IRC log of #meego for Wednesday, 2010-09-01

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ali1234	well, seems i have to convert the zImage to a uImage before i can use it	00:19
ali1234	it loaded it though, that's something	00:19
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CosmoHill	oh dear lord	00:25
CosmoHill	4chan made it onto the bcc	00:25
CosmoHill	bbc*	00:25
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lcuk	CosmoHill, for the cat woman thing, or for the uploading dodgy material to youtube thing?	00:26
lcuk	or any number of other articles where they get mentioned on the bbc	00:26
CosmoHill	car woman this time	00:26
Milhouse	cat woman. was I the only one who laughed when they saw the video (obviously I'm glad the cat was ok in th end)	00:26
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* Milhouse thinks maybe he was the only who laughed... oops. :)		00:28
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Milhouse	s/only/only one/g	00:28
infobot	Milhouse meant: cat woman. was I the only one one who laughed when they saw the video (obviously I'm glad the cat was ok in th end)	00:28
lcuk	Milhouse, i laughed when I saw the cat put the woman in the bin fake video	00:30
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lcuk	but was mortified when I saw woman put the cat in	00:30
CosmoHill	me to	00:30
* lcuk has cats of his own		00:30
CosmoHill	I was :oi	00:30
CosmoHill	but in real life	00:30
Milhouse	haven't seen the fake video - just the legit one. it wasn't really a lol, more of a "feck me!"	00:30
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CosmoHill	I don't have cats but my two best friends have enough for me	00:31
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Milhouse	just wondering, do we now have a MeeGo Joggler image for download with EMGD built-in?	00:33
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Milhouse	Or is there still problems distributing anything with EMGD?	00:33
CosmoHill	the latter I think	00:33
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Milhouse	bugger.	00:33
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Milhouse	I hate Imagination Technologies - why does anyone use their sh1t?	00:34
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Milhouse	Particularly in any project related to open source.	00:34
lcuk	Milhouse, do you see a realistic alternative for 3d?	00:35
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lcuk	i would rather having a poorly maintained and documented closed driver giving access to silicon than leave the silicon idle	00:36
Milhouse	Stock ARM cores aren't so bad... probably not in the same league as PowerVR but given they seem to be such a problem I'd trade performance for source code. If ARM got a few more design wins I'm pretty sure Imagination would think again.	00:36
Milhouse	When I say "stock ARM cores" I mean the current ARM GPUs	00:37
Milhouse	Mali	00:37
lcuk	cool, hold on then, lemme swap graphics card on my n900	00:37
Milhouse	now now, obviously I'm not talking about current hardware. :)	00:37
lcuk	:)	00:38
Milhouse	But this continued PowerVR nonsense is just ridiculous	00:38
lcuk	Milhouse, do you see a realistic alternative for 3d?	00:38
timeless_mbp	ask the user to get out and push?	00:39
timeless_mbp	s/push/draw by hand/	00:39
infobot	timeless_mbp meant: ask the user to get out and draw by hand?	00:39
lcuk	timeless_mbp, already been there, done that, got the tshirt ;)	00:39
thiago_home	Mali > PowerVR :-)	00:39
timeless_mbp	touche	00:39
thiago_home	Milhouse: I agree with you	00:39
ali1234	another way of looking at it is "stop patronising the user with flashy graphics on top of buggy software"	00:39
timeless_mbp	mlfoster: ping	00:39
thiago_home	everyone complains about the driver and SGX	00:39
thiago_home	yet it keeps being sold	00:39
timeless_mbp	DawnFoster: ping	00:39
timeless_mbp	thiago: amusingly, i met a guy over the weekend who actually works on the driver	00:40
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DawnFoster	hey timeless	00:40
timeless_mbp	from the supplier side	00:40
thiago_home	I know people who have worked on the driver	00:40
timeless_mbp	he complained about how we were such awful customers	00:40
thiago_home	and as Nokia, we have put some pressure on them to improve the driver	00:40
timeless_mbp	… that it works for everyone else … that they have no idea what we're doing to cause it so much grief	00:40
thiago_home	13 ms for a swap-buffers is stupid	00:40
timeless_mbp	it was really amusing :)	00:40
Milhouse	PowerVR seems to be a cluster fuck - nobody is happy!	00:40
timeless_mbp	Milhouse: not true!	00:41
thiago_home	that leaves 3 ms for preparing the frame if you want 60 Hz	00:41
timeless_mbp	everyone is happy to complain about it!	00:41
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CosmoHill	coughno swearing cough	00:41
Milhouse	(Sorry)	00:41
DawnFoster	thanks CosmoHill :)	00:41
CosmoHill	s'alright	00:43
lcuk	thiago_home, Milhouse - dali agreed	00:43
lcuk	but that doesnt mean it can jump	00:44
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lcuk	for all existing hw	00:44
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lcuk	is it a discrete chip or like the powervr with different name	00:44
lcuk	ie another core on the arm itself	00:44
lcuk	damn	00:45
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* lcuk cant even type today		00:46
CosmoHill	I can type. can't spell tho >.<	00:46
thiago_home	you can probably find some info on ti.com	00:46
thiago_home	architectural diagrams of OMAP3430	00:46
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ali1234	lcuk: it's built in to the omap chip	00:47
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bennry	Hi #meego	00:48
lcuk	ali1234, that will be good then, looking at a demo of it	00:48
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lcuk	http://www.arm.com/products/multimedia/mali-graphics-hardware/index.php	00:48
CosmoHill	thiago_home: you know how I've been bitching about my router. It's managed to keep the same IP address which is good for my server	00:48
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thiago_home	yeah	00:48
bennry	I've used every .raw and kernel image combo from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php on the N900 using MMS without any success.	00:49
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bennry	the current error I'm getting with meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1-vmlinuz-2.6.35-11.2-n900 and meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1-mmcblk0p.raw is a kernel panic: "No init found"	00:50
bennry	I checked the SD card, and there's an init executible in /bin	00:50
CosmoHill	it's like my SNR is inversely proportionate to the weather	00:50
bennry	I've tried two different SD card vendors	00:51
bennry	Kingston 4GB and Sandisk 16GB	00:51
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thiago_home	CosmoHill: known to happen. The weather affects the wiring.	00:51
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thiago_home	CosmoHill: I used to have problems with my cable modem, that it lost sync when it rained	00:51
bennry	If my questions are noise, plese direct me to the proper forum.	00:51
CosmoHill	"lovey weather today, now go outside"	00:51
Milhouse	lcuk/ali1234: Yep, TI is the problem since OMAP has PowerVR built-in... Nokia would probably need an "open source" friendly version of OMAP in order to break this cycle of PowerVR nonsense	00:51
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Aard	bennry: the back cover is on? (though iirc the panic message would be different)	00:52
CosmoHill	bennry: no you're in the right place	00:52
Milhouse	Or Nokia go elsewhere to source their ARM SoCs	00:52
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Milhouse	As for Intel choosing PowerVR... the mind boggles.	00:52
bennry	@aard - back cover is on	00:52
thiago_home	Milhouse: yeah	00:52
ali1234	Milhouse: it could be worse, they could use QSD with it's ATI graphics and "everything is done by the radio core" architecture	00:52
lcuk	Milhouse, technically there are ways round even the powervr, but it involves going off and changing whole way graphics are done	00:52
bennry	CosmoHill - good.	00:52
thiago_home	though some of the Atoms have OpenGL 1.x	00:52
thiago_home	I don't know which one is worse...	00:52
lcuk	do in process losing important compatability	00:53
lcuk	so	00:53
Aard	bennry: I have to admit that I never tried those images, and my test-hardware is at work	00:53
Aard	you might want to try in #meego-arm, though. with best changes of getting good answers during working hours in eest	00:54
Milhouse	lcuk: jumping through hoops is not the answer... open source friendly hardware suppliers is the solution. Existing hardware such as the N900 and Joggler are what they are, but future MeeGo hardware must avoid this problem at all costs otherwise they're no better than closed source solutions.	00:54
bennry	Aard: What would recommend? I'm trying to get Meego to boot on the N900. I've tried and failed withi all of the .ks files, and just finished trying with all of the .raw and MMS boot	00:54
Aard	bennry: I create my own images, which works for me	00:55
bennry	Aard: I'm not sure I want to flash the device.	00:55
bennry	Aard: Ok. Using the ks files and image-creator?	00:55
Aard	you don't need to flash the device (though it's handy to flash the kernel image if you use it often)	00:55
Aard	yes	00:55
Aard	well, variation of the image files	00:55
thiago_home	Milhouse: that's a worthy goal, but not always possible	00:56
bennry	Aard: I'll try again.	00:56
bennry	thanks	00:56
Aard	I'm using the image files from git (git://gitorious.org/meego-os-base/image-configurations.git). need to fill in the nokia proprietary url from one of the closed ks files	00:56
thiago_home	Milhouse: the PowerVR is a good example: the IP belongs to a separate company, so even OSS-friendly companies like Nokia and Intel can't release the source code	00:56
lcuk	Milhouse, its something a lot of people are actively seeking also	00:57
Milhouse	thiago: Sure... but it's worth trying at least. :) What good is there developing a whizzy open source OS when you can't even distribute a usable video driver?	00:57
Milhouse	lcuk: Good to hear. :)	00:57
thiago_home	Milhouse: if you're shipping tens of millions of units, the difference between a PowerVR-enabled device and something more OSS-friendly can be significant	00:57
thiago_home	the good is that it should work on OSS-friendly HW	00:57
Milhouse	thiago: Yes, but that can apply both ways	00:57
thiago_home	but that doesn't mean all companies must use OSS-friendly HW only	00:57
lcuk	Milhouse, realistically hardware has much longer cycles than the serious push (at least in mobile space) to open source the drivers has been.	00:58
thiago_home	MeeGo is OSS only. Meaning that it must work with a fully open stack.	00:58
Milhouse	thiago: The open source friendly hardware is likely to have active support for much longer than a device for which nobody can ship an updated video driver.	00:58
lcuk	hell, even in desktop world its still there	00:58
thiago_home	now, if someone ships a device that has non-OSS components, it's their problem.	00:58
thiago_home	as long as they don't do anything that would invalidate the MeeGo brand certification	00:59
Aard	bennry: and, as I said, try #meego-arm. people from the n900 adaption team should show up in about 9 hours there	00:59
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thiago_home	We've had this discussion before, and GAN900 was in favour of simply rejecting non-OSS-friendly HW	00:59
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thiago_home	Milhouse: when you're shipping tens of millions of units, you have a support contract with the driver vendor	00:59
lcuk	I have a feeling GAN900 would reject his own grandmother some days	01:00
bennry	Aard - Ha...ok. I'll be more timely later this week. I have a contact at Nokia but who isn't around today. Thanks again, I'll keep chugging along. I may have some recommendations on documentation updates	01:00
GeneralAntilles	Huh?	01:00
bennry	Aard: And with recommendations come edits :)	01:00
lcuk	GeneralAntilles, my bit was tongue in cheek :P	01:00
Milhouse	thiago: Fine, do ARM not support their drivers?	01:00
Aard	bennry: well, quite a few nokians are around in the evening as well, but the changes are better during our working hours ;)	01:00
thiago_home	people use closed source drivers for two reasons: 1) they have no choice, or 2) it doesn't matter that it's closed	01:00
thiago_home	sometimes 1 and 2 together	01:00
lcuk	2 is the usual	01:01
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thiago_home	in the case of large shipments, it's most likely (2)	01:01
Aard	bah, s/changes/chances/	01:01
lcuk	technically even for software, closed doesn't matter its the support issue that counts.	01:01
thiago_home	so, yeah, the N900 has SGX and PowerVR. But Nokia has a contract with Imagination.	01:01
thiago_home	and Imagination does fix and improve the drivers on our request.	01:01
* lcuk nods		01:01
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Milhouse	I'm sympathetic to the expediency argument, but closed drivers are becoming more of a problem and it's only going to become worse as the situation with MeeGo evolves.	01:02
thiago_home	it's unfortunate that others can't benefit that easily from this relationship, I agree	01:02
Aard	thiago_home: currently both hardware platforms use non-oss graphic drivers, unfortunately	01:02
thiago_home	but the choice for OMAP3430 was way back, and it's also economically-driven	01:02
timeless_mbp	Milhouse: can you contribute 1billion eur including open source hardware and software?	01:02
Aard	(both handset-platforms, of course. I'm not involved in netbook-stuff)	01:02
timeless_mbp	something which enables vendors to produce competitively priced hardware?	01:03
timeless_mbp	(tomorrow)	01:03
thiago_home	Aard: netbook is only slightly better because right now only Intel graphics chips work	01:03
Milhouse	timeless: I've just checked my piggy bank and that's a negatory	01:03
timeless_mbp	Milhouse: too bad	01:03
timeless_mbp	it'd be a good donation	01:03
timeless_mbp	you might even get a tax write off	01:03
Milhouse	timeless: 50p and a couple of washers, that any good?	01:03
thiago_home	it's probably not hard to get MeeGo to work on NVidia-powered netbooks, with the NVidia blob	01:03
thiago_home	Milhouse: sorry?	01:03
Aard	thiago_home: packaging other drivers is quite easy (at least as long as you're going for the xorg opensource drivers), and shouldn't be too hard with that binary crap stuff	01:04
Milhouse	thiago: donations	01:04
thiago_home	Aard: hard? No	01:04
thiago_home	Aard: do we want to support closed? That's a different question. And that's a No too.	01:04
vgrade	Millhouse, do you have mic2 build environment?	01:04
thiago_home	MeeGo wants to be open. Wants to force HW makers to be open.	01:04
Aard	that's why I mentioned the open xorg drivers in the first sentence	01:05
thiago_home	if a company (like Nokia) needs/wants to use HW without open components, the burden is on them to integrate that	01:05
Aard	I personally have never bought an nvidia card because I don't want to support that closed source crap (same for ati)	01:05
Milhouse	I can see that for the time being there is little choice but to use PowerVR/OMAP/Whatever, but it would be nice to know that decisions are being made (or at least thought about) to use something more "open" or friendly on future MeeGo (or even Symbian) devices.	01:05
blino	it could be hard, clutter or Qt issues can be exposed using nvidia closed drivers (you know that if you already tried Moblin/MeeGo with nvidia drivers)	01:05
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thiago_home	Milhouse: MeeGo.com (as the OSS project) decisions are being made for OSS's benefit	01:06
thiago_home	Milhouse: I can't tell you whether Nokia is planning on continuing with OMAP3, switching to something equally closed, or going open	01:06
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thiago_home	even if I could tell you, there's little we can do about this, since the HW costs are still an issue	01:06
Aard	thiago_home: for handset you currently don't really have much options about going open for graphics hardware.	01:07
lcuk	whilst we are on the subject, does the aava device have powervr?	01:07
thiago_home	if TI say they make an X price for OMAP3, and that is less than what STE charges for something with Mali, what do you think the decision will be?	01:07
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thiago_home	lcuk: I can look the specs up tomorrow, but I think it's SGX yes	01:08
* lcuk nods		01:08
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thiago_home	there are other considerations too	01:08
Aard	lcuk: it's branded as intel gma something, but it's thirdparty	01:08
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thiago_home	is the HW power-efficient? Does it have the latest cool feature? (1080p decoding, HDMI output, whatever)	01:09
possomfat	I'm new to this project and am trying to load the latest release to the N900, Any pointers would be appreciated, like where to start....I've got the SDK loaded and have done a QT app, now I need to load an image to my phone	01:09
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thiago_home	possomfat: the latest release is PR1.2 of the N900.	01:09
Milhouse	thiago: I know I know... it's just so frustrating to see so much wasted time and effort by people trying to get the drivers to work with this hardware.	01:09
possomfat	Where is it? How do I download it?	01:10
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Milhouse	thiago: as for Mali capabilities, they look up to snuff for a mobile device, certainly. As for cost and whether it's cheaper than PowerVR, I've no idea.	01:10
thiago_home	possomfat: well, if you have PR1.1, the Application Manager tool should have asked you to upgrade a long time ago	01:10
thiago_home	possomfat: if you have PR1.0, you need to download the image and reflash the device	01:11
lcuk	thiago_home, I think he meant the meego handset image.	01:11
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thiago_home	oh	01:11
lcuk	not maemo pr1.2 ;)	01:11
thiago_home	oops :-)	01:11
Aard	lcuk: just checked, iirc it's branded as "gma 600", which is a powervr core	01:11
thiago_home	you know, that makes a lot more sense now	01:11
lcuk	I had to check which chan I was in then :P	01:11
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lcuk	possomfat, http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC	01:12
possomfat	thanks	01:12
lcuk	those instructions are generic steps to getting meego handset onto a memory card and booting it	01:12
possomfat	I've reviewed that	01:13
possomfat	I was trying to do the usb sfroot way	01:13
lcuk	and you want to go a little further..?	01:13
DawnFoster	possomfat: hi again!	01:13
GeneralAntilles	Kindly avoid speaking for me, thanks! :P	01:14
lcuk	possomfat, eek, I had a snag of my own trying it (my memory card was not big enough)	01:14
DawnFoster	possomfat: also keep in mind that this is a very early developer version of MeeGo :)	01:14
possomfat	I guess my big conceptual issue is what image for the N900 handset do I down load and	01:14
possomfat	Hi Dawn	01:14
lcuk	possomfat, GeneralAntilles just offered to help if you PM him :P	01:14
possomfat	What Image do I download and how do I load it to the phone?	01:15
lcuk	hold on ill get the filename	01:15
lcuk	i cannot give a direct link because you need the eula bit	01:15
possomfat	Do I download the image to my meego root or the native linx dev box to load to the phone	01:15
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Aard	lcuk: remove that iirc above, it's the gma600.	01:16
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lcuk	possomfat, you download it first to your computer	01:17
lcuk	http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php	01:17
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lcuk	and its on there	01:17
lcuk	but my god that page is just a jumble of numbers and letters	01:17
possomfat	I take GeneralAntilles Help, just don't know how to PM him :P	01:18
lcuk	meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.16.20100824.1-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2 i believe!	01:18
lcuk	possomfat, thats probably a good thing	01:18
possomfat	Downloading now	01:18
possomfat	:)	01:18
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Milhouse	lcuk: totally agree, the file naming or page formatting would help make things a lot clearer. Heck, an FTP web listing would be clearer.	01:19
lcuk	once you have that, the instructions should let you follow it, I tried using my n900 itself for this	01:19
possomfat	Lcuk, I've previously downloaded all those files and hand them on my dev box	01:19
lcuk	your dev box is ? windows/linux/mac/amiga/spectrum?	01:20
possomfat	So I guess I need the next step	01:20
possomfat	box is Fedora	01:20
lcuk	then put your hat on and follow the linux instructions	01:21
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possomfat	Release 12	01:21
lcuk	i followed the n900 direct instructions also because I couldn't find a card reader that accepted the microsd only	01:21
lcuk	and I dont have a shim	01:22
possomfat	where are the instructions on what page?	01:22
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lcuk	http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC#Linux	01:22
lcuk	http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC#On_the_N900_itself	01:22
lcuk	are the 2 I read	01:22
lcuk	I skipped the Windows one ;)	01:22
possomfat	OK, putting my hat on, thanks for the help	01:23
lcuk	\o have fun	01:23
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lbt	yawn	01:35
CosmoHill	snap	01:35
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lbt	crackle	01:36
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CosmoHill	do something else, I wanna see if someone else times ou	01:37
* lbt gesticulates		01:37
lbt	nope... it's broken	01:38
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ali1234	i got u-boot to load a uImage and boot it succesfully	01:40
ali1234	but then the board just hangs	01:40
ali1234	does the n900 kernel have the command line built in?	01:42
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bennry	Aard: Pardon my ignorance, but could you lead me to instructions on how to build from Git + Propritery.ks?	01:48
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Aard	bennry: I have no idea if there are any instructions	01:49
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Aard	basically, take the handset/handset-armv7l-n900.ks, fill in the pathnames to the repositories (you can get the url to the propriatery nokia stuff from the kickstart from tablet-dev), and build it	01:50
Aard	if you want bleeding edge you may use http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/armv7l/packages/ and http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/handset/repos/armv7l/packages/	01:52
Aard	if not replace the daily by the release (1.0.90.1.20100831.1 is the most recent)	01:52
possomfat	lcuk: I must be real dumb, Because when I read the two sections you linked to they make very little sense - I've read them before	01:52
bennry	ok	01:53
bennry	aard: thanks.	01:53
possomfat	I just want to load the N900 Phone with the latest image which I have downloaded to my dev system. I'm Running Linux and dont have a microSD. I want to load it through the USB mounting the fsroot that way so I don't kill the OS it was shipped with	01:54
lcuk	possomfat, the n900 instructions made most sense to me, I am strongly technophobic myself so all the various flags and settings worry me	01:55
Aard	possomfat: you need a micro sd	01:55
lcuk	BUT having said that, lots of people have managed it	01:55
lcuk	which bit are you specifically blocking on	01:55
lcuk	possomfat, Aard is right there, you end up copying the whole big file onto your removable MicroSD card	01:56
lcuk	then you put it in your N900	01:56
Aard	the usb-load is just for the kernel, not the main os-image	01:56
lcuk	and run the flasher to replace only a very small part of the maemo system used for booting	01:56
possomfat	I thought there was a way to do the USB	01:56
lcuk	which even restores itself after you reboot	01:56
possomfat	Am I mistaken	01:56
Aard	possomfat: only for the kernel.	01:56
lcuk	possomfat, you need flash for a portion of it	01:56
Aard	you can chose to either flash the kernel, or just load it to memory	01:57
lcuk	but most heavy work is done on that 1cm little microsd card plugged in elsewhere	01:57
possomfat	OK, So I must have a micro SD to load the image with out nuking the original OS,	01:57
possomfat	Is that correct, that is my only option?	01:57
Aard	yes	01:58
possomfat	Once I have the micro SD card I load it from my computer to a micro SD card reader other than the one on the N900.	01:58
lcuk	yes	01:58
possomfat	Then I just transfer the SD card to the N900, is this right	01:58
lcuk	yes	01:59
lcuk	then plug in n900 using usb and do the little kernel bit	01:59
possomfat	funny, I always seem to overcomplicate things	01:59
lcuk	magic buttons	01:59
possomfat	Do you know a good micro SD card reader that works with Fedora, guess I need to go buy one	01:59
Aard	about everyone will do	02:00
lcuk	technically, under normal circumstanes, I use my N900 as a card reader..	02:00
lcuk	but this fails for this :P	02:00
lcuk	i am going \o gnite	02:00
Aard	sd card readers nowadays usually are just usb mass storage devices	02:00
possomfat	Thanks for the help!	02:00
possomfat	OK, I'll go get when and then continue, thanks, Good thing the phone plugs into the USB and I can't even use it, SD just easier at first I guess:)	02:02
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Wingzero	Hi Everyone	02:13
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chriadam	hello, Wingzero.	02:13
Wingzero	I have a problem with Meego	02:13
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Wingzero	I was hoping to get it working on a beagleboard	02:13
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Wingzero	I have followed the instructions here http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_on_Beagleboard_from_scratch, but when I boot it it seems it takes forever for it to boot the kernel	02:14
Wingzero	Right now the serial port reads ## Booting kernel from Legacy Image at 80300000 ...	02:14
Wingzero	Image Name: Linux-2.6.35.4-x1	02:14
Wingzero	Image Type: ARM Linux Kernel Image (uncompressed)	02:14
Wingzero	Data Size: 4645008 Bytes = 4.4 MB	02:14
Wingzero	Load Address: 80008000	02:14
Wingzero	Entry Point: 80008000	02:14
Wingzero	Verifying Checksum ... OK	02:14
Wingzero	Loading Kernel Image ... OK	02:14
Wingzero	OK	02:14
Wingzero	Starting kernel ...	02:14
Wingzero	Uncompressing Linux... done, booting the kernel.	02:14
asj	Wingzero: use pastebin	02:15
CosmoHill	pastebin?	02:15
* CosmoHill high fives asj		02:15
ali1234	hey that's some u-boot output	02:15
ali1234	i'm at the same point	02:16
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ali1234	but with n900	02:16
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Wingzero	generally how long does it take for Meego to boot?	02:17
Wingzero	Whats odd, is that the screen on beagleboard turns off :( and the serial line doesn't say anything	02:20
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Wingzero	I guess I have to leave it alone for couple of min or hours :(	02:28
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ali1234	Wingzero: check bootargs in u-boot	02:42
ali1234	i just discovered that mine is not setting it correctly	02:42
Wingzero	What boot args are you using?	02:42
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ali1234	well n900 expects something like "init=/sbin/preinit ubi.mtd=rootfs root=ubi0:rootfs rootfstype=ubifs rootflags=bulk_read,no_chk_data_crc rw console=ttyMTD,log console=tty0 snd-soc-rx51.hp_lim=42 snd-soc-tlv320aic3x.hp_dac_lim=6"	02:43
Wingzero	oh	02:43
Wingzero	hmmmm	02:43
ali1234	u-boot defaults to "root=/dev/ram0 rw mem=64M console=ttyS2,115200n8 initrd=0x80600000,8M ramdisk_size=8192"	02:43
ali1234	which ain't gonna work	02:43
ali1234	although it might be different for your board	02:44
Wingzero	I see	02:45
Wingzero	hmmm, mine seems to stops when it finds the memory card (with time of 1.5000sec)	02:47
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Wingzero	did you get it to boot?	03:01
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ali1234	i got a different result	03:11
ali1234	now it touches the onenand	03:11
ali1234	this is in qemu though	03:11
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ali1234	although judging from the way it maps it, it is jumping back into u-boot for some reason	03:14
CosmoHill	cyas	03:15
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Wingzero	hmmm odd	03:17
Wingzero	ya for me it get stuck here [ 2.085174] Waiting for root device /dev/mmcblk0p2...	03:17
Wingzero	not sure what to do	03:18
ali1234	put in a mmc card with rootfs on partition 2?	03:18
Wingzero	it does have rootfs	03:22
Wingzero	in it	03:22
Wingzero	I have verify it with my Linux machine	03:22
Wingzero	:(	03:22
ali1234	hmmmmmmmmmmm	03:23
ali1234	maybe this bootloader gives a different mtype...	03:23
Wingzero	[ 2.611236] mmc0: new high speed SDHC card at address 1234	03:24
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Wingzero	I wonder if that mmc0 should be mmc?	03:25
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Wingzero	oh men....	03:41
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Wingzero	:( can't figure it out, it just gets stuck there	03:57
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ali1234	well damn. mainline u-boot works way better than the old crufty TI version...	05:36
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ali1234	the beagleboard boardfiles pretty much work on n900 with a few small tweaks	05:37
ali1234	the kernel still won't boot properly though	05:37
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possomfat	Anyone: I have the .raw image on the micro SD card and the microSD in the 900N, Does anyone know how to boot it with the flasher?	05:51
ali1234	i know	05:51
ali1234	and i haven't even done it	05:51
possomfat	u rule, wanna share?	05:52
ali1234	what you do is you take the kernel image and do 'flasher-3.5 -k kernel.img -l -b'	05:52
ali1234	that will load meego kernel to RAM and execute it	05:52
ali1234	it won't flash it, so after reboot you get meego again	05:52
possomfat	on the device or on the linux dev box? Do I need the device connected to the USB?	05:52
ali1234	you need the device connected to usb	05:53
possomfat	OK, done connected to USB	05:53
ali1234	you have to turn off, hold u key, and plug in on usb	05:54
possomfat	One quick question, how does the flasher command above know to execute on the phone?	05:54
ali1234	then phone goes to usb flashing mode	05:54
ali1234	then you run the command	05:54
possomfat	K, what is the u key, that really small button on the long side?	05:54
ali1234	it's the key with 'u' written on it	05:55
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possomfat	ON the small keyboard on the phone, the u key?	05:55
ali1234	yes	05:55
possomfat	said connected to usb mass storage mode button or PC Suite mode button, is that the screen that should be showing after the u is pressed and it gets reconnected to the usb?	05:57
possomfat	is that right ali1234	05:58
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ali1234	no	05:59
ali1234	you have to turn the phone OFF	05:59
ali1234	completely al the way off	05:59
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ali1234	then press u, then plug in usb	06:00
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ali1234	it will turn on automatically	06:00
possomfat	take out the battery off, or is there a more ellegant way to turn completely off?	06:00
ali1234	press the power button then select "turn off"	06:00
possomfat	sorry for not being familair with the N900, just got one for this. Where is the power button	06:01
ali1234	its the small button in the middle of the top side	06:02
possomfat	tinny little sqare button on back long side of phone	06:02
possomfat	K, I just held it for about 20 seconds and herd a ding and the light went off, does this mean it is completely off?	06:02
possomfat	Appreciate you helping me	06:03
ali1234	yeah	06:03
ali1234	i think so	06:03
ali1234	if you just press it short there is a menu	06:03
possomfat	OK, so I think Im all the way off, Openning key board, holding down u key then plugging into USB, my fingers are crossed:)	06:03
possomfat	i see nokia on the screen but it is dark, can i let go of u key at this stage?	06:05
ali1234	yes	06:05
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possomfat	OK, now just type what you showed me? Do I need to be in any special directory	06:05
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ali1234	you need to be in the directory with the kernel	06:05
possomfat	what the kernel file name?	06:06
ali1234	don't know	06:06
ali1234	it will have zImage or vmlinuz in the name	06:06
ali1234	and be about 1.5mb	06:06
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possomfat	can not find the kernel file	06:14
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possomfat	I see two possible files that I downloaded, don't know if either is it. Image loaded to microSD wasmeego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.16.20100824.1-mmcblk0p.raw	06:17
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possomfat	I have meego-handset-arm7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1-vmlinuz-2.6.35-11.2-n900, is this the kernel file? Do I need to unpack it or was it unpacked when I downloaded it?	06:20
ali1234	yes that is the kernel	06:20
ali1234	it is not packed	06:21
possomfat	so in your command line do I need to type this file name or just be in the directory when I type the flash command?	06:21
ali1234	put in the file name	06:21
ali1234	instead of kernel.img	06:21
possomfat	Got it!	06:21
possomfat	Ali1234: Got this error - flasher-3.5: command not found	06:25
possomfat	guess I need to install it. Do you know where to find it?	06:26
ali1234	same place you got the kernel and rootfs	06:26
possomfat	just for my understanding is the rootfs file .raw we put on the microSD?	06:26
ali1234	yes	06:26
ali1234	http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/tools/flasher	06:27
possomfat	Gee I feel smarter already Ali1234, I might be starting to understand this a bit:)	06:27
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possomfat	Ali1234: I went to the link but did not see a Fedora 12 download - a bunch of other Linux flavors. Do you know which one I should use with Fedora?	06:31
ali1234	the tar.gz one	06:32
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possomfat	My Oh My this process is seriously tedious:) Not much has changed in the land of Linux since Berkley times. Every thing requires man manual steps:)	06:44
swc\|666	possomfat, haha awesome nick	06:45
swc\|666	possomfat, from WA?	06:46
possomfat	Ali1234, I appreciate all your help here getting me up to speed. I know this question will bug you but I'm running out of time. I've downloaded the flash tar ball and expanded it. I see the flash-3.5 file but it is still not command line recognized. What do I need to do in Linux to have it be recognized when I'm in another directory	06:46
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possomfat	Yes from WA. U?	06:46
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swc\|666	possomfat, yep seattle	06:47
possomfat	Kirkland	06:47
swc\|666	haha niice! i used to work in kirkland	06:47
swc\|666	i'm on beacon hill at the moment . .about to move to issaquah soon	06:47
possomfat	I used to work in Seattle:)	06:47
possomfat	I like Issaquah	06:48
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possomfat	Ali1234: U still there, don't leave me OB1	06:48
possomfat	Ali1234: UR my only Hope:)	06:49
possomfat	swc\|666: Looks like Ali's gone, do you know how to hook up flash-3.5 so it is recognized by the command line borne shell? I'm using Fedora	06:50
swc\|666	yeah put it in $PATH	06:51
possomfat	no magic huh:)	06:51
swc\|666	ln -s /path/to/flasher-3.5 /usr/local/bin/	06:51
swc\|666	echo $PATH to see where u can put it .. no magic required :)	06:51
possomfat	K let me try it	06:52
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possomfat	so if it is in my home directory i'd type $ ln -s ./maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2/flasher-3.5 /user/local/bin/ - Is this right or do I need to abs the path?	06:58
swc\|666	/usr/local/bin/	06:58
swc\|666	do this	06:58
swc\|666	possomfat, paste the output of: echo $PATH	06:59
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possomfat	past it where?	06:59
swc\|666	here	07:00
possomfat	hello - /usr/lib/qt-3.3/bin:/usr/kerberos/sbin:/usr/kerberos/bin:/usr/lib/ccache:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/home/mark/bin	07:00
possomfat	like that?	07:01
swc\|666	yeah	07:01
swc\|666	so...	07:01
swc\|666	ln -s ./maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2/flasher-3.5 /usr/local/bin/	07:01
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possomfat	I cut and pasted that line and ran it. Said it added it. In another shell I typed it and it still can't find it. Do I need to open a new shell or did I screw something up?	07:04
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possomfat	swc:666 - tried doing it again still no love here is the output ln: creating symbolic link `/usr/local/bin/flasher-3.5': File exists [mark@dell-e1505 ~]$ flasher-3.5 bash: flasher-3.5: command not found	07:11
possomfat	ideas?	07:11
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possomfat	Just abs pathed it. It worked Meego booting on N900, Hurray, I counted 2,237 steps. Not bad:)	07:19
possomfat	Thanks for the help!!!	07:19
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possomfat	Help, Anyone know why the screen just suddenly locked on the N900 Mego load? Anyone know how to unlock the screen on the Meego N900?	07:22
possomfat	Go it	07:22
swc\|666	possomfat, sorry was afk	07:25
possomfat	Got it thanks for the help Ali & SWC	07:28
possomfat	swc: what phone are u using N900 or AAVA?	07:28
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swc\|666	possomfat, N900	07:44
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Stskeeps	morn FatalSaint	08:26
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FatalSaint	Eve Skeeps	08:34
FatalSaint	I just lost all my data.. not happy :(	08:34
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Stskeeps	:(	08:35
Stskeeps	that's why you take backup :P	08:35
Stskeeps	or learn how to	08:35
FatalSaint	Didn't have the space. Finally got a new 1TB drive and setup RAID with my 500GB. Had my data moved to the second of the 1TB drive while I set it up. Manage to lose the data before copying it back over to the new raid. Fail.	08:36
FatalSaint	second half*	08:36
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Stskeeps	ah :P	08:36
johnx	ouch	08:36
FatalSaint	yeah. computer locked up while I was resizing the partitions. Now it's lost in neverland. I'm hoping gpart finds it	08:37
FatalSaint	so.. also should have kept a fdisk -l output somewhere too if I was smart	08:37
hena	http://funnyxd.com/funnystuff/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/did_you_backup.gif	08:37
FatalSaint	rofl	08:38
FatalSaint	thanks.. needed that one.	08:38
hena	np ;)	08:38
johnx	FatalSaint, the thing you want is testdisk	08:38
johnx	saved my bacon	08:38
FatalSaint	yeah .. was going to try that next if gpart fails	08:38
johnx	(and my files)	08:38
FatalSaint	it's taking so damn long to scan though I'll likely have to go to bed and check it in the morning	08:39
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johnx	such is the way with recovery stuff	08:39
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FatalSaint	True.. especially with drives this large	08:40
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johnx	I'm digging through a totally corrupted HFS+ partition digging up individual files as we speak	08:41
johnx	mind numbing	08:41
FatalSaint	Really not looking forward, if I have to, to making a disc image and parsing through it with autopsy or something.. 300GB+ of data.. just not worth it	08:42
johnx	yeah...apparently what I'm digging for is considered 'business critical'	08:43
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FatalSaint	hah.. hope you're getting a pretty penny for it :)	08:43
johnx	part of the sysadmin gig, but hours logged are hours logged. at this rate I won't even go in on friday :>	08:44
FatalSaint	lol	08:44
FatalSaint	comp time ftw	08:44
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ruckuus	hello everyone	09:48
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ruckuus	I'd like to know where is libgnome-control-center-extension exist on major Linux distribution	09:48
ruckuus	is it MeeGo specific?	09:49
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hrw	morning	10:50
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Myrtti	yawn	10:57
Myrtti	moin	10:57
Stskeeps	moin	10:57
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RST38h	Moo-Myrtti	10:58
Myrtti	Moo-o	10:59
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ISI	HELLO FLORIAN	11:31
florian	good morning	11:32
ISI	BUT ITS AFTERNOON HERE IN PAKISTAN HAHAHA	11:32
Stskeeps	ISI: please click your caps lock button	11:32
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ISI	hello stskeeps	11:33
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ISI	how do you do florian	11:33
ISI	heyyyyyyyyyyy	11:34
florian	ISI: we have ugt here I assume :)	11:34
ISI	from whre you belong florian	11:36
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ISI	hello xnt14	11:39
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niala	morning'	11:58
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Stskeeps	morn	11:58
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Stskeeps	morn andre__	12:05
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andre__	heja!	12:07
RST38h	ehlo andre	12:07
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javiF	hi	12:59
javiF	is it possible to get wlan working inside the SDK ?	13:00
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javiF	Im having problems in both ways, chroot and qemu	13:00
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vlj	in OBS, what is the macro aliasing /etc/init.d/	14:50
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vlj	?	14:50
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vlj	ali1234: did you manage to get a working non sse3 meego ?	14:54
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vlj	vgrade: ping	16:17
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RiverZhou	Is there anybody run n900's meego ux on qemu?	16:41
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* CosmoHill returns		16:49
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vgrade1	Vlj, hi	16:53
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* mutoga ♪ Au café du canal (VOF..Peter p Père hé!! ♪ /!\		17:01
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vlj	vgrade: I've written a little dkms config file for emgd that should build emgd kernel module	17:08
vlj	vgrade: however I don't know where to put all userspace binary blob...do you know where they should go ?	17:09
vlj	(with dkms no need for a specific kernel)	17:09
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vgrade1	Vlj, if you checjoit	18:18
vgrade1	If you checkout the early joggler ks files on jogglerwiki,there is scrips im the post to copy he files	18:19
vgrade1	Im on nrx	18:19
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vgrade1	Im on nexus shopping so cant give you an exact link, stskeeps can prob help	18:20
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* peb is gone. Gone since Wed Sep 1 11:44:00 2010		18:27
vgrade1	http://gitorious.org/mer/meego-joggler-ks/blobs/master/base-joggler.ks	18:29
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vlj	thx	18:36
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Stskeeps	DawnFoster: is the TSG tonight still on?	18:49
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DawnFoster	stskeeps: I wish I knew the answer to that question :)	18:49
Stskeeps	hehe :) figured as much	18:50
DawnFoster	I've been trying to confirm an agenda with Imad / Valtteri since last week	18:50
DawnFoster	still trying	18:50
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Stskeeps	good luck then :)	18:50
* Stskeeps gets back to food		18:50
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ali1234	hmmmm i just realised something	19:11
ali1234	i can disable atags on u-boot, then it will leave the env alone	19:12
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CosmoHill	Hello :)	19:18
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CosmoHill	I really need to disable grammar checking on Adium	19:24
DawnFoster	stskeeps: the TSG is on!	19:25
Stskeeps	DawnFoster: yay	19:25
CosmoHill	in 2 and a half hours?	19:25
DawnFoster	yes	19:25
CosmoHill	yay	19:25
DawnFoster	19:00 UTC	19:25
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DawnFoster	short agenda: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings#Next_TSG_meeting	19:26
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CosmoHill	that is short	19:26
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CosmoHill	that's really just one and a half items	19:26
DawnFoster	we had other items, but lots of people are still on vacation	19:26
DawnFoster	none of the presenters were available	19:26
Stskeeps	well, we can always go for a relaxing talk with whoever's available when we're out of time :P	19:27
DawnFoster	with summer about over, the TSG meeting should be more regular & with meaty agendas	19:27
DawnFoster	stskeeps: lots of time for Q&A :)	19:27
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lcuk	does the netbook image support widgets?	19:38
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DawnFoster	stskeeps: well, it's the first of the month and I'm starting to gather my metrics :)	19:59
Stskeeps	DawnFoster: putting up postit to get it done then :)	20:00
DawnFoster	stskeeps: no hurry at all - whenever you get a chance it would be great to have the IRC data :)	20:00
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DawnFoster	stskeeps: is your todo list postit based?	20:01
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Stskeeps	DawnFoster: i should really return to GTD	20:02
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DawnFoster	I use Hiveminder - simple, web-based to do list that I can access from any device	20:03
Stskeeps	i wonder if i should be worried that bugs.meego.com functions as my work todo list at the moment..	20:04
Stskeeps	and looks like a cool tool (hiveminder)	20:05
* Stskeeps bookmarks		20:05
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DawnFoster	stskeeps: I struggled with finding a task list that was simple but had decent prioritization & tagging. I tried about a dozen before landing in Hiveminder	20:06
Stskeeps	i guess my wife would appreciate the 'share task' feature :P	20:08
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DawnFoster	she might appreciate it until you start giving her tasks :)	20:10
DawnFoster	she might like giving you tasks - take out the trash, clean the garage	20:11
Stskeeps	hehe	20:11
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RhymeswAlbert	#join #meego-meeting	20:11
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CosmoHill	RhymeswAlbert: damn you	20:33
CosmoHill	you made me think the meeting had already started	20:34
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Stskeeps	DawnFoster: how many people was it we were hoping for, for meego conference?	20:47
DawnFoster	600 max	20:47
Stskeeps	k	20:47
DawnFoster	we're doing pretty well - 200 people before we've even announced the program content :)	20:48
* CosmoHill shakes fist at IRC		20:48
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DawnFoster	The TSG starts in 30 minutes in #meego-meeting (friendly reminder): http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings	21:30
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Santer	hi, has anyone idea how to share internet via joikuspot to laptop which is running on meego? joikuspot access point isn't listed into wlan-list by default...	21:57
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lbt	not much for the TSG tonight then?	22:09
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DawnFoster	lbt: light agenda	22:09
CosmoHill	I missed the start	22:09
DawnFoster	half the world (including many presenters are still on vacation)	22:09
lbt	DawnFoster: I'm sure you can find something to keep them busy....	22:10
DawnFoster	lbt: quim's doing most of the work as presenter anyway	22:10
DawnFoster	and we have lots of time for questions at the end	22:10
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lbt	so basically "see qgil for T-shirts" :)	22:13
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Texrat	;) lbt	22:13
lbt	DawnFoster: you need a swag budget too! .... I'm thinking community ice-cream	22:13
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DawnFoster	lbt: you and your ice cream insert eye roll	22:14
* lbt needs pudding...		22:14
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lbt	hmmm wondering what the scope of "IT Infrastructure" is... maybe better to ask what lies outside it?	22:15
* CosmoHill pokes lbt in the stomach		22:15
CosmoHill	no you don't	22:15
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CosmoHill	I don\t think I've paid any interest to the meeting so far	22:17
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CosmoHill	yay stickers	22:18
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CosmoHill	i see lcuk agrees	22:19
* lbt still doesn't have a T-shirt... :(		22:19
lcuk	indeed CosmoHill they are rare	22:19
CosmoHill	we need to get you one quickly lbt, summer is almost over	22:19
lcuk	did any actually get shipped over this side lol	22:19
lbt	DawnFoster: can you ship some T-shirts to Hel?	22:19
CosmoHill	via england :)	22:19
timoph	to tampere	22:19
CosmoHill	I have a G.Skillz sticker on my laptop :)	22:20
CosmoHill	it's only a matter of time before it becomes a structural necessity	22:20
DawnFoster	lbt: I think we sent a bunch to helsinki recently	22:20
CosmoHill	wow I spelt necessity first time \o/	22:20
DawnFoster	also, we'll have one for every conference attendee	22:20
Texrat	I'm designing stickers too :D	22:21
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CosmoHill	I wonder if I have some sticker paper for the printer	22:21
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timoph	Texrat: send some my way :)	22:22
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lcuk	Texrat, i have a point to make about those i will raise at further questions	22:24
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Texrat	sure timoph, and ok lcuk	22:25
Texrat	currently in addition to custom avatars I am working on charcters for regional meetups, like qgil's SF Bay and my DFW groups	22:25
timoph	thx. my MeeGo netbook is currently only decorated with a kde sticker :)	22:26
* lbt has his avatar		22:26
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Texrat	my ultimate goal for characters is a community swag shop where anyone can submit designs... like cafepress, et al	22:29
Texrat	for caps, teeshirts, etc	22:29
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* timoph likes the idea		22:29
lcuk	Texrat, you could wait and bring this up in a mo :P	22:30
Texrat	lcuk ?	22:30
Texrat	I rarely ge tto attend these... had to squeeze this in	22:30
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timoph	hmmh. I could try to get some posters done when I have the time	22:31
Texrat	cool timoph	22:31
Texrat	now that we have crossed a hurdle on grassroots campaigns, we can start doing something	22:31
timoph	yep	22:32
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lbt	Texrat: you make new meegons?	22:35
auke	mine is: http://crashdb.meego.com/theme/images/meego-crash-stats.png :)	22:38
DawnFoster	auke: he's my personal favorite	22:38
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Texrat	yes lbt	22:38
lcuk	heh	22:38
lbt	auke: http://en.gravatar.com/userimage/8175163/3570dcab74ec90342795ac542b85c05a.png	22:38
Texrat	custom avatars: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1134	22:38
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Texrat	I am also looking into a generator as I said in meeting	22:39
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Texrat	I'll bet I can code that in asp.net /me ducks from tomatoes	22:39
lbt	Texrat: so... could you do a meegon argentine tango dancer?	22:39
Texrat	easily lbt	22:39
Texrat	check out the unicycle character I did	22:40
pupnik	hehe	22:40
pupnik	lol @ wizard	22:40
pupnik	nice work Texrat	22:40
Texrat	http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=8013&postcount=68	22:40
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Texrat	ty pupnik	22:41
lbt	heh :)	22:41
Texrat	I will be putting all of them on a wiki page	22:41
pupnik	hahah! troll is hilarious	22:42
Texrat	:)	22:42
pupnik	http://meego.com/sites/all/files/users/u945/watkin5.png	22:42
Texrat	I'm just warming up	22:42
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auke	lol no nsfw meegons pls :)	22:43
lcuk	why not	22:43
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auke	Texrat: can you redo mine? somehow it looks terrible on the meego website	22:44
auke	Texrat: http://meego.com/sites/all/files/imagecache/user_pics/user_pics/picture-1562.jpg	22:44
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lcuk	auke, ahh that looks like jpeg compression	22:45
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auke	yeah	22:45
qgil_	I need to get used to hang around here (this is the voice of a former IRC junkie reluctant to approach this peculiar pleasure)	22:45
auke	qgil_: welcome back to the dark side ;)	22:45
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sivang	qgil_: you were an IRC juknie ?	22:45
timoph	resistance is futile	22:45
sivang	heh	22:45
qgil_	oh yeah, usual case of productivity affected by chat, long hours at night and all that stuff	22:46
Texrat	sure auke, that's the same as for stskeeps! I have that on my agenda	22:46
lbt	qgil_: we should form IA	22:46
lbt	Stskeeps gets forcibly enrolled!	22:46
Texrat	I tend to sit down and do these in batches	22:46
sivang	can aybody of the community have a meegon?	22:46
Stskeeps	what, i actually missed a TSG meeting for once to sit and review presentations, i'm in recovery ;)	22:46
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Texrat	of course sivang	22:47
sivang	nice	22:47
lcuk	qgil_, i discovered something completely odd the other day. an irc channel that also has video stream and text to speech conversion. having it on and getting on with other work with just background people talking	22:47
qgil_	so maybe you have heard the news about MeeGo marketing & the proposal just approved http://wiki.meego.com/Talk:Community_Office	22:47
sivang	can I please have a pony, hrm a meegon then? :)	22:47
Texrat	I guess we have a name for them now :D	22:47
lcuk	mind you, its like being at a stephen hawking convention	22:47
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Texrat	I will make "meegon" the wiki page title	22:47
lbt	Texrat: names are good :D	22:47
frals	Texrat: i want one!	22:47
lcuk	texrat will explode	22:48
sivang	heh	22:48
lcuk	perhaps texrat a simple wiki queue would be good	22:48
lcuk	with nicknames and current avatars	22:48
Texrat	sivang, please use the request theread so I can keep track: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1134	22:48
lcuk	and then others can make them also	22:48
lcuk	?	22:48
qgil_	You see the Marketing section and you see the subsections proposed	22:48
sivang	what's up with all this activity on the channel now? was thre a meeting I missed ?	22:48
Texrat	right, lbt, in the plans	22:48
lbt	are they all svg Texrat?	22:48
Texrat	yes, svg to png	22:48
lcuk	sivang, the meego TSG meeting occurs in #meego-meeting	22:49
Texrat	lcuk, all artists welcome!	22:49
qgil_	we need to come up with basic goals, strategy, actions and teams to implement it	22:49
qgil_	the usual stuff	22:49
lcuk	sure Texrat but people are just shouting out names	22:49
Texrat	use the thread :p	22:49
Texrat	damn IRC and email junkies... heh	22:49
maclaver	A stupid question, but what are we marketing, the MeeGo platform, the MeeGo project, or the MeeGo ecosystem? (Or all 3 - world domination is the goal)	22:49
Texrat	a pox upon you all	22:50
lbt	qgil_: so do we have some high level statements	22:50
pupnik	What are the big marketing sales-pitch points used or potentially useful to sell MeeGo to existing developers?	22:50
qgil_	world domination is the goal but we won't do it alone here	22:50
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lbt	vision, goal type stuff?	22:50
sivang	lcuk: yes, and normally after there's a bit more chatter than usual in #meego	22:50
lcuk	sivang, someone mentioned cute cartoons	22:50
qgil_	MeeGo needs to be the clear choice for anybody willing to ship a MeeGo product and anybody willing to buy a mobile product	22:51
qgil_	now, we need to see what steps are needed in order to get there	22:51
qgil_	see what are the steps that marketing and advocacy can sove directkly	22:51
Texrat	here's an example of what I was doing for maemo before qgil put the MeeGo brakes on ;) -- http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/2010/01/09/maemo-community-outreach-dallas-open-source-saturday/	22:51
qgil_	and seeing what are the steps where we marketing and advocate people can help the rest (platform developers, app developers, users, ODMs, etc	22:51
Texrat	I think that work can translate to MeeGo	22:51
sivang	ah world domination, this was once ubuntu's goal :)	22:52
lbt	qgil_: so I think we need some yeehaw stuff and some solid reality-level (eye watering) analysis	22:52
qgil_	I think having MeeGo as a default candidate for a new mobile product is a feasible goal - we have the elements in place	22:52
lbt	nod	22:53
qgil_	many things need to happen and plenty of them are not directly related to marketing, but still we can help and have our part of the responsibility of success (or defeat)	22:53
pupnik	are other manufacturers being invited to the party? maybe to get some on board?	22:53
lbt	can I suggest we have "a third party perspective" section too?	22:53
qgil_	pupnik: providing the elements for a manufacturer for being interested, sell the idea internally and get involved is a big part of the deal	22:54
sivang	pupnik: whichi party?	22:54
odin_	what is the status of the OBS upgrade ?	22:54
lbt	qgil_: I personally feel that we need to discuss/state where we are; where others are and what deltas exist	22:54
qgil_	lbt: let's fill the current sections without creating a new one, and then let's spin off whatever efforts from the strong basis we will ave	22:55
qgil_	I'm a bit tired of empty structures, honestly	22:55
pupnik	ty for mentioning that	22:55
lbt	OK ... but I don't feel I know how we compare to our competition... I don't have time to monitor them	22:55
qgil_	I'm even tired of discussing so much about structures, actually ;)	22:55
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lbt	so... a "mobile platform landscape" ?	22:56
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qgil_	"Competitive intelligence"? It's a consequence, not a cause: if we want great marketing we need to know where are we strong and where are our weaknesses	22:57
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lbt	agreed	22:57
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qgil_	first steps we should take within two weeks: your thoughts right now?	22:58
qgil_	the TSG wants to see a ToDo list, that's one	22:58
sivang	lbt: I don't know off had what this discussion is around, but could this related? http://conference2010.meego.com/session/creating-first-choice-open-source-mobile-platform-learning-mistakes-past-and-beyond	22:58
maclaver	Our weaknesses can be brush over for a while, but to fix them we would need to do some development.	22:58
lbt	do some introspection	22:58
lbt	look at the main things meego has	22:59
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lbt	and assess each of them	22:59
qgil_	maclaver: of course. Marketing helps development focusing on the stuff that matters and also helps covering the present time with the best we have	22:59
lbt	ie not much point having a "Linux is cool" campaign for meego devs...	22:59
qgil_	ok, simpler question: what do you think are the current blockers for good MeeGo marketing?	22:59
lbt	sivang: yes	22:59
lbt	sivang: exactly it	23:00
Texrat	qgil many thanks for championing the community marketing so strongly	23:00
CosmoHill	note to self: stop assuming people know basic linux stuff	23:00
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Texrat	that kept me from giving up on it ;)	23:00
qgil_	sivang: this session proposal is interesting	23:00
* thiago_home realises this was TSG-meeting time		23:00
thiago_home	N900 didn't ring...	23:00
sivang	timeless_mbp also felt this is very important and joined my proposal, we hope to get some concrete things from it	23:00
Texrat	lol thiago_home	23:01
thiago_home	(because Exchange removed the alarm)	23:01
sivang	qgil_: thanks	23:01
thiago_home	so I blame Microsoft :-)	23:01
Texrat	thiago_home we all do	23:01
qgil_	ok, simpler question: what do you think are the current blockers for good MeeGo marketing? [12:59] <lbt> sivang: yes	23:01
* timeless_mbp nods		23:01
sivang	qgil_: I've been thinking about this since day 0 of MeeGo, having other things in perspective and learning from past products and servics	23:01
timeless_mbp	qgil_: has anything meego marketing related been published?	23:02
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maclaver	thiago: It's not a bug it's a feature...	23:02
lbt	qgil_: lack of clear messages	23:02
Texrat	qgil are you including grassroots in that question?	23:02
lbt	"we're the best" .... uh huh....	23:02
qgil_	timeless_mbp: yes, but your question already points to a problem ;)	23:02
thiago_home	maclaver: like the Nokia server always giving "Exchange server is down for maintenance" ?	23:02
sivang	qgil_: true	23:02
timeless_mbp	qgil_: from my perspective, meego.com is a bit of a problem	23:02
CosmoHill	thiago_home: summery of the meeting: something was said about stickers and t-shirts	23:02
timeless_mbp	http://meego.com/	23:02
qgil_	Texrat: sure, grassroots is something that could be strong in MeeGo	23:02
timeless_mbp	MeeGo blog	23:02
timeless_mbp	Latest news from the team	23:02
qgil_	specially when the grassroots ar happy and invest their energies promoting instead of fighting among themselves ;)	23:03
Texrat	I've come up with a marketing slogan: "Do You MeeGo?"	23:03
timeless_mbp	MeeGo Handset Project Day 1 is Here	23:03
timeless_mbp	Submitted by valhalla on 30 June, 2010 - 08:10	23:03
lbt	qgil_: who are we addressing and, for each who, what's the message?	23:03
timeless_mbp	surely something from June 30 isn't the latest news you can have?	23:03
sivang	where are the users in all of this?	23:03
timeless_mbp	that's the "above the fold" news	23:03
* thiago_home has 2 t-shirts already		23:03
timeless_mbp	it reminds me of dead content sites	23:03
* sivang wants a t-shirt as well		23:03
qgil_	timeless_mbp: yes, managing the content of meego.com is one of the areas of the marketing team and yes, requires more attention	23:04
possomfat_	I've been watching this exchange for a few minutes and I just can't stay quite anymore, I want Meego to work:)	23:04
timeless_mbp	qgil_: i'd suggest that prime spot be replaced w/ a spot for the meego conference	23:04
possomfat_	I know the rest of the platforms pretty well	23:04
timeless_mbp	i'm aware there's a picture of the conf above	23:04
timeless_mbp	but that's content free	23:04
sivang	the web site should have a demo .flv in the center part, demostrating user enablement capability of some sort	23:04
* timeless_mbp doesn't read pictures		23:04
lbt	possomfat_: useful	23:04
possomfat_	The biggest challenge that meego has is yacc	23:04
lbt	possomfat_: less useful	23:05
possomfat_	Yet another c compiler, analogy	23:05
lbt	:)	23:05
qgil_	lbt: about target audiences a starting point could be http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html	23:05
timeless_mbp	qgil_: but seriously, what have you guys done?	23:05
possomfat_	Meego has to come up with a clear uniquess and can't just be another device platform	23:05
sivang	qgil_: so this is a marketing discussion ?:)	23:05
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timeless_mbp	let's pretend i actually did see your marketing (point me to it)	23:05
timeless_mbp	oh, and http://wiki.meego.com/Events is taking forever to load	23:06
qgil_	timeless_mbp: shirts, stickers, articles in magazines, top spots in main conferences...	23:06
possomfat_	there is way to much momentum for the iphone and android platforms to just be another one	23:06
pupnik	this is probably an unwelcome old point, but it's quite a hinderance to getting acquainted with meego to not be able to run the GUI in some kind of fallback mode (e.g. don't do transitions or wipes, but transition in one screen update)	23:06
timeless_mbp	qgil_: so please tell someone that they need better web servers for wiki.	23:06
pupnik	thus removing opengl2 requirement	23:06
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lbt	possomfat_: to a degree... OTOH these things are complex and the market is fluid.	23:07
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timeless_mbp	Safari can’t open the page “http://wiki.meego.com/Events” because the server where this page is located isn’t responding.	23:07
lbt	qgil_: who are the decision makers in the meego market?	23:07
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timeless_mbp	pupnik: that's not a marketing thing	23:07
timeless_mbp	marketing would offer you a flash video or flash tour of the product	23:07
timeless_mbp	which you could run anywhere	23:07
possomfat_	The marketing focus should be there, what makes meego unique and why do people want to use it? On an end user, hardware provider and carrier basis.	23:07
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timeless_mbp	you're talking about SDK or something	23:07
lbt	timeless_mbp: don't conflate marketing and advertising	23:07
qgil_	tip: don't click to links in webchat mode	23:07
lbt	grin	23:08
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timeless_mbp	qgil_: ouch	23:08
sivang	lbt: we need to show how the better features (multi tasking and more) make MeeGo superior to other platforms without mentioning names.	23:08
lbt	marketing addresses business and environmental analysis... not glitz	23:08
qgil_	guys, this is why we need to set the basics: goals, audiences, priorities	23:08
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timeless_mbp	qgil_: i'd argue you should start from audiences	23:09
possomfat_	Yes, the pure linux is a good strength, also need to make easy app development a strength leveraging QT and more	23:09
qgil_	OpenGL required yes or not depends on the project strategy and whether this factor contributes to the success of the platform or not	23:09
timeless_mbp	then goals, then priorities	23:09
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lbt	a decent strategic assesment of platforms for a new device would certainly involve devs looking at code amongst many other things	23:09
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lbt	and cost of feature implementation is a biggy	23:09
timeless_mbp	lbt: you guys are more thinking bus-dev than marketing imo :)	23:09
qgil_	timeless_mbp: we can also do us a favour avoiding discussions about the little detals when there is so much to do :)	23:09
lbt	timeless_mbp: bus-dev is one of our important targets	23:09
qgil_	we need basically to iterate and iterate	23:10
lbt	if not the only target!	23:10
possomfat_	I also think that meego focusing on some unique hard problems that put them ahead of the market is a must. Me too features and capabilities wont get there. Got to have something that is unique and can become a killer first to market feature	23:10
timeless_mbp	qgil_: i'm going to vacation vacation vacation :)	23:10
lbt	to be reached by other targets timeless_mbp	23:10
sivang	lbt: first you need users to look at features, before devs	23:10
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lbt	sivang: of course... just defending pupnik to a small degree	23:10
timeless_mbp	first to market ins't a requirement	23:10
sivang	lbt: :)	23:10
timeless_mbp	apple generally doesn't do first to market	23:11
timeless_mbp	and it can still win	23:11
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maclaver	We can start with the goal (world domination?) and audiences, and iterate from there. We could also work on competitive analysis of MeeGo versus other platforms along categories.	23:11
timeless_mbp	microsoft also doesn't tend to do first to market	23:11
timeless_mbp	and it still wins	23:11
possomfat_	What, Apple lives on first to market	23:11
timeless_mbp	nah	23:11
thiago_home	timeless_mbp: MS isn't anywhere near winning on the mobile segment	23:11
qgil_	maclaver: yeah - for instance a basic question is: how to make MeeGo the default candidate for device manufacturers and operators?	23:11
timeless_mbp	apple isn't the first to introduce component X	23:11
qgil_	convince them and millions will follow	23:11
thiago_home	so far, WP7S is vapourware	23:11
timeless_mbp	apple tends to be the first to get set of components A, B, C working well	23:12
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sivang	thiago_home: winning in other areas,with poor qualit on first to market	23:12
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timeless_mbp	but that isn't first to market	23:12
timeless_mbp	it's first to market w/ a compelling product	23:12
maclaver	qgil: Can I add to that, how to MeeGo the default candidate for application developers too?	23:12
lbt	qgil_: agreed ... but which mfgs?	23:12
lbt	one shot chinese devices?	23:12
possomfat_	Video Chat, a real web browser, visual voice mail ... and the list goes on and on. Yes someone did them first but they did take off until they were done right	23:12
sivang	timeless_mbp++	23:12
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lbt	possomfat_: that'll be the definition of not first to market then?	23:13
timeless_mbp	thiago: my point is in general	23:13
timeless_mbp	not specifically in mobile	23:13
timeless_mbp	first to market is probably nokia	23:13
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timeless_mbp	and that's a losing winner	23:13
qgil_	maclaver: application developers will go for devices that a) sell a lot and b) are used by those developers with pleasure	23:13
timeless_mbp	totally useless	23:13
thiago_home	not sure I agree..	23:13
possomfat_	Get your dev hat off, ask anyone on the street and they will tell you that Apple did it	23:13
thiago_home	Nokia wasn't first to market on these new smartphones	23:13
timeless_mbp	and by first to market, i mean first to market 10-15 years ago, not today	23:13
pupnik	qgil_: what do the device mfgrs and operators want? I assume they want to brand their own UX	23:13
timeless_mbp	no, i'm not talking about new smartphones	23:14
thiago_home	Nokia was first to market on touch, but didn't capitalise on it	23:14
timeless_mbp	i'm talking about ancient phones :)	23:14
thiago_home	that's ancient history, not really relevant	23:14
timeless_mbp	they were still in the "mobile segment" to use your phrase :)	23:14
lbt	these arguments perhaps aren't helping :)	23:14
thiago_home	unless MeeGo starts catering for feature-phones	23:14
pupnik	thiago_home: meego needs to have a quick adoption path downward to cheaper phones	23:14
timeless_mbp	my point is that it's useless to just look at a 2 year window in one segment	23:14
timeless_mbp	so you have to be able to talk about successes in other market segments	23:15
thiago_home	pupnik: I can only say that the S40 death has been greatly exaggerated	23:15
qgil_	Another thought: even if you have a team within a company that is interested in MeeGo, nowadays that team will need to answer the question "But what is wrong with Android?" because this is the momentum now	23:15
thiago_home	those guys are nowhere dead	23:15
lbt	so meego is also about set top boxes	23:15
qgil_	how to help those guys winning the case inside their companies	23:15
timeless_mbp	apple isn't a success just because of what it did in the mobile segment	23:15
lbt	and diversity	23:15
lbt	how does that matter here?	23:15
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thiago_home	they ship more phones in a month than Android and iPhone have combined, so far	23:15
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lbt	can meego in your car, in your pocket, on your walls make a difference?	23:16
pupnik	thiago_home: yes but cheaper and more commoditized is where mobile smartphone is going - meego can either swim with that frontier or be relegated to botique niche	23:16
timeless_mbp	yeah, s40 is amazing if you look at unit volume	23:16
ali1234	i asked this before but... for the STBs... will there be a UX with EPG type functions, or will that be left up to the vendors?	23:16
lbt	and in your disposable camera	23:16
possomfat_	OK, we have to get real...look at phone sales market share by demographic.	23:16
thiago_home	pupnik: MeeGo is currently high-end-only	23:16
sivang	qgil_: market how meego is better in those terms to android, less java for example :)	23:16
possomfat_	Nokia is nowhere right now	23:16
possomfat_	This is why we need to get Meego right	23:16
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thiago_home	possomfat_: just the market leader in all segments...	23:16
timeless_mbp	sivang: android doesn't have java ™ ;-)	23:16
sivang	hah	23:16
possomfat_	We have to look at things with an open lens	23:17
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maclaver	Android is probably the more difficult competitor, more open than Apple, very strong hardward support, good tools, good services, and good application development possibilities.	23:17
* thiago_home agrees with maclaver		23:17
maclaver	(And users can programme with the AppInventor :-) )	23:17
thiago_home	Android is the competition	23:17
qgil_	another important thing in marketing, and in our work producing MeeGo marketing: say it simple	23:17
sivang	maclaver: right, so we can start by learning from it and seeing where we stand in its context	23:17
lbt	qgil_: that is what I meant by having advocacy to compare us with the competition	23:17
possomfat_	Nokia, is still the biggest mobile device company in the world but wont be for long if Meego Fails.	23:17
ali1234	or iow will i ever be able to replace my mythtv with meego?	23:17
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thiago_home	possomfat_: if MeeGo fails, Symbian fails and whatever S40 is doing fails?	23:17
kirma	for nokia, qt is relevant, especially with symbian as the platform. meego is only a part of the picture.	23:17
sivang	possomfat_: that's nonsense.	23:18
pupnik	thiago_home: and android is running on 60 euro tablet devices (worse than a 770 UX, but still)	23:18
possomfat_	Nokia, can nail it if they realize that the OS and Services matter as much if not more that the physical phone design now	23:18
timeless_mbp	possomfat_: sadly that's not how it will work	23:18
qgil_	all the little details are interesting and very useful... until the moment you can't sustain a point in simple terms	23:18
timeless_mbp	s40 has too much market for nokia to fail as fast as would be good for the world	23:18
thiago_home	pupnik: right. I agree MeeGo should run on lower devices. But we have to get it right on the high-end first.	23:18
possomfat_	Nokia has great phone design, by in large, N900 not included in that comment	23:18
lbt	qgil_: too much noise in here IMHO	23:18
possomfat_	Yes, high end is all that matter for market direction right now	23:19
maclaver	Marketing back to meego-meeting?	23:19
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timeless_mbp	qgil_: so, is your primary audience companies looking for platforms to ship or develop for?	23:19
qgil_	timeless_mbp: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html	23:19
possomfat_	Do you see Intel buying companies as fast as it can. Big shifts are happening and Apple and Android are making them happen. We have to realize this.	23:19
thiago_home	possomfat_: that is understood	23:20
possomfat_	Microsoft is not even a player in shaping what is happening in technology right now.	23:20
thiago_home	possomfat_: that was understood three years ago	23:20
kirma	android is doing things, but apple is actually stagnating.	23:20
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qgil_	possomfat_: please provide a single sentence useful for the MeeGo project to fight that	23:20
timeless_mbp	qgil_: in some ways, i'd suggest ignoring project contributors from a marketing perspective for a month	23:20
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timeless_mbp	you already have some people trying	23:20
pupnik	i dearly hope that it will be possible to disable transition animations and compositing	23:20
timeless_mbp	but you don't have a good group of people working to shepherd them in	23:20
possomfat_	Nokia, has to get this right or they will lose. They can not miss this or disastrous results will happen, a new phone leader will emerge	23:20
pupnik	and get basic widget functionality	23:20
qgil_	timeless_mbp: allow me to look beyond the next month :)	23:21
thiago_home	pupnik: right now, no. But for future versions possibly.	23:21
timeless_mbp	and until you get your first group of contributors integrated	23:21
timeless_mbp	it's a bad idea to recruit people who would quickly become disgruntled	23:21
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pupnik	thiago_home: you know where i'm going with that? lower-end devices, and meego development/testing in a VM (without opengl2)	23:21
Texrat	pupnik why not, Microsoft allows those options ;)	23:21
* lcuk reads scrollback from what looks like important stuff		23:21
timeless_mbp	qgil_: bah, why plan for a month from now when you can plan for this coming month now, and then plan for later later :)	23:21
thiago_home	pupnik: lower-end devices, sure. But like I said, not now.	23:21
lbt	lcuk: snr is about 0.05	23:22
timeless_mbp	(like after i get back from my vacation ;-)	23:22
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thiago_home	pupnik: and for testing, I'd rather do it outside a VM. Simulator, not emulator.	23:22
possomfat_	I hope your not referring to me as being disgruntled, I'm a huge meego opportunity fan and am putting resourses toward the objective. This is why I want it to work	23:22
sivang	timeless_mbp: hehe	23:22
timeless_mbp	qgil_: for app devs, i think marketing should be mostly around the MADE stuff	23:22
sivang	timeless_mbp: you were talking about reruiting contributors for marketing yes?	23:22
timeless_mbp	if possible	23:22
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pupnik	thiago_home: maybe it should be a priority - to let casual developers and otherwise-pressed-for-time developers quickly try compiling and running their stuff in some meego environment without dedicating a device to it	23:23
thiago_home	pupnik: SDK yes	23:23
qgil_	possomfat_: sorry for picking on you - it's just that we can see already a lot of ongoing discussion about how bad the situation is and etc	23:23
thiago_home	pupnik: I agree with you that is a priority	23:23
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thiago_home	pupnik: I disagree on the solution: VM	23:23
pupnik	ok	23:23
thiago_home	pupnik: we can do better	23:23
possomfat_	We need to not have beer goggles on here or blow smoke, huge opportunity and challenges are ahead and we are definately comming from behind. This is why Meego has to get out front.	23:23
pupnik	thiago_home: how ?	23:23
qgil_	In marketing teams, this is useful (to see people's perceptions) but to an extent it's more productive to come up with actions and results to change those perceptions	23:23
thiago_home	pupnik: why do you need a VM in the first place?	23:23
timeless_mbp	from memory, none of Apple, MS or Google rely on a VM for their simulators	23:24
maclaver	timeless_mbp: This depends on the availibility of the MADDE stuff for MeeGo, there are people working on this one - hopefully there will be a early version soon.	23:24
lbt	possomfat_: yes... and the 25th repetition of preaching to the choir adds precisely zero	23:24
thiago_home	pupnik: the cycle is: develop, test in simluator, continue developing	23:24
timeless_mbp	(heck, even Nokia's phone simulators don't seem to be vm's)	23:24
thiago_home	pupnik: then cross-compile to device, deploy on device and test again	23:24
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timeless_mbp	maclaver: yeah, sure	23:24
timeless_mbp	but it might make more sense to plan to do marketing based on the arrival of that	23:24
pupnik	ok run in a chroot/UML type environment, and talk to the host X-server?	23:24
timeless_mbp	and hold off on other marketing in the area until it arrives	23:24
possomfat_	OK, so how do we leverage Intel and Nokia to make Meego win against feirce competition	23:24
kirma	symbian SDKs also used to depend on a simulator, and... well, simulators are not the same thing as emulators, mostly due to differences in architectures	23:25
sivang	qgil_: the situation is not bad, we just need redirection and clear goals in context :)	23:25
maclaver	timeless_mbp: This is one of the things we would have to consider once we have compared MeeGo with the other platforms.	23:25
qgil_	possomfat_: first of all making the success depending of more companies than Intel and Nokia	23:25
pupnik	put those little characters everywhere - esp texrat's	23:25
thiago_home	pupnik: no	23:25
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thiago_home	pupnik: simulator. Compile for native platform and run inside the simulator.	23:25
qgil_	MeeGo offers a possibility of involvement and control that no other mobile platform gives: Android, iOS, Windows etc	23:25
thiago_home	pupnik: there's no need for chroot or emulation of a processor.	23:25
possomfat_	Yes, I agree but it is a great start	23:26
lbt	well, to start with it'd help if we had some goals. And stopped talking about solutions for about 3 weeks	23:26
pupnik	ok i see. sounds good, ty thiago_home	23:26
possomfat_	You need small companies like mine and many others	23:26
lbt	FFS what has a chroot got to do with marketing?	23:26
thiago_home	pupnik: it's the solution we're doing for Maemo & Symbian with the Nokia Qt SDK.	23:26
possomfat_	They have to believe in the vision and we have to make the vision a reality in short order	23:26
pupnik	yaay :)	23:26
maclaver	lbt: (We could always reverse engineer the goals from the solutoins - it might be surprising)	23:26
qgil_	ok, let me try to nail down a starting point. See http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html and tell me if there is a target missing or in the wrong priority	23:26
lbt	maclaver: it'll surprise some people !	23:26
sivang	thiago_home: as was the old s40 simulators , they were cool :)	23:27
thiago_home	sivang: there wasn't much to be simulated there :-)	23:27
sivang	thiago_home: hehe	23:27
* timoph goes to sleep (11:30pm @ .fi)		23:27
*** timoph is now known as timoph\|away		23:27
sivang	night timoph\|away	23:27
lcuk	thiago_home, sivang - there are nokia emulators runnable on meego/maemo?	23:27
pupnik	lbt, making it easy for developers to jump in to compiling and running their code is something that needs to be achieved, then marketed :)	23:27
lcuk	very serious question	23:27
lcuk	can I emulate a 3210?	23:28
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thiago_home	lcuk: I don't know of any emulators	23:28
timeless_mbp	qgil_: is that list of points ordered?	23:28
lbt	qgil_: I think we need some goals... eg meego on devices. Then identify influencers for that goal	23:28
maclaver	gqil: I would split the application developers into commercial operations and hobbyists - their goals are sufficiently different.	23:28
timeless_mbp	i claim point 1 should be after point 2	23:28
thiago_home	lcuk: if there's anything, it's Symbian Foundation and probably runs on Windows only...	23:28
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lcuk	thiago_home, - meant to run on device itself	23:28
qgil_	timeless_mbp: mmm actually not :)	23:28
lcuk	my n900 running a 3210 emulation	23:28
thiago_home	lcuk: device emulating device? never seen that.	23:28
maclaver	qgil: Otherwise this captures the audiences well.	23:28
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sivang	qgil_: who are those who are more likely to cause wide spread of the platform?	23:29
lcuk	thiago_home, http://liqbase.net/liq.20100830_nokia3210.png	23:29
qgil_	lbt I'm just trying to break this endless loop: if I ask about goals then someone aks what is the target	23:29
lcuk	a shim front end	23:29
lcuk	with an x40 or whatever backing	23:29
lcuk	s40	23:29
lbt	qgil_: are you missing consumers ?	23:29
lcuk	(whatever os it had)	23:29
qgil_	lbt: I wrote that email already so there is an starting point to iterate next to 'world domination'	23:29
sivang	timeless_mbp, qgil_ : app developers no?	23:29
lbt	nod	23:29
thiago_home	qgil_: apps, apps, apps	23:29
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lbt	thiago_home: marketing to an app is easy with gainroot...	23:30
thiago_home	qgil_: that means SDK, good API, easy to develop for, plenty of features	23:30
qgil_	lbt: consumers - I think we should leave the direct marketing to the vendors	23:30
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lbt	thiago_home: they are messages to devs	23:30
pupnik	very informative post there - everyone check out qgil's link http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html	23:30
sivang	documentation	23:30
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lcuk	thiago_home, get a nokia emulator and allow user to run any old nokia phone they want - there has to be thousands of apps ;)	23:30
lbt	thiago_home: we care about devs because they influence vendors	23:30
thiago_home	qgil_: and device loan program	23:30
qgil_	thiago_home: Application developers appears as one of the 4 primary targets	23:31
timeless_mbp	pupnik: is that site paying people kickbacks for referrals?	23:31
thiago_home	lcuk: of Java apps...	23:31
qgil_	all your points "belong" to that segment	23:31
lcuk	can even have clipon covers server	23:31
lcuk	service	23:31
timeless_mbp	seeing the same link once every 25 lines is annoying	23:31
sivang	lcuk: thso phones are everywhere	23:31
lbt	qgil_: true... but there is support and consistency of the underlying messages... we want consumer pull too... somehow	23:31
lcuk	sivang, where do i download one?	23:31
thiago_home	qgil_: what are the other segments?	23:31
qgil_	timeless_mbp: as annoying as getting the same question every 26 lines ;)	23:31
timeless_mbp	qgil_: there's a difference between one of and the	23:32
lcuk	and that is partly my point	23:32
timeless_mbp	app devs should be the primary	23:32
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lcuk	nokia phones are everywhere - why aren't they inside my n900 too!	23:32
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kirma	J2ME is hell for developers	23:32
timeless_mbp	which is something that i think most of the speakers here agree on	23:32
qgil_	thiago_home: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html :)	23:32
timeless_mbp	and getting agreement on anything from people here is rare	23:32
lcuk	"hey dawg, i heard you like phones...."	23:32
lbt	for the record timeless_mbp, I disagree	23:32
sivang	timeless_mbp++	23:32
pupnik	how much memory would a S60 'emulator' (runtime env) consume? :)	23:32
kirma	one can run microemulator or whatever on N900 for rudimentary J2ME support	23:32
thiago_home	qgil_: btw, device loaner, I wasn't kidding	23:32
lcuk	pupnik, since the devices didnt have much	23:33
qgil_	thiago_home: well, the MeeGo project as such has no devices	23:33
thiago_home	qgil_: we gave lots of N900s at the Maemo Summit last year :-)	23:33
lcuk	i would say not a great deal	23:33
thiago_home	hint hint	23:33
pupnik	lcuk: yeah, kind of tempting -- that idea innit?	23:33
lcuk	indeed	23:33
lcuk	hence me asking you and RST38h about emulators	23:33
qgil_	thiago_home: this is about MeGo marketing - we need to colaborate with companies but not organize the marketing these companies should do	23:33
thiago_home	not that I need one...	23:33
thiago_home	anyway, to your segments	23:34
thiago_home	Project contributors: open project first. Make everyone feel welcome.	23:34
lcuk	pupnik, i technically wouldnt mind if it was closed source	23:34
thiago_home	blogs, good articles	23:34
DawnFoster	wonders if qgil_ is still happy to be taking the lead on marketing :)	23:34
lcuk	ovi store selling nokia soft phones :P	23:34
lbt	DawnFoster: :D	23:34
qgil_	DawnFoster: do we has time still to swith?	23:34
thiago_home	a healthy and vibrant community attracts people	23:34
qgil_	do we have time still to switch I mean DawnFoster	23:34
DawnFoster	ha!	23:35
Texrat	oh come on qgil you know you love it	23:35
thiago_home	device / OS vendors: not so sure. This is more the job of Tom Miller.	23:35
pupnik	lcuk: i have found a lot of stuff to like on S60 (e71). i imagine a 'wine' like runtime environment could be a serious product for Nokia	23:35
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thiago_home	I think some people with nice business cards should approach companies with the advantages	23:35
thiago_home	companies love turn-key solutions	23:35
lcuk	pupnik, i am not even considering s60	23:35
qgil_	tom miller is a Nokia guy with not assigned role at the MeeGo project, Intel has similar role, other companies have similar role - we need to help them	23:35
lbt	thiago_home: which are?	23:35
lcuk	that has much higher requirements	23:35
thiago_home	qgil_: we put them together and they do that job	23:36
lcuk	but i would not rule it out either	23:36
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thiago_home	I've heard that with Android, LG/Samsung can have a device on the market in 6 months	23:36
qgil_	thiago_home: we need to be the "upstream" marketing, and then they "productize" our base adding whatever helps the marketing and business of each company	23:36
thiago_home	we need a list of things we can do like that, our benefits	23:36
timeless_mbp	thiago: i've heard nokia can get a product to market in 4 years :)	23:37
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thiago_home	qgil_: IMHO, these people should be doing the upstream marketing	23:37
lcuk	pupnik, and yes, opening up the entire range of back catalogue nokia has by emulating devices would give a kick factor to people - even if its a single fun phone they show to mates	23:37
kirma	thiago_home: and chinese companies with mediatek chipsets do that in, what it was, four to six weeks?	23:37
qgil_	thiago_home: this is nice and good in theory, but in practice it's difficult for them to detach their company affiliation and interests	23:37
lcuk	"look, this is the first commercial phone nokia ever sold, and it runs"	23:37
thiago_home	qgil_: for example, the Amino announcement on the blog today. That's not anywhere close to Nokia business. Why should Nokia be involved with Amino?	23:37
Texrat	good points lcuk and pupnik	23:37
thiago_home	it should because it helps MeeGo	23:37
thiago_home	qgil_: I don't want them to. I want them to come and say "I'm <insert big title> of Nokia, here's my friend from Intel, we're here to show you some interesting opportunities"	23:38
lcuk	pupnik, Texrat a couple of quid on ovi store to buy a new phone within a phone	23:38
thiago_home	"oh, btw, here's the contact of a consulting company for all your needs"	23:38
qgil_	thiago_home: of course, but for that to happen in a fair, effective and realistic way you need two things	23:39
kirma	thiago_home: with conservative suits? sounds like mormons :I	23:39
timeless_mbp	thiago: hrm, amino should have been in that front page spot on meego.com	23:39
thiago_home	timeless_mbp: oh yeah	23:39
qgil_	1. base MeeGo marketing strategy and materials - produced with the help and involvement with these marketing guys in the companies	23:39
sivang	thiago_home: isn' that what forum nokia does? consulting for development? they met with some isralei mobile startups when they were here last time.	23:39
lcuk	anyway, i am going back to #maemo for the evening :p	23:39
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timeless_mbp	thiago: that i had to find out from you here	23:39
lcuk	gnite all \o	23:39
thiago_home	qgil_: yes	23:39
timeless_mbp	and only because you happened to rant about it...	23:39
timeless_mbp	that sucks :)	23:39
qgil_	and b) a detachment between business negotiation and purely neutral MeeGo project	23:39
thiago_home	timeless_mbp: pfft. You don't have an RSS reader in one of those Mozilla apps? :-)	23:39
timeless_mbp	thiago: rss?	23:40
qgil_	otherwise the Intel-Nokia effective commercial team stops being so effective when e.g. the ARM camp suspects that these guys have something that we don't knoe etc etc	23:40
* timeless_mbp wonders what that is		23:40
* thiago_home loves people who count 1 and b		23:40
timeless_mbp	i use news.google.com	23:40
timeless_mbp	if it isn't in news.google.com, it clearly isn't improtant	23:40
thiago_home	qgil_: true, true	23:40
timeless_mbp	s/pro/por/	23:40
infobot	timeless_mbp meant: if it isn't in news.google.com, it clearly isn't important	23:40
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qgil_	this is why everybody needs to be able to get equally the basics from MeeGo, and then each company has its activities, alone and with other partners	23:40
thiago_home	qgil_: but that's why we need to get some of the ARM-camp companies onboard too	23:40
thiago_home	qgil_: the same way that we need other ODMs	23:40
sivang	thiago_home: what's amino?	23:41
timeless_mbp	sivang: google	23:41
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pupnik	sharing the source is a good way to show that nothing is being coded behind anyone's back	23:41
qgil_	thiago_home: DawnFoster just said in the TSG meeting that TI is going to be one of the sponsors of the MeeGo conference	23:41
timeless_mbp	+meego	23:41
* sivang googles		23:41
qgil_	in the call for session proposals I saw submissions from other ARM players as well	23:41
thiago_home	qgil_: good, I didn't know if that was public :-)	23:41
qgil_	I think we are in the good track	23:41
thiago_home	anyway, what can "upstream" do? Prepare presentations.	23:41
qgil_	but those companies are also dealing with all the mobile OS around, of course	23:41
thiago_home	neutral, benefits os meego	23:42
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thiago_home	but don't hide companies who are backing the project	23:42
qgil_	exactly	23:42
thiago_home	big ones and small ones (hey, lots of consultants here)	23:42
sivang	thiago_home: consult for app development :)	23:42
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thiago_home	one thing that the upstream project can't do, but we desperately need are iconic devices	23:43
qgil_	this neutrality is crucial for the marketing and project success	23:43
thiago_home	we need a couple on the market to show the capabilities	23:43
sivang	thiago_home++	23:43
qgil_	and this is why http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4898 (openness metabug) is actually one of the obstacles	23:43
thiago_home	Aava isn't for everybody and Nokia doesn't support MeeGo on the N900	23:43
thiago_home	but N900+MeeGo is the best we have so far	23:43
thiago_home	well, handset at least	23:43
thiago_home	Acer shipping a MeeGo-powered netbook would be cool. Amino shipping a MeeGo-powered STB too.	23:44
lbt	can meego in your car, in your pocket, on your walls make a difference?	23:44
qgil_	ok, let me go back to http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html - nobody has objected about the 4 targets proposed there	23:44
thiago_home	IVI is a weird segment though	23:44
pupnik	qgil_: looked fine to me	23:44
qgil_	I'll take it as a successful second round (nobody objected in meego-community either)	23:44
lbt	qgil_: I'd still like to see consumers	23:45
Texrat	lbt sure it can	23:45
thiago_home	qgil_: I think the targets are pretty much... pardon the pun, on target :-)	23:45
sivang	thiago_home: I think it can allow for good showcase of exotic features	23:45
lbt	even if we don't address them ourselves	23:45
Texrat	an open source computing ecosystem...	23:45
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lbt	we need to understand their position	23:45
qgil_	then let's see if we can polish a bit the goals beyond "world domination"	23:45
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Wingzero	Hi I have booted Meego... whats the default account and password?	23:45
qgil_	then we can combine goals and targets and start thinking of strategy and actions	23:45
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thiago_home	qgil_: btw, presentations on MeeGo's benefits (and requirements) is a must	23:46
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thiago_home	we have lots of people running around talking to companies	23:46
qgil_	thiago_home: in front of me I have postits with my to do	23:47
thiago_home	:-)	23:47
lbt	Wingzero: not many tech/devs around at the moment... but "well done" :)	23:47
qgil_	1st position is openness metabug amnd 2nd position is MeeGo intro slides published :)	23:47
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Texrat	qgil those MeeGo intro slides will eb great for the meetups	23:47
qgil_	and btw 3rd position is now "MeeGo Developer Experience WG proposal" - if someone wants to help	23:48
Texrat	my first scheduled has presentation setup	23:48
maclaver	qgil: Count me in on that one.	23:48
sivang	qgil_: me as well	23:48
* thiago_home is suddenly reminded his Qt Dev Days presentation is Qt on MeeGo and he requires MeeGo intro slides		23:48
sivang	qgil_: where'sthe draft?	23:48
qgil_	maclaver had an old one we must revisit	23:48
Texrat	I think that will be a lot of us thiago_home ;)	23:48
qgil_	and make it good for the current MeeGo structure and reality	23:49
sivang	thiago_home: qt dev days should be utilized to talk about MeeGo app development in a more complete way	23:49
thiago_home	sivang: Qt Dev Days is more than MeeGo	23:49
thiago_home	sivang: remember that most attendees are developing for Windows exclusively	23:49
qgil_	thiago_home: in fact it would be good to have someone senior at the Qt team backing and helping defining this Developer Experience WG proposal	23:49
sivang	thiago_home: you mean, SYmbian?	23:49
thiago_home	sivang: no, Windows	23:49
thiago_home	sivang: desktop developers	23:50
sivang	ah right	23:50
Wingzero	oh i see :(	23:50
DawnFoster	qgil_: can you call it something other than a WG? :)	23:50
DawnFoster	team	23:50
sivang	The dev days here were about Symbian mostly and some Maemo	23:50
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thiago_home	one of our objectives this year is to convince these people to develop for Nokia platforms too	23:50
qgil_	DawnFoster: no, because the proposal is precisely about a WG	23:50
thiago_home	MeeGo preferably, IMHO	23:50
qgil_	in the same line as the device UX, since the developer tools have pkenty of UX not addressed by abny WG directly	23:51
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sivang	thiago_home: that'd be great to see.	23:51
lcuk	thiago_home, "most are developing for windows" - WHY does that matter, in all seriousness	23:51
DawnFoster	qgil_: I really would call it something else	23:51
lcuk	especially with the netbook	23:51
thiago_home	lcuk: it doesn't matter for this channel	23:52
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DawnFoster	the WGs have a particular process and way of working and a lot of overhead	23:52
lcuk	thiago_home, but is there a difference in how to code if i wanted a qt app on windows and netbook?	23:52
qgil_	we are always talking about the importance of app developers, sdk, ditribution channels... yet there is nobody appointed and you can't see the developer offering anywhere at http://meego.com/about/governance	23:52
thiago_home	lcuk: aside from the more constrained screen size, no	23:52
lcuk	i can see difference in handheld for some levels	23:52
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Wingzero	hmmmm	23:52
sivang	thiago_home: and mobility stuff	23:52
lcuk	then, dev for windows or meego shouldn't really even be an issue	23:52
thiago_home	sivang: yes	23:53
qgil_	DawnFoster: at least what I'm talking about is a WG: with a coordinator and involvement of the right stakeholders, defining roadmap and requirements to the Program Office	23:53
lcuk	can i use mobility libs in a static install - ie on the netbook	23:53
thiago_home	anyway, let's forget about Windows, it's not relevant here	23:53
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thiago_home	my point was only that I'll be doing MeeGo evangelising and I need some material	23:53
sivang	thiago_home: as a start I propose the forum nokia people come with MeeGo notebooks instead of mac book pros	23:53
sivang	:)	23:54
Texrat	lol sivang	23:54
thiago_home	sivang: no FN people	23:54
thiago_home	sivang: these are Qt developers coming to talk	23:54
maclaver	The WG issue can be decided later, the important thing is to get the marketing work started and rolling (thiago needs the material by October).	23:54
DawnFoster	The Linux Foundation has a whole formal process around WGs	23:54
thiago_home	second... no OOo in MeeGo Netbook	23:54
lcuk	sivang, thats a good point in many cases	23:54
sivang	thiago_home: they were FN, only one was Qt dev	23:54
DawnFoster	call it something else if you want flexibility and to be able get started quickly	23:55
qgil_	DawnFoster: sure, the proposal targets precisely that formal process	23:55
sivang	thiago_home: or even present using the phones temselves instead of the mbp's	23:55
thiago_home	sivang: where?	23:55
DawnFoster	I'm not trying to be difficult, I really am trying to help you meet your goals	23:55
qgil_	DawnFoster: it's not about starting quickly, it's about doing the right thing	23:55
lcuk	thiago_home, no OOo, does it need heavy work to build it?	23:55
lcuk	and make available	23:55
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sivang	thiago_home: does it matter? I'd hate to frame good FN people I met :)	23:55
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qgil_	DawnFoster: now the developer offering is no visible and dismissed, the proof can be seen in the weaknesses we have in the current relese and future plans	23:55
thiago_home	sivang: anyway, Qt Dev Days isn't an FN event. It's a Qt event.	23:56
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DawnFoster	my point is that you can make it something visible and important and call it something else	23:56
thiago_home	sivang: the presenters are Trolls. With a few guests.	23:56
thiago_home	sivang: take a look at the bios at the website.	23:56
DawnFoster	qgil_ call it whatever you want, but I think you'll have serious issues if you try to call it a WG	23:56
DawnFoster	you'll notice that the TSG hasn't approved anything called a WG	23:56
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DawnFoster	the developer stuff is weak now because we needed to focus on the product to give developers a platform to write on top of.	23:57
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sivang	thiago_home: http://www.imaworld.org/?CategoryID=692	23:57
sivang	thiago_home: are all Trolltechists?	23:58
qgil_	DawnFoster: I'm well aware of it, I think they were right with the previous but I think this one makes sense	23:58
DawnFoster	now that we're making good progress on the distribution, we're starting to focus on app dev	23:58
DawnFoster	qgil_: you can try :)	23:58
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qgil_	DawnFoster: I honestly believe the developer offering is weak because it's common that platform developers working on an OS always think about the SDK afterward - and this is why you need people roadmapping and defining the develoer offering on its own	23:58
vlj	hi	23:58
vlj	there is no mic2 repo for meego ?????	23:59
thiago_home	sivang: no, I don't recognise any of the names	23:59
vlj	there are repo for fedora, ubuntu, opensuse, ...	23:59
vlj	but no repo for meego itselv	23:59
vlj	f	23:59

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