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| CosmoHill | 21:52:02 up 90 days, 0 min, 1 user, load average: 0.15, 0.08, 0.03 | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| daumas | oh, is it uptime comparing time? | 00:08 |
| CosmoHill | go for it | 00:08 |
| daumas | 16:08:00 up 104 days, 21:28, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.02, 0.01 | 00:09 |
| CosmoHill | give me 14 days | 00:09 |
| CosmoHill | ...after you reboot | 00:09 |
| CosmoHill | make that 15 | 00:09 |
| ShadowJK | 00:09:51 up 9 days, 22:27, load average: 0.17, 0.10, 0.1 <- my phone ;( | 00:09 |
| daumas | hmm. i'd have a lot of users upset at me if it was rebooted right now. | 00:09 |
| CosmoHill | it would be 360 | 00:10 |
| mikeleib | my record is 400+ days. I had to shutdown because they cut the power to the building | 00:10 |
| * CosmoHill shakes fist at long power cut | 00:10 | |
| daumas | sounds like you guys need to buy some generators :P | 00:10 |
| CosmoHill | personal best: 18:58:53 up 374 days, 21:15, 1 user, load average: 0.32, 0.47, 0.24 | 00:10 |
| CosmoHill | actually the UPS could have taken it but i shut down cos it was very long | 00:11 |
| CosmoHill | 2 mins later the power came back :( | 00:11 |
| daumas | how about MeeGo (Maemo/Moblin) uptimes? :P | 00:12 |
| CosmoHill | i'd imagine it would be in the hours | 00:12 |
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| ShadowJK | I had a month on my N900 at one point :) | 00:13 |
| CosmoHill | you just put it to sleep? | 00:13 |
| mikeleib | my moblin box boots in 5 seconds. I shut it down all the time | 00:14 |
| CosmoHill | mine goes NVIDIA! then doesn't work properly | 00:14 |
| ShadowJK | CosmoHill, it's my main phone too, can't just put it to sleep for a month :) | 00:14 |
| daumas | i've messed with the kernel too much so my n900 has been up to a week max i think. | 00:14 |
| CosmoHill | well with phones you leave it on and charge it | 00:15 |
| CosmoHill | my main phone is a SE k800i, it shuts down randomly | 00:15 |
| VLJ | what a shame that moblin doesnt support nvidia | 00:16 |
| CosmoHill | it's laggy | 00:16 |
| ShadowJK | nvidia isn't exactly forthcoming | 00:16 |
| CosmoHill | then you install nvidia drivers | 00:16 |
| CosmoHill | then the UI breaks | 00:16 |
| VLJ | yep | 00:16 |
| VLJ | I've heard that installing latest clutter should resolve the issue | 00:17 |
| tripzero | clutter shouldn't break on most nvidia cards | 00:17 |
| VLJ | but I didnt manage to build latest clutter for moblin | 00:17 |
| VLJ | it doesnt on gnome 2.30 | 00:17 |
| daumas | what version of the nvidia driver are you using? | 00:17 |
| CosmoHill | well it does | 00:17 |
| CosmoHill | on mine | 00:17 |
| VLJ | 195.30.06 | 00:17 |
| tripzero | 195 is unstable | 00:17 |
| CosmoHill | VLJ: from source? | 00:17 |
| VLJ | err 195.36.03 | 00:17 |
| VLJ | yes | 00:17 |
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| daumas | i'm using 195 on desktops with 9-series chips. | 00:18 |
| * CosmoHill needs clutter | 00:18 | |
| VLJ | how did you do that daumas ? | 00:19 |
| tripzero | what's the currently maemo5 ui done in? clutter? | 00:19 |
| VLJ | you used stock moblin live image ? | 00:19 |
| daumas | VLJ: Fedora :P | 00:19 |
| tripzero | s/currently/current* | 00:19 |
| VLJ | yep tripzero | 00:19 |
| VLJ | ho | 00:19 |
| VLJ | and there is no issue with panels ? | 00:20 |
| VLJ | in moblin ui | 00:20 |
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| VLJ | inside fedora | 00:21 |
| CosmoHill | so i need to recompile clutter from source/ | 00:21 |
| VLJ | theorically | 00:21 |
| daumas | VLJ: i'm using gnome on my desktops, not moblin/mutter, sorry. | 00:21 |
| CosmoHill | as far as i know I'm updated them | 00:21 |
| VLJ | but it's not that easy | 00:22 |
| VLJ | ho ok daumas | 00:22 |
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| VLJ | the moblin jhbuild is really crappy | 00:28 |
| VLJ | there is so much unresolved dependencies | 00:28 |
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| * CosmoHill grabs his laptop | 00:31 | |
| daumas | tripzero: maemo uses hildon/osso, which is proprietary i think. | 00:31 |
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| murrayc | daumas: libhildon is open source. | 00:36 |
| murrayc | As is libhildon-desktop. | 00:37 |
| murrayc | tripzero: It's mostly GTK+ based, with some use of clutter by the WM. | 00:37 |
| tripzero | the flick scroll etc seem to be ogl based | 00:38 |
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| murrayc | ogl? | 00:39 |
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| murrayc | Yes, the desktop uses clutter, which uses OpenGL ES. | 00:39 |
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| murrayc | Actually, I don't know for sure that the desktop use clutter to do that. | 00:39 |
| CosmoHill | i need to sort out my boot, have to use command line | 00:40 |
| lcuk | does the x86 system use gles? | 00:41 |
| VLJ | no | 00:42 |
| VLJ | gles stand for Opengl for Embedded System | 00:42 |
| * CosmoHill logs into his moblin box | 00:42 | |
| CosmoHill | now what do i need tod | 00:42 |
| daumas | murrayc: hildon-desktop is not linked against libclutter, so i don't think so. | 00:42 |
| VLJ | as there is no "true" x86 embedded system | 00:42 |
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| VLJ | daumas > the latest hildon-desktop didnot merge to gnome yet | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | the WM on the N900 is clutter-based | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | the desktop isn't | 00:43 |
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| daumas | thiago: what is the window manager? i'm brain dead atm | 00:44 |
| CosmoHill | i have applications fail to start on moblin | 00:44 |
| CosmoHill | I've recompiled xorg | 00:44 |
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| VLJ | which applications ? | 00:45 |
| CosmoHill | at the moment, all of them | 00:45 |
| CosmoHill | bbr | 00:45 |
| thiago_home | I don't remember what it is | 00:46 |
| thiago_home | I'm just repeating what I remember being told | 00:46 |
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| daumas | ah, so don't shoot the messenger :P | 00:46 |
| CosmoHill | back | 00:47 |
| VLJ | windows manager is the "software" that draw your windows | 00:47 |
| CosmoHill | http://black-flag.co.uk/files/broken-ubuntumolbin.jpg | 00:47 |
| VLJ | ie that place and render the windows | 00:48 |
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| daumas | VLJ: i was asking for the program/project name | 00:48 |
| VLJ | ho | 00:48 |
| VLJ | err sorry | 00:48 |
| VLJ | i think it's clutter | 00:49 |
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| daumas | clutter is a GTK library, not a desktop | 00:49 |
| CosmoHill | i forgot the -o command and now curl is throwing up on my terminal | 00:49 |
| daumas | *library for GTK | 00:49 |
| VLJ | what did you do CosmoHill ? | 00:50 |
| CosmoHill | download cutter | 00:50 |
| CosmoHill | -o directs the output | 00:50 |
| bfree | don't Intel say the gma500 is an "embedded" gpu (and use that as the excuse for it not to be supported with Free drivers like their "non-embedded" chips). and isn't it also essentially the same chip as is in the iPhone 3GS (sgx 535) and very similar to what's in the N900 (sgx500)? | 00:50 |
| VLJ | and put it inside ubuntu/moblin | 00:50 |
| ShadowJK | bfree, they don't own it, they can't support it | 00:51 |
| daumas | bfree: Intel didn't make the chip | 00:51 |
| ShadowJK | is my theory | 00:51 |
| VLJ | bfree: in fact the whole US15W is intended to become an embedded system | 00:51 |
| VLJ | but in fact, there is nothing but netbook that use atom Zseries/GMA500 | 00:52 |
| arjan | bfree: I don't think intel ever said gma500 is embedded | 00:52 |
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| arjan | or used that as an excuse | 00:52 |
| CosmoHill | now how do i configure clutter | 00:53 |
| VLJ | in fact they didnt speak about it :p | 00:53 |
| bfree | http://developer.intel.com/design/chipsets/embedded/SCHUS15W/index.htm | 00:53 |
| arjan | some random internet rambling dude might make up any excuse... I've seen lots of ramblings | 00:53 |
| arjan | bfree: sure intel makes embedded chipsets too | 00:53 |
| * CosmoHill needs the moblin config for moblin | 00:54 | |
| arjan | those don't tend to end up in netbooks; netbooks tend to pick the price sensitive packaging option etc | 00:54 |
| VLJ | I never found a device running under x86 except computers | 00:54 |
| arjan | VLJ: some models of blackberry run x86 | 00:55 |
| arjan | iirc | 00:55 |
| VLJ | ho | 00:55 |
| arjan | lots of airplanes use x86 ;) | 00:55 |
| mikeleib | hah | 00:55 |
| arjan | and a whole bunch of "small embedded" does to, includign settop boxes | 00:55 |
| mikeleib | there are lots of embedded systems out there running x86.. zillions upon zillions | 00:55 |
| mikeleib | x86 dominates the pc/104 space | 00:56 |
| mikeleib | x86 dominates the compactPCI space | 00:56 |
| mikeleib | x86 dominates the SBC space | 00:56 |
| lcuk | how about mobile embedded tho - when you dont have the safety rope | 00:57 |
| ShadowJK | safety rope? | 00:57 |
| lcuk | power cable | 00:57 |
| arjan | lcuk: dfine mobile embedded | 00:57 |
| arjan | ah | 00:58 |
| arjan | well ... see above ;) | 00:58 |
| lcuk | yes, they all look to be home/office based? | 00:58 |
| ShadowJK | lcuk, get one of those nokia phones that take the rare BL-10C battery. It's about a month of standby or so ;-) | 00:58 |
| * CosmoHill downloads clutter | 00:58 | |
| thiago_home | the space shuttle also uses x86 | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | 80386 | 00:59 |
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| lcuk | doesnt that have RTG? | 00:59 |
| mikeleib | most satellites, too | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | ARM still has more volume, though | 00:59 |
| ShadowJK | shuttle doesn't have a radio thermal generator.. | 00:59 |
| ShadowJK | It has fuel cells though | 00:59 |
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| ShadowJK | chips going into space need to be radioation hardened :) | 01:00 |
| VLJ | and what about "powerPC" based system ? | 01:00 |
| ShadowJK | Galileo has a tape drive, state of the art :D | 01:00 |
| arjan | powerpc thrives in consoles | 01:00 |
| VLJ | yep | 01:00 |
| VLJ | but anything else ? | 01:01 |
| VLJ | Galileo does exist ? ;) | 01:01 |
| lcuk | rock solid reliable. ShadowJK yeah my mistake about shuttle | 01:01 |
| arjan | not sure I've seen anything new on a powerpc lately other than consoles | 01:01 |
| Corsac | thiago_home: they have thinkpad t61p on iss | 01:01 |
| Corsac | (not for flight control though) | 01:02 |
| ShadowJK | VLJ, I mean the probe that went to jupiter.. not the gps thing.. maybe I remembered name wrong | 01:02 |
| VLJ | in fact they share the same name | 01:03 |
| ShadowJK | anyway, look at the Apollo guidance computer for a real computer ;( | 01:04 |
| ShadowJK | the one onboard the command module and lunar module | 01:04 |
| ShadowJK | iirc in one of the flights they reprogrammed it by punching in new opcodes on the numeric keypad which was the only input device :D | 01:05 |
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| CosmoHill | dammit | 01:05 |
| VLJ | does it work CosmoHill ? | 01:05 |
| CosmoHill | can't get it to configure yet | 01:05 |
| CosmoHill | *** No gtk-doc support *** | 01:06 |
| VLJ | you're under ubuntu ? | 01:07 |
| CosmoHill | moblin | 01:07 |
| VLJ | try apt-get install gtk-doc | 01:07 |
| VLJ | err | 01:07 |
| VLJ | yum install gtk-doc | 01:07 |
| CosmoHill | I seem to have so much dev stuff on here :( | 01:08 |
| CosmoHill | probably not a bad thing since I'm learning C++ | 01:08 |
| VLJ | there are a lot of dependencies | 01:08 |
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| CosmoHill | installed gettext-devel too | 01:10 |
| * CosmoHill stabs | 01:10 | |
| CosmoHill | wasn't needed | 01:10 |
| lcuk | thinking different, whats the easiest way to wire up a wall mount display system and are there any potential elegent fuel cell designs i could top up like watering a plant :) | 01:11 |
| lcuk | just pour something in the top and have it run for a couple of weeks | 01:12 |
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| CosmoHill | *** No glib-gettextize *** | 01:12 |
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| VLJ | you have glib-devel ? | 01:15 |
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| CosmoHill | no such package | 01:15 |
| VLJ | glib ? | 01:16 |
| VLJ | gtk2-devel ? | 01:16 |
| CosmoHill | glib2-devel | 01:17 |
| CosmoHill | ah ha | 01:17 |
| CosmoHill | that's it | 01:17 |
| CosmoHill | yay | 01:17 |
| CosmoHill | now i can run autogeh...oh it failed | 01:17 |
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| VLJ | message ? | 01:19 |
| CosmoHill | http://pastebin.cross-lfs.org/6785 | 01:20 |
| VLJ | are you sure this is the error message ? | 01:20 |
| VLJ | I mean | 01:21 |
| VLJ | there is nothing before ? | 01:21 |
| CosmoHill | http://pastebin.cross-lfs.org/6786 | 01:21 |
| VLJ | if you install gnome-common ? | 01:22 |
| CosmoHill | i don't have that | 01:23 |
| VLJ | libtool ? | 01:23 |
| CosmoHill | i have that | 01:23 |
| VLJ | try libtool or libtool-devel | 01:23 |
| CosmoHill | i think | 01:23 |
| CosmoHill | yum info package_name ? | 01:24 |
| VLJ | yum install libtool | 01:24 |
| CosmoHill | oo | 01:25 |
| CosmoHill | checking for XDAMAGE extension... configure: error: not found | 01:25 |
| CosmoHill | dammit | 01:25 |
| VLJ | libx11-devel | 01:25 |
| VLJ | or x11-devel | 01:25 |
| VLJ | something with x11 and devel | 01:25 |
| tripzero | i think there is a libxdamage as well? | 01:26 |
| tripzero | at least there is on this ubuntu box | 01:26 |
| CosmoHill | libX11-devel. | 01:26 |
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| CosmoHill | already installed | 01:26 |
| VLJ | perhaps there is a libxdamage as tripzero said | 01:27 |
| CosmoHill | installed libXdamage-devel | 01:28 |
| CosmoHill | that got it | 01:28 |
| VLJ | so now it works ? | 01:29 |
| CosmoHill | nope | 01:29 |
| CosmoHill | onto the next error | 01:29 |
| CosmoHill | installing cairo-devel now | 01:29 |
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| CosmoHill | bollocks | 01:31 |
| CosmoHill | No package 'pangocairo' found | 01:31 |
| CosmoHill | No package 'gdk-pixbuf-2.0' found | 01:31 |
| CosmoHill | pango-devel :) | 01:33 |
| * CosmoHill is going one package at a time | 01:33 | |
| VLJ | you're not stuck ? ;) | 01:36 |
| CosmoHill | stuck on the gdk one | 01:36 |
| VLJ | i'm quite interessed in your results | 01:36 |
| VLJ | try libgtk2-devel | 01:36 |
| CosmoHill | I am saying everyting do do cos i keep logs | 01:36 |
| CosmoHill | i must say you're being very helpful | 01:37 |
| CosmoHill | and yum is awesome | 01:37 |
| VLJ | or gconf | 01:37 |
| * CosmoHill hasn't used it much before | 01:37 | |
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| CosmoHill | gtk2-devel, found you | 01:41 |
| * CosmoHill dances | 01:42 | |
| arjan | yum install "pkgconfig(cairo)" | 01:42 |
| arjan | for things where configure requires a pkg config thing | 01:42 |
| arjan | eg | 01:42 |
| arjan | yum install "pkgconfig(gdk-pixbuf-2.0)" | 01:43 |
| arjan | will install all you need to fix that configure thing | 01:43 |
| CosmoHill | where were you half an hour ago! | 01:43 |
| arjan | in a bloody meeting ;( | 01:43 |
| cworth | arjan: Oh, that's nice to know. | 01:44 |
| CosmoHill | I'm in bed :) | 01:44 |
| CosmoHill | well on bed | 01:44 |
| CosmoHill | damn you, less than 2 mins to compile clutter | 01:45 |
| VLJ | you spend more time with handling dependencies than compiling the thing | 01:45 |
| ali1234 | why are you compiling it? | 01:45 |
| VLJ | now install it ? | 01:45 |
| * CosmoHill watches X repeatedly restart and growls | 01:46 | |
| VLJ | it seems not to work :/ | 01:46 |
| CosmoHill | ali1234: i think it might be the cause of programs not starting on my nvidia moblin laptop | 01:46 |
| * CosmoHill goes to init 3 to make it stop flashing | 01:47 | |
| ali1234 | probably. but i doubt recompiling it will help much | 01:47 |
| VLJ | you may try to recompile x11 with xinerama support | 01:47 |
| ali1234 | do you have the nvidia driver installed? | 01:47 |
| VLJ | http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=139 | 01:48 |
| VLJ | he says it could help | 01:48 |
| CosmoHill | ali1234: yes | 01:48 |
| CosmoHill | i found another guide | 01:49 |
| CosmoHill | didn't have that | 01:49 |
| CosmoHill | for now tell me how to force install clutter again | 01:50 |
| VLJ | sudo make install ? | 01:51 |
| VLJ | when you have build it | 01:51 |
| CosmoHill | i meant from the moblin repo so that it works | 01:51 |
| CosmoHill | via yum | 01:51 |
| VLJ | err | 01:52 |
| VLJ | is there a --reinstall command ? | 01:52 |
| ali1234 | you did a make install over the top of having the rpm package installed? | 01:52 |
| ali1234 | welcome to hell :) | 01:52 |
| VLJ | http://hacktux.com/yum/force/reinstall | 01:52 |
| CosmoHill | thanks | 01:53 |
| VLJ | the last one should do it | 01:53 |
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| ali1234 | yeah, so, nvidia needs xinerama enabled in xorg. and it isn't enabled in moblin's xorg | 01:54 |
| ali1234 | so you need to recompile it | 01:54 |
| VLJ | ali1234 you managed to get moblin working on a nvidia card ? | 01:54 |
| ali1234 | or use the rpms madeo made | 01:54 |
| ali1234 | no, i'm just reading the links and a bit of google | 01:54 |
| VLJ | ok | 01:54 |
| CosmoHill | good news, I've reinstalled clutter | 01:55 |
| CosmoHill | bad news: I've uninstalled 28 other packages | 01:55 |
| ali1234 | gotta love rpm | 01:55 |
| VLJ | it's yum | 01:56 |
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| CosmoHill | it's me thinking yum would install it all again | 01:57 |
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| VLJ | you can run moblin with vesa drivers ? | 01:58 |
| auke | not without rebuilding | 01:58 |
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| VLJ | moblin is really build for use with 100% intel hardware | 01:59 |
| arjan | you really don't want to run a 3D GUI on top of vesa | 01:59 |
| VLJ | built* | 01:59 |
| VLJ | no but you would be sure it works | 01:59 |
| VLJ | I mean | 01:59 |
| arjan | it's SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW | 01:59 |
| VLJ | to know if moblin ui can work even with 28 missing packages | 01:59 |
| CosmoHill | arjan: that is why I'm installed nvidia | 02:00 |
| ali1234 | does moblin need composite extension? | 02:00 |
| auke | yes, moblin uses compositing | 02:00 |
| ali1234 | that's annoying | 02:00 |
| ali1234 | composite and xinerama don't work at the same time | 02:00 |
| VLJ | are you sure ? | 02:00 |
| arjan | but composite and xrandr do | 02:00 |
| ali1234 | so nvidia needs an xorg option that you would never possibly want to use | 02:00 |
| tripzero | CosmoHill, does nouveau not work? | 02:00 |
| arjan | ali1234: exactly | 02:00 |
| lcuk | since older devices have lower resolutions, is it more feasible on those than what you think | 02:01 |
| ali1234 | nvidia sucks :) | 02:01 |
| arjan | ali1234: since it does nto work, moblin does not enable it | 02:01 |
| CosmoHill | moblin has nouveau? | 02:01 |
| arjan | not currently | 02:01 |
| arjan | in november it was clearly not ready | 02:01 |
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| tripzero | nv? | 02:01 |
| auke | maybe, soon? needs testing | 02:01 |
| auke | no nv either | 02:01 |
| auke | useless without 3d support | 02:01 |
| tripzero | 2.6.33 should have support for it | 02:01 |
| arjan | nv is like vesa | 02:01 |
| VLJ | ali1234 I got compositing on every distro with nvidia :/ | 02:01 |
| ali1234 | arjan: nvidia driver will do composite fine, it will just disable xinerama. but it won't work at all if xorg was compiled without xinerama support | 02:02 |
| CosmoHill | well if it helps my moblin installed is screwed | 02:02 |
| VLJ | yep | 02:02 |
| ali1234 | but xinerama and composite don't work together on any driver, and never can | 02:02 |
| VLJ | ok | 02:02 |
| VLJ | but nvidia drivers doesnt work without xinerama, although the first thing it does is to disable it | 02:03 |
| arjan | sounds like a crappy driver | 02:03 |
| ali1234 | it can use xinerama if oyu disable composite | 02:03 |
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| ali1234 | they are fundamentally incompatible at the server level | 02:03 |
| VLJ | yep but there is no need to enable xinerama | 02:04 |
| ali1234 | yeah. the crappy part is that it dies if xorg was compiled without xinerama | 02:04 |
| ali1234 | it should just ignore the fact that it isn't there to disable | 02:04 |
| ali1234 | good luck getting nvidia to fix it though :) | 02:05 |
| VLJ | the crappy part is that xrandr is not enabled with nvidia drivers :/ | 02:05 |
| ali1234 | yes it is | 02:05 |
| tripzero | twinview | 02:05 |
| VLJ | i mean xrandr 1.2 | 02:05 |
| VLJ | yep twinview | 02:06 |
| VLJ | but twinview is not xrandr | 02:06 |
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| ShadowJK | nvidia may suck, but let's hope intel comes out with a new chipset of their very own design, that supports VA-API and gives h264 main and high profile hw accel :) | 02:06 |
| VLJ | it does not work with integrated xrandr manager inside desktop environnement | 02:06 |
| CosmoHill | nvidia pay suck but I didn't have to pay for this laptop | 02:06 |
| CosmoHill | what is the package that installs the whole UI? | 02:07 |
| VLJ | i have no idea | 02:07 |
| ShadowJK | or maybe a 4-core atom to decode h264 with :D | 02:07 |
| VLJ | it would be a waste of power | 02:08 |
| CosmoHill | ShadowJK: that mine just run flash | 02:08 |
| CosmoHill | JUST | 02:08 |
| ShadowJK | my atom 330 can *almost* decode very low motion 1080p h264 :) | 02:09 |
| ShadowJK | almost! | 02:09 |
| CosmoHill | damn you | 02:09 |
| CosmoHill | my powerbook sets whatever it is on on fire when i use normal youtube | 02:09 |
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| VLJ | GMA 500 should be able to decode anything at 1080p | 02:10 |
| VLJ | but in fact it doesnt on youtube with flash 10.1 :/ | 02:10 |
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| tybollt | GMA500 is free and open and very well documented for all to see. | 02:11 |
| range | VLJ: Tried the third beta? | 02:13 |
| ShadowJK | tricore would do it for sure, quad core would probably ensure even hollywood shakycam actionfests decoded in time | 02:13 |
| ShadowJK | (with ffmpeg-mt) | 02:13 |
| VLJ | yes | 02:13 |
| ShadowJK | i heard flash isn't going to support hw accelerated decode for awhile | 02:13 |
| ShadowJK | (on linux) | 02:13 |
| ShadowJK | And you know, flash has all this extra things going on | 02:13 |
| VLJ | on windows seven I myust admit | 02:13 |
| range | Oh. Great. | 02:13 |
| VLJ | must | 02:13 |
| range | Because my lowly Intel chipset on my macbook now is supported. | 02:14 |
| VLJ | what is it ? | 02:14 |
| ShadowJK | It takes the decoded stream, converts it back into RGB, blends the UI components onto the video, blits to screen or converts back to yuv for blitting onto screen.. Just because a system can play back 1080p h264 doesn't mean it will be able to do it under flash, even if flash uses hw decode accels available.. | 02:14 |
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| VLJ | yep but I think that decoding stream is more power consuming the rest | 02:16 |
| VLJ | than* | 02:16 |
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| ShadowJK | If only desktop CPUs weren't so enormously powerful maybe adobe would give up at some point, and convert their UI overlay to YUV and blit it ontop of the video instead as a subpicture stream.. | 02:18 |
| ShadowJK | sure :) | 02:18 |
| * CosmoHill needs a virtual package that installs the whole UI | 02:18 | |
| ShadowJK | but it sure doubles or triples the bandwidth requirements to play something through flash instead of a normal player | 02:18 |
| VLJ | cosmohill > try mutter-moblin ? | 02:18 |
| VLJ | or moblin-panel-myzone ? | 02:19 |
| VLJ | by the way, are HTML5 enabled browser supporting hardware decoding ? | 02:19 |
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| CosmoHill | nope, neither | 02:20 |
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| CosmoHill | oo | 02:21 |
| VLJ | moblin-mutter ? ;) | 02:21 |
| CosmoHill | mutter, did something | 02:21 |
| VLJ | ? | 02:21 |
| CosmoHill | i used to have empathy start up and that was the only thing in X11 | 02:22 |
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| VLJ | but you dont have moblin ui | 02:23 |
| CosmoHill | i have a pretty curser and a background | 02:24 |
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| VLJ | i'm building gnome 2.30 with jhbuild | 02:26 |
| VLJ | i'd like to build moblin afterward using package from gnome 2.30 | 02:27 |
| CosmoHill | jh? | 02:27 |
| VLJ | it's a tool | 02:27 |
| CosmoHill | Jeremy Huntworth? | 02:27 |
| VLJ | http://git.moblin.org/cgit.cgi/moblin2-jhbuild/tree/README | 02:27 |
| VLJ | it does everything for you : git cloning, configure, build, resolving dependencies if possible | 02:28 |
| VLJ | nevertheless moblin2-jhbuild has a lot of unresolved dependencies | 02:29 |
| VLJ | so I'm building gnome with it, to get fresh package | 02:29 |
| CosmoHill | ooo | 02:29 |
| CosmoHill | dammit | 02:29 |
| CosmoHill | oh i have something | 02:30 |
| VLJ | ? | 02:30 |
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| CosmoHill | i clicked on something, it opened nicely and now X won't stop restatrting | 02:32 |
| CosmoHill | now i have an error message | 02:32 |
| VLJ | which is...? | 02:33 |
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| CosmoHill | i open the panel, click something and it restarts] | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | same thing i had before i screwed up moblin | 02:33 |
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| VLJ | you can rebuild mutter too, perhaps the problem comes from here | 02:34 |
| VLJ | sadly there is no error log when running on a nvidia card | 02:35 |
| VLJ | I go to sleep, see you ! | 02:36 |
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| CosmoHill | damn | 02:38 |
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| CosmoHill | meh sod it | 02:42 |
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| kebax | joopajoo | 02:49 |
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| jebba | Hmm, i `git clone git://git.moblin.org/moblin2-jhbuild && cd moblin2-jhbuild && make install && jhbuild-moblin2` but i get: "Unable to find JHBuild in PATH" | 03:14 |
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| mrm | quick question - i have a lot of C++ experience and am looking to get involved - should i buy a device or wait and just use an emulator - are new devices on the horizon? | 03:33 |
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| kebax | qt is more than c++ | 03:40 |
| mrm | so you suggest I shouldn't get involved because i don't know qt already?? | 03:43 |
| kebax | no I do not | 03:43 |
| kebax | but I think you should study qt | 03:45 |
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| mrm | considering i've worked on c/win32 mfc atl com gtk i'm pretty confident the qt part will be learning another framework | 03:47 |
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| kebax | okay | 03:48 |
| mrm | i'm more interested in whether investment into existing devices like n900 are worth the personal money at this time | 03:48 |
| mrm | or, new devices are on the horizon | 03:49 |
| mrm | :) | 03:49 |
| ShadowJK | There are always new devices on the horizon | 03:49 |
| mrm | heh, true | 03:50 |
| mrm | let's say 1-2 month time frame | 03:50 |
| ShadowJK | If your aim is stricly meego, then I'd wait. | 03:50 |
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| ShadowJK | If your aim is QT, then anything that runs QT, including N900, is viable | 03:50 |
| ShadowJK | If you want the best GNU/Linux phone available, then N900 is for you | 03:51 |
| ShadowJK | I seriously doubt any meego device is coming the next 1-2 months :) | 03:51 |
| kebax | really? | 03:51 |
| ShadowJK | Well maybe something netbook-ish? | 03:51 |
| mrm | right, will there be an SDK in that time? | 03:52 |
| ShadowJK | mrm, let's hope so :) | 03:52 |
| mrm | great thanks everyone! | 03:52 |
| ShadowJK | If you're new the QT, I think there's alot to investigate before the meego/device specific things appear | 03:52 |
| mrm | well, i have other motivation which is i'm tired of my iphone and blackberry tour | 03:53 |
| mrm | lol | 03:53 |
| mrm | yikes - kids are home - chaos - thanks for the help | 03:55 |
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| mmgcs | question: does the maemo sdk emulator support connecting to exchange 2007? | 06:51 |
| mmgcs | buehler? | 06:52 |
| swc|666 | lol | 06:54 |
| mmgcs | :) | 06:54 |
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| mmgcs | hmmm | 07:00 |
| mmgcs | no takers on the maemo sdk emulator supporting connecting to exchange 2007? | 07:00 |
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| lucent | asking about maemo in meego channel. son I am disappoint. | 07:12 |
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| mmgcs | pardon me, i must have forgot the meego infrastructure is 100% operational, my bad | 07:17 |
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| markey | morning | 08:10 |
| Myrtti | meh | 08:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer | moin | 08:20 |
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| markey | :) | 08:37 |
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| Stskeeps | morning david! | 10:42 |
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| lbt | morning all | 10:52 |
| lbt | hey Carsten | 10:52 |
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| Amby | hello everyone | 12:35 |
| Amby | do you think we will have a MeeGo discussion somewhere about quality standards of UI etc.? | 12:37 |
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| Plux | Amby, Probably yes. But I would guess that it would be based much on http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/eb8a68ba-6225-4d84-ba8f-a00e4a05ff6f/Hildon_2_2_UI_Style_Guide.html | 12:41 |
| thiago_home | or not | 12:42 |
| thiago_home | you don't know if the Maemo 6 UI will be anything like that | 12:42 |
| thiago_home | in fact, not even I know that | 12:43 |
| Plux | thiago, well, thats why I didn't say "it would be" but "i would guess" so yes, true I don't know. | 12:43 |
| Amby | Plux: how much community involvement was there for the UI style? | 12:44 |
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| Plux | Amby, I'm not really sure about that for either moblin or maemo. | 12:46 |
| Amby | I especially miss a stronger "key principles" part. | 12:46 |
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| thiago_home | my guess is that there won't be one MeeGo UI only | 12:51 |
| thiago_home | there will be slightly different ones depending on the form factor | 12:51 |
| Amby | thiago_home: right, I was more talking about the reference UI | 12:52 |
| thiago_home | reference UI per form factor | 12:52 |
| Amby | yes | 12:52 |
| gour | i wonder if one could use other toolkits for meego development, e.g. wx? | 12:53 |
| thiago_home | sure | 12:55 |
| thiago_home | it's X11 | 12:55 |
| thiago_home | use whatever you will | 12:56 |
| thiago_home | but don't expect it to come preinstalled in the devices, though | 12:56 |
| gour | sure. that's no problem. considering i plan to use wx (with haskell for desktop app), i'd like to write 'lite' version for mobile device using wx and not being tied to qt-only...that's all | 12:58 |
| * ShadowJK is guessing anything that pulls in tens of megs of wx wouldn't be considered 'lite' by most people ;-) | 13:00 | |
| gour | ShadowJK: heh, devices like N900 have lot of mem and here it is important to have 'lite' version running on mobile device anyhow | 13:02 |
| alden | is qt liter than wx? | 13:02 |
| alden | me = n00b, sorry | 13:03 |
| gour | alden: probably it is, considering that wx is a layer on top of another toolkit, e.g. gtk+ | 13:03 |
| jrayhawk | Gour: What are you working on? | 13:04 |
| gour | jrayhawk: planning to work on vedic astrology program | 13:04 |
| alden | jrayhawk: cool :) | 13:04 |
| alden | err | 13:05 |
| gour | :-D | 13:05 |
| jrayhawk | hee :) | 13:05 |
| alden | gour: cool :) | 13:05 |
| ShadowJK | it didn't "feel" light on my desktop, wonder what it'd be like on a mobile device :) | 13:05 |
| gour | ShadowJK: well, for now the only option is app running on old palm..so everything running on meego is huge plus for me | 13:06 |
| ShadowJK | ah | 13:06 |
| gour | it is interesting that before i went on holidays (end of jan), i was researching which platform to use for mobile development and was not easy to choose between maemo and moblin. now when i returned i 'discovered' that the two are merging :-) | 13:08 |
| thiago_home | gour: :-) | 13:08 |
| jrayhawk | Gour: A friend of mine made a very simple "make a window and start mucking about directly in Cairo" Haskell library | 13:09 |
| gour | prior to that, moblin got some advantage and i was thinking to wait for some moblin-based smart-phone...now it should be easier and hopefully we'll see more meego devices | 13:09 |
| jrayhawk | you can clone http://www.aremonadscheating.org/git/bees.git/ if you want to take a look at it. | 13:09 |
| gour | jrayhawk: i plan to use wxhaskell | 13:09 |
| jrayhawk | talking like that will make poor cworth cry :( | 13:10 |
| gour | with moblin, one could just play with clutter bindings...now i wonder that will happen with clutter | 13:10 |
| jrayhawk | Intel OSTC bought the developers out, so I assume they're still interested in it. | 13:11 |
| jrayhawk | I haven't been paying attention, but I assume some of them are even in here. | 13:12 |
| gour | what will nokia say about it | 13:12 |
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| jrayhawk | And, of course, someone should warn you that compiling Haskell on ARM is a bit... um... tedious, to be generous. | 13:21 |
| alden | because of glibc? | 13:22 |
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| jrayhawk | I doubt it. | 13:23 |
| jrayhawk | Bootstrapping GHC6 takes around a week, last I heard. | 13:24 |
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| gour | ghc is getting llvm backend... | 13:25 |
| gour | otoh, i was running ghc on moblin image without any problem | 13:26 |
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| koupsa | hello all | 15:39 |
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| azorb | http://www.theviralscript.com?id=3nfv45uhihvz7ulahmir5ftd4jainb | 16:14 |
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| TheOne | hi everybody | 18:07 |
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| Stskeeps | evening qgil | 21:36 |
| qgil | hi Stskeeps | 21:37 |
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| CosmoHill | hey | 21:41 |
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| qgil | hi CosmoHill | 21:43 |
| frals | o/ | 21:44 |
| qgil | "Harmattan, originally slated to become Maemo 6, the 6th incarnation of Nokia's Maemo mobile operating system, is now considered the first MeeGo release, and branded as such by the Maemo community." | 21:45 |
| qgil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo | 21:46 |
| zaheerm | i want to write an app with qml, anyone know if there will be major changes that may affect my app for meego/harmattan? | 21:46 |
| RST38h | How it is branded is no big deal | 21:46 |
| RST38h | Internally, it is still Maemo6 though, isn't it? | 21:46 |
| qgil | I'm not supposed to edit the MeeGo page at wikipedia since I might have a conflict of interest but that sentence sounds wrong... | 21:46 |
| zaheerm | harmattan isn't the first MeeGo release right? | 21:47 |
| RST38h | Well ask the General and he will edit it for you | 21:47 |
| qgil | RST38h no "Maemo 6" used inside Nokia | 21:47 |
| RST38h | Was "Maemo 5" used on the inside? | 21:47 |
| qgil | harmattan =! MeeGo as OS | 21:47 |
| RST38h | this starts sounding like a mess :) | 21:48 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 21:48 |
| qgil | source: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529073&postcount=14 | 21:49 |
| ShadowJK | To me it sounds like they read the press release and tried to translate marketdroid->english. Lost in translation I guess :) | 21:49 |
| RST38h | no wonder | 21:50 |
| richieeee72 | HI Quim, did you draw any conclusions from the TMO thread about how to launch the x-terminal in Harmattan/MeeGo? | 21:51 |
| ali1234 | so if harmattan won't be called "maemo 6" but it won't be "meego" either, what will it be called? | 21:51 |
| thiago_home | zaheerm: no, there shouldn't be | 21:51 |
| qgil | richieee72 no conclusions, we'll see | 21:52 |
| thiago_home | ali1234: it will be "meego enabled" | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | hmm ok, fair enough | 21:52 |
| thiago_home | that's a term that doesn't mean "is MeeGo" but can be applied to just about anything that Nokia chooses to :-P | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | still that doesn't sound like a name as such... | 21:52 |
| thiago_home | it's not a name | 21:53 |
| qgil | users care mostly about the name of the device | 21:53 |
| ali1234 | how about "the operating system formerly known as maemo" | 21:53 |
| thiago_home | ali1234: we'll suggest that :-) | 21:53 |
| CosmoHill | qgil: they do? | 21:53 |
| RST38h | qgil: why do you think so? | 21:53 |
| RST38h | qgil: especially considering that internet is basically "maemo this ... maemo that... " | 21:54 |
| CosmoHill | an important thing when naming a device is how it translates | 21:54 |
| qgil | ah, forget it, it's saturday night :) | 21:54 |
| thiago_home | from New York? | 21:54 |
| CosmoHill | i think there was a car that when you translated it from something to english spent cu... | 21:54 |
| CosmoHill | spelt* | 21:54 |
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| qgil | Harmattan is not MeeGo but I *personally* guess it will be fair to call it "based on MeeGo" or "MeeGo compatible" | 21:57 |
| qgil | as explained in the link above, the differences will matter to a minority of users/develoers that probably will know well the deal and the details | 21:58 |
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| qgil | in other words: you | 21:59 |
| thiago_home | also note that it will not be the first device either. It may be the first smartphone, though. | 21:59 |
| mgedmin | that clears a bit of the confusion, thanks, qgil | 21:59 |
| richieeee72 | qgil: okay thanks. So long as you can still get the x-terminal some way in Harmattan/Meego, that'll be fine. | 21:59 |
| CosmoHill | the first device would be a netbook / nettop right? | 21:59 |
| qgil | once there is a release out... | 22:00 |
| ShadowJK | richieeee72, and rootsh! | 22:00 |
| qgil | the first device can be an existing device with an installable image for it | 22:00 |
| qgil | what was the first "Debian device"? | 22:00 |
| qgil | about new devices with MeeGo out of the box | 22:01 |
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| qgil | I don't expect the Nokia device to be the first one | 22:01 |
| richieeee72 | ShadowJK: Yeah, but I think the new security platform puts a spanner in the works with rootsh in closed mode anyway | 22:02 |
| ShadowJK | sucks :( | 22:03 |
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| qgil | get your facts right before concluding that something sucks | 22:03 |
| richieeee72 | ShadowJK: so long as you can still use the x-terminal at user level and SSH that'll do me. I very rarely use root on the N900 | 22:04 |
| ShadowJK | qgil, well actually we don't know anything about it yet, so :) | 22:04 |
| qgil | so :) | 22:04 |
| ShadowJK | we can only make vague handwavings against the approaching evils :) | 22:04 |
| ShadowJK | I guess it depends both on how crippled it'll be in the closd mode, and how limited the closed kernel is (if you need a new one for NAT and such like on N900, or if the default 'closed' one is fine) | 22:05 |
| ShadowJK | crippled in non-closed mode I mean... if everything stops working when you flash your own kernel :) | 22:06 |
| qgil | have you tried asking at http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_security + related Talk thread? | 22:06 |
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| GAN900 | It's going to be a lot more depressingly relevant to try to get Nokia to integrate patches. | 22:09 |
| qgil | also "Company/developer" info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo feels not completely right | 22:09 |
| GAN900 | Stupid DRM | 22:09 |
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| lcuk | will it be possible to use the ubuntu moblin as the same/similar base for meego too | 22:09 |
| qgil | MeeGo trademark and project are from the Linux Foundation | 22:09 |
| qgil | Intel and Nokia are the companies putting together a huge amount of "company" and "development" but it's open to others | 22:10 |
| qgil | lcuk define "use" | 22:11 |
| GAN900 | lcuk, MeeGe is lower than Moblin | 22:11 |
| lcuk | well in the same way that m6 will be pretty much compatible | 22:11 |
| qgil | and efine "ubuntu moblin" btw :) | 22:11 |
| GAN900 | lcuk, when people say "Moblin", they often mean something more like "Hildon" | 22:11 |
| lcuk | using ubuntu moblin + the qt stuff should be the same effect | 22:11 |
| ali1234 | lcuk: if you write everything in Qt it will work fine on any distro that ships Qt, which means any distro | 22:11 |
| lcuk | theres a ubuntu build with moblin ui ontop | 22:11 |
| qgil | is "ubuntu mobile" supporting Qt and Web Runtime? | 22:12 |
| ali1234 | ubuntu moblin is the moblin UI repackaged to run on top of ubuntu. ubuntu ships Qt 4.6 in the next release which will probably be out before meego | 22:12 |
| lcuk | ali1234, that would be the idea - but if thats the case it should be possible to use meego on n810 | 22:12 |
| lcuk | since we can put qt there | 22:12 |
| ali1234 | lcuk: sure. we can put ubuntu arm or debian or any other arm supporting distro on the n810 too | 22:13 |
| GAN900 | Er, yeah. . . . | 22:13 |
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| qgil | lcuk it depend on what you are looking for: MeeGo API compatibility or MeeGo UX look & feel (or both) | 22:14 |
| ali1234 | i have no idea about web runtime, but if it is open source, and it becomes popular, you bet it will show up in all distros quickly | 22:15 |
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| lcuk | qgil, that was sorta the point of the question, as long as meego on m6 is compatible enough it wont matter to most people and thats a good thing | 22:16 |
| thiago_home | that's the entire point of MeeGo | 22:17 |
| thiago_home | make everything underneath the applications common, shared and open source | 22:18 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, i was at the fosdem (and maemo summit) talks on security and ive read up quite a bit about them, any idea how they can work if the whole stack is open source and hence recompilable by users | 22:24 |
| thiago_home | I don't have any idea | 22:24 |
| ShadowJK | lcuk, I think the bootloader isn't open ;p | 22:25 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: by the apps and kernel needing to DRM not being so? | 22:25 |
| thiago_home | there's also a security feature on the ARM chip too | 22:25 |
| * lcuk nods | 22:26 | |
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| mgedmin | lcuk, I was at the security talk in the maemo summit in amsterdam, they talked about a first-stage boot loader checking the crypto signature of the firmware and disabling decryption keys in the hw chip if it wasn't a blessed fw | 22:28 |
| mgedmin | so you end up being able to do anything except decrypt DRMed content | 22:28 |
| mgedmin | needless to say the first-stage bootloader isn't end-user-replaceable | 22:29 |
| thiago_home | that usually isn't | 22:29 |
| thiago_home | otherwise you could brick the device | 22:29 |
| mgedmin | it'll be interesting to see if people will start finding bugs in it | 22:29 |
| mgedmin | fascinating reading: http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/17_Mistakes_Microsoft_Made_in_the_Xbox_Security_System | 22:29 |
| thiago_home | you need a cold-flash toolkit to do it | 22:29 |
| lcuk | yeah but if i can put the meego stack ontop of any os that supports qt what effective difference will lack of bootloader lead to | 22:30 |
| mgedmin | I liked the arguments about how many people wouldn't have bothered trying to break the xbox if MS allowed them to run linux on it from the start | 22:30 |
| mgedmin | many technical people will ignore DRMed content and so won't have a motive to start cracking the framework, as long as they can get root and install their own kernels and whatnot | 22:31 |
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| qgilN900 | MeeGo Thoughts http://zchydem.enume.net/?p=622 but his comments about Ovi services are a bit confusing | 22:33 |
| thiago_home | qgil: by curiosity, do you get emails about travel advisories to the US? | 22:33 |
| qgilN900 | i mean the article is good, but the Ovi part is confusing | 22:33 |
| qgilN900 | thiago_home yes, they are hillarious | 22:34 |
| qgilN900 | you fly to Portland in 2 weeks and you get an email warning you about a tsunami in Hawaii...... | 22:34 |
| thiago_home | just got one about tsunami forecast | 22:34 |
| ShadowJK | hmmm | 22:35 |
| qgilN900 | I remember one warning you about protests in thed Basque country. My flight was to Gran Canaria. (2000 km away or more) | 22:35 |
| * ShadowJK read the security wiki discussion and talk threads... | 22:36 | |
| ShadowJK | I sure hope Ovi will be able to distinguish between closed and free maemo^Wmeego instance, and not offer things that depend on jail :D | 22:37 |
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| qgilN900 | ShadowJH, I don't get you Ovi comment either (maybe it's me then) | 22:38 |
| * mgedmin is kind of boycotting Ovi since it requires a username/password even for free apps | 22:39 | |
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| VLJ | hi | 22:40 |
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| CosmoHill | hey | 22:40 |
| Stskeeps | ten minutes with moblin image creator and i feel like rewriting or improving it.. | 22:40 |
| ShadowJK | qgilN900, ah I mean if you don't have the closed kernel anymore (and from the comments it seems restoring would require total reflash), but software/media which do not use any of the DRM/securestorage is still supposed to work, what happens if you'd for example accidentally pay for something that turns out not to work on your device? | 22:40 |
| VLJ | how long does it take to download everything with moblin image creator ? | 22:41 |
| ShadowJK | In a sense there'd be two kinds of <nextdevice>, drm-free and drm-enabled, which are slightly incompatible with eachother :) | 22:41 |
| qgilN900 | what happens if you pay for DRM content when you don't want DRM in your device, you mean? | 22:41 |
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| ShadowJK | This would also be relevant for maemo.org repositories, or the future equivalent. For example the current mobile-hotspot (iirc) software would, in its current form, kill DRM on the device or just not be installable on the DRM-enabled devices | 22:42 |
| qgilN900 | and you won't re-enable the default behavior with DRM either? | 22:42 |
| ShadowJK | I got the impression "re-enabling" would be full reflash? | 22:42 |
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| qgilN900 | no idea but what if you have to reflash? | 22:44 |
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| VLJ | DRM stand for Direct Right Management or Direct rendering manager ? | 22:44 |
| lcuk | the former | 22:44 |
| ShadowJK | Digital Restrictions management? | 22:44 |
| thiago_home | VLJ: both, but this discussion was the former | 22:44 |
| VLJ | ok | 22:44 |
| ShadowJK | qgilN900, Well then you lose whatever you downloaded anyway? ;-) | 22:45 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, how would you change it for the better. is the new version for meego underway, would your notes and observations make for a clean start for the proper meego one? | 22:45 |
| thiago_home | your purchases are recorded in the Ovi Store, so you can redownload them. | 22:45 |
| ShadowJK | ah | 22:45 |
| qgilN900 | mmm no idea in a Harmattan device but if you look the N900 flashing doesn't touch your eMMC | 22:45 |
| thiago_home | actually, it does erase /home | 22:46 |
| lcuk | flashing touches installed apps tho | 22:46 |
| thiago_home | not /home/user/MyDocs | 22:46 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: once i'm done whining about it i'll be constructive :) | 22:46 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps :) | 22:46 |
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| qgilN900 | no idea where your DRM media goes | 22:46 |
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| lcuk | most people dont just get media tho, ovi store is mainly for apps atm isnt it? | 22:47 |
| zaheerm | the talk at fosdem was good re: security framework for haramattan | 22:47 |
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| lcuk | yeah zaheerm it seemed to flow better than the summit one, seemed to clarify a lot more than the first | 22:47 |
| zaheerm | was more technical than the summit one | 22:47 |
| ali1234 | so, regarding DRM, can i use it for my own evil purposes? | 22:47 |
| thiago_home | no, the store also has other stuff, like ringtones, videos, wallpapers, etc. | 22:48 |
| zaheerm | ali1234, she explained in the talk that user apps can use the encryption keys | 22:48 |
| qgilN900 | and was 4 months further in development | 22:48 |
| lcuk | sure ali1234, if its your digital media and you can wonga up enough cash for a certificate | 22:48 |
| ali1234 | eg can i make it so that my N900 will only run code signed with my key, and not anyone elses? | 22:48 |
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| zaheerm | the security framework is for harmattan not for fremantle | 22:48 |
| ali1234 | s/N900/what ever the new thing is called/ | 22:49 |
| infobot | ali1234 meant: eg can i make it so that my what ever the new thing is called will only run code signed with my key, and not anyone elses? | 22:49 |
| lcuk | ali1234, thats a bit fruitless just dont share your code/apps with anyone | 22:49 |
| ali1234 | no you dont understand at all | 22:49 |
| ali1234 | i dont want to lock my apps to my specific device | 22:49 |
| zaheerm | not sure how much you'll be able to modify the policies | 22:49 |
| ali1234 | i want to prevent execution of anything i didn't sign myself | 22:50 |
| ali1234 | at the bootloader level | 22:50 |
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| zaheerm | i doubt it | 22:50 |
| lcuk | sure you can as long as your write/build/compile the bootloader yourself you get to choose the encryption algo/key | 22:50 |
| zaheerm | the bootloader will either run kernel images signed by nokia and hence allow access to the encryption keys or run any other kernel | 22:50 |
| ali1234 | so i can't use the bootloader to boot my kernel with my keys and my DRM | 22:51 |
| zaheerm | device won't start if you replace the loader | 22:51 |
| zaheerm | ali1234, the keys are stored in hardware# | 22:51 |
| ShadowJK | qgilN900, it just looks to me like it'll split the devices into two categories, where some software (wizard-mounter, mobile-hotspot, joikuspot, for example) would only work on an open kernel, and presumably some other software that requires DRM features would only work on the closed kernel devices? | 22:51 |
| ali1234 | so i can only use the DRM/encryption with nokia's keys? | 22:52 |
| zaheerm | with your device's keys | 22:52 |
| ali1234 | but i wont know what those keys are | 22:52 |
| ali1234 | therefore they are nokia's | 22:53 |
| zaheerm | but you'll be able to use them to encrypt, sign decrypt etc. | 22:53 |
| ali1234 | but i wont be able to use them to sign my own binaries | 22:53 |
| ali1234 | because that would totally defeat the purpose of the DRM | 22:53 |
| qgilN900 | shadowJK why are you assuming that those apps won't run with your default config? | 22:53 |
| qgilN900 | (note: I don't know them) | 22:54 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, maybe because they'd require kernel mods... | 22:54 |
| lcuk | ShadowJK, boot to task switch! | 22:55 |
| ali1234 | can i replace the keys with my own? (i don't care that that means i can't use nokia's kernel or watch movies) | 22:55 |
| zaheerm | ali1234, you won't be able to modify the hardware | 22:55 |
| ali1234 | well it sounds to me like this can only be used against the user | 22:56 |
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| ShadowJK | qgilN900, well the ongoing trend has been feature culling :) | 22:56 |
| qgilN900 | MeeGo has no trend | 22:56 |
| qgilN900 | as for yet | 22:56 |
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| qgilN900 | I guess your questions will have easier answers after the first MeeGo and Harmattan releases including kernel and security framework | 22:58 |
| ShadowJK | Well let's hope that we can get many useful features included in MeeGo so that vendors don't get too tempted to throw out half the kernel :) | 22:58 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, has there been any timeline committed for that? | 22:59 |
| qgilN900 | in the times of Nokia being the sole vendor and maintainer of MeeGo, it made sense to remove tricky parts that are not very relevant to your next products | 22:59 |
| ali1234 | btw i highly doubt ever device will have a unique key stored in hardware :) | 23:00 |
| * thiago_home missed oprofile on the N900 | 23:00 | |
| zaheerm | ali1234, that was what was said at the security talk at fosdem | 23:00 |
| arjan | thiago_home: have yo used perf (and sysprof) yet ? | 23:00 |
| qgilN900 | but in MeeGo there is platform development targetting many vendors, with maintenance open to whoever cares about a specific feature or component | 23:00 |
| ali1234 | you;d need to make a unique signed upgrade for every device | 23:00 |
| thiago_home | arjan: no, I haven't | 23:00 |
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| arjan | thiago_home: worth a shot.. it's actually very nice | 23:01 |
| thiago_home | arjan: actually, I just wanted to access the performance counter registers on ARM | 23:01 |
| arjan | actually nicer than oprofile by quite a bit | 23:01 |
| arjan | thiago_home: that's what perf is for :) | 23:01 |
| thiago_home | we can read the TSC in userland on x86, but not the equivalent on ARM | 23:01 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, will vendors be able to deviate from the meego default kernel and still call their device a meego device? | 23:01 |
| qgilN900 | that is a good question for someone sitting closer to the MeeGo kernel - I don't know | 23:02 |
| zaheerm | ali1234, no you wouldn't the policy wiould be that public keys of nokia and other trusted parties would be there such that your device would be able to verify the signature | 23:02 |
| * arjan works on meego & kernel ;-) | 23:02 | |
| lcuk | how about fun: whats the biggest screensize we are gonna have by default for meego :D | 23:02 |
| arjan | zaheerm: I suspect the answer is "it depends" | 23:02 |
| ali1234 | hmm yeah i suppose that is is true | 23:03 |
| thiago_home | arjan: please turn on the performance registers for me to read in userland :-P | 23:03 |
| lcuk | people have said for ages about variety of machines for maemo - with meego this is practical | 23:03 |
| arjan | zaheerm: if you want to add some drivers etc, that's very very different than going 6 versions back and having a different ABI | 23:03 |
| qgilN900 | lcuk: counting TVOut cable? ;) | 23:03 |
| lcuk | qgilN900, nooo it will have to be wireless, we know of the limitations of standing near the projectors | 23:03 |
| mgedmin | :) | 23:04 |
| lcuk | those cables are the only frustrating part | 23:04 |
| lcuk | otherwise its perfect :D | 23:04 |
| qgilN900 | touché | 23:04 |
| zaheerm | arjan, so would device manufacturers be able to remove support for netfilter and nat etc. assuming those are in the kernel? | 23:04 |
| mgedmin | lcuk, two n900's, one running x11vnc, the other running full-screen vncviewer | 23:04 |
| arjan | zaheerm: removing is a much harder question than adding | 23:04 |
| lcuk | mgedmin, indeed | 23:04 |
| mgedmin | that would probably suck over wireless | 23:04 |
| arjan | zaheerm: since that means you might break app compatibility | 23:04 |
| mgedmin | especially at a conference | 23:04 |
| lcuk | theres more than one way to skin a cat tho | 23:04 |
| arjan | zaheerm: which would defeat half the point of meego | 23:04 |
| zaheerm | arjan, the concern of developers would be the minimum subset of options | 23:05 |
| arjan | zaheerm: why would you want to delete pieces btw? | 23:05 |
| arjan | to save 20 Kb of code space? | 23:05 |
| lcuk | lean n mean | 23:05 |
| zaheerm | arjan, i wouldn't but nokia or random chinese manufacturer might | 23:05 |
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| CosmoHill | you missed an s | 23:06 |
| ShadowJK | I guess we're just using the N900 kernel's lack of NAT and [network] filesystems as example :) | 23:06 |
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| arjan | zaheerm: I don't think there's any official answer yet (this is all work in progress), but I suspect that "removing options that are userspace visible" will be rather frowned upon | 23:06 |
| arjan | (while options that add, or are not userspace visible... much easier story) | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | define removing, making into a module should be fine | 23:06 |
| arjan | breaking app compatibility => evil | 23:07 |
| arjan | Stskeeps: if it's application visible... ;) | 23:07 |
| zaheerm | arjan, so then the important things are, what will be the minimum subset of enabled kernel options | 23:07 |
| arjan | zaheerm: and that part has not been defined at all ;-) | 23:07 |
| qgilN900 | zaheerm I don't know Nokia but "random manufacturer" might just go for the change if really needed for their busines and simply claim the MeeGo "compatibility" or simple take the OS and sell products without calling it MeeGo | 23:07 |
| ShadowJK | I guess "application visible" only matters for applications in the base meego, too :) | 23:07 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: eh... and ovi store and other stores and ... and ... | 23:07 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, random manufacturer that hasn't called its platform meego wouldn't be so important for devs | 23:08 |
| * CosmoHill wonders if he could recompile meego for his own stuff | 23:08 | |
| Stskeeps | CosmoHill: i sure hope you can :P | 23:08 |
| * mgedmin wonders what "meego apps compatibility" means when there are devices using different architectures, screen sizes and input/output paradigms | 23:09 | |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, so i am guessing meego will have to certify the manufacturers' devices before they can use meego in their marketing material | 23:09 |
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| * CosmoHill has compiled a linux system from source files | 23:09 | |
| qgilN900 | zaheerm think of Asian manufacturer selling a device without really caring much about the OS brand, or even abojt a certification | 23:09 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, then i as a 3rd party developer don't need to worry about them | 23:10 |
| qgilN900 | a different story goes for devices targeting EU / America | 23:10 |
| ShadowJK | oh yeah, there are some selling devices claiming "Maemo" :) | 23:10 |
| qgilN900 | zaheerm indeed, and they don't care much about you either | 23:10 |
| arjan | zaheerm: anyway, general objective is to get to a situation where app writers can assume a basic set of "services", including kernel services etc | 23:10 |
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| arjan | if the phone vendor doesn't care about being compatible, it's open source , they can do whatever they want I suppose, but they lose the value of this compatibility | 23:11 |
| RST38h | Services are insufficient for portable apps | 23:11 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, important part is if i write some low-ish level app/library that i want all meego devices to be able to run, it should be runnable on all meego certified devices | 23:11 |
| ShadowJK | maybe one could take the default fedora (or debian) kernel, and just change the minimum amount required to make it run on a device :D | 23:11 |
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| ali1234 | why would you take fedora/ubuntu kernel over mainline? | 23:12 |
| RST38h | You need abstractions for inputs *and* abstractions for UI that are agnostic toward screen sizes and input paradigms | 23:12 |
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| zaheerm | arjan, can we influence the basic set of services chosen? | 23:12 |
| ShadowJK | ali1234, I mean regarding the .config | 23:12 |
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| RST38h | Not exactly the easiest kind of design job | 23:12 |
| arjan | zaheerm: kernel wise? I'm sure once we get a prerelease out you can see what we start with, and then the normal bug/feature request will work for suggesting changes | 23:13 |
| ShadowJK | Instead of, say, taking an allno config and enabling the minimum amount that makes the device and default meego userspace stack work | 23:13 |
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| zaheerm | with android, only google practically can influence it...hence the apalling multimedia on android | 23:13 |
| arjan | zaheerm: I suspect that's the most efficient way of going about it; since I bet 90% or more of what you'd want will just be there already | 23:13 |
| qgilN900 | zahherm, fully agree there - I just wanted to point out that if a vendor wants to cut features A, B, C and that is more important for their business than an official MeeGo logo or fully compatible device, they can still get the whole stack, customize with the MeeGo infra a cranck a device with the resultin image | 23:13 |
| arjan | but if you have something very specific concern, do speak up.. | 23:13 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, fair enough, that is the case with everything | 23:13 |
| zaheerm | arjan, nothing specific sorry, i am just asking to see how open the process is | 23:14 |
| * ShadowJK mentions cifs | 23:15 | |
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| arjan | zaheerm: fair enough | 23:15 |
| zaheerm | android, the code is free, the process is very closed | 23:15 |
| arjan | zaheerm: it's going to be a rather tricky balancing act btw | 23:15 |
| arjan | since one the one hand people will want every kernel thing under the sun | 23:15 |
| arjan | and on the other, it needs to run on a wide range of devices | 23:15 |
| arjan | but hey... if it were easy they'd not pay us to work on it | 23:15 |
| zaheerm | arjan, understood.... | 23:16 |
| zaheerm | arjan, qgilN900: will there be non-intel non-nokia non-LF people in any of the decision influencing/making roles for the platform? | 23:16 |
| * qgilN900 starts thinking on the book he has next to his bed.... | 23:17 | |
| ShadowJK | try send a patch and see if/why it gets rejected, I guess ;-9 | 23:17 |
| ShadowJK | ;-) | 23:17 |
| * arjan hands qgilN900 a kindle instead ;-) | 23:17 | |
| * zaheerm starts thinking of porting some ugly asp code... | 23:17 | |
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| qgilN900 | zaheerm that depend on non-intel non-nokia non-LF people getting involved with responsibilities etc | 23:18 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900: it would give extra credence to the platform if such people do get involved | 23:20 |
| lcuk | qgilN900, what book are you on atm, ive just finished another set of larry niven books and am eyeing up something different | 23:20 |
| qgilN900 | zaheerm sure, this will come mainly from 2 sides: | 23:21 |
| qgilN900 | corporate partners joining | 23:21 |
| qgilN900 | individuals joining | 23:21 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900: in the way that it is not just corporate governance on the project | 23:21 |
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| qgilN900 | for the latter I expect the usual way | 23:21 |
| qgilN900 | you start in some area | 23:22 |
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| qgilN900 | or you area already The King of Mambo in certain area upstream | 23:22 |
| qgilN900 | you get a role, permissions, responsibilities... | 23:22 |
| zaheerm | qgilN900, great, i look forward to the whole thing panning out | 23:23 |
| qgilN900 | me too, believe me :) | 23:24 |
| zaheerm | :) the announcement excited me, now i have to keep patient to see it in action | 23:25 |
| qgilN900 | me too, believe me :)) :/ | 23:25 |
| lcuk | zaheerm, how is the scanning process coming, do you have the documents available from bcn long weekend? | 23:25 |
| qgilN900 | anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Camillo 's book is waiting for me | 23:26 |
| lcuk | whilst you are being patient ;) | 23:26 |
| zaheerm | lcuk, all done, i emailed you a while back with them! | 23:26 |
| zaheerm | lcuk, all on wiki | 23:26 |
| * arjan has the Don Camillo movies.. brilliant | 23:26 | |
| zaheerm | lcuk, let me dig up the link | 23:26 |
| * lcuk has been run off feet, musta missedit, ill dig and look thanks | 23:26 | |
| qgilN900 | Arjan you rock now even more :P good night! | 23:26 |
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| zaheerm | lcuk, did it before fosdem http://wiki.maemo.org/Video_editor | 23:27 |
| lcuk | heh cool stuff :D | 23:27 |
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| zaheerm | arjan, thanks for the clarifications btw | 23:30 |
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