| CosmoHill | http://www.genesi-usa.com/products | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| CosmoHill | meego would be great for these | 00:01 |
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| jku | CosmoHill, cortex a8 and 512 MB of memory sounds light for a netbook though | 00:13 |
| jku | ...and I don't just say that because of my employer :) | 00:13 |
| CosmoHill | MS? :p | 00:13 |
| jku | ha | 00:13 |
| jku | ha | 00:13 |
| CosmoHill | oh, can i lol at people who ask if an ARM based laptop can run windows XP / vista | 00:14 |
| CosmoHill | there is a reason that crapbook came with windows CE | 00:14 |
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| CosmoHill | i wonder, if meego can run on netbooks, can it run on older PC hardware? | 00:22 |
| Jaffa | lbt: no idea. /me hopes the PyMaemo team would be involved/contacted | 00:22 |
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| jku | CosmoHill, why not, but I'm guessing the default WM(s) are going to require 3D acceleration | 00:30 |
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| CosmoHill | http://www.flickr.com/photos/29844928@N07/4368522936/sizes/l/in/set-72157623336807855/ | 00:33 |
| CosmoHill | sweet | 00:33 |
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| ShadowJK | and the default build requires ssse3 | 00:35 |
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| CosmoHill | or meego? | 00:37 |
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| * CosmoHill reads up on ssse3 | 00:39 | |
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| CosmoHill | why does it require ssse3 and not sse3? | 00:42 |
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| ShadowJK | ssse3 is awesomer | 00:45 |
| ShadowJK | and atom has it | 00:45 |
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| CosmoHill | reading about the atom, the chipset seems to use more power than the processor | 00:46 |
| tripzero | more and more of the chipset functionality is moving inside the processor | 00:47 |
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| CosmoHill | like the RAM controller | 00:47 |
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| tripzero | and GPU | 00:48 |
| CosmoHill | ah yes, Nvidia ION | 00:49 |
| ShadowJK | I think the situation is a bit better with the newer atoms that are more of a SOC design | 00:49 |
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| arjan | pinetrail is a ton better | 00:54 |
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| CosmoHill | i don't like the way netbooks seem to be moving towards low powered small laptops | 01:02 |
| microlith | moving towrads? | 01:02 |
| microlith | towards* | 01:02 |
| microlith | I think that was their intention, no? | 01:02 |
| thiago_home | what should they be moving towards? | 01:03 |
| CosmoHill | i mean they are getting bigger and having hard drives | 01:03 |
| CosmoHill | like the 9" dell with 8GB / 16GB SSD is now a 10" with a 160GB hard drive | 01:03 |
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| microlith | it's been at 10" for some time now though | 01:04 |
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| CosmoHill | i also get annoyed when people wonder why they can't play games on them | 01:06 |
| CosmoHill | I mean it's an intel atom ffs, it can't play crysis | 01:07 |
| CosmoHill | poor little netbook | 01:07 |
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| MuJ | you can always play nethack just fine ;) | 01:07 |
| CosmoHill | hehe | 01:08 |
| CosmoHill | that reminds me, i have to make a text based RPG game for my assignment | 01:08 |
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| * CosmoHill shakes his fist at his 100Mhz FSB | 01:15 | |
| * lcuk uses a pencil to downclock to CosmoHill to 66mhz | 01:16 | |
| CosmoHill | if it was that easy I've go up to 133Mhz and get a nice 1Ghz VIA | 01:17 |
| lcuk | irc is a great multi player RPG | 01:18 |
| lcuk | meego level was just unlocked a few days ago ;) | 01:18 |
| CosmoHill | after i get my grades back you guys could see my source code if you wanted | 01:19 |
| CosmoHill | that reminds me, i need to setup svn | 01:19 |
| lcuk | why not git | 01:19 |
| CosmoHill | hehe | 01:19 |
| CosmoHill | i understand the versions in svn more | 01:19 |
| lcuk | heh | 01:19 |
| CosmoHill | actually, all i should do is a changelog with dates | 01:19 |
| lcuk | i like the web interface in git and also gitk and stuff | 01:20 |
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| CosmoHill | i just thought, i could have 2 x 1.4Ghz VIA C3 processors in my dell | 01:21 |
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| microlith | hmm | 01:32 |
| microlith | with ubuntu 9.10 I was getting all sorts of ata messages out in dmesg, but moblin is silent | 01:33 |
| CosmoHill | i think my server would be improved by the via padlock | 01:33 |
| * microlith wonders what's different | 01:33 | |
| CosmoHill | it would improve ssh performace | 01:34 |
| microlith | hardware AES? | 01:34 |
| CosmoHill | yep | 01:34 |
| microlith | some of the newer core chips from intel have AES acceleration stuff | 01:34 |
| microlith | that'll probably be pretty common soon | 01:34 |
| CosmoHill | my server is a P3 copermine | 01:34 |
| microlith | poky | 01:34 |
| CosmoHill | low power :) | 01:35 |
| microlith | yeah | 01:35 |
| CosmoHill | 57w typical | 01:35 |
| microlith | well, not terribly | 01:35 |
| lcuk | o_o doubles as a room heater too | 01:35 |
| microlith | that's more than some recent i5/i7 mobile chips | 01:35 |
| CosmoHill | lol | 01:35 |
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| microlith | not that I can talk, if my thinkpad's power supply hadn't gone out I'd be using it too | 01:36 |
| CosmoHill | lcuk: it has a 80mm nochaua fan | 01:36 |
| lcuk | nice, full air conditioning support then | 01:37 |
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| CosmoHill | couldn't run it with the 40mm, way to loud | 01:37 |
| lcuk | does it have a humidifier? | 01:37 |
| CosmoHill | http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_2572.html | 01:37 |
| CosmoHill | no? | 01:37 |
| lcuk | awww shucks | 01:38 |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, im actively trying to remove all the spinning magnetic domains in my room due to noise | 01:41 |
| CosmoHill | magnetic domains? | 01:41 |
| lcuk | its in the background so much its like im on a starship | 01:41 |
| lcuk | yeah motors | 01:41 |
| CosmoHill | ah | 01:41 |
| lcuk | fans/drives | 01:41 |
| * arjan suggests good ssds | 01:42 | |
| arjan | they ROCK | 01:42 |
| CosmoHill | first week with my server in my room took me a while | 01:42 |
| lcuk | yeah arjan | 01:42 |
| CosmoHill | arjan: but I'm a mortal, i can't afford them | 01:42 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, my n900 has 32gb | 01:42 |
| CosmoHill | hell, toping up the car was a shock | 01:42 |
| CosmoHill | $74 USD for a full tank | 01:43 |
| ShadowJK | what kind of tank is that.. | 01:43 |
| CosmoHill | 45L | 01:43 |
| lcuk | use alternative sources of fuel | 01:43 |
| lcuk | but as with all advice, your mileage may vary | 01:43 |
| ShadowJK | It's just silly how far ahead the intel first generation SSDs were of everything else, and then intel comes out with g2 and slashed price.. It's just brutal :-) | 01:44 |
| CosmoHill | http://cosmo1847.co.uk/?page=server | 01:45 |
| CosmoHill | here's my server specs | 01:45 |
| CosmoHill | you can also read a little about me | 01:45 |
| ShadowJK | heh, I threw out my P3 and replaced it with a Intel D945GCLF2 board (dual core atom 330) | 01:47 |
| CosmoHill | i was pondering that | 01:47 |
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| ShadowJK | There's a newer board from intel available now, with the memory controller and GPU integrated into the processor | 01:48 |
| ShadowJK | It seems to be fanless too... Although I don't think anyone's D945GCLF2's fan lasted more than a month or two anyway :) | 01:48 |
| CosmoHill | http://black-flag.co.uk/files/server/DSC_0284.JPG | 01:48 |
| CosmoHill | yes, that is a 80mm fan mounted onto the hard drives | 01:49 |
| ShadowJK | The 5000-ish rpm drives from WD and Samsung are both cheap and quiet :) | 01:50 |
| ShadowJK | not as quiet as SSD, of course.. | 01:50 |
| ShadowJK | and cool | 01:50 |
| CosmoHill | they seem cool | 01:51 |
| CosmoHill | i think they came out after i got mine | 01:51 |
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| CosmoHill | i bought the two best fans to try out | 01:52 |
| CosmoHill | the brown one is better than the white | 01:52 |
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| arachnist | ShadowJK: recently i bought 6 samsung drives. 5 of them died within first 3 days | 01:56 |
| arachnist | ShadowJK: 1.5TB ones | 01:57 |
| arachnist | got seagates as a replacement | 01:57 |
| ShadowJK | After the seagate firmware fail I've started backing up to a drive from another manufacturer | 01:57 |
| arachnist | well | 01:58 |
| ShadowJK | so I have a mix of sg, samsung and wd | 01:58 |
| arachnist | those seagates are in raidz2 | 01:58 |
| arachnist | so 2 of them can die before i actually lose data | 01:58 |
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| CosmoHill | i ended up with about 7 samsung spinpoiints | 01:59 |
| ShadowJK | The fun thing about that seagate firmware failure was that the drives would fail when a counter reached a certain value, so in raid situations where the drives were powered on/off at the same time and had run for approximately similar lengths of time, it was very common to see all the drives in the raid array fail at the same time :) | 01:59 |
| CosmoHill | i would have more if my supplier did them in 7600rpm | 01:59 |
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| arachnist | ShadowJK: well, important data of them is backed up to a mirror of hitachi drives on a different pc | 02:00 |
| arachnist | (yay for zfs send/zfs recv and incremental backups) | 02:00 |
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| CosmoHill | my server has one 200GB ATA and two 500GB SATA RAID 1 | 02:01 |
| microlith | ShadowJK: for a very, very strange definition of "fun" :p | 02:02 |
| ShadowJK | microlith :) | 02:02 |
| ShadowJK | microlith, some russians eventually reverse engineered the diagnostic port on the seagate drives and found a way to talk to the controller and "fix" it.. it involved booting the board without the drive connected, then hot-connecting the drive and executing some strange incantations in the drive board's OS :) | 02:03 |
| CosmoHill | it's funny if it's not your array | 02:03 |
| microlith | ShadowJK: now that's cool, if a bit scary | 02:03 |
| microlith | speaking of diagnostic ports, if no one else is going to do it I should borrow some equipment at work and find out which of the pads in the battery compartment go to the serial port | 02:04 |
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| CosmoHill | is it weird that I'm talking to you on one laptop and watching a video on another? | 02:08 |
| microlith | no | 02:08 |
| CosmoHill | I'm also in bed | 02:09 |
| microlith | I have four monitors facing me | 02:09 |
| bfree | CosmoHill: stop there, too much info already ;-) | 02:09 |
| CosmoHill | I'm watching a comedy show btw | 02:09 |
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| jacquesdupontd | is anybody here ? | 02:12 |
| CosmoHill | no | 02:12 |
| CosmoHill | they went to the pub | 02:13 |
| CosmoHill | but they all have smart phones so they are here | 02:13 |
| jacquesdupontd | ok | 02:13 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm azt the pub | 02:13 |
| jacquesdupontd | gaga | 02:13 |
| jacquesdupontd | sqok | 02:13 |
| jacquesdupontd | oops | 02:13 |
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| jacquesdupontd | i had a dream | 02:13 |
| CosmoHill | does it invole meego on a powerbook? | 02:13 |
| jacquesdupontd | in fact i saw time after time that phones were starting from sort of html ui | 02:14 |
| jacquesdupontd | and then they began to start using flash for smoothie effects | 02:14 |
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| jacquesdupontd | everybody agrees this fact ? | 02:14 |
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| CosmoHill | flash is evil | 02:14 |
| jacquesdupontd | true | 02:15 |
| jacquesdupontd | thats the point of my dream | 02:15 |
| CosmoHill | ah | 02:15 |
| jacquesdupontd | yep | 02:15 |
| CosmoHill | flash doesn't even run well on my laptop | 02:15 |
| jacquesdupontd | do you know about new possibilities with html5 ? | 02:15 |
| lcuk | jacquesdupontd, back to your dream | 02:15 |
| lcuk | most people dont normally specify versions in dream sequences ;) | 02:16 |
| jacquesdupontd | they did really great stuff in order to avoid flash | 02:16 |
| jacquesdupontd | haha | 02:16 |
| lcuk | tho ive been told i discuss code in sleep | 02:16 |
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| jacquesdupontd | that way im thinking there's a really really good opportunity comming back to simple html ui's that are able to be as beautiful as flash ui's and a lot lot lot less powerneeding | 02:17 |
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| jacquesdupontd | i'm like tesla, i'm lucid drreams where i build things and repair them and then when i wake up i just build it perfectly | 02:17 |
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| jacquesdupontd | dreams=dreamer | 02:18 |
| lcuk | cool, what sort of stuff have you built? | 02:18 |
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| lcuk | i just follow ideas i have, sometimes as im dropping off to sleep i have to make notes | 02:19 |
| jacquesdupontd | no but seriously there's a good oportunity to crash that flash s.... and get back to easy and beautiful ui's that are not taking by themself half of the device power | 02:19 |
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| lcuk | im being serious, what sort of stuff have you built! | 02:19 |
| lcuk | i understand what you are saying perfectly | 02:20 |
| arjan | one suggestion; don't irc-sleep ;-) | 02:20 |
| arjan | that's worse than irc-while-drunk | 02:20 |
| jacquesdupontd | and you can't disagree that fact, today's ui, i mean the most beautiful ones aren't enought intuitive to be built to that point | 02:20 |
| jacquesdupontd | nah i just took drugs | 02:20 |
| lcuk | rendering engine for the n810 and 900 http://www.youtube.com/user/lcukmaemo#p/a/u/2/7hGUKICDeok | 02:20 |
| w00t_ | http://blog.rburchell.com/2010/02/pyside-tutorial-model-view-programming_22.html <- another new tutorial on Qt development in python, if anyone is interested</plug> | 02:20 |
| jacquesdupontd | no seriously for now i didn't do anythings | 02:20 |
| CosmoHill | irc sleep? | 02:21 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm simply suggesting cause i'm bulding a tabletcomputer | 02:21 |
| jacquesdupontd | and i'm at the software state, i'm trying many of those existing , including moblin, those mid ubuntu distrib, mer, etc... and my choice was to make a device better than a netbook | 02:22 |
| CosmoHill | that reminds me | 02:22 |
| CosmoHill | i thought the ipad was going to take out the modbook | 02:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Does anybody object to the Who's Who page being groups more meaningfully and alphabetized? | 02:22 |
| CosmoHill | but the ipad is just an upsaled ipod touch | 02:22 |
| jacquesdupontd | cause i dont like when things are just "Working" i want them to run fast | 02:23 |
| CosmoHill | GeneralAntilles: sounds good to me | 02:23 |
| lcuk | jacquesdupontd, what the video | 02:23 |
| lcuk | watch even | 02:23 |
| arjan | GeneralAntilles: go wild | 02:23 |
| * lcuk should irc sleep | 02:23 | |
| lcuk | lol GeneralAntilles | 02:23 |
| CosmoHill | if I'm on IRC i'm normally awake | 02:23 |
| CosmoHill | however in the summer i normally fall sleep in the afternoon | 02:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, except for the fact that I can't actually edit anything on the wiki. | 02:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nevermind then. | 02:24 |
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| jacquesdupontd | i don't wanna see anylag in a tablet that is also a beautiful object, to me it's like doing half work and lying to custemers selling them something shinny and then just working enought to go on internet, and well yes it goes on internet, tbut then they have to buy 1 computer for work , one for travelling, one for personnal use, one for kitchen | 02:24 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ugh, let's play the "try to get your email address re-confirmed" game. | 02:25 |
| lcuk | so jacquesdupontd how are you going to go about it | 02:25 |
| jacquesdupontd | that i was i prefer selling a tablet at 600 or 700 boxes working pefectly for different uses adaptating itself to the place you are by changing the UI to be used etc ... | 02:26 |
| * GeneralAntilles can see meego.com isn't having any more fun with SSO than maemo.org. | 02:26 | |
| CosmoHill | SSO? | 02:26 |
| jacquesdupontd | i don't know for now what's gonna be the bast | 02:26 |
| jacquesdupontd | base | 02:26 |
| lcuk | single sign on | 02:26 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm thinking of a ubuntu-minimal | 02:26 |
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| lcuk | jacquesdupontd, but all these different sizes are going to need different uis to work | 02:26 |
| CosmoHill | build your own distro | 02:26 |
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| jacquesdupontd | and then either taking a window manager like kde which's getting really beautiful, and modifying it in order to be used with different profiles, well 2 big profile, 1 = bluetooth keyboard and mouse when i come back home, means normal resolution and computer UI, the other : finger use and internet browsing when big buttons but still beautiful | 02:27 |
| CosmoHill | if i was a mute a table would be awesome | 02:28 |
| CosmoHill | it's like a small white board with wifi | 02:28 |
| jacquesdupontd | CosmoHill i can't build my own distro's first cause i don't have that much time, and then cause there's some already done that i like, ubuntu, maemo (more for little mid) that can be used and then modified | 02:28 |
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| jacquesdupontd | what's sure is that i'll base it on debian | 02:28 |
| jacquesdupontd | then i'll build my stuff for the 2 big UIS | 02:29 |
| CosmoHill | I can build a basic distro in about 2 days | 02:29 |
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| jacquesdupontd | i want them to be changeable in a hand movement and the keyboard and mouse connected by the fact the tablet came back to your room | 02:29 |
| jacquesdupontd | thinking about using rfid | 02:29 |
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| jacquesdupontd | CosmoHill really ? | 02:30 |
| CosmoHill | :) | 02:30 |
| arjan | building a distro is not all that hard | 02:30 |
| jacquesdupontd | cause the thing is i'm quite alone in my project | 02:30 |
| CosmoHill | following a book that is | 02:30 |
| jacquesdupontd | i know | 02:30 |
| jacquesdupontd | but in 2 days :) | 02:30 |
| arjan | building one that works fast and does what you want... different story | 02:30 |
| jacquesdupontd | yeah | 02:30 |
| CosmoHill | jacquesdupontd: if i skip the tests and use my new laptop it would be a lot faster | 02:30 |
| jacquesdupontd | don't you think the debian base is completly enough nowadays ? | 02:30 |
| arjan | jacquesdupontd: depends on what you want | 02:30 |
| arjan | esp how much you want to customize | 02:31 |
| lcuk | building a distro: | 02:31 |
| lcuk | (1) steal underpants | 02:31 |
| lcuk | (2) ??? | 02:31 |
| lcuk | (3) profit | 02:31 |
| jacquesdupontd | i wanna make a device that can evolve very easily even as much as a desktop computer i wanna offer the possibility to people not to be restricted for a marketing reason | 02:31 |
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| jacquesdupontd | i'm sure we can still make money being a good guy | 02:31 |
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| CosmoHill | jacquesdupontd: I've built a distro for x86, ultrasparc and ppc | 02:32 |
| lcuk | jacquesdupontd, when you say beautiful, what do you base beauty on | 02:33 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm thinking that if you got the trust of clients that they see you're not lying to them, not trying to avoid the possibility for them to upgrade their stuff alone, if you show them that you're not taking them for childs but taking care about people not in an advanced state, that will make a so big change compared to other compagnies that you gonna get a place | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | hmm | 02:33 |
| jacquesdupontd | i wanna bet on that | 02:33 |
| jacquesdupontd | beautiful means | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | one of the guys in irc went into apple and asked about a known problem with the 27" imac | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | person working there said there was no problem and he walked out | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | £1300 less for them | 02:34 |
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| jacquesdupontd | clear : intuitive, intelligent, close to us, the one that you nearly wanna touch to see if its really smooth | 02:34 |
| jacquesdupontd | do you understand ? and that's the point cause we are in a touchable device | 02:34 |
| lcuk | like, give examples where you have seen such things | 02:34 |
| arjan | jacquesdupontd: develop software like that .... but it likely doesnt depend on what OS you use as base, be it meego or whatever | 02:34 |
| lcuk | you couldv just described a fart in a bubble bath | 02:34 |
| jacquesdupontd | effects are relaly appreciated, for me something between, os x mobile and compiz could be cool | 02:34 |
| CosmoHill | bah | 02:35 |
| CosmoHill | apple bastards | 02:35 |
| jacquesdupontd | cause compiz is really good when well set, but i think it needs to get simplified for a good ui | 02:35 |
| lcuk | right, so iphone ui | 02:35 |
| jacquesdupontd | CosmoHill i know, but i have to admit things | 02:35 |
| jacquesdupontd | when i use an iphone, it just works | 02:35 |
| * CosmoHill is still trying to workout the rules on swearing | 02:35 | |
| arjan | compiz looks fun for a few minutes, and then you turn it off | 02:35 |
| jacquesdupontd | wich is not the case of all device | 02:35 |
| lcuk | apart from when it doesnt | 02:35 |
| arjan | at least that seems to be the common pattern | 02:35 |
| lcuk | how would you handle multi processes in that environment? | 02:36 |
| jacquesdupontd | we can discuss 10 hours about it that won't change, i really dislike apple and they are one reason i'm starting a device | 02:36 |
| lcuk | cos everything yo urun will eat into that beauty | 02:36 |
| CosmoHill | arjan: lol | 02:36 |
| lcuk | i hope fart isnt a swear word | 02:36 |
| jacquesdupontd | i ran multiprocess in my iphone, but anyway i'm not talking about the environment i told you i was prefering debian for base, jsut talking about the UI | 02:36 |
| lcuk | its descriptive | 02:36 |
| CosmoHill | your from england right, lcuk | 02:36 |
| lcuk | yes | 02:37 |
| jacquesdupontd | easy to see that everybody tried to copy iphone ui when the first iphone got out | 02:37 |
| lcuk | nahh, not everyone | 02:37 |
| CosmoHill | a problem i have in my irc channel is that the english and the americans concider different things rude | 02:37 |
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| lcuk | anyway, iphone is sluggish | 02:37 |
| lcuk | doesnt do what i want | 02:37 |
| lcuk | low res | 02:37 |
| jacquesdupontd | i mean, it doesn't have to be the same, as i said i want people to be able to control their device, not to be slave of it , but we have to admit that everybody knows how to use an iphone in 1 hours maximum | 02:37 |
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| lcuk | closed source | 02:38 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's what i call intuitive, if we could mix that intuitivity to possibilities and confidence, that would be perfect | 02:38 |
| CosmoHill | the iphone doesn't meet my requirments | 02:38 |
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| lcuk | “Sequence shortened” | 02:38 |
| CosmoHill | you can only use the bluetooth with other iphones | 02:38 |
| lcuk | no keyboard | 02:38 |
| jacquesdupontd | we stop talking about iphones thazt's not the point i'm not building an iphone | 02:38 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm just building an ipad that is not a big iphone, that's the point :) | 02:39 |
| lcuk | we get it, you want something that acts like an iphone | 02:39 |
| CosmoHill | like the lg pop? | 02:39 |
| jacquesdupontd | yesterday i was thinking and i was imaginating MS making a big tablet, and putting ms mobile on it and i was so laughtingh | 02:40 |
| lcuk | jacquesdupontd, have you seen the always innovating touchbook | 02:40 |
| jacquesdupontd | nobody would accept it and would think its a false device found on ebay hong kong | 02:40 |
| jacquesdupontd | lcuk yes | 02:40 |
| jacquesdupontd | and there are near to what i'm donig but details or not the same | 02:40 |
| jacquesdupontd | cause they've bet on beagle boards, i'm betting on normal board | 02:41 |
| lcuk | theres also this cool new project too | 02:41 |
| lcuk | you mightv heard about it | 02:41 |
| lcuk | called meego | 02:41 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm just looking at the past, see netbooks | 02:41 |
| jacquesdupontd | what are netbooks configurations nowadays ? ALL THE SAME | 02:41 |
| jacquesdupontd | and people gonna reproduce the thing with tablet | 02:41 |
| jacquesdupontd | they are building device that has Just the Necessary | 02:41 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'll call the JTND Just THe Necessary Devices | 02:42 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's class no ? | 02:42 |
| jacquesdupontd | but alwyays innovating touchbook are ... hmm innovating :)à | 02:42 |
| jacquesdupontd | and french like me | 02:42 |
| jacquesdupontd | don't you agree ? | 02:43 |
| jacquesdupontd | you know i'm just getting point of view here and i wanna be countered if you guys has better ideas or think about things that i'm not aware of | 02:44 |
| arjan | doing your own hardware is a risk ;) | 02:44 |
| arjan | might want to consider running on existing devices | 02:44 |
| lcuk | arjan, i said that last night :p | 02:44 |
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| jacquesdupontd | btw if anybody would like to work on the project knowing that i can't promess anything but i have good reason to think it can be a good oportunity to launch a good project and at the same time to be builders of the future | 02:44 |
| lcuk | jacquesdupontd, go read up about meego | 02:45 |
| lcuk | it does what you said | 02:45 |
| jacquesdupontd | yeah | 02:45 |
| jacquesdupontd | i wanna use some existing motherboards on the beginning | 02:45 |
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| jacquesdupontd | you know i'm not expecting or hoping to make the best device and the best way, what i'm sure of is the price of my device, what'll be able to do, and how it will be made | 02:46 |
| jacquesdupontd | and only with that we can make a lot better than what's existing , then after bank pass, i'll be thinking about optimising | 02:46 |
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| jacquesdupontd | the first point is not to be selfish | 02:47 |
| lcuk | jacquesdupontd, Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your blog. | 02:48 |
| jacquesdupontd | for me that's amazing to think that nowadays , you can buy a 300 euros real laptop, and if you're just a little bit ingenious build your own tablet with the ui you want and have if for really cheaper than worst devices supposed to represent the futur | 02:49 |
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| jacquesdupontd | i tell you, i'm not promising anything, what i know is i have the bank links, i've got my enterprise, my ideas, and i think this is the time to move my ass instead of keeping my ideas for me all the time and seeing things going out always worse than what i was thinking about making and being sold very easily anyway | 02:50 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm a lot counting on people councious | 02:51 |
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| jacquesdupontd | and i'm knowing the world aint seperated in 2 big parts, the good people and the bad ones, it's a lot more complex, but we really can do better and easily and you all know it set on your couch | 02:52 |
| jacquesdupontd | :) | 02:52 |
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| ali1234 | i compiled my first rpm in mock | 02:52 |
| ali1234 | now pulling all the moblin source | 02:52 |
| ali1234 | i'm keeping notes | 02:52 |
| ali1234 | setting up mock for moblin was not exactly easy | 02:52 |
| arjan | ali1234: what was the chroot issue ? | 02:53 |
| lcuk | ali1234, cool, so you got over the issue of chrooting the chroot generting mock | 02:53 |
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| jacquesdupontd | that's really cool | 02:53 |
| ali1234 | the chroot issue was: my mock temp dir was not set stick for group permissions (g+s) and then my scratch disk was mounted as nodev, nosuid | 02:53 |
| arjan | hehe nosuid will do it | 02:53 |
| jacquesdupontd | this are the stuff i don't have time to do, cause if i wanna have something ready before ipad, even if it's not that important to be before them cause i'm not pointing the exact same customers, i have to go fast anyway | 02:54 |
| ali1234 | nodev actually killed it first: permission denied on /dev/null for some perl script | 02:54 |
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| jacquesdupontd | hehe | 02:54 |
| ali1234 | jacquesdupontd: plenty of people have made tablets years ago. the hard part is getting them in shops... | 02:54 |
| arjan | not having /dev/null makes things go splat very very quickly | 02:55 |
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| jacquesdupontd | guys we all know that is the time of touch book now like it was the time of netbook just before, and for those who've made tablets years ago they were not unerstanding customers state in computers at this moment | 02:56 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's why it went down, it's like do you remember the first visio phones ? | 02:56 |
| jacquesdupontd | exactly same story | 02:56 |
| ali1234 | personally i think now is the time of the smartbook | 02:56 |
| ali1234 | because for me anything without a keyboard is useless | 02:56 |
| ali1234 | and a large exposed screen is just asking for it do get sat on and broken | 02:56 |
| jacquesdupontd | when a big compagnie like Apple is dictating the world and giving the start for the fight, you have to look at the near past and to take your chance to make the challenge and to show them that this time they shouldn't have waited to long to evolve | 02:57 |
| ali1234 | heh... let apple create the demand with their marketing, then offer something cheaper and better | 02:58 |
| ali1234 | like i said the other day... everyone wants to be the second person to do something | 02:58 |
| jacquesdupontd | cause as they're alone to be shown as smart and designers, they can do whatever they want people won't have choices to have better, they could do the ipad v10 right now, but they are using the first rule in marketting , one idea after another | 02:58 |
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| jacquesdupontd | use ideas the most you can so you get the more money on it, even you're stopping things to evolve | 02:58 |
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| jacquesdupontd | i think people are beginning to understand that way of doing and are really bored about it , there's a chance | 02:59 |
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| lcuk | so jacquesdupontd put your ideas on paper or get coding | 02:59 |
| jacquesdupontd | at least for a good start | 02:59 |
| CosmoHill | if anyone wants me just poke | 02:59 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm doing my stuff and i'm hoping to be able to post to you a video at the end of the weekd | 02:59 |
| * lcuk pokes CosmoHill with a big stick | 02:59 | |
| jacquesdupontd | i jsut received my needed packages comming from hong kong to finish the first built | 03:00 |
| CosmoHill | oh my dirty mind misread that | 03:00 |
| jacquesdupontd | i have to got to take it tomorow at the mail office | 03:00 |
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| jacquesdupontd | and then , working no it all the week till this week end, and first presentation previewed next week at different banks, to have just a few euros, at least enought to be able to do thing better enought to be sold | 03:01 |
| * lcuk kicks machines at the other end of email connections | 03:01 | |
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| jacquesdupontd | hm btw a question without any link | 03:02 |
| lcuk | oooooh jacquesdupontd i cant wait, the suspense since you entered the chan has climbed steadily | 03:02 |
| jacquesdupontd | is there an issue for moblin and nvidia and xinerama and composite ? | 03:02 |
| lcuk | it will reach feverpitch by next week | 03:02 |
| jacquesdupontd | and clutter-glx | 03:02 |
| lcuk | when will us mere mortals learn of your plans? | 03:02 |
| jacquesdupontd | lcuk i'm not goint to do anything better than what you can expect | 03:03 |
| jacquesdupontd | a tablet with a good linux with a good ui and good design is makeable by anybody | 03:03 |
| jacquesdupontd | then details will play | 03:03 |
| lcuk | jacquesdupontd, what you propose would take solid hard work from a massive team of people a long time to get to where you think it needs to be | 03:03 |
| jacquesdupontd | oh | 03:04 |
| jacquesdupontd | no not thinking that way | 03:04 |
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| lcuk | do you have any idea of the kind of experience required to create multiple uis for every application you desire will take | 03:04 |
| jacquesdupontd | you can be sure that if any thing is working for everybody that played in it means teams of existing ui's if i'm using some will be helped in a way or another | 03:04 |
| jacquesdupontd | as i told you i think there's for sure a way to do good things fairly and sill be working and earning money enought to continue | 03:05 |
| ali1234 | hmm i bet there are a lot of srpms that begin with l | 03:05 |
| jacquesdupontd | i can live with nearly nothing, my love is to have ideas and to build things, it can be music , painting, devices, if people use them like them and that i can even more thank some others | 03:05 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's all i want | 03:06 |
| lcuk | then get on with it | 03:06 |
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| jacquesdupontd | that'll make exactly as when i play my music and when people are dancing or smiling on it | 03:06 |
| lcuk | what language will you use? | 03:06 |
| jacquesdupontd | lcuk yes i'm gonna do it | 03:06 |
| jacquesdupontd | thatwhat i was talking about on my first talk on the channel | 03:07 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm thinking about comming back to html5 | 03:07 |
| jacquesdupontd | cause it offers possibilities that can bypass the use of flash | 03:07 |
| lcuk | sure | 03:07 |
| lcuk | but that paradigm breaks down at some level | 03:07 |
| jacquesdupontd | but i've got to get back into it | 03:07 |
| lcuk | no, you need a backend renderer for it | 03:07 |
| jacquesdupontd | and very fast that's why i was searching for people who may have already thought about it and who may have ideas or would like to get in the project | 03:07 |
| lcuk | and the api to support it | 03:07 |
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| CosmoHill | night ngiht | 03:08 |
| lcuk | just so one day a person can <twit>going to the toilet</twit> | 03:08 |
| ali1234 | html5 already has plenty of backend renders | 03:08 |
| lcuk | gnite cosmo | 03:08 |
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| jacquesdupontd | yes | 03:08 |
| lcuk | but how do you make an operating system out of them | 03:08 |
| ali1234 | gee i dunno, but palm managed it | 03:09 |
| lcuk | indeed | 03:09 |
| lcuk | and i bet it took a lot longer than a week | 03:09 |
| jacquesdupontd | but i dont' see what's hard in installing a ubuntu or debian based to be precise, and just to set it the way you think with existing apps, that's a good start, that's what did edubuntu , ubuntu studio etc ..... | 03:09 |
| jacquesdupontd | then if things are getting good you be surely thinking about building your own system | 03:09 |
| jacquesdupontd | but i don't think i've got the time to do it now, we can start with existing things and then have money = time = possiblities = people = enthousiasm = concrete | 03:10 |
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| ali1234 | i bet if you discount all the time developers were sleeping under their desks it only took 3 days to make webos | 03:10 |
| jacquesdupontd | haha | 03:11 |
| jacquesdupontd | ali1234 i'm thinking of webos for sure | 03:11 |
| jacquesdupontd | but i think it's a little bit too early | 03:11 |
| ali1234 | at this rate it's gonna take me more than a wekk just to get the moblin source | 03:12 |
| jacquesdupontd | but we are surely going to at least a simple os on the computer, that will synchronise completly with the exact same os on the web useable from any device | 03:12 |
| ali1234 | sounds like alex | 03:12 |
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| ali1234 | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8522952.stm | 03:12 |
| jacquesdupontd | i was using webos at work 4 years ago | 03:12 |
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| jacquesdupontd | but the thing is until all devices are able to connect to the internet really easily and without paying the price of 1 week food | 03:13 |
| ali1234 | yeah that's the problem | 03:13 |
| jacquesdupontd | we'll have to make them discover other os's by the fact they are changing now of devices | 03:13 |
| ali1234 | (with server based computing) | 03:14 |
| ali1234 | you always need the server | 03:14 |
| jacquesdupontd | ms and apple were a problem cause they were god of PCs but now we are changing the devices, people will accept a lot easier to change the interface, and we saw it with netbooks | 03:14 |
| ali1234 | so you end up paying silly amounts for always-on connection | 03:14 |
| jacquesdupontd | yep | 03:14 |
| jacquesdupontd | but i've got my ideas on it | 03:14 |
| jacquesdupontd | but would be a total different way of thinking the internet and servers | 03:15 |
| jacquesdupontd | would be based on neightbourhood | 03:15 |
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| ali1234 | well, you know, the internet isn't the end-all of networks | 03:15 |
| jacquesdupontd | to seperate the internet not in humans but in bench of humans | 03:15 |
| ali1234 | avahi? | 03:15 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's hard to explain | 03:15 |
| jacquesdupontd | but the principe is together we are stronger, and that's the same for computers | 03:16 |
| ali1234 | if you encrypt everything you can just push your messages to everyone in range, in the hopes that eventually one of them will go in range of the recipient | 03:16 |
| jacquesdupontd | we already see community of people sharing the wifi connection | 03:16 |
| jacquesdupontd | my idea is based on that way of thinking | 03:16 |
| ali1234 | add a bit of intelligence (ie looking at who knows who from their social networking profiles) and that could work very well | 03:17 |
| jacquesdupontd | viruses knows the most way what i'm saying | 03:17 |
| ShadowJK | mesh networking? | 03:17 |
| jacquesdupontd | ali1234 exactly !! | 03:17 |
| ali1234 | not mesh networking, i'm thinking more like email | 03:17 |
| jacquesdupontd | ali1234 happy to see someone thinking things are possible | 03:17 |
| ali1234 | or like the old fidonet where everything goes through multiple nodes and takes sometimes days anyway | 03:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | fidonet - yeehaa | 03:18 |
| ali1234 | so alice emails bob, but bob is out of range of the avahi network. but on the social network we see bob lives with colin, who is in range. so the message goes to colin's machine, and when he gets home it gets delivered to bob | 03:18 |
| arjan | this sounds like usenet | 03:19 |
| jacquesdupontd | well, what i wanted to say is that i don't want to touch a SQUARE GREY OLD LAGGING button, i prefer a round smoothie and shinny one :) | 03:19 |
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| jacquesdupontd | ali1234 that's prolly what im thinking of, a p2 multiple peer but with near neighboorhood with antennas and wimax i dont' know | 03:20 |
| ali1234 | jacquesdupontd: why limit it to a specific protocol, just turn on avahi and let rip :) | 03:20 |
| ShadowJK | the HAMs have this aprs system that relays things.. kinda cool | 03:20 |
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| jacquesdupontd | ali1234 that was an understandable example but for not that protocol | 03:21 |
| fnordian900 | ali1234, check out dtnrg.org for delay tolerant networking. sounds like what you are interested in. | 03:22 |
| jacquesdupontd | ali1234 jus to explain base of my tought | 03:22 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's why i need not to handle all that by myselft :) | 03:22 |
| jacquesdupontd | i can't be awaare of everything all the time | 03:23 |
| ali1234 | well, the delay is less important than the routing, i think | 03:23 |
| jacquesdupontd | totally agree | 03:24 |
| fnordian900 | i've had the DTN2 reference implementation working over bluetooth, tcp/ip with avahi disccovery and over ax25 with ham radio gear. also good for data mules. | 03:24 |
| jacquesdupontd | a good routing is the most needed | 03:24 |
| jacquesdupontd | bluetooth ? | 03:24 |
| ali1234 | specifically, selecting a route/peer using your social networking data | 03:24 |
| fnordian900 | it supports delay tolernt link state routin. | 03:24 |
| fnordian900 | dtn directly over layer-2 bluetooth | 03:25 |
| jacquesdupontd | interesting | 03:25 |
| ali1234 | i run synergy over bluetooth sockets, it is win :) | 03:25 |
| jacquesdupontd | well everybody's got bluetooth now | 03:25 |
| fnordian900 | ran nicely on N800. not tried on N900 yet. | 03:26 |
| jacquesdupontd | i tried | 03:26 |
| jacquesdupontd | a friend of mine's got the n900 | 03:26 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's how i discovered the appreciated maemo | 03:26 |
| fnordian900 | I'll build it soon for maemo5. | 03:27 |
| jacquesdupontd | well we've made some transfert and it was reaching the 100 and more KO/s with a computer | 03:27 |
| jacquesdupontd | great | 03:27 |
| jacquesdupontd | maemo is surely what i'll try to use if build a little device | 03:27 |
| jacquesdupontd | i tried android yesterday | 03:28 |
| fnordian900 | not meego? | 03:28 |
| jacquesdupontd | on a computer | 03:28 |
| jacquesdupontd | meego is moblin so yes :) | 03:28 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm already using moblin | 03:28 |
| jacquesdupontd | i think thats the best ui for touchable computer for now | 03:28 |
| jacquesdupontd | but for my device wich is a real laptop computer based on a sempron, i'm using a debian base | 03:29 |
| jacquesdupontd | built with moblin | 03:29 |
| ali1234 | android is kind of boring without the google sign-on | 03:29 |
| jacquesdupontd | but as i told you on smaller devices i would use maemo like meego is going to do | 03:29 |
| jacquesdupontd | really boring | 03:29 |
| ali1234 | no apps, no maps, what's the point? | 03:29 |
| jacquesdupontd | i didn't liked it at all | 03:29 |
| fnordian900 | was running #! on my eee but its ext2 is buggered, so may wipe it and try the first public meego on it | 03:29 |
| jacquesdupontd | ok i was on a computer but, not intuitive at all | 03:30 |
| jacquesdupontd | the ui is cold | 03:30 |
| jacquesdupontd | i tried also chrome os | 03:31 |
| ali1234 | me too, it's just chrome fullscreen... again, pointless | 03:31 |
| jacquesdupontd | same here, the maximised windows that tells you not to look behind is getting me frustrated | 03:31 |
| ali1234 | i can get the same thing on any computer. the only reason to use it is you are scared of computers :) | 03:31 |
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| jacquesdupontd | and i can feel the power of google controlling my possibilities | 03:32 |
| jacquesdupontd | exact | 03:32 |
| jacquesdupontd | evolving deosn't mean goign to have only a browser | 03:32 |
| jacquesdupontd | soon you'll have your calculator tht's all | 03:33 |
| jacquesdupontd | you'll browse binary numbers | 03:33 |
| ali1234 | yep. internet connections go down, and i like that it doesn't take my whole OS with it | 03:33 |
| jacquesdupontd | the fact is , i want my computer to do THINGS | 03:33 |
| ali1234 | although i guess html5 has that offline stuff | 03:33 |
| jacquesdupontd | TOUCH = PIANO, MUSIC, DESIGN, = need of tools and power | 03:34 |
| ali1234 | but still, i don't trust it | 03:34 |
| jacquesdupontd | doesn't need to be netbooks not able to run 10 internet pages without lagging | 03:34 |
| jacquesdupontd | and false 3d ui's with artefact when moving | 03:34 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's the mots horrible for me, i prefer a way more a 2d simple UI reacting perfectly than a false 3d one trying to copy some other's seen and lagging as hell (but it works they'll say, look at my beagle board, it's very little) | 03:35 |
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| jacquesdupontd | the best example i have is the first touching devices of samsung | 03:36 |
| jacquesdupontd | i don't know how we can be so big and putting on the market a so bad device | 03:36 |
| jacquesdupontd | just to say we are doing touchable devices too | 03:36 |
| ali1234 | you work for samsung? | 03:37 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's why i'm sure we can do better | 03:37 |
| jacquesdupontd | no i'm not working for samsung and i'm sure people that work there do agree with me | 03:37 |
| jacquesdupontd | they simply doesn't have the time and the choice | 03:37 |
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| ali1234 | your use of "we" implied that you do | 03:38 |
| jacquesdupontd | anyway they've said we wont try to have the best device out, we're going to make 10 or 20 smart phones to be on the market and be bought by people that are not really knowing what to choose | 03:38 |
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| jacquesdupontd | that's a really really bad way of thinking | 03:38 |
| jacquesdupontd | at least they should have avoid saying it to me | 03:38 |
| LinuxCode | ? | 03:38 |
| jacquesdupontd | i mean by internet | 03:38 |
| jacquesdupontd | but anyway | 03:38 |
| jacquesdupontd | we don't say that like hey guys, we're playing on you're stupidness and the fact you don't have time to check that we are bad people | 03:39 |
| LinuxCode | I think many manufacturers are now trying to make devices wearable as watches | 03:39 |
| jacquesdupontd | yes | 03:39 |
| LinuxCode | or as options, smart internet devices | 03:39 |
| jacquesdupontd | they think it's the only way to beat THE iphone | 03:39 |
| LinuxCode | ? | 03:40 |
| LinuxCode | I have my doubts | 03:40 |
| jacquesdupontd | but are they stupid ? just make a way better device | 03:40 |
| jacquesdupontd | for sure they all say it | 03:40 |
| LinuxCode | as long as the iphone cant do multi-tasking... its crap | 03:40 |
| LinuxCode | no flash | 03:40 |
| jacquesdupontd | when iphones got out manufacturers tought wow, we have to work now | 03:40 |
| ali1234 | crap sells, i guess | 03:40 |
| microlith | people bash the iphone, but frankly until it came out few people gave a damn about having a smartphone | 03:41 |
| microlith | at least in the US | 03:41 |
| ali1234 | very true | 03:41 |
| jacquesdupontd | LinuxCode that's crap for us, advanced user thazt understand easily how that's crap (my iphone is multitask anyway) but for poeple lambda people they just see smooth intuitive working device and think that after all it's a long time they've been searching a working and beautiful device | 03:41 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's all they see | 03:41 |
| ali1234 | people shouldn't get so worked up over the iphone, it isn't reducing the market for alternatives at all. that market was always tiny to begin with. | 03:42 |
| ShadowJK | claiming an interface is intuitive automatically makes you a moron imo :) | 03:42 |
| ali1234 | it's hard to sell linux on people until they've been burned by windows (for example) | 03:42 |
| jacquesdupontd | so now either we choose to sell devices to our geek friend that will sell us their device too and we stay alone with our advance in awareness or we take care of people search trying not to fool them at the same time and btw making them understand what means multitask | 03:43 |
| eeanm | haha thanks ShadowJK :) | 03:43 |
| LinuxCode | ali1234, I dont think people care if it is linux or not | 03:43 |
| LinuxCode | as long as it works | 03:43 |
| LinuxCode | and works well | 03:43 |
| LinuxCode | and they can sync their stuff | 03:43 |
| ali1234 | LinuxCode: exactly. people won;t care that the iphone is so locked down until it burns them | 03:43 |
| jacquesdupontd | market would be FIrst Computer = Mono Task, New Cpu's = Multitask , First Apple devices = multitask , New apple devices = Monotask | 03:43 |
| ali1234 | if it never does, well then, no problem | 03:44 |
| jacquesdupontd | and then people understand apple = stopping evolution of possibilities | 03:44 |
| LinuxCode | jacquesdupontd, who cares anyway | 03:44 |
| jacquesdupontd | we'll see :) | 03:44 |
| jacquesdupontd | i bet and i hope that enought people will care for me to continue to realise toughts | 03:45 |
| jacquesdupontd | i can't stay paralised on my couch watching stupid people ruling the world and saying it to everybody without even trying to do something concrete | 03:46 |
| eeanm | apple is just repeating the mistake of refusing to let others use their OS. | 03:46 |
| eeanm | it's just the 80s over again | 03:46 |
| microlith | eeanm: refusing to let others use their OS has been highly effective, apparently | 03:46 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's why this is the time to do your stuff guys | 03:46 |
| eeanm | not in the long term | 03:46 |
| jacquesdupontd | its NOW | 03:46 |
| LinuxCode | eeanm, lol | 03:46 |
| jacquesdupontd | not tomorow not yesterday but now | 03:46 |
| LinuxCode | yes in the long term | 03:46 |
| LinuxCode | they have 8% of the pc market now, growing yearly | 03:47 |
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| LinuxCode | they had less than 3% or so 5 years ago | 03:47 |
| jacquesdupontd | we will always start little but things can accelerate in an idea time | 03:47 |
| eeanm | wow 8%, only took them 20 years :) | 03:47 |
| LinuxCode | eeanm, so ? | 03:47 |
| jacquesdupontd | exactly | 03:47 |
| LinuxCode | there is more and more competition | 03:47 |
| eeanm | microsoft's model is much better. that's what android and meego are doing. | 03:47 |
| LinuxCode | not less | 03:47 |
| LinuxCode | lol | 03:47 |
| ali1234 | they have the 8% that is most willing to spend loads and loads of money | 03:47 |
| jacquesdupontd | just watch their evolution, it means its possible to everybody now in this society to grow very fast | 03:47 |
| LinuxCode | meego came about to save costs | 03:47 |
| microlith | eeanm: microsoft's model is built around lock-in and backwards compatibility now | 03:48 |
| jacquesdupontd | but you have to go strong directly | 03:48 |
| ali1234 | would you rather have those 8% or the other 92% who are cheap-ass? | 03:48 |
| LinuxCode | and increase developers being interested | 03:48 |
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| microlith | the -only- reason I'm on windows is games | 03:48 |
| eeanm | microlith: compared to apple microsoft is totally open. | 03:48 |
| microlith | hahaha | 03:48 |
| eeanm | microlith: and I just meant: they allow multiple hardware vendors to use their software | 03:48 |
| jacquesdupontd | you have to shake all that | 03:48 |
| jacquesdupontd | doing things totally differently that's what they did | 03:48 |
| jacquesdupontd | playing on the surprise and then on impatience | 03:49 |
| jacquesdupontd | cause you get addicted to be waiting | 03:49 |
| LinuxCode | as long as I dont have to run linux on a Jornada 710 anymore Im happy | 03:49 |
| LinuxCode | N810 was a huge improvement on that | 03:49 |
| ali1234 | wow that thing is old... | 03:50 |
| LinuxCode | N900 is again an improvement | 03:50 |
| LinuxCode | ali1234, but has a 3/4 keybaord | 03:50 |
| LinuxCode | ;-p | 03:50 |
| LinuxCode | which was quite nice | 03:50 |
| ali1234 | get a universal? | 03:50 |
| LinuxCode | universal ? | 03:50 |
| ali1234 | not quite as big | 03:50 |
| ali1234 | but has full linux support i think | 03:50 |
| LinuxCode | errm I now have a N810 | 03:50 |
| LinuxCode | fits in my back pocket | 03:51 |
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| ali1234 | universal has real reversed open drivers :) | 03:51 |
| LinuxCode | N900 is next on the shopping list | 03:51 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm really impressed by nokia | 03:51 |
| ali1234 | none of this binary blob stuff | 03:51 |
| jacquesdupontd | i think they're going to make the difference | 03:51 |
| eeanm | LinuxCode: once you get a n900 you realize how huge the n810 is :) | 03:51 |
| LinuxCode | eeanm, in terms of size ? | 03:51 |
| eeanm | yes | 03:51 |
| LinuxCode | hehe | 03:51 |
| jacquesdupontd | i'm so hoping that maemo won't be hidden by android | 03:51 |
| ali1234 | n900 is the same size as my old phone | 03:51 |
| jacquesdupontd | that would be so stupid | 03:51 |
| ali1234 | slightly thinner | 03:51 |
| LinuxCode | jacquesdupontd, maemo is dead | 03:52 |
| LinuxCode | well, pretty much | 03:52 |
| Andy80 | LinuxCode: Maemo is not dead | 03:52 |
| jacquesdupontd | the base is not | 03:52 |
| LinuxCode | I knew I would get flak | 03:52 |
| LinuxCode | lol | 03:52 |
| jacquesdupontd | that doesn't meen meego wont go on | 03:52 |
| jacquesdupontd | that just the continuing | 03:52 |
| Andy80 | LinuxCode: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo, that's all | 03:52 |
| jacquesdupontd | 's | 03:52 |
| LinuxCode | Andy80, so we will get a upgrade for N900 ? | 03:52 |
| jacquesdupontd | seems no | 03:53 |
| jacquesdupontd | from what i've heard | 03:53 |
| eeanm | meego doesn't change anything for harmattan | 03:53 |
| ShadowJK | Meego changes nothing for N900 | 03:53 |
| jacquesdupontd | they didn't planned to put meego on n900 | 03:53 |
| Andy80 | LinuxCode: you'll have the same applications of Nxxxx, isn't enough for you? | 03:53 |
| LinuxCode | haha | 03:53 |
| ShadowJK | (and Harmattan has never promised for N900) | 03:53 |
| jacquesdupontd | the ui's a lot better sorry | 03:53 |
| LinuxCode | Andy80, nope fine | 03:53 |
| jacquesdupontd | so yes it's changing things for n900 owners | 03:53 |
| eeanm | I bet the community gets harmattan running on the n900 :) | 03:53 |
| LinuxCode | but a system that can be flashed onto old devices would be preferred | 03:54 |
| eeanm | but anyways fremantle kicks ass, so I wouldn't worry about it. | 03:54 |
| jacquesdupontd | LinuxCode if everybody had the same way of thinking, at least that how i see the furtur | 03:54 |
| jacquesdupontd | not forgetting old device to have more new devices bought just knowing that they'll be as supported as the one we had before | 03:55 |
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| jacquesdupontd | as long i mean | 03:55 |
| jacquesdupontd | people are not that stupid | 03:55 |
| Andy80 | and... don't forget that N900 still has to get PR 1.2 upgrade... | 03:55 |
| jacquesdupontd | if they see you're fooling them by trying to tell them to already change of device, either they'll change of trademark either they'll continue on yours if they don't have the choice but will be waiting impatiently the time they'll change and say bye bye | 03:56 |
| jacquesdupontd | like i'm sure a lot of apple owners wants to see even better compagnies and are ready to change directly but for now they are feeling they don't have choices | 03:57 |
| Andy80 | jacquesdupontd: I bet they will like harmattan and its device/devices :) | 03:58 |
| jacquesdupontd | hehe | 03:58 |
| jacquesdupontd | that's a bet | 03:58 |
| jacquesdupontd | well i can't wait tomorow to be able to finish my device :) | 03:59 |
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| jacquesdupontd | i may gonna began the work now | 03:59 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Andy80, plus PR1.3, and probably a PR2, too. | 04:03 |
| Andy80 | GeneralAntilles: nice :) | 04:04 |
| jacquesdupontd | guys, i wanted to know if it would be possible to make usb panel kit devices with a sensitive touch ? | 04:04 |
| jacquesdupontd | btw if you guys have link of way to make a screen a touchscreen , like the wii remote trick and other stuff like that i'm interested in reading this | 04:08 |
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| ShadowJK | the chinese sell touchscrene overlays for eee pc's :P | 04:16 |
| jacquesdupontd | too small | 04:18 |
| jacquesdupontd | :) | 04:18 |
| jacquesdupontd | i bought a usb panek kit resistive for 15 inch screen | 04:19 |
| jacquesdupontd | gonna try it tomorow | 04:19 |
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| Terje1 | cd .. | 09:31 |
| Terje1 | Oops | 09:31 |
| Speedy2 | www.search2.net | 09:31 |
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| villemv | http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-February/000014.html | 09:49 |
| villemv | "The aim is to have only one official API based on Qt and Web Runtime." | 09:49 |
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| villemv | nice freudian slip there too ;-) "In order to be successfuk, MeeGo needs to make life easy both for app | 09:52 |
| villemv | developers and device vendors." | 09:52 |
| Stskeeps | k is very close to l ;) | 09:53 |
| jaem | Stskeeps, Freud used Dvorak | 09:53 |
| * villemv is on dvorak as well | 09:53 | |
| jaem | okay, I made that up | 09:53 |
| villemv | not on my n900 though | 09:53 |
| jaem | villemv, friends keep telling me I should, but I haven't taken the plunge... | 09:53 |
| villemv | jaem: you need a short holiday for that | 09:54 |
| villemv | I took the plunge on a winter holiday | 09:54 |
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| Claviceps | NEED PEOPLE FOR A (WHITEHAT) SEO DEVELOPMENT TEAM!! WWW.BINGSEOFORUM.COM + WWW.BARELYLEGAL.COM | 10:39 |
| Claviceps | #xbox720 on EFNET | 10:39 |
| Claviceps | #xbox720 on EFNET | 10:39 |
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| ali1234 | do any actual developers use meego-dev for actual development? or is it just for the "app developers" | 10:44 |
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| robsta | ali1234: a significant number of developers are reading it | 10:45 |
| ali1234 | related: when qgil says things like "We will be able to answer with precision this question once we have a first release out since both Harmattan and MeeGo are being fine tuned still." - where is this work taking place? | 10:45 |
| timeless_mbp | robsta: but why are they reading it? | 10:46 |
| ali1234 | the question is not "are they reading it?" but "are they using it to openly discuss the development of meego?" | 10:46 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: harmattan work is being done in nokia offices and contract offices :) | 10:46 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: 'no' :) | 10:46 |
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| * timeless_mbp is using irc to discuss meego | 10:46 | |
| robsta | timeless_mbp: i don't understand your question i'm afraid | 10:47 |
| timeless_mbp | discussing stuff on a list w/ 1000 people is stupid | 10:47 |
| ali1234 | it works for lkml | 10:47 |
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| timeless_mbp | robsta: if you are accidentally signed up for spam | 10:47 |
| ali1234 | imagine if linus & co did everything through private emails | 10:47 |
| timeless_mbp | you're reading the spam because someone signed you up for it | 10:47 |
| timeless_mbp | not because you really want to | 10:47 |
| robsta | developers are reading it to answer serious technical questions that come up, | 10:47 |
| Claviceps | WWW.WINDOWS.COM | 10:47 |
| Claviceps | dude I got an HP | 10:48 |
| robsta | timeless_mbp: this does obviously not include things like rpm vs deb | 10:48 |
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| Claviceps | dude I got a HewellPackard | 10:48 |
| Claviceps | www.bing.com | 10:48 |
| timeless_mbp | dude: you can't spell | 10:48 |
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| Claviceps | www.bing.com | 10:48 |
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| * timeless_mbp rotfl | 10:48 | |
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| *** Claviceps was kicked by Stskeeps (spammer) | 10:48 | |
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| * rwhitby wonders what the number of users threshold is for the spam-bots | 10:49 | |
| timeless_mbp | fwiw, a bot eventually killed claviceps | 10:49 |
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| lucent | bot on bot violence | 10:50 |
| lucent | tsk. tsk. | 10:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | lucent: well, it means fewer humans lose fewer limbs | 10:50 |
| rwhitby | but it ends with SkyNet | 10:51 |
| timeless_mbp | (or even use fewer limbs/digits) | 10:51 |
| timeless_mbp | rwhitby: yeah, but that's our children's generation's problem :) | 10:51 |
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| X-Fade | Morning | 10:51 |
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| robsta | ali1234, timeless_mbp: obviously you have to make yourself known with good work before people will listen, just as with any sane foss project | 10:55 |
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| ali1234 | robsta: once again, that is not the question i am asking | 10:55 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: from my side, i'm pretty i can confidently say 'no' | 10:55 |
| ali1234 | robsta: on "open" projects, developer discussions are done on public mailing lists | 10:55 |
| timeless_mbp | and i claim bollocks on the lkml counter argument | 10:56 |
| ali1234 | robsta: that does not mean they aren't moderated, but anyone is free to read them | 10:56 |
| timeless_mbp | lkml has only one subject (kernel) | 10:56 |
| timeless_mbp | and a much more focussed audience / membership / active contributors | 10:57 |
| ali1234 | timeless_mbp: ok then, compare ubuntu-devel | 10:57 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: better example | 10:57 |
| timeless_mbp | does it do something? does it work? | 10:57 |
| ali1234 | they discuss what will be done in the next release for the whole world to see | 10:57 |
| timeless_mbp | does that include api discussions? | 10:58 |
| ali1234 | it includes everything | 10:58 |
| timeless_mbp | and it works? | 10:58 |
| ali1234 | well, ubuntu seems pretty popular | 10:58 |
| * timeless_mbp asks incredulously | 10:58 | |
| ali1234 | they also post minutes from irc meetings | 10:58 |
| timeless_mbp | just because foo is popular doesn't mean that foo-bar works or is the reason that foo is popular | 10:58 |
| ali1234 | *everything* is public | 10:58 |
| timeless_mbp | firefox is popular, but not everything that is done for firefox works out properly | 10:59 |
| ali1234 | the question is not "does it work?" but "can you seriously call meego 'open' without making a lot more of the internal process public?" | 11:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | ali1234: ah | 11:01 |
| timeless_mbp | you're asserting there's a process at all | 11:01 |
| timeless_mbp | let alone an internal process | 11:01 |
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| timeless_mbp | meego is an announcement, of plans to do something | 11:01 |
| timeless_mbp | it will be open once enough pieces are in place | 11:01 |
| ali1234 | well, whenever anyone asks a serious question the answer is always "we're working on it" but i don't *see* anyone working on it | 11:01 |
| timeless_mbp | until then, it's just that | 11:01 |
| * timeless_mbp ponders | 11:02 | |
| timeless_mbp | do you remember no-name-yet? | 11:02 |
| ali1234 | no | 11:02 |
| timeless_mbp | look it up :) | 11:03 |
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| robsta | ali1234: how long did it take for redhat to come out with fedora and be really open? i really think you should be a bit more patient | 11:03 |
| ali1234 | was it more or less than 3 years? | 11:04 |
| robsta | ali1234: redhat founded 1993, fedora 2003 | 11:05 |
| ali1234 | i am not talking about openness of code, but openness of process | 11:06 |
| robsta | i know that is what i'm saying | 11:06 |
| ali1234 | apart from anything else, red hat code was open long before fedora | 11:06 |
| robsta | meego code is open now too | 11:06 |
| ali1234 | fedora is really just "get the community to bug test for us for free" | 11:06 |
| robsta | but governance and everything takes time to set up | 11:06 |
| ali1234 | and should be documented | 11:07 |
| timeless_mbp | to be fair, very few groups are able to to open source transitions quickly | 11:07 |
| timeless_mbp | netscape was relatively good w/ mozilla | 11:07 |
| timeless_mbp | and sun hasn't been too bad w/ solaris and was pretty good w/ netbeans | 11:07 |
| timeless_mbp | sun wasn't great w/ java or openoffice | 11:08 |
| timeless_mbp | symbian is definitely on the slow side | 11:08 |
| timeless_mbp | (and yes, i've dabbled in all of these) | 11:08 |
| dazo | ali1234: Fedora is where the innovation for RHEL happens ;-) | 11:08 |
| RST38h | Last time I met with RHEL "innovation" it took a third of my PhD thesis | 11:08 |
| RST38h | So, I hope you understand why I do not see RHEL innovation as a feature | 11:09 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: eh? | 11:09 |
| lucent | where'd the rumor that meego is slated to use RPM package management, what's that about exactly? | 11:10 |
| ali1234 | lucent: moblin uses rpm, meego will use rpm | 11:10 |
| dazo | RST38h: that was not what I said .... I said that the innovation happens in Fedora, and is then moved over to RHEL | 11:10 |
| lucent | Is moblin using RPM-package management and it trickles down to meego | 11:10 |
| lucent | oh okay | 11:11 |
| lucent | ali1234: no chance for deb then hm? | 11:11 |
| ali1234 | lucent: no | 11:11 |
| ali1234 | lucent: given the choice between moblin's version of rpm and maemo's broken version of deb, i pick rpm any day | 11:11 |
| timeless_mbp | rpm is also part of LSB :) | 11:12 |
| lucent | yeah I think people take it personally but I'm just interested in the lineage here | 11:12 |
| lucent | answers my question perfectly :) | 11:12 |
| timeless_mbp | lucent: it's in the FAQ | 11:12 |
| timeless_mbp | next time, please read it :) | 11:12 |
| * lucent /topic's | 11:12 | |
| RST38h | dazo: That was RH Enterprise Edition. With corporate support, which installed a cutting edge kernel that did not like NFS, document gone. | 11:13 |
| RST38h | dazo: I can only imagine how well Fedora works, if RHEL Enterprise can do something like that | 11:13 |
| timeless_mbp | actually there's something better in the wiki about it | 11:13 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: i installed F12 yesterday and package management was broken ootb | 11:13 |
| ali1234 | so, yeah, fedora sucks | 11:13 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: nice | 11:13 |
| timeless_mbp | otoh | 11:13 |
| timeless_mbp | i spent some time yesterday w/ a team who had managed to break ubuntu package installation terribly | 11:14 |
| timeless_mbp | /usr/share/doc was a file instead of a directory | 11:14 |
| timeless_mbp | there were a couple of other similar critters | 11:14 |
| timeless_mbp | very impressive | 11:14 |
| lucent | also, timeless_mbp the reference to moblin using rpm and it being superior to maemo's deb, that is not listed in the FAQ? | 11:14 |
| timeless_mbp | ubuntu was totally unhappy | 11:14 |
| ali1234 | anything can be broken | 11:14 |
| timeless_mbp | lucent: there's a second faq for that | 11:14 |
| RST38h | ali1234: Updating Python on Centos kill the packaging system dead. | 11:14 |
| ali1234 | it takes a special kind of retardation to ship it in a broken state | 11:14 |
| lucent | I missed the second faq then | 11:14 |
| lucent | timeless_mbp: would you enlighten me? | 11:15 |
| RST38h | ali1234: Apparently, the gus are so cutting edge that they forgot to keep a "safe" copy of the original Python with which packaging works | 11:15 |
| * timeless_mbp grumbles | 11:15 | |
| * timeless_mbp kicks meego search | 11:15 | |
| dazo | RST38h: I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences ... I mostly find RHEL (and even CentOS) a lot more stable .... but Fedora is a more fast moving target, where things might not always work as well ... but which RHEL version was that? Of course, nobody is perfect and errors can happen ... but with RHEL you should have possibility for good support and get it resolved reasonably quickly | 11:15 |
| timeless_mbp | robsta: ok how the **** does one search the meego wiki? | 11:15 |
| timeless_mbp | nice | 11:16 |
| timeless_mbp | http://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=Rpm&action=edit | 11:16 |
| timeless_mbp | trying to *search* for something gives me: | 11:16 |
| RST38h | dazo: I do not remember. Have not been sysadmining for money for years now | 11:16 |
| timeless_mbp | Permission error [pagediscussion] | 11:16 |
| timeless_mbp | You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reasons: | 11:16 |
| Corsac | nice | 11:17 |
| timeless_mbp | http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging | 11:17 |
| * timeless_mbp sighs | 11:17 | |
| RST38h | dazo: When I was a sysadmin, we had a FreeBSD box. And RedHat went into kernel panic any time gethostbyname() failed, if I remember correctly | 11:17 |
| lucent | thank you timeless_mbp | 11:17 |
| timeless_mbp | whichever stupid wiki meego is using is well... stupid | 11:17 |
| X-Fade | timeless_mbp: Standard mediawiki. | 11:17 |
| timeless_mbp | lucent: be warned: that document was written by a Frenchman | 11:17 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Autobuilder. Dput fails. | 11:18 |
| timeless_mbp | using french whitespace style | 11:18 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: SSH authentication again, it seems. | 11:18 |
| timeless_mbp | please feel free to correct the document | 11:18 |
| ali1234 | what is french whitespace style?? | 11:18 |
| timeless_mbp | (French includes random superfluous whitespace around punctuation) | 11:18 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: using drop? | 11:18 |
| lucent | timeless_mbp: If I wanted military victories... ;) | 11:18 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: no, standard | 11:18 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: use drop.maemo.org | 11:18 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: That changed a while a go. | 11:18 |
| timeless_mbp | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_spacing_at_the_end_of_sentences#Historical_overview | 11:19 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: for lack of a better reference | 11:19 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: acknowledged | 11:19 |
| ali1234 | cool, i never knew that | 11:19 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: it's basically hell | 11:19 |
| timeless_mbp | because it's not a standard whitespace | 11:19 |
| timeless_mbp | there's typically a non breaking whitespace on at least one side of each punctuation mark | 11:20 |
| timeless_mbp | especially quotation marks | 11:20 |
| Corsac | it's an unbreakable space | 11:20 |
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| * timeless_mbp grumbles about stupid french testers and stupid demands from stupid stupids | 11:20 | |
| Corsac | because you don't exactly want them on a separate line :) | 11:20 |
| timeless_mbp | Corsac: i'd rather not have them at all | 11:20 |
| Corsac | well, there shouldn't be any when using “” | 11:21 |
| timeless_mbp | no punctuation is better than punctuation that randomly breaks across lines because french linguists can't get it right | 11:21 |
| Corsac | but if using «» there should be :) | 11:21 |
| * timeless_mbp nods | 11:21 | |
| timeless_mbp | sadly the linguists in question used «» | 11:21 |
| Corsac | which is wrong in an english text indeed | 11:21 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, this was firefox-fr | 11:21 |
| * timeless_mbp has a huge changeset to fix that | 11:21 | |
| Corsac | which page was it? | 11:22 |
| timeless_mbp | anyway, would someone *please* fix the referenced wiki page? | 11:22 |
| Corsac | the Packaging one? | 11:22 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah | 11:22 |
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| timeless_mbp | fwiw, i don't actually hate the french | 11:22 |
| timeless_mbp | although i did vomit on my last visit to France, for which i do blame France :) | 11:23 |
| timeless_mbp | (but the health care wasn't bad) | 11:23 |
| ali1234 | meego.com takes openid right? | 11:23 |
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| timeless_mbp | in theory | 11:23 |
| ali1234 | well let's see if my launchpad works | 11:23 |
| ali1234 | indeed it does | 11:23 |
| ali1234 | but i still have to create an account? | 11:24 |
| ali1234 | actually the result is confusing. i can't tell if it worked or not | 11:24 |
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| ali1234 | way to go website developers :) | 11:24 |
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| lucent | way to go openid, never know what is logging in with what else | 11:24 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: three cheers! | 11:25 |
| ali1234 | i like openid | 11:25 |
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| lucent | that's not a simple task to express in user interface. | 11:25 |
| timeless_mbp | lucent: universal login? | 11:25 |
| Stskeeps | morning townxelliot | 11:25 |
| townxelliot | morning Stskeeps | 11:25 |
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| ali1234 | i think i know what happened | 11:25 |
| ali1234 | normally it would autogenerate an account based on by openin | 11:25 |
| ali1234 | but my openid contains -'s so it can't | 11:26 |
| ali1234 | dunno why it couldn't take my email address | 11:26 |
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| Stskeeps | morn andre__ | 11:27 |
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| andre__ | heja | 11:28 |
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| jaem | hi andre__ | 11:28 |
| jaem | and Stskeeps | 11:28 |
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| ali1234 | my meego rebuild is up to gdb btw | 11:35 |
| ali1234 | rebuilding all rpms in alphabetical order | 11:36 |
| ali1234 | so much less than half way | 11:36 |
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| timeless_mbp | ali1234: where did you get meego? | 11:39 |
| Stskeeps | rebuild for? | 11:40 |
| timeless_mbp | i have an mxr of moblin: http://ec2-72-44-51-255.compute-1.amazonaws.com/repo.moblin.org/ | 11:40 |
| ali1234 | sorry i meant moblin | 11:40 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: rebuild for "not atom cpus" | 11:40 |
| Stskeeps | ah, cool | 11:41 |
| ali1234 | i just hope i did it right, it's kind of hard to tell | 11:41 |
| ali1234 | specifically i hope the mock "arch" option is really what it passes to gcc, and not something hardcoded into the srpms | 11:41 |
| ali1234 | but i doubt they'd do anything like that :) | 11:42 |
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| Stskeeps | check gcc spec? | 11:45 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 11:47 |
| tekojo | Morning Jaffa | 11:49 |
| leinir | any idea where i might get a hold of the meego logo? | 11:51 |
| AstralStorm | noooo! no rpm please | 11:51 |
| AstralStorm | these have hardcoded package deps afaicr | 11:51 |
| AstralStorm | wrt versions | 11:51 |
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| timeless_mbp | leinir: why? | 11:53 |
| timeless_mbp | AstralStorm: you prefer non reproducible builds? | 11:53 |
| timeless_mbp | maemo has that | 11:53 |
| timeless_mbp | they're awesome | 11:53 |
| timeless_mbp | never the same binary twice | 11:53 |
| AstralStorm | ? | 11:54 |
| openstandards | AstralStorm, as long as a utopia is created.... i couldn't care less about the chosen package management | 11:54 |
| timeless_mbp | a binary built from .deb doesn't specify which versions of dependencies it used | 11:54 |
| AstralStorm | I mean you can't upgrade any single package | 11:54 |
| timeless_mbp | which means if you try to rebuild a .deb | 11:54 |
| timeless_mbp | you are unlikely to get the same result | 11:54 |
| AstralStorm | so? | 11:54 |
| leinir | timeless_mbp: so i can put the logo on a document i am creating, which relates to MeeGo as a development platform :) | 11:54 |
| AstralStorm | as long as it works, it's fine | 11:54 |
| timeless_mbp | leinir: you could steal the logo from meego.com | 11:55 |
| timeless_mbp | be[a]ware that the terms and conditions for using the logo are probably not well defined or friendly :) | 11:55 |
| * timeless_mbp is using it | 11:55 | |
| AstralStorm | the whole problem is when there are deps like foo-0.1 is compatible with 0.2 | 11:55 |
| timeless_mbp | AstralStorm: hrm | 11:55 |
| timeless_mbp | so you prefer when nokia releases a .deb for a translation of e.g. modest | 11:56 |
| AstralStorm | and then foo update is available and you can't use it with old bind | 11:56 |
| timeless_mbp | but the deb doesn't say "btw, i will crash your older modest binary" | 11:56 |
| AstralStorm | nah, that's splitting | 11:56 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, the 20 other .deb's nokia produced for 1.2 which do this? | 11:56 |
| ali1234 | the real problem is when some rpm has a dependency on foo-0.1-patchedbysomedude-sourcenotavailable | 11:56 |
| AstralStorm | it should have a >=0.666 dep | 11:56 |
| timeless_mbp | is this bundling? | 11:56 |
| leinir | timeless_mbp: that would work, except that somebody decided it would be a great idea to not use an image tag for it :P | 11:56 |
| AstralStorm | ali1234, :) | 11:56 |
| timeless_mbp | leinir: tools>page info | 11:56 |
| ali1234 | also, the problems with maemo and debs were caused by nokia not doing it right | 11:57 |
| jaem | ali1234, I've seen some scarier-looking version suffixes | 11:57 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: well | 11:57 |
| timeless_mbp | there's no way to do the rebuild bit 'right' | 11:57 |
| jaem | although some weren't actually as scary as they sounded | 11:57 |
| timeless_mbp | .deb binaries *never* encode enough information | 11:57 |
| timeless_mbp | the l10n stuff is because nokia doesn't have a proper l10n policy | 11:57 |
| timeless_mbp | let alone proper deb versioning rules | 11:57 |
| jaem | ali1234, some of Kubuntu's Qt packages were something like "4.5.3really4.5.2blahblahblah" or some such at one point | 11:57 |
| timeless_mbp | jaem: ubuntu had that too | 11:58 |
| timeless_mbp | those were awesome | 11:58 |
| Jaffa | FWIW, today's MWKN is a "MeeGo special" - http://www.mwkn.net/ | 11:58 |
| timeless_mbp | (not for Qt, for something else) | 11:58 |
| AstralStorm | timeless_mbp, why do you need binary rebuild reproducibility? | 11:58 |
| jaem | timeless_mbp, :) I did see one in the Ubuntu repos that was about twice as long as that | 11:58 |
| AstralStorm | if you need a rebuild, you likely don't want to reproduce anyway | 11:58 |
| jaem | and made me raise an eyebrow | 11:58 |
| AstralStorm | because something is broken | 11:58 |
| timeless_mbp | AstralStorm: well, to get binary symbols for instance | 11:58 |
| jaem | when they put qualifiers (in the language sense) in the middle of a version number... *shakes head* | 11:59 |
| RST38h | Heya AstralStorm | 11:59 |
| AstralStorm | ahh, some hard dep? | 11:59 |
| timeless_mbp | AstralStorm: or to be able to figure out why a code path is behaving strangely | 11:59 |
| AstralStorm | actually, use --as-needed | 11:59 |
| timeless_mbp | "did some stupid dependency #define XXX_UNSTABLE" ? | 11:59 |
| AstralStorm | :) | 11:59 |
| leinir | timeless_mbp: Aah right, thanks :) | 11:59 |
| AstralStorm | true, but rpm goes the other way wrong | 12:00 |
| timeless_mbp | AstralStorm: fine by me | 12:00 |
| timeless_mbp | better strict than sorry | 12:00 |
| timeless_mbp | i've been sorry | 12:00 |
| AstralStorm | where you always have to rebuild | 12:00 |
| RST38h | Astral: Got attracted by the Meego News? :) | 12:00 |
| AstralStorm | if a fly farts, for instance | 12:00 |
| ali1234 | AstralStorm: i think you are thinking of gentoo | 12:00 |
| AstralStorm | RST38h, more like by mer inactivity and switch to opengl | 12:00 |
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| AstralStorm | ali1234, nah, you usually don't have to rebuilds deps in gentoo | 12:01 |
| AstralStorm | *rebuild | 12:01 |
| RST38h | Astral: Ah =) | 12:01 |
| ali1234 | you did last time i used it | 12:01 |
| timeless_mbp | AstralStorm: i'm not saying .rpm or .deb are great | 12:01 |
| ali1234 | almost any upgrade also required a revdep-rbuild | 12:01 |
| timeless_mbp | however, i do know where the skeletons live in .deb | 12:01 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm pretty sure i've hit most of them (not listed here, but hit nonetheless) | 12:02 |
| * openstandards likes arch's package system.....but seriously rpm isn't so bad :) | 12:02 | |
| AstralStorm | ali1234, in how many packages? | 12:02 |
| Corsac | timeless_mbp: I'm sure buxy would be interested by skeletons :) | 12:02 |
| ali1234 | AstralStorm: any package that has deps | 12:02 |
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| AstralStorm | ali1234, you didn't use --as-needed then | 12:02 |
| timeless_mbp | Corsac: i'm around most of the time, people are free to poll me | 12:02 |
| AstralStorm | this should really be a required linker option | 12:02 |
| timeless_mbp | and some skeletons are recorded in my blog (albeit unpublished, you get to go digging through it yourself) | 12:03 |
| AstralStorm | or else you get "non-dynamic" linking | 12:03 |
| buxy | timeless_mbp: tell me/us | 12:03 |
| buxy | better yet, file bugs :) | 12:03 |
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| timeless_mbp | for the record. i've tried filing bugs against dpkg | 12:30 |
| timeless_mbp | the turnaround for a bug was 24 months. the question was "is this still happening" | 12:30 |
| jaem | ouch! | 12:30 |
| timeless_mbp | at 24 months, you should expect the reporter to tell you to take a flying leap | 12:30 |
| timeless_mbp | as for debbugs. roughly around then, i decided that i'd file bugs downstream and let someone else deal w/ it | 12:31 |
| timeless_mbp | it was a chance for me to retain some semblance of sanity | 12:31 |
| jaem | timeless_mbp, Sanity?! Bwuhaha... mm... sanity... yes... sanity good... ahahuh | 12:32 |
| timeless_mbp | (i've also filed bugs against dpkg which were fixed) | 12:32 |
| * jaem is insane | 12:32 | |
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| * w00t_ yawns | 12:38 | |
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| jaem | w00t_, darn - now you made me do it >:( | 12:39 |
| jaem | lol | 12:39 |
| w00t_ | jaem: :-) | 12:40 |
| * Basstard` breathes | 12:40 | |
| w00t_ | monday morning itis has struck me | 12:40 |
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| jaem | bwha? It's Monday? | 12:41 |
| jaem | oh right, that happened just about the time I should have gone to bed | 12:41 |
| jaem | lol | 12:41 |
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| w00t_ | *g* | 12:43 |
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| blino | timeless_mbp: you are a firefox dev, right? do you think that something like fennec can still be used on netbook-like devices? or is it re-focused on phones only? | 12:45 |
| AstralStorm | timeless_mbp, why limit yourself between bad and worse? | 12:45 |
| ali1234 | AstralStorm: because os x licensing costs too much | 12:46 |
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| AstralStorm | blino, right now fennec is unusable... can't search in page, follow anchors, download xpis... slow and memory grubbing too | 12:46 |
| AstralStorm | oh, and can't select text or have manual zoom | 12:46 |
| timeless_mbp | blino: i don't see any reason it couldn't be | 12:47 |
| timeless_mbp | if you look at the OLPC sugar browser or the moblin browser | 12:47 |
| timeless_mbp | they all basically look like fennec done wrong | 12:47 |
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| AstralStorm | ui is fine in fennec, yeah | 12:47 |
| * timeless_mbp thinks that even the eeepc browser would count in this area | 12:47 | |
| AstralStorm | but features, even basics... not | 12:47 |
| AstralStorm | :( | 12:47 |
| jaem | timeless_mbp, yeah, the OLPC browser is kind of... annoying | 12:47 |
| jaem | then again, it's also a pretty slow machine | 12:47 |
| blino | timeless_mbp: well, recently, most of the communication around fennec has been done for phone devices, exclusively | 12:47 |
| timeless_mbp | blino: remember that fennec was originally designed against the n800 | 12:47 |
| jaem | what's it based on? | 12:47 |
| timeless_mbp | which doesn't have a phone | 12:48 |
| jaem | I haven't poked at my OLPC XO much yet | 12:48 |
| timeless_mbp | jaem: it was gecko something | 12:48 |
| blino | timeless_mbp: for example Mark's conf at FOSDEM, totally phone-centric | 12:48 |
| jaem | ...and it's actually on loan | 12:48 |
| jaem | ah | 12:48 |
| timeless_mbp | i don't remember the something | 12:48 |
| timeless_mbp | probably 1.8 | 12:48 |
| jaem | is the UI in Python like most of the other apps? | 12:48 |
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| timeless_mbp | blino: sadly i was in paris, throwing up, for a mercurial sprint instead of @fosdem | 12:48 |
| timeless_mbp | i presume you mean mfinkle | 12:48 |
| blino | yep | 12:49 |
| timeless_mbp | because 'mark' in my community has horrible name collisions | 12:49 |
| timeless_mbp | not nearly as bad as 'mike', or oddly enough 'mike shaver' in this community | 12:49 |
| timeless_mbp | but | 12:49 |
| timeless_mbp | blino: if you're concerned about focus, i'd suggest you visit irc.mozilla.org #mobile | 12:49 |
| *** Votan|off is now known as Votan | 12:50 | |
| AstralStorm | well now, I thought things like anchors, search and select were showstopper bugs :) | 12:50 |
| blino | timeless_mbp: I'm there actually, tried to ask the question already, maybe I should give it another try :) | 12:50 |
| AstralStorm | or at least critical | 12:50 |
| timeless_mbp | blino: sorry, i'm mostly on the outskirts of #mobile | 12:51 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm trying to be upstream of it mostly | 12:51 |
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| AstralStorm | as would be ability to copy an url/link | 12:52 |
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| AstralStorm | i suppose they haven't figured out the ui for these | 12:52 |
| timeless_mbp | why? what would you do w/ it? | 12:52 |
| AstralStorm | with the url? | 12:52 |
| timeless_mbp | yes | 12:53 |
| timeless_mbp | all things considered, you probably need an action set | 12:53 |
| AstralStorm | or at least "download link" | 12:53 |
| ali1234 | put it on the moblin pasteboard :) | 12:53 |
| timeless_mbp | 'tweet link', 'download link', 'bookmark link' | 12:53 |
| blino | paste it to some IM discussion? mail ? | 12:53 |
| AstralStorm | yeah | 12:53 |
| AstralStorm | the trick is... how to do it | 12:53 |
| timeless_mbp | keep in mind that 'copy' is pretty much a useless and undiscoverable action for most end users | 12:53 |
| AstralStorm | long tap is so-so | 12:53 |
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| AstralStorm | and double-tap is hijacked by zoom | 12:54 |
| timeless_mbp | personally i want a smart toolbar | 12:54 |
| timeless_mbp | some sort of cross between pie menus/toolbar and a context menu | 12:54 |
| ali1234 | well personally i want generic tools where i don't have to rely on somebody to make a button for every little thing i want to do | 12:54 |
| AstralStorm | yeah, that'd do | 12:54 |
| ali1234 | "oh yeah, you can put the url on twitter, but not identica, because we didn't make a button for that!" | 12:55 |
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| ali1234 | "when are you going to make a button for it?" | 12:55 |
| ali1234 | "in the next device" | 12:55 |
| AstralStorm | actually, replacing double-tap zoom with long-tap zoom sounds like a good idea | 12:55 |
| AstralStorm | I manage to zoom in by accident | 12:55 |
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| ali1234 | "how can i get involved in the design of the next device?" | 12:56 |
| ali1234 | "you can't until we release it" | 12:56 |
| AstralStorm | ali1234, extensions... | 12:56 |
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| timeless_mbp | ali1234: so | 12:57 |
| timeless_mbp | the nice thing about firefox | 12:57 |
| timeless_mbp | is you don't have to play vendor games | 12:57 |
| timeless_mbp | hop over to irc://moznet/mobile | 12:57 |
| timeless_mbp | the maemo browser ui was always hobbled | 12:58 |
| *** w00t_ is now known as w00t | 12:58 | |
| timeless_mbp | nokia has always considered ui its market differentiation value or something | 12:58 |
| AstralStorm | the not-nice thing about firefox... is that it requires a lot of time to write anything really useful | 12:58 |
| timeless_mbp | AstralStorm: jetpack | 12:58 |
| AstralStorm | esp.with all that js flying | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | i think because all cell phone vendors have always thought that | 12:59 |
| ali1234 | extensions are actually pretty easy i think, at least for the desktop | 12:59 |
| ali1234 | if you know javascript and dom anyway | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | they aren't harder for mobile | 12:59 |
| AstralStorm | jetpack I haven't looked into | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | unless you don't have a device | 12:59 |
| ali1234 | well i never tried for mobile | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | in which case testing is problematic | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | the only new problem w/ mobile is picking reasonable ui hooks and interactions given space constraints | 12:59 |
| ali1234 | presumably the maemo browseer doesn't use chrome? | 12:59 |
| ali1234 | and so extensions can't add menus/buttons | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: historically it didn't | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | you can today write stuff in chrome | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | about:config in maemo5 is chrome | 13:00 |
| AstralStorm | with some speed tax | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | the addons manager is chrome | 13:00 |
| ali1234 | but what if i want to change the toolbars? | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | but yeah, the ability to hook the default browser window is limited in tablet-browser-ui | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: forget about tablet-browser-ui and just look into fennec | 13:01 |
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| ali1234 | moblin build is on glibc | 13:01 |
| AstralStorm | so? | 13:01 |
| ali1234 | might take a while | 13:02 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: how do you build it bt? | 13:02 |
| Stskeeps | btw | 13:02 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: using mock on ubuntu | 13:02 |
| sp3000 | pen and paper | 13:02 |
| AstralStorm | I'd prefer uclibc, hehe | 13:02 |
| AstralStorm | pity its locale support is lacking | 13:02 |
| timeless_mbp | pitty unix/linux locale support is a disaster | 13:05 |
| timeless_mbp | (osx is special there) | 13:05 |
| timeless_mbp | s/pitty/pity/ | 13:05 |
| ali1234 | my mock notes so far: http://pastebin.com/f5a7543dd | 13:05 |
| blino | timeless_mbp: isn't the old jetpack way almost dead? to be replaced by jetpack reboot, closer to normal extensions | 13:05 |
| timeless_mbp | blino: probably | 13:05 |
| * timeless_mbp shrugs | 13:06 | |
| timeless_mbp | it's still the right 'magic' answer | 13:06 |
| blino | yep, short-term, it's nice, but could disappear soon :/ | 13:06 |
| ali1234 | that's a work in progress anyway, probably has errors | 13:06 |
| timeless_mbp | you mean bugs? | 13:06 |
| timeless_mbp | wow. extra extra! software has bugs. | 13:07 |
| ali1234 | no i mean what i just pastebinned | 13:07 |
| ali1234 | dont be surprised if it doesn't work | 13:07 |
| timeless_mbp | is mock like sb2? | 13:08 |
| ali1234 | er, no? | 13:08 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: does it build things in dependancy order btw? | 13:08 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: no, it builds things one at a time | 13:08 |
| Stskeeps | k | 13:08 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: and it doesn't use what you just built to build the next thing either | 13:08 |
| Stskeeps | you should check for SSE3(?) things in the binaries afterwards then | 13:08 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: so when something fails, what do you do? | 13:08 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: yeah, this may be a problem | 13:09 |
| ali1234 | timeless_mbp: i report a bug? | 13:09 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: As someone corrected, SSSE3 | 13:09 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: It is not exactly the same as SSE3, and pretty much requires Merom or later ia32 CPU | 13:10 |
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| ali1234 | hmm... how can i automatically check a few hundred rpms for binaries that need SSSE3? | 13:13 |
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| jaem | ali1234, trained monkeys? | 13:14 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: but what about package dependencies? | 13:18 |
| timeless_mbp | i know of 3 dependencies in moblin | 13:18 |
| ali1234 | timeless_mbp: what about it? | 13:18 |
| timeless_mbp | you need cabextract | 13:18 |
| timeless_mbp | and dos2unix | 13:19 |
| zinho | i am really curious, there was a version of moblin scheduled for march, with the meego merge we will still have that version? | 13:19 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: well, if you're trying to build things | 13:19 |
| timeless_mbp | but aren't keeping things after you build them | 13:19 |
| timeless_mbp | won't all dependencies fail? | 13:19 |
| ali1234 | timeless_mbp: mock fetches all build deps from the originating repo automatically | 13:19 |
| timeless_mbp | zinho: wouldn't that be a question for #moblin? :) | 13:19 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: hrm | 13:20 |
| timeless_mbp | that's not going to do the right thing (tm) | 13:20 |
| ali1234 | timeless_mbp: this means all my rpms are compiled against the original SSSE3 using dependencies | 13:20 |
| timeless_mbp | if a build dep includes a .a which isn't compiled w/ the cpu arch you want | 13:20 |
| ali1234 | however, this should not matter unless something gets static linked or something odd like that | 13:20 |
| zinho | dont realy know, dont realy understand if the 2 projects, maemo and moblin will continue after the merge or not | 13:20 |
| timeless_mbp | then you're going to get that .a linked into your .so | 13:20 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: it happens often enough | 13:21 |
| timeless_mbp | i'd really suggest you use your own repository for things instead | 13:21 |
| ali1234 | then i have a chicken and egg problem | 13:22 |
| timeless_mbp | you're already building everything, i don't see why you wouldn't want to | 13:22 |
| timeless_mbp | not really | 13:22 |
| timeless_mbp | you have all the .srpm's right? | 13:22 |
| ali1234 | right | 13:22 |
| timeless_mbp | for each package, ask "can i satisfy build deps from *my* repository" | 13:22 |
| ali1234 | i can't build any of them without a chroot | 13:22 |
| timeless_mbp | if not, goto next: | 13:22 |
| ali1234 | since my repository contains zero things, the answer is always "no" | 13:22 |
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| * timeless_mbp ponders | 13:24 | |
| timeless_mbp | toss in gcc + glibc, try to build glibc, toss out glibc, toss in your glibc, try to build gcc, toss out gcc, toss in your gcc | 13:25 |
| ali1234 | i would have to build my own toolchain and bring up a chroot from scratch | 13:25 |
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| thiago | you need to build gcc twice to bootstrap | 13:25 |
| timeless_mbp | thiago: doesn't gcc do that by itself? | 13:25 |
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| thiago | no | 13:25 |
| thiago | you need to build gcc, then build glibc, then build gcc with C++ supprot | 13:26 |
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| thiago | gcc C++ support includes building a library that depends on libc | 13:26 |
| ali1234 | so basically, i can't use mock for this at all... | 13:26 |
| timeless_mbp | ah sorry, got the wrong order | 13:26 |
| timeless_mbp | ali1234: you really should use sb2 :) | 13:26 |
| * timeless_mbp is still unsure what mock does | 13:26 | |
| ali1234 | scratchbox can eat it | 13:26 |
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| ali1234 | i don't need an emulator | 13:26 |
| timeless_mbp | what's wrong w/ sb2? | 13:27 |
| thiago | to bootstrap a toolchain, you first build gcc and binutils, then libc, then gcc again | 13:27 |
| ali1234 | using a chroot is fine | 13:27 |
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| ali1234 | what *isn't* wrong with sb2? | 13:27 |
| AstralStorm | timeless_mbp, tell me how to use it :) | 13:27 |
| AstralStorm | in a page | 13:27 |
| thiago | and without installing a Debian-based distro | 13:27 |
| ali1234 | timeless_mbp: mock fetches rpms, builds a chroot, and then runs rpmbuild inside it | 13:28 |
| * thiago knows people who are running Linux inside Linux in the office just because of SB | 13:28 | |
| timeless_mbp | http://rotateright.com/forum/index.php?topic=42.0 | 13:29 |
| timeless_mbp | thiago: i use vbox instead :) | 13:29 |
| * timeless_mbp avoids sbox | 13:30 | |
| thiago | I prefer a regular cross-compilation | 13:31 |
| ali1234 | thing is, i don't actually need to recompile gcc | 13:32 |
| ali1234 | because it can already produce vanilla i386 bins if i ask it to | 13:32 |
| ali1234 | i am not using a different arch | 13:32 |
| ali1234 | i might need to recompile the support libraries | 13:32 |
| ali1234 | but isn't that what i am doing? | 13:33 |
| ali1234 | eg if i take the gcc rpm i just compiled and tell mock to use it for the chroot... | 13:33 |
| timeless_mbp | the thing is you aren't using the other rpm's you've built | 13:33 |
| timeless_mbp | at least, you said you weren't | 13:33 |
| ali1234 | or rather, the gcc and glibc i just compiled, then use that to rebuild gcc | 13:33 |
| ali1234 | i'm not *yet* | 13:34 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah, that should work | 13:34 |
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| ali1234 | from there, build everything in dep order | 13:34 |
| ali1234 | why isn't there a tool to do this for me? | 13:34 |
| Stskeeps | OBS? | 13:37 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:37 |
| timeless_mbp | heh | 13:37 |
| timeless_mbp | i think obs is really the answer | 13:38 |
| ali1234 | how would obs help me? | 13:38 |
| Stskeeps | you would be able to bootstrap your own gcc version at first, then ask OBS to build all your packages against that | 13:38 |
| ali1234 | "To make real use of your server, you need base distros to build against." | 13:40 |
| Stskeeps | similar way they bootstrap MeeGo for ARM | 13:40 |
| Stskeeps | right, and that'd be the original meego | 13:40 |
| Stskeeps | then you make a project that builds against meego, drop in your own gcc | 13:40 |
| Stskeeps | when that is built, drop in all your packages | 13:41 |
| Stskeeps | the result is then same project build against your gcc | 13:41 |
| ali1234 | and it builds in dependency order? | 13:41 |
| Stskeeps | right | 13:41 |
| ali1234 | that seems to be the only advantage | 13:41 |
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| ali1234 | actually, the ability to run lots of workers is another | 13:42 |
| Stskeeps | that too | 13:43 |
| ali1234 | looks rather complex to set up though | 13:43 |
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| ali1234 | so how am i supposed to install OBS? i don't have a big enough usb drive for it, and in any case don't want to dedicate my computer to compiling for 3 days | 13:52 |
| ali1234 | the installation guide is talking about making LVMs | 13:53 |
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| ali1234 | ah, i see mer has a guide, nice | 13:55 |
| ali1234 | i need a novell.com username/password to use obs? | 13:58 |
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| ali1234 | or this guide is only for setting up the tools to access novell's obs instance? | 13:59 |
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| Stskeeps | either instance works | 14:05 |
| ali1234 | what do you mean "either instance works" | 14:06 |
| ali1234 | i want to run my own local instance | 14:06 |
| Stskeeps | as in you can indicate in .oscrc what your default target is :) | 14:07 |
| ali1234 | installing OBS from source looks harder than just bootstrapping by hand | 14:07 |
| ali1234 | and no packages for ubuntu | 14:07 |
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| CosmoHill | windows keyboard + mac = little confusing | 14:08 |
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| ali1234 | what is the deal with livecds that don't work? | 15:35 |
| ali1234 | the OBS live CD tells me to use the web interface, but the web interface just returns a 404 error | 15:35 |
| ali1234 | nice one | 15:35 |
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| niqt | hi | 15:47 |
| niqt | i have builded livecd image | 15:48 |
| niqt | but a bott i have: cerate symlink /dev/root/ and them exit to shell to continue | 15:48 |
| niqt | is normally? | 15:48 |
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| * CosmoHill stabs his assignment | 16:06 | |
| ali1234 | how do i display the build deps on a srpm? | 16:06 |
| Stskeeps | at least you don't have to practice polish numbers | 16:06 |
| AstralStorm | ? there's no such thing | 16:07 |
| bva | Is the meego community irc meeting resheduled? I thought it was at 17UTC? | 16:07 |
| CosmoHill | meeting? | 16:08 |
| bva | Events says its 20:00 UTC now | 16:08 |
| bva | http://meego.com/community/events | 16:08 |
| CosmoHill | ali1234: i think you have to use the package manager to tell you | 16:08 |
| CosmoHill | not rpm itself | 16:08 |
| ali1234 | fine, so how do i do that? | 16:08 |
| Stskeeps | bva: it's 15:00 utc+2 atm, so i highly doubt it is | 16:08 |
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| CosmoHill | no idea myself | 16:08 |
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| * bva is confused now | 16:09 | |
| Stskeeps | bva: and isn't it on wednesday ? :P | 16:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yes | 16:10 |
| bva | 24th of februari | 16:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | As far as I remember 20:00 UTC was the first seriously proposed time. | 16:10 |
| bva | 20 UTC is better for me :) tahn I dont have to rush home after work | 16:10 |
| bva | no traffic fines | 16:11 |
| bva | :p | 16:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Home for an IRC meeting? | 16:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | You're clearly not from the Maemo Community. :P | 16:11 |
| bva | Yeah they are not so happy about me chatting at work | 16:12 |
| bva | I'm not indeed | 16:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | There's your problem. | 16:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Might I recommend an N900. ;) | 16:12 |
| bva | You want to pay it for me? :D | 16:12 |
| bva | TBH I'm verry new to this community happenings and stuff. Altough interested and following meego from day 1 (that I heard of it :p) | 16:14 |
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| w00t | GeneralAntilles: to be fair, I want to stab things after typing on my n900 for too long | 16:14 |
| w00t | it's workable, just too slow considering my usual typing speed | 16:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, yeah, I've developed a mindset for it over the years. | 16:14 |
| w00t | I demand a neural interface with the n1000. | 16:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, however I never felt as frustrated with the 770 and the N800 as I get with the N900. | 16:15 |
| * w00t nods | 16:15 | |
| leinir | w00t: hook up a bluetooth keyboard ;) | 16:15 |
| w00t | the keyboard is quite small. I do sort of miss my XDA Exec keyboard in that sense. ;) | 16:15 |
| Arnie-75 | hello there! I just tried the MeeGo image posted here: http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=373 . Is it a known problem that the power button of my Dell Mini 9 does not respond? I can only shutdown via console. | 16:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's difficult to use sub-standard inputs when a Dvorak Model M is your primary. ;) | 16:15 |
| leinir | ...and hook the thing up to your flatpanel... ;) | 16:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | leinir, the Stowaway is too small and the Apple one has terrible key action. | 16:16 |
| w00t | (http://pakawat.212cafe.com/user_blog/pakawat/picture/1170691818.jpg if you don't know what an Exec looks like!) | 16:16 |
| Dvoid | i find the onscreen keyboard more relaxing to type on, bigger keys i think is the ...key | 16:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm amazed at how the whole market manages to make keyboard worse every generation. | 16:16 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Dvoid, sadly Nokia decided to fscking break it for PR1.1. | 16:16 |
| leinir | w00t: Oooh that one! Damn, that thing makes you look awesomely idiotic when making calls ;) | 16:16 |
| w00t | leinir: in what way? | 16:17 |
| Dvoid | GeneralAntilles, they dod? | 16:17 |
| leinir | w00t: You're holding a device up to your face the size of a small netbook ;) | 16:17 |
| w00t | haha, nah | 16:17 |
| Dvoid | i really hope they fix onscreenkeyboard support in portraitmode for the next update | 16:17 |
| leinir | It's like that phone guy from The Fast Show ;) | 16:17 |
| w00t | they aren't small I suppose but it's not like a brick size | 16:17 |
| bva | Didn't knew there was a Unofficial build of meego? | 16:17 |
| w00t | it still always fit into my hand fine, so that was good enough | 16:17 |
| leinir | sorry, THTV, not Fast Show :) | 16:18 |
| leinir | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYLMk8xplqw | 16:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Dvoid, yeah, they dropped the gestures. | 16:20 |
| niqt | after 1 week i yet cannot to install meego... ;( | 16:21 |
| niqt | i want scretchbox | 16:21 |
| Stskeeps | famous last words | 16:21 |
| Dvoid | GeneralAntilles, oh, never used. what did you use them fore? | 16:21 |
| Dvoid | *for | 16:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Dvoid, after tapping you could swipe to shift, delete, and newline. | 16:22 |
| mukiex_ | Is there any sort of release period planned for pre-alpha 0.1 on MeeGo? I might, right now the initial release date is "Before April, for reals" | 16:23 |
| Dvoid | mkay, why did they remove that :S | 16:23 |
| Dvoid | ...maybe noone used it | 16:23 |
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| GAN900 | Lots of people used it | 16:23 |
| GAN900 | They removed it to make it more iPhone-esque | 16:24 |
| CosmoHill | :o | 16:24 |
| CosmoHill | i'd rather make my product better than the iphone than copy it | 16:24 |
| GAN900 | Hrm, think I'm still faster on the N800 keyboard than the N900. | 16:25 |
| CosmoHill | if you're going to buy something that copies the iphone you might as well get the real things | 16:25 |
| thiago | the N800 on-screen keyboard, you mean? | 16:25 |
| thiago | the N800 didn't have a physical keyboard | 16:25 |
| koivula | CosmoHill, are you indicating that iPhone is indeed a better product? | 16:26 |
| CosmoHill | it's shiny and comes with a free fanboy | 16:26 |
| koivula | Steve <3 | 16:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago, thus why I didn't feel the need to specify. :) | 16:27 |
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| thiago | GeneralAntilles: good point :-) | 16:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Man I miss the kickstand | 16:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | Fun to play with and useful. | 16:28 |
| range | Yes. | 16:28 |
| thiago | yeah, same here | 16:28 |
| range | That's what I miss most about the n800 | 16:28 |
| * CosmoHill hates his assignment | 16:28 | |
| * thiago looks at the N800 sitting on his desk | 16:29 | |
| thiago | yeah, good times | 16:29 |
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| CosmoHill | i wonder how many potential customers come onto the website and go "omfg wtf" and leave | 16:29 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I dunno why people always hate on the N800's looks. | 16:29 |
| CosmoHill | link me | 16:29 |
| CosmoHill | no wait, I'll go to wikipedia | 16:29 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Be nice if Nokia rehashed the N800 with an OMAP3 | 16:31 |
| CosmoHill | i've not heard the term "internet tablet" | 16:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill, it's closer to a Nokia trademark than a generic industry term. | 16:31 |
| CosmoHill | i thought it was a smartphone | 16:32 |
| Corsac | there's no phone in n800 | 16:32 |
| Corsac | so it's just smart | 16:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Um, "MID" is the closest "generic" term. | 16:32 |
| CosmoHill | hehe | 16:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Although originally a "MID" was a 4-5" toucscreen device with an Atom processor. . . . | 16:32 |
| RST38h | MID is defined by Intel | 16:33 |
| CosmoHill | the n900 is a smart phone right? | 16:33 |
| RST38h | same as UMPC is defined by Microsoft | 16:33 |
| RST38h | General: The word you are looking for is probably "comlog" =) | 16:33 |
| leinir | CosmoHill: No, they use a different term in the document they released... | 16:33 |
| RST38h | General: A device for communicating and logging your life | 16:33 |
| CosmoHill | logging? :/ | 16:34 |
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| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, MID's been genericized, though. | 16:35 |
| RST38h | General: Intel staunchily insists that MID is bla bla bla | 16:37 |
| mukiex_ | With the MeeGo project, is Nokia opening up any of the Maemo code? user-space, I mean, not drivers. | 16:37 |
| mukiex_ | err, any *more* I mean | 16:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, do they? | 16:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Interesting | 16:37 |
| RST38h | So, especially given that it is just an abbreviation, I would not go there | 16:37 |
| RST38h | MID also means many other things, so it is bad to google for :) | 16:38 |
| Stskeeps | mukiex_: noone knows yet | 16:38 |
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| Stskeeps | but they will have to open most of platform i think | 16:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, I'd note that wikipedia doesn't really agree, but as I had a hand in the formation of the article. . . . *eg* | 16:38 |
| Stskeeps | like, no closed apis in platform base | 16:39 |
| CosmoHill | the N900 looks nice | 16:39 |
| RST38h | general: I just checked the article by myself, and it seems to be awfully heavy on Intel specific stuff | 16:39 |
| leinir | CosmoHill: Yes, the problem is the word "nice" though ;) | 16:39 |
| CosmoHill | however it's more than my car..≥ | 16:40 |
| leinir | "nice" is the sort of word you use when you want to say something positive, but can't think of something really good ;) | 16:40 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: got a question | 16:40 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: I cannot seem to find mce package in fremantle autobuilder. What is the story? | 16:40 |
| leinir | i mean, as for innards, i'm a big, big fan- but it does look only "nice" :) It doesn't really have that spark of awesome that you need to really hit it home :) | 16:41 |
| Stskeeps | should be there, but look at why the closed packages wiki page | 16:41 |
| Stskeeps | its closed source | 16:41 |
| leinir | thiago is saying that the n900+1 will have that, though, so i'm confident that they'll pull that one off nicely :) | 16:41 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: really just need the headers and they do not seem to be there | 16:41 |
| thiago | what am I saying? | 16:42 |
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| Stskeeps | RST38h: mce-dev | 16:42 |
| Stskeeps | they are there, for sure | 16:42 |
| Stskeeps | oss | 16:42 |
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| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill, what in the world are you driving? | 16:43 |
| CosmoHill | if i where to buy a device for meego, how easy is it to flash and how easy to recover if it was bricked | 16:43 |
| CosmoHill | GeneralAntilles: 1995 Nissan Almera | 16:43 |
| CosmoHill | it's insured for £500 and the N900 is about £480 ish | 16:43 |
| CosmoHill | wow, they still sell nokia 3310s | 16:44 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: thanks =) | 16:46 |
| Stskeeps | np | 16:47 |
| megabast | someone has a link for download meego image? | 16:48 |
| RST38h | Ok, this does not help | 16:48 |
| RST38h | Autobuilder does not seem to have it installed =( | 16:48 |
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| CosmoHill | megabast: what download image? :p | 16:48 |
| megabast | a meego image to try it on my computer | 16:49 |
| megabast | moblin 2.2 | 16:50 |
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| megabast | it seems to be an image at this link, but it doesn t work http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=371 | 16:50 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: it is in SDK, build-dep on it? | 16:50 |
| megabast | CosmoHill: USB image | 16:51 |
| RST38h | hmm ok | 16:51 |
| CosmoHill | as far as i know there are no offical images yet | 16:51 |
| RST38h | not sure it wil help =( | 16:51 |
| Stskeeps | i'm sure | 16:51 |
| megabast | that's right | 16:53 |
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| CosmoHill | meego is hosted in the US right? | 16:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Seems likely | 16:59 |
| CosmoHill | the US has this thing about allowed kids under 13 on forums | 17:00 |
| ali1234 | s does the UK | 17:01 |
| CosmoHill | it does? | 17:01 |
| ali1234 | yes, the UK has all the same stupid laws as the US | 17:01 |
| CosmoHill | I didn't know that | 17:03 |
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| leinir | And a few more in addition | 17:04 |
| CosmoHill | can i have a link? | 17:04 |
| leinir | (for example that one with priests being allowed to shoot Welsh people if spotted on holy ground in the UK ;) ) | 17:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill, the US doesn't have a monopoly on screwing over its citizens. ;) | 17:05 |
| CosmoHill | it's not where some scare, missinformed parents have kicked up a fuss and a law has been made | 17:06 |
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| jeremiah | So many peeps in this channel! | 17:08 |
| CosmoHill | multiple personalities for the win | 17:09 |
| jeremiah | heh | 17:09 |
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| CosmoHill | well I've not found anything about uk laws | 17:10 |
| CosmoHill | but I;ve found a site for parents about kids on the internet | 17:10 |
| *** Votan|off is now known as Votan | 17:11 | |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: websites are not allowed to store any details about minors in the UK without parental consent | 17:11 |
| ali1234 | that applies to having an account on a forum | 17:12 |
| ali1234 | because getting parental consent is near impossible, they just ban minors entirely | 17:12 |
| CosmoHill | minors being under 12 | 17:12 |
| CosmoHill | *13 | 17:12 |
| ali1234 | dunno | 17:12 |
| ali1234 | i am not a lawyer | 17:13 |
| bva | thats why you have to check that radio button when you register on forums | 17:13 |
| ali1234 | yeah, the whole thing is damn near impossible to enforce anyway | 17:13 |
| ali1234 | which is why it is so stupid | 17:13 |
| Votan | ah well ... gotta love Samsung! | 17:14 |
| Votan | my NC10 broke down, as it still had warratny, it got send in for repair | 17:14 |
| Votan | now I got it back, guess what. moblin is gone, but they installed win XP again ... | 17:14 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Votan, Linux is a virus. | 17:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | They're just trying to help you out. ;) | 17:15 |
| CosmoHill | i once sent my powerbook away and they repalced the hard drive without even a phone call | 17:15 |
| CosmoHill | Welcome to OS X, please enter you details O.O | 17:15 |
| bva | Your lucky they didnt even tell you installing moblin was the couse of the proble | 17:15 |
| Votan | dito, now call, no eMail, nothing. The letter that was in the box didnt even mention what was wrong with the netbook in the first place ... well it works again, but thx for deleting my entire stuf -.- | 17:16 |
| bva | and just returned it as sended | 17:16 |
| Votan | the thing was dead, ... nothing happened when u pushed the power button. so I guess the harddrive was not the issue, still funny they killed it :/ | 17:16 |
| * arjan wonders if someone from the maemo tracker team is here | 17:17 | |
| * CosmoHill wonders off to watch tv | 17:17 | |
| X-Fade | arjan: pvanhoof should know. | 17:17 |
| Votan | anyways, does someone have a MeeGo trunk .img/.iso somwehre hosted ? Otherwise i'd need to install moblin 2.1 again and hope u can upgrade to meego 1.0 later on | 17:17 |
| pvanhoof | arjan, im here | 17:18 |
| pvanhoof | arjan, juergbi is also here | 17:19 |
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| pvanhoof | arjan, we don't read this channel very often, so use our nicknames if you have a question. Or just join #tracker on gimpnet | 17:20 |
| arjan | pvanhoof: are you here still in about 30 minutes? | 17:21 |
| * arjan needs to drive to the office first | 17:21 | |
| bva | damn updating a wndws computer in afrika trough rdp takes like a full day! | 17:21 |
| pvanhoof | arjan, yes | 17:21 |
| pvanhoof | arjan, but for tracker related questions you should probably joint the tracker channel on gimpnet | 17:22 |
| pvanhoof | -t :) | 17:22 |
| Votan | I suppose no answer means publicly available MeeGo built for netbooks ? :> | 17:23 |
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| arjan_afk | will be back in a bit | 17:23 |
| megabast | Votan: for instance there is no meego img available | 17:28 |
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| Votan | yeah well i thought maybe someone made one out of the trunk stuff | 17:29 |
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| megabast | http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=371 but it doesn't work for me | 17:41 |
| Votan | mh, gonna give it a shot as the hdd is wiped now anyways | 17:42 |
| megabast | good luck Votan | 17:43 |
| jeremiah | If you want to test an image you can try using Moblin 2.1 http://moblin.org/downloads | 17:43 |
| jeremiah | I don't know how much MeeGo is in there, but there should be some. | 17:43 |
| Votan | jeremiah i've been using moblin for months now. Problem is I dunno how easy u can upgrad moblin 2.1 to MeeGo 1.0 once an official img is available | 17:44 |
| jeremiah | Votan: I suspect the upgrade path from Moblin -> MeeGo won't be too painful | 17:44 |
| Votan | and as Samsung kindly killed my HDD upon repairing my netbook, I figured why not start with some early MeeGo build instead of the old moblin 2.1 img | 17:44 |
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| megabast | I wonder how an interface could be useful on a netbook and on a mobile phone, | 17:44 |
| kebax | the are different ux | 17:45 |
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| Votan | megabast anyways, seems the images are gone :> so.... guess it is the old moblin 2.1 then | 17:45 |
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| jeremiah | Votan: I think that is your best bet for right now. | 17:46 |
| megabast | kebax: ok | 17:46 |
| jeremiah | megabast: I don't think MeeGo is really one single interface, it most likely will support two window managers, at least in the short term | 17:47 |
| kebax | http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture | 17:47 |
| jeremiah | MeeGo is smaller than a distribution, but bigger than a Window Manager | 17:47 |
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| RST38h | jeremiah: ? | 17:48 |
| kebax | ux is on top | 17:48 |
| megabast | ok thx for answers | 17:48 |
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| * kebax wonders what are the other ux | 17:49 | |
| GeneralAntilles | kebax, probably worth waiting for the non-PR-people architecture. | 17:50 |
| kebax | okay | 17:50 |
| jeremiah | I would suspect that the IVI is on UX | 17:50 |
| jeremiah | Or rather, IVI is one UX | 17:50 |
| jeremiah | I think Visteon presented an IVI demo at CES, I think it is on YouTube | 17:51 |
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| jeremiah | http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=SE&feature=youtube_gdata&v=2y6Y-bBw54M | 17:52 |
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| kebax | so when/where this non-PR-people architecture will be? | 17:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | jeremiah, man that looks bad. | 17:54 |
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| eeanm | is there a moblin netbook that I can go buy? | 17:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Dell, MSI, Samsung apparently. | 17:57 |
| eeanm | link or it didn't happen :) | 17:57 |
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| eeanm | like I found this http://www.moblinzone.com/blog/861/10/37/MSI_Ships_First_Netbook_with_SUSE_Moblin | 17:58 |
| eeanm | and it says the MSI U135 will have SUSE Moblin | 17:58 |
| eeanm | but then I google for it... they all have windows 7 starter | 17:58 |
| RST38h | You know you can run Windows on all these netbooks... | 17:58 |
| RST38h | Not sure why you would want to run Moblin on them | 17:58 |
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| eeanm | my mom wants it, she doesn't want to deal with the drama of maintaining windows | 17:59 |
| eeanm | also, have you seen windows 7 starter? :D | 17:59 |
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| RST38h | Windows needs maintenance? | 18:00 |
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| RST38h | I thought Linux needed regular maintenance... | 18:00 |
| ali1234 | only maemo | 18:00 |
| eeanm | I'm looking for some info, not trolls :S | 18:00 |
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| RST38h | Ok, info: you can install Linux on pretty much every netbook out there | 18:01 |
| eeanm | yea I can, my mom can't. | 18:01 |
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| RST38h | But do keep in mind that once you install it for your mom, you will be maintaining it for your mom. | 18:01 |
| ali1234 | i have yet to see anyone link to an actual purchasable device that has moblin, but it isn't particularly hard to install it | 18:02 |
| kebax | dell has one, I guess | 18:02 |
| eeanm | everyone guesses | 18:02 |
| eeanm | :) | 18:03 |
| ali1234 | everyone say "dell dell dell" but they don't provide a link to where i can order it | 18:03 |
| Myrtti | http://dell.com/ubuntu | 18:03 |
| ali1234 | ubuntu moblin remix != moblin | 18:03 |
| kebax | thats true | 18:04 |
| Votan | well I can at least tell u that everything works on a Samsung NC10 | 18:04 |
| ali1234 | however, that is the closest i've seen so far | 18:04 |
| Votan | but u'd still have to get rid of xp and isntall moblin urself | 18:04 |
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| sivang | hey all | 18:12 |
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| sivang | so my msgs to maemo-devel are rejected, how to fix that? | 18:12 |
| sivang | is the guy about the twitter client here? | 18:12 |
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| VDVsx | sivang, subscribe the list ? | 18:14 |
| megabast | change your adress mail | 18:14 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: moo | 18:15 |
| VDVsx | RST38h, hey | 18:15 |
| blino | ali1234: looks like the Dell website advertize Moblin as well, but I don't find a way to actually buy it | 18:15 |
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| sivang | VDVsx: done, I just hit the reply button and it sent it to maemo-devel so it bounced off apparently. | 18:36 |
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| CosmoHill | http://yuki.idleentity.net/ie4/index.php?p=blog&a=42 | 18:42 |
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| AkkiMoto | yo | 18:45 |
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| CosmoHill | hi | 18:53 |
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| AkkiMoto_ | hello | 18:57 |
| AkkiMoto_ | hallo | 18:57 |
| AkkiMoto_ | moin | 18:57 |
| AkkiMoto_ | grüezi | 18:57 |
| AkkiMoto_ | servus | 18:58 |
| AkkiMoto_ | hm. nobody home | 18:58 |
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| VLJ | err | 18:59 |
| VLJ | i'm there | 18:59 |
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| VLJ | did someone manage to build moblin out of source ? | 18:59 |
| CosmoHill | hello | 18:59 |
| CosmoHill | I did say hi, must have said it in the wrong window | 19:00 |
| Votan | moblin or meego ? | 19:00 |
| VLJ | moblin | 19:00 |
| Votan | i did, but that was pre 2.0, so quite a few months back | 19:00 |
| VLJ | i'd like to build against the trunk | 19:00 |
| VLJ | but i don't know how to "start" | 19:00 |
| VLJ | I mean, what to build, how to put everything together... | 19:01 |
| VLJ | there is no tutorial | 19:02 |
| Votan | sec, trying to find the tutorial i used back then. was pretty general, but got me thru :) | 19:03 |
| VLJ | thx | 19:03 |
| ali1234 | VLJ: i am doing it now | 19:04 |
| kebax | meego tutoial? | 19:04 |
| VLJ | there is no meego tutorial, isn't it ? | 19:04 |
| Votan | btw, the trunk of moblin, is it still updated, like in the current 2.2 moblin aka MeeGo files ? I thought they trunk off moblin is dicontinued as they moved to meego | 19:04 |
| VLJ | I have no idea | 19:05 |
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| VLJ | but it's more up to date than the moblin 2.1 live image | 19:05 |
| VLJ | (clutter doesnt work by me) | 19:05 |
| ali1234 | VLJ: but i am using the srpms from 2.1 | 19:06 |
| ali1234 | kebax: that "meego" tutorial is just using the moblin image creator to make an image out of some random binary rpms | 19:06 |
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| damien_l | Votan: yes, we are still updating our Trunk (moblin 2.2 aka Meego 1.0 (for Netbook)) | 19:06 |
| S1m0n3 | hi all | 19:06 |
| S1m0n3 | anyone know if with meego the n900 support multi touch? | 19:07 |
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| ali1234 | VLJ: are you using OBS to compile moblin/meego? | 19:07 |
| VLJ | no | 19:07 |
| S1m0n3 | the n900 hardware isn't capable? | 19:07 |
| ali1234 | aw | 19:07 |
| VLJ | I tried the ymp one click install | 19:07 |
| VLJ | it didnot work | 19:07 |
| VLJ | (missing dependencies...) | 19:07 |
| ali1234 | ymp? | 19:07 |
| VLJ | but it was no compilation at all | 19:07 |
| VLJ | the format from opensuse to install package and dependencies at once | 19:08 |
| ali1234 | oh, i don't use opensuse | 19:08 |
| ali1234 | i'm trying to figure out how to set up a OBS instance | 19:08 |
| ali1234 | but it seems to be almost impossible to do so | 19:08 |
| ali1234 | even the livecds do not work | 19:08 |
| VLJ | OBS=Opensuse Build Service ? | 19:09 |
| Votan | damien_l that's great! then I need to get it working aswell, I wanna try MeeGo as it uses chrome instead of that mozilla thing :) | 19:09 |
| ali1234 | yes | 19:09 |
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| VLJ | I don't know how well non opensuse platform are supported | 19:09 |
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| Votan | so u gus are trying to use http://en.opensuse.org/Moblin/Build_Service to build atm ? | 19:10 |
| ali1234 | they have a livecd which is supposed to be a server and worker but it doesn't work. at all. | 19:10 |
| VLJ | no I don't | 19:10 |
| Votan | ali1234 are u trying to use that one ? | 19:10 |
| ali1234 | Votan: no, that is for moblin on top of suse | 19:10 |
| ali1234 | Votan: see there's two "moblins" | 19:10 |
| VLJ | err if you just want a "worker" you should use osc | 19:10 |
| ali1234 | VLJ: i want the full thing | 19:10 |
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| ali1234 | VLJ: i want everything to run on my local machine | 19:11 |
| ali1234 | VLJ: i want to not have to make a login on novell.com | 19:11 |
| Votan | aaah I see, that's the GUI running on top of suse | 19:11 |
| Votan | mh | 19:11 |
| VLJ | I don't know if it's possible to run OBS without any novell login | 19:11 |
| ali1234 | Votan: yeah, exactly. and also those instructions are only good for building it on the opensuse servers | 19:11 |
| ali1234 | VLJ: it is, supposedly with the livecd | 19:11 |
| Votan | ali1234 yeah, I tried that a few weeks back and didnt get anywhere with it | 19:11 |
| VLJ | osc is a free software however, you could download it if it's available for your distro | 19:11 |
| ali1234 | osc is just the client for the server | 19:12 |
| VLJ | yes | 19:12 |
| ali1234 | it's useless alone | 19:12 |
| VLJ | err | 19:12 |
| VLJ | you can build things localy | 19:12 |
| VLJ | I mean | 19:12 |
| VLJ | osc can do update to server, such thing | 19:12 |
| VLJ | but you can "try locally" | 19:12 |
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| ali1234 | dunno what that means | 19:12 |
| VLJ | with "osc build" command, osc will seek every dependencies | 19:13 |
| VLJ | download them on your hard drive | 19:13 |
| VLJ | and build the thing on your host | 19:13 |
| Votan | damien_l as you can see, we are kinda stuck :) How are you guys building ur images ? I suppose you do build ur trunk every now and then to test it on some test hardware ? | 19:13 |
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| ali1234 | VLJ: so osc can run without a server? | 19:13 |
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| VLJ | you still need opensuse server somewhere to provide the dependencies | 19:14 |
| ali1234 | the repository? | 19:14 |
| VLJ | but the building can occur localy | 19:14 |
| ali1234 | opensuse server isn't going to provide any deps cos i'm not building opensuse packages | 19:14 |
| VLJ | ok | 19:14 |
| VLJ | so it should work without opensuse server | 19:14 |
| lbt | not quite | 19:14 |
| lbt | the deps come from the project setup | 19:15 |
| VLJ | but you still need an image of the things on moblin repository | 19:15 |
| ali1234 | i have a mirror of moblin 2.1 repo | 19:15 |
| lbt | also, you won't need a novell login for the meego obs | 19:15 |
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| VLJ | there is a meego obs ? | 19:15 |
| ali1234 | lbt: i am not interested in using someone else's server. it all runs locally, or i don't use it | 19:16 |
| lbt | not yet | 19:16 |
| lbt | it runs locally | 19:16 |
| lbt | you know how debian provide an http server that you don't mind using ... :) | 19:16 |
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| ali1234 | so what, exactly, do i need to install? | 19:16 |
| lbt | you install osc and build | 19:16 |
| lbt | and it then downloads all the rpms needed to build your package | 19:16 |
| lbt | based on a recursive analysis | 19:17 |
| lbt | of the build-depends | 19:17 |
| VLJ | (moreless like emerge ?) | 19:17 |
| lbt | less | 19:17 |
| ali1234 | more like mock | 19:17 |
| lbt | <grin> | 19:17 |
| lbt | yes | 19:17 |
| ali1234 | except with the recursive analysis | 19:17 |
| VLJ | mock ? | 19:17 |
| lbt | except it works for rpm and deb | 19:17 |
| lbt | and it has multi-arch | 19:17 |
| Votan | I am kinda losing it here now :> | 19:17 |
| lbt | and shedloads more good stuff | 19:17 |
| lbt | and it's GPL | 19:18 |
| lbt | (like mock etc) | 19:18 |
| ali1234 | lbt: so, there's that Mer page about setting up OBS? | 19:18 |
| VLJ | err OBS is the only way to build moblin from source ? | 19:18 |
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| lbt | ali1234: yep | 19:18 |
| ali1234 | lbt: the one that says i need a novell login? | 19:18 |
| lbt | VLJ: no | 19:18 |
| VLJ | but it's the easiest way ? | 19:18 |
| ali1234 | lbt: if i follow those instructions for ubuntu, do i *really* need a novell login, will i be able to do what you just said? | 19:19 |
| lbt | ali1234: for Mer you do.... Novell/openSuse graciously provide Mer with a shitload of CPUs | 19:19 |
| lbt | and they want you to login | 19:19 |
| ali1234 | lbt: basically, does that suse repo for ubuntu contain everything i need for local building? | 19:19 |
| lbt | you *really* need a login to use it for Mer | 19:19 |
| lbt | yes | 19:19 |
| VLJ | what is Mer ? | 19:19 |
| lbt | http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer | 19:20 |
| lbt | community free port of maemo | 19:20 |
| ali1234 | lbt: just out of interest, why? just because mer is so big? | 19:20 |
| lbt | why what? | 19:20 |
| ali1234 | why i *really* need a login for mer | 19:20 |
| ali1234 | but not other things | 19:20 |
| lbt | you need a login if you want to build for Mer using the OBS (which is the only way) | 19:21 |
| ali1234 | what if i want to build for mer... locally | 19:21 |
| VLJ | ok | 19:21 |
| lbt | you need a login if you want to build locally for Mer using the OBS (which is the only way) | 19:21 |
| ali1234 | i still don't get it | 19:21 |
| lbt | heh | 19:22 |
| ali1234 | what if i grab all the mer source, make a project, and build that locally? | 19:22 |
| lbt | feel free | 19:22 |
| ali1234 | i need a login for that? | 19:22 |
| lbt | actually, right now, yes :) | 19:22 |
| ali1234 | doh. why? | 19:22 |
| lbt | since we don't have all the source externally in a sane place | 19:22 |
| ali1234 | ok, i see | 19:22 |
| lbt | WIP | 19:22 |
| ali1234 | i think, anyway | 19:22 |
| lbt | there were 2 of us.... | 19:23 |
| VLJ | to build moblin trunk with osc | 19:23 |
| lbt | we had priorities... | 19:23 |
| lcuk | lbt, is there a read only login you could leave on wiki page | 19:23 |
| ali1234 | i need the login to get mer specific files, which i *could* in theory build myself, but it would be much easier just to have a login | 19:23 |
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| lbt | lcuk: no | 19:23 |
| VLJ | I need to type "osc co moblin ; osc build" dont I ? | 19:23 |
| ali1234 | lbt: not criticizing, just trying to understand how it fits together | 19:23 |
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| lbt | ali1234: yep -- frankly we didn't have the bandwidth to deal with "I don't want an account" people | 19:23 |
| lcuk | ali1234, even if you wanted to build everything locally, to access and download the files you need a login | 19:24 |
| lcuk | lbt where are you storing the other mer stuff - mp3 stuff? | 19:24 |
| lcuk | or is that simply not a part of mer at this time | 19:25 |
| lbt | it's not | 19:25 |
| lcuk | i guess that restriction hits quite a number of packages | 19:26 |
| lcuk | will meego have the same issue? | 19:26 |
| lcuk | since that will be based on obs | 19:26 |
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| lbt | these are all issues with the free service | 19:27 |
| Stskeeps | no, it is a polciy issue | 19:27 |
| lbt | policy decisions | 19:27 |
| lbt | heh | 19:27 |
| VLJ | lbt > is the last moblin trunk in OBS ? or is there only opensuse customized image of moblin there ? | 19:27 |
| lbt | due to legalities in germany | 19:27 |
| lbt | VLJ: only opensuse | 19:28 |
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| lbt | I don't know the plans around meego obs | 19:28 |
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| VLJ | if I want to build vanilla moblin, what is the procedure ? | 19:28 |
| lcuk | so big company can push the packages that free ones cannot? | 19:28 |
| VLJ | lcuk you pay for software from big company | 19:29 |
| VLJ | licencees fee are included in the price | 19:29 |
| lcuk | VLJ, same open source packages | 19:29 |
| lcuk | mplayer | 19:29 |
| lcuk | mp3 codecs etc | 19:29 |
| VLJ | mplayer is not legal in germany I think | 19:29 |
| VLJ | mp3 encoding is protected by patents | 19:30 |
| VLJ | and mp3 decoding too | 19:30 |
| lcuk | so will meego have problems building a complete stack using the obs servers | 19:30 |
| lcuk | is what i am wondering | 19:30 |
| lbt | not at all | 19:30 |
| lbt | it won't use the Novell service | 19:30 |
| lbt | so will be free to decide policy | 19:31 |
| lbt | and I think Intel can handle hosting mplayer :) | 19:31 |
| lcuk | that makes sense now | 19:31 |
| VLJ | mp3 is not the only available audio format out there anyway... | 19:31 |
| lcuk | VLJ, was just an example | 19:31 |
| lcuk | from what i understand theres a whole swath of open source stuff that cannot be built in obs | 19:32 |
| VLJ | you can convert all your media files to free ones | 19:32 |
| lcuk | VLJ, you can, but how do you tell someone who has bought 3000 tracks from amazon that work everywhere else they cannot use them here | 19:33 |
| lcuk | errr there | 19:33 |
| lcuk | we are i nthe wrong chan for htis | 19:33 |
| VLJ | you can tell him that he paid for "everywhere else" ;) | 19:33 |
| VLJ | every device manufacturers pay licences fee | 19:34 |
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| VLJ | I think that boxed version of opensuse ship with mp3 codecs | 19:34 |
| ali1234 | lcuk: people have to learn why patents are bad at some point | 19:35 |
| VLJ | Votan did you find the tutorial ? | 19:35 |
| lcuk | ali1234, yes, but it wont be in meego if the build doesnt have the restriction | 19:36 |
| ali1234 | generic meego is unlikely to have mp3 support, but i guess device manufacturers will add it (after paying the licence) | 19:36 |
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| ali1234 | lbt: one last question, do i need to install the debian qemu on ubuntu, if i'm only building for x86? | 19:37 |
| lbt | no | 19:37 |
| ali1234 | thanks | 19:37 |
| lbt | although if you follow the Mer build tutorial | 19:37 |
| lbt | you may find you're building for arm without realising it :) | 19:38 |
| VLJ | Mer can run on a desktop pc ? | 19:38 |
| lbt | yes | 19:38 |
| VLJ | with xorg ? | 19:38 |
| VLJ | and hildon ? | 19:38 |
| ali1234 | lbt: i only want to build moblin... | 19:38 |
| lbt | not really the target though | 19:38 |
| VLJ | btw what will happen to hildon, as meego interface is the one from moblin ? | 19:39 |
| ali1234 | VLJ: meego will have multiple interfaces | 19:39 |
| kebax | ux? | 19:39 |
| arjan | what happened to hildon in maemo 6 ? | 19:40 |
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| andre__ | arjan, past tense when Maemo 6 is not released yet? :) | 19:44 |
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| GeneralAntilles | arjan, who the hell knows. ;) | 19:45 |
| tripzero | nobody | 19:45 |
| kebax | er, maemo 6 is not meego? | 19:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | kebax, . . . sort of? | 19:45 |
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| VLJ | how up to date are packages in opensuse moblin tree ? | 19:46 |
| timeless_mbp | kebax: maemo6 is vaporware until it ships | 19:46 |
| timeless_mbp | and meego is vaporware until it ships | 19:46 |
| timeless_mbp | so, there's no way to know until they both ship | 19:46 |
| timeless_mbp | the maemo6 schedule is unknown | 19:46 |
| kebax | but moblin 2.2 is not vaporware? | 19:46 |
| timeless_mbp | collectively, that means the answers are entirely unknown | 19:47 |
| timeless_mbp | http://moblin.org/downloads doesn't list moblin 2.1 | 19:47 |
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| Corsac | kebax: what we heard was that maemo6 will be re-branded as meego, that's all | 19:47 |
| Corsac | kebax: we didn't know when it'd be out, we still don't know :) | 19:47 |
| timeless_mbp | so by the powers vested in me as a native English speaker, i do hereby claim that moblin 2.2 is also vaporware | 19:47 |
| timeless_mbp | and actually, i'm under the (possibly mistaken) impression that moblin 2.2 will never exist, and will instead be meego something x.y | 19:48 |
| kebax | er, moblin 2.1 is there alright | 19:48 |
| timeless_mbp | where something, x, and y are all unknown to me at this time :) | 19:48 |
| kebax | I have even ran it | 19:48 |
| timeless_mbp | i've used moblin 2.1 too | 19:48 |
| timeless_mbp | but you asked about 2.2 | 19:48 |
| Corsac | My guess is something like: Meego 1.0 for handelds (M6) and Meego 1.0 for netbooks (M2.2) | 19:49 |
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| Corsac | now your turn | 19:49 |
| timeless_mbp | guessing is expensive | 19:49 |
| Corsac | naaah | 19:49 |
| timeless_mbp | i'd rather let someone else read the tea leaves | 19:49 |
| Corsac | mine is pretty cheap | 19:49 |
| Corsac | but I use random guesses | 19:50 |
| timeless_mbp | personally, i'd hope their initial release would be 0.x | 19:50 |
| Corsac | and what about Meego 1.0 for workgroups? | 19:50 |
| kebax | 19:47 < timeless_mbp> http://moblin.org/downloads doesn't list moblin 2.1 | 19:50 |
| kebax | :) | 19:50 |
| timeless_mbp | gah | 19:50 |
| ali1234 | lbt: hmm... so if i don't have a novell login, what do i enter when i run osc? | 19:50 |
| timeless_mbp | kebax: sorry, thought transference failure | 19:50 |
| Corsac | kebax: the power vested in him as a native English speaker allow him to do typos | 19:51 |
| timeless_mbp | i obviously meant to say 'doesn't list 2.2' in response to your question about 2.2 | 19:51 |
| lbt | ali1234: whatever you like, it won't work | 19:51 |
| kebax | okay | 19:51 |
| ali1234 | lbt: so then i must run build directly? | 19:51 |
| VLJ | BTW how can I run moblin image creator 2 under opensuse ? | 19:51 |
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| VLJ | the package in the git repo of mic2 miss some dependencies | 19:52 |
| lbt | ali1234: seriously... how much of my time do you want to waste because you don't want a novell login? Please don't be so selfish :) | 19:52 |
| ali1234 | lbt: i do not understand why i need one | 19:52 |
| ali1234 | lbt: i do not want to compile any project which exists on a opensuse server | 19:52 |
| lbt | Because we're using the novell service at the moment | 19:52 |
| lbt | when you use another OBS, you'lll need a login for that | 19:53 |
| ali1234 | lbt: so the osc / build tools cannot in fact be used without a remote server? | 19:53 |
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| lbt | if you want to support anonymous usage then work with us on the OBS and help design a solution | 19:53 |
| lbt | ali1234: they need to work with an OBS at setup time | 19:53 |
| lbt | just like you can't use apt-get without a remote http server | 19:54 |
| ali1234 | i can use it with my local http server... | 19:54 |
| VLJ | lbt > the moblin image from obs will erase all the disk ? | 19:54 |
| lbt | you can setup a local OBS | 19:54 |
| lbt | I have one here | 19:54 |
| ali1234 | in fact i can use it with the local apt-cache | 19:54 |
| lbt | I need to login to it | 19:54 |
| ali1234 | so, when you said i don't need a login, that actually wasn't true :) | 19:54 |
| ali1234 | anyway, afk for a bit | 19:55 |
| lbt | context? | 19:55 |
| kebax | apt-get can use local server alright | 19:55 |
| lbt | kebax: no? really? | 19:55 |
| Corsac | yeah, windows breaks lines on non-breakable spaces | 19:55 |
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| VLJ | I'd like to have a moblin partition, and not a one partition disk for moblin | 19:57 |
| VLJ | the goblin image from novell forge did not allow several partitions | 19:57 |
| Votan | VLJ apparently the tut got pulled off the site ... i tried with google cache, but wasnt able to find it either, sry :( | 19:58 |
| VLJ | so obs is the only way atm to build moblin | 19:59 |
| th0br0 | hello everyone | 20:00 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | it would be nice to go from ethernet to wifi without having to reconenct | 20:04 |
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| blino | no git.meego.org yet? | 20:04 |
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| VLJ | blino you know how to build moblin ? | 20:05 |
| blino | in some very peculiar way, yes | 20:06 |
| VLJ | how ? | 20:06 |
| VLJ | :) | 20:06 |
| blino | well, I work at Mandriva, and we do not rebuild the Moblin packages directly, but we merge the packages in our distribution | 20:07 |
| VLJ | ho k | 20:07 |
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| damien_l | Votan: sorry, was in a meeting, yes we do, no official announcement has been made for public images yet | 20:12 |
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| blino | damien_l: are the public packages and git repos going to be put back online soon? | 20:14 |
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| damien_l | blino: git repos have always been there, as for the official public packages I think some time is still needed | 20:17 |
| blino | damien_l: git.meego.org is unreachable right now, transient issue maybe... | 20:17 |
| blino | damien_l: well, the packages used to be online for a few hours, this week-end :) | 20:17 |
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| damien_l | blino: I'm talking about http://git.moblin.org/, no one uses git.meego.org AFAIK | 20:19 |
| damien_l | you can see commits in the last hours on git.moblin.org | 20:20 |
| blino | damien_l: the MeeGo website already points to git.meego.org :) | 20:20 |
| damien_l | that's future-proof but it's not reality as we speak :p | 20:21 |
| timeless | could someone please poke the irc log host? the search doesn't exist | 20:22 |
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| Votan | damien_l no official statement on public builds means u could unofficial link to one ? :> | 20:23 |
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| damien_l | that does not mean anything else than "not ready yet" : | 20:27 |
| megabast | salut damien :) | 20:28 |
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| zaizafoon | hello | 20:28 |
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| damien_l | megabast: salut (I guess I know you?) | 20:29 |
| megabast | damien_l: I just suppose that you're french as I am | 20:30 |
| zaizafoon | anyone familiar with molbin? | 20:30 |
| damien_l | megabast: ooh, then you're right :p | 20:30 |
| auke | molbin? doesn't ring a bell :) | 20:31 |
| megabast | damien_l: hehe ;) | 20:31 |
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| MisterN | zaizafoon: molbin = moblin? | 20:31 |
| zaizafoon | molbin is a linux dist | 20:31 |
| RST38h | moreblin | 20:32 |
| zaizafoon | i know they have a room on this server | 20:32 |
| megabast | ask you're question zaizafoon | 20:33 |
| Votan | rumours! | 20:33 |
| megabast | it's easier | 20:33 |
| megabast | lol Votan | 20:33 |
| Votan | ;> | 20:33 |
| RST38h | No, this server does not support AOL rooms. You should check on AOL | 20:33 |
| zaizafoon | mega i want to add a language support | 20:34 |
| auke | you can ask stuff about moblin in here, just like you can ask stuff about maemo here | 20:34 |
| zaizafoon | auke thanks | 20:34 |
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| auke | there's an l10n mailinglist, and there is the existing translation projects for moblin and maemo | 20:34 |
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| bpeel | zaizafoon: l10n@moblin.org is the mailing list | 20:35 |
| megabast | http://moblin.org/projects/localization-l10n | 20:35 |
| auke | there ya go :) | 20:35 |
| auke | translations.moblin.org | 20:35 |
| auke | err | 20:35 |
| auke | that's wrong | 20:35 |
| auke | http://translate.moblin.org/projects/ | 20:35 |
| ali1234 | lbt: context: http://fpaste.org/zyGP/ <- you forgot to mention the part where a login on a OBS server is mandatory | 20:37 |
| ali1234 | although i'm not clear on what purpose it serves if "it runs locally" as you say | 20:38 |
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| kebax | so whats the problem getting a login if you want it done? | 20:43 |
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| leinir | well, there's also openid which is sort of made for people who don't like to have logins everywhere... | 20:44 |
| ali1234 | kebax: getting it done is less important to me than knowing how to do it | 20:45 |
| Votan | leinir that's why one should use keepasss:) | 20:45 |
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| ali1234 | so it looks like to use OBS to compile moblin, i need to: setup an OBS server, create an account on it, create a new project, upload all moblin source, then check out my project with osc, and only then can i actually use osc to build something | 20:51 |
| tripzero | you make it sound complicated ;) | 20:51 |
| ali1234 | if i use the opensuse server, i get to skip the first step. woohoo | 20:51 |
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| zaizafoon | ali where r u from? | 20:52 |
| ali1234 | zaizafoon: united kingdom | 20:53 |
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| zaizafoon | iam from kuwait | 20:54 |
| ali1234 | the main problem i have with using the opensuse server is that i doubt they will give me as much CPU time as i have sitting idle here | 20:56 |
| ali1234 | but i suppose if i am building locally that doesn't matter | 20:57 |
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| * Cosmo[PB] wonders if meego will run on a PII with a Nvidia 6200 | 21:03 | |
| auke | PII? wow | 21:04 |
| auke | currently won't | 21:04 |
| auke | not unless you rebuild | 21:04 |
| mikeleib | need SSSE3 instructions | 21:04 |
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| mutrax | Hi all... | 21:06 |
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| mutrax | Pls don't shoot but i'm just joining for a quick question.... | 21:06 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | oh "please" | 21:07 |
| Cosmo[PB] | i thought you meant pentium 1 for a second | 21:07 |
| tripzero | mutrax, yes, meego is really the new name | 21:08 |
| tripzero | ;) | 21:08 |
| mutrax | hehehe.. naah , probeabely heared it a few times... but will the N900 be still worth buying, meego upgradable? | 21:09 |
| tripzero | dang, i was going to answer that one too | 21:09 |
| mutrax | btw.. meego is pretty cool for a name.. good thing intel & nokia partnering up instead of compeeting... | 21:09 |
| tripzero | mutrax, no official word, however, there will likely be a community port if not | 21:09 |
| tripzero | at least there's been talk of a community maintained port | 21:10 |
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| smhar | I, too, am thinking about buying N900, but thought I better wait till things are clear | 21:10 |
| mutrax | ah.... thanks for the answer... I was guessing to.. I just needed a portable linux device.. better to wait a bit and go about with the laptop ;) | 21:11 |
| tripzero | i just bought one | 21:11 |
| tripzero | ;) | 21:11 |
| mutrax | evrything they say it is? can you install .deb apps? | 21:11 |
| mutrax | well at least if they are ported | 21:12 |
| Cosmo[PB] | meego will use rpm | 21:12 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | well a rpm or a deb is just a packeged software | 21:13 |
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| tripzero | so if the question is, can i install other apps, the answer is yet | 21:13 |
| tripzero | yes8 | 21:13 |
| mutrax | yah.. so I heared... guess Intel won that discussion ..... ;) I'm a big Debian / ubuntu convert.. to much frills on RH/suse | 21:13 |
| mutrax | nicenice.. I need it mostly for openvpn and ssh sessions | 21:14 |
| ali1234 | mutrax: you're not missing anything with the switch to rpm, nokia completely screwed up the implementation of debs anyway | 21:14 |
| tripzero | lol | 21:14 |
| ali1234 | if you are used to debian/ubuntu you will hate how maemo uses debs | 21:14 |
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| mutrax | hmmmm.. good to know... So its defenitly worth the wait for the first meego device. | 21:15 |
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| ali1234 | unless you want to gamble on meego getting ported to the N900, which there is currently no definitive answer on | 21:15 |
| t-tan | ali1234: Nokia didn't screw the debs, but their contents | 21:16 |
| ali1234 | they also screwed the versions and the depends | 21:16 |
| mutrax | naah.. not that big of a spender on cell phones to be buiny 2 600€ phones in one year... I just need *nix phone that can load openvpn, surf a bit and do some ssh'in.. the rest will be just for fun (Moehahaha) | 21:17 |
| RST38h | Maybe Stskeeps can try porting MeeGo to N900 ;) | 21:17 |
| t-tan | ali1234: the used outdated version. rpm/deb is not relevant. the dependencies and the package policies are | 21:17 |
| RST38h | Although, based on my experience it may be problematic | 21:17 |
| ali1234 | t-tan: agreed. using deb or rpm is meaningless if you don't use them properly | 21:17 |
| t-tan | the question is not whether Nokia will port MeeGo but whether they will port or open the proprietary drivers | 21:18 |
| mutrax | descent package manager are the only thing that make *nix devices/system idiot proof and for the masses | 21:18 |
| * tripzero isn't worried | 21:19 | |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: kernel is open and userland is a matter of asking the right people. | 21:19 |
| Stskeeps | i am not worried either. | 21:19 |
| ali1234 | well, i created a OBS account | 21:19 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: titan on tmo? | 21:20 |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: correct :) | 21:20 |
| ali1234 | i can't use it to build moblin, because the moblin repo isn't one of the available build repositories | 21:20 |
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| Stskeeps | t-tan: can we sit at some point and talk debian mobile so i can keep you from shooting yourself in the foot on many issues? not now, but an hour one on one at some point | 21:21 |
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| Stskeeps | (this is not a rpm vs deb talk) | 21:21 |
| mutrax | Anyhuew.. thanks for taking the time answering my questions.. goodnight... | 21:21 |
| Pwannell | hi all | 21:22 |
| t-tan | it's no a "binary" problem but matter of how difficult it is, e.g. to update the 3D driver | 21:22 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: thanks. we should meet together with yoush | 21:22 |
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| Stskeeps | t-tan: 3d driver doesn't care about anything than libc and x linking | 21:23 |
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| Pwannell | this is a big channel considering meego is relatively new | 21:23 |
| Pwannell | :D | 21:23 |
| Pwannell | im hoping the hardware on n900 can cope with it | 21:24 |
| blino | Stskeeps: so, the Fedora port could have 3D working pretty easily? meaning clutter-based UI ? | 21:24 |
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| Stskeeps | blino: check my blip.tv video on twitter.com/stskeeps | 21:24 |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: that's what I expected and that's why I believe that it should be feasible to replace the outdate Maemo based with a more recent Debian base | 21:24 |
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| Stskeeps | t-tan: right, except it's deeper than that.. but lemme get to my laptop before i can explain further | 21:25 |
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| Stskeeps | t-tan: check out Maemo:Mer:Devel:2.0:Test2 project on build.opensuse.org | 21:26 |
| t-tan | ... but sometime in the future we might get some incompatibilities with new X.org versions | 21:26 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: ok, thanks. I will wait. | 21:26 |
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| Stskeeps | check out that project meanwhile | 21:26 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | if meego is just software packaged configured in a specific way, you should be able to port it by recompiling the packaged | 21:27 |
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| ali1234 | hmm build seems almost exactly the same as mock... maybe i can use it directly and skip this OBS nonsense | 21:31 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: what you are looking at is m5 free parts plus some closed dependancy replacements/packages | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | built on top of lenny | 21:32 |
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| Stskeeps | with some tricks | 21:32 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: I'm just creating an account to access the page | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | you need to really rape your debootstrapped chroot but it works and is api compatible | 21:33 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: our plans is to keep and to repackage the original Nokia binaries for now | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | yes, i know | 21:34 |
| Stskeeps | same here, but not the base system | 21:34 |
| thiago_home | remember to not change the paths of the libraries the closed software depends on | 21:34 |
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| t-tan | thiago_home: if it doesnt work with more recent free libraries, we just keep the original libraries somewhere else and apply chrpath | 21:35 |
| thiago_home | t-tan: and change all the strings inside the binary that contain paths? | 21:36 |
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| thiago_home | also patch any code that concatenates paths? | 21:36 |
| t-tan | thiago_home: I'm refering to paths of library dependencies | 21:37 |
| thiago_home | and I'm referring to paths that the binary may have hardcoded | 21:37 |
| thiago_home | including paths coming from dependencies | 21:37 |
| t-tan | thiago_home: do you have concrete examples of paths we would have to change? | 21:38 |
| thiago_home | no, but I can conjure up examples | 21:38 |
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| thiago_home | the Qt plugin dir, for example | 21:38 |
| t-tan | it would be easier to create symlinks | 21:39 |
| thiago_home | yes, but you have to find them all in the first place | 21:39 |
| thiago_home | which is why "don't move" is easier | 21:39 |
| t-tan | we'll see whether moving is necessary at all | 21:39 |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: ok, I finally got access to the project page... | 21:43 |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: I'm not sure whether we'll start with a fully debootstrapped chroot or with selectively installing packages from lenny in a Maemo5 chroot | 21:44 |
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| Stskeeps | t-tan: also, i have to ask the golden question.. Why are you doing it? :P | 21:50 |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: I want to have the same distribution on my differences machines. I want to be able to install all software availble in the repositories | 21:51 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, yes, debian repos is interesting but jebba's build of etch solves a lot of issues | 21:51 |
| t-tan | jebba's work is nice but still based on etch and still an ugly workaround | 21:52 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 21:52 |
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| t-tan | the whole /optification is a mess and I believe I know how to do things better than Maemo5 | 21:53 |
| Stskeeps | right, guess where i started out? | 21:53 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:53 |
| t-tan | :) the improvements should not be too difficult to implement | 21:53 |
| t-tan | please keep that as quote :D | 21:54 |
| t-tan | ...years later | 21:54 |
| Stskeeps | right, so your goal is to have, basically, maemo5 on top of debian, right? | 21:55 |
| Stskeeps | and use some closed packages to fill the void, to have a proper OS | 21:55 |
| thiago_home | the eMMC size cannot be changed | 21:55 |
| t-tan | correct. so that I can continue using all functions + get Easy Debian integrated. | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | you mean NAND | 21:56 |
| ali1234 | it can however be mounted in a different place | 21:56 |
| t-tan | neither can be changed :) | 21:56 |
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| thiago_home | ali1234: where else other than / would you want it? | 21:56 |
| t-tan | yes, mounting is trick | 21:56 |
| ali1234 | thiago_home: eMMC on /? that's exactly what i *would* have done :) | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | say unionfs/aufs\ and i'll have to beat you with a stick | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | anyway, t-tan, let's take this in #mer since it's closer to mer^2, not meego | 21:57 |
| t-tan | I'm using symlinks to NAND for now. (ch)root is on eMMC | 21:57 |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: ok, maybe lets schedule a meeting together with other people involved | 21:58 |
| thiago_home | t-tan: so the fast memory is not the boot device? | 21:58 |
| t-tan | thiago: there are two options: eMMC is boot or chroot very early to eMMC | 21:59 |
| t-tan | don't know whether the latter is feasible | 21:59 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: but if your goal is to put maemo5 stack on top of debian5, then you want mer^2 which has that as goal. it is closer in terms of init scripts, bootup sequence, to fremantle than to debian. | 21:59 |
| t-tan | early = during boot | 21:59 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: no need to duplicate work in that regard | 21:59 |
| ali1234 | the fremantle initscripts are pretty lame | 22:00 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: I know that there is large overlap interests and we are still in planning phase | 22:00 |
| ali1234 | one missing file = endless reboot | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | but then it's no longer 'debian mobile' and it's centered around a certain type of devices | 22:00 |
| ali1234 | and all services are started by X | 22:00 |
| t-tan | we definitely don't want to reinvent the wheel - that's why want to use as much Debian as possible | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | cos it will be lightyears before you replace all items of maemo5 | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | with open parts | 22:01 |
| thiago_home | t-tan: I see. Boot to NAND, then chroot to a special dir that has the rest of the system, with /bin, /lib, /sbin, /etc, etc. bind-mounted? | 22:01 |
| javispedro | I'm pretty sure you can live with the rootfs not being in NAND, if that's your primary motivation. | 22:01 |
| t-tan | thiago_home: exactly. ideally dual boot so that you can always fall-back to Maemo5 | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: but anyway, mer^2 works on x86 too. so it should work on n900 too. | 22:02 |
| javispedro | The speed hit shouldn't be that much noticeable if you either disable swap or move it somewhere else. | 22:02 |
| thiago_home | t-tan: most applications live in /usr, so you'd want the most often-used apps to be in the faster memory. | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: please keep in mind it is a lot of effort for no visible user effect :P | 22:02 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: yes, for now its N900 specific but the N900 changes should be kept separate | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: of course, they'd have to be for x86, n8x0 too | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:02 |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: the most visible user effect is the absense of the /opt problem | 22:03 |
| thiago_home | how is that a user problem? | 22:04 |
| thiago_home | the user doesn't care or see /opt | 22:04 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: that's solvable with a maemo fix easily. look at lcuk's boottime opt | 22:04 |
| ali1234 | unless the user wants to install something that hasn't been packaged for them | 22:04 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: and to add more fuel to the fire, clone to SD has been done for ages by people | 22:04 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:04 |
| javispedro | ali1234: which is something he shouldn't be doing in the first place. | 22:05 |
| ali1234 | i think the biggest win would be switching to a sane init that supports console fallback and proper services | 22:05 |
| ali1234 | ability to install a toolchain on the device is just extra payoff | 22:05 |
| t-tan | all those solutions can be reused. we don't need to reinvent. that's why I hope it's no too much effort | 22:06 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: anyway, i'm doing mer^2 for three reasons, n8x0 backport, fremantle afterlife on n900 and harmattan on n900 if it turns out nokia isn't bringing it back. that's visible user effect. | 22:06 |
| t-tan | javispedro: all Debian packages are not packaged for the user | 22:06 |
| Stskeeps | it's a foundation to do easy backports | 22:06 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: and I fully support that | 22:07 |
| javispedro | t-tan: most debian etch packages are packaged actually. | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | if anyone wants to apply tricks on top of that, be my guest | 22:07 |
| t-tan | javispedro: rebuild, but send through QA? | 22:07 |
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| javispedro | t-tan: but optified | 22:08 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: but anyway, i'm just saying it's stupid to run two seperate projects :) | 22:08 |
| t-tan | another advantage is that I could install test selective modifications to core firmware packages (e.g ke-recv) without breaking the device | 22:08 |
| javispedro | There's no chance we can apply the currently required testing by the Maemo QA on each and every Debian package. | 22:09 |
| t-tan | my goal is to install the original Debian packages | 22:09 |
| javispedro | which are not Maemo' QA'd either. | 22:09 |
| t-tan | sure. because the system will be Debian with a Maemo compatibilty layer | 22:10 |
| * lbt looks ack at the easy-debian references... | 22:11 | |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: if we can somehow tweak Mer to suit our needs that would be best solution | 22:11 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: saw my screenshot of how realistic the goal actually is? | 22:11 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: which one? | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer2-imageviewer.png | 22:12 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: I'm missing the context. you mean the Nokia image viewer wont work, or does already work? | 22:14 |
| Stskeeps | t-tan: works. | 22:14 |
| Stskeeps | strings is just a small issue :) | 22:14 |
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| t-tan | so my optimism is justified :) | 22:14 |
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| Stskeeps | yes, but to say it in the nicest way posible, i said "Yes, do as I say!" at least once while building the image | 22:15 |
| t-tan | the N900 is a nice device to talk you :D. We'll convince it! | 22:16 |
| t-tan | s/you/to/ | 22:16 |
| infobot | t-tan meant: the N900 is a nice device to talk to :D. We'll convince it! | 22:16 |
| lbt | oh, hello infobot | 22:16 |
| Clay | offer it candy? | 22:16 |
| * leinir is looking forward to Mer/MeeGo on the touchbook ;) | 22:23 | |
| lcuk | collaberative maps for n900 owners: where in the world are you? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45094&page=9 | 22:24 |
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| Stskeeps | t-tan: no evenings UTC+2 for me, mon-wed-fri, always at polish classes there :P | 23:03 |
| t-tan | Stskeeps: I see. (and we need a IRC<->TMO translator :) | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | i can post on tmo but it's past my bedtime ;) | 23:04 |
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| t-tan | hmm, lots schedule conflicts. maybe should stick to the tmo thread for now? | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | maybe | 23:07 |
| Stskeeps | i hope to have some real demos out of mer^2 sooner or later | 23:07 |
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| t-tan | Stskeeps: it would be nice if you could just drop a few lines in thread | 23:08 |
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| t-tan | ...when you have time (but please not in polish :) | 23:09 |
| Stskeeps | i'm danish :P | 23:09 |
| Stskeeps | just living abroad :) | 23:09 |
| t-tan | I know, but you're learning it. danish would be difficult to understand as well | 23:10 |
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| t-tan | Maemo is Finnished, Mer is Polished.. :) | 23:12 |
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| heinz | t-tan: come on, polish is not bad. and if you redirect all sibilance to /dev/null, you can even enjoy a quiet afternoon.. | 23:14 |
| t-tan | heinz: who claimed that Mer would be bad? | 23:15 |
| heinz | surely not me... | 23:16 |
| * heinz looks around in despair. | 23:17 | |
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| Stskeeps | wb zerojay, ezjd and anaZ | 23:22 |
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| ezjd | lo Stskeeps | 23:25 |
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| ezjd | Stskeeps: I guess it was a busy week for you guys with the emails, IRC, forum posts ... :) | 23:26 |
| Stskeeps | damn straight | 23:26 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:27 |
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