IRC log of #meego for Saturday, 2010-08-28

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Stskeeps	osc build requires auth, we might as well exploit this to know who to pass the mirror list to	00:00
lbt	agreed but at this point we're playing with TCP to avoid legal/ethical issues...	00:00
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Stskeeps	if we can avoid involving a single lawyer, it'd make the entire process a lot smoother :P	00:00
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* lcuk vanishes whilst feeling good		00:01
lbt	Stskeeps: well, you may have a point.	00:01
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DawnFoster	lcuk: hope you keep feeling better!	00:01
Stskeeps	i'm just looking at osc code to figure out exactly what needs to be done	00:01
lcuk	thats why I am vanishing DawnFoster :) have something to finish writing \o ttyl	00:01
DawnFoster	lcuk: ok, get to it :)	00:02
* lbt is going to look for his blind cat who's wandered off...		00:02
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DawnFoster	oh good, now we can talk about lbt while he chases his cat (kidding!)	00:04
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CosmoHill	kitty!	00:04
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auke-sfo	someone send a ^B to attract his cat	00:05
ScottishDuck	I'll send %	00:05
ScottishDuck	% is a bee	00:05
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* lbt found cat... under car		00:15
Stskeeps	lbt: OK, i have an idea that doesn't involve lawyers.	00:15
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lbt	Stskeeps: OK ... listening	00:16
Stskeeps	lbt: you recall the token url, that once you agree to eula, it gives you a repository url to add to apt/sources.list	00:17
Stskeeps	this is a normal thing to do for maemo developers	00:17
CosmoHill	excerlent, we have a new university mail service. Do they tell us how to access it? no	00:17
Stskeeps	lbt: .oscrc has a 'urllist' config which is mirror it tries for projects	00:18
Stskeeps	such as 'http://software.opensuse.org/download/%(project)s/%(repository)s/%(arch)s/%(filename)s',	00:19
Stskeeps	so when it looks for packages, it searches those first, then tries api	00:19
Stskeeps	(to my knowledge)	00:20
lbt	not sure about urllist	00:20
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lbt	assume it	00:20
Stskeeps	to let people build against a meego sdk online they don't need to agree to an eula do they?	00:21
Stskeeps	i mean, we don't do that on autobuilder	00:21
Stskeeps	so cbuild would have that as target by default (or easy opt in)	00:22
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Stskeeps	if people want local builds, they have a way to add it to their oscrcs, while we block api for linked OBS	00:22
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Stskeeps	(ie, the maemo.org one)	00:22
lbt	OK	00:23
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Stskeeps	this was it bends down to caching and an admin agreeing to EULA of the linked bits..	00:23
Stskeeps	this would then, i mean	00:23
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`alt096	hi all	00:24
lbt	OK ... would that not mean having closed bits on the OBS... although they would not be redistributed	00:24
Stskeeps	the OBS would fetch binaries (as it can under EULA) over obs link, cache temporarily/use for installation, and build a package	00:25
Stskeeps	and it won't redistribute them through it's own api (if people want packages, they can add it in oscrc)	00:25
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Stskeeps	it is no more difficult than the current situation	00:26
Stskeeps	i think this should be pretty simple to acheive.	00:27
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lbt	yes. this avoids distributing the binaries	00:28
Stskeeps	(there is a can of worms in the fact we don't make people accept EULA for an autobuilder on maemo.org, but ..)	00:29
lbt	we can make the nokia closed repos a "DoD" for the OBS	00:29
lbt	although we may end up priming it ...	00:29
Stskeeps	well, isn't a obs instance easier to deal with?	00:29
Stskeeps	to link to	00:29
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lbt	actually easier... no	00:30
lbt	more arguable at the legal semantics... maybe	00:31
Stskeeps	to implement this we basically need: tero&co to add a part with oscrc to the token page, a patch for api to not export nokia-binaries:* over api and someone to accept the EULA of the binaries for use for maemo development on the machine.	00:32
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Stskeeps	and the binaries exported in a format osc build would like/obs itself	00:32
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lbt	and .... agreement that the OBS can be used to build against closed binaries...	00:33
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lbt	although we now have a technical solution that avoids lawyers ... which is a plus point	00:34
Stskeeps	that's probably a non-issue	00:34
Stskeeps	we could ask if we can install scratchbox and everyone can use it :0	00:34
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Stskeeps	but i think we won't have a problem getting 'permission' to do: build against fremantle with binaries, as long as the binaries are not hosted on the machine (except for fair use caching and build) and it doesn't distribute them	00:35
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nuovodna	will nokia n9 with meego be announced at nokia conference in september?	00:36
Stskeeps	nuovodna: sorry, you'll have to ask nokia about that :)	00:36
Stskeeps	nuovodna: we deal with meego.com here, software, not hardware creation :)	00:37
nuovodna	thanks Stskeeps	00:37
Stskeeps	lbt: should i do a writeup and mail it?	00:37
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lbt	Stskeeps: OK - was just looking at the code	00:38
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lbt	I replied to Attila BTW	00:38
Stskeeps	lbt: minor detail to pay attention to is that i think workers drag binaries in with api, so there needs to be a localnet exception..	00:38
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lbt	yeah... maintaing that in perpetuity is part of the cost of avoiding the "you can redistribute" letter from nokia	00:40
Stskeeps	we're all hosed if repository.maemo.org nokia-binaries goes down anyway	00:41
Stskeeps	but considering we still have maemo 1.0 debs..	00:41
lbt	worth identifying this as a viable solution ... but also saying what you're solving	00:41
lbt	This effort is to a) avoid asking nokia to allow meego.com to mirror "nokia-binaries" and b) provide a veneer that meego.com is somehow not allowing closed binaries in the OBS targets	00:43
Stskeeps	what's a veneer?	00:43
Stskeeps	:P	00:43
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lbt	thin wood overlay...	00:43
Stskeeps	:blank look:	00:43
Stskeeps	:P	00:43
lbt	kinda means hiding the unpleasant truth :)	00:43
lbt	but very gentle	00:44
DawnFoster	ahem :)	00:44
lbt	you put a veneer of real wood over chipboard to make it look like real wood	00:44
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lbt	DawnFoster: I know you're listening... :)	00:45
Stskeeps	not the kind of thing i expected to learn on a friday evening	00:45
Stskeeps	:P	00:45
nuovodna	is there a release schedule of meego handset ?	00:45
DawnFoster	just making sure :)	00:45
Stskeeps	nuovodna: yes, check out wiki.meego.com/Release_engineering	00:45
Stskeeps	er, big E	00:45
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Stskeeps	http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Engineering/Plans/1.1	00:45
Stskeeps	(subject to change)	00:46
lbt	DawnFoster: do you see my point.... even this solution puts freemantle closed binaries into the OBS for a build... it's kinda unavoidable.	00:46
nuovodna	great...thanks again Stskeeps	00:46
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Stskeeps	lbt: i think that's just nitpicking :)	00:46
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DawnFoster	lbt / stskeeps: agreed	00:47
Stskeeps	lbt: there'll be people who object the theme of obs isn't pink, too	00:47
Stskeeps	:P	00:47
DawnFoster	no, no pink :)	00:47
ali1234	on that subject, why does the meego and maemo obs look different to what i have?	00:47
lbt	DawnFoster: oh dear	00:47
lbt	DawnFoster: too late	00:47
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DawnFoster	one more thing you have to change :P	00:48
ali1234	maybe not the maemo one, can't remember if i've even seen that	00:48
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Stskeeps	ali1234: version	00:49
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Stskeeps	later ones is more facebook-y	00:49
Stskeeps	or something	00:49
ali1234	yeah i prefer the new look	00:49
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ali1234	is this going to break other things though?	00:49
ali1234	if i use the "wrong" version?	00:49
Stskeeps	we're on 1.8 or something on build.meego.com	00:50
ali1234	i'm pretty sure i am on 1.8 too	00:50
ali1234	at least i used build appliance version 1.8	00:50
lbt	Stskeeps: I can certainly live with that solution. DawnFoster... what do you think ?	00:50
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Stskeeps	lbt: the one i suggested or which>	00:50
DawnFoster	It seems to meet my requirement of hosting the binaries elsewhere	00:51
DawnFoster	I'm ok with pulling them in to do the build	00:51
DawnFoster	sort of inevitable - at some point you have to combine everything	00:51
DawnFoster	I was assuming we were talking about stskeeps latest suggestion (that's what I was commenting on)	00:52
lbt	Stskeeps: yes, the one you suggested. Block some binary packages from being available via osc api	00:53
lbt	primary host is nokia as now	00:53
lbt	and the OBS caches them for builds	00:53
lbt	tweak osc Fetcher object to handle some kind of "also-try"	00:54
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lbt	hmm I wonder if DoD would hand a redirect to osc build...	00:54
lbt	DoD is the least ongoing technical effort I think	00:55
ali1234	hmm... what if i make a spec file that steals the binaries or something?	00:55
ali1234	just by cp etc	00:55
Stskeeps	ali1234: you don't (legally) have a right to use them	00:55
lbt	ali1234: you'd break the license	00:55
lbt	which is fine	00:55
lbt	and naughty	00:55
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lbt	we are not implementing technical measures to prevent you ... we are implementing them to allow us to offer the service within the license	00:56
ali1234	what if someone does it accidentally?	00:57
Stskeeps	their problem for breaching license	00:57
Stskeeps	should we put warning labels up? :P	00:57
ali1234	i dunno :)	00:57
ali1234	i still don't know which closed binaries you're really talking about	00:57
lbt	<blink> makes a comeback!	00:57
lbt	Fremantle	00:57
lbt	N900 SDK from Nokia	00:58
ali1234	i'm pretty sure that the SDK itself doesn't have the closed stuff and you have to add that other repo afterwards to get them...	00:58
ali1234	i guess i can just look in that repo to see whats in it	00:58
lbt	enough	00:58
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lbt	ali1234: I thought you didn't have an N900 ?	00:59
ali1234	what made you think that?	00:59
ali1234	i have a n800 too	00:59
lbt	I may be confusing you :) easy done	00:59
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ali1234	you always confuse me :)	01:00
lbt	like I say... easy done	01:00
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ali1234	touche	01:00
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* lbt decided to start hoarding some sleep so he can get up early on tuesday...		01:04
lbt	'night all ... thanks for the interesting and positive discussions :)	01:04
DawnFoster	ha. night lbt :)	01:04
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slaine	I think I need another cuppa	01:10
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Nadley	I all	01:14
Nadley	*hi	01:14
Nadley	I have a little trouble in install meego on my sd card to try it on my n900 and it starts but I have not backlight so I use google and I found that I have to activate R&D mode I did it but it is not better	01:16
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CosmoHill	Nadley: one moment	01:17
Nadley	CosmoHill: ok	01:18
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CosmoHill	Nadley:	01:21
CosmoHill	try pressing the power button and increse brightness button	01:21
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Nadley	brightness button ?	01:21
CosmoHill	erm	01:22
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CosmoHill	one moment	01:22
Nadley	CosmoHill: ok I wait	01:22
ali1234	Stskeeps: here is a list of every package that's listed in Build-Depends or Build-Depends-Indep in a dsc file in extras, ordered by how many packages depend on it: http://pastebin.com/isPr0qKr	01:23
Nadley	CosmoHill: I use this guide to install meego on my SD CARD. And now my Meego is runnng but is it hard to see something http://flors.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/running-meego-1-1-unstable-in-your-n900/	01:24
Stskeeps	ali1234: liblocation-dev, libosso-abook-dev, libtime-dev, librtcom-accounts-widgets-dev, opengles-sgx-img-common-dev	01:26
Stskeeps	at least	01:26
ali1234	even the -dev packages are not redistributable?	01:27
Stskeeps	they all depend on a lib* :)	01:27
Stskeeps	no fun if you can't link	01:27
ali1234	i suppose	01:27
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: can you help Nadley?	01:28
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Stskeeps	Nadley: what version of image?	01:28
Nadley	Stskeeps: meego-handset-armv5tel-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.13.20100803.2-mmcblk0p.raw	01:29
Stskeeps	get a newer one, we have lik 20100824 now	01:29
Nadley	oh really were can I find it ?	01:29
Stskeeps	Nadley: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php	01:29
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Nadley	Stskeeps: ok thanks I didn't see all the image. I was thinking there was just the first	01:31
Nadley	Stskeeps: other question is there a place were I can knew more about what it is working on meego and what it is not	01:33
Stskeeps	Nadley: yes, follow the test reports	01:33
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Nadley	Stskeeps: thx the backlight is working with the new kernel but I have to download the new image. Where are the test reports	01:36
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Stskeeps	Nadley: http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/HandsetTestReport	01:38
CosmoHill	thanks Stskeeps	01:38
Nadley	thx I'll try the new image later I have to go	01:39
Nadley	I hope meego will be a good OS as I would like	01:39
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CosmoHill	Nadley: if not, open vim / emacs and contribute :)	01:40
Nadley	I'm not good for it at the moment ;)	01:41
CosmoHill	night night	01:45
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ScottishDuck	ARM seems to believe the future on phones is running multiple VMs at once	02:19
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lcuk	http://conference2010.meego.com/session/maemo-community-standing-shoulders-giants	02:26
lcuk	summary submitted	02:26
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trem	nite all, sweet dreams	02:32
slaine	nite all	02:33
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lcuk	DawnFoster, my keynote will likely include additional presenters, however I cannot leave it saying "Misc"	03:00
lcuk	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=800473#post800473 :)	03:11
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sriramy	Hi, where can I find instructions to build Meego for Handset?	04:03
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ali1234	sriramy: to build an image with mic2?	04:07
sriramy	yes	04:08
ali1234	http://wiki.meego.com/Image_Creation	04:08
sriramy	ali1234:Thx	04:08
ali1234	http://wiki.meego.com/Image_Creation_For_Beginners	04:08
ali1234	http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Creating_ARM_image_using_MeeGo_Image_Creator	04:09
ali1234	probably a lot more docs in the wiki	04:09
sriramy	ok	04:09
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sriramy	ali1234: I was looking to see if I can get the sources and build Meego for Handset. Is that documented somewhere	05:49
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RST38h	thiago: Would you know why qmake ignores files named Image.c and Console.c in the project source list?	10:08
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Stskeeps	RST38h: what happens if you kill -USR1 a process that doesn't handle it? that's non-fatal isn't it?	10:27
RST38h	Stskeeps: sorry?	10:28
Stskeeps	RST38h: as in, it doesn't shut down the process cos the signal is unhandled	10:28
RST38h	Stskeeps: qmake is a one-shot makefile generator	10:28
RST38h	You run it from command line and have a generated makefile in a second	10:28
RST38h	What signal? When?	10:28
Stskeeps	yes, i know	10:29
Stskeeps	it wasn't related	10:29
RST38h	hmm	10:29
RST38h	It is almost as if qmake checks for certain file names and ignores them	10:29
Stskeeps	isn't qmake for .cpp/.cc files? :P	10:29
RST38h	No, not really	10:30
* RST38h is confused now: he would gladly drop qmake completely and go with normal makefiles (using variables)		10:30
RST38h	But it is unclear how to make such a makefile intelligently in madde	10:30
hell	i hear, that all UI programming is moving from Fin to USA, is it right?	10:31
RST38h	qmake basically generates a pile of hardcoded absolute paths to qt includes etc	10:31
Stskeeps	hell: hm?	10:31
hell	Stskeeps: it's all about Nokia.	10:32
Stskeeps	hell: i could mention better places to move ui programming :)	10:32
Stskeeps	then again, ui programming does need a good supply of coke and weed	10:33
Stskeeps	:P	10:33
RST38h	Yes, Nokia and the little green men	10:33
hell	Stskeeps: :-)	10:33
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RST38h	Ah, pretty, I know what is going on	10:58
RST38h	Stupid, stupid qmake, trying to avoid what it probably considers an inclusion loop by ignoring sources causing it	10:59
RST38h	Boos go to QtLabs and all idiots who think they can write a better build system than make.	10:59
thiago_home	qmake doesn't replace make	11:02
RST38h	right	11:02
RST38h	and even the limited thing it does, it cannot do properly	11:02
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thiago_home	or it's pilot error, which is more likely	11:04
RST38h	ah, it is not	11:04
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RST38h	I need to go do a few things but when I have a bit of time, I will show what exactly is causing it	11:05
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RST38h	(not that I have any expectations of anyone fixing it of course)	11:05
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Jaffa	Morning, all	11:06
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RST38h	Stskeeps, thiago: Observe: http://pastebin.com/kxnPFh3r	11:15
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RST38h	When qmake looks at Image.c it completely ignores the fact that includes are conditional. What it sees is that Image.c includes ImageMux.h which includes Image.c	11:15
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RST38h	This looks like an endless inclusion loop, so qmake silently drops Image.c from the list of sources, without printing any diagnostics.	11:16
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RST38h	BTW, the project file also defines BPP16 so the inclusion never happens in the first place, but of course qmake does not take that into account.	11:18
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RST38h	Ho ho ho it compiles!	11:31
RST38h	(after an ugly absolute path inserted into the makefile of course, but anyway)	11:31
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swc\|666	RST38h, absolute paths ftw	11:54
swc\|666	FOOL PROOF!	11:54
swc\|666	++	11:54
thiago_home	yes, qmake does a quick scan of sources to figure out dependencies	11:56
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RST38h	thiago: and once it finds something it does not like (personally), it quietly drops the source file from the list	12:03
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RST38h	thiago: [please refer to my previous comments about idiots and build systems]	12:03
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thiago_home	I doubt it dropped from the list	12:04
thiago_home	but it probably generated circular dependency rules that threw make off course	12:04
RST38h	it did, as Makefile contained no mention of Image.c whatsoever	12:04
RST38h	No, thiago. As I said, Image.c went away as if it weren't there	12:04
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RST38h	Should I suggest how this msfeature has been introduced?	12:06
RST38h	Probably started from a user complaining about qmake going to endless loop and hanging on circular inclusions	12:06
thiago_home	now prove it	12:06
RST38h	Trolltech people promptly fixed it by dropping any files that refer to themselves somewhere in the working set	12:07
RST38h	Problem solved, user happy :)	12:07
thiago_home	I could believe that though	12:07
RST38h	thiago: I have proven it far enough, see the pastebin url from above	12:07
RST38h	thiago: If you still doubt it is true, paste those lines into a couple of files and try for yourself.	12:08
RST38h	thiago: As you are not responsible for qmake development, there is nothing you can help me with here, so ROI value for proving things to you is 0 :)	12:09
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* thiago_home has the power to influence qmake development		12:10
RST38h	Ok, I will happily demonstrate the problem to whoever is responsible for qmake development	12:11
RST38h	In return, of course, for a promise to fix it :)	12:11
thiago_home	there's never a promise to fix anything	12:11
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thiago_home	Fixes: avoid pathological include case	12:12
thiago_home	Task: 141749	12:12
thiago_home	Details: When a file includes itself, don't bookkeep that - it is mostly pathological.	12:12
thiago_home	http://qt.nokia.com/developer/task-tracker/index_html?method=entry&id=141749	12:13
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lcuk	Stskeeps, why aren't the other keynotes being put up as open proposals?	12:21
lcuk	I just thought people were holding back from making them but they would be there, like mine :)	12:21
Stskeeps	lcuk: that's a good philosophical question	12:21
RST38h	thiago: If there is no promise to fix things, there is no incentive to report them	12:22
lcuk	lol Stskeeps	12:23
RST38h	thiago: I now have a solution (which is "do not use qmake"), so I am semihappy	12:23
lcuk	RST38h, that sounds like a regular complaint!	12:24
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Stskeeps	lcuk: i think the tradition is that some vips are asked to come and do a talk, instead of submitting a proposal	12:24
RST38h	lcuk: See the log	12:24
Stskeeps	lcuk: but how this works in practice in a open project with sponsorship and industrial interest.. :)	12:25
lcuk	ahh wlel, shall see, community is opener - its going to be them writing it (they helped with the proposal)	12:26
lcuk	well ^	12:26
* Stskeeps goes back to his optflags bug		12:26
* lcuk grabs coffee		12:27
lcuk	wedding today	12:27
Stskeeps	yours?	12:27
lcuk	hah, no	12:27
lcuk	cant afford that yet	12:27
Stskeeps	when is that anyway?	12:27
Stskeeps	:P	12:27
Stskeeps	ah	12:27
Stskeeps	we managed to do our wedding for 1000 pound or something total	12:27
lcuk	yeah well mine involves flying halfway round the world and logistics and crap	12:28
lcuk	only place me and tracy could agree on	12:28
Stskeeps	australia? :P	12:28
lcuk	las vegas - in a little chapel with elvis actually	12:28
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Stskeeps	ah	12:28
lcuk	(don't ask..)	12:29
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Stskeeps	morn david	12:30
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lbt	good morning	12:31
lbt	my old server needs an upgrade	12:31
lbt	oom this morning ... took all the VMs down	12:31
lcuk	\o morning lbt	12:31
lbt	needed a desktop reboot	12:31
lbt	bad :(	12:31
lbt	hey lcuk	12:31
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lcuk	lbt, did your car ever get happily fixed?	12:40
lbt	yes	12:40
lcuk	nice	12:40
lbt	took a while but it's back to normal :)	12:41
lcuk	heh cool	12:41
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lbt	hmm... something is up... I'm getting like 3-4 second keypress latency here...	12:41
lcuk	i get that when my internal network is slow	12:42
Stskeeps	lbt: your keypresses is getting sent to the moon and back? ;)	12:42
lbt	they may as well be	12:42
Stskeeps	i have decided i'm not gcc's friend	12:43
lbt	I type entire sentences and don't see a reaction	12:43
lbt	heh	12:43
lcuk	Stskeeps, take gcc out for a beer and make up with it	12:43
Stskeeps	if we use -Wl,-z,anything, if we don't have -O2 -g -pipe -Wall -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -fexceptions -fstack-protector --param=ssp-buffer-size=4 -Wl,-z,relno,-z,now -fmessage-length=0 -march=armv7-a -mtune=cortex-a8 -mlittle-endian -mfpu=vfpv3 -mfloat-abi=softfp -D__SOFTFP__ (or the armv5tel equivalent), it creates non-PIC shared libraries	12:44
* lbt nods and looks like he understands		12:45
Stskeeps	mm	12:45
Stskeeps	'the reason qt is so darned slow on meego ARM'	12:45
Stskeeps	:P	12:45
lcuk	mm	12:45
lcuk	Stskeeps, dont you need export-dynamic and -shared?	12:46
Stskeeps	it's there	12:46
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pavlix	docela by mě zajímalo, čím je způsobený přeskakování hlasitosti přehrávání muziky při míchání s jiným zvukem (fedora 13, pulse)	14:20
pavlix	wrong channel, sorry	14:20
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lcuk	oooh @yerga is looking at meego-handset-photo	14:39
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meegoss	hello, i try to flash meego on my n900. I understand thath i only need 2 files, kernel and ubiimg. But which files should i use just to test ?	15:07
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meegoss	which kernel and from where i should flash?	15:08
CosmoHill	have you read the wiki page about flashing the n900?	15:09
Stskeeps	meegoss: no, you need to grab the sd card image 'raw' and kernel	15:10
meegoss	so native installation is not possible?	15:10
meegoss	to nand	15:10
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: It's 3pm for you right?	15:10
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Stskeeps	2pm	15:10
Stskeeps	meegoss: right, meego's too big	15:10
CosmoHill	ah okay	15:10
CosmoHill	CET	15:10
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meegoss	Stskeeps: hmm but it flashes it ok when i try to flash it	15:11
Stskeeps	meegoss: yes, but that's an ancient version	15:11
meegoss	well if i just want to try that?	15:11
meegoss	http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/0.9.80.1.20100330.1/n900/images/meego-codedrop-arm-n900/meego-codedrop-arm-n900-201003311614.ubiimg for example this	15:12
Stskeeps	it shows an x terminal	15:12
Stskeeps	http://tablets-dev.meego.com/meego-codedrop.php	15:12
meegoss	so which kernel i should flash with this particular image	15:13
* RST38h filed a bug at Qt bugzilla. Let us see if these guys are any better than Maemo guys		15:13
Stskeeps	meegoss: there should be a vmlinuz alongside	15:13
Stskeeps	meegoss: or zimage	15:13
meegoss	http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/0.9.80.1.20100330.1/n900/images/meego-codedrop-arm-n900/ not here, only image, ks and tar.gz	15:14
Stskeeps	anyway.. i would just give up and get a microsd and http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php	15:14
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meegoss	Stskeeps: okey maybe ill try that	15:15
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ali1234	i'm ordering microsd cards. is there any use in getting 8gb instead of 4gb?	15:18
CosmoHill	what's the price difference?	15:18
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ali1234	about 40%	15:18
CosmoHill	any reason you're ordering more than one?	15:19
ali1234	i want to run meego and nitdroid	15:19
CosmoHill	I mean one 8gb is cheaper than two 4gb	15:19
Stskeeps	ali1234: get a class 6 or 10 if possible	15:19
ali1234	yeah, just slightly	15:19
CosmoHill	4gb should be fine for dev work	15:19
ali1234	Stskeeps: really? hmm ok, i was going to get class 4	15:19
Stskeeps	mb/s is always good	15:20
ali1234	is it mbit or mbyte?	15:20
Stskeeps	dunno	15:20
Stskeeps	:P	15:20
ali1234	cos 4 mbyte is pretty fast...	15:20
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ali1234	it's mbyte according wikipedia	15:21
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CosmoHill	£15 for a 4GB class 10	15:25
CosmoHill	ignore that, not micro	15:25
ali1234	thinking of getting this: http://www.ebuyer.com/product/179892	15:26
ali1234	x2	15:26
ali1234	cos those adapters are always useful	15:26
ali1234	and my mini adapters are actually wearing out from over use	15:26
ali1234	one already broke	15:26
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CosmoHill	I can't remember the website I got my dad's cards from , i know it was irish and included USB adapters	15:27
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CosmoHill	ali1234: mobile phone shops tend to sell microSD cards if you want to look there	15:31
ali1234	i went around all local shops yesterday, every single one wanted over £20 for a sdhc card with no adapters	15:31
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ali1234	for 4GB	15:31
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CosmoHill	sod that	15:32
ali1234	yeah quite	15:33
CosmoHill	now I'm looking at compact flash cards for my camera >.<	15:33
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CosmoHill	I've seen some 4GB ones but doesn;t' say the class	15:36
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CosmoHill	ali1234: http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/4Gb-Transcend-TS4GUSDHC6-microSDHC-Memory-Card-with-SD-Adaptor-class-6-Retail	15:37
ali1234	ew scan	15:37
ali1234	no thanks	15:37
ali1234	plus it only has the big adapter	15:37
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CosmoHill	ali1234: http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Home/Search/Flash-Memory-Pen-Drives/Flash-Memory/?attribute_value_string\|Internal+Memory+%28MB%29=4096+%284+GB%29&attribute_value_string\|Flash+Card+Type=Micro+Secure+Digital+%28MicroSD%29	15:41
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ali1234	CosmoHill: more expensive than ebuyer for exact same thing :)	15:42
CosmoHill	>.<	15:42
CosmoHill	see how they compare on postage?	15:42
ali1234	ebuyer is £1.94	15:42
CosmoHill	wow	15:42
ali1234	that's for 3 day, and they go by weight so...	15:42
CosmoHill	I looked at £1.20 worth of components and the postage was £6	15:43
ali1234	at what shop?	15:43
ali1234	you can't get much on ebuyer for £1.20	15:44
CosmoHill	CPC or something	15:44
ali1234	ah CPC, i knew it	15:44
ali1234	would be resistors or something	15:44
ali1234	they have a minimum order, once you go over it, delivery is free	15:44
CosmoHill	PCB sockets that might work with this laptop	15:44
ali1234	i think it's about £30	15:44
ali1234	or maybe that's farnell	15:44
CosmoHill	ended up buying them on ebay in the states for £5.50	15:45
CosmoHill	ali1234: same thing	15:45
ali1234	but they are wholesalers, they don't like dealing with some guy buying 3 resistors and a socket	15:45
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CosmoHill	oh dear lord I think william is back	15:51
RST38h	wtf is william?	15:52
CosmoHill	a guy who got banned from both LFS and CLFS	15:52
CosmoHill	he would email CLFS going "LFS / DIY linux has done this, you should too"	15:52
CosmoHill	with no reason why	15:52
CosmoHill	it's 14 i think and as annoying as hell	15:53
RST38h	wtf is LFS?	15:53
CosmoHill	www.linuxfromscratch.org	15:53
CosmoHill	*he's	15:53
RST38h	ah	15:53
ali1234	wtf is CLFS?	15:53
RST38h	No, "it's" is fine when talking about trolls	15:53
CosmoHill	also a few other projects that he's annoyed	15:53
CosmoHill	Cross	15:53
CosmoHill	for an example	15:54
RST38h	Anything that cannot pass the Turing test should be referred to as "it"	15:54
CosmoHill	There was a typo in the book, he sent us a patch	15:54
CosmoHill	-<screen><userinput>make ARCH=ppc CROSS_COMPILE=${CLFS_TARGET}- \	15:54
CosmoHill	+<screen><userinput>make ARCH=powerpc CROSS_COMPILE=${CLFS_TARGET}- \	15:54
CosmoHill	that's it	15:54
ali1234	no mention of which line?	15:54
CosmoHill	i mean there is a while patch file	15:54
CosmoHill	but he adds 4 letters to it	15:54
hell	)	15:55
CosmoHill	plus we've been using ppc for years so why change it now	15:55
ali1234	i dunno, cos that's what the arch is called?	15:55
ali1234	if that's a prefix to a kernel compile which it looks like, then you better get the ARCH right, or it won't work	15:55
CosmoHill	he also made another change in the book and neglected to change all the things that depend on it	15:57
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CosmoHill	so if we implemented the changes the book wouldn't compile	15:57
ali1234	ARCH=ppc make menuconfig # this doesn't work	15:58
ali1234	ARCH=powerpc make menuconfig # this does work	15:58
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ali1234	but meh, it's your book :)	15:58
CosmoHill	well I am gonna test it	15:59
CosmoHill	just give me 3 mins to unpack the tarball...	15:59
* CosmoHill thinks of his development machines		16:00
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CosmoHill	out of the three I have, only one of them is over 1Ghz ;/	16:00
ali1234	i just tried it on 2.6.32	16:00
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CosmoHill	just tired 2.6.33, now trying 2.6.19	16:09
CosmoHill	*29	16:09
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CosmoHill	okay now I'm confused	16:13
CosmoHill	1. 2.6.19 also uses powerpc, not ppc	16:13
CosmoHill	2. the book also uses powerpc, not ppc	16:13
ali1234	they probably renamed it	16:14
ali1234	or, it's just a single typo maybe, hence the simple patch?	16:15
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CosmoHill	ah found it	16:16
CosmoHill	odd, it's correct 2 out of 3 times on that page	16:17
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CosmoHill	maybe it's not william, seems to be helpful :/	16:22
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th0br0	heya everyone.	16:59
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CosmoHill	hey th0br0	17:01
CosmoHill	how was your summer?	17:01
th0br0	pretty interesting :) how was yours in the end?	17:01
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Mat_Matan	What do you recommend phone to test the application for meego handset	17:03
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CosmoHill	Mat_Matan: what phone would we recommend?	17:05
Mat_Matan	yup	17:05
Mat_Matan	idk what phone can run meego handset	17:06
CosmoHill	Meego only works on the N900	17:06
CosmoHill	(at the moment)	17:06
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Mat_Matan	Thx	17:07
ali1234	it works on those development devices too, if you can get hold of one :)	17:07
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th0br0	;) ali1234	17:08
ali1234	http://www.aavamobile.com/	17:09
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CosmoHill	ooo	17:10
GAN900	CosmoHill, for some definition of "works".	17:10
CosmoHill	it mostly works	17:11
GAN900	For some definition of "mostly".	17:11
CosmoHill	Mat_Matan: ask GAN900 how it works on the n900 :)	17:12
Stskeeps	easier to go watch a video	17:13
th0br0	ali1234: is there any eta on that aava mobile?	17:13
ali1234	website says 2010Q3	17:13
th0br0	mh	17:14
ali1234	for developer sdk	17:14
CosmoHill	that ends monday :o	17:14
ali1234	that's all i know	17:14
th0br0	Atom Z600 huh	17:14
GAN900	x86 phones are still hilarious.	17:14
ali1234	yeah, don't put it in your pocket if you wear polyester slacks :/	17:14
GAN900	No matter how much handwaving Intel wants to do.	17:14
CosmoHill	I like that they have a pre-order option but no price	17:15
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ali1234	"if you need to ask you don't need to know"	17:16
GAN900	^	17:16
CosmoHill	:(	17:16
GAN900	I think it's somewhere around $2,000.	17:16
CosmoHill	okay sod that	17:17
ali1234	isn't there a beagle board port?	17:20
ali1234	those are only $149	17:20
ali1234	not exactly a handset but very similar hardware	17:20
CosmoHill	there were jogglers too	17:21
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CosmoHill	to me it seems very weird to have a linux device that uses an Intel GMA500 graphics chip and runs a Adobe Flash interface	17:22
GAN900	Just get an N900 if you need a handset.	17:23
ali1234	i don't think anyone who actually bought one uses the default OS	17:23
LoCusF_	beagle board has the same processor	17:23
GAN900	CosmoHill, consider the Motorola "Linux" handsets.	17:23
LoCusF_	as the N900	17:23
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GAN900	LoCusF_, more or less.	17:23
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LoCusF_	GAN900: yeah	17:27
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renegaid	was meego for netbook ever updated?	19:00
renegaid	seems not	19:01
odin_	updated in what way ? linux meego version 1.0 to 1.0.1 to 1.1 to 1.2 ? or updated as in yum/zypper update ?	19:01
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renegaid	the OS was really buggy	19:01
Stskeeps	renegaid: sure it was? there has been several updated	19:01
Stskeeps	s	19:01
odin_	yes it is a work in progress	19:01
renegaid	i just fouf it. Still on 1.0. Should have been 0.x	19:02
odin_	there is no official product based on it yet, so expect it to be a little buggy	19:02
renegaid	is nokia the only one using it on phone	19:02
renegaid	i wonder if the market has room for yet another mobile os	19:02
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Stskeeps	well, it technically just 'replaces' both moblin and meego with a bigger spread	19:03
odin_	I think there are other devices adopting it, but its early days in the development process	19:03
Stskeeps	so it's not another	19:03
Stskeeps	:P	19:03
odin_	I also don't consider Linux yes-another-mobile-os, its the SAME OS I can use on my desktop, media centre and super-computer	19:04
odin_	the question should be, does the world have room for bespoke operating systems that don't offer anything compelling	19:05
DawnFoster	we've done 2 updates for the netbook	19:06
DawnFoster	http://meego.com/downloads/releases/updates	19:06
DawnFoster	After you install 1.0, you can run the updater to get a bunch of bug fixes	19:07
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* Mat_Matan slaps around a bit with a large E63-1		19:08
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Mat_Matan	Jest tu ktoś mówiący po polsku? \|\| There is someone who speaks Polish?	19:25
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Stskeeps	Mat_Matan: i'm a foreigner who speaks horribly little polish as i live in warsaw	19:27
Stskeeps	:P	19:27
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c3l	what about pocket computers / smart phones. have any devices been scheduled for release. (maybe you don't know that here as this is meego talk, but who knows)	19:28
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Mat_Matan	I created Polish Meego channel (meego-pl) but I need help with the setup it send some information about it	19:30
Mat_Matan	*and send...	19:30
Stskeeps	mm, since it's nieofficialjny it should be called ##meego-pl	19:33
Stskeeps	according to freenode rules	19:33
jjo	dd	19:33
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Stskeeps	Mat_Matan: if it was official i guess it'd go through normal community office process, but we don't really have a policy..	19:34
jjo	seems like my mobile client is gonna need some getting used to	19:34
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Mat_Matan	it's normal, look at #debian-pl #ubuntu-pl and others	19:35
Mat_Matan	There is no obligation to write ##	19:36
Stskeeps	Mat_Matan: http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#primarychannels applies. But anyway, i don't think it's a bad idea to possibly having country channels, but those would have to be organised underneath the meego project somehow	19:38
c3l	Mat_Matan: those channels are official, the ## applies to inofficial channels	19:39
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Stskeeps	general rule is that #meego* is owned by the project itself or representants of it	19:41
c3l	oh, they\re not official, never mind me :)	19:41
Stskeeps	well, or accepted by project	19:41
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Stskeeps	either way, just letting you know :P	19:42
DawnFoster	we should talk to Margie to get her thoughts on local language IRC channels & run them through the localization processes	19:42
Stskeeps	:nod:	19:42
DawnFoster	Margie is the expert there & I would support her decision	19:43
Stskeeps	i think there's a point to local language IRC channels, .. often the l10n community exists and becomes in those too	19:43
DawnFoster	it's better than maintaining a million localized mailing lists :)	19:43
Stskeeps	just has to be done in a way where there's no doubt that it's somehow affiliated to project	19:43
DawnFoster	(selfish reasoning)	19:43
DawnFoster	exactly, which is why we need to go through Margie	19:43
Stskeeps	:nod:	19:44
DawnFoster	Mat_Matan: can you post something about this to the localization mailing list?	19:44
DawnFoster	Mat_Matan: http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-il10n	19:44
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* Stskeeps wouldn't mind a -pl for selfish reasons too, would be useful to know some meego peeps in poland :)		19:45
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DawnFoster	stskeeps: and you can practice your Polish :)	19:45
Stskeeps	hehe	19:46
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Stskeeps	i should really sign up for next level of courses.. was a bit beat down by the fact i managed to pass the same level twice by accident (changed from intensive to non-intensive and ended up with twice level A1 ;)	19:46
Stskeeps	but since i'll have to travel at least monthly from now on, following a steady course will be difficult	19:47
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dm8tbr	Stskeeps: you could have a look at the foreign-service-institute course material. it is also suitable for self-study	19:50
Stskeeps	:nod:	19:50
* dm8tbr uses that for training his finncrypt codec and it's pretty nice, most languages come with 'tapes'		19:50
Stskeeps	i do have some books/audio i could put back into use i guess	19:51
dm8tbr	2k+ pages of material for free as pdf files in my case :)	19:51
dm8tbr	meh, no files for polish on http://www.fsi-language-courses.org/Content.php	19:53
c3l	I vote for forcing the world to agree on english (even though my primary language is swedish)	19:53
Stskeeps	c3l: i would just go for telepathy.	19:54
dm8tbr	Stskeeps: http://www.fsi-language-courses.org/Content.php?page=Off%20Site - one pdf for polish :)	19:55
Stskeeps	dm8tbr: thanks	19:55
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c3l	indeed, i've been using telepathy alot, problem is though, its hard to get people to respond :(	19:56
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dm8tbr	shiiiiit, I just took a look at the PDF and now have an poland-in-the-80s flashback!	19:57
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Mat_Matan	so, i don't have choice, i must close channel	20:00
Stskeeps	Mat_Matan: nah, we didn't say that :)	20:00
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th0br0	heya Stskeeps	20:01
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Stskeeps	Mat_Matan: this is first time someone is making a language-specific channel so we'd like to ask you to talk to the person in charge of localization/l10n	20:01
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Stskeeps	Mat_Matan: so we can make your channel official properly	20:01
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Mat_Matan	Weeeee :D	20:03
smithna	Hi, I'm playing around with IVI and had a couple of questions. I noted that there are very few init scripts in /etc/init.d/ -- with things like gpsd missing from there. Are init scripts used to start apps/dameons?	20:05
Stskeeps	smithna: rc.sysinit does a lot of them and dbus activation	20:07
smithna	Stskeeps: don't know about dbus activation (off to google)	20:09
dm8tbr	last link for Stskeeps - I promise - http://sites.google.com/site/soyouwanttolearnalanguage/languagee-books4 - looks like a load of material :)	20:09
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Stskeeps	dm8tbr: ta	20:13
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smithna	Talking gps... while googling I noted that both gpsd and gypsy are installed. Some of the messages I came across suggest gypsy is the default solution -- but I couldn't find any place talking about how it connects to a gps device.	20:16
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smithna	Does anyone know how it does that?	20:16
Stskeeps	smithna: not offhand, maybe a good question for meego-dev@	20:16
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smithna	mailing list or channel? (forgive the ignores)	20:18
Stskeeps	mailing list	20:19
smithna	Ok, thanks	20:19
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GAN900	RST38h, wonder where your non-free stuff will end up for MeeGo.	20:40
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ScottishDuck	congrats on reaching beta folks	21:00
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mikhas	ScottishDuck, which beta?	21:15
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ScottishDuck	well, 1.0.90 is beta branch	21:15
Stskeeps	or as we call it, panic time	21:15
Stskeeps	;)	21:15
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ScottishDuck	yes, I can imagine Stskeeps	21:21
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Stskeeps	but there's always 1.2, can't say we did badly in n900 this time around	21:22
Stskeeps	:P	21:22
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ScottishDuck	can't believe I've not overclocked my n900 until now	21:28
ScottishDuck	this is so much better	21:28
Stskeeps	if you'd like to say bye bye to your screen or lower life expectancy of your n900	21:29
Stskeeps	:P	21:29
ScottishDuck	well	21:30
ScottishDuck	I'll probably have a new phone soon anyway	21:30
ScottishDuck	exploding phone could persuade me	21:30
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ali1234	NOLO keeps a log of every time you flash?	21:36
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Stskeeps	no	21:43
ali1234	what's this then? http://pastebin.com/Ua3Exhvm	21:44
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Stskeeps	that's CAL	21:53
Stskeeps	eraseblocks cause those kind of patterns with 'old' values	21:53
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ali1234	yeah. and there's basically no chance at all of it ever being overwritten by anything except another reflash, and it seems to allocate flash pages in sequential order	22:00
ali1234	end result: you have a nice log of everything you flashed, up to about the last 64 flashes	22:00
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Stskeeps	mm	22:09
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Miky-Kun	hi	22:13
Miky-Kun	I write from Italy, can someone help me?	22:13
Miky-Kun	^^	22:14
c3l	dont ask to ask :)	22:14
Miky-Kun	is anyone here?	22:14
CosmoHill	c3l: you sound just like our bot	22:14
Miky-Kun	ihih ^^'	22:14
CosmoHill	Miky-Kun: have some patience	22:14
Miky-Kun	so, can I ask a thing?	22:15
CosmoHill	yes	22:15
Miky-Kun	oh, ok	22:15
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Miky-Kun	I just installed Meego (actually love it). I checked for updates, and there were 3 of them. Updated the system, I decided to restart it. Unfortunately, when I turn on the pc (EEEpc 1008ha with winXP) now on the boot screen I can see two different Meegos ti start (just like if they are 2 different SO) and, of course, I also see the "other" control (this is WinXp). So, what's the problem?	22:19
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Miky-Kun	I just don't know what the problem actually is T_T	22:20
Miky-Kun	and I'm so desperate about it	22:21
Miky-Kun	I think this is not a good thing, you know..	22:21
CosmoHill	how did you update meego? did you use zypper?	22:21
c3l	if it behaves like any linux thats normal. I have like 6 enteries for my ubuntu; failsafe and different kernel versions, thats normal. but I should point out that ive never used meegoo so im not sure if its 'special' in this sense	22:22
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Miky-Kun	no no, I updated from system tools shortcut	22:22
CosmoHill	Miky-Kun: press tab and see what the difference between the two meego options is	22:22
Miky-Kun	Do I have to press tab when pc is starting?	22:23
CosmoHill	at the boot menu	22:23
CosmoHill	it should show you what the values are	22:23
Miky-Kun	ok, let's try!	22:23
CosmoHill	then press "esc' to go back	22:23
Miky-Kun	I'm here, I'm trying! ^^	22:23
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Miky-Kun	let's see...	22:25
Miky-Kun	ai I see:	22:25
Miky-Kun	*so I see:	22:25
Miky-Kun	Meego (2.6.33.5-24.1-netbook) and	22:26
Miky-Kun	Meego (2.6.33.3-11.1-netbook)	22:26
Miky-Kun	and, of course, "other"	22:27
CosmoHill	okay it looks like it's just an updated kernel, nothing to worry about	22:27
Miky-Kun	oh, so that's "normal"? I mean, nothing to work about?	22:27
CosmoHill	yeah it's fine	22:27
CosmoHill	basically if the new kernel doesn't work for whatever reason you've got the option of the older kernel	22:28
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CosmoHill	this is something I found out the hard way >.<	22:28
Miky-Kun	and which one do i have to choose to start?	22:28
CosmoHill	top one	22:28
CosmoHill	it's newer	22:28
Miky-Kun	ok!	22:28
Miky-Kun	You guys are amazing.. Problems that seem to be very hard, are very simple for you!	22:29
CosmoHill	:)	22:29
CosmoHill	Glade to have helpe	22:29
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CosmoHill	s/helpe/helped	22:29
CosmoHill	damn!	22:29
Miky-Kun	xD	22:29
Miky-Kun	oh, i forgot! Can I ask one more/last thing?	22:30
CosmoHill	or course	22:30
Miky-Kun	it's about hd	22:30
CosmoHill	keep going, you don't need our permission to ask questions	22:32
Miky-Kun	I installed MeeGo in a 5.5 gb partion of the own hd (160gb, in total). But it seems like I can't access to other two different partitions of the hd (one is 77 gb, other is about 80 gb) in which I have files I use. Is there anything I can do to see other partitions content?	22:33
Miky-Kun	cosmo you're a gentleman xD	22:33
CosmoHill	what formats are they in?	22:33
Miky-Kun	just a second xD	22:34
CosmoHill	NTFS for windows and EXT4 for linux?	22:34
Miky-Kun	yup. You're always right CosmoHill xD	22:35
CosmoHill	as far as I know Meego doesn't currently support either of them	22:35
CosmoHill	but I believe bugs / tricks are open on both of those issues	22:35
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Miky-Kun	so I guess I have to copy the whole of files into a usb pen and paste it in MeeGo's partition, right?	22:36
CosmoHill	if you have an SD card you could copy them onto that and use that as a common share	22:37
Miky-Kun	O_O of course!! Yeah, this is a GREAT IDEA I could never reach!!	22:38
CosmoHill	I'm assuming you have an SD card and you used it to install meego with?	22:38
smithna	Are there any tools to manage screen settngs for a display that doesn't provide EDID or DDC info? (see thread here for background: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/intel-gfx/2010-August/007907.html)	22:38
Miky-Kun	Nope, sorry! I installed Meego via usb pen T_T	22:39
CosmoHill	hehe, I had to use a DVD	22:39
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Miky-Kun	:D	22:40
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Miky-Kun	ok, thank you guys. Above all, my special thank goes to you CosmoHill!	22:40
CosmoHill	:3	22:40
Miky-Kun	You rock!!! Just like MeeGo! xD xD	22:40
CosmoHill	yay \o/	22:40
Miky-Kun	ok, time to leave! Thank you!! ^^	22:41
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smithna	BTW: this is using an IVI image	22:55
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CosmoHill	smithna: does it have a xorg.conf you can edit?	22:56
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smithna	It did... However, the only sections in it were for inputs (and it was better to have them removed)	22:57
CosmoHill	I'm not to sure meego has a GUI thing to set the resolution	22:58
* smithna guesses finding a resolution that works is going to be trial and error		22:59
CosmoHill	could you not look up the spec of the monitor?	22:59
smithna	I have the specs... But there's no way to use them to override what the driver is using	23:00
smithna	things like NoDDC or EDID "false" (something like that) are ignored by the driver	23:00
smithna	so you are stuck with whatever defaults xorg has for generic monitors.	23:01
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