IRC log of #meego for Thursday, 2010-05-06

lcukok, and that rpmbuild is the central core function that all of OBS is built around?00:00
InformatiQlbt: has to be in a meego chroot00:00
lbtlcuk: kinda00:00
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lcukdoes it have protection against being run outside a chroot00:00
lbtobs is built around "a command"00:00
CosmoHillcrap, it"s eletrion day tomorrow00:00
lcukso OBS can be used to build .debs?00:00
lbtwhich can be rpmbuild or dpkg-buildpkg00:00
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lbtaround the outside of that command it creates a chroot00:01
lbtand it looks at your build-deps to decide what to put in the chroot00:01
lbtall of which is done using the "build" command00:01
lbtnow the OBS *service* runs the build command for you on a big compile farm00:02
lbtand (thiago_home are you listening) the OBS command "osc build" runs the self-same build command on your home machine00:02
lbtso the build-service and your home machine run the same code.... guaranteed00:02
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lbtand that chroot even contains the toolchain00:03
lbtyes?00:03
lcuksounds reasonable00:03
lcukbut how does it know to build that package for 5 different arches00:04
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lbtfor arch in arch1 arch2.... ; do osc build <arch>; done00:04
lcukwin/lin32/lin64/mac/armel etc00:04
lcukok00:04
lbtah, careful00:04
lcukso machines in the cluster wont be specifialised for arch00:04
lbtthey're OSes, not arches00:04
lcuktheres a difference?00:04
lbtwell, a mix actually00:05
lbtyes.00:05
lcuktargets00:05
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lbtyou can have debian lenny on 64/32/arm5/arm7/ppc/sparc....00:05
lcukyes but the same binary wont work in each00:05
lbtor ubuntu/fedora/win32 on each of the same arches00:06
lcukso targets is a better name but can encompas multiple flavours of silicon00:06
lbtyes00:06
lbtOBS has target+arch00:06
lbtso debian_lenny/i58600:06
lbtor meego_1.0/armv5el00:07
lcukok, so a general app which was being written to run anywhere - nothing special, "make all" should build generically00:07
lbtno00:07
lcukhello world in native c with simple defines for instance00:07
lbton windows make install goes to c:\some crappy\ path00:07
lcukwill every app have to explicitely specify its targets+archs?00:08
lcukahh ok understood00:08
lbtautotools solves that00:08
lbtfor sane systems00:08
lcukbut we havent got autotools00:08
lcukor so i heard00:08
lbtie all versions of linux that matter00:08
lbtMeego has00:08
lbtmeego is a strong autotools distro00:08
lcukwasnt timeless having trouble getting it working?00:08
lbtAFAIUI00:08
lbtheh...00:08
slaineI tried to follow the moblin guide on how to use 'build' to make native packages, but it never really worked out00:09
slainethat was mostly due to packaging issues00:09
lbtslaine: wait until we have an OBS... the SDK will fade into obscurity00:09
slainelbt, well, more thinking about me, on my local setup00:09
lcukthere will always be a need for bedroom coders to build natively without running through obs?00:09
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lbtlcuk: no00:10
* slaine is coding in his bedroom right now00:10
lbtsure, but that's like saying there's always a need to be able to code in asm00:10
* lcuk turns off slaine's light - its way past your bedtime and its a schoolnight00:10
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InformatiQlcuk: i agree to an extent00:11
lcuklbt - theres not a lot of need to code in it, but you can be damn sure it needs to be compilable00:11
InformatiQbut then the rpm tools are there00:11
lbtwell, for some situations... but 99.999999% of the time... not really. it's just machismo00:11
slainelcuk, kids are in bed, it's the only time I'll get today to do something productive (was in meetings all day, no coding :( )00:11
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InformatiQget a meego image use rpmbuild00:11
InformatiQrun it in kvm00:11
InformatiQbuild inside00:11
lcukkvm?00:12
slaineInformatiQ: that unfortunately doesn't work00:12
InformatiQslaine: why not?00:12
slaineI tried exactly that for rebuilding the moblin source rpms00:12
lcukarent virtual machines and systems within systems slower in general?00:12
slaineInformatiQ: Poor packaging00:12
InformatiQslaine: that was which ver of moblin?00:12
lbtlcuk: do you overclock to get the extra 4%?00:12
slaine2.0 and 2.100:13
slainelbt: he runs gentoo also :)00:13
InformatiQslaine: do u remember what sort of issues?00:13
lcuklbt was always hard work cross compiling maemo apps within scratchbox within vmware00:13
lcukon windows00:13
slaineit's all in the mail archive00:13
lbtlcuk: I was going to say "then you won't notice the virtual machine slowdown"00:13
lcukthat was what led me towards native building and speedups00:13
lbtbut for that...00:13
InformatiQwell, i'll give it a try defenitely this week00:14
lbtbut even so... you lose more time than you save00:14
slaineI was promised it would be sorted for moblin 2.200:14
lcuklbt, sure within vmware native compiling ubuntu apps within the VM were reasonable00:14
InformatiQbut if it can be built in obs (which would create a chroot of meego rpms) then it should work in kvm image00:14
lcukand i didnt for my small light apps00:14
lcukbut thats historical00:14
InformatiQwell meego is even better than 2.200:14
InformatiQ:)00:14
InformatiQit has the best of both worlds00:15
slaineInformatiQ: that was the theory. I setup the build as per the instructions on the site and it still failed on those packages00:15
slaineI was told the packaging had been fixed for 2.2, but, as you said, 2.2 got delaye/reworked into meego 1.000:15
InformatiQi would expect this issue to have been fixed00:16
slainethe reason I was rebuilding everything was to have a generic x86 version of moblin that would run on non-ssse3 x86 cpu's00:16
lcukAND IT WOULD ALSO RUN ON ONES WITH SSSE3 TOO00:17
lcuk-caps00:17
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lcukjust a bit less optimal00:17
lbtlcuk: PLEASE USE CAPS WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE SSSE3 CLUSTERFCKUP00:17
lcukOK00:18
lbtthat's just intel being bloodyminded if you ask me :)00:18
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lcukindeed - especially considering excuse being graphics speedups - the lower spec machines are normally lower resolution thereby negating the boost00:19
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slaineI've been tempted to ask for some metrics that proved ssse3 improved real world performance on typical netbook hardware.00:23
thiago_homewell, start by not using the 8087 FP instructions00:24
thiago_homethat's a complete ABI change though00:24
slaineWith all the repackaged versions of Moblin UI for  fedora spins, ubuntu, opensuse, mandrake etc. you can run the Moblin UX on all sorts of hardware00:25
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slaineand it's usable00:25
lcukthiago_home, as lbt said, asm isnt routinely used now and people have obviously rebuilt the stack to systems without it00:26
lcukas slaine says00:26
* slaine manages about 17000 machines that are either Via 1Ghz CLE266 boxes or Intel ULV Celeron with 855GM)00:26
thiago_homeso if we switch PR1.2 to -mfloat-abi=hard, no one will care?00:26
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lcukthiago_home, inverse: i would jump at the chance to run through all of maemo through the n8x0 spec builders00:28
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thiago_homeso have separate builds?00:28
thiago_homeor run OMAP2-optimised software on the N900?00:28
lcuki do00:28
thiago_homesorry, let me rephrase00:29
thiago_homewhich one are you proposing?00:29
lcukits reasonably recently i upgraded my scratchbox to fremantle00:29
lcuki used diablo for all my compiling00:29
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lcuknever noticed a difference00:29
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lcukapps work the same in general00:29
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thiago_homeI don't know of any differences between OMAP2 and 3, though00:30
thiago_homewe're not using hard FP ABI anyway00:30
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lcuki fail to understand why there is so much emphasis on atom specifics when intels primary concern for the last 30 years has been backwards compatability with the x86 chip00:31
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lbt$$00:31
lcukyeah but all that silicon and all those developers00:32
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lcuksure, people will continue to buy new machines00:32
CosmoHillgrr, damn mouth00:32
CosmoHillmouce*00:32
thiago_homethe Atom is a different architecture00:32
thiago_homeyes, x86, but different from the rest00:32
CosmoHillit's special!00:33
slaineiirc, Phoronix ran some tests against Moblin 2.1 Vs Ubuntu and ubuntu came out on tope for most things00:33
slaineso the sse3 compile flag wasn't doing that much00:34
CosmoHillslaine: did you see this weeks Windows 7 vs Ubuntu 10.04 tests?00:34
slaineyeah, only thing that surprised me was that ubuntu performed as well as it did against windows00:35
CosmoHillreally?00:35
lcukthiago_home, wouldnt you like to run meego on your desktop instead of other things00:35
slainethey where game tests, and windows does games well00:35
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thiago_homelcuk: actually, no00:35
thiago_homeI'm not the target audience of meego00:36
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slaineI'm interested in the other tests which show system performance better, filesystem, process management etc.00:36
thiago_homeanyway, SSSE3 isn't going to get used by the compiler in most applications00:36
thiago_homethe one thing that matters is SSE2 for floating point00:37
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lcukslaine, so that includes everything from pentium4 upwards?00:37
lcukthiago_home, sorry00:37
lbtagreed. having ssse3 is just enought to make sure meego won't run (or build) on non-intel hardware00:38
CosmoHillP4 northwood?00:38
slaineyes00:38
CosmoHillwhy don't we want meego on AMD?00:38
tremnite all, sweet dreams00:38
slainewe doe00:38
CosmoHillcyas trem00:38
slainedo00:38
slaineIntel don't00:38
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w00t_so, no handset ux for 1.000:39
w00t_am I the only one feeling a bit disappointed by that?00:39
lbtactually the PITA isn't running MeeGo on AMD00:39
lbtit's that you can't develop for an Intel Atom device on an AMD desktop00:39
w00t_"wait for day one", "wait for 1.0 in may", "wait for it coming Real Soon(tm)" is starting to show a bit of a pattern00:39
CosmoHillhehe bbc made a bobo00:39
CosmoHillyou could hear the editor doing the count down in the background to the start and end of the news00:40
thiago_homelcuk: x86-to-x86 cross compiler00:40
javispedrouh?00:40
thiago_homewhat I said00:40
javispedrohas x86 started diverging so much that different subarches now have their own compiler versions?00:40
CosmoHillah this is true, intel and AMD are different00:40
thiago_homebesides, the toolchain doesn't need to be compiled with SSSE300:40
lbtthiago_home: you need more... the chroot needed to run mic2 needs to be non-ssse300:41
CosmoHillbut only if you use flags to compile it for one processor00:41
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slainew00t_: yes, it's a tad disappointing. I'd imagine we'll see a whole raft of stuff come online between 1.0 and 1.100:41
thiago_homeif it can run on Windows and Mac, why can't it run on older x86?00:41
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thiago_homeagain the distinction between application SDK and platform SDK I guess00:42
w00t_slaine: *nod*00:42
lbtthiago_home: yes00:42
thiago_homethe application SDK should pretty much run anywhere00:42
* javispedro envisions application SDK requiring SSSE3 ;)00:42
thiago_homethe platform SDK is for geeks like us00:42
lbtbut you can't make an image to put on your device.00:42
slainejavispedro: For x86, it probalby will00:42
w00t_slaine: it's just a bit frustrating having things held up is all, I'm looking forward to playing with it :)00:42
slainearen't we all :)00:42
javispedrothank god I can rebuild it then :)00:43
vgradeThe relase has been branched and is being matured now (qgil, 19:50:30), its available now00:43
thiago_homeI really don't understand what the big deal is. I don't see anyone complaining about Neon requirement. (aside from those who want to run on N800/N810)00:43
thiago_homeand Neon will never be supported on x8600:44
thiago_homeit's ARM00:44
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CosmoHillNeon?00:44
thiago_homeif we can run a completely different arch, why can't we run a slightly different one?00:44
javispedrothiago: exactly. they are complaining!00:44
CosmoHillnate@blue[1014]:~ $ rpm -q neon00:44
CosmoHillneon-0.28.2-2.i68600:44
CosmoHillthat program?00:44
thiago_homeno, ARM Neon00:44
CosmoHillmy mistake00:44
thiago_homehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Advanced_SIMD_.28NEON.2900:44
lbtthiago_home: because, AFAIK there's no quemu for ssse3 on non-sssse3 devices00:45
thiago_homelbt: technical issue that can be solved00:45
thiago_homeagain, if we can emulate a completely different arch, why not one that is only slightly different?00:45
lbtoh, I agree00:45
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lbtI was asking about it months ago...00:46
lbtzero interest.00:46
lbtwhen MeeGo goes bigger then more devs will hit it when they try to make images00:46
thiago_homemaybe00:46
lbtheck, I think the community OBS uses AMD cpus... that'll be interesting00:47
thiago_homebut my opinion is that, for a distro targetting low-powered processors, we should be squeezing the most out of performance00:47
javispedrothiago: agreed with that. now, development tools, on the other side...00:47
thiago_homejavispedro: application SDK vs platform SDK.00:47
lbtthat's not the point... the point is that there's no mechanism for non-Intel desktop owners to engage00:48
thiago_homethe application SDK has to run pretty much everywhere.00:48
thiago_homeI've been telling so to everyone who wants to listen.00:48
javispedrothiago: both are development tools; why I'd need to create platform images from the target device?00:48
thiago_homethe platform SDK is a nother matter. Especially for bootstrapping and creating images, and make world.00:48
javispedroplatform SDK also needs to run everywhere.00:48
w00t_(evening, thiago_home + lbt and others)00:48
lbt:)00:49
slainethiago_home: one of the biggest headaches in moblin, as a community member, was the almost daily questions of "can I run moblin on this ?....Why not, it's intel .....That sucks"00:49
thiago_homeanyway, we should optimise the most. And I don't think we should compromise there because some people can't run the software natively *and* there's a clear technical solution (improve qemu)00:49
* javispedro is confused and attacks himself.00:49
thiago_homeotherwise someone is going to come and say we can't have atomic instructions on x86 because someone is still using a 38600:50
thiago_home(moot point, of course, Qt doesn't run on 386)00:50
w00t_thiago_home: it doesn't? we must fix this!00:50
microlithso therefore AMD users should upgrade?00:50
thiago_homew00t_: it requires at least one 486 instructin00:51
thiago_homemicrolith: no, they should fix qemu00:51
w00t_I'm just kidding, don't let me sidetrack the conversation00:51
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javispedrothiago: nobody is going to emulate its compiler; we've been through this already (scratchbox)00:52
thiago_homeI'm not talking about emulating compilers00:52
thiago_homecompilers have to be compiled for all major archs00:52
javispedrothen why you mention platform SDK vs application SDK? both should be native.00:52
thiago_homethey have to be compiled for Windows and Mac too00:52
javispedroboth should generate non-native binaries.00:52
thiago_homeapplication SDK = cross-compiler only00:52
thiago_homeplatform SDK = cross-compiler and a lot more helper tools00:53
* javispedro fails to see it any difference between this and the classic decade old cross compiling environment00:53
javispedrothiago: ah well.00:53
thiago_homethe image-creation tool doesn't need to be in the app SDK00:53
thiago_home"You want to create a MeeGo-based device and launch it in the market? You can certainly invest in a couple of good machines running Linux"00:54
thiago_home(I'm not saying good == Intel)00:55
thiago_homeas opposed to "You want to make some apps for MeeGo? You can use your existing laptop, running whatever environment you have already"00:55
lcukyou just stopped practically every single bedroom coder in one step00:56
javispedroyet another barrier for serious development.00:56
thiago_homeI don't follow00:56
w00t_me neither00:56
lcukthats *worse* than the entry level required for maemo00:56
lcukhaving to change machines00:56
w00t_thiago's point is that a cross compiler lowers the barrier to entry00:56
thiago_homeentry level required for maemo = Debian-based 32-bit Linux machine00:56
thiago_homeentry level I am requesting = machine00:57
lcukno its windows00:57
javispedroactually, machine capable of virtualization :)00:57
thiago_homeI didn't say it had to virtualise00:57
w00t_that's still a lot more hassle than most people are willing to go through00:57
lcukthats the level but if they currently code apps for a platform now00:57
thiago_homeif it can run a cross-compiler and you have a USB port, it should be enough00:57
lcukfor them to start coding for meego00:57
thiago_homeheck, the SDK works without USB ports00:57
microliththiago_home: for "app" development,r giht?00:58
thiago_homeyou can deploy via ssh over wifi and do remote debugging00:58
microlithright*00:58
thiago_homemicrolith: yes, app SDK00:58
microlithnow who said that -I- want to only do app development?00:58
w00t_if you don't want to do app development, don't use the app SDK00:58
thiago_homethen use the platform SDK00:58
w00t_nobody is forcing you to00:58
thiago_homeabove I was showing extremes00:58
MiskaXi have to say that visual studio is still winner when it comes to remote debugging...00:58
javispedroI'm not saying that a simpler more portable "madde" is worse; I am saying that this is no excuse for adding more complexity to the platform SDK (scratchbox, etc.) (requiring SSSE3 -- yuck :) )00:58
w00t_different alternatives for different people00:59
thiago_homeright *now* you have to have SSSE300:59
thiago_homewhat I don't want is for the devices to have to settle for less because *you* don't have SSSE300:59
thiago_homethere are other solutions, including improving qemu00:59
w00t_I'm in two minds really00:59
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lcukimprovements to qemu should be done anyway01:00
lcuk/are being done01:00
slainewhy should ssse3 matter for the core os though, that's what I don't get01:00
w00t_hardware (especially in some places) is not readily available, and it's one thing to say "fix qemu" and it's another to expect (potentially hobbyist) developers to do it01:00
lcukw00t_, OSS apps get tidied up01:00
thiago_homeslaine: suppose there is a 5% gain. Should we do it?01:00
w00t_lcuk: i'm not denying they don't01:00
slainethiago_home: quantify that with some tests please01:00
w00t_lcuk: but you're barking in the wrong place, really01:00
thiago_homeslaine: not when I say "suppose"01:00
javispedrosupposeeee01:00
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slaineI'm seeing figures banded about that people pull out of their you know whats, no data01:01
thiago_homeI'm not saying there is01:01
w00t_lcuk: if a new developer comes along and can't use this, and you say to him "fix qemu and then you can", there is a serious risk they'll wander off and find something else to spend his time on01:01
thiago_homeI'm asking a hypothetical question01:01
w00t_s/his/their/01:01
infobotw00t_ meant: lcuk: if a new developer comes along and can't use ttheir, and you say to him "fix qemu and then you can", there is a serious risk they'll wander off and find something else to spend his time on01:01
thiago_homesuppose someone did the benchmarks and calculated there's a 5% gain01:01
thiago_homeshould we do it?01:01
slainesorry, issed the suppose01:01
slainemissed01:01
* lbt notes that *right now* you can't develop without an ssse3 desktop.01:01
lcukyeah w00t_01:01
lbtand *right now* there are no shipping devices01:02
MiskaXbtw, when it comes to simd instruction usage and such, any proper app dynamically selects generic or optimized code variant based on cpu capabilities01:02
lbtso *right now* there's no performance benefit to sss301:02
lbtand a huge barrier to engagement01:02
lcukthiago_home, currently i am aware of a quantifiable build of libjpeg that has been improved by use of NEON - but that does not mean that libjpeg was useless before01:02
javispedroMiskaX: not very liked on a mobile distro.01:02
thiago_homeMiskaX: multimedia apps do01:02
lbtsince *right now* there is no app development for meego01:02
thiago_homeJPEG is a case where the GPU should be used01:02
MiskaXthiago_home: yep, like my code01:02
lcukand is where practical01:02
MiskaXjavispedro: i don't see any reason to avoid that on mobile either01:03
lcukbut that doesnt mean you should rebuild the entire OS because of it01:03
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slaineI'd love to base our products on a MeeGo foundation, I can't if there's an x86 ssse3 requirement, and I wouldn't be using the UX as it stands.01:03
MiskaXall those code paths should be handwritten assembly anyway and pretty tiny amount of the total code01:03
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lcukwith ifdefs to take care of the cases where its not01:03
thiago_homeslaine: that's a complete different take on the subject, though01:03
slainethat's always been my take01:04
thiago_homeslaine: you're saying "I want to ship products on something that is not Atom or ARM OMAP3"01:04
slaineyes01:04
thiago_homeright now, and until the direction changes, Atom and OMAP3 are the base configs01:04
* javispedro envisions MeeGo SDK with MEEGO_X86, MEEGO_X86_SSE3 and MEEGO_X86_ARMEL targets, and much like the current maemo sdk, with the shipped qemu incapable of emulating the latter two ones.01:04
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slaineI'll still try once 1.0 is out and I get all the source rpms01:04
javispedro*SSSE301:04
thiago_homejavispedro: that's probably easy to do01:04
MiskaXunfortunately arm is a bit lacking on cpu capability detection front, my atomic ops detection code is a bit ugly atm01:05
slainehopefully the packaging issues have been expunged01:05
thiago_homehand-written assembly should be selectable. The rest is a flag to the compiler.01:05
thiago_homeyou don't detect the CPU in ARM01:05
lcukdoes anybody know, would the "normal" middle of the road Pentium M without ssse3 be generally faster than the high spec atoms?01:05
thiago_homeyou *know* what processor you put in your device.01:05
javispedrothiago++01:05
slainelcuk: HELL YES01:05
lcukso isnt the speedup point entirely moot anyway?01:05
slainecompletely01:06
thiago_homelcuk: speed? yes01:06
thiago_homelcuk: power consumption, not by a long shot01:06
javispedrowell, if the atom is slow, you try to get the best out of it.01:06
MiskaXthiago_home: that's not portable code... ;)01:06
javispedroso I understand the need for ssse3 if it does anything tangible.01:06
thiago_homethe calculation is speed by watt consumed01:06
thiago_homeMiskaX: ARM doesn't care about portable code. Or hasn't until now.01:06
lcukthiago_home, my intel Pentium M based 12" touchscreen tablet works really well01:06
javispedroMiskaX: we're not necessarily talking about a single hotspot written in ASM. Think entire programs build for different FP architectures.01:07
lcuki even run it at 600mhz powersave mode :D01:07
MiskaXthiago_home: just as an example, try to build binary which runs optimally on OMAP2 _and_ OMAP301:07
thiago_homeMiskaX: what's your point, that it's very hard?01:07
lcukMiskaX, i barely noticed the difference01:07
slainelcuk, We've the same cpu's in our gear01:07
lcuki just build with -O2 and didnt upgrade scratchbox from diablo for ages01:08
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javispedrolcuk: then don't upgrade cause the fremantle compiler is slight slower :)01:08
javispedro*slightly01:08
MiskaXlcuk: the difference is quite huge in certain cases01:08
lcuktoo late i needed to01:08
MiskaXjavispedro: vtables for high level functions built for two fp archs01:08
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javispedroMiskaX: WHAT?01:09
javispedroand call that optimized?01:09
MiskaXi'm doing that already on my dsp library for x8601:09
javispedroyou expect to do that manually for every application in existence?01:09
MiskaXsse2, sse3, e3dnow, etc.01:09
lcukare most of us in agreement then that for most cases theres no real technical reason to require ssse3 ?01:09
thiago_homein most cases there isn't01:09
lcukMiskaX, is special01:10
thiago_homeat least, looking at the SSSE3 instructions, I can't understand why01:10
lcukbut he doesnt have to build entire OS01:10
MiskaXjavispedro: no, i use c++ capabilities for that ;)01:10
thiago_homenothing groundbreaking there01:10
lbtand currently the only thing ssse3 does is stop people from developing for meego?01:10
thiago_homeI've seen gcc use SSE on its own, but no clue what level it was01:10
thiago_homethe one ABI issue I've seen is the FP one01:11
thiago_homebut that doesn't require SSSE3 AFAIK01:11
lcukand thats entirely reasonable thiago_home01:11
slainewell, supposedly, ssse3 offers a large performance improvement in FP code over sse201:11
lcukits been proven since early days that FP improvements work well01:11
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thiago_homeespecially in graphics01:11
slainebut the majority of the system isn't being held back by FP performance01:11
lcukslaine, but we arent saying FP is going to be emulated etc01:11
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MiskaXall compilers are still bad on optimizing things like iir biquad code01:12
thiago_homea few % makes a the difference between 30fps and 60fps01:12
lcukof course01:12
slainethat's 100% surely01:12
thiago_homeif you miss the 60fps mark, you have to settle for 30 to avoid tearing01:12
lcuksurely not!01:12
slainehow does that affect my mke2fs program though ?01:13
lcukif you can transfer the data in <1/60th of a second01:13
lcuktearing is a completely different problem01:13
lcukCOMPLETELY01:13
thiago_homelcuk: if you can't calculate and draw your frame in 16 ms, you've lost01:13
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thiago_homethen you might as well take 3301:13
slainelook, we're not talking about writing games01:13
thiago_homenor am I01:13
javispedrowhat?01:13
thiago_homeI'm talking about UIs01:14
thiago_homescrolling, for example01:14
javispedroall is about games!01:14
javispedrowhat does the iphone has -- games.01:14
lcukthiago_home, i know all about fluid uis01:14
thiago_homeI'm pretty sure you do scrolling01:14
w00t_scrolling is *important*.01:14
CosmoHillAH AH Ah dead leg01:14
MiskaXjust separate class implementations into different source files, use virtual base class and use a runtime-detection factory method to construct the correct specialiced instance01:14
javispedrowhat do people want to do with their underpowered netbooks -- games.01:14
w00t_it makes the difference between a beautiful UI experience and a trainwreck01:14
lcukif tearing is a framerate issue, 60fps would be MORE susceptable than 3001:15
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MiskaX...different source files can be built with different options...01:15
thiago_homelcuk: my point is that 58 fps has tearing01:15
lcuktearing is refreshing the screen itself with some of the old and some of the new01:15
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thiago_homeyes, 60fps is more susceptible01:15
lcuktearing is because you havent transfered all the data across01:15
slainethis is all theory though of course. the fact is that clutter et al work incredibly well on pretty old and underpowered systems so long as the hardware accelerated rendering works01:15
thiago_homeall the more reason to gain even 1% everywhere01:15
lcukthe tearing is 100% system transfer bus speed01:15
lcukand also whether theres buffers on the lcd side01:16
lcukyou can have tearing on a 1fps system01:16
thiago_homebut no one wants a 1fps system01:16
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thiago_homeI think the Nexus One feels horrible at 15 fps01:16
javispedrotearing eink-based ebook readers!! ohnoes!!01:16
lcukbut you asserted if you cannot have 60fps you have to drop to 3001:16
lcukthats silly01:16
thiago_homelcuk: yes. But the point is that we want 60 fps.01:17
lcukjavispedro, shush i actually considered how to render to those once :p01:17
lcukof course thiago_home01:17
thiago_homeand to have 60fps, we need to get all the optimisations we can get01:17
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thiago_homein graphics, were FP performance does matter.01:17
lcukbut even the highest spec graphics cards pumping out the highest visuals drop under 60fps sometimes01:17
thiago_homeyes they do01:17
javispedroand clearly, the ability to "take two registers, concatenate their values, and pull out a register-length section from an offset given by an immediate value encoded in the instruction" is going to help us reach the 60fps mark.01:17
thiago_homebut it shouldn't be because your graphics backend is slow01:18
thiago_homeit should be because the CPU is busy doing something important01:18
lcukhow freeedrich| quently depends on how optimized the graphics drivers are01:18
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lcukif ssse3 makes such a difference to those then they will be built with it anyway - we are expecting blobs to be from there01:18
lcukanyway01:18
MiskaXlcuk: i would compare this with audio playback. you can make audio software which never has dropouts. if you cannot keep up with audio frame rate, you have broken audio. same goes for certain graphics too01:18
MiskaXrealtime systems - my turf...01:19
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lcukMiskaX, sure i see graphical glitches every single day01:19
javispedrohey, at least PSHUFB is useful.01:19
* javispedro has at least once wished for it.01:19
thiago_homeanyway, to summarise what I am saying: there are solutions to allowing people to develop without having a Core2 that don't imply reducing the optimisation on devices01:20
MiskaXif you car's abs breaks decided to hang for a second you can have a fatal crash01:20
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MiskaXlcuk: that's called bad software01:20
lcukMiskaX, sometimes caused by hardware01:20
MiskaXthat's bad hadrware design then01:20
lcukand long historical pipelines01:20
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MiskaXrunning deterministic software on deterministic hardware is deterministic system01:21
lcuk?01:21
MiskaXit's pretty rare that even a cheap DVD player would not keep up with DVD framerate for the entire length of a movies01:22
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lcuksure - because they purchased a single use chip that was designed to do that01:22
MiskaXthat's usually a CPU+GPU+software. i used to work on set-top-boxes...01:23
lcukbut if i buy a dvd drive and plug it into my computer with software it can only do the best it can01:23
MiskaX(recording DVB-boxes)01:23
lcukand all the media players include support for dropping frames and other things01:23
lcukits like gaming: you have options to control quality settings01:23
MiskaXthat's why pc gaming is failing :)01:24
* javispedro ponders what happened to the "why are development tools built for ssse3" story.01:24
lcuki can happily run the same games on a low spec graphics card as a high spec one01:24
w00t_javispedro: welcome to IRC, enjoy your stay01:24
lcuki just turn the resolution down and tweak the polygon count01:24
MiskaXor you buy xbox360 and have exactly pre-defined experience without any adjustments01:25
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javispedroactually, nobody can do a thing about it so let's just forget about it hoping that amd grabs ssse3 before the meego judgement day01:25
MiskaXsince i've been doing audio software for ages, i find it so funny that graphics people find it hard to keep up with performance spec.01:26
lcukor someone sets up a build server to drag in and redo things as the moblin remixes have shown is possible01:26
MiskaXi can do several hour long recording over and over again without glitches :)01:26
lcukaudio consists of maximum 5 pixels01:26
lcuk;)01:26
javispedrolcuk: indeed. hopefully one of the benefits of meego -- that you can redo it easily.01:27
MiskaXwell, 64 channels, 192 khz, 32-bit01:27
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lcukjesus audio is 32bit now?01:27
MiskaXthat's 46.8 MB/s + all the heavy DSP processing in realtime for that01:27
MiskaXjust for practical reasons, 24-bit samples are carried in 32-bit words (dma alignment on bus)01:28
lcukcan people tell the difference between 16 and 24/32 bit?01:28
MiskaXi can pump up the cpu load to constant 80% and no glitches01:29
lcukleaving 20% for the graphics \@/01:29
lcukyou bastard :p01:29
MiskaXsure, especially if you put some 40 dB digital gain01:29
thiago_homethe difference between 16- and 24-bit samples is the noise level01:29
thiago_homeif you're doing audio work, each operation adds to the noise01:30
thiago_homethe extra 8 bits mean the end result has less noise than otherwise01:30
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lcuknod, that does sound reasonable01:31
MiskaXnormalized mixing of two channels ((c1 + c2) >> 1) - 1 bit lost already01:31
thiago_homeor 3dB increase in noise01:31
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MiskaXanyway, i fully agree about optimization and fps, but i still tend to think that for most part code can autoselect hardware dependent optimization paths, either by autoselecting .so on-fly or by doing similar inline01:33
MiskaXand helloworld doesn't have to require simd ;)01:34
thiago_homeMiskaX: it does01:34
MiskaXfor rest of the performance, it's about correctly utilizing kernel scheduler01:35
MiskaXEDF scheduling for graphics and audio, anyone? ;)01:35
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thiago_homehttp://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qstring.cpp#line372201:36
thiago_homethis has nothing to do with graphics or audio01:36
thiago_homebut uses SIMD anyway01:36
MiskaXsure, but specifically those can autoselect01:36
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lcukthiago_home, i *do* like optimisations like that01:37
javispedrothe extra indirection would probably cost more performance that the benefit of doing it with sse201:37
lcukusing hardware available when its built makes total sense01:37
thiago_homeMiskaX: those aren't auto-selected01:37
MiskaXhave two qstring class builds, simd and non-simd and autoconstruct correct one01:37
thiago_homeif you compile with SSE2, you get those01:37
thiago_homeotherwise, you don't01:37
thiago_homesame for the NEON version of the inverse operation (http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qstring.cpp#line3494)01:38
thiago_homebtw, gcc uses the same intrinsincs on its own code if you let it01:38
lcukare there any similar optimisations built in for the ssse bit01:38
MiskaXthiago_home: it could be...01:38
* lcuk tried inlining asm into the blitter on liqbase but always failed to get the compiler to accept them01:39
javispedrothiago: you mean gcc's neon autovectorizer works with that loop?01:39
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MiskaXin the past i used to have similar thing, but then there was the trouble that x86 linux distros wanted to build for lowest supported hardware01:39
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MiskaXthat's why things are autodetected these days01:40
thiago_homejavispedro: I haven't seen SIMD in ARM code by gcc yet, but I have in x8601:40
javispedroMiskaX: not completely true.01:40
javispedrolet's say there are three ways to do it:01:40
thiago_homemostly due to loop unrolling01:40
javispedro1. common denominator (386)01:40
thiago_home-ftree-vector01:40
javispedro2. common denominator for most apps, ship all specifics versions for certain apps (kernel, glibc, mplayer...)01:40
javispedro3. specific version for all apps (gentoo, ... )01:41
thiago_homethe graphics code does detect SSE2 and disables itself if not present. In fact, it auto-selects other variants.01:41
lcukim going anyway, its been an informative evening, gnite thiago_home javispedro lbt #meego \o01:41
thiago_homeit was judged to be to complex for QString though01:41
javispedroall modern distros are doing (2)01:41
javispedrognite lcuk01:41
lcukw00t_, slaine MiskaX \o01:42
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w00t_nite lcuk01:42
javispedroand both maemo and meego do (3)01:42
javispedrocause they know the target hardware.01:42
MiskaXthiago_home: for example, look at http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/trunk/jack/libjack/port.c:jack_port_set_funcs()01:42
thiago_homeMiskaX: no doubt01:43
thiago_homeI've seen vlc do some evil things too01:43
thiago_homeCPU detection via SIGILL :-)01:43
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MiskaXthiago_home: this is what i wrote for jack and i don't consider it evil: http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/trunk/jack/libjack/simd.c01:44
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MiskaXthere's the detection code at the beginning01:45
MiskaXunfortunately for ARM there's no such nice way available01:46
ShadowJK30 vs 60 fps.. do you mean that at 58 you'd get the occasional duplicate frame, which would make scrollong look jerky? Tearing is when screen displays parts of several different frames simultaneously, and can be avoided as long as cpu can memcpy() a frame fast enough, or, you know, double buffering..01:46
thiago_homeMiskaX: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/qsimd.cpp01:47
thiago_homeI meant http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qsimd.cpp01:47
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MiskaXthiago_home: yep, seems to be same thing01:47
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MiskaXthiago_home: so for qstring you would construct internal private class instance out of various specialiced ones based on cached cpu detection instead of the funny ifdef01:48
thiago_homethere aren't many ways to flip bits in the same registers01:48
thiago_homenot really possible with C++01:48
thiago_homeQString isn't a virtual class01:48
MiskaXit could utilize vtables initialized at load time01:49
thiago_homeno vtables. It's not a virtual class.01:49
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MiskaXthiago_home: doesn't matter...01:50
thiago_homeI need to go to bed now01:50
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MiskaXsame here, almost 2am..01:50
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MiskaXreally good example of funky vtable is the arm kernel-provided atomic ops01:52
MiskaXautomagically hardware specific without app knowing anything about it01:53
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ShadowJKMPlayer's fast scaler on N8x0 constructs the code in ram at scaler init time, in order to avoid indirection and extra branches ;p01:55
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slaineand I'm spent01:55
slainecatch you all tomorrow01:55
w00t_nite slaine01:56
slainenite01:56
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Termanagood morning05:10
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Stskeepsmorning07:02
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TermanaStskeeps, good morning07:15
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* Stskeeps ponders to jump back to bed07:29
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TSCHAKeeeStskeeps: so have you ported MeeGo to Mer, yet?07:42
* TSCHAKeee runs!!!07:42
TSCHAKeee:)07:42
* TSCHAKeee laughs maniacally07:43
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TheAngelhi, i was wondering if there is any tutorial on howto install meego on the n900?07:44
TSCHAKeeeTheAngel: instructions on the meego wiki07:44
TSCHAKeeeTheAngel: but since you're asking that question07:44
TSCHAKeeeTheAngel: the current build is not for you07:44
TheAngel:(07:44
TSCHAKeeeTheAngel: there is no UI07:44
TheAngel:o07:45
TSCHAKeeeit is a build that was done to check the cohesion of the low level parts of the stack07:45
TSCHAKeeeof course07:45
TSCHAKeeeyou would know this07:45
TSCHAKeeeif you read07:45
TSCHAKeeegoogle07:45
TSCHAKeeethe forums07:45
TSCHAKeeeblogs07:45
TSCHAKeeeany of those07:45
TSCHAKeeefor more than 5 minutes07:45
TSCHAKeee:)07:45
TermanaTSCHAKeee, ported MeeGo to Mer? what are you talking about? :P07:46
TSCHAKeeeTermana: joke07:46
TSCHAKeee;)07:46
TermanaAlso, normal people put sentences on a single line :nod: hehe :P07:46
TSCHAKeeeTermana: I went07:46
TSCHAKeeeto the07:46
TSCHAKeeeMiguel de Icaza07:46
TSCHAKeeeschool of IRC07:46
TSCHAKeee;)07:46
Termana:D07:46
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TSCHAKeeeor william shatner... take your pick07:47
TSCHAKeee:)07:47
Termana:P07:48
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TermanaStskeeps, ping (when you get out of bed)07:48
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TermanaTSCHAKeee, I think you scared TheAngel off :P07:51
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TSCHAKeeesorry.07:51
TSCHAKeeejust amazes me nobody even does a cursory glance for ....... anything07:51
slonopotamus-.-07:52
TSCHAKeeeinstructions...comments.....blog posts saying "DUDE! DON'T TOUCH IT YET!"....07:52
TermanaTSCHAKeee, Of course, did you expect any better from the masses? :P07:52
TSCHAKeeei hope....you know....like when Charlton Heston screamed, "SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!"07:53
TSCHAKeee:P07:53
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jrayhawkAh, suffering from Carriage Return Affective Problem, I see.08:56
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Termanajrayhawk, flat tyre?08:58
TermanaYour a bit late :P08:58
jrayhawkTo a true IRCer, time has no meaning. A year is as a day.08:59
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pupnik\ut i wanna beat people up RIGHT NOW!09:00
jrayhawklaffo09:00
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StskeepsTermana: pong09:10
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TermanaStskeeps, I thought I'd move our discussion here since it relates to MeeGo and others may be able to contribute (or learn something).09:12
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Stskeepswhich one of them? :P09:13
TermanaStskeeps, heh :P About getting MeeGo on the Nexus One09:13
Stskeepsah, about how feasible it would be09:14
Termanaright09:14
TermanaStskeeps, You said to me that if I installed a different UI, apps that didn't depend on Open GL ES would work fine. So if I chrooted in from Debian they should work fine as well right? (Since they would be using Debian's UI and X server)09:15
Stskeepswell, that's the hope at least - ideally you'd be booting straight into it09:15
Stskeepssee inspiration at the n900 chroot pages09:15
TermanaStskeeps, right, I would be setting up the chroot as a first step so that people can have something at least and then continue on to getting it booting natively.09:18
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Termana(and to confirm that everything is definitely working as expected)09:19
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Stskeepschroot's a start yeah09:27
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TermanaStskeeps, I guess the discussion should of been moved here earlier, since we covered mostly everything over pm. The part of apps that don't depend on GLES working in chroot was really it. At least until things get going :P09:32
TermanaThats when everything starts to crumble :P09:32
Stskeepsdunno how bad it looks on that side :P09:33
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pupniksame device should be able to run android and meego apps in one meego/linux OS09:36
Termanapupnik, right, I'll also be investigating chrooting into MeeGo from Android on the N1 - since I'm sure some people will want that too09:37
Stskeepspupnik: if the ubuntu guys had released their code instead of playing hide the sausage, yeah09:38
Stskeepshttp://mjfrey.blogspot.com/09:39
TermanaIn terms of the Nexus One, it will probably be better to have MeeGo under a chroot with Android. Then I don't have to work on getting the modem to play nice with ofono :P Should be about the same thing people are doing with Debian - start an x server in MeeGo chroot and a vnc server and vnc in from Android09:41
Stskeepschroot's just really lasting, a simple port should be easy09:42
Stskeeps:P09:42
TermanaStskeeps, yes, yes, don't worry Mr Porter - I'll be seeing if I can get it to straight boot as well. All in the fun of tinkering :P09:43
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pupnikTermana: i tink this is a more important goal than just 'tinkering'10:01
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Termanapupnik, more important goal? whats that, saving the poor android users? :P10:12
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pupnikTermana: right10:20
Termanapupnik, heh in all serious, one goal more important than tinkering is to spread MeeGo to as many existing and yet to be made devices as possible. If the right people get to see that MeeGo can go further than just the devices Nokia and Intel put out, hopefully more will adopt.10:22
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TermanaWe're already seeing heaps of companies planning to adopt MeeGo10:23
Termanaand I'm sure (hopefully) there will be many more10:23
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pupnikcan we hold a donations lottery to find who chose the name and dunk them?10:25
Termanapupnik, I don't know what people find so wrong with the name MeeGo :P10:26
TermanaSeems perfectly fine to me. Certainly not bad at least10:27
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pupnikit sounds like a retarded person describing what they are about to do10:28
Stskeepswell, with maemo it was a random password generator or something, so noone to blame10:29
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pupnikJar Jar Binks: Monsters out there, leaking in here. Weesa all sinking and no power. Whena yousa thinking we are in trouble?10:30
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pupnikJar Jar Binks: I don't know. Mesa day startin pretty okee-day with a brisky morning munchy, then BOOM! Gettin very scared and grabbin that Jedi and POW! Mesa here! Mesa gettin' very very scared!10:30
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TermanaStskeeps, the same sort of thing would work with Maemo 5 wouldn't it (chroot in, only launch apps that are not GLESv2 dependent (unless ALL apps are for some reason, in which case we'll have to slaughter someone))? Not that I think there is too many Maemo only apps, most have probably been ported from Debian et al.10:47
Termanagah, connection went a bit bung there, don't think it went through10:50
TermanaStskeeps, the same sort of thing would work with Maemo 5 wouldn't it (chroot in, only launch apps that are not GLESv2 dependent (unless ALL apps are for some reason, in which case we'll have to slaughter someone))? Not that I think there is too many Maemo only apps, most have probably been ported from Debian et al.10:50
Stskeepsyou're writing very long sentences10:50
Stskeeps:P10:50
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Stskeepsit might work just like easy debian does10:51
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TermanaStskeeps, would you10:57
Termanarather that10:57
TermanaI type10:57
Termanamy sentences10:57
Termanalike this?10:57
Termana:P10:57
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Stskeepsno, but half-way10:57
Stskeeps:P10:57
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Stskeepsmorning dneary11:13
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dnearyhi Stskeeps11:15
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Stskeepshow's it going?11:16
Stskeeps(good thread on tmo and mailing list btw)11:16
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slaineth0br0: you about ?12:45
Stskeepsmorn slaine12:46
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slainemorn Stskeeps, how you doing ?12:47
Stskeepsdecent, enjoying not having a commute when the weather is crap outside :P12:47
slainepretty grim here too12:48
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thiagocloudy today, but better than Tuesday12:48
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slaineraincoat in yesterday and today, including warm hoody. Was sunny when I left late yesterday evening though12:51
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thiagoit snowed on Tuesday12:52
thiagoheavily12:52
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slainethiago: we had hail and rain. Not as bad as you, but unusual for us at this time of year. May is usually our summer month :)13:02
thiagosummer will be over soon13:04
Bostiksummer may not arrive this year either :/13:04
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smokuhi. is there any build-your-own-meego-rootfs-image-howto document available?14:21
Stskeepswell, yes14:21
Stskeepswiki.meego.com/Image_Creation i think14:21
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* CosmoHill offers slaine some coffee / tea14:24
* slaine eagerly accepts, but wonders where the catch is14:24
smokuStskeeps, thanks.  (the wiki search is unusable :(14:25
CosmoHillnothing, I just made myself a cup of tea14:25
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CosmoHillat the moment I'm just reading through my code to make sure everything makes sense14:26
slaineI'm prepping a fresh buiild14:27
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CosmoHillei you can look at a function or variable and know what it does14:27
CosmoHillI.E.*14:27
CosmoHillslaine: I think my program is finished :)14:28
CosmoHillnow I just have todo the report14:28
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slaineCosmoHill: congrats14:29
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CosmoHillcat *.hpp *.cpp >> output14:31
CosmoHilla good way to find out how many lines of code14:31
slainecat *.[hc]pp | wc -l14:32
CosmoHill237314:33
CosmoHill - 40714:33
CosmoHillso about 196414:34
CosmoHill(test.cpp is 407 lines of code but isn't used any more14:34
pupnikcan i get a comment from the channel.  why do you guys care about meego14:34
pupnikwhy should ANYONE care about meego14:35
pupniknon-paid shills14:35
CosmoHillI'm personally here to learn14:35
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CosmoHillI can build a linux system from source files14:35
RST38hpupnik <-- negative, real negative =)14:35
pupnikwe have debian14:35
CosmoHillbut I lack experience in a GUI or a decent package manager14:35
Stskeepsdebian is shit on mobile platforms14:35
Stskeepsend of story14:35
Stskeeps:P14:35
Stskeepspupnik: it's a hell lot less evil than android, too14:36
slaine+114:36
* RST38h has FreeBSD. FreeBSD will rule the world, thanks to its secret prophet Steve Jobs14:36
CosmoHilli think debian is aimed more towards servers14:36
* RST38h hides now14:36
CosmoHillRST38h: i tried that once and got lose in the command line :(14:36
pupnikno, RST38h and Stskeeps should be promoted to GOD level here14:36
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RST38hpupnik: There can be only one14:36
pupniklol14:36
pupniknot lol14:36
Stskeepspupnik: well, /chanserv info #meego ;p14:36
CosmoHillRST38h: highlander!14:37
* RST38h pulls out a rusty sword and looks at Stskeeps with an evil intent14:37
TermanaLet it be known, I will smite you even without God status14:37
* Termana grabs the smite stick14:37
RST38hoh smitey...14:37
* Termana grabs the ugly stick as well14:37
pupniklet it be known, i will be annoying unless RST38h and Stskeeps get god-status14:37
Stskeeps'will be'?14:37
pupnik:D14:37
RST38hGodship is overrated14:37
CosmoHillisn't that like saying "ban me now you whores?"14:38
RST38hIt is the clergy that gets all the good stuff14:38
TermanaNO COMMENT14:38
CosmoHill(or any other insult)14:38
Termana:D14:38
pupniki do hit people14:38
TermanaBesides, what you really want is Jesusship - then you can die and be reborn.14:38
Termana"You arse, the sword hurt when it hit me in the heart"14:39
pupnikno, we have to seperate stupid from ... halfwayssmart14:39
pupnikTermana: who would you nominate for 'meego leader'14:39
RST38hMeanwhile in Baton Rouge: http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/04/house_committee_gives_its_bles.html14:39
CosmoHilldo we need a single leader?14:40
RST38hpupnik: Paul Otellini14:40
pupnikwe need to acknowledge people we respect14:40
pupnikopenly14:40
RST38hCome on, pupnik, there is no real usable Meego distro yet14:40
RST38h(the netbook version does nto count)14:41
Termanapupnik, If you don't mind, even if I did have someone to nominate as "meego leader", I wouldn't say. But I think there are too many great contributors to be pointing out a single leader14:41
pupnikyes, but how do we achieve some kind of refactoring respect system14:41
CosmoHill"we would like to thank XXX for this fine looking command prompt"14:41
RST38hSo, it is kinda early to expect any action here14:41
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RST38hpupnik: bloggers should get unlimited respect points, linearly increasing with each post containing word "meego"14:42
Termanapupnik, if you want to debate karma - go debate it with Jaffa in #maemo :P *giggles and runs off*14:42
pupnikthank you for making me almost puke14:42
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* CosmoHill is confused so he wonders off todo his work14:42
TermanaI'm a prick :P14:42
pupnikTermana: why don't i know you?14:43
TermanaIsn't that a silly question to ask? :P I don't know why you don't know something14:43
* RST38h yawns and goes to the hospital14:43
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pupniklook, meego is the gutter where people who give a SHIT about the future of FOSS on mobiles congregate14:45
pupnikthat is either a bumclub or an elite congregation14:46
pupnikmake it what you want14:46
CosmoHillmeego is about 3 months old14:46
pupniki'm off14:46
CosmoHillit's just a little baby, you need to give it time to grow up14:46
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Stskeepswhy can't it be both a bumclub and an elite congregation?14:48
Stskeeps:P14:48
CosmoHillanyone else thing that stupid people shouldn't be allowed passion?14:48
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CosmoHillStskeeps: can I pm you?14:50
Stskeepssure, but i don't help with homework during work hours14:50
Stskeeps:P14:50
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JaffaTermana: New rule - I only want to hear the word "karma" in re-runs of _My Name is Earl_14:54
CosmoHill+114:54
Termana:P14:54
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* lcuk waits for a new meego.com user to start a debate about karma15:02
lcukbets his name will be Earl15:02
lcuk:D15:02
Termana:D15:02
JaffaOh noes15:02
Stskeepsis forum.meego.com -still- upgrading?15:02
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w00t_Stskeeps: hopefully it'll never come back, bwahaha15:03
TermanaStskeeps, it was available earlier for me today15:03
w00t_(but yes, I get an upgrading notice)15:03
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Termana(also now getting the notice)15:03
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Jaffaachipa: Good point: I'd thought about that "positions" comment but didn't want to appear to strengthen whatever position I'm supposed to have.15:10
StskeepsJaffa: well, i think the problem is also definition of community..15:10
Stskeepsthere's the people with commit/say and there's the people without15:10
Tm_Thi15:11
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JaffaStskeeps: Exactly. And people with admin rights to build systems or listed on a wiki page in a WG or team aren't the extent of the community15:11
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Stskeepswe define community as all the people surrounding meego the 'product' i guess?15:14
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JaffaStskeeps: I guess15:18
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CosmoHillhey th0br015:29
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CosmoHillmaybe I should have bill bailey on in the background15:47
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CosmoHill*shouldn't15:52
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slaineth0br0: you about ?16:07
slaineI've a spec file question16:07
* CosmoHill knows a little about spec files16:07
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slaineas do I, but I think this is covered by "advanced" :)16:07
slaineI'll ask anyway16:07
slaineI need to create an rpm for a Realtek network driver. This will provide an r8169.ko module, the default kernel one fails badly16:08
slaineHow do you package it so that you don't end up with conflicts16:08
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CosmoHillif you where doing this by hand you'd want to remove the default one16:09
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CosmoHillhmm, I have that network card and that works fine in my server16:09
CosmoHillslaine: you can make it so that before it installs the module it removes the one that is already there16:09
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slainethat won't stop the conflict in the rpmdb16:11
slaineas far as rpm will be concerned, the kernel package provides/owns that file16:11
CosmoHillcould you remove it from the first package that installs it16:11
slaineI need some way to say that this new rpm replaces the file16:11
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saschihi16:12
CosmoHilli think I'll leave this to th0br0 :)16:12
Stskeepslo saschi16:12
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CosmoHillslaine: 00:09.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL-8169 Gigabit Ethernet (rev 10)16:14
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slaineCosmoHill: we've about 800 bedside units in a hospital that are netbooting, but they can lockup during a reboot due to the kernel driver16:16
CosmoHill:/16:16
slainethe manufacturer provide a driver as well as work with the kernel net driver team. Both drivers are pretty different though. Kernel driver hangs, Realtek driver is perfect16:17
lcukpaging doctor slaine, doctor slaine, patient in ward b3 reporting kernel error, get to surgery stat16:17
slainelol16:17
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slainelcuk, it's usually "My TV has a black screen"16:18
glinpusafaik, rpm isn't going to let you do that16:18
slaineit's not16:18
lcukgod forbid any linux hackers are poorly in hospital16:18
Stskeepsno 'diverts'?16:18
slaineI think the best approach is to redo the kernel rpm so that it doesn't provide that module and then provide a realtek rpm that does16:18
glinpusaside from installing with --force16:19
slaineglinpus: dirty16:20
glinpusunless the module happens to sit in a different path than the kernel one16:20
* CosmoHill grrs cos he can't figure how out to delete a ticket comment from trac16:22
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slaineglinpus: good point16:25
slaineI could put it in the updates module directory16:25
slaineor could rename it to realtek-r8169.ko and have an alias16:25
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kallamslaine: you can also put orginal module to blacklist16:29
slainethat just stops it from loading surely, doesn't resolve the package management issue16:30
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kallamslaine: how about use different name and blacklist in same package.16:32
slainethat's the current plan16:33
CosmoHillcould you not remove the orginal file form the kernel package?16:33
CosmoHillthere's no point compiling it if you're going to replace it16:33
slaineCosmoHill: we'll probably do that longer term16:33
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slaineneed to get an update out now16:33
slainewe need to streamline our kernel. it's a default fedora config at the moment16:33
CosmoHillbtw how do you find out if you're using the default kernel or the realtek one?16:34
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slainemodule has different version tags16:35
CosmoHillauthor:         Realtek and the Linux r8169 crew <netdev@vger.kernel.org>16:36
CosmoHilli think i have the default one16:36
CosmoHillholy shit there is a window cleaner at my window16:36
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lcukCosmoHill, didnt your mum warn you about sitting around in your underpants16:37
CosmoHillunderpants?16:37
slainelol16:37
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dnearyJaffa, Ping?17:22
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CosmoHillhey DawnFoster17:23
DawnFosterhey CosmoHill17:23
CosmoHillI'm proof reading code17:25
CosmoHill / trying not to kill simon17:25
dnearyHi guys17:26
dnearyHow're things in Sunny Portland?17:26
CosmoHillerm, sunny?17:26
* lbt works on an "ode to karma"17:27
CosmoHillkarma++17:27
dnearyCosmoHill, It's a zero sum game you know17:27
dnearyYyou just decremented someone else's karma17:27
StskeepsDawnFoster: mailing list creation and such, bugzilla lists.meego.com component or prod you directly (after morning tea)?17:28
DawnFosteryeah - give me a few to wake up, catch up on email & have some caffeine :)17:28
Stskeepshehe, enjoy17:28
* Stskeeps goes make himself a cup17:28
CosmoHillStskeeps: can I have one?17:29
Stskeepsif you pay shipping17:29
dnearyReading the very interesting http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2009/03/newspapers-and-thinking-the-unthinkable/17:30
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CosmoHillit's a good thing I'm not at uni17:30
CosmoHill1. Simon would be dead already17:30
CosmoHill2. The network has just crashed there17:30
CosmoHill3. It costs money to print17:30
Stskeepsheh17:30
dnearyYou know you Americans are always going on about how vital a piece of infrastructure CraigsList is to the fabric of society?17:30
TSCHAKnewsweek went up for sal17:31
TSCHAKe17:31
dnearyI have never used Craig's List. No-one I know has used CraigsList.17:31
lbtI have.17:31
lbtyou know me17:31
Jaffadneary: pong17:31
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dnearyCraigsList might well be completely unknown outside North America17:31
lbtI wanted some skis .. it was an epic fail17:31
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Jaffadneary: interesting URL17:32
thiagoDawnFoster: hi17:32
thiagoDawnFoster: I've just noticed meego planet17:33
TSCHAKMeet the new planet, not the same as the Old Planet17:33
thiagoDawnFoster: what do you think of aggregating the Qt Labs blogs for category MeeGo?17:33
lbt+117:33
DawnFosterthiago - sure. Can you email me a direct feed for that category & I'll add it to the planet.17:34
DawnFoster(still waking up) :)17:34
DawnFosterthat goes for anyone else with a meego feed that you want aggregated, too17:34
DawnFosteror drop them onto the planet wiki page17:34
X-FadeDawnFoster: http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/feeds.opml17:35
CosmoHillhey X-Fade17:35
DawnFosterX-Fade - in this case, we want MeeGo specific feeds, so wasn't planning to copy things over from Maemo.17:36
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X-FadeDawnFoster: Yeah, altough it might be good to walk over them and see the interesting ones.17:36
X-FadeSo you can invite certain people.17:36
DawnFosterthat would be an excellent project for an ambitious community member who wants to contribute to MeeGo :)17:37
X-FadeDawnFoster: You just started for this project, you should be full of energy :)17:38
lbtcurl http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/feeds.opml | sed 's/maemo/meego/ig' | mail Dawn17:38
lbtand she's had tea17:38
DawnFosterwe just ask that the feed we receive is specific to a category or tag for MeeGo and that the we check to make sure the person plans to continue contributing to MeeGo.17:38
DawnFosterstill waiting for tea to cool :)17:38
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DawnFosterX-Fade - I'm slammed with metrics stuff this week and May release - if people wait for me to wade through the feeds, it's going to be a while :)17:39
thiagoDawnFoster: I'm trying to create the MeeGo category now17:39
thiagothere's a Maemo one17:39
thiagoor we could aggregate the entire Qt Labs blog17:41
dnearyhttp://radar.oreilly.com/2010/04/ed-20-the-importance-of-owners.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+oreilly%2Fradar%2Fatom+%28O%27Reilly+Radar%29&utm_content=Google+Reader17:41
thiagothe Planet Maemo only aggregates what's on the Maemo category17:41
dnearyesp. the "Do your feet hurt?" story17:41
achipaDawnFoster: http://achipa.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default/-/meego17:41
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achipa(though my posts are usually long and boring :P )17:42
dnearythiago, How many posts a day in the Qt Labs blog?17:42
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thiagodneary: <1 on average17:42
thiagoexcept days like today17:42
dnearythiago, Making the planet too noisy to start will make it less attractive (but 1 a day sounds doable ;) )17:42
DawnFosterOK people, I'm not awake enough to add feeds to drupal - you need to email them to me or put them on the wiki :)17:42
thiagodneary: five today, because of the releases17:42
thiagobut the last one was on April 2917:43
DawnFosterguarantee that I'll lose the ones here in IM :)17:43
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thiagodneary: not all blogs will be related to MeeGo. For example, one of the posts today is about the Symbian smart installer release (apt/yum for Symbian)17:44
thiagodneary: or stuff about Mac and Windows17:44
dnearythiago, I don't mind a bit of variety17:44
dnearyBut my sweet point, from experience, is around 10 to 20 posts per day17:44
dnearyMore than that & I end up browsing headers & only reading 4 or 5 posts a day17:45
dnearyOr en masse marking feeds read because I don't have time to browse 20+ posts.17:45
thiagoI think our most active month didn't have more than 20 posts17:46
dnearyI've become comfortable with incomplete information over the years - I know I won't see every important blog post, tweet, forum thread, email etc17:46
lbtI noticed that in planet maemo anything not on-topic was voted down (sometimes a little too harshly IMHO)17:48
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CosmoHillI don't know if I was meant to learn about segfaults and bus errors17:56
CosmoHillbut I have :)17:56
CosmoHillIt means I've either made a typo in my data file17:57
CosmoHillor something has gone wrong in the linked list17:57
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Jaffadneary: MWKN to the rescue?17:58
dnearyJaffa, Indeed, I'm a regular reader17:59
JaffaRight, guessing a URL of http://planet.meego.com/ didn't help.17:59
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thiagowhat image can we use as the MeeGo logo?18:05
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lbtth0br0: you mentioned rpmdevtools... seems woefully under-documented... ?18:24
th0br0ohai lbt. uhm18:24
th0br0:D18:24
lbtam I missing something?18:24
lbthi :)18:24
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th0br0no,it does indeed seem underdocumented18:25
th0br0https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora-rpmdevtools18:25
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lbtI was hunting down rpmlint18:27
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CosmoHillhey th0br018:29
th0br0heya CosmoHill18:29
CosmoHillI'm speeding up my assignment by using two printers at once18:29
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TSCHAKeeelp0: printer on fire18:30
TSCHAKeeelp1: printer on fire18:30
TSCHAKeee:P18:30
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lbtTSCHAKeee: you have to work hard to get that nowadays!18:32
TSCHAKeeeindeed18:32
TSCHAKeeehehehehe18:32
TSCHAKeee:)18:32
CosmoHillof course, it doesn't work when you print double sided and send the second half to the wrong printer18:33
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lbtth0br0: they're in meego already :)18:39
lbthttp://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/repo/source/18:39
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th0br0ah ok. didn't seem them yesterday18:39
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* CosmoHill sees the "low on colour" light and glares at his printer18:42
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* lbt casually builds rpmlint from MeeGo trunk on maemo.org OBS18:46
Stskeepswoo18:47
th0br0:)18:48
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StskeepsDawnFoster: tea taken it's effect by now? :)18:53
DawnFosterMostly :)18:53
Stskeepsmind if i give you a pm then?18:54
DawnFostergo for it18:54
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DawnFosterI'm working from home today, so I have real tea (not the kind in the little baggies at work) - gunpowder green18:55
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TSCHAKeeeDawnFoster: very nice. :) I have some gyokuro and some really good genmaicha here :D18:56
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thiagolbt: so you create a .deb of rpmlint? :-)19:00
lbtnope... the maemo.org obs has meego trunk on it (kinda)19:00
lbtit would be the meego.org obs ... but we don't have meego.org19:00
Jaffalbt: We could get it with a Unicode homoglyph ;-)19:02
lbtDawnFoster: re RSS feeds... you wouldn't yet... there wasn't any point until now :)19:02
th0br0uh... using qt, if i want my layout to use the max size available, how to do that?19:02
DawnFosterlbt: aha - but I can't validate the feed without a post :)19:02
lbtJaffa: I was going to register the top level domain .com^H^H^Horg19:02
lbtDawnFoster: OK19:02
thiagoth0br0: check the methods in QWidget19:03
thiagoth0br0: also, check #qt19:03
th0br0thiago: true about #qt. but there is no direct designer way for doing that, right?19:03
thiagoth0br0: from the UI designer?19:03
th0br0well yes... like ... some setting or so19:04
thiagoyou really need to ask in #qt19:04
* thiago doesn't do GUI19:04
th0br0^^ ok.19:04
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Kaadlajkright-click the widget in designer and select layout19:04
Jaffalbt: heh19:05
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CosmoHillslaine: I've printed off a lot19:52
CosmoHilland it's just code :/19:52
slaineI hope you used very small pt size fonts :)19:53
CosmoHillportrait I get 77 lines of code per A419:53
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* CosmoHill pokes slaine 23:01
slaineevening23:01
CosmoHillI still need todo my report23:01
slainetsk23:01
slainelet me guess, you've been doing everything but23:01
CosmoHillI've finished my program23:01
CosmoHillmade a class diagram23:01
CosmoHillprinted the code off23:01
CosmoHillthere's got to be at least 30 pages, doubled sided23:02
slaineyeah, you did that earlier23:02
CosmoHillI'm now doing my testing23:02
arjanhehe print the code and then test23:04
arjanthat's gutsy23:04
CosmoHillI say testing...23:05
CosmoHillwhat I mean it making shit up that sounds realistic23:05
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th0br0show us CosmoHill ;)23:07
CosmoHillI've basically tested the whole thing as I've been making it23:08
CosmoHillso any problems have been fixed23:08
th0br0besides... shouldn'ti t be the other way 'round? first the class diagram and then the codez?23:08
CosmoHillsorta23:08
th0br0and second to that, did you know that netbeans can generate the diagram for you from code?23:08
th0br0I know that it can do that with java, IIRC with C++ too23:08
CosmoHillhttp://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/mapclass2.png23:08
CosmoHillI didn't know that23:09
CosmoHillI used VS2010 to make the diagram from the coad23:09
CosmoHillcode*23:09
th0br0uh... k. I thought that was your diagram ;)23:09
CosmoHill(VS2010 pro)23:09
CosmoHillthat's what I had before :)23:09
th0br0^^23:09
CosmoHillI kinda want to show you guys what I have23:10
CosmoHillbut I fear you'll say it's wrong and I'll kill you23:10
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Stskeepsheh, not going to have a easy time with code reviews in future then23:13
frals:D23:14
th0br0Better us telling you that than your corrector.23:15
th0br0How so, Stskeeps?23:15
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JaffaConference dates seem to have changed :-/23:16
CosmoHillit's due in in 20 hours23:16
Jaffahttp://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=MeeGo_Conference_2010&diff=prev&oldid=210323:17
bfreethe aviva stadium!   that will be an interesting venue!   Guess I'll have to go after all :-p23:19
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fralsJaffa: thats good news, it no longer collides with my bday! ;)23:20
Jaffafrals: Excuse for a pissup, surely?23:22
Jaffafrals: Not sure we need one.23:23
frals:D23:23
JaffaLast time I was in Dublin; Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams were at the table next to us in a restaurant/pub.23:23
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lcukh/me gets CosmoHill coffee - you will do fine on your assignment23:49
lcukright or wrong, its not through lack of effort23:49
CosmoHillthanks23:49
CosmoHillmy code is the f**king tits :D23:49
CosmoHillit's the report I don't like :(23:49
CosmoHillor the feeling of light headidness23:50
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lcukCosmoHill, i refer you to an earlier tweet of mine:  http://twitter.com/lcuk/status/1337597368723:50
CosmoHilllol23:50
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CosmoHilloh shit > http://machall.com/view.php?date=2002-12-2323:55
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CosmoHillI'm scared because that comic is so relative23:56
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