IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2010-10-03

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Stskeepsthen there's the platform tinkers has a place as they can hack the platform00:00
sofarTSCHAKeee2: ok just saw the end of the video. Overall: functionality == great. menu's look like a maze, too many web frontends involved? UI looks like a patch blanket a bit. Apart from that it looks extremely interestign and if I'd have a device to spare I'd try it out00:00
TSCHAKeee2sofar: that demo is three years old, and we've been systematically dealing with those issues.. the UI will be completely replaced, which is part of the reason I am in here.00:01
GAN900Stskeeps, most of the core people started on ITt00:02
GAN900as a bunch of engaged users00:02
GAN900since maemo.org was just a bunch of docs and a giant wikipage for applications.00:03
TSCHAKeee2sofar: as for me, i've budgeted the next 20 years of my research work time on this project.00:03
StskeepsGAN900: right, and mailing lists?00:03
sofarTSCHAKeee2: well, as soon as you have something demoable on meego... :)00:03
sofarreminds me to wonder what the status of the community OBS is...00:03
TSCHAKeee2i have to design a new UI paradigm that can work well across MeeGo, Android, iOS, etc.00:03
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GAN900Stskeeps, those too, although nobody used them00:04
GAN90090% of the interesting stuff was on ITt.00:05
StskeepsGAN900: so it was people tinkering with their devices, i guess?00:05
GAN900engaged users00:05
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GAN900Basically, yeah.00:06
Stskeepswell, what does that mean.00:06
Stskeeps:P00:06
Stskeepsright00:06
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Stskeepsso for the people tinkering with the platform there's still plenty of room, from a code basis, or making things work differently and contributing it back - in fact, they have even more opportunity00:07
Stskeepsas there's no stupid closed source in the platform00:08
* johnx cheers from the sideline00:08
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Stskeepsi mean, even johnx is back00:08
Stskeeps:P00:08
sofarthe whole point of meego was to make a linux distro for vendors that developers (community) would support00:09
sofarwas/is00:09
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sofarbut, it's a hard fight no matter what00:09
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Stskeepsnothing stops anyone from making Freedom MeeGo either00:11
Stskeeps:P00:11
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Stskeepsso vendors is a large term.. can be a hobbyist or a telco or a handset producer00:11
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Stskeepsor a subset of people, like maemo.org00:11
Stskeeps:P00:11
sofara vendor could be an open source project making an open source product00:11
sofaror, OLPC00:11
sofaror ...00:11
Stskeeps:nod:00:11
Stskeepsor linuxmce00:12
Stskeeps:P00:12
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johnxbut there is a concept of a 'vanilla' meego with no vendor modifications, right?00:12
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Stskeepsright, which is the published platform + ref apps00:12
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GAN900Stskeeps, except the conferences are on weekdays, people wanting to run MeeGo on Nvidia hardware are asked why Intel should have to support competitors, and things are generally very OEM focused.00:13
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johnxhas anyone with an nvidia card solved whatever problem meego has with nvidia and tried to contribute back a patch?00:13
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Stskeepsjohnx: there's no real problem, someone just needs to take responsibility and contribute. problem is that we don't take closed drivers in kernel, it's bad form :P00:14
w00t_you don't take open ones either afaik00:14
StskeepsGAN900: weekdays is a matter of attracting as many as needed - and even with weekdays we're at ~580 signups00:14
* w00t_ finds the bug report00:14
sofarsomeone needs to package xf86-video-nouveau and pledge allegiance to the Trunk00:14
Stskeepsthe important part is 'take responsibility and maintain it'00:15
johnxStskeeps, but it boots up with software GL, right? enough for them to yum install nvidia-driver?00:15
Stskeepsjohnx: not the netbook ux00:15
johnxaaaah00:15
johnxnow I see :)00:15
StskeepsGAN900: things probably seem OEM focused as well, we're noone if we only attract hippies running meego on their freerunners00:16
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GAN900Stskeeps, yes, well, doesn't make things friendlier.00:17
johnxis there a reason netbook won't boot with software GL?00:18
johnxthat almost seems like the more interesting shortcoming00:18
Stskeepsthe thing is however also that people need to read what the pages say and how things get into MeeGo platform and on roadmap.. the information has been extremely lackluster and principles behind not properly explained00:19
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Stskeepsgenerally if you show up with a shovel and a couple of men to get the job done and maintain things, that gets things done00:20
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Stskeepswhen you have something you need done in meego, then you need to either 1) convince someone it's a good idea to pour resources in or 2) pour resources into it yourself00:21
Stskeeps:P00:21
Stskeepswhich is fair00:21
Stskeeps(in terms of features, fwiw)00:21
Stskeepsevening andre___00:21
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w00t_the problem there i think is that 1) seems easier said than done, and 2) is not as easy as you'd think for individuals to organise00:22
johnxw00t_, and that could be said for a lot of open source projects ...00:22
Stskeeps1) is always difficult since money is involved00:22
Stskeepsand 2) could be done if someone just gathers together00:22
Stskeepsi hope to show that with beagleboard peeps and motivate them in the right direction :P00:23
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w00t_johnx: difference being is that a lot of other projects are usually not expecting you to implement pretty much the basics of the platform (e.g. making third party apps work) for them00:23
Stskeeps2) we need to help assist, though00:23
w00t_basically it's usually expected as a baseline that the project does what it says on the tin or nobody will use it in the first place00:24
andre___heja Stskeeps00:24
w00t_andre___: o/00:24
johnxw00t_, there are plenty of other distributions that work exactly that way :)00:24
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kdasyo meego people whats up00:29
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kdasi have a problem with skype under meego can someone help me out? When skype loads up it looks ugly and when i try to login it takes minutes before it logins. I am using the 1.1 trunk00:30
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kdasalso, is it possible to have fedora/suse repos for extra rpms or is that a bad idea?00:31
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sofarthey might work, usually it'll be a miss though00:32
* Stskeeps ponders if normal qt apps not working on handset ux is a big problem or not.00:33
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kdassofar: what about my skype problem ?00:34
sofarkdas: that's probably worth a bugreport. make sure you got the right skype rpm00:35
kdasyea i donwnloaded the fedora one the dynamic and static and surprisingly they all gave the same results00:35
sofarget the one from skype.com instead00:36
kdasyea all the 3 mentioned are from skype.com00:36
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sofarah ok00:37
sofarthose should work, they work for me00:37
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kdassofar: which version of meego are you using00:38
kdasi am using the 1.1 trunk00:38
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sofarkdas: I'm a paid MeeGo developer from Intel. I use everything00:39
kdasso just tested skype on this box(meego) vs ubuntu box and ubuntu acts normal and this one takes forever to log on so for sure it is a meego problem00:39
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sofarkdas: what's the cause of the problem is unclear, but it's worth filing a bugreport :)00:40
kdassofar: awwww. Well if you have a 1.1 trunk installed somewhere could you confirm that you are getting normal meego activity00:40
sofarkdas: just tried it. starts immediately, connecting takes under 5 seconds00:41
sofarskype 2.1 beta00:42
kdason 1.1 trunk? hmmmm00:42
sofarthere is no "1.1 trunk", there's 1.0, 1.1 and trunk00:43
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kdasi had to ln -s /etc/zypp/repos.d to /etc/yum.repos.d to get to see any of the repos in the package manager (another bug i guess)00:43
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sofarleftover issue, in the future everything will be zypper00:45
kdassofar: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.1.80.0.20101001.1/netbook/images/meego-netbook-ia32/ <-- this is where i got the image from00:45
kdasso that is 1.1 i am assuming00:45
johnxyeah, but from january :P00:45
sofarthat's 'trunk'00:45
sofarnot 1.100:46
sofar1.1.80 means it's pre-1.200:46
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sofar1.0.90 is pre-1.100:46
sofarbut, it should be fine to use00:46
kdasso where is 1.1 because http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/   does not have any 1.1, unless 1.0.99 = 1.100:47
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sofar1.1 isn't released yet00:48
sofartherefore, 1.1 is "1.0.X" where X >= 8000:48
kdasjohnx: yea its from january and what is weird when i tried to update/upgrade nothing was upgraded so no development?00:48
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kdassofar: awww i love random number schemes :P00:49
kdassofar: ok so then may I bother you to try skype on the 1.2 pre (the one i am using) ?00:49
sofarthat's what I just tried it on00:50
johnxkdas, lots of development happened, but I don't think updating necessarily works in what you downloaded ...00:50
sofarjohnx: there's plenty going on in trunk right now, especially since we just forked 1.1 off of trunk00:50
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kdasjohnx: Yikes! my repos are pointing to http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/preview/core/repos/ia32/packages so shouldn't it upgrade?00:51
kdasjohnx: so you think the skype issue has to do with my box only?00:51
kdassofar: ^^^00:51
GAN900Didn't Reggie form a new MeeGo forum?00:52
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sofarkdas: what system do you have?00:52
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kdassofar: eee 1000 (sd version)00:52
sofarthen I have no idea00:54
StskeepsGAN900: allaboutmeego.com or something00:55
kdashttp://meego.com/user not sending me password for account. So much for bug reporting00:55
johnxkdas, at least try downloading a the image that sofar pointed you at. The one you grabbed is probably a lost cause00:56
kdasjohnx: could you explain how i could get my system up to speed with the trunk because i was surprised that there was no updates after install that image.00:56
sofarjohnx: I never pointed him to an image00:56
sofarkdas: that image is 1 day old00:56
johnxdidn't you suggest a 1.0.9x?00:56
kdasjohnx: what he said^00:56
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sofarjohnx: no he's fine on 1.1.80...00:57
kdassofar: oh.... johnx gave me the impression it was for january00:57
sofarkdas: there's obviously no updates to an image that was posted yesterday :)00:57
sofarnaw file time on that page clearly says october 1st00:57
johnxcrap. I misparsed the date >_<00:57
johnxapologies for being confusing00:57
kdasand i didn't check00:57
sofardyslexic ? :)00:57
sofar 01-Oct-2010 17:10  755M00:57
johnxsofar, not once I have enough coffee in me00:57
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johnxworking on that ...00:57
sofarjohnx: np I've had plenty :D00:58
kdasso this is odd is there some debugging i can do? does your skype font look awful ?00:58
GAN900Stskeeps, I just don't see meego.com ever being for MeeGo what maemo.org was for Maemo.00:58
johnxGAN900, and I still think part of that is that meego is very different from maemo00:59
GAN900I was picturing working towards that end towards the beginning of the year.01:00
GAN900But there's been an awful lot of pushback.01:00
GAN900johnx, indeed01:00
sofarkdas: that's a known issue... bug is assigned to me01:00
johnxmeego is closer to 'OpenEmbedded' in a way, and maemo is closer to ... i dunno, some vendor specific OS01:00
kdassofar: just to make sure i am doing things right btw. when i install the skype fedora package from skype.com i use zypper install skype-2.1*.rpm and then it complains about missing qt4-x11 which i saw was provided by libqt4(something) package so i ignored and said install without checking dependencies. Is that right?01:01
sofarhttp://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=689401:01
GAN900Which is why I don't know if meego.com is capable of brining the right elements together to be a home of that sort of collaborative magic.01:01
sofarkdas: yes that's fine01:01
GAN900Which is sad to say, since it obsoleted maemo.org.01:01
kdassofar: that is soo freaking weird. Why would it work for you and not for me. Is there some QT settings or skype debugging i can do?01:02
kdasi removed the empathy package btw if that harms anything01:02
johnxGAN900, with companies shipping vendorized versions of meego, I don't even know how much interest phone users will have in a 'vanilla' meego anyways01:02
sofaryou could run an strace and see where it's stuck01:02
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sofarunfortunately, skype is a pig and hard to strace (and make sense of the data)01:02
kdassofar: to tell you the truth i hate skype and don't use it, but setting this up for my wife.01:03
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GAN900johnx, turning engaged users into contributors is going to be harder now.01:04
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johnxGAN900, yes, but the things they can contribute to will be more worthwhile01:05
kdassofar: to confirm, removing empathy should have not had any affect on my config right?01:05
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sofarsure01:06
GAN900Well, I certainly wish the project the best of luck.01:06
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johnxGAN900, so what do you think would be a good strategy to ease people along in terms of getting involved?01:07
GAN900johnx, I don't know.01:07
kdassofar: weird again... pidgin->yahoo connects no problem, pidgin->gmail i am getting some connection problems01:07
johnxGAN900, device subforums under meego? that might get a bit insane over time though01:08
GAN900Less pushback from many sectors when people are trying, would help01:08
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johnxGAN900, is this happening on the meego forums?01:09
johnx(trying to minimize my distractions, lately)01:09
GAN900johnx, no01:09
GAN900I don't bother with the forums.01:09
johnxmailing lists?01:09
GAN900Just a general trend I've seen in the projec01:09
GAN900t01:09
kdasbrb i am going to try to pull of some windoze magic (aka rebooting to solve problems)01:09
GAN900IRC, mailing lists, bugzilla, etc.01:10
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johnxGAN900, I think that might get better when there are more 'mid level' users to answer the questions of beginners01:10
GAN900Pre-entrenchment is a big problem.01:10
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GAN900johnx, not even a question of beginners. It's established contributors running into walls.01:10
johnxah, when they want to get stuff committed?01:11
GAN900and higher level things.01:11
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johnxwell, there's always going to be pushback when there are suggestions made about architectural changes01:12
GAN900The MeeGo spec discussion is an interesting one, since clearly the thread wasn't opened with any real interest in productive discussion.01:12
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GAN900johnx, well, of course.01:12
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kdas_back01:12
kdas_winmagic did not work01:13
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GAN900Anyway, whatever. It's not something I'll be investing much, if any, real time in.01:14
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kdas_well sofar thanks for help01:14
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kdassorry disconnected01:20
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kdasis there a way to use zypper without having to kill PackageKit each time?01:25
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sofarwe should have a bug for that :/01:25
kdassofar: i just started up meego from usb (so fresh) on my other eee1000 and skype is showing the same behavior01:26
kdasso you much have something special installed or skype and meego hate the eee100001:26
kdasi could try it on my other laptop.....01:27
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sofarfile a bug01:28
sofarour QA teams have eee1000's so they can test it01:29
kdasi would if bugs.meego ever sends me a password for the account i signed up for :P01:29
kdassofar: well i can test on another laptop, which i am about to do01:29
kdashow do i start the installer from within the meego environment ?01:29
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sofarthere's a program somewhere but I forgot01:31
kdasheheh.. do they pay you enough at intel?01:31
sofarask my manager that (please)01:32
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kdashahahha!01:32
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kdasi forgot meego don't like nvidia. So much for that test01:33
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kdassofar: you think installing 1.0.99 would be a better idea?01:36
sofarkdas: doubt it01:36
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kdassofar: since i can't file a bug can you ask your friends over at intel about this issue and see whats up? also, when you tested out skype on this meego version that i have is it a fresh install or does it have other pkgs installed and if so which ones01:39
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sofarI'm sorry, you'll have to file a bug01:40
sofarby the time I get back to work on monday I will have forgotten this conversation completely01:40
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smithnasofar: you wouldn't happen to know anything about intel drivers?01:42
CosmoHillsomething to do with a lack of coffee smithna?01:43
CosmoHillsammit01:43
CosmoHillsofar:*01:43
sofarsmithna: what about them?01:43
sofarCosmoHill: no, it's just weekend and I'm off (and should not be here at this time)01:43
CosmoHillmakes sense01:43
smithnaI've had an on-going issue, which I would ask on the intel-gfx channel, but I'm not allowed to post to it01:43
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sofarwhat about it01:44
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smithnaThe latest drivers remove the ability to change/set refresh rate && horizontal sync in the xorg.conf file.  It gets those settings from EDID or uses some defaults (set somewhere)01:45
CosmoHillsofar: if you think you shouldn\'t be here in weekends what do you think about thiago_home?01:45
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sofarCosmoHill: ? what about thiago?01:45
sofarsmithna: does xrandr still allow you to change those parameters?01:46
smithnaWhich works ok for most monitors.  However, I have a monitor that doesn't provide EDID data and doesn't fit right with the defaults....01:46
smithnanope01:46
sofarah, that certainly sounds like a bug01:46
CosmoHillsofar: he's always here and he doesn't sleep01:46
smithnaSince its native resolution is 800x48001:47
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smithnaThe default values preclude setting that resolution01:47
sofarsmithna: what kind of display is that?01:48
sofarsmithna: worth filing a bugreport though, even a bugs.meego.com one01:48
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smithnaoh, didn't think of putting it on meego...01:49
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smithnahttp://www.lilliput.cn/EBY701-NP.html01:49
sofarwhy not? we can assign to the intel gfx people from there just fine01:49
sofarand if this is a meego system....01:49
smithnaIt sure is01:49
sofarwell then01:49
smithnaWill do01:50
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kdassofar: ok I am on another machine now running meego02:29
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kdasand skype has same problems so it is for sure a meebo thing not a hardware thing02:29
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CosmoHillcyas02:32
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sinnyHi! where I can get the source code of Meego-handset?08:39
sofarmeego.gitorious.org has most of the UX components. the rest you need to get from src.rpms at repo.meego.com08:40
sinnysofar: thank you so much :)08:42
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bef0rdhi09:05
bef0rdI'm trying to create a rule to make xorg not use my Joystick as a mouse, but when I added something on /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d the mouse and keyboard stopped working :P any hint is appreciated :D09:06
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mrtroll!time09:08
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mrtrollwh00p09:09
mrtrollwho's got the time ?09:09
* mrtroll is here!09:10
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mrtrollsinny09:11
mrtrollsup09:11
mrtrollHEY!09:12
mrtrollWHAT IS MEEGO?09:12
mrtrollHELLO09:13
mrtrollARE YOU HOME?09:13
mrtrollHUH09:14
mrtrollWHAT THE FUCK09:14
mrtrollEVERYBODY SLEEPING OR WHAT ?09:14
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mrtrollMACDRUNK, WHATS UP09:14
mrtrollTROLLKARLEN, WHATS UP09:14
mrtrollSOMEBODY TELL A NIGA WHAT MEEGO IS09:15
* mrtroll WONDERS IF U FEWLS HAVE A WWW SITE09:15
mrtroll?09:15
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mrtrollBYE COTIGAO09:15
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mrtrollWELL09:16
mrtrollWHAT09:16
mrtrollIS09:16
mrtrollTHE09:16
mrtrollDEAL09:16
mrtrollWITH09:16
mrtrollTHIS09:16
mrtrollDEAD09:16
mrtrollASS09:16
mrtrollCHANNEL09:16
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wmaroneand the troll defeats himself!09:32
wmaronerofl09:32
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TSCHAKeee2wow,09:34
TSCHAKeee2wonders of stupidity never cease.09:34
sofarsigh09:43
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falehello09:44
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sofarhi09:44
faleI've seen that last 1.0.x build is dated 29 september, while the 1st octobe one is tagged as 1.1.80... 1.1.80 shouldn't be an alpha of 1.2?09:45
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sofarwe branched for 1.1 off trunk09:45
sofartrunk is now officially pre-1.209:45
sofarso, 1.1.8009:45
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sofarso yes, trunk is a pre-alpha for 1.209:46
faleI see :) so, to have something really close to 1.1 I'll have to take the september 29th, one, right?09:46
sofarif you want to follow 1.1 development, don't use 1.1.80+09:47
falethanks, sofar :)09:47
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faleI dunno if you can answer this, but.... can you tell the date of the 1.1 release?09:47
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sofarwhen?09:49
falesofar: yep ;)09:49
sofarstandard answer to when questions: "before christmas, but I won't say which year"09:49
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falehehe ;)09:49
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falethanks, anyway09:50
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sofarthere's rumors plenty09:51
faleI was going to fill bugs, but I decided to move to last trunk (of 1.1) before doing so, just to not notify bugs that are already been fixed09:52
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sofarplease report any more trolling to me if you see any. PM me so I get a log and can work with freenode staff.09:54
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falehow am I supposed to format a device on meego?11:14
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JaffaMorning, all11:32
Stskeepsmorn11:33
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JaffaStskeeps: Is "yeah, we've released this shiny platform, but you can't write your own plain Qt apps for it" *really* going to be a good message in November?11:33
StskeepsJaffa: that part i don't disagree with11:33
StskeepsJaffa: it was about the email part11:33
JaffaThe platform will be a laughing stock on Engadget, Ars, OSNews, LWN, ...11:34
StskeepsJaffa: i think someone just didn't get the message of how big that bug actually is :)11:34
Stskeepsso i'm going to make an undeniable bug report for it11:34
JaffaStskeeps: Indeed; but as you know a platform without apps isn't easy to make successful. If people can't use it (say to do their email), they won't use it regularly, so they won't hack on it11:35
Stskeepswell, otoh a really buggy implementation also reflects badly11:35
Stskeepsso it's a hard choice11:36
JaffaStskeeps: Very true11:36
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Stskeepsi just spent a week getting fennec on ARM up to shape (crashed on boot for some awful reason) so we're really trying our best, but it's hard to say that 1.1 is at the stage as was hoped initially11:38
Stskeepsi'm kinda hoping someone will pick up 1.1 and do a n900-centric 'end-user' thing for it11:38
Stskeepsshould be really easy11:38
Stskeepsespecially if you take back 1.2 bits11:39
Stskeeps(time to bring back Mer? ;p)11:39
johnxgah11:40
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Stskeepsmm?11:41
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johnxStskeeps, the thought of reviving mer and making a fork of another distro11:44
Stskeepsnah, not fork11:44
Stskeepsproductize11:44
Stskeeps:P11:44
johnxaaah, so more like the relationship between debian and maemo? :P11:44
Stskeepsless insane11:45
johnxinsanity creeps in around the edges11:45
johnxI'm sure the people who designed maemo didn't sit down and think 'gee, let's do something totally insane.'11:45
johnxI'm sure they just made the 'expedient' choice when problems came up11:45
johnxoh course, I won't dissuade anyone else from doing that11:46
Stskeepsbut frankly.. things will look very good for 1.2, but it's a 6 month cycle away11:46
Stskeepsand with small leaps you can greatly improve matters11:47
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johnxso more like 'backports'11:48
Stskeepsyeah11:49
Stskeepswe'll be staying on .35 for 1.2 too it sounds like, so even kernel improvements will be easy11:49
johnxsorry. that initial overreaction is still pretty hardwired :)11:49
Stskeepsi think the important thing is just to maintain images11:49
Stskeeps:P11:49
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* Stskeeps should make one of those images with sgx vsync..11:51
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falehi12:25
faleis there a wiki-page where there is a list of netbook models with the status of support?12:26
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StskeepsJaffa: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=788112:29
thiago_homefale: I think so12:29
Stskeeps(and thiago might want to read that one too)12:30
falehi thiago_home :). Well, I hope there is, but I've searched with google but haven't found it :(12:30
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thiago_homefale: try searching the wiki instead :-)12:31
thiago_homeStskeeps: sounds like a driver bug12:32
Stskeepsthiago_home: it happens on both handset UX SDK (x86) and N90012:32
thiago_homeok, then a compositor bug12:32
Stskeepsyeah12:32
thiago_homecan you run stuff like xev?12:32
Stskeepsxterm shows same issue12:33
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Stskeepswe've tried to imply the consequences of even xterm not working in other bugs, but hopefully this one gets the right attention :/12:33
* thiago_home can run xev on Harmattan12:34
Stskeepsyeah, newer compositor12:34
JaffaStskeeps: ta12:34
Stskeepsthe bug fix is there but people feel it's not a blocker for 1.112:34
Stskeepswhich is insane12:34
falethiago_home: http://wiki.meego.com/Netbooks <-- this is the best I found...12:34
JaffaSo plain Qt apps will work on Harmattan ;-)12:34
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thiago_homeJaffa: I don't have any ready to test12:35
thiago_homewell, actually I do. But it loads meegotouch anyway12:35
Jaffathiago_home: Well, here's hoping *someone* does :-/12:35
Stskeepsthiago_home: meego doesn't have plainqt, but it should still treat apps and decorate them properly12:36
* thiago_home sees /var/cache/fontconfig/12b26b760a24f8b4feb03ad48a333a72-mipsel.cache-2 on the pmap list12:36
thiago_homemipsel?12:36
Stskeepsheh12:36
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JaffaStskeeps: Feel like there should be some kind of link between 7881, 2953, 3551 and 764212:37
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StskeepsJaffa: right, let's see how the reaction is first12:38
Stskeepsi (sadly) think it's something to really raise a stink over as the bug is really old and had plenty of opportunity to be fixed12:39
Stskeepsand it's not just so i can play nethack in xterm12:39
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Kaadlajki remember trying plain Qt apps on handset day 1 image with aava, got the same white screen12:39
thiago_homecan't we just take a newer version of mcompositor?12:39
Stskeepsthiago_home: that's what we've suggested but the bug got dismissed cos it was 'just' xterm ..12:39
Stskeepsso i think we have a tunnel vision problem12:40
Stskeepshence this bug to show the exact implications12:40
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StskeepsKaadlajk: yeah, i've seen the same problem on x86 too12:42
JaffaStskeeps: Well, the comments are also "we're not targetting third party apps in 1.1" - so _someone_ has decided it's not "just" xterm12:42
StskeepsJaffa: i think it was just phrasing, i don't think they meant exactly what you think it did12:43
Stskeepscos of the definition of 'third party' apps in the bug report12:43
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thiago_homeput it this way: if plain Qt apps don't run, Qt developers won't develop12:43
thiago_homethat includes people like me12:43
KaadlajkStskeeps: didnt think much of it since the day 1 image was buggy anyway, surprised it hasnt been fixed yet12:43
lcukStskeeps, playing nethack is an important usecase!12:43
JaffaStskeeps: Indeed, I did wonder if the phrasing meant something like "we're not working with any specific third party apps for 1.1, so it's not a priority for any of those customers"12:44
StskeepsJaffa: i did at first wonder too but that was way too insane as we might as well just ditch SDK program as well if that was the attitude..12:44
thiago_homesounds like 1.1 is not meant for actual device shipment12:44
Stskeepswhich hasn't happened ;)12:44
thiago_home"no one is going to install anything on 1.1, so we don't have to worry about apps we don't ship"12:44
Stskeepswell, people are basing things on 1.0 so.12:45
Stskeeps:P12:45
thiago_homethere's a very good reason why people are doing that:12:45
thiago_home1.0 is out, 1.1 isn't12:45
TermanaN900thiago_home, i assure you, that's not how tech media will see it12:45
Stskeeps:nod:12:45
Stskeepsbut we really shouldn't deploy a platform for anyone to base anything off that meego api apps won't work on :)12:46
TermanaN900and MeeGo needs all the good PR it can get at the moment12:46
fale1.1 will have support for mp3 etc in repo? (or like 1.0 you need to add an external repo or compile)12:46
JaffaTermanaN900: I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you here ;-)12:46
lcukStskeeps, any idea how thp managed to get the gtk preview of gpodder running on it?  or was that complete mockup not on device?12:46
Stskeepsfale: no, royalty issues12:47
Stskeepslcuk: uncertain12:47
faleStskeeps: even for just putting a package into the repo (like all the distro do?)12:47
Stskeepsfale: repo server is in the US, :P12:47
faleStskeeps: uh, I see the problem ;)12:48
Stskeepsfale: nothing stops anyone rom putting up their own repo though12:48
faleStskeeps: like the ctual community repo of 1.012:48
Stskeepsfale: for instance12:48
Stskeepslcuk: it's possible to make things work a little bit if you kill mdecorator12:49
Stskeepsbut that's really a fail too12:49
* lcuk wonders how things work on the xvideo uncomposited channel12:50
Stskeepsnot sure if we've tested xv or not12:50
Stskeepsi guess we have12:50
lcukno but theres newer xv around i assume12:50
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* lcuk will get motivated to look next week 12:51
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CosmoHillif anyone is interested I'm currently writing up my Grub2 netboot guide14:03
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steinexwhere can i find harmattan firmware?14:28
stephgyou won't find harmattan firmware :)14:29
stephgMeeGo on the other hand you will find here:14:29
stephghttp://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/14:29
lcuksteinex, speak with your nokia wrangler and note this channel is publicly logged14:29
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apexi200sxi am thinking of getting a phone i can do dev work for in python, i was looking at symbian phones as these have good support for python, but the gui is very limited, the other is maemo (n900) but was wondering am i right in thinking meego is now the OS Nokia is gonna be using for new smart phones14:34
steinexhmm14:35
blinoapexi200sx: off-topic, but there's also openmoko14:35
steinexthe meego site states that native install of meego on n900 is not possible14:35
steinexis that true?14:35
steinexi have no sd-card and would rather like to flash it directly14:36
stephgnot yet, yeah14:36
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apexi200sxok14:40
apexi200sxi am thinking whether to wait for the N9 although detials of features are sketchy14:40
lcukhmm14:41
lcukif you have a need to do something now, base your decisions on what you know today14:41
stephg^this14:41
Jaffaapexi200sx: I'd guess at "everything the N900 does, but better".14:41
JaffaBut what lcuk said.14:41
stephgthere isn't a firm release date yet and even then it may slip into next year, so if you want to develop now...14:42
apexi200sxyeah thats what i m thinking, the n900 has been out a while and maybe the OS wonl;t be upgradeable, and Maemo is now being replaced with meego, hence wait for N914:42
apexi200sxand for me to buy a n900 (SIM free unlockled) is like £32014:42
stephgwell the N9 will cost more :)14:43
lcukapexi200sx, the developer story around qt utilisations is that qt is best whether you want maemo meego or symbian14:43
apexi200sxyeah i understand that14:43
stephgoh, and all N900 are unlocked btw14:43
apexi200sxlol14:43
apexi200sxyep i agree QT is the way to go14:43
RST38hOnce N9 will be out, it also won't be upgradeable, so it makes sense to wait for N1014:44
apexi200sxunfortunately there aren;t any QT bindings for Python on Symbian14:44
apexi200sxotherwise i would use that14:44
apexi200sxand C++ dev on Symbian, is painful14:44
apexi200sxin fact C++ dev is painful IMHO14:44
leinirThat's because you're not thinking in Qt yet ;)14:44
RST38hAny development is painful, in fact.14:44
RST38hBut blogging is not!14:45
leinirRST38h: Like, totally! ;)14:45
leinirapexi200sx: And, specifically, it's Qt, not QuickTime ;)14:45
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stephgnow QT, *that's* painful ;)14:46
leinirIndeed :)14:46
lcukapexi200sx, didnt you say python was heavily used in symbian?14:46
lcuk" i was looking at symbian phones as these have good support for python,"14:46
lcuksorry14:46
coffeecat"on the qt"14:47
lcukgood support but umm, err cant do qt :P14:47
apexi200sxi have devlioped mobile web app for field workers, but if there's no mobile data coverage it causes problems hence wanting to create a native app for "offline" usage, i could either go Android, Iphone Windows mobile or Maemo/Meego, the latter is the only one with full python support and i could whip an app up much quicker14:47
lcukafaik theres 2 sets of qt bindings for qt on n90014:47
apexi200sxlcuk: yeah pyqt and pyside14:47
apexi200sxpyside is the Nokia supported (and open sourced) binding14:48
lcukapexi200sx, betting that whichever platform toolkit you choose it wont be as simple as you think !14:48
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stephgthe other thing we should say as well is that you don't need an N900 to do the development (or even the testing for that matter)14:48
apexi200sxstephg:  I could go the umulator route but in the past i have found apps that should work and do in the emulator, then has problems on the device14:49
apexi200sxi used to do windows mobile dev, but now MS has sort of abandoned that platform in favour of Windows mobile 7 which now requires development in a "special" version of silverlight14:50
apexi200sxPITA14:50
stephgI'm not an app developer (I'm not any kind of developer for that matter) so I can't comment really but I believe the qemu image is pretty close to the real thing14:51
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lcukstephg, its a PITA to pickup my desktop and rotate to portrait14:52
lcukor you know, touch it14:52
lcukbut yes it works14:53
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stephgheh, well the touch yes14:53
stephgI thought ctrl-alt-R rotated?14:53
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* stephg hasn't ever tried so doesn't know what he's talking about14:54
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coffeecatthe android dudes say to always test on a real device too even though the emulator is really good14:54
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* lcuk has never run his apps in emulator14:55
lcuknobody else has either14:55
* lcuk makes a note to try again14:56
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theplicis it possible for me to run the handset ui if i have the netbook image running under xephyr?17:30
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falehi18:34
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Stskeepshi18:34
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falehttp://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.99/1.0.99.0.20101001.1/netbook/images/meego-netbook-ia32/ <-- this is the mostrecent  image I've seen... but on the bugtraker I saw the version 1.0.99.3... but I can't find it :( does someone know where is the last version?18:35
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thiago_homeget that image and then upgrade as soon as it's installed18:36
falethiago_home: that image does not start on my netbook :(18:36
thiago_homeany error messages?18:36
thiago_hometry an older image that does boot then18:37
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falethiago_home: >=1.0.3are fine, and 1.0.90.0  is fine too... no error messages, when the "MeeGo" image appears, soon appear the underscore like the tty one and it hangs18:40
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faleops, <=1.0.318:40
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Chanihey, does anyone know the sizing system for hte conference t-shirts? I can be anywhere from XS to L depending on who made the shirts :P18:42
falethiago_home: the problem with 1.0.90.0 is that I can't update anything... maybe I have to change the repo?18:43
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*** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps19:11
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falehi19:55
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faleI have installed abiword, but I can't find a way to activate the spellcheck... is there a package that I must install?19:56
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c3lhow linuxy will the meego on smartphones/mediaphones bee? as far as I understand maemo is basically a computer in your pocket, able to make calls. will meego allow me to run any debian apps, have full shell access etc?20:07
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Stskeepsc3l: well, if we say remove 'debian' and say 'posix' instead..20:08
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Stskeepsc3l: i can ssh in to my meego on n900 and run with coreutils, bash, install packages with zypper..20:08
leinirc3l: So, very linuxy indeed :) what you are probably asking for, really, is "Does it have an X server", and the answer to that is yes :)20:09
c3lsweet :)20:09
leinirThe reason i guess that's likely to be your question is that's what people tend to mean when they ask that ;)20:09
Stskeepsc3l: however, vendors may lock the devices down..20:09
Stskeepsbut underneath it'd be real linux20:09
c3lhopefully nokia keeps the n9 as open as the n900 was with meego. something linuxy for real in my pocket is what im looking for. and buying a n900 now doesnt feel like a smart move, as newer things are on their way20:11
Stskeepswell20:11
Stskeepsthere'll be open and closed mode20:11
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Stskeepsin open mode you can't use DRM material20:12
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c3lyou wont be able to force drm material on me even in my grave20:12
Stskeepsexcellent20:12
Stskeepsthen you'll be happy in open mode20:13
faleStskeeps: will the closehave the terminal?20:13
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Stskeepsno idea20:13
Stskeepsthis is just based on what we heard on maemo summit20:13
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faleStskeeps: I see, thanks ;)20:14
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c3lhow far into development is meego, when can one expect it to be released together with a smart-/media-phone?20:16
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Stskeepsdunno20:16
Stskeepspersonally i expect something on 1.2 instead20:16
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faleStskeeps: you don't belive nokia will release something (n9?) with 1.1?20:16
Stskeepsfale: harmattan isn't meego 1.0 or 1.1 based, it's maemo 620:17
faleStskeeps: maybe I lost a piece... I read that the n9 would have been released with meego...20:17
Stskeepsyes, they're doing some weird marketing tricks :)20:18
Stskeepsmeego came a little late in the picture to be a stable platform from day one20:18
faleStskeeps: oh, I see ;)20:18
Stskeepsbut i don't know what nokia will release, i only dabble on meego.com :)20:18
c3lso theres a difference between maemo 6 and meego?20:18
Stskeepsyes20:18
Stskeepshopefully maemo 6 dies pretty quickly20:18
faleStskeeps: is a gtk vs qt thing?20:18
Stskeepsno20:19
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Stskeepsmore like timelines20:19
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c3lwait what, will the n9 not run meego? will the ship it with a dying platform?20:20
Stskeepsc3l: it's complicated, try go to talk.maemo.org and search for meego-harmattan20:21
c3lhm okay. thanks!20:21
faleon wikipedia seems like harmattan is based on meego... I'll look there too :), thanks Stskeeps20:21
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Stskeepsfor all purposes, just concentrate on meego20:22
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vkvrajuHi All20:24
falehi vkvraju20:24
vkvrajuhi fale:20:24
faleStskeeps: I'm installing last version to make some trouble-shooting (and bug filled) before 1.1 :)20:25
Stskeepsfale: on n900?20:25
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faleStskeeps: sadly I only have an asus 900a ;)20:25
Stskeepsah20:26
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faleStskeeps: I' asking about nokia's meego phone because I'm looking for changing my old phone ;)20:27
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JaffaStskeeps: Can the N900 image charge the battery?21:51
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Stskeepsyes but not wall charger21:53
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berndhswhere do I submit a bug report for the ISO country codes ?22:56
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Jaffaberndhs: ISO themselves, presumably22:57
Jaffaberndhs: You think you've found a bug in ISO-3166?!22:57
berndhsyes, you cannot say "no country" in ISO22:57
Jaffa"" or NULL22:58
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berndhssure but that's not valid22:58
berndhsthey should have a zero in their numbering scheme :)22:58
Jaffaberndhs: That depends on your app22:58
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berndhsright, it is up to the app hwo to handle invalid codes22:59
sp3000just steal norway's, they won't mind22:59
sp3000or, (blame) canada22:59
berndhsantarctica won't start a war over it I assume22:59
JaffaOr VA. You might burn in hell, but you'll only piss off the 6 people who live there.23:00
Stskeepsberndhs: don't underestimate the penguins23:00
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CosmoHillI swear I just saw an iMac on a windows advert23:13
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Tuco_mariathere are mac boys everiwhere23:15
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