IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2010-02-28

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sarah93wow you should check this http://bit.ly/bFi9I400:24
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sarah93wow you should check this http://bit.ly/bFi9I400:29
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sarah93wow you should check this http://bit.ly/bFi9I400:31
sarah93wow you should check this http://bit.ly/bFi9I400:31
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MiXu-wow!01:11
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ShadowJKhm... testing btrfs on sd..02:03
CosmoHilldoesn't that have a SSD mode?02:11
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ShadowJKyes02:16
ShadowJKI mounted it with -o ssd_spread02:16
ShadowJKthe wiki said this is better for less expensive ssd..02:16
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ShadowJKI'm copying /var/spool/squid to it, it's a pretty good filesystem-on-flash torture test I've discovered02:17
ShadowJKahh02:17
ShadowJKdmesg is full of kernel screaming02:17
ShadowJKhung task detection02:18
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* ShadowJK ^C's the copy02:18
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ShadowJKSo, write speed is about 50 kilobytes/sec for minutes at a time, occasionally shooting up to 5 megabytes/sec for 10-20 secs02:19
CosmoHillhmm02:20
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arachnistsounds like kernel cache/buffering issue02:29
ShadowJKWhat kind?02:29
ShadowJKAny hints on how to solve it?02:29
arachnistlow on ram?02:29
arachnistand sd cards are not a real ssd, looking from the pc side02:29
ShadowJKsure02:29
ShadowJKBut I'm looking at it from the meego side ;-)02:30
arachnisttheir internal controller messes everything up02:30
arachnisterm02:30
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ShadowJKExcept maybe on high end netbooks there wont be ssd02:30
arachnistwell02:31
ShadowJKharddrives on netbooks probably, which is fine, but when you go smaller than that it's a tiny nand and a big mmc :)02:31
arachnistmy laptop has a 64GB ssd02:31
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arachnistbut it's far from low-end02:31
CosmoHilldamn you02:32
ShadowJKhigh end in the sense that the SSDs cost more than the netbook? :P02:32
ShadowJKcertainly worth it though... but they don't fit in small devices02:32
arjanif you really have a low low end ssd02:32
arjanturn on btrfs compression mode02:33
arjanthat way it does data compression -> saves bandwidth02:33
trip0you probably will want to balance the drive after turning on compression02:33
ShadowJKarjan, using a microSD actually02:33
arachnistfunny thing: my laptop is 13". back when i bought it, it was considered just a normal laptop, just a bit small02:33
arachnistnowadays, people tend to call 13" laptops "netbooks"02:33
arjanShadowJK: well "any slow in bandwidth storage" :)02:33
arjanarachnist: only if they also have a shitty touchpad and keyboard ;)02:34
ShadowJKI mounted with -o noatime,ssd_spread,compress02:34
arachnistarjan: it has a great keyboard, great trackpoint and a little bit small touchpad02:34
arachnistand yes, it's a thinkpad02:34
ShadowJKRunning a sanity test now...02:34
ShadowJK18 megabyte/s sequential read, seq write varies between 4 and 802:35
arachnistseems typical for a sd card02:35
ShadowJKyes02:35
arachnisttried comparing it to ext2/journal-less ext4 or vfat?02:35
ShadowJKext3 is on my list of things to try02:36
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ShadowJKOh this card's write speed... Kingston is wonderful..02:40
ShadowJKit has an area of 600k write speed02:40
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CosmoHillcyas02:46
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ShadowJKoh, some of the btrfs processes use alot of PCU03:59
ShadowJKCPU*03:59
ShadowJKWhen write speed is at 50kbyte/s SYS cpu time is at 70%04:00
ShadowJKbtrfs-delalloc-04:00
ShadowJKiowait is "only" 25% in that case :D04:01
ShadowJK100kb/sec with 99% iowait too though..04:01
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ShadowJKWell, rsync to nilfs2 took 16 minutes, rsync to btrfs on same device took 58 minutes :-)05:12
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itdocksi need to play with btrfs05:35
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ShadowJK2.7 gigs of data05:37
itdocksi want to muck with it on my fileserver hehe, just worried about bugs that'd cause kernel panics05:38
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ShadowJKhm, a few page allocation failures from kernel..05:47
ShadowJKorder 4... starts at asm_do_IRQ :D05:47
ShadowJKbluez though, not btrfs05:48
ShadowJK216megs (out of 512) free, but no order 4 pages :/05:49
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ShadowJKheh, running ext2 test now. It started out really fast, but it's getting slower and slower and slooower...06:33
* ShadowJK goes sleep06:33
itdocks:P06:33
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ShadowJKit's not the bandwidth, it's the IOPS :)06:34
itdocksalways!06:34
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jebbai got moblin going under fedora arm 12, but it's an ancient version of moblin...09:02
Stskeeps cool, how?09:08
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jebbajust installed "regular" fedora 12 arm and yum installed various moblin* packages. The interface is very much for a desktop though (e.g. small "X" in upper right corner to close windows etc).  Again, this is a much older version.  I have mock going now and have been able to run one package thru it so far.09:40
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jebba"ARM port is currently being maintained in the OBS project devel:arch:arm. " per http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support               But I don't see that anywhere in OBS  https://build.opensuse.org/project/list_public10:42
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th0br0hello everyone.10:45
th0br0jebba: afaik that's still password-protected.10:45
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Stskeepsjebba: moblin obs, not novell obs :)11:02
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th0br0heya Stskeeps11:12
Stskeepsmorning th0br011:14
BlicePeople waking up?11:17
Stskeepsyeah.. slowly11:18
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Stskeepsmorn david11:19
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th0br0Stskeeps: lbt we should really try to find some date for the first packaging meeting soon... or should we wait until the source release for that?11:35
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Stskeepsright - i'm available most of the week next week but i think a bootstrap meeting could be good to shape up the page, make it into an actual proposal and submit to TSG11:47
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th0br0likely so Stskeeps11:53
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Stskeepsi'm pondering to start a thread so we can get some procedures for WG creation going11:54
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wazd_e63Hello all12:12
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Stskeepsmorning wazd, qgil12:14
qgilN900hi there12:14
wazd_e63Stskeeps: heya12:14
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wazd_e63stskeeps: sorry for marina mod delay, have some personal problems :(12:16
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Stskeepswazd_e63: it's fine, my world is up and down with the whole meego thing anyway :)12:17
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wazd_e63Stskeeps: heh)12:17
qgilN900it was interesting to see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3TdoY868kc12:17
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wazd_e63Stskeeps: my sister adored my UI concept btw :) And if she says "fine" then it's genius :D12:19
Stskeepsthe platform wars will be won in the reference implementations.. i mean, if meego can end up being the typical system board vendors put out and let people build on, we have a winner :12:19
Stskeepscurrently this is minimal linux systems or android12:19
qgilN900probably, yes12:20
wazd_e63Stskeeps: android has some serious issues with all that custom frontends12:20
Stskeepswazd_e63: yeah, differentiation can sometimes harm too12:21
qgilN900if you are targetting an Intel Atom chipset the story becomes quite clear now: pick the Qt baseline and you can start already now12:21
qgilN900looking forward to see good support from other chipset vendors12:21
wazd_e63Stskeeps: you can expect anything if someone says "android"12:21
Stskeepshaving dual platform also makes it much easier for people to prototype12:21
Stskeepsdevelop most of your system for a atom cpu, transfer it to your resulting ARM device12:22
qgilN900there the Qt + Web Runtime machinery is promising12:22
wazd_e63Stskeeps: I think intel will have serious problems with atom in future because of CULV platform12:23
qgilN900The Qt team is used to support different platforms and still offer a single API12:23
RST38hA lot of people say that Android backend is *not* a real Linux12:23
AmbyStskeeps: yes, I would prefer a strong reference UI with enough customization built in that vendors reuse it instead of building their own12:23
qgilN900not that their work is easy but they are used to it  :)12:23
Stskeepsi wonder why noone is asking if Booklet is getting MeeGo12:23
Stskeeps:P12:23
RST38hqgil: Yes, Symbian and Maemo Qt APIs appear to be different. Any news on that?12:23
qgilN900and web runtime sits on top of web technologies also designed to be crossplatform since the beginning12:23
RST38hStskeeps: Sorry, you cannot just develop on Atom and transfer to ARM12:24
AmbyStskeeps: I've asked it! I want to buy :) Or I want to buy a Nokia Tablet 3G w MeeGo.12:24
StskeepsRST38h: worked in Mer.12:24
RST38hStskeeps: First thing that will kill you is going to be data alignment12:24
StskeepsRST38h: s/Atom/X8612:24
RST38hStskeeps: Second thing will be the performance tuning12:24
Stskeepsof course12:24
wazd_e63Stskeeps: booklet is kinda tricky thing)12:24
RST38hStskeeps: Atom, X86, it does not matter12:24
wazd_e63Stskeeps: long battery life but no serious gpu12:25
RST38hStskeeps: The architecture is different enough to require different optimizations and programming guidelines12:25
wazd_e63Stskeeps: aluminium body but terrible plastic cover12:25
RST38hStskeeps: I can easily do stuff like char *P; int N=*(int *)P; on x8612:26
RST38hOn ARM...ewwww..12:26
StskeepsRST38h: i'm not even going to discuss that issue as you'd win in argument based on merit alone12:26
qgilN900rst38h a lot of the trick is around Qt iterations12:26
Stskeeps:P12:26
qgilN9004.6 is a different game than 4.5 when it comes to Symbian and Maemo support12:27
qgilN9004.7 is in its way, then 4.8....12:27
RST38hStskeeps: Anyways, not expecting any particular benefits from debugging on x86 (after doing it for years though :))12:30
RST38hqgil: You mean, DUI/Orbit will completley change from 4.6 to 4.7?12:31
StskeepsRST38h: yeah - i guess i'm blessed by not having to do char *P; int N=*(int *)P; on a regular basis12:31
Stskeepsand if i had to do those things, i would be using u_intX_t :P12:32
qgilN900i talk about Qt itself, Orbit dui are "candidates for inclusion" from a qt pov12:32
wazd_e63Stskeeps: what do you mean "not having to do"? Every man should do it once a day :D12:36
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* Stskeeps is really looking forward to going back to his apartment12:38
Stskeepsthe work getting all the floors polished is finally done and now we have to move all the furniture back12:39
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crysazStskeeps: good post on meego-dev list. i do agree that as a newcomer i don't have a clue where to start from.12:59
crysazmaybe i'll just continue with qt basics in maemo environment for now13:01
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Stskeepscrysaz: yeah, i'm reading up on .spec, rpm and bootstrapping in rpm13:06
RST38hqgil: Ah, interesting, so there is Qt and there are DUI/Orbit, one of which (the better one) will presumably go into Qt 4.7 proper?13:07
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thiago_homenot 4.713:12
thiago_home4.8 or later13:13
thiago_homeor never. Not decided.13:13
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lbtth0br0: Stskeeps agree. It would be good to do some brainstorming of issues and scope13:17
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lbtStskeeps: for bootstrapping take a look at the OBS 'build' script too13:20
th0br0yeah13:22
Stskeepswazd_e63: hah, cool with marina theme - it shows bubbles when closing a window in switcher13:22
* lbt wonders who's around from the pkging group13:23
Stskeepsthe repo or the debian one?13:23
lbtrepo :)13:24
lbtX-Fade: jeremiah Clay are online13:24
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lbtthe meeting : http://meego.mkdir.name/logs/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-02-24-20.04.html13:26
lbtkinda re-scoped the repo-WG in my mind13:26
Stskeepsi will need to read that through..13:27
lbtof course I do see everything as an OBS shaped nail at the moment13:27
lbtMeeGo is merely something for OBS to build ;)13:27
lbtand the repos are what OBS makes13:28
* RST38h is mostly getting garbage when closing windows in switcher13:28
lbtand QA is how you get it through OBS13:28
lbtand dev community is about how devs use OBS...13:28
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jebbahttp://blog.chris.tylers.info/index.php?/archives/227-Mock-config-for-ARM-building.html13:34
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cenebrisAny news when first meego smartphones will be available? :)13:37
thiago_homeno news13:38
thiago_homeit will be the Harmattan device, but we can't tell you the date :-)13:38
Stskeepsmy bet is on 2012, right after the world ends ;p13:38
thiago_homeit didn't end, didn't you see the movie?13:39
Stskeepsyes and regretted it very soon afterwards13:39
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cenebris:D13:43
RST38hStskeeps: Did they at least get a chance to violently destroy the White House again?13:43
cenebrisI hope it will be before world ends :D13:43
cenebrisdo you think it is possible there will be Nokia smartphone with Meego in iPhone formfactor?13:44
RST38hYes!13:44
* RST38h shakes his 8-ball13:44
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thiago_homecenebris: as in "big capacitive, multitouch screen" ?13:46
cenebristhiago_home: yes, exactly, like Nokia X6 I believe13:47
thiago_homecenebris: that's what was announced for the Harmattan device13:47
cenebristhiago_home: without keyboard13:47
nid0nokia desperately need to jump on the gorilla glass bandwagon if/when they do tbh13:48
thiago_homeI can't tell you if it's going to have a keyboard or not13:48
cenebrisnid0: yes, this glass would be great13:49
thiago_homeI can only repeat what has been publicly announced13:49
cenebristhiago_home: you work for Nokia?13:49
RST38hcenebris: So, you do not want the keyboard?13:49
thiago_homeyes13:49
RST38hcenebris: And you want a large capacitive glass touch screen?13:49
cenebristhiago_home: ok, good to know :)13:50
RST38hcenebris: And I suppose you also want the brilliant 480x320-pixel LCD?13:50
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thiago_homesince the N900 is already 800x480, you can expect the Harmattan device to be no smaller13:50
RST38hthiago: Then it will not be able to compare to iPhone13:50
cenebrisRST38h: like iPhone - no keyboard, large display, perhaps 800x480 like N90013:50
RST38hcenebris: I see. Do you also want an Apple logo etched on the back?13:51
nid0hd2-sized screens are the way to go for phones in that style tbh13:51
cenebrisRST38h: no, I don't like the iPhone itself, but imho it's form factor is best for what I want/need13:52
cenebrisnid0: I agree - big screen and pretty thin device without keyboard13:52
nid0as almost all touchscreens are essentially the same form factor as the iphone, you're not exactly short on choice if thats what you want13:52
gourisn't entering data without keyboard to awkward on such devices?13:52
RST38hcenebris: Well, the funny thing is, N900 is exactly the same dimensions as iPhone with screen exactly the same size13:52
gour*too13:53
RST38hIt is thicker, due to keyboard etc13:53
nid0gour yes it is, personally I wouldnt want a phone without a keyboard13:53
RST38hBut it *is* "the iphone form factor"13:53
nid0but then I use it for data entry quite a lot, your average smartphone user doesnt13:53
* gour agrees with nid013:53
gouri want that phone is just one app on the device and use it more as mobile computer13:54
nid0I find the keyboard on the n900 restrictive as it is, being as I come from the 5-line spacious mammoth on the e9013:54
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nid0certainly wouldnt want any less than the n900's13:54
cenebrisRST38h: yes, but it has keyboard, that makes it thicker and personally keyboard only complicates everything for me (few languages, display keyboard is better in this case)13:54
RST38hSomebody, please tell me I am doing the wrong thing buying BH-90513:54
RST38hcenebris: I would not buy it without a keyboard, sorry13:55
cenebrisRST38h: tests says it is very good headset, although I didn't test it. Quite pricey though13:55
nid0you're doing the wrong thing buying bh-905.13:55
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cenebrisRST38h: well I would, hope Nokia can make models for people with different needs :)13:56
RST38hcenebris: There are x6, 5800, and its smaller sibling13:56
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RST38hcenebris: They should all satisfy you well13:56
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RST38hcenebris: Amazon offered the thing for $199, so I ordered it13:57
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RST38hNot exactly an economy model, but reasonable given the features13:58
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cenebrisRST38h: and are you sattisfied with this headset?13:59
RST38hno idea yet, will get it in a week or so13:59
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Stskeepsdear god, please dont let people turn my tsg questions into a meego n900 thread15:01
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RST38hSo, Stskeeps, will Meego run on N900? =)15:02
* RST38h hides15:02
StskeepsRST38h: hell if i know. it may run on n8âx015:02
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Stskeepsas its armv5 atm15:03
RST38hStskeeps: Gotta get rid of that PowerVR dependency though15:03
StskeepsRST38h: xfce ;p15:03
RST38hWon't be a Meego then =B15:03
Stskeepsheh15:04
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Stskeepsnoone statements make sense until we see code.15:04
RST38hBut really, all that clutterfuck does not perform any useful role anyway15:04
RST38hSome code is already in the repo15:05
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BliceRST38h: What repo?15:23
BliceI thought the only repo was the Moblin 2.2 one15:23
Blicewhich is not meego15:23
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RST38hI have recently seen a repository with some packages compiled15:26
RST38hCannot locate the URL at the moment15:26
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johna345Hi17:08
johna345What is the current state of development of MeeGo?  Is there a first release scheduled?17:08
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johna345What is the current state of development of MeeGo?  Is there a first release scheduled?17:10
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AmbyLatest registered user on MeeGo: http://meego.com/user/325918:49
thiago_homewhat about him/her?18:52
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* GAN900 hands thiago_home a "them".18:54
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Ambythiago_home: nothing really, just happy to see the number of registered users climb.18:57
thiago_homeare you sure it's sequential? :-P18:57
* thiago_home once devised a registration number for an association that used a complex rule so that the numbers would grow quickly18:57
Ambythiago_home: I'm sure there is like 5% dead registrations, but I'm rathar naive and thought that you were not involved in the numbering scheme this time! :)18:58
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* thiago_home finds a bunch of meego-dev messages in his spam folder19:03
Robot101not a bad start in some cases :j19:04
Robot101:)19:04
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CosmoHillApple mighty mouce + wooden desk = problems19:06
thiago_home14, including most of the TSG thread19:06
CosmoHillthey thiago19:06
thiago_homehi19:07
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qgilN900about MeeGo community...21:39
qgilN900... I was thinking that starting the Summit discussion is probably one of the most urgent things on the table21:39
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timeless_mbpfor when?21:41
timeless_mbpor is that on the table?21:41
qgilN900we only have a table, the rest is to be decided  :)21:43
qgilN900http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=4494721:43
lbtwill there be icecream?21:43
qgilN900granted21:43
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lbtI'm in21:43
qgilN900that's why21:43
RST38hqgil: What is the estimated number of Moblin people at the summit?21:44
lbtI wonder what the point of this summit is? compared to maemo ones?21:44
lbtthey seem to have been 'educational' historically21:45
lbtby september can we assume that much planning is resolved?21:45
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qgilN900by the time of the Summit (September?) I wonder what 'Moblin people' will mean21:47
qgilN900the Moblin summits were purely for developers, and even platform developers21:47
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qgilN900at least this is what I would guess from the fact of being collocated with the Linux Collaboration Summit21:48
lbto/ ahma21:48
RST38hqgil: The real question is about the ratio of people from different sides of the fence21:49
lbtRST38h: it is?  in 6+ months time?21:49
RST38hI guess, ideally, you would want an integrated summit with topics interesting for both sides, rather than having two summits side by side21:49
RST38hlbt: Yes. We do not know how this will look in 6+ months.21:49
qgilN900lbt if the first MeeGo release is planned for 2Q, I really hope by September (again: ?) a lot of planning is done and we are just increasing mass and speed21:50
RST38hlbt: I.e. I have some idea but not prepared to talk about it21:50
qgilN900rst38h" the fence" being... handset guys vs netbook guys or...?21:50
lbtI think there will be a lot more problems to resolve than at normal Maemo summits21:50
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RST38hqgil: Moblin guys vs Maemo/Meego guys21:50
lbt(cf the opt problem which was addressed last time ... I expect a *lot* of them)21:51
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RST38hqgil: But yes, you can call the first group netbook people21:51
qgilN900Moblin/MeeGo guys vs Maemo/MeeGo guys?21:51
RST38hqgil: My guess is that traditional netbook people will continue calling their stuff Moblin21:51
qgilN900vs all the nw people joining that didn't care much about Moblin or MeeGo before?21:52
qgilN900no way21:52
thiago_homeRST38h: the same way that traditional smartphone people will continue calling their stuff Maemo?21:53
timeless_mbpqgilN900: do you know the moblin summit organizers?21:53
qgilN900yes, the Intel guys21:53
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saftHi ppl, I had the idea to buy me a nexus one and install meego there when its ready would it work?21:54
timeless_mbpqgilN900: i was hoping for a less generic answer21:54
thiago_homesaft: you should ask Google that question21:54
qgilN900Dirk, Imad...21:54
thiago_homesaft: it's their hardware21:54
saftthiago_home: i did21:55
thiago_homesaft: what did they say?21:55
saftbla21:55
Myrttihow unsurprising21:55
saftthere is no awnser since there is no meego :P21:55
lbtsaft: meego is (will be) an open OS ... if you have open HW then you should be able to run it.21:55
* thiago_home bets that SnapDragon will be one of the supported ARM platforms (we have to convince Qualcomm)21:55
timeless_mbplbt: and the time21:56
timeless_mbpand the energy to adapt the various levels required21:56
lbttimeless_mbp: he's got time to be on irc...21:56
timeless_mbpoh! yeah21:56
thiago_homebut whether all the hardware that is on the Nexus One is supported, and whether you can flash anything onto the device, those are questions best asked to Google21:56
timeless_mbpqgilN900: so, personally i like montreal or toronto as host cities21:57
lbtqgilN900: what areas will the summit address?21:57
pupnikwill there be a break with classic X11 for meego?21:57
timeless_mbpmoco is using whistler (outside vancouver) for summits21:57
saftwell if you can use the hartware with the linux kernel who cares about google? its not like i asked dell if i could install linux on my laptop?!21:57
lbtthere's so much new stuff that I wonder if it needs to be longer21:57
qgilN900lbt: it's *our* summit, so we decide21:57
timeless_mbpbut they're for 'core' (roughly 400 core people!) only21:57
lbtyep... these are questions for us all :)21:57
lcukare we having a cagefight?21:57
* w00t tags lcuk 21:58
w00tyou're it ;)21:58
thiago_homepupnik: no, not until there's something better than X11 anyway21:58
lcukdamn!21:58
timeless_mbppupnik: what do you mean break?21:58
* lcuk tags pupnik 21:58
w00t(evening all)21:58
timeless_mbplike using qtopia? :)21:58
lbto/ w00t21:58
saftlcuk: the atmosphere seems loaded somehow...21:58
pupnikconference someplace reasonably cheap and free of hassles pls21:58
thiago_homeno, not Qtopia21:58
thiago_homebut QWS, who knows21:58
* w00t reads scrollback21:58
thiago_homemaybe Lighthouse21:58
lbtpupnik: Amsterdam... (ask lcuk)21:58
qgilN900it's becoming more difficult to define "cheap" when Europe/America seem more balanced in MeeGo21:59
lbtnot Qtopia? we thought that was the future...  wow..... deal-breaker21:59
pupnikthe amsterdam venue was very nice21:59
lcukim serious about video linkups21:59
thiago_homeQtopia was EOL'ed one year ago21:59
qgilN900I also wonder what might come out from Asia, since Intel has plenty of partners there...21:59
thiago_homeQWS/Lighthouse, who knos21:59
* lbt stops teasing thiago_home21:59
w00tthiago_home: technically, it's community support, isn't it?21:59
thiago_homeright, EOL'ed as a product21:59
ljpwhat do you mean? qtopia is really the secret future21:59
timeless_mbpthiago: aww, i'm sure we could resurrect it!22:00
pupnikwho here has contact to intel/moblin?  what do those guys want?22:00
w00ttimeless_mbp: die in a fire22:00
RST38hpupnik: I will go for money =)22:00
timeless_mbpw00t: oh, i have no love for Qtopia22:00
w00thehe22:00
qgilN900want about what? Ice cream as well, I guess22:00
lbtpupnik: the problem with intel/moblin is they don't have the same kind of community maemo had22:00
RST38hpupnik: Dunno about the rest22:00
ljptimeless_mbp: development of qtopia is still ongoing for the openmoko phone22:00
lcukdid anybody manage to find/build a moblin image for pentium m chipsets?22:00
timeless_mbpbut it seemed like a stupid question, so it deserved a stupid answer22:00
RST38hlcuk: no22:00
timeless_mbpljp: isn't openmoko dead? :)22:00
qgilN900lbt that is not a problem but an advantage22:01
RST38hlcuk: although you may try Moblin122:01
ljptimeless_mbp: the community is still thriving, companies still sell updated hardware22:01
lbtqgilN900: yeah s/problem/thing/22:01
saftwell its quite funny here...22:01
pupnikwell heck, make it somewhere in europe if possible.  i think that will get best attendance22:01
w00tlbt: not so sure that's a problem, in some ways, it means there's less directions things can be pulled in22:01
timeless_mbpqgilN900: we're still assuming a 3 day weekend summit?22:01
* lcuk watches the shadows vs vorlons having a massive megabattle22:01
lbtwe don't know (until they tell us) what they'd like to focus on22:01
qgilN900summit: we need to rethink everything22:02
lbtmultiple device family support22:02
RST38hqgil: Will there new SDK / hardware in time for the summit?22:02
lbtROFL22:02
RST38hthere [be] new22:02
qgilN900it might even make sense to have a GUADEC-likev model, with certain days for core developers and some days for a wider audience22:03
* lbt passes qgilN900 a magic 8-ball22:03
* thiago_home suggests Munich22:03
* timeless_mbp frowns22:03
* w00t suggests his living room22:03
timeless_mbpHEL to YYZ for 9/23 to 9/27 is ~900USD22:03
qgilN900rst38h new sdk for sure. read again: MeeGo release in 2Q22:03
thiago_homeif you put it next to Qt Dev Days again, at least make it the same city :-)22:03
RST38hAha, cool22:03
* RST38h suggests Moscow22:04
timeless_mbpthiago: yeah that was fail22:04
qgilN900hardware... I guess there will be at least an Atom refverence hardware22:04
pupnikany advantage to piggyback it to a wider linux event?22:04
lbtthiago_home: linking with a Qt may be an idea22:04
* ljp suggests Brisbane22:04
* RST38h Although hotel costs are probably gonna be prohibitively high22:04
timeless_mbphrm, HEOL to SFO for 9/23 to 9/27 is ~900USD (but prices go up faster)22:04
thiago_homeyeah, I'd love to go to Brisbane22:04
timeless_mbps/HEOL/HEL/22:04
infobottimeless_mbp meant: hrm, HEL to SFO for 9/23 to 9/27 is ~900USD (but prices go up faster)22:04
thiago_homeit snowed last year in MUC22:04
lcukqgilN900, to ease some of the work for the smaller talks, barcamps have a method where plans for them are posted on a board on the day22:04
lcukjust open slots22:04
timeless_mbpfwiw, HEL pretty much sucks as a point of origin22:04
lbtplan video team in advance... :)22:05
thiago_homeso does OSL22:05
timeless_mbpok, HEL to YVR for 9/23 to 9/27 has a base of >1350USD22:05
timeless_mbpwhich i think means YVR is out :(22:05
* lbt was super-impressed with the Debconf live videostreaming...22:05
thiago_homegoing to PDX in one week will require 2 stops22:05
qgilN900lcuk, call me traditional but before I'd like to agree on scope, audience, location and dates  :)22:05
timeless_mbp(well, 2stop base of >1050USD)22:05
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qgilN900then we know we can of beast we have creeated22:05
* w00t would concur with qgilN900 really22:06
timeless_mbpqgilN900: =~ s/creeated/created/22:06
lcukqgilN900, of course, but opening a couple of rooms and being freeform for that purpose doesnt harm?22:06
timeless_mbpHEL to SEA is ~900USD22:06
w00tdiscussing the how before the what seems a little erk22:06
timeless_mbpi'm quite happy w/ SEA also22:06
* lbt thinks the scope could be more than just the attendees22:06
lcukopen conference22:06
thiago_homeunconference22:06
lbtand that's an important starting point22:06
w00tlbt: in what way?22:06
timeless_mbpok, so roughly crossing the pond from HEL has a 900USD base price w/ a penalty to go to YVR22:06
RST38hOne thing I know for sure is that dividing scope into Maemo and Meego parts is wrong22:06
lbtwell, meego 'community' could be much bigger than maemo22:07
qgilN900rst38h that's for sure22:07
RST38hBetter intertwine things, even although it may feel artificial at times22:07
lbtand there will be a lot of people we should include22:07
timeless_mbpooh22:07
lbtwe have technology to support that22:07
lbtvirtual attendanve22:07
timeless_mbpHEL to CHI gets me <800USD base22:07
w00tright22:07
w00tof course, thats a sensible idea22:07
thiago_homeCHI?22:07
lbttimeless_mbp: stop posting prices please22:07
timeless_mbpthiago: Chicago22:07
thiago_homeah, ORD22:08
timeless_mbpnot sure which airport22:08
* thiago_home will be there in about 10 days22:08
timeless_mbpit might be Midway22:08
timeless_mbpBOS is about the same as CHI22:08
qgilN900US can be a pain for visas for many people22:08
thiago_homeBoston is a great deal closer22:08
timeless_mbpthiago: it only saved about 100USD22:08
lbtso should the summit primarily focus on the attendees or should it aim to provide info for the non-attending community too?22:08
w00tqgilN900: not to mention the generally quite strict border control22:08
thiago_homeyeah, I'll have to renew my visa for the US this year22:08
timeless_mbpwhich all things considered is trivial22:08
ljpAustralia it is then!22:08
thiago_homeI need visa for Australia too22:09
arjancan we do hawaii22:09
bfreehow about Ireland :-p  (mildly serious as it's "between" EU and US)22:09
thiago_homeand for Canada22:09
thiago_homebfree: Iceland22:09
timeless_mbparjan: can you sponsor everyone?22:09
RST38hCanada is also relatively strict AFAIK22:09
pupnikgood idea bfree22:09
RST38hIreland may not be such a bad idea22:09
lcuknorthpole22:09
pupnik(selfish but good) :)22:09
lcukeverybody head north22:09
* timeless_mbp ponders22:09
lbtnot London!22:09
thiago_homeDublin was nice in 200622:09
w00tlbt: er.. I'm still a little confused by what you quite mean - obviously, the more eyes on and attention the better, but focus in what sense?22:09
RST38hSpain?22:09
RST38hPortugal?22:10
RST38hBoth should be relatively cheap22:10
qgilN900so we have platform developers (high % of professionals and the rest can be funded)22:10
thiago_homeGran Canaria again?22:10
pupnikalso good RST38h22:10
lcukfrance!22:10
qgilN900app developers are relatively easy to map22:10
* timeless_mbp ponders22:10
* w00t notes signal to noise ratio is starting to suck22:10
RST38hMay I suggest Greece?22:10
timeless_mbpRST38h: incredibly expensive from USA i'd imagine22:10
RST38hlcuk: You wanna deal with another transportation workers strike?22:10
timeless_mbpif you sponsor intel to greece22:10
lbtw00t: the content and scope could change if you included virtual attendance22:10
qgilN900and then contributors & lovely users everywhere (but with certain areas of density)22:10
RST38hAnything is expensive from USA.22:10
lcukhttp://pininthemap.com/maemo22:10
RST38hEspecially when donw before September 15th22:11
lcuklocations of a great number of the maemo community22:11
timeless_mbpRST38h: usa to LHR/PAR is generally tolerable22:11
saftFMO germany central in europe with multiple airports close to amsterdam, dortmund, hamburg and dusseldorf22:11
timeless_mbpCDG22:11
lbtw00t: it also allows for much more parallelism as it guarantees you won't miss anything22:11
qgilN900what about picking picking 3-5 with high density of app developers and contributor22:11
RST38hFrance is expensive + they strike a lot22:11
lcukqgilN900, the map i just posted has that info22:11
timeless_mbpRST38h: England has plenty of strikes22:11
qgilN900and then divide platform developers per areas, wherever suits best22:11
timeless_mbpheck so does Finland of late22:11
lbttimeless_mbp: rubbish22:11
w00tqgilN900: distributed summit? interesting idea :P22:11
RST38hYou can just as well fly to Moscow and rent a freaking river ship for the whole summit22:11
qgilN900and then good video streaming, life and archived22:12
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w00tqgilN900: provided it's all e.g. streamed online.. it should be good22:12
timeless_mbpso, seattle to athens is ~1050USD22:12
w00tgreat minds etc :)22:12
timeless_mbpnot so bad22:12
qgilN900this is really complex for organizers22:12
qgilN900but if you ask me22:12
qgilN900no risk no fun22:12
lcukberlin is a hub22:12
timeless_mbpw00t: um22:12
timeless_mbpyou realize we failed to do decent streaming across AMS, right?22:12
ljpI got it! there's a place called Internetland22:12
lcukamsterdam is, which other euro hubs are there22:12
timeless_mbpthat was what, two buildings?22:12
* arjan votes amsterdam22:12
arjan(nice direct flight from portland22:13
* timeless_mbp votes against AMS22:13
* timeless_mbp would rather ATH22:13
arjanand I get through customs easily ;-)22:13
* timeless_mbp has been to AMS too many times22:13
* lcuk is going to athens 22:13
* timeless_mbp hasn't been to ATH and needs to go22:13
w00ttimeless_mbp: with proper planning, I don't see why it's not possible22:13
thiago_homelcuk: FRA, PAR, MUC, London22:13
lcuklondon :)22:13
timeless_mbplcuk: same argument, been there, done that22:13
w00tlondon, heh22:13
thiago_homearjan: uh... not so _nice_22:13
timeless_mbpDublin would be better22:13
bfreean English speaking location is a bonus imvho (with the Dutch being so good at English I'd let them count as English speaking).   A country with a decent Intel and/or Nokia presence might make it easier22:13
lbtLondon is a bad idea22:13
* mikhas votes for berlin =D22:13
thiago_homearjan: Delta 767 without individual entertainment system22:13
pupniknaye on london22:14
timeless_mbpbfree: nokia doesn't have a decent presence anywhere22:14
lbtoutside london... maybe22:14
timeless_mbpso scratch that22:14
arjanthiago: I know..22:14
timeless_mbpIntel has a presence in .il, but somehow i doubt that's work for people :)22:14
arjanintel has a huge office in amsterdam ;)22:14
* arjan also will get to visit family ;)22:14
timeless_mbpmozilla has done mozcamp europes in Prague and Barcelona22:14
* ljp 's second choice would be Anguilla22:15
lcukthrowing in ;) doesnt help lol22:15
timeless_mbpthey do work, but i wouldn't recommend it for 400+ people22:15
RST38hthiago: hardly any of us require onboard entertainment systems, if you get my drift...22:15
* thiago_home knows the AMS airport better than he would have cared to22:15
pupnikwe can assume intel folks who are vested in meego can travel to europe i think22:15
lcukyou have to mention the museums and stuff22:15
thiago_homeRST38h: my N900 battery doesn't last the 10 hours if I'm watching stuff22:15
timeless_mbpRome is slightly better although from memory kinda pricey for hotels22:15
timeless_mbp(heck, Torino wasn't cheap)22:15
thiago_homeRST38h: even with flight recharging from the laptop22:15
RST38hthiago: Take two!22:15
qgilN900pupnik, especially rhose based in UK  :)22:15
mikhasprague would be cheap, too22:15
RST38hPrague sounds like a good choice22:16
timeless_mbpthiago: i fly AMS as a hub often enough22:16
timeless_mbpAMS, LHR, and FRA i think22:16
* thiago_home used to go more to AMS, but now more FRA and MUC22:16
thiago_homegoing FRA-DEN to Portland now, then ORD-FRA on the way back22:16
* timeless_mbp nods22:16
lcukbelgium has the strangest things about refreshment: http://liqbase.net/liq.belgium.coke.20100208_018.jpg22:16
* ljp has flown MEH lately22:16
w00tlcuk: mmmmm coke wee22:17
timeless_mbpljp: Norway?!22:17
timeless_mbpwhere in the world were you connecting to, and why was that helpful?22:17
* RST38h flies direct lately, not trying my luck with Delta or United again22:17
timeless_mbp(which airline?)22:17
thiago_homelcuk: huh?22:17
ljpdang it, there really is MEH22:17
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thiago_homeI meant, ljp22:18
w00tthiago_home: where in .no are you based btw?22:18
thiago_homew00t: OSL22:18
lcukthiago, the little munchin man is an iconic thing in belgium22:18
thiago_homelcuk: I know22:18
w00tthiago_home: ah, cool, I hope to visit there eventually.. I go to TRD a few times a year atm22:18
thiago_homelcuk: a huge disappointment, if you ask me22:18
lcuklol22:18
pupnika game dev track might be nice.  there are a lot of people i would write22:18
thiago_homew00t: sure, just let us know so we have the time to hide the Maemo prototypes22:19
thiago_homew00t: :-P22:19
RST38hlcuk: The name is Mannequin Pis22:19
* w00t shakes fist22:19
w00t:P22:19
lcukthanks RST38h22:19
RST38hlcuk: (and yes, that is exactly what it sounds like)22:19
lcuki know22:19
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lcukthiago, there are no maemo prototypes to hide :p22:19
thiago_homelcuk: sure there are22:20
ljpwe dont get prototypes, just cardboard look-alikes22:20
* lcuk gives you tip-ex and a new sharpie22:20
* qgilN900 must smile because no Asian city was mentioned and who knows how many developers from China India SKorea MeeGo will have quite soon22:20
RST38hljp: they should switch to ice cream22:20
mikhasI'll throw in stuttgart (ger), as well - good connections, and hub-y22:20
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RST38hlpj: makes prototype autodestruct after a while, plus you can LICK IT22:20
lcukqgilN900, of course, how do we break the language barrier22:20
ljpspeak in Qt22:21
RST38hlcuk: worse, how do you break cultural barrier?22:21
* thiago_home thought India spoke English, mostly22:21
timeless_mbpqgilN900: i could name cities22:21
qgilN900why didn't you mention language and culture mentioning all those cities before?22:21
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timeless_mbpbut generally it ends up being Seol, or Tokyo or a couple of others in Japan22:22
timeless_mbpwe're unlikely to do China22:22
RST38hlcuk: I.e. what are you gonna do with 100+ Chinese who come to the summit, listen in silence, talk to each other quietly, then leave?22:22
timeless_mbps/Seol/Seoul/22:22
w00tqgilN900: I think the thing there is that we don't have that coverage *now*, so it wasn't on many people's minds, rather than deliberate exclusion :P22:22
RST38hKorea/Japan raise the ticket price to $1000+ for *everybody* involved22:22
RST38hCan we please avoid going there?22:22
* ljp suggests Cupertino22:23
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thiago_homelet's do it in South America then22:23
RST38hljp: Apple campus main lawn?22:23
thiago_homethen *I* get to visit family22:23
qgilN900"we" don't know which coverage have "we" now22:23
w00tqgilN900: did you miss the earlier map? it's by no means definitive but it gives some idea22:23
timeless_mbpljp: Cupertino is fine w/ me, but convention centers are mostly SJC22:23
timeless_mbp(santa clara)22:23
qgilN900which map?22:23
lcukyou are right qgil, i actually liked it in barcelona with the translation units.  it added a new aspect and understanding to it22:23
thiago_hometimeless_mbp: hotels do nicely for that22:24
w00tqgilN900: http://pininthemap.com/maemo22:24
RST38hqgil: the "now" thing is real easy to estimate, look at who is active on the mailing lists and what kind of hits you are getting at meego.com22:24
timeless_mbpthiago: not in cupertino22:24
timeless_mbpthere are only 3 or so i can think of22:24
thiago_hometimeless_mbp: Qt Developer Days has always been in the valley area22:24
RST38hqgil: "+6 months" is more of a problem22:24
timeless_mbpthiago: sure22:24
qgilN900that is a Maemo map, and I'm talking about MeeGo22:24
timeless_mbpbut the valley isn't just Cupertino22:24
lcukqgilN900, yes, but thats a start22:24
timeless_mbpit's mountain view, stanford, san jose, santa clara22:24
w00tqgilN900: sure. but um, much as I hate to go back to an earlier point, meego doesn't really have much of a community *now*22:24
timeless_mbpless so campbell and points west22:24
RST38hqgil: Ok, add ~100-200 people in Oregon and you get Meego map for now :)22:25
qgilN900Qt has a community, Moblin/Atom has a community, Asia plays a visible role for them. Just saying22:25
thiago_homeQt community has very little to do with the potential MeeGo community22:26
timeless_mbpqgilN900: i'm perfectly happy to do Seoul or just about anywhere in japan22:26
thiago_homeespecially the Developer Days attendence22:26
timeless_mbp(as long as it's a city)22:26
w00tqgilN900: I'm not discounting that there are other parties involved in this. Just pointing out that what people they do bring are dominated (currently) by maemo people, look at the community working group for example22:26
timeless_mbpbut as someone said, you're adding 1000{cur} to each flight22:26
timeless_mbpwhich at say 500 people isn't a trivial sum22:26
w00tqgilN900: you, yourself said "quite soon", not "now"22:27
qgilN900guys, if we are planning for an event in 6 months we need to imagine the audience (the MeeGo community) by that time22:27
w00tqgilN900: my whole point is, those places weren't mentioned because there is no huge representation from those places *now*, I wasn't making any other point22:27
timeless_mbpqgilN900: i'd suggest considering meego does asia the second or third year instead of the first year22:27
timeless_mbpif meego takes off, it will pretty much _have_ to cater to asia then22:28
qgilN900remember that I just suggsted a decentralized summit few lines above22:28
w00ttimeless_mbp: multiple locations mean that is less of a problem22:28
timeless_mbpi'm mostly opposed to decentralized22:28
qgilN900plus it's sunday night and I'm just challenging your clever minds  :)22:28
w00tI'm ambivilent to it22:28
timeless_mbpit's fairly important to physically meet people and do things offsite22:28
timeless_mbptalks over dinner22:28
w00tI'd have to see it in action before I could pan it, really22:28
lcuknot a challenge, just travelling salesman problems ;)22:28
timeless_mbpwalks and schmoozing22:28
timeless_mbpqgilN900: can you name any other groups which have done decentralized events?22:29
w00tI do agree that face time is important22:29
timeless_mbpi'd like to suggest that nokia-intel are not a good group to trial it22:29
qgilN900timeless, decentralized doesn't mean 400 locations with 1 person in each place22:29
timeless_mbphowever, if someone else has experience w/ it, that's a different story22:29
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qgilN900what about 1 in each continent to start with22:29
timeless_mbpqgilN900: i have no interest in schmoozing in HEL, thank you very much22:29
w00tbut .. with a divergent group, it might work, the main problem I see would be diluting things too far22:29
lcuk+122:29
lcukqgilN900 yes22:29
RST38hProlly too much of trouble22:30
lcukwith time crossover where possible22:30
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lcukand simucast22:30
qgilN900trouble for whom?22:30
ljpdecentralized place : 127.0.0.122:30
timeless_mbptime crossover across the pond mostly sucks22:30
timeless_mbpyou start w/ a roughly 5 hour gap22:30
RST38hExpensive to organize in multiple locations at once, gives participants less opportunity for close interpersonal communication, which is one of the main purposes of these summits22:30
w00tqgilN900: I wonder how well it would work out distributed locations *and* distributed times22:30
timeless_mbpwhich means one side is at 8am and the other side is at 1pm22:30
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qgilN900rst38h who can pay a transatlantic flight to attend a conference?22:31
ljpbut if we all switch to swatch time, it will be the same time!22:31
w00tqgilN900: as in, a month between them, a number of mini-summits, not one huge summit per year22:31
lcukwe just watched the olympics from the other side of the world!22:31
pupnik_few22:31
RST38hqgilN900: Intel can, every now and then :)22:31
qgilN900read back my idea of moving platform devs wherever convenient but localize a bit app devs and other contributors22:31
timeless_mbpljp: you're clearly on the 127.0.0.1 side of this, i think that means you earn a /dev/null route22:31
RST38hBut , on the other hand, if we all meet half-way, we will drown in the ocean :)22:31
lcukRST38h, well, its one way to make sure the idea floats22:32
timeless_mbpRST38h: nah, we'd land in BOS or ICE22:32
timeless_mbpBOS isn't bad22:32
HukkaRST38h: or we could have an arctc meeting22:32
Hukkaarctic22:32
* lcuk nods22:32
ljpok, how about Perth, that way _everybody_ has to travel a great distance22:32
RST38hljp: Same as Korea/Japan, but at least with edible food.22:32
lcukapart from some of the qt people22:32
w00tljp: nah, we want to force you to travel far22:33
pupnik_quim's suggestion could potentially allow a greater critical mass of attendance.22:33
RST38hqgil: ah, so the low level people (which are few have one summit and the rest has another? Makes sense...22:33
lcukare the kde gang part of meego community btw22:33
w00tbut more seriously, I think that decentralising things is a good idea to at least experiment with22:33
w00tlcuk: depends who you ask22:33
timeless_mbpSEA to PER is 2100USD22:33
w00tI think everyone has a different background ;)22:33
RST38hPrague. Definitely Prague.22:34
timeless_mbpw00t: nah, bad choice22:34
timeless_mbpHEL to PER is 1900USD22:34
timeless_mbpso it's +1000usd on both sides, and fairly even penalty22:34
qgilN900rst38h or you get all kernel/core in one local summit, multimedia in another, toolkit in another...22:34
RST38hqgil: hey, hey, that is spreading 'em too thin =)22:34
qgilN900this way every place has a bit of platform / apps / misc contributors22:34
timeless_mbpqgilN900: that'd be roughly Kernel/Core in Oregon22:34
timeless_mbpand Multimedia in HEL22:34
timeless_mbpfairly pointless22:35
lcukbut thats just like the irc channels, and does not allow crosspolination of ideas22:35
RST38hkernel/core/base tools people do deserve a separate summit somewhere in Oregon22:35
timeless_mbpwhy bother having meego in the first place?22:35
HukkaqgilN900: though would that mean that moblin people go to one and maemo to other?22:35
RST38hBut breaking down the rest may not make too much of sense22:35
qgilN900hukka why, they overlap in plenty of areas22:35
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lcukhow long is the summit planned to be22:36
lcukare we keeping with same 3 days22:36
HukkaqgilN900: well, just thinking that by announcement core is moblin and ui harmattan22:36
timeless_mbplcuk: i think the operating assumption is 3 days22:36
lcukor because of additional details more22:36
w00tsplitting on nametag lines (like where you came from) is a bad, bad idea if you want a cohesive, unified community, and I suppose that is something that shouldn't be overlooked if there are multiple summits22:36
lcukwell theres greater things to talk about22:36
timeless_mbphowever if you're doing a cross ocean trip, it makes much more sense to do a week thing instead22:36
Hukkabut dunno about the arm core people22:37
w00t(at this stage particularly - you don't want to alienate people)22:37
timeless_mbpit helps you recoup cost on the flights22:37
lcukthat makes sense timeless22:37
lcukmanyt of the people who came over last time stayed longer22:37
timeless_mbpgenerally people who cross want to do 10 or so days, people who are local are able to do closer to 522:37
timeless_mbpdoing 3 is incredibly painful and fairly pointless22:38
timeless_mbpyou spend too much time jet lagged22:38
lcukmy point exactly22:38
RST38hCenter of the Earth then?22:38
lcukperhaps the level of discussions should focus on specific middle days22:38
RST38hEqually close to everybody?22:38
pupnik_also lets people cho cannot schedule a couple days attend other days22:38
lcukbut with events on either side which are for specific target audiences22:39
lcukas qgilN900 said22:39
timeless_mbpwe could do the bahamas :)22:39
timeless_mbpthat's probably closer to center :)22:39
lcuki'd rather not go to any small islands atm22:39
w00tlcuk: you *live* on one!22:40
* w00t ducks22:40
* lcuk kicks ur shins22:40
w00thehe22:40
timeless_mbplcuk: hawaii survived chile's earthquake, no?22:40
lcukindeed22:40
RST38hThat is why he does not want to visit any others, probably22:40
lcukthe logstics of bringing in many people from many places makes a city near a hub the ideal location22:41
pupnik_frankfurt is a hub22:42
pupnik_and i got rooms :P22:42
Hukkapupnik_: breakfast included?22:43
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w00ti'd expect a massage, if I was being forced to go to frankfurt again ;-)22:44
* w00t had a rather nightmarish experience there once when heading back to the UK from sydney..22:44
Hukkaw00t: dont use ryanair next time :)22:44
w00tHukka: hehe. I wasn't, and the airline wasn't the problem.. we got very very lost, and being jetlagged to hell probably didn't help that :P22:45
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w00tlastlog -clear22:46
w00tbah22:46
pupnik_not much vacationy flair.  but infrastructure is good.  dunno about dublin, prague, portugal, spain22:46
mikhasone is not like the other22:47
w00ti've heard reports that dublin is ok. not been there myself, and no idea if it'd scale to hundreds of people. ;)22:47
Hukkacopenhagen is a hub too22:47
RST38hThere is also Budapest22:47
RST38hAlthough I doubt it is much of a hub22:47
timeless_mbpi think dublin is probably still cheap for the next year or so22:47
mikhasit's a nice city though, that must count22:47
timeless_mbpit's recovering from a crash22:47
Hukkatimeless_mbp: ah, so athens then22:48
Hukkajust going into the nosedive22:48
lcukhelsinki22:48
timeless_mbpthere's also silicon glen ...22:48
timeless_mbpHukka: i think ath's nosedive makes it a bad choice22:49
timeless_mbpthey won't be recovering22:49
thiago_homeqgilN900: btw, let's remember together to discuss in September about community attendance to Dev Days22:49
timeless_mbpservices could easily be missing, there's a risk of riots and stuff22:49
Hukkatimeless_mbp: let's not get serious about that :)22:49
pupnik_looks like most folks are favoring someplace in continental .eu22:51
pupnik_how about a wiki with actual links to conference centers22:51
Hukkahow big it needs to be?22:52
Hukkadoes it really need to be a real confcentere, not just a hotel?22:52
pupnik_amst attracted 40022:52
mikhasyeah, but that was because of the dope22:53
pupnik_very hard to predict these things.  fosdem hat estimated a couple thousand22:54
Hukkadipoli-size, then ;)22:54
mikhasthat's why you have registrations, as early as possible22:54
pupnik_so a couple hundred seems a safe bet.  any thoughts?22:54
mikhasif the registrations indicate your location gets overrun then you can still relocate the event22:55
* qgilN900 feels after some conferences it's not worth growing if that brings less usefulness at then end of the conf22:55
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mikhascan you really control the growth of a conf?22:55
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pupnik_charge money :)22:55
qgilN900sure, approve only talks about OMAP kernel and you'll see22:55
thiago_homeDev Days is paid for and attracted 1000 people last year22:55
qgilN900or limit the registration to a number and you'll see22:56
* Stskeeps takes a deep breath and submits a response to the TSG thread and hopes it comes off as less mean :P22:56
qgilN900again, desired scope, audience and goal goes first22:57
pupnik_tough questions22:57
qgilN900let's define first what we want to get out of the first MeeGo summit, and then the rest will flow22:57
pupnik_come on folks, what do you want to learn?22:58
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thiago_homegood question22:59
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thiago_homewhat do people want to learn?22:59
qgilN900learn... and do22:59
w00tthiago_home: at dev days?22:59
qgilN900who you want to meet22:59
thiago_homeat MeeGo Summit23:00
w00tright, was wondering where the discussion wasgoing23:00
* w00t is only half paying attention now23:00
mikhasOSB, learn + do, finally23:00
qgilN900(no need for concrete names, which kind of people or roles)23:00
mikhasor is it OBS?23:00
lcukin one sentense summarise the most important thing you have learnt at a previous summit.23:00
mikhaslcuk, does it have to be conf-related?23:00
lcukwell thats what we are talking about23:01
qgilN90023:00 my cinderella time23:01
lcukwhat made a summit for you last time23:01
qgilN900bye!23:01
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pupnik_cu quim.23:01
timeless_mbp"* qgil mischief managed"23:01
mikhasbarcelona was great because it threw different people together onto defined problems23:02
mikhas(referring to that long weekend thing)23:02
lcukyes23:02
lcukthat was a remarkable working weekend23:03
mikhasit didnt actually matter whether you had the specific interest, it only mattered what you could do out of it23:03
lcukyeah23:03
lcukfrom what i gather everybody got something valuable out of it23:03
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Stskeepsotoh, the presentations were mostly nokians, were they not?23:04
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Stskeepsin maemo summit, thati s23:04
mikhaswell, then let's say that one topic for a meego summit could be UX, again =)23:04
mikhashands-on and everything23:05
pupnik_id like to get the best independent game maintainers there23:05
lcukmikhas, i would imagine having more time for constructive group sessions would be feasible23:05
mikhasoh yeah23:05
mikhasno slides23:05
lcukpupnik_, :) indeed23:05
mikhas=)23:05
lcukslides are important to some subjects23:05
lcukbut agreed, not all23:05
mikhaswell yes, but you know what I mean23:05
lcukmostly we have video out23:05
mikhasthis could happen before the event23:05
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mikhasI wouldnt mind having to *prepare* for the workgroups23:06
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* qgilN900 presses Thanks button for Stskeeps23:07
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pupnik_some wonderful folks here in freenode game channels - couldnt begin to list them23:08
mikhasgame devs, good point actually. dont they all have their own little frameworks/engines? perhaps one could have an engine shoot-out23:08
pupnik_a lot are using sdl and opengl23:08
RST38hmikhas: SDL+OpenGL23:08
RST38h(and no, I have no idea why you need an engine shoot-out)23:09
mikhasfor fun23:09
lcukpupnik_, ive been mucking about the the opengl es example on the maemo wiki23:10
lcukruns quite well :)23:10
pupnik_tcool23:11
* pupnik_ gets down to bread baking cheers23:11
mikhasanyway, graphics programming w/ meego, that could be a nice topic, for some of us23:11
thiago_homeis anyone taking notes?23:15
bfreeonly if you hold the powervr guys passports until they hand over some useful source or docs :-p23:15
lcukwell on the arm devices opengles is the way to go23:15
lcuktheres open examples on the maemo site23:16
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VLJhi23:20
VLJCosmoHill: i tried moblin 2.1 with mutter-moblin from trunk23:20
bfreelcuk: not just arm, also gma500.   I'm talking about getting hardware 3d support in to Meego (i.e. Free and upstream in Linux and xorg not "vendor extensions") but I'm sure it's not going to happen :-(23:20
VLJit didnt work with nvidia23:20
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VLJi'm quite out of solution23:26
lcukbfree, cool23:27
lcuki was looking at the differences between gl and gles and from what i can see its easier to start with es23:27
lcukand have it work on newer desktop cards23:28
lcukthan trying to take desktop gl code and moving it to es23:28
thiago_homeGL ES is a subset of GL23:29
thiago_homewell, the 2 versions23:29
VLJand GL 3.0 is a subset of GL 2 too23:30
lcukit may be a subset23:30
lcukbut es pretty much requires use of shaders23:31
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lcukyou cant take most desktop code without rebuilding the core texturing and stuff as shaders from what i was reading23:31
* lcuk felt yucky reading lots of iphone related posts - but they were very informative and have been over these sorts of questions themselves23:32
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VLJi'd like meego to work on nvidia card23:35
VLJon tegra ?23:35
thiago_homeQt does23:36
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VLJyep but moblin doesnt23:37
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thiago_homewell, Qt needs something in between the hardware and itself to run on :-)23:38
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lcukthiago, you come distinctly from a qt background on this and talk often of its open sourceness, does the security base and bootloader enter your mind in this,  ie is just having qt enough or will meego qt apps become a sub group23:40
thiago_homethe security is still something we need to see23:41
thiago_homeI have no idea what it will be23:41
thiago_homeI wasn't told yet23:41
* lcuk nods23:41
thiago_homeas for the bootloader, I couldn't care it's not open23:42
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thiago_homeit's only about booting23:42
thiago_homemost BIOS aren't open either23:42
thiago_homeI don't know if the EFI is open23:42
lcuksame here, but if the apps are compatible with qt it shouldnt matter of the bootloader23:42
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thiago_homeyes23:43
thiago_homewe're working hard so that no one modifies Qt23:43
thiago_homeit has to be the stock version23:43
lcuk:)23:44
thiago_homethat's the problem with the Community port on the N90023:44
lcukyeah i think thats understood now by most23:44
* w00t looks mildly confused23:44
thiago_homemy next problem is the UI layer23:44
thiago_homew00t: the community port added APIs and broke BC23:45
w00tthiago_home: are we talking about 4.5, or upcoming 4.6?23:46
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thiago_home4.523:46
w00tright23:46
thiago_homethe 4.6 brings back X11 compatibility23:46
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w00tI suppose that a number of the problems introduced were due to time constraints, but yes, they're still problems nonetheless23:47
w00t(it sucks that so often proper goals and product targets are at conflict)23:47
thiago_homeyeah23:47
w00tif by UI layer, you mean the whole DUI/Orbit/QML/? trainwreck, yeah.. that's certainly going to *be* a problem I think23:48
thiago_homeyes, I meant that23:48
thiago_homeI'm working hard to solve that problem23:49
w00tand also smacks a lot of the aforementioned product/platform conflict, btw23:49
w00tthat is good to hjear23:49
thiago_homeI have been for close to a year now23:49
w00ts/jea/ea/23:49
infobotw00t meant: that is good to hear23:49
w00tit's worried me for pretty much the whole time I've known about it, so it's good to hear there is 'official' attention on it also :)23:49
pupnik_do *any* boblin people chat here?23:52
pupnik_moblin23:52
ali1234yes23:52
w00tpupnik_: yes, but as I was saying earlier, they're a bit ournumbered, so they tend to get lost in the noise23:53
thiago_homew00t: my answer is QML23:55
w00tthiago_home: that's mine too, really23:55
w00tthiago_home: did CI finish integrating it into master yet? I noticed a lot of mess last week :-)23:56
thiago_homeoh, yeah23:56
thiago_homewe have only one build failure now23:56
thiago_homethe new libtiff fails to compile on Windows CE23:57
thiago_homebroken platform with broken C runtime support...23:57
w00tugh :P23:57
thiago_homeeven broken Win32 support23:57
w00tyeah23:57
thiago_homeI fixed Solaris23:57
w00twince is aptly named :-)23:57
w00tI'll give it a try myself, then, when I get my laptop back from repair23:57
thiago_homecompilation running 9h34 now23:58
* w00t blinks23:58
w00ton what hardware?23:58
w00tI mean, I'm hardly top of the line, and I can still do a rebuild in around 40-50 minutes23:58
thiago_homesolaris-g++-64-ultrasparc took 7h52, win32-g++ 4.4 Windows XP has just finished (9h31)23:59
thiago_homesolaris-g++-ultrasparc is still compiling23:59
w00theh.23:59
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thiago_homecurrently building examples/network/torrent. It's got a good full 2h left before it finishes.23:59
w00toh, actually23:59
w00tthat probably explains it23:59
w00tI omit tests and examples23:59

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