IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2010-10-03

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Stskeeps	then there's the platform tinkers has a place as they can hack the platform	00:00
sofar	TSCHAKeee2: ok just saw the end of the video. Overall: functionality == great. menu's look like a maze, too many web frontends involved? UI looks like a patch blanket a bit. Apart from that it looks extremely interestign and if I'd have a device to spare I'd try it out	00:00
TSCHAKeee2	sofar: that demo is three years old, and we've been systematically dealing with those issues.. the UI will be completely replaced, which is part of the reason I am in here.	00:01
GAN900	Stskeeps, most of the core people started on ITt	00:02
GAN900	as a bunch of engaged users	00:02
GAN900	since maemo.org was just a bunch of docs and a giant wikipage for applications.	00:03
TSCHAKeee2	sofar: as for me, i've budgeted the next 20 years of my research work time on this project.	00:03
Stskeeps	GAN900: right, and mailing lists?	00:03
sofar	TSCHAKeee2: well, as soon as you have something demoable on meego... :)	00:03
sofar	reminds me to wonder what the status of the community OBS is...	00:03
TSCHAKeee2	i have to design a new UI paradigm that can work well across MeeGo, Android, iOS, etc.	00:03
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GAN900	Stskeeps, those too, although nobody used them	00:04
GAN900	90% of the interesting stuff was on ITt.	00:05
Stskeeps	GAN900: so it was people tinkering with their devices, i guess?	00:05
GAN900	engaged users	00:05
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GAN900	Basically, yeah.	00:06
Stskeeps	well, what does that mean.	00:06
Stskeeps	:P	00:06
Stskeeps	right	00:06
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Stskeeps	so for the people tinkering with the platform there's still plenty of room, from a code basis, or making things work differently and contributing it back - in fact, they have even more opportunity	00:07
Stskeeps	as there's no stupid closed source in the platform	00:08
* johnx cheers from the sideline		00:08
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Stskeeps	i mean, even johnx is back	00:08
Stskeeps	:P	00:08
sofar	the whole point of meego was to make a linux distro for vendors that developers (community) would support	00:09
sofar	was/is	00:09
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sofar	but, it's a hard fight no matter what	00:09
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Stskeeps	nothing stops anyone from making Freedom MeeGo either	00:11
Stskeeps	:P	00:11
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Stskeeps	so vendors is a large term.. can be a hobbyist or a telco or a handset producer	00:11
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Stskeeps	or a subset of people, like maemo.org	00:11
Stskeeps	:P	00:11
sofar	a vendor could be an open source project making an open source product	00:11
sofar	or, OLPC	00:11
sofar	or ...	00:11
Stskeeps	:nod:	00:11
Stskeeps	or linuxmce	00:12
Stskeeps	:P	00:12
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johnx	but there is a concept of a 'vanilla' meego with no vendor modifications, right?	00:12
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Stskeeps	right, which is the published platform + ref apps	00:12
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GAN900	Stskeeps, except the conferences are on weekdays, people wanting to run MeeGo on Nvidia hardware are asked why Intel should have to support competitors, and things are generally very OEM focused.	00:13
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johnx	has anyone with an nvidia card solved whatever problem meego has with nvidia and tried to contribute back a patch?	00:13
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Stskeeps	johnx: there's no real problem, someone just needs to take responsibility and contribute. problem is that we don't take closed drivers in kernel, it's bad form :P	00:14
w00t_	you don't take open ones either afaik	00:14
Stskeeps	GAN900: weekdays is a matter of attracting as many as needed - and even with weekdays we're at ~580 signups	00:14
* w00t_ finds the bug report		00:14
sofar	someone needs to package xf86-video-nouveau and pledge allegiance to the Trunk	00:14
Stskeeps	the important part is 'take responsibility and maintain it'	00:15
johnx	Stskeeps, but it boots up with software GL, right? enough for them to yum install nvidia-driver?	00:15
Stskeeps	johnx: not the netbook ux	00:15
johnx	aaaah	00:15
johnx	now I see :)	00:15
Stskeeps	GAN900: things probably seem OEM focused as well, we're noone if we only attract hippies running meego on their freerunners	00:16
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GAN900	Stskeeps, yes, well, doesn't make things friendlier.	00:17
johnx	is there a reason netbook won't boot with software GL?	00:18
johnx	that almost seems like the more interesting shortcoming	00:18
Stskeeps	the thing is however also that people need to read what the pages say and how things get into MeeGo platform and on roadmap.. the information has been extremely lackluster and principles behind not properly explained	00:19
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Stskeeps	generally if you show up with a shovel and a couple of men to get the job done and maintain things, that gets things done	00:20
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Stskeeps	when you have something you need done in meego, then you need to either 1) convince someone it's a good idea to pour resources in or 2) pour resources into it yourself	00:21
Stskeeps	:P	00:21
Stskeeps	which is fair	00:21
Stskeeps	(in terms of features, fwiw)	00:21
Stskeeps	evening andre___	00:21
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w00t_	the problem there i think is that 1) seems easier said than done, and 2) is not as easy as you'd think for individuals to organise	00:22
johnx	w00t_, and that could be said for a lot of open source projects ...	00:22
Stskeeps	1) is always difficult since money is involved	00:22
Stskeeps	and 2) could be done if someone just gathers together	00:22
Stskeeps	i hope to show that with beagleboard peeps and motivate them in the right direction :P	00:23
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w00t_	johnx: difference being is that a lot of other projects are usually not expecting you to implement pretty much the basics of the platform (e.g. making third party apps work) for them	00:23
Stskeeps	2) we need to help assist, though	00:23
w00t_	basically it's usually expected as a baseline that the project does what it says on the tin or nobody will use it in the first place	00:24
andre___	heja Stskeeps	00:24
w00t_	andre___: o/	00:24
johnx	w00t_, there are plenty of other distributions that work exactly that way :)	00:24
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kdas	yo meego people whats up	00:29
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kdas	i have a problem with skype under meego can someone help me out? When skype loads up it looks ugly and when i try to login it takes minutes before it logins. I am using the 1.1 trunk	00:30
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kdas	also, is it possible to have fedora/suse repos for extra rpms or is that a bad idea?	00:31
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sofar	they might work, usually it'll be a miss though	00:32
* Stskeeps ponders if normal qt apps not working on handset ux is a big problem or not.		00:33
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kdas	sofar: what about my skype problem ?	00:34
sofar	kdas: that's probably worth a bugreport. make sure you got the right skype rpm	00:35
kdas	yea i donwnloaded the fedora one the dynamic and static and surprisingly they all gave the same results	00:35
sofar	get the one from skype.com instead	00:36
kdas	yea all the 3 mentioned are from skype.com	00:36
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sofar	ah ok	00:37
sofar	those should work, they work for me	00:37
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kdas	sofar: which version of meego are you using	00:38
kdas	i am using the 1.1 trunk	00:38
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sofar	kdas: I'm a paid MeeGo developer from Intel. I use everything	00:39
kdas	so just tested skype on this box(meego) vs ubuntu box and ubuntu acts normal and this one takes forever to log on so for sure it is a meego problem	00:39
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sofar	kdas: what's the cause of the problem is unclear, but it's worth filing a bugreport :)	00:40
kdas	sofar: awwww. Well if you have a 1.1 trunk installed somewhere could you confirm that you are getting normal meego activity	00:40
sofar	kdas: just tried it. starts immediately, connecting takes under 5 seconds	00:41
sofar	skype 2.1 beta	00:42
kdas	on 1.1 trunk? hmmmm	00:42
sofar	there is no "1.1 trunk", there's 1.0, 1.1 and trunk	00:43
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kdas	i had to ln -s /etc/zypp/repos.d to /etc/yum.repos.d to get to see any of the repos in the package manager (another bug i guess)	00:43
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sofar	leftover issue, in the future everything will be zypper	00:45
kdas	sofar: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.1.80.0.20101001.1/netbook/images/meego-netbook-ia32/ <-- this is where i got the image from	00:45
kdas	so that is 1.1 i am assuming	00:45
johnx	yeah, but from january :P	00:45
sofar	that's 'trunk'	00:45
sofar	not 1.1	00:46
sofar	1.1.80 means it's pre-1.2	00:46
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sofar	1.0.90 is pre-1.1	00:46
sofar	but, it should be fine to use	00:46
kdas	so where is 1.1 because http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/ does not have any 1.1, unless 1.0.99 = 1.1	00:47
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sofar	1.1 isn't released yet	00:48
sofar	therefore, 1.1 is "1.0.X" where X >= 80	00:48
kdas	johnx: yea its from january and what is weird when i tried to update/upgrade nothing was upgraded so no development?	00:48
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kdas	sofar: awww i love random number schemes :P	00:49
kdas	sofar: ok so then may I bother you to try skype on the 1.2 pre (the one i am using) ?	00:49
sofar	that's what I just tried it on	00:50
johnx	kdas, lots of development happened, but I don't think updating necessarily works in what you downloaded ...	00:50
sofar	johnx: there's plenty going on in trunk right now, especially since we just forked 1.1 off of trunk	00:50
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kdas	johnx: Yikes! my repos are pointing to http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/preview/core/repos/ia32/packages so shouldn't it upgrade?	00:51
kdas	johnx: so you think the skype issue has to do with my box only?	00:51
kdas	sofar: ^^^	00:51
GAN900	Didn't Reggie form a new MeeGo forum?	00:52
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sofar	kdas: what system do you have?	00:52
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kdas	sofar: eee 1000 (sd version)	00:52
sofar	then I have no idea	00:54
Stskeeps	GAN900: allaboutmeego.com or something	00:55
kdas	http://meego.com/user not sending me password for account. So much for bug reporting	00:55
johnx	kdas, at least try downloading a the image that sofar pointed you at. The one you grabbed is probably a lost cause	00:56
kdas	johnx: could you explain how i could get my system up to speed with the trunk because i was surprised that there was no updates after install that image.	00:56
sofar	johnx: I never pointed him to an image	00:56
sofar	kdas: that image is 1 day old	00:56
johnx	didn't you suggest a 1.0.9x?	00:56
kdas	johnx: what he said^	00:56
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sofar	johnx: no he's fine on 1.1.80...	00:57
kdas	sofar: oh.... johnx gave me the impression it was for january	00:57
sofar	kdas: there's obviously no updates to an image that was posted yesterday :)	00:57
sofar	naw file time on that page clearly says october 1st	00:57
johnx	crap. I misparsed the date >_<	00:57
johnx	apologies for being confusing	00:57
kdas	and i didn't check	00:57
sofar	dyslexic ? :)	00:57
sofar	01-Oct-2010 17:10 755M	00:57
johnx	sofar, not once I have enough coffee in me	00:57
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johnx	working on that ...	00:57
sofar	johnx: np I've had plenty :D	00:58
kdas	so this is odd is there some debugging i can do? does your skype font look awful ?	00:58
GAN900	Stskeeps, I just don't see meego.com ever being for MeeGo what maemo.org was for Maemo.	00:58
johnx	GAN900, and I still think part of that is that meego is very different from maemo	00:59
GAN900	I was picturing working towards that end towards the beginning of the year.	01:00
GAN900	But there's been an awful lot of pushback.	01:00
GAN900	johnx, indeed	01:00
sofar	kdas: that's a known issue... bug is assigned to me	01:00
johnx	meego is closer to 'OpenEmbedded' in a way, and maemo is closer to ... i dunno, some vendor specific OS	01:00
kdas	sofar: just to make sure i am doing things right btw. when i install the skype fedora package from skype.com i use zypper install skype-2.1*.rpm and then it complains about missing qt4-x11 which i saw was provided by libqt4(something) package so i ignored and said install without checking dependencies. Is that right?	01:01
sofar	http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6894	01:01
GAN900	Which is why I don't know if meego.com is capable of brining the right elements together to be a home of that sort of collaborative magic.	01:01
sofar	kdas: yes that's fine	01:01
GAN900	Which is sad to say, since it obsoleted maemo.org.	01:01
kdas	sofar: that is soo freaking weird. Why would it work for you and not for me. Is there some QT settings or skype debugging i can do?	01:02
kdas	i removed the empathy package btw if that harms anything	01:02
johnx	GAN900, with companies shipping vendorized versions of meego, I don't even know how much interest phone users will have in a 'vanilla' meego anyways	01:02
sofar	you could run an strace and see where it's stuck	01:02
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sofar	unfortunately, skype is a pig and hard to strace (and make sense of the data)	01:02
kdas	sofar: to tell you the truth i hate skype and don't use it, but setting this up for my wife.	01:03
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GAN900	johnx, turning engaged users into contributors is going to be harder now.	01:04
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johnx	GAN900, yes, but the things they can contribute to will be more worthwhile	01:05
kdas	sofar: to confirm, removing empathy should have not had any affect on my config right?	01:05
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sofar	sure	01:06
GAN900	Well, I certainly wish the project the best of luck.	01:06
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johnx	GAN900, so what do you think would be a good strategy to ease people along in terms of getting involved?	01:07
GAN900	johnx, I don't know.	01:07
kdas	sofar: weird again... pidgin->yahoo connects no problem, pidgin->gmail i am getting some connection problems	01:07
johnx	GAN900, device subforums under meego? that might get a bit insane over time though	01:08
GAN900	Less pushback from many sectors when people are trying, would help	01:08
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johnx	GAN900, is this happening on the meego forums?	01:09
johnx	(trying to minimize my distractions, lately)	01:09
GAN900	johnx, no	01:09
GAN900	I don't bother with the forums.	01:09
johnx	mailing lists?	01:09
GAN900	Just a general trend I've seen in the projec	01:09
GAN900	t	01:09
kdas	brb i am going to try to pull of some windoze magic (aka rebooting to solve problems)	01:09
GAN900	IRC, mailing lists, bugzilla, etc.	01:10
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johnx	GAN900, I think that might get better when there are more 'mid level' users to answer the questions of beginners	01:10
GAN900	Pre-entrenchment is a big problem.	01:10
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GAN900	johnx, not even a question of beginners. It's established contributors running into walls.	01:10
johnx	ah, when they want to get stuff committed?	01:11
GAN900	and higher level things.	01:11
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johnx	well, there's always going to be pushback when there are suggestions made about architectural changes	01:12
GAN900	The MeeGo spec discussion is an interesting one, since clearly the thread wasn't opened with any real interest in productive discussion.	01:12
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GAN900	johnx, well, of course.	01:12
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kdas_	back	01:12
kdas_	winmagic did not work	01:13
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GAN900	Anyway, whatever. It's not something I'll be investing much, if any, real time in.	01:14
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kdas_	well sofar thanks for help	01:14
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kdas	sorry disconnected	01:20
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kdas	is there a way to use zypper without having to kill PackageKit each time?	01:25
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sofar	we should have a bug for that :/	01:25
kdas	sofar: i just started up meego from usb (so fresh) on my other eee1000 and skype is showing the same behavior	01:26
kdas	so you much have something special installed or skype and meego hate the eee1000	01:26
kdas	i could try it on my other laptop.....	01:27
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sofar	file a bug	01:28
sofar	our QA teams have eee1000's so they can test it	01:29
kdas	i would if bugs.meego ever sends me a password for the account i signed up for :P	01:29
kdas	sofar: well i can test on another laptop, which i am about to do	01:29
kdas	how do i start the installer from within the meego environment ?	01:29
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sofar	there's a program somewhere but I forgot	01:31
kdas	heheh.. do they pay you enough at intel?	01:31
sofar	ask my manager that (please)	01:32
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kdas	hahahha!	01:32
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kdas	i forgot meego don't like nvidia. So much for that test	01:33
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kdas	sofar: you think installing 1.0.99 would be a better idea?	01:36
sofar	kdas: doubt it	01:36
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kdas	sofar: since i can't file a bug can you ask your friends over at intel about this issue and see whats up? also, when you tested out skype on this meego version that i have is it a fresh install or does it have other pkgs installed and if so which ones	01:39
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sofar	I'm sorry, you'll have to file a bug	01:40
sofar	by the time I get back to work on monday I will have forgotten this conversation completely	01:40
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smithna	sofar: you wouldn't happen to know anything about intel drivers?	01:42
CosmoHill	something to do with a lack of coffee smithna?	01:43
CosmoHill	sammit	01:43
CosmoHill	sofar:*	01:43
sofar	smithna: what about them?	01:43
sofar	CosmoHill: no, it's just weekend and I'm off (and should not be here at this time)	01:43
CosmoHill	makes sense	01:43
smithna	I've had an on-going issue, which I would ask on the intel-gfx channel, but I'm not allowed to post to it	01:43
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sofar	what about it	01:44
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smithna	The latest drivers remove the ability to change/set refresh rate && horizontal sync in the xorg.conf file. It gets those settings from EDID or uses some defaults (set somewhere)	01:45
CosmoHill	sofar: if you think you shouldn\'t be here in weekends what do you think about thiago_home?	01:45
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sofar	CosmoHill: ? what about thiago?	01:45
sofar	smithna: does xrandr still allow you to change those parameters?	01:46
smithna	Which works ok for most monitors. However, I have a monitor that doesn't provide EDID data and doesn't fit right with the defaults....	01:46
smithna	nope	01:46
sofar	ah, that certainly sounds like a bug	01:46
CosmoHill	sofar: he's always here and he doesn't sleep	01:46
smithna	Since its native resolution is 800x480	01:47
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smithna	The default values preclude setting that resolution	01:47
sofar	smithna: what kind of display is that?	01:48
sofar	smithna: worth filing a bugreport though, even a bugs.meego.com one	01:48
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smithna	oh, didn't think of putting it on meego...	01:49
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smithna	http://www.lilliput.cn/EBY701-NP.html	01:49
sofar	why not? we can assign to the intel gfx people from there just fine	01:49
sofar	and if this is a meego system....	01:49
smithna	It sure is	01:49
sofar	well then	01:49
smithna	Will do	01:50
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kdas	sofar: ok I am on another machine now running meego	02:29
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kdas	and skype has same problems so it is for sure a meebo thing not a hardware thing	02:29
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CosmoHill	cyas	02:32
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sinny	Hi! where I can get the source code of Meego-handset?	08:39
sofar	meego.gitorious.org has most of the UX components. the rest you need to get from src.rpms at repo.meego.com	08:40
sinny	sofar: thank you so much :)	08:42
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bef0rd	hi	09:05
bef0rd	I'm trying to create a rule to make xorg not use my Joystick as a mouse, but when I added something on /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d the mouse and keyboard stopped working :P any hint is appreciated :D	09:06
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mrtroll	!time	09:08
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mrtroll	wh00p	09:09
mrtroll	who's got the time ?	09:09
* mrtroll is here!		09:10
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mrtroll	sinny	09:11
mrtroll	sup	09:11
mrtroll	HEY!	09:12
mrtroll	WHAT IS MEEGO?	09:12
mrtroll	HELLO	09:13
mrtroll	ARE YOU HOME?	09:13
mrtroll	HUH	09:14
mrtroll	WHAT THE FUCK	09:14
mrtroll	EVERYBODY SLEEPING OR WHAT ?	09:14
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mrtroll	MACDRUNK, WHATS UP	09:14
mrtroll	TROLLKARLEN, WHATS UP	09:14
mrtroll	SOMEBODY TELL A NIGA WHAT MEEGO IS	09:15
* mrtroll WONDERS IF U FEWLS HAVE A WWW SITE		09:15
mrtroll	?	09:15
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mrtroll	BYE COTIGAO	09:15
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mrtroll	WELL	09:16
mrtroll	WHAT	09:16
mrtroll	IS	09:16
mrtroll	THE	09:16
mrtroll	DEAL	09:16
mrtroll	WITH	09:16
mrtroll	THIS	09:16
mrtroll	DEAD	09:16
mrtroll	ASS	09:16
mrtroll	CHANNEL	09:16
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wmarone	and the troll defeats himself!	09:32
wmarone	rofl	09:32
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TSCHAKeee2	wow,	09:34
TSCHAKeee2	wonders of stupidity never cease.	09:34
sofar	sigh	09:43
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fale	hello	09:44
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sofar	hi	09:44
fale	I've seen that last 1.0.x build is dated 29 september, while the 1st octobe one is tagged as 1.1.80... 1.1.80 shouldn't be an alpha of 1.2?	09:45
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sofar	we branched for 1.1 off trunk	09:45
sofar	trunk is now officially pre-1.2	09:45
sofar	so, 1.1.80	09:45
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sofar	so yes, trunk is a pre-alpha for 1.2	09:46
fale	I see :) so, to have something really close to 1.1 I'll have to take the september 29th, one, right?	09:46
sofar	if you want to follow 1.1 development, don't use 1.1.80+	09:47
fale	thanks, sofar :)	09:47
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fale	I dunno if you can answer this, but.... can you tell the date of the 1.1 release?	09:47
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sofar	when?	09:49
fale	sofar: yep ;)	09:49
sofar	standard answer to when questions: "before christmas, but I won't say which year"	09:49
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fale	hehe ;)	09:49
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fale	thanks, anyway	09:50
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sofar	there's rumors plenty	09:51
fale	I was going to fill bugs, but I decided to move to last trunk (of 1.1) before doing so, just to not notify bugs that are already been fixed	09:52
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sofar	please report any more trolling to me if you see any. PM me so I get a log and can work with freenode staff.	09:54
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fale	how am I supposed to format a device on meego?	11:14
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Jaffa	Morning, all	11:32
Stskeeps	morn	11:33
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Jaffa	Stskeeps: Is "yeah, we've released this shiny platform, but you can't write your own plain Qt apps for it" really going to be a good message in November?	11:33
Stskeeps	Jaffa: that part i don't disagree with	11:33
Stskeeps	Jaffa: it was about the email part	11:33
Jaffa	The platform will be a laughing stock on Engadget, Ars, OSNews, LWN, ...	11:34
Stskeeps	Jaffa: i think someone just didn't get the message of how big that bug actually is :)	11:34
Stskeeps	so i'm going to make an undeniable bug report for it	11:34
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Indeed; but as you know a platform without apps isn't easy to make successful. If people can't use it (say to do their email), they won't use it regularly, so they won't hack on it	11:35
Stskeeps	well, otoh a really buggy implementation also reflects badly	11:35
Stskeeps	so it's a hard choice	11:36
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Very true	11:36
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Stskeeps	i just spent a week getting fennec on ARM up to shape (crashed on boot for some awful reason) so we're really trying our best, but it's hard to say that 1.1 is at the stage as was hoped initially	11:38
Stskeeps	i'm kinda hoping someone will pick up 1.1 and do a n900-centric 'end-user' thing for it	11:38
Stskeeps	should be really easy	11:38
Stskeeps	especially if you take back 1.2 bits	11:39
Stskeeps	(time to bring back Mer? ;p)	11:39
johnx	gah	11:40
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Stskeeps	mm?	11:41
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johnx	Stskeeps, the thought of reviving mer and making a fork of another distro	11:44
Stskeeps	nah, not fork	11:44
Stskeeps	productize	11:44
Stskeeps	:P	11:44
johnx	aaah, so more like the relationship between debian and maemo? :P	11:44
Stskeeps	less insane	11:45
johnx	insanity creeps in around the edges	11:45
johnx	I'm sure the people who designed maemo didn't sit down and think 'gee, let's do something totally insane.'	11:45
johnx	I'm sure they just made the 'expedient' choice when problems came up	11:45
johnx	oh course, I won't dissuade anyone else from doing that	11:46
Stskeeps	but frankly.. things will look very good for 1.2, but it's a 6 month cycle away	11:46
Stskeeps	and with small leaps you can greatly improve matters	11:47
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johnx	so more like 'backports'	11:48
Stskeeps	yeah	11:49
Stskeeps	we'll be staying on .35 for 1.2 too it sounds like, so even kernel improvements will be easy	11:49
johnx	sorry. that initial overreaction is still pretty hardwired :)	11:49
Stskeeps	i think the important thing is just to maintain images	11:49
Stskeeps	:P	11:49
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* Stskeeps should make one of those images with sgx vsync..		11:51
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fale	hi	12:25
fale	is there a wiki-page where there is a list of netbook models with the status of support?	12:26
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Stskeeps	Jaffa: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7881	12:29
thiago_home	fale: I think so	12:29
Stskeeps	(and thiago might want to read that one too)	12:30
fale	hi thiago_home :). Well, I hope there is, but I've searched with google but haven't found it :(	12:30
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thiago_home	fale: try searching the wiki instead :-)	12:31
thiago_home	Stskeeps: sounds like a driver bug	12:32
Stskeeps	thiago_home: it happens on both handset UX SDK (x86) and N900	12:32
thiago_home	ok, then a compositor bug	12:32
Stskeeps	yeah	12:32
thiago_home	can you run stuff like xev?	12:32
Stskeeps	xterm shows same issue	12:33
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Stskeeps	we've tried to imply the consequences of even xterm not working in other bugs, but hopefully this one gets the right attention :/	12:33
* thiago_home can run xev on Harmattan		12:34
Stskeeps	yeah, newer compositor	12:34
Jaffa	Stskeeps: ta	12:34
Stskeeps	the bug fix is there but people feel it's not a blocker for 1.1	12:34
Stskeeps	which is insane	12:34
fale	thiago_home: http://wiki.meego.com/Netbooks <-- this is the best I found...	12:34
Jaffa	So plain Qt apps will work on Harmattan ;-)	12:34
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thiago_home	Jaffa: I don't have any ready to test	12:35
thiago_home	well, actually I do. But it loads meegotouch anyway	12:35
Jaffa	thiago_home: Well, here's hoping someone does :-/	12:35
Stskeeps	thiago_home: meego doesn't have plainqt, but it should still treat apps and decorate them properly	12:36
* thiago_home sees /var/cache/fontconfig/12b26b760a24f8b4feb03ad48a333a72-mipsel.cache-2 on the pmap list		12:36
thiago_home	mipsel?	12:36
Stskeeps	heh	12:36
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Jaffa	Stskeeps: Feel like there should be some kind of link between 7881, 2953, 3551 and 7642	12:37
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Stskeeps	Jaffa: right, let's see how the reaction is first	12:38
Stskeeps	i (sadly) think it's something to really raise a stink over as the bug is really old and had plenty of opportunity to be fixed	12:39
Stskeeps	and it's not just so i can play nethack in xterm	12:39
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Kaadlajk	i remember trying plain Qt apps on handset day 1 image with aava, got the same white screen	12:39
thiago_home	can't we just take a newer version of mcompositor?	12:39
Stskeeps	thiago_home: that's what we've suggested but the bug got dismissed cos it was 'just' xterm ..	12:39
Stskeeps	so i think we have a tunnel vision problem	12:40
Stskeeps	hence this bug to show the exact implications	12:40
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Stskeeps	Kaadlajk: yeah, i've seen the same problem on x86 too	12:42
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Well, the comments are also "we're not targetting third party apps in 1.1" - so _someone_ has decided it's not "just" xterm	12:42
Stskeeps	Jaffa: i think it was just phrasing, i don't think they meant exactly what you think it did	12:43
Stskeeps	cos of the definition of 'third party' apps in the bug report	12:43
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thiago_home	put it this way: if plain Qt apps don't run, Qt developers won't develop	12:43
thiago_home	that includes people like me	12:43
Kaadlajk	Stskeeps: didnt think much of it since the day 1 image was buggy anyway, surprised it hasnt been fixed yet	12:43
lcuk	Stskeeps, playing nethack is an important usecase!	12:43
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Indeed, I did wonder if the phrasing meant something like "we're not working with any specific third party apps for 1.1, so it's not a priority for any of those customers"	12:44
Stskeeps	Jaffa: i did at first wonder too but that was way too insane as we might as well just ditch SDK program as well if that was the attitude..	12:44
thiago_home	sounds like 1.1 is not meant for actual device shipment	12:44
Stskeeps	which hasn't happened ;)	12:44
thiago_home	"no one is going to install anything on 1.1, so we don't have to worry about apps we don't ship"	12:44
Stskeeps	well, people are basing things on 1.0 so.	12:45
Stskeeps	:P	12:45
thiago_home	there's a very good reason why people are doing that:	12:45
thiago_home	1.0 is out, 1.1 isn't	12:45
TermanaN900	thiago_home, i assure you, that's not how tech media will see it	12:45
Stskeeps	:nod:	12:45
Stskeeps	but we really shouldn't deploy a platform for anyone to base anything off that meego api apps won't work on :)	12:46
TermanaN900	and MeeGo needs all the good PR it can get at the moment	12:46
fale	1.1 will have support for mp3 etc in repo? (or like 1.0 you need to add an external repo or compile)	12:46
Jaffa	TermanaN900: I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you here ;-)	12:46
lcuk	Stskeeps, any idea how thp managed to get the gtk preview of gpodder running on it? or was that complete mockup not on device?	12:46
Stskeeps	fale: no, royalty issues	12:47
Stskeeps	lcuk: uncertain	12:47
fale	Stskeeps: even for just putting a package into the repo (like all the distro do?)	12:47
Stskeeps	fale: repo server is in the US, :P	12:47
fale	Stskeeps: uh, I see the problem ;)	12:48
Stskeeps	fale: nothing stops anyone rom putting up their own repo though	12:48
fale	Stskeeps: like the ctual community repo of 1.0	12:48
Stskeeps	fale: for instance	12:48
Stskeeps	lcuk: it's possible to make things work a little bit if you kill mdecorator	12:49
Stskeeps	but that's really a fail too	12:49
* lcuk wonders how things work on the xvideo uncomposited channel		12:50
Stskeeps	not sure if we've tested xv or not	12:50
Stskeeps	i guess we have	12:50
lcuk	no but theres newer xv around i assume	12:50
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* lcuk will get motivated to look next week		12:51
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CosmoHill	if anyone is interested I'm currently writing up my Grub2 netboot guide	14:03
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steinex	where can i find harmattan firmware?	14:28
stephg	you won't find harmattan firmware :)	14:29
stephg	MeeGo on the other hand you will find here:	14:29
stephg	http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/	14:29
lcuk	steinex, speak with your nokia wrangler and note this channel is publicly logged	14:29
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apexi200sx	i am thinking of getting a phone i can do dev work for in python, i was looking at symbian phones as these have good support for python, but the gui is very limited, the other is maemo (n900) but was wondering am i right in thinking meego is now the OS Nokia is gonna be using for new smart phones	14:34
steinex	hmm	14:35
blino	apexi200sx: off-topic, but there's also openmoko	14:35
steinex	the meego site states that native install of meego on n900 is not possible	14:35
steinex	is that true?	14:35
steinex	i have no sd-card and would rather like to flash it directly	14:36
stephg	not yet, yeah	14:36
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apexi200sx	ok	14:40
apexi200sx	i am thinking whether to wait for the N9 although detials of features are sketchy	14:40
lcuk	hmm	14:41
lcuk	if you have a need to do something now, base your decisions on what you know today	14:41
stephg	^this	14:41
Jaffa	apexi200sx: I'd guess at "everything the N900 does, but better".	14:41
Jaffa	But what lcuk said.	14:41
stephg	there isn't a firm release date yet and even then it may slip into next year, so if you want to develop now...	14:42
apexi200sx	yeah thats what i m thinking, the n900 has been out a while and maybe the OS wonl;t be upgradeable, and Maemo is now being replaced with meego, hence wait for N9	14:42
apexi200sx	and for me to buy a n900 (SIM free unlockled) is like £320	14:42
stephg	well the N9 will cost more :)	14:43
lcuk	apexi200sx, the developer story around qt utilisations is that qt is best whether you want maemo meego or symbian	14:43
apexi200sx	yeah i understand that	14:43
stephg	oh, and all N900 are unlocked btw	14:43
apexi200sx	lol	14:43
apexi200sx	yep i agree QT is the way to go	14:43
RST38h	Once N9 will be out, it also won't be upgradeable, so it makes sense to wait for N10	14:44
apexi200sx	unfortunately there aren;t any QT bindings for Python on Symbian	14:44
apexi200sx	otherwise i would use that	14:44
apexi200sx	and C++ dev on Symbian, is painful	14:44
apexi200sx	in fact C++ dev is painful IMHO	14:44
leinir	That's because you're not thinking in Qt yet ;)	14:44
RST38h	Any development is painful, in fact.	14:44
RST38h	But blogging is not!	14:45
leinir	RST38h: Like, totally! ;)	14:45
leinir	apexi200sx: And, specifically, it's Qt, not QuickTime ;)	14:45
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stephg	now QT, that's painful ;)	14:46
leinir	Indeed :)	14:46
lcuk	apexi200sx, didnt you say python was heavily used in symbian?	14:46
lcuk	" i was looking at symbian phones as these have good support for python,"	14:46
lcuk	sorry	14:46
coffeecat	"on the qt"	14:47
lcuk	good support but umm, err cant do qt :P	14:47
apexi200sx	i have devlioped mobile web app for field workers, but if there's no mobile data coverage it causes problems hence wanting to create a native app for "offline" usage, i could either go Android, Iphone Windows mobile or Maemo/Meego, the latter is the only one with full python support and i could whip an app up much quicker	14:47
lcuk	afaik theres 2 sets of qt bindings for qt on n900	14:47
apexi200sx	lcuk: yeah pyqt and pyside	14:47
apexi200sx	pyside is the Nokia supported (and open sourced) binding	14:48
lcuk	apexi200sx, betting that whichever platform toolkit you choose it wont be as simple as you think !	14:48
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stephg	the other thing we should say as well is that you don't need an N900 to do the development (or even the testing for that matter)	14:48
apexi200sx	stephg: I could go the umulator route but in the past i have found apps that should work and do in the emulator, then has problems on the device	14:49
apexi200sx	i used to do windows mobile dev, but now MS has sort of abandoned that platform in favour of Windows mobile 7 which now requires development in a "special" version of silverlight	14:50
apexi200sx	PITA	14:50
stephg	I'm not an app developer (I'm not any kind of developer for that matter) so I can't comment really but I believe the qemu image is pretty close to the real thing	14:51
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lcuk	stephg, its a PITA to pickup my desktop and rotate to portrait	14:52
lcuk	or you know, touch it	14:52
lcuk	but yes it works	14:53
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stephg	heh, well the touch yes	14:53
stephg	I thought ctrl-alt-R rotated?	14:53
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* stephg hasn't ever tried so doesn't know what he's talking about		14:54
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coffeecat	the android dudes say to always test on a real device too even though the emulator is really good	14:54
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* lcuk has never run his apps in emulator		14:55
lcuk	nobody else has either	14:55
* lcuk makes a note to try again		14:56
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theplic	is it possible for me to run the handset ui if i have the netbook image running under xephyr?	17:30
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fale	hi	18:34
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Stskeeps	hi	18:34
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fale	http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.99/1.0.99.0.20101001.1/netbook/images/meego-netbook-ia32/ <-- this is the mostrecent image I've seen... but on the bugtraker I saw the version 1.0.99.3... but I can't find it :( does someone know where is the last version?	18:35
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thiago_home	get that image and then upgrade as soon as it's installed	18:36
fale	thiago_home: that image does not start on my netbook :(	18:36
thiago_home	any error messages?	18:36
thiago_home	try an older image that does boot then	18:37
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fale	thiago_home: >=1.0.3are fine, and 1.0.90.0 is fine too... no error messages, when the "MeeGo" image appears, soon appear the underscore like the tty one and it hangs	18:40
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fale	ops, <=1.0.3	18:40
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Chani	hey, does anyone know the sizing system for hte conference t-shirts? I can be anywhere from XS to L depending on who made the shirts :P	18:42
fale	thiago_home: the problem with 1.0.90.0 is that I can't update anything... maybe I have to change the repo?	18:43
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fale	hi	19:55
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fale	I have installed abiword, but I can't find a way to activate the spellcheck... is there a package that I must install?	19:56
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c3l	how linuxy will the meego on smartphones/mediaphones bee? as far as I understand maemo is basically a computer in your pocket, able to make calls. will meego allow me to run any debian apps, have full shell access etc?	20:07
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Stskeeps	c3l: well, if we say remove 'debian' and say 'posix' instead..	20:08
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Stskeeps	c3l: i can ssh in to my meego on n900 and run with coreutils, bash, install packages with zypper..	20:08
leinir	c3l: So, very linuxy indeed :) what you are probably asking for, really, is "Does it have an X server", and the answer to that is yes :)	20:09
c3l	sweet :)	20:09
leinir	The reason i guess that's likely to be your question is that's what people tend to mean when they ask that ;)	20:09
Stskeeps	c3l: however, vendors may lock the devices down..	20:09
Stskeeps	but underneath it'd be real linux	20:09
c3l	hopefully nokia keeps the n9 as open as the n900 was with meego. something linuxy for real in my pocket is what im looking for. and buying a n900 now doesnt feel like a smart move, as newer things are on their way	20:11
Stskeeps	well	20:11
Stskeeps	there'll be open and closed mode	20:11
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Stskeeps	in open mode you can't use DRM material	20:12
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c3l	you wont be able to force drm material on me even in my grave	20:12
Stskeeps	excellent	20:12
Stskeeps	then you'll be happy in open mode	20:13
fale	Stskeeps: will the closehave the terminal?	20:13
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Stskeeps	no idea	20:13
Stskeeps	this is just based on what we heard on maemo summit	20:13
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fale	Stskeeps: I see, thanks ;)	20:14
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c3l	how far into development is meego, when can one expect it to be released together with a smart-/media-phone?	20:16
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Stskeeps	dunno	20:16
Stskeeps	personally i expect something on 1.2 instead	20:16
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fale	Stskeeps: you don't belive nokia will release something (n9?) with 1.1?	20:16
Stskeeps	fale: harmattan isn't meego 1.0 or 1.1 based, it's maemo 6	20:17
fale	Stskeeps: maybe I lost a piece... I read that the n9 would have been released with meego...	20:17
Stskeeps	yes, they're doing some weird marketing tricks :)	20:18
Stskeeps	meego came a little late in the picture to be a stable platform from day one	20:18
fale	Stskeeps: oh, I see ;)	20:18
Stskeeps	but i don't know what nokia will release, i only dabble on meego.com :)	20:18
c3l	so theres a difference between maemo 6 and meego?	20:18
Stskeeps	yes	20:18
Stskeeps	hopefully maemo 6 dies pretty quickly	20:18
fale	Stskeeps: is a gtk vs qt thing?	20:18
Stskeeps	no	20:19
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Stskeeps	more like timelines	20:19
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c3l	wait what, will the n9 not run meego? will the ship it with a dying platform?	20:20
Stskeeps	c3l: it's complicated, try go to talk.maemo.org and search for meego-harmattan	20:21
c3l	hm okay. thanks!	20:21
fale	on wikipedia seems like harmattan is based on meego... I'll look there too :), thanks Stskeeps	20:21
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Stskeeps	for all purposes, just concentrate on meego	20:22
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vkvraju	Hi All	20:24
fale	hi vkvraju	20:24
vkvraju	hi fale:	20:24
fale	Stskeeps: I'm installing last version to make some trouble-shooting (and bug filled) before 1.1 :)	20:25
Stskeeps	fale: on n900?	20:25
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fale	Stskeeps: sadly I only have an asus 900a ;)	20:25
Stskeeps	ah	20:26
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fale	Stskeeps: I' asking about nokia's meego phone because I'm looking for changing my old phone ;)	20:27
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Jaffa	Stskeeps: Can the N900 image charge the battery?	21:51
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Stskeeps	yes but not wall charger	21:53
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berndhs	where do I submit a bug report for the ISO country codes ?	22:56
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Jaffa	berndhs: ISO themselves, presumably	22:57
Jaffa	berndhs: You think you've found a bug in ISO-3166?!	22:57
berndhs	yes, you cannot say "no country" in ISO	22:57
Jaffa	"" or NULL	22:58
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berndhs	sure but that's not valid	22:58
berndhs	they should have a zero in their numbering scheme :)	22:58
Jaffa	berndhs: That depends on your app	22:58
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berndhs	right, it is up to the app hwo to handle invalid codes	22:59
sp3000	just steal norway's, they won't mind	22:59
sp3000	or, (blame) canada	22:59
berndhs	antarctica won't start a war over it I assume	22:59
Jaffa	Or VA. You might burn in hell, but you'll only piss off the 6 people who live there.	23:00
Stskeeps	berndhs: don't underestimate the penguins	23:00
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CosmoHill	I swear I just saw an iMac on a windows advert	23:13
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Tuco_maria	there are mac boys everiwhere	23:15
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