| vlj | well with just one SS3 opcode, I don't think that boost regex performance are heavily increased... | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| ali1234 | i dont think last paste is accurate | 00:01 |
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| ali1234 | i think the one i made before is | 00:01 |
| ali1234 | the one that says only glibc has any optimization | 00:01 |
| ali1234 | and it looks like that is hand optmized, not from CFLAGS | 00:02 |
| ali1234 | i'm beginning to wonder if gcc -march=core2 even does anything at all | 00:03 |
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| vlj | where does mic save files in /tmp ?? | 00:09 |
| timeless | hey, thanks to mshaver and dawnfoster, http://mxr.meego.com/ is alive! | 00:12 |
| CosmoHill | I can hear the V-Festial :/ It's 3 miles away! | 00:17 |
| lcuk | RIAA are already on their way | 00:18 |
| * CosmoHill watches The Bourne Identity on ITV1 | 00:19 | |
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| lcuk | timeless, I didn't know it did incremental searching with feedback | 00:21 |
| lcuk | thats a clever bit of processing | 00:21 |
| timeless | ain't it? | 00:21 |
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| timeless | no js required either | 00:21 |
| timeless | .. turn js off and try :) | 00:21 |
| timeless | http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2164 <- the last comment there reminds me of nokia bugs :( | 00:22 |
| timeless | and yeah, the incremental stuff is indeed very cool, i'm very proud of it :) | 00:23 |
| lcuk | hmm timeless | 00:24 |
| lcuk | qt-creator is in meego itself? | 00:24 |
| lcuk | is that the runtime? | 00:25 |
| lcuk | ie can I use qt-creator on device? | 00:25 |
| timeless | if you're looking in /meego/, it's whatever crap i could find | 00:25 |
| lcuk | (i just searched for maemo and was having a look through | 00:25 |
| timeless | if you're looking in repo.meego.com | 00:25 |
| lcuk | I am using mxr.meego.com | 00:25 |
| timeless | then i'm assuming it's device targetted | 00:25 |
| lcuk | and just poking around | 00:25 |
| timeless | mxr has 2 meego reoots | 00:25 |
| timeless | s/re/r/ | 00:25 |
| infobot | timeless meant: mxr has 2 meego roots | 00:25 |
| lcuk | http://mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/search?string=maemo&find=&findi=&filter=^[^\0]*%24&hitlimit=&tree=repo.meego.com | 00:25 |
| timeless | ah, afaik that means it's in some device facing repo | 00:26 |
| lcuk | so is this the mxr for handset? | 00:26 |
| timeless | um, probably not | 00:26 |
| * timeless goes to look | 00:26 | |
| lcuk | I clicked the repo.meego.com link on mxr.meego.com | 00:26 |
| timeless | yeah | 00:27 |
| impje | in Qt-Creator, DISPLAY :2 doesn't seem to be right for my QEMU handset installation. How can I find the right settings? | 00:27 |
| timeless | um | 00:28 |
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| smhar | greetings | 00:28 |
| smhar | I have an N900 an I love it so much. There are so many things -small and big- missing but still, it is the best mobile/phone/tablet/computer or whatever name Nokia and others want to call it :-) | 00:30 |
| smhar | I have started learning Python just to develop for it, and -who knows- may start leaning C++ too. | 00:31 |
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| smhar | Now, my question is: I want to develop some applications that are missing or not complete in N900/maemo, but every body knows, it has a short life, I do not want my application to be dead by the time Meego is available and ready to replace it in N900. | 00:32 |
| timeless | um, don't assume such a short life :) | 00:33 |
| impje | smhar: It should be possible to port your Maemo-apps to MeeGo very easily | 00:34 |
| timeless | if you write for Qt, you should be able to run on both platforms | 00:34 |
| smhar | I know that meego will run the python+pyqt programs, but how to make sure that by the time my application is ready -since I am still learning- a better stock application is available and built-in | 00:35 |
| smhar | is there an image I can use in my computer to see/check/develop and cross check? | 00:36 |
| vlj | smhar: meego for netbook | 00:37 |
| vlj | or meego sdk | 00:38 |
| lcuk | hey timeless, you don't include filenames in the indexes? | 00:38 |
| smhar | and is there a road map for what is planned for N90 for mobiles | 00:38 |
| smhar | n900 | 00:38 |
| vlj | impje: it is the DISPLAY variable that identify your xephyr instance | 00:39 |
| smhar | vlj, what does the meego sdk include? | 00:39 |
| vlj | a prebuild image of meego | 00:39 |
| smhar | cause I am downloadin Nokia Qt SDK right now | 00:39 |
| vlj | well this is 2 differents things | 00:40 |
| vlj | meego sdk allows you to run an image of meego in your current linux environment | 00:40 |
| smhar | vlj, I know,. I mean what other things other that the meego image? | 00:40 |
| vlj | nokia qt sdk allows you to develop for symbian/maemo | 00:40 |
| vlj | well, I think that's all | 00:41 |
| lcuk | windows | 00:41 |
| vlj | but without it you can't test your meego map | 00:41 |
| lcuk | linux | 00:41 |
| lcuk | mac | 00:41 |
| smhar | vlj, so it has the image + emulator, or is it a vm/ vb image? | 00:41 |
| vlj | lcuk: it runs on windows too ? | 00:41 |
| lcuk | vlj, isn't Qt's old motto, code once, deploy anywhere.. | 00:41 |
| vlj | smhar: on linux it has just an image, which is chrooted | 00:41 |
| lcuk | or something similar | 00:41 |
| vlj | lcuk: true for nokia qt sdk | 00:42 |
| vlj | but I never saw meego-sdk for windows | 00:42 |
| vlj | it ships in a .run format :/ | 00:42 |
| impje | vlj: should I set the DISPLAY variable inside the running virtual MeeGo and then make sure that I use the same setting in Qt-Creator? (I am using qemu) | 00:42 |
| vlj | impje: no idea sorry. Try both ;) | 00:43 |
| * lcuk shrugs | 00:43 | |
| vlj | I just know that running meego in linux with a manually launched Xephyr needed shared DISPLAY with host os | 00:43 |
| vlj | (with meego sdk) | 00:43 |
| vlj | but meego sdk does use chroot I think | 00:44 |
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| impje | vlj: Thanks. I'll just play mess around with the settings some more | 00:47 |
| smhar | is meego handset what megoo for mobile phones is called? | 00:48 |
| vlj | yup | 00:49 |
| vlj | (brb) | 00:52 |
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| timeless | s/megoo/meego/ | 00:57 |
| CosmoHill | Smeegol! | 00:57 |
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| * CosmoHill looks at the Nokia E52 | 01:22 | |
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| CosmoHill | would Meego ever work on a ARM 11 368Mhz processor with 128MB of RAM | 01:31 |
| lbt | how much swap :) | 01:32 |
| CosmoHill | erm | 01:32 |
| CosmoHill | it has 256MB NAND | 01:32 |
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| CosmoHill | I have a Nokia 6220c complete with ill-fitting case and electrical tape | 01:33 |
| CosmoHill | Just been looking at a E52 | 01:34 |
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| ali1234 | latest results -D: http://pastebin.com/LQRXWhbZ | 01:49 |
| ali1234 | most of it looks like not-executable code, i think -d is the way to go | 01:50 |
| lbt | ali1234: watcha up to? | 01:50 |
| ali1234 | lbt: scanning for unsupported opcodes | 01:51 |
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| lbt | so identifying packages in the released OBS that use ssse3 | 01:51 |
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| ali1234 | packages on the meego repos, yeah | 01:51 |
| lbt | mega | 01:51 |
| ali1234 | i think that using -D just generates a load of false positives | 01:52 |
| ali1234 | objdump -D that is | 01:52 |
| ali1234 | with -d, the only packages that show up are glibc, and things that static link glibc | 01:52 |
| ali1234 | and the only optmized things in glibc seem to be hand coded | 01:52 |
| lbt | so if we can identify those packages that actually have/use ssse3 then we can potentially enable ssse3 for *only* those in MeeGo core | 01:52 |
| lbt | and just rebuild variants without in the community OBS ? | 01:53 |
| ali1234 | so my theory is that gcc never generates ssse3/sse4 opcodes | 01:53 |
| ali1234 | or iow -march=core2 is meaningless | 01:53 |
| lbt | well, thiago_home found some | 01:54 |
| lbt | if you can identify that package list that would be very useful | 01:54 |
| ali1234 | perhaps my method is not good enough | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | it does check every elf binary in every rpm in core though | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | 1.0.1 core that is | 01:56 |
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| lbt | maybe ask in #gcc ? | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | not a bad idea | 01:57 |
| ali1234 | i need to figure out how to make objdump use the debugging symbols, that might help | 01:58 |
| ali1234 | a lot of the opcodes can't be accurately traced to a function, if that function is not exported, i guess | 01:58 |
| ali1234 | the only thing i am absolutely certain of is that glibc has ssse3 instructions in it | 02:01 |
| ali1234 | but they might be guarded | 02:01 |
| lbt | yeah, that's trivial to rebuild :) | 02:08 |
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| lcuk | ali1234, you mention -D causing false positives, -D to what tool? | 02:09 |
| ali1234 | lcuk objdump | 02:09 |
| CosmoHill | ali1234: cool | 02:10 |
| CosmoHill | keep up the good work | 02:10 |
| lcuk | hmm ali1234 why are you disassembling all sections in the first place? | 02:10 |
| lbt | ali1234: glibc has : glibc-atom-memory-string-opt-tillto-20100226.patch | 02:10 |
| ali1234 | lcuk i dunno, why not? | 02:10 |
| lcuk | binaries are built up of lots of data hunks | 02:11 |
| lcuk | which have nothing to do with opcodes, but can look like it | 02:11 |
| ali1234 | lbt does it define stuff like strcmp_ssse3() | 02:11 |
| lcuk | which may be where the false positives are coming from | 02:11 |
| ali1234 | lcuk yeah i know this, and i am fairly sure that's what is happening | 02:11 |
| ali1234 | lcuk but when i run with -d *nothing* is optmized except glibc | 02:11 |
| ali1234 | not X, not Qt, not anything | 02:12 |
| lcuk | :) | 02:12 |
| ali1234 | in about 10 minutes i'll show you the new log of that | 02:12 |
| * lcuk nods | 02:12 | |
| ali1234 | a full run takes about 30 minutes on quad core (it runs checks in parallel) | 02:12 |
| lcuk | what you need to do is to build something you *KNOW* uses a few of these instrucitons | 02:12 |
| lbt | ali1234: http://pastebin.com/UhVwN0UA | 02:12 |
| lcuk | inserted with inline asm | 02:12 |
| lcuk | so you can validate | 02:12 |
| lcuk | ? | 02:12 |
| ali1234 | lbt memmove, yeah that's one that shows up on -d | 02:13 |
| ali1234 | this patch has lots of hand coded asm :) | 02:13 |
| lbt | so /me revises trivial to "not that hard I hope" | 02:13 |
| ali1234 | __bcopy_ssse3 is another one that -d finds | 02:13 |
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| vlj | well empathy actually supports irc | 02:14 |
| ali1234 | lcuk i know that -d is finding *some* of the opcodes, question is, does it find all? | 02:15 |
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| ali1234 | -D finds more but some of them are obvious false positives | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | question is, are *all* of them false? | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | i think the answer is yes, personally, but i have no proof :) | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | (yes to both) | 02:15 |
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| ali1234 | lbt: that patch is pretty much exactly what i expected to find given what objdump tells me | 02:16 |
| ali1234 | and if i am correct, the hand coded stuff is the only incompatible stuff in all of meego core 1.0.1 | 02:17 |
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| lcuk | does that mean that gcc itself has support for the instructions but finds no mechanism to actually use them within its optimiser phases? | 02:18 |
| lcuk | or imply rather | 02:18 |
| lbt | a process to allow us to identify "contaminated" (!) packages would be great... it'll hugely speed up building a community respin | 02:18 |
| lcuk | no proof yet as you say | 02:18 |
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| ali1234 | lcuk yeah it implies that | 02:18 |
| lcuk | that would make sense in a way | 02:19 |
| ali1234 | maybe gcc 4.5 has better optimization routines for core2 | 02:20 |
| lcuk | do the SSSE3 instrucitons get scratched and cleaned at any time | 02:20 |
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| lcuk | I am thinking nope | 02:20 |
| ScottishDuck | I don't recall it adding any | 02:20 |
| ali1234 | i would dl meego daily bins but i'm getting close to my download limit after downloading all the source and half of fedora and opensuse packages while playing with OBS :) | 02:20 |
| ali1234 | lcuk i dunno what you mean by "scratched and cleaned" | 02:21 |
| lcuk | ali1234, lbt, even if its only in glib, the implication of it being in (indirect) use in every application is confirmed by that patch in memmove, a heavily utilised function and a good place for that kind of optimisation | 02:21 |
| lcuk | ali1234, if gcc were to randomly use registers without maintaining an allocation table it would stomp on its own code generated | 02:22 |
| ali1234 | i guess, it's not something i usually worry about :) | 02:22 |
| lcuk | when doing compilation it stored a list of registers its using and does the work based on moving things in and out of it respecting them | 02:22 |
| lcuk | yeah, if you do inline asm, you have to tell the compiler which registers you are using etc | 02:22 |
| lbt | lcuk: yes - but you'd expect glibc to be capable of dynamic cpu identification | 02:23 |
| lcuk | lbt, potentially, but that implies a jump table or dynamic checking on every instruction call | 02:23 |
| lcuk | again suboptimal | 02:23 |
| lcuk | (i mean jumptable within the already existing jumptable from outside) | 02:24 |
| lbt | no.. it implies an "on load" change to the table | 02:24 |
| ali1234 | self patching code :) | 02:24 |
| ali1234 | anyway given it generates symbols like xxx_ssse3 i'd say it is doing that | 02:24 |
| lcuk | self modifying code is banned i nthe 1992 world treaty or something | 02:24 |
| ali1234 | but no guarantee that the non-ssse3 version exists in the binary | 02:24 |
| lbt | like I say... rebuilding glibc should be no biggy | 02:25 |
| lcuk | lbt, it would need 2 jumptables, one external as you are thinking for the library itself, and another for internal calls | 02:25 |
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| lcuk | and it wouldnt be able to do inlines etc | 02:25 |
| ali1234 | this is the latest report with -d : http://pastebin.com/EnX9EnY1 | 02:25 |
| lbt | lcuk: OK ... I don't go that deep into compilers | 02:25 |
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| * lbt has spent all night building and documenting debian clients on opensuse Xen so we can setup more community VMs | 02:26 | |
| lbt | and a community admin trac/wiki | 02:26 |
| lbt | which no-one will ever see :( | 02:27 |
| * lcuk gets lbt a beer | 02:28 | |
| lcuk | share the links in different places | 02:28 |
| lcuk | and make sure people see them | 02:28 |
| lcuk | (not necessarily thinking here :P) | 02:28 |
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| ali1234 | latest version of my scripts if you want to see how it works, or run it yourself: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/cpucheck-0.2.tar.gz | 02:29 |
| lbt | lcuk: --> msg | 02:29 |
| ali1234 | supplied scripts to check single file, whole rpm, or whole directory full of rpms | 02:29 |
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| CosmoHill | bye | 04:00 |
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| quetzalzun | Hi all. | 10:52 |
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| amjad | hi quet | 10:58 |
| quetzalzun | hi amjad, I'm keeping an eye on moblin and a litle on meego, more in mailing list than here | 11:01 |
| quetzalzun | It supuse I am doing a communication research about ways of doing free software | 11:02 |
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| amjad | ok,but intel is going meego way, so not too sure if moblin will be maintained | 11:02 |
| quetzalzun | I dont it will, but I am doing the analysis abot moblin | 11:05 |
| quetzalzun | sorry, | 11:05 |
| quetzalzun | I dont think moblin will be still be maintained | 11:05 |
| amjad | ok | 11:05 |
| quetzalzun | but my research is about moblin | 11:06 |
| amjad | so what you want to know from meego folks??, | 11:06 |
| lbt | I don't think that's really correct | 11:07 |
| lbt | maemo and moblin merged and got renamed meego | 11:07 |
| lbt | moblin is not "dead" | 11:07 |
| lbt | it is alive and well ... | 11:07 |
| lbt | from an OSS point of view | 11:07 |
| quetzalzun | I have some questions about the relations between developers, vendors and users. | 11:07 |
| lbt | (ie much of the code traces back to moblin) ... of course if you're talking marketing... whole different story | 11:08 |
| lbt | a lot of us have questions about that trinity :) | 11:09 |
| quetzalzun | I think is both, marketing and code development | 11:09 |
| lbt | you're wrong :) | 11:09 |
| lbt | the name has changed... the code changelogs are continuous from moblin to meego | 11:10 |
| quetzalzun | and yes, I wondering wich kind of beneffits get each goup with the interaction with others | 11:10 |
| lbt | no more releases will be made using the moblin name | 11:10 |
| lbt | vendors get a very cost effective OS | 11:10 |
| quetzalzun | BTW sorry for my english | 11:10 |
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| lbt | developers get paid to work on it | 11:11 |
| lbt | users get the benefits of lower costs since the work is co-operative and has no artificial "microsoft tax" | 11:11 |
| lbt | "virtuous circle" | 11:12 |
| quetzalzun | and Intel and Nokia? | 11:15 |
| quetzalzun | how an FOSS project benefit them? | 11:15 |
| lbt | just vendors with strategic vision | 11:15 |
| lbt | it already does | 11:15 |
| lbt | lets say 200 people work on MeeGo | 11:15 |
| quetzalzun | ok | 11:16 |
| lbt | Nokia may pay for ~90 but gets the benefit of 200...that's cheap labour :) | 11:16 |
| lbt | (a few are volunteers or from smaller partners) | 11:16 |
| quetzalzun | can we count there in those smaller partners to trolltech? | 11:18 |
| lbt | They also know that MeeGo isn't designed to be obsolete and to force (licensed + costly) upgrade cycles like some OSes we know | 11:18 |
| lbt | not really ... nokia bought trolltech :) | 11:18 |
| lbt | but in many ways that was just another way of hiring more developers | 11:18 |
| lbt | IVI has people working on MeeGo | 11:19 |
| lbt | that's an automotive consortium | 11:19 |
| lbt | look at the sponsorship/partners pages for more companies | 11:20 |
| lbt | but that's the basic model | 11:20 |
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| quetzalzun | vendors contribute both with financial sponsorship and people? code? | 11:22 |
| lbt | yes | 11:22 |
| lbt | and, importantly, by adding to the 'weight' of meego | 11:22 |
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| lbt | demonstrating viability increases the percieved value of MeeGo to other potential vendors | 11:23 |
| quetzalzun | something like increase the value of a product with users | 11:23 |
| lbt | similar ... but that case is based on predicted revenue streams | 11:24 |
| lbt | this is based on predicted value | 11:24 |
| lbt | slightly different | 11:24 |
| quetzalzun | nice | 11:24 |
| Stskeeps | lbt, i think i am close to having bootstrapped non-ssse3 meego | 11:25 |
| lbt | neat... are you on the maemo obs? | 11:25 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 11:25 |
| Stskeeps | home:stskeeps:ssse3_bootstrap | 11:25 |
| lbt | ali1234 was working on identifying it last night | 11:26 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 11:26 |
| Stskeeps | there's a bit of circular dependancies, so i've temporarily disabled gcc and glibc builds | 11:26 |
| quetzalzun | thanks lbt, I will think a little about this ;) | 11:26 |
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| lbt | I could do with some opinions on the "Trunk" project layout | 11:26 |
| Stskeeps | also, there's something wrong with your ssl tunneling | 11:26 |
| Stskeeps | it peers very often for larger loads | 11:26 |
| lbt | quetzalzun: np :) .... posting something to the ml if you write it up would be cook | 11:26 |
| quetzalzun | shure | 11:27 |
| Stskeeps | couldn't do a client-side copy of vim or even commit it manually | 11:27 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: for maemo obs | 11:27 |
| lbt | X-Fade is the nw guy there | 11:27 |
| Stskeeps | k | 11:27 |
| Stskeeps | just noting it :) | 11:27 |
| lbt | he's had some issues and iirc put varnish in to help | 11:28 |
| lbt | the meego one is a bit more straightforward (for now) | 11:28 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 11:28 |
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| lbt | is it causing real problems or just niggles? | 11:28 |
| Stskeeps | can't upload vim, but not an important package for build (..) | 11:29 |
| lbt | what error ? | 11:29 |
| Stskeeps | sec | 11:29 |
| * Stskeeps tries to upload im again | 11:29 | |
| Stskeeps | vim | 11:29 |
| lbt | aside... I noticed the gcc chat yesterday... that looks evil | 11:30 |
| Stskeeps | the patch? | 11:31 |
| lbt | I may have misunderstood | 11:31 |
| Stskeeps | it can be done in a better way, yes, but baselining is a normal practice | 11:31 |
| lbt | but Meego core gcc forces ssse3? | 11:31 |
| Stskeeps | even on arm | 11:31 |
| lbt | or defaults? | 11:31 |
| Stskeeps | that's a good question | 11:31 |
| Stskeeps | can you do -mno-ssse3? :P | 11:31 |
| lbt | this stuff makes me really wonder about hidden agendas | 11:32 |
| lbt | although I could just be paranoid | 11:32 |
| ali1234 | i don't think so | 11:33 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: it's a fairly normal practice to baseline similar to this, but patch is formed in a way so you can't even do -mcpu=atom | 11:34 |
| ali1234 | it's never been explained why they decided not to base meego off some other distro | 11:34 |
| ali1234 | as it stands, meego is not even self-hosting | 11:35 |
| Stskeeps | um, sure it is | 11:35 |
| lbt | maybe we should enhance the patch to allow for deselection... functionally the same but negatable | 11:35 |
| ali1234 | you've compiled every single meego rpm on a real machine running meego? (not inside OBS) | 11:35 |
| ali1234 | (since you'll note meego does not have OBS packages) | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: that might simply be cos OBS includes packages normal build dep doesn't.. | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | scratchbox syndrome ;) | 11:36 |
| ali1234 | that's not the point | 11:36 |
| pupnik_ | hows meego pulseaudio going | 11:36 |
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| lbt | ali1234: OBS only uses meego packages in the chroots | 11:37 |
| lbt | it is, by definition, self hosting | 11:37 |
| ali1234 | lbt: so when meego has an OBS package, meego will be self hosting | 11:37 |
| lbt | a standard meego image may not be build-essential complete | 11:37 |
| lbt | no | 11:37 |
| lbt | OBS is not needed to build meego | 11:37 |
| ali1234 | maybe that's true | 11:38 |
| lbt | obs is nothing but a chroot hoster | 11:38 |
| ali1234 | there is no current tested and documented method that anybody can use to build all of meego | 11:38 |
| lbt | heh.... | 11:38 |
| Stskeeps | ...........................................................................SSL Error: (104, 'Connection reset by peer') | 11:38 |
| lbt | hmm | 11:38 |
| lbt | timeout...? | 11:39 |
| pupnik_ | most straightforward way to implement that is script modules maintained by the people who have built the current packages | 11:39 |
| pupnik_ | imo | 11:39 |
| ali1234 | if they based on another distro this would not be a problem since that distro's tools could be used | 11:39 |
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| pupnik_ | 'here are the commands i used' | 11:39 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: dunno | 11:39 |
| ali1234 | but if any tom dick and harry could do it, then it would be really easy to run it on competitor's hardware | 11:39 |
| pupnik_ | at least you can get compliance/participation when you make i simple enough | 11:39 |
| lbt | pupnik_: and that's what we're aiming for | 11:40 |
| lbt | X-Fade is offline atm | 11:40 |
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| ali1234 | so i have to ask, what do they actually gain from going alone? | 11:41 |
| pupnik_ | if you have to track meta information, you really need to demonstrate need. i hate people who have to architect everything | 11:41 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: what distro does fedora base off? :P | 11:41 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: uh... red hat? | 11:41 |
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| TermanaN900 | lol | 11:41 |
| Stskeeps | and redhat? | 11:41 |
| lbt | ali1234: can you see where this is going... | 11:41 |
| Stskeeps | besides that, rebuilding meego is a matter of importing prjconf, binary packages, source packages | 11:42 |
| ali1234 | red hat has been around for 17 years, and has a very mature toolset | 11:42 |
| lbt | ali1234 stop saying "well, if *I* was solving this problem I wouldn't start from here" | 11:42 |
| lbt | we are where we are | 11:43 |
| ali1234 | heh, no, nokia and intel are where they are | 11:43 |
| lbt | if you don't like it then invent a time-machine and fix it | 11:43 |
| TermanaN900 | Besides, Fedora isnt Red Hat | 11:43 |
| ali1234 | if you choose to join them, that's up to you | 11:43 |
| TermanaN900 | Red Hat pulls from Fedora | 11:43 |
| * lbt checks what chan ali1234 is in... oh, #meego | 11:43 | |
| ali1234 | and you can say "well if you;re not with us you're against us" if you want | 11:44 |
| lbt | and given the work you've done on obs etc I assumed you were "we" | 11:44 |
| ali1234 | but intel are saying the same thing, that is, when they are not talking about how great the meego community is going to be | 11:44 |
| lbt | whereas you'd rather be a doomsayer... sure.. that's easy | 11:44 |
| ali1234 | i'm not saying the project is doomed | 11:45 |
| ali1234 | i think intel and nokia will do well with it | 11:45 |
| lbt | http://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/7855 | 11:45 |
| ali1234 | but i think they'll continue to shut out ... outsiders | 11:45 |
| pupnik_ | i think there's still room for meego to do something *more* developer friendly | 11:45 |
| lbt | pupnik_: err... yeah! | 11:45 |
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| lbt | frankly I think intel are shooting meego in the foot | 11:46 |
| lbt | it's not fatal but it bloody hurts | 11:46 |
| ali1234 | if meego was serious about working with the community, they would work with it, instead of trying to build a new one | 11:46 |
| pupnik_ | and that could be the draw for some - if the subsystems are high-performance, developers can get better results on meego than android | 11:46 |
| MohammadAG51 | ali1234, off topic but weren't you discussing psx emulators and hildon-desktop two months ago in #maemo? | 11:46 |
| pupnik_ | at least games | 11:46 |
| ali1234 | MohammadAG51: yeah | 11:46 |
| pupnik_ | i fear there may be something of a mhz war developing in the phone arena | 11:47 |
| ali1234 | MohammadAG51: have they figured out how to make them run full speed yet? | 11:47 |
| MohammadAG51 | not that i know of, but that's off topic here ;) | 11:47 |
| ali1234 | not if you port it to meego | 11:47 |
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| pupnik_ | it should be ported to meego: not offtopic | 11:47 |
| pupnik_ | but first imho when the gpu portion is running | 11:48 |
| TermanaN900 | The answer is simple - if you don't like what the community is doing with MeeGo, you have no obligation to be here or participate | 11:48 |
| pupnik_ | since we require the damn opengl anyway :| | 11:48 |
| pupnik_ | i wouldn't mind so much rendering via software if all transitions and compositing were user-disablable | 11:49 |
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| ali1234 | TermanaN900: which community are you talking about exactly? | 11:49 |
| TermanaN900 | ali1234, the MeeGo community. This community. The people here contributing to MeeGo | 11:50 |
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| ali1234 | TermanaN900: so you mean intel and nokia then... | 11:51 |
| ali1234 | the "official" community | 11:51 |
| * MohammadAG51 facesmacks | 11:51 | |
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| TermanaN900 | ali1234, no. I mean the community. | 11:51 |
| TermanaN900 | Intel and Nokia employees are apart of this community | 11:52 |
| ali1234 | so whom outside of intel and nokia has contributed to meego? | 11:52 |
| Stskeeps | <- | 11:52 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:52 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: aren't you paid by nokia? | 11:52 |
| MohammadAG51 | LOL | 11:52 |
| ali1234 | i thought they hired you? | 11:52 |
| Jaffa | TermanaN900: "Intel and Nokia are apart from this community" or "Intel and Nokia are a part of this community"? ;-) | 11:52 |
| Stskeeps | was under my maemo.org work | 11:52 |
| TermanaN900 | Jaffa, lol sorry the second one :P | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: as well as people sending patches, etc | 11:53 |
| * lbt <---- | 11:53 | |
| Stskeeps | things are picking up. | 11:53 |
| lbt | I have paid and unpaid contributions to meego | 11:53 |
| ali1234 | ok, so what about all the people who contributed directly to the kernel? are they part of the meego community? | 11:53 |
| lbt | no | 11:53 |
| ali1234 | what about the people who worked on Qt before meego even existed? | 11:53 |
| lbt | are they part of the Ubuntu community? | 11:54 |
| ali1234 | i don't know, ask canonical | 11:54 |
| ali1234 | they decide who is part of their community | 11:54 |
| lbt | are debian contributors to the kernel part of the pulseaudio community? | 11:54 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: it is an interesting problematique. to some extent, they're doing the right thing - if someone wants to take a shovel, create a non-SSSE3 they are able to do this. once there's a substansial reason to have non-SSSE3 SDK defaults (cos of an installable base), - they can't deny patches to fix 'blockers'.. but why would a manager from OSTC approve they spend money on something that would actually sell less atom processors? ... | 11:55 |
| Stskeeps | ... (non-SSSE3 build target on build.meego.com).. | 11:55 |
| ali1234 | so in order to be in the meego community, you have to have patches submitted directly to meego? | 11:55 |
| ali1234 | presumably they have to be accepted to | 11:55 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: OTOH that's an Intel argument... not a MeeGo one | 11:55 |
| ali1234 | which means that the maintainer of the software dictates who is in the community | 11:55 |
| ali1234 | and guess who that is | 11:55 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: and I think people get their hats confused | 11:56 |
| ali1234 | i'm not saying there is anything wrong with this | 11:56 |
| ali1234 | it just ... is | 11:56 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: yes and no - MeeGo seems to center around the feature being assigned to a person who then makes sure there's resources to get things done | 11:56 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: if nvidia wants to sponsor build capacity cos meego IT says they need that for non-SSSE3, that should be possible | 11:56 |
| lbt | I agreee - but the success (and requirements) of meego depends on openness too | 11:56 |
| Stskeeps | if someone wants to donate extra build space for community/everyone to work on non-SSSE3, that should be possible too | 11:57 |
| ali1234 | when you say "you're either with us or against us" you are saying "you're not welcome in this community unless you use meego the way we tell you" | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | but nothing in life is free | 11:57 |
| lbt | I think the problem I see is that when they submit a patch that prevents that being used elsewhere | 11:57 |
| lbt | "all patches should be able to go upstream" | 11:57 |
| lbt | "no meego specific patches" | 11:57 |
| lbt | and ffs ... prjconf? | 11:58 |
| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: hey, could mxr.meego.com be added to the topic? :) | 11:58 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: no meego specific patches is impossible and i haven't seen that policy.. for kernel it makes sense | 11:58 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: too full already, get it linked on wiki or meego.com somehow | 11:59 |
| lbt | I thought it was a goal | 11:59 |
| lbt | not a constraint | 11:59 |
| lbt | in principle we should have a minimal patch load | 11:59 |
| lbt | one of the metrics I'll be looking at will be patch load | 12:00 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 12:00 |
| w00t_ | I wonder if the Qt patches have been cleaned up | 12:02 |
| w00t_ | there were some pretty odd ones in there when I looked shortly after the initial release | 12:02 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: perhaps it's time to ask if there's an actual market and vendors interested in non-SSSE3 and why | 12:06 |
| lbt | my original arguement was that non-ssse3 was about ensuring minimum barrier to entry for community | 12:06 |
| ali1234 | do AMD even make mobile chips? | 12:06 |
| lbt | not about commercial viability | 12:07 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: right | 12:07 |
| * Stskeeps ponders | 12:07 | |
| Stskeeps | so, nvidia ion isn't a problem cos that's an atom processor | 12:08 |
| sx0n|home | is there list of supported chipsets ? | 12:08 |
| lbt | bbiab | 12:08 |
| Stskeeps | via nano has SSSE3.. | 12:09 |
| odin_ | how much ram do meego OBS worked need each ? | 12:10 |
| sx0n|home | imo other issue is supported (intel) graphics, or are all supported. | 12:10 |
| ali1234 | odin_: i ran 2 workers on 2GB of ram and 512MB swap partitions each | 12:11 |
| odin_ | s/worked/workers/ i.e. are there some packages needing gobs of ram ? | 12:11 |
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| ali1234 | i compiled gcc OK in that | 12:11 |
| odin_ | I have 3 x dual quad core HP DL360/380 in data centre to attack building of i686/n8x0, run stuff but 2 are mostly idle, if I can get workers down to 1Gb ram each I can prolly get a farm of 6 up somehow | 12:14 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: anyway, the ssse3 issue is not one of selling devices without ssse3, it's the fact that my development machine can run ubuntu, fedora, windows, android, even meego arm - all at the same time. but not meego x86 | 12:15 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: the question is however how generic the circumstances is - i mean, i don't really compile platform stuf locally | 12:15 |
| Stskeeps | you get used to working straight with obs | 12:15 |
| ali1234 | OBS is no use if i can't run the binaries in gdb on a decent fast machine | 12:16 |
| MohammadAG51 | hmm, how long does meego usually take to boot up | 12:17 |
| Stskeeps | what do you see on screen? | 12:17 |
| odin_ | maybe intel can provide kernel assisted SSSE3 support ? there is no reason why the General Protection Fault can't be handed off the qemu-ssse3 to do the work and then control passed back to the application | 12:18 |
| MohammadAG51 | a _ | 12:18 |
| MohammadAG51 | which just scrolled down | 12:18 |
| MohammadAG51 | X is starting i'd say | 12:18 |
| MohammadAG51 | started, this takes time... | 12:19 |
| odin_ | to be honest with, if you know about Linux signal handling you can trap the SIGILL yourself in the application and emulate the SSSE3 instructions :) | 12:19 |
| ali1234 | odin_: yes the instructions can be emulated in kernel | 12:19 |
| ali1234 | or in a library | 12:19 |
| MohammadAG51 | Stskeeps, is xterm broken on meego atm? | 12:19 |
| ali1234 | i don't really care as long as the x86 SDK includes such a library to make it work | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | MohammadAG51: possible | 12:20 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: i'm looking at sseplus by AMD | 12:20 |
| odin_ | so anyone know of an open source SSSE3 implementation ? I could probably explain how to whip it into a signal handler | 12:21 |
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| MohammadAG51 | Stskeeps, and I'm assuming it has an ssh server installed? | 12:22 |
| Stskeeps | MohammadAG51: right | 12:22 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: http://developer.amd.com/cpu/Libraries/sseplus/Pages/default.aspx might be a start | 12:22 |
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| sx0n|home | odin_: could it be done by compiler? http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/i386-and-x86_002d64-Options.html | 12:24 |
| odin_ | if someone wants to package up a bunch of functions implementing SSSE3, like hand optimized assembler, I will both confirm SIGILL works like SIGSEGV and do you a proof of concept which you can polish up | 12:24 |
| ali1234 | there is already a kernel patch that can do this | 12:25 |
| odin_ | yes a mix of compiler and assembler, some *.S files and *.c files | 12:25 |
| ali1234 | http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0206.3/0631.html | 12:26 |
| odin_ | I don't know, only know that it is possible from both kernel and user-space | 12:26 |
| ali1234 | can you look at GCC? see what code would get optimized into SSSE3 calls, then write it, and compile it with/without -mssse3 | 12:27 |
| odin_ | that link relates to linux 2.4 from 2002 ? | 12:27 |
| ali1234 | odin_: yeah it emulates 486 instructions on 386 | 12:27 |
| odin_ | ali1234, yes yes ^^^ this I have put the question to gcc-list and intend to spend time on | 12:27 |
| ali1234 | given the results of scanning for ssse3, it looks like gcc never generates any of it anyway | 12:29 |
| odin_ | ali1234, I need to research and understand the responses and also the background reading about how other platforms do it.. I noticed recently binaries have an ELF section .note.ABI-tag and also want to understand this purpose | 12:29 |
| Stskeeps | there is technically no reason why a kernel couldn't catch SSSE3 instructions. | 12:30 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: the problem isn't catching them, it's what to do after you caught one | 12:30 |
| odin_ | yes yes this is my belief too and I think the intel developers on the linux are trying to defend -mtune=atom for performance and are getting confused with -march=ssse3 | 12:30 |
| ali1234 | i don't think they are confused | 12:30 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: i don't think they're confused, there's a benefit to ssse3. | 12:31 |
| odin_ | nor do I, more like selective obfuscation of the problem | 12:31 |
| ali1234 | i don't normally attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, but intel guys are smarter than that | 12:31 |
| ali1234 | which unfortunately only leaves malice :( | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | or choice | 12:31 |
| odin_ | what applications modify the SIGILL handler ? I bet almost none, so it maybe possible to effect a solution in userspace first | 12:31 |
| sx0n|home | linux needs good hw supporty. | 12:31 |
| ali1234 | yes, another choice which cannot be explained given the existence of other options | 12:32 |
| odin_ | which can be setup by a modified dynamic linker for every executable, this would not quite be as invisible as a kernel based one but would allow rapid development and testing to then seek to move it to the kernel | 12:32 |
| odin_ | the objection here is simply to interoperability problems due to the quick and dirty method to enforce SSSE3, I still regard the desire for maximum optimization to be a worthy goal and Intel just need guiding in a better direction | 12:35 |
| ali1234 | no, it's clear they have drawn a line in the sand and will not discuss the issue in a sensible way | 12:36 |
| odin_ | then we make it damage their pockets somewhat | 12:36 |
| odin_ | control the SDK | 12:36 |
| ali1234 | um... what do you mean? | 12:36 |
| odin_ | control the media | 12:37 |
| w00t_ | glwt | 12:37 |
| Stskeeps | now, who's the malice using ones here? | 12:37 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:37 |
| ali1234 | you're crazier than me if you think a bunch of nerds have more control over the media than intel | 12:37 |
| odin_ | there is nothing stopping rolling a fixed SDK in a separate OBS, but this SDK will work for everyone and getting developers to use that and not intels one | 12:38 |
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| odin_ | since it is the developers complaining they cant run non-SSSE3 to develop | 12:38 |
| ali1234 | there is one thing: they can just say "you can't call it meego" and then nobody will ever hear about it | 12:38 |
| odin_ | great, run the media on that one | 12:39 |
| ali1234 | i can't see it happening | 12:39 |
| odin_ | understood | 12:39 |
| Stskeeps | on the other hand, VIA nano benefits a lot from this | 12:39 |
| Stskeeps | they have ssse3 | 12:40 |
| ali1234 | i want meego to use ssse3 on the actual device | 12:40 |
| ali1234 | everybody does | 12:40 |
| ali1234 | no point having that silicon doing nothing | 12:40 |
| odin_ | agreed, no one is saying don't have SSSE3 optimization capability | 12:40 |
| Stskeeps | can i ask what kind of developer you are? | 12:40 |
| ali1234 | i'm the kind of developer who fixes bugs in other people's stuff | 12:40 |
| Phazorx | morning... can someone help me figure out why certain keystrokes are not seen by X but work fine in console (after being dealt with setkeycodes)? | 12:41 |
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| sx0n|home | maybe intel just have short them interest and in long run proprietary solutions are not so affordable. | 12:41 |
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| sx0n|home | after the market has saturated | 12:42 |
| odin_ | anyhows we are getting closer to the answer to the question that is still not proven, "Can you measure SSSE3 optimization speed ups in General Purpose Code?" | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: ok, so, you'd actually be happy enough with a platform SDK hack that emulates SSSE3? | 12:43 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: totally, yeah | 12:43 |
| ali1234 | as long as it doesnt make meego slower on my 3.2ghz workstation, than it is on my netbook | 12:43 |
| Stskeeps | what happens when qemu-kvm encounters ssse3? | 12:43 |
| ali1234 | afaik it raises a SIGILL inside the vm? | 12:44 |
| Stskeeps | does it technically have to? | 12:44 |
| ali1234 | no idea | 12:44 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, virtualization gets SIGILL quite often, from some things | 12:44 |
| ali1234 | qemu can hide host extensions... no reason it can't add them too i guess | 12:44 |
| ali1234 | i'd rather the "fix" didn't use kvm though. i like to run virtualbox, and kvm is incompatible with it, afaict | 12:45 |
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| ali1234 | although virtualbox is probably dead now thanks to oracle... | 12:47 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder if you can do qemu-kvm -cpu host,+ssse3 | 12:49 |
| ali1234 | only if host cpu supports it, currently | 12:49 |
| odin_ | SSEplus is Apache v2 license, I wonder if that is compatible with GPL v2 | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: sure? | 12:50 |
| ali1234 | http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.qemu/72324 | 12:50 |
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| ali1234 | seems to imply it will check the host cpu for that feature, and die if it is not found | 12:50 |
| Stskeeps | mm | 12:50 |
| odin_ | that would be funny an SSEplus library that AMD optimized (I presume for AMD devices) being used to provide developer happiness with Intel MeeGo | 12:51 |
| ali1234 | or in that case, die even if it is found :) | 12:51 |
| ali1234 | odin_: surely they made that lib exactly for this purpose? | 12:51 |
| odin_ | I have not read all the details its a userspace library to provide proof of concept and assist the development process AFAIKS | 12:52 |
| ali1234 | this whole mess makes me want to move away from x86 entirely :( | 12:54 |
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| odin_ | good luck with that one, I'm more for the binutils/gcc approach of marking executables/dsos with ISA requirements, this I see is future proof and provides me with the goal (of getting an immediate error back from the dynamic-linker when attempting to run a program that doesn't really work on my host system) | 12:57 |
| sx0n|home | compared to arm development x86 is a breeze | 12:57 |
| ali1234 | sx0n|home: i haven't had that problem, what makes you say it? | 12:58 |
| sx0n|home | i don't like sb1 so much | 12:58 |
| ali1234 | well that problem is caused by you using x86 | 12:58 |
| ali1234 | not by arm | 12:58 |
| ali1234 | if you were developing native you wouldn't need sb | 12:58 |
| sx0n|home | yep, i surfed arm machines but there was not really good ones in the market | 12:59 |
| sx0n|home | for compilation purposes. | 12:59 |
| ali1234 | yeah, this is the problem | 12:59 |
| pupnik_ | multiprocessor ARM rack :P | 13:00 |
| sx0n|home | risc machines cost cows. | 13:02 |
| odin_ | I believe some vendor is looking at ARM for the server market now, since they are at the 1.7GHz barrier to entry now, so within 2 years I expect to see rack servers available (reminds me of MIPS based Cobalt Raq2 circa 2001) | 13:02 |
| sx0n|home | they dont even sell those for green money :) | 13:02 |
| Stskeeps | sx0n|home: ARM development is a breeze with OBS. | 13:02 |
| odin_ | anyone know how is cross-compile with sysroot looking ? | 13:03 |
| sx0n|home | Stskeeps: so i've been told. | 13:03 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: so, in practice, you'd be happy with a SDK that was built for non-SSSE3? | 13:03 |
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| Stskeeps | but that targetted ssse3 | 13:03 |
| ali1234 | yes | 13:04 |
| odin_ | SDK+core (i.e. what goes into download images) which can target BOTH non-ssse3 and ssse3 | 13:04 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: doesn't this pose a problem if you have applications that use SSSE3 and those binaries are used as intermediates? | 13:04 |
| Stskeeps | in build process | 13:04 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: not my problem | 13:05 |
| odin_ | so the next question is i686 ok ? or does it need to go lower ? | 13:05 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: it has to work on my development machine, or i won't use it | 13:05 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: and it doesn't have to target ssse3... it has to target arm | 13:05 |
| odin_ | presumably the SDK can uses its own repo, which contains a full set of SDK+core RPMs | 13:06 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: ah, i see the kicker now | 13:06 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: ok, so, 'arm platform sdk' would be a chroot full of arm binaries.. | 13:08 |
| Stskeeps | not requiring atom | 13:08 |
| Stskeeps | that's when looking away from what OBS does | 13:09 |
| ali1234 | plus an arm cross compiler not requiring atom, plus xephyr not requiring atom, ... | 13:09 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: i think that's solve-able. | 13:10 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: all this stuff is "solvable" | 13:10 |
| Stskeeps | as in, organisationally | 13:10 |
| ali1234 | it's only solvable if intel actually wants to solve it | 13:10 |
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| Stskeeps | in this particular case, no | 13:10 |
| ali1234 | nobody else can solve it and still call the result meego | 13:10 |
| Stskeeps | we have a different set of glibc for cross compiler | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | which is maintained by LF guys.. | 13:11 |
| ali1234 | the question then becomes, if you can supply this stuff for arm, why not for x86 too? | 13:12 |
| ali1234 | assuming you can come up with qemu that emulatees ssse3 | 13:12 |
| Stskeeps | x86 isn't a cross situation | 13:12 |
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| Stskeeps | well, if you have qemu that emulates ssse3, a lot of things is easier | 13:12 |
| lbt | this is why I asked about labelling at the TSG in the compliance space | 13:13 |
| lbt | MeeGo (arm), MeeGo (x86), MeeGo (Atom) | 13:13 |
| odin_ | re what is "meego" and what is "not meego" ? | 13:13 |
| lbt | odin_: see the compliance discussion | 13:13 |
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| sx0n|home | is meego embedded or generic desktop project? | 13:18 |
| lbt | yes | 13:18 |
| Ian-- | can somebody help me to run a .NET application on meego? I'm getting a System.Windows.Forms.dll FileNotFoundException and i can't seem to find how to install it | 13:18 |
| lbt | Ian--: check the wiki... it's on there | 13:19 |
| impje | How come there is no email address on the MeeGo website? I need to contact them because I was unable to register an account | 13:20 |
| lbt | impje: that sounds like an oversight - and you probably can't file a bug without registering... | 13:21 |
| impje | lbt: yeah, my email address was added to the database, but I didn't receive a password or anything | 13:21 |
| lbt | spam filtered? | 13:22 |
| impje | I checked but found nothing | 13:22 |
| lbt | on the grounds that most people don't have a problem :) | 13:22 |
| odin_ | you can't register again or login at all ? | 13:22 |
| lbt | try again from a gmail-type account? | 13:22 |
| ali1234 | i'll file a bug if nobody else is going to :) | 13:22 |
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| Stskeeps | about? | 13:22 |
| ali1234 | there is no contact email on the website | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | a | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | h | 13:23 |
| lbt | a | 13:23 |
| impje | I still use Hotmail, maybe that's the problem? Nothing in my spamfolder though | 13:23 |
| odin_ | Cry Wolf ! | 13:23 |
| lbt | impje: sorry, I thought you said email account | 13:23 |
| impje | lol | 13:24 |
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| lbt | yeah... IMO no-one's going to (or should) care about that -- sorry | 13:24 |
| impje | :( | 13:24 |
| impje | I will try with my work email address | 13:24 |
| lbt | yeah... if that doesn't work then I'm sure there will be concern | 13:25 |
| lbt | and once you have an account, do file a bug about a lack of support contacts for this kind of situation | 13:25 |
| impje | lbt: thanks for your help, I will try that and report back if it doesn't work | 13:26 |
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| lbt | np | 13:26 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: so, your use case can be covered by having a OBS project containing glibc, gcc, and the -x86 variants for cross compilation | 13:31 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: as well as cross* | 13:31 |
| Stskeeps | targetting non-SSSE3 | 13:31 |
| ali1234 | yeah | 13:31 |
| ali1234 | and i'll just have to install a different distro on my netbook :) | 13:32 |
| Stskeeps | mm | 13:32 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: it is a interesting problem | 13:32 |
| ali1234 | impje: i reported your bug: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5628 | 13:33 |
| impje | ali1234: thanks, that's exactly right | 13:35 |
| ali1234 | is there a delay between submitting a bug and the bug showing up on search results? | 13:35 |
| ali1234 | the title of the bug is "No point of contact for meego.com account registration problems" | 13:36 |
| ali1234 | if i put "meego.com account" into the bugzilla quick search, it does not find the bug | 13:36 |
| impje | lemme check | 13:36 |
| ali1234 | if i put in registration it finds it | 13:37 |
| ali1234 | ok it's showing up properly now, must be a slight delay :) | 13:37 |
| Phazorx | Can someone please help me figure out why certain keystrokes are not recognized by Xorg while working fine in console (after being dealt with setkeycodes)? | 13:38 |
| ali1234 | Phazorx: what scancodes did you assign them to? | 13:39 |
| ali1234 | can you pastebin any custom config you used? | 13:39 |
| ali1234 | also try running xev and after selecting the window, press the keys | 13:40 |
| ali1234 | and then pastebin the log from terminal | 13:40 |
| impje | ali1234, lbt: I can find the bug too :D And I successfully created an account with my work email. | 13:42 |
| Phazorx | ali "them" ? | 13:43 |
| ali1234 | Phazorx: yes, the keys | 13:43 |
| Phazorx | well dmesh used to show 0x88 and 0x89 | 13:43 |
| ali1234 | Phazorx: dmesh? | 13:43 |
| Phazorx | dmesg | 13:43 |
| ali1234 | Phazorx: oh. ok. well...... | 13:44 |
| ali1234 | when you say they work in console after setkeycodes... | 13:44 |
| Phazorx | which i assigned to 112 and 113 (unused at time) and tied them to brightness controll with a script that modivies /sys/class/acpi tree values | 13:44 |
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| ali1234 | why don't you assign them to the brightness up/down keys? | 13:45 |
| Phazorx | these are my brightness up/down | 13:45 |
| lbt | :) | 13:45 |
| Phazorx | but they were not recognized | 13:45 |
| ali1234 | 112/113 = KEY_MUTE/KEY_MACRO | 13:45 |
| Phazorx | ali1234: unforunatelly i dont know how to get the table used by current system | 13:46 |
| ali1234 | you probably want 224/225 = KEY_BRIGHTNESSDOWN/KEY_BRIGHTNESSUP | 13:46 |
| Phazorx | so iv followed some guide which said anything passed 112 is fine to be used | 13:46 |
| ali1234 | then get rid of your script, and it should "just work" | 13:46 |
| ali1234 | http://lxr.linux.no/linux/include/linux/input.h | 13:46 |
| Phazorx | ali1234: so if i do setkeycodes 0x88 224 that should make it happy? | 13:47 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder what the typical developer machine looks like inside nokia | 13:47 |
| Phazorx | and X will recognize that too? | 13:47 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: not ssse3 ... :) | 13:47 |
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| ali1234 | Phazorx: X will, whether the apps running inside it will | 13:47 |
| ali1234 | that's another question. but most apps can handle anything < 256 | 13:47 |
| Phazorx | ali1234: wel li mean to the point that i can bind htem in GCC | 13:47 |
| Phazorx | below 256? | 13:48 |
| ali1234 | bind them... in GCC? | 13:48 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: and I'm slightly concerned that this will hurt us | 13:48 |
| Phazorx | gnome contol center | 13:48 |
| ali1234 | oh ok, yeah. should be OK | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: then again, with OBS plugin in qt sdk.. | 13:48 |
| Phazorx | thanks, lemme try that | 13:48 |
| ali1234 | but if you map them directly to brightness up/down then gnome should recognise them by defalt | 13:48 |
| lbt | not seen it yet | 13:48 |
| Phazorx | ali1234: i hope it will ... but then many things i hoped for did not happen | 13:49 |
| lbt | even so ... much building should be done locally, images and all | 13:49 |
| Phazorx | ali1234: can i bug you with another Q btw? | 13:49 |
| ali1234 | sure | 13:49 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: mm | 13:49 |
| impje | Happy to have an account now. I will write on the forum soon about my experience with MeeGo on my N900 and virtual MeeGo with Qemu. Gotta go know, see you! | 13:49 |
| lbt | it's daft not to use the distributed power of desktops | 13:49 |
| Phazorx | i have another X input issue, where the touchpad is not recognized as multitouch device | 13:49 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: mic2 isn't a problem for arm, since everything's qemu | 13:49 |
| lbt | o/ impje | 13:49 |
| lbt | not just arm though | 13:50 |
| Stskeeps | well, mic2 relates to the target | 13:50 |
| ali1234 | Phazorx: don't know much about this... i think if it was going to work, it would do... | 13:50 |
| Phazorx | http://pastie.org/1090322 | 13:51 |
| Phazorx | ali1234: i see it unloads module after recognizing it - i wonder why | 13:51 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: well, backlash will come if there's a real problem | 13:51 |
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| lbt | problem is, when it arrives it'll take a while to resolve. meanwhile many people not working... | 13:52 |
| ali1234 | Phazorx: not sure... but it looks like it sees two different devices, and only one is a touchpad | 13:52 |
| ali1234 | Phazorx: can you show what dmesg says about the touchpad, if anything? | 13:53 |
| ali1234 | oh nvm, you did | 13:53 |
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| ali1234 | Phazorx: perhaps this can help you: http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-969993.html | 13:54 |
| ali1234 | someone on that thread has same id for their pad, and they think it can't do multitouch | 13:56 |
| Phazorx | well it can with sabayon and win7 | 13:56 |
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| Phazorx | so i doubt it is hw issue | 13:57 |
| ali1234 | well thread also has instructions for enabling multitouch features | 13:57 |
| ali1234 | it's through hal though, i think hal was killed | 13:57 |
| Phazorx | ali1234: i know several approaches to dealing with "fixing" X | 13:57 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: did you find a reliable way to track ssse3 instructions yet | 13:58 |
| Stskeeps | ? | 13:58 |
| Phazorx | but every time i asked about them here i been told what evdev is supposed to take care of everything and it should just work | 13:58 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i decided that -d was reliable | 13:58 |
| Phazorx | so i wonder which is the proper way for dealing with it now in meego | 13:58 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: did gcc have any ssse3? | 13:58 |
| ali1234 | no | 13:58 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: this is my "most confident" list: http://pastebin.com/EnX9EnY1 | 13:59 |
| Stskeeps | does glibc guard it's SSSE3 things? | 13:59 |
| ali1234 | glibc is hand optimized so you can just look at the code to find out | 13:59 |
| ali1234 | the only ssse3 instructions in meego are ones that are done by hand with inline asm | 14:00 |
| ali1234 | gcc totally fails to generate any ssse3 instructions, ever | 14:00 |
| Stskeeps | ok, so, in theory you don't have problems with arm cross compiler | 14:00 |
| Stskeeps | er, in practice | 14:00 |
| ali1234 | these results are for 1.0.1 | 14:01 |
| Stskeeps | as in, it'll run fine on your non-ssse3 machine | 14:01 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 14:01 |
| ali1234 | um yeah, as long as it doesn't use the normal meego glibc | 14:01 |
| ali1234 | but that doesn't mean it will work next week | 14:01 |
| Stskeeps | either way, there's nothing stopping us from providing a non-ssse3 arm cross toolchain | 14:01 |
| Stskeeps | as far as i can tell | 14:02 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: https://build.obs.maemo.org/project/monitor?project=home%3Astskeeps%3Assse3_bootstrap | 14:08 |
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| lbt | looking rather good :) | 14:09 |
| Phazorx | there is a newerv xorg-synaptics driver how can i safely use that with meego? | 14:09 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: there's some of them that reports 'cannot build' and a glib2 failure that worries me | 14:10 |
| Phazorx | i mean with having ability to upgrade after that | 14:10 |
| Stskeeps | 'gcc cannot build' i mean | 14:10 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: when did you start the build? | 14:10 |
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| lbt | you do know that the maemo OBS is running on AMD hardware... | 14:10 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: yesterday | 14:10 |
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| ali1234 | Phazorx: right now? get someone with an OBS account to build it for you | 14:11 |
| ali1234 | that would result in a RPM you can install at will | 14:11 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: not much parallelism in the build ... looking at the number of idle workers... | 14:12 |
| lbt | until 9am... | 14:12 |
| Stskeeps | mm | 14:12 |
| lbt | https://build.obs.maemo.org/monitor | 14:13 |
| Stskeeps | well, 9am was when i woke up and click disable to avoid loop | 14:13 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:13 |
| lbt | ah | 14:13 |
| Phazorx | ali1234: and after that i should be able just to yum it from meego-current repo? | 14:14 |
| ali1234 | not exactly no | 14:14 |
| ali1234 | basically there is currently no easy way to do it | 14:14 |
| Phazorx | hrm | 14:14 |
| ali1234 | if you feel that there is a bug in the synaptics driver you should report it | 14:15 |
| Phazorx | well in order to confirm that i need to try the driver | 14:15 |
| Phazorx | https://launchpad.net/~voria/+archive/ppa/+packages one from here is reported to work with hardware i have | 14:15 |
| Phazorx | so assuming i get that and build it... where do i shove it into X (or make nstall might just work?)? | 14:16 |
| ali1234 | no idea | 14:16 |
| Phazorx | heh | 14:17 |
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| ali1234 | does brightness work now? | 14:17 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: added you as maintainer - i don't have any personal need for ssse3 on any of my boxes, so feel free to take it from here. patched packages are: gcc, glibc and setup | 14:20 |
| Stskeeps | and prjconf | 14:20 |
| lbt | OK .. we need to find a way to maintain this going forwards too | 14:21 |
| Stskeeps | gcc patch can maybe be altered to a prjconf -mno-ssse3 (such an option exists), not sure about march=core2 eing a problem | 14:22 |
| ali1234 | if anyone can show a piece of C code that causes gcc to output an ssse3 instruction... i'd be highly interested :) | 14:23 |
| ali1234 | or sse4.1/.2 for that matter | 14:23 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: i'd like you to run a ssse3 check on these binaries when they're done | 14:24 |
| lbt | http://wiki.meego.com/Devices/nonSSSE3/POC | 14:25 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: so, community OBS is amd? | 14:26 |
| lbt | maemo one | 14:26 |
| Stskeeps | ok, then glibc is guarding it's ssse3 | 14:27 |
| lbt | it's running Xen fwiw | 14:27 |
| lbt | I guess there is a vague chance xen is handling that | 14:27 |
| * lbt isn't sure | 14:28 | |
| Stskeeps | i wonder how far we would get with something simple like assuming for developers that we never saw that -mssse3 was there. | 14:28 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:28 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder if ssse3 in qt is guarded | 14:31 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, looks like it, the patch lbt pasted here last night at line 186 | 14:31 |
| lcuk | http://pastebin.com/UhVwN0UA | 14:31 |
| Stskeeps | ah, clever | 14:31 |
| lcuk | err not the qt one, thats for glibc | 14:32 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 14:32 |
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| Stskeeps | so, i'm wondering if this is a battle we want to take | 14:34 |
| Stskeeps | by the time gcc has ssse3 specific code optimization, the machines being non-ssse3 is obsolete | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:35 |
| lbt | I am wondering what the problem is | 14:35 |
| lbt | and if it is still a problem | 14:35 |
| lbt | I've been told, many times | 14:36 |
| lbt | that I *neeeed* sssse3 | 14:36 |
| lbt | and since my boring old laptops are pre-core-duo I haven't even tried meego on them | 14:36 |
| lbt | I saw problems in the early days when building mic2 images... those problems were real and, I was told, due to the ssse3 issue | 14:37 |
| lbt | the fire on the mailing list didn't say "in practice, all ssse3 is guarded" | 14:38 |
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| lcuk | perhaps the devs were following form and heard that gcc optimizations were using ssse3 and just jumped the fence following from the previous person | 14:40 |
| lcuk | since actually checking and validating it requires specific knowledge of reading asm and patches etc | 14:40 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: my scripts: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/cpucheck-0.2.tar.gz | 14:40 |
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| ali1234 | according to my tests there is no ssse3 in qt | 14:42 |
| lbt | mmm there is in the trunk/testing | 14:43 |
| lbt | qt4.7 | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | sec | 14:43 |
| ali1234 | i will rsync the daily then, and test that | 14:43 |
| w00t_ | depends how new the Qt is too, I think a bunch of patches have been landing adding ssse3 code | 14:43 |
| ali1234 | as in, hand coded ones? | 14:43 |
| ali1234 | inline asm | 14:44 |
| ali1234 | these are easy enough to back out :) | 14:44 |
| lbt | Qt is either guarded or compile flagged in a nice way | 14:44 |
| lbt | ie "done properly" :) | 14:44 |
| Stskeeps | http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/ia32/packages/i586/ - check those qt packages for ssse3 | 14:44 |
| ali1234 | on it | 14:45 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt, did you look at the ways people program for sse in general? i have doubts any gcc optimizations exist that lend itself to easy ssse3'izing | 14:46 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234, lbt: consider a SSSE3 talk on confernece? P | 14:48 |
| lbt | "Handling multiple architures and architecture variations in MeeGo, MeeGo app stores and MeeGo Extras/Garage" | 14:51 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 14:51 |
| lbt | no, that was just an idea for a title | 14:52 |
| ali1234 | i think i'm going to bring a placard with "what do we want? not ssse3. when do we want it? never" on it | 14:52 |
| * Stskeeps ponders when atom came on market first time | 14:52 | |
| lbt | Stskeeps, fancy collaborating on that talk? | 14:53 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: i should stay in meego arm | 14:53 |
| lbt | 2006 I think someone said | 14:53 |
| lbt | wuss | 14:53 |
| Stskeeps | we're a little more in control of our arch ;) | 14:53 |
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| ali1234 | why does meego have i586 and i686 sections? | 14:56 |
| Stskeeps | another good question | 14:56 |
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| lbt | rpm ? | 14:56 |
| lbt | no consistent naming policy? | 14:56 |
| Stskeeps | no matter what calculation i make regarding money and ssse3 support, the time spent to maintain the non-ssse3 vs people buying equipment with ssse3 doesn't add up to the time spent making the non-ssse3 | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | i mean | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | a D945GCLF2 is 73 usd. | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | majority of people will be using qt and MADDE, ie, never actually try to run the binaries | 14:59 |
| lcuk | there is also the subset of people with ssse3 supporting atom chips but then the brainfuck of gma500 | 14:59 |
| Stskeeps | there might be some merit to SSSE3 emulation in qemu-kvm, but beyond that.. | 14:59 |
| lcuk | but realistically there are 10000% more capable machines than atom machines at this time | 15:00 |
| lbt | phenom x6 !!! | 15:00 |
| lbt | yay | 15:00 |
| ali1234 | but, capable machines with ssse3 is basically just AMD stuff | 15:00 |
| ali1234 | *without | 15:00 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, retail price? | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | did anyone look into if qemu-i386 can do passthrough | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | Termana: amazon | 15:01 |
| lcuk | is linaro targetting arm only at this point? | 15:01 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, right, somehow I doubt Intel is paying retail price for their equipment | 15:01 |
| lcuk | cos on their faq they mention putting meego ontop | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | Termana: not speaking of intel | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | Termana: my point is any given developer | 15:01 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, oh, well carry on - don't mind me :P | 15:02 |
| timeless_mbp | linaro's web site is much shinier than meego's | 15:02 |
| lcuk | ali1234, i have 2 intel chipset lenovo laptops, one 20" multitouch allinone machine | 15:02 |
| lcuk | and a load of other boards | 15:02 |
| lcuk | specifically intel | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: but very confusing | 15:02 |
| lcuk | the allinone was purchased this year | 15:02 |
| timeless_mbp | and search takes too long | 15:02 |
| ali1234 | the thing about developing is you can't build/debug efficiently on a netbook | 15:02 |
| Termana | lcuk, Linaro is basically made of ARM companies (?) I doubt they are doing anything else | 15:02 |
| ali1234 | if i had to replace by workstation with an intel based one, i am looking at £800+ | 15:03 |
| lcuk | ok, so is there a followup from ubuntu to put meego on top | 15:03 |
| lcuk | like they did with moblin remix | 15:03 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: there's no reason why you can't build locally, deploy and debug remotely | 15:03 |
| Stskeeps | i mean | 15:03 |
| Stskeeps | it is a device target. | 15:03 |
| lcuk | because if so, that would work on all those machines I just mentioned | 15:03 |
| lcuk | cos they all run ubuntu atm | 15:03 |
| Robot101 | lcuk: no; it wouldn't be meego compliant - because compliance now requires the distro to be the meego distro | 15:03 |
| Termana | lcuk, you mean put the UI/UX on top of Ubuntu? | 15:03 |
| Robot101 | lcuk: ubuntu are making their own eg netbook UX | 15:03 |
| Robot101 | lcuk: and tbh, probably a tablet - they just released some multitouch stuff too | 15:04 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: this is true if i can build rpms and put them in my local repo... of course if building rpms needs a chroot, and then i need an intel chip for the chroot, and i'm back to square 1 | 15:04 |
| Termana | lcuk, someone could independently compile the MeeGo UI/UX onto Ubuntu and send it up into the repos (or even, not do that) | 15:04 |
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| Robot101 | fedora has a project to build a meego respin I think | 15:05 |
| Termana | SuSE are trying to do it as well (AFAIK) | 15:05 |
| ali1234 | i bet a tonne of people are trying to port meego | 15:05 |
| ali1234 | rather, port meego UX | 15:05 |
| smoku | meego core is enough for me :> | 15:07 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, there is your motivation for proper meego to be more supportive of x86 in general | 15:07 |
| Stskeeps | no, not really | 15:07 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:07 |
| lcuk | well to the end user, they wont care which meego is which | 15:07 |
| lcuk | whether its official compliance or not | 15:08 |
| lcuk | if it looks like meego and runs like meego | 15:08 |
| lcuk | and happens to run on the hardware they have | 15:08 |
| ali1234 | it won't though | 15:08 |
| ali1234 | (look like meego, run like meego) | 15:08 |
| Termana | lcuk, Are general consumers really going to go and download MeeGo though | 15:08 |
| ali1234 | even meego won;t "look like meego" once the vendors are through with it | 15:08 |
| Termana | I'm not sure they will. They'll buy devices preloaded with MeeGo | 15:09 |
| timeless_mbp | ooh, i know someone at linaro! | 15:09 |
| lbt | I think the app-store/garage is the place where this could hurt | 15:09 |
| lbt | making an img that works is easy | 15:09 |
| lbt | making it work with a variety of 3rd party apps... some closed ... harder | 15:10 |
| lbt | unless there is a clear way to trivially build for architecture targets | 15:10 |
| sivang | timeless_mbp: pong | 15:11 |
| ali1234 | i see a lot more ssse3 in the daily builds... report coming soon | 15:12 |
| ali1234 | chromium has some, firefox has some | 15:13 |
| timeless_mbp | firefox's should do runtime detection | 15:13 |
| ali1234 | nothing critical yet except glibc | 15:13 |
| timeless_mbp | we sometimes get it wrong, but we should be | 15:13 |
| ali1234 | seems to be in the javascript engine | 15:14 |
| timeless_mbp | sure | 15:17 |
| timeless_mbp | but as i said, it's supposed to be cpu aware | 15:17 |
| timeless_mbp | (runtmie) | 15:18 |
| ali1234 | yeah, i believe it... my scripts don't really check for that | 15:18 |
| timeless_mbp | s/mie/ime/ | 15:18 |
| infobot | timeless_mbp meant: (runtime) | 15:18 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps,lbt: daily -d: http://pastebin.com/y24n9wVy | 15:27 |
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| lcuk | lbt, from the meego community obs, did i hear that you had already run it over the current maemo community apps? do you happen to know how many currently there will run directly on meego? | 15:34 |
| lcuk | i am guessing that the subset is only the qt apps, but I might be wrong | 15:35 |
| lbt | no... that's your (the maemo community's) job... | 15:35 |
| lbt | but they are bone-idle scumbags... | 15:35 |
| Khertan | pyqt isn't available yet from what i see | 15:36 |
| lcuk | and since most of hte apps are hildon it doesn't make sense | 15:36 |
| lcuk | so not a case of boneidleness :P | 15:36 |
| lcuk | i was wondering about the specific qt apps | 15:36 |
| Khertan | but the obs can build debian package :) | 15:37 |
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| lcuk | lbt, in the past you have run obs over everything in extras though, I am sure I remember you doing it | 15:40 |
| lcuk | or am I going back far enough to be mer | 15:40 |
| lbt | that's correct | 15:40 |
| lbt | we can build against fremantle | 15:41 |
| lbt | they are debs | 15:41 |
| lcuk | that will be it then | 15:41 |
| lbt | they won't build against meego as-is | 15:41 |
| lbt | harmattan... | 15:41 |
| lbt | no but easier | 15:41 |
| lcuk | not even pure qt? | 15:41 |
| lbt | no | 15:41 |
| lbt | build tool syntax | 15:41 |
| lbt | deb!=rpm | 15:41 |
| lbt | you need to convert your debian/ dir to a spec file | 15:42 |
| lbt | but I'd love to see that | 15:42 |
| lbt | Khertan mentioned pyqt... someone asked on the ml about doing just this | 15:42 |
| lcuk | hmm if only qt had a central set of app packaging interfaces | 15:43 |
| lcuk | then could spout out rpm or deb or installshield as required | 15:43 |
| lcuk | or even pacman | 15:43 |
| lcuk | or any other extensible normal build system | 15:44 |
| ali1234 | that makes no sense :/ | 15:44 |
| Khertan | lbt, yes i know | 15:44 |
| Khertan | :) | 15:44 |
| lcuk | ali1234, why does it make no sense? | 15:44 |
| lcuk | qt is meant to be cross platform | 15:44 |
| ali1234 | because it would have to generate spec/control, not binary packages | 15:44 |
| lcuk | the biggest headache of crossplatformness is installing | 15:44 |
| lbt | lcuk: it's not windows | 15:45 |
| ali1234 | and it would have to generate them for every distro evar | 15:45 |
| Stskeeps | i vote having qt sdk generate yaml files | 15:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:45 |
| lcuk | ali1234, well then how does a qt developer today manage to use qt on all platforms? | 15:45 |
| lbt | eek | 15:45 |
| Stskeeps | and yaml -> spec, debian/ | 15:45 |
| ali1234 | lcuk: they release the source, and let someone else worry about packaging | 15:45 |
| lcuk | qt code once, deploy anywhere was/is the motto | 15:45 |
| lcuk | ali1234, ahhhhh | 15:45 |
| lcuk | but lbt just said devs are boneidle | 15:46 |
| lcuk | and have to diy | 15:46 |
| ali1234 | approximately 0% of OSS developers target a specific distro with their code | 15:46 |
| lcuk | agreed | 15:46 |
| Khertan | i vote for adding bdist_deb to setup tool on obs | 15:46 |
| lcuk | then having a nice central easy deployable qt mechanism would be a good thing? | 15:46 |
| Khertan | so python apps can be build with the same setup.py | 15:46 |
| ali1234 | which is why trying to attract app developers to "code for meego" is a flawed idea from the start | 15:46 |
| Khertan | ali1234, and this is why qt is here | 15:47 |
| Khertan | :) | 15:47 |
| lcuk | but Khertan all the points about packaging those said apps | 15:47 |
| lcuk | loses that | 15:47 |
| Khertan | ) | 15:47 |
| Khertan | :) | 15:47 |
| * lcuk will modify his template to generate rpms once I know enough of the spec | 15:48 | |
| ali1234 | lcuk if they are using qtcreator then sure, have it generate a generic control/spec/yaml whatever | 15:48 |
| lcuk | and once I get machines with meego on of course | 15:48 |
| lcuk | ali1234, thats what I mean | 15:48 |
| * lcuk started adding ubuntu menu thingies to template recently | 15:49 | |
| ali1234 | ideally qtcreator for platform X would be customized with a plugin to make the right kind of packages for that platform, and of course you could install all the other plugins too | 15:49 |
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| ali1234 | i have no problem with this :) | 15:49 |
| ali1234 | but it should not be built in to the core of Qt | 15:49 |
| lcuk | ali1234, yes, that was my initial line: use a qt api to generate a qt package, then have it output in whatever format was necessary | 15:49 |
| ali1234 | qt api? | 15:50 |
| lcuk | a set of classes written in qt to handle the different packaging requirements | 15:50 |
| Khertan | QPackage ... :) | 15:50 |
| ali1234 | there is basically no need for that | 15:50 |
| lcuk | files icons .desktops shortcuts libraries dependencies conffiles etc | 15:50 |
| Khertan | ali1234, there is | 15:50 |
| lcuk | yes Khertan | 15:50 |
| ali1234 | if your project has a makefile that can do make install, packaging it is trivial anyway | 15:51 |
| Khertan | makefile ... HAHA | 15:51 |
| lcuk | ali1234, then why isnt that the default | 15:51 |
| lcuk | and why cant normal qt maemo apps run in meego today? | 15:51 |
| ali1234 | lcuk i dunno, you'd have to ask the people who make sucky projects i guess | 15:51 |
| ali1234 | lcuk they can run | 15:51 |
| Khertan | makefile isn't for everythings | 15:52 |
| ali1234 | the problem is that the packages are described in control files but meego needs spec files | 15:52 |
| lcuk | makefile is a good place to do the majority of deployment for a specific platform | 15:52 |
| ali1234 | these files are equivalent in usage but totally different in systax | 15:52 |
| lcuk | ali1234, you are missing what I am trying to do | 15:52 |
| lcuk | QPackage (nice name Khertan) would hold all this info | 15:52 |
| lcuk | and different output generators could be created | 15:52 |
| lcuk | which take the info in QPackage and give .debs or rpms or installshields in the OS specific locations | 15:53 |
| ali1234 | you can't do that | 15:53 |
| lcuk | C:/program files/ali1234/ali1234.exe | 15:53 |
| ali1234 | debs are made from control files | 15:53 |
| lcuk | /usr/bin/ali1234 | 15:53 |
| ali1234 | no control, no deb | 15:53 |
| * lcuk bangs head | 15:53 | |
| ali1234 | no spec, no rpm | 15:53 |
| lcuk | then have QPackage give out control files | 15:53 |
| ali1234 | ok. what does it do on windows? | 15:54 |
| lcuk | and have another plugin to make spec files | 15:54 |
| lcuk | it has an installshield one | 15:54 |
| lcuk | or wise installer | 15:54 |
| lcuk | or even package and deployment wizard files | 15:54 |
| ali1234 | so QPackage has to know how to build the whole project | 15:54 |
| lcuk | yes | 15:54 |
| ali1234 | which is different on every platform anyway | 15:54 |
| lcuk | you have to tell something that info anyway | 15:54 |
| lcuk | not really | 15:54 |
| lcuk | in installshield | 15:54 |
| ali1234 | yes really | 15:54 |
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| lcuk | you specify things like data path | 15:54 |
| lcuk | database files | 15:55 |
| ali1234 | all you have done is moved the problem | 15:55 |
| lcuk | menu files | 15:55 |
| lcuk | etc | 15:55 |
| lcuk | it chooses the location | 15:55 |
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| lcuk | no | 15:55 |
| ali1234 | instead of having to rewrite all the controls into spec files, now we have to go in and modify some code, and change all the values inside this QPackage thing | 15:55 |
| lcuk | installshield handles happily nstalling in win98 and winnt and win2k+ | 15:55 |
| Khertan | look at python setup.py ... you specify what is datafile ... what is script file ... what is module ... and everything go to the right place "magically" | 15:55 |
| lcuk | they thenselves have different standards for locations | 15:55 |
| ali1234 | Khertan: and it stomps all over your distro packaged files | 15:55 |
| sydsb | Hi All | 15:56 |
| Khertan | ali1234, nope ... from setup.py you can generate rpm or deb | 15:56 |
| sydsb | could you help me for a sec | 15:56 |
| sydsb | I can't get the meego install past the formating of my harddisk... | 15:56 |
| sydsb | and the none google version doens't even boot | 15:56 |
| ali1234 | Khertan: because setup.py encapsulates all the needed data same as a makefile does | 15:57 |
| ali1234 | moving it into some other file serves no purpose | 15:58 |
| lcuk | ali1234, moving it into another file format allows it to be abstracted "in a qt cross platform manner" | 15:58 |
| lcuk | so that the plugin can choose where to store data files and binaries and menu files and confi info | 15:58 |
| Khertan | why having QString ? it s just a string ... | 15:59 |
| Khertan | same things | 15:59 |
| ali1234 | at the end of the day you still need to make a spec or a control, or OBS won't build your project | 16:00 |
| ali1234 | the spec/control has to exist before anything else | 16:00 |
| lcuk | no | 16:00 |
| lcuk | the QPackage should exist | 16:00 |
| lcuk | then IT can make BOTH spec AND RPM | 16:00 |
| ali1234 | how can a QPackage "exist"? | 16:00 |
| ali1234 | it's code | 16:00 |
| lcuk | errr both spec and deb | 16:01 |
| ali1234 | it won;t exist until you compile and run it | 16:01 |
| lcuk | yes its configuration data stored inside the qt project | 16:01 |
| ali1234 | to compile it you need a spec and a makefile | 16:01 |
| Khertan | ali1234, not necessary ... you could use python biding | 16:01 |
| Khertan | and so no makefile :) | 16:01 |
| ali1234 | we are not talking about python | 16:02 |
| ali1234 | we're talking generic Qt apps | 16:02 |
| lcuk | ok ali1234 | 16:02 |
| lcuk | how does spec/control put a qt app on windows? | 16:02 |
| ali1234 | it doesn't | 16:02 |
| lcuk | how does a spec/control put it onto ubuntu? | 16:02 |
| lcuk | how does a spec/control put it onto arch? | 16:03 |
| ali1234 | you take the source rpm, which contains the project source, and the control, and use run dpkg-buildpackage on it, and it generates a deb | 16:03 |
| lcuk | how does a spec/control put it onto X distro? | 16:03 |
| ali1234 | arch uses that pacman stuff | 16:03 |
| lcuk | how does a spec/control put it onto mac? | 16:03 |
| ali1234 | gentoo uses ebuilds | 16:03 |
| Khertan | ali1234, we are not talking about generic qt apps ... we are talking about packaging ! | 16:03 |
| lcuk | the suggestion I am making is to allow a qt project to just tell its high level "i have some icons and binaries and data, put it where necessary for the OS in question" | 16:04 |
| lcuk | and that qt-creator plugins will use that information and produce a package in the required format | 16:04 |
| ali1234 | there is simply no reason to put any of that inside Qt | 16:05 |
| lcuk | whether it be spec/deb/pac/installshield/mac/or whatever | 16:05 |
| thiago_home | not inside Qt | 16:05 |
| thiago_home | but inside the .pro file, or some other file, yes | 16:05 |
| lcuk | ++ yes | 16:05 |
| thiago_home | for simple apps, it's useful | 16:05 |
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| thiago_home | for anything more complex, you'll probably have to maintain the package rules yourself | 16:05 |
| ali1234 | sure, fine, i got no problem with that | 16:05 |
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| ali1234 | but if you do that properly there's no reason why it even has to be limited to Qt | 16:06 |
| thiago_home | indeed | 16:06 |
| ali1234 | i bet eclipse can already do stuff like this | 16:06 |
| * lcuk turns 360 degrees and goes doing some useful work | 16:06 | |
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| * timeless_mbp kicks lcuk | 16:11 | |
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| timeless_mbp | lcuk: did you hear the one about the guy whose velocity was 0 but had a speed of 20mph? | 16:12 |
| timeless_mbp | in case people are wondering, turning 360 degrees gets you pretty much *nowhere* new. just precisely where you started before you spent time turning around in a *complete* circle | 16:13 |
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| lcuk | timeless_mbp, ;) | 16:14 |
| Khertan | yeah ... but it's a bit like goldorak ... why making two turns before attacking ... it s just a loose of time ... | 16:14 |
| ali1234 | i think that was the point | 16:15 |
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| vlj | I meet a strange error with mic http://paste.opensuse.org/20431249 | 16:17 |
| timeless_mbp | vlj: can you ask mic to run in LC_ALL="C"? | 16:18 |
| timeless_mbp | > device-mapper: reload ioctl failed: Erreur d'entrée/sortie | 16:19 |
| vlj | input/output error | 16:19 |
| vlj | but I think it may be better in english yup ;) | 16:19 |
| timeless_mbp | > Error: failed to create image : Could not create snapshot device using: /sbin/dmsetup create imgcreate-5210-37918 --table 0 6144000 snapshot /dev/loop0 /dev/loop1 p 8 | 16:19 |
| timeless_mbp | that second line is more or less likely to be fatal | 16:19 |
| vlj | yes | 16:20 |
| ali1234 | modprobe loop? | 16:20 |
| timeless_mbp | are you in a vm? | 16:20 |
| vlj | but I don't understand why mic try to seek a file in tmp ? | 16:20 |
| timeless_mbp | or are you sharing? | 16:20 |
| vlj | no | 16:20 |
| vlj | no | 16:20 |
| timeless_mbp | so this is your own machine? | 16:20 |
| vlj | yup | 16:20 |
| timeless_mbp | what are the permissions for /dev/loop* | 16:21 |
| vlj | (I modprobed loop) | 16:21 |
| ali1234 | already got something mounted on loop0/loop1? | 16:21 |
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| vlj | brw-rw------ | 16:21 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: that'd be my bet | 16:21 |
| timeless_mbp | but i was guessing it was another user | 16:21 |
| ali1234 | like a CD image for example? | 16:21 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: mount|grep loop ? | 16:22 |
| vlj | im building in livecd format | 16:22 |
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| vlj | (what is the loop device ?) | 16:22 |
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| timeless_mbp | a loop is like a circle or a ring | 16:22 |
| ali1234 | if you mount an image file like an .iso or a filesystem image, it goes to /dev/loopN | 16:22 |
| timeless_mbp | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loopback | 16:22 |
| ScottishDuck | So is there any indication of how long beta is delayed for | 16:23 |
| vlj | but why can it breaks mic process ? | 16:23 |
| timeless_mbp | oddly that doesn't list file system | 16:23 |
| timeless_mbp | vlj: basically the file system doesn't allow mounting files | 16:23 |
| timeless_mbp | it mounts devices | 16:23 |
| vlj | ok | 16:23 |
| timeless_mbp | loopback is a way of presenting a file as a device | 16:23 |
| ali1234 | vlj: if mic is hardcoded to use loop0 and loop1 they might be already in use... | 16:23 |
| timeless_mbp | but if you've already presented a file as device <loop0> | 16:24 |
| vlj | I just ran a single instance of mic at a time | 16:24 |
| vlj | well how can I see that ? | 16:24 |
| timeless_mbp | and someone else tries to present another file as device <loop0> | 16:24 |
| timeless_mbp | that's not going to work.... | 16:24 |
| timeless_mbp | vlj: try "mount|grep loop" | 16:24 |
| vlj | no output | 16:24 |
| ali1234 | thats not it then | 16:25 |
| timeless_mbp | what's the group for loop0? | 16:26 |
| timeless_mbp | (and are you in it) | 16:26 |
| ali1234 | anything interesting on dmesg? | 16:26 |
| vlj | err | 16:27 |
| vlj | in /etc/passwd ? | 16:27 |
| ali1234 | vlj: ls -l /dev/loop0 | 16:27 |
| ali1234 | and 'groups' to list your current groups | 16:28 |
| vlj | root disk | 16:28 |
| vlj | im in user and video | 16:28 |
| ali1234 | you need to be in disk then i would guess | 16:28 |
| ali1234 | gpasswd -a vlj disk | 16:29 |
| ali1234 | (as root) | 16:29 |
| ali1234 | then log out and log in again | 16:29 |
| ali1234 | but be warned that this gives your user the ability to trash all your disks :) | 16:30 |
| vlj | well I'm the only user :p | 16:30 |
| Termana | Or you know, you could just use your root access to mount the loop | 16:31 |
| * Termana rolls eyes at ali1234 | 16:31 | |
| Termana | :P | 16:31 |
| vlj | mic does ask me my root password | 16:31 |
| vlj | err | 16:31 |
| vlj | in fact I run mic-image-creator as root | 16:31 |
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| ali1234 | oooook it's not permissions either then | 16:32 |
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| ali1234 | hmm | 16:33 |
| ali1234 | device-mapper is what looks on eg /dev/hda to find the partitions /dev/hda1 ... etc | 16:34 |
| ali1234 | vlj: are you actually trying to make the ks file yourself? | 16:35 |
| vlj | yes | 16:35 |
| vlj | I may have broken something in my ks file ? | 16:37 |
| ali1234 | i think so | 16:37 |
| ali1234 | it's not permission or device busy error but i/o error from device-mapper | 16:37 |
| ali1234 | to me that indicates the loop wasn't set up correctly, or the image you gave it was supposed to have partition table but didn't | 16:38 |
| ali1234 | can you successfully build a vanilla livecd with the standard .ks? | 16:40 |
| ali1234 | if so problem must be your .ks file | 16:40 |
| vlj | 2sec | 16:40 |
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| vlj | http://wiki.meego.com/images/Nvidia-meego.ks here is my ks file | 16:42 |
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| ali1234 | heh, that looks suspiciously like a spec file :) | 16:43 |
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| vlj | well the %post section is moreless a spec file | 16:44 |
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| ali1234 | i don't get it | 16:45 |
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| ali1234 | you copy nvidia...run into the image along with gcc... but how does it get built? | 16:46 |
| vlj | well it does not build it during image creation | 16:46 |
| vlj | it just copy everything so that the user can build it after installing meego | 16:46 |
| ali1234 | yet you start x on boot? how is that going to work? | 16:47 |
| vlj | nvidia drivers does not like to be installed in an automated fashion | 16:47 |
| vlj | x will probably crash on boot ;) | 16:47 |
| ali1234 | why not just use a vanilla livecd and install it all by hand? | 16:47 |
| vlj | because no internet connection | 16:48 |
| vlj | err I have an issue | 16:48 |
| vlj | when I do ps aux | 16:48 |
| ali1234 | ah, ok | 16:48 |
| vlj | I have [loop0] and [loop1] process | 16:48 |
| vlj | and I cannot kill them | 16:48 |
| ali1234 | hmm, that's odd | 16:48 |
| ali1234 | ah, yeah, cos they are set up but not mounted | 16:49 |
| vlj | how can I "remove" them ? | 16:49 |
| ali1234 | sudo losetup -a | 16:50 |
| ali1234 | to list them | 16:50 |
| ali1234 | sudo losetup -d /dev/loop0 | 16:51 |
| ali1234 | to detach it | 16:51 |
| ali1234 | but they are probably only like that cos the script bombed out half way | 16:51 |
| ali1234 | out of interest what does losetup -a say? | 16:51 |
| vlj | /dev/loop0: [0807]:40118 (/var/tmp/imgcreate-TpeSZm/tmp-NLk7jF/meego.img) | 16:52 |
| vlj | /dev/loop1: [0807]:40237 (/var/tmp/imgcreate-PZkgcp/tmp-PjAn79/meego.img) | 16:52 |
| vlj | i will detach them I think | 16:52 |
| ali1234 | output implies it's from two different runs i think | 16:52 |
| vlj | maybe | 16:52 |
| ali1234 | so that might be the cause | 16:52 |
| ali1234 | did you have problems at an earlier stage in the script? | 16:53 |
| vlj | well yes | 16:53 |
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| vlj | err | 16:53 |
| vlj | I have this error msg now : | 16:53 |
| vlj | Error: failed to create image : [Errno 28] No space left on device: '/var/tmp/mic-tmp-cZObMp' | 16:53 |
| Stskeeps | out of space? | 16:54 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:54 |
| ali1234 | lol, it could have been disk full all along :) | 16:54 |
| timeless_mbp | anyone rm -rf /var/tmp :) | 16:54 |
| timeless_mbp | (not as root) | 16:54 |
| vlj | why not as root ? | 16:54 |
| timeless_mbp | well, hrm, maybe sudo rm -rf /var/tmp/* | 16:54 |
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| timeless_mbp | well, you don't really want to delete /var/tmp itself | 16:55 |
| timeless_mbp | and there might be some other processes using /var/tmp | 16:55 |
| vlj | indeed | 16:55 |
| timeless_mbp | killing their bits would mostly suck | 16:55 |
| * Stskeeps gets back to his kitchen ux project.. | 16:55 | |
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| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: irl? | 16:55 |
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| timeless_mbp | but if mic is running as root, that probably won't work | 16:55 |
| vlj | /var/tmp is not cleaned when rebooting computer ? | 16:55 |
| timeless_mbp | it might be | 16:55 |
| * timeless_mbp shrugs | 16:55 | |
| timeless_mbp | depends on your computer | 16:55 |
| vlj | now I have "Error: failed to create image : Failed to find group 'Base' : No Group named Base exists" | 16:56 |
| timeless_mbp | ¿Hay alguien aquà que hable español? | 16:57 |
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| ali1234 | vlj: i notice you've got like 10 copies of nvidia drivers downloaded, if you use wget -c it won't reget it every time (and will automatically retry on errors) | 17:00 |
| timeless_mbp | ¡Ayúdenme! :) | 17:00 |
| vlj | ok | 17:00 |
| vlj | (i'm not a script expert ;) ) | 17:01 |
| ali1234 | can't help with your new error though, it sounds weird | 17:01 |
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| vlj | well I think this is because @Base does not exist anymore | 17:01 |
| vlj | I don't have this error with my nvidia-netbook.ks | 17:01 |
| vlj | just with the plain meego-preview-core.ks | 17:01 |
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| vlj | is there any Meego-netbook for arm image yet ? | 17:07 |
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| Stskeeps | vlj: no, a lot doesn't compile | 17:08 |
| vlj | ok | 17:08 |
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| lbt | woo - debate fodder on the community ml ... again... not that anyone cares ;) "Building apps which require proprietary code on the MeeGo OBS" | 17:55 |
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| lbt | just find a way to get it ratified (how *does* anything get ratified given the lack of a council? Jaffa?) | 17:56 |
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| Stskeeps | is there a executive summary of the problem yet? | 17:58 |
| Stskeeps | like, grabbing the closed blobs from another obs through a obs link | 18:02 |
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| lcuk | lbt, is the problem constrained to closed source blobs | 18:03 |
| lcuk | I tohught also, obs has limitations on its open source stuff for certain projects | 18:04 |
| lcuk | wasn't it a restriction that prevents mplayer from being there | 18:04 |
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| timeless_mbp | lbt_away: isn't everything approved by the Governing board? | 18:14 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: saw mention, will check scrollback later | 20:27 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: without a council you a) worry about people with veto then b) Just Do It. If you require external resources, you have to convince each person (or their taskmaster) individually. | 20:39 |
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| Jaffa | Fun times. | 20:39 |
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| pavlix | are there any plans to support python3 in meego in the near future? | 20:52 |
| timeless_mbp | Jaffa: hey, i got mxr.meego.com :) | 20:52 |
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| slonopotamus | pavlix: it's safe to think you were told "no" | 20:57 |
| CosmoHill | what's the current version of python? | 20:57 |
| pavlix | slonopotamus: and the long answer? :) | 20:57 |
| timeless_mbp | "no. no. no" ? :) | 20:58 |
| CosmoHill | "GTFO"? | 20:58 |
| timeless_mbp | +2? | 20:58 |
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| pavlix | timeless_mbp: how funny :) | 20:59 |
| timeless_mbp | i try :) | 20:59 |
| Stskeeps | pavlix: i think p2.6 or something is there but not p3 yet | 20:59 |
| pavlix | CosmoHill: I hope this was not for me | 20:59 |
| CosmoHill | no | 21:00 |
| CosmoHill | >.> | 21:00 |
| pavlix | :) | 21:00 |
| CosmoHill | I was taking a guess at the long answer | 21:00 |
| Stskeeps | pavlix: i think it would appear in community repos first | 21:00 |
| pavlix | Stskeeps: nobody told me about these yet :) any links to information? | 21:01 |
| pavlix | (yes, I'll try google first) | 21:01 |
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| timeless_mbp | you didn't search before asking here? tsk | 21:01 |
| Stskeeps | pavlix: still under construction | 21:02 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:02 |
| pavlix | ah :) | 21:02 |
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| pavlix | funny | 21:02 |
| timeless_mbp | pavlix: why should someone add another runtime to a mobile platform? | 21:02 |
| timeless_mbp | are there critical mobile apps which require python3? | 21:03 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: for the same reason someone added the previous one | 21:03 |
| timeless_mbp | pavlix: err | 21:03 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: does it matter? | 21:03 |
| timeless_mbp | yes | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | each runtime costs space | 21:04 |
| Stskeeps | pavlix: think its too late for 1.1 in official meego | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | space on mobile platforms is at a premium | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | adding an unnecessary runtime is stupid | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | most python apps support 2.x | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | they might or might not support 3.x | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | but they do generally support 2.x | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | which means there's very little reason to take in a 3.x runtime | 21:05 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: are you sure that the repository servers are going to run out of space any soon? | 21:05 |
| timeless_mbp | um | 21:05 |
| timeless_mbp | did i say anything about repositories? | 21:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | a mobile platform is a thing that comes as part of the base hardware for a mobile device | 21:05 |
| timeless_mbp | it isn't an "add on" | 21:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | it's the *base* | 21:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | that's part of the definition of a _platform_ | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | you stand on it | 21:06 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: are you a maintainer or something? | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | and as Stskeeps has noted, it's too late for 1.1 | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | and the reality is that 1.1 is the "near future" | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | which means your question has been answered | 21:06 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: are you in a position to say new versions of python are not suitable for meego? | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | in the generic sense? no | 21:07 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: if not, please stop this rant | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | but you didn't ask that question | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | you asked a much narrower question | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | and i gave you a fairly reasonable and reasoned answer | 21:07 |
| timeless_mbp | http://meego.com/users/pavlix 404 (Page Not Found) | 21:07 |
| lcuk | and I think you have quite a good understanding of the issues | 21:08 |
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| pavlix | timeless_mbp: I don't see your answer at all, just plain rant. I kindly ask you to stop it. | 21:08 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: I already got my answer from the others. | 21:09 |
| timeless_mbp | pavlix‣slonopotamus: and the long answer? :) | 21:09 |
| timeless_mbp | timeless_mbp‣"no. no. no" ? :) | 21:09 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: ok, there it is... but it became hidden in this sort of useless debate you started | 21:09 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: I would be really happy to stop it | 21:10 |
| * timeless_mbp sighs | 21:11 | |
| timeless_mbp | silly guests | 21:11 |
| lcuk | pavlix, since you have an answer now, let me ask - what do you specifically need for python 3? | 21:11 |
| lcuk | what is the benfit of using it instead of hte included version | 21:11 |
| slonopotamus | pavlix: much software doesn't work with python 3. and having two pythons on embedded devices is a strange thing | 21:11 |
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| timeless_mbp | slonopotamus: we could ship 4 instead :) | 21:12 |
| slonopotamus | actually having python at all is suspicious already :) | 21:12 |
| timeless_mbp | there were plans to ship 4 webkits :) | 21:12 |
| pavlix | lcuk: nothing special, I was just asking because I got an advice to use python 3 instead of python 2 for its better memory management (the field was gobject/clutter) | 21:13 |
| timeless_mbp | you got relatively bad advice | 21:13 |
| pavlix | lcuk: may i have a non-technical question? Is this room members-only? Did I deserve being called silly? | 21:13 |
| lcuk | pavlix, on which platform was that advice given? | 21:13 |
| pavlix | lcuk: I asked about known problems with pygtk applications | 21:14 |
| lcuk | pavlix, well, you took the answers that a long time member with good reputation and knowledge and threw it in his face | 21:14 |
| lcuk | so I can understand the tension honestly | 21:14 |
| timeless_mbp | pavlix: you do realize that gtk isn't really supported on meego, right? | 21:14 |
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| timeless_mbp | the official future for meego is Qt | 21:15 |
| thiago_home | timeless_mbp: 4? I can only think of three: QtWebKit, webkit-gtk and one for Chrome/Chromium | 21:15 |
| thiago_home | timeless_mbp: where did you see a fourth? | 21:15 |
| timeless_mbp | thiago: nokia makes things much more exciting | 21:15 |
| Khertan | timeless_mbp, and pyside :) | 21:15 |
| pavlix | lcuk: I didn't react on the answer, though, I only reacted to something that I felt was offending to me | 21:15 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, do chrome and chromium destructively install over each other? | 21:15 |
| timeless_mbp | thankfully we decided not to ship 4 :) | 21:15 |
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| pavlix | lcuk: intentionally offending in my opinion | 21:16 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: I don't know. MeeGo's image is my first contact with either of them. | 21:16 |
| lcuk | reasonable enough | 21:16 |
| pavlix | but let it be... I hope I can have easy time here in the future | 21:16 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: not really... that's a news to me | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | thiago: is there a useful link indicating that Qt is the official future for MeeGo? | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Intel-and-Nokia-MeeGo/ is the first link i can find | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | and that's hardly useful canon | 21:17 |
| thiago_home | timeless_mbp: the original announcement and everything else, I guess | 21:17 |
| Khertan | pavlix, the problem of python is mainly that a great number of python third party module aren't ready yet for py3.1 | 21:17 |
| timeless_mbp | http://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one | 21:18 |
| thiago_home | the architecture diagrams too | 21:18 |
| pavlix | Khertan: I'm actually still deciding about the frontend's programming launguage, it can just as well be C | 21:18 |
| timeless_mbp | thiago: the architecture diagram is actually misleading | 21:18 |
| timeless_mbp | at least the first one i can find | 21:19 |
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| lcuk | pavlix, depending on your target (and since you are in #meego) you should be looking towards qt as a frontend dev toolkit | 21:19 |
| Khertan | pavlix, python pyside/qt could be an option, depending what you are trying to do | 21:19 |
| pavlix | is it correct, that meego netbook is built on top of clutter and mx? | 21:19 |
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| Khertan | pavlix, for the moment | 21:20 |
| lcuk | pavlix, thats as maybe, but the recommendations from everywhere is to develop and code apps in qt itself | 21:20 |
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| lcuk | then you will gain ability to span meego as it expands | 21:20 |
| slonopotamus | timeless_mbp: what puzzles me in webkit is why it isn't a separate shared object but instead bundled in all stuff | 21:20 |
| lcuk | i suggest you have a good read through the meego.com site and about development best practices | 21:21 |
| * RST38h cackles at gtk+ and clutter not going anywhere from Meego | 21:21 | |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: shh | 21:21 |
| lcuk | yes, shhh | 21:21 |
| pavlix | :) | 21:21 |
| timeless_mbp | http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture | 21:21 |
| RST38h | It is true that Nokia may not "support" them, but there are other parties in the equations... | 21:21 |
| timeless_mbp | is worth a read, pay more attn to the text | 21:21 |
| timeless_mbp | and note that MeeGo API = Qt | 21:22 |
| pavlix | actually, I don't care much about gtk/clutter/qt flamewars | 21:22 |
| timeless_mbp | pavlix: you prefer python wars? | 21:22 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm giving you friendly advice | 21:22 |
| * lcuk giggles | 21:22 | |
| timeless_mbp | building on pygtk is not a good idea for meego | 21:22 |
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| timeless_mbp | because the gtk side of things is not on the "very supported" or "recommended" side of things | 21:23 |
| lcuk | pavlix, sure, then read up and have a proper look at whether qt will fit your app | 21:23 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: I value that... and I'm sorry if it wasn't obvious | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | it wasn't | 21:23 |
| lcuk | since you dont care for the language and havent written it, yet | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | at all | 21:23 |
| lcuk | its a good chance | 21:23 |
| RST38h | pavlix: Actually, if you want something implemented in Meego, the best way is to do it by yourself and then present it to the public | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | but keep in mind that certain boats have saled | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | err sailed | 21:23 |
| timeless_mbp | you should definitely read to discover which those are | 21:24 |
| pavlix | RST38h: if I wanted something implemented in Meego, I would be very happy to do it the way you suggest | 21:24 |
| Khertan | git clone http://github.com/astraw/stdeb.git | 21:24 |
| RST38h | pavlix: There is no way you are going to influence any of Intel or Nokia developers working on Meego | 21:24 |
| Khertan | oups wrong windows | 21:24 |
| timeless_mbp | people who e.g. ask for .deb do not get a good welcome :) | 21:24 |
| RST38h | pavlix: You will just get sneered at, or explained why things will not happen | 21:24 |
| timeless_mbp | pavlix: note that in general, you're better served by making _small_ notable contributions before you try to make a big change | 21:25 |
| pavlix | RST38h: stop this, please, I never suggested I would ever want to influence them | 21:25 |
| RST38h | pavlix: So, if you want a particular version of Python or Py-extensions, package them for Meego and make them available | 21:25 |
| RST38h | Stop what? | 21:25 |
| pavlix | RST38h: answering to things I haven't ever said | 21:25 |
| RST38h | Well, as you wish | 21:26 |
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| pavlix | RST38h: I believe it was out of a misunderstanding | 21:26 |
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| pavlix | on both sides, as I probably misunderstood the purpose of MeeGo Core | 21:27 |
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| timeless_mbp | pavlix: a very valuable lesson: if you find multiple people reaching nearly the same conclusion. it's probably your fault | 21:27 |
| lcuk | thp, you can never leave facebook | 21:27 |
| timeless_mbp | e.g. there was a case @nokia where 3 localizers screwed up a translation of a string | 21:27 |
| timeless_mbp | the fault didn't lie w/ the localizers, it lied w/ the original string | 21:27 |
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| timeless_mbp | s/lied/lay/ | 21:28 |
| infobot | timeless_mbp meant: the fault didn't lie w/ the localizers, it lay w/ the original string | 21:28 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, to be fair, using the word penis in that error message WAS necessary :P | 21:28 |
| slonopotamus | :D | 21:28 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: not that one! =b | 21:28 |
| RST38h | Now we know who came up with the original message | 21:28 |
| * timeless_mbp thinks it was in the Image Viewer | 21:28 | |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: I couldn't imagine how multiple people could reach the conclusion that I asked someone to include python3 in meego core, when I did not | 21:28 |
| timeless_mbp | something like "turn to horizontal" | 21:28 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: So, is N9 going to have an orifice of sorts? Is there a Qt API for that? | 21:29 |
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| thiago_home | there's no N9 | 21:29 |
| lcuk | whats the N9? | 21:29 |
| CosmoHill | lcuk: imaginary | 21:29 |
| RST38h | That aluminium gadget which leaked a few days ago | 21:29 |
| lcuk | a leaking orifice? | 21:29 |
| CosmoHill | i saw a video of it last week | 21:29 |
| Khertan | ah the proto ? | 21:29 |
| thiago_home | it doesn't exist until it's officially announced | 21:29 |
| thiago_home | if it's officially announced | 21:30 |
| slonopotamus | leaky aluminuim gadget :/ oh my | 21:30 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: in #maemo iirc we agreed not to discuss hypothetical products | 21:30 |
| timeless_mbp | it's considered rude and unfair to those whom might be victims | 21:30 |
| thiago_home | nor do we here, especially since there's a lot of Nokia people | 21:30 |
| thiago_home | including me | 21:30 |
| timeless_mbp | can we please reach the same conclusion for #meego | 21:30 |
| lcuk | ++ | 21:31 |
| lcuk | for no other reason other than I want to play it again tonight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI&NR=1 | 21:31 |
| RST38h | timeless: You are not required to discuss anything you do not want to discuss. | 21:31 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: i'll repeat? | 21:31 |
| timeless_mbp | it's unfair to those of us who are hypothetical victims | 21:31 |
| timeless_mbp | please feel free to use talk or any other forum where we aren't forced to be | 21:31 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: if you start discussing a leaked product or rumour of one, I'll have to just turn away from the discussion | 21:31 |
| RST38h | You are being forced to be on IRC? | 21:32 |
| thiago_home | and so will all the nokians around, or those under NDAs from Nokia | 21:32 |
| timeless_mbp | part of being a community is being conscious and considerate of all members | 21:32 |
| * RST38h sighs | 21:32 | |
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| slonopotamus | RST38h: it's stupid, yep :) | 21:32 |
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| RST38h | Community? What community? | 21:32 |
| timeless_mbp | if i want to be involved in meego? yes, i pretty much have to be here | 21:32 |
| timeless_mbp | and yes, my affiliation is listed in my meego/users page, i'm a good boy | 21:33 |
| * Stskeeps is with timeless_mbp | 21:33 | |
| slonopotamus | RST38h: in irc, though, ops set the rules :) | 21:33 |
| timeless_mbp | http://meego.com/community/irc-channel | 21:33 |
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| timeless_mbp | that's clearly under "community" =b | 21:33 |
| RST38h | slonopotamus: Yes, but limiting someone's freedom of speech for an arbitrary reason like this pretty much means losing a face in my book | 21:34 |
| pavlix | well, is there a reason to think that clutter/mx will get phased out of meego? | 21:34 |
| timeless_mbp | pavlix: please read the published docs | 21:34 |
| RST38h | pavlix: Yes. | 21:34 |
| timeless_mbp | it was in the announcements | 21:34 |
| slonopotamus | timeless_mbp: your link talks about "open discussion" | 21:34 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: freedom of speech is limited by rules of community | 21:34 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: and you're in this channel under the rules set forth by the channel ops | 21:35 |
| slonopotamus | thiago_home: link to community rules? | 21:35 |
| thiago_home | you don't have to be here | 21:35 |
| thiago_home | slonopotamus: in the general sense | 21:35 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: I'm of course doing it | 21:35 |
| RST38h | thiago: I suggest you carefully consider the stuff you have just said. | 21:35 |
| timeless_mbp | pavlix: please learn that "Shoot first ask questions later" is not a good policy | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | there's that "community" thing again... follow our rules or you're excluded | 21:35 |
| thiago_home | anyway, if a Nokia rumour or leak is being discussed, all Nokians will have to stop talking | 21:35 |
| timeless_mbp | if and when you do it, you will find yourself being shot at, quickly, rapidly, and without remorse | 21:35 |
| pavlix | timeless_mbp: I first asked, then was shooted, then reacted | 21:35 |
| * timeless_mbp leaves | 21:35 | |
| thiago_home | and the result is that you won't benefit from our expertise in the discussion | 21:36 |
| smoku | RST38h, is disallowing cursing also limitting freedom of speach in your opinion? | 21:36 |
| pavlix | does it mean this is an elite discussion forum where new people interested in meego are not welcome? | 21:36 |
| RST38h | Not that I am benefitting from it as it is... | 21:36 |
| pavlix | if so, I will leave | 21:36 |
| thiago_home | pavlix: no one has said anything close to that | 21:36 |
| RST38h | smoku: Depends on the amount of cursing | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | thing is that it's possible for an irc channel to be used for multiple topics at the same time | 21:37 |
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| ali1234 | what you are really saying is "if you don't do what we say, we're taking our ball and leaving" | 21:37 |
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| thiago_home | yes, pretty much | 21:37 |
| pavlix | thiago_home: I am sure I really tried hard to keep in reasonable style of discussion and I try hard not to ask stupid questions | 21:37 |
| thiago_home | we're not allowed to discuss or comment or rumours or leaks | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | so don't | 21:38 |
| RST38h | smoku: Banning everyone who mutters "shit" is a gross overkill, but if someone's messages consist mostly of cursing, than I agree that the person needs to be removed on technical grounds (too much noise) | 21:38 |
| thiago_home | exactly, don't | 21:38 |
| lcuk | thats pretty standard for any industry | 21:38 |
| thiago_home | don't make us leave | 21:38 |
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| thiago_home | I don't mean leave the channel. But we must stop talking. | 21:38 |
| ali1234 | thiago_home: you don't have to leave. or are you actually not even allowed to *read* the rumours? | 21:38 |
| thiago_home | oh, yeah. I read all the rumours. | 21:38 |
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| lcuk | actually, I think leaving the chan would be the right course of action | 21:39 |
| thiago_home | I get a good laugh of some of them | 21:39 |
| pavlix | and even though I am new to meego, I believe I might eventually become part of the community, or not | 21:39 |
| thiago_home | and of some I get worried | 21:39 |
| smoku | RST38h, replace "cursing" with "discussing vaporware" and you're right | 21:39 |
| RST38h | smoku: No. Discussing vaporware is a legitimate activity | 21:39 |
| smoku | RST38h, both are things not accepted by the majority of the community | 21:39 |
| RST38h | smoku: What community, again? | 21:39 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: there are 400+ people in here | 21:40 |
| smoku | you may find communities enjoying cursing and join them | 21:40 |
| thiago_home | that's one community | 21:40 |
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| thiago_home | there's a lot of people working in MeeGo, others posting in meego-dev | 21:40 |
| thiago_home | those are communities | 21:40 |
| slonopotamus | ali1234: "community" thing is actually just plain old oligarchy | 21:40 |
| ali1234 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman | 21:40 |
| RST38h | thiago: and they automatically become a "community"? | 21:40 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: a group of people gathered around a topic, with rules, is a community | 21:41 |
| thiago_home | so, yes, it does | 21:41 |
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| thiago_home | rules, rights and responsibilities | 21:41 |
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| RST38h | thiago: Have you got a dictionary entry to back your definition? | 21:42 |
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| slonopotamus | ali1234: thanks for a fun reading :) | 21:43 |
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| thiago_home | RST38h: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/community | 21:44 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: I think several of those apply | 21:44 |
| leinir | There are so many hilariously wrong rumours ;) | 21:44 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: "a group linked by a common policy" | 21:44 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: "a group of people with a common characteristic or interest living together within a larger society" | 21:44 |
| RST38h | thiago: I am not linked by the same policy as you. | 21:44 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: "a body of persons of common and especially professional interests scattered through a larger society" | 21:44 |
| RST38h | thiago: And there is no mention of rules, is there? | 21:45 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: you may not be part of the Nokia community, but you are of the MeeGo community | 21:45 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: rules don't have to be written down to exist | 21:45 |
| RST38h | thiago: I am not even part of the Meego community. | 21:45 |
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| thiago_home | tacit rules | 21:45 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: you're here quite often, I consider you part of the community | 21:45 |
| slonopotamus | thiago_home: common interest - okay, RST38h is included. common policy - no way until meego has a declared policy | 21:45 |
| thiago_home | slonopotamus: you're also assuming that policy requires written down rules | 21:46 |
| RST38h | thiago: Anyways, I suggest you quietly rethink the statements you have made during the last 20 minutes or so | 21:46 |
| thiago_home | which ones? | 21:46 |
| thiago_home | that this is a community? I stand by it | 21:46 |
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| slonopotamus | thiago_home: yep. otherwise you can't be sure people follow same policy | 21:46 |
| RST38h | thiago: COnsider some examples, counter examples, take a few of your suggestions to the extreme, etc | 21:46 |
| thiago_home | that community implies some sort of rules of engagement? I stand by it | 21:46 |
| lcuk | RST38h, you are being a bit prickly tonight :( | 21:47 |
| RST38h | Then I can safely say that I am not part of the community | 21:47 |
| thiago_home | should there be some written rules? Yes, but that doesn't mean that unwritten ones can't exist. | 21:47 |
| RST38h | Because I choose to set my own rules of engagement | 21:47 |
| lcuk | people are considering their workplace a community and there are folks coming around thinking it is and it will be properly | 21:47 |
| thiago_home | yes, you can do that | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | if a community is going to have rules beyond basic common sense, it damn well better be by mutual consent, and clearly spelled out in writing. | 21:47 |
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| lcuk | as long as we give up on bikeshedding about what a community is and other misc rants | 21:47 |
| thiago_home | but if you were to set those rules as adversarial, cursing and just in general annoyance, don't you think you'd get kicked off this channel? | 21:48 |
| RST38h | lcuk: I am a bit tired of the endless politicking going on at maemo.org, considering the lack of any real action | 21:48 |
| CosmoHill | "bikeshedding"? | 21:48 |
| RST38h | lcuk: And troubled by even more politicking and even less action in meego.com | 21:48 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding | 21:48 |
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| lcuk | sure RST38h | 21:48 |
| * lcuk understands that clearly | 21:49 | |
| lcuk | but as you have seen things are moving and pieces adjusting | 21:49 |
| CosmoHill | ah I see | 21:49 |
| RST38h | lcuk: not really | 21:49 |
| RST38h | lcuk: I see people who do not give a shit about policy doing cool stuff | 21:49 |
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| Stskeeps | thiago_home: i'd like to ask you to raise this topic on meego-community, as these channels is supposed to be work channels and hence everyone involved should feel comfortable.. harms development if people are uncomfortable working in the open or declaring affiliation | 21:50 |
| lcuk | RST38h, I see cool stuff all around also | 21:50 |
| RST38h | lcuk: ANd I see people who contribute NOTHING of visible value establish policies | 21:50 |
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| lcuk | i agree | 21:50 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: that pretty much sums up my opinion too | 21:50 |
| lcuk | but just because its not seen does not mean its not important | 21:50 |
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| lcuk | for instance, the tsg - we do not see them in here often listening and taking part | 21:51 |
| slonopotamus | Stskeeps: when you see some crap on t.m.o, you discuss it on irc. where do you discuss such things happenning on irc? :) i have to be there | 21:51 |
| lcuk | but they hear about what happens | 21:51 |
| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: feel free to create ##meego or ##nokia | 21:52 |
| lcuk | slonopotamus, extending the info from irc out does occur | 21:52 |
| lcuk | it filters through slower though | 21:52 |
| smoku | slonopotamus, #mer :) | 21:52 |
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| lcuk | some of the best things to happen in maemo occur as seed conversations in irc | 21:52 |
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| slonopotamus | smoku: :D | 21:52 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: Most policies I see being establish harm people rather than help them | 21:52 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: Maybe the help "the community" but they harm the people | 21:53 |
| pavlix | hmm, i wonder whether it is wrong to treat meego as just another linux distribution or not... I mean, not developing specifically to the meego api (Qt, as I was told and as it is written on the meego.com site) | 21:53 |
| lcuk | pavlix, qt is code once deploy anywhere | 21:53 |
| RST38h | lcuk: For example, discussing leaks is completely relevant w.r.t. Maemo/Meego channel topics | 21:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Given its motivations, treating as just another distro may not be entirely productive. | 21:53 |
| lcuk | qt native apps run in windows linux mac meego maemo and beyond | 21:53 |
| slonopotamus | pavlix: it's both a distro and a place where new software is developed | 21:53 |
| RST38h | lcuk: It is not noise, either | 21:53 |
| lcuk | try that with any other system | 21:54 |
| RST38h | lcuk: And prohibiting such discussions on the basis that Nokia employees cannot participate in them is illogical | 21:54 |
| lcuk | RST38h, no, discussing leaks in a public irc channel amongst nokia/intel employees is off form, and you should have a piece of paper from your own employer talking about things like that I imagine | 21:54 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: think about another thing: this channel has official status, right? | 21:54 |
| pavlix | lcuk: that said, we know the basic advantage of Nokia's Qt | 21:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, just take it elsewhere. I mean, are we so attached to this "community" and this channel that it needs to be an issue. ;) | 21:54 |
| lcuk | and please account for that with the rest of people around | 21:54 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Well, you do not see ME talking about my employer in public, do you ? | 21:55 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, no, you push the uglyness towards those with other employers | 21:55 |
| lcuk | so please have some tact | 21:55 |
| thiago_home | that's my point here too | 21:55 |
| RST38h | lcuk: But I will never even consider banning someone else from talking about my employer in public only because it makes me blush :) | 21:55 |
| thiago_home | this channel has official status | 21:55 |
| thiago_home | by discussing rumours in here, you throw some bad light at those companies | 21:56 |
| thiago_home | or confusion, at least | 21:56 |
| RST38h | There is no such thing as "official status" of an IRC channel. It is a channel. | 21:56 |
| lcuk | RST38h, just think please, this isnt a ban thing | 21:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, Freenode there is. | 21:56 |
| lcuk | this is a common sense thing | 21:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Although I'm not actually sure if the contact form has been processed. | 21:56 |
| thiago_home | press or bloggers could be here and think that the discussion is official, that the N9 (or other device) is real and that details are real | 21:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | (given it took 18 months for #maemo's . . . .) | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: we are having ops contact us like it was, so | 21:56 |
| pavlix | I'm very interested about that community repository plan | 21:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, silly argument. | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | me and dawn is contact points atm | 21:57 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: real argument | 21:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, your first was more effective. | 21:57 |
| lcuk | yeah GeneralAntilles I imagine the GRF speed in the queue will depend on a number of factors such as anticipated size and followup and corporate push | 21:57 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: then put them both together | 21:57 |
| lcuk | i have one in for #liqbase | 21:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Bloggers and journalists will think what they want to think. | 21:57 |
| RST38h | Anyways, I will go get some sleep | 21:57 |
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| RST38h | All this "official community" business is pretty rotten if you ask me | 21:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, the whole business is rotten. | 21:58 |
| * lcuk just wants to be able to change the /topic in #liqbase | 21:58 | |
| RST38h | But I guess it will just lead to creation of #meego2 or something like that, as it always does. | 21:58 |
| lcuk | RST38h, question for whilst you sleep | 21:58 |
| lcuk | think about writing a proper post about your feelings | 21:58 |
| lcuk | rather than just irc | 21:58 |
| lcuk | and #meego2 is invalid due to the namespace | 21:59 |
| lcuk | ##meego is valid | 21:59 |
| lcuk | for non official stuffs | 21:59 |
| RST38h | lcuk: I have no deep feelings on the subject and do not believe in writing posts | 21:59 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: yeah, but if they come here and see people discussing the N9 rumour, they will report even more stupid stuff | 21:59 |
| thiago_home | that's a disserivce | 21:59 |
| ali1234 | i would write one but it would be tl;dr and you'd all just say i was trolling anyway | 21:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | ali1234, who cares? It's ammo anyway. | 22:00 |
| RST38h | lcuk: As one book character said, "only stupid people write to newspapers" | 22:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nobody's put down the issues in one spot. | 22:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which makes pointing to them difficult. | 22:01 |
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| lcuk | serious business | 22:05 |
| lcuk | thp said he has some of gpodder working in meego | 22:05 |
| lcuk | its a gtk app | 22:05 |
| lcuk | and he used his desktop gtk port to do it | 22:05 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, gpodder is more compatible cos of its non hildon stuff | 22:06 |
| lcuk | yeah, my point | 22:06 |
| lcuk | so its one of the first gtk community apps to see the light | 22:06 |
| lcuk | how many problems he will have is another issue | 22:06 |
| * lpotter thinks gpodder is a bit clunky | 22:06 | |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, how much of hildon did you actually hack to get it into mer originally? | 22:07 |
| pavlix | lcuk how can one join this community apps/repos effort? | 22:07 |
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| lcuk | and is it worth following that branch to completion? | 22:07 |
| lcuk | I know you have your branch on gitorious | 22:08 |
| lcuk | it was running on x86 last I saw of it | 22:08 |
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| lcuk | pavlix, the community repos are being constructed, keep your eye on stskeeps and lbt and meego obs stuff | 22:09 |
| pavlix | thanks | 22:11 |
| * timeless_mbp wonders if zenity is in | 22:12 | |
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| lcuk | zenity is the console message dialog thing isnt it? | 22:13 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah | 22:14 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk, theoretically we could run maemo gtk in meego.. | 22:14 |
| lcuk | yeah, would a person hacking have a slightly easier time with your patches | 22:14 |
| lcuk | or were they not in the right direction still | 22:15 |
| lcuk | ie, were they still targetting uuntu/deblet/mer stuff specifically | 22:15 |
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| mikhas | Stskeeps, I am sure someone will be crazy enough to just do that ;-) | 22:16 |
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| Stskeeps | sigh, me again.. | 22:16 |
| lcuk | mikhas, i hope they will be | 22:16 |
| lcuk | theres some excellent apps around | 22:16 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, is that an offer \o/ | 22:17 |
| Stskeeps | if someone else takes it over | 22:17 |
| lcuk | i think we could happily work together to do it, theres a lot of patches being played with in maemo hildon stuff atm | 22:17 |
| lcuk | and finding a way to benefit both sides would be good | 22:18 |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, theres all sorts of other more important blockers atm, but I will start discussing it | 22:21 |
| lcuk | (blockers for you I mean with other important work) | 22:21 |
| Stskeeps | theming is a bitch | 22:22 |
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| lcuk | yeah | 22:23 |
| mikhas | (ditch theming, then) | 22:23 |
| lcuk | it is with any system | 22:23 |
| Stskeeps | but i suppose its close enough to nuvofre | 22:23 |
| lcuk | is there a similar theming system to what we have in maemo | 22:23 |
| smoku | mikhas, I am that crazy person ;P | 22:23 |
| lcuk | that people like wazd could hack to | 22:23 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, I mean it might be more work for a theme designer, but to make a big bulk qt+gtk theme pack | 22:24 |
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| lcuk | using a major hack of konttori's theme maker | 22:24 |
| lcuk | or just get qt themes exported into gtk compatible format | 22:24 |
| lcuk | and run on the fly after installing a qt one | 22:25 |
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| smoku | http://code.google.com/p/qgtkstyle/ or http://code.google.com/p/gtk-qt-engine/ ? | 22:31 |
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| Stskeeps | latter | 22:32 |
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| lcuk | awesome! | 22:33 |
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| ora-666 | awesome will be MeeGo WM?? Great! | 22:34 |
| ora-666 | gnome for trash filler! | 22:35 |
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| CosmoHill | troll? | 22:35 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, if you feel like it | 22:36 |
| CosmoHill | hehe | 22:36 |
| * lcuk vanishes | 22:37 | |
| lcuk | cyas later \o | 22:37 |
| CosmoHill | bye | 22:38 |
| * ora-666 is awesome user) | 22:38 | |
| * Jaffa reads lots of scrollback, pointlessly. | 22:41 | |
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| smoku | Jaffa, +1 | 22:42 |
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| thp | Stskeeps: so, what's the chances of getting maemo gtk+/hildon into meego? (and does it still depend on hildon-desktop for some stuff like the appmenu?) | 22:50 |
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| smoku | thp, zero. | 22:51 |
| vlj | hi | 22:51 |
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| vlj | Stskeeps: can you give me your "catchall" xorg.conf again please ? :) | 22:52 |
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| smoku | thp, MeeGo is Qt based and will not provide GTK+ at all | 22:52 |
| vlj | well you can provide gtk+ and qt | 22:53 |
| vlj | qt can use gtk+ | 22:53 |
| thp | smoku: sure. but i'm talking about the technical possibility, not politics / blessings / "the one true toolkit" | 22:53 |
| smoku | which is good, because we can just use Maemo GTK+ with hidon changes, without worrying to run hildon on stock GTK+ | 22:53 |
| smoku | I am working on packaging hildon (and the rest of fremantle) for meego | 22:54 |
| thp | smoku: great :) that's what i wanted to hear :p | 22:55 |
| smoku | of course, if you want to run Hildon on stock GTK+ it is possible to. Stskeeps already ported libhildon to stock GTK_ | 22:55 |
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| smoku | there are some changes reqited to hildon if you want to run it with meego window manager | 22:56 |
| smoku | but if you don't and are fine with hildon-desktop, you can just use fremantle sources as-is | 22:57 |
| thp | are there repositories for the libhildon packages already? | 22:57 |
| mikhas | smoku, fascinating | 22:57 |
| smoku | OBS home:smoku | 22:57 |
| smoku | but nut much working now | 22:57 |
| smoku | there are so many packages, that I do not port them manually - instead I'm writing deb2rpm converter script | 22:58 |
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| timeless_mbp | smoku: are you converting binaries or sources? | 23:01 |
| smoku | timeless_mbp, sources | 23:01 |
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| smoku | my script generates SPEC from debian/ dir :) | 23:06 |
| smoku | not perfect of course. more of a skeleton | 23:07 |
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| timeless_mbp | seems fairly useful | 23:16 |
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| vlj | hi | 23:17 |
| vlj | err | 23:17 |
| vlj | how can I maximize a window in Meego ? | 23:17 |
| vlj | there is just a quit button | 23:18 |
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| timeless_mbp | in maemo, there's no need to maximize, windows are always maximized or full screen... | 23:30 |
| vlj | not in meego | 23:31 |
| timeless_mbp | window management doesn't really make sense to consumers or in general on small screens... | 23:31 |
| timeless_mbp | really? | 23:32 |
| vlj | at least not on a 15' wide screen | 23:32 |
| vlj | yup | 23:32 |
| timeless_mbp | is that a supported config? | 23:32 |
| vlj | in ubuntu all windows are maximised by default | 23:32 |
| vlj | I don't think it is supporter | 23:33 |
| vlj | d | 23:33 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1051&bih=712&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=meego+netbook+screenshots&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= | 23:33 |
| timeless_mbp | is what i'm looking at, i can't find any which show indications of other things | 23:33 |
| Stskeeps | vlj: maximized by default in handset ux at least | 23:35 |
| vlj | ok | 23:35 |
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| Macer | so. any phone support in meego for the n900 yet? | 23:53 |
| Macer | :) | 23:53 |
| Stskeeps | we can turn on the modem and people have had gprs working | 23:53 |
| Stskeeps | in ofono | 23:53 |
| Stskeeps | but i'm off to sleep now | 23:54 |
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| vlj | ntp does not seem to work | 23:57 |
| Stskeeps | too high drift in clock? | 23:58 |
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| vlj | it tells me it is 2:58 am | 23:58 |
| vlj | monday 23. | 23:59 |
| Stskeeps | timezone? | 23:59 |
| vlj | but it is "just" 22:58 pm sunday 22. ;) | 23:59 |
| vlj | Europe/Paris | 23:59 |
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