| lcuk | ok, and that rpmbuild is the central core function that all of OBS is built around? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| InformatiQ | lbt: has to be in a meego chroot | 00:00 |
| lbt | lcuk: kinda | 00:00 |
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| lcuk | does it have protection against being run outside a chroot | 00:00 |
| lbt | obs is built around "a command" | 00:00 |
| CosmoHill | crap, it"s eletrion day tomorrow | 00:00 |
| lcuk | so OBS can be used to build .debs? | 00:00 |
| lbt | which can be rpmbuild or dpkg-buildpkg | 00:00 |
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| lbt | around the outside of that command it creates a chroot | 00:01 |
| lbt | and it looks at your build-deps to decide what to put in the chroot | 00:01 |
| lbt | all of which is done using the "build" command | 00:01 |
| lbt | now the OBS *service* runs the build command for you on a big compile farm | 00:02 |
| lbt | and (thiago_home are you listening) the OBS command "osc build" runs the self-same build command on your home machine | 00:02 |
| lbt | so the build-service and your home machine run the same code.... guaranteed | 00:02 |
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| lbt | and that chroot even contains the toolchain | 00:03 |
| lbt | yes? | 00:03 |
| lcuk | sounds reasonable | 00:03 |
| lcuk | but how does it know to build that package for 5 different arches | 00:04 |
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| lbt | for arch in arch1 arch2.... ; do osc build <arch>; done | 00:04 |
| lcuk | win/lin32/lin64/mac/armel etc | 00:04 |
| lcuk | ok | 00:04 |
| lbt | ah, careful | 00:04 |
| lcuk | so machines in the cluster wont be specifialised for arch | 00:04 |
| lbt | they're OSes, not arches | 00:04 |
| lcuk | theres a difference? | 00:04 |
| lbt | well, a mix actually | 00:05 |
| lbt | yes. | 00:05 |
| lcuk | targets | 00:05 |
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| lbt | you can have debian lenny on 64/32/arm5/arm7/ppc/sparc.... | 00:05 |
| lcuk | yes but the same binary wont work in each | 00:05 |
| lbt | or ubuntu/fedora/win32 on each of the same arches | 00:06 |
| lcuk | so targets is a better name but can encompas multiple flavours of silicon | 00:06 |
| lbt | yes | 00:06 |
| lbt | OBS has target+arch | 00:06 |
| lbt | so debian_lenny/i586 | 00:06 |
| lbt | or meego_1.0/armv5el | 00:07 |
| lcuk | ok, so a general app which was being written to run anywhere - nothing special, "make all" should build generically | 00:07 |
| lbt | no | 00:07 |
| lcuk | hello world in native c with simple defines for instance | 00:07 |
| lbt | on windows make install goes to c:\some crappy\ path | 00:07 |
| lcuk | will every app have to explicitely specify its targets+archs? | 00:08 |
| lcuk | ahh ok understood | 00:08 |
| lbt | autotools solves that | 00:08 |
| lbt | for sane systems | 00:08 |
| lcuk | but we havent got autotools | 00:08 |
| lcuk | or so i heard | 00:08 |
| lbt | ie all versions of linux that matter | 00:08 |
| lbt | Meego has | 00:08 |
| lbt | meego is a strong autotools distro | 00:08 |
| lcuk | wasnt timeless having trouble getting it working? | 00:08 |
| lbt | AFAIUI | 00:08 |
| lbt | heh... | 00:08 |
| slaine | I tried to follow the moblin guide on how to use 'build' to make native packages, but it never really worked out | 00:09 |
| slaine | that was mostly due to packaging issues | 00:09 |
| lbt | slaine: wait until we have an OBS... the SDK will fade into obscurity | 00:09 |
| slaine | lbt, well, more thinking about me, on my local setup | 00:09 |
| lcuk | there will always be a need for bedroom coders to build natively without running through obs? | 00:09 |
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| lbt | lcuk: no | 00:10 |
| * slaine is coding in his bedroom right now | 00:10 | |
| lbt | sure, but that's like saying there's always a need to be able to code in asm | 00:10 |
| * lcuk turns off slaine's light - its way past your bedtime and its a schoolnight | 00:10 | |
| * thiago_home goes to bed | 00:10 | |
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| InformatiQ | lcuk: i agree to an extent | 00:11 |
| lcuk | lbt - theres not a lot of need to code in it, but you can be damn sure it needs to be compilable | 00:11 |
| InformatiQ | but then the rpm tools are there | 00:11 |
| lbt | well, for some situations... but 99.999999% of the time... not really. it's just machismo | 00:11 |
| slaine | lcuk, kids are in bed, it's the only time I'll get today to do something productive (was in meetings all day, no coding :( ) | 00:11 |
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| InformatiQ | get a meego image use rpmbuild | 00:11 |
| InformatiQ | run it in kvm | 00:11 |
| InformatiQ | build inside | 00:11 |
| lcuk | kvm? | 00:12 |
| slaine | InformatiQ: that unfortunately doesn't work | 00:12 |
| InformatiQ | slaine: why not? | 00:12 |
| slaine | I tried exactly that for rebuilding the moblin source rpms | 00:12 |
| lcuk | arent virtual machines and systems within systems slower in general? | 00:12 |
| slaine | InformatiQ: Poor packaging | 00:12 |
| InformatiQ | slaine: that was which ver of moblin? | 00:12 |
| lbt | lcuk: do you overclock to get the extra 4%? | 00:12 |
| slaine | 2.0 and 2.1 | 00:13 |
| slaine | lbt: he runs gentoo also :) | 00:13 |
| InformatiQ | slaine: do u remember what sort of issues? | 00:13 |
| lcuk | lbt was always hard work cross compiling maemo apps within scratchbox within vmware | 00:13 |
| lcuk | on windows | 00:13 |
| slaine | it's all in the mail archive | 00:13 |
| lbt | lcuk: I was going to say "then you won't notice the virtual machine slowdown" | 00:13 |
| lcuk | that was what led me towards native building and speedups | 00:13 |
| lbt | but for that... | 00:13 |
| InformatiQ | well, i'll give it a try defenitely this week | 00:14 |
| lbt | but even so... you lose more time than you save | 00:14 |
| slaine | I was promised it would be sorted for moblin 2.2 | 00:14 |
| lcuk | lbt, sure within vmware native compiling ubuntu apps within the VM were reasonable | 00:14 |
| InformatiQ | but if it can be built in obs (which would create a chroot of meego rpms) then it should work in kvm image | 00:14 |
| lcuk | and i didnt for my small light apps | 00:14 |
| lcuk | but thats historical | 00:14 |
| InformatiQ | well meego is even better than 2.2 | 00:14 |
| InformatiQ | :) | 00:14 |
| InformatiQ | it has the best of both worlds | 00:15 |
| slaine | InformatiQ: that was the theory. I setup the build as per the instructions on the site and it still failed on those packages | 00:15 |
| slaine | I was told the packaging had been fixed for 2.2, but, as you said, 2.2 got delaye/reworked into meego 1.0 | 00:15 |
| InformatiQ | i would expect this issue to have been fixed | 00:16 |
| slaine | the reason I was rebuilding everything was to have a generic x86 version of moblin that would run on non-ssse3 x86 cpu's | 00:16 |
| lcuk | AND IT WOULD ALSO RUN ON ONES WITH SSSE3 TOO | 00:17 |
| lcuk | -caps | 00:17 |
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| lcuk | just a bit less optimal | 00:17 |
| lbt | lcuk: PLEASE USE CAPS WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE SSSE3 CLUSTERFCKUP | 00:17 |
| lcuk | OK | 00:18 |
| lbt | that's just intel being bloodyminded if you ask me :) | 00:18 |
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| lcuk | indeed - especially considering excuse being graphics speedups - the lower spec machines are normally lower resolution thereby negating the boost | 00:19 |
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| slaine | I've been tempted to ask for some metrics that proved ssse3 improved real world performance on typical netbook hardware. | 00:23 |
| thiago_home | well, start by not using the 8087 FP instructions | 00:24 |
| thiago_home | that's a complete ABI change though | 00:24 |
| slaine | With all the repackaged versions of Moblin UI for fedora spins, ubuntu, opensuse, mandrake etc. you can run the Moblin UX on all sorts of hardware | 00:25 |
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| slaine | and it's usable | 00:25 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, as lbt said, asm isnt routinely used now and people have obviously rebuilt the stack to systems without it | 00:26 |
| lcuk | as slaine says | 00:26 |
| * slaine manages about 17000 machines that are either Via 1Ghz CLE266 boxes or Intel ULV Celeron with 855GM) | 00:26 | |
| thiago_home | so if we switch PR1.2 to -mfloat-abi=hard, no one will care? | 00:26 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, inverse: i would jump at the chance to run through all of maemo through the n8x0 spec builders | 00:28 |
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| thiago_home | so have separate builds? | 00:28 |
| thiago_home | or run OMAP2-optimised software on the N900? | 00:28 |
| lcuk | i do | 00:28 |
| thiago_home | sorry, let me rephrase | 00:29 |
| thiago_home | which one are you proposing? | 00:29 |
| lcuk | its reasonably recently i upgraded my scratchbox to fremantle | 00:29 |
| lcuk | i used diablo for all my compiling | 00:29 |
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| lcuk | never noticed a difference | 00:29 |
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| lcuk | apps work the same in general | 00:29 |
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| thiago_home | I don't know of any differences between OMAP2 and 3, though | 00:30 |
| thiago_home | we're not using hard FP ABI anyway | 00:30 |
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| lcuk | i fail to understand why there is so much emphasis on atom specifics when intels primary concern for the last 30 years has been backwards compatability with the x86 chip | 00:31 |
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| lbt | $$ | 00:31 |
| lcuk | yeah but all that silicon and all those developers | 00:32 |
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| lcuk | sure, people will continue to buy new machines | 00:32 |
| CosmoHill | grr, damn mouth | 00:32 |
| CosmoHill | mouce* | 00:32 |
| thiago_home | the Atom is a different architecture | 00:32 |
| thiago_home | yes, x86, but different from the rest | 00:32 |
| CosmoHill | it's special! | 00:33 |
| slaine | iirc, Phoronix ran some tests against Moblin 2.1 Vs Ubuntu and ubuntu came out on tope for most things | 00:33 |
| slaine | so the sse3 compile flag wasn't doing that much | 00:34 |
| CosmoHill | slaine: did you see this weeks Windows 7 vs Ubuntu 10.04 tests? | 00:34 |
| slaine | yeah, only thing that surprised me was that ubuntu performed as well as it did against windows | 00:35 |
| CosmoHill | really? | 00:35 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, wouldnt you like to run meego on your desktop instead of other things | 00:35 |
| slaine | they where game tests, and windows does games well | 00:35 |
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| thiago_home | lcuk: actually, no | 00:35 |
| thiago_home | I'm not the target audience of meego | 00:36 |
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| slaine | I'm interested in the other tests which show system performance better, filesystem, process management etc. | 00:36 |
| thiago_home | anyway, SSSE3 isn't going to get used by the compiler in most applications | 00:36 |
| thiago_home | the one thing that matters is SSE2 for floating point | 00:37 |
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| lcuk | slaine, so that includes everything from pentium4 upwards? | 00:37 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, sorry | 00:37 |
| lbt | agreed. having ssse3 is just enought to make sure meego won't run (or build) on non-intel hardware | 00:38 |
| CosmoHill | P4 northwood? | 00:38 |
| slaine | yes | 00:38 |
| CosmoHill | why don't we want meego on AMD? | 00:38 |
| trem | nite all, sweet dreams | 00:38 |
| slaine | we doe | 00:38 |
| CosmoHill | cyas trem | 00:38 |
| slaine | do | 00:38 |
| slaine | Intel don't | 00:38 |
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| w00t_ | so, no handset ux for 1.0 | 00:39 |
| w00t_ | am I the only one feeling a bit disappointed by that? | 00:39 |
| lbt | actually the PITA isn't running MeeGo on AMD | 00:39 |
| lbt | it's that you can't develop for an Intel Atom device on an AMD desktop | 00:39 |
| w00t_ | "wait for day one", "wait for 1.0 in may", "wait for it coming Real Soon(tm)" is starting to show a bit of a pattern | 00:39 |
| CosmoHill | hehe bbc made a bobo | 00:39 |
| CosmoHill | you could hear the editor doing the count down in the background to the start and end of the news | 00:40 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: x86-to-x86 cross compiler | 00:40 |
| javispedro | uh? | 00:40 |
| thiago_home | what I said | 00:40 |
| javispedro | has x86 started diverging so much that different subarches now have their own compiler versions? | 00:40 |
| CosmoHill | ah this is true, intel and AMD are different | 00:40 |
| thiago_home | besides, the toolchain doesn't need to be compiled with SSSE3 | 00:40 |
| lbt | thiago_home: you need more... the chroot needed to run mic2 needs to be non-ssse3 | 00:41 |
| CosmoHill | but only if you use flags to compile it for one processor | 00:41 |
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| slaine | w00t_: yes, it's a tad disappointing. I'd imagine we'll see a whole raft of stuff come online between 1.0 and 1.1 | 00:41 |
| thiago_home | if it can run on Windows and Mac, why can't it run on older x86? | 00:41 |
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| thiago_home | again the distinction between application SDK and platform SDK I guess | 00:42 |
| w00t_ | slaine: *nod* | 00:42 |
| lbt | thiago_home: yes | 00:42 |
| thiago_home | the application SDK should pretty much run anywhere | 00:42 |
| * javispedro envisions application SDK requiring SSSE3 ;) | 00:42 | |
| thiago_home | the platform SDK is for geeks like us | 00:42 |
| lbt | but you can't make an image to put on your device. | 00:42 |
| slaine | javispedro: For x86, it probalby will | 00:42 |
| w00t_ | slaine: it's just a bit frustrating having things held up is all, I'm looking forward to playing with it :) | 00:42 |
| slaine | aren't we all :) | 00:42 |
| javispedro | thank god I can rebuild it then :) | 00:43 |
| vgrade | The relase has been branched and is being matured now (qgil, 19:50:30), its available now | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | I really don't understand what the big deal is. I don't see anyone complaining about Neon requirement. (aside from those who want to run on N800/N810) | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | and Neon will never be supported on x86 | 00:44 |
| thiago_home | it's ARM | 00:44 |
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| CosmoHill | Neon? | 00:44 |
| thiago_home | if we can run a completely different arch, why can't we run a slightly different one? | 00:44 |
| javispedro | thiago: exactly. they are complaining! | 00:44 |
| CosmoHill | nate@blue[1014]:~ $ rpm -q neon | 00:44 |
| CosmoHill | neon-0.28.2-2.i686 | 00:44 |
| CosmoHill | that program? | 00:44 |
| thiago_home | no, ARM Neon | 00:44 |
| CosmoHill | my mistake | 00:44 |
| thiago_home | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Advanced_SIMD_.28NEON.29 | 00:44 |
| lbt | thiago_home: because, AFAIK there's no quemu for ssse3 on non-sssse3 devices | 00:45 |
| thiago_home | lbt: technical issue that can be solved | 00:45 |
| thiago_home | again, if we can emulate a completely different arch, why not one that is only slightly different? | 00:45 |
| lbt | oh, I agree | 00:45 |
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| lbt | I was asking about it months ago... | 00:46 |
| lbt | zero interest. | 00:46 |
| lbt | when MeeGo goes bigger then more devs will hit it when they try to make images | 00:46 |
| thiago_home | maybe | 00:46 |
| lbt | heck, I think the community OBS uses AMD cpus... that'll be interesting | 00:47 |
| thiago_home | but my opinion is that, for a distro targetting low-powered processors, we should be squeezing the most out of performance | 00:47 |
| javispedro | thiago: agreed with that. now, development tools, on the other side... | 00:47 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: application SDK vs platform SDK. | 00:47 |
| lbt | that's not the point... the point is that there's no mechanism for non-Intel desktop owners to engage | 00:48 |
| thiago_home | the application SDK has to run pretty much everywhere. | 00:48 |
| thiago_home | I've been telling so to everyone who wants to listen. | 00:48 |
| javispedro | thiago: both are development tools; why I'd need to create platform images from the target device? | 00:48 |
| thiago_home | the platform SDK is a nother matter. Especially for bootstrapping and creating images, and make world. | 00:48 |
| javispedro | platform SDK also needs to run everywhere. | 00:48 |
| w00t_ | (evening, thiago_home + lbt and others) | 00:48 |
| lbt | :) | 00:49 |
| slaine | thiago_home: one of the biggest headaches in moblin, as a community member, was the almost daily questions of "can I run moblin on this ?....Why not, it's intel .....That sucks" | 00:49 |
| thiago_home | anyway, we should optimise the most. And I don't think we should compromise there because some people can't run the software natively *and* there's a clear technical solution (improve qemu) | 00:49 |
| * javispedro is confused and attacks himself. | 00:49 | |
| thiago_home | otherwise someone is going to come and say we can't have atomic instructions on x86 because someone is still using a 386 | 00:50 |
| thiago_home | (moot point, of course, Qt doesn't run on 386) | 00:50 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: it doesn't? we must fix this! | 00:50 |
| microlith | so therefore AMD users should upgrade? | 00:50 |
| thiago_home | w00t_: it requires at least one 486 instructin | 00:51 |
| thiago_home | microlith: no, they should fix qemu | 00:51 |
| w00t_ | I'm just kidding, don't let me sidetrack the conversation | 00:51 |
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| javispedro | thiago: nobody is going to emulate its compiler; we've been through this already (scratchbox) | 00:52 |
| thiago_home | I'm not talking about emulating compilers | 00:52 |
| thiago_home | compilers have to be compiled for all major archs | 00:52 |
| javispedro | then why you mention platform SDK vs application SDK? both should be native. | 00:52 |
| thiago_home | they have to be compiled for Windows and Mac too | 00:52 |
| javispedro | both should generate non-native binaries. | 00:52 |
| thiago_home | application SDK = cross-compiler only | 00:52 |
| thiago_home | platform SDK = cross-compiler and a lot more helper tools | 00:53 |
| * javispedro fails to see it any difference between this and the classic decade old cross compiling environment | 00:53 | |
| javispedro | thiago: ah well. | 00:53 |
| thiago_home | the image-creation tool doesn't need to be in the app SDK | 00:53 |
| thiago_home | "You want to create a MeeGo-based device and launch it in the market? You can certainly invest in a couple of good machines running Linux" | 00:54 |
| thiago_home | (I'm not saying good == Intel) | 00:55 |
| thiago_home | as opposed to "You want to make some apps for MeeGo? You can use your existing laptop, running whatever environment you have already" | 00:55 |
| lcuk | you just stopped practically every single bedroom coder in one step | 00:56 |
| javispedro | yet another barrier for serious development. | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | I don't follow | 00:56 |
| w00t_ | me neither | 00:56 |
| lcuk | thats *worse* than the entry level required for maemo | 00:56 |
| lcuk | having to change machines | 00:56 |
| w00t_ | thiago's point is that a cross compiler lowers the barrier to entry | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | entry level required for maemo = Debian-based 32-bit Linux machine | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | entry level I am requesting = machine | 00:57 |
| lcuk | no its windows | 00:57 |
| javispedro | actually, machine capable of virtualization :) | 00:57 |
| thiago_home | I didn't say it had to virtualise | 00:57 |
| w00t_ | that's still a lot more hassle than most people are willing to go through | 00:57 |
| lcuk | thats the level but if they currently code apps for a platform now | 00:57 |
| thiago_home | if it can run a cross-compiler and you have a USB port, it should be enough | 00:57 |
| lcuk | for them to start coding for meego | 00:57 |
| thiago_home | heck, the SDK works without USB ports | 00:57 |
| microlith | thiago_home: for "app" development,r giht? | 00:58 |
| thiago_home | you can deploy via ssh over wifi and do remote debugging | 00:58 |
| microlith | right* | 00:58 |
| thiago_home | microlith: yes, app SDK | 00:58 |
| microlith | now who said that -I- want to only do app development? | 00:58 |
| w00t_ | if you don't want to do app development, don't use the app SDK | 00:58 |
| thiago_home | then use the platform SDK | 00:58 |
| w00t_ | nobody is forcing you to | 00:58 |
| thiago_home | above I was showing extremes | 00:58 |
| MiskaX | i have to say that visual studio is still winner when it comes to remote debugging... | 00:58 |
| javispedro | I'm not saying that a simpler more portable "madde" is worse; I am saying that this is no excuse for adding more complexity to the platform SDK (scratchbox, etc.) (requiring SSSE3 -- yuck :) ) | 00:58 |
| w00t_ | different alternatives for different people | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | right *now* you have to have SSSE3 | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | what I don't want is for the devices to have to settle for less because *you* don't have SSSE3 | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | there are other solutions, including improving qemu | 00:59 |
| w00t_ | I'm in two minds really | 00:59 |
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| lcuk | improvements to qemu should be done anyway | 01:00 |
| lcuk | /are being done | 01:00 |
| slaine | why should ssse3 matter for the core os though, that's what I don't get | 01:00 |
| w00t_ | hardware (especially in some places) is not readily available, and it's one thing to say "fix qemu" and it's another to expect (potentially hobbyist) developers to do it | 01:00 |
| lcuk | w00t_, OSS apps get tidied up | 01:00 |
| thiago_home | slaine: suppose there is a 5% gain. Should we do it? | 01:00 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: i'm not denying they don't | 01:00 |
| slaine | thiago_home: quantify that with some tests please | 01:00 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: but you're barking in the wrong place, really | 01:00 |
| thiago_home | slaine: not when I say "suppose" | 01:00 |
| javispedro | supposeeee | 01:00 |
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| slaine | I'm seeing figures banded about that people pull out of their you know whats, no data | 01:01 |
| thiago_home | I'm not saying there is | 01:01 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: if a new developer comes along and can't use this, and you say to him "fix qemu and then you can", there is a serious risk they'll wander off and find something else to spend his time on | 01:01 |
| thiago_home | I'm asking a hypothetical question | 01:01 |
| w00t_ | s/his/their/ | 01:01 |
| infobot | w00t_ meant: lcuk: if a new developer comes along and can't use ttheir, and you say to him "fix qemu and then you can", there is a serious risk they'll wander off and find something else to spend his time on | 01:01 |
| thiago_home | suppose someone did the benchmarks and calculated there's a 5% gain | 01:01 |
| thiago_home | should we do it? | 01:01 |
| slaine | sorry, issed the suppose | 01:01 |
| slaine | missed | 01:01 |
| * lbt notes that *right now* you can't develop without an ssse3 desktop. | 01:01 | |
| lcuk | yeah w00t_ | 01:01 |
| lbt | and *right now* there are no shipping devices | 01:02 |
| MiskaX | btw, when it comes to simd instruction usage and such, any proper app dynamically selects generic or optimized code variant based on cpu capabilities | 01:02 |
| lbt | so *right now* there's no performance benefit to sss3 | 01:02 |
| lbt | and a huge barrier to engagement | 01:02 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, currently i am aware of a quantifiable build of libjpeg that has been improved by use of NEON - but that does not mean that libjpeg was useless before | 01:02 |
| javispedro | MiskaX: not very liked on a mobile distro. | 01:02 |
| thiago_home | MiskaX: multimedia apps do | 01:02 |
| lbt | since *right now* there is no app development for meego | 01:02 |
| thiago_home | JPEG is a case where the GPU should be used | 01:02 |
| MiskaX | thiago_home: yep, like my code | 01:02 |
| lcuk | and is where practical | 01:02 |
| MiskaX | javispedro: i don't see any reason to avoid that on mobile either | 01:03 |
| lcuk | but that doesnt mean you should rebuild the entire OS because of it | 01:03 |
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| slaine | I'd love to base our products on a MeeGo foundation, I can't if there's an x86 ssse3 requirement, and I wouldn't be using the UX as it stands. | 01:03 |
| MiskaX | all those code paths should be handwritten assembly anyway and pretty tiny amount of the total code | 01:03 |
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| lcuk | with ifdefs to take care of the cases where its not | 01:03 |
| thiago_home | slaine: that's a complete different take on the subject, though | 01:03 |
| slaine | that's always been my take | 01:04 |
| thiago_home | slaine: you're saying "I want to ship products on something that is not Atom or ARM OMAP3" | 01:04 |
| slaine | yes | 01:04 |
| thiago_home | right now, and until the direction changes, Atom and OMAP3 are the base configs | 01:04 |
| * javispedro envisions MeeGo SDK with MEEGO_X86, MEEGO_X86_SSE3 and MEEGO_X86_ARMEL targets, and much like the current maemo sdk, with the shipped qemu incapable of emulating the latter two ones. | 01:04 | |
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| slaine | I'll still try once 1.0 is out and I get all the source rpms | 01:04 |
| javispedro | *SSSE3 | 01:04 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: that's probably easy to do | 01:04 |
| MiskaX | unfortunately arm is a bit lacking on cpu capability detection front, my atomic ops detection code is a bit ugly atm | 01:05 |
| slaine | hopefully the packaging issues have been expunged | 01:05 |
| thiago_home | hand-written assembly should be selectable. The rest is a flag to the compiler. | 01:05 |
| thiago_home | you don't detect the CPU in ARM | 01:05 |
| lcuk | does anybody know, would the "normal" middle of the road Pentium M without ssse3 be generally faster than the high spec atoms? | 01:05 |
| thiago_home | you *know* what processor you put in your device. | 01:05 |
| javispedro | thiago++ | 01:05 |
| slaine | lcuk: HELL YES | 01:05 |
| lcuk | so isnt the speedup point entirely moot anyway? | 01:05 |
| slaine | completely | 01:06 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: speed? yes | 01:06 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: power consumption, not by a long shot | 01:06 |
| javispedro | well, if the atom is slow, you try to get the best out of it. | 01:06 |
| MiskaX | thiago_home: that's not portable code... ;) | 01:06 |
| javispedro | so I understand the need for ssse3 if it does anything tangible. | 01:06 |
| thiago_home | the calculation is speed by watt consumed | 01:06 |
| thiago_home | MiskaX: ARM doesn't care about portable code. Or hasn't until now. | 01:06 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, my intel Pentium M based 12" touchscreen tablet works really well | 01:06 |
| javispedro | MiskaX: we're not necessarily talking about a single hotspot written in ASM. Think entire programs build for different FP architectures. | 01:07 |
| lcuk | i even run it at 600mhz powersave mode :D | 01:07 |
| MiskaX | thiago_home: just as an example, try to build binary which runs optimally on OMAP2 _and_ OMAP3 | 01:07 |
| thiago_home | MiskaX: what's your point, that it's very hard? | 01:07 |
| lcuk | MiskaX, i barely noticed the difference | 01:07 |
| slaine | lcuk, We've the same cpu's in our gear | 01:07 |
| lcuk | i just build with -O2 and didnt upgrade scratchbox from diablo for ages | 01:08 |
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| javispedro | lcuk: then don't upgrade cause the fremantle compiler is slight slower :) | 01:08 |
| javispedro | *slightly | 01:08 |
| MiskaX | lcuk: the difference is quite huge in certain cases | 01:08 |
| lcuk | too late i needed to | 01:08 |
| MiskaX | javispedro: vtables for high level functions built for two fp archs | 01:08 |
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| javispedro | MiskaX: WHAT? | 01:09 |
| javispedro | and call that optimized? | 01:09 |
| MiskaX | i'm doing that already on my dsp library for x86 | 01:09 |
| javispedro | you expect to do that manually for every application in existence? | 01:09 |
| MiskaX | sse2, sse3, e3dnow, etc. | 01:09 |
| lcuk | are most of us in agreement then that for most cases theres no real technical reason to require ssse3 ? | 01:09 |
| thiago_home | in most cases there isn't | 01:09 |
| lcuk | MiskaX, is special | 01:10 |
| thiago_home | at least, looking at the SSSE3 instructions, I can't understand why | 01:10 |
| lcuk | but he doesnt have to build entire OS | 01:10 |
| MiskaX | javispedro: no, i use c++ capabilities for that ;) | 01:10 |
| thiago_home | nothing groundbreaking there | 01:10 |
| lbt | and currently the only thing ssse3 does is stop people from developing for meego? | 01:10 |
| thiago_home | I've seen gcc use SSE on its own, but no clue what level it was | 01:10 |
| thiago_home | the one ABI issue I've seen is the FP one | 01:11 |
| thiago_home | but that doesn't require SSSE3 AFAIK | 01:11 |
| lcuk | and thats entirely reasonable thiago_home | 01:11 |
| slaine | well, supposedly, ssse3 offers a large performance improvement in FP code over sse2 | 01:11 |
| lcuk | its been proven since early days that FP improvements work well | 01:11 |
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| thiago_home | especially in graphics | 01:11 |
| slaine | but the majority of the system isn't being held back by FP performance | 01:11 |
| lcuk | slaine, but we arent saying FP is going to be emulated etc | 01:11 |
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| MiskaX | all compilers are still bad on optimizing things like iir biquad code | 01:12 |
| thiago_home | a few % makes a the difference between 30fps and 60fps | 01:12 |
| lcuk | of course | 01:12 |
| slaine | that's 100% surely | 01:12 |
| thiago_home | if you miss the 60fps mark, you have to settle for 30 to avoid tearing | 01:12 |
| lcuk | surely not! | 01:12 |
| slaine | how does that affect my mke2fs program though ? | 01:13 |
| lcuk | if you can transfer the data in <1/60th of a second | 01:13 |
| lcuk | tearing is a completely different problem | 01:13 |
| lcuk | COMPLETELY | 01:13 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: if you can't calculate and draw your frame in 16 ms, you've lost | 01:13 |
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| thiago_home | then you might as well take 33 | 01:13 |
| slaine | look, we're not talking about writing games | 01:13 |
| thiago_home | nor am I | 01:13 |
| javispedro | what? | 01:13 |
| thiago_home | I'm talking about UIs | 01:14 |
| thiago_home | scrolling, for example | 01:14 |
| javispedro | all is about games! | 01:14 |
| javispedro | what does the iphone has -- games. | 01:14 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, i know all about fluid uis | 01:14 |
| thiago_home | I'm pretty sure you do scrolling | 01:14 |
| w00t_ | scrolling is *important*. | 01:14 |
| CosmoHill | AH AH Ah dead leg | 01:14 |
| MiskaX | just separate class implementations into different source files, use virtual base class and use a runtime-detection factory method to construct the correct specialiced instance | 01:14 |
| javispedro | what do people want to do with their underpowered netbooks -- games. | 01:14 |
| w00t_ | it makes the difference between a beautiful UI experience and a trainwreck | 01:14 |
| lcuk | if tearing is a framerate issue, 60fps would be MORE susceptable than 30 | 01:15 |
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| MiskaX | ...different source files can be built with different options... | 01:15 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: my point is that 58 fps has tearing | 01:15 |
| lcuk | tearing is refreshing the screen itself with some of the old and some of the new | 01:15 |
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| thiago_home | yes, 60fps is more susceptible | 01:15 |
| lcuk | tearing is because you havent transfered all the data across | 01:15 |
| slaine | this is all theory though of course. the fact is that clutter et al work incredibly well on pretty old and underpowered systems so long as the hardware accelerated rendering works | 01:15 |
| thiago_home | all the more reason to gain even 1% everywhere | 01:15 |
| lcuk | the tearing is 100% system transfer bus speed | 01:15 |
| lcuk | and also whether theres buffers on the lcd side | 01:16 |
| lcuk | you can have tearing on a 1fps system | 01:16 |
| thiago_home | but no one wants a 1fps system | 01:16 |
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| thiago_home | I think the Nexus One feels horrible at 15 fps | 01:16 |
| javispedro | tearing eink-based ebook readers!! ohnoes!! | 01:16 |
| lcuk | but you asserted if you cannot have 60fps you have to drop to 30 | 01:16 |
| lcuk | thats silly | 01:16 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: yes. But the point is that we want 60 fps. | 01:17 |
| lcuk | javispedro, shush i actually considered how to render to those once :p | 01:17 |
| lcuk | of course thiago_home | 01:17 |
| thiago_home | and to have 60fps, we need to get all the optimisations we can get | 01:17 |
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| thiago_home | in graphics, were FP performance does matter. | 01:17 |
| lcuk | but even the highest spec graphics cards pumping out the highest visuals drop under 60fps sometimes | 01:17 |
| thiago_home | yes they do | 01:17 |
| javispedro | and clearly, the ability to "take two registers, concatenate their values, and pull out a register-length section from an offset given by an immediate value encoded in the instruction" is going to help us reach the 60fps mark. | 01:17 |
| thiago_home | but it shouldn't be because your graphics backend is slow | 01:18 |
| thiago_home | it should be because the CPU is busy doing something important | 01:18 |
| lcuk | how freeedrich| quently depends on how optimized the graphics drivers are | 01:18 |
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| lcuk | if ssse3 makes such a difference to those then they will be built with it anyway - we are expecting blobs to be from there | 01:18 |
| lcuk | anyway | 01:18 |
| MiskaX | lcuk: i would compare this with audio playback. you can make audio software which never has dropouts. if you cannot keep up with audio frame rate, you have broken audio. same goes for certain graphics too | 01:18 |
| MiskaX | realtime systems - my turf... | 01:19 |
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| lcuk | MiskaX, sure i see graphical glitches every single day | 01:19 |
| javispedro | hey, at least PSHUFB is useful. | 01:19 |
| * javispedro has at least once wished for it. | 01:19 | |
| thiago_home | anyway, to summarise what I am saying: there are solutions to allowing people to develop without having a Core2 that don't imply reducing the optimisation on devices | 01:20 |
| MiskaX | if you car's abs breaks decided to hang for a second you can have a fatal crash | 01:20 |
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| MiskaX | lcuk: that's called bad software | 01:20 |
| lcuk | MiskaX, sometimes caused by hardware | 01:20 |
| MiskaX | that's bad hadrware design then | 01:20 |
| lcuk | and long historical pipelines | 01:20 |
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| MiskaX | running deterministic software on deterministic hardware is deterministic system | 01:21 |
| lcuk | ? | 01:21 |
| MiskaX | it's pretty rare that even a cheap DVD player would not keep up with DVD framerate for the entire length of a movies | 01:22 |
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| lcuk | sure - because they purchased a single use chip that was designed to do that | 01:22 |
| MiskaX | that's usually a CPU+GPU+software. i used to work on set-top-boxes... | 01:23 |
| lcuk | but if i buy a dvd drive and plug it into my computer with software it can only do the best it can | 01:23 |
| MiskaX | (recording DVB-boxes) | 01:23 |
| lcuk | and all the media players include support for dropping frames and other things | 01:23 |
| lcuk | its like gaming: you have options to control quality settings | 01:23 |
| MiskaX | that's why pc gaming is failing :) | 01:24 |
| * javispedro ponders what happened to the "why are development tools built for ssse3" story. | 01:24 | |
| lcuk | i can happily run the same games on a low spec graphics card as a high spec one | 01:24 |
| w00t_ | javispedro: welcome to IRC, enjoy your stay | 01:24 |
| lcuk | i just turn the resolution down and tweak the polygon count | 01:24 |
| MiskaX | or you buy xbox360 and have exactly pre-defined experience without any adjustments | 01:25 |
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| javispedro | actually, nobody can do a thing about it so let's just forget about it hoping that amd grabs ssse3 before the meego judgement day | 01:25 |
| MiskaX | since i've been doing audio software for ages, i find it so funny that graphics people find it hard to keep up with performance spec. | 01:26 |
| lcuk | or someone sets up a build server to drag in and redo things as the moblin remixes have shown is possible | 01:26 |
| MiskaX | i can do several hour long recording over and over again without glitches :) | 01:26 |
| lcuk | audio consists of maximum 5 pixels | 01:26 |
| lcuk | ;) | 01:26 |
| javispedro | lcuk: indeed. hopefully one of the benefits of meego -- that you can redo it easily. | 01:27 |
| MiskaX | well, 64 channels, 192 khz, 32-bit | 01:27 |
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| lcuk | jesus audio is 32bit now? | 01:27 |
| MiskaX | that's 46.8 MB/s + all the heavy DSP processing in realtime for that | 01:27 |
| MiskaX | just for practical reasons, 24-bit samples are carried in 32-bit words (dma alignment on bus) | 01:28 |
| lcuk | can people tell the difference between 16 and 24/32 bit? | 01:28 |
| MiskaX | i can pump up the cpu load to constant 80% and no glitches | 01:29 |
| lcuk | leaving 20% for the graphics \@/ | 01:29 |
| lcuk | you bastard :p | 01:29 |
| MiskaX | sure, especially if you put some 40 dB digital gain | 01:29 |
| thiago_home | the difference between 16- and 24-bit samples is the noise level | 01:29 |
| thiago_home | if you're doing audio work, each operation adds to the noise | 01:30 |
| thiago_home | the extra 8 bits mean the end result has less noise than otherwise | 01:30 |
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| lcuk | nod, that does sound reasonable | 01:31 |
| MiskaX | normalized mixing of two channels ((c1 + c2) >> 1) - 1 bit lost already | 01:31 |
| thiago_home | or 3dB increase in noise | 01:31 |
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| MiskaX | anyway, i fully agree about optimization and fps, but i still tend to think that for most part code can autoselect hardware dependent optimization paths, either by autoselecting .so on-fly or by doing similar inline | 01:33 |
| MiskaX | and helloworld doesn't have to require simd ;) | 01:34 |
| thiago_home | MiskaX: it does | 01:34 |
| MiskaX | for rest of the performance, it's about correctly utilizing kernel scheduler | 01:35 |
| MiskaX | EDF scheduling for graphics and audio, anyone? ;) | 01:35 |
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| thiago_home | http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qstring.cpp#line3722 | 01:36 |
| thiago_home | this has nothing to do with graphics or audio | 01:36 |
| thiago_home | but uses SIMD anyway | 01:36 |
| MiskaX | sure, but specifically those can autoselect | 01:36 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, i *do* like optimisations like that | 01:37 |
| javispedro | the extra indirection would probably cost more performance that the benefit of doing it with sse2 | 01:37 |
| lcuk | using hardware available when its built makes total sense | 01:37 |
| thiago_home | MiskaX: those aren't auto-selected | 01:37 |
| MiskaX | have two qstring class builds, simd and non-simd and autoconstruct correct one | 01:37 |
| thiago_home | if you compile with SSE2, you get those | 01:37 |
| thiago_home | otherwise, you don't | 01:37 |
| thiago_home | same for the NEON version of the inverse operation (http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qstring.cpp#line3494) | 01:38 |
| thiago_home | btw, gcc uses the same intrinsincs on its own code if you let it | 01:38 |
| lcuk | are there any similar optimisations built in for the ssse bit | 01:38 |
| MiskaX | thiago_home: it could be... | 01:38 |
| * lcuk tried inlining asm into the blitter on liqbase but always failed to get the compiler to accept them | 01:39 | |
| javispedro | thiago: you mean gcc's neon autovectorizer works with that loop? | 01:39 |
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| MiskaX | in the past i used to have similar thing, but then there was the trouble that x86 linux distros wanted to build for lowest supported hardware | 01:39 |
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| MiskaX | that's why things are autodetected these days | 01:40 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: I haven't seen SIMD in ARM code by gcc yet, but I have in x86 | 01:40 |
| javispedro | MiskaX: not completely true. | 01:40 |
| javispedro | let's say there are three ways to do it: | 01:40 |
| thiago_home | mostly due to loop unrolling | 01:40 |
| javispedro | 1. common denominator (386) | 01:40 |
| thiago_home | -ftree-vector | 01:40 |
| javispedro | 2. common denominator for most apps, ship all specifics versions for certain apps (kernel, glibc, mplayer...) | 01:40 |
| javispedro | 3. specific version for all apps (gentoo, ... ) | 01:41 |
| thiago_home | the graphics code does detect SSE2 and disables itself if not present. In fact, it auto-selects other variants. | 01:41 |
| lcuk | im going anyway, its been an informative evening, gnite thiago_home javispedro lbt #meego \o | 01:41 |
| thiago_home | it was judged to be to complex for QString though | 01:41 |
| javispedro | all modern distros are doing (2) | 01:41 |
| javispedro | gnite lcuk | 01:41 |
| lcuk | w00t_, slaine MiskaX \o | 01:42 |
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| w00t_ | nite lcuk | 01:42 |
| javispedro | and both maemo and meego do (3) | 01:42 |
| javispedro | cause they know the target hardware. | 01:42 |
| MiskaX | thiago_home: for example, look at http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/trunk/jack/libjack/port.c:jack_port_set_funcs() | 01:42 |
| thiago_home | MiskaX: no doubt | 01:43 |
| thiago_home | I've seen vlc do some evil things too | 01:43 |
| thiago_home | CPU detection via SIGILL :-) | 01:43 |
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| MiskaX | thiago_home: this is what i wrote for jack and i don't consider it evil: http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/trunk/jack/libjack/simd.c | 01:44 |
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| MiskaX | there's the detection code at the beginning | 01:45 |
| MiskaX | unfortunately for ARM there's no such nice way available | 01:46 |
| ShadowJK | 30 vs 60 fps.. do you mean that at 58 you'd get the occasional duplicate frame, which would make scrollong look jerky? Tearing is when screen displays parts of several different frames simultaneously, and can be avoided as long as cpu can memcpy() a frame fast enough, or, you know, double buffering.. | 01:46 |
| thiago_home | MiskaX: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/qsimd.cpp | 01:47 |
| thiago_home | I meant http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qsimd.cpp | 01:47 |
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| MiskaX | thiago_home: yep, seems to be same thing | 01:47 |
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| MiskaX | thiago_home: so for qstring you would construct internal private class instance out of various specialiced ones based on cached cpu detection instead of the funny ifdef | 01:48 |
| thiago_home | there aren't many ways to flip bits in the same registers | 01:48 |
| thiago_home | not really possible with C++ | 01:48 |
| thiago_home | QString isn't a virtual class | 01:48 |
| MiskaX | it could utilize vtables initialized at load time | 01:49 |
| thiago_home | no vtables. It's not a virtual class. | 01:49 |
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| MiskaX | thiago_home: doesn't matter... | 01:50 |
| thiago_home | I need to go to bed now | 01:50 |
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| MiskaX | same here, almost 2am.. | 01:50 |
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| MiskaX | really good example of funky vtable is the arm kernel-provided atomic ops | 01:52 |
| MiskaX | automagically hardware specific without app knowing anything about it | 01:53 |
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| ShadowJK | MPlayer's fast scaler on N8x0 constructs the code in ram at scaler init time, in order to avoid indirection and extra branches ;p | 01:55 |
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| slaine | and I'm spent | 01:55 |
| slaine | catch you all tomorrow | 01:55 |
| w00t_ | nite slaine | 01:56 |
| slaine | nite | 01:56 |
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| Termana | good morning | 05:10 |
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| Stskeeps | morning | 07:02 |
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| Termana | Stskeeps, good morning | 07:15 |
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| * Stskeeps ponders to jump back to bed | 07:29 | |
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| TSCHAKeee | Stskeeps: so have you ported MeeGo to Mer, yet? | 07:42 |
| * TSCHAKeee runs!!! | 07:42 | |
| TSCHAKeee | :) | 07:42 |
| * TSCHAKeee laughs maniacally | 07:43 | |
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| TheAngel | hi, i was wondering if there is any tutorial on howto install meego on the n900? | 07:44 |
| TSCHAKeee | TheAngel: instructions on the meego wiki | 07:44 |
| TSCHAKeee | TheAngel: but since you're asking that question | 07:44 |
| TSCHAKeee | TheAngel: the current build is not for you | 07:44 |
| TheAngel | :( | 07:44 |
| TSCHAKeee | TheAngel: there is no UI | 07:44 |
| TheAngel | :o | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | it is a build that was done to check the cohesion of the low level parts of the stack | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | of course | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | you would know this | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | if you read | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | 07:45 | |
| TSCHAKeee | the forums | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | blogs | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | any of those | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | for more than 5 minutes | 07:45 |
| TSCHAKeee | :) | 07:45 |
| Termana | TSCHAKeee, ported MeeGo to Mer? what are you talking about? :P | 07:46 |
| TSCHAKeee | Termana: joke | 07:46 |
| TSCHAKeee | ;) | 07:46 |
| Termana | Also, normal people put sentences on a single line :nod: hehe :P | 07:46 |
| TSCHAKeee | Termana: I went | 07:46 |
| TSCHAKeee | to the | 07:46 |
| TSCHAKeee | Miguel de Icaza | 07:46 |
| TSCHAKeee | school of IRC | 07:46 |
| TSCHAKeee | ;) | 07:46 |
| Termana | :D | 07:46 |
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| TSCHAKeee | or william shatner... take your pick | 07:47 |
| TSCHAKeee | :) | 07:47 |
| Termana | :P | 07:48 |
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| Termana | Stskeeps, ping (when you get out of bed) | 07:48 |
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| Termana | TSCHAKeee, I think you scared TheAngel off :P | 07:51 |
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| TSCHAKeee | sorry. | 07:51 |
| TSCHAKeee | just amazes me nobody even does a cursory glance for ....... anything | 07:51 |
| slonopotamus | -.- | 07:52 |
| TSCHAKeee | instructions...comments.....blog posts saying "DUDE! DON'T TOUCH IT YET!".... | 07:52 |
| Termana | TSCHAKeee, Of course, did you expect any better from the masses? :P | 07:52 |
| TSCHAKeee | i hope....you know....like when Charlton Heston screamed, "SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!" | 07:53 |
| TSCHAKeee | :P | 07:53 |
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| jrayhawk | Ah, suffering from Carriage Return Affective Problem, I see. | 08:56 |
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| Termana | jrayhawk, flat tyre? | 08:58 |
| Termana | Your a bit late :P | 08:58 |
| jrayhawk | To a true IRCer, time has no meaning. A year is as a day. | 08:59 |
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| pupnik | \ut i wanna beat people up RIGHT NOW! | 09:00 |
| jrayhawk | laffo | 09:00 |
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| Stskeeps | Termana: pong | 09:10 |
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| Termana | Stskeeps, I thought I'd move our discussion here since it relates to MeeGo and others may be able to contribute (or learn something). | 09:12 |
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| Stskeeps | which one of them? :P | 09:13 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, heh :P About getting MeeGo on the Nexus One | 09:13 |
| Stskeeps | ah, about how feasible it would be | 09:14 |
| Termana | right | 09:14 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, You said to me that if I installed a different UI, apps that didn't depend on Open GL ES would work fine. So if I chrooted in from Debian they should work fine as well right? (Since they would be using Debian's UI and X server) | 09:15 |
| Stskeeps | well, that's the hope at least - ideally you'd be booting straight into it | 09:15 |
| Stskeeps | see inspiration at the n900 chroot pages | 09:15 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, right, I would be setting up the chroot as a first step so that people can have something at least and then continue on to getting it booting natively. | 09:18 |
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| Termana | (and to confirm that everything is definitely working as expected) | 09:19 |
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| Stskeeps | chroot's a start yeah | 09:27 |
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| Termana | Stskeeps, I guess the discussion should of been moved here earlier, since we covered mostly everything over pm. The part of apps that don't depend on GLES working in chroot was really it. At least until things get going :P | 09:32 |
| Termana | Thats when everything starts to crumble :P | 09:32 |
| Stskeeps | dunno how bad it looks on that side :P | 09:33 |
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| pupnik | same device should be able to run android and meego apps in one meego/linux OS | 09:36 |
| Termana | pupnik, right, I'll also be investigating chrooting into MeeGo from Android on the N1 - since I'm sure some people will want that too | 09:37 |
| Stskeeps | pupnik: if the ubuntu guys had released their code instead of playing hide the sausage, yeah | 09:38 |
| Stskeeps | http://mjfrey.blogspot.com/ | 09:39 |
| Termana | In terms of the Nexus One, it will probably be better to have MeeGo under a chroot with Android. Then I don't have to work on getting the modem to play nice with ofono :P Should be about the same thing people are doing with Debian - start an x server in MeeGo chroot and a vnc server and vnc in from Android | 09:41 |
| Stskeeps | chroot's just really lasting, a simple port should be easy | 09:42 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:42 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, yes, yes, don't worry Mr Porter - I'll be seeing if I can get it to straight boot as well. All in the fun of tinkering :P | 09:43 |
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| pupnik | Termana: i tink this is a more important goal than just 'tinkering' | 10:01 |
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| Termana | pupnik, more important goal? whats that, saving the poor android users? :P | 10:12 |
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| pupnik | Termana: right | 10:20 |
| Termana | pupnik, heh in all serious, one goal more important than tinkering is to spread MeeGo to as many existing and yet to be made devices as possible. If the right people get to see that MeeGo can go further than just the devices Nokia and Intel put out, hopefully more will adopt. | 10:22 |
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| Termana | We're already seeing heaps of companies planning to adopt MeeGo | 10:23 |
| Termana | and I'm sure (hopefully) there will be many more | 10:23 |
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| pupnik | can we hold a donations lottery to find who chose the name and dunk them? | 10:25 |
| Termana | pupnik, I don't know what people find so wrong with the name MeeGo :P | 10:26 |
| Termana | Seems perfectly fine to me. Certainly not bad at least | 10:27 |
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| pupnik | it sounds like a retarded person describing what they are about to do | 10:28 |
| Stskeeps | well, with maemo it was a random password generator or something, so noone to blame | 10:29 |
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| pupnik | Jar Jar Binks: Monsters out there, leaking in here. Weesa all sinking and no power. Whena yousa thinking we are in trouble? | 10:30 |
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| pupnik | Jar Jar Binks: I don't know. Mesa day startin pretty okee-day with a brisky morning munchy, then BOOM! Gettin very scared and grabbin that Jedi and POW! Mesa here! Mesa gettin' very very scared! | 10:30 |
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| Termana | Stskeeps, the same sort of thing would work with Maemo 5 wouldn't it (chroot in, only launch apps that are not GLESv2 dependent (unless ALL apps are for some reason, in which case we'll have to slaughter someone))? Not that I think there is too many Maemo only apps, most have probably been ported from Debian et al. | 10:47 |
| Termana | gah, connection went a bit bung there, don't think it went through | 10:50 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, the same sort of thing would work with Maemo 5 wouldn't it (chroot in, only launch apps that are not GLESv2 dependent (unless ALL apps are for some reason, in which case we'll have to slaughter someone))? Not that I think there is too many Maemo only apps, most have probably been ported from Debian et al. | 10:50 |
| Stskeeps | you're writing very long sentences | 10:50 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:50 |
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| Stskeeps | it might work just like easy debian does | 10:51 |
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| Termana | Stskeeps, would you | 10:57 |
| Termana | rather that | 10:57 |
| Termana | I type | 10:57 |
| Termana | my sentences | 10:57 |
| Termana | like this? | 10:57 |
| Termana | :P | 10:57 |
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| Stskeeps | no, but half-way | 10:57 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:57 |
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| Stskeeps | morning dneary | 11:13 |
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| dneary | hi Stskeeps | 11:15 |
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| Stskeeps | how's it going? | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | (good thread on tmo and mailing list btw) | 11:16 |
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| slaine | th0br0: you about ? | 12:45 |
| Stskeeps | morn slaine | 12:46 |
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| slaine | morn Stskeeps, how you doing ? | 12:47 |
| Stskeeps | decent, enjoying not having a commute when the weather is crap outside :P | 12:47 |
| slaine | pretty grim here too | 12:48 |
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| thiago | cloudy today, but better than Tuesday | 12:48 |
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| slaine | raincoat in yesterday and today, including warm hoody. Was sunny when I left late yesterday evening though | 12:51 |
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| thiago | it snowed on Tuesday | 12:52 |
| thiago | heavily | 12:52 |
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| slaine | thiago: we had hail and rain. Not as bad as you, but unusual for us at this time of year. May is usually our summer month :) | 13:02 |
| thiago | summer will be over soon | 13:04 |
| Bostik | summer may not arrive this year either :/ | 13:04 |
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| smoku | hi. is there any build-your-own-meego-rootfs-image-howto document available? | 14:21 |
| Stskeeps | well, yes | 14:21 |
| Stskeeps | wiki.meego.com/Image_Creation i think | 14:21 |
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| * CosmoHill offers slaine some coffee / tea | 14:24 | |
| * slaine eagerly accepts, but wonders where the catch is | 14:24 | |
| smoku | Stskeeps, thanks. (the wiki search is unusable :( | 14:25 |
| CosmoHill | nothing, I just made myself a cup of tea | 14:25 |
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| CosmoHill | at the moment I'm just reading through my code to make sure everything makes sense | 14:26 |
| slaine | I'm prepping a fresh buiild | 14:27 |
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| CosmoHill | ei you can look at a function or variable and know what it does | 14:27 |
| CosmoHill | I.E.* | 14:27 |
| CosmoHill | slaine: I think my program is finished :) | 14:28 |
| CosmoHill | now I just have todo the report | 14:28 |
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| slaine | CosmoHill: congrats | 14:29 |
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| CosmoHill | cat *.hpp *.cpp >> output | 14:31 |
| CosmoHill | a good way to find out how many lines of code | 14:31 |
| slaine | cat *.[hc]pp | wc -l | 14:32 |
| CosmoHill | 2373 | 14:33 |
| CosmoHill | - 407 | 14:33 |
| CosmoHill | so about 1964 | 14:34 |
| CosmoHill | (test.cpp is 407 lines of code but isn't used any more | 14:34 |
| pupnik | can i get a comment from the channel. why do you guys care about meego | 14:34 |
| pupnik | why should ANYONE care about meego | 14:35 |
| pupnik | non-paid shills | 14:35 |
| CosmoHill | I'm personally here to learn | 14:35 |
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| CosmoHill | I can build a linux system from source files | 14:35 |
| RST38h | pupnik <-- negative, real negative =) | 14:35 |
| pupnik | we have debian | 14:35 |
| CosmoHill | but I lack experience in a GUI or a decent package manager | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | debian is shit on mobile platforms | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | end of story | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | pupnik: it's a hell lot less evil than android, too | 14:36 |
| slaine | +1 | 14:36 |
| * RST38h has FreeBSD. FreeBSD will rule the world, thanks to its secret prophet Steve Jobs | 14:36 | |
| CosmoHill | i think debian is aimed more towards servers | 14:36 |
| * RST38h hides now | 14:36 | |
| CosmoHill | RST38h: i tried that once and got lose in the command line :( | 14:36 |
| pupnik | no, RST38h and Stskeeps should be promoted to GOD level here | 14:36 |
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| RST38h | pupnik: There can be only one | 14:36 |
| pupnik | lol | 14:36 |
| pupnik | not lol | 14:36 |
| Stskeeps | pupnik: well, /chanserv info #meego ;p | 14:36 |
| CosmoHill | RST38h: highlander! | 14:37 |
| * RST38h pulls out a rusty sword and looks at Stskeeps with an evil intent | 14:37 | |
| Termana | Let it be known, I will smite you even without God status | 14:37 |
| * Termana grabs the smite stick | 14:37 | |
| RST38h | oh smitey... | 14:37 |
| * Termana grabs the ugly stick as well | 14:37 | |
| pupnik | let it be known, i will be annoying unless RST38h and Stskeeps get god-status | 14:37 |
| Stskeeps | 'will be'? | 14:37 |
| pupnik | :D | 14:37 |
| RST38h | Godship is overrated | 14:37 |
| CosmoHill | isn't that like saying "ban me now you whores?" | 14:38 |
| RST38h | It is the clergy that gets all the good stuff | 14:38 |
| Termana | NO COMMENT | 14:38 |
| CosmoHill | (or any other insult) | 14:38 |
| Termana | :D | 14:38 |
| pupnik | i do hit people | 14:38 |
| Termana | Besides, what you really want is Jesusship - then you can die and be reborn. | 14:38 |
| Termana | "You arse, the sword hurt when it hit me in the heart" | 14:39 |
| pupnik | no, we have to seperate stupid from ... halfwayssmart | 14:39 |
| pupnik | Termana: who would you nominate for 'meego leader' | 14:39 |
| RST38h | Meanwhile in Baton Rouge: http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/04/house_committee_gives_its_bles.html | 14:39 |
| CosmoHill | do we need a single leader? | 14:40 |
| RST38h | pupnik: Paul Otellini | 14:40 |
| pupnik | we need to acknowledge people we respect | 14:40 |
| pupnik | openly | 14:40 |
| RST38h | Come on, pupnik, there is no real usable Meego distro yet | 14:40 |
| RST38h | (the netbook version does nto count) | 14:41 |
| Termana | pupnik, If you don't mind, even if I did have someone to nominate as "meego leader", I wouldn't say. But I think there are too many great contributors to be pointing out a single leader | 14:41 |
| pupnik | yes, but how do we achieve some kind of refactoring respect system | 14:41 |
| CosmoHill | "we would like to thank XXX for this fine looking command prompt" | 14:41 |
| RST38h | So, it is kinda early to expect any action here | 14:41 |
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| RST38h | pupnik: bloggers should get unlimited respect points, linearly increasing with each post containing word "meego" | 14:42 |
| Termana | pupnik, if you want to debate karma - go debate it with Jaffa in #maemo :P *giggles and runs off* | 14:42 |
| pupnik | thank you for making me almost puke | 14:42 |
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| * CosmoHill is confused so he wonders off todo his work | 14:42 | |
| Termana | I'm a prick :P | 14:42 |
| pupnik | Termana: why don't i know you? | 14:43 |
| Termana | Isn't that a silly question to ask? :P I don't know why you don't know something | 14:43 |
| * RST38h yawns and goes to the hospital | 14:43 | |
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| pupnik | look, meego is the gutter where people who give a SHIT about the future of FOSS on mobiles congregate | 14:45 |
| pupnik | that is either a bumclub or an elite congregation | 14:46 |
| pupnik | make it what you want | 14:46 |
| CosmoHill | meego is about 3 months old | 14:46 |
| pupnik | i'm off | 14:46 |
| CosmoHill | it's just a little baby, you need to give it time to grow up | 14:46 |
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| Stskeeps | why can't it be both a bumclub and an elite congregation? | 14:48 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:48 |
| CosmoHill | anyone else thing that stupid people shouldn't be allowed passion? | 14:48 |
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| CosmoHill | Stskeeps: can I pm you? | 14:50 |
| Stskeeps | sure, but i don't help with homework during work hours | 14:50 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:50 |
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| Jaffa | Termana: New rule - I only want to hear the word "karma" in re-runs of _My Name is Earl_ | 14:54 |
| CosmoHill | +1 | 14:54 |
| Termana | :P | 14:54 |
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| * lcuk waits for a new meego.com user to start a debate about karma | 15:02 | |
| lcuk | bets his name will be Earl | 15:02 |
| lcuk | :D | 15:02 |
| Termana | :D | 15:02 |
| Jaffa | Oh noes | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | is forum.meego.com -still- upgrading? | 15:02 |
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| w00t_ | Stskeeps: hopefully it'll never come back, bwahaha | 15:03 |
| Termana | Stskeeps, it was available earlier for me today | 15:03 |
| w00t_ | (but yes, I get an upgrading notice) | 15:03 |
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| Termana | (also now getting the notice) | 15:03 |
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| Jaffa | achipa: Good point: I'd thought about that "positions" comment but didn't want to appear to strengthen whatever position I'm supposed to have. | 15:10 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: well, i think the problem is also definition of community.. | 15:10 |
| Stskeeps | there's the people with commit/say and there's the people without | 15:10 |
| Tm_T | hi | 15:11 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Exactly. And people with admin rights to build systems or listed on a wiki page in a WG or team aren't the extent of the community | 15:11 |
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| Stskeeps | we define community as all the people surrounding meego the 'product' i guess? | 15:14 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: I guess | 15:18 |
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| CosmoHill | hey th0br0 | 15:29 |
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| CosmoHill | maybe I should have bill bailey on in the background | 15:47 |
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| CosmoHill | *shouldn't | 15:52 |
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| slaine | th0br0: you about ? | 16:07 |
| slaine | I've a spec file question | 16:07 |
| * CosmoHill knows a little about spec files | 16:07 | |
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| slaine | as do I, but I think this is covered by "advanced" :) | 16:07 |
| slaine | I'll ask anyway | 16:07 |
| slaine | I need to create an rpm for a Realtek network driver. This will provide an r8169.ko module, the default kernel one fails badly | 16:08 |
| slaine | How do you package it so that you don't end up with conflicts | 16:08 |
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| CosmoHill | if you where doing this by hand you'd want to remove the default one | 16:09 |
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| CosmoHill | hmm, I have that network card and that works fine in my server | 16:09 |
| CosmoHill | slaine: you can make it so that before it installs the module it removes the one that is already there | 16:09 |
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| slaine | that won't stop the conflict in the rpmdb | 16:11 |
| slaine | as far as rpm will be concerned, the kernel package provides/owns that file | 16:11 |
| CosmoHill | could you remove it from the first package that installs it | 16:11 |
| slaine | I need some way to say that this new rpm replaces the file | 16:11 |
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| saschi | hi | 16:12 |
| CosmoHill | i think I'll leave this to th0br0 :) | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | lo saschi | 16:12 |
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| CosmoHill | slaine: 00:09.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL-8169 Gigabit Ethernet (rev 10) | 16:14 |
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| slaine | CosmoHill: we've about 800 bedside units in a hospital that are netbooting, but they can lockup during a reboot due to the kernel driver | 16:16 |
| CosmoHill | :/ | 16:16 |
| slaine | the manufacturer provide a driver as well as work with the kernel net driver team. Both drivers are pretty different though. Kernel driver hangs, Realtek driver is perfect | 16:17 |
| lcuk | paging doctor slaine, doctor slaine, patient in ward b3 reporting kernel error, get to surgery stat | 16:17 |
| slaine | lol | 16:17 |
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| slaine | lcuk, it's usually "My TV has a black screen" | 16:18 |
| glinpus | afaik, rpm isn't going to let you do that | 16:18 |
| slaine | it's not | 16:18 |
| lcuk | god forbid any linux hackers are poorly in hospital | 16:18 |
| Stskeeps | no 'diverts'? | 16:18 |
| slaine | I think the best approach is to redo the kernel rpm so that it doesn't provide that module and then provide a realtek rpm that does | 16:18 |
| glinpus | aside from installing with --force | 16:19 |
| slaine | glinpus: dirty | 16:20 |
| glinpus | unless the module happens to sit in a different path than the kernel one | 16:20 |
| * CosmoHill grrs cos he can't figure how out to delete a ticket comment from trac | 16:22 | |
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| slaine | glinpus: good point | 16:25 |
| slaine | I could put it in the updates module directory | 16:25 |
| slaine | or could rename it to realtek-r8169.ko and have an alias | 16:25 |
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| kallam | slaine: you can also put orginal module to blacklist | 16:29 |
| slaine | that just stops it from loading surely, doesn't resolve the package management issue | 16:30 |
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| kallam | slaine: how about use different name and blacklist in same package. | 16:32 |
| slaine | that's the current plan | 16:33 |
| CosmoHill | could you not remove the orginal file form the kernel package? | 16:33 |
| CosmoHill | there's no point compiling it if you're going to replace it | 16:33 |
| slaine | CosmoHill: we'll probably do that longer term | 16:33 |
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| slaine | need to get an update out now | 16:33 |
| slaine | we need to streamline our kernel. it's a default fedora config at the moment | 16:33 |
| CosmoHill | btw how do you find out if you're using the default kernel or the realtek one? | 16:34 |
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| slaine | module has different version tags | 16:35 |
| CosmoHill | author: Realtek and the Linux r8169 crew <netdev@vger.kernel.org> | 16:36 |
| CosmoHill | i think i have the default one | 16:36 |
| CosmoHill | holy shit there is a window cleaner at my window | 16:36 |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, didnt your mum warn you about sitting around in your underpants | 16:37 |
| CosmoHill | underpants? | 16:37 |
| slaine | lol | 16:37 |
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| dneary | Jaffa, Ping? | 17:22 |
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| CosmoHill | hey DawnFoster | 17:23 |
| DawnFoster | hey CosmoHill | 17:23 |
| CosmoHill | I'm proof reading code | 17:25 |
| CosmoHill | / trying not to kill simon | 17:25 |
| dneary | Hi guys | 17:26 |
| dneary | How're things in Sunny Portland? | 17:26 |
| CosmoHill | erm, sunny? | 17:26 |
| * lbt works on an "ode to karma" | 17:27 | |
| CosmoHill | karma++ | 17:27 |
| dneary | CosmoHill, It's a zero sum game you know | 17:27 |
| dneary | Yyou just decremented someone else's karma | 17:27 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: mailing list creation and such, bugzilla lists.meego.com component or prod you directly (after morning tea)? | 17:28 |
| DawnFoster | yeah - give me a few to wake up, catch up on email & have some caffeine :) | 17:28 |
| Stskeeps | hehe, enjoy | 17:28 |
| * Stskeeps goes make himself a cup | 17:28 | |
| CosmoHill | Stskeeps: can I have one? | 17:29 |
| Stskeeps | if you pay shipping | 17:29 |
| dneary | Reading the very interesting http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2009/03/newspapers-and-thinking-the-unthinkable/ | 17:30 |
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| CosmoHill | it's a good thing I'm not at uni | 17:30 |
| CosmoHill | 1. Simon would be dead already | 17:30 |
| CosmoHill | 2. The network has just crashed there | 17:30 |
| CosmoHill | 3. It costs money to print | 17:30 |
| Stskeeps | heh | 17:30 |
| dneary | You know you Americans are always going on about how vital a piece of infrastructure CraigsList is to the fabric of society? | 17:30 |
| TSCHAK | newsweek went up for sal | 17:31 |
| TSCHAK | e | 17:31 |
| dneary | I have never used Craig's List. No-one I know has used CraigsList. | 17:31 |
| lbt | I have. | 17:31 |
| lbt | you know me | 17:31 |
| Jaffa | dneary: pong | 17:31 |
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| dneary | CraigsList might well be completely unknown outside North America | 17:31 |
| lbt | I wanted some skis .. it was an epic fail | 17:31 |
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| Jaffa | dneary: interesting URL | 17:32 |
| thiago | DawnFoster: hi | 17:32 |
| thiago | DawnFoster: I've just noticed meego planet | 17:33 |
| TSCHAK | Meet the new planet, not the same as the Old Planet | 17:33 |
| thiago | DawnFoster: what do you think of aggregating the Qt Labs blogs for category MeeGo? | 17:33 |
| lbt | +1 | 17:33 |
| DawnFoster | thiago - sure. Can you email me a direct feed for that category & I'll add it to the planet. | 17:34 |
| DawnFoster | (still waking up) :) | 17:34 |
| DawnFoster | that goes for anyone else with a meego feed that you want aggregated, too | 17:34 |
| DawnFoster | or drop them onto the planet wiki page | 17:34 |
| X-Fade | DawnFoster: http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/feeds.opml | 17:35 |
| CosmoHill | hey X-Fade | 17:35 |
| DawnFoster | X-Fade - in this case, we want MeeGo specific feeds, so wasn't planning to copy things over from Maemo. | 17:36 |
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| X-Fade | DawnFoster: Yeah, altough it might be good to walk over them and see the interesting ones. | 17:36 |
| X-Fade | So you can invite certain people. | 17:36 |
| DawnFoster | that would be an excellent project for an ambitious community member who wants to contribute to MeeGo :) | 17:37 |
| X-Fade | DawnFoster: You just started for this project, you should be full of energy :) | 17:38 |
| lbt | curl http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/feeds.opml | sed 's/maemo/meego/ig' | mail Dawn | 17:38 |
| lbt | and she's had tea | 17:38 |
| DawnFoster | we just ask that the feed we receive is specific to a category or tag for MeeGo and that the we check to make sure the person plans to continue contributing to MeeGo. | 17:38 |
| DawnFoster | still waiting for tea to cool :) | 17:38 |
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| DawnFoster | X-Fade - I'm slammed with metrics stuff this week and May release - if people wait for me to wade through the feeds, it's going to be a while :) | 17:39 |
| thiago | DawnFoster: I'm trying to create the MeeGo category now | 17:39 |
| thiago | there's a Maemo one | 17:39 |
| thiago | or we could aggregate the entire Qt Labs blog | 17:41 |
| dneary | http://radar.oreilly.com/2010/04/ed-20-the-importance-of-owners.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+oreilly%2Fradar%2Fatom+%28O%27Reilly+Radar%29&utm_content=Google+Reader | 17:41 |
| thiago | the Planet Maemo only aggregates what's on the Maemo category | 17:41 |
| dneary | esp. the "Do your feet hurt?" story | 17:41 |
| achipa | DawnFoster: http://achipa.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default/-/meego | 17:41 |
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| achipa | (though my posts are usually long and boring :P ) | 17:42 |
| dneary | thiago, How many posts a day in the Qt Labs blog? | 17:42 |
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| thiago | dneary: <1 on average | 17:42 |
| thiago | except days like today | 17:42 |
| dneary | thiago, Making the planet too noisy to start will make it less attractive (but 1 a day sounds doable ;) ) | 17:42 |
| DawnFoster | OK people, I'm not awake enough to add feeds to drupal - you need to email them to me or put them on the wiki :) | 17:42 |
| thiago | dneary: five today, because of the releases | 17:42 |
| thiago | but the last one was on April 29 | 17:43 |
| DawnFoster | guarantee that I'll lose the ones here in IM :) | 17:43 |
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| thiago | dneary: not all blogs will be related to MeeGo. For example, one of the posts today is about the Symbian smart installer release (apt/yum for Symbian) | 17:44 |
| thiago | dneary: or stuff about Mac and Windows | 17:44 |
| dneary | thiago, I don't mind a bit of variety | 17:44 |
| dneary | But my sweet point, from experience, is around 10 to 20 posts per day | 17:44 |
| dneary | More than that & I end up browsing headers & only reading 4 or 5 posts a day | 17:45 |
| dneary | Or en masse marking feeds read because I don't have time to browse 20+ posts. | 17:45 |
| thiago | I think our most active month didn't have more than 20 posts | 17:46 |
| dneary | I've become comfortable with incomplete information over the years - I know I won't see every important blog post, tweet, forum thread, email etc | 17:46 |
| lbt | I noticed that in planet maemo anything not on-topic was voted down (sometimes a little too harshly IMHO) | 17:48 |
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| CosmoHill | I don't know if I was meant to learn about segfaults and bus errors | 17:56 |
| CosmoHill | but I have :) | 17:56 |
| CosmoHill | It means I've either made a typo in my data file | 17:57 |
| CosmoHill | or something has gone wrong in the linked list | 17:57 |
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| Jaffa | dneary: MWKN to the rescue? | 17:58 |
| dneary | Jaffa, Indeed, I'm a regular reader | 17:59 |
| Jaffa | Right, guessing a URL of http://planet.meego.com/ didn't help. | 17:59 |
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| thiago | what image can we use as the MeeGo logo? | 18:05 |
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| lbt | th0br0: you mentioned rpmdevtools... seems woefully under-documented... ? | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | ohai lbt. uhm | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | :D | 18:24 |
| lbt | am I missing something? | 18:24 |
| lbt | hi :) | 18:24 |
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| th0br0 | no,it does indeed seem underdocumented | 18:25 |
| th0br0 | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora-rpmdevtools | 18:25 |
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| lbt | I was hunting down rpmlint | 18:27 |
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| CosmoHill | hey th0br0 | 18:29 |
| th0br0 | heya CosmoHill | 18:29 |
| CosmoHill | I'm speeding up my assignment by using two printers at once | 18:29 |
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| TSCHAKeee | lp0: printer on fire | 18:30 |
| TSCHAKeee | lp1: printer on fire | 18:30 |
| TSCHAKeee | :P | 18:30 |
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| lbt | TSCHAKeee: you have to work hard to get that nowadays! | 18:32 |
| TSCHAKeee | indeed | 18:32 |
| TSCHAKeee | hehehehe | 18:32 |
| TSCHAKeee | :) | 18:32 |
| CosmoHill | of course, it doesn't work when you print double sided and send the second half to the wrong printer | 18:33 |
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| lbt | th0br0: they're in meego already :) | 18:39 |
| lbt | http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/repo/source/ | 18:39 |
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| th0br0 | ah ok. didn't seem them yesterday | 18:39 |
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| * CosmoHill sees the "low on colour" light and glares at his printer | 18:42 | |
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| * lbt casually builds rpmlint from MeeGo trunk on maemo.org OBS | 18:46 | |
| Stskeeps | woo | 18:47 |
| th0br0 | :) | 18:48 |
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| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: tea taken it's effect by now? :) | 18:53 |
| DawnFoster | Mostly :) | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | mind if i give you a pm then? | 18:54 |
| DawnFoster | go for it | 18:54 |
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| DawnFoster | I'm working from home today, so I have real tea (not the kind in the little baggies at work) - gunpowder green | 18:55 |
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| TSCHAKeee | DawnFoster: very nice. :) I have some gyokuro and some really good genmaicha here :D | 18:56 |
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| thiago | lbt: so you create a .deb of rpmlint? :-) | 19:00 |
| lbt | nope... the maemo.org obs has meego trunk on it (kinda) | 19:00 |
| lbt | it would be the meego.org obs ... but we don't have meego.org | 19:00 |
| Jaffa | lbt: We could get it with a Unicode homoglyph ;-) | 19:02 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: re RSS feeds... you wouldn't yet... there wasn't any point until now :) | 19:02 |
| th0br0 | uh... using qt, if i want my layout to use the max size available, how to do that? | 19:02 |
| DawnFoster | lbt: aha - but I can't validate the feed without a post :) | 19:02 |
| lbt | Jaffa: I was going to register the top level domain .com^H^H^Horg | 19:02 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: OK | 19:02 |
| thiago | th0br0: check the methods in QWidget | 19:03 |
| thiago | th0br0: also, check #qt | 19:03 |
| th0br0 | thiago: true about #qt. but there is no direct designer way for doing that, right? | 19:03 |
| thiago | th0br0: from the UI designer? | 19:03 |
| th0br0 | well yes... like ... some setting or so | 19:04 |
| thiago | you really need to ask in #qt | 19:04 |
| * thiago doesn't do GUI | 19:04 | |
| th0br0 | ^^ ok. | 19:04 |
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| Kaadlajk | right-click the widget in designer and select layout | 19:04 |
| Jaffa | lbt: heh | 19:05 |
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| CosmoHill | slaine: I've printed off a lot | 19:52 |
| CosmoHill | and it's just code :/ | 19:52 |
| slaine | I hope you used very small pt size fonts :) | 19:53 |
| CosmoHill | portrait I get 77 lines of code per A4 | 19:53 |
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| * CosmoHill pokes slaine | 23:01 | |
| slaine | evening | 23:01 |
| CosmoHill | I still need todo my report | 23:01 |
| slaine | tsk | 23:01 |
| slaine | let me guess, you've been doing everything but | 23:01 |
| CosmoHill | I've finished my program | 23:01 |
| CosmoHill | made a class diagram | 23:01 |
| CosmoHill | printed the code off | 23:01 |
| CosmoHill | there's got to be at least 30 pages, doubled sided | 23:02 |
| slaine | yeah, you did that earlier | 23:02 |
| CosmoHill | I'm now doing my testing | 23:02 |
| arjan | hehe print the code and then test | 23:04 |
| arjan | that's gutsy | 23:04 |
| CosmoHill | I say testing... | 23:05 |
| CosmoHill | what I mean it making shit up that sounds realistic | 23:05 |
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| th0br0 | show us CosmoHill ;) | 23:07 |
| CosmoHill | I've basically tested the whole thing as I've been making it | 23:08 |
| CosmoHill | so any problems have been fixed | 23:08 |
| th0br0 | besides... shouldn'ti t be the other way 'round? first the class diagram and then the codez? | 23:08 |
| CosmoHill | sorta | 23:08 |
| th0br0 | and second to that, did you know that netbeans can generate the diagram for you from code? | 23:08 |
| th0br0 | I know that it can do that with java, IIRC with C++ too | 23:08 |
| CosmoHill | http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/mapclass2.png | 23:08 |
| CosmoHill | I didn't know that | 23:09 |
| CosmoHill | I used VS2010 to make the diagram from the coad | 23:09 |
| CosmoHill | code* | 23:09 |
| th0br0 | uh... k. I thought that was your diagram ;) | 23:09 |
| CosmoHill | (VS2010 pro) | 23:09 |
| CosmoHill | that's what I had before :) | 23:09 |
| th0br0 | ^^ | 23:09 |
| CosmoHill | I kinda want to show you guys what I have | 23:10 |
| CosmoHill | but I fear you'll say it's wrong and I'll kill you | 23:10 |
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| Stskeeps | heh, not going to have a easy time with code reviews in future then | 23:13 |
| frals | :D | 23:14 |
| th0br0 | Better us telling you that than your corrector. | 23:15 |
| th0br0 | How so, Stskeeps? | 23:15 |
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| Jaffa | Conference dates seem to have changed :-/ | 23:16 |
| CosmoHill | it's due in in 20 hours | 23:16 |
| Jaffa | http://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=MeeGo_Conference_2010&diff=prev&oldid=2103 | 23:17 |
| bfree | the aviva stadium! that will be an interesting venue! Guess I'll have to go after all :-p | 23:19 |
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| frals | Jaffa: thats good news, it no longer collides with my bday! ;) | 23:20 |
| Jaffa | frals: Excuse for a pissup, surely? | 23:22 |
| Jaffa | frals: Not sure we need one. | 23:23 |
| frals | :D | 23:23 |
| Jaffa | Last time I was in Dublin; Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams were at the table next to us in a restaurant/pub. | 23:23 |
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| lcuk | h/me gets CosmoHill coffee - you will do fine on your assignment | 23:49 |
| lcuk | right or wrong, its not through lack of effort | 23:49 |
| CosmoHill | thanks | 23:49 |
| CosmoHill | my code is the f**king tits :D | 23:49 |
| CosmoHill | it's the report I don't like :( | 23:49 |
| CosmoHill | or the feeling of light headidness | 23:50 |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, i refer you to an earlier tweet of mine: http://twitter.com/lcuk/status/13375973687 | 23:50 |
| CosmoHill | lol | 23:50 |
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| CosmoHill | oh shit > http://machall.com/view.php?date=2002-12-23 | 23:55 |
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| CosmoHill | I'm scared because that comic is so relative | 23:56 |
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