IRC log of #meego for Saturday, 2010-02-20

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th0br0mh... 16:30 UTC? sounds nice00:32
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slaine_gah, fecking firewall00:36
sh0gunDo you also like the greatest design of N900? Or better say: NO DESIGN style?00:36
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sh0gunBlack brick with no design, what more could we want?00:36
th0br0bye everyone.00:37
sh0gunDo you think that next meego device is going to be similar? Or it is going to be for masses, so designed?00:37
rsalvetiprobably for the masses00:37
vmlemon_It meets a certain aesthetic, I guess00:37
rsalvetidon't think we'll have a real keyboard for the next device00:38
rsalvetiprobably capacitive screen and so on00:38
* vmlemon_ is one of the few who actually prefer functionality to prettiness 00:38
* arjan will miss the keyboard and resistive screen00:38
* simula_ likes his keyboard00:38
* mikeleib will nots00:38
sh0gunkeyboard on N900 seems small and tiny, but its usage is just great00:39
sh0gunno typos, fast typing00:39
* rsalveti don't care about prettiness00:39
* simula_ considers his n900 a mini-netbook00:39
rsalvetione of the best keyboards we have00:39
rsalvetiI used to have a e71, and that was already a great keyboard00:39
MisterNarjan: i can understand missing a keyboard. but missing a resistive touchscreen??00:40
rsalvetiand now with the n900 I'm also very comfortable with it00:40
rsalvetiguess that resistive is easier to work with stylus00:40
sh0gunyes, but more and more people want to use the fingers00:41
rsalvetisome websites aren't so easy to work with in a capacitive screen00:41
rsalvetiyeah, true00:41
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vmlemon_Heh, good luck trying to use a capacitive touch screen with gloves, I guess00:42
sh0gunand capacitive is far more sensitive, reviewers wrote so many pretty words about N900 screen, that its almost sensitive like capacitive, but it isnt00:42
sh0gunI dont use gloves00:42
* vmlemon_ doesn't either, but threw it out as a wildcard00:42
vmlemon_Although I can't really say much, given that all the handsets that I've had have had standard ITU-T keypads, and have been non-touch-enabled00:43
sh0gunanyway, I would like to ask, what about invisible shield on n900 screen? Does it make the sensitivity worse?00:43
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Suurorcahard to say,  I just hate those in general :P00:44
simula_sh0gun, sensitivity seems to be about the same, but it's not as silky... kinda of a pain00:44
simula_the stylus sticks on the plastic a bit00:44
sh0gunah, bad00:45
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sh0gunbut some guys from the discussions said that with invisible shield it more sliding00:46
sh0guneven with stylus00:46
sh0gunand now I see that stylus sticks a bit on it00:46
sh0gunopposite meanings :/00:46
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simula_i got the one with holes in it to fit the microphone and user facing camera... i can't speak to every cover00:46
sh0gunevery has these holes, but these holes are far away from touchscreen itself, how does it affect usage of stylus?00:49
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simula_i think some of the covers don't have holes00:55
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Tereskahello again :)01:01
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Tereskais plainText supports utf-8 characters?01:01
Tereskai've done something like this:  ui->plainTextEdit->setPlainText(HTTPreply->readAll() );01:01
Tereskaand i have buggy chars where utf-8 chars are01:02
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ptlI doubt it!01:17
ptlif you say so...01:18
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auketennis kirby?01:18
spud_(  .  )(  .  )01:19
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auketwo oranges?01:19
rangeYeah, but they fell from the truck.01:20
Tm_Tnice topic for this channel01:20
aukea bit off-topic01:20
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lbtauke: PAM?01:24
aukeas in, remove it?01:25
aukeit's not removed. we did try to reduce the amount of stuff we use from it.01:26
aukemight revisit that entire story again several times :)01:26
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aukewe'll probably need it to do fingerprint reader support, for instance01:27
* lbt giggles01:27
lbtsorry, straight face for the marketing guys now...01:27
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lbtI was more concerned about ldap type support01:28
aukehave you ever looked at PAM from a performance point of view? :)01:28
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javispedrologins/second? :)01:28
aukesyscalls per authentication, for instance01:28
aukefiles read from disc01:28
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lbtthat's interesting01:29
lbtI just sent off a mail on this01:29
lbtand noticed you were here :)01:29
lbtI did wonder where it mattered01:29
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aukewhen we started working on fast boot prototypes, we noticed that for some stuff, 80% of our straces were linux-PAM stuff :)01:30
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lbtso you made PAM faster?01:31
aukewell, there are worse things01:31
aukeahaha :)01:31
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lbtI have to wonder at the cost of a 5 second boot01:31
lbtas I mention in my email01:31
lbtI want my device to boot in the 0.01sec it takes my finger to swipe01:32
lbtand I booted my N900 ~10 times in 3 months01:32
lbtand I'm a hacker/dev01:32
lbtwith a pre-production unit01:32
lbtnow if it really affects day to day usage01:33
lbtthen that's different01:33
lcukadd to that the time to restart all applications01:34
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lbtauke: maybe try and reply to Marius and I some more about this 'upstream' thing. I have to go now. Catch you over the w'end I hope :)01:38
lbt'night all01:38
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GeneralAntillesTm_T, I'm personally pulling for them to file a big lawsuit against Nokia/Intel.01:41
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GeneralAntillesauke, Tegra sucks.01:41
GeneralAntillesauke, OMAP all the way. :P01:41
trip0why does tegra suck?01:41
trip0i personally like fast graphics01:41
GeneralAntillestrip0, historically because it was just an ARM11 with a big GPU and lots of fanboys01:42
GeneralAntillesNow because it's NVIDIA and they hate open source.01:42
trip0ahh, yes, that would be an issue to take with it then :P01:42
GeneralAntillesOn the other side you have TI01:42
GeneralAntillesWhich delivers a solid piece of hardware with fantastic Linux support that is improving everyday from the company that appears to actually /get/ open source.01:43
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vmlemon_Except when they threaten to sue people who modify calculator firmware ;)01:44
GeneralAntillesvmlemon_, different division. ;)01:45
vmlemon_Although that's by the by01:45
* GeneralAntilles <3's his TI-89ti, though.01:45
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vmlemon_They do make some impressive hardware otherwise01:47
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kkrhello hello01:58
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BliceDell spokespeople announced that the Mini 5 won't ship with the Android 1.6 build that we've seen so far -- instead, they say, it'll be running "something newer"02:21
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trip0Blice, like meego?02:23
BliceI hope so!02:23
BliceThey haven't said anything else, they won't say what "something newer" is02:24
BliceThey have been demoing it with Android 1.6 forever though.02:24
Bliceand by forever I mean the past few months02:25
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koupsaan would be nice if meego have a parental control04:59
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koupsano? :(05:23
wiretappedkoupsa: gtfo05:26
wiretappedi mean, define parental control05:27
wiretappedunless you just mean a censoring http proxy, in which case kthxbye05:27
koupsalike iphone  an easy way for my old mother05:28
* microlith boots moblin on his aspire one05:30
microlithum wow05:31
microliththat was fast05:31
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koupsacan i leave a children (less 11year) alone with a notebook or mediaphone a tv with no protection? it's difficult to add a easy parental control? install un proxy is not easy and mobil-web is mobil; so not always on same network (sorry if my english is not clear)05:34
d14better not ;)05:35
GeneralAntilleswiretapped, aren't you a little old to be worried about your parents locking you out of those websites? :P05:36
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* microlith finds the terminal in moblin and is happy05:38
koupsa:) me not but some mother can be anxious05:38
koupsaand if you root you don't care if your phone/notebook is censored05:40
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wiretappedkoupsa: children should be taught common sense... censorware can't make the internet "safe", whatever that means05:42
wiretappedbut it will block a lot of harmless things, and teach children that their parents don't trust them05:42
wiretappedand in many cases will teach them to circumvent it, which isn't such a bad thing :)05:42
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koupsai m agree but more difficult and less random bad publicity (like spamware)05:43
wiretappedi don't understand what you're saying05:43
koupsai m agree with you. but install a little controll can protect from bad porno publicity and other that choldren can found in a (like spamware for ex)05:47
koupsain a google simple search05:47
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microliththat's not the distro's problem though05:47
microlithsure some controls could be put into place (usage times, whitelists) but netnanny stuff is out of scope05:48
koupsa(once more time sorry for my english , i shut up :) ) not necessary but it can be an advantage .05:49
microliththen it would probably be a 3rd party option05:49
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* microlith fears either the ssd in his netbook is dying, or the pata controller is05:50
koupsai hope05:50
microlithtripzero: entirely possible, I have messed with its innards a bit...05:56
geoff43tripzero, the eternal optimist05:57
microlithhowever, moblin is not unhappy on it so I will not taunt it05:57
microlithI am now running both maemo and moblin05:57
tripzerogeoff43, ;)05:57
GeneralAntillesI think we need an "I'm a Pepper"-style ad campaign for MeeGo05:58
microlithGeneralAntilles: I could do both at once06:00
* microlith looks at all the drpepper cans...06:00
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mukiexOh wow.07:53
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mukiexDid not expect it to be this big, especially prior to a release o_007:53
GeneralAntillesWell, it's most of the Maemo community ,so. . . .07:57
mukiexI sorta figured as much.07:59
mukiexAssuming there'll be an app SDK, how will it deal with the two architectures? Fat binary or will it be up to the app store itself?08:00
mukiexI'm super-stoked about the entire concept08:02
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RST38hmoo all08:08
simulathat's a good point mukiex... hmm fat binaries would be pretty cool08:09
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RST38hNo need for fat binaries where LLVM works08:11
simulais there a version of LLVM that can compile Qt?08:14
RST38hNo idea but why not?08:15
simulai know it's c++ support is incomplete... at least CLANG08:15
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Stskeepsmorning thiago_home09:16
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* w00t_ moos at Stskeeps09:49
Stskeepsmoo w00t_09:50
w00t_Stskeeps: - you said you wanted to learn, so, learn :P09:50
Stskeepsdoes this mean i have to drag out my UI book?09:51
w00t_hehe, not for that one09:51
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admiral0hi *10:53
admiral0Stskeeps: hi man. i'm seeing your dream come true :)10:54
Stskeepshehe, i think it's been the dream of many, but difficult to implement10:54
Ambymorning everyone10:55
admiral0now my dream is to port meego software over arch (normal + mobile) :D10:55
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Stskeepsadmiral0: i think 3d drivers will be possible to strong-hand as nokia already provides in SDK11:05
Stskeepsand if TI gets in on the game..11:05
admiral0Stskeeps: the openpandora is also here to help us n900s11:05
Stskeepsopenpandora isn't going to have open 3d drivers11:05
Stskeepsit's a SGX, too11:06
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admiral0Stskeeps: you have more experience than me with nokia devices11:06
RST38hOpen pandora, closed pandora, are they shipping their soap boxes already?11:06
admiral0is there a way to have uboot instead of nolo?11:06
admiral0RST38h: they are in smp afaik11:07
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Stskeepsadmiral0: no, but i think we're happy to have nolo11:07
Stskeepsless brickable11:07
admiral0i want dual boot T.T11:07
Stskeepsyou have dualboot, get kexec working11:08
admiral0it's a workaround11:08
admiral0btw what's up with kexec?11:08
Stskeepsthere's a bug, tmlind mentioned something abotu it11:08
admiral0i heard it doesn't work11:08
admiral0kexec + qt embedded static binary = nice boot menu11:11
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admiral0Stskeeps: so kexec fails even with tmlind's patches?11:15
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Stskeepsin later version it doesn't11:16
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admiral0i wish i had my n900 so i can test11:18
admiral0is there any kernel that can use kexec on n900?11:19
admiral0if there is, with a lot of coffee and beer someone can bisect to the problem11:20
Stskeepsit should work on later linux-omap i think11:21
admiral0are there any nokia changes not in linux-omap?11:22
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AmbyStskeeps: very nice post!11:29
admiral0yes indeed11:29
Stskeepsthis discussion has really gone to the same ridicolous level as the rpm vs deb one, so11:30
AmbyStskeeps: this is what I just answered in another emotionally heated thread -
Stskeepspeople should realize that there's still a long time for things to fixed in maemo5 :P11:31
Stskeepskontorri spoke of the plans earlier in terms of timeframe, and there's a lot of things ahead of us11:32
AmbyGood that you opened a thread, I was about to start one to do what Nokia failed to explain :) Yours is very clear.11:32
Stskeepsovi maps is just shit, i use Maep11:32
AmbyI loved Ovi Maps 3.11:32
sharpneli"I'm extremely happy about the N900 - this is my first smartphone, I'm satisfied with and I am a smartphone user since 2005 (Nokia N90)" Do I sense some contradictions here eh? :)11:33
leinirovi maps is... call it in progress ;)11:33
lielI tried to build a lightweight browser using PyQt and QtWebKit, but the signal connecting was too difficult11:33
leinirsharpneli: i think he wanted to say "mobile computer" on the first one there ;)11:33
Ambysharpneli: could you explain?11:33
sharpnelileinir: Probably.11:34
sharpneliAmby: As mobiles are always personal devices the fact that he's been a smartphone user since 2005 means that N900 is not his first smartphone.11:34
admiral0maybe he wanted to say linux-based smartphone ;)11:35
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Ambysharpneli: that's my post (diff nickname). I think that's my English (and punctuation) which derails my meaning11:35
sharpneliOr mobile computer or whatever. It still looks funny :D11:35
sharpneliAmby: What is the correct meaning of that sentence?11:36
Ambyremove the comma :) this is the first *whatever* I'm happy with (period)11:37
leinirOoh... nicely :)11:37
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sharpneliHeh. Explains a lot :D11:37
leinirSo the fact that it's a mobile computer rather than a smart phone has nothing to do with the fact it's the first any remotely similar device you're really, actually happy with ;)11:38
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Ambyleinir: for me that is just semantics :) I had an N810 before, that was okay, but not happy.11:39
admiral0n900 misses only 2 things that would make it  f***ing EPIC for geeks11:40
leinirAmby: Well, it's an important distinction for me :)11:40
admiral0usb host and HD movies11:40
leinirA smartphone is a phone that tries to be a computer, which is not really my thing...11:40
leinirIt's fine for a lot of people, who really like the phone bit a lot, but for me it's the computer bit that's important :)11:40
admiral0now it's on the epic level ;)11:41
leinirSo, having a mobile computer, which is a computer which is able to do phone things (how well it does it is sort of unimportant for me), that's the good bit... for me :)11:41
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Ambyleinir: I also appreciate those values, but I'm most of all an en-user. I like a decent UI, multitasking (with usable UI), unlimited web browser, phone capabilities and the integration (no freaking apps for everything). I don't mind the mobile computer term, but you can also look at it as the cleverest phone out there :)11:44
leinirIt's just that it's an important distinctions :) It's not a phone which is able to run non-phone-related things, but rather it's a computer that fits in your pockets, which just so happens to be able to make phone calls :)11:45
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lielAlso, PyQt is dog-slow... This is one of the reasons I prefer GTK11:47
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admiral0liel: use C++/Qt11:48
lieladmiral0: I tried to learn C++, but it was to difficult to me11:49
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admiral0liel: try to use Qt Creator to code in C++. It helps you learn a lot11:50
admiral0you don't need to know advanced features of C++ to code in Qt11:50
admiral0if you do you understand why some things just fail11:51
admiral0and don't give up11:52
admiral0the first part of learning C++ is boring11:52
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villemvand the second part is painful ;-)11:53
villemvthen the fun starts11:53
villemvindeed w/ Qt you can get by without really learning c++11:53
villemvyou only need basically the "Java-level" knownledge of the language11:54
admiral0if there is something painful, then it's called C/GTK or C++/gtkmm11:54
villemvdon't know gtkmm, but I can appreciate the pain of C/gtk11:55
admiral0look at how many gtk projects are written in C#11:56
villemvor pygtk11:56
admiral0that means the native way is painful11:56
microlithGtkBuilder reduces the pain11:57
villemvI think the pain comes from C11:58
microlithC# is decent, but I wouldn't use it on anything but windows11:58
villemvnot really the class lib as such11:58
villemvpyqt / gtk# are quite ok I understand11:58
admiral0not on a embedded device11:59
villemv(I meant pygtk)11:59
villemvperhaps not on embedde device, but on n900 ;-)12:00
leinirIndeed - you really can get away with just not knowing anything about the nitty-gritty of c++ by using Qt :)12:00
leinirYou just need to have a basic understanding of what a pointer is, no need to have a complete grasp of pointer arithmetic (though it's good for optimization, but that can always come later) :)12:00
leinirNo need to know what sort of deep voodoo qobject_cast does, just that it works ;)12:01
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thiago_homeyou can get by without really learning C++, but do not come with a C++ basic question to #qt12:04
admiral0liked it :> ?12:04
thiago_homeyou'll be told to learn the language12:04
admiral0it's true12:04
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admiral0but to start coding and having fun is enough12:05
leiniradmiral0: Brilliant :) That's really all you need to know about pointers to use Qt :)12:05
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admiral0then you can have your time to learn more advanced things12:06
thiago_homeqobject_cast is very simple: template<typename T> T *qobject_cast(QObject *ptr) { if (cast is proper) return static_cast<T *>(ptr); return 0; }12:06
admiral0when i first started coding in C++ i didn't even know what templates are12:06
thiago_homethe "cast is proper" code is nothing more than normal code. No magic there.12:06
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villemvfor magic, see
admiral0or go in World of Warcraft12:07
admiral0thiago_home: don't scare him12:07
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leinirthiago_home: Oh i know - but to the user of it it's pretty magic :) My point is that to the casual user, it looks like any other language construct, what it does on the inside is... irrelevant to its use :)12:08
admiral0he'll understand it after some coding and real interest in C++12:08
leinirthiago_home: except, of course, for figuring out that problem i've been having with Gluon's Asset class ;)12:08
villemvit may also not be ovbious why you need qobject_cast instead of dynamic_cast12:08
villemvthiago_home: speaking of c++; when you upload the tidbit about std::function "slot" (QSignalMapper), take the trouble to make a small blog post about it or something. It's good "marketing material" for C++ in general12:11
villemv(regarding recent post on qt-interest ML)12:11
thiago_homevillemv: yes, I will12:12
villemvall those closures used as signal handlers are a persistent cause for C#/python/ruby envy :-)12:12
thiago_homevillemv: it has nothing to do with std::function or QSignalMapper, though12:12
thiago_homeit's just plain signal connections to functors12:12
villemvok, even better12:12
villemvI don't give  a damn about using those specifically. It was just something I thought of first12:13
villemvbut how do you pass the functor as argument if not using std::function?12:13
villemvsome construct that does the same thing?12:14
villemv(I guess using std::function allows avoiding the type being a template type)12:16
villemvnvm, I'll see it from the code anyway12:18
thiago_homethere's nothing special about std::function12:18
thiago_homeI probably repeated its construct in my code12:19
thiago_homebut anyway, before I publish my branch, I need to get the rest of Qt working12:19
thiago_homewe had a couple of failures yesterday, with pending fixes12:19
thiago_hometoday, everything is failing12:19
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Stskeepsthe best kind of changes ;)12:21
thiago_home11 out of 34 configurations failed, 5 passed, the rest are still building12:22
thiago_homeQWS and Solaris are passing. Windows, Mac, Linux, Windows CE, Symbian are failing.12:22
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sh0gunok, I hear some bad comments about Invisible Shield for N900, but what about Ghost Armor? Anyone with Ghost Armor on N900 please?13:16
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Stskeepsmorning tekojo!13:19
tekojomorning Stskeeps13:19
tekojojust popping in for  a13:19
tekojowhile, actually looking if the uni course we are running has any questions13:20
Stskeepsah, how's that going? (was there any english-language info on it anywhere?)13:20
tekojomaemo wiki has a page on it13:21
Hukkatekojo: Unrelated question. Someone needs to take control of #meego-meeting properly, since it has been announced as the official place for Wednesday13:21
tekojoHukka good point13:21
HukkaI see that this channel no longer has ops, so something has been done (the channel is now registered?)13:21
StskeepsHukka: it is taken over by GeneralAntilles13:21
Stskeepsalso i submitted a group registration for13:21
Stskeeps(GA's a former council member and very pro-community, no worries there)13:22
leinirsh0gun: initial searching suggests that GA is good :)13:22
tekojoWell GA and Sts are pretty reliable people :)13:22
HukkaStskeeps: This channel you mean?13:22
StskeepsHukka: #meego, #meego-*13:22
leinir(alright, the GA i am referring to is ghost armor, not the person ;) )13:22
sh0gunwhat is it?13:22
Stskeepsshort for stskeeps13:22
sh0gunpeople say that IS is tacky13:23
HukkaStskeeps: Hm, ok. I just went to the -meeting channel and am only one there13:23
sh0gunwhich is not good for stylus at all13:23
StskeepsHukka: yeah, the services let people op if need be13:23
HukkaAnd was hoping that someone takes over before Wed13:23
sh0gunis the GA tacky as well?13:23
vvvvwasnt meeting on wed13:23
leinirsh0gun: that i can confirm - i have one on my freerunner :)13:23
sh0gunleinir: IS or GA?13:23
StskeepsHukka: no worries, the channel is in safe hands13:23
HukkaOk, good work13:23
leinirsh0gun: IS - it's fine for me since i have nails (edge-ways your nail runs over it nicely), but a stylus does indeed stick a bit on it :)13:23
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sh0gunleinir: thats the issue :( I think about GA because I hoope it will not stick13:24
sh0gunreally no one in this channel with GA and stylus experience on it?13:24
tekojoThe meego-community mailing list is up, good13:26
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HukkaYeah, and no mention of RPM on that list yet :)13:31
Hukka(Maybe getting just a _bit_ fed up on the subject)13:32
leinirHukka: i've been fed up with that particular discussion for years ;)13:32
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tekojoHukka I really got bored of that topic too :)13:32
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Stskeepsand people still don't get the point: that it's about the toolset, procedure, existing state of the art services (builder, image building, etc etc) that are integrated together, working, and not stuck in the 90s13:32
leinirStskeeps: Exactly :)13:33
Stskeepsand services that are up and running, centered around rpm13:33
HukkaI mean, it's ok to really discuss it. But 99.9% of the people and comments on that are misinformed13:33
Hukka(In the sense that they haven't even bothered to research what their favourite system does, not to mention the other systems...)13:33
Stskeepsi'm even more shocked to find out how delusional people are about maemo :)13:34
HukkaBut I have high hopes for the community list13:34
HukkaI think that the rabble will keep out and only people interested in building the meego community will join. That should keep the pessimism out :)13:35
Stskeepssomething getting created and started is already showing13:35
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HukkaSure, pragmatic sceptism is good... But sceptism only takes you that far without anything else on the table13:36
leinirHukka: Yes, the word "community" tends to scare away tech-trolls ;)13:36
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Hukkaleinir: :)13:36
HukkaAnd info is getting in place nicely. For example the who13:36
Hukkas who list13:36
leinir*nods* Yes, that's a really nice little thing :)13:37
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HukkaWe never really had that for maemo, and you could see it13:37
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Stskeepsi still look forward to seeing where people are placed in the hierarchy and who's in charge of what13:37
Stskeepscos that's not apperarant, from my pov, the intel developers seem to have same position ;)13:37
HukkaYeah, the TSG is the least filled on that page :/13:37
Stskeepsit isn't obvious if the Head aMeeGos are part of TSG13:38
HukkaI wonder if it's because the corps are still negotiating on the balance13:38
Stskeepsthat isn't clear either13:38
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Stskeepsand how many nokians will be in the game too13:38
HukkaHopefully in the long run the TSG will rise from the ranks of the community13:38
HukkaBut right now, there isn't a way for that13:38
HukkaHow does the Foundation work anyway? Who decides on the projects?13:39
Stskeepsthere's a governance page13:39
Stskeepswhich explains a bit, but it talks about technical merit..13:39
Stskeepswhich has no meaning in a community13:39
Stskeepswell, for community people13:39
HukkaStskeeps: But it doesn't say who chooses the TSG13:40
HukkaJust that in meego, TSG is king13:40
Stskeepsyeah.. i am also keeping in mind that PR mostly put that together13:42
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HukkaSo I was wondering if it's the foundation board that chooses them; Linus & co. Or does Nokia and Intel have some kind of special position13:42
HukkaAnd what that position means for possible new corporate partners, or the small, small developer people13:43
Stskeepsi think it's the dictator's that are the top13:43
Terje1Hukka, Nokia and Intel have a special position. I guess these are the questions that will be answered in time - now the structure is being set up.13:43
HukkaBecause even if Nokia and Intel never use that power, even having the power to overrule everything is a great deterrence for us OSS geeks13:44
HukkaThen again, I suppose as soon as we get the code, we can fork :)13:44
Stskeepswell, nokia also has a good feeling about messing with community, not something they do lightly :P13:44
HukkaStskeeps: Yeah, but I mean it's still not free, if the slave's master gives only nice orders13:45
HukkaAnd principles play a large role in these circles13:45
StskeepsHukka: otoh .. i kinda like the fact there's someone to draw a line13:45
Stskeepsand help push the agenda ahead13:45
HukkaWell, that's different13:45
HukkaI'd like the community to have the option of parting with Nokia and Intel, if they wish. But it doesn't need to be a very good option, of course13:46
Stskeepsif community had their way, meego would end up with emdebian based meego that only ran sanely on nokia 770 ;)13:46
Stskeepsif discussions are to be interpreted13:46
Terje1Hukka, relax. No sense in starting to start a riot just because the thing is not ready.13:47
HukkaLike in Python, everyone fed up with Guido could fork. But everyone knows that having someone to make a decision and that everyone following is better, since Guido doesn't really make horrible choices13:47
tekojoHukka I guess that is always an option in open source13:47
HukkaTerje1: Well, like I said, if we get the code with GPL or something, then that's enough13:47
StskeepsHukka: well, it's also about being participants - it gets more difficult to do something unpopular if your maintainers and backbone of your project does not agree13:47
Stskeepswhich leads to compromise, etc13:48
Terje1Hukka, MeeGo is open source.13:48
HukkaStskeeps: Well, depends if you take votes from everyone, from everyone who bothers to vote, or everyone who bothers to put some effort into it :)13:48
StskeepsHukka: we'll see about how the community gets built up, and then this discussion makes more sense :)13:49
HukkaBut I think one thing with's whines is that they didn't have a choice. If given a choice, they would probably still take the current route. But they couldn't complain in good concience :)13:49
HukkaThat's the good thing about free software, you can always say "Make your own" and that usually shuts up the irrelevant discussions :)13:50
Stskeepsit'll be an interesting experiments to see if we can handle matters and actually produce things, yes13:50
HukkaLike the RPM vs deb. Just put everyone strongly in favour of deb to make it work. If they care, they will. If it doesn't really matter, then they will do nothing, not even continue the complaints.13:51
Terje1Considering that we have now two guys nominated to work in MeeGo community, I don't see yet too big reason to worry.13:51
HukkaSo I think that after the discussion about the alternative builds started, it's already a bit calmer13:51
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HukkaOh yeah, two guys. How can you call a duo dictators both :?13:51
HukkaMore like "the royal couple" :)13:52
StskeepsHukka: Rome did that didn't they?13:52
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HukkaStskeeps: Hm? There was the emperor, and...?13:52
Stskeepsah, no, it was two consuls at the top13:52
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StskeepsOn the establishment of the Roman republic the government of the state was entrusted to two consuls, that the citizens might be the better protected against the tyrannical exercise of the supreme power.13:52
thiago_homethen the triumvirate13:53
HukkaReally? Seems like the emperors did pretty much what they wanted13:53
thiago_homeHukka: Roman *republic*13:53
thiago_homenot Roman Empire13:53
HukkaI haven't really read about Rome since elementary school...13:53
Terje1Ok, the kid's awake. Bye13:54
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thiago_homethe consuls did pretty much what they wanted too, but since there were two of them...13:54
HukkaAnd how often the otherone died :?13:54
thiago_homethen new consuls or a new triumvirate was elected13:54
thiago_homeCeasar wasn't an emperor. Augustus was, the first.13:54
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HukkaA bit hard for me to distinguish, since in Finnish the work emperor derives directly from Ceasar :)13:56
Stskeepshi user_13:57
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leinirHukka: That's just because Finnish is a horrible, horrible language... no matter what Tolkien might've thought ;)13:57
ab3339cant we use credentials to login to
Hukkaleinir: You're just envious that we can speak it so well :)13:57
leinir*giggles* :)13:58
tekojoab3339 not yet13:58
ab3339so i should create a new one13:58
tekojothere is some work started to make provide OpenId so that could use that to authenticate13:58
ab3339can u tell me how to change my font color here? i am using xchat13:59
tekojobut it's still only a thought13:59
ab3339ok yea i ntoiced meego accepts openid13:59
thiago_homeab3339: ask in an xchat channel, please13:59
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JaffaMorning, all14:21
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GeneralAntillesIt's highlight freaking city in here. . . .14:25
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GeneralAntillesAh, acronym collision.14:26
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, you and X-Fade are +F14:26
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GeneralAntillesSomebody else picked up #meego-devel, though.14:27
Stskeepssomeone with good intentions, afaik14:28
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Stskeepsi'll pass reigns on when there's a visibile structure14:31
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: looks like a good place for you14:34
lcukGeneralAntilles, th0br0 picked up -devel, im idling there too14:48
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HukkaI only noticed that I don't have ops on -community anymore after trying to change the topic :)14:50
HukkaThought that I had only parts and joins ignored, seems like I have everything except actual discussion14:50
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lcukmeego bowling bbl15:05
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Jaffalbt: It's great that when I try to catch up on the dozens of threads now in my inbox you've made all my points for me already :)15:58
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Stskeepsso quiet today16:20
* w00t_ drops a pin16:20
JaffaScary, isn't it?16:20
thiago_homewe can discuss DEB vs RPM again if you feel it's too quiet16:20
w00t_I was just thinking that, thiago_home16:20
w00t_thiago_home: do you mind if I bug you with a qt related question? (stop reading if you do).. just wondering whether itemview-ng is still a priority, since i've not heard much about it for a fair while16:21
thiago_homeit's not a priority16:22
RST38hWill get quieter, gradually. Unless there are news.16:22
w00t_hrm, sadface16:22
Stskeepswell, when things start appearing there should be more activity16:22
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RST38hThere are a few intangible problems right now though16:23
Stskeeps was interesting to me16:23
RST38hah interesting16:23
Stskeepsas in, there's no current arm version, but it's getting bootstrapped16:23
RST38hIs this a page from the Maemo Devices guys?16:24
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RST38hOr is there duplication of efforts with Maemo Devices?16:24
anaZStskeeps:  why would there be anything ARM related before MeeGo in moblin?16:24
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StskeepsanaZ: i didn't see this as a negative thing :)16:24
Stskeepsbut you're right16:25
Stskeepsjust indicating this was current status16:25
Stskeepswhich means there's a lot of (fun?) work to be done16:25
Stskeepsso, the base distribution will compile towards same ARM 'target version' as fedora arm?16:27
Stskeepsat first16:27
anaZup to now I was the only one doing this work anyways, but now more folks are joining16:27
Stskeeps(like, gcc's default ARM version in f12 arm)16:27
anaZyes, then when a package builds, the meego version is used16:28
anaZand we are almost there where all packages build using meego16:28
Stskeepsoh, cool16:28
anaZremoving the dependency on fedora16:28
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Stskeepsbecause fedora builds towards ARMv5TE and i'm curious what meego does 'normally'16:28
Stskeepsas an example, fremantle SDK compiles towards ARMv716:28
anaZnow we are building v516:29
anaZonce we have something native we could jump16:29
RST38hI hope MeeGo will compile for ARMv7 instead :)16:29
StskeepsRST38h: i'm hoping for flexibility16:29
anaZwhen more ARM experts are around :)16:29
StskeepsanaZ: hehe, maybe my Nokia N810 can run MeeGo then :> (v5)16:29
RST38hSo, who is doing the ARM port? Nokia? Intel? community?16:30
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StskeepsRST38h: well, if we are going by previous statements, whatever is in upstream is used16:31
anaZWe are just providing the base upon which people can start building other packages16:31
anaZpeople= community, Noka16:32
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RST38hAnaz: "we" == ?16:33
anaZWe = Me16:33
RST38hanaZ: Ok, Intel16:33
RST38hanaZ: OTC?16:33
RST38hCool, because I was just gonna ask16:35
ShadowJKsoftware is more portable than some think :)16:36
RST38hanaZ: Will Maeblin be just an upstream kernel + some Atom SoC drivers, or will it be a complete solution, i.e. will it have base applications to browse the web, read email, use im, etc?16:36
anaZactually I did not need to change anything to build some base 70 packages16:36
anaZbeside glibc, gcc and kernel16:37
anaZwhich for now I am just taking the fedora source until we merge into MeeGo main packages16:37
ShadowJKFor the multimedia stuff it helps to figure out the right compilerinvocation/incantation :)16:37
blinoanaZ: well, there were some efforts to build Moblin for ARM before, but not from Intel directly :)16:37
anaZRST38h: You MeeGo?16:38
anaZit will be everything, from kernel up to frozen bubble :)16:38
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koupsaparental control to?16:38
RST38hWho will be providing the baseline then? Intel? Nokia? No idea yet? =)16:38
anaZadding a package from any other distro is really as easy as importing it and sometimes changing a couple of build deps16:39
eeanmmeego will provide the baseline... its an organization run by intel and nokia.16:39
koupsaRST38h arm and atom if i understand16:39
JaffaRST38h: The core base is coming from Moblin, AIUI16:39
RST38hJaffa: Ah, interesting =)16:39
anaZhence this whole upstream argument is not necessary :)16:39
RST38hJaffa: So, finally no Modest? =)16:40
eeanm(but I guess the whole point is that moblin and maemo aren't much different in their stack.)16:40
JaffaRST38h: Nokia provide a community; Qt and some other bits16:40
JaffaanaZ: Hmm.16:40
RST38hJaffa: MicroB, I hope? :)16:40
ShadowJKYou know, many of the things in libosso are useful too.. lblocation..16:40
JaffaRST38h: Who knows? Nokia having a proper MeeGo device is presumably about 12-18 months away; assuming the N900 successor is coming out with Harmattan16:41
ShadowJKdunno if mobline has libosso equivalent etc :)16:41
eeanmShadowJK: that's all part of the Qt stack now16:41
ShadowJKosso too?16:41
eeanmwell stuff like liblocation16:42
RST38hShadowJK: Must have HAL though16:42
* RST38h goes to look at the current Moblin apps16:43
ShadowJKi thought hal is going away overall16:43
RST38hShadow: No way, it is a hardware abstraction layer16:43
th0br0hello everyone.16:43
RST38hShadow: If anything, it will have to grow16:44
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ShadowJKthere's of course many things in libosso that would be saner to put elsewhere, like the screen on/off stuff...16:44
Stskeepseeanm: involved with meego btw?16:44
RST38hShadow: /dev/fb*16:44
RST38hioctl should do the job16:44
blinoanaZ: for now, the MeeGo repo has basically the same content as Moblin, when will the Qt packages from Maemo be introduced?16:45
eeanmwell I don't consider harmattan to be meego :)16:45
ShadowJKHow about X's DPMS extension...16:45
thiago_homeblino: they won't16:45
thiago_homeblino: the Qt packages for Maemo are specific for Maemo 516:45
thiago_homethey don't make sense elsewhere16:46
ShadowJKhow abour 4.6? ;)16:46
thiago_home4.6.2 yes16:46
thiago_homebut it's just like any other distro: just package it up16:46
RST38hah how cute, Moblin has got its own App Manager16:46
RST38hno finger scroll but it is ok16:47
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eeanmaren't moblin devices netbooks? so of course no finger scroll16:47
blinothiago_home: so the Qt UI will be totally different from what Nokia showed before?16:47
* ShadowJK nods16:47
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thiago_homeblino: what UI are you thinking of?16:47
damien_land indeed HAL is going away16:48
ShadowJKblino: a matter of configuration isn't :D16:48
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thiago_homeblino: the one presented as the Maemo 6 UI?16:48
damien_lwe don't have it anymore in Moblin16:48
eeanmseems like Linux is changing its mind about that every few years16:48
anaZdamien_l:  what?16:48
ab3339whats HAL?16:48
damien_lanaZ: we have it back ?16:49
thiago_homeab3339: the computer that killed Dave :-)16:49
anaZwhat is it?16:49
eeanma linux api16:49
anaZhal is gone16:49
anaZpkg might be there16:49
anaZbut nothing depends on it16:49
RST38hdamien: if hal is going away, what is going to provide common api to hardware?16:49
ab3339that odassy movie?16:49
anaZneed to drop :)16:49
RST38hwith two architectures to maintain?16:49
sp3000a herd of ponies16:49
damien_lRST38h: libudev + derivatives16:49
thiago_homeab3339: yes16:49
blinothiago_home: yes, I was thinking about the Maemo 6 one16:50
blinothe MeeGo UI has been announced to be based on Qt, but no components available now?16:50
thiago_homeblino: the Maemo 6 UI is not the Maemo 5 UI16:51
thiago_homeand whatever was presented in the Summit last year was preliminary16:51
thiago_homeit's not finished16:51
thiago_homebesides, Nokia reserves the right to completely change the look-and-feel from stock MeeGo in its own devices16:51
eeanmand the maemo 6 ui probably isn't the real meego ui  :) (even though maemo 6 is now meego...)16:51
eeanmI really wish they didn't rename maemo 6, its just confusing :D16:52
thiago_homemaemo 6 is still maemo 616:52
eeanmbut marketing isn't always about clarity16:52
eeanmno its not16:52
thiago_homeany renaming is just marketing16:52
eeanmharmattan is still harmattan, maemo 6 is no more16:52
eeanmnow its meego16:52
thiago_homeright, I never refer to it as Maemo 6 anyway16:52
ab3339i dont like "meego" ... it feels like iam saying "i am going"16:53
thiago_homefor me it's always been Fremantle and Harmattan16:53
thiago_homeand the I-one16:53
blinothiago_home: but MeeGo is said to us Qt as UI backend, for now, everything is still clutter-based in the repos16:53
thiago_homeblino: that goes to show that MeeGo UI will also be different from Moblin UI16:53
th0br0blino: those repos are just a copy of moblin's current ones afaik16:54
eeanmwell yea, at the moment meego is just marketing :) I'm guessing the first "meego" release they talk about coming in q2 2010 is going to be just moblin, in the same way harmattan is still going to be maemo.16:54
damien_lMeego 1.0 UI for netbooks will mainly be Clutter based16:54
RST38hThat is the current Moblin UI, supposedly16:54
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anaZthat is ancient16:58
anaZthis is moblin 2.016:59
ab3339looks nice16:59
ab3339screen size was big16:59
StskeepsanaZ: on a sidenote, is the idea to have 'public OBS' for meego? as in, people can access, make their own home: repositories, etc?16:59
RST38hanaZ: Says 2.1 =)17:00
eeanmhow about meego just use OBS instead having their own :>17:00
anaZStskeeps: long term maybe… but for now it would be difficult17:00
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eeanmI don't think its that hard to add a distro to OBS17:01
Stskeepseeanm: i am in a 18 hour build queue atm, no, seperate OBS makes sense17:01
anaZStskeeps:  need to see if we can use the LF build system for this :)17:01
ab3339what devices have been released with moblin?17:01
StskeepsanaZ: okay :/ there's a big benefit to home: repositories as it invites contributors to the system17:02
ab3339if any17:02
anaZStskeeps:  yes, I nkow17:02
StskeepsanaZ: so in the longer term it's for sure valuable to look at17:02
eeanmStskeeps: heh okay. perhaps run our own instance of OBS.17:02
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eeanmthe main benefit of OBS is that you could upload your code once and have packages for multiple architectures17:02
eeanmobviously thats an important feature if meego is going to work at all...17:03
StskeepsanaZ: but let's look closer at the topic when there's code on the table :)17:03
eeanmtrue :)17:03
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eeanmactually Nokia should probalby hire Novell to run an OBS that lets you upload a Qt app and produce binaries for various versions of symbian, meego arm, meego x8617:04
Stskeepseeanm: if you read between the lines, there is a MeeGo OBS17:05
th0br0Stskeeps: heya. was there any news in the past ~20 hours?17:06
Stskeepsth0br0: none, surprisingly17:06
th0br0Mh, ok :)17:06
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RST38heeanm: for Symbian?17:17
* RST38h laughs diabilically17:17
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lainwir3dhey th0br0, nice to see you here :p17:30
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th0br0heya lainwir3d :D same goes to you i guess17:30
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ScriptRippereeanm: why would Novell be the ideal suited company to do that?17:42
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ScriptRipperthey never really supported ARM17:43
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ScriptRipperand not even us with port openSUSE 11.2 to ARM17:43
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ShadowJKAs, presumably, experts on OBS17:43
ScriptRipperalso, there were public statements like: "Novell will never do ARM"17:43
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ScriptRipperShadowJK: but I developed with dl9pf the complete ARM support of OBS17:44
ScriptRipperand even lots of other OBS code since 200617:44
ScriptRipperand we are part of MeeGo, so why do we need Novell17:45
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ScriptRipperthey had never any shares in the ARM stuff at all17:45
villemvimportance of cpu architechure (arm) is totally overplayed17:46
villemvit only matters in a few core components (kernel, drivers, x)17:46
villemvthe rest is just linux17:46
ScriptRippervillemv: and buildsystem, packaging, testing17:47
villemvok, gcc + toolchain too17:47
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ScriptRipperthat was our work to get OBS working on ARM17:47
villemvbut meego doesn't really maintain gcc17:47
jophishsorry, but what does OBS stand for in this context?17:47
ScriptRipperexplain maintain?17:47
villemv"commit modifications"17:48
GAN900OpenSUSE Build Service17:48
ScriptRipperOBS initially used to stand for "openSUSE Build Service"17:48
jophishah, thanks17:48
ScriptRipperbut since its now used for many other distros17:48
ShadowJKvillemv, gcc for arm is mostly like throwing a dice and picking a gcc version and hoping that nothing important like the kernel miscompiles :D17:48
ScriptRipperthe name might not be accurate anymore17:48
ScriptRipperwe are discussing a rename17:48
ScriptRipperto something like17:48
ScriptRipperLinux Build Platform17:49
ScriptRipperor the like17:49
villemvScriptRipper: "we". you are on opensuse guy then?17:49
GAN900OBS is a good acronym17:49
ScriptRipperoh, you refer to my IRC coak17:49
ScriptRipperthat is historical17:49
GAN900How about "Open Build Service" :P17:49
ScriptRipperwe discussed that either17:50
villemv"Other Build Service"17:50
GAN900OMG Build Service!17:50
ScriptRipperthe other root of confusion is also17:50
ScriptRipperthere is a FOSS project17:50
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ScriptRipperand there are services running in the net using it17:51
jophishYABS seems good17:51
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ScriptRipperwe end up in the same problem like with the meego guys naming the new kid17:51
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ScriptRipperand: i work now for the Linux Foundation17:52
ScriptRipperand i was never a Novell employee17:52
jophishMaemo, Moblin, meego. MBS?17:52
ScriptRippereven though I still use my old openSUSE cloak17:52
ScriptRipperin IRC17:52
GAN900Maemo and Moblin are dead17:53
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ScriptRipperGAN900 with what consequences for OBS naming ?17:53
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ScriptRippervillemv: in the sense that i developed parts of OBS yes. Novell employee: No17:55
villemvalright ScriptRipper17:55
ScriptRipperI should switch to a Linux Foundation cloak then not to confuse people17:56
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ScriptRipper<villemv> it only matters in a few core components (kernel, drivers, x)17:58
ScriptRipperthat is not totally true17:59
ScriptRipperits a bit more components in practise that rely on arch specifica17:59
ScriptRipperwe have seen that during a port of Moblin and openSUSE to ARM17:59
ScriptRipperusing OBS17:59
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sh0gunhi again, anyone with ghost armor screen protector? :)18:00
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fnordianslipsh0gun: have you asked in #maemo?18:03
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eeanmScriptRipper: um, because OBS is great technology.18:05
eeanmScriptRipper: running an ARM compiler ain't exactly rocket science...18:06
eeanmand is hardly the same thing as developing an ARM distribution, we already do that18:06
sh0gunnot asked in #maemo yet18:06
sh0gunI will try18:06
ScriptRippereeanm: no running an ARM compiler is not rocket science18:07
ScriptRipperbut running cross compilation on x8618:08
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ScriptRipperwithout the package noticing it and without the need to rewrite pkgs for cross compile18:08
ScriptRipperis *not so obvious* anymore18:08
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ScriptRipperso the OBS implementation for ARM had as a requirement18:09
eeanmthat's not OBS's job18:09
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villemvI thought obs was doing that already18:09
eeanmbut OBS solves so many of the problems of allowing the public access to a multi-distro build farm...18:09
eeanmbut yea OBS isn't magic. eg if you want to build RPMs and debs you obviously need a spec file and a debian/ directory18:09
ScriptRippereeanm: exactly18:10
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ScriptRipperbut most .spec files do not work for cross compilation18:10
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ScriptRipperand we wanted to solve that18:10
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lbtJaffa: heh - but you've got to reply - we need the weight/attention!18:10
ScriptRipperwithout the need to rewrite them18:10
ScriptRipperand also18:10
ScriptRipperOBS should solve the problem18:11
ScriptRippernot dependencies to cross or native build18:11
ScriptRipperget put into the packages18:11
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ScriptRipperso that one could *transparently* switch between native build, emulator and cross build18:11
villemvhow does obs to the cross compilation btw?18:12
ScriptRipperwe wanted to use openSUSE 11.2 with 3500 pkgs as a genuie pig18:12
villemvwhen you compare it with, say, scratchbox / sb218:12
ScriptRipperit can do the same as scratchbox18:13
ScriptRipperbut it is not invasive as scratchbox18:13
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ScriptRipperbut user controllable18:13
* eeanm is so glad that meego means the eventual end of using scratchbox for development at least...18:13
villemvok, so it's using some LD_PRELOAD hacks?18:13
ScriptRipperwe solve this with the OBS internal API18:14
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ScriptRipperthat sets up the build environment18:14
ScriptRipperit is capable to setup virtual machines and emulators18:14
ScriptRipperbefore the build starts18:14
Jaffalbt: heh18:14
ScriptRipperand even a combination of both18:15
ScriptRipperso you can do the same as with scratchbox18:15
villemvanyone know already what gcc version MeeGo will be using?18:15
ScriptRipperbut it is not *invasive* as scratchbox18:15
ScriptRippervillemv: i heard it will be Fedora 12 based18:16
eeanmvillemv: meego is currently marketing jargon. meego-the-technology is too far in the future to say I'd guess.18:16
villemvok, that's very cutting edge18:16
ScriptRipperso it means gcc 44 or higher18:16
ScriptRipperalso, we need gcc 44 for ARM stuff18:16
ScriptRipperor higher18:16
villemveeanm: yeah, I'm just wondering what we'll eventually have access to18:16
villemve.g .that we won't be stuck w/ gcc 4,218:17
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ScriptRipperwhat distro used gcc 4.2 please?18:17
eeanmfremantle does I think18:17
ShadowJKwell, codesourcery not fsf, right18:18
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villemvsbox-i486-pc-linux-gnu-gcc (GCC) 4.2.118:18
ScriptRipperbut that does not matter so much in OBS18:19
ScriptRipperyou can rewrite packaging and build install rules18:19
anaZgcc 4.4.218:20
ScriptRipperso you can have multiple compiler versions in parallel18:20
ScriptRipperMaemo 5.0: gcc-4.2-base_4.2.1-4maemo918:20
villemvanyone know how good c++0x "auto" support is in that gcc?18:20
ScriptRipperthat is really pretty old18:20
villemvI know it has it, but not about the maturity18:20
ShadowJKScriptRipper, i think it's 2007 cs18:21
villemvdev tools in maemo 5 are indeed very old, debian etch era18:21
eeanmvillemv: you wouldn't want to use that prerelease stuff I don't think...18:21
ShadowJKright :)18:21
villemveeanm: pre-standard, but actually implemented. it might be nice for prototyping etc18:21
eeanmI guess. I'd just avoid it :)18:22
eeanmand use ruby for prototyping18:22
eeanmor whatever your flavor is ;)18:22
villemvI mean prototyping in the sense of "implement a part of c++ program"18:22
ScriptRipperi mean, all this uncertainty will soon be removed when the MeeGo OBS goes public18:22
eeanmthat's called implementing...18:23
villemvobviously I would use python for thought experiments18:23
eeanmbut yea I wouldn't use that stuff there18:23
villemvI meant to say "PROTOTYPE a part of c++ program"18:23
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eeanmScriptRipper: wait so meego is using OBS? I really lost the thread of what you were saying before :D18:24
RST38hWhy do you need to prototype a C++ program?18:24
RST38has opposed to writing it in C++?18:24
th0br0RST38h: for testing good desing?18:24
th0br0it's actually a good practice ... for bigger projects for sure...18:24
RST38hAnd why can't you test design in C++?18:24
eeanmRST38h: he is talking about prototyping in C++, which doesn't make sense ot me :)18:24
ScriptRipperyes, MeeGo and Moblin use OBS18:24
th0br0depending on the size of the project that'd be kinda difficult.18:24
ScriptRipperthe proble with OBS18:25
th0br0besides, compiling takes time18:25
RST38hWhy would you want to test a lot of design instead of implementing it piece by piece?18:25
ScriptRipperthat it stands for openSUSE Buildservice @ Novell18:25
eeanmwhy is that a problem18:25
ScriptRipperwhich is not meant18:25
villemvof course you need to prototype a component for c++ program in c++18:25
th0br0RST38h: so that you easily revert it ...18:25
ScriptRipperbecause Novell will not host the project18:25
RST38hWhy can't you revert stuff written piece by piece?18:26
eeanmwell OBS is open source so its still not a problem :)18:26
th0br0villemv: well... take a look at the blender guys ... they're doing python prototyping & converting to c afterwards. why? well, imho this way it's faster to add and test new features.18:26
ScriptRipperbut OBS also stands for the Service, and not only for the Source Code18:26
th0br0ofc, for a small project that's pretty useless but for bigger ones ...18:26
ScriptRipperwhich sometimes confuses18:26
RST38hUseless for bigger projects too18:26
RST38hAbility to break bigger tasks into smaller tasks and plan their execution is useful though18:27
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ali1234top-down stepwise refinement doesn't mix very well with C++ because of the amount of boilerplate it requires, which you end up having to change any time the design changes. and that is why people prototype in python.18:32
RST38hWell designed program does not require too much boilerplate18:33
RST38hIf it does, you are doing something wrong18:33
ali1234C++ by its very nature requires large amount of boilerplate18:34
RST38h(usually, by designing things that had to be left out)18:34
RST38hWhat boilerplate?18:34
ali1234if you design the whole program beforehand this does not matter18:34
RST38hDesigning whole program beforehand is a bad design practice18:34
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RST38hEven although a lot of software engineering books written by non-programmers will teach you that18:35
ali1234boilerplate in C++? every time you write a constructor, destructor, class/function declaration, or have to choose between public and private - that is boilerplate you don't need in a prototype18:36
RST38hAnd how do I "choose"?18:36
RST38h(given that I already have public: and private: sections in my class)18:36
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leinirRST38h: The idea is that in a prototype, you hack everything to just check if it'd work. As such, you just write everything as public, because private is something you do to make things pretty when viewed from the outside18:38
ali1234RST38h: and then you realize you need something private to be public and have to cahnge your class definition anyway18:38
RST38hleinir: I can just as well write everything as public in C++18:38
RST38hEither way, there is no boilerplate involved18:38
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ali1234RST38h: if you never ever change your class definition (because you designed your entire program before beginning to write it) then there is no benefit to prototyping18:39
RST38hIt is true that I rarely change my class definitions18:39
RST38hBut I never design the whole thing from the start :)18:39
ali1234if you make even a slight attempt at following OO methodology with real public interfaces, the class definitions end up changing a LOT18:40
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ali1234you either plan them out with UML or something, or you prototype them18:40
ali1234personally i prefer to prototype and then look at what really needs to be public/private18:40
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Stskeepsheya ezjd18:54
ezjdHi Stskeeps18:54
Stskeepshow's it going?18:54
ezjdGood. I have been looking into the mails and IRC log to try to get more information ...18:55
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ezjdStskeeps: When can I expect more information like detailed architecture/document is available?18:57
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arjanezjd: week or two18:59
arjanezjd: if you have specific questions by all means ask it18:59
arjanjust because there is no pretty picture does not mean you can't get answers ;)18:59
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bobdobolina_anyone have any idea when we'll get our first look at meego?19:00
arjanfirst look as in "somewhat tested alpha images"?19:00
arjanhopefully first few days of march19:00
ezjdarjan: Thx!19:01
bobdobolina_"look" meaning anything from screenshots to looking at any sort of code or anything for that matter19:01
bobdobolina_i actually havent seen anything about it other than the nokia intel announcement19:01
bobdobolina_and the website19:01
infobotDocScrutinizer: thanks19:02
DocScrutinizermoin Stskeeps19:02
Stskeepsmorning DocScrutinizer19:02
arjanbobdobolina_: screenshots will depend on what device fwiw19:02
arjannetbook will look a little bit familiar to moblin 2.1 (but with many improvements/changes everywhere)19:03
ezjdWill MeeGo UI framework be based on Harmattan's?19:03
Stskeepsarjan: maybe a untraditional question, but are there any issues/things to help with, that we can do early on? (from technical point of view) - always helps to have more hands19:03
Stskeepsarjan: or maybe "MeeGo 101" of materials to read up on :)19:03
arjanezjd: you mean the Qt one? for handsets absolutely19:04
arjanStskeeps: right now we just need to get the infra ready19:04
arjanso that there is a place to help19:04
ezjdBecause Harmattan just released and opened UI code (so called DUI), I am referring to that (based on Qt)19:06
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Stskeepswell, there's OBS, what other infra is getting set up? (not sure if it's mentioned anywhere)19:06
arjanezjd: yup you can assume it'll be based on that19:06
Stskeepsof the technical kind19:06
arjanStskeeps: accounts, contribution agreement etc19:06
RST38hrepos? procedure to submit stuff to repos and track its status?19:06
arjanwe also are moving the git trees for projects19:06
Stskeepsarjan: contribution agreement doesn't mean copyright assignment i presume19:07
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arjannot that I know of19:07
arjanmore like "I promise that what I contribute I have the rights to contribute" kind of thing19:07
Stskeepsthat's a good thing19:07
arjanbut as disclaimer, I have not seen final language19:08
arjanbut I'm hoping it looks a lot like the kernel contribution agreement19:08
Stskeepsi probably need to clear that with my upstream contractor as well19:08
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Stskeeps(and of course, if distmaster role covers helping out with meego too :)19:08
arjanI'd hope so ;)19:09
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ezjdBoth Moblin and Harmattan are assuming OpenGL support, will Meego do so?19:10
Stskeepsdepends on desktop and widget set in use i guess19:10
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arjanyeah we assume a hardware 3d engine19:11
arjanyou can argue for hours which exact extensions are required vs optional19:11
arjanbut I'm much more pragmatic ;-)19:12
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arjanthere's already some abstraction layers for the differences19:12
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Stskeepsbut from a base system area and "normal" qt, it could be possible to have non-GLES too, if you -really- wanted it, i guess19:12
arjanso in the end opengl/gles matters only to the implementation details of one component19:12
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MisterNarjan: so meego will NOT work on a system without 3d-hardware?19:12
arjanMisterN: that is a broad statement19:13
RST38hStskeeps Hint: Moblin Developer Edition (live CD) apparently does not require OGL right away19:13
arjanthe reference user experience of netbook and handset will use/need 3d hardware19:13
MisterNarjan: it is broad, and that's why i asked!19:13
RST38hStskeeps: At least it starts up without it and shows the welcome screen19:13
arjanthat does not mean that one could not make some UI without it on top of meego19:13
MisterNhandset means phone?19:13
MisterNwhy not just say phone? :P19:13
MisterNyou know people would actually understand what you mean19:14
arjansorry too many hours of negotiation with nokia folks19:14
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arjanthey don't call the n900 a phone ;)19:14
arjanportable computer or something ;019:14
ShadowJKmobile computer ;)19:14
arjanthat one19:14
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MisterNi'm not sure if that's so clever, because that suggests that computer companies are better at it19:15
DocScrutinizerand it is19:15
ShadowJKfor some users the word "phone" implies a whole slew of gsm/3gp features not pvresent in n90019:16
DocScrutinizerwhy do you think Nokia is any worse on computers or rubbershoes than any other manufacturer?19:16
ShadowJKLike "phone" automatically means PTT, 3g media sharing, 3g video calls, etc :)19:17
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DocScrutinizerhonestly from a mere "phone" POV N900 isn't outstanding19:18
thiago_homeit makes calls19:18
RST38hit is fine19:19
thiago_homeI am in phone conferences every week with the N90019:19
RST38hI hate the weight and the brickish form (E70 was so much more comfortable) but N900 is ok as  phone19:19
thiago_homeit can sustain a 3-hour conf or more in the battery lifetime19:19
ezjdBut I think assuming HW GL support will extremely narrow down the list of targeted devices. At work, I frequently saw customer want to strip down graphic part of chip to reduce cost and save power.19:19
RST38hN900 shines when in speakerphone mode though19:19
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leinirDocScrutinizer: It's not OMFGwtFBBQAEWSUM!!!111eleventyone, but it makes calls just fine :)19:19
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roadihildon-home uses 100% of my cpu; rebooting the n900 was not the solution; any ideas? btw after few seconds the n900 asks me to kill this process but its for the home-screen so it will be restartet and the problem starts again. :(19:20
thiago_homeI've seen the designs for the successor of the N900 and, trust me, it looks much better19:20
roadiargh wrong channel :>19:20
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ebassiezjd: all smart phones released today, and all the ones in the can for the next few years, will have GL support19:20
leinirthiago_home: you can't talk about it other than that, though, i take it? No news on physical keyboard for us, right? ;)19:20
thiago_homeleinir: I can't tell you any specifics19:20
leinirYeah, thought so :)19:20
thiago_homeleinir: I can just say it'll be awesome19:20
leinirGlad to hear it's nifty looking though :)19:20
thiago_homeI can repeat what has been publicly said, though19:21
thiago_homecapacitive, multitouch touchscreen19:21
arjanezjd: if you want a fast feeling UI, you need hw accel.19:21
th0br0cheaper or at the same price level as the n900, thiago_home?19:21
thiago_hometh0br0: that I don't even know19:21
arjanezjd: if you don't want a fancy UI, s40 is there ;)19:21
ezjdebassi: trust me, that isn't the truth, and I don't think MeeGo is only targeting smartphone19:22
thiago_homenow, here's an interesting question: how are we going to do multitouch with X11? :-)19:22
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leinirthiago_home: Something which i'm not so hot on, but ah well :)19:22
th0br0thiago_home: umm, there is 1.619:22
ebassiezjd: "trust me" too19:22
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th0br0or 1.7? they delayed it to 1.7 iirc19:22
arjanthiago: X 1.8 has multi touch capable stuff19:22
thiago_home1.7 XInput219:22
thiago_homebut even XInput2 isn't good enough19:22
th0br0 thiago_home19:22
thiago_homewe need a different solution19:22
arjanthiago: hmm interesting; I know that we have multitouch in moblin19:23
thiago_homewhat's more, XInput2 requires a complete rewrite of Qt's mouse, tablet and keyboard handling19:23
th0br0i guess that'll come sooner or later anyway... ?19:23
ebassithiago_home: we had to do that for gtk+ as well; it's still sitting in a branch, right now19:23
th0br0why isn't it good enough btw?19:23
ezjdebassi: Let's not talk about smartphone as the definition isn't the same to everyone, how about other targeting devices?19:24
MisterNthiago_home: i guess that should be done then :P19:24
thiago_homeI don't know the specifics19:24
thiago_homebut I can get it for you19:24
ebassiezjd: for meego?19:24
arjanezjd: other devices may or may not share the same UI19:24
arjanezjd: but at least all atom silicon has some form of 3D engine19:25
th0br0thiago_home: you mean why it isn't good? that'd be interesting.19:25
ebassiwhat arjan said :-)19:25
ezjdebassi: yes. I assume Meego has same UI framework for at least most devices.19:25
Stskeepsputting a baseline of gles2 enabled devices for qt(+orbit/dui) makes sense19:25
arjanand a lot of the arm world has 3D as well19:25
arjanezjd: that's not quite a correct assumption19:26
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arjannetbook, phone, tv, car are all very very different19:26
thiago_hometh0br0: like I said, I don't know the details. I know that the information presented by XInput2 isn't the best format for Qt's consumption.19:26
arjanQt is the application API for all19:26
th0br0ah ok19:26
arjanbut the actual UI framework.... (like home screen etc) is very different between them19:26
thiago_hometh0br0: and from what I've been told, the maintainers agree with us. The thing is that it requires changes to the extension again.19:26
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th0br0which would delay multitouch for at least 1 other release?19:27
ali1234so what phones have OSS 3D drivers?19:27
ezjdarjan: In arm world, that is the reality that HW GL isn't always available from my experience.19:27
arjanezjd: but for devices where you don't invest in graphics capabilities you also don't expect graphics to be nice.19:27
arjansimple as that19:27
Stskeepsezjd: on anything new, it is19:28
arjanin english "you can't eat your cake and ahve it"19:28
Stskeepsat least GLES219:28
thiago_homeebassi: ours too, it's in a branch19:28
Stskeepsezjd: the problem is licensing19:28
RST38hali1234: probably none of them19:28
thiago_homeebassi: there's a lot to be tested, including the fallback to X servers that don't support XInput219:28
ebassithiago_home: true19:28
thiago_homeebassi: and the entire IM mechanism in Qt woks on raw X events, so they need to be ported over too19:29
ali1234RST38h: that's what i figure. which means no truly free meego for phones19:29
arjanali1234: that's up the the hw guy though19:29
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ezjdarjan: we can assume different UI framework for different device, but I think we can use the flexibility of Qt to achive that. But Harmattan UI isn't at lease now.19:29
arjanif they negotiate a license to get open drivers... purchasing power ftw19:29
ali1234arjan: i know, that is the problem19:29
RST38hali1234: Well... There are other reasons why we would like MeeGo to have optional OGL requirement19:29
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arjanali1234: as long as the phone vendor is ok/happy with binary graphics drivers that is not going to change19:30
ali1234it basically means we won't even be able to make a replacement meego firmware for any device and legally distribute it because of driver licencing19:30
ezjdStskeeps: as matter of fact, I am seeing something will go to market in next few years doesn't have it.19:30
arjanali1234: but once a big phone company says "this shall be open" all silicon vendors will figure it out ;)19:30
ali1234well as usual, i won't be holding my breath19:31
RST38harjan: No :(19:31
damien_lwe have a "fallback" Xfce environment in Moblin that could serve the non GL case, but don't expect any development on non GL envs19:31
ali1234instead i'll be making my own UI that doesn't require 3D19:31
ali1234or just using android instead19:31
MisterNthe evil word!19:31
arjanandroid has binary 3d just as well19:31
arjanso good luck ;)19:31
RST38harjan: In the case of ImageTech, it won't open anything until someone buys them out19:32
ali1234hahaha, well i need something that doesn't require 3D and also runs on a 240x320 screen19:32
ali1234arjan: android does not require 3d at all, it runs fine on a plain fb19:32
* mikeleib is using the fallback XCFE desktop right now19:32
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, capacitive equals the end of the line for my relationship with Nokia, unfortunately.19:32
arjancurrent generation does.19:32
ShadowJKNokia and TI have even brought us 3d drivers on N8x0, where there never were any before ;)19:32
damien_lali1234: then yes, you'll have to write it :p19:32
ali1234define "current generation"19:32
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: why?19:32
ezjdarjan: regarding fancy UI, assuming you agree with me KDE4 is a fancy UI, the openGL support is still optional.19:32
ali1234are they on 2.0 yet?19:32
* GeneralAntilles still can't believe they're abandoning their existing customer base like that for a MARKETING driven decision.19:32
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, because, quite frankly, capacitive sucks.19:33
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, and I can't stand to use it.19:33
th0br0 ali1234 it was initially planned to write the android UI in full GL though!19:33
MisterNGeneralAntilles: most people prefer capacitive :P19:33
damien_lezjd: they are still relying on Xrender isn'tit ?19:33
thiago_homeone thing I don't like about capacitive is that I can't use it while wearing gloves19:33
GeneralAntillesMisterN, that's subjective.19:33
ali1234th0br0: false, it was initially planned to use a chip that didn't have 3d acceleration at all19:33
arjanezjd: one thing to realize also is that without the hw accell, you burn more cpu time -> more power19:33
* mikeleib likes the capacative19:33
fnordian900you need a meat stylus with capacitive19:33
* arjan hates capacitive19:33
th0br0ali1234: well, that's what i was told.19:33
MisterNi usually just remove the gloves19:33
arjanand my girlfriend hates it too, she just does not register on capacitive ;)19:33
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, capacitive is way too many compromises for marketing buzzwords.19:34
ali1234the first android prototypes used omap850 which has no 3d19:34
MisterNbut most of the time it's warm enough not to wear gloves19:34
ali1234they only changed that after the iphone came out19:34
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ezjdarjan: without hw gl, CPU will be more busy, but with HW GL, power may be consumed more when idle. It is always to be considered.19:34
arjanezjd: that's why you powergate the gpu when it's idle19:35
thiago_homeMisterN: it's cold enough here 5 months of the year that I'd be wearing gloves19:35
th0br0mh k, ali1234, thanks for that inforamtoin19:35
MisterNGeneralAntilles: i haven't really tried resistive, but why do you think it's better?19:35
damien_lezjd: again, are you sure your not using xorg's 2D drivers and Xrender?19:35
GeneralAntillesMisterN, more precise, broader range of input devices, better feel.19:35
GeneralAntillesMisterN, capacitive just doesn't make any sense at 266 ppi19:35
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ebassiezjd: if your system is idle and nothing sends updates to the GPU, the GPU goes in idle as well19:36
ShadowJKerjd: atleast omap3 switches sgx entirely off :)19:36
MisterNGeneralAntilles: i guess i would have to compare myself19:36
GeneralAntillesPrecision is the key19:36
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: broader range has to do with the fact that it's cheaper19:36
GeneralAntillesBut also my fingers KNOW how to use resistive19:36
MisterNwell with a glove you NEVER have precision19:36
ShadowJKSeems omap3 is even able to keep NEON unpowered while the arm core remains active19:36
ezjddamine_l: I believer 2D driver is used but it is NOT hw OpenGL driver (DRI for example)19:36
GeneralAntillesand that knowledge translates exactly ZERO for capacitive19:36
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: and more users has never been an argument for us19:36
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MisterNGeneralAntilles: my fingers on the other hand KNOW how to use capacitive19:36
ezjdebassi: GPU idel dosen't mean it is powered down.19:37
GeneralAntillesThe really stupidly simple answer is for Nokia to not let their marketing people completely drive product decisions19:37
GeneralAntillesand release at least one device with each type19:37
arjanezjd: for good silicon it does19:37
GeneralAntillesthen users can pick the kind they prefer19:37
arjanezjd: that's what power gates are for19:37
damien_lfor ARM soc, it's a matter of not enabling the PLLs driving and your 3D engine sucks no power19:37
GeneralAntillesand you don't alienate a large portion of your customer base.19:37
ebassiezjd: if it's idle it's general consensus that it should be powered down19:37
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: trust me, marketing doesn't drive product decisions19:37
ezjdarjan: It is a little off topic now.19:37
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: if they did, capacitive would've been here two years ago19:38
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, then why in the world would they choose to move to exclusive capacitive? :)19:38
ebassiezjd: if it doesn't, it's either a software issue (bad driver authors, no cookie for you) or an *impressively* bad hardware design19:38
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: I'm pretty sure they believe it's superior technology19:38
ezjdarjan: My original question is whether we should assume HW Open GL support.19:38
ebassiezjd: the former is fixable by chaining drivers authors to their desk; the latter is fixable by *not* buying that hardware19:38
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, I'm pretty sure they're idiots, then.19:38
ezjdpower management is another much bigger topic.19:39
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thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: right. So you know better than the qualified engineers in the #1 company in the largest market in the planet?19:39
arjanezjd: for now, meego assumes some form of gl support19:39
arjanezjd: at least, we tell application vendors that they can assume that19:39
MisterNattractive devices will have it anyways. :D19:39
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, I know both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages.19:39
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, neither is clearly superior.19:40
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GeneralAntillesthiago_home, I also know that I've been a Nokia customer for a long time and I've seen them make a lot of stupid decisions.19:40
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, I also know people are fallible.19:40
timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: big companies making stupid decisions? wow19:40
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ezjdarjan: If it is decided and no room for discussion, I will shut up.19:40
* arjan reads code that I wrote 2 years ago, and someone rewrote it in C++19:41
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, if you're asserting that Nokia's hardware engineers are completely infallible then I'll point you to their inability to prevent N900 USB ports from falling out enmass.19:41
arjanezjd: the thing is that app vendors WANT such functionality19:41
th0br0just stop this senseless trolling... there's no need to get insulting and it's completely out of the scope of this channel.19:41
* arjan shudders at this code ;(19:41
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: I'm not saying that they are infallible.19:41
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: I'm simply saying I have no reason to believe you over them.19:41
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, just that my opinion is clearly not comparable to theirs? ;)19:41
damien_larjan: that's because C++ is clearly superior19:41
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, yeah, not generally a productive way to hold discussions.19:42
ezjdarjan: next question is can MeeGo "fallback" to something with HW GL support?19:42
* GeneralAntilles moves on to something productive.19:42
MisterNdamien_l: which does not imply that all c++ code is good.19:42
BluesLeecan someone guess how many people here come from from maemo and how many from moblin community, what is the ratio?19:42
ezjdsorry w/o GL support19:42
arjanezjd: you mean, is there sw rendering with neon/sse accel?19:42
th0br0BluesLee: 10-15:1? at least, that's my personal impression.19:42
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: point being, I don't know you, I don't know your qualifications. For all I know, you could be a whiner.19:42
arjanthere is sw fallback, and at least for intel stuff we're working on sse accel for tha19:42
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, just realize that Nokia has lost at least one customer and extremely dedicated contributor with this particular decision.19:42
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: in any case, there's nothing I can do about the product decisions either, so the discussion has no point.19:42
MisterNBluesLee: i suppose many are from neither maemo nor moblin19:42
arjanthiago: GA is one of the maemo community ambassadors19:42
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, plenty of information about me is a google search away.19:43
ezjdezjd: something purely depends on CPU19:43
arjanAGRH they also made my code StudlyCapped19:43
GeneralAntillesAnyway, whatever, apologies for cluttering up the channel with inanity.19:43
BluesLeeth0br0: i didnt know that moblin has an active community, no forum, few posts in ml etc19:43
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th0br0BluesLee: nor did i :)the ration might be far worse actually. and most of those moblin guys are likely to be employed by intel (at least the ones in here)19:44
mikeleibcode StudlyCapped?19:44
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thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: well, then I can only hope that something will change your mind.19:45
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BluesLeeth0br0: we will see what will happen soon ...19:46
th0br0indeed BluesLee19:46
fnordian900GeneralAntilles, perhaps another device vendor shipping a meego platform will fill your  needs, then?19:47
GeneralAntillesfnordian900, one can only hope.19:48
GeneralAntillesfnordian900, we'll see how much differentiation comes into play, though.19:48
* ShadowJK realistically expects it'd take 3-4 generations before the screen becomes as awesome as N900 again :D19:48
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ShadowJKWell it took that long for the screen to become responsive and most of all consistent19:49
fnordian900it is a good screen on the 90019:50
RST38hFunny, I do not consider it very consistent. Feels like a minefield, never know when it accidentally clicks when scrolling19:50
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ezjdthe general SW fallback will Mesa in X in the framework is depending on GL command, which doesn't provide performance. Are you saying SW fallback is aother framework?19:52
arjanezjd: mesa fallback performance depends on how much your cpu vendor invests in optimizing it19:52
arjansse for intel, neon for arm etc19:52
timeless_mbpso, fwiw, i've set up an mxr for repo.moblin and git.moblin for people to play w/19:54
damien_lmesa fallback with a simple fragment program is 1 frame every 2s on x86 :p19:54
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ezjdActually I am thinking a Qt framework not depending OpenGL, which is basically SW solution not to a specific chip19:58
thiago_homeQt has a raster engine too19:59
tripzeroi have a combustion engine19:59
ezjdyes, that is what exactly I am pointing to :)19:59
tripzeroi upgraded from Qt 4.0's "steam engine"20:00
thiago_homeon X11, it has 3 engines actually. The third is the native (X11) one.20:00
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ezjdBut Harmattan compisitor is based on QGLWidget which is tight to OpenGL and as a fundanmental module, it implies every part of UI will depending on OpenGL20:01
thiago_homebut the Harmattan compositor is designed to run a specific device20:01
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thiago_homethe rest of the applications don't need to depend on GL20:02
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ezjdYes. As Arjan told me that it will the base of MeeGo.20:02
ezjdOther application can be redered to a back buffer by raster engine but eventually OpenGL involves  becauses of compositer20:04
thiago_homebut if the hardware has no OpenGL, you won't use the compositor20:05
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* CosmoHill yawns20:07
ezjdyes It depends. If window manager uses/is compositor, it will and it is generally true20:07
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ezjdI probably need to look into KWin, for which opengl is optional.20:10
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thiago_homethere is no shortage of window managers around20:12
ezjdI gotta go. Talk to you later.20:12
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timeless_mbp hey20:35
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timeless_mbpwhy is chromium in moblin?20:35
MisterNwhy not?20:36
CosmoHillwhat is chromium?20:36
Votana browser20:37
rzrand a spyware :)20:37
Votannot really20:37
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: same reason dillo is in debian i guess20:37
CosmoHillto give people choice?20:37
timeless_mbpCosmoHill: most companies that make hardware don't offer choice20:38
timeless_mbpdid your last tv ask you if you wanted to use KDE or Gnome?20:38
timeless_mbpmine didn't20:38
CosmoHilli thought we were talking about software20:39
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timeless_mbpCosmoHill: well20:48
timeless_mbpmaemo and moblin are closer to platforms for hardware vendors20:48
timeless_mbpi'm assuming that the software i indexed was roughly equivalent to 'core'20:49
timeless_mbpas opposed to 'maemo extras'20:50
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CosmoHilli think i know what you mean20:51
mukiexSeriously, I woulda gone crazy if Nokia had just announced "Maemo for other devices"20:51
CosmoHillyou get to choose what extras you have, but not what parts of the core you have20:51
mukiexBut Maemo for other devices + x86? Ummmm... Score?20:51
timeless_mbpmukiex: Mer.20:52
Stskeepsmukiex: this is a better way.20:52
CosmoHillanyone heard of the LG Pop?20:52
mukiextimeless_mbp : Sadly, the only shot of Mer I saw was incredibly underwelming (0.17 on a Touchbook with eff all installed)20:52
Stskeepsiteratively would be very difficult.20:52
CosmoHillLG seem to make cheep touch screen phones20:52
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mukiexStskeeps: Are there any good Mer builds shown on youtube?20:54
Stskeepsmukiex: sec, got a cool one on n900..20:55
Stskeepsscroll down to the one20:56
Stskeepsbut, meego is where the action is now.20:56
mukiexPeople have GOT to stop showing Mer with nothing installed >_<20:56
mukiexWhen's the first test build/pre-alpha for MeeGo arrive?20:57
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Stskeepsmukiex: weakest point of mer, agreed20:58
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mukiexI wonder if there'll be any attempts to get AndroidExecutionEnvironment on it.20:59
Stskeepsthe ubuntu stuff?20:59
mukiexI mean, it couldn't hurt ;)21:00
mukiexOf course, that depends entirely on what the overhead is.21:00
Stskeepsgo read the canonical guys blog.. he got ideological scruples and never released the code21:00
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* CosmoHill boots the ubuntu moblin remix21:02
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mukiexCan't seem to find the post, Stskeeps21:02
Stskeepsmukiex: sec21:03
Stskeeps(it is not speeded up.)21:04
wind-riderStskeeps: will Plasma Mobile be used in meego when it is stable and mature?21:06
Stskeepswind-rider: i have no authority at all over meego21:06
CosmoHillhmm something isn't right21:06
CosmoHillusing the ubuntu moblin remix, the fastest thing is the mouse cursor21:06
wind-riderno, but I thought you might know it21:06
wind-riderStskeeps: because you created the channel21:07
Stskeepsnop, sorry, i don't know much about meego contents or plans21:07
Stskeepswind-rider: just cos i was first person here and the channel exploded21:07
wind-riderStskeeps: hehe21:07
Stskeeps1 to 300 in a couple of hours21:07
wind-riderStskeeps: impressive21:08
Terje1wind-river, is Plasma Mobile the KDE-thingy?21:08
wind-riderTerje1: indeed21:08
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fnordian900lol. wind-river is an insult i think :)21:09
wind-riderTerje1: Plasma has several variants targeted at several form factors21:09
wind-riderTerje1: a variant targeted at touch-screen smart phones is developed now21:10
wind-riderTerje1: never mind about that typo21:10
Terje1wind-rider, ok, sorry. Any reason why Plasma would be taken into use?21:11
thiago_homeif it's good, why not?21:12
thiago_homebut there's no decision to do it21:12
wind-riderTerje1: it can be used as "home screen" with applets on it21:12
mukiexStskeeps : Oh no, I meant the Canonical never releasing the Android code. I saw the vid, it was pretty neat21:12
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Stskeepsmukiex: oh, sec21:13
mukiexHere's hoping MeeGo gets 3D drivers for Tegra 2 by June/July ^_^21:13
Terje1wind-rider, wouldn't hold my breath.21:13
ShadowJKmukiex, even the meego website says that falls to nvidia ;)21:13
wind-riderTerje1: besides normal applets like a calendar or the weather, the user can also send applets from other devices over the network to control the media player on that device for example21:13
mukiexWell, if they support OpenSolaris on the x86 side, hopefully they'll support MeeGo on ARM. Worst-case, hopefully someone can finagle their DSP/3D driver on Ubuntu to work.21:14
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thiago_homemukiex: usually, when someone makes a device and gets a video card, they hire a company to make the drivers that are good21:15
Terje1wind-rider, are the different Plasma variants somehow compatible?21:15
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wind-riderTerje1: yes21:16
wind-riderTerje1: plasma can also be used for system notifications etc21:16
CosmoHillyou know the "join the community" man with his arms in the air? that;'s how i feel about being online21:17
wind-riderthiago_home: did I forget some killer feature? :)21:17
Terje1wind-rider, I'll wait eagerly for being able to send applets from my telly to my phone. :-)21:18
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wind-riderTerje1: here is an example21:19
wind-riderTerje1: a notification applet (in the video it shows a "New Mail" message) and a job applet (shows the progress of a file copying job) are sent from a desktop to a netbook21:20
Terje1wind-rider, neat.21:22
Terje1Being able to transport an RSS reader applet from phone to big television…21:22
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wind-riderTerje1: indeed, but also getting a notification when your work computer has finished downloading some large file while sitting on the couch21:23
CosmoHillmoblin is pretty21:24
wind-riderTerje1: also a Media Center variant of plasma is in the works, but the priority of that is lower than Plasma Mobile21:24
wind-riderthiago_home, Terje1: do you know who makes decisions about if / when plasma will be used in Meego?21:25
CosmoHillwhat is mutter and why is it eating my processor?21:25
thiago_homewind-rider: I don't think there's such a group to make that decision yet21:25
thiago_homewind-rider: if it goes on technical terms, it actually is up to the plasma developers to make a story for their app21:26
thiago_homemake it good, performant and not use too much batter21:26
Terje1wind-rider, the only decision makers in Meego are the two announced ones.21:26
thiago_homeon my system, someone left an animation running, so Plasma wakes up 60 times per second21:26
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wind-riderthiago_home: you mean the plasma developers should lobby for plasma?21:27
Terje1It's always the case that getting UI to work in small devices is really hard work.21:27
thiago_homeno, I mean that the plasma developers have to make a good app first21:27
thiago_homethen lobby21:27
wind-riderthiago_home: ok, that's clear21:27
* timeless_mbp looks for Terje021:28
thiago_homeI doubt MeeGo would take Plasma if the devs there didn't want it21:28
wind-riderthiago_home: i hope they do not come to late because Plasma Mobile is not finished yet21:28
Terje1timeless, let me know when you find him.21:28
thiago_homePlasma Netbook is quite advanced though21:28
ShadowJKis plasma that new kde4 thing?21:29
wind-riderthiago_home: with "too late" i mean that there is already another shell chosen21:29
leinirTerje1: Well, the UI working in small devices is something that's already being worked on for Plasma, there's a plasma-desktop, plasma-netbook and a plasma-mobile, which are all looking quite nice :)21:29
timeless_mbpTerje1: you need a more unique nick ;-)21:29
leinirShadowJK: Yup :)21:29
ShadowJKI tried it in kde4 once.. it ran too slow on Q9550 :)21:29
wind-riderleinir: I thought Plasma Mobile was still in the works?21:29
wind-riderShadowJK: there was a problem with graphics card drivers some time ago21:29
Terje1timeless, nah, I've got a perfectly good first name.21:29
arachnistShadowJK: i run kde on my 1.2GHz core2duo + intel x3100 graphics laptop21:30
leinirwind-rider: It is, but it isn't just a pipe dream :) (just you wait until the end of Tokamak4 which is going on right now, it's nifty ;) )21:30
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* timeless_mbp considers begging to differ21:30
arachnistShadowJK: and guess what, it's smooth as butter21:30
leinirSysinfo for 'gamma-orionis': Linux running KDE Development Platform 4.4.00 (KDE 4.4.0) "release 224", CPU: Intel(R) Core 2 Duo CPU     T7500  @ 2.20GHz at 2200 MHz (4388 bogomips), HD: 158/195GB, RAM: 3566/3951MB, 259 proc's, 38.8min up21:30
leinirand plasma's as arachnist says smooth as butter :)21:30
leinir(same gfx)21:30
wind-riderleinir: I heard of Tokamak 4 indeed, but I have not seen much blogs or youtube postings about it yet21:31
ShadowJKarachnist, ah, I had huge problems with KDE in general back then. Like the fps in konsole was about a half, with one core at 100% :)21:31
leinirwind-rider: that's because today's mostly presentations :)21:31
ShadowJKone half an fps21:31
wind-riderleinir: yeah, but also over the last two months21:31
leinirShadowJK: ouch, nasty :)21:31
Terje1wind-rider, I don't know the situation, but the plasma developers might also want to take a look at what kind of dependencies they have. KDE libraries have a huge footprint.21:31
leinirwind-rider: You can only post so many videos of moving widgets around with a stylus before it gets boring ;)21:32
wind-riderleinir: I meant a video of the things it differed from the plasma-desktop variant for example :)21:33
leiniroh right :)21:33
wind-riderleinir: plasma-netbook has a different interface than plasma-desktop21:33
leinirIt does, and it's really swish :)21:33
leiniri'd really like that on my touchbook ;)21:34
wind-riderleinir: and i was expecting plasma-mobile to have something like that to21:34
wind-riderto / too21:34
leinir*nods* Yeah :) Well, they're working on it at T4 - some thirty people with a lot of breadth working all over, afair they've got some intel and nokians there too... but that's just afair, that may well be completely off ;)21:35
StskeepsT4, btw?21:35
w00t_tokamak 421:35
leinirStskeeps: Tokamak4, the fourth Plasma developer sprint :)21:35
leinirThey're pretty hard core meetups, biggest sprints that KDE hosts :)21:35
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wind-riderleinir: it's a pity those meetings are always somewhere far away...21:36
w00t_wind-rider: it's a geographical impossibility to get them close to everyone21:37
w00t_such is the peril of distributed contributors21:37
wind-riderw00t_: i know21:37
leinirwind-rider: Seriously, you're in Holland... You're in a single flight away from most of them :)21:37
leinirT4 is in Nürnberg :)21:37
wind-riderok, it looks far21:38
leinirIf you've never been outside Holland, i'm sure it does ;)21:38
wind-riderleinir: going to Nurnberg for one afternoon / evening?21:38
DocScrutinizerheh, it's not that bad here :-)21:38
leinirwind-rider: s/afternoon/weekend ;)21:38
wind-riderleinir: they have open day on monday afternoon / evening I read21:39
timeless_mbpjust don't eat the food21:39
leinirThey are there right now :)21:39
timeless_mbpyou might get sick21:39
* timeless_mbp suffered in Paris21:39
w00t_timeless_mbp: heh, what did you eat?21:40
timeless_mbpcold milk21:40
wind-riderleinir: I know they already started, it's just that i don't think i belong there for a whole weekend when i don't commit that often to kde21:40
timeless_mbpafter i had coke(defizzed) and saltines(roughly)21:41
leinirwind-rider: it sounds like you think that coding is what sprints are for... ;)21:41
* DocScrutinizer googles Tokamak421:41
wind-riderleinir: yes, or at least for the people who do the most for kde21:42
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timeless_mbpleinir: the sprint i was at involved quite a bit of coding21:42
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timeless_mbpalthough there were also some discussions and planning21:42
leinirwind-rider: Nope :) Code is the smallest product from dev sprints - they're mainly for planning and the sort of discussions that just don't work on IRC :)21:43
leinirSure, there's coding, but that's not really the main thing :)21:43
timeless_mbpwe also did some reviews and pushing21:43
leinirYeah :)21:43
wind-riderleinir: i report bugs on a regular basis and did some feature improvement commits (for koffice and kjots), but it seems like very little compared to what the people who are there do now21:43
* timeless_mbp needs to try to finish an rsync someday21:44
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wind-riderleinir: so that makes me hesitate to go to such things21:44
leinirYou really shouldn't hesitate just because your commit count isn't so big :)21:44
leinirThere's more to a community member than commit counts ;)21:44
timeless_mbpwind-rider: fwiw, the sprint i went to was for mercurial21:44
timeless_mbpand i'm a minor guy there21:44
timeless_mbpeven given that i was only around for half the time, i think my presence was valued21:45
wind-ridertimeless_mbp: ok, that sounds nice :)21:45
DocScrutinizerhmm, they're hiding in Northtown of Nuernberg :-P21:45
DocScrutinizerlooks like Suse/Novel location21:45
wind-riderleinir, timeless_mbp: well, then maybe I'll come next time :)21:46
leinirwind-rider: *nods* :)21:46
leinirThere's plenty of sprints to attend, really, choose your pick :)21:46
leinirKOffice, for one, has an annual one that you might wanna attend :)21:47
wind-riderleinir: KDE-PIM too, which was a few feeks ago21:48
leinir*nods* Yup :)21:48
wind-riderleinir: brb (~15 minutes)21:48
leinirno probs, i'll go make a cuppa ;)21:49
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leinirmmm... tea :)22:02
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wind-riderleinir: i'm back :)22:10
leinirWooh! \o/22:11
wind-riderleinir: btw, your nick sounds familiar to me, are you a kde developer?22:12
leiniri am part of the amarok dev squad, and one of the people behind gluon :)22:12
wind-riderleinir: ok, great :) i love amarok22:13
wind-riderleinir: i heard of gluon, but i don't use it (yet)22:14
wind-riderit is a graphics framework, isn't it?22:14
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leinirIt's a game creation and distribution system :)22:14
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leinirNo worries, you'll hear a lot more about it in the next few months ;)22:15
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* CosmoHill shalkes fist at ubuntu moblin22:17
wind-riderleinir: i see, but I hope it will be actually used, instead of becoming "another framework"22:17
wind-riderleinir: i don't say at all that you are doing useless work, but i had the idea that there are more frameworks around?22:18
leinirWell, it's more than just a framework :)22:18
CosmoHillhow do i reboot moblin22:18
* CosmoHill blushes for asking a stupid question22:19
leinirThere's plenty of game creation frameworks, but we're doing a lot more :)22:19
leinirCosmoHill: sudo /sbin/reboot? ;)22:19
CosmoHillI'm so use to command line22:19
CosmoHillGUI is weird to me22:19
ali1234CosmoHill: press power button to turn off, or reboot from command line, they are the only options22:19
RST38hno ctrl-alt-del?22:20
CosmoHillthere is always ctrl+alt+del22:20
CosmoHillit's written into /etc/inittab22:20
ali1234but X windows can block it22:20
* MikeJB wonders if that ctrl+alt+del thing ever messes with someone who switched from Windows... :P22:21
CosmoHilli think it's caught me out a few times22:22
CosmoHilli think once i was using windows and linux, opened the task manager..oh crap, wrong keyboard22:22
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CosmoHillmy install seems to be very slow and laggy22:24
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damien_lCosmoHill: you press the power button22:26
MikeJBCosmoHill: Unfortunately, as a corollary to Moore's Law, apps get *more* bloated by about triple every two years, which outdoes the doubling of transistors. By 2030, we will barely be able to use anything on non-Alienware computers.22:26
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RST38hBy 2030 we will inject 'em with the syringe22:27
CosmoHillI'm running a proper laptop22:27
MikeJBSo although computers will get cheaper, we'll have to pay more and more to run things properly :P22:27
lcukon your lap?22:27
lcukor cheating and using it on a desk22:27
CosmoHilli'm hot enough as it is22:28
RST38hThe cost of a usable computer has stayed more or less the same over the years22:28
* MikeJB is using laptops as advertized. Linux really only uses the fan if you run Flash.22:28
lcukdo they heat up that much?22:28
lcuki thought the new ones ran cooler22:28
RST38hYou still have to spend at least $1200 for a usable laptop22:28
CosmoHillmine is a mid 2008 philips22:28
MikeJBCosmoHill: HP? Just by running into fellow Pavillion-users, those things heat up a lot and require lots of fan useage.22:28
MikeJBOh, philips22:28
lcukRST38h, usable as in laptop for gaming?22:28
RST38hlcuk: Well, things got weird with the temperature22:28
lcukwhich i dont see the point of22:28
timelessnah, usable macbooks start at less than $1200 :)22:29
CosmoHilli was backing up my powerbook the other day and it went upto 68'C22:29
RST38hlcuk: Current crop of laptops will slow down the CPU to stay inside the thermal envelope22:29
lcuktimeless, agreed, and thinkpads are reasonable too22:29
RST38hlcuk: Usable as in laptop for office, studio, etc22:29
lcukRST38h, yeah - everything does22:29
lcukour n900s are key there22:29
CosmoHillwould you like my specs?22:29
RST38hlcuk: Well the problem is that it often slows down the cpu so much that it becomes no faster than a much older laptop22:30
lcukhow will you read things?22:30
ShadowJKthere are macbooks <$1200?22:30
lcukyeah rst22:30
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MikeJBI don't do any 3D gaming because my Intel integrated graphics card on my laptop from several years ago doesn't really handle 3D that well... but even I envy some gaming computers/laptops. I see them as "virtualization machines"... something only a nerd would even know the definition to. ;)22:30
lcuki have my thinkpad locked to 600 or 800mhz22:30
CosmoHillmy friend;s flatmate has killed THREE macbooks in a YEAR22:30
timelessi question "usable" wrt thinkpad input methods22:30
RST38hlcuk: My poor R500 slows down to almost the netbook performance (bu lasts 6+ hours)22:30
lcukMikeJB, the older cards surely handled 3d fine, it was when they moved over to pixel shaders etc22:30
timelessimpressive, how?22:30
RST38hShadowJK: macbook is not a computer, it is an object of lust22:31
lcuktimeless, yeah im happy with kb and plugin mouse tho22:31
MikeJBlcuk: I guess it might be able to handle 3D fine when the card came out, but it definitely doesn't handle today's 3D without lag or settings turned off.22:31
lcuki know the macs give a better kb22:31
lcukbut this is certainly happily usabl22:31
MikeJBI have a feeling a non-Intel might have stood up to time a little more.22:31
MikeJBI mean, I love Intel cpus, but this graphics card just isn't good.22:31
RST38hlcuk: Apple BT keyboard still does not work with Maemo5 though (22:31
lcukMikeJB, 3d to me involves polygons and textures22:31
MikeJBI couldn't imagine myself using a non-Intel cpu on a desktop or laptop22:31
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lcukbut thats not enough now22:32
CosmoHillMikeJB: my powerbook used a G4 1.67Ghz :)22:32
lcukRST38h, where is the fail there22:32
lcuki suppose i should try it22:32
MikeJB(Yes, I know there's Intel people here, I don't intend to insult them. I wish I had an i7 in my laptop right about now.)22:32
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CosmoHillused little power but gets as hot as hell22:32
RST38hlcuk: updated Bluez no longer handshakes with it22:32
timelessmacbooks start @99922:32
RST38hlcuk: god knows why22:32
timelessmbp's @119922:32
CosmoHilldon't forget student discounts22:32
timelesswhich is less than 1200 :)22:33
lcukRST38h, anyone put any documentation online22:33
RST38hlcuk: if you can somehow fix it, would be nice =)22:33
lcukwell i have the hardware22:33
RST38hlcuk: what for?22:33
* CosmoHill blinks22:33
MikeJBCosmoHill: student discounts are $100 tops unless you're talking very high end. At the top they double that to about $200.22:33
lcukill fire it up when i have some time22:33
CosmoHilldid MS just buy yahoo?22:33
lcukerrr not documentation22:33
MikeJBSo Macs *still* outprice competition.22:33
lcukobservations/tests etc22:33
MikeJBCosmoHill: No, they bought the search division. Kind of.22:33
lcuki wouldnt know what im looking for22:33
MikeJBYahoo now defines itself as a portal.22:33
lcukso if someone else had something setup i would run over it22:33
MikeJBWhich is what it originally was waaaaaaaay back.22:33
lcukand report back and see what we do and dont have22:33
RST38hToday you buy a Mac, tomorrow you start reading GQ.22:34
timelessmikejb: a friend got me a discount on a mac a few years back22:34
MikeJBCosmoHill: Basically, Yahoo uses Bing for search. Try to understand it past that and your head will exploe.22:34
lcukMonday you buy a turtleneck sweater and jeans22:34
timelessit basically got me a free cinema display22:34
RST38hlcuk: BLACK sweater22:34
lcukwhatever color lol22:35
MikeJBtimeless: Well, I looked into student discounts for my sister who wants a Macbook, and both my university and hers don't discount a laptop more than $100 unless you want the top-end model.22:35
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MikeJBIn fact, they use the exact same discount, making me thing it's standard to $10022:35
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MikeJBHonestly, desktops are dead. I'd prefer a really bulky 17'' laptop with a large external monitor to use with dual-montior work at home rather than a desktop.22:36
CosmoHillI'm using two laptops, and amp and a sky / sat box22:36
CosmoHillwhy is my bedroom so hot >.<22:36
MikeJB15:32:25 < CosmoHill> used little power but gets as hot as hell22:37
MikeJBThat's why.22:37
CosmoHillaparantly my ubuntumoblin laptop doesn't have a battery22:37
MikeJBThere's a reason why server rooms need cooling. :P22:37
CosmoHillthe light says it's fully charged22:37
CosmoHilloh yes and my server, forgot about that22:37
RST38hubuntu moblin remix should probably be called Mublin22:38
CosmoHilli think mublin doesnt like my laptop22:38
b-man17better than tabuntu xD22:38
MikeJBueegoo (pronounced "weego")22:39
CosmoHillMeeGo, YouGo? WeeGo! (yay!)22:40
MikeJBwhy did I put "goo?"22:40
MikeJBI think I'll accidentally call this meegoo :P22:40
mukiexI'd rather have a Tegra2/OMAP4 tablet device with a Pixel Qi screen 'n an HDMI output ;)22:40
CosmoHillcps it's squishy22:40
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MikeJBSo are there any meego devices announced yet?22:41
lcukdo we know anything about the number of employed maintaers for the base packages?22:41
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CosmoHillMikeJB: i don't think there is even a meego yet22:41
mukiexThere's that one device from LG announced, but with a custom GUI there's almost no point22:41
CosmoHillLH pop?22:42
MikeJBI hate custom GUIs to various open OSes.22:42
MikeJBThat are almost always proprietary to one vendor.22:42
CosmoHillit would be nice to have one GUI so you could go from nokia to LG to sony and always know your way about22:43
microlithCosmoHill: yeah, but they hate that. "differentiaion" they call it.22:43
CosmoHillit would be nice but you they want to be different22:44
MikeJBmukiex: Engadget! I tried to follow that site on RSS, but they release about 20 articles a day. It's almost impossible to keep up with it. It's like every single phone, tablet, computer, etc., ever announced is on that site.22:44
CosmoHillthen again i was  looking at the LG pop and thinking "iphone copy cat"22:44
microlithMikeJB: they are a gadget site, after all...22:44
mukiexMikeJB: Yeah, it's the only Netvibes window with 40 entries I have ^_^22:45
MikeJBYeah, I had to delete the RSS feed and just remember to check the site from time to time. It's annoying when I can "clear" the others from my reader, but not keep up with Endgadget.22:46
* MikeJB wonders the smallest device size could be for an i7-running tablet or netbook.22:46
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microlithMikeJB: well, the smallest is whatever is necessary to contain the heatsink22:47
MisterNMikeJB: why do you need a power-guzzling desktop cpu in there?22:48
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ali1234imagine a N900, with a UPS and a 6" heatsink stuck to it. it would be that size22:49
* CosmoHill sighs22:49
MikeJBMisterN: To run power-guzzling desktop apps on a really tiny screen? :P22:49
CosmoHillmubin seems laggy :(22:49
MisterNMikeJB: most apps are not really cpu-hungry22:50
ali1234CosmoHill: you probably don't have the "right" graphics22:50
CosmoHillmutter is using 85% processor22:50
MisterNwhat is "mutter"?22:50
ali1234as it will if you don't have the right graphics22:50
CosmoHilli have no idea22:50
MikeJBIt probably also requires an i7 to run Vista without lag. ;)22:50
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ali1234you basically need intel cpu and intel graphics to run moblin22:51
MisterNMikeJB: it should run meego, not vista.22:51
CosmoHillali1234: it's ubuntu moblin remix22:51
MisterNali1234: but not to run meego, i hope!22:51
ali1234CosmoHill: well, god knows what canonical have done it it22:52
CosmoHilli like your answer22:52
MikeJBUbuntu is *not* very upstream-friendly when compared to Debian or Fedora.22:53
MikeJBI'm surprised they keep the double-panel of GNOME on their standard desktop release.22:53
timelessi'd hardly call debian "upstream friendly"22:54
CosmoHillffs damn this22:54
CosmoHilli can't turn my wireless on22:54
* CosmoHill stabs it22:54
CosmoHillnow it turns on22:54
MikeJBCosmoHill: proper driver?22:54
CosmoHillyeah it's an intel 5200 wireless n card22:55
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CosmoHilli can pick up my friend's wifi from here22:57
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CosmoHillhe live down the street22:58
lcukCosmoHill, you can pick it up, but do you routinely use it?22:59
CosmoHillnever used it22:59
CosmoHillit's listed as one of the networks within range22:59
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* CosmoHill noms an apple turnover23:05
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CosmoHilli think ubuntu screwed up the langages too23:19
CosmoHillyou end up ????? instead of letters23:19
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* CosmoHill downloads the nvidia driver23:22
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* CosmoHill shakes his fist at CSI23:28
CosmoHilljaguars do not sounds  like that23:28
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* lcuk makes a fist shaking gui in visual basic to track the errors in csi for CosmoHill 23:29
CosmoHilli need to logout of moblin to login as command line only23:29
CosmoHillah ha, take that x1123:31
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arjanCosmoHill: huh? ctrl-alt-f1 gives you a console23:38
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CosmoHillit crashed :(23:39
CosmoHillalso why didn't i think of that >.<23:39
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CosmoHillpressing ctrl+alt+F# crashes the computer23:44
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CosmoHillI've just started gnome inside ubuntu moblin23:59

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