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| CosmoHill | cyas | 01:19 |
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| josemoreira | hi | 02:47 |
| josemoreira | anyone else "having a problem with fonts" ? | 02:48 |
| josemoreira | i've set all fonts to 8px but UI fonts still have the same size | 02:48 |
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| kisse | omg... what instant messenger does MeeGo use? | 02:52 |
| josemoreira | Telepathy? | 02:53 |
| josemoreira | i miss xchat over there :/ | 02:53 |
| josemoreira | but i love. its amazing. but i need xchat | 02:54 |
| josemoreira | and smaller UI fonts | 02:54 |
| kisse | well, like my problem is that it totally blows off invisible mode for various people | 02:55 |
| kisse | so, there's this person who is highly prone to harassing me, is now harassing me again | 02:55 |
| kisse | and I can't find anything to block them | 02:56 |
| josemoreira | tell them your gay :p | 02:56 |
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| josemoreira | or you have aids and its contagious over the internet | 02:57 |
| kisse | um.. a) I'm a girl, and b) the other person is a girl as well | 02:57 |
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| josemoreira | errhmm | 02:57 |
| josemoreira | well if it gets really nasty you can do 1 thing, but its .... really for last resorts | 02:58 |
| kisse | yeah, I'm very much wanting to not get into cat fights with this bitch, and that's why she's on my block list, and everything, but I don't have any way to do it | 02:58 |
| josemoreira | tell her you.... shhh .... *use Windows* | 02:59 |
| josemoreira | ;P | 02:59 |
| kisse | heh | 02:59 |
| josemoreira | what networks is that? msn? | 02:59 |
| kisse | I have Win7, but my free activation period just expired | 02:59 |
| kisse | eh... she has me on YIM and MSN | 02:59 |
| josemoreira | cant you block her on the websites? | 03:00 |
| josemoreira | i heard you can manage contacts on the windows msn website | 03:00 |
| kisse | she was already blocked a long time ago | 03:00 |
| josemoreira | and its not working? :/ | 03:00 |
| kisse | using pidgin things work fine, and she isn't all "why are you unblocking me... you must be plotting some shit agianst me, I hate you, die in a fire, fuck you, I hate you" | 03:01 |
| kisse | yeah, it's not working | 03:01 |
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| josemoreira | ./ | 03:01 |
| josemoreira | report it to microsoft? | 03:02 |
| kisse | yeah, so now that my Win7 has expired, and I can't block her in MeeGo, I no longer have IM | 03:02 |
| josemoreira | send an email to support | 03:02 |
| josemoreira | kisse, install ubuntu? | 03:02 |
| josemoreira | or mint, i like mint | 03:02 |
| kisse | yeah, I'm debating just installing SUSE right now | 03:02 |
| kisse | XFCE isn't that bad | 03:02 |
| josemoreira | ye suse is nice but .... | 03:02 |
| kisse | <--- Germanophile here | 03:03 |
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| josemoreira | my opinion is that the debian package managers/repos are a lot better | 03:03 |
| josemoreira | im portuguese and i love suse also | 03:03 |
| josemoreira | but its like i said | 03:03 |
| kisse | yeah, I can see that | 03:03 |
| josemoreira | i used to love it more before kde4 | 03:03 |
| josemoreira | cause their kde/gnome integration rocked and i was a fan of the old konqueror | 03:04 |
| kisse | I don't know... I'm religiously blocked from using KDE4 | 03:04 |
| josemoreira | mee to | 03:05 |
| josemoreira | i dont like the UI | 03:05 |
| josemoreira | but konqueror was the real deal | 03:05 |
| josemoreira | before nautilus got tabs :) | 03:06 |
| kisse | Back then, I was using Galeon | 03:06 |
| josemoreira | thats like, 1999 | 03:07 |
| josemoreira | :) | 03:07 |
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| lechuza | helo | 05:12 |
| lechuza | hello | 05:12 |
| lechuza | somebody here | 05:12 |
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| comradekingu | MeeGo 1.0 Netbook Update "a lot of translation update" ... | 08:10 |
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| fengshaun | is meego's source available fully? | 08:22 |
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| fengshaun | I mean, is it absolutely and completely open? (unlike android, which is only partially open) | 08:22 |
| comradekingu | There is a separate repo for non-oss so i suppose it is | 08:23 |
| fengshaun | comradekingu: what does non-oss contain? | 08:24 |
| comradekingu | non-open source software, presumably | 08:24 |
| fengshaun | can I have the link to such repo? | 08:24 |
| comradekingu | well, even debian has such a thing, question is how much does the actual installation pull in | 08:25 |
| fengshaun | I just want a truly open platform for my phone. Android doesn't cut it, it's too closed for my taste! | 08:26 |
| fengshaun | so much that I have to rely on rumors for what comes in the next version. | 08:26 |
| comradekingu | fengshaun: My suggestion would be debian | 08:27 |
| fengshaun | put debian on my phone? | 08:28 |
| comradekingu | fengshaun: make of it what you will | 08:29 |
| fengshaun | hmmm I haven't thought about it, but I'll look into that for sure. Thanks. | 08:30 |
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| comradekingu | fengshaun: http://www.gnewsense.org/index.php?n=FAQ.FAQ | 08:35 |
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| comradekingu | gNewSense 3.0 will be based on Debian, so thats that | 08:35 |
| fengshaun | comradekingu: cool! thanks a lot! Although that kind of 'free' is hardcore! | 08:36 |
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| comradekingu | fengshaun: Short of running GNU/hurd I suppose it is taking it to the extreme | 08:38 |
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| fengshaun | so, what parts of meego are still closed? | 08:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | the pieces that vendors choose not to open? | 09:30 |
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| meegodotby | hi all | 11:38 |
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| odin_ | Stskeeps, in relation to your recent thread meego-dev, part of the points raised (by others) was over the "shared infrastructure" i.e. that used under the and in the name of meego.com branding | 12:09 |
| odin_ | the point made by intel representatives was that there is a cost to adding an architecture to the shared infrastructure and that intel/nokia shouldn't be expected to fund unlimited expansion of meego in this way | 12:10 |
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| odin_ | this is understandable, but it is not clear how a body/corporation/group-of-people would get on equal footing under the meego branding if there is to be a situation that the shared infrastructure can only be used to further the product lines Intel/Nokia directly support | 12:12 |
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| odin_ | for example as soon as "shared infrastructure" it comes online people might wish to add i686 support (i.e. for systems without SSSE3) and also n8x0 (and even n900) support | 12:14 |
| odin_ | while this support is not directly supported by intel/nokia it does further the cause of MeeGo brand in a good way and intel/nokia is not expected to directly put any man-hours into it | 12:14 |
| odin_ | however there is a cost to hosting/building/distributing it, so what is not clear to me is how that works | 12:15 |
| Stskeeps | i'm going to need more coffee before discussing :) | 12:16 |
| odin_ | I hope soon for clarification, since a misunderstaning could result in a fork and a separate fund-raising initiative to obtain "independent shared infrastructure" that would truly be the communities, along the lines of debian/centos | 12:17 |
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| Stskeeps | other archs even on debian need donations of boards, i don't see why intel would have to donate MIPS boards.. as long as there's a possibility to get extra infrastructure bought, i don't see a problem | 12:18 |
| odin_ | such an effort might not carry the MeeGo branding (due to unknown legal issues) but a more generic "open distribution for linux on mobile/netbook/embedded devices", which would not be a good thing, as it would further fragment efforts | 12:18 |
| odin_ | sure on the more coffee! | 12:18 |
| Stskeeps | and keep in mind that it isn't only for furthering intel and nokia efforts, it is exclusively about the platforms supported! | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | meego infrastructure exists to support the roadmap | 12:19 |
| odin_ | well this point is the most important for my own continued interest in "MeeGo" | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | there is a big cost to build infrastructure and the LF umbrella exists for others to be able to put infra in. i think that makes sense. | 12:20 |
| odin_ | but I don't see anyone asking anyone to manage a MIPS platform, does that exist already in the spare MeeGo is in (portable and emebded devices) | 12:20 |
| odin_ | s/apre/space/ | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | i think you're worrying too much :) | 12:21 |
| odin_ | yes maybe I am, but this is the first time I have seem intel representatives hold a view that is problematic to me | 12:22 |
| Stskeeps | in the narrow space of build power, they have a pretty good point | 12:22 |
| Stskeeps | especially since setting up your own OBS or maybe even donating more power to the cluster is possible | 12:22 |
| odin_ | even if i686 and n8x0/n900 is not supported, I do expect to see it up on the shared infrastructure, maybe not with equal footing, since I would not have a problem if intel/nokia added extra resources dedicated to their goals (so long as some amount of shared/pooled resources exist for community lead goals) at the moment there are no resources (other than communication) | 12:23 |
| Termana | If this is the first time Intel has worried you, you must not have been watching what they have been doing. | 12:24 |
| Stskeeps | ok, you're writing too long sentences again - what should be run on the main meego builder is stuff that exists on the meego roadmap. | 12:24 |
| odin_ | Termana, what are your concerns then ? you mean Intel+Android ? or ??? | 12:24 |
| Stskeeps | the most common way to get things implemented on roadmap is saying you'll take the lead on it | 12:24 |
| Stskeeps | ie, resources, people, contributions | 12:25 |
| Termana | odin_, no I have concerns over things Intel have done regarding MeeGo. I have no concern that they are also supporting Android, the more the merrier. | 12:25 |
| Stskeeps | and the community OBS is right around the corner, as well | 12:25 |
| odin_ | Termana, feel free to explain further, I have concerns with any non-desktop compatible choices, where backward compatibility has been lost with Linux desktop/workstation/server/whatever, i.e. optimization is not king, interoperability is king | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | a product needs to be put out, resources are limited and additional architectures -does- slow down general process of project | 12:26 |
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| Stskeeps | if additional resources are not contributed | 12:27 |
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| Stskeeps | which, frankly, if you don't have tunnel vision and a general overview of the project, makes a lot of sense :) | 12:29 |
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| odin_ | yes understood on the main goals of intel/nokia interest, to get a end user product out the door, but also, they want a community and eco-system to continue to sell into for their efforts | 12:30 |
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| Stskeeps | actually, they just want a platform product out the door, like all of us - community and eco-system will appear using the community OBS and those efforts might be recognised and included into real roadmap | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | if we can't keep deadlines or get a product out, we might as well go home and call ourselves openmoko :P | 12:31 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: let's step back a bit | 12:32 |
| Termana | I personally dislike the fact that Intel has decided i386 is "not their platform". What's worse is they are setting it up so that i386 support is going to be a pain in the arse. Eg. apps will be compiled for SSSE3 platforms only. | 12:32 |
| odin_ | well its not even clear to me why MeeGo 1.1 will be a step up from Meamo5 PR1.2 or whatever, I'd be very happy with a straight conversion, its only other forces pushing for other changes | 12:32 |
| odin_ | Termana, yes I agree with the general sentiment there, if they used their own dynamic link path or ELF capabilities to achieve the goal then that would seem ok | 12:34 |
| Stskeeps | Termana: if they want to have a chance with power saving, they need to target atom somehow :P | 12:34 |
| Termana | Luckily, I don't concern myself with the x86 side of MeeGo, and only care about the ARM side. :P | 12:34 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: i think the best way to see meego is as a company. the 'owner' is linux foundation, investors are intel and nokia and others. a project structure has been set up, company plans (roadmap), budgets and such. the exception is that the employees of the company can be anyone and there's a free-flow HR process where people can walk into the building and watch how people work, perhaps give a hand. these people work on roadmap and use ... | 12:35 |
| odin_ | I don't myself see the connection between power saving and atom and how this connects with enforcing SSSE3, the matters seem unrelated to me | 12:35 |
| Stskeeps | ... company resources for that - when there's additional projects that needs resources it needs to be approved on budget, if sufficiently large, an investor might have to be found. | 12:35 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, now who's writing too long sentences now? :P hehe | 12:36 |
| Stskeeps | Termana: odin was going to preempt me in the middle of describing otherwise | 12:36 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:36 |
| odin_ | does anyone have an article on how SSSE3 optimizations apply to general compiler usage, I've looked over the insn set and can't see much that can be used for general purpose code | 12:38 |
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| odin_ | sure there are alignment and instruction order optimizations but those are backward/binary compatible with older generations of chips | 12:39 |
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| odin_ | SSSE3 implies a bunch of other SIMD schemes, so maybe the optimization for general purpose code generation relates to instructions in those older schemes (SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSE3.1 or whatever they are called) | 12:40 |
| Stskeeps | i think ssse3 makes things faster in general and makes things more convincing :P | 12:40 |
| Stskeeps | especially rendering | 12:40 |
| odin_ | you're not "convincing" me like that! | 12:40 |
| Stskeeps | i'm not here to convince you about ssse3 | 12:41 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:41 |
| odin_ | rendering is specialized, as in Mesa/OpenGL, I'm trying to understand the ABI changes, this is the breakage I have objections about | 12:41 |
| Stskeeps | the above was so you understand why some things are like they are, or opinions | 12:41 |
| Stskeeps | (the company thing) | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | there's general practical concerns behind things | 12:42 |
| odin_ | using newer CPU instructions support for optimizing specific libraries is not the problem, breaking the ABI linkage is | 12:43 |
| Stskeeps | when are they breaking abi linkage? :P | 12:43 |
| odin_ | having code that crashes with SIGILL | 12:43 |
| Stskeeps | you can still use i386 binaries on the meego atom platform? | 12:43 |
| odin_ | not sure on the answer to that | 12:44 |
| Stskeeps | i think you might be misunderstanding the problem a bit :) | 12:44 |
| Stskeeps | the SIGILL comes from people who are running SSSE3 binaries on non-SSSE3 machines | 12:44 |
| Stskeeps | normal i386 binaries work fine on meego atom platform | 12:44 |
| odin_ | no program should crash with SIGILL due to use of CPU specific instruction not supported by the Linux IA32 ABI | 12:44 |
| odin_ | ^^^ that project should not even run | 12:45 |
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| Stskeeps | [citation needed] | 12:45 |
| Stskeeps | i think SIGILL is a perfectly natural response to well, an illegal instruction, being asked to run a SSSE3 instruction on a non-SSSE3 system | 12:45 |
| odin_ | let me see what the wording of the Linux IA32 ABI reads | 12:46 |
| odin_ | yes when the kernel is forced into trying to execute it | 12:46 |
| Stskeeps | just like ARMv7 binaries doesn't run on ARMv5 | 12:46 |
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| odin_ | it is the correct response | 12:46 |
| Stskeeps | (and they share same EABI) | 12:46 |
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| odin_ | the problem is that there is no recovery mechanism for SIGILL (in most programs) | 12:47 |
| odin_ | so that means potential data lossage | 12:47 |
| Stskeeps | why should there be? it's a binary optimized for a certain instruction set/processor | 12:47 |
| Stskeeps | which normally means this doesn't work on anything lower | 12:47 |
| odin_ | but ABIs dictate the instructions you can use | 12:48 |
| Stskeeps | not really | 12:48 |
| odin_ | "really" ? | 12:48 |
| thiago_home | the moment that you got the SIGILL, you're lost | 12:48 |
| Stskeeps | [citation needed], still | 12:48 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: on arm there's stuff like thumb interworking and such | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | but a decided ban on 'processor specific' instructions, i highly doubt | 12:49 |
| odin_ | no the spec is written the other way | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | since you side stepped this topic a bit, do you now see why they wouldn't automatically add another architecture, regarding my view of meego as a company needing to make something happen? | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: well, then find proof - i'll go make coffee | 12:50 |
| odin_ | as in the older CPU with fewer instructions was around the time the ABI is created | 12:50 |
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| odin_ | when new CPU comes and new INSNs then ABI is updated or a new one created about how to support them | 12:50 |
| Stskeeps | are we trying to make atom binaries run on non-atom, or are we trying to get non-atom binaries running on atom? .. | 12:51 |
| Stskeeps | because i'm astonished you're surprised that binaries build for a newer processor doesn't run on old ones | 12:51 |
| odin_ | we are trying to make a non-atom not run atom binaries in the first place, where non-atom means lowest supported CPU for the Linux IA32 ABI and atom means running code that directly uses SSSE3 without guarding it | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | ok, find citations that this is required, thank you | 12:53 |
| thiago_home | you can't run unguarded instructions | 12:53 |
| thiago_home | well, you could with kernel help emulating those instructions | 12:53 |
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| odin_ | so in the case of MeeGo, a non-atom CPU installed MeeGo netbook edition, he boots up and init fails to run | 12:53 |
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| Stskeeps | right, at least we're on same page now | 12:54 |
| thiago_home | expected result, yes | 12:54 |
| Stskeeps | guarding comes with a large performance cost and that's why i doubt it's in ABI | 12:54 |
| odin_ | plenty of application correctly guard optimizations | 12:54 |
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| odin_ | huh what performance cost ? | 12:54 |
| Stskeeps | in source, right? | 12:54 |
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| Stskeeps | keep in mind this is the compiler spitting out ssse3 instructions, not assembly in the source :) | 12:55 |
| odin_ | you do CPU detection, you then modify your DSO entrypoints to point functions/symbols at the versions that work for your CPU, this means one DSO can support an unlimited number of optimizations | 12:55 |
| thiago_home | yes, it's possible | 12:55 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: yes, but does gcc do this? :P | 12:55 |
| thiago_home | I don't know if ld.so does it either | 12:56 |
| odin_ | which also brings the point, what general purpose code is spitting out SSSE3, I'd like to understand that, which instructions are we talking about and what is the i386 way of doing the same? | 12:56 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: gcc is spitting it out and any vector like things | 12:56 |
| thiago_home | odin_: gcc does that | 12:56 |
| thiago_home | disassemble one of the binaries and find any SSSE3 instructions | 12:57 |
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| odin_ | "vector like things" somewhat vague, since vector work used in OpenGL is domain specific, i.e. there isn't any C language expression to ask the compiler to do something for general purpose code | 12:58 |
| Stskeeps | i don't know specifics, but gcc generates those things | 12:59 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:59 |
| odin_ | yes I'm not even sure which binaries have SSSE3 instructions in them, do you know any to run, "objdump -d ./a.out" on / | 12:59 |
| Stskeeps | we're drifting though - it will generate the SSSE3 instructions, and why is this a problem? | 13:00 |
| lbt | odin_: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-July/003816.html | 13:00 |
| lbt | not that anyone replied in a meaningful way ... | 13:01 |
| thiago_home | all binaries potentially contain SSSE3 | 13:01 |
| thiago_home | which ones actually do depends on the optimisation flags you used, the compiler version and the source code | 13:01 |
| thiago_home | and a change in any of them can add or remove instructions | 13:02 |
| odin_ | lbt, yes have read that reply, there is no problem with motivation to provide SSSE3 optimized binaries, the issue is "the method" | 13:02 |
| thiago_home | what method? | 13:03 |
| lbt | Intel are using MeeGo.com to make "the Intel MeeGo" not "the community MeeGo" | 13:03 |
| odin_ | thiago_home, and the issue there is that such binaries just should not start/load/run on systems that do not support them (it does not matter how they are supported, i.e. native or emulated by kernel traps) | 13:03 |
| thiago_home | odin_: so you're saying that this should be encoded in the ELF header and the kernel should refuse to load? | 13:04 |
| thiago_home | lbt: Intel contributed the hardware and they want it optimised for their platform | 13:04 |
| thiago_home | someone else can build for other platforms | 13:04 |
| lbt | not a good argument | 13:04 |
| thiago_home | it is a good argument | 13:05 |
| thiago_home | the LF can build for a lower platform | 13:05 |
| thiago_home | Intel won't | 13:05 |
| lbt | that's not sponsorship; that's a vendor specific build platform | 13:05 |
| odin_ | thiago, yes (if supported by the existing ABIs), or a change in dynamic linker path (if support is not compatible) | 13:05 |
| thiago_home | that's not sponsorship, it's their hardware | 13:05 |
| lbt | ok.. then it should be build.meego.intel.com | 13:05 |
| thiago_home | like I said, LF can set up the other builds, with money sponsored | 13:06 |
| lbt | I actually thought MeeGo.com was the LF platform | 13:06 |
| * thiago_home couldn't find any SSSE3 instruction in his SSE4-enabled QtCore, QtGui and QtWebKit | 13:07 | |
| lbt | thiago_home: that's the point ... it's "random" - or at least not humanly determinable if a given application will choke | 13:07 |
| thiago_home | yes, it is | 13:08 |
| odin_ | ^^^ and that also is part of the problem, you don't know which do and which don't and most don't, so is the breaking backward compatibility cost worth this much to intel ? | 13:08 |
| thiago_home | in the ICC build I did find pshufb | 13:08 |
| thiago_home | now palignr | 13:08 |
| lbt | and given the entirety of Qt doesn't use it then I challeng the "performance" it offers | 13:08 |
| odin_ | lbt, here here me too | 13:08 |
| odin_ | is there an ICC OBS platform ? | 13:08 |
| thiago_home | a total of 4 SSSE3 instructions on QtGui | 13:09 |
| odin_ | do intel intend to use ICC to distribute "Intel MeeGo on a device" | 13:09 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: on the other hand 'optimized for atom' sells | 13:09 |
| thiago_home | no, forget ICC | 13:09 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: and that's my point... | 13:09 |
| thiago_home | I'm just looking at it because I do have it | 13:09 |
| lbt | (as per the mail) | 13:09 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: and attracts developers to the platform and set of development hardware, etc.. | 13:09 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:09 |
| odin_ | it can be alignment and instruction order optimized for atom and still be called "optimized for atom" | 13:09 |
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| RST38h | A little offtopic: could somebody tell me how to configure ssh client to avoid dropping connections? | 13:10 |
| odin_ | RST38h, dropping in what way ? you mean when idle over time ? | 13:10 |
| thiago_home | that's -mtune=atom | 13:10 |
| thiago_home | I still don't get what the problem is | 13:10 |
| RST38h | odin: I think so | 13:10 |
| thiago_home | why hasn't anyone built for generic i586 yet? | 13:10 |
| lbt | thiago_home: how? | 13:11 |
| thiago_home | aren't the sources available? | 13:11 |
| RST38h | thiago: Maybe nobody needs it, really? | 13:11 |
| lbt | and isn't that the job of MeeGo.com? | 13:11 |
| RST38h | I mean, there is Ubuntu Linux =) | 13:11 |
| odin_ | RST38h, -2 -o TCPKeepAlive=yes -o ServerAliveInterval=900 | 13:11 |
| RST38h | odin: ACK. | 13:11 |
| odin_ | RST38h, man ssh_config and sshd_config (for "Alive") | 13:12 |
| thiago_home | lbt: maybe it is. Have you contacted the LF people about this? | 13:12 |
| lbt | RST38h: and that's the point "oh, I need that HW to run it. Ubuntu runs on my laptop. Bye MeeGo" | 13:12 |
| lbt | thiago_home: not directly | 13:12 |
| thiago_home | lbt: has anyone? | 13:12 |
| lbt | although dl9pf is LF iirc | 13:12 |
| RST38h | lbt: Believe me, when reaching that point, I do not even consider the hardware I need | 13:13 |
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| lbt | thiago_home: should we need to thiago_home? | 13:13 |
| Stskeeps | isn't meego infrastructure for roadmapped activities? :P | 13:13 |
| thiago_home | lbt: yeah | 13:13 |
| RST38h | odin; That is the weird part: ssh_config does not appear to have these options | 13:13 |
| thiago_home | don't assume people thought of those issues | 13:13 |
| thiago_home | bring it up | 13:13 |
| thiago_home | make the case as to why this would be necessary, and work together with them to bring up the solution | 13:14 |
| thiago_home | an OBS to build for generic i586 | 13:14 |
| lbt | I started writing 15 mins ago :) | 13:14 |
| odin_ | RST38h, what distro ? they have not always been there but have been over the past 3 years of OpenSSH releases | 13:14 |
| thiago_home | LF might have to search for a sponsor for the machines and storage | 13:14 |
| lbt | thiago_home: although obviously the community OBS is a potential place for this | 13:14 |
| lbt | and it's on my todo list | 13:14 |
| thiago_home | and isn't that something that LF can/will host? | 13:15 |
| lbt | we've been promised some HW for mid-june | 13:15 |
| odin_ | thiago_home no generic i586 as there is no comminity OBS and distribution point, but the recent meego-dev mailing list topics have indicated that such things might not be supported by Intel/Nokia community platform anyway | 13:15 |
| * lbt checks his watch | 13:15 | |
| thiago_home | odin_: what do you mean? | 13:15 |
| RST38h | odin: Ubuntu | 13:15 |
| lbt | odin_: there is a community OBS | 13:15 |
| RST38h | Anyway, added them, let me reconnect... | 13:15 |
| lbt | RST38h: stop trolling; you got ssh support... be nice | 13:16 |
| odin_ | thiago_home, which raises the question, should the community setup a desperate disto (maybe not called MeeGo) and raise its own funds (like debian/CentOS) for its own goals on that | 13:16 |
| RST38h | lbt: But, the thing is, I am not trolling | 13:16 |
| lbt | odin_: I'd rather MeeGo.com became the community distro | 13:16 |
| RST38h | lbt: I am pointing out a legitimate reason why Meego is not very popular on laptops (netbooks included) | 13:16 |
| thiago_home | odin_: you lost me at the previous line | 13:17 |
| odin_ | thiago_home, the point has been of the "cost" of the shared infrastructure and Intel employees having said that Intel should not be burdened with the cost of supporting other arch/platforms/builds | 13:17 |
| thiago_home | odin_: what do you mean? | 13:17 |
| RST38h | lbt: There is well established competition that has everything set up and working | 13:17 |
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| lbt | RST38h: once is enough... I know it. I *work* for Nokia and AFAIK can't run MeeGo. I've actually never seen it running :) | 13:17 |
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| RST38h | lbt: Oh, I see it running daily on platforms that have not see silicon yet, but still ... | 13:18 |
| odin_ | thiago_home, worst case scenario I paint is that these resources can not be used for i386/i686 builds not for n8x0/n900 builds | 13:18 |
| odin_ | lbt, yes I'd rather MeeGo was a community distro, but I am just trying to understand the commercial aspects of the "shared resources" and who gets to dictate what is and is not on the agenda, since I think that my idea of "community" is not the same as "Intel's idea of community" | 13:19 |
| lbt | the model is that Nokia (as a vendor) has an internal OBS to optimise for a commercial product | 13:19 |
| RST38h | it never is... | 13:20 |
| lbt | Why does Intel get to optimise on the MeeGo.com ? | 13:20 |
| odin_ | lbt, so Intel should have the same, a private OBS for their own R&D and optimizations and stuff | 13:20 |
| RST38h | odin: The idea is that there is a distro and a bunch of manufacturers who take it and customize it to their needs | 13:20 |
| thiago_home | lbt: and why can't the externals get the results of Nokia's build? | 13:20 |
| RST38h | odin: The distro is largely x86-oriented | 13:20 |
| odin_ | lbt, I do not have an issue with intel optimizing on MeeGo.com, I have an issue with them blocking the potential for an i386/i686 (non -SSSE3) distro from also being put on there | 13:20 |
| RST38h | odin: Or, Atom-oriented to be exact. Although this may change in the future to embrace other x86 platforms | 13:21 |
| lbt | thiago_home: they can | 13:21 |
| lbt | they buy Nokia product and get access | 13:21 |
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| thiago_home | so I can't put it on my other device? | 13:21 |
| lbt | license permitting | 13:22 |
| RST38h | odin: As far as your problem goes, I have heard that you only need to recompile the kernel without SSSE3 quirks | 13:22 |
| lbt | MeeGo is designed to allow commercialisation | 13:22 |
| lbt | we know that | 13:22 |
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| lbt | but MeeGo.com is supposed to be open and to minimise barrier to entry | 13:22 |
| RST38h | lbt: But it does not prevent anyone from making their own fully totally community distro based on Meego | 13:22 |
| thiago_home | from my point of view, the Atom-optimised build is Intel's OBS that is just in the public | 13:22 |
| lbt | RST38h: correct | 13:22 |
| thiago_home | should there be a non-Atom optimised build? Maybe, who would use it? | 13:23 |
| odin_ | RST38h, I don't think the kernel is incompatible, I hear its a userspace problem, this is because more than a handful of people have reported putting it on their non-SSSE3 notebook and it appears to work, but something keeps crashing | 13:23 |
| lbt | thiago_home: anyone with a non-Atom device | 13:23 |
| lbt | eg my AMD desktop | 13:23 |
| odin_ | RST38h, something, as in just this one thing, and they want support on why | 13:23 |
| thiago_home | why are you running MeeGo on that? | 13:23 |
| thiago_home | is it a netbook? | 13:23 |
| lbt | thiago_home: I can't run MeeGo on it | 13:23 |
| lbt | that's the point | 13:23 |
| odin_ | what is a netbook, is that a marketing term? be more scientific in the description | 13:23 |
| lbt | or, to be fair, I don't think I can | 13:24 |
| thiago_home | why are you trying to? Is it a netbook? | 13:24 |
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| RST38h | odin: I have heard from some OTC people here (correct me if I am wrong) that SSSE3 gives you +20% performance on certain tasks | 13:24 |
| thiago_home | I completely agree that the SDK must run on your workstation | 13:24 |
| lbt | thiago_home: As Arjan says ... we should be OK running MeeGo as our desktop for daily life | 13:24 |
| lbt | eat dogfood | 13:24 |
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| RST38h | odin: And because they target Atom based devices anyway, they can say that SSSE3 will be there | 13:24 |
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| thiago_home | we are making a product for which we are not the target audience | 13:25 |
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| lbt | thiago_home: again, AFAIK, the SDK won't run on the desktop... | 13:25 |
| thiago_home | yes, I should be able to run MeeGo on my netbook | 13:25 |
| lbt | some will but the imager fails | 13:25 |
| thiago_home | but I don't want to run it on my workstation | 13:25 |
| RST38h | thiago: As long as THERE IS a target audience for it, and you are being paid, I see no problem | 13:25 |
| lbt | thiago_home: want != should be able to | 13:25 |
| thiago_home | lbt: it should. The SDK should run everywhere. | 13:25 |
| odin_ | RST38h, yes, sure no one is claiming performance of "certain tasks" is not boosted by it, but I don't think those tasks include "general purpose compiler code generation" I think they only cover domain specific uses, OpenGL, encryption, codecs, etc... | 13:25 |
| lbt | thiago_home: I know it should | 13:25 |
| RST38h | thiago: Actually, even #1 is optional :) | 13:25 |
| lbt | I ran workshops in Nokia and devs with old laptops couldn't make images for netbooks | 13:25 |
| thiago_home | lbt: you should be able to run the image on a netbook. | 13:26 |
| RST38h | odin: Sorry, but what do you want to use Meego for, anyway? | 13:26 |
| lbt | so our build/image/test cycle failed | 13:26 |
| lbt | thiago_home: couldn't *make* image ... SDK failed | 13:26 |
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| thiago_home | how about convincing Nokia to use that existing OBS infrastructure then? | 13:27 |
| lbt | mmm ? | 13:27 |
| lbt | they do | 13:27 |
| odin_ | RST38h, I want to use MeeGo on my portable and embeded devices in the future, I am looking for a platform that is similar to desktop/server linux but which allows me to roll forward any "capital" I create/invest forward into the next device, since the portable device is a somewhat disposable market with new devices every few years | 13:27 |
| thiago_home | for building generic i586 | 13:27 |
| lbt | ah... | 13:27 |
| thiago_home | anyway, I'm not seeing anyone block a generic build | 13:27 |
| thiago_home | but I'm not seeing anyone step up to do it either | 13:27 |
| lbt | I guess the point is that MeeGo should be doing it | 13:28 |
| RST38h | odin: Ok. Get an Ubuntu desktop. Get Qt. Develop apps with it. | 13:28 |
| lbt | not Intel | 13:28 |
| lbt | MeeGo | 13:28 |
| thiago_home | I agree | 13:28 |
| lbt | :) | 13:28 |
| thiago_home | so let's talk to LF | 13:28 |
| RST38h | odin: Absolutely no reason to do it on Meego directly, at least not right now. | 13:28 |
| lbt | thiago_home: I'm putting an email together | 13:29 |
| RST38h | odin: And yes, I also believe that the Meego Developer Edition images should run on any x86, not just on SSSE3-equipped ones. | 13:29 |
| RST38h | But the key is, you do not need Meego to do development. | 13:29 |
| odin_ | RST38h, but its not an "app" I am developing, its non-braindead operating system components, i.e. stuff my vendor did badly | 13:30 |
| RST38h | odin: Ok. So, let me clarify: you are developing drivers for your vendor who wants you to develop them in Meego but has not supplied you with a proper hardware? | 13:31 |
| odin_ | RST38h, so Ubuntu support for N900 is good and its usable as a phone still ? | 13:31 |
| RST38h | odin: No. But you are not talking about the N900, right? You are talking about your x86 laptop? | 13:31 |
| RST38h | Otherwise, the SSSE3 issue would not come up at all, no? | 13:32 |
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| odin_ | RST38h, nope I am not working for any other vested interest but myself, I am not a subcontractor, just a user tied of previous mobile device eco-systems and have been waiting for Linux on mobile to arrive since my original Nokia communicator in 1999 | 13:32 |
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| odin_ | RST38h, no I have no current use for MeeGo on Intel platform | 13:33 |
| RST38h | odin: Then why are you complaining about the SSSE3 reliance? | 13:33 |
| odin_ | because in future I know I will have a device when the chip/device arrives, because providing free support in this IRC channel over the same issue is not good for MeeGo, because the method by which SSSE3 is being supported will definitely affect me in the future, because there are better ways to support SSSE3 | 13:35 |
| odin_ | any other questions you seem to have a lot about my personal view (rather than about the topic) | 13:35 |
| thiago_home | the best way to use SSSE3 is to have a build dedicated for it | 13:36 |
| RST38h | Mmmm | 13:36 |
| RST38h | odin: Are you sure you are going to get a device without SSSE3 on which you would like to run Meego? | 13:36 |
| thiago_home | runtime dispatch is a performance overhead | 13:36 |
| RST38h | thiago; I think the point is that every upcoming device supposed to run Meego will have SSSE3 anyway | 13:36 |
| RST38h | thiago: And the backlash we see is from a bunch of people who would like to run Meego on their current, previous generation devices | 13:37 |
| odin_ | RST38h, I don't view you question a relevant to the topic, on the basis that if the matter was tackled better there would be no issue either way | 13:37 |
| thiago_home | I don't see the distinction | 13:37 |
| thiago_home | yes, all new devices are newer than old devices | 13:37 |
| thiago_home | :-) | 13:37 |
| RST38h | thiago: Distinction is that the older devices are not the target platforms for running Meego | 13:37 |
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| RST38h | Ok, DCC file selection works, at least | 13:38 |
| odin_ | RST38h, ahem, " the older devices are not _INTEL's_ target platforms for running Meego" - there fixed for you | 13:38 |
| RST38h | odin: Agreed | 13:38 |
| RST38h | odin: But given that Meego is a rebranded Moblin, I do not see a problem there | 13:38 |
| odin_ | no Meego is rebranded Maemo !!! | 13:39 |
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| RST38h | odin: Yes, as a Linux distributive, it has a target audience | 13:39 |
| RST38h | odin: Not really, sorry. | 13:39 |
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| odin_ | I'd be happy if MeeGo 1.1 was just Maemo5 packaged and rebuilt, new SDK, new packaging, a straight conversion, maybe one of the matters Nokia overlooks as to why their community is their tear up and change direction approach to the OS part | 13:42 |
| thiago_home | and replacing some parts too with new technology | 13:42 |
| odin_ | since there is no invested capital to rollover into the next product since based on part performance that capital will not be relevant | 13:42 |
| thiago_home | isn't this a matter of point of view? | 13:43 |
| thiago_home | what does it matter if you start with A or B if the result is the same? | 13:43 |
| odin_ | well aren't there exactly 2 Symbian platforms to develop for ? | 13:43 |
| odin_ | within each of these there are "feature sets" and backwardly compatible and additive stuff | 13:44 |
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| thiago_home | exactly 2? | 13:44 |
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| thiago_home | try 20 | 13:45 |
| thiago_home | or 60 | 13:45 |
| odin_ | the Linux offering has not been additive so far, so developers don't accumulate capital they accumulate headaches | 13:45 |
| RST38h | thiago: Well, to be exact, the result will not be the same | 13:45 |
| odin_ | S60 and S^3 | 13:45 |
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| RST38h | thiago: But I do not see how starting with Moblin is worse than starting with Maemo, frankly | 13:46 |
| thiago_home | S60 subdivides into a hundred different and incompatible versions | 13:46 |
| RST38h | Both have enough wrinkles | 13:46 |
| RST38h | Mmm...no (on S60) | 13:46 |
| RST38h | There is Symbian. Then, there are UI frameworks on top of Symbian. | 13:46 |
| RST38h | One of them is Avkon, also known as S60 to the customers. | 13:47 |
| RST38h | Another was Uikon, known to you as UIQ | 13:47 |
| thiago_home | but there are still enough differences in the platform, like operator-specific API | 13:47 |
| RST38h | The "bare" Symbian also comes with its own UI framework, called Eikon and used to patch all the unimplemented holes in S60/UIQ | 13:47 |
| RST38h | thiago: yes, that too, but few people use operator specific crap | 13:48 |
| RST38h | Now, though, Symbian itself (not the UI) went through a few drastic changes | 13:48 |
| RST38h | For example, before Symbian9 (aka S60e3 in Nokia terms), you could not have executables, only DLLs that the OS ran in a specific manner | 13:48 |
| RST38h | So, no static data, and other "niceties" | 13:49 |
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| RST38h | And Nokia also had two other UI frameworks (S80 and S90) running on top of Symbian | 13:49 |
| odin_ | are those S^1 and ^2 and ^3 ? | 13:50 |
| RST38h | And S60 itself gets constantly extended, hence S60e1 (Nokia 7650/3650), S60e2, S60e3 (E50/E70/E61), S60e5 (touch version) | 13:50 |
| RST38h | The powered version is a rebrand they have done after spinning Symbian into a separate non-profit entity and open sourcing it | 13:50 |
| RST38h | You can consider them a continuation of the S60eX labeling | 13:51 |
| thiago_home | odin_: S^1 = S60 5.0 | 13:51 |
| thiago_home | S^2 = 5.1, rebranded | 13:51 |
| odin_ | I have written for Symbian before (over 4 years ago now, something I would never go and do again), been waiting for a viable Linux based phone for 10 years now and the N900 was finally a product that ticked all the boxes, ah, Nokia finally gets it! | 13:51 |
| RST38h | Notice that UIQ (Uikon) has not survived the reorganization and died a quiet, unmourned death | 13:51 |
| RST38h | Which is kinda sad, given that Uikon is way better structured than Avkon | 13:52 |
| thiago_home | S^3 is also the last edition with Avkon | 13:52 |
| RST38h | Just never debugged to a fully usable state | 13:52 |
| RST38h | thiago: So, they just implemnented Avkon in Qt :) | 13:53 |
| RST38h | thiago: ith the dreaded MVC model and all | 13:53 |
| RST38h | s/ith/with | 13:53 |
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| thiago_home | the new lib is nowhere that bad | 13:53 |
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| RST38h | thiago: But do you still need to write 5 classes just to show Hello World? | 13:54 |
| RST38h | thiago: or can you just start with main() nowadays, like in all normal OSes? | 13:54 |
| thiago_home | like normal a OS | 13:55 |
| thiago_home | go take a look at the examples, you'll find out more | 13:55 |
| RST38h | thiago: sounds refershing | 13:57 |
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| meegodotby | Meego should die quickly as well as predecessors? | 13:59 |
| RST38h | what predecessors? | 13:59 |
| meegodotby | mmm | 13:59 |
| RST38h | ok, looks like you will have to work on your opening lines a bit more :) | 14:00 |
| meegodotby | Symbian will leave in the past, probably | 14:02 |
| thiago_home | will leave what? | 14:02 |
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| _wolf_ | I think he means live. But I smell troll :P | 14:03 |
| lbt | I quite like the idea of "will leave" "in the past" | 14:04 |
| * lbt tries it for size : "meegodotby will leave in the past" | 14:04 | |
| RST38h | He probably means "live" | 14:05 |
| _wolf_ | I | 14:06 |
| _wolf_ | I'd say everything leaves the past (behind) | 14:06 |
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| RST38h | But yes, learning the language helps one's trolling skills tremendously | 14:06 |
| meegodotby | yes, i badly know language, i study English, but i understand you, sorry | 14:13 |
| lbt | meegodotby: :) OK .... we thought you meant something else. | 14:14 |
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| RST38h | BTW, has anyone already complained about N900 causing capral tunnel syndrome on tmo? :) | 14:18 |
| odin_ | don't you have a blue tooth keyboard neural implant ? | 14:22 |
| RST38h | alas they are not supported in Maemo5, bug filed =) | 14:23 |
| odin_ | maybe lbt can help in #opensuse-buildservice :) | 14:24 |
| odin_ | I do have one of these bluetooth laser keyboard, nice and gimmicky | 14:25 |
| lbt | odin_: ? | 14:26 |
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| lbt | mmmm http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1721739/meego-flies-benchmark-test | 15:41 |
| Stskeeps | ARM vs atom..? | 15:41 |
| Stskeeps | when i read the comparatives, i stopped reading :P | 15:42 |
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| RST38h | A moment, I think I have seen a clean test | 15:47 |
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| thiago_home | let's see... | 15:47 |
| thiago_home | one benchmark run on an A4, one benchmark run on an OMAP3 or Snapdragon | 15:48 |
| thiago_home | and one benchmark run on a dual-core Atom 1.5 GHz | 15:48 |
| thiago_home | guess which one ran faster | 15:48 |
| RST38h | Whiever has got faster memory bus | 15:48 |
| RST38h | CPU does not even figure in the results ;) | 15:48 |
| RST38h | http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/tested-chrome-vs-ie8-vs-firefox-3-1-vs-safari-4-582159 | 15:49 |
| simulacrum | No mirrors available for Meego? the download is REALLY SLOW! | 15:49 |
| RST38h | That was in March 2009 though | 15:49 |
| simulacrum | Chrome is faster, different, and better Javascript engines | 15:50 |
| RST38h | http://www.xg-group.com/index.php/2010/06/23/firefox-counters-googles-browser-speed-test/ | 15:51 |
| RST38h | this is the latest | 15:51 |
| RST38h | Although I fail to understand people's obsession with interpreted (or JITted) languages | 15:52 |
| RST38h | They heroically go against the computational complexity laws and...well...fail every time :) | 15:53 |
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| simulacrum | Well, it seems like for some people *performance* is not the most important factor | 15:57 |
| RST38h | Then why have benchmarks? :) | 16:00 |
| RST38h | And why do people always complain about slow, unresponsive JavaScript or Java apps? :) | 16:00 |
| simulacrum | Because they are *fed up* with them! | 16:01 |
| simulacrum | In general users do that | 16:01 |
| RST38h | Nobody explained to them that performance has not been the most important factor? =) | 16:01 |
| simulacrum | Programmers control users. | 16:01 |
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| dl9pf | lbt: you need testers ? | 16:04 |
| simulacrum | For 3 days I'm trying to download the Meego Netbook 1.0 without success, everytime I get bad checksum or I just cancel the download being so *SLOW*, Meego SDK on the other hand works fine, grr | 16:06 |
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| simulacrum | damn it 1 hr and 30 minutes to download, this is insane | 16:09 |
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| lbt | dl9pf: yep :) | 16:14 |
| dl9pf | i can give it a whirl | 16:15 |
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| lbt | dl9pf: on the community OBS I was thinking to have :current | 16:29 |
| lbt | this would be replaced each week | 16:29 |
| dl9pf | yes, from the snapshot - right | 16:29 |
| lbt | we'd keep 2 or 3 dated versions for regression tests | 16:30 |
| lbt | X-Fade: ping... if you're about | 16:30 |
| dl9pf | for cross@armv7, we need the -accel packages there and the -x86-arm packages all in the armv7/:full | 16:31 |
| lbt | I'm not sure what X-Fade's setup in terms of syncing in | 16:31 |
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| lbt | right... looks wrongly setup... :full -> /backend_storage/obs/meego1.0/i586_full/armel_full | 16:34 |
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| dl9pf | yes, all of these - looks complete | 16:44 |
| dl9pf | including cross-*-accel*armv7l and *-x86*.armv7l | 16:44 |
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| dl9pf | do you want to sync now ? | 16:48 |
| lbt | yep... looking for the rpms | 16:48 |
| lbt | http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.80/ | 16:48 |
| dl9pf | http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.80/1.0.80.9.20100706.1/ thats gcc4.4.2 | 16:49 |
| lbt | yes | 16:49 |
| dl9pf | ok - lets continue when synced. | 16:51 |
| lbt | yep.... http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenSuse_Build_Service/MeeGo_Setup | 16:51 |
| lbt | working on that | 16:51 |
| ScottishDuck | what size is a full meego system now | 16:52 |
| dl9pf | define full | 16:54 |
| dl9pf | meego-netbook-chromium-ia32-1.0-20100524.1.img 25-May-2010 13:46 776M | 16:55 |
| dl9pf | meego-n900-open-armv7l-1.0.0.20100525.1-sda.raw.bz2 26-May-2010 02:15 137M | 16:56 |
| brumla1 | ScottishDuck: default netbook installation takes ~1,9 GB | 16:57 |
| dl9pf | so that really depends on what "full" is - ok, comparing core with a full-blown netbook image is unfair. | 16:57 |
| ScottishDuck | dl9pf: I don't see that n900 image as accurate | 16:58 |
| ScottishDuck | oh, it's 1.0 | 16:58 |
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| kenya888 | Hi, is lbt or X-Fade online? | 17:27 |
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| lbt | yes | 17:34 |
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| lbt | ahma: ping | 18:02 |
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| rjb | hi where can i download meego 1.0.1 iso? | 18:41 |
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| rjb | i tried http://meego.com/downloads/releases/updates/meego-v1.0.1-netbook-update there is no download link | 18:44 |
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| rjb | anybody knows | 18:47 |
| kimitake_ | rjb: click MeeGo v1.0 for Netbooks at the page | 18:47 |
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| rjb | kimitake_ that link is for Meego v1.0 i want Meego v1.0.1 update | 18:50 |
| kimitake_ | rjb: oh, but you can update on the system, actually I have updated my system | 18:51 |
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| rjb | i wanted to try it live first | 18:52 |
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| rjb | please can you update http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.0/netbook/images/meego-netbook-chromium-ia32/ | 18:55 |
| rjb | please add Meego v1.0.1 | 18:55 |
| kimitake_ | rjb, you can create a liveUSB using Fedora tool, it can be updated so then you can upgrade to v1.0.1.. | 18:58 |
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| rjb | kimitake_ thank you | 19:03 |
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| _wolf_ | oXwro77! | 21:39 |
| _wolf_ | fsck! | 21:39 |
| dm8tbr | time for a new password :) | 21:43 |
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| * thiago_home discovers LinuxCon Brazil | 23:01 | |
| CosmoHill | :o | 23:03 |
| thiago_home | less than two months away from it | 23:04 |
| CosmoHill | and how many thousands of miles? | 23:05 |
| thiago_home | nothing | 23:05 |
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| thiago_home | I'll be very close to it | 23:05 |
| *** naba_ has quit IRC | 23:05 | |
| thiago_home | but will miss it by a few days | 23:05 |
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| thiago_home | I'm going to Brazil this Friday now | 23:07 |
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| lbt | is meego.com downloads slow? ~50Kb | 23:24 |
| thiago_home | I heard it was slow, yeah | 23:25 |
| lbt | I started trying to download the repo this afternoon from an ISP connected server... | 23:25 |
| lbt | for the community OBS... | 23:25 |
| lbt | its up to "evolution" | 23:26 |
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| * lbt wonders if he'll be able to keep up with the weekly builds at this rate ;) | 23:26 | |
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