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| auke | eikke: there is no meego tablet edition available | 00:03 |
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| eikke | auke: oh? i saw some good-looking demos on youtuube | 00:09 |
| lcuk | I saw alien videos on youtube too | 00:09 |
| lcuk | that doesn't mean they walk amongst us | 00:09 |
| auke | actually | 00:09 |
| auke | aliens were released | 00:09 |
| auke | several nations regularly release aliens all over the world | 00:10 |
| eikke | right | 00:11 |
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| auke | eikke: a video on youtube is all you got... there is no tablet release nor is there anything to download. | 00:12 |
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| eikke | auke: i see | 00:15 |
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| Mat_Matan | Good night | 00:26 |
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| julian_lp | how many meego ready phones are there in the place where you live? | 00:32 |
| julian_lp | kinda quiz | 00:32 |
| julian_lp | here in Argentina only N900 is able to run it, but I think not oficcially supported... | 00:33 |
| berndhs | julian_lp: millions, i live on earth | 00:33 |
| julian_lp | nah seriously pleaseeeeeeee | 00:34 |
| berndhs | your question isn't serious | 00:34 |
| julian_lp | awww sorry for that | 00:34 |
| julian_lp | I'll try to ellaborate more what I want to know | 00:35 |
| berndhs | i dont think there are any devices you can buy with meego on them | 00:35 |
| julian_lp | Is meego in a beta stage yet? | 00:35 |
| berndhs | but there are many things that will run meego if you want to | 00:35 |
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| julian_lp | ok, but Is it known when there will be meego devices ? | 00:37 |
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| julian_lp | bern you seem to know fairly well the meego wave, so I need to ask you a couple of questions | 00:38 |
| wmarone | There are no announced MeeGo phones at this time | 00:38 |
| berndhs | probably, but not by me :) there must be manufacturers preparing stuff quietly | 00:38 |
| wmarone | the first will likely be a Nokia handset | 00:38 |
| julian_lp | Is the C++ used by Qt the "standard" C++, or is a subset of libraries? | 00:39 |
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| ieatlint | intel has been touting a tablet with meego on it that is released next week | 00:39 |
| berndhs | it's the whole C++ | 00:39 |
| wmarone | it's standard C++ (ie. none of the standard C++ type libraries or classes are gone) | 00:39 |
| julian_lp | I mean, I came from a Delphi (object pascal) background now working mainly with PHP | 00:40 |
| wmarone | oh delphi | 00:40 |
| wmarone | tragically abused language | 00:40 |
| * wmarone started on it | 00:40 | |
| julian_lp | abused? why? | 00:40 |
| wmarone | it's changed hands a bunch | 00:40 |
| julian_lp | ahh yes | 00:41 |
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| wmarone | I'd like to use it again, but the prices they want for it are ridiculous when I can grab Qt Creator | 00:41 |
| julian_lp | I liked it a lot before knowing the C style of PHP | 00:41 |
| julian_lp | dont forget you've FreePascal to play with | 00:41 |
| wmarone | that too | 00:41 |
| wmarone | but I'm too far out from Pascal to worry about going back to it at this point | 00:42 |
| julian_lp | besides it's cross compiler | 00:42 |
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| wmarone | all my low level stuff these days is C, with the high level stuff in Ruby :) | 00:42 |
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| julian_lp | yeah I've the same feeling ... but dont you feel C++ pointers really confusing? | 00:42 |
| wmarone | not really | 00:42 |
| julian_lp | or C pointers by the way | 00:42 |
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| ieatlint | pointers are fun :P | 00:43 |
| julian_lp | maybe it's me, I once asked some question in the C newsgroup and someone told me C++ is fairly Ambiguous | 00:43 |
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| ieatlint | that's an ambiguous statement | 00:44 |
| julian_lp | hehe | 00:44 |
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| holaback | where can I find meego job for entry level ? | 00:44 |
| julian_lp | I mean things can be written quite different meaning the same do you agree? | 00:44 |
| wmarone | certainly | 00:44 |
| julian_lp | Is it ok asking some C questions here? | 00:45 |
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| julian_lp | well no one seem to be offended so I'll give a try... | 00:46 |
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| julian_lp | let's say I have this line(pseudocode): function GetIntValue (*int aVal) | 00:47 |
| julian_lp | what would be the meaning of the asterisk??? | 00:47 |
| ieatlint | invalid unary operator | 00:47 |
| ieatlint | int *aVal | 00:47 |
| julian_lp | is the argument a pointer to an int? | 00:47 |
| wmarone | lol | 00:47 |
| berndhs | its in the wrong place | 00:47 |
| julian_lp | ah ok ok | 00:47 |
| ieatlint | it means aVal is a pointer of type int | 00:47 |
| julian_lp | ok | 00:48 |
| julian_lp | now, I want to return the VALUE of that int | 00:48 |
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| julian_lp | what should I do? | 00:48 |
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| ieatlint | return *aVal; | 00:48 |
| julian_lp | return aValue* | 00:48 |
| julian_lp | ieatlint,... arent you returning the pointer? | 00:49 |
| ieatlint | "return aVal;" returns the pointer | 00:49 |
| ieatlint | "return *aVal;" says dereference the pointer and return its value | 00:49 |
| berndhs | aVal is the pointer, "*aVal" is what it points to | 00:49 |
| slavik | basic C? | 00:49 |
| ieatlint | think of it this was, you have "int aVal;" -- it's an int, it stores a number | 00:50 |
| julian_lp | great, so aVal were the pointer cause that's how it was declared right? | 00:50 |
| ieatlint | "&aVal" is the memory address of aVal | 00:50 |
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| ieatlint | for every &, you need a * | 00:50 |
| ieatlint | & says give me memory address, * says dereference memory address | 00:50 |
| ieatlint | your function would be called like this: int aVal; GetIntValue( &aVal ); | 00:51 |
| ieatlint | so in your function, you need *aVal to get the value | 00:51 |
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| julian_lp | I guess I have to read carefully to get the idea, now you put the "&" sign into the issue and I got confused, | 00:52 |
| ieatlint | your welcome | 00:53 |
| ieatlint | :P | 00:53 |
| wmarone | the wikipedia article on pointers is pretty good :) | 00:53 |
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| julian_lp | hopefully you'll answer again ;) GetValue(int *aVal) aVal is a Pointer to an Integer? if it is a pointer, why the tipe is "int" rather than "pointer" | 00:54 |
| berndhs | you can have pointers to other stuff | 00:55 |
| julian_lp | wait till I complete | 00:55 |
| ieatlint | well, to be pedantic "pointer" isn't a type, the generic pointer type is "void" | 00:55 |
| ieatlint | but the reason is so when you dereference it, you know what it is | 00:55 |
| julian_lp | int i = 10; GetValue (&i) | 00:55 |
| ifdef42 | when you put int *aVal, the type of aVal is "int *", meaning pointer to int | 00:55 |
| slavik | ieatlint: generic pointer is void* technically, no? | 00:55 |
| ieatlint | so like "char *blah" is a 1 byte character, whereas "int *blah" is a 4 byte integer | 00:55 |
| ieatlint | slavik: bah, yes, to be more pedantic ;) | 00:56 |
| slavik | int *aVal, aVal is type "int *", type of *aVal is "int". you are welcome. :) | 00:56 |
| julian_lp | does the above compile? | 00:56 |
| ieatlint | :P | 00:56 |
| ieatlint | julian_lp: yes | 00:56 |
| slavik | julian_lp: whether it compiles or not is for the compiler to tell you, but it is correct. :) | 00:56 |
| wmarone | julian_lp: I highly recommend grabbing GCC a good C book, and playing around | 00:57 |
| julian_lp | well now I'm starting to understand thanks to the meebo folks ;) | 00:57 |
| slavik | wmarone: you mean the K&R book :) | 00:57 |
| slavik | julian_lp: buy the K&R book, it's cheap. | 00:57 |
| wmarone | slavik: yes :) | 00:58 |
| slavik | julian_lp: let me guess, your first programming language is Python. | 00:58 |
| * wmarone has an old copy of the first edition, with its weird parameter lists | 00:58 | |
| julian_lp | nah, it was Clipper did you remember it? | 00:58 |
| julian_lp | aww, I forgot I had been playing with COBOL !! | 00:59 |
| slavik | wmarone: is it even avail for purchase anywhere? interesting for historical purposes. :) | 00:59 |
| julian_lp | I'm 33 | 00:59 |
| slavik | oh, I was off by 30 years | 00:59 |
| slavik | :( | 00:59 |
| slavik | what is Clipper? | 00:59 |
| ifdef42 | wow, clipper. haven't heard that in a while. | 00:59 |
| ifdef42 | like 20 years. | 00:59 |
| julian_lp | Some sort of power builder / clarion, and the like | 01:00 |
| wmarone | slavik: dunno, I rescued the copy I have from the trash bin | 01:00 |
| julian_lp | a database kind of programing lang I guess | 01:00 |
| slavik | powerbuilder ... heard it, seen, it's crap | 01:00 |
| slavik | wmarone: nice | 01:00 |
| slavik | clarion = emc storage device ... :-\ | 01:00 |
| julian_lp | do you know here in my country, PW works are really well paid? | 01:00 |
| julian_lp | and you know why? | 01:00 |
| slavik | PW is complete crap though, isn't it? | 01:00 |
| slavik | because nobody knows it? | 01:01 |
| julian_lp | cause banks and financial businnes dont want to rewrite their codebase | 01:01 |
| mikhas | julian_lp, think of it this way: "&" goes left, "*" goes right | 01:01 |
| slavik | what else is new? | 01:01 |
| julian_lp | someone has to maintain it | 01:01 |
| slavik | that is why the State of California had to spend millions to fix a Cobol app to change a number, because the app only supported increasing the number, not decreasing it. | 01:02 |
| julian_lp | even Cobol programmers are rather well paid too | 01:02 |
| slavik | and brought Cobol developers out of retirement | 01:02 |
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| mikhas | s/retirement/graves | 01:02 |
| slavik | mikhas: yes, thank you for that correction | 01:03 |
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| julian_lp | mikas please WAIT, why "*" goes right??? I had put it left side?? | 01:03 |
| julian_lp | is it the same=? | 01:03 |
| mikhas | julian_lp, no - I meant in a metaphorical sense | 01:03 |
| julian_lp | That's why I said "ambiguous"... | 01:03 |
| mikhas | left and right, as in: opposite directions | 01:03 |
| julian_lp | but what does the right asterisk mean? | 01:04 |
| trem | nite all, sweet dreams | 01:04 |
| mikhas | it means deref | 01:04 |
| julian_lp | awww | 01:04 |
| wmarone | there's no ambiguity here, one way is correct and the other is a syntax error | 01:04 |
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| slavik | wmarone: int *a vs int* a? | 01:04 |
| wmarone | no, that's irrelevant | 01:04 |
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| mikhas | have a "pointer" to sth, and look at what it is that the pointer points to :-D | 01:05 |
| wmarone | since c doesn't care about spacing | 01:05 |
| julian_lp | ohhhhhh wmarone... | 01:05 |
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| julian_lp | that's very confusing, dont like the design at all (no one cares about it anyway hehe) | 01:05 |
| mikhas | &: have sth, and get a "pointer" to sth | 01:05 |
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| mikhas | in that sense, & and * is as if you were looking into opposite directions, hence "left" and "right" | 01:06 |
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| mikeleib | http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/C_Programming | 01:06 |
| slavik | wmarone: I thought that is what was meant by right/left :) | 01:06 |
| mikeleib | #meego is not the place to learn how to write C code | 01:07 |
| mikeleib | #meego is not the place to learn how to write C++ code | 01:07 |
| mikhas | mikeleib, even if you had a channel, say #c++, it wouldnt be the right place to learn c++ ;-) | 01:07 |
| * jausmus thinks #meego is the place to learn about D code !!! | 01:07 | |
| julian_lp | mikeleib: It's the wrong place but I'm learning here a little bit | 01:07 |
| julian_lp | so it's the right place | 01:07 |
| slavik | ##c :) | 01:07 |
| slavik | and ##c++ | 01:07 |
| auke | do not confuse with #c# | 01:08 |
| auke | :) | 01:08 |
| lcuk | don't those channels kick you out if you say you are wanting to use Qt C++ variant | 01:08 |
| * lcuk ducks | 01:08 | |
| slavik | C++x0 > * :-\ | 01:08 |
| ifdef42 | i created #pointers :) | 01:08 |
| auke | good one | 01:08 |
| mikeleib | you can learn a lot of things in a lot of places, but that doesn't make them the ideal places to learn | 01:08 |
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| julian_lp | yeah that's why I asked about the Qt comintement with standards | 01:08 |
| * lcuk actually likes to see the channel buzzing | 01:08 | |
| mikhas | that assumes that there were ideal places | 01:09 |
| lcuk | it shows active community | 01:09 |
| lcuk | just don't ignore people who chirp in with real meego specific topics :P | 01:09 |
| * csdb thinks buzzing != community | 01:10 | |
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| julian_lp | Talking strictly about meego, does anybody know a good Microchip Pic C compiler for Linux? | 01:10 |
| julian_lp | ;) | 01:10 |
| julian_lp | Free one I mean | 01:11 |
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| lcuk | julian_lp, what devices is that for? | 01:12 |
| julian_lp | they're risc 8 bit microcontroller | 01:13 |
| lcuk | do they have the seemingly required GLes components? | 01:13 |
| lcuk | (for meego usage :P) | 01:13 |
| julian_lp | I guess no | 01:13 |
| julian_lp | they're just cheap stuff to do basics circuits like temporizers, industrial automation, stepper controllers and the like | 01:14 |
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| lcuk | julian_lp, like the arduino? | 01:15 |
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| julian_lp | yes absolutely | 01:15 |
| julian_lp | arduino is build up with Atmel chips though | 01:16 |
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| julian_lp | what I want to build right now is a kinda Touch Screen through an infrared grid, | 01:17 |
| lcuk | cool, I have seen people use LED arrays with touch feedback | 01:17 |
| julian_lp | the interface in the pc will be my first step with Qt (that's why I'm in the meego channel) | 01:17 |
| lcuk | I think lbt has some sort of pic board he played with a while back | 01:17 |
| lcuk | can't remember the model though | 01:17 |
| mikhas | julian_lp, is your infrared grid multitouch capable? | 01:17 |
| mikhas | SCNR | 01:17 |
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| julian_lp | well my impression is that it will be multitouch capable, limited multitouch though | 01:18 |
| mikhas | yeah ;-) | 01:18 |
| mikhas | one finger per grid line | 01:18 |
| julian_lp | I only need a grid of buttons anyway | 01:18 |
| mikhas | "dont cross fingers!" | 01:18 |
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| lcuk | :D | 01:18 |
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| julian_lp | I've been writing down some pseudocode and I guess it will have 3 features | 01:19 |
| julian_lp | 1 click | 01:19 |
| julian_lp | 2 long click | 01:19 |
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| julian_lp | 3 scroll horizontal andvertical | 01:19 |
| julian_lp | not diagonal yet | 01:19 |
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| julian_lp | Did you see the Atmel multiTouch circuit? | 01:20 |
| julian_lp | really amazing kind of product (samsung galaxy uses it btw) | 01:20 |
| ieatlint | apparently meego will be supporting javascript programs in the future | 01:24 |
| julian_lp | javascript programs??? | 01:25 |
| auke | yup, javascript | 01:25 |
| auke | web runtime toolkit | 01:25 |
| julian_lp | interpreted applications or they will be compiled? | 01:26 |
| ieatlint | and a json based language to make ui elements, heh | 01:26 |
| auke | julian_lp: intel has put a lot of effort into javascript interpreter code... | 01:27 |
| mikhas | ieatlint, "What is ClutterScript" | 01:27 |
| auke | exactly | 01:27 |
| auke | part of the netbook ui already is JS | 01:27 |
| ieatlint | reminded me of efl more actually | 01:27 |
| julian_lp | so maybe applications could be ran from the web? | 01:27 |
| julian_lp | outside the browser I mean | 01:28 |
| julian_lp | javascript as an independent app | 01:28 |
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| ieatlint | specifically edje from efl | 01:29 |
| julian_lp | note that Javascript is copyrighted by Oracle, so maybe meego should adopt the ECMA script instead | 01:29 |
| ieatlint | uh, no | 01:30 |
| julian_lp | ecma script = javascript though | 01:30 |
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| julian_lp | meego is the framework of choice for the car industry, good news for Intel | 01:34 |
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| Myrtti | right, it's silly o'clock again | 02:18 |
| mikeleib | I thought that was only on the hour | 02:20 |
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| Myrtti | well it's stupid o'clock now... | 03:02 |
| * Myrtti goes to bed | 03:03 | |
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| Daniel | hello | 03:06 |
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| Daniel | i just wanted to know if its possible to just burn a dvd with the image in order to install meego before downloading it.... is it? | 03:07 |
| Daniel | i mean, instead of using a thumb drive.. | 03:08 |
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| Daniel | KTHX BAI! | 03:11 |
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| Kubuntiac | Diaspora's code is out for those interested! | 05:39 |
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| amjad | good morning | 08:01 |
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| sejo | what can meego do on n900? I just get an empty screen | 08:29 |
| sejo | och no wait get the menu | 08:30 |
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| Trollkarlen | Where can i find the git for the gst-plugins-bad-free package ? | 08:33 |
| Trollkarlen | I have cloned this gitorious.org/maemo-multimedia/gst-plugins-bad but is does not seam right | 08:34 |
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| Mat_Matan | morning | 08:50 |
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| MmadA | Hi. I'm trying to run meego core tests but I don't have testdefinition-syntax.xsd. It probably should be in test-definition.tar.gz but I have no idea where to look for it... | 09:47 |
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| Stskeeps | morn david o/ | 10:07 |
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| lbt | good morning Carsten :) | 10:22 |
| X-Fade | Morning all. | 10:22 |
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| kyb3R | morning | 10:28 |
| kyb3R | diaspora* morning that is :) | 10:28 |
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| lbt | good morning X-Fade :) | 10:28 |
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| * lbt feels his approach isn't going to scale... | 10:29 | |
| X-Fade | Write a greeter tcl script :) | 10:29 |
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| lbt | tcl.... oooh, that's been a while | 10:30 |
| kyb3R | :) | 10:30 |
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| amjad | lbt: i have community obs related questions | 10:42 |
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| amjad | when i build the latest qt from the image released on 14 using community obs, this is the error i get | 10:43 |
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| amjad | http://pastebin.com/jStCXGqK | 10:44 |
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| Matan | morning | 10:54 |
| amjad | morning | 10:54 |
| lbt | amjad: hmmm ... I guess that's ssse3 instructions? | 10:55 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: ? /tmp/ccV7Bpxs.s:4028: Error: selected processor does not support `strex r0,r1,[r2]' | 10:55 |
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| Stskeeps | fixed in acceptance | 10:56 |
| Stskeeps | and no | 10:56 |
| Stskeeps | it's ARMv6 | 10:56 |
| lbt | OK ... I don't read asdm | 10:57 |
| lbt | asm | 10:57 |
| Stskeeps | me neither | 10:57 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:57 |
| lbt | so amjad what are you building against? | 10:58 |
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| lbt | is this your problem now or does the build target need an upgrade? | 10:58 |
| amjad | i am building for armv7 and i assume in spec file this is the fix to bypass the error | 11:00 |
| amjad | ifarch armv7l | 11:00 |
| amjad | %define arch_arg armv6 | 11:00 |
| amjad | %endif | 11:00 |
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| vlj | at last | 11:09 |
| vlj | adobe provides a 64 bits plugin for linux that will become a final release | 11:09 |
| lbt | amjad: I suggest you ask in #meego-arm | 11:09 |
| Stskeeps | amjad: wait for next weekly import, as latest weekly is broken in that regard | 11:10 |
| Termana | vlj, I thought you were going to say, "At last, I have made it through the forest and made it all the way into #meego!" | 11:10 |
| amjad | ah ok | 11:10 |
| vlj | :p | 11:10 |
| vlj | sorry to disappoint you | 11:10 |
| vlj | by the way is the hardware acceleration feature of chrome 7 working with current branch ? | 11:11 |
| vlj | the dev team spoke about that | 11:12 |
| vlj | I'm testing I9 on my gma 500 powered netbook (you know, the one that cannot run any linux properly :p ) | 11:13 |
| vlj | and scrolling webpage is amazingly smooth on the atom | 11:13 |
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| vlj | would be a nice thing if it can come to meego quickly | 11:13 |
| theplic | what ie9? xD | 11:14 |
| vlj | they totally revamped IE engine | 11:14 |
| theplic | yea i read on /. | 11:14 |
| vlj | the browser became good | 11:15 |
| vlj | however seven is not that great on a netbook | 11:15 |
| theplic | no xp though | 11:15 |
| theplic | seven is ok. i use it. | 11:15 |
| theplic | especially after i got the anti-virus uninstalled. | 11:15 |
| vlj | well "is ok" but it's not as good as a lightweight linux | 11:15 |
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| vlj | it takes age to boot, it quickly run into low memory | 11:16 |
| theplic | idk. mine boots as fast as meego | 11:16 |
| vlj | I have a 32 Go ssd on it | 11:16 |
| vlj | and a 20 Go partition for windows | 11:16 |
| vlj | 18 Go are consummed by windows, services, thing like that | 11:17 |
| vlj | I have not a lot of space =( | 11:17 |
| theplic | i have lots of space :D | 11:17 |
| vlj | linux does not take more than 5 Go | 11:17 |
| theplic | 100 gb~ for each 7 and meego | 11:17 |
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| vlj | ssd ? | 11:17 |
| vlj | mine is T91MT | 11:18 |
| theplic | uhm no :/ | 11:18 |
| theplic | ssd are not cheap | 11:18 |
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| vlj | I should have waited for the T101MT...that comes with a linux supported gpu :p | 11:18 |
| theplic | and a keyboard? | 11:19 |
| vlj | yup | 11:19 |
| lpotter | i have been thinking about getting a T101mt | 11:19 |
| vlj | what a shame that manufacturers had to replace gma 500 by worse gpu, just because of crappy driver support | 11:19 |
| theplic | how much is a t101mt | 11:20 |
| vlj | here my T91MT was 499€ so I think t101 has the same price tag | 11:20 |
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| lpotter | about $700 AUD | 11:20 |
| theplic | whoop | 11:20 |
| theplic | thats a lot | 11:20 |
| vlj | however this is not a great netbook on the "touch" aera | 11:21 |
| vlj | resistive display | 11:21 |
| theplic | i have a simple netbook | 11:21 |
| theplic | aspire one | 11:21 |
| vlj | bad brightness | 11:21 |
| theplic | though it has dd3 | 11:21 |
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| vlj | this is the only netbook to provide a touch interface though | 11:22 |
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| * vlj hopes that Nokia convert pc rumor are not just rumor | 11:22 | |
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| lpotter | nokia convert pc? | 11:25 |
| vlj | tablet pc sorry | 11:25 |
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| gabor | re | 11:28 |
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| lpotter | I havent heard any rumors | 11:41 |
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| fcrozat | vlj: hi.. about your bug with unwanted VT1 switch when pressing "windows" or "menu" or alt-tab. Could you try killing Xorg "sudo killall Xorg" and see if it fixes the issue ? | 11:52 |
| fcrozat | it fixes it for me | 11:52 |
| fcrozat | and it looks like a bug I encounter on Mandriva when working on speedboot / plymouth | 11:52 |
| vlj | fcrozat: in fact it does not appear everytime I boot meego | 11:52 |
| fcrozat | well, next time you have it, try to kill X server | 11:53 |
| vlj | ok | 11:53 |
| vlj | :) | 11:53 |
| fcrozat | I need to find the bug I filled at mandriva and plymouth about it | 11:53 |
| fcrozat | since meego is using a plymouth "derivative" | 11:53 |
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| Scelt | anyone using meego on N900 having big problems? is it usable as a primary device? | 12:13 |
| Stskeeps | no | 12:14 |
| Scelt | which no? | 12:14 |
| Stskeeps | it's not usable as a primary device yet. | 12:14 |
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| Scelt | okay | 12:15 |
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| Scelt | hopes that it will be with meego 1.1? | 12:16 |
| Stskeeps | i would put better hopes on meego 1.2 | 12:17 |
| Scelt | estimates on it's schedule? | 12:17 |
| Stskeeps | keep in mind meego in this context is meego.com, not nokia's :) meego 1.2 is 6 months after 1.1 | 12:18 |
| petteri | 2011-04-27 | 12:18 |
| Stskeeps | Scelt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO0VoHtVdY8 - things have improved since this video though | 12:18 |
| Scelt | Stskeeps: yeah. I read about this being a volunteer project and nothing to do with official nokia products? | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | right | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | we do have skilled people paid to work on the n900 port though | 12:19 |
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| Scelt | cool | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | i wouldn't say 'volunter' | 12:19 |
| Scelt | if paid, then not :) | 12:19 |
| Scelt | Stskeeps: is this meego release always needed to be flashed when updating or does it work OTA? | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | we don't test for updateability | 12:21 |
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| Scelt | okay, so just flashing then | 12:22 |
| Stskeeps | well, writing to microsd | 12:22 |
| Scelt | oh, okay | 12:22 |
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| aholler | anyone has some hints about what stuff to build on top of gentoo to get a (minimal) meego? | 12:25 |
| aholler | I'm just looking for a starting point, e.g. which wm and what meego-project I need to see something from meego on the screen | 12:29 |
| aholler | (lost in all those meego-projects ;) ) | 12:29 |
| Stskeeps | well, it wouldn't be meego | 12:29 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:29 |
| Stskeeps | and meego is a wide term | 12:29 |
| Stskeeps | what's wrong with real meego? :) | 12:29 |
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| lbt | aholler: start with the kernel and work up ... :) | 12:30 |
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| aholler | kernel, qt, xorg and such is all working | 12:30 |
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| lbt | aholler: what you need is an package/architecture mapping | 12:30 |
| lbt | so you can see which packages are needed in the various components | 12:31 |
| lbt | rather that an alphabetic list of packages | 12:31 |
| lbt | it's not written yet | 12:31 |
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| aholler | maybe I just will have a look at a started meego and do a ps. Seems to be the fastest way. | 12:34 |
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| aholler | btw, has anyone meego for an n700? ;) | 12:40 |
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| kyb3R | i'd like to know has anyone tried Meego on n770 or is it even possible | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | don't bother | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | honestly. | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | too low memory and we don't have armv5 builds atm | 12:42 |
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| kyb3R | ok | 12:42 |
| aholler | oh, I meant a n770 too | 12:43 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 12:46 |
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| slaine | aholler: which meego, netbook or handheld ? | 12:53 |
| aholler | slaine: I don't care atm ;) | 12:54 |
| aholler | but something for a touch would be preferable, so I assume handheld. I will checkout a ready-to-use meego for the beagleboard | 12:56 |
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| * CosmoHill has a doggy called Bobby for the day | 12:57 | |
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| Khertan | aholler, kyb3R : n770 is a nokia headset :) you mean nokia 770 i think :) | 13:18 |
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| aholler | Khertan: yes, the one which use ugly gnome ;) | 13:20 |
| aholler | (ugly in c-code, casts everywhere) | 13:21 |
| aholler | means I'm full on nokias side with the switch to qt ;) | 13:23 |
| Khertan | hum .... doesn't made too much differences for me as i code in python :) | 13:24 |
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| Khertan | qt has some advantages over gtk and some disadvantages | 13:25 |
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| Trollkarlen | The kickstart exclude-pkgs and the cost parameters to the repos how are they supposed to work ? | 13:31 |
| Trollkarlen | If i have 2 respos with the same package version in both and have that package excluded from one its random which one it takes anyway. | 13:32 |
| Trollkarlen | And the cost parameter dont seam to have any effekt at all or is the cost only when you have mirrors of the same repo ? | 13:33 |
| Myrtti | argh, my head hurts when people use their own userpages in the wiki for meego stuff | 13:34 |
| Myrtti | or even worse, talk pages | 13:34 |
| Myrtti | THIS IS WRONG AND MY HEAD WILL IMPLODE | 13:35 |
| poutsi | don't get me started, maemo projects whose only "homepage" is a t.m.o. thread.... | 13:35 |
| poutsi | also same for version control | 13:35 |
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| Myrtti | my ex-Wikipedia admin pedantic and nitpicking uptight little head wants to smack people | 13:36 |
| Myrtti | *SPANK* | 13:37 |
| Myrtti | srsly http://wiki.meego.com/Special:RecentChanges | 13:37 |
| Myrtti | also "Preview Changes" button has been invented | 13:37 |
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| lbt | Myrtti: so it turns out that he's in our chinese team... I think they would rather prepare something and *then* go live with it. | 13:50 |
| lbt | I'm all for "educating" people | 13:50 |
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| Myrtti | lbt: Sandbox and/or Preview Changes | 13:51 |
| lbt | not Sandbox... but yes I've mentioned it to him | 13:52 |
| Myrtti | I suspect that in time our wiki will get the same kind of RecentChanges-patrollers as Wikipedia has, and that just makes patrolling for vandalism and spam so much harder | 13:53 |
| lbt | he's VictorLiu in #meego-dev.... go say hello :) | 13:53 |
| Myrtti | but yeah, thanks. | 13:53 |
| aholler | uh, maybe I just idle there, haven't though to join -dev, thanks ;) | 13:54 |
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| Myrtti | :-> | 13:55 |
| lbt | uh... | 13:55 |
| Termana | lbt, what's the problem? | 13:56 |
| Termana | He just idle there | 13:56 |
| Termana | :P | 13:56 |
| lbt | no problem... just... OK ... | 13:56 |
| lbt | BTW I'm idle in 24 other chans... shall I tell you them ;) | 13:57 |
| lbt | hell, I'm idle in this one ! | 13:57 |
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| Termana | lbt, that's right you make no contributions - get out of here! :P //sarcasm | 13:58 |
| * lbt hangs his head | 13:58 | |
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| adeus | the wiki behavios quite strange if you don't visit meego.com first | 13:59 |
| adeus | you get "log in" and "log out" buttons | 13:59 |
| vlj | I aggree | 13:59 |
| vlj | agree | 13:59 |
| Stskeeps | wow, the compliance discussion just took a weird turn | 14:00 |
| Stskeeps | "potential of apps indirectly causing road deaths" | 14:00 |
| theplic | cool | 14:00 |
| Myrtti | o___O | 14:00 |
| Myrtti | kick ass! | 14:00 |
| theplic | 1. email clients | 14:01 |
| Stskeeps | i'd say | 14:02 |
| Stskeeps | 1. twitter app | 14:02 |
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| theplic | oh yea | 14:05 |
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| lokesh | Vivek >> u there ? | 14:05 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Whoa. | 14:06 |
| theplic | lokesh? | 14:06 |
| theplic | where are you from? | 14:07 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, thats why I asked my question last night in the tsg | 14:07 |
| lcuk | the difference between in car passenger entertainment and driver aids is immense | 14:07 |
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| lokesh | theplic : I am from NOKIA | 14:08 |
| theplic | oh | 14:08 |
| lcuk | <CosmoHill> Stskeeps: HUD Tetris :o | 14:08 |
| lcuk | <CosmoHill> sweaving left and right over the motorway to get the blocks in the right place | 14:08 |
| theplic | cool | 14:08 |
| lokesh | why do u ask ? | 14:08 |
| theplic | uhm i thought apart from being in nokia you were from india | 14:08 |
| lokesh | yeh i am :) | 14:09 |
| theplic | where in india? | 14:09 |
| lokesh | I am from Hyderabad | 14:09 |
| theplic | oh | 14:10 |
| Myrtti | o___O | 14:10 |
| theplic | cool | 14:10 |
| theplic | lokesh: im from delhi | 14:11 |
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| lokesh | cool.. whats your name ? I am sure its not theplic :) | 14:11 |
| theplic | lol no its not | 14:11 |
| theplic | i am raunaq | 14:11 |
| lokesh | cool. Nice meeting you Raunak :) | 14:12 |
| theplic | :) | 14:12 |
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| Myrtti | so, a duck walks into a bar | 14:12 |
| lcuk | lbt, Stskeeps, Myrtti and any other long time maemo users, it would be good to get some input on this epic thread http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=62347 | 14:13 |
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| Myrtti | lbt: my response would be so epic it's not publishable | 14:15 |
| Myrtti | grrr | 14:15 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: ^ | 14:15 |
| theplic | amjad: are you there? | 14:15 |
| lcuk | Myrtti, thats a shame, you had your 770 for ages, it would be good to know what got you into it in the first place | 14:16 |
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| Myrtti | lcuk: ok, since you insist | 14:16 |
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| Myrtti | "the ability to IRC in the loo without taking my laptop with. Also, the valentine theme. http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/2061502377/" | 14:18 |
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| Myrtti | best reason. ever. | 14:19 |
| SwedeMike | dang, that's a lot of wasted screen estate. | 14:19 |
| Myrtti | that's one opinion | 14:19 |
| lcuk | SwedeMike, life. styles change but Myrtti's pink stays the same :P | 14:20 |
| lbt | lcuk: pmo? what's that? | 14:20 |
| Myrtti | Virtual Keyboard ♥ | 14:21 |
| Myrtti | that baby had all I needed. Well almost | 14:21 |
| lcuk | lbt, who mentioned pmo? | 14:21 |
| lcuk | its projects.maemo.org in my glossary anyway | 14:22 |
| * lbt has a natural aversion to typing rmo... wait. gmo..... no..... 6mo | 14:22 | |
| lbt | my fingers know what it does to my brain.... it's a defense mechanism | 14:23 |
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| Myrtti | keyboard shortcuts in the terminal ♥ | 14:25 |
| * lbt just ROFLed.... Denise is doing accounts and just found how in Finland 5.00 - 3.27 = 2.05 | 14:25 | |
| Myrtti | ah, those were the days. | 14:25 |
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| lbt | ( make that 5.30 - 3.27 = 2.05 ) | 14:26 |
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| Myrtti | lbt: unless paid by card...? | 14:27 |
| lbt | :) | 14:28 |
| Myrtti | lbt: tell her she can claim it back at the veg section. 1) pick a potato 2) weight it and price it 3) if it costs >0.03 GOTO 1 4) go to the tills with nothing but the potato in your basket 5) offer cash 6) ????? 7) PROFIT! | 14:32 |
| Myrtti | s/>/=>/ | 14:33 |
| infobot | Myrtti meant: lbt: tell her she can claim it back at the veg section. 1) pick a potato 2) weight it and price it 3) if it costs =>0.03 GOTO 1 4) go to the tills with nothing but the potato in your basket 5) offer cash 6) ????? 7) PROFIT! | 14:33 |
| * lbt plans chip butties!!!! | 14:33 | |
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| lbt | now she has a receipt with 3 items and 6 different VAT lines ... she loves it really | 14:34 |
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| lbt | woohoo .... I think mark has been nailed :) | 14:37 |
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| Stskeeps | what i miss from the compliance threads is actual writeups of wording | 14:38 |
| Stskeeps | right now we're bikeshedding quite a fair bit | 14:39 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:39 |
| achipa | hey, after that pig company thing I'm still in shock :P | 14:40 |
| Stskeeps | i really wonder what's wrong with taking an approach of 'any meego compliant app must install properly with it's repositories and package on all meego reference devices without any funny licensing messups' | 14:40 |
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| Stskeeps | :P | 14:40 |
| achipa | simple, it sounds to some as if they are not in control | 14:41 |
| Stskeeps | also, come on: we have advanced packaging systems, garage clients (OCS), even SAT solvers doing our dirty work, and we return to a compliance view that's basically "if rpm -i package.rpm" won't work on a meego device, you're not meego compliant" | 14:41 |
| achipa | (when in fact, they are) | 14:41 |
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| achipa | well, a lot of embedded development mindset showing over the linux experience... | 14:42 |
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| amjad | yes thelpic now i am here | 14:44 |
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| CosmoHill | I've been quoted :) | 14:44 |
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| achipa | CosmoHill: as long as it's not MISquoted... :) | 14:45 |
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| CosmoHill | ooo | 14:55 |
| CosmoHill | D-Bus to become part of the kernel | 14:55 |
| lbt | ccooke: oh... I didn't look for you here... you're too quiet | 14:55 |
| ccooke | *grin* | 14:55 |
| ccooke | Not had much to say recently | 14:55 |
| ccooke | Although I did actually say stuff in #maemo last week... | 14:55 |
| ccooke | (yay, getting full use from an n900 :-) | 14:56 |
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| lbt | <grin> | 14:57 |
| lbt | fighting the compliance strangeness on meego-dev atm | 14:58 |
| Aard | reminds me... | 14:58 |
| CosmoHill | "Benchmarks published by Alban with his kdbus work shows this implementation running nearly twice as fast when using KVM on i386 and up to three times faster with ARM on the Nokia N900 hand-held. In other benchmarks the gains were less but still quite significant in terms of performance increases. " | 14:58 |
| X-Fade | Hmm really should add more fuel to the fire there. | 14:58 |
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| dneary | lbt, I'm thinking... | 15:00 |
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| Stskeeps | uhm | 15:00 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: that's what I thought .... | 15:00 |
| dneary | lbt, It does seem like not allowing dependencies in compliant apps would be a step backwards, but what would compliance bring us in a community application? | 15:00 |
| lbt | credibility | 15:01 |
| dneary | Some communioty apps (those which only need MeeGo core libs as dependencies) could be compliant | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | did anyone actually -read- the spec? | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:01 |
| dneary | Stskeeps, Yeah | 15:01 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: isn't this slashdot style? | 15:01 |
| dneary | Stskeeps, I noticed there were some gaps "we'll fill this in later" | 15:01 |
| lbt | dneary: this is a strategic step that places OSS-style apps on an equal MeeGo footing with non-OSS | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | no, but seriously, i can't find the places all you guys are talking about | 15:02 |
| lbt | it will be useful in working on app stores in the future | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | i see allowance for third party complaint libraries | 15:02 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: I think by now this is about the expressed intent to define compliance in this way | 15:03 |
| lbt | if we could see the current draft... like if it was on a wiki... we'd see it there | 15:03 |
| lbt | but it's secret | 15:03 |
| lbt | :D | 15:03 |
| lbt | (ie being worked on on a PC, probably in .doc format) | 15:04 |
| Stskeeps | ok, so, where did this intent start? | 15:04 |
| Stskeeps | cos i don't see it in the draft published | 15:04 |
| Stskeeps | in fact, it takes a sane attitude | 15:04 |
| dneary | lbt, While it is certainly useful to say "most Open Source apps will use dependencies rather than static linking or rolling everything up, therefore this strategy hurts Open Source apps most", I don't think it's accurate to characterise this as "open source vs commercial" | 15:04 |
| lbt | dneary: no, but it's shorted | 15:05 |
| lbt | r | 15:05 |
| dneary | By the way, the Maemo community meeting's just starting on #maemo-meeting - if you have any goals for Maemo that you'd like to see happen in the next month or two, now's the time | 15:05 |
| lbt | ta | 15:05 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: can you point out to me in http://wiki.meego.com/images/MeeGo-Compliance-Spec-1.0.80.8.pdf what exactly the problems are? | 15:06 |
| lbt | I'll look | 15:06 |
| lbt | but.... | 15:06 |
| Stskeeps | let's pretend i'm ignoring the entire thread | 15:07 |
| lbt | I can point you to Mark, Arjan etc's comments on the ml which reflect what will happen in the next draft | 15:07 |
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| Stskeeps | and let's ignore the dotted package name issue, which is just a wtf.. | 15:09 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:09 |
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| Stskeeps | i'm just really wondering where the discussion started, cos it sure wasn't the spec | 15:13 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: page 4 line 70 | 15:14 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: yes, but page 7 line 157, and page 9 227 | 15:15 |
| lbt | 157 does not override 70 | 15:16 |
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| lbt | merely says "how" | 15:16 |
| Stskeeps | 70/71 is very vague | 15:16 |
| Stskeeps | and as such, third party is described | 15:16 |
| Stskeeps | if it depends on it | 15:17 |
| lbt | 231 is interesting | 15:17 |
| lbt | but very 'C' | 15:17 |
| Stskeeps | shared libraries/services | 15:18 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:18 |
| Stskeeps | my point is: where in the bloody hell does it say we can't dep on 3rd party | 15:19 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:19 |
| lbt | conceptually 231/232 allows and requires dependency on "other" packages | 15:19 |
| * lbt wishes he needed less sleep | 15:19 | |
| lbt | but....ffs.... why is Mark (I assume he's the author) not referencing this | 15:20 |
| * CosmoHill darts lbt | 15:20 | |
| Stskeeps | lbt: was mwichmann originally uploading | 15:21 |
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| lbt | just checked... yes | 15:21 |
| lbt | no title page on doc ... mutter | 15:21 |
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| dneary | Stskeeps, It definitely was the spec | 15:22 |
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| Stskeeps | i'm going to have to read the thread all over. | 15:24 |
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| lbt | 3rd party apps must only depend on the core components or on things that are included with the app. | 15:25 |
| lbt | not other (4th party?) things. | 15:25 |
| lbt | Arjan | 15:25 |
| lbt | 7/9/10 00:29 | 15:25 |
| lbt | and yes... looks like that is the start of it | 15:25 |
| Aard | lbt: stop ignoring queries :p | 15:25 |
| lbt | I'm not... | 15:26 |
| lbt | where? | 15:26 |
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| Aard | there -> | 15:26 |
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| Stskeeps | ok, so, let's step back a bit: arjan isn't the head of this process, but the spec obviously says something that is not in line with what he says | 15:27 |
| lbt | yes | 15:27 |
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| * Stskeeps sits down and writes a calm email | 15:29 | |
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| kfx | Are they using the word "app" to describe "packages" | 15:31 |
| CosmoHill | Stskeeps: once you've finished the email go and have a cup of tea and read it when you get back | 15:31 |
| * CosmoHill goes to take the dog for a walk | 15:32 | |
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| Stskeeps | http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-September/005809.html | 16:06 |
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| lardman | GAN900: you about? | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | moo lardman | 16:13 |
| lardman | hey Stskeeps :) | 16:13 |
| lardman | was just looking at whether I can make it over for the Meego summit, and saw that GAN will be appearing in person, so thought I should double check ;) | 16:13 |
| lardman | unfortunately I'm going to India the next week and I also have a meeting on the 17th, so will have to see if I can juggle work and make it over for a day or two | 16:15 |
| odin_ | argh.. why is meego-dev list used to actually send patches ? | 16:16 |
| Termana | Intended purpose? | 16:16 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: because it's for the development of meego? | 16:16 |
| Stskeeps | it's not a bikeshedding list, despite what it feels like | 16:16 |
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| Termana | I have 1408 unread messages under my MeeGo label in Gmail :P | 16:17 |
| Termana | But I'm signed up for all the mailing lists. :P Can't read all the junk that goes through :P | 16:18 |
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| odin_ | surely it should be use the OBS and create a friggin' SR for all to manage and see | 16:19 |
| Termana | OBS? | 16:19 |
| Termana | You mean like, the one no one can see? | 16:20 |
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| Termana | Well, except for those that have been given an account | 16:20 |
| odin_ | it is for the discussion of the development of meego | 16:20 |
| Termana | :P | 16:20 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: it's also the perfect place to send patches cos developers are on there ;) | 16:20 |
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| odin_ | ah that is the point you see... the close OBS system that is priviate that the elite have access too... hehe I jest.... I'm sure it will be sorted in the next 12 months | 16:20 |
| odin_ | the openSUSE model is perfect but not what meego is using right now | 16:21 |
| Stskeeps | the opensuse model works when there's a shitload of resources | 16:21 |
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| odin_ | does opensuse have more money then ? | 16:22 |
| Stskeeps | no, they have a lot of sponsors | 16:22 |
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| odin_ | that implies they have access to a lot more money | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | and the main principle is that build.meego.com are for people who is on some kind of meego team | 16:23 |
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| odin_ | there is no team, only one community | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | uhm, there is still a project | 16:23 |
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| Stskeeps | and workgroups, etc | 16:23 |
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| Stskeeps | the risk is that people bring down the project ability to build in time by overloading | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | instead of letting the resource being used for what it's supposed to be used for | 16:24 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, that's silly. People should still be able to VIEW it | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | Termana: i don't disagree with that | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | but currently, the sw isn't built like that (people are working on it) | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | obs 2.1 was first step | 16:25 |
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| Stskeeps | http://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/08/15/obs-2-1-features-and-status/ and make a openness bug report | 16:26 |
| odin_ | I don't see what ACLs have to do with access | 16:26 |
| odin_ | anything which needs to be restricted should be on another OBS system (like "product obs") | 16:26 |
| lbt | OBS will become open to readonly with 2.1 of the OBS | 16:27 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: build.meego.com -is- the product obs | 16:27 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:27 |
| Stskeeps | as in, the meego.com product | 16:27 |
| Stskeeps | and readonly is a ACL too | 16:28 |
| lbt | odin_: the community OBS will map to the suse OBS style | 16:28 |
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| lbt | but we will partition factory builds on the core OBS | 16:28 |
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| Termana | Stskeeps, I think there already is a bug report - filed by quim - on openness of the OBS - AFAIK | 16:30 |
| Stskeeps | yes, but not this particular issue | 16:31 |
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| odin_ | no build.meego.com must not be the product OBS as per wiki release engineering diagram http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Engineering/Process | 16:32 |
| odin_ | there certainly should not be any technical reason to hold up openness due to some parties wanting to dual-purpose the OBS in this way | 16:33 |
| Stskeeps | we've had this discussion over and over again.. | 16:33 |
| Stskeeps | even read-only is an ACL. | 16:33 |
| odin_ | no the product OBS is for devices by vendors, not for meego core, as meego core is not a product | 16:33 |
| lbt | odin_: it is by our glossary | 16:34 |
| Stskeeps | yes, it is - if builds are delayed/lagged, it affects a lot of people and anyone using it | 16:34 |
| odin_ | I filed bug BMC#6677 over read-only access to build.meego.com only a few days ago | 16:34 |
| odin_ | of course delayed and lagged things affect people | 16:36 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: is meego obs 2.0 or 2.1? | 16:36 |
| odin_ | but inhibiting access citing that reason is just not acceptable | 16:36 |
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| Stskeeps | sigh | 16:36 |
| lbt | 2.0 still | 16:36 |
| Stskeeps | you're not listening, are you | 16:36 |
| odin_ | no you are not | 16:36 |
| Stskeeps | ACLs are first available in 2.1 and read-only is an ACL | 16:36 |
| odin_ | excuse after excuse | 16:36 |
| slaine | cough | 16:37 |
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| X-Fade | odin_: openSUSE obs also needs an account. | 16:37 |
| Stskeeps | it's a bit rough claiming i'm making an excuse when i was one of the first to push this issue. | 16:37 |
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| odin_ | X-Fade, anonymous access it not the issue, no access to the public is the issue, where is the public website to register for an account ? please don't compare to openSUSE in this way | 16:37 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: the issue is historical, opensuse never had the 'read only' thing as you could always get an account | 16:38 |
| lbt | odin_: this is 100% your fault | 16:38 |
| Stskeeps | and build, too | 16:38 |
| lbt | odin_: you have not provided an upstream patch to the OBS code for the feature | 16:38 |
| lbt | OBS does not permit such an account | 16:38 |
| odin_ | which thing is my fault ? | 16:38 |
| odin_ | I don't see it as needed since the model I want is openSUSE with PUBLIC friggin' access | 16:39 |
| Stskeeps | now we're on a situation where we can't just give out accounts and patches and work is being done to provide read-only access | 16:39 |
| odin_ | not Nokia+Intel ideas on the matters | 16:39 |
| lbt | security policy is such that we are not prepared to offer build-capable accounts on meego.com core OBS | 16:39 |
| Stskeeps | ah, yes | 16:39 |
| X-Fade | odin_: Community OBS will be what openSUSE obs is. Public access. | 16:39 |
| Stskeeps | chroot builds | 16:39 |
| odin_ | and that is not what is being asked for by me | 16:40 |
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| lbt | no... you want a non-build account | 16:40 |
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| lbt | sure | 16:41 |
| lbt | but OBS doesn't do them | 16:41 |
| lbt | so submit a patch to OBS to allow them | 16:41 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: please be patient and let people do their work in order to provide the things you're asking for. read-only accounts doesn't exist until OBS 2.1 exists. it's not a conspiracy or a concious corporate choice, it's done from security pov (chroot builds), that we need to keep a service running (hence not upgraded yet) and that the work is being done by OBS | 16:41 |
| lbt | and then we can talk | 16:41 |
| lbt | (read only accounts still won't exist AFAIK - only anonymous) | 16:41 |
| odin_ | just deny the user from committing anything | 16:41 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: that's what doesn't exist, ffs | 16:41 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: the code is very recent and was made -because- we want to make things more open | 16:42 |
| lbt | *nod* | 16:42 |
| lbt | IIRC Nokia sponsored it | 16:43 |
| lbt | I could be wrong | 16:43 |
| odin_ | so if I come up with patch that will inhibit building and commits (and any creation/modify operations) it _WILL_ be installed on the existing build.meego.com to allow access | 16:45 |
| odin_ | but it reads to me that you already have some existing plan which you will implement anyway | 16:45 |
| Stskeeps | read the capabilities of http://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/08/15/obs-2-1-features-and-status/ | 16:46 |
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| odin_ | yes I think I did a few weeks ago | 16:46 |
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| odin_ | reading it doesn't actually help or solve any problem tho | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | and we're not on 2.1 yet as we're about to put out a product | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | / realse | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | release | 16:47 |
| odin_ | so is there a roadmap / deadline for getting further delay/excuses out of the way? | 16:47 |
| lbt | odin_: and I'm pushing 2.1 alpha onto the community OBS to help get it tested and ready for release | 16:47 |
| odin_ | i.e. I'm looking for commitment on the date of when, so I can come back | 16:48 |
| lbt | by christmas for sure | 16:48 |
| lbt | see you then... bring presents | 16:48 |
| odin_ | please get it announced | 16:48 |
| odin_ | don't care when the date it, just that you stick to it and the matter becomes priority 1 | 16:49 |
| lbt | sure mate... the whole project is here just for you ... whatever you say... :) | 16:49 |
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| lbt | given everything that has been said about the efforts being put in please be a *lot* more courteous | 16:50 |
| odin_ | not really but it getting fucking tiring waiting for supposedly straightforward matters to be resolved | 16:50 |
| Stskeeps | except it isn't straightforward and you'd know that if you had looked at the OBS code | 16:50 |
| Stskeeps | or at the organisational needs to get this done in a proper way | 16:51 |
| odin_ | what I see if the entity "meego" making it more complex than it needs to be | 16:52 |
| odin_ | s/if/is/ | 16:52 |
| infobot | odin_ meant: what I see is the entity "meego" making it more complex than it needs to be | 16:52 |
| odin_ | on many levels | 16:52 |
| Stskeeps | no, you just don't seem to understand the actual complexity of getting some things on the road and done properly | 16:53 |
| odin_ | done property is a matter of opinion | 16:53 |
| lbt | odin_: it's been explained enough. I hope it eventually does what you need. Thanks | 16:54 |
| * CosmoHill returns | 16:54 | |
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| GAN900 | lardman, assuming I'm sponsored. | 17:01 |
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| lardman | GAN900: ah ok | 17:02 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps, maybe someone should try to explain simply meego organization as for me too it s look like really too much complex too (i didn't judget that it should be or not complex, i just didn't understand the organization) | 17:03 |
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| Khertan | there is sponsoring ? | 17:03 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: in this particular instance (re OBS access) it's typical IT procedures :P | 17:04 |
| Khertan | yep ... so not simple for non it guys :) | 17:05 |
| Khertan | s/non/no | 17:05 |
| lbt | The MeeGo Build Service system is where MeeGo Core is built and is open to anyone who earns commit rights to a MeeGo package. | 17:05 |
| Khertan | that is clear :) | 17:06 |
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| Stskeeps | Khertan: any particular parts you'd like to know about? i can probably claim to have some kind of understanding of how http://meego.com/sites/all/files/imagecache/image_post_width/users/u24/MeeGo_setup_8jun2010.png works in practice now :P | 17:07 |
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| Khertan | no specially ... this just that currently for me the meego organisation look like a black box ... | 17:12 |
| Khertan | but maybe because i didn't take the time to follow enough meego mailing list | 17:13 |
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| Khertan | or maybe explaination is diffucult to get :) | 17:13 |
| Khertan | but your scheme resume things well :) | 17:13 |
| Khertan | thx | 17:13 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: distribution development is most visible on meego-commits, release engineering on wiki and on repo.meego.com + mailing lists | 17:13 |
| Stskeeps | QA has a very visible wiki page with a lot of testing work as well | 17:14 |
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| odin_ | commit rights have not really been earnt... the major sponsors put their people in at the top, who then elected/promoted the people they saw fit, etc.... maybe someday in the future it would be correct to day commit rights were earnt, once there is a health public vote procedure with a decent spread of non-nokia/intel affiliated people in the decision council, please don't think anything was earnt at this time | 17:14 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: you don't think people had to earn based on merit within companies too? and what were they supposed to do, set up an election instead of just getting started on the project? | 17:15 |
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| odin_ | I am not knocking the affair just calling to account what I see as inappropriate use of the term | 17:15 |
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| odin_ | hey I'm not able to scrutineer the internal process (not that I'm complaining on that) but for you to try and presume what I must think or not-think of how the process inside a corporation may have occured is silly | 17:17 |
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| odin_ | careful you are not believing your own marketing/propaganda mantra too much in these early stages, the goal is that you will need to earn your commit rights, but at this time the committees are still debating the finer points in the committees about important matters | 17:21 |
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| sengsud | hi | 17:22 |
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| ScottishDuck | Are you folks planning to merge the kdbus code into meego 1.1? Or is it more likely for 1.2 | 17:29 |
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| slaine | That's just a proof of concept at the moment ScottishDuck | 17:29 |
| ScottishDuck | yeah I read the article | 17:30 |
| ScottishDuck | but it's interesting work | 17:30 |
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| slaine | indeed, but a bit early for a 1.1 inclusion I'd have thought | 17:30 |
| slaine | I think 1.1 in feature freeze anyway | 17:30 |
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| ScottishDuck | yeah I think so | 17:31 |
| sivang | is there a list of packages we have for meego? | 17:34 |
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| Stskeeps | open repo.meego.com | 17:34 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:34 |
| sivang | right, let's see waht python stuff we have there. | 17:34 |
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| ScottishDuck | hmm, wonder why nokia don't have a 1.0.90.2 build | 17:35 |
| sivang | nice, so we have twisted | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | of which? | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | n900? this week was hosed | 17:36 |
| ScottishDuck | ah | 17:37 |
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| Khertan | sivang, but pyqt4 still missing :) | 17:38 |
| sivang | Khertan: oh :/ | 17:38 |
| sivang | Khertan: and pyside seems missing as well, but I heard packages are coming soon | 17:39 |
| Khertan | sivang, yep missing too ... but in progress | 17:39 |
| Khertan | but to be honest, i didn't think pyside is ready for making end user apps | 17:40 |
| Khertan | :) | 17:40 |
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| Khertan | of course if noone use it, bugs will not be found and so not fixed | 17:40 |
| sivang | Khertan: Well, I made sure we have twisted since I am going to make a user app using it PySide , a simple GUI directory syncer | 17:40 |
| sivang | Khertan: I am going to try and change this and we gave some traction with some PyQt users getting interested as apparent on the mailing list. | 17:41 |
| sivang | Khertan: s/gave/gave/ | 17:41 |
| sivang | johd: //have/ :) | 17:41 |
| sivang | err | 17:41 |
| sivang | Khertan: ^ | 17:41 |
| sivang | Khertan: there's help needed with docs, are you interested? :) | 17:41 |
| lokesh | who is the master at using AAVA ? | 17:41 |
| lokesh | I need help | 17:42 |
| sivang | ah, I woulld love to get an AAVA giant phone :) | 17:42 |
| Khertan | event-driven networking engine ... didn't you twisted before :) | 17:42 |
| Khertan | seems interesting | 17:42 |
| Khertan | sivang, sorry i already didn't have enought time to finish my project :) | 17:42 |
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| sivang | Khertan: hehe, I did - http://sivang.blogspot.com/2009/08/twisted-based-directory-and-file.html | 17:43 |
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| sivang | Khertan: I'm going to build up a GUI on top of that providing progress and control | 17:43 |
| sivang | Khertan: as an example for a real world app using PySide | 17:43 |
| slavik | is there any kind of "emulator" or environment for meego? | 17:44 |
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| Stskeeps | sure | 17:45 |
| Khertan | sivang, once pyside bugs i report will be fixed in #maemo repository (or meego) i ll propable port Khweeteur to pyside just to play after with qtmobility instead of playing with dbus for requesting network connection | 17:45 |
| Stskeeps | search wiki for qemu | 17:45 |
| Khertan | sivang, http://gitorious.org/khweeteur | 17:46 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: mairas was working on pyside for meego, i think | 17:46 |
| sivang | still is :) | 17:46 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: but ti requires VT no? :) | 17:47 |
| sivang | (emulation) | 17:47 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: sure, but hopefully the n900 qemu should come along soon | 17:47 |
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| Khertan | Stskeeps, yes i know ... help me many times with problems i got with pyside bugs or wrong use :) | 17:47 |
| Stskeeps | ah :) | 17:48 |
| * Stskeeps ponders if he has cash enough for a good pizza | 17:48 | |
| toggles_w | want me to mail you one from .it? | 17:48 |
| Stskeeps | no, loathe italian pizza | 17:48 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:48 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: and it would not require VT? could emulate like the Symbian emulator with the qt sdk ? runs on my ppor netbook without problem | 17:48 |
| toggles_w | lol | 17:48 |
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| Stskeeps | sivang: it's arM :) | 17:49 |
| sivang | hehe | 17:49 |
| sivang | yes, I know, we talked about this already | 17:49 |
| Khertan | while trying to found a good python editor ... trying eclipse ... 45min to install, 20min to try to install pydev and theim claim it s not possible due to a missing depandancy in eclipse repository | 17:49 |
| Khertan | lol | 17:49 |
| Khertan | next :) | 17:49 |
| Khertan | i believe i ll port KhtEditor for desktop pc :) | 17:50 |
| sivang | Khertan: use vim :) | 17:50 |
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| sivang | best python editor ever, or emacs | 17:51 |
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| Khertan | didn't like emacs ... too slow | 17:51 |
| sivang | yes, but vim is cool | 17:51 |
| Khertan | hum ... does there is a pylint integration ? | 17:51 |
| sivang | Khertan: I think so | 17:52 |
| sivang | http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=891 | 17:52 |
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| sivang | Khertan: ^ ? | 17:52 |
| Khertan | hum maybe i should try to configure it so :) | 17:53 |
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| Khertan | but for n900 khteditor is the best :) | 17:53 |
| Khertan | </adverts> | 17:53 |
| Khertan | :) | 17:53 |
| sivang | Khertan: heh, it is on the repo right? I'll try to install | 17:53 |
| Khertan | on maemo repo yes ... | 17:54 |
| Khertan | in extras-devel | 17:54 |
| Khertan | it s not the last version ... | 17:55 |
| Khertan | but there isn't too many modifications since i push it | 17:56 |
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| sivang | Khertan: ok | 17:56 |
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| Khertan | sivang, http://gitorious.org/khteditor | 17:57 |
| Khertan | :) | 17:57 |
| sivang | </ads> | 17:58 |
| sivang | :) | 17:58 |
| Khertan | :) | 17:58 |
| sivang | i disabled extras | 17:59 |
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| sivang | need to enable and install | 17:59 |
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| sivang | I wish there could be a feature "this app found in repo X" would like to enable it to get the app? | 18:00 |
| sivang | :) | 18:00 |
| sivang | maybe a suggestion for meego | 18:00 |
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| lbt | ned? mrshaver? | 18:04 |
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| GordonS | heya... got a question... are there 64-bit package of the MeeGo development stuff? For instance I am looking at the image creation tools at http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/tools/repos/ubuntu/10.04 and I see only an i386 dir. | 18:09 |
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| GordonS | or for that matter, where are the Debian rules stuff in order to build from source? | 18:10 |
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| GordonS | I see the ".orig.tar.gz" files but not the dsc or diff files. | 18:11 |
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| GordonS | but there is an amd64 in the Debian directory... maybe that will work :) | 18:17 |
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| Khertan | sivang, eric4 is quite good :) | 18:19 |
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| sivang | Khertan: oh true! | 18:23 |
| sivang | Khertan: nice editor | 18:23 |
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| lbt | X-Fade: did you disable atrium? | 18:25 |
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| GordonS | any thoughts on the 64-bit *ubuntu packages? | 18:32 |
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| GordonS | or the source packages? | 18:39 |
| slavik | Stskeeps: is there any doc I can read on setting up qemu for meego? | 18:40 |
| GordonS | well, there *is* one... but I haven't made it work :-P | 18:40 |
| slavik | GordonS: you mean you're working on packages for an environment for meego? | 18:42 |
| slavik | or did I misread a lot? | 18:42 |
| GordonS | you mean my question before? I'm trying to run the image creator, and my host system is x86_64 | 18:43 |
| slavik | oh | 18:43 |
| slavik | so is mine | 18:43 |
| GordonS | but that is different from the qemu thing | 18:43 |
| slavik | but I am wondering if there is an environment for meego, like google made for android ... complete with screen and keyboards :) | 18:43 |
| GordonS | one sec | 18:43 |
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| GordonS | slavik: don't suppose your machine has an Intel video chipset? | 18:46 |
| slavik | GordonS: no :( | 18:47 |
| slavik | GordonS: nvidia mobile, nvidia 8800gts and a radeon 200ixp or whatever mobility | 18:47 |
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| GordonS | one sec | 18:48 |
| GordonS | http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_the_MeeGo_SDK_for_Linux | 18:49 |
| GordonS | may the force be with you :-S | 18:49 |
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| Roberto___ | With meego can you run java jars? | 18:50 |
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| odin_ | jars that conform to which runtime ? J2ME ? J2SE ? Dalvik ? | 18:52 |
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| odin_ | you might have a chance with J2SE if openjdk is in the repo | 18:53 |
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| slavik | GordonS: thank you :D | 19:22 |
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| slavik | GordonS: any clue if x86_64 will be a problem? | 19:24 |
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| wmarone | x86_64 for which system? | 19:28 |
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| slavik | wmarone: linux, ubuntu to be exact | 19:30 |
| GordonS | no idea | 19:30 |
| GordonS | I have never managed to get it to work... | 19:30 |
| wmarone | ok | 19:30 |
| GordonS | but then I am also trying to run 1.0.80 or 1.0.90 | 19:30 |
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| GordonS | because I need it for a project | 19:30 |
| wmarone | x86_64 is not supported at this time for MeeGo development | 19:30 |
| GordonS | gah | 19:30 |
| wmarone | it -might- work, but you're on your own | 19:31 |
| GordonS | do you know where the Debian-flavoured source packages are? | 19:31 |
| wmarone | I recommend using VirtualBox | 19:31 |
| wmarone | source packages for what? | 19:31 |
| GordonS | VirtualBox doesn't work worth @%*(@ for Meego IME, nor does VMware | 19:31 |
| wmarone | I know | 19:31 |
| GordonS | wmarone: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/tools/repos/ | 19:31 |
| GordonS | I am trying to run the image creator | 19:32 |
| wmarone | ah | 19:32 |
| GordonS | there are Debian 64-bit packages, but not Ubuntu | 19:32 |
| wmarone | won't those work for you? | 19:32 |
| GordonS | and the Debian packages would probably work, but... I'd rather get the dependencies right | 19:32 |
| GordonS | mismatched glibc and all | 19:32 |
| wmarone | ah | 19:32 |
| GordonS | it probably will though | 19:32 |
| wmarone | I ended up doing image generation on a Fedora image | 19:33 |
| wmarone | err, Fedora VM | 19:33 |
| wmarone | and all dev work in Ubuntu | 19:33 |
| GordonS | I would be happy to build from source or whatever but there are no .dsc files up there | 19:33 |
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| wmarone | well there are tarballs for mic2 and whatnot at your link | 19:34 |
| wmarone | ah | 19:34 |
| GordonS | between having a 64-bit host and not having anything with Intel video I've been tearing my hair out ;-P | 19:34 |
| wmarone | yeah it's frustrating | 19:34 |
| GordonS | and with the image creator, I can actually build one for nVidia :) | 19:34 |
| wmarone | I suppose I'm just too used to working around things | 19:35 |
| GordonS | so am I... I've just not been very successful this time :-S | 19:35 |
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| GordonS | I managed to get the netbook image running in VMware at one point, but it was SLOOOOWWWW | 19:35 |
| wmarone | sure | 19:35 |
| GordonS | and I've never managed to get the handset image to work worth anything - not even on a borrowed machine with Intel video :-P | 19:36 |
| wmarone | vmware doesn't provide hardware 3D support to linux VMs | 19:36 |
| wmarone | heh | 19:36 |
| GordonS | it "kinda" does | 19:36 |
| GordonS | but apparently not really | 19:36 |
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| wmarone | I've got the xephyr setup working on my macbook | 19:36 |
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| wmarone | for both netbook and handset, though the SDK images are oooooold | 19:36 |
| GordonS | and I followed the qemu instructions with the handset image - and choosing "install" just gives me a black screen | 19:36 |
| GordonS | yeah, I am trying to run 1.0.90 at this point | 19:37 |
| GordonS | my project needs the newer Mobility | 19:37 |
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| wmarone | I wish there was a cheaper handset dev platform | 19:37 |
| Stskeeps | n900 or beagleboard | 19:37 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:37 |
| wmarone | well yeah, but neither have multitouch | 19:38 |
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| Stskeeps | point | 19:38 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:38 |
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| wmarone | other than that I do plan on getting a beagleboard xM soon :) | 19:38 |
| slavik | but qemu/kvm can fake a 32bit CPU in full virt mode, no? | 19:38 |
| wmarone | fake yes, but it's achingly slow | 19:39 |
| slavik | wmarone: how achingly, I have a quad 2.4GHz 8GB RAM system at home, still slow? | 19:40 |
| wmarone | hmm, well it might go faster | 19:40 |
| lcuk | i find the problem with emulation not to be the speed, but picking up my desktop and changing orientation is a bit tiring | 19:40 |
| dm8tbr | wmarone: the Archos generation 8 tablets will have multitouch and an SDE firmware is expected somewhen soon too | 19:41 |
| wmarone | I haven't thrown QEMU at my desktop, but I still have the virtualbox layer there | 19:41 |
| dm8tbr | SDE firmware == open bootloader, arbitrary kernel, you own the device | 19:41 |
| wmarone | dm8tbr: has archos stopped fighting the community? | 19:41 |
| dm8tbr | wmarone: yes two generations ago | 19:41 |
| wmarone | ok | 19:41 |
| wmarone | can X be built with 3D acceleration for the hardware ? | 19:41 |
| dm8tbr | they simply strip out the DRM bits and there it goes | 19:42 |
| dm8tbr | wmarone: yes, our current FroYo build has SGX and as soon as Obko is back we will have meego with SGX too I hope | 19:42 |
| wmarone | oh | 19:42 |
| dm8tbr | current hardware is still resistive touchscreen though | 19:42 |
| dm8tbr | but the new A43/70/101 should be MT | 19:43 |
| wmarone | how'd you get the drivers built? | 19:43 |
| dm8tbr | download TI-blob, install, bliss | 19:43 |
| wmarone | ahh | 19:43 |
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| dm8tbr | also archos provides the kernel part of the drivers under GPL | 19:43 |
| slavik | lcuk: http://www.bash.org/?930008 when it gets approved. :) | 19:44 |
| wmarone | dm8tbr: yeah, most do. the issue is the TI-blob, but that sounds good | 19:44 |
| lcuk | slavik, hm? | 19:44 |
| dm8tbr | wmarone: well, keep an eye on the openaos.org blog then. we'll be screaming on the top of our lungs once the SDE for gen8 comes out. ;) | 19:45 |
| slavik | your comment about the orientation of the desktop | 19:45 |
| lcuk | slavik, ahh | 19:45 |
| lcuk | that was tame | 19:45 |
| slavik | funny as hell though | 19:45 |
| lcuk | :D | 19:45 |
| slavik | definately made my day a bit better | 19:46 |
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| lcuk | heh glad to hear it | 19:46 |
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| slavik | I would still like to know when Nokia or anyone makes a dualcore ARM phone/netbook though. | 19:46 |
| lcuk | hmm | 19:46 |
| slavik | but NDAs seem very popular these days | 19:46 |
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| lcuk | the current devices are technically more than dual core - one core cpu, one powervr core and whatever others are speciialist processing units | 19:47 |
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| lcuk | just like the old amigas :) specialist units working together | 19:47 |
| slavik | right, but I am talking about the likes of OMAP4 | 19:47 |
| slavik | 2 A9 cores | 19:47 |
| lcuk | hold up, this isnt windows | 19:47 |
| lcuk | it doesnt need a dedicated AV core | 19:47 |
| Termana | Winders | 19:48 |
| slavik | although there was a company introducing a new ARM cpu which could do 2GHz on clock or something, that could probably make it to desktop or something. | 19:48 |
| Termana | :P | 19:48 |
| slavik | which would be neat | 19:48 |
| lcuk | the multicore devices will be good if they can be fed with data | 19:48 |
| lcuk | which areas of linux are specifically geared and optimised for multicore at the moment? | 19:48 |
| slavik | lcuk: that's easy, buy 1000 phones and make a cluster out of them | 19:49 |
| slavik | or a cluster over 3g :D | 19:49 |
| lcuk | slavik, yeah I already went over that scenario | 19:49 |
| lcuk | and am working on it | 19:49 |
| slavik | :D | 19:50 |
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| lcuk | I havent actually looked at hte qt multicore functionality | 19:50 |
| lcuk | and whether it makes use of decent threading | 19:51 |
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| lcuk | 20100907 is the latest handset image? | 19:53 |
| ScottishDuck | for n900, yes | 19:54 |
| lcuk | ta | 19:54 |
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| Stskeeps | wb DawnFoster | 20:17 |
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| DawnFoster | hey stskeeps | 20:18 |
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| Myrtti | I don't know what to think of these repositories popping up every day | 20:20 |
| Myrtti | I wouldn't install anything from them | 20:20 |
| frals | repos what? where? | 20:21 |
| Stskeeps | the netbook ones? | 20:21 |
| Myrtti | there's one russian one and one I guess british | 20:21 |
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| Myrtti | it's just like maemo in 2007 again | 20:22 |
| berndhs | Myrtti: well, there aren't any real repos for applications | 20:23 |
| Stskeeps | well, that's how it goes when we don't have anything like Extras, etc yet.. | 20:23 |
| Myrtti | Stskeeps: yup | 20:23 |
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| lcuk | Myrtti, how do you know which country the repos are from? ie, does the british one play the national anthem when you connect? | 20:26 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: "I guess british" | 20:26 |
| * Stskeeps wonders idly what's with the intense html mails some people tend to use | 20:27 | |
| Myrtti | ie. I don't. the domain names of said repos just kind of gives hints about possible "national origin" | 20:27 |
| Myrtti | Stskeeps: "Microsoft Outlook" | 20:27 |
| Stskeeps | no, but this is like hardcore html mails :) | 20:28 |
| kraiskil | Stskeeps: less configuring for the user - who reads mails in html form anyways ;) | 20:28 |
| kyb3R | forced html mailing = lazy coding | 20:29 |
| * kraiskil hopes MeeGo emailer client don't have html as default mail format | 20:29 | |
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| GAN900 | Stskeeps, <blink> ? | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | no, not <blink> | 20:36 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:36 |
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| wmarone | random question, does anyone know if the activesync support in FroYo is open source or closed? | 20:39 |
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| lbt | mark skarpness appears to be trying to misquote everyone into defeat :D | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | i'm a bit lost by now, tbh | 20:47 |
| lbt | it's not rational afaict | 20:47 |
| berndhs | lbt: perhaps Mark is in marketing | 20:48 |
| lbt | the counter-argument is just .... unqualified | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | let's not make it about the person, please, let's make it about the principles. | 20:49 |
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| tekojo | lbt: I really think Arjan and Graham had good points today | 20:49 |
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| Stskeeps | each of us may be in a position to have to defend unpopular stances in our work, so | 20:49 |
| lbt | Graham's point was interesting | 20:50 |
| tekojo | vendors will do stupid things anyway, a piece of paper does not stop them | 20:50 |
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| lbt | but my real concern is that they will bar any opensource app that builds upon the work of another | 20:50 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: s/opensource//g :P | 20:51 |
| lbt | anyone who uses lcuk's libraries to ship a liqbase plugin | 20:51 |
| tekojo | well, if they do they are sliding to oblivion, right? | 20:51 |
| kfx | static linking will save us all | 20:51 |
| lbt | kfx: or that... which will kill us | 20:51 |
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| tekojo | all apps coming from a repo will rely on core + that repo | 20:51 |
| lbt | tekojo: I agree ... that's a given | 20:51 |
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| lbt | in practice that will happen a lot | 20:52 |
| tekojo | I'm not going to worry about it too much | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | well, we can always try it out for 1.1 so we can learn the hard way why it's a bad idea | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:52 |
| lbt | and it can still happen if compliance permits 'proper' sw | 20:52 |
| tekojo | Stskeeps: exactly :) | 20:52 |
| lbt | *BUT* | 20:52 |
| lbt | if meego shoots proper software then there is no toehold | 20:52 |
| lbt | there is no gentle easing open | 20:53 |
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| lbt | *that* worries me | 20:53 |
| tekojo | the thing is MeeGo needs to anticipate the most brilliantly stupid ideas people may have and try to stop them beforehand | 20:53 |
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| tekojo | this leads to some overstatements and too detailed rules | 20:53 |
| lbt | *nod* | 20:53 |
| kyb3R | yup | 20:53 |
| berndhs | tekojo: right, and it still won't work, the stupidity will get in there | 20:54 |
| kfx | you can't fix idiocy with policy | 20:54 |
| lbt | the thing is that loosening this rool won't make a difference in that area | 20:54 |
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| tekojo | berndhs: sure, I know, I work for Nokia :) | 20:54 |
| lbt | as Stskeeps said, the spec doesn't forbid it | 20:54 |
| lbt | just arjan | 20:54 |
| Stskeeps | what is it -exactly- the goal of the meego compliance sticker is, for apps? | 20:54 |
| Stskeeps | that's what i'm missing | 20:54 |
| lbt | ovi | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | ovi's going to run over it with vendor apis, for sure | 20:55 |
| lbt | they will say "not compliant" bugger off | 20:55 |
| tekojo | well, if you are really just ignorant, you take the codebase, make a device and not call it meego | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | so that doesn't even apply | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:55 |
| lbt | yes... so they'll run of with vendor apis | 20:55 |
| lbt | and *STILL* won't allow Extras | 20:55 |
| lbt | because "you're not compliant" | 20:55 |
| lbt | it slams the door | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | well | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | my worry isn't actually extras and so on | 20:56 |
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| Stskeeps | let's say an API like QML came about, on staging to be included to Qt | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | where would this be added? it would be popular, of course, but where does it exist in meego ecosystem? | 20:56 |
| tekojo | actually as long as a device is compliant, and extras follows the compliance rules, who cares if there is a sticker if you can add repos? | 20:56 |
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| lbt | tekojo: because ovi will care | 20:57 |
| kfx | is ovi running this project? | 20:57 |
| tekojo | Qt is not the best example, they actually have the candidate API system | 20:57 |
| kfx | (serious question, how much "pull" do they have) | 20:57 |
| tekojo | no, Ovi is a store | 20:57 |
| lbt | which means the very best of the extras apps won't get to the TV adverts | 20:57 |
| lbt | s/ovi/random name/ | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | tekojo: yes, but with a 6 month release cycle of meego, we won't see it for a while :P | 20:57 |
| tekojo | Stskeeps: neither do I see it on other distros | 20:58 |
| Stskeeps | true | 20:58 |
| tekojo | only if I run alphas and betas (like I do) | 20:58 |
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| Stskeeps | actually, how does something like iphone solve this? | 20:59 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, we have unity3d | 20:59 |
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| tekojo | iphone only has one commercial store | 21:00 |
| tekojo | you need something you go to Apple and negotiate | 21:00 |
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| Stskeeps | right, but do they allow '3rd party dependancies'? | 21:00 |
| tekojo | AFAIK sandboxing | 21:00 |
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| tekojo | but I'm not sure if there are exceptions | 21:01 |
| GAN900 | Why are we pandering to operators in the spec? | 21:01 |
| lbt | GAN900: hah... $$$$ | 21:02 |
| lbt | I personally like being paid to work on OSS | 21:02 |
| kfx | you won't, if you let them force you into making unsustainable products | 21:03 |
| lbt | kfx: list the options in this space..... you won't get banned for flooding ;) | 21:04 |
| berndhs | its fine to pander to operators, just not in the technical spec | 21:04 |
| kfx | exactly | 21:05 |
| lbt | berndhs: http://www.mvista.com/download/author.php?a=39 ROFL.... "He has held a variety of technical and marketing positions" | 21:05 |
| kfx | at least make the spec worth saving, even if the operaters booger it up with failed app-store clones you still have something to build on | 21:05 |
| ml-mobile | pandering to operators is bad as their intentions tend to be wholly opposite of that which does not suck | 21:05 |
| Stskeeps | lbt, while berndhs was spot on, go after the arguments, not the man :P | 21:06 |
| lbt | it helps to understand his position | 21:06 |
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| Stskeeps | of course - and affiliation | 21:06 |
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| ScottishDuck | ugh parallels 6 | 21:07 |
| lbt | nothing wrong with marketing.... people look at it a different way and some may not even understand the tech | 21:07 |
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| ScottishDuck | the tools wont compile :/ | 21:07 |
| tekojo | actually I would rather take in from the point of view that MeeGo needs to go big, and that requires a lot of involved commercial players | 21:07 |
| lbt | tekojo: yes | 21:07 |
| tekojo | which requires some rules to be set | 21:07 |
| lbt | yes | 21:08 |
| tekojo | as said, otherwise se will do really tupid things | 21:08 |
| lbt | and it needs to avoid forcing their hand | 21:08 |
| lbt | big players won't go for it | 21:08 |
| lbt | however.... | 21:08 |
| Stskeeps | playing the devils advocate, that we didn't exactly skyrocket the maemo platform by open source alone | 21:08 |
| kyb3R | to avoid developers hands is what counts | 21:08 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:08 |
| lbt | it also makes sense to not forbid the underlying development model that got us here | 21:08 |
| kyb3R | to avoid tide of developer hands i mean | 21:09 |
| tekojo | the funny thing is that if I were at an operator, I wouldn't be jumping with joy at the limitations in that spec now | 21:09 |
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| lbt | tekojo: if we believe in the opensource "build on the work of others" then why do we prohibit it.... | 21:09 |
| lbt | not even make it optional... | 21:09 |
| tekojo | but force it? | 21:10 |
| tekojo | I thought you were against forcing things :) | 21:10 |
| lbt | no, sorry... | 21:10 |
| lbt | the spec forces it off | 21:10 |
| lbt | I want it optionally on | 21:10 |
| tekojo | I prefer no comment on it :) | 21:10 |
| lbt | the spec prohibits sharing | 21:11 |
| Stskeeps | what was the key argument against 3rd party dependancies again? | 21:11 |
| lbt | I want to permit optional sharing | 21:11 |
| tekojo | Stskeeps: ignorance? | 21:11 |
| kyb3R | :) | 21:11 |
| berndhs | fear of the unknown ? | 21:11 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: : "If compliance says that compliant apps can have external dependencies, then every compliant device MUST support those dependencies and ensure they are available to every device. That is the burden we are debating." | 21:11 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: damnit, he noticed the parts of the spec | 21:11 |
| tekojo | I don't see it limiting 3rd party deps if they come the same source | 21:11 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: I did ram them in there | 21:12 |
| ScottishDuck | speculation of maemo 5 pr 1.3 | 21:12 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: has it changed? | 21:12 |
| ScottishDuck | here we go again | 21:12 |
| Stskeeps | tekojo: well, that's what is implied by now | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | that you can't have 3rd party deps, no matter what | 21:13 |
| ali1234 | is there any rule that says a meego compliant device is NOT allowed to be able to install non-compliant packages? | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | (just got stated as an error in spec) | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: no, thank god | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | which brings me back to the question of what it even matters | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:13 |
| ali1234 | well then none of it matters, if people want packages with dependencies, they won't get a sticker.... big deal | 21:13 |
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| kyb3R | so it would be up to the user to solve dependancies? | 21:14 |
| ali1234 | (want to make) | 21:14 |
| ali1234 | no, it would be up to developers to provide a new package installer that handles dependencies (maybe you could even get it sneaked in as "compliant too) | 21:14 |
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| berndhs | ali1234: good marketing could make it an advantage? "SlicedBread is Not Meego Compliant !" | 21:15 |
| kyb3R | ali1234: ok | 21:15 |
| tekojo | I would rather think that the spec is trying to wiggle out of having to maintain every library out there | 21:15 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: i'm wondering if the resolution is that we make a bet that we will see immense problems with app stores over the 1.1 period.. if we do, they owe us a round of beer, if not, we owe them | 21:15 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:15 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, it's a 6 month one period | 21:16 |
| th0br0 | :P | 21:16 |
| ali1234 | there is clearly going to be a massive explosion of app stores | 21:16 |
| tekojo | it would actually help to hear what Mark Skaprness took as initial assumptions | 21:16 |
| lbt | you'd bet a career of working on kinda-java for a beer? | 21:16 |
| th0br0 | there are going to be multiple app stores? :S | 21:16 |
| ali1234 | open sources is being marketed directly as "something that lets you make your own app store so you don't have to give a cut to anyone else" | 21:16 |
| kyb3R | hopefully | 21:16 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: chances are i'd just go for obscure product development, or moving to the polish mountains if meego blows up | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:17 |
| tekojo | also target audience is a question I haven't seen discussed | 21:17 |
| ScottishDuck | If you want commercial interest, you can't have GPLv3 poking around | 21:18 |
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| lcuk | hmm | 21:18 |
| * lcuk reads logs | 21:18 | |
| Stskeeps | ScottishDuck: i think that's a bit too late now | 21:19 |
| kyb3R | you can make money with content and services without getting any from selling apps | 21:19 |
| * CosmoHill wonders if he should do a lot of back ready and research | 21:19 | |
| CosmoHill | or get drunk | 21:19 |
| ScottishDuck | Stskeeps: yes, you could say that :P | 21:19 |
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| lcuk | question: what good is open source and communal barn building if the principle devices make it an uphill struggle for the community to get their applications (which would work on the same principles as the core OS) onto the devices they are helping? | 21:21 |
| Stskeeps | most developers would use qt, i would guess | 21:21 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:21 |
| ali1234 | it's no good at all, your time would be better served cracking vendor bootloader and putting your own meego fork on there | 21:21 |
| lcuk | thats not desired either | 21:22 |
| tekojo | lcuk: maybe not all vendors are about locking down+ | 21:23 |
| tekojo | ? | 21:23 |
| lcuk | tekojo, good, could you get a statement about nokia's intent? | 21:23 |
| tekojo | no, I'm watching television :) | 21:23 |
| lcuk | heh | 21:23 |
| berndhs | does any company know what their intent will be in 6 months ? | 21:24 |
| kyb3R | how about from a strategy plan? | 21:24 |
| Stskeeps | what strategy :P | 21:24 |
| Stskeeps | ;) | 21:24 |
| kyb3R | :) | 21:25 |
| tekojo | Stskeeps: powerpoints I presume | 21:25 |
| lcuk | tekojo, i actually like your answer a lot | 21:25 |
| kyb3R | tekojo: :) | 21:25 |
| lcuk | a lot more than I initially thought | 21:25 |
| tekojo | lcuk: you like me watching television? | 21:25 |
| lcuk | no, about not all vendors are about locking down | 21:25 |
| lcuk | it would be good to ask them directly | 21:25 |
| lcuk | whether they would be interested in a truly open meego variant | 21:26 |
| tekojo | yes, there's that plural in there :) | 21:26 |
| lcuk | similar to how maemo is right now :) | 21:26 |
| lcuk | sure | 21:26 |
| lcuk | (open as in not locked down and easy to add community apps) | 21:26 |
| lcuk | and we come up with strong positive (as lbt has been pushing last few days) reasons and justifications as to why open platform is better | 21:27 |
| tekojo | it would be interesting to ask, yes | 21:28 |
| lcuk | rather than fighting and assuming its all going to be locked | 21:28 |
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| lcuk | ie "is open source a sham to you, or do you want your device platform to encourage growth and innovation" | 21:28 |
| ali1234 | wow, that's not a loaded question... | 21:28 |
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| lcuk | :D isn't that what all polls are? | 21:29 |
| berndhs | lcuk: so you ask them if they are still beating their wives ? | 21:29 |
| lcuk | berndhs, i stopped a while ago thanks, the bruises have gone down | 21:29 |
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| th3hate | Stskeeps, is it possible to include Intell AppUp store in vanilla MeeGo, or it's considered an added value? | 21:30 |
| th3hate | intel* | 21:31 |
| lcuk | tekojo, do you have a list of the various manufacturers and contact points we could put something together about this? | 21:31 |
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| tekojo | lcuk: me not, and I don't think it would be proper with me working for a vendor :) | 21:31 |
| achipa | lcuk: the more closed the average MeeGo implementation will be, the sooner a CyanoMeeGo will pop-up with a fully open extras of it's own | 21:31 |
| lcuk | reasonable enough tekojo, sorry to put you on the spot like that | 21:32 |
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| lcuk | achipa, thats the point | 21:32 |
| lcuk | that encourages fragmentation | 21:32 |
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| tekojo | lcuk: not sure who to ask either | 21:32 |
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| lcuk | tekojo, i am sure we will find out | 21:33 |
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| lcuk | its got to be entirely possible to come up with a blended approach like maemo has | 21:34 |
| lcuk | just much much slicker | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | the thing is, nokia really really want you to write apps for ovi, and ovi covers symbian and others... hence Qt | 21:35 |
| lcuk | ali1234, and ovi and qt are totally totally awesome | 21:35 |
| achipa | ali1234: this is not really about Qt | 21:35 |
| lcuk | i have 100000000% respect for both things | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | it kind of is about Qt, because if you need to use some other library, then Qt has failed | 21:36 |
| lcuk | but I also think the little man who writes a cool little tool that happens to use a community library | 21:36 |
| lcuk | should have the same options as any big budget software shop | 21:36 |
| ali1234 | and Qt *is* open source, after all | 21:36 |
| lcuk | ali1234, but new use cases come out every day | 21:36 |
| achipa | ali1234: You could say it the other way round, too - if you don't need any other library - then it's an OS | 21:36 |
| lcuk | and a new class for doing XYZ | 21:36 |
| lcuk | gets made by me or you | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | well, yeah, Qt *is* pretty much a whole OS :) | 21:37 |
| lcuk | and has to grow somewhere | 21:37 |
| lcuk | before it ends up in qt by default | 21:37 |
| achipa | it's already a kitchen sink and yet it doesn't include half of what is needed | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | what do you feel is missing? | 21:37 |
| lcuk | the Qt ideology isnt even up for discussion | 21:37 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, there will always be something missing | 21:38 |
| ali1234 | i'm geniunely interested is specific examples :) | 21:38 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: | 21:38 |
| lbt | Applications *MUST NOT* require (in RPM terminology) packages that are not themselves compliant. | 21:38 |
| lbt | Applications that require (in RPM terminology) packages that cannot be provided MUST NOT be installed. | 21:38 |
| lcuk | you want a specific one I see now? - live wallpaper | 21:38 |
| achipa | ali1234: just to pick the single biggest category on competing platforms - gaming oriented libs ? | 21:38 |
| lcuk | whole set of live wallpaper classes are needed in the meego we see today | 21:38 |
| lcuk | now those have to grow and evolve | 21:39 |
| lcuk | and be thoroughly tested | 21:39 |
| mikkoh | hi, meego-n00b here. is it possible to use libmeegotouch without any meego sdk/chroot env? | 21:39 |
| ali1234 | achipa: hmm... you feel that the Qt/3D and Qt quick stuff is not good enough? | 21:39 |
| lcuk | before any kind of meego compliance can be thought about | 21:39 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: your phrasing? | 21:39 |
| achipa | ali1234: ? For what ? | 21:39 |
| lbt | yes | 21:39 |
| ali1234 | achipa: for making games | 21:39 |
| lbt | proposed to reduce burden | 21:39 |
| achipa | ali1234: try writing an Epic Citadel type of demo in it - you won't get far | 21:39 |
| tekojo | lbt where did you find that? | 21:40 |
| berndhs | ali1234: recording audio doesn't work right in qt46 | 21:40 |
| lbt | ie "respect 404s... duh" | 21:40 |
| lbt | tekojo: I wrote it | 21:40 |
| achipa | ali1234: but if a beefed up tetris is enough... sure :) | 21:40 |
| lbt | to blend in around line 157 | 21:40 |
| tekojo | ah | 21:40 |
| ali1234 | berndhs: presumably that's a bug though :) | 21:40 |
| Myrtti | yall need more cheesecake | 21:40 |
| lcuk | the point is: extensions will be created for the single case first. then they may be developed into a library. then they may evolve into operating system components. | 21:40 |
| ali1234 | i mean, i know a lot of this stuff isn't finished yet, but neither is meego... | 21:40 |
| achipa | ali1234: even good ole SDL and pygame are better suited in some aspects - but that is not the point... | 21:41 |
| * tekojo cheesecake... kitchen | 21:41 | |
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| lbt | food | 21:41 |
| lbt | no comments.. hitting send | 21:41 |
| achipa | NO ! I forbid you to mention food at this late hour ! | 21:41 |
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| * GAN900 had ribs for lunch. | 21:41 | |
| lbt | mushroom omelette.... on buttery bread sandwiches :) | 21:42 |
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| * lcuk rips out one of GAN900's ribs | 21:42 | |
| tekojo | lbt: so it's you who is filling my lists inbox! | 21:42 |
| lcuk | i had egg fried rice before :D | 21:42 |
| lbt | \o/ | 21:42 |
| GAN900 | It's the worst when there's a new BBQ place up the street running their smokers all of the time and stinking up the whole block. | 21:42 |
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| kyb3R | :) | 21:42 |
| kfx | no, that is actually the *best* | 21:42 |
| Myrtti | I had a rather large chicken balti from tesco, with naan and bhajis | 21:42 |
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| kyb3R | mmmm....ribs | 21:43 |
| Myrtti | nomnomnom indian | 21:43 |
| achipa | tekojo: btw do you perchance know if there are any Nokians taking part in defining the compliance program ? | 21:43 |
| achipa | (must... keep... mind... off... food | 21:43 |
| tekojo | achipa: no idea | 21:43 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, you said something in backlog which is good I think | 21:43 |
| lcuk | Stskeepswell, we can always try it out for 1.1 so we can learn the hard way why it's a bad idea20:52 | 21:44 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps:P | 21:44 |
| lcuk | we should be able to adapt things as we go along | 21:44 |
| Tomaszd | lbt o/ | 21:44 |
| achipa | yeah, we'll mess up wetab real good ! :) | 21:44 |
| lcuk | and as yet nothing is fixed | 21:44 |
| lbt | Tomaszd: \o | 21:44 |
| ali1234 | achipa: i don't see anything in this epic citadel demo that couldn't be done with Qt... | 21:44 |
| Tomaszd | lbt, how's that desoldering pump ;) | 21:44 |
| Myrtti | I refuse to think that repeating old mistakes and not learning from warnings is a good idea | 21:45 |
| achipa | ali1234: Sorry ? | 21:45 |
| Myrtti | "ah, there's some pressure build up in the drill hole" "nnaaaah, just keep on drillin'" | 21:45 |
| Myrtti | BOOM | 21:45 |
| achipa | ali1234: A 3D bind is NOT a game engine. Otherwise people wouldn't be making Ogre, Box2d and chipmunk bindings for Qt | 21:46 |
| lcuk | Myrtti, ++ | 21:46 |
| lbt | Tomaszd: .... | 21:46 |
| ali1234 | achipa: Qt has (or will have) scene graph, camera etc, so you could make a fps type engine in it quite easily | 21:46 |
| Tomaszd | :) | 21:46 |
| lcuk | ali1234, of course you can make and install the whole operating system inside a single binary | 21:46 |
| kyb3R | Myrtti: it's natural when people are involved ;) | 21:47 |
| Myrtti | kyb3R: no, that's the way of making people NOT to involve | 21:47 |
| lcuk | the libraries are there to allow ease of reuse of common coding issues, and like I said a little bit ago, new use cases emerge every day | 21:47 |
| achipa | ali1234: no, seriously, believe me, I like Qt and all, but it's no game engine. | 21:47 |
| Myrtti | if nobody gives a shit about warnings and guidance recognised experts of the subject gives, then we have less of them very soon | 21:48 |
| ali1234 | 99% of what makes that demo look cool is the well made models and textures | 21:48 |
| Myrtti | and yes, I knew it was irony and sarcasm | 21:48 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, and that 1% is impossible to understand stuff that should be abstracted away inside a nice polished documented api ;) | 21:49 |
| Myrtti | meh, should take the bin out | 21:50 |
| ali1234 | lcuk: yeah, like the ones in Qt/3D... | 21:50 |
| lcuk | you noticed a problem with it? | 21:50 |
| lcuk | if so, please have a go at fixing it! | 21:50 |
| lcuk | file bug reports, offer alternatives etc | 21:50 |
| lcuk | write a replacement library *grin* | 21:51 |
| kfx | documented | 21:51 |
| ali1234 | problem with what? | 21:51 |
| lcuk | ali1234, you had a sarcastic tone, apologies if misunderstood | 21:51 |
| ali1234 | no i was being quite serious | 21:52 |
| lcuk | cool, does qt have support for online high score tables? | 21:52 |
| lcuk | or xyz | 21:52 |
| lcuk | or windows live interaction or wow stuff? | 21:52 |
| achipa | ali1234: So, how does Qt/3D deal with game physics ? Characters walking around and stuff ? AI ? Input controls suited to games ? | 21:53 |
| ali1234 | i'm sure Qt will have online highscores as soon as ovi has it :) | 21:53 |
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| ali1234 | in the meantime, you don't need very much from Qt in order to implement it, unless you want to write the backend in Qt (any why would you want to do that?) | 21:54 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, people do the strangest things | 21:54 |
| lcuk | (i should know..) | 21:54 |
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| ali1234 | as for a the other thing, how many games out there use a shared library for their physics/AI/game logic? | 21:55 |
| achipa | ali1234: in the open source world ? all of them | 21:55 |
| ali1234 | i would really suck if all games used the exact same AI | 21:55 |
| lcuk | ali1234, box2d | 21:55 |
| ali1234 | heh, open source games... good one :) | 21:55 |
| lcuk | lots of games use it | 21:55 |
| ali1234 | (now i am being sarcastic) | 21:55 |
| lcuk | angry birds is based on it | 21:55 |
| lcuk | or something like it anyway | 21:55 |
| achipa | ioquake, ogre3d, crystal space.... you name it | 21:55 |
| lcuk | take models, add weights | 21:56 |
| lcuk | bingo | 21:56 |
| lcuk | ali1234, look at how many games use SDL | 21:56 |
| ali1234 | hmm let's see... ogre3d gives you scenegraph and geometry controls only... almost identical to what Qt/3D is supposed to do | 21:56 |
| lcuk | "almost" | 21:56 |
| ali1234 | ioquake is completely self contained, afaik it doesn't require you to install some physical library/AI library etc first | 21:57 |
| lcuk | opengles is "almost" like opengl | 21:57 |
| th0br0 | opengles rocks :D | 21:57 |
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| lcuk | i do not doubt it! | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | yeah, Qt/3D actually hides the differences between gl and gles... unlike ogre, which barely even works on gles | 21:57 |
| achipa | ali1234: so, how's that skeletal animation in Qt/3D ? | 21:57 |
| lcuk | anyway, beer time | 21:58 |
| lcuk | who wants one? | 21:58 |
| ali1234 | achipa: good question | 21:58 |
| achipa | o/ | 21:58 |
| ali1234 | however i don't see any skeletal animation in that demo :) | 21:58 |
| lcuk | do you want a warm or a cold one? | 21:58 |
| achipa | ali1234: demo of what ? | 21:58 |
| lcuk | ali1234, skeletal animation will be cool to make living walking meegon characters | 21:59 |
| ali1234 | achipa: epic citadel | 21:59 |
| achipa | lcuk: warm | 21:59 |
| * lcuk slides an english ale over to achipa | 21:59 | |
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| lcuk | made in a micro brewery and cared for by several buxom wenches | 22:00 |
| achipa | ali1234: you're missing the point - epic cidatel is based on the unreal enginge that DOES include skeletal animation | 22:00 |
| achipa | lcuk: thanks (burp) | 22:00 |
| ali1234 | achipa: that doesn't mean they got it working on iphone | 22:00 |
| lcuk | iphone isnt exactly made for sharing and building though | 22:00 |
| ali1234 | but the thing is *you* are missing the point: how many unreal games are shipped without unreal engine, and require you to install it as a separate package? | 22:01 |
| lcuk | oh what a cool app, those walking monkeys are wicked | 22:01 |
| lcuk | can i use that to make some walking meegons? | 22:01 |
| lcuk | what answeer would you generally get in iphone land? | 22:01 |
| lcuk | and then ask what answer you would generally get in an open source environment | 22:02 |
| ali1234 | in a closed source environment you get "sure, you can licence our engine for $xxxx" | 22:02 |
| ali1234 | in a open source environment you get "sure, here is the code" | 22:03 |
| achipa | ali1234: so, if they suck and can't do it properly, then we should suck, too ? :S | 22:03 |
| ali1234 | this is completely irrelevant to the question of packaging | 22:03 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, not really | 22:03 |
| lcuk | because I probably wouldnt get to see the walking monkeys if all the devices are locked down | 22:03 |
| lcuk | if they were made using OSS principles and sat on a community repo | 22:04 |
| lcuk | by the way, this totally fails all the tests | 22:04 |
| lcuk | (because I wouldnt be allowed to make an app including real meegons without it being officially endorsed etc) | 22:04 |
| pupnik | ali1234: so you're saying gnu/linux isn't an optimal environmnet in which to release proprietary games? | 22:04 |
| ali1234 | pupnik: um... yes? | 22:05 |
| ali1234 | pupnik: optimal environment would be a games console, obviously | 22:05 |
| tobib | hmm you can have prorietary programs everywhere | 22:05 |
| lcuk | really? | 22:05 |
| pupnik | trying to guess what led to this discussion thread | 22:05 |
| lcuk | theres a great mix of open and source stuff at the moment in maemo | 22:05 |
| pupnik | did you already discuss loki games ali1234 ? | 22:05 |
| lcuk | we know it can and does work | 22:06 |
| RST38h | GNU/Linux sucks!!! | 22:06 |
| * RST38h ducks, quickly | 22:06 | |
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| tobib | FLAMEWAR HAS STARTED^^ | 22:06 |
| lcuk | RST38h, open source your stuff :P | 22:06 |
| achipa | NUKE IN 5...4...3... | 22:06 |
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| RST38h | lcuk:open source sucks too!!! | 22:06 |
| tobib | bluescreen (nuke was windows-controlled) | 22:06 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, sure it does | 22:07 |
| ali1234 | pupnik: tl;dr "meego should allow dependencies outside the core packages" -> "but Qt has everything you need" -> "no it doesn't, it doesn't have unreal built in" -> "how many games ship without their own copy of unreal" -> "but that's not the open source way" | 22:07 |
| RST38h | btw, ali1234, have you programmed for game consoles? | 22:07 |
| * achipa unpacks his ale from the nuclear proof shelter | 22:07 | |
| ali1234 | RST38h: not since they started filling them up with DRM | 22:07 |
| lcuk | achipa, that ale is so thick even a nuke would stand up in it! | 22:07 |
| RST38h | ali1234: which happened shortly after atari2600, I reckon? | 22:07 |
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| ali1234 | RST38h: well, ok, let me rephrase: not since they started filling them up with DRM that requires you to be online all the time | 22:08 |
| achipa | ali1234: okay, then... social networks ? How cool is including facebook libs over and over ? | 22:08 |
| RST38h | ali1234: and when did that happen? | 22:08 |
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| ali1234 | RST38h: pretty much when they figured out they can force you to upgrade firmware by making all the games require it | 22:11 |
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| pupnik | ali1234: so the disagreement only affects commercial software written for meego? should those apps be able to specify non-core open-source dependencies? | 22:11 |
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| ali1234 | pupnik: i think it really only affects open source apps | 22:12 |
| ali1234 | commercial developers don't mind bundling everything together into one package | 22:12 |
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| lcuk | think again ali1234 | 22:12 |
| ali1234 | as demonstrated by the huge amount of commercial games that do exactly that | 22:12 |
| RST38h | ali1234: so, no morepirated games on your PSP? | 22:12 |
| pupnik | if someone wants to port a FOSS package, it frequently is essential to get shared libraries up into a repo first | 22:12 |
| lcuk | and them bundling everything together is good for a constrained disk space and wireless download system how? | 22:13 |
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| * RST38h sighs: what are these people arguing about? Unreal? What Unreal? Your whole Meego Handset is as unreal as it gets. | 22:13 | |
| lcuk | thinking about this problem in desktop terms | 22:13 |
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| pupnik | heh RST38h | 22:14 |
| RST38h | It is not even a problem. Once you get a Meego handset in your hands and there will be an Unreal engin based game, THEN it MAY become a problem | 22:14 |
| achipa | RST38h: Unreal ? Or Mythic ? | 22:14 |
| RST38h | Whatever! | 22:14 |
| Stskeeps | ooh. metrics are out | 22:14 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: yes, i agree | 22:14 |
| achipa | Stskeeps: no, imperal units are out, metric ones are IN :P | 22:14 |
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| achipa | (yes, lame joke) | 22:15 |
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| RST38h | You need 1) hardware 2) firmware that is usable day to day 3) someone willing AND able to develop serious games for this device of yours | 22:15 |
| RST38h | And only then, MAYBE there is a problem with packages not being shared between other packages | 22:15 |
| achipa | guys. the game engine thing was an example. Take Python. Take SDL. Take espeak. Take whatever. | 22:15 |
| * RST38h takes Python. All Python apps on Maemo share the same Python (ugly thing too) | 22:16 | |
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| tobib | why don't use C | 22:16 |
| ali1234 | python is in meego too of course | 22:16 |
| achipa | RST38h: well too bad, all that stuff ain't compliant ! | 22:16 |
| * RST38h takes SDL. Aside from that unfortunate ttf problem,SDL is not causing ANY problems whatsoever | 22:16 | |
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| achipa | ali1234: but the bindings aren't. Oops. | 22:16 |
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| RST38h | achipa: Compliant with what? It is certainly "compliant" as far as I am concerned | 22:17 |
| ali1234 | achipa: bindings to what? Qt? | 22:17 |
| RST38h | Installs. Get shared. Runs. | 22:17 |
| lcuk | RST38h, you missed the whole point of the conversation | 22:17 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: My point is that there has not been a point to the conversation :) | 22:17 |
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| achipa | RST38h: You won't get shared. If it's not in the firmware, you have to bundle it in your app | 22:18 |
| berndhs | RST38h: no really, you missed it | 22:18 |
| achipa | RST38h: that shared thing was #maemo | 22:18 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: odd phrasing, 'public versions of metrics reports'? i guess you mean released or something? | 22:18 |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, nahh there will be private ones too :P | 22:19 |
| sjokkis | lbt: do you still have that link to the maemo request queue you showed me? | 22:19 |
| achipa | ali1234: bindings to anything, Qt, mobility, GTK, wx, whatever | 22:19 |
| lcuk | where are they by the way? | 22:19 |
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| Stskeeps | metrics? wiki/Metrics | 22:19 |
| ali1234 | you know this whole discussion highlights why apple lays down the law for app development in the way they do | 22:20 |
| Stskeeps | they're tired of listening to those smelly gnu hippies? ;) | 22:21 |
| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: Just reminding people that the metrics are public and can be shared with people | 22:21 |
| DawnFoster | as opposed to private and secret :) | 22:21 |
| DawnFoster | which they aren't | 22:21 |
| Stskeeps | ah :) | 22:21 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: yeah, didn't accuse you of holding something secret :) just noticed it | 22:21 |
| tobib | no gnu hippies are on the IPhone^^ | 22:21 |
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| RST38h | achipa: this sounds stupid. who came up with this wonderful idea? | 22:21 |
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| sjokkis | hey tobib, how do you know someone has an iPhone? | 22:22 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: basically they dont want people to all use a different gui toolkit so that all apps are inconsistent etc | 22:22 |
| achipa | ali1234: they don't lay down the law, they tweak, change, alter how they see fit | 22:22 |
| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: actually, it was to avoid the question I often get about sharing them | 22:22 |
| achipa | ali1234: one day you can use 3rd party libs, the next you can't. Sorry. Too bad if your business model depended on it | 22:22 |
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| tobib | basically they don't want the flash on IPhone compiler thing | 22:22 |
| DawnFoster | I have to resist the urge to say "well, duh. it's on the wiki - it's already public" ;) | 22:22 |
| achipa | tobib: but they do now (again) | 22:22 |
| tobib | yes i didn't believe it | 22:23 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: or the day we can all say 'did you notice the meego logo? it's all open' | 22:23 |
| Stskeeps | ;) | 22:23 |
| achipa | tobib: I guess Android with Flash was getting dangerously competitive... | 22:23 |
| achipa | RST38h: it's called MeeGo Compliance program. Will help vendors apparently, in some weird way. | 22:24 |
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| achipa | RST38h: MeeGo Application Compliance, that is... | 22:25 |
| RST38h | achipa: Well, this means Meego device will either have to become non-compliant or useless | 22:25 |
| ScottishDuck | Flash on mobile will always be a bad idea | 22:25 |
| RST38h | devices | 22:25 |
| achipa | ScottishDuck: flash on anything is a bad idea | 22:25 |
| sjokkis | ScottishDuck: flash is a bad idea, but we still have to live with it, for now | 22:25 |
| * achipa thinks about the state of 64bit linux flash | 22:25 | |
| ali1234 | RST38h: no, it just means your app that requires a library from somewhere else won't be meego compliant, and no app store will accept it | 22:25 |
| ScottishDuck | achipa: they brought it back | 22:25 |
| tobib | flash is the buggiest web standard i ever saw | 22:25 |
| RST38h | ali1234: And why do I care about app stores? | 22:26 |
| sjokkis | it's a standard? | 22:26 |
| tobib | oh well | 22:26 |
| tobib | in fact | 22:26 |
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| achipa | ScottishDuck: I know. Doesn't mean they can't take it away (again). | 22:26 |
| RST38h | ali1234: Given how dismal chances of success are there? | 22:26 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: if you don't care about appstores, then you won't care about meego app complaince... /discussion | 22:26 |
| RST38h | ali1234: Gooood =) | 22:26 |
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| * RST38h almost done installing 720MB of apps onto his phone, no app stores in sight | 22:27 | |
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| McPels | Hi friends | 22:27 |
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| McPels | I HAVE A QUESTION! | 22:28 |
| GordonS | WRT Flash, I care somewhat less about the "buggy" than the "not supported everywhere" and the "flying CPU hog" :-P | 22:28 |
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| * GordonS covers his ears | 22:28 | |
| sjokkis | McPels: TELL US! | 22:28 |
| GordonS | you are loud :) | 22:28 |
| tobib | hmm flash is supported on most architectures | 22:28 |
| McPels | I HAVE A QUESTION!/ | 22:28 |
| RST38h | McPels: Once you have had that QUESTION, flush and come back | 22:29 |
| sjokkis | whatever, GordonS. caps lock is cruise control for cool | 22:29 |
| achipa | kick in 5...4...3... | 22:29 |
| tobib | hmm except of 64-bit^^ | 22:29 |
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| tobib | and with buggy I also meant "flying CPU-hog " | 22:29 |
| achipa | tobib: most ? How many is most architectures nowadays ? | 22:29 |
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| achipa | tobib: Debian runs on a dozen or so, how many of them have Flash ? | 22:30 |
| GordonS | sjokkis: I thought that was u5in6 l0tz of l3773rz and Z's... | 22:30 |
| tobib | archipa : flash supports Linux | 22:30 |
| tobib | thats more than most other commercial technologies | 22:30 |
| achipa | tobib: Linux is not an architecture | 22:30 |
| tobib | achipa : ok it's an OS | 22:31 |
| tobib | achipa : but on the Desktop Computer there is only x86 and x86_64 as far as I know | 22:31 |
| lcuk | DawnFoster, wheres the usual irc stats ? | 22:32 |
| lcuk | http://wiki.meego.com/Metrics#Monthly_Metrics | 22:32 |
| lcuk | i see metrics and theres a pdf of overall things | 22:32 |
| achipa | tobib: that would be the Adobe maths... clicking on ANY DEVICE gives a list of 6 (six) phones | 22:32 |
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| lcuk | but I cant seem to find the amusing ones which has out of context quotes from folks :D | 22:32 |
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| * lcuk giggles at them usually ;) | 22:32 | |
| McPels | sjokkis: Can I install Meego on my laptop? | 22:33 |
| sjokkis | yes | 22:33 |
| sjokkis | now go forth and prosper | 22:33 |
| achipa | McPels: the question !!! depends on what kind of laptop do you have | 22:33 |
| tobib | achipa : I never cared about flash on phones so i don't know really what they support in mobile market | 22:33 |
| ali1234 | tobib: the word you are looking for is "platform" | 22:33 |
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| achipa | tobib: the fun part is that it seems they now support Symbian, but are too ashamed of it to admit :P | 22:34 |
| McPels | achipa: you mean the brand matters? | 22:34 |
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| achipa | McPels: I mean the CPU/video matters. No AMD, no NVidia. | 22:34 |
| achipa | achipa: If you're all Intel, you're OK, otherwise... | 22:35 |
| achipa | geez, talking to myself | 22:35 |
| * achipa ran out of beer, goes back to coffee | 22:35 | |
| tekojo | time to go, night! | 22:35 |
| achipa | o/ | 22:35 |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, where do you put the irc stats nowadays? | 22:36 |
| Stskeeps | www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/data/irssistats.html | 22:36 |
| Stskeeps | i think | 22:36 |
| Stskeeps | www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/data/irssistats.aug.html | 22:36 |
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| ali1234 | hmm... i didn't realise i talk so much here | 22:36 |
| lcuk | awesome, thanks! | 22:37 |
| McPels | achipa: My CPU is Intel and my grafic is Nvidia! | 22:37 |
| McPels | achipa: Can I? | 22:37 |
| lcuk | oh lordy, i have most out of context quote this time :D | 22:37 |
| RST38h | You can man, by all means, you can | 22:38 |
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| RST38h | See? That was ALL he wanted. Simple isn't it? | 22:38 |
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| tobib | if it was always that simle... | 22:39 |
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| McPels | achipa: So can I? | 22:42 |
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| lcuk | McPels, some specially trained people have run meego on the strangest combinations of devices | 22:42 |
| lcuk | so, yes its possible | 22:43 |
| lcuk | but whether you can navigate the course to running on your hardware, i or anyone else cannot say at this time | 22:43 |
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| lcuk | simplest, download it to your usb stick and try it | 22:44 |
| lcuk | if it doesnt work, get some info and ask why | 22:44 |
| lcuk | if it works, come and jump around like a ninja at a wedding | 22:44 |
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| mikkoh | yo, should I be able to use libmeegotouch without anything else? the docs seem to indicate it is possible, and I can successfully compile it etc, but apps crash. Is there some known stable release or ..? | 22:46 |
| PelsSity | lcuk: My Internet is not that much OK for downloading! | 22:46 |
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| Mat_Matan | lcuk: f**k shool, become a ninja! :P | 22:47 |
| PelsSity | lcuk: So firstly I ought to be aware of ots possibility! | 22:47 |
| lcuk | mikkoh, hmm? which platform | 22:47 |
| lcuk | ots? | 22:47 |
| PelsSity | lcuk: I mean its possibility! :) | 22:47 |
| lcuk | Mat_Matan, i cannot become a ninja | 22:48 |
| lcuk | when I signed on for the pirates guild there was a clause :( | 22:48 |
| mikkoh | lcuk: platform? ubuntu 10.04, following installation instructions in http://apidocs.meego.com/mtf/ | 22:48 |
| slavik | lcuk: you fail at reading :P | 22:48 |
| ColKilkenny | mikkoh, do you have meegotouch-theme? | 22:48 |
| mikkoh | ColKilkenny: yes | 22:48 |
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| Mat_Matan | lcuk: so, ARGH! :) | 22:49 |
| ColKilkenny | hmm.. i have 10.10 and everything works okayish | 22:49 |
| lcuk | "arrrr" | 22:49 |
| slavik | also, anyone in authority that can say how ready meego is for primetime on a handheld? | 22:49 |
| ColKilkenny | lots of warnigns but i can compile apps etc. | 22:49 |
| lcuk | ARGH is the sound you make when my cutlas slices your midrif | 22:49 |
| mikkoh | hmm looking at the dump, it seems I might be missing an X extension.. | 22:49 |
| lcuk | ColKilkenny, cool | 22:50 |
| McPels | lcuk: I mean itsnot ots! | 22:50 |
| McPels | lcuk: SPILT OF TYPING! | 22:50 |
| Mat_Matan | lcuk: in polish language argh sounds better :P | 22:50 |
| lcuk | can you give some screenies from within ubuntu? | 22:50 |
| lcuk | Mat_Matan, and that explains why there are no famous polish pirates | 22:50 |
| berndhs | slavik: sure, lots of people in authority who can speak to that, but they're not talking | 22:50 |
| ColKilkenny | lcuk, nothing really to see | 22:50 |
| lcuk | ColKilkenny, :) more than you think | 22:51 |
| slavik | berndhs: I see, thank you. :( | 22:51 |
| slavik | does Intel have offices in NYC? | 22:51 |
| slavik | pretty sure Nokia doesn't | 22:51 |
| lcuk | ColKilkenny, are you also running it on ubuntu? | 22:51 |
| McPels | lcuk: I am that McPels! | 22:51 |
| McPels | lcuk: I wanna install Meego On my laptop! Can I? | 22:51 |
| ColKilkenny | lcuk, yes | 22:51 |
| Mat_Matan | lcuk: but we have more and better confessors of pasta god, FSM :P | 22:51 |
| lcuk | McPels, i already answered you | 22:51 |
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| lcuk | ColKilkenny, then post a screenie :p | 22:52 |
| McPels | lcuk: Sorry, I coulden't get u! | 22:52 |
| slavik | I think I will just mail hr@nokia.com and hr@intel.com and just say I want to work on meego. :D | 22:53 |
| ColKilkenny | lcuk, sorry I can't atm. as the libmeegotouch trunk won't compile atm :D | 22:53 |
| lcuk | McPels, by default you need intel everything and ssse3 compatable cpu - running it on non standard hardware usually involves recompiling and faffing | 22:53 |
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| lcuk | but people can do it | 22:53 |
| lcuk | ColKilkenny, you juse said it was | 22:53 |
| lcuk | "everything works okayish" | 22:53 |
| lcuk | were your words | 22:53 |
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| ColKilkenny | i meant generally. it'll probably compile tomorrow again | 22:54 |
| lcuk | then come back tomorrow and share a screenie :P | 22:54 |
| slavik | ColKilkenny: compiling is successful based on a clock? | 22:54 |
| lcuk | ColKilkenny, ps | 22:54 |
| ColKilkenny | slavik, yes :) they committed something today which made it go BOOM | 22:54 |
| lcuk | keep whatever patches and tweaks you need | 22:54 |
| lcuk | to get it running | 22:54 |
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| lcuk | and offer them as a patch in a bug against building it for ubuntu | 22:55 |
| McPels | lcuk: tnx so much! | 22:55 |
| slavik | if that was my problem ... my problem is not having a file in a working directory which svn claims exists, so I cannot add it | 22:55 |
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| lcuk | slavik, omg | 22:57 |
| lcuk | you are using svn? :P | 22:57 |
| slavik | yes | 22:57 |
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| slavik | it was the first thing someone set up | 22:57 |
| lcuk | which project? | 22:57 |
| slavik | lcuk: I am like the only person using this repo anyway, so :P | 22:57 |
| lcuk | i thought you were talking about libmeegotouch from gitorious | 22:58 |
| slavik | lcuk: internal hacks because people are lazy | 22:58 |
| slavik | oh, no | 22:58 |
| slavik | wrong company, wrong project :( | 22:58 |
| slavik | I wish I did though | 22:58 |
| lcuk | no prob | 22:58 |
| * lcuk understands all sorts of differences | 22:58 | |
| slavik | but I would prolly suck as an embedded dev ... I like Perl :) | 22:59 |
| GordonS | I'm only so-so as an embedded dev... I hate assembler :) | 22:59 |
| slavik | that, too | 22:59 |
| slavik | although I hear ARM is not as bad as x86 | 22:59 |
| GordonS | no question whatsoever | 22:59 |
| GordonS | x86 assembler is eeeevil | 23:00 |
| lcuk | was * it got better i believe | 23:00 |
| slavik | GordonS: there is something more eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebil than that | 23:00 |
| GordonS | there is pretty much always something worse :) | 23:00 |
| slavik | MIPS assembly | 23:00 |
| GordonS | I have never had any reason to look | 23:00 |
| slavik | neither have I | 23:00 |
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| McPels | Another question friends! | 23:07 |
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| McPels | Can I install MeeGo on my Nokia 5530 xpressmusic? | 23:08 |
| RST38h | Yes, after some work. | 23:08 |
| RST38h | Well, a lot of work. | 23:08 |
| th0br0 | ;) | 23:08 |
| Stskeeps | and breaking in to get a signed bootloader | 23:09 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:09 |
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| McPels | RST38h: And how? | 23:10 |
| th0br0 | :P | 23:10 |
| RST38h | McPels: Lots of work, man | 23:11 |
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| RST38h | McPels: Like...you know...HACKING work | 23:11 |
| th0br0 | imho... nokia should give us at least some signed bootloaders for meego for older phones :) | 23:12 |
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| ScottishDuck | 3260 | 23:13 |
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| ali1234 | th0br0: which ones are you thinking of? | 23:18 |
| th0br0 | no idea, frankly speaking. it is just some thought that popped up. | 23:18 |
| th0br0 | i mean, those running sym^2/3? | 23:19 |
| th0br0 | depends on hardware in the end i guess | 23:19 |
| ali1234 | symbian ^3 isn't exactly old | 23:19 |
| th0br0 | i know :) | 23:19 |
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| th0br0 | nor is symbian ^ 2 more or less | 23:19 |
| ali1234 | but yeah i'd like that too | 23:19 |
| ali1234 | but you are going to need hw3d drivers too | 23:19 |
| th0br0 | yeah :( but it would significantly boost meego use... especially as many more developers would be able to develop for meego on their phones | 23:20 |
| ali1234 | it's only a matter of time before someone makes a phone that can run android/symbian/meego at will | 23:21 |
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| ali1234 | it will either be extremely expensive or dirt cheap rubbish though | 23:22 |
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| th0br0 | weird, just got some timeout | 23:27 |
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| th0br0 | ali1234: well, the iphone gen 2 already runs android :) | 23:32 |
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| th0br0 | besides i don't think that we'll see such due to licensing stuff | 23:37 |
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| th0br0 | i'm out, bye | 23:44 |
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| nuovodna | hi, this guide http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC works with proprietary meego ?? | 23:46 |
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| nuovodna | is Meego handset based on Fedora ??? | 23:51 |
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| Jaffa | nuovodna: Define "properietary MeeGo"? | 23:52 |
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| nuovodna | a file like this : meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary | 23:52 |
| nuovodna | i suppose there are some propr drivers | 23:52 |
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| GAN900 | You ignore the spec thread for a few hours and it doubles in size. | 23:54 |
| wmarone | nuovodna: it should work when loaded on the SD card, yes | 23:54 |
| Jaffa | GAN900: You won't enjoy reading it. | 23:54 |
| Jaffa | Apart from lbt being generally excellent ;-) | 23:54 |
| berndhs | Jaffa: good fight and it's not even friday | 23:55 |
| nuovodna | thanks wmarone | 23:56 |
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| lbt | and sometimes a tad harsh : | 23:57 |
| lbt | I'm just hoping we get them before they leave work.... have you noticed how dead weekends usually are? | 23:58 |
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| lbt | oh wait... it's thursday... who said friday? | 23:59 |
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