IRC log of #meego for Thursday, 2010-04-15

lbtHah: so that bit of the roadmap isn't discussed in the open then?00:00
lbtwhich seems odd00:00
javispedroso its just a naming issue?00:00
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lbtit would be nice to understand which parts of the arch are being focused on and when00:01
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HahWell, it more about how different gategories are introduced00:01
Hahwhen they are00:02
lbtwell, I didn't see much detail on the slides ... too quick00:02
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lbtso yes, it'd be good to see the discussions about what blocks are done when00:02
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lbtto help understand too which people are working on what00:02
lbtout here, for example, I have no clue who's working on ARM... so my Smart Q7 is languishing00:03
lbtand don't know what the ARM kernel guys are up to etc etc00:03
Hahblaim me if you will ..00:04
lbtheh... have they gagged the LF guy?00:04
lbtHah: no, not at all00:04
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HahI can then ask if others like to be blaimed as well ;)00:04
lbtyou were just talking :)00:04
lbtwe need to blame the team leaders who don't communicate on open lists00:05
lbtmaybe they can't ...00:05
lbtbut Ari says they can...00:05
HahOur aim is get us much of N900 specifig stuff to upstream as we can now00:05
lbtBTW, what's your role if you don't mind?00:06
HahI am currently N900 project lead..00:06
Hahfor MeeGo00:06
lbtheh, well, I'm talking with a community hat on atm :)00:06
Hah@ Nokia00:06
lbtright... so I should collar you from an internal PoV aswell00:06
lbtwith a 'nokia' hat I'm working on the internal OBS deployment and process design00:07
lbtso, why aren't you lot talking on external mailing lists yet?00:07
lbtcan you even talk about it?00:08
HahI quess I should00:08
w00t_should talk on an external ML, or should talk about it?00:08
GeneralAntilles1Hah: you here?00:08
lbtit would be good to see a "lead by example" there00:08
w00t_lbt: definitely00:09
HahIt has been bit hectic00:09
lbtwhat are the barriers?00:09
HahBut now it seems that eg. on kernel side things are progressing very well00:10
lbtIs that happening on lkml?00:10
lbt(I don't track that like I used to!)00:11
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HahWe still have some probrietary components00:11
Hahthat are hard to get rid of00:11
HahSometimes reasons are legal00:11
Hahsometimes we just haven't had time00:12
Hahto fix obvious issues00:12
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w00t_Hah: there's probably also a component of it being a transitional period, and some people not knowing 'best practice' probably.. no?#00:13
* w00t_ removes the hash00:13
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HahThis is now transitional period00:14
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Hahbut I am happy that now it seems we are getting somewhere00:14
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Hahstep by step00:14
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* w00t_ nods00:15
lbtHah: a metric for measuring success and progress:  how many development posts have been made on meego-dev00:15
lbtmaye your team could post an update for the TSG meeting each week?00:15
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lbt"Our progress towards working in the open. Barriers and Successes"00:16
HahI think we can start to make reports directly to the list soon00:16
* lbt grins.... that'll teach you to put your head above the parapet :)00:16
lbtI hope that's a constructive suggestion though00:17
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HahIt seems that I will miss Imad's presentation this time00:21
lbthi DawnFoster, not watching the kernel driver chats then ;)00:21
lbtDawnFoster: I wanted to point you at this:  I'd love to see a similar meegopeople00:22
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Hahstarts to be late here in Tampere ( actually in Pirkkala ;)00:22
HahI mean early00:22
lbtHah: indeed!   fingers crossed the recordings will be out soon00:22
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lbtHah: ... and thanks for coming on here00:24
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DawnFosterlbt: that is cool. Let's do it :)00:24
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lbtDawnFoster: :)    my memory is so poor I need a personal CRM00:24
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slainelbt, have I missed the meego talk ?00:28
lbtthink so00:28
lbtI had a power cut00:28
lbtcaught some of Ari's talk00:28
GeneralAntilles1slaine: my transcoding is in the #maemo logs00:29
X-FadeYes and no.00:29
GeneralAntilles1Video will probably be up sometime00:29
GeneralAntilles1Imad should be talking in a little bit00:29
X-FadeImad will come after this panel?00:29
GeneralAntilles1Think so00:29
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slaineI thought the meego talk  was at 1:15 to 2:00 ?00:31
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GeneralAntilles1slaine: it was00:31
GeneralAntilles1it's 2:31 now00:31
slaineAh cock00:31
slainewas off by 1 hour in my calcs00:31
GeneralAntilles1slaine: video will be up at some point00:32
GeneralAntilles1check the #maemo logs for my transcript00:32
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X-FadeYeah, typical ;)00:34
X-Fadeoops ;)00:35
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tremnite all, sweet dreams00:39
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lbtslaine: Imad is on now00:49
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lbt"the process leading up to technology selection is open"00:57
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lbt"The infrastructure is visible"00:57
* lbt wonders which meego Imad is talking about :D00:58
lbtGAN800: ask him when the build systems will be open00:58
lbtand by "open" you mean when can *you* build a package on them00:58
maclaverI suppose the plan is for the build system to be open, there is just so much stuff to release.00:58
lcukoooh slates are there now - they were missing b4 werent they00:59
lbtmaclaver: actually I hear things that say it isn't planned to be open00:59
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lbtlcuk: no. see openpeak website...00:59
lcukunicycle UX01:00
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maclaverlbt: what do you hear?01:01
javispedroMeeGo applicaions run on all MeeGo platforms? O.o01:01
lbtcomments made on here about opening the OBS "medium to long term, maybe"01:02
X-Fadejavispedro: If they use Qt pure, sure.01:02
maclaverThis was mentioned earlier, Meego compliance.01:02
X-FadeRuns after recompile is also included in that of course.01:03
javispedroyeah, but it's more like "build on all platforms", i fanything01:03
maclaverIt might be possible to build applications, not classed as Meego, but targeted to specific hardware.01:03
lcukis the guy in the slide writing backwards o_O01:03
maclaverAri's talk mentioned compliance framework run by the linux foundation.01:04
lcukmaclaver, it better had be01:04
lcukwith multitple frameworks around and arch compliance01:04
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javispedrothere. 10.1 does no longer exist, back to 1.001:06
maclaverI am getting it too, the apparent difference between what is being said and what is actually happening.01:06
GAN800maclaver: yeah. . . .01:07
lbt"pump it out there" ????01:07
GAN800I plan to bug people about that tomorrow01:07
* lbt seeks a small dribble01:07
maclaverAri and Imad say they are open and openness is important, I can take this as a statement of intent.01:07
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lcukwoooot stskeeps01:09
maclaverImad and Valtteri must have had their hands full getting all the new companies on board.01:09
lcuk"some things"?01:10
slaineWho is that guy asking the question ?01:11
GAN800slaine: dunno01:11
* lcuk doesnt care bout drivers, i understand the justifications and reasons01:11
slainewhere's mutter-moblin source then ???01:12
slainethere's talking the talk, and there's walking the walk01:12
GAN800lbt: I'll poke people about build systems at the workgroup tomorrow01:12
lbtthanks GAN80001:12
GAN800and the fscking branding confusion. . . .01:12
lcukwhy was camera man following the blone lady then o_O01:12
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lcukwhich are we gonna be seeing01:13
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lbtmmmm  bed01:13
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slaineah well, good talk by imad01:15
slainewas ari's much different ?01:16
lcukdifferent angle01:16
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slainegah, late01:30
slainetime for bed01:30
slainecatch you all tomorrow01:30
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koupsaI see nothing. I am too late for the streaming ?01:33
lbtkoupsa: yes, you missed it01:33
koupsaarf grr :/01:34
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AllenGhi, quick question, what's the format of the meego-preview-netbook-core-20100330-001.usbimg? it's an ISO file?01:39
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AllenGthanks for your prompt reply!01:45
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TSCHAKeee2saw the new screenies of Handset UX02:54
TSCHAKeee2but where's the code, man?! :D02:54
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tripzeroTSCHAKeee2, sshots?02:59
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TSCHAKeee2you know, we don't see code for certain things in the source repository03:01
TSCHAKeee2and then whammo, Intel decides to debut a whole bunch of UX examples at IDF03:02
TSCHAKeee2if they keep doing this03:02
TSCHAKeee2i'm going to start to think that we're being considered second class citizens.03:02
CosmoHillwas there a meeting tonight?03:08
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TSCHAKeee2no, it was skipped03:09
TSCHAKeee2i'm really starting to think03:09
TSCHAKeee2there are two different groups of people03:09
TSCHAKeee2there is the commercial arm03:09
TSCHAKeee2and then the community arm03:09
TSCHAKeee2and the commercial arm gets all the toys first03:09
TSCHAKeee2and then when they have had their fun, they drop it to us.03:09
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TSCHAKeee2every damn embedded systems community i've ever been a part of, seems to function this way03:10
TSCHAKeee2except most of the time, the community doesn't get code.03:10
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TSCHAKeee2i mean, it would be nice if someone could answer this03:11
koupsagood night03:11
TSCHAKeee2are we fated to just get code long after the fact?03:11
TSCHAKeee2if so, damn it, just be fucking honest about it.03:11
ShadowJKI think the idea is/was that after codedrop dev takes place in publicly visible repositories03:12
TSCHAKeee2that was what was supposed to happen, yhes.03:12
TSCHAKeee2so far, i don't see much of a difference03:12
TSCHAKeee2under moblin, you had the Netbook UX, and some of the UXes were... somewhere else.03:13
TSCHAKeee2oh look, moblin running on a phone03:13
TSCHAKeee2can I see the code? .. uh.. no... sorry...03:13
TSCHAKeee2halfway open bullshit03:14
TSCHAKeee2I am irritated because i love the promise of what meego brings.03:14
* ShadowJK thought meego on phone was just $+xterm now :-)03:16
TSCHAKeee2CosmoHill: trust me, been following the code drop.03:16
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tripzeroTSCHAKeee2, i think most companies have to go through some approval process as a CYA before any code goes open04:12
tripzerointernal* approval process04:12
tripzeroand i think the promise of meego is to actually be more open than moblin or maemo were before it04:13
tripzerobut again, i doubt intel nor nokia will just throw out code without doing some diligence in making sure that code is legal04:14
TSCHAKeee2tripzero: what I do _NOT_ want to happen, is to have two distinct classes of what could be construed by suits as "employees"04:14
tripzeroi know how you feel.  i've been on both sides of the fence myself04:16
TSCHAKeee2*nod* me too.04:17
TSCHAKeee2and i've been in the free software world for almost two decades now04:17
TSCHAKeee2meego has a huge potential here, but they should not alienate the community that gave them a base to build upon.04:18
tripzeroheh, i'm just barely two decades old :P04:18
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tripzeroTSCHAKeee2, i'm curious to know where you found screenies of the handset ui04:19
TSCHAKeee2tripzero: all over, the maemo forums, the meego forums, and04:20
* tripzero looks04:20
TSCHAKeee2a few of the news sites covering the IDF04:20
tripzeroi'd take any screenshots with a grain of salt04:22
tripzerothey could very well be mockups04:22
tripzerocould be real though...04:23
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tmzt_are there requirements to use a certain framework/toolkit?04:37
CosmoHilli duno04:37
CosmoHillit's 2:40am, I don't have to know04:37
b-man9:37pm here04:38
tripzerotmzt_, the toolkit for meego IIRC is Qt, with support for Gtk/Clutter as well04:39
tripzerobut it depends on which meego platform you are targetting04:39
CosmoHilli thought clutter was being removed04:41
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tmzt_tripzero: is clutter also supporting gjs?04:54
Guest1809Is there any document about how to use obs to build the meego? tks05:09
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microlithwoohoo, completely not going to SF07:48
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iksaifjust wrote a QPriorityQueue<T> container for Qt, do someone know where I should sent it as RFC ?09:09
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Anss|iksaif, maybe they know better at #Qt channel. basically it should be happened with merging request trough qt.gitorious.org09:20
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iksaifAnss|: thanks, I didn't know that there was a #Qt chan :) but I don't know it merge request is really the way to go, because I really wan't some comments before starting writing documentation etc for a proper merge request, but I'll ask that in #Qt :)09:27
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slainemorning all11:33
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Stskeepsmorning slaine11:34
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Khertan_HomeHi !11:41
lbthi Khertan_Home11:43
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Khertan_HomeHi lbt11:47
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slaineImad's talk last night was pretty good11:51
slainesorry I missed Arie's11:51
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lbtI'm not seeing much evidence of the talk content11:53
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slainelbt, what do you mean ?11:55
lbtwell, how much development discussion do you see on -dev?11:57
lbthow much discussion of "the process leading up to technology selection"11:57
lbtwhich, according to Imad is happening11:58
lbtI'm not whinging... just saying that there are statements being made which need to be backed up11:58
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Jaffalbt: Imad claimed that technology selection and architecture discussions were happening in the open, on meego-dev?11:59
lbthis words "12:00
lbtThe infrastructure is visible12:00
lbtthe process leading up to technology selection is open12:00
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lbtwho here can see the build systems?12:00
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lbtwho knows of any discussion on any technology selection?12:01
Stskeepswell, besides rpm vs deb, which happened after the fact12:01
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* lbt should have put "pending" :)12:02
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Jaffalbt: vBulletin on meego-community is the only tech selection I've seen12:06
lbt"Welcome to MeeGo"...12:08
lbtStskeeps: root pw12:08
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lbtmmm   case?12:11
Stskeepsmoblin if meego fails12:11
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lbt"sweetie, your roots are showing"12:12
lbtbut probably only Jaffa will get that12:12
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slainelbt, Yes, hence my comment last night, they're talking the talk, but not yet walking the walk12:13
lbtwell, with a community hat on, our role is to prod them... hard :)12:14
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slaineI'm getting tired of coming across as "the bad guy" though. complaining is that rewarding12:14
leinirand repeatedly12:14
Stskeepsslaine, lbt, Jaffa:
Stskeeps(work in progress)12:15
slaineStskeeps:looks good12:17
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slaineThe frustrating part of this is that, all the engineers in Intel and Nokia know all this12:18
slaineI'm sure Imad and Arie know all this12:18
slaineThey certainly seem to when talking about MeeGo espouse these ideals.12:18
slaineThe problem is they're not (yet) enacting them12:18
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Stskeepsone thing is how things are supposed to be, one thing is how they are implemented by people under them12:18
lbtStskeeps: I'm re-doing the RWG stuff too... can we co-ordinate l8r?12:19
Stskeepslbt: maybe, but i don't think they're related12:19
slainelbt, should we have a RWG get together ?12:19
lbtmmm, true, I will use that but you won't use mine12:20
lbtslaine: yes12:20
* lbt has to pop out12:20
slaineI can't do it tonight, but keep me posted12:20
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slaineSee, this is the kind of stuff that really makes me grumpy12:35
slaineIf this is an open project, we don't have access to the code, then how on earth are there Vendors at IDF showing off devices running a full blown MeeGo install12:35
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* Stskeeps nods12:38
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slaineAlso, it's clear from what we've seen at IDF that the Netbook and Handheld UI's are what was available for Moblin and due for Moblin 2.2 release. We had full access to the code for these back in February and then all the projects mysteriously disappeared when servers we're being migrated etc. So saying that they're not ready isn't exactly a fair statement12:49
slainehere I go, belly aching again12:49
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TigerTaelslaine, carry on.12:50
slaineSeems fruitless to be honest12:50
slaineUnfortuantely, things have turned out exactly as I predicted12:50
lbtcan we condense it into some succinct and measurable tasks for the next TSG.12:51
lbtchatting to the nokia n900 meego team lead last night I mentioned metrics like # of emails posted to -dev by meego teams12:52
slainelbt, chances are now that they've had their "big reveal" we'll see the different repo's open up either end of this week or early next week12:52
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lbthonestly, the code is mainly there12:52
lbtthe issue is the communication12:53
slainelbt, I'm not so sure12:53
Stskeeps - feedback wanted, especially on categories12:53
slaineThis is exactly how Intel behaved with Moblin for the last couple of years12:53
slaineThis was clearly calculated and planned to pan out exactly as it has12:54
slaineThey did it with Moblin 2.0 and to a lesser extent with Moblin 2.112:54
lbtBTW, who from the LF is on here?12:55
lbtor -dev12:55
lbtor -community12:55
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slainelbt, that's actually one of my pilled up questions for the TSG12:55
lbtor is LF a branding shield?12:55
slaineSurely someone from LF should surely be on the TSG12:55
Stskeepswell, ScriptRipper and dl9pf, but that probably isn't what you asked for12:55
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slainelbt, Don't forget, Moblin was LF as well12:56
slainedidn't change anything, nice PR, but that's it12:56
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Anss|maybe there should be some social/community agreement12:57
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ScriptRipperStskeeps: what was the question for me?13:00
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StskeepsScriptRipper: no question, discussing what LF represenants were in here :)13:01
lbtand what role the LF plays in MeeGo13:01
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lbtlets just say "the community would like to help Nokia and Intel audit their openness claims"13:02
slainelbt: nice13:03
timeless_mbpAnss|: eh?13:04
slainetimeless_mbp: We've been talking about open this open project is13:05
ScriptRipperrole of LF in MeeGo: trademark owner, provider of the MeeGo infrastructure13:06
ScriptRipperMeeGo certification instance13:07
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TermanaEnabler of the closed sourcedness13:08
ScriptRipperwhat do you mean?13:09
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TermanaI mean exactly what the room has been discussing. The open project doesn't seem very open13:09
* Stskeeps submits his proposal to mailing lists13:09
ScriptRipperits currently more a technical problem13:09
ScriptRipperthe means to open up are not in place13:10
lbtScriptRipper: smtp down?13:10
StskeepsScriptRipper: except this issue is not only OBS :/13:10
TermanaAh yes, this is like when you are suppose to email someone something and you didn't, you put it down to "technical issues". "My computer just wouldn't work!" "Did you not get the email? Email must be down today"13:11
Termana"Lots of viruses!!!1111!!!!one"13:11
ScriptRipperbut you all know that many people were hit by surprise on the 17.2.201013:11
ScriptRipperinfrastructure goes to OSU still13:12
ScriptRipperi think all this was discussed in the TSG meetings13:12
ScriptRipperalso the roles were discussed there13:13
lbtScriptRipper: to be fair, the focus of the discussion is on the nebulous (ie we don't know who they are) Meego teams (what teams?) are not talking in public. How is this open? How is it that LF is not talking openly about the plans to move the infrastructure?13:13
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lbtfor an "open" project there are a lot of closed discussions happening between unknown parties13:14
slaineScriptRipper Also, formally open projects for the UI are now gone behind closed doors13:15
lbtWhat I think we're doing is trying to highlight these (and Stskeeps has condensed a lot of that in his post)13:15
stefan_ejust let things settle down first, there are pobably alot of pillars that has to be set before everyone can begin to chip in on the construction.13:15
lbtstefan_e: actually no.13:16
lbtThat was day 013:16
lbtor maybe day 113:16
lbtwe're now having "open" TSG meetings...13:16
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slaineThe project clearly has a defined path that we're not being involved in deciding.13:16
stefan_ethings will open up with time I'm sure13:16
lbtdid you see any emails on the ml between imad and valheri discussing the meeting? Or was all that done in private?13:16
slaineOr how to get things working for the IDF demos13:17
Stskeepsstefan_e: except that's what we've been saying for a little too long now13:17
lbtslaine: not only that (which I kinda understand) but we can't therefore see the reasoning13:17
lbtwhich is not open13:17
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slaineOr technical discussion on driver support for Tv's, Netbooks, Vending machines that where on display at IDF13:18
lbtare there any more ICF presentations that we can get a Q into?13:18
slaineOr the actual code that was used13:18
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lbtmmmm gotta go.... back l8r13:18
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ScriptRipperi am not following the openes of the project13:21
ScriptRipperi see it with myself: fully under stress to hold the dates13:21
slaineThat's not why we're seeing any code though13:22
slainethat's just called work13:22
slainewe all have that13:22
ScriptRipperwe want to hold the dates and and not talk about the world at the moment13:22
slainewell, all those of us fortunate enough to have a job13:22
ScriptRipperparty is always better if there is a theme for the public13:23
StskeepsScriptRipper: except this pattern is going to repeat itself13:23
ScriptRipperand not "there will be ..."13:23
Stskeepsthere's really never going to be a time when it will be less stressful :)13:23
slaineScriptRipper: What you're describing there is the "Grand Reveal"13:23
ScriptRipperbut if the infra is open und the source is released, there is a basis to talk about13:23
slaine"Look what we made"13:23
ScriptRipperwho follows knows already what will come13:24
ScriptRipperthe problem is this is the 1.013:24
slaineNo, it's not 1.013:24
ScriptRipperand not a delayed 7.513:24
slaineIt's Moblin 2.2++13:25
ScriptRipperthere are substantial differences13:25
slaineThe majority if this was already available in moblin's trunk repo back in February13:25
TermanaScriptRipper: This just seems like an excuse - it doesn't matter what version it is, 1.0 or 7.5, that doesn't displace the things that are happening behind closed doors which should be open13:25
amjadso if it is Moblin where is Nokia involved then?? i mean is maemo only for app development??13:26
ScriptRipperi dont want to discuss this, because i am not responsable for:13:26
ScriptRipperrelease policy13:26
ScriptRippermeego distro13:26
timeless_mbps/majority if/majority of/13:27
slaineTrue, it's not your doing. I guess we're just frustrated and venting and looking for some support from LF to try and make things open, not justify the continued closedness13:27
ScriptRipperand i am i a real hurry13:27
slaineAnd the only reason we're so frustrated is that we WANT to be involved and make something of MeeGo. To contribute13:28
slaineIsn't that the essence of a community effort ?13:28
ScriptRipperi have to do a OBS 1.8 release13:28
ScriptRipperthe OBS 1.8 release is e.g. done in the publuc13:29
ScriptRipperits also reviewed there13:29
ScriptRipperthe Git repo is open13:29
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ScriptRipperjust to give you an example13:29
ScriptRipperit might be that the "great big plan" is not published13:29
ScriptRipperthat is something for the TSG13:30
ScriptRipperbut look at Collab Summit and Intel IDF slides13:30
ScriptRipperthey have published lots of stuff yesterday13:30
slaineyes, that's our complaint13:30
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ScriptRipperbut you have to raise your complains for this to the bosses13:31
ScriptRippernot to the worker bee13:31
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TigerTaelWhere can I watch the IDF?13:31
X-FadeI feel the real problem is that this is a very top down org. And the top is busy, so nothing really comes out.13:31
X-FadeProjects should help here, when they are eventually setup.13:32
ScriptRipperthere are some screenshots of UI, 2 complete slide sets about technique etc.13:32
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Khertan_HomeQuestion i ve just finished downloaded the usbimg of meego for netbook to try it on my netbook13:33
ScriptRipperand to be quite frank to you all: i have spent 7 years in FOSS projects13:34
Khertan_Homehow to put usbimg to an usb key ?13:34
Khertan_Homedd ?13:34
ScriptRipperi know what open is and what it means13:34
slaineScriptRipper: yes, we should be ganging up on you13:35
Stskeepsthat said, let us not shoot the messenger :P13:35
* Stskeeps knows ScriptRipper's commitment to open development and admires it.13:36
slaineI apologies if I came across like that.13:36
slaineOh shit, I meant to say "should not"13:36
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ScriptRipperas a developer of a open source project you always have to problem13:36
* slaine facepalms13:36
ScriptRipperof how to channel things into code13:36
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ScriptRipperand: the discussions in the IRC do often *not help you with coding*13:37
TermanaI don't think this is about ganging up on anyone. Its just about trying to get to the bottom of how much is MeeGo currently and going forward, going to be open.13:37
ScriptRipperbecause most people you talk to *are users and not programmers*13:37
ScriptRipperbut i have the problem as a FOSS developer *to find other developers*13:38
ScriptRipperthis has nothing to do with MeeGo13:38
ScriptRipperI talk more about OBS project where I am in since 200513:38
ScriptRipperand a FOSS project always needs a basis for all people to jump on13:39
koupsaaKhertan_Home, yes with dd dd bs=4096 if=meego...  of=/dev/sdX13:39
ScriptRipperand to improve it13:39
TermanaScriptRipper: Didn't you have some sort of release you had to work on that was important, rather than try to (for no needed reason) justify yourself to us? :P13:39
ScriptRipperi dont justify13:39
Khertan_Homekoupsaa, thx ...13:39
ScriptRipperthe disussion ongoing is repeatedly hold in every FOSS project13:40
ScriptRipperMeeGo needs to adapt to survive13:40
ScriptRipperto the surrounding13:40
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Khertan_Homekoupsaa: hum ... never see the wiki :) thx13:41
ScriptRipperTermana: I take at the moment just the freedom also to discuss :)13:42
ScriptRipperas you all13:42
koupsaaquestion: i don't now if is the good place to ask but i try. Is the .po file that will be used for meego too?13:44
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ScriptRipperlook into the meego source code drop if it is13:44
koupsaai ll try13:45
ScriptRipperahh, maybe this package is not in the MeeGo drop13:45
ScriptRipperis this a UI component?13:45
koupsaait's for firt install (choose language keyboard date etc)13:46
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CosmoHillUK air space closes in 13 minutes! :o13:47
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ScriptRipperI think the MeeGo UI is not yet published13:48
ScriptRipperits rewritten compared to Moblin with QT13:48
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koupsaaok i note. just wait so13:49
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slaineScriptRipper: I doubt that very much13:54
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slaineIt was announced that the UI will remain as Clutter/Mx but that developers are to develop in Qt13:54
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cos^ompa porukkaa14:11
koupsaaok, meego .po files are on  is what disturbed me.14:16
koupsaafor info ...14:16
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aldenwhoa? : ill14:30
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koupsaaalden, thx14:38
aldenlooks like moblin with a new theme14:39
koupsaayes i am agrre. is very moblin14:44
mrecstill trying to copy apple eh? ... something different should come up..14:45
mreclooks like something iphone like with much less features than apple14:45
koupsaaand multitask14:45
mrecwell apple has that too, just a matter of exposing it to the developers14:46
mrecfrom businessside apple and sony are doing it the best way they manage their content14:46
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TigerTaelJust as long as I can get to the terminal...14:47
slaineanyone know if it's possible you use image-creator with non-meego repos ?14:48
slaineI'm gonna see if I can get it to build an image with my own rpms14:48
Stskeepsslaine: works fine14:48
slaine(all my own, kernel, base os etc.)14:48
koupsaaslaine you can edit kickstart file14:48
slaineyes, I have done14:49
slaineI've been using the livecd-creator and appliance-tools on Fedora1214:49
slainewondering if image-creator would offer better support for what I want14:49
koupsaaslaine, i m so bad in english. the better way for me is to copy/paste this link
slainethats fine koupsaa, I know about kickstart14:51
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ScriptRipperslaine: you might be right. looks like 1.0 has the old Netbook UI14:54
ScriptRipperwith clutter and mutter14:54
slaineI know I'm right ;)14:55
slaineThis was all confirmed at the first TSG anyways14:55
ScriptRipperi did not listen14:55
ScriptRipperto it completely14:55
slaineThey weren't going to have time to make a whole new UI in a couple of weeks14:55
ScriptRipperbut what happens after 1.0?14:55
slaineExactly, I don't think they know/knew either14:56
ScriptRipperwill all be moved to QT then?14:56
CosmoHillMeego 1.0 will have a new core with the moblin UI14:56
slaineAt the moment, thirdparty developers are supposed to develop with Qt14:56
CosmoHillMeego 1.1 will have the Qt GUI14:56
ScriptRipperwas there anything said about Phone UI14:56
slaineCosmoHill: I very much doubt that14:56
X-FadeDepends per UX.14:56
slaineMore like MeeGo 1.2 when things are fully merged14:57
CosmoHillslaine: well it will have a new UI14:57
slaineMeeGo 1.1 will more likely be a more polished version of 1.014:57
X-FadeMeeGo 1.2 seems to be the real 1.0.14:57
slaineCosmoHill: got some reference for that info ?14:57
CosmoHillhmm, i was wrong14:59
CosmoHillit was meego 1.0 in may and 1.1 in october14:59
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slaineScriptRipper: not directly15:09
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slaineThough, based on what we've seen from IDF, I think Handheld UX will cover Phones and MIDs15:10
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ScriptRipperwhich IDF?15:28
ScriptRipperthe currently running one?15:28
drizztbsdhow can I start X on meego for netbook?15:28
koupsaatype startx if it's installed15:29
drizztbsdit's not installed :)15:29
drizztbsdneither xinit or gdm15:30
koupsaausb.img ?15:31
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koupsaathe only way i found to have an X with usb.img is to make an kickstart file15:32
Khertan_Homeso i'm not the only one too look :)15:32
slainedrizztbsd: Xorg doesn't work on the netbook one by default15:32
Khertan_Homejust download it15:32
Khertan_Homefound the login/pass15:32
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drizztbsdslaine: why not?15:32
Khertan_Homeand looking for if the ui is available15:32
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slainedrizztbsd: how the hell should I know why15:34
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slaineI have my conspiracy theories15:34
slainebut we'll see how that pans out15:34
slaineI've been right so far though15:34
koupsaaa .ks file with xorg-x11* and xterm  betwen %packages to have an x with meego-dev15:35
koupsaabut it's just an X like other linux15:35
koupsaano specific meego UI15:35
drizztbsdI know it15:35
Khertan_Homei think the meego ui was in preview due to the video of the idf :)15:35
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Khertan_Homei think the meego ui was in preview (for netbook only) due to the video of the idf :)15:36
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koupsaayou can get moblin if you want to have any idea about meego....15:36
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Khertan_Homeyep ... this is what i m currently downloading :)15:38
slaineKhertan_Home: what netbook do you have ?15:39
Khertan_Homei m too restless to made my first app for meego :)15:39
Khertan_Homeslaine, an n13015:39
Khertan_Homeslaine, an samsung n13015:39
slaineI don't know that model15:40
slainelet me google15:40
Khertan_Homesee that some complain about no wifi driver for the last moblin release but for testing i ll connect an ethernet cable :)15:40
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Khertan_Homeanyway it s in the moblin compatibility list :)15:40
koupsaasome bug (deconexion re-connect de-connect..) with ath9k but i've installed new kernell and it's ok15:41
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Khertan_Homekoupsaa: yep but for a test it ll be enought :)15:42
Khertan_Homeouch 754Mo ... hum ... 2 hours to wait :)15:43
koupsaaargh... and 2 minutes to test it15:44
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Khertan_Homekoupsaa, a bit more :)15:45
Khertan_Homei hope :)15:45
koupsaai have adopted it :) 3minutes15:45
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koupsaayou like the UI or not... after it his only a linux. with not a lot of packages but it's ok.. we always have the src... always.. often15:47
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Khertan_Homekoupsaa, currently i use an ubuntu on my samsung, but i m not happy with it15:49
Khertan_Homeit s well good for my desktop pc ... but the ui isn't really what i need on the netbook15:49
koupsaaas like you15:51
Khertan_Homeand maemo on my phone :)15:51
CosmoHillslaine: did you see the new macbook pro?15:52
koupsaa:) netbook and spip is actually my phone !15:52
slaineCosmoHill: drool, yes15:52
slainethankfully, mines not so out of date that I feel the need to upgrade just yet15:52
CosmoHillmine is 5 years old15:52
CosmoHillwell 4 and a half15:52
CosmoHillit's still pre-intel15:53
slainepricey though15:53
CosmoHillpoor thing has eletrical tape on it15:53
slainelol, a venerable laptop15:53
CosmoHillmy friend thinks that the screw mount has snapped so there is nothing holding the left side of the screen together15:54
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CosmoHillso it puts a lot of pressure on the screen bezel which will bend and snap15:54
drizztbsdshould I use moblin-image-creator or is there any meego-image-creator?15:55
slainedrizztbsd: the wiki has all the details on what versions to get for meego15:56
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CosmoHillslaine: :)15:56
slaineCosmoHill: awe, OS X 10.4, how quaint15:57
CosmoHillI've heard that performance in 10.5 is not so good on powerpc15:58
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CosmoHillwe've gotten to the point where sometimes we bring in power strips to use with our laptops15:59
slaineMy mbp's battery is dead15:59
CosmoHillI'm on my 3rd15:59
CosmoHill1st was a fire hazard that apple replaced15:59
CosmoHill2nd is about 20~40 mins16:00
slaineit's my old one, my wife uses it now and doesn't mind it being plugged in16:00
CosmoHillit gets to 50% battery then just powers off16:00
slainedead cell16:00
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CosmoHillI spent £100 on my new one from belgium16:00
CosmoHillnearest computer shop that spoke english :/16:00
CosmoHilland sold it16:01
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slainemorning anaZ16:02
CosmoHillI've gotten used to the GUI and the programs I use16:04
CosmoHilland I don't want to change them16:04
CosmoHilland the only way to keep them on a new computer would be to buy a mac16:04
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CosmoHillis there a way to view a log so you can see it when it gets updated16:06
CosmoHilllike cat or grep or something16:06
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slaineCosmoHill: what gets updated ?16:06
CosmoHillsay auth.log16:07
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CosmoHillor an irc chat log16:10
CosmoHillso whenever something was added to the log you could see it16:10
Stskeepstail -f16:10
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CosmoHillmaybe grep so I only get the last line of the log16:11
CosmoHillat the moment everytime I say something the whole log gets refreshed16:12
slainetail -f is what you want16:16
CosmoHillI use tail -f input but everytime something is added to the input file it seems to display the whole file again16:17
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CosmoHillah i think i know why16:17
CosmoHilli think it's the way the program uses the input file16:18
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CosmoHillyes cos it's not just added to the end it's also removing a line further up16:18
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TigerTaelThought so.16:20
CosmoHillthanks for your help guys :)16:20
CosmoHillI was just being sneezy and wondering if I could read a bot's output logs16:20
CosmoHillit doesn't log the channel, only the last thing a person said16:21
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* CosmoHill blinks cos someone has put windows 98 on a nokia 6220c17:07
CosmoHillsomeone who doesn't know how to edit videos17:07
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* CosmoHill wonders if the Nokia Booklet 3G will run meego17:16
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slaineCosmoHill: No17:21
* CosmoHill wonders why the 6220c isn't listed on nokia's support page17:21
slaineas that poor poor netbook has the infamous GMA500/poulsbo chipset17:21
CosmoHilli meant future versions17:21
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* CosmoHill is listening to "This is Dubstep Vol.2" and programming his assignment (C++)17:35
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* slaine is trying to stay awake after sleepless night with teething baby and trying to get Fedora13 running on his SetTopBox project17:36
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* Stskeeps yawns17:53
* CosmoHill offers Stskeeps some tea17:53
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CosmoHillI keep typing two 'i' in point17:54
CosmoHillbut only when programming17:54
Stskeepsi have some 'twitches' in some words as well, - i mean, i spell most words correct, but some i always fail at17:55
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rsalvetihm, ducompositor just changed it's name as mcompositor17:56
CosmoHillI get or and of mixed up constantly17:56
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* rsalveti is thinking if this is going to be default for meego or just for nokia version of meego17:57
CosmoHillI think it's something todo with the shift since I spell it wrong when it's a capital P17:57
Stskeepsrsalveti: dui's new name is meego touch, i think17:57
CosmoHillbut when it's a lower case p and I spell point just fine17:57
rsalvetiStskeeps: yeah, but do you know if this is going to be the default for meego in mobile touch based devices?17:58
Stskeepsrsalveti: no idea17:58
rsalvetiI know it's going to be for "harmattan", but don't know if it's going to be the generic implementation17:58
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w00t_rsalveti: wait and see I guess18:00
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* TSCHAKeee2 imagines prefixing all the classes with MeegoTouch and screams18:20
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StskeepsMeeGo Touch Grass18:22
fralslol TSCHAKeee218:22
w00t_Stskeeps: that's more politically correct than what my mind came up with18:23
TSCHAKeee2damn marketing people18:23
TSCHAKeee2i'm still waiting for the handset ux code to be dropped18:23
TSCHAKeee2"Why would you want that? It's not like you can make your own handset! Only us big adult corporate manufacturers can do that!"18:24
* w00t_ didn't note anyone saying that18:24
TSCHAKeee2w00t_: that's what it feels like18:25
TSCHAKeee2the embedded systems community is a good ol' boys club.18:25
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w00t_I think that there's probably a lot of people trying to make a lot of changes to the way they work, so hopefully things will change for the better soon as the rewards of that start to be felt18:26
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w00t_Stskeeps: I think your mail this morning is a bit relevant to this discussion..18:27
StskeepsTSCHAKeee2: i think it all bends down to how team work is done, which i've tried to elaborate a bit in
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* TSCHAKeee2 hugs Stskeeps18:35
TSCHAKeee2thank you for that.18:35
Stskeepsheh :)18:35
w00t_TSCHAKeee2: basically I think you should always assume good faith unless there is hard evidence otherwise18:35
TSCHAKeee2i'm both german and irish, that is.. i'm hardwired for pessimism :P18:36
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TSCHAKeee2I wonder18:49
CosmoHillI ponder18:49
TSCHAKeee2are all the IDF demos etc, still using Clutter at this point?18:49
TSCHAKeee2it sure as hell looks like it18:49
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slaineTSCHAKeee2: yes they are18:59
slaineIt was confirmed at the First TSG that this would be the case19:00
slaineand I'm fully Irish ;)19:00
TSCHAKeee2i really like clutter19:00
slaineme too19:00
TSCHAKeee2but i also like Qt19:00
slaineI was happy it's still hanging around19:00
TSCHAKeee2i'm having to make some very19:00
TSCHAKeee2tough decisions19:00
TSCHAKeee2for my project19:00
slaineof course, GNOME 3.0 will be using clutter extensively in gnom-shell19:00
TSCHAKeee2and all of the other core devs are looking at me like I am fucking crazy19:01
slaineso clutter won't be going anywhere even if MeeGo move on UI wise to something Qt based19:01
TSCHAKeee2why would I go off and move the entire stack to a system that might not be around long (referring to MeeGo)19:01
TSCHAKeee2so of the few developers we have19:02
TSCHAKeee2i am basically alone in moving a 4 million line codebase19:02
TSCHAKeee2to something, that every time i look at it19:02
slaineI'm basing off Fedora until MeeGo can prove it's open19:02
TSCHAKeee2is EXACTLY what LinuxMCE should be running on19:02
TSCHAKeee2i mean dear god, MeeGo is targeting exactly the same devices we are.19:02
slainefeck, better pack up or I'll miss the bus19:03
slaineCatch you all tomorrow19:03
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TSCHAKeee2(even the IVI stuff, there WAS at one point, an experimental version of Pluto that ran in an Audi car as a demonstration for Audi.)19:03
tripzerommm... I... V.... I...19:03
TSCHAKeee2I'm going to get a Congatec kit soon19:04
tripzerofor your car?19:04
tripzeroor just for kicks?19:04
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TSCHAKeee2for my girlfriend's car eventually, but19:04
TSCHAKeee2it's all part of my research19:04
TSCHAKeee2to get LinuxMCE into EVERYTHING19:04
tripzeroTSCHAKeee2, i believe LinuxICE is probably better in the car than LinuxMCE ;)19:05
tripzerothat's what i run19:05
tripzeroin my car19:05
TSCHAKeee2linuxMCE is much more than a media center19:06
GAN900Lot of Asian interests in the room19:06
TSCHAKeee2it's a smart home platform19:06
GAN900Samsung, Sony, LG, TI, Qualcomm19:06
StskeepsTI's hardly asian..19:06
GAN900Arjan is introducing MeeGo19:06
GAN900er, yeah19:06
TSCHAKeee2is there a stream?19:06
GAN900Lots of reps from various electronics companies19:06
GAN900Don't see any cameras in the room19:07
microlithI suspect some of them see this as a means of escaping LiMo19:07
Khertan_Homekoupsaa: have adopted moblin on my netbook :)19:07
GAN900Myrtti's recording, though.19:07
TSCHAKeee2gAN900: can you gauge the interest of the reps in the room? this is important.19:07
GAN900tripzero, LF Summit, MeeGo room19:07
Khertan_Homeoh wrong chan ..19:07
TSCHAKeee2keep typing19:07
tripzerooh... /me is not there...19:07
GAN900TSCHAKeee2, seems high19:07
Khertan_Homeoh no ...19:07
GAN900I know LG is very interested, anyway19:08
GAN900Sony/Ericson, too.19:08
microlithI thought LG wanted to create their own OS19:08
microlithmaybe they just want to fork MeeGo19:08
Khertan_HomeHey gan900 you make me think i post in the wrong chan by your presence :)19:08
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GAN900microlith, you gonna make it for today?19:08
* microlith tries not to wander down the cynical path19:08
GAN900microlith, yeah, we'll see. . . .19:09
microlithno, made a call on not going, then got told 3 hours later "you can go, if you want"19:09
tripzeroTSCHAKeee2, linuxICE is pretty powerful.  I use it for car automation...  I'm sure it could integrate with MCE fairly easily19:09
TSCHAKeee2tripzero: of course :)19:09
microlithso I'm a touch irate19:09
GAN900microlith, lol19:09
GAN900Arjan is showing the platform arch diagram.19:10
TSCHAKeee2ah yes, the layer cake19:10
lbtno stream ?19:10
TSCHAKeee2GAN900: thank you for doing this btw :)19:10
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CosmoHillLG joined the Linux Fondation this week19:11
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GAN900TSCHAKeee2, check the #maemo logs if you want the summary of Ari's talk19:11
GAN900and bergie has been summarizing all talks to his qaiku.19:11
TSCHAKeee2where is his qaiku?19:12
lcukhaving no streaming video at tech announce is like watching football o nthe radio19:12
lcukGAN900 is once again being super!19:12
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microlithGAN900: bonus points if you can identify sharp/panasonic/toshiba/nec, or kddi/ntt/softbank19:13
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microliththat would tell a lot19:13
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Stskeepsyay nomovok :)19:14
GAN900microlith, not that I've noticed so far.19:15
* GAN900 tried to use Maps on the Nexus One this morning to complete fail.19:16
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GAN900Mid-talk QA I don't feel like transcribing. :P19:19
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Stskeepsany RPM vs deb questions yet?19:20
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GAN900Ronan called my bugs/ thread stupid, though. :(19:20
microlithStskeeps: not when you're within beating distance :)19:20
lbthow about "can I have an account on the build system please?"19:21
GAN900lbt, they're talking arch19:21
mitsutakaI'll attend MeeGo Workring Group from irc and from Japan :)19:21
StskeepsGAN900: could you ask where the mailing list for the architects are?19:21
Stskeeps(honest question)19:21
lbtyes... Imad said this was discussed in the open.... where?19:22
microlithmitsutaka: is there a WG scheduled for Japan?19:22
lbtGAN900: if you ask one question... make it around that point :)19:22
* GAN900 thinks there's a cloistered discussion somewhere.19:22
lbtthat's the point...19:23
GAN900Mostly here, in the building19:23
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mitsutakamicrolith: 21th of Apr, MeeGo Seminar Spling will hold in Japan :)19:23
GAN900Imad, Ari and others are missing from the room. . . .19:23
microlithaww, too soon19:23
lbtGAN900: yesterday I said "the community would like to help Nokia and Intel audit their openness claims"19:23
mitsutakaSpling -> Spring19:23
microlithif it were later this year I'd try to make it :)19:24
microlithfor now I'll settle for getting japanese input on my N900 working19:24
mitsutakamicrolith: Do you use the maemocjk package?19:25
* GAN900 saw somebody using an N900 with Japanese.19:25
microlithI tried previously, one used unfamiliar romaji and the other only worked with the soft keyboard (which I could never get to come up.)19:25
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mitsutakaGAN900: sounds good19:26
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mitsutakamicrolith: I know, It has been problem yet that input Japanese only soft keyboard.19:27
mitsutakaIt couldn't launch scim when I take ctrl + shift or space.19:28
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mitsutakaII wanted to participate in local... want to go to SF!19:29
CosmoHillmy program is going well :)19:30
GAN900Here's the deb vs rpm question19:32
leinirGAN900: Please tell me the guy on stage went *facepalm* ;)19:32
CosmoHillhere's my sword19:32
GAN900Talking about OBS19:33
GAN900They seem to be saying that RPM is required for MeeGo compatibility19:33
Stskeepsoh dear19:33
GAN900Which puts Harmattan in violation of that. :rolleyes:19:33
Stskeepshere we go again19:33
Stskeepsthe real argument isn't that, it's much more sane :/19:34
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CosmoHillGAN900: is his talk / video thing now?19:35
mitsutakahmm.. My hope is keeping use rpm, bcoz I continue to use from the time of moblin.19:35
CosmoHillas far as i know very few distros have swapped package managers from deb to rpm or visa versa19:36
CosmoHillonce you've picked one of them it's best to stick with it19:36
Stskeepsafter working a while with rpm, i'm fairly happy with it19:37 vs bugzilla.meego.com19:37
javispedrowell there's some heck of a distro who swapped deb to rpm right around here :)19:37
GAN900CosmoHill, not streamed19:37
GAN900being recored, though.19:37
CosmoHillah okay cool19:37
mitsutakaGAN900: cool19:37
CosmoHillI hope it's not in flash :o19:37
GAN900Be sure to thank Myrtti!19:38
* CosmoHill sticks his laptop on reduces performance to cool it down a bit19:38
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* lbt proposes the smart package manager...19:39
CosmoHillit's because of people like me text editors have find and replace all :/19:39
mitsutakaBTW Chrome OS was adopted portage by Gentoo19:40
CosmoHillI can't spell success or edge and I keep spelling point with two Is19:40
CosmoHillmitsutaka: that sounds...painful19:40
CosmoHillisn't Chrome OS targeted at netbooks / nettops?19:41
CosmoHilldevices known for they outstanding performance, especially when compiling packages19:41
CosmoHillGAN900: you at the meeting?19:41
GAN900CosmoHill, MeeGo track at the LF Summit.19:42
* Robot101 should probably go :)19:42
CosmoHillI couldn't go even if I wanted too19:42
Robot101was just putting our press release up on the website19:42
Robot101wooo yay etc19:42
CosmoHillUK airspace is closed atm19:43
maclaverWhat is happening over there? (Wants to go home on Friday)19:44
Robot101volcano in iceland19:44
Robot101flying planes through ash turns out to work badly19:44
CosmoHillIceland volcano erupted and has thrown up a load of ash19:44
CosmoHilllast time it happened BA had the world's biggest glider19:44
maclaverPoor icellanders, first the economy goes up in smoke and then this...19:44
CosmoHill747 - engines = bad19:45
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CosmoHillRobot101: oo, Collabora is only 50 miles away19:45
mitsutakahmm.. sleepy.. It's 1:46am JST19:46
CosmoHillJapanese summer Time?19:46
maclaverGAN900: anything new to you in this meeting so far?19:46
Myrttii love that little hd camcorder19:46
mitsutakaJapan is no summer time.19:46
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mitsutakaJST -> Japan Standard Time19:47
lbtRobot101: so why isn't Meego using the smart pkg manager?19:47
CosmoHillRobot101: hmm, Collabora might be a company that could help me with my assignment since I need to find out how much it would cost to outsourse something19:47
GAN900maclaver, nope.19:49
CosmoHillI like :)19:49
maclaverPity :-(19:49
maclaverIt would be so much easier if we had the software.19:50
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GAN900CosmoHill, lol19:51
Robot101CosmoHill: ...? assignment?19:52
CosmoHillI have a project managment assignment todo for university19:52
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lcukRobot101, extended stay if ash cloud doesnt clear?19:53
CosmoHillproblem is it's very verge :/19:53
GAN900app build service separate from platform19:53
GAN900tbd, mostly, though19:53
maclaverCosmoHill, it looks like they justs leaked the automotive UX...19:54
CosmoHillI hope texting isn't enabled on that19:54
lcukwhy not, its so fiddly using stylus and osk in car, i want big touchable buttons19:55
GAN900multiple appstores19:55
CosmoHillit's fine if you're parked up or stuck in traffic19:55
lcukCosmoHill, biggest problem with sms in the car is having to turn the haridryer off - it inteferes with cell reception19:56
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MyrttiI'd pay good moneey for a spoonful of honey19:57
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mitsutakaNetbook UX hasn't been released yet right.19:58
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GAN900It's Moblin19:59
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GAN900Break time.20:00
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CosmoHillfor now20:04
faleI've seen that in extra there is gnome... I haven't seen kde in any repo... am I blind or kde have not been packaged yet?20:05
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CosmoHillI think it's the latter20:06
* fale would prefer the first xD20:06
CosmoHillwould meego even have gnome or kde?20:06
glinpus not a full gnome either, iirc20:06
faleCosmoHill: <-- here you can find gnome (or, at least, pieces of)20:07
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OldChapwas it so that Ux is vendor specific20:07
OldChaponly basic stuff comes with meego distro20:08
faleOldChap: I think that if something is in the repo this doesn't scritly means that you have to install it20:09
OldChapi didn't mean that20:10
leinirfale: KDE is working on modularising kdelibs and friends, preparing for use on various handhelds (to enable packagers to only pull in certain features as required by applications)20:11
faleleinir: then we will not see kde in meego at least until 4.5 is released?20:11
lcukhas anyone got a multitouch computer (not a handheld)20:12
OldChapbamboo pen&touch supports multitouch20:13
leinirfale: No - but at that time there's also going to be plasma-mobile, of course :)20:13
* CosmoHill is experiencing internet problems20:13
OldChapthat's not a computer of course20:13
faleleinir: I see20:13
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notmartfale: well, the modularizing of kde will definitely take a while, but would really be nice to have the full one already there in some unofficil whatever repository :)20:14
leinirfale: see also notmart's post on the mailing list ;)20:14
falenotmart: yes, I agree20:14
CosmoHill    temp = temp->next(); << the amount of times I've missed this and gone into an infinite loop -.-20:14
falenotmart: when did you posted it?20:15
notmartfale: yesterday20:16
falenotmart: cool, thankyou :)20:16
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TSCHAKeee2fale: I really think you're being sily20:27
TSCHAKeee2fale: MeeGo is not a desktop20:27
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OldChapits not only that, yes20:30
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GAN900Restarting in 1020:34
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faleTSCHAKeee2: I don't see anything bad on a KDE on a D510 ;)20:35
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TSCHAKeee2way to think like a geek20:36
* TSCHAKeee2 walks away20:36
fale(D510 is more powerfull than the actual PC I'm working on...)20:37
TSCHAKeee2fale: there isn't anything i can say to convince you that KDE is not a good fit for MeeGo, so...whatever.20:37
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notmartTSCHAKeee2: yes, you don't want  something like kdevelop on a 4" display, however, kde is not only the kde -apps- (so qwidget based, requiring a mouse etc)20:40
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CosmoHillis it weird that slipknot calms me down?20:45
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tripzeroCosmoHill, not really.  for some people caffeine calms them down20:45
CosmoHillit probably helps that my assignment is going well20:46
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GAN900Talk about the netbook UX from Novell.20:47
TSCHAKeee2so novell has their own?20:48
Myrttiawwww, dawn has tea :-<20:48
GAN900downstairs at the coffee table. :P20:48
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* TSCHAKeee2 sets up a script to retweet GAN90020:54
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GAN900Not a lot of interest in the netbook UX. ;)20:58
leinirHehe, that's not really that surprising :)21:00
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CosmoHillthis is why I have a bot that reponds to "hello"21:18
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drizztbsdmic-create-bootstrap does not works21:25
slonopotamusthat's ok21:26
TSCHAKeee2now that i think about it21:29
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TSCHAKeee2MeeGo may be one step closer, to the dream environment i envisioned in the late 1980s, when I first saw the TRON microkernel21:29
TSCHAKeee2(no, not the movie, there is an OS called TRON..japanese users in here will know what i am referring to)21:29
microlithI've seen the NHK documentary on it :D21:30
TSCHAKeee2i've used it21:30
TSCHAKeee2developed on it21:30
TSCHAKeee2amazing OS, but it is definitely waaay long in the tooth21:30
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microlithit still gets mileage due to its support for extremely obscure kanji, iirc21:31
TSCHAKeee2i walked through the TRON demo house in 1991.21:31
microlithstuff that's not even part of Unicode21:31
TSCHAKeee2380 individual computer systems running some form of TRON21:31
TSCHAKeee2managing every single aspect of home control21:31
TSCHAKeee2and even with that amazing OS, they were not able to completely debug the thing, over a 5 year run.21:31
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TSCHAKeee2we can thank Microsoft for completely killing TRON's planned world domination21:32
TSCHAKeee2(they were directly responsible for the threat they imposed to Fujitsu for releasing what would have been the first TRON PC)21:32
lcuki think it was the name first21:33
lcukeveryone envisioned riding light cycles21:33
microlithI'd probably be better with my japanese computer terminology if they hadn't :/21:33
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TSCHAKeee2from a systems architecture standpoint it was amazing, it just didn't take into account what actually did happen in the intervening years with regards to advances in network infrastructure and CPU speeds.21:34
TSCHAKeee2part of it does live on though, in iTRON.21:34
TSCHAKeee2and some people have overlaid iTRON on top of Linux.21:34
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CosmoHillash cloud completely misses Ireland but covers GB21:53
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slainehey guys21:55
Stskeepswb slaine21:55
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slaineI'm thinking of writing an email to the -dev list, suming up our discussions earlier21:56
Stskeepswhich one(s)?21:56
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slaineI think we need some honesty from the powers that be as to how open meego is supposed to be21:56
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Stskeepstail it in my thread?21:56
TSCHAKeee2slaine: hear hear!21:57
TSCHAKeee2and at least if it's not gonna be open all the way21:58
Stskeepsare we speaking open development or open source..21:58
slaineI'm talking community here21:58
TSCHAKeee2but yes, emphasis on the community21:59
Stskeepsslaine: you saw my post right?21:59
CosmoHillslaine: #meego-dev21:59
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slaineand imad's discussion emphasis on things being discussed out in the open21:59
slaineCosmoHill: that must be new21:59
TSCHAKeee2are there snapshot builds of the netbook ux being done?22:00
slaineNot publicly22:00
TSCHAKeee2and the builder isn't open yet..22:00
slainewe where given a bare minimum of code in the day 1 drop22:00
TSCHAKeee2yup i went through it22:01
TSCHAKeee2bare is right22:01
Stskeepsthere's qt22:01
lcukwe were given plenty of code on day 122:01
slaineand in my opinion, that was done on purpose so that they could get PR for Meego at IDF and Collab summit22:01
TSCHAKeee2i'm running a meego snapshot22:01
lcukint main() {    printf("hello world\n"); return 0;  }22:01
TSCHAKeee2from sometime in feb 201022:01
lcuksee, more code ^22:01
TSCHAKeee2and boy howdy is it flakier than a french pastry22:02
TSCHAKeee2my girlfriend is jealous of it though22:02
TSCHAKeee2i had to do something newer than moblin 2.1, because my Asus 1005HA has an ath9k, which, had constant epileptic fits under Moblin.22:03
* TSCHAKeee2 imitates spastic seizure boy impressions22:03
Stskeepsslaine: i think instead of pointing out the issues, indicating support for my proposal might be another way to get things on track22:04
TSCHAKeee2(yes, it is OKAY for me to do so, I have complex partial seizures) :P22:04
TSCHAKeee2I support the proposal22:04
TSCHAKeee2so how do we show support? by..buying you a beer, or..? ;)22:04
slaineI'm conflicted as to what to do22:05
slaineI want to voice my concerns22:05
Stskeepswell, that too, but helping shape it and commenting, or mentioning cases where your contributions were difficult to make because of Don'ts, etc22:05
TSCHAKeee2slaine: buying people beers is always a good thing to do :D22:05
slaineI want to find out if I've got the wrong end of the stick as regards how open this is supposed to be22:05
slaineTSCHAKeee2: if anyone was around here I would22:05
slaineI'm off for a few pints in about 10 mins, hmmmm, Guiness22:06
slaineGuinness even.22:06
Stskeepsslaine: as far as i can tell, TSG wants to push things in the right direction, but they also have to fight a lot of company habit22:06
lcukslaine, there are a lot of people currently huddled together in america - since they might be staying a bit longer22:06
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lcuki would imagine that wait and see might be in order22:06
slainelcuk: the won't be getting back to the uk any time soon :)22:06
lcukand if you want to feel proactive22:06
lcukhelp Stskeeps22:06
Stskeepsslaine: i'm not 100% sure TSG is actually running the full show, and a lot of rogue teams showing off their stuff22:06
Stskeeps / marketing pushing things out22:06
lcukrogue teams?22:07
slaineStskeeps: good point22:07
lcukthe device i saw appeared to be one by company for a while22:07
slaineBut there's clearly too much happening internally22:07
TSCHAKeee2lcuk: you know, the guys doing the Handset UX, and the TV UX... ;)22:07
TSCHAKeee2vendors like OpenPeak22:07
TSCHAKeee2which, btw guys, it is very doubtful that OpenPeak will EVER sell directly to end users22:07
TSCHAKeee2they make products for others to sell22:08
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slainePartly my upset comes from the fact that I predicted exactly what's happened over the last few weeks and I was hoping I was wrong22:08
TSCHAKeee2and really wouldn't give a flying fuck about individuals22:08
lcukyeah its also doubtful that a tyre company could become the largest mobile phone company on earth22:08
TSCHAKeee2OpenPeak isn't a tyre company22:08
TSCHAKeee2they're an industrial design firm22:09
lcuknokia was :)  companies change and reinvent themselves22:09
lcukyou should never say never22:09
TSCHAKeee2oh that's right22:09
Stskeepsslaine: i feel like a fool too, but i keep telling myself we should fight for openness22:09
Stskeepsand point out where there's flaws and how we -should- be doing things22:09
TSCHAKeee2Stskeeps: you are doing the right thing.22:09
TSCHAKeee2Stskeeps: there is no question of that.22:09
slaineStskeeps: but they know all this, they've chosen not to do it22:09
w00t_slaine: "we should be doing this but nobody else is" is hardly an incentive to do it22:10
w00t_I'd have thought that one was obvious22:10
w00t_it will always be easier to keep with the status quo rather than make waves22:10
TSCHAKeee2the embedded systems market has traditionally been VERY VERY HUSH HUSH handshake22:10
slainew00t_: if you listened to the talks yesterday, you'd think everything was perfect22:11
Stskeepsslaine: there's a lot of powers to be fought and i can only imagine that TSG has had a lot on their hands even taming their own teams22:11
w00t_slaine: but I've been doing more than just listening to the marketing bullshit :P22:11
TSCHAKeee2they've been working like this for 30 years22:11
w00t_it's one thing to say you do things and pay lip service - it's another to actually do it22:11
w00t_and the two are totally disconnected22:11
slaineI know22:11
slainethanks guys22:11
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slaineI've calmed down a little now22:11
TSCHAKeee2i keep holding out hope22:12
TSCHAKeee2that a truly open embedded systems platform will emerge22:12
lcukTSCHAKeee2, whatever the case:22:12
slaineI don't want to go off the handle and become a pariah22:12
w00t_I think that raising it on the ML was the right thing to do, now let's see what comes22:12
lcukux can be rewritten by anyone22:12
TSCHAKeee2that is inexpensive for any fab to make one-offs.22:12
Stskeepsslaine: if you don't get pissed off once in a while, you aren't fighting hard enough :)22:12
slainelol, truee22:13
TSCHAKeee2my problem is, i get pissed off too often22:13
slaineTSCHAKeee2: that's the irish man in you22:13
slainelets get pissed and have a fight22:13
TSCHAKeee2I do not want another TiVO22:13
slainebe gah and be gahrah22:13
TSCHAKeee2i do not want a whole INDUSTRY of TiVOs22:14
TSCHAKeee2oh yes, look at us, we use free software22:14
TSCHAKeee2"can we change it?"22:14
lcukTSCHAKeee2, then start on the road to it yourself22:14
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lcukscratch that itch22:14
StskeepsTSCHAKeee2: i don't doubt that the core system will be fully open source, hardware adaptations may have some closed source and hardware vendors might add in differentiation apps to the mix.22:14
slaineright, I'm off for those beers22:15
TSCHAKeee2lcuk: I am trying. trust me, the work i am doing on LinuxMCE is a handful unto itself.22:15
StskeepsTSCHAKeee2: even that is a huge step forward22:15
slaineI'll catch you tomorrow22:15
slainebe gentle with me, I might have too many ;)22:15
w00t_I have wanted beers for the past week22:15
TSCHAKeee2when you see black22:15
w00t_I'm going nuts :P22:15
TSCHAKeee2you've drank too much,22:15
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TSCHAKeee2From: Slaine's Liver, To: Slaine: Subject: Dear John Letter.   I know we're irish, but.. I quit.. seriously.. later. -Your Liver22:16
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* TSCHAKeee2 continues looking for a job... is nervous :(22:17
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* CosmoHill hugs TSCHAKeee2 22:17
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TSCHAKeee2been out since March..and I'm getting really really nervous22:18
TSCHAKeee2sooo do not want a repeat of LAST YEAR22:18
CosmoHilllast job i had was 200722:18
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TSCHAKeee2i was down to lint pancakes there at the end of 200922:18
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microlithwow, novell managed to push mono into meego22:22
CosmoHillwhy does meego need mono?22:23
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TSCHAKeee2oh dear god22:23
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TSCHAKeee2no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no22:23
Stskeepsit's a runtime like any other22:23
microlithStskeeps: go tell MS to stop making patent noise and I'll care less22:24
Stskeepswell, at least we're not discussing rpm vs deb22:24
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TSCHAKeee2i'm concerned more with UI concerns between apps in the gtk and qt camps...22:25
lbtStskeeps: it's not quite "like any other"22:25
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TSCHAKeee2but still, it is nice novell joined on, the more the better22:26
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TSCHAKeee2i just hope we can kill any snakes in the garden22:26
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Stskeepsdoesn't ubuntu have mono now too?22:27
Stskeepsalso, mono is an most excellent disease to have. think i lost a summer of hacking to that as a teen.22:27
* lbt stands by his "ugh" :)22:28
thiago_homelol @ Stskeeps22:28
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TSCHAKeee2you know, with the embedded form of qt, egl support, and the mali200 driver, i think a full meego UX could be made for the smartQ V7... ;)22:30
thiago_homethere are many devices done with QWS22:30
thiago_homeincluding a phone22:30
TSCHAKeee2(the mali200 driver does work on the smartQ v7 beautifully, but it is EGL only)22:30
thiago_homeremember the Greenphone?22:31
TSCHAKeee2oh yes22:31
TSCHAKeee2this smartq V7 is a wonderful device, but it needs a better environment22:31
TSCHAKeee2and the android on it is half baked at best22:31
thiago_homeand that was woefully underpowered22:32
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thiago_homeI think that's comparable to an S40 of today, not even Symbian, much less MeeGo, Android and iPhone22:32
TSCHAKeee2yup that would make sense22:32
TSCHAKeee2thiago_home: are there any interesting gotchas to watch out for when using pure openGL ES as the painter for everything?22:33
thiago_homenot that I know of22:37
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TSCHAKeee2wait, is the source for uxlaunch in the code drop?22:39
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StskeepsTSCHAKeee2: there's a mali200 driver that works on v7?22:43
TSCHAKeee2oh yes22:43
TSCHAKeee2borischka got it working22:43
TSCHAKeee2but no X22:43
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TSCHAKeee2it's just a straight OpenGL ES to framebuffer22:44
TSCHAKeee2did i just see your heart sink?22:44
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* CosmoHill noms rhubarb and custard22:48
* TSCHAKeee2 eats evil food22:51
CosmoHillbig mac?22:51
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TSCHAKeee2CosmoHill: beer battered bacon double quarter pounder22:54
TSCHAKeee2no, just kidding22:54
TSCHAKeee2i had some eggs benedict earlier. ;)22:54
TSCHAKeee2english muffin, grilled, split in halves.. on each slice, a slice of ham, and a poached egg, covered in hollendaise sauce22:55
CosmoHillI'd drool if I wasn't full22:55
TSCHAKeee2the perfect breakfast, both sober, and with a hangover22:56
CosmoHillI've only had 3 or 4 hang overs in my life :)22:56
CosmoHilldamn you vodka22:56
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TSCHAKeee2on vodka?22:57
TSCHAKeee2um.. i've lost count22:57
TSCHAKeee2but my primary alcohol preference is 18+ year old scotch22:57
TSCHAKeee2(Lagavulin 16 being the exception)22:57
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CosmoHilllast time I had vodka I was already drunk22:59
CosmoHill(I\m a light weight)22:59
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GAN900Quim's doing a "Normal day in the MeeGo project"23:03
Myrttiohai. yes, I've got an HD camera23:03
thiago_homewake up, have breakfast23:04
thiago_homeread email, then go to work, read more email23:04
StskeepsGAN900: please make notes, curious how it -is supposed- to be like :P23:04
* CosmoHill is watching the three party leaders discuess / aruge23:04
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GAN900Two main driving forces: oss projects (upstream) and MeeGo working groups23:07
lbtworking groups plural?23:08
GAN900lbt, yeah, yeah. :P23:08
* GAN900 keeps seeing different device segments diagramed as working groups23:08
GAN900Who knows what the fsck a working group actually is, though.23:09
GAN900Nobody here, really, so far as I can tell.23:09
GAN900TSG is really high-level . . . blah blah blah23:10
Myrttiif someone needs to go to TSG, something is really really badly wrong.23:10
lcuklbt what are youworking on at the moment23:10
Myrttior something23:10
GAN900Diagraming handset/netbook/ivi WGs next to the TSG23:10
lbtRWG notes and image building on OBS23:10
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lcuklbt, based on the obs thing - when the official obs system comes online for meego will it be practical for companies to easily drag build system to their own servers23:14
lcukif they wanted to continue working on integrating their components23:14
lbtsure, they'll just need a little consultancy...23:14
* lbt grins and holds up a sign23:15
lbt"get your OBS consultancy here, 5 for a pound (or so)"23:15
lcukcan you sync between obs instances (since its all git under the hood23:16
lbtnot sync23:16
lcukcompanyA makes their own private build system so they can work on mega application AA23:16
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lcukbut every now and then they want to pull the latest components in23:17
lbtthere are a lot of techniques depending  on what you want to do23:17
lcukfor meego base stuff23:17
lbtMeego appears to be doing weekly snapshots23:17
lbtthose make sense23:17
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lcukwell a weekly snapshot might not be right23:18
lcukunless you can append to an image23:18
lcukwith secret company software AA23:18
lcukand instlal on all company machines23:18
lbtsnapshot of the repos including src23:18
lbtand yes, there's a *lot* you can do23:18
lcukim just wondering how interested parties will be working23:18
lbtwhat you're talking about is establishing a QA process and managing the baseline OS23:19
lcukassuming some companies like cathederal model23:19
lbtyou want to track it to avoid disruption23:19
lbtbut you don't want changes in the baseline to screw with your internal scheduling23:19
lcukno, so the OBS machine inside big company A and the mechanics servicing it23:20
lcukneed to know how to bring it up to latest23:20
lcukall hypothetical of course23:21
lbtthe OBS is a build system... what you need is to setup some workflows around it23:22
lbtit/you can easily manage the sync with upstream23:22
lbtand if you want a live connection - that works too23:23
lbtso you build your code on your private instance using up-to-the-second changes on the public OBS23:23
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GAN900Talking code, trunk, git, upstream, patches23:37
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GAN900 /snooze23:37
GAN900lbt, gonna have to wait for Myrtti's video. :P23:38
Myrttiyeah, my brain turned off a good while ago23:38
Myrttifortunately the camera works23:38
lbtkeep it level Myrtti23:38
Myrttiit's on a gorillapod on the back of a chair23:38
GAN900Except arjan keeps smacking the chair while gestulating. :P23:39
Myrttiok, now the camera is running on fumes23:39
MyrttiGAN900: watch out, I migth do a lunge for it soon23:40
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Robot101lcuk: yeah will probably go over to montreal with burger23:45
lcukRobot101, yeah its a bit smoggy over here23:45
Myrttithat was fun23:46
Myrttialmost snapped a fingernail ;___;23:46
Robot101lcuk: :/23:46
Myrttilbt: sorry, I had to change the batteries.23:47
lbtclose call then ;)23:47
lcukRobot101, do they still do atlantic cruises?23:47
CosmoHillwhere was this meeting again?23:47
Robot101lcuk: lol23:47
MyrttiI wonder what kind of bribery I need to do to get BF to edit these videos before uploading23:47
lbthmm, meego summit on a cruise liner in the fjords...23:47
Myrttiatleast stich the two pieces of this session in one23:48
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lcuki think the volcano was a worldwide conspiracy to give nokians and other meego participants a longer holiday23:49
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maclaverlcuk: say that to my wife :-)23:49
lcukmaclaver, i cant now, shes in the shower23:49
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MyrttiI wish I could use that as an excuse23:49
maclaverI don't think that a small volcano is a good enough excuse for her.23:49
lcuklol maclaver23:50
lcukmy missus would be the same23:50
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lcukthey say 48h before the stuff falls out of the sky or spreads out enough23:50
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Myrttiaw. I wish Quim would draw bunnies and flowers23:50
lcukMyrtti, hes whiteboarding?23:50
maclaverHe's not good at bunnies.23:50
Myrttilcuk: indeed23:51
* lcuk mutters something about interactive internet enabled ones23:51
maclaverTufte would be proud, no powerpoint, go Quim go.23:51
lcuksomeone make rolf harris wobble board noises or shout "can you tell what it is yet?"23:52
Myrttilcuk: X-D23:53
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tremnite all, sweet dreams23:58
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