IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2010-02-21

ezjd	According to this(http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support), sort of MeeGo project already exists in OBS. So I am wondering if it is OpenSuse's OBS or Linux Fundation's OBS, which I don't have access.	00:00
ShadowJK	probably neither	00:00
Stskeeps	they are still setting up the public infra afaik	00:01
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ezjd	OK. I will wait for the new build farm ...	00:02
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CosmoHill	dammit, if i leave it to long it boots windows	00:02
CosmoHill	how to i tell linux to boot into text only mode / don't start x11	00:04
Corsac	try booting to single user	00:05
damien_l	3	00:05
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autoguy	Crap! Just realized (again) that Moblin2 requires SSE3 CPU. I knew there was a reason I hadn't tried it before.	00:11
CosmoHill	dammit	00:11
autoguy	There's no version without that requirement I guess?	00:11
CosmoHill	autoguy: I'm trying ubuntu moblin remix	00:12
autoguy	Yeah I have run that before on my eee 900	00:12
CosmoHill	it's a bitch to install nvidia on	00:12
autoguy	I remembered now I had tried to get moblin on it once before	00:12
autoguy	It has a Celeron M unfortunately, no SSE3 so I guess that's why it doesn't run	00:12
autoguy	CosmoHill: Yeah, well no such advanced graphics in my netbook :)	00:13
autoguy	I couldn't help you there. I run normal ubuntu on my laptop with nvidia chips	00:14
autoguy	and there it was easy	00:14
CosmoHill	i need to install nvidia, to to that i need command line	00:14
autoguy	Bummer, but maybe you'll learn something in the process	00:15
CosmoHill	cough ubuntu	00:15
CosmoHill	?	00:15
autoguy	is off topic ;)	00:15
autoguy	moblin is closer	00:16
CosmoHill	i hope meego supports nvidia	00:16
ShadowJK	i guess that depends on nouveau :)	00:16
CosmoHill	if you'd like to know how to crash ubuntu moblin i seem to be coming an expert	00:16
autoguy	I hope meego supports PowerVR and the like. Who cares about netbooks	00:16
autoguy	Portables is where it's at. On lap&netbooks I'm fine with normal distros or Ubuntu NBR to be honest	00:17
CosmoHill	i'm just trying it out	00:18
CosmoHill	i have a full laptop	00:18
CosmoHill	with a cd drive and everything	00:18
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autoguy	Lucky you :)	00:19
CosmoHill	yeah :)	00:19
CosmoHill	friend gave it to me when he got a new one	00:20
CosmoHill	brb	00:21
jebba	"Access Denied. You are not authorized to access this page." http://meego.com/user/register	00:23
Stskeeps	i think someone reported it, otherwise send to meego-community@	00:23
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CosmoHill	oh my god this is so awesome now that i have graphics drivers	00:32
CosmoHill	hmm	00:34
CosmoHill	werid	00:34
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sh0gun	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpOlcm-X9cc	00:35
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CosmoHill	battery, sound and network display fine	00:36
CosmoHill	internet, pasteboard and the rest are blank	00:37
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CosmoHill	also people shows networks :/	00:38
autoguy	CosmoHill: Nvidia driver now done?	00:39
CosmoHill	yes	00:39
autoguy	what did you have to do?	00:39
CosmoHill	i only needed to install things you'd never need on a netbook	00:39
autoguy	?	00:40
CosmoHill	installed binutils, ssh and build-essential	00:40
autoguy	and then?	00:40
CosmoHill	had to login to the netbook via ssh	00:40
CosmoHill	init 1	00:40
CosmoHill	init 4	00:40
CosmoHill	ern	00:40
autoguy	Are you saying you had no graphics at all before?	00:40
CosmoHill	init 1 and init3	00:40
CosmoHill	i had vesa or something	00:40
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autoguy	ok, I didn't understand why ssh needed	00:41
CosmoHill	sudo sh NVIDIA.....run	00:41
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CosmoHill	cos you need to kill x11 to install the drivers	00:41
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CosmoHill	you end up with the background image and nothing else	00:41
autoguy	no console then?	00:41
CosmoHill	nope	00:41
CosmoHill	xterm used x11	00:41
autoguy	yes I meant a non-X console. anyway, good that you got it going	00:42
CosmoHill	ctrl + alt + F# freezes the computer	00:42
CosmoHill	nope	00:42
CosmoHill	gnome, mobin and xterm	00:42
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autoguy	Now you can run fun stuff like compiz	00:42
CosmoHill	the interface is a lot faster and smoother	00:43
CosmoHill	however, a lot of things aren't working any more	00:43
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autoguy	:(	00:43
CosmoHill	gonna try gnome	00:43
autoguy	isn't that the default? or are you running kubuntu	00:44
CosmoHill	ubuntu moblin remix	00:44
autoguy	Oh yeah you said so	00:44
autoguy	I'm getting tired in the little head	00:44
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CosmoHill	http://black-flag.co.uk/files/broken-ubuntumolbin.jpg	00:48
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Stskeeps	everyone likes a clean slate	00:50
Stskeeps	:P	00:50
CosmoHill	hehe	00:50
CosmoHill	it should display a load of stuff	00:50
CosmoHill	the internet has the top and bottom bit, the middle is missin	00:50
CosmoHill	so i can have a slow laggy interface that works	00:51
CosmoHill	or a fast smooth one that has most of it missing	00:51
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CosmoHill	it would be very useful at night, walking to the bathroom it could light you way	00:52
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CosmoHill	oo oo oo	00:57
CosmoHill	i have file manager	00:57
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CosmoHill	the top bar is broken, the applications themselfs seems to work	01:00
jku	CosmoHill, are you running a trunk build?	01:01
CosmoHill	i'll find a link	01:01
CosmoHill	http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/releases/	01:01
jku	those can be a bit rough...	01:01
jku	oh, well...	01:01
jku	should be a release version then :)	01:01
ali1234	CosmoHill: that's probably quite out of date	01:03
CosmoHill	the top bar is broke, rest seems to work	01:04
CosmoHill	ffs >.<	01:04
autoguy	The ubuntu remix runs without the SSE3 perhaps?!?	01:06
CosmoHill	no idea	01:06
autoguy	Here's me trying...	01:06
CosmoHill	my laptop specs: intel c2d p7350 2.0Ghz, Nvidia 9300m, 2 x 2GB DDR2	01:07
autoguy	Yes well core2duo surely has the sse3 I think. Let me check wikipedia	01:07
autoguy	P7350 is Penryn family, they all have sse3 and more	01:09
CosmoHill	but not VT :(	01:09
autoguy	it's only my old crappy celeron m machine that doesn't	01:09
autoguy	Oh you're right, the p7350 seems to be an exception for VT	01:09
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CosmoHill	anyone know the name of the progam at the top	01:11
CosmoHill	with the icons and time on	01:11
autoguy	The awesome bar? :)	01:11
autoguy	No I don't know it	01:11
CosmoHill	zones work	01:12
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CosmoHill	gotcha	01:19
CosmoHill	moblin-pannel-*	01:20
autoguy	ubuntu moblin remix doesn't have the moblin boot menu does it?	01:21
autoguy	I mean the install media	01:21
CosmoHill	how do you mean?	01:22
autoguy	It has an "ubuntu" boot menu	01:22
CosmoHill	when you instead the disk and you have the "boot without installing" etc?	01:22
autoguy	I think I failed in writing it to the usb stick I just had moblin on before	01:22
autoguy	cause the boot menu looks the same with choices like "install moblin linux"	01:23
CosmoHill	it looks like ubuntu but with "moblin remix" added to text	01:23
autoguy	yeah, I need to redo this	01:23
CosmoHill	i think i do too	01:23
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autoguy	that's better. it was too quick last time, only about 30seconds.	01:26
autoguy	no usb stick writes 600 megs in that time	01:26
CosmoHill	http://xkcd.com/533/	01:26
CosmoHill	not what i was looking for but it will do	01:26
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arjan	ubuntu remix is not moblin really though	01:27
arjan	at least, don't use it as an indication of what moblin is like, or meego	01:27
CosmoHill	it's going to be formatted	01:28
autoguy	no that's probably true.	01:28
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autoguy	arjan: I only have my eee available and I can't run moblin so I was inspired to try the remix mostly for fun.	01:29
autoguy	inspired by CosmoHill that is	01:29
arjan	don't let me stop you ;)	01:29
* CosmoHill screams		01:29
autoguy	***CosmoHill should relax a bit	01:29
CosmoHill	how ever pissed off computers can make me, it's nothing compared to my best friends	01:31
jhkhj	*sigh	01:31
* CosmoHill has given up and will now chill		01:32
autoguy	CosmoHill: Yikes, hope that was a joke	01:32
CosmoHill	on a side note i kinda exploded on anorter channel	01:32
CosmoHill	the me screaming? yeah	01:32
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autoguy	the comment about your friends pissing you off even more than computers	01:32
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CosmoHill	computers piss me off and stuff	01:33
CosmoHill	but only my best friends can tell me something that will make me going into a fit of rage	01:33
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autoguy	it's all in managing expectations my friend	01:33
autoguy	you know you choose your own feelings right? I know that's not what one wants to hear when one is pissed off though.	01:34
CosmoHill	i'm fine now	01:34
autoguy	good!	01:34
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arjan	CosmoHill: also.. learning to count a little to calm down, or taking a short walk... works for me ;)	01:36
* CosmoHill looks at the log demons and shakes fist		01:38
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autoguy	My USB boot media didn't boot. Third try with another stick...	01:39
CosmoHill	autoguy: ubunutu moblinx remix	01:40
CosmoHill	?	01:40
autoguy	yes	01:40
CosmoHill	yeah i tried that, it needs to be a CD	01:40
autoguy	No CD on the netbook :(	01:40
autoguy	unless I drag out my... oh I don't even want to think about it	01:41
CosmoHill	that does seem to be a problem with a netbook version	01:41
CosmoHill	i have no working CD drive in my powerbook :(	01:41
arjan	weird	01:41
arjan	moblin itself can be both a cd and a usb stick	01:41
arjan	same image	01:41
arjan	wonder why ubuntu isn't like that	01:41
autoguy	yeah moblin was easy to just write to the stick, it just didn't run all the way...	01:42
autoguy	i.e. writing and booting ok, didn't boot all the way	01:42
CosmoHill	would meego support nvidia?	01:44
jku	autoguy, which eee is that?	01:44
autoguy	I have a IDE to USB interface and an old DVD drive somewhere but I really don't want to go and fetch it but maybe I have to.	01:44
autoguy	jku: It's a pretty old one, 900, the first gen I think	01:44
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autoguy	It's not supposed to work, no SSE3 support	01:45
jku	right, Celeron	01:45
autoguy	yes	01:45
lcuk	what is the sse3 support required for?	01:46
arjan	CosmoHill: nouveau is not quite mature	01:46
arjan	lcuk: for floating point stuff	01:46
lcuk	why such an exclusionary dependency on x86 code?	01:47
arjan	lcuk: we use ssse3 instead of x87	01:47
arjan	since it's a lot faster than x87	01:47
lcuk	yeah, what for	01:47
arjan	(think "arm neon")	01:47
lcuk	i know that it can make things faster	01:47
lcuk	but what kinds of things	01:47
arjan	floating poinmt	01:47
lcuk	and is it such a bad thing that its not there	01:47
lcuk	yes arjan	01:47
arjan	anywhere where in C you write "double"	01:47
lcuk	ive had floating point since 486 or whatever	01:47
arjan	which is for all kinds of graphical stuff etc	01:48
lcuk	but what specific benefit requires sse	01:48
arjan	yeah and that all is x87	01:48
arjan	x87 is rather slow	01:48
lcuk	ie, why cant you just accept any normal laptop	01:48
arjan	sse is much faster (much easier programming model for the compiler)	01:48
arjan	lcuk: any normal laptop has ssse3	01:48
arjan	core2 has it, and anything after that	01:48
lcuk	ok, if it were emulated (supposing such a thing could happen) which part of the system would i notice it was unrealonably bad	01:49
arjan	lots of graphical stuff	01:49
arjan	both qt and clutter use it all over	01:49
CosmoHill	i seem to always have intel	01:49
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lcuk	rightm so graphics in clutter needs uber double precision math	01:50
arjan	it's not about uber double precision	01:50
lcuk	yet clutter on the arm afaik doesnt have much neon opts	01:50
lcuk	and works	01:50
arjan	it's about more than integers	01:50
arjan	clutter on arm uses floating point too	01:50
lcuk	i didnt say that	01:50
lcuk	i said it doesnt have much in the way of neon opts (at least that i know)	01:51
arjan	only what the compiler uses	01:51
lcuk	im just wondering why you need to set the barrier to enforce sse	01:51
lcuk	ok	01:51
arjan	on x86, the compiler automatically uses sse for floating point if you tell it you have a cpu that has sse	01:51
lcuk	so i will be able to recompile meego for other arches	01:51
CosmoHill	-mtune=native	01:51
lcuk	without sse	01:51
arjan	it'll take a while	01:52
arjan	but yeah you can	01:52
arjan	you can moblin as well	01:52
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lcuk	has anyone tried it?	01:52
lcuk	and published results	01:52
lcuk	ie moblin on amd	01:52
lcuk	for instance	01:52
* CosmoHill daydreams of a working cluster with distcc		01:52
ali1234	btw it isn't sse3 that is missing from amd but ssse3 (note extra s)	01:53
ali1234	i'm not really sure what the difference is	01:53
lcuk	i am just wondering what the barrier of entry is, since compiling for x86 suddenly became something very specific	01:53
arjan	newer amd has ssse3 too	01:54
ali1234	how much newer?	01:54
arjan	lcuk: all distros draw a line somewhere	01:54
ali1234	pehnom 2 doesn't	01:54
ali1234	*phenom	01:54
arjan	fedora is drawing it at pentium II now for example	01:54
lcuk	arjan, but i cant use p3/p4 can i?	01:54
lcuk	or anything not recent	01:54
arjan	debian might draw it at 486	01:54
arjan	it's core2 or later	01:54
arjan	so 2006	01:54
arjan	that's 4 years.	01:54
lcuk	i dnuno how old my x41 is	01:55
ali1234	cat /proc/cpuinfo	01:55
CosmoHill	ubunutu 9.04 uses i486 iirc	01:55
CosmoHill	glibc dropped i386 support	01:55
ali1234	will tell you all extensions your cpu supports	01:56
lcuk	Pentium M 1.4/1.5	01:56
ali1234	mine only has sse, sse2 and sse4a	01:56
lcuk	which i run happily at 600mhz	01:56
ali1234	no ssse3 for you then	01:56
lcuk	(would run slower, but for the minimum cpu frequency in ubuntu	01:56
lcuk	right	01:56
lcuk	so i cant try moblin on i	01:56
lcuk	t	01:56
ali1234	maybe ubuntu moblin remix :)	01:57
CosmoHill	if I'm right, you're talking about the optimations used at compile time?	01:57
arjan	ali1234: normally if you have sse4a you have ssse3 too	01:57
arjan	CosmoHill: yup	01:57
lcuk	whats the ubuntu remix?	01:57
CosmoHill	shite	01:57
CosmoHill	er i mean	01:57
lcuk	is that a faster version of moblin?	01:57
CosmoHill	<.<	01:57
CosmoHill	>.>	01:57
arjan	lcuk: no	01:57
CosmoHill	nope	01:57
arjan	lcuk: it's ubuntu with a few moblin UI packages on top	01:57
ali1234	lcuk: it's canonical's version of moblin	01:57
CosmoHill	it's ubuntu with the mobin GUI	01:57
lcuk	does it run the moblin ui ontop of ubuntu?	01:57
CosmoHill	iirc	01:57
lcuk	right	01:57
lcuk	with debs?	01:58
lcuk	or mixed	01:58
ali1234	debs	01:58
arjan	debs	01:58
CosmoHill	yay, i learnt something	01:58
ali1234	all rebuilt and repackaged	01:58
lcuk	so moblin apps are compatible with it	01:58
arjan	it's not moblin as such, it's ony a few UI apps	01:58
lcuk	(if repackaged)	01:58
CosmoHill	should be	01:58
arjan	lcuk: nice theory, in practice not so ;(	01:58
ali1234	arjan: so you reckon i have ssse3? then i must have some virtualbox problem	01:58
lcuk	api compatible	01:58
arjan	ali1234: sse4a is NHM... NHM has SSSE3 for sure	01:58
lcuk	what is moblin then if not a few ui apps?	01:58
ali1234	i will try booting for real tomorrow	01:58
arjan	lcuk: it's a whole OS	01:58
CosmoHill	guys, let me get this right, moblin requires sse3, if you don't have that you could recompile moblin for say a P3	01:59
arjan	lcuk: the UI is only a part of the experience/what moblin is	01:59
lcuk	does the ubuntu one look/feel the same?	01:59
lcuk	because it has same ui	01:59
arjan	lcuk: look yes, feel.. mostly	01:59
CosmoHill	moblin would support any x86 processor you compiled it from	01:59
lcuk	is there anything specifically it wouldnt be able to do?	01:59
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arjan	lcuk: it's just a little different	02:00
lcuk	in what way though, if it runs the same things?	02:00
lcuk	and is api compatible	02:00
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arjan	it does not have the whole same middleware	02:00
arjan	only the same UI libs	02:00
arjan	there's more to app compatibility than the high level ui stuff	02:01
lcuk	arjan, yes, i am aware of that	02:01
CosmoHill	arjan: if i recompiled moblin myself, i could get it to run on any x86 processor (>=i486) i wanted to, right?	02:01
arjan	CosmoHill: yeah	02:01
CosmoHill	lcuk: there you go :)	02:01
arjan	CosmoHill: just you might not get the same performance if you had a newer processor	02:01
lcuk	would it be feasible for intel themselves to construct a build for other intel machines	02:02
lcuk	so i could test it	02:02
arjan	since compiling for an older cpu means you don't use features/instructions of the newer cpus	02:02
lcuk	thats ok	02:02
lcuk	i dont need those	02:02
lcuk	but i have intel workable laptops here	02:02
lcuk	that you say are incompatible with current things, but for a recompile	02:02
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lcuk	so, could you investigate whether we can have moblin/meego on our laptops	02:03
lcuk	from a community request point of view	02:03
autoguy	Just incompatible with what is offered as a binary	02:03
CosmoHill	lcuk: moblin is compiled with sse3 and therefore won't run on anything without it	02:03
autoguy	...is the conclusion of all this right?	02:03
ShadowJK	ssse3	02:03
arjan	lcuk: define laptops... anything 2006 and later ought to be fine	02:03
CosmoHill	like if i compiled for an i686 i couldn't run it on a i586 or i486	02:03
lcuk	arjan, ibm lenovo x41	02:04
ali1234	CosmoHill: actually you can, it is more complicated than that	02:04
lcuk	pentium m	02:04
lcuk	millions(billions) were sold	02:04
arjan	I know we sold many of those in 2004/2005 ;)	02:04
lcuk	not that model laptop, but the chip	02:04
ali1234	CosmoHill: gcc has two options: -mtune and -march: the first tunes for a specific processor while keeping compatibility with others, the second one drops compatibility on older processors	02:04
arjan	i had one of those for the longest time myself actually	02:04
lcuk	those are in circulation in geeks bedrooms everywhere	02:04
ali1234	CosmoHill: at least i think it is that way round, been a while since i used it	02:04
CosmoHill	ah i didn't know what	02:05
lcuk	not targeting moblin which would work on it	02:05
lcuk	without a good reason	02:05
lcuk	is silly	02:05
lcuk	it would allow people to have a moblin install	02:05
arjan	lcuk: as long as you keep ignoring "performance" as a good reason yeah there is no reason	02:05
lcuk	to help	02:05
ali1234	CosmoHill: also you don't need everything to be using the same options: as long as your cpu supports it, it will run, even if the rest of the userland and kernel was compiled with different options	02:05
* CosmoHill wonders why he's not been taught this before		02:06
ShadowJK	I didn't know gcc was able to generate sensible sse* code these days, that's a huge improvement :)	02:06
lcuk	arjan,	02:06
lcuk	we run nokia tablets	02:06
arjan	ShadowJK: at least for normal floating piont stuff it can	02:06
ali1234	CosmoHill: so for example, what debian does, is compile everything for lowest common denominator, then offer optimized binaries for processor intensive packages	02:06
lcuk	in 600mhz MAX	02:06
lcuk	the old tablets had 400mhz	02:06
ali1234	CosmoHill: cos you never asked?	02:06
arjan	lcuk: no matter what speed your cpu is, do you really want to leave 20% or so on the table?	02:06
lcuk	performance comes best when you have an uphill struggle	02:06
arjan	answer for moblin has been "not"	02:06
lcuk	throwing hardware at a problem does nothing	02:07
lcuk	we have clutter ui on n900	02:07
lcuk	much less horsepower than your new swanky chips	02:07
ShadowJK	MPlayer gained a good 40% boost when compiled for armv7+neon compared to armv6 :)	02:07
ali1234	i agree. design for half the power you have, then it wont die the first time someone tries to run two programs at the same time	02:08
lcuk	now, imagine if people optimized moblin to run well on low power/speed chips	02:08
lcuk	it also means that when new chips come out or its run on faster the experience is better	02:08
lcuk	and with the numbers of chips that intel has sold	02:09
lcuk	for every step backwards you go	02:09
arjan	and also, 20% more performance also means lower power	02:09
ShadowJK	Those ibm/lenovo laptops are an aberration, laptops aren't supposed to live longer than a year :D	02:09
autoguy	lcuk: yes, but tuning for sse3 (or whatever chip) is the right thing to do	02:09
arjan	since those are the same (run longer for the same work -> cost more power)	02:09
autoguy	only you could offer alternative binaries for other architectures	02:09
lcuk	autoguy, im not saying its not. you should use every weapon in your arsenal	02:09
arjan	is maemo compiled for armv6 or v7 ?	02:09
ali1234	it is optimized for the arm it runs on	02:10
ShadowJK	arjan, basically compiled for the device it comes with	02:10
ShadowJK	(and not sanely installable elsewhere)	02:10
ali1234	right, i tried it once - didn't work well	02:11
ali1234	"illegal instruction" errors everywhere	02:11
lcuk	ShadowJK, actually	02:11
autoguy	Good discussion and good of you to challenge this lcuk. I draw the conclusion that setting up binary builds for other, and older, architectures is doable and just hasn't been done by the intel-backed project (yet). Of course intel should be in the business of selling new hardware... as is Nokia...	02:11
lcuk	binaries build on my n810 work on my n900	02:11
ShadowJK	lcuk, yes that works	02:12
arjan	autoguy: the cost of another set of builds is not miniscule	02:12
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lcuk	autoguy :)	02:12
* CosmoHill backreads		02:12
arjan	think "10 to 20 servers", including hosting and power etc	02:12
lcuk	arjan, if intel themselves do not have the silicon on hand to build servers	02:12
autoguy	arjan: no I can imagine. We're just challenging the situation, and getting good answers I think	02:12
lcuk	i dont know who does	02:12
ali1234	i'm sure someone will build it	02:13
ShadowJK	armv7 has most of the armv6 stuff too :D	02:13
lcuk	dont tell me that a build machine cannot exist	02:13
ShadowJK	Well, gentoo freaks build their entire distro all the time ;-)	02:13
lcuk	obs is setup to allow this sort of stuff	02:13
arjan	it can exist.	02:13
lcuk	infact	02:13
autoguy	lcuk is not letting up. LOL...	02:13
arjan	all you need to provide is about 10 to 20 servers, including power and connectivity	02:13
lcuk	mer builds on obs for multi arch	02:13
CosmoHill	autoguy: so i could compile a program that would use ss{,s}3 optimisation if the processor supported it, but if it didn't it would still work?	02:14
arjan	and since this needs to be outside our building, it needs to be some data center	02:14
ShadowJK	It took 2-3 days or something for that lunatic jebba to compile all of debian for N900..	02:14
ali1234	and debian is huge	02:14
arjan	CosmoHill: no you can't do that, not really at least	02:14
lcuk	the same servers run multiple builds	02:14
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autoguy	CosmoHill: No I didn't mean that	02:14
ShadowJK	but he had a "good relationship" with his provider I believe :)	02:14
autoguy	You need to provide different builds	02:14
CosmoHill	dammit	02:14
lcuk	its just a ticky box on obs or something	02:14
arjan	CosmoHill: it just means that you don't use the instructions at all	02:14
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lcuk	"(*) Old Intel chips"	02:14
arjan	lcuk: you still need the build capacity	02:14
arjan	you can't build twice the amount, and think it'll take the same amount of time on the same amount of machines	02:15
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lcuk	arjan, mer builds for multi arch now, i know damned well that maemo does the same, most big open source operations do	02:15
ali1234	arjan: there's nothing to stop someone doing a one off port of moblin 2.1 for 486+ though, right?	02:15
arjan	ali1234: absolutely nothing	02:15
ali1234	what would i need for build system?	02:16
arjan	ali1234: just everyone who complains loudly wants us to do the work and spend the money	02:16
ali1234	(software wise)	02:16
arjan	ali1234: I would suggest something beefy; but otherwise obs or mock or .. or .. all will work	02:16
lcuk	arjan, i want to run your intel operating system on my intel powered lapttop	02:16
ShadowJK	lcuk, from what I've seen in #mer, they need careful planning to not cause week of delay if a qt recompile comes up :)	02:16
lcuk	i want to help	02:16
ali1234	arjan: considering that i have never built a rpm from source before.. where do i start?	02:17
CosmoHill	arjan: did you compile moblin on fast awesome machines	02:17
arjan	ali1234: google for "mock"	02:17
CosmoHill	like your 48 core beast?	02:17
arjan	CosmoHill: we have like 20 to 30 nehalem servers	02:17
* CosmoHill drools		02:17
arjan	in our build farm	02:17
arjan	most of them use intel ssd's for storage	02:17
CosmoHill	well they wouldn't use OCZ would they :p	02:18
lcuk	the maemo build farm consists of a pair of n800s	02:19
autoguy	lol	02:19
lcuk	:D	02:19
CosmoHill	haha	02:19
ShadowJK	no I think that's luke-jr's buildfarm..	02:19
* lcuk is jesting, theres some incredible power somewhere		02:19
CosmoHill	lcuk: of course	02:19
CosmoHill	I'd shoot someone who thought you where being serious	02:19
CosmoHill	maybe you guys can help m,e	02:20
CosmoHill	what looks shiney on a cluster that you could show 14~18 year olds	02:20
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autoguy	Yay! Ubuntu moblin remix now booted on my Celeron M. So there!	02:22
CosmoHill	what graphics card?	02:22
autoguy	Hang on I have to google that. It's Intel chips iirc	02:22
ShadowJK	Those Celeron M things and Centrino were sold in insane quantities.. the first affordable laptops after an era of P-4M with huge batteries :-)	02:22
CosmoHill	autoguy: wikipedia is goos	02:23
CosmoHill	good	02:23
autoguy	Intel GMA 900 it seems	02:23
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arjan	yeah I had a Pentium M for like 3 years	02:23
arjan	the backlight led went out 3 years and one week after I got it	02:23
CosmoHill	I have two laptops	02:23
arjan	(and yes I had exactly 3 years of warranty)	02:24
CosmoHill	that sucks	02:24
CosmoHill	i had my laptop fixed	02:24
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CosmoHill	I got my warrated extended a bit cos they fitted some faulty parts a few days before it expired	02:24
autoguy	CosmoHill: So it works off usb stick after all	02:25
CosmoHill	cools	02:25
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lcuk	time to vanish anyway :)	02:26
CosmoHill	cyas	02:26
lcuk	gnite arjan CosmoHill autoguy :) nice convo	02:26
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timeless_mbp	arjan: warranty was well designed :)	02:26
autoguy	agree. sleep tight	02:26
CosmoHill	:)	02:26
CosmoHill	ooo, dodgeball	02:28
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CosmoHill	my first laptop was a 2005 powerbook :)	02:32
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CosmoHill	on it now actually	02:34
GeneralAntilles	The 2005s were not built to last.	02:34
CosmoHill	i know :(	02:34
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CosmoHill	good thing we bought the extended warranty	02:35
* GeneralAntilles just got Apple to replace his 2004 G5 with a Mac Pro		02:35
GeneralAntilles	No warranty, woo!	02:35
CosmoHill	...	02:35
CosmoHill	how the hell	02:35
GeneralAntilles	Liquid cooling leaked	02:35
GeneralAntilles	They agreed to do a no-cost repair	02:36
CosmoHill	and you can get apple to do that?	02:36
GeneralAntilles	The repair failed	02:36
GeneralAntilles	So I got a new Mac Pro. :P	02:36
arjan	good deal	02:36
* CosmoHill bows		02:36
CosmoHill	my friend's powermac did the same	02:36
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GeneralAntilles	That took about 6 months all told and about a dozen calls to top-tier customer support.	02:37
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CosmoHill	i should have gotten apple to replace my powerbook	02:40
CosmoHill	GeneralAntilles: you the original owner of the powermac?	02:41
CosmoHill	3 logic boards, 2 screens and 1 hard drive	02:44
CosmoHill	each counts as a major fault, 3 major faults and you're entitled to a replacement	02:44
CosmoHill	i wonder if i could get meego working on my powerbook	02:45
* CosmoHill wonders who did the meego website		02:47
monoceros	Hi all! I opened an italian site entirely dedicated to Meego ... www.meegoIT.com :D It arises from a rib of maemoIT.org :D	02:48
ali1234	CosmoHill: it's listed on the who's who page, can't remember off hand	02:49
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CosmoHill	thanks ali1234	02:49
ali1234	that might just be the maintainer though, dunno	02:49
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arjan	CosmoHill: I hope at this piont it's a mix of maemo and moblin folks	02:53
CosmoHill	cos it's a pretty site and i might steal some design ideas for my assignment	02:53
koupsa	monoceros: i don't speak italian but it look nice	02:53
CosmoHill	monoceros: cool	02:54
monoceros	koupsa, CosmoHill thanks :D	02:55
CosmoHill	looks like the website might have been made by two meamo and two moblin developers	02:56
autoguy	A total mess then?	02:58
autoguy	:D	02:59
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ali1234	heh	02:59
CosmoHill	actually no	02:59
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CosmoHill	it has multiple "devlopers"	02:59
CosmoHill	only one designer	02:59
ali1234	setresuid(0, 0, 0) <- that's trying to become root right? why is mock doing that?	03:00
ali1234	funnily enough it failed	03:00
ali1234	the instructions say not to even run it as my normal user... isn't that kind of redundant if it wants root access anyway?	03:01
CosmoHill	suid allows a normal user to run a program as root?	03:03
CosmoHill	if that's what you want, try "chmod +s"	03:03
ali1234	heh, i just installed mock and tried to use it	03:03
ali1234	it fails with EPERM because it wants to become root	03:04
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arjan	it does chroot somewhere	03:12
arjan	which needs root	03:12
ali1234	true	03:14
ali1234	i can;t get it to work.. if i run it as root, it makes the chroot and then drops root and subsequently can't write to the directory it just made	03:15
ali1234	if i don't run it as root, it fails to get root access	03:15
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, yeah.	03:16
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, only took them 4 months to ship it to me originally, too. . . .	03:16
CosmoHill	2 weeks after i got mine the DDR2 version came out	03:16
CosmoHill	and the upgrades i paid extra for became standard	03:17
GeneralAntilles	lol	03:17
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, that's why you always check MacRumor's buying guide before a purchase. ;)	03:17
CosmoHill	first and only mac I've bought	03:17
GeneralAntilles	There's things are pretty predictably cyclical. ;)	03:17
GeneralAntilles	Ah	03:17
CosmoHill	I've been given 3 powermacs tho :D	03:18
CosmoHill	i do love the way apple go "up yours" to standards	03:18
GeneralAntilles	My G5 was a beast in its day	03:20
GeneralAntilles	This Nehalem rig just completely blows it out of the water, though.	03:20
GeneralAntilles	Kinda sad	03:20
CosmoHill	technically it still is a beast	03:20
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CosmoHill	I got a G4 400Mhz sawtooth, G4 733Mhz Quicksilver and a G4 2 x 1.25Ghz MMD	03:21
CosmoHill	all for free	03:22
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CosmoHill	first one was good but psu seems to have gone	03:22
CosmoHill	2nd one was given with a failed psu	03:22
CosmoHill	3rd one blow up when i plugged it in	03:23
ali1234	looks like i am going to have to build a fedora chroot just to to run mock	03:24
ali1234	ironic considering building fedora chroots is it's entire purpose	03:25
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GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, still got my 867MHz Quicksilver	03:29
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, and a 1.8GHz G5 that I was given somewhere along the line.	03:29
CosmoHill	i still have them	03:29
CosmoHill	i'm a horder	03:29
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	03:30
CosmoHill	I wired up ATX to apple PSU adapters for them	03:30
CosmoHill	so my quicksilver works with a normal ATX PSU	03:30
CosmoHill	only issue is the cooling fan and power connector, so I've removed the plastic from the back	03:30
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CosmoHill	my MDD mobo failed :(	03:31
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GeneralAntilles	What a stupid redesign the MDD was	03:34
* CosmoHill stabs netgear		03:35
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CosmoHill	i turn it on, seconds later the cooling fans go on full speed	03:38
CosmoHill	the end :(	03:38
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CosmoHill	it would have been the best computer i owned, and great for cross-lfs	03:40
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CosmoHill	well I'm off to bed	04:08
CosmoHill	cyas	04:09
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th0br0	good morning	10:57
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th0br0	nice blogpost Stskeeps :) thumbs up	11:04
Stskeeps	which one of them?	11:06
th0br0	the one about meego and maemo 6 and the n900	11:07
Stskeeps	ah, yes	11:07
th0br0	oh that was a talk post, duh :S	11:07
arachnist	Stskeeps: where's your blog? (url)	11:08
Stskeeps	mer-project.blogspot.com	11:08
Stskeeps	th0br0: it was already hinted at in my blog :)	11:08
th0br0	:)	11:08
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th0br0	it's so quiet in here nowadays :(	11:18
th0br0	but then, that's the weekend i guess	11:18
Stskeeps	yeah, or people need to rest after a hectic week	11:19
th0br0	true :)	11:19
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Jaffa	Morning, all	12:28
Stskeeps	morn jaffa	12:30
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dl9pf_	morning !	12:43
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ScriptRipper	moin	12:58
ScriptRipper	dl9pf_	12:58
dl9pf_	hi ScriptRipper!	12:59
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CosmoHill	i may have accidently told some of my friends about this channel	13:36
Stskeeps	as long as they'll contribute..	13:37
Stskeeps	:P	13:37
CosmoHill	does adding to the swear jar count?	13:38
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Stskeeps	if it does not in any way contain the words "rpm" or "deb"..	13:38
Stskeeps	:P	13:38
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CosmoHill	"windows"?	13:40
CosmoHill	I do get some fanboys who bitch about windows and erm, slag it off	13:40
CosmoHill	i duno how to reword that last bit	13:40
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CosmoHill	two more brits	13:41
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CosmoHill	one less...	13:42
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th0br0	:P CosmoHill oh it will be funny to see them. after all, they'll be utterly defeated ;)	13:45
* Stskeeps is spending some time reading up on .rpm		13:46
Stskeeps	so far i don't see any functionality difference in dpkg and rpm	13:46
Stskeeps	:P	13:46
Stskeeps	even some things that are easier with rpm	13:46
Stskeeps	i can imagine building tools around it with ease	13:46
CosmoHill	I did a race between dpkg and rpm	13:46
th0br0	Stskeeps: there isn't much afaik. at least no big difference to the average packager	13:46
Stskeeps	th0br0: well, reading "max rpm" book atm	13:47
th0br0	have fun :) i guess i should do sth similar if i want to help with the repository wg ...	13:47
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Stskeeps	and i can already see features that are immensely useful for building tools with	13:48
Stskeeps	rpm -qa --queryformat for instance	13:48
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: I'VE BUILD RPMS	13:48
CosmoHill	and accidently pressed caps lock	13:48
th0br0	and misspelled built? ;)	13:48
CosmoHill	that too	13:48
Stskeeps	i don't know a shred of .spec, so it's time to learn	13:48
CosmoHill	I'm going for the high score	13:48
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: I'll help you	13:48
muep	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/BuildingPackagesGuide - I learned with this, and I still thinnk it is a quite nice walkthrough of the basic stuff	13:49
th0br0	yeah Stskeeps :) it is easy though. feel free to ask	13:49
Stskeeps	muep: thanks	13:49
th0br0	muep: indeed, it's pretty useful.	13:49
CosmoHill	http://download.bluesquarelinux.co.uk/felix/SPECS/ << all the one's i've written	13:49
leinir	there's a really nice learning curve on .spec authoring, yeah :)	13:49
Stskeeps	i'm thinking of a 'reading guide for future meego contributors' blog post so	13:49
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th0br0	haha, they wouldn't pass fedora's "harsh" packaging guidelines CosmoHill	13:50
CosmoHill	probably not	13:50
CosmoHill	http://download.bluesquarelinux.co.uk/felix/SPECS/template.spec	13:50
th0br0	but ... i think that it would be good for meego to adapt at least some of the fedora packaging guidelines ... especially stuff like "no duplication of (system) libraries" should be important	13:50
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CosmoHill	mwhahahah	13:50
thiago_home	huh? Why would anyone duplicate libraries?	13:50
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CosmoHill	why would 20 people suddenly leave the channel?	13:51
thiago_home	they wouldn't	13:51
Stskeeps	netsplit	13:51
th0br0	thiago_home: there are quite a number of ... applications out there that got some (most times even non-changed) forks of some version of this library in their release packages against which they build.	13:51
th0br0	CosmoHill: netsplit	13:51
damien_l	let's say that someone wants Qt with rtti and another one with rtti	13:52
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thiago_home	if Qt is deployed with all features enabled, there's no reason to duplicate	13:52
thiago_home	if however, the system version is arbitrarily crippled (like the PDF rendering engine being disabled), then I can understand	13:53
damien_l	thiago_home: even ABI incompatible build flag?	13:53
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muep	but some software still includes (usually a bit smaller than Qt) libraries within their source trees	13:53
damien_l	IIRC rtti enabled/disabled changes the mangling	13:53
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damien_l	or at least, it used to	13:53
thiago_home	damien_l: no, it doesn't	13:53
muep	and sometimes the included library copies are modified	13:53
th0br0	thiago_home: that's true.	13:53
thiago_home	the only thing that changes ABI is turning features off.	13:53
thiago_home	and that's actually API	13:53
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thiago_home	well, in Qt, that is	13:54
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CosmoHill	welcome back people of the night	13:54
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thiago_home	in other projects, it could happen, I see	13:54
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thiago_home	anyway, not duplicating libraries helps in security upgrades	13:55
thiago_home	for example, zlib	13:55
th0br0	besides, given that our free space is rather limited, this should be a must imho	13:56
thiago_home	yup	13:56
CosmoHill	when i said I made RPMS i never meantioned the quaility	13:56
th0br0	yeah thiago_home, that's part of fedora's idea behind that, too	13:56
th0br0	CosmoHill: no offense meant there, just some comparison ;)	13:56
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* CosmoHill blinks		13:58
CosmoHill	this episode is weird	13:59
CosmoHill	I'm wondering what I've missed	13:59
th0br0	what are you watching?	13:59
CosmoHill	Skins	13:59
th0br0	teen drama, duh	13:59
th0br0	however, The controversial plotline explores issues including narcissism, dysfunctional families, personality disorders, substance abuse, sexuality, teenage pregnancy, disability, suicide and death.... sounds interesting	14:00
th0br0	;)	14:00
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CosmoHill	dinner table sense, 10~12 year old boy wearing address and wants to "f##k" his older sister's girlfriend	14:00
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th0br0	^^	14:02
CosmoHill	you from the uk?	14:02
th0br0	germany	14:02
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th0br0	Stskeeps: at what time is that meeting on wednesday again?	14:06
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Stskeeps	the community one or which one?	14:10
timeless_mbp	CosmoHill: 'a dress', not 'address'	14:11
CosmoHill	realised that	14:12
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Stskeeps	th0br0: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?day=20&month=2&year=2010&p2=101&p3=224&p4=43&iv=0	14:13
th0br0	thanks Stskeeps :)	14:14
Stskeeps	i will probably just be looking from the sideline as i'll go to polish classes at that hour :P	14:14
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th0br0	oh :)	14:17
th0br0	where're you from?	14:17
Stskeeps	denmark, living in poland	14:17
th0br0	ah ok.	14:17
Stskeeps	tax's good here for contracting work ;)	14:18
* RST38h moos approvingly		14:18
Stskeeps	and cost of food is 1/4th of danish :P	14:18
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CosmoHill	there's just been a crash in the winter olimpics	14:24
CosmoHill	that is very scary	14:25
Stskeeps	countdown till it is on youtube..	14:25
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CosmoHill	it looks scary as hell	14:29
CosmoHill	technically they crossed the finish line	14:31
Stskeeps	[citation needed, bw]	14:31
Stskeeps	btw	14:31
CosmoHill	corner 13 too	14:33
frals	who crashed?	14:33
CosmoHill	canada	14:33
CosmoHill	lol, speed skating refs	14:36
CosmoHill	ice skates + suit = lol	14:36
th0br0	huh? gotta find some yt vid of that	14:37
* leinir much preffers the suits the rubbers wear... :)		14:38
CosmoHill	i duno if what i am watching is live or not	14:38
th0br0	were you talking about the luge crash?	14:39
CosmoHill	it says highlights so i don't think so	14:39
CosmoHill	th0br0: yes	14:39
th0br0	ah no that was 6 days ago	14:39
CosmoHill	no	14:39
th0br0	he died.	14:39
CosmoHill	2 man bobslide	14:39
th0br0	huh, ok.	14:39
CosmoHill	rip that guy	14:39
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villemv	moblin doesn't support nvidia, joy	14:53
villemv	or ati	14:53
CosmoHill	i know :(	14:54
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CosmoHill	i tried the ubuntu moblin remix, managed to install the nvidia driversw and the UI broke	14:55
damien_l	which NVidia drivers, the proprietary ?	14:56
CosmoHill	yep	14:57
CosmoHill	the moblin panel seems to be broken	14:57
CosmoHill	hold on	14:57
CosmoHill	http://black-flag.co.uk/files/broken-ubuntumolbin.jpg	14:57
damien_l	indeed, does look broken	14:57
CosmoHill	if you put in a memory stick the file manager will pop out	14:58
CosmoHill	up*	14:58
CosmoHill	and you can open videos	14:58
CosmoHill	but it's like taking away the start button from windows	14:58
CosmoHill	also it's a nightmare to install the drivers	15:00
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Stskeeps	okay, .spec actually looks easy and sane	15:37
CosmoHill	:)	15:37
CosmoHill	i personally steal fedora's src.rpm files when i need help	15:38
th0br0	:) CosmoHill	15:39
Jaffa	Stskeeps: use for a version of mud?	15:39
th0br0	Stskeeps: yay! now we should start calling you rpmmaster ;P	15:39
Stskeeps	th0br0: i'm not debmaster, thank god :P	15:39
Jaffa	...to easily speccify upstream tarballs etc	15:39
th0br0	x-fade was, right?	15:39
Stskeeps	nop, jeremiah	15:39
Stskeeps	x-fade is debmaster and head of the team	15:39
Stskeeps	err..	15:39
Stskeeps	web	15:39
Stskeeps	webmaster :P	15:39
CosmoHill	i can read a spec file and understand it	15:40
th0br0	duh, too many names ... not ... able ... to ... fit ... into ... brain ;)	15:40
th0br0	yeah CosmoHill	15:40
CosmoHill	made a basic distro with them	15:40
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Stskeeps	on a sidenote, 'alien' is kinda cool	15:52
Stskeeps	i took a moblin/meego package and it fixes my dependancies automatically to match debian ones	15:53
GeneralAntilles	th0br0, just print out the wiki page. ;)	15:54
th0br0	;) GeneralAntilles	15:54
Stskeeps	i wonder if it will shut up the discussion if i try to take entire moblin, convert into debian packages :P	15:54
th0br0	don't do it!	15:54
th0br0	besides, there already is ubuntu-moblin	15:55
th0br0	which should have the packages already	15:55
* CosmoHill shakes fist at ubuntu-moblin		15:55
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CosmoHill	stats.bluesquarelinux.co.uk	16:02
CosmoHill	:)	16:02
* CosmoHill watches Prince Mononoke		16:02
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th0br0	CosmoHill: Princess!	16:13
CosmoHill	aww, thank you	16:13
CosmoHill	:p	16:13
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Stskeeps	zchydem: did you btw notice if uiemo/orbit 'needs' GL(ES)?	16:34
Terje1	Stskeeps, what do you mean by "means"? It should paint via QPainter, right?	16:37
Stskeeps	you mean needs - I saw that DUI requires at least GLES support, but i'm unsure if orbit does	16:37
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Terje1	Stskeeps, I was told that Orbit have Qt as the only dependency. Haven't verified, though.	16:40
damien_l	DUI does not paint via QPainter but with direct GL call AFAIK	16:40
Stskeeps	Terje1: okay - that was what i was trying to find out :)	16:41
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Terje1	Stskeeps, this http://developer.symbian.org/wiki/images/c/c0/SF230409_Technical_Solution_Description_Orbit.pdf also verifies that they use QPainter. Implicitly (through performance) it requires require at least OpenvG.	16:43
Stskeeps	:nod:	16:43
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Stskeeps	openvg could be interesting as we just gained that on n8x0 :)	16:45
Terje1	Stskeeps, start coding then.	16:45
Terje1	Stskeeps, some new driver for N8x0?	16:46
Stskeeps	Terje1: yes, TI finally released the MBX driver (GLES1.1 and OpenVG) for OMAP2	16:46
Stskeeps	it doesn't render nicely but to a buffer it should be fine	16:46
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CosmoHill	TI = texus instruments?	16:53
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lcuk	yes	16:55
damien_l	well Texas	16:55
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vlj	hi	18:03
vlj	i have a question : will Meego run on desktop pc with nvidia card ? And on a netbook with a poulsbo chipset ?	18:04
vlj	(with intel cpu)	18:04
th0br0	it aims at x86 and arm. we have got no further information afaik	18:05
vlj	ok	18:05
th0br0	in the end, as it uses x.org, it should run with that nvidia card	18:05
vlj	yup but moblin didn't, although it used xorg...	18:05
th0br0	:) idk. you'll have to see how things turn out.	18:06
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vlj	i'm trying to build a meego image with instruction provided on madeo's page	18:06
vlj	but the process seems long	18:06
th0br0	you can't really do that yet i think...	18:06
th0br0	what "madeo's page" are you referring to, the wiki page?	18:07
vlj	www.madeo.co.uk	18:07
th0br0	that's moblin right now though	18:07
jon1012	and on an n900, will it run ? :)	18:07
vlj	so there is a "unofficial" moblin 2.2 build ?	18:08
Stskeeps	th0br0: does rpm and whatever apt replacement support 'pinning'? (prefer a version from a repo even if another repo has another later ver)	18:08
vlj	what do you call pinning ?	18:09
vlj	ho	18:10
th0br0	you can explicitly exclude packages but no pinning as such according to http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-1034.html	18:10
th0br0	bt that might have changed	18:10
vlj	i know that zypper has this capabilities, and it is rpm based	18:10
vlj	but i dont know if it's yum case	18:10
[Rui]	Will it work on devices that don't have a proprietarily accelerated graphics card?	18:11
* [Rui] . o O ( and crawling isn't on my dictionary for "work" ) :)		18:11
th0br0	Stskeeps: rather ask the yum author	18:12
Stskeeps	k	18:12
th0br0	http://yum.baseurl.org/	18:12
CosmoHill	i think meego should run on nvidia because of the ION platform	18:13
vlj	CosmoHill but moblin didnt work on nvidia, even with ION platform	18:14
vlj	that's why i'm asking	18:14
bfree	meego will run on the N900 ... it just might have no fast video drivers, no phone and terrible battery life (i.e. the non-free issues from maemo)	18:14
CosmoHill	meego is more than just mobin	18:14
vlj	the xorg server did launch, but the clutter interface was "blank"	18:15
[Rui]	CosmoHill: nvidia now has free drivers?	18:15
CosmoHill	probably not	18:15
vlj	it seems there is a conflict between nvidia binarie driver and clutter-glx	18:16
vlj	at least on moblin, the gnome shell work perfectly on classic distro	18:16
Stskeeps	bfree: i am not worried. ofono runs on mer, battery management is possible through asking nicely.. video drivers maybe	18:16
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pinchartl	hi	18:17
bfree	as for ION, when Nvidia release good free drivers it should be supported by Meego, until then "someone" will have to convince NVidia to release suitable drivers :-p allegedly nouveau has improved rapidly recently (so 2.6.33+ with the next xorg _might_ work well enough for meego with some chips)	18:17
vlj	bfree there is no hope that nvidia release free driver	18:17
vlj	it's their policy	18:17
muep	but nouveau seems quite promising nowadays	18:18
muep	even though nvidia refuses to help them	18:18
vlj	it's still 5x slower that official binaries	18:18
vlj	and it doesnt support cuda/vdpau/opencl...	18:19
muep	yes, but some hw opengl acceleration is a lot better than no hw opengl acceleration	18:19
bfree	vlj: I wouldn't say never ever, but it looks decade(s) away at best at the moment ;-) odds are meego won't exist by the time NVidia release Free drivers :-p	18:19
vlj	i agree ;)	18:20
muep	clutter and compositing stuff should work just fine with even a bit simplistic driver	18:20
[Rui]	vlj: it's been already more than a decade without any nvidia support, I've given up waiting for them years ago and generally boycott nvidia	18:20
bfree	Stskeeps: ofono + N900 + 2.6.32 (or 33) can make calls?	18:20
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Stskeeps	bfree: User:jebba on wiki.maemo.org has some interesting results	18:21
* muep too avoids nvidia solutions		18:21
vlj	i don't think it worths to boycott nvidia solutions because of lack of free driver	18:21
vlj	i prefer good binary driver as very crappy free one	18:21
vlj	...	18:21
vlj	I bought a netbook with poulsbo	18:21
vlj	and there is almost no driver from intel for this chips	18:22
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muep	I did not ditch windows just to get stuck with another proprietary software vendor	18:22
muep	and there are a lot better alternatives than poulsbo for nvidia GPUs	18:23
vlj	yes i know	18:23
vlj	but this is really ashaming that intel forget support for one of its gpu	18:23
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muep	AMD/Ati has both free driver support and a higher performance proprietary driver	18:24
vlj	on the first hand, they do a lot for kernel programming, they add feature	18:24
muep	I currently prefer them, even though the Catalyst driver is quite horrible in some ways	18:24
vlj	on the other hand they sell hardware with a driver working with only one revision of the kernel	18:24
[Rui]	vlj: I try to boycott PowerVR cards too :)	18:25
[Rui]	vlj: playing nice has provenly not worked with nvidia	18:25
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muep	vlj: Catalyst does not support Linux, they support a few specific distros :-(	18:25
[Rui]	vlj: intel's poulsbo isn't intel's, it's owerVR's :=	18:25
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vlj	yep but it's intel branded	18:26
vlj	i mean, i don't care if it's intel or powervr fault	18:26
vlj	i just want working driver on linux	18:26
[Rui]	vlj: I guess you'll just have to wait for your grand kids :)	18:26
vlj	and i think that intel should put some pressure on powervr	18:27
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vlj	or release they "gallium 3D special driver" they advertised some times ago	18:27
arachnist	muep: catalyst drivers work for me on gentoo. i doubt that's one of the blessed distros	18:27
muep	arachnist: of course they happen to work on many other distros	18:28
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muep	arachnist: but for example, there is still no working Catalyst release for Fedora 12, which AFAIR was released in November 2009	18:29
vlj	video driver are really very capricious piece of software	18:30
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muep	usually a working driver for Fedora seems to get released roughly when the next Ubuntu is released	18:31
vlj	by the way how will meego work on phone ? they all have powervr gpu	18:31
bfree	if you use non-free drivers you are stuck depending on the non-free provider for choosing the software (kernel and userspace) you can use with it	18:31
muep	which is about four to five months after the Fedora release, and only a couple of months before the next one, which will then end up unsupported for months	18:31
muep	fortunately, starting from F12, we have free opengl drivers for most ATI hardware, excluding only the latest generation	18:32
[Rui]	muep: I had to fight a lot, generally disably kms, in order to get this laptop's ati card working	18:33
muep	I had to install Fedora :-)	18:33
muep	Radeon HD3650	18:33
[Rui]	muep: Fedora 12 was a PITA here while last 3 Ubuntu's had working 3D with the free drivers.	18:33
bfree	vlj: so that means you are depending on powervr or nokia or someone to release a non-free driver for Meego for the powervr to use it on those "phones" ... or you stick with any primitive Free drivers that support the powervr (so how will meego "work" on non accelerated hardware and could you live with it)	18:34
muep	it is still quite new code, but the Catalyst issues are gradually getting less relevant	18:34
vlj	i think that there is no way to have meego on non accelerated hardware	18:34
vlj	moblin doesnt play well with unaccelerated hardware	18:35
muep	at least Ubuntu 9.10 still uses a lot older graphics driver code, without KMS or DRI2, for example	18:35
[Rui]	vlj: I'm hoping http://www.aavamobile.com/ is more open than what the site would lead one to think.	18:35
[Rui]	vlj: it's definitly not as open as the Ben Nanonote, but then it does a lot more too :)	18:36
[Rui]	vlj: aava seems a lot of talk without walk.	18:36
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* CosmoHill stabs netgear		18:40
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* netgear stabs CosmoHill		18:43
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CosmoHill	i swear ubunutu moblin will crash at the drop of a hat]	18:51
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lcuk	CosmoHill, dont drop your hat then	18:51
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CosmoHill	http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=87	19:06
CosmoHill	i might give this ago	19:06
CosmoHill	oh and it seems that mutter is part of clutter	19:08
damien_l	mutter is a WM that uses Xcomposite and Clutter	19:10
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* CosmoHill growls		19:49
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CosmoHill	select username, enter password, watch X restart	19:50
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CosmoHill	could someone give me the moblin boot configuration?	20:32
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CosmoHill	got it	20:55
CosmoHill	need to use gfxpayload=current	20:55
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CosmoHill	mmm, rpm	21:01
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sh0gun	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMwlchuqsXo	21:10
Stskeeps	that's what?	21:10
CosmoHill	MER on n900 with LXDE	21:11
Stskeeps	ah, no news	21:11
Stskeeps	i think my video is cooler :P	21:11
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CosmoHill	hmm, nvidia can't find the kernel source	21:14
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* CosmoHill dances		21:23
CosmoHill	moblin with nvidia :D	21:23
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CosmoHill	oh you've got to me shiting me	21:24
Jaffa	Stskeeps: New video?	21:26
Stskeeps	no, some user	21:27
w00t_	Stskeeps: "my video"	21:28
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CosmoHill	if i recompile xorg, do i need to recompile clutter?	21:42
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thiago_home	why would you?	21:49
thiago_home	the lib and the protocol are stable	21:49
CosmoHill	i got xorg working with nvidia	21:50
CosmoHill	but part of the panel crashes	21:50
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akkimoto	moin moin	21:52
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Stskeeps	moin	21:53
akkimoto	i like that here someone snack platt	21:55
akkimoto	has meego a localization for the platt language?	21:55
till-	:)	21:56
Shrik3	the what language?	21:56
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till-	a kind of german	21:56
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th0br0	no probs with me Stskeeps	21:59
CosmoHill	(moblin-panel-media:951): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:	21:59
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Stskeeps	meego and maemo is way too close in spelling when you're sleepy	22:00
Stskeeps	:P	22:00
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th0br0	:P Stskeeps	22:02
akkimoto	the problem is, that the translation german-platt (or english-platt) is not good word by word	22:03
CosmoHill	how do i find out the xorg display so i can start something from the command line	22:03
akkimoto	the people in northern germany that speaks platt spek not many words and have short phrases	22:03
akkimoto	some examles (english-german-platt)	22:05
akkimoto	good morging-guten morgen-moin	22:05
akkimoto	good afternoon-guten abend-moin	22:06
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akkimoto	good night-gute nacht-moin	22:06
akkimoto	hello-hallo-moin	22:06
akkimoto	understand my problem?	22:06
akkimoto	the other problem is, that sometimes the words speak to a man is different to the women in the same situation	22:11
akkimoto	a friend come in my house: speak to a man: kümm rin, snack di ut. and to the woman: kümm rin, treck di ut.	22:12
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* CosmoHill sighs		22:15
CosmoHill	so much fail :(	22:15
MisterN	akkimoto: platt isn't really german anyways :P	22:16
* CosmoHill stabs nvidia		22:17
akkimoto	istern yes, platt is (i think) a own language with influences of english, danish an german	22:18
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Jaffa	Tomorrow's mwkn.net issue is a "MeeGo special"	22:30
CosmoHill	yay	22:30
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akkimoto	hm	22:40
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ali1234	ok i have mock working, now i just need a config file for moblin...	22:46
CosmoHill	nvidia hates me	22:47
slaine_	Jaffa: will bolsh be writing that mwkn.net issue tomorrow ?	22:47
MisterN	CosmoHill: aww poor you	22:47
CosmoHill	every time i install the nvidia graphics driver the moblin UI breaks	22:49
slaine_	You followed brendans guide ?	22:53
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CosmoHill	http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=87	22:54
slaine_	yeah	22:55
CosmoHill	i followed that but with the current driver	22:55
th0br0	bye everyone, ttyl	22:56
CosmoHill	bye	22:56
slaine_	I never tried it myself	22:56
CosmoHill	i knew somethign was missing	22:59
CosmoHill	the music icon	22:59
Jaffa	slaine_: ?	23:00
slaine_	the mwkn.net MeeGo issue you mentioned	23:00
slaine_	Is Dave Neary doing it ?	23:00
Jaffa	slaine_: Oh, I didn't recognise the nick of "bolsh" since he goes by "dneary" in Maemo circles.	23:01
slaine_	ah right	23:01
Jaffa	slaine_: No, he's not.	23:01
slaine_	I know him from his ilug days	23:01
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slaine_	fecking wifi	23:17
CosmoHill	hehe	23:17
CosmoHill	wifi card or router?	23:17
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slaine_	router	23:18
CosmoHill	netgear?	23:18
slaine_	went down twice last week	23:18
slaine_	hmmm, linksys I think, the wrt54gs	23:19
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CosmoHill	i'm thinking of getting a linksys	23:20
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slaine_	I've had it for years, it's mostly great	23:21
CosmoHill	our adsl connection sucks	23:21
CosmoHill	it holds on to it for too long	23:21
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lbt	Jaffa: just looking at the python proto-thread.... and it's a good question. Where is meego's python-libs and perl-libs ?	23:45
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