| lbt | oh, fair enough. Any special reason? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| dcordes | meewhat? | 00:01 |
| lbt | jebba: ^ | 00:02 |
| dcordes | so many people in here | 00:02 |
| thiago_home | steady around 350 | 00:03 |
| dcordes | seems like nothing but PR yet | 00:03 |
| thiago_home | we passed the 300 mark on the first day | 00:03 |
| dcordes | because nobody is talking business :) | 00:03 |
| thiago_home | I saw two jokes about Sparta that day | 00:03 |
| lbt | dcordes: what's your interest? | 00:03 |
| dcordes | lbt, that sparta thing seems quite interesting | 00:03 |
| jebba | about the only thing the project has done so far publicly is to decide to use non-free software, yay! | 00:04 |
| dcordes | I would like to discuss synergies between sparta and the meego technical steering manager | 00:04 |
| lbt | jebba: yeah - but that's a decision I support :) | 00:04 |
| lbt | frankly I don't care *that* much about OSS forum software | 00:05 |
| dcordes | jebba, where does it say that it decided that? | 00:05 |
| jebba | well, i dont. I'm not going to through my energy and some lame project that acts like a free software project, but isnt | 00:05 |
| jebba | dcordes: on meego-community ml | 00:05 |
| dcordes | any link to archives? | 00:05 |
| lbt | jebba: OTOH the focus is on making the device SW as free as possible | 00:05 |
| jebba | Dawn Foster, Quim Gil, Mike Shaver and Tero Kojo made finaly decision. | 00:05 |
| lbt | jebba: I'd rather we spent the OSS forum credits on opening device HW modules | 00:06 |
| jebba | lbt: bullshit. If they wont even put up a free *forum*.... It's certain they aren't going to have a free device. | 00:06 |
| lbt | wouldn't you? | 00:06 |
| lbt | nope - economics | 00:06 |
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| lbt | which is indeed bullshit if you have limited cash :) | 00:06 |
| jebba | no, the whole stack should be free. anyway. taht's why i dont want any part of it, because shit like this is going to come up all the time. The non-free forums is going to be a thorn in the project for the entire time they are up. | 00:06 |
| lbt | yes it is going to come up the whole time | 00:06 |
| lbt | and there are people out there who won't do shit to help until it's all free and handed to them on a plate | 00:07 |
| jebba | and its an indicator that the project leaders are perfectly fine with it, since they decided. | 00:07 |
| lbt | by the people who work like stink to make sure it is free :) | 00:07 |
| lbt | and we have to deal with the crap and it sucks | 00:07 |
| mikhas | I have no problem with an "unfree" forum | 00:07 |
| jebba | they are working like stink to make it not free. They just added a big non-free chunk today. | 00:07 |
| mikhas | most websites you use are not OSS anyway | 00:08 |
| jebba | yes, most websites arent FLOSS projects either. | 00:08 |
| lbt | nope, they took a realistic assesment and said they'd rather focus effort on free device SW than spend community resource on free forum S | 00:08 |
| lbt | SWE | 00:08 |
| lbt | BTW - I'm only arguing with you 'cos I want you to stick around :D | 00:08 |
| lbt | however, the meego area is sure as hell going to be a pit of compromises... | 00:10 |
| dcordes | who wants to bow down to some technical steering manager? | 00:10 |
| lbt | but if you don't work with it and within it then you can't influence it | 00:10 |
| lbt | and *I* believe the people involved do want it to be free | 00:10 |
| lbt | dcordes: if it's my project then you bow down to me. | 00:11 |
| lbt | until you earn the right to hold your head up... | 00:11 |
| jebba | i understand the rpm/deb type compromises. It just has to be done either/or. But FLOSS projects should be using FLOSS, and this shows that they are more than happy to compromise there too. | 00:11 |
| lbt | feel free to pop onto lkml and give them your opinion from cold | 00:11 |
| lbt | jebba: I am not happy about it | 00:12 |
| lbt | but I understand it | 00:12 |
| lbt | and honestly I'd rather they kept the squealing masses on the forum happy | 00:12 |
| jebba | i mean, WTF was the big rush to get the forums up anyway? There's already places on talk.maemo.org for meego. We dont even have code yet. They certainly could have put a week into tracking down some phpBB admins (e.g. asking on their MLs) instead of rushing off to some non-free shit. | 00:12 |
| jebba | what's LKML have to do with it? | 00:13 |
| lbt | talking to dcordes, sorry | 00:13 |
| lbt | they could have tracked down some php dude | 00:13 |
| lbt | but Reggie has sweated blood for maemo for years | 00:14 |
| dcordes | My answer is: Not me. I won't be the donkey for some economists who are trying to make me do what is best for their customers | 00:14 |
| lbt | should he be dumped? | 00:14 |
| jebba | not him, the nonfree software should be dumped for sure though. It is the perfect oportunity to switch. | 00:14 |
| lbt | Sadly Reggie is responsible for making the forums work. | 00:15 |
| jebba | for maemo, not meego. | 00:15 |
| lbt | and he's got to assess the risk of a switch | 00:15 |
| jebba | well, now he is for meego too | 00:15 |
| lbt | yeah - but they're merging, not closing | 00:15 |
| lbt | It's a big factor | 00:15 |
| jebba | all of those arguments mean 0 to me though, you know? | 00:15 |
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| jebba | it's not a merge, its a new forum. | 00:15 |
| lbt | yeah, it's a forum.... woop-de-doo | 00:16 |
| * lbt counts the # forums on the internet | 00:16 | |
| jebba | exactly. Whoop de doo. A fucking forum. Something that could *so easily* be done freely. | 00:16 |
| * lbt counts the number of OSS mobile device stacks | 00:16 | |
| lbt | it's not easy | 00:16 |
| jebba | i'm sick of this shit. anyway, good luck. | 00:16 |
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| leinir | Yeah! Who needs pragmatism anyway! ;) | 00:20 |
| mikhas | sigh | 00:21 |
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| leinir | add a "le" in front of that and you're there | 00:22 |
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| * RST38h yawns | 00:24 | |
| * RST38h wonders what the hell prevented the maemo/meego management from maintaining meego forums at tmo | 00:25 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | ack | 00:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | except for the 770 farm :-P | 00:26 |
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| Myrtti | RST38h: the fact that it would look like Nokia is running the show, I'd guess. It's a gentle balance. | 00:27 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: You can have two completely separate themes for Maemo and Meego, it is all cosmetic =) | 00:28 |
| RST38h | And with Reggie administering it anyway... :) | 00:29 |
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| byrdmeln | just put the boards on ezboards and be done with it :P | 00:30 |
| RST38h | Google Groups! | 00:30 |
| * RST38h ducks | 00:30 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | blargh | 00:31 |
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| dcordes | RST38h, hahaha I opened a wave do you want an invite ? | 00:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | hell, if that's the problems we got with meego, than I really hope that's all the problems we got | 00:38 |
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| jrayhawk | Nokia would almost certainly like to avoid significant disruption until Maemo 6 is out the door, which is why meego is long on planning and short on action. | 00:53 |
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| jrayhawk | It is, at the moment, a means of getting community input such that Intel/Nokia can't be accused of excluding the community from planning when Maemo shuts winds down and Meego winds up. | 00:55 |
| RST38h | How cunning! | 00:56 |
| lbt | and? | 00:56 |
| RST38h | can see the Evil Plan clearly now! | 00:57 |
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| * lbt squints and realises that the world is in fact blurry | 00:59 | |
| jrayhawk | I'm just a little concerned about this attitude that Meego is evil because of various reasonings involving it 1) not being maemo and 2) not really doing much yet are really only serving to convince people in charge that the community are not safe to make sane decisions for the future of the platform. | 01:00 |
| lbt | *nod* | 01:01 |
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| lbt | although I think "the people in charge" are making a reasonable case for community control <grin> | 01:01 |
| jrayhawk | Announcing meego months ago instead of a year from now has been massively inconvenient for development and marketing momentum, and was really only done to get the community involved *very early*. | 01:02 |
| * lbt is part of the choir | 01:03 | |
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| dcordes | lbt, what is yon role in the meego ? | 01:11 |
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| jrayhawk | Concluding that Meego isn't listening to the community because things aren't getting done the way you'd like is rather childish at this point given the trouble and expense they've gone to to involve us. | 01:14 |
| jrayhawk | This isn't directed at you or anything lbt, just the attitude of some of the loudest community members. | 01:14 |
| RST38h | jrayhawk: Let me guess: you have not been part of the maemo community? | 01:16 |
| RST38h | A new guy? | 01:16 |
| CosmoHill | get him! | 01:17 |
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| jrayhawk | I've been on the periphery since getting an N810; why? | 01:18 |
| lbt | dcordes: I am one of the Mer devs and Nokia asked me to work for them setting up some build infrastructure. | 01:18 |
| RST38h | jrayhawk: 'cause you seem to be so eagerly optimistic, very unusual for someone who has been with the maemo community for a long time | 01:19 |
| jrayhawk | I'm an incredibly bitter person and even I can see that folks like Arjan give more of a shit about open development than Maemo ever did. | 01:21 |
| dcordes | lbt, git clone git://git.openembedded.org/openembedded.git openembedded | 01:21 |
| RST38h | Oh well, you will have your chance to get bitter all over again :) | 01:21 |
| dcordes | lbt, job done !!!!1 | 01:22 |
| lbt | dcordes: I used to use OE and considered it for Mer | 01:23 |
| lbt | in the end OBS was a better choice as a build manager | 01:23 |
| dcordes | lbt, why? | 01:23 |
| dcordes | Mer=Meego ? | 01:24 |
| lbt | it uses native build tools | 01:24 |
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| lbt | and it does dependency based builds in a clean chroot | 01:24 |
| lbt | Mer != Meego although Meego seems to promise most of Mer's aspirations | 01:24 |
| lbt | http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer | 01:25 |
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| dcordes | old terminology. new project | 01:25 |
| dcordes | confusing | 01:25 |
| dcordes | but openembedded so clean, so complete, so well maintained. | 01:26 |
| lbt | so... unique | 01:26 |
| dcordes | it is the best in class cross build system | 01:26 |
| lbt | so.... too late | 01:26 |
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| lbt | we don't want/need a cross build system | 01:27 |
| lbt | we needed a build system manager/scheduler | 01:27 |
| lbt | oe isn't | 01:27 |
| dcordes | hä? | 01:27 |
| dcordes | sorry let me read the wiki page. | 01:28 |
| dcordes | you have to click on community on the meego frontpage. but the frontpage should be community in a FOSS project | 01:28 |
| dcordes | imho | 01:28 |
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| dcordes | and not what technical steering manager thought today | 01:28 |
| dcordes | I suspect that one reason for not choosing openembedded is that it's important to reinvent the wheel in such a project in order to not feel small | 01:31 |
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| CosmoHill | night night | 01:34 |
| lbt | night | 01:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | Too bad the CMS issue never had any actual discussion | 01:34 |
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| * GeneralAntilles isn't particularly looking forward to the Drupal future. | 01:34 | |
| dcordes | lbt, so you are basing on opensuse | 01:35 |
| lbt | dcordes: yes, that's right. It's a plot. | 01:35 |
| RST38h | General: At least it is not Midgard | 01:36 |
| Myrtti | I thought mer was based on ubuntu...? | 01:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, quite honestly, I prefer Midgard to Drupal. | 01:36 |
| lbt | Myrtti: he had a clue but lost it ;) | 01:36 |
| RST38h | General: Drupal is THAT bad? | 01:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, I've never enjoyed using it. | 01:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | I can't much say that I LIKE Midgard | 01:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I prefer it to Drupal. | 01:37 |
| Myrtti | lbt: right, so it wasn't me who had lost my marbles then. good to know | 01:37 |
| lbt | not even close | 01:37 |
| dcordes | lbt, it seems bloated | 01:37 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/09/opensuse_build_service_arm/ is decent background. | 01:37 |
| Myrtti | who likes CMS's anyway | 01:37 |
| lbt | Myrtti: ^^ see | 01:37 |
| Myrtti | they're ALL crap | 01:37 |
| RST38h | true | 01:37 |
| lbt | dcordes: you want to fight bloated? try this: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html | 01:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, a big part of it though is that I'm really not happy to see us inherit a bug of Moblin infrastructure sans discussion. | 01:38 |
| dcordes | lbt, I don't want to fight anything. but it's sad you folks don't seem very interested in any criticism | 01:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | RPM vs deb is one thing | 01:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | and a thing I can understand | 01:38 |
| lbt | dcordes: you're not criticising. You're ranting without becoming informed | 01:39 |
| lbt | OE is not the right tool. You were not here when the decision was made | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Status-quoing the CMS because moblin.org admins had more/better NDAs isn't a good way to start out a cohesive community. | 01:39 |
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| lbt | For a Debian based system to pick a tool from an RPM distro shows a certain open-mindedness no? | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | dcordes, you sound like a troll, quite honestly. | 01:40 |
| Myrtti | I don't understand where he picked up the OpenSuse thing | 01:40 |
| lbt | OBS was written by opensuse guys | 01:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | "7:28:47 PM dcordes: I suspect that one reason for not choosing openembedded is that it's important to reinvent the wheel in such a project in order to not feel small" | 01:40 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Just, FYI, that's not language that generally leads towards productive discussions. | 01:40 |
| * RST38h gets some popcorn | 01:40 | |
| lbt | and we use it for Mer... so he thinks Meego is opensuse based... | 01:40 |
| lbt | quite confused.... explains why he likes OE | 01:40 |
| * lbt ducks | 01:41 | |
| dcordes | GeneralAntilles, did I announce I want to be productive? | 01:41 |
| Myrtti | lbt: so because Mer uses OBS to build Ubuntu packages, Meego is built on OpenSuse? | 01:41 |
| lbt | yup | 01:41 |
| Myrtti | ... | 01:41 |
| dcordes | I'm just lurking around and ranting a bit | 01:41 |
| lbt | we noticed... | 01:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | dcordes, so you don't? Then kindly take your ranting elsewhere. | 01:41 |
| dcordes | before there were only sparta discussions so I thought I would give some thoughts | 01:41 |
| lbt | meh, he's kinda learning... but not getting much cred... | 01:42 |
| Myrtti | the logic is impeccable! I have to hand it to you guys | 01:42 |
| Myrtti | great fortitude | 01:42 |
| lbt | we try to be welcoming.... | 01:42 |
| lbt | although at times... | 01:42 |
| Myrtti | lbt, GeneralAntilles: you get 100 brownie points! | 01:42 |
| Myrtti | ONE HUNDRED! | 01:42 |
| lbt | \o/ | 01:42 |
| jrayhawk | three hundred | 01:42 |
| lbt | <3 | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Myrtti, can it be 101? I'm hungry. :( | 01:43 |
| Myrtti | you, Sir, have won the internets! | 01:43 |
| * RST38h wonders if there is anyone interested in getting a watch made of coprolite, on a bracelet made of american cane toad skin | 01:43 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, I'm quite certain there's at least one. | 01:43 |
| dcordes | GeneralAntilles, who are you to ask me to leave? | 01:43 |
| Myrtti | GeneralAntilles: I've got some nice salad if you're intrested. Romaine, rocket, frisé, normal lettuce, carrot, feta cheese... ranch dressing | 01:44 |
| lbt | mmm | 01:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ranch | 01:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 01:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | What is "normal" lettuce? | 01:44 |
| lbt | green | 01:44 |
| Myrtti | I've got some ingredients for italian dressing but no oil or vinegar :-/ | 01:44 |
| lbt | wine + butter? | 01:44 |
| lbt | kinda close | 01:45 |
| dcordes | lbt, it's all good didn't want to hurt any feelings. actually I'm looking quite interested forward to the meego output. so godspeed. | 01:45 |
| lbt | could taste quite nice actually | 01:45 |
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| Myrtti | GeneralAntilles: I'm not sure, I just bought some premixed stuff from Whole Foods Market | 01:45 |
| lbt | dcordes: :) and we did think carefully. | 01:45 |
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| dcordes | the highly critical attitude is caused by the economic interests behind things | 01:45 |
| * lbt has to go and hands his baton to GeneralAntilles....night all | 01:46 | |
| RST38h | dcordes: Skip to the main subject: Is ZOG involved? =) | 01:46 |
| * GeneralAntilles is economically interested in not wasting eye-ball juice reading rants. | 01:46 | |
| Myrtti | iä iä shubniggurath | 01:47 |
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| dcordes | well well have fun everybody | 01:49 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Gotta love when they save the vitriolic stuff for /msg. | 01:50 |
| Myrtti | I still don't understand how he made the logical leap to "Meego is based on OpenSuse". It's intellectually not valid. | 01:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | Myrtti, as far as I can tell, many people need new Linux distributions to be based on other, bigger ones. | 01:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | Makes it easier to understand, I guess. | 01:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | Even when it doesn't actually help understanding reality. | 01:52 |
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| DocScrutinizer | XP | 02:14 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Oh, Intel | 02:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | So unfaithful to MeeGo already. | 02:43 |
| Robot101 | oh? | 02:44 |
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| Stskeeps | morn | 07:36 |
| amjad | morning stskeeps | 07:38 |
| * Stskeeps ponders if to be depressed over the extreme polar attitudes over the forum choices | 07:39 | |
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| Stskeeps | morn tekojo | 07:40 |
| tekojo | morning Stskeeps | 07:41 |
| tekojo | fighting with GMA500 | 07:41 |
| Stskeeps | ah, got a booklet? | 07:42 |
| tekojo | Yes for a few days | 07:42 |
| tekojo | 3d acceleration just does not work | 07:43 |
| tekojo | 2d is ok | 07:43 |
| Stskeeps | powervr is a glorious thing :) | 07:43 |
| tekojo | we all love it :) | 07:43 |
| tekojo | been fighting with several distros on this thing, and am back to kubuntu | 07:44 |
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| * Stskeeps ponders idly how much negativity will appear on the list today over the forum choice | 08:08 | |
| Stskeeps | and yet pondering if vbulletin is per-se 'open source'.. | 08:08 |
| tekojo | well, it isn't, but it is the best choice on technical merit | 08:10 |
| tekojo | and as we are going to be there maintaining it...' | 08:10 |
| Stskeeps | it is best choice on organisational and technical merit, yeah | 08:10 |
| tekojo | sure there will be a lot of noise now, no question about it | 08:11 |
| hhartz | by the way, come to #qt-qml if you're interested in the DeclarativeUI offering in Qt and the QML language | 08:13 |
| Stskeeps | it'll be interesting to see from perspective if people will respect that a line has been drawn or not.. will be interesting to see as it will tell much about how TSG will be able to make decisions and have the project follow it :P | 08:13 |
| tekojo | hhartz interested, but at home with a sick child, maybe I'll hang on there and listen | 08:15 |
| tekojo | Stskeeps not TSG for the forum decision | 08:16 |
| tekojo | TSG is Imad and Valtteri | 08:17 |
| Stskeeps | yes, i know - it was just in general | 08:17 |
| tekojo | ah, ok | 08:17 |
| * Stskeeps needs coffee :) | 08:18 | |
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| Stskeeps | ah, didn't read the part where the door is effectively still open for other forum choices if people step up | 08:22 |
| Stskeeps | that may calm things a bit or encourage people to commit to getting things running | 08:23 |
| mikhas | too late for jebba to return, maybe | 08:26 |
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| Stskeeps | probably, but it is difficult to please everyone :/ | 08:27 |
| tekojo | can't please everyone | 08:27 |
| Stskeeps | that too | 08:27 |
| tekojo | the drupal forum would have been nice, but it is lacking in some core moderation features | 08:29 |
| mikhas | most forum users are not aware of such features => they dont care | 08:30 |
| Stskeeps | i accept the decision as i think it's better to concentrate on the actual meego code, but from a purely ideological point of view, the biggest plus point of a 'open' (i really don't like that word) tool choice would be that it allows flexibility and easy participation by outsiders.. not saying that the patches will come flying if it -was- OSS :) | 08:31 |
| Stskeeps | as right now you technically need to be covered by the license agreement if you're going to be working on the forum, which may not always be trivial :) | 08:32 |
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| tekojo | true, but we don't really work on the forum software, but this Linux distribution called MeeGo ;) | 08:33 |
| Stskeeps | hence my first sentence :) | 08:34 |
| tekojo | Yes | 08:34 |
| Stskeeps | the counterargument to all these discussions is anyway "gpl license of forum is restricting my freedom, why can't we have a bsd licensed forum" | 08:34 |
| Stskeeps | ;) | 08:34 |
| TigerTael | lol | 08:41 |
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| infobot | I herald you, my supreme master! Lead us into the light of your wisdom and power | 09:14 |
| Stskeeps | i really hope that was a netsplit and not the western hemisphere waking up | 09:14 |
| TigerTael | haha | 09:15 |
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| hhartz | Stskeeps: you know, the wester hemisphere is so synchronised... :) | 09:16 |
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| Stskeeps | morning lbt | 09:31 |
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| lbt | morning | 09:43 |
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| Anssi__ | morning | 11:03 |
| thiago | morning | 11:04 |
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| slaine | yo | 11:07 |
| Stskeeps | morn | 11:10 |
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| slaine | time for coffee and toast, brb | 11:10 |
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| encompass | Pardon, but is this a place to ask n900 questions too? | 13:10 |
| iss | not really I think | 13:11 |
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| iss | but go ahead and ask anyway ;) | 13:11 |
| encompass | I wonder if there is a place for it | 13:11 |
| iss | there is a channel called #maemo | 13:11 |
| encompass | hehe, I want to install rsvg on my n900 can I do that? | 13:11 |
| encompass | oops spelled it wrong :P | 13:11 |
| encompass | meego is easier to remember :P | 13:11 |
| iss | how is that spelled? | 13:12 |
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| janneg | encompass: since I somehow doubt you run meego on your n900 it probably makes more sense to somewhere else | 13:12 |
| janneg | #maemo for example | 13:12 |
| encompass | janneg: thanks | 13:12 |
| encompass | I just asked | 13:12 |
| iss | what is the program called? | 13:13 |
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| Stskeeps | janneg: meego is supposed to have n900 as reference impl | 13:16 |
| burchr | Stskeeps: right, but it's not even released.. | 13:16 |
| Stskeeps | burchr: :P | 13:16 |
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| janneg | Stskeeps: yes, but if encompass has to ask how to install a program I doubt he has access to that | 13:25 |
| janneg | if the arm version is already running | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | i really hope it is, considering it should come out end of month | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:26 |
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| * burchr hopes it will or he'll have tarring and feathering to do. | 13:36 | |
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| karlosos | so am i right in reading that meego tomorrow night is holding a meeting to discuss the release date | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | there's an agenda out | 15:03 |
| Stskeeps | not sure about release date | 15:03 |
| TigerTael | First I've heard of it. | 15:03 |
| karlosos | it was on meego.com on channell #meego-meeting | 15:04 |
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| karlosos | 8.00pm but not sure american or uk time | 15:04 |
| TigerTael | Sweet. | 15:04 |
| slaine | release plan not release date | 15:04 |
| slaine | 8pm UTC | 15:04 |
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| karlosos | but surely they will give us an idea though | 15:04 |
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| TigerTael | plan != time ;/ | 15:05 |
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| p30n | meego <3 | 15:08 |
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| slaine | my guess is that there's an IDF in April and we'll see Meego 1.0 released around then | 15:11 |
| Stskeeps | IDF? | 15:11 |
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| slaine | Intel Developer Forum or something | 15:12 |
| slaine | April 13-14th | 15:12 |
| X-Fade | slaine: Depends on with which UX, I guess :) | 15:12 |
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| Stskeeps | also, 1.0? | 15:13 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:13 |
| slaine | Meego 1.0 for netbooks will likely be the first release as that's when Moblin 2.2 was due | 15:13 |
| slaine | Meego 1.0 for handhelds might coincide with when Harmattan was due :) | 15:13 |
| X-Fade | slaine: Yeah, I don't see handset UX come out before Harmattan release :) | 15:14 |
| X-Fade | Although, it would be interesting. | 15:14 |
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| X-Fade | TSG meeting moved to Wednesday 24, 20:00 UTC. | 17:32 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps | 17:33 | |
| VDVsx | ah, better for me :) still dinner time :( | 17:34 |
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| *** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work | Blog post, Towards Day One: http://tinyurl.com/ylmt7fu | First TSG meeting 24/3/2010 20:00 UTC, http://tinyurl.com/yd86qba" | 17:34 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps | 17:34 | |
| * thiago updates his N900 | 17:35 | |
| arachnist | Stskeeps: what changed in the topic? | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | arachnist: TSG meeting added | 17:36 |
| Fatal | [16:34] :: Irssi: Topic: +: First TSG meeting 24/3/2010 20:00 UTC, http://tinyurl.com/yd86qba | 17:36 |
| arachnist | Fatal: what's that script? | 17:36 |
| arachnist | (name of it) | 17:36 |
| Fatal | topic_diff | 17:36 |
| arachnist | thanks | 17:36 |
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| Fatal | works really nice when people use | dividers | 17:37 |
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| CosmoHill | do do do | 17:40 |
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| aphex | ls | 17:41 |
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| CosmoHill | wrong window | 17:41 |
| sp3000 | cat wrong | 17:42 |
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| CosmoHill | i made up a longitude and latitude and put them into google maps | 19:28 |
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| CosmoHill | it turned out to be my brother's college | 19:28 |
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| thiago_home | it's better than when Nokia Maps showed me locations in the middle of the North Atlantic when I visited my parents | 19:35 |
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| CosmoHill | my nokia dosen't find my location very well | 19:35 |
| burchr | thiago_home: hah | 19:36 |
| thiago_home | hint: my parents live in South America | 19:36 |
| thiago_home | guess what it got wrong | 19:36 |
| CosmoHill | everything? | 19:36 |
| thiago_home | no | 19:36 |
| thiago_home | just one small detail | 19:36 |
| th0br0 | the + and - | 19:36 |
| thiago_home | yes | 19:36 |
| th0br0 | :) | 19:36 |
| thiago_home | it got the longitude right, and showed 24°N instead of 24°S | 19:37 |
| th0br0 | that's kinda fail ^ | 19:37 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 19:37 |
| leinir | D'oh! | 19:37 |
| thiago_home | btw, this was just the AGPS. After the GPS locked, it got the right coordinates. | 19:37 |
| ShadowJK | hm :-) | 19:37 |
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| lantizia | I know Meego will have Qt integration... what are the odd's it'll run Plasma or be able to handle Plasmoids? | 19:42 |
| thiago_home | unknown | 19:43 |
| thiago_home | better ask the Plasma devs how their proposal to have something that MeeGo can use is going | 19:43 |
| lantizia | Plasma Mobile is meant to be targetted at the N900 (hell they have it working, seen screenshots - but not a download link yet) | 19:43 |
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| thiago_home | like this guy: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/blogs/2010/03/16/bossa-conference10-and-plasma-mobile/ | 19:44 |
| thiago_home | I know, but MeeGo won't take it if it's not mature first | 19:44 |
| thiago_home | it's more likely that, in the spirit of Open Source, MeeGo just redevelops everything from the scratch :-) | 19:45 |
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| lantizia | thiago: :( | 19:45 |
| lantizia | thiago: I think theres too many "widget" format already... at least plasma attempts to be compatible with itself, karabama, google, and apple's | 19:46 |
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| thiago_home | so does current Moblin and so will MeeGo (I guess) | 19:47 |
| thiago_home | same as Maemo | 19:47 |
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| CosmoHill | grr | 19:48 |
| * CosmoHill goes to validate this code before he stops | 19:48 | |
| CosmoHill | there are 32 errors on my page, does it help me fine out what is wrong? no :( | 19:49 |
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| Aethaeryn | So according to the website this comes out "second quarter 2010"? | 19:54 |
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| burchr | hm? | 19:55 |
| Aethaeryn | Will there be an emulator or live CD I can play around with on my laptop to try this out? | 19:55 |
| burchr | first code releases are at the end of this month | 19:55 |
| Aethaeryn | ah, then the FAQ is out of date because it doesn't say that specific date | 19:55 |
| burchr | I'd have to assume there will be an easy way to toy with it, yes, but disclaimer being that I know nothing about what is going on | 19:55 |
| Aethaeryn | http://meego.com/about/faq | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder if Meego release means 'harmattan' | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:56 |
| DawnFoster | creating paperwork for stskeeps *ducks* | 19:56 |
| burchr | DawnFoster: he loves it really | 19:56 |
| burchr | he's got a curious masochistic streak | 19:56 |
| burchr | ;) | 19:56 |
| Aethaeryn | Which functionality is open source and which is Nokia-devices-only? | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: me and my wife are currently reading through a leasing contract for a car.. freenode paperwork is nothing compared to it | 19:56 |
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| DawnFoster | burchr - isn't that masochistic streak a requirement for work on open source projects? :) | 19:57 |
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| th0br0 | Stskeeps: ping? | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | pong | 20:03 |
| tybollt | ~pong | 20:03 |
| infobot | ~ping | 20:03 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: willed to take care of the meeting on sunday yourself? i have ... unfortunately had to change my plans for this sunday :((( | 20:04 |
| Stskeeps | can do, what time was it? | 20:04 |
| th0br0 | not decided yet, Stskeeps... http://doodle.com/wg3pp9yyxcmfk7sd?adminKey=&participantKey= | 20:04 |
| th0br0 | 9pm looks best (utc+1) thus, 8pm utc | 20:04 |
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| Stskeeps | k | 20:05 |
| th0br0 | will you do the announcement to the 2 mailing lists or should i take care of that? | 20:05 |
| Stskeeps | please do that | 20:05 |
| th0br0 | ok. any specific ideas for the agenda? iirc there were some interesting proposals on the ml | 20:06 |
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| thiago_home | Aethaeryn: MeeGo will be entirely Open Source | 20:06 |
| Stskeeps | even hw support on all devices? doubt it | 20:06 |
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| Aethaeryn | thiago_home: Yes, I was just wondering which parts of MeeGo will be device-specific proprietary extensions. In other words, Generic Meego Phone will not function the same as Nokia Meego Phones because Nokia will add stuff | 20:07 |
| th0br0 | anaZ: ping? | 20:07 |
| thiago_home | Aethaeryn: yes | 20:07 |
| Aethaeryn | So MeeGo itself will need to be extended to have similar functionality | 20:07 |
| thiago_home | Aethaeryn: MeeGo core is/will be Open Source | 20:07 |
| thiago_home | and everyone who wants to use the name "MeeGo" will have to have it | 20:07 |
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| thiago_home | additional functionality may be provided by extensions | 20:08 |
| anaZ | th0br0: hi | 20:08 |
| Stskeeps | i think it's better to have that discussion after first TSG | 20:08 |
| th0br0 | ohai. | 20:08 |
| thiago_home | like a prioprietary driver for some special hardware | 20:08 |
| Aethaeryn | yeah, I was just wondering what extensions would be necessary to have it run on hardware, that's all. | 20:08 |
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| Stskeeps | on a N900 battery would most likely be a closed component | 20:08 |
| Aethaeryn | Since obviously the N900's successor will have Nokia-only capabilities other devices won't have. | 20:08 |
| thiago_home | other devices won't be the same hardware | 20:08 |
| thiago_home | that's why they are "other devices" | 20:09 |
| Aethaeryn | I know. | 20:09 |
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| Aethaeryn | I guess I was wondering more what MeeGo (the open source shared bit) lacks, rather than what it has. | 20:09 |
| thiago_home | it's not supposed to lack anything | 20:10 |
| thiago_home | it's supposed to be fully usable | 20:10 |
| Aethaeryn | in other words, what would additions it would take for a generic hardware device to have similar functionality to an official MeeGo one | 20:10 |
| th0br0 | anaZ: one moment please. or rather, will / can you be present on sunday for the repository group meetingß | 20:10 |
| Aethaeryn | thiago_home: well, I assume Nokia will have proprietary extensions to MeeGo which it won't share the source to | 20:10 |
| thiago_home | yes, but Nokia will also have specialised hardware | 20:10 |
| Aethaeryn | since iirc Maemo has some proprietary Nokia stuff | 20:10 |
| anaZ | sunday? | 20:10 |
| Aethaeryn | right, I was more wondering if vanilla MeeGo would run on a generic smartphone out of the box | 20:11 |
| anaZ | why sunday | 20:11 |
| thiago_home | you can't expect MeeGo to run on every single hardware under the sun, out of the box | 20:11 |
| Aethaeryn | or if they'd need a separate "extension" project to do so | 20:11 |
| anaZ | is that going to be an irc meeting? | 20:11 |
| Aethaeryn | well, in terms of drivers, yes | 20:11 |
| Aethaeryn | I mean more in terms of smartphone functionality | 20:11 |
| Aethaeryn | software-side | 20:11 |
| thiago_home | but once that is past, then there shouldn't be any blockers | 20:11 |
| th0br0 | anaZ: yes. | 20:11 |
| thiago_home | all the infrastructure should be shared too | 20:11 |
| Aethaeryn | afaik, MeeGo is supposed to run on everything from phone to tablets to netbooks | 20:11 |
| th0br0 | likely at 8pm utc | 20:11 |
| anaZ | th0br0: fun | 20:11 |
| thiago_home | Aethaeryn: form-factors, yes | 20:12 |
| Aethaeryn | thiago_home: So are you saying that drivers is pretty much the only necessary extensions? | 20:12 |
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| thiago_home | Aethaeryn: but not every single tablet and phone that exists | 20:12 |
| Aethaeryn | Or are there things that MeeGo out-of-the-box will lack software-wise that a smartphone needs? | 20:12 |
| Aethaeryn | Or tablet... | 20:12 |
| thiago_home | if you take an existing S40 Nokia phone with its proprietary modem, don't expect MeeGo to run on it | 20:12 |
| Aethaeryn | yeah, I know | 20:12 |
| Aethaeryn | I'm just wondering the extent of MeeGo, that's all. | 20:12 |
| thiago_home | no, it's not supposed to lack | 20:13 |
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| thiago_home | it should be completely usable, provided the hardware is integrated properly. | 20:13 |
| Aethaeryn | so if I were (hypothetically) CEO of Generic Smartphones Inc., I could make a smartphone with just plain MeeGo as long as I make sure the hardware is supported? | 20:13 |
| thiago_home | yeah | 20:13 |
| Aethaeryn | And it should work as a smartphone without missing proprietary bits that only Nokia uses? | 20:13 |
| thiago_home | and weird enough, Nokia would want you to do that | 20:13 |
| Aethaeryn | hmm... | 20:14 |
| thiago_home | yes | 20:14 |
| th0br0 | anaZ: basically, what is most important at this point here is getting some more info on the repos etc out ... it'd be great if we could have this before the infamous Day One... at the same time as this meeting could work as a means of communication between the community and the intel / nokia guys taking care of at least some part of the repo, too... i take it that you're one of them? | 20:14 |
| thiago_home | Nokia will only mind if you manage to make a better device :-P | 20:15 |
| Aethaeryn | thiago_home: Well, I'm not really interested in anything commercial here, but I'm a software hobbyist, so I was thinking of maybe (at some point in the future when my talents are higher and MeeGo is more mature... or even just actually released) maybe teaming up with hardware hobbyist(s) and doing a smartphone... Kinda like OpenMoko, but with software that's actually used by more than one device and thus maybe actually has a chance of | 20:15 |
| Aethaeryn | Just for fun, really. | 20:15 |
| thiago_home | that should be possible | 20:16 |
| Aethaeryn | So I was just wondering if there were any possible blocks in making a MeeGo-based smartphone... | 20:16 |
| thiago_home | but the lesson we learned in Trolltech with the Greenphone is that "hardware is hard" | 20:16 |
| anaZ | th0br0: will try to be there | 20:16 |
| Aethaeryn | Like if Nokia didn't release some critical elements of Maemo into MeeGo or something | 20:16 |
| thiago_home | it's not about the software. It's about putting everything together. | 20:16 |
| th0br0 | anaZ: that'd be awesome, thanks. | 20:16 |
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| Aethaeryn | thiago_home: Well, I don't expect much to come from it. I just think the future is precisely in the type of devices that Meego intends to support (high end smartphones and tablets and netbooks) | 20:17 |
| thiago_home | Nokia will most likely not release everything. But those parts are probably value-add-ons (like the Ovi Store) or going to get replaced. | 20:17 |
| Aethaeryn | And I think it would be a fun learning experience to a student, that's all. | 20:17 |
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| th0br0 | so yeah, Stskeeps, i guess that means that anaZ could give us further information on sunday. which we could more or less work with, is that fine with you? i don't see much more of an agenda right now, do you? ofc, that brings up the question whether the meeting is reasonable at all but i think that the sooner we know the sooner we can do further planning ... | 20:18 |
| thiago_home | expect to see more than smartphones (mobile computers), tablets and netbooks | 20:18 |
| Aethaeryn | Ah, well, then there'd still be some work for a software-person in this theoretical potential hobby project. | 20:18 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: sounds like a good bootstrapping | 20:18 |
| thiago_home | Aethaeryn: oh, yeah, we're not doing *everything* :-) | 20:18 |
| Aethaeryn | Since Nokia would have things that MeeGo wouldn't have, but which many consider necessary in smartphones, there'd still be software packages to make | 20:18 |
| Aethaeryn | Plus the actual tweaks for the device | 20:18 |
| th0br0 | ok. good. i'll write up some e-mail then. | 20:18 |
| thiago_home | yes | 20:18 |
| thiago_home | also, the UI will be differentiated, will be "Nokia-brand UI" | 20:19 |
| Aethaeryn | and hey, if anything comes out of this, it'd be software tweaks that go upstream and benefit Nokia. | 20:19 |
| thiago_home | (hopefully not Symbian) | 20:19 |
| Aethaeryn | Since this project would be more a learning experience than anything else, I'd probably be 100% open source, so any extensions useful could go back upstream and benefit Nokia. | 20:19 |
| thiago_home | if a Cheapo Company wants to make an undifferentiated smartphone, they can | 20:19 |
| thiago_home | but so can the next company | 20:19 |
| Aethaeryn | Really, Nokia isn't being hurt by a non-company hobby project. | 20:19 |
| thiago_home | then you're competing on hardware pricing and on distribution network | 20:20 |
| Aethaeryn | Not really... | 20:20 |
| thiago_home | both of which Nokia excels at | 20:20 |
| Aethaeryn | If it's a hobby project, the price wouldn't be very profitable, and the distribution wouldn't be very good :P | 20:20 |
| thiago_home | if you have two devices that perform the same functionality (exact same), which one would you buy? | 20:20 |
| Aethaeryn | it wouldn't be "I want to take on Nokia" it'd be more like "I want to make a smartphone for lulz and learning" | 20:20 |
| Aethaeryn | obviously it wouldn't be consumer-oriented | 20:21 |
| thiago_home | sure, you can do that for a hobby | 20:21 |
| thiago_home | I'm actually looking at the commercial angle here | 20:21 |
| thiago_home | but as a hobbyist, you can still improve the "generic" UI | 20:21 |
| Aethaeryn | yeah, I know, but I'm a student at a university. I was just kinda interested in how usable MeeGo would be as a side project. | 20:22 |
| thiago_home | contribute that to MeeGo and, in the process, make the world a better place | 20:22 |
| Aethaeryn | right. | 20:22 |
| Aethaeryn | If anything, the real winner would be Nokia and any corporation who seriously uses MeeGo to reach a mass market. | 20:22 |
| thiago_home | and if you end up making something better than what Nokia has, well, that's Nokia's problem | 20:22 |
| Aethaeryn | If I ended up making something better than what Nokia had in the software side, they'd be able to use the code. | 20:23 |
| thiago_home | yes | 20:23 |
| Aethaeryn | And in the hardware side, the small companies get gobbled up by the big ones... | 20:23 |
| Aethaeryn | So that could actually mean reliable employment :) | 20:23 |
| Aethaeryn | Honestly, if a handful of amateurs outdid Nokia, they'd just buy them out. | 20:23 |
| thiago_home | well, the market isn't that simple | 20:23 |
| thiago_home | small companies exist because there there are markets for them | 20:23 |
| Aethaeryn | yeah, I wasn't seriously suggesting founding a company, though. | 20:24 |
| thiago_home | usually it's niche or differentiation, because competing on the mass market you usually have to compete on price | 20:24 |
| Aethaeryn | Just more a hobby thign. | 20:24 |
| Aethaeryn | *thing | 20:24 |
| Aethaeryn | And I'd either need to learn a *ton* about hardware or find someone interested in hardware in order to do it, anyway | 20:24 |
| thiago_home | anyway, my point was: there is room for competition, there is room for other companies, but this is not an altruistic project on Nokia or Intel's side | 20:25 |
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| Aethaeryn | oh, no, I understand. | 20:25 |
| thiago_home | they have business interests and a strategy to reach them with MeeGo | 20:25 |
| Aethaeryn | again, if I improved anything with this theoretical hobby project, Intel and Nokia would be free to take the source and incorporate it in their stuff | 20:25 |
| thiago_home | if you make it public, yeah | 20:26 |
| Aethaeryn | and make money without having to pay a coder, which then benefits them | 20:26 |
| thiago_home | you know, you'd end up getting hired | 20:26 |
| Aethaeryn | if I'd be any good. | 20:26 |
| thiago_home | Trolltech history was like that, "here's a nice patch for you". Reply: "here's a nice job offer for you" | 20:26 |
| burchr | thiago_home: well, that's the best way to go, really ;) | 20:26 |
| Aethaeryn | anyway, this whole thing would probably take years for me to gain the necessary experience, skill, and contacts and to develop something actually useable. | 20:27 |
| Aethaeryn | i was just wondering if MeeGo was the right thing for smartphone/tablet Linux | 20:27 |
| Aethaeryn | that's all. | 20:27 |
| thiago_home | or if you start improving MeeGo too much, the competition may want to hire you for them :-P | 20:27 |
| Aethaeryn | Eh, I wouldn't mind being hired by Google either ;) | 20:27 |
| thiago_home | "feel the power of the dark side" | 20:27 |
| thiago_home | or Google | 20:27 |
| Stskeeps | mobile linux is really a place where there's a lot of money but not a lot of skilled workers who don't have a job.. | 20:28 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: yeah, because it's hard to get some hardware to play with | 20:28 |
| thiago_home | laptops and desktops are easier | 20:28 |
| Aethaeryn | well, actually, mobile linux is one of the few areas where selling linux is very profitable. | 20:28 |
| thiago_home | but hopefully that will change | 20:28 |
| Aethaeryn | Because you use the money from the hardware sales to pay off the software development. | 20:28 |
| Aethaeryn | so you don't have to worry about selling a free OS because you're really selling a device and paying off the OS | 20:29 |
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| Stskeeps | i think nokia's primary reason for maemo.org is a base for recruitment :P | 20:29 |
| thiago_home | why do you think Sun open-sourced Solaris? | 20:29 |
| Aethaeryn | actually, I'd rather work for Intel than Nokia, probably. I don't know how much presence Nokia has in the US. | 20:29 |
| Aethaeryn | But I also don't know how much Intel does with software :P | 20:29 |
| thiago_home | Aethaeryn: also hopefully that will change :-) | 20:29 |
| thiago_home | (but that's wearing my corporate hat on) | 20:30 |
| Aethaeryn | I don't have a Nokia meego/maemo phone, mainly because it's hard to get one, and they only run 100% (3G included) on T-Mobile | 20:30 |
| Aethaeryn | and because it has some things which could be more polished. | 20:30 |
| * thiago_home looks at the channel name | 20:30 | |
| Aethaeryn | Nokia's marketing and sales strategy seems to be: Dominate every market but the US | 20:30 |
| thiago_home | you've come to the right place to get those things polished! | 20:30 |
| Aethaeryn | Anyway, I'm more interested in Meego as a longtime Fedora user... | 20:31 |
| Aethaeryn | I see the future in more handheld devices, and since I don't use iTunes and don't want to be part of the closed iEcosystem... | 20:31 |
| Aethaeryn | The only alternative realy is to play around with Linux like Meego | 20:31 |
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| CosmoHill | hey slaine | 20:32 |
| slaine | howdy howdy howdy | 20:33 |
| slaine | is lucid beta out yet ? | 20:33 |
| Aethaeryn | anyway, afk | 20:34 |
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| Clay | slaine: doesn't look like it yet | 20:40 |
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| slaine | "You are not authorized to access this page." | 20:40 |
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| slaine | parental duties | 20:41 |
| slaine | bbl | 20:41 |
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| Stskeeps | what's the best way in a spec to check if the build is for ARM? | 20:53 |
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| CosmoHill | any audiophiles about? | 21:05 |
| leinir | Nah, i don't tend to polish my gold connectors... but i do like my music to sound good, why? :) | 21:06 |
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| CosmoHill | i would like some opinions on this sub | 21:07 |
| CosmoHill | http://tangent-audio.com/00003/00065/00134/ | 21:07 |
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| * Stskeeps yawns | 21:56 | |
| dl9pf | Stskeeps: use the rpm macros - %ifarch %arm is your friend | 21:58 |
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| Stskeeps | k | 21:59 |
| CosmoHill | :) | 22:00 |
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| Hydroxide | hrm, I wonder how much nokia knew about the fact that intel is working with google on making an android tv platform at the same time as intel is working with nokia on meego (theoretically also intended for TVs) | 23:38 |
| Hydroxide | feel free to say "not appropriate for this channel", but at least it's not a maemo/n900/deb/rpm issue :) | 23:38 |
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