2 days after they announced that website.	15:36
Stskeeps	hrm	15:36
Stskeeps	dunno - check with Jaffa	15:37
alterego	Then I edited my submission about a week afterwards ^.^	15:37
alterego	If it qwent into my spam I'm going to be so pissed.	15:37
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slaine	alterego: what email address is your submission under	15:40
slaine	we (the committee) wrapped up last week	15:41
alterego	That, is a good question.	15:41
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slaine	I can check the spreadsheet and see if you're there	15:41
alterego	Thanks	15:42
* Jaffa leaves it to slaine		15:42
alterego	I've never been to a meetup yet :(	15:42
slaine	hey jaffa	15:42
alterego	And I'm jobless :D	15:42
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dell	I have a general qn about meego	15:49
Myrtti	go ahead and ask...	15:50
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dell	which layer is respinsible to use gstreamer and all other upstream compnents in meego	15:50
sivu	damn. gst-plugins-base from gitorious has problems	15:51
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sivu	gstxmptag.c:830: error: 'GST_TAG_APPLICATION_NAME' undeclared (first use in this function)	15:54
sivu	sigh	15:54
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dell	howdo i get an understanding of how the variou components like gstreamer , ofono, connman bluez etc work together as a system in meego?	15:59
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alterego	dell: They're not all completeling integrated	16:02
alterego	~completely ..	16:02
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dell	alterego i assume there should be a layer above the components am i right ?	16:04
alterego	I'd look at the documentation for ofono on meego, and connman. I think Bluez is seperate	16:04
alterego	Well, as far as gstreamer is concerned, I think the dialer app that integrates with ofono actually uses pulseaudio	16:04
alterego	So it doesn't talking to gstreamer directly at all I don't think.	16:04
Purti	dell: I think http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture is the best place to start from..	16:04
dell	yes i have gone through them, they can be used by applications	16:04
Purti	they all run as service inside linux exposing various APIs so that there services could be used	16:05
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sx0n	http://meego.org/	16:07
sx0n	haxxors	16:07
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sid3windr	silly chinese ;>	16:08
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dell	how is power management done in meego?	16:09
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sx0n	with button? :) dunno	16:09
alterego	depends on the hardware	16:09
alterego	dell: on the N900 we're a slave to bme	16:10
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Termana	Power management? Who needs that. I have 100 chinese kids that use a mechanical winder to keep my battery running all day	16:10
alterego	I'd imagine on netbook it's the same as an ordinary PC with GNU/Linux installed	16:10
sx0n	Termana, Power slaves?	16:10
alterego	Heh	16:10
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dell	so where in software will this differentialtion bw netbook and handset be done	16:10
Termana	alterego, well... REALLY that's not power management	16:11
Termana	That's battery charging	16:11
alterego	Okay, I've been running around the Qt docs like crazy for the past hour, how can I stick a QDeclarativeView inside an MApplicationPage?	16:11
dell	so which code should i refer if i want to understand how overall system power management is handled in meego?	16:12
Termana	The real answer is that you should be using CPUIdle and Dynamic PM on Handsets, and use the normal suspend/hibernate/CPUIdle and Dynamic PM on netbooks	16:12
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dell	so different kernels?	16:13
Termana	dell, just look into normal linux power management.	16:13
Termana	dell, no. Handset manufactures can do suspending and resuming for handsets as well	16:13
sx0n	dell, there was some discussion on power management relating to over clocking.	16:13
dell	in the driver level or application level ? i mean for meego case	16:14
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Termana	dell, rephrase?	16:14
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CosmoHill	Termana: Alienware	16:15
dell	intel uses ACPI and apm stuff	16:15
dell	so will the same be used in meego?	16:15
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Termana	dell, yes, like I said, look into normal linux power management	16:15
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sx0n	http://wiki.maemo.org/Kernel_Power	16:15
Termana	CosmoHill, what? :p	16:15
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CosmoHill	dell rephrased = alienware	16:16
Termana	heh :p	16:16
Termana	sx0n, what does that have ANYTHING to do with what we are talking about? :p	16:16
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sx0n	Termana, power consumption?	16:17
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sx0n	i thought that consumption would something to do with management, but then maybe not.	16:18
Termana	sx0n, well, technically yes. But that's not really what he was looking for :p	16:18
sx0n	ah ok. acpi..	16:19
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dell	i refereed the meego architecture and also the meego glitorious i was not able to find a single component for handset UI framework inside the MeeGo Handset UX. is there such a framework ?	16:22
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alterego	dell: meego touch framework	16:24
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alterego	is what you're looking for	16:24
alterego	dell: http://apidocs.meego.com/mtf/	16:25
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alterego	You're lucking I've been staring at that api ref for the past day :)	16:25
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dell	thanks alterego and Termana	16:30
alterego	np	16:30
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kt_	I use Ubuntu 10.04 LTS X86_64 and want to do development for Meego. I have installed Qt Creator and want to integrate MADDE (MeeGo Application Development & Debug Environment) into it. I have installed http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/MADDE.php?f=install-madde-0.6.72-linux-x86_64.sh but i now only have support for MAEMO. I am confused. If i choose to develop an app for maemo will it then also work in meego?	16:39
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kt_	As mentioned earlier i can not just follow this guide: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_with_QEMU as i do not have a 32 bit Ubuntu version	16:40
kt_	furthermore i do not need an emulator. I have an actual netbook running meego that i want to debug the application on	16:41
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townxelliot	kt_: this is the simplest and fastest way to develop for netbook on Linux at the moment: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.1/MeeGo_SDK_with_Xephyr; providing you're not using Fedora Core 13 (Xephyr doesn't work properly on it, but the reason hasn't been tracked down yet - bug here: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8666)	16:48
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townxelliot	kt_: I install Qt Creator into the chroot and run it from there; and use chroot to compile before putting the application on a real netbook	16:49
niala	Xephyr need an intel video card	16:49
townxelliot	niala: that's true	16:49
kt_	i have a nvidia graphics card - will that do?	16:50
townxelliot	and kt_, I didn't notice the 64bit thing, which will make life difficult I expect	16:50
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kt_	yes, if just i did not run 64 bit i assume it would not be a problem	16:50
townxelliot	kt_ Xephyr won't work on non-Intel graphics either	16:51
townxelliot	kt_ more accurately, netbook UX won't run inside Xephyr on non-Intel graphics	16:51
kt_	i just installed the standard ubuntu desktop edition a long time ago and apparently it is 64 bit	16:51
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niala	kt_: look at http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_Development_Options	16:54
kt_	niala, i have done that	16:55
kt_	niala, is there something you think i have overlooked?	16:55
niala	I use meego on netbook and qemu on fedora64x and ati	16:56
kt_	niala, how did you install install-meego-dev-env-0.7.25-linux-i686.sh	16:57
kt_	?	16:57
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kt_	assuming that you just followed the guide	16:57
niala	it's a script? I don't remember .	16:58
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niala	sh install-meego-dev-env-0.7.25-linux-i686.sh	16:58
kt_	niala, it is a 225Mb binary file. I get the error: Can not install on 'x86_64' Requires i686 system	16:59
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kt_	niala, is there someway i can force installation anyway? And the find missing libraries perhaps?	17:00
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niala	http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_with_QEMU they explain Installing qemugl on 64 bit ubuntu 10.04	17:02
niala	oh sorry I confused with MADDE	17:04
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kt_	yes, the funny thing is that they explain how to install qemugl on 64 bit but not Qt Creator with MADDE	17:05
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CosmoHill	salut niala	17:14
niala	bug lol I've downoad a 700Mb file on a live disk. yes that a little stupi :)	17:15
niala	hello CosmoHill	17:15
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Linex	Is there like a virtualized or emulator of meego for develpment ?	17:18
niala	CosmoHill: cold and wet day but nice http://meteopetitefrance.fr/	17:18
niala	Linex: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_Development_Options	17:19
Linex	niala: thanks	17:19
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Linex	just curious, qt apps ( modified or not) runs on android ?	17:20
niala	android is java no? lol I don't know nothing about android	17:21
niala	I mean if library are here why not?	17:22
Linex	would be nice to have qt on android, then our apps will run on meego and android.	17:22
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niala	mmm	17:23
kt_	Linex, yes, i would really like that too	17:23
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kt_	the worst thing about android is (as far as i know) that only android specific java classes are supported (correct me if i am wrong)	17:24
kt_	there is no java virtual machine underneath	17:25
niala	and licence	17:25
kt_	hmm... the virtual machine is named "Dalvik"	17:26
niala	license ..... english is really not my language :)	17:26
Linex	niala: Qemu is the best method to go I guess	17:26
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niala	yep	17:28
niala	it's depend of your hardware	17:28
RST38h	Why would you need Java to begin with?	17:28
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Linex	niala: I got VT	17:29
Linex	niala: I have no idea what I want to develop yet. Just playing around.	17:29
kt_	RST38h, it would be nice if you could use the same applications on different platforms. If Android uses non-standard classes that is not so. But I do not know much about it	17:30
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Linex	the netbook image is a lot more bigger than the phone image	17:31
Stskeeps	of course	17:31
Stskeeps	:P	17:31
lcuk	try holding your netbook to your ear :p	17:31
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Linex	hehe	17:32
niala	Linex: each meego is different than the other	17:32
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Linex	so the phone version are missing many classes I guess	17:32
Stskeeps	phone version on meego? no, most stuff is in core	17:33
niala	lcuk: I do this sometines in a spip way :)	17:33
RST38h	kt: Compile some kind of MIDP emulator and use MIDP apps	17:33
Stskeeps	full qt	17:33
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Linex	Stskeeps: both have the same qt core libraries ?	17:33
Stskeeps	yeah	17:33
RST38h	Having said that, MIDP is rather primitive and inherently slow	17:33
Linex	Stskeeps: ok, so its the environment	17:33
Stskeeps	yeah	17:33
Linex	Stskeeps: the whole OS thingy	17:34
Linex	Stskeeps: ok thanks	17:34
lcuk	niala, then you are odd :P	17:34
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kt_	RST38h, i did not know the MIDP	17:35
Linex	ok can someone remind me why I would want to develop on meego platform ?	17:35
RST38h	kt: MIDP is "smartphone java" as you know it	17:35
RST38h	Also known as JavaME and PhoneME	17:36
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kt_	RST38h, ok	17:36
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kt_	RST38h, i was not really thinking in that way because i run these OS (meego and android) on x86 hardware	17:36
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niala	lcuk: euh well yes true! I wrote spip but I think sip :)	17:37
kt_	RST38h, i just need to make a few demo-apps that will run on small netbooks running meego and android	17:38
kt_	so far i have run into lots of trouble	17:38
kt_	not being a linux expert certainly does not make things better	17:38
lcuk	kt_, so, same source for each OS?	17:40
niala	the interest of vendor is not to be compatible, but to sell is phone and control her customer	17:40
lcuk	or just different implementations	17:40
kt_	lcuk, no, that is not possible (unfortunately). I also am going to make something for Google Chrome OS	17:41
kt_	if i ever get there	17:42
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lcuk	kt_, oh, i thought android was based on linux and allowed you to dev same stuff :) isn't there an sdl implementaiton for instance?	17:42
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kt_	lcuk, i don't know if there is an sdl implementation, thank for the tip	17:45
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kt_	sdl does not seem to support android yet	17:46
kt_	but i will look more into it	17:46
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Myrtti	oooohhh	19:00
Myrtti	bright light	19:00
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Tm_T	Myrtti: don't walk into it	19:09
Alison_Chaiken	Has anyone successfully run the IVI ISO under qemu or another emulator? I've run various netbook images but get the impression that unless you have a copy of the proprietary bootloader and qflasher, you're out of luck on the handset and IVI images. If I were to put MeeGo on my Android phone, would the install replace the Android bootloader? (Just about has to be so, I guess.) Is anybody running MeeGo on another device, sa	19:10
Alison_Chaiken	y a Chumby or a Linksys or somesuch?	19:10
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Linex	I'm on gentoo. Can I just use the qemu provided by gentoo ?	19:13
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wmarone	Alison_Chaiken: it's not -quite- that easy to put MeeGo on Android devices just yet. At this point, I don't think it's replacing the android bootloader, but you'd have to get details from the people who are trying.	19:14
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Alison_Chaiken	wmarone, thanks for the response. Is there any hardware available now that an ordinary Sal can run the IVI image on?	19:16
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csdb	Linex, what version qemu? I've had problems with older ones (0.11). As long as the version is fairly recent it should be ok	19:16
Linex	csdb: 0.12.5-r1	19:16
Linex	csdb: is that ok ?	19:17
wmarone	Alison_Chaiken: if it's x86 then any current Intel-based system should run it	19:17
* wmarone looks		19:17
wmarone	yeah, ia32	19:17
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csdb	Linex, I'm using a 0.13git version. You can give it a try.	19:18
csdb	might be ok.	19:18
Alison_Chaiken	csdb, I've been running the netbook image under QEMU PC emulator version 0.12.5 (qemu-kvm-0.12.5) on Fedora 13. Details are here: http://www.exerciseforthereader.org/PCBSD/PCBSD8_under_qemu-kvm.html	19:18
csdb	if you see qemu coredumping, then its time to upgrade :-)	19:18
Linex	csdb: the meego-qemu-start script looks for /usr/bin/qemugl . What should I replace it with ?	19:19
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Linex	csdb: I got a bunch of qemu-xxx	19:19
Alison_Chaiken	So wmarone, the IVI can be run as long as one has a copy of qflasher and the bootloader? That's the sticking point AFAIK. Once you have those components, you can create an image with MIC and you're ready to go.	19:19
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csdb	Linex, ahhh sorry. I just logged in and caught the end of your questions. I thought you were asking about qemu for building. If you're running Meego under it then I can't help you, haven't done that yet	19:20
Alison_Chaiken	csdb, you may be missing some package dependencies for GL or libvirt.	19:20
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Linex	oh ok	19:20
Linex	csdb: no worries	19:20
wmarone	Alison_Chaiken: believe so, I suspect it's probably virtually identical to the netbook image with some interface changes	19:20
* wmarone hasn't paid much attention to IVI		19:21
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acab_	hello. does anybody run last build of meego on n900?	19:21
Linex	the virtual image needs kvm ?	19:21
Stskeeps	acab_: 1.0.99 or 1.1.80 ?	19:22
acab_	Stskeeps, 1.1.80	19:22
Stskeeps	if you don't have to use 1.1.80 for anything like work, i'd recommend 1.0.99 for now	19:22
acab_	Stskeeps, but . in 1.0.99 can i use for example. cellular?	19:23
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acab_	or somebody	19:23
Stskeeps	yes	19:23
Stskeeps	1.0.99 is what becomes meego 1.1	19:23
acab_	what about video acceleration?	19:23
CosmoHill	http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/meego/meego-netbook-ia32-1.0.99.2.20101019.1.img	19:23
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Stskeeps	acab_: no DSP usage, but 3d is there, though old drivers	19:24
acab_	Stskeeps, its very slow when rotate screen	19:24
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Stskeeps	acab_: yeah, we are putting in fast 3d drivers in 1.2	19:26
Stskeeps	in fact, i'm debugging them right now..	19:26
acab_	but why last builds are broken?	19:27
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Stskeeps	1.1.80?	19:27
acab_	yep	19:27
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Stskeeps	because 1.1.80 is 1.2 alpha :)	19:27
acab_	Stskeeps, i understand, but when load, my phone didnt see anything on sd card	19:28
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Stskeeps	you might have hit an image with the broken kernel on it	19:28
acab_	nooo	19:28
acab_	i download last	19:29
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acab_	http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=11211&postcount=214	19:29
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acab_	i get exacly that situation	19:29
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Stskeeps	yes, and 1.1.80 had a kernel problem	19:29
Stskeeps	it should be fixed but probably first in next week's weekly	19:29
acab_	=(	19:30
acab_	is it real to load with another kernel?	19:30
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Stskeeps	just grab 1.0.99	19:31
slaine	Is there a planned upgrade path from 1.0 to 1.1 ?	19:31
Stskeeps	that's likely what you would want to track	19:31
Stskeeps	slaine: upgrades, what's that? :P	19:31
slaine	That answers that	19:31
Stskeeps	no idea about netbook	19:31
acab_	Stskeeps, 1.0.99 its so slooooow	19:31
Stskeeps	acab_: yes, and that's because we haven't integrated new SGX drivers yet	19:32
Stskeeps	acab_: that's what i'm working on getting prepared for 1.2 right now, we have a bug where it crashes	19:32
acab_	how you test 1.1.80 if you cant load it =)?	19:32
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CosmoHill	slaine: no there isn't at this time	19:32
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slaine	Grand	19:32
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slaine	I'll backup and install 1.0.99.1 so	19:33
Stskeeps	acab_: we don't, if you went to look at the QA reports, they say unable to test :)	19:33
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Stskeeps	acab_: it's fixed in the daily image from today so next weeks..	19:33
acab_	ahahahah ^)))	19:33
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CosmoHill	slaine: http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/meego/faq.txt second question on there	19:33
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acab_	Stskeeps, when you wanna show good build?	19:39
Stskeeps	want to see a video?	19:39
Stskeeps	:P	19:39
Stskeeps	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWtMLs3j09U&feature=player_embedded	19:39
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acab_	i just wanna see what work =)	19:40
th0br0	sweet	19:40
acab_	build 1.1.80.0.20101001.1	19:40
acab_	its good?	19:40
acab_	not broken?	19:40
Stskeeps	acab_: probably wasn't	19:40
Stskeeps	driver not included though	19:41
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Presumably that's thp's MTF version of gPodder, rather than the Gtk+/Hildon one	19:41
acab_	1.1.80.0.20101005.1	19:41
acab_	what about that?	19:41
th0br0	Stskeeps: now i wish i had an n900, too !	19:41
Stskeeps	Jaffa: who says we don't have a working hildon?	19:41
Stskeeps	:P	19:42
slaine	guys. I'm having a problem I can't figure out	19:44
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slaine	trying to mount /dev/sdb1 on the live usb but it's giving me an error that it's already mounted or busy	19:44
Stskeeps	check 'mount'?	19:44
slaine	yeah, done all that, lsof, fuser too	19:45
slaine	nothing that I can see has it mounted or open	19:45
slaine	well, not lsof as it's not there	19:46
slaine	wondering if device mapper is holding it or something	19:46
slaine	(the live os is an image that's hosted on /dev/sdb1, I should still be able to mount the fat32 on /dev/sdb1 though)	19:47
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markc	irc://irc.opensuse.org/opensuse-buildservice	20:14
qgil	thiago: hi, I'm still waiting for the SF code.sprints contact - Knut didn't answer either :(	20:14
markc	doh	20:14
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hena	i wonder what kind of job it would be to hack curses with touch sensitivy...	20:19
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Jaffa	Stskeeps: A working Hildon with themeing matching the Qt/MTF theme? I'd be surprised ;-)	20:22
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auke	hena: wrong hack, you need framebuffer console touch input implemented	20:22
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auke	I think gpm already works	20:23
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slaine	auke, is it possible to mount the vfat partition on the liveOS (netbook) via the command line ?	20:24
auke	slaine: don't see why that wouldn't work...?	20:25
slaine	get an error from nautilus when booting the latest image and then in the shell it just doesn't want to do it either	20:25
slaine	basically device or resource busy	20:26
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auke	mount -t vfat /dev/.... /mnt ?	20:26
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slaine	yeah	20:28
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slaine	"mount: /dev/sdb1 already mounted or /mnt busy"	20:28
slaine	but mount doesn't show it mounted	20:28
slaine	nore does fuser show anyone using the device	20:29
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auke	cat /proc/mounts ?	20:29
bef0rd	Hey, I asked this on the forums a while ago but I did not get any answer :P http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1600 any help is welcome	20:30
slaine	yeah, nothing there	20:30
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Stskeeps	bef0rd: look at nokia-n900-configs, we ignore an accelerometer	20:31
auke	bef0rd: doesn't sound like a MeeGo-specific issue, have you looked outside MeeGo resources for clues?	20:31
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bef0rd	Stskeeps, thanks will check. auke, yes I tried adding a configuration file to make it ignore con /etc/xorg.conf.d/ but it made my touchpad and keyboard stop working too not sure what was wrong with it	20:32
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auke	Stskeeps: ah, hehe yeah that would be in the way	20:33
slaine	bef0rd: you might need a catch all evdev config in the xorg.conf.d	20:34
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pupnik	I found a completely superior oliveoil in the supermarkt Stskeeps http://www.supermarktcheck.de/product/40797-livio-natives-olivenoel-extra	20:43
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auke	lol	20:49
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dneary	Hi	20:58
dneary	slaine, How're tricks in dubberlin town?	20:58
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slaine	dneary: dirty	20:59
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dneary	You're spending too much time by the gasworks walls	20:59
slaine	It's where I met my love	21:00
slaine	You can also find me dreaming by the old canal	21:00
dneary	The Royal?	21:01
dneary	Where the oul triangle went jingle jangle?	21:01
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slaine	dneary: lol	21:08
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* qgil just created http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_vs_Android - contributions welcome!		21:47
thiago_home	MeeGo rules!	21:48
thiago_home	anything about Finnish boys in Winter?	21:49
qgil	actually better URL is http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/MeeGo_vs_Android	21:49
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qgil	thiago_home: who should I contact for code.sprints in SF? Knut didn't answer, time is running...	21:50
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Stskeeps	qgil: +1 for hitting the main points of why meego is cool :)	21:51
qgil	Stskeeps: a lot of work is still needed, in that page and in the MeeGo project ;)	21:51
thiago_home	qgil: the one leading to Dev Days?	21:51
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thiago_home	or do you mean in general?	21:51
Stskeeps	qgil: rome wasn't built in a day ;)	21:51
qgil	Stskeeps: by the way, my instinct tells me that OBS is a big asset but if you & the OBS fans can help explaining why...	21:51
qgil	thiago_home: that Pumpkin Dinner	21:52
qgil	on Saturday 1ç	21:52
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Stskeeps	qgil: i usually explain it like this.. Qt creator -> packaging step -> OBS -> repositories I can add straight to my image description (kickstart) -> create image -> deploy to device	21:53
qgil	Stskeeps: but is this much better to whatever steps you follow with Android?	21:53
Stskeeps	qgil: i must admit i haven't tried android dev env :P	21:54
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Stskeeps	qgil: and then there's of course the whole potential of business logic around OBS	21:54
qgil	Stskeeps: for instance, what about targeting different MeeGo releases/devices with OBS vs Android SDK?	21:54
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Stskeeps	qgil: 'just add another build target'	21:54
Stskeeps	(two clicks)	21:54
qgil	Stskeeps: we need good Android developers willing to explain why MeeGo does better ;)	21:54
Stskeeps	yeah	21:55
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Stskeeps	i think we have a pretty good ODM story, though	21:55
thiago_home	qgil: Alex Spehr. She's organising it.	21:55
thiago_home	Stskeeps: isn't that describing a full image?	21:56
Stskeeps	thiago_home: mm?	21:56
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thiago_home	20:53 < Stskeeps> qgil: i usually explain it like this.. Qt creator -> packaging step -> OBS -> repositories I can add straight to my image description (kickstart) -> create image -> deploy to device	21:57
Stskeeps	right	21:57
thiago_home	isn't that describing a full image build?	21:58
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Stskeeps	you can also do "add repo to your existing running image and instal"	21:58
thiago_home	most people shouldn't be flashing their devices	21:58
Stskeeps	agreed	21:58
thiago_home	they should be able to click a button in Creator (the Run or the Debug button) and have it installed and run	21:58
Stskeeps	that too	21:59
thiago_home	it works for symbian devices and Maemo5	21:59
thiago_home	it has to work for MeeGo :-)	21:59
Stskeeps	i think it does/should :)	21:59
Stskeeps	it was in the OBS context though	21:59
Stskeeps	but yeah, OBS needs to be better explained..	22:00
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Stskeeps	i'm thinking examples of how to extend a meego release etc..	22:02
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thiago_home	OBS is useful for device creators and platform developers	22:02
thiago_home	platform developers include people who need to maintain a package in the OBS	22:03
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sivang	thiago_home: hehe re: finnish boys in winter	22:08
thiago_home	:-)	22:09
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djszapi	which qt modules are installed on meego by default ?	22:33
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thiago_home	all of them except for qt3support	22:34
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djszapi	is all of them really needed ?	22:35
djszapi	for a minimal system ?	22:35
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djszapi	How much can I truncate, drop them ?	22:38
djszapi	for a minimal working system ?	22:38
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etrunko	hi, anyone here on libsocialweb development?	22:39
etrunko	s/on/working on	22:39
lbt	etrunko: ocs ?	22:39
etrunko	lbt: sorry?	22:40
lbt	open collaboration system ?	22:40
djszapi	lbt :)	22:40
djszapi	did you write on the mailing list ?	22:41
lbt	yeah... send an email ... I know ;)	22:41
djszapi	:P	22:41
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djszapi	yeah, why not.	22:41
lbt	scroll down to the bottom of this page http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking	22:41
lbt	I need to set that up tonight	22:42
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lbt	if I don't, the community OBS gets delayed some more....	22:42
djszapi	mmh	22:42
lbt	hence the sporadic delegation and recruitment attempts...	22:42
* Stskeeps passes lbt a cloning device		22:43
* lbt *lbt jumps out		22:43
* lbt lbt lbt *lbt jumps out		22:43
lbt	wee	22:43
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* CosmoHill jumps on lbt		22:44
Myrtti	Myrtti Video Productions presents: Nexus One Fail -teaser. http://flic.kr/p/8LDLhk	22:45
djszapi	thiago_home: tell me if you have got idea about Qt module truncation, dropping matter :)	22:45
lbt	CosmoHill: which one of me	22:45
CosmoHill	I have a choice?	22:46
thiago_home	djszapi: truncation?	22:46
djszapi	I mean I would like to use as few Qt modules as I can.	22:46
djszapi	I am just thinking of whether I can write my meego application safely with Qt modules.	22:46
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djszapi	but if that can be dropped it is not that safe decision.	22:47
thiago_home	djszapi: don't use the modules you don't want to use	22:47
thiago_home	that's it	22:47
djszapi	erm...	22:47
djszapi	the matter is distinct a bit.	22:47
thiago_home	I don't see how	22:47
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djszapi	well, I must parse an XML file, k ?	22:47
thiago_home	ok	22:47
djszapi	I do not know whether I can count for QtXML module.	22:47
djszapi	if the user can live with no that, I would not like to use it.	22:47
djszapi	because it is an unneccesary dependency for him.	22:48
thiago_home	what does the user have to do with anything?	22:48
thiago_home	if the user installs your app, QtXml gets installed	22:48
djszapi	that is what I am asking, whether it is needed or not.	22:48
thiago_home	what is needed?	22:48
thiago_home	all modules are available. Qt is part of the MeeGo API and will be available in all devices.	22:49
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thiago_home	all modules except for qt3support. Maybe phonon.	22:49
djszapi	the problem is more like that I would not like to cause extra dependencies for the user.	22:49
djszapi	yes, but I am not sure for example: QtXml is needed by the user for anything	22:49
thiago_home	you can use anything in the MeeGo API	22:49
djszapi	if not, my application would force him to install it.	22:49
thiago_home	the user would barely notice	22:50
qgil	Yesterday I was asking around about the "Android fragmentation" and the risks for MeeGo - I have tried to reflect all that at http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/MeeGo_vs_Android#Will_MeeGo_have_the_same_fragmentation_problems_Android_has.3F	22:50
qgil	details and relaity check welcome	22:50
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djszapi	thiago_home: it does not matter.	22:50
djszapi	normal users do not about dependencies on linux, at least the newbies :)	22:51
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djszapi	but an advanced hardcore hacker geek can require that to remove QtXML.	22:51
thiago_home	users don't care about dependencies	22:51
djszapi	if that is not needed by the system by default.	22:51
thiago_home	it gets installed, that's it	22:51
djszapi	I care about.	22:51
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thiago_home	you're not a typical user	22:52
thiago_home	typical users won't know those extra dependencies even got installed	22:52
djszapi	it is not a reason to say for my team leader for instance :P	22:52
djszapi	I feel that.	22:53
thiago_home	tell me the last time you installed an app on MeeGo and gave up because it required other dependencies you didn't want to install	22:53
djszapi	there are still people using tile window managers and so on.	22:53
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thiago_home	completely irrelevant	22:54
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thiago_home	why are you changing the subject?	22:54
thiago_home	when a user tries to install an app, the package manager will simply install the dependencies	22:54
thiago_home	the user won't even know that dependencies got installed	22:54
djszapi	I am not sure it is distinct, the point is here the lightweight thing.	22:54
thiago_home	what lightweight thing?	22:54
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djszapi	lightweight solutions.	22:55
rittk	how to sacrifice a package to the meego's repo?	22:55
thiago_home	what lightweight solutions?	22:55
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thiago_home	rittk: huh?	22:55
djszapi	thiago_home: I do not see the point of your question.	22:55
Myrtti	rittk: you need 3 herrings, 2 sticks of incense and a penguin feather	22:55
thiago_home	I don't see the point of your argument	22:55
djszapi	there are people liking lightweight solutions...	22:56
djszapi	what is the question about this ?	22:56
thiago_home	irrelevant	22:56
thiago_home	this is #meego	22:56
thiago_home	all MeeGo devices will have all Qt modules (except for Qt3Support)	22:56
RST38h	and there are people who like building heavyweight solutions	22:56
djszapi	Ubuntu has got gnome installation	22:56
thiago_home	irrelevant	22:56
RST38h	guess which ones prevail here	22:56
thiago_home	Ubuntu is not MeeGo	22:56
djszapi	but there are a couple of users using ratpoison	22:56
djszapi	so they drop, remove gnome	22:56
rittk	thiago_home: I've built the Midnight Commander and ntfs-3g since I mess them on meego	22:56
djszapi	and I am thinking of about the same on meego	22:57
* CosmoHill offers popcorn		22:57
djszapi	whether an advanced user can drop qt modules.	22:57
rittk	thiago_home: now, I'd prefer to contribute them to official repo	22:57
thiago_home	djszapi: all MeeGo devices will have all Qt modules, plus Qt Mobility modules working, plus some more	22:57
djszapi	that was my first question :)	22:57
wmarone	djszapi: you can replace the user interface, sure, but if you swap out Qt you aren't using MeeGo anymore	22:57
thiago_home	djszapi: the user cannot	22:57
thiago_home	any device with any Qt module missing is not MeeGo	22:57
djszapi	wmarone: this is not about the interface at all	22:57
djszapi	QtXML is not interface	22:57
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thiago_home	the use of the brand "MeeGo" requires having all Qt modules installed	22:57
wmarone	djszapi: that's what it sounds like to me, what with all your offtopic examples	22:57
thiago_home	or available, at least	22:57
* RST38h hehes at that		22:58
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djszapi	RST38h: if there are heavyweight people, it does not mean there are no lightweight people.	22:58
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thiago_home	djszapi: yes, a user can install Android on their devices. So what?	22:58
djszapi	the people are different.	22:58
thiago_home	if people install a different OS, it's their problem	22:58
thiago_home	you're targeting MeeGo. MeeGo has Qt.	22:58
thiago_home	problem solved.	22:58
RST38h	djszapi: heavweight people have got bigger impulse :)	22:58
djszapi	Ubuntu has got Gnome.	22:58
thiago_home	MeeGo doesn't	22:59
thiago_home	nor KDE for that matter	22:59
djszapi	couple of people do not use that.	22:59
RST38h	Anyway, I do not see your insistence to have Qtless Meego	22:59
* thiago_home gives up		22:59
wmarone	Qt is the whole point of MeeGo, isn't it?	22:59
RST38h	Meego is simply a Linux distro. You can use any Linux distro you like.	22:59
thiago_home	I've explained this more than once	22:59
RST38h	wmarone: Not really, but don't tell that to thiago :)	22:59
thiago_home	wmarone: well, not the whole point, but a good portion of the point	22:59
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thiago_home	wmarone: there are other points :-)	22:59
wmarone	right	22:59
djszapi	RST38h: you still did not understand the point :)	23:00
djszapi	it is not a distribution question	23:00
thiago_home	djszapi: it is	23:00
thiago_home	MeeGo is a distribuion. MeeGo has Qt.	23:00
djszapi	it is more like whether I can safely use qt modules	23:00
thiago_home	all devices called "MeeGo" have Qt.	23:00
djszapi	whether I can tell that to my boss	23:00
djszapi	we should use QtXML for parsing	23:00
RST38h	djszapi: YOu can	23:00
djszapi	whether it is safe solution	23:00
thiago_home	and you shouldn't use QtXml for parsing	23:00
djszapi	or we should write our own parser.	23:00
RST38h	djszapi: Is that all you wanted to know?	23:00
djszapi	thiago_home: ubuntu is a distribution	23:01
djszapi	ubuntu has gnome.	23:01
thiago_home	djszapi: ubuntu is not meego	23:01
thiago_home	this is the #meego channel	23:01
thiago_home	we're talking about meego	23:01
ColKilkenny	pink floyd has this song lost for words and the lyrics at the end go "you know you just can't win"	23:01
thiago_home	ubuntu is off-topic	23:01
djszapi	off-topic in that way you think of that.	23:01
wmarone	off topic in that this is not Ubuntu	23:02
djszapi	but it is a good example for the people who would like to create a minimal Meego environment on their devices	23:02
jarkkom	so I tested MMC installation of Meego on N900 but app startup times were like 30-60 seconds, is it just MMC generally being really slow causing it?	23:02
rittk	plz stop	23:02
rittk	djszapi: what is you question? shortly	23:02
thiago_home	djszapi: minimal MeeGo environment CONTAINS Qt	23:02
ColKilkenny	if someone screws up their os it's their own choice	23:02
thiago_home	djszapi: all of Qt	23:02
ColKilkenny	they can remove libc as well	23:02
thiago_home	djszapi: the most minimal MeeGo (MeeGo Core) contains Qt	23:02
thiago_home	djszapi: you cannot remove ANY module from MeeGo	23:02
djszapi	what will happen ?	23:02
thiago_home	if you do, it's not MeeGo anymore	23:02
wmarone	you aren't meego anymore	23:02
djszapi	if I remove qtxml for example.	23:03
thiago_home	then you don't have meego	23:03
thiago_home	and then we don't care	23:03
djszapi	wmarone: you still did not get the point	23:03
wmarone	you done broked it	23:03
djszapi	it is not that question whether it is meego	23:03
CosmoHill	I think thiago_home's point if the Legal definition of MeeGo	23:03
thiago_home	this is #meego. We're talking about MeeGo. MeeGo has all of Qt modules.	23:03
djszapi	it is the question whether is lightweight meego.	23:03
thiago_home	this is #meego. We're talking about MeeGo. MeeGo has all of Qt modules.	23:03
thiago_home	do you need me to repeat a third time?	23:03
CosmoHill	thiago_home: go away and have a cup of tea or something	23:03
wmarone	djszapi: the lighest meego gets is exactly what thiago_home just said	23:03
wmarone	lightest*	23:03
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* RST38h finds this course of discussion disturbing		23:03
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CosmoHill	yay it's DawnFoster to save the day	23:04
thiago_home	CosmoHill: yeah, I'm just gonna go away for a while	23:04
DawnFoster	uh oh. I'm afraid to ask what you guys have been up to :)	23:04
CosmoHill	thiago_home is going to have a cup of tea or something AFK	23:05
thiago_home	DawnFoster: I still haven't found dark chocolate for you	23:05
CosmoHill	and djszapi is going to stop asking about meego and qt modules	23:05
djszapi	:)	23:05
DawnFoster	thiago_home: that's OK, you can buy me a drink in Dublin :)	23:05
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CosmoHill	i think chocolate might be cheaper	23:05
thiago_home	DawnFoster: oh, I'll be in Portland next week. That's why I was thinking of bringing chocolate to you. To thank for all the help here and in the Conference organisation.	23:06
djszapi	thiago_home: why should not I use qt for xml handling ?	23:07
DawnFoster	thiago_home: oh cool - what are you doing in Portland? Visiting us at Intel?	23:07
djszapi	I have already done it several times, nifty :)	23:07
CosmoHill	djszapi: i think his point is that definition of meego is that is has all the Qt modules	23:07
djszapi	CosmoHill: it is already another question ...	23:08
CosmoHill	like the definition of a convertable is that the roof folds down	23:08
rittk	djszapi: you shouldn't but you ca :)	23:08
thiago_home	DawnFoster: yep, that plus another company in Portland	23:08
rittk	*can	23:08
CosmoHill	from a software point of view bugger all will happen if you remove one Qt module	23:08
djszapi	rittk: should not ?	23:08
thiago_home	I'll be in the US for almost 2 weeks this time. Record for me.	23:08
thiago_home	longest since I went to Disney when I was 13	23:09
djszapi	CosmoHill: you said me to stop and you continue ...	23:09
CosmoHill	I'm trying to end it	23:09
DawnFoster	thiago_home: nice - when do you get into Portland? (We have a BarCamp on Saturday you might be interested in attending)	23:09
djszapi	thank you.	23:09
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DawnFoster	http://barcampportland.org/	23:09
thiago_home	DawnFoster: I arrive on Wednesday 27 and leave on the 29	23:09
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CosmoHill	so..everyone ready for the snow?	23:09
djszapi	thiago_home: did you mean the core module is enough for that ? Or what did you mean with this xml handling ?	23:09
thiago_home	CosmoHill: it's already -4°C here	23:09
thiago_home	djszapi: QtCore has QXmlStreamReader and you should use that	23:10
w00t_	thiago_home: sounds like the right temperature to me ;)	23:10
djszapi	yes, of course	23:10
djszapi	but I need feature from QtXML :P	23:10
thiago_home	w00t_: dropping to -7 until tomorrow morning	23:10
thiago_home	djszapi: QXmlStreamReader is all you need :-)	23:10
djszapi	:) k then.	23:10
DawnFoster	thiago_home: let me know when you are going to be at Intel (I work from home a lot, but can come in the office)	23:10
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thiago_home	DawnFoster: Thursday 28 afternoon and Friday 29	23:11
thiago_home	DawnFoster: but I'll send you an email closer to that	23:11
DawnFoster	thiago_home: I'll probably be in the office both of those days for other meetings.	23:11
* thiago_home ponders that this stay which is his longest since he want to Disney also starts with Orlando		23:11
DawnFoster	so I'll see you then!	23:11
thiago_home	DawnFoster: yup	23:12
thiago_home	DawnFoster: any Qt goodies or freebies you'd like?	23:12
* thiago_home can bring stickers, pens, reflectors		23:12
djszapi	can someone give me a list about the installed packages on MeeGo by default ?	23:12
DawnFoster	thiago_home: stickers are always good :)	23:12
thiago_home	DawnFoster: I'll bring a bunch then	23:12
djszapi	just to make sure what I can use safely :P	23:12
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Stskeeps	moo jebba	23:13
jebba	heya	23:13
jebba	:)	23:13
jebba	so how is it a file like repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/source/binutils-2.20.51.0.2-12.44.src.rpm gets added to trunk today, but the last %changelog is from like May? odd.	23:13
Stskeeps	jebba: *.changes file?	23:13
araujo	djszapi, though still draft, you might like to check http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/Compliance#Specification	23:14
Stskeeps	or a rebuild only?	23:14
Stskeeps	jebba: that's a 404 for me though	23:14
jebba	well, like *.changes, but i mean: rpm -qp --changelog repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/source/binutils-2.20.51.0.2-12.44.src.rpm	23:14
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: didn't for me	23:14
jebba	i'm rsyncing from mirrors.kernel.org fwiw	23:14
CosmoHill	ah, the rpm file did 404	23:14
djszapi	araujo: ty	23:15
CosmoHill	lbt: may I PM you?	23:15
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Stskeeps	jebba: checking	23:15
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jebba	http://mirrors.kernel.org/meego/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/source/binutils-2.20.51.0.2-12.46.src.rpm	23:15
* jebba notes may have looked at old file 1 sec		23:16
jebba	ya, above i did -12-44, not -12-46, but it's still the same ;)	23:17
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jebba	for clarity, this file was added today, but no %changelog; repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/source/binutils-2.20.51.0.2-12.46.src.rpm	23:19
Stskeeps	jebba: 12.46 is commitid (in obs).rebuildid - http://pastie.org/1236420	23:19
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Stskeeps	the srcrpm version follows the binary version	23:19
Stskeeps	as it's generated in same run	23:20
Stskeeps	so you'll see it as a 'new rpm' but it's in fact the same old	23:21
* CosmoHill pokes thiago_home and arjan		23:21
jebba	ah, just bumped. In fedora when they do mass rebuilds/bumping, they note it in the changelog	23:21
sivang	wow, I just now see that-	23:22
sivang	http://meego.com/community/blogs/harrihakulinen/2010/meego-calling-n900	23:22
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sivang	1.3 with dual booting to meego?? Stskeeps you have been busy!	23:22
lbt	the problem with bumps in the clog	23:22
jebba	like this, for example:	23:22
jebba	* Tue Feb 19 2008 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng@fedoraproject.org> - 0.18-2	23:22
jebba	- Autorebuild for GCC 4.3	23:22
lbt	is that the OBS rebuilds far too much	23:22
lbt	(for that purpose)	23:22
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pupnik	" I am proud to announce that we will propose Carsten as the official N900 maintainer for MeeGo in the next TSG meeting. I am fully confident that he is the best single person on this planet to handle that position" < no kidding on that	23:25
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CosmoHill	anyone who hasn't voted on the community OBS sub-domain please vote now here: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1671	23:27
CosmoHill	you have about 10 ~ 30 minutes	23:27
th0br0	i seriously dislike the cobs and pub :S	23:27
* araujo goes for it		23:27
th0br0	but gonna vote	23:28
lbt	vote for cobs	23:28
CosmoHill	vote what what you want	23:28
CosmoHill	you can make suggestions	23:28
th0br0	no, given the limited time ...	23:28
th0br0	huh why 10-30 min? it's open until 11-09-10 !	23:28
CosmoHill	so far nobody has given a suggestion AND selected other	23:28
lbt	not anymore :)	23:28
CosmoHill	th0br0: yeah, it turns out you can't edit a poll once you've made one	23:28
th0br0	is com.meego.com in use?	23:28
CosmoHill	the poll is a guide for the the sub-domain, the winning vote might not be used	23:29
th0br0	oh	23:29
th0br0	well, pub it is for me. although that reminds me of an ftp dir :(	23:30
th0br0	or rather that there is a *.priv.meego.com	23:30
CosmoHill	for example "dev" which I'm sure someone has just voted for probably won't be used since developer.meego.com exsits	23:30
berndhs	hey lets name it after the competition	23:30
CosmoHill	we've had "extra" and "contib" or something like that suggestede	23:31
berndhs	or something completely non-sensical	23:31
th0br0	like auki ? :D	23:31
CosmoHill	build.xkcd.meego.com ?	23:31
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araujo	lbt, I liked that one ...	23:34
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lbt	looks like pub.	23:35
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araujo	though it seems there is another favorite one :P	23:35
lbt	dev is a no-no	23:35
lbt	so don't bother :)	23:35
araujo	definitely	23:35
araujo	actually I didn't like the rest ....	23:36
araujo	cobs seems straight and with a reasonable meaning .... anyway, let the community to decide :P	23:36
CosmoHill	yes, please don't vote for dev	23:37
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