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| th0br0 | mh... 16:30 UTC? sounds nice | 00:32 |
|---|---|---|
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| sh0gun | Hola! | 00:35 |
| simula_ | hey | 00:35 |
| slaine_ | gah, fecking firewall | 00:36 |
| sh0gun | Do you also like the greatest design of N900? Or better say: NO DESIGN style? | 00:36 |
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| sh0gun | Black brick with no design, what more could we want? | 00:36 |
| th0br0 | bye everyone. | 00:37 |
| sh0gun | Do you think that next meego device is going to be similar? Or it is going to be for masses, so designed? | 00:37 |
| sh0gun | bye | 00:37 |
| rsalveti | probably for the masses | 00:37 |
| vmlemon_ | It meets a certain aesthetic, I guess | 00:37 |
| rsalveti | don't think we'll have a real keyboard for the next device | 00:38 |
| rsalveti | probably capacitive screen and so on | 00:38 |
| * vmlemon_ is one of the few who actually prefer functionality to prettiness | 00:38 | |
| * arjan will miss the keyboard and resistive screen | 00:38 | |
| vmlemon_ | *prefers | 00:38 |
| * simula_ likes his keyboard | 00:38 | |
| * mikeleib will nots | 00:38 | |
| mikeleib | s/nots/not/ | 00:38 |
| sh0gun | keyboard on N900 seems small and tiny, but its usage is just great | 00:39 |
| sh0gun | no typos, fast typing | 00:39 |
| * rsalveti don't care about prettiness | 00:39 | |
| rsalveti | yeah | 00:39 |
| * simula_ considers his n900 a mini-netbook | 00:39 | |
| rsalveti | one of the best keyboards we have | 00:39 |
| rsalveti | I used to have a e71, and that was already a great keyboard | 00:39 |
| MisterN | arjan: i can understand missing a keyboard. but missing a resistive touchscreen?? | 00:40 |
| rsalveti | and now with the n900 I'm also very comfortable with it | 00:40 |
| rsalveti | guess that resistive is easier to work with stylus | 00:40 |
| sh0gun | yes, but more and more people want to use the fingers | 00:41 |
| rsalveti | some websites aren't so easy to work with in a capacitive screen | 00:41 |
| rsalveti | yeah, true | 00:41 |
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| vmlemon_ | Heh, good luck trying to use a capacitive touch screen with gloves, I guess | 00:42 |
| sh0gun | and capacitive is far more sensitive, reviewers wrote so many pretty words about N900 screen, that its almost sensitive like capacitive, but it isnt | 00:42 |
| sh0gun | I dont use gloves | 00:42 |
| * vmlemon_ doesn't either, but threw it out as a wildcard | 00:42 | |
| vmlemon_ | Although I can't really say much, given that all the handsets that I've had have had standard ITU-T keypads, and have been non-touch-enabled | 00:43 |
| sh0gun | anyway, I would like to ask, what about invisible shield on n900 screen? Does it make the sensitivity worse? | 00:43 |
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| Suurorca | hard to say, I just hate those in general :P | 00:44 |
| sh0gun | hmm | 00:44 |
| simula_ | sh0gun, sensitivity seems to be about the same, but it's not as silky... kinda of a pain | 00:44 |
| simula_ | the stylus sticks on the plastic a bit | 00:44 |
| sh0gun | ah, bad | 00:45 |
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| sh0gun | but some guys from the discussions said that with invisible shield it more sliding | 00:46 |
| sh0gun | even with stylus | 00:46 |
| sh0gun | and now I see that stylus sticks a bit on it | 00:46 |
| sh0gun | opposite meanings :/ | 00:46 |
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| simula_ | i got the one with holes in it to fit the microphone and user facing camera... i can't speak to every cover | 00:46 |
| sh0gun | every has these holes, but these holes are far away from touchscreen itself, how does it affect usage of stylus? | 00:49 |
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| simula_ | i think some of the covers don't have holes | 00:55 |
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| Tereska | hello again :) | 01:01 |
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| Tereska | is plainText supports utf-8 characters? | 01:01 |
| Tereska | i've done something like this: ui->plainTextEdit->setPlainText(HTTPreply->readAll() ); | 01:01 |
| Tereska | and i have buggy chars where utf-8 chars are | 01:02 |
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| spud_ | kdjf | 01:16 |
| ptl | really? | 01:17 |
| ptl | I doubt it! | 01:17 |
| spud_ | Q('.'Q) | 01:17 |
| ptl | if you say so... | 01:18 |
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| auke | tennis kirby? | 01:18 |
| spud_ | woof | 01:18 |
| spud_ | ( . )( . ) | 01:19 |
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| auke | two oranges? | 01:19 |
| spud_ | satsumas | 01:20 |
| range | Yeah, but they fell from the truck. | 01:20 |
| Tm_T | nice topic for this channel | 01:20 |
| auke | a bit off-topic | 01:20 |
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| lbt | auke: PAM? | 01:24 |
| lbt | seriously? | 01:24 |
| auke | as in, remove it? | 01:25 |
| lbt | yes | 01:25 |
| auke | it's not removed. we did try to reduce the amount of stuff we use from it. | 01:26 |
| auke | might revisit that entire story again several times :) | 01:26 |
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| auke | we'll probably need it to do fingerprint reader support, for instance | 01:27 |
| * lbt giggles | 01:27 | |
| lbt | sorry, straight face for the marketing guys now... | 01:27 |
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| lbt | anyhoo | 01:28 |
| lbt | I was more concerned about ldap type support | 01:28 |
| auke | have you ever looked at PAM from a performance point of view? :) | 01:28 |
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| lbt | no | 01:28 |
| javispedro | logins/second? :) | 01:28 |
| auke | syscalls per authentication, for instance | 01:28 |
| auke | files read from disc | 01:28 |
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| lbt | that's interesting | 01:29 |
| lbt | I just sent off a mail on this | 01:29 |
| lbt | and noticed you were here :) | 01:29 |
| lbt | I did wonder where it mattered | 01:29 |
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| auke | when we started working on fast boot prototypes, we noticed that for some stuff, 80% of our straces were linux-PAM stuff :) | 01:30 |
| lbt | mmm | 01:31 |
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| lbt | so you made PAM faster? | 01:31 |
| auke | well, there are worse things | 01:31 |
| lbt | heh | 01:31 |
| auke | ahaha :) | 01:31 |
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| lbt | I have to wonder at the cost of a 5 second boot | 01:31 |
| lbt | as I mention in my email | 01:31 |
| lbt | I want my device to boot in the 0.01sec it takes my finger to swipe | 01:32 |
| lbt | and I booted my N900 ~10 times in 3 months | 01:32 |
| lbt | and I'm a hacker/dev | 01:32 |
| lbt | with a pre-production unit | 01:32 |
| lbt | now if it really affects day to day usage | 01:33 |
| lbt | then that's different | 01:33 |
| lcuk | add to that the time to restart all applications | 01:34 |
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| lbt | auke: maybe try and reply to Marius and I some more about this 'upstream' thing. I have to go now. Catch you over the w'end I hope :) | 01:38 |
| lbt | 'night all | 01:38 |
| simula_ | night | 01:38 |
| rsalveti | night | 01:38 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Tm_T, I'm personally pulling for them to file a big lawsuit against Nokia/Intel. | 01:41 |
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| GeneralAntilles | auke, Tegra sucks. | 01:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | auke, OMAP all the way. :P | 01:41 |
| trip0 | why does tegra suck? | 01:41 |
| trip0 | i personally like fast graphics | 01:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | trip0, historically because it was just an ARM11 with a big GPU and lots of fanboys | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Now because it's NVIDIA and they hate open source. | 01:42 |
| trip0 | ahh, yes, that would be an issue to take with it then :P | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | On the other side you have TI | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which delivers a solid piece of hardware with fantastic Linux support that is improving everyday from the company that appears to actually /get/ open source. | 01:43 |
| trip0 | true | 01:43 |
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| vmlemon_ | Except when they threaten to sue people who modify calculator firmware ;) | 01:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | vmlemon_, different division. ;) | 01:45 |
| vmlemon_ | Although that's by the by | 01:45 |
| vmlemon_ | Indeed | 01:45 |
| * GeneralAntilles <3's his TI-89ti, though. | 01:45 | |
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| vmlemon_ | They do make some impressive hardware otherwise | 01:47 |
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| kkr | hello hello | 01:58 |
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| Blice | Dell spokespeople announced that the Mini 5 won't ship with the Android 1.6 build that we've seen so far -- instead, they say, it'll be running "something newer" | 02:21 |
| Blice | hmmmm | 02:21 |
| Blice | ORLY | 02:21 |
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| trip0 | Blice, like meego? | 02:23 |
| Blice | I hope so! | 02:23 |
| trip0 | haha | 02:24 |
| Blice | They haven't said anything else, they won't say what "something newer" is | 02:24 |
| Blice | They have been demoing it with Android 1.6 forever though. | 02:24 |
| Blice | and by forever I mean the past few months | 02:25 |
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| koupsa | an idea...it would be nice if meego have a parental control | 04:59 |
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| koupsa | no? :( | 05:23 |
| wiretapped | koupsa: gtfo | 05:26 |
| wiretapped | i mean, define parental control | 05:27 |
| wiretapped | unless you just mean a censoring http proxy, in which case kthxbye | 05:27 |
| koupsa | like iphone an easy way for my old mother | 05:28 |
| * microlith boots moblin on his aspire one | 05:30 | |
| microlith | um wow | 05:31 |
| microlith | that was fast | 05:31 |
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| koupsa | can i leave a children (less 11year) alone with a notebook or mediaphone a tv with no protection? it's difficult to add a easy parental control? install un proxy is not easy and mobil-web is mobil; so not always on same network (sorry if my english is not clear) | 05:34 |
| d14 | better not ;) | 05:35 |
| d14 | :D | 05:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | wiretapped, aren't you a little old to be worried about your parents locking you out of those websites? :P | 05:36 |
| microlith | hmm | 05:37 |
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| * microlith finds the terminal in moblin and is happy | 05:38 | |
| koupsa | :) me not but some mother can be anxious | 05:38 |
| koupsa | and if you root you don't care if your phone/notebook is censored | 05:40 |
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| wiretapped | koupsa: children should be taught common sense... censorware can't make the internet "safe", whatever that means | 05:42 |
| wiretapped | but it will block a lot of harmless things, and teach children that their parents don't trust them | 05:42 |
| wiretapped | and in many cases will teach them to circumvent it, which isn't such a bad thing :) | 05:42 |
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| koupsa | i m agree but more difficult and less random bad publicity (like spamware) | 05:43 |
| wiretapped | i don't understand what you're saying | 05:43 |
| koupsa | i m agree with you. but install a little controll can protect from bad porno publicity and other that choldren can found in a (like spamware for ex) | 05:47 |
| koupsa | in a google simple search | 05:47 |
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| microlith | that's not the distro's problem though | 05:47 |
| microlith | sure some controls could be put into place (usage times, whitelists) but netnanny stuff is out of scope | 05:48 |
| koupsa | (once more time sorry for my english , i shut up :) ) not necessary but it can be an advantage . | 05:49 |
| microlith | then it would probably be a 3rd party option | 05:49 |
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| * microlith fears either the ssd in his netbook is dying, or the pata controller is | 05:50 | |
| koupsa | i hope | 05:50 |
| tripzero | both? | 05:56 |
| microlith | tripzero: entirely possible, I have messed with its innards a bit... | 05:56 |
| geoff43 | tripzero, the eternal optimist | 05:57 |
| microlith | however, moblin is not unhappy on it so I will not taunt it | 05:57 |
| microlith | there | 05:57 |
| microlith | I am now running both maemo and moblin | 05:57 |
| tripzero | geoff43, ;) | 05:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think we need an "I'm a Pepper"-style ad campaign for MeeGo | 05:58 |
| microlith | GeneralAntilles: I could do both at once | 06:00 |
| * microlith looks at all the drpepper cans... | 06:00 | |
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| mukiex | Oh wow. | 07:53 |
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| mukiex | Did not expect it to be this big, especially prior to a release o_0 | 07:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, it's most of the Maemo community ,so. . . . | 07:57 |
| mukiex | I sorta figured as much. | 07:59 |
| mukiex | Assuming there'll be an app SDK, how will it deal with the two architectures? Fat binary or will it be up to the app store itself? | 08:00 |
| mukiex | I'm super-stoked about the entire concept | 08:02 |
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| RST38h | moo all | 08:08 |
| simula | that's a good point mukiex... hmm fat binaries would be pretty cool | 08:09 |
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| RST38h | LLVM. | 08:11 |
| RST38h | No need for fat binaries where LLVM works | 08:11 |
| simula | is there a version of LLVM that can compile Qt? | 08:14 |
| RST38h | No idea but why not? | 08:15 |
| simula | i know it's c++ support is incomplete... at least CLANG | 08:15 |
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| ml-mobile | brb | 08:16 |
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| Stskeeps | morning thiago_home | 09:16 |
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| * w00t_ moos at Stskeeps | 09:49 | |
| Stskeeps | moo w00t_ | 09:50 |
| w00t_ | Stskeeps: http://blog.rburchell.com/2010/02/pyside-tutorial-model-view-programming.html - you said you wanted to learn, so, learn :P | 09:50 |
| Stskeeps | does this mean i have to drag out my UI book? | 09:51 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:51 |
| w00t_ | hehe, not for that one | 09:51 |
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| admiral0 | hi * | 10:53 |
| Stskeeps | 'lo | 10:53 |
| admiral0 | Stskeeps: hi man. i'm seeing your dream come true :) | 10:54 |
| Stskeeps | hehe, i think it's been the dream of many, but difficult to implement | 10:54 |
| admiral0 | :) | 10:54 |
| Amby | morning everyone | 10:55 |
| admiral0 | now my dream is to port meego software over arch (normal + mobile) :D | 10:55 |
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| Stskeeps | admiral0: i think 3d drivers will be possible to strong-hand as nokia already provides in SDK | 11:05 |
| Stskeeps | and if TI gets in on the game.. | 11:05 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:05 |
| admiral0 | Stskeeps: the openpandora is also here to help us n900s | 11:05 |
| admiral0 | ;) | 11:05 |
| Stskeeps | openpandora isn't going to have open 3d drivers | 11:05 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:05 |
| admiral0 | T.T | 11:06 |
| Stskeeps | it's a SGX, too | 11:06 |
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| admiral0 | Stskeeps: you have more experience than me with nokia devices | 11:06 |
| RST38h | Open pandora, closed pandora, are they shipping their soap boxes already? | 11:06 |
| admiral0 | is there a way to have uboot instead of nolo? | 11:06 |
| admiral0 | RST38h: they are in smp afaik | 11:07 |
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| Stskeeps | admiral0: no, but i think we're happy to have nolo | 11:07 |
| RST38h | <facepalm> | 11:07 |
| Stskeeps | less brickable | 11:07 |
| admiral0 | i want dual boot T.T | 11:07 |
| Stskeeps | you have dualboot, get kexec working | 11:08 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:08 |
| admiral0 | it's a workaround | 11:08 |
| admiral0 | btw what's up with kexec? | 11:08 |
| Stskeeps | there's a bug, tmlind mentioned something abotu it | 11:08 |
| admiral0 | i heard it doesn't work | 11:08 |
| admiral0 | hmm | 11:09 |
| admiral0 | kexec + qt embedded static binary = nice boot menu | 11:11 |
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| admiral0 | Stskeeps: so kexec fails even with tmlind's patches? | 11:15 |
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| Stskeeps | in later version it doesn't | 11:16 |
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| admiral0 | i wish i had my n900 so i can test | 11:18 |
| admiral0 | is there any kernel that can use kexec on n900? | 11:19 |
| admiral0 | if there is, with a lot of coffee and beer someone can bisect to the problem | 11:20 |
| Stskeeps | it should work on later linux-omap i think | 11:21 |
| admiral0 | are there any nokia changes not in linux-omap? | 11:22 |
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| Stskeeps | Amby: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45213 | 11:26 |
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| liel | Hello | 11:26 |
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| Amby | Stskeeps: very nice post! | 11:29 |
| admiral0 | yes indeed | 11:29 |
| Stskeeps | this discussion has really gone to the same ridicolous level as the rpm vs deb one, so | 11:30 |
| Amby | Stskeeps: this is what I just answered in another emotionally heated thread - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=538141&postcount=33 | 11:31 |
| Stskeeps | people should realize that there's still a long time for things to fixed in maemo5 :P | 11:31 |
| Stskeeps | kontorri spoke of the plans earlier in terms of timeframe, and there's a lot of things ahead of us | 11:32 |
| Amby | Good that you opened a thread, I was about to start one to do what Nokia failed to explain :) Yours is very clear. | 11:32 |
| Stskeeps | ovi maps is just shit, i use Maep | 11:32 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:32 |
| Amby | I loved Ovi Maps 3. | 11:32 |
| sharpneli | "I'm extremely happy about the N900 - this is my first smartphone, I'm satisfied with and I am a smartphone user since 2005 (Nokia N90)" Do I sense some contradictions here eh? :) | 11:33 |
| leinir | ovi maps is... call it in progress ;) | 11:33 |
| liel | I tried to build a lightweight browser using PyQt and QtWebKit, but the signal connecting was too difficult | 11:33 |
| leinir | sharpneli: i think he wanted to say "mobile computer" on the first one there ;) | 11:33 |
| Amby | sharpneli: could you explain? | 11:33 |
| sharpneli | leinir: Probably. | 11:34 |
| sharpneli | Amby: As mobiles are always personal devices the fact that he's been a smartphone user since 2005 means that N900 is not his first smartphone. | 11:34 |
| admiral0 | maybe he wanted to say linux-based smartphone ;) | 11:35 |
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| Amby | sharpneli: that's my post (diff nickname). I think that's my English (and punctuation) which derails my meaning | 11:35 |
| sharpneli | Or mobile computer or whatever. It still looks funny :D | 11:35 |
| sharpneli | Amby: What is the correct meaning of that sentence? | 11:36 |
| Amby | remove the comma :) this is the first *whatever* I'm happy with (period) | 11:37 |
| leinir | Ooh... nicely :) | 11:37 |
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| sharpneli | Heh. Explains a lot :D | 11:37 |
| leinir | So the fact that it's a mobile computer rather than a smart phone has nothing to do with the fact it's the first any remotely similar device you're really, actually happy with ;) | 11:38 |
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| Amby | leinir: for me that is just semantics :) I had an N810 before, that was okay, but not happy. | 11:39 |
| admiral0 | n900 misses only 2 things that would make it f***ing EPIC for geeks | 11:40 |
| leinir | Amby: Well, it's an important distinction for me :) | 11:40 |
| admiral0 | usb host and HD movies | 11:40 |
| leinir | A smartphone is a phone that tries to be a computer, which is not really my thing... | 11:40 |
| leinir | It's fine for a lot of people, who really like the phone bit a lot, but for me it's the computer bit that's important :) | 11:40 |
| admiral0 | now it's on the epic level ;) | 11:41 |
| leinir | So, having a mobile computer, which is a computer which is able to do phone things (how well it does it is sort of unimportant for me), that's the good bit... for me :) | 11:41 |
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| Amby | leinir: I also appreciate those values, but I'm most of all an en-user. I like a decent UI, multitasking (with usable UI), unlimited web browser, phone capabilities and the integration (no freaking apps for everything). I don't mind the mobile computer term, but you can also look at it as the cleverest phone out there :) | 11:44 |
| leinir | It's just that it's an important distinctions :) It's not a phone which is able to run non-phone-related things, but rather it's a computer that fits in your pockets, which just so happens to be able to make phone calls :) | 11:45 |
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| liel | Also, PyQt is dog-slow... This is one of the reasons I prefer GTK | 11:47 |
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| admiral0 | liel: use C++/Qt | 11:48 |
| liel | admiral0: I tried to learn C++, but it was to difficult to me | 11:49 |
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| admiral0 | liel: try to use Qt Creator to code in C++. It helps you learn a lot | 11:50 |
| admiral0 | you don't need to know advanced features of C++ to code in Qt | 11:50 |
| admiral0 | if you do you understand why some things just fail | 11:51 |
| admiral0 | and don't give up | 11:52 |
| admiral0 | the first part of learning C++ is boring | 11:52 |
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| villemv | and the second part is painful ;-) | 11:53 |
| villemv | then the fun starts | 11:53 |
| villemv | indeed w/ Qt you can get by without really learning c++ | 11:53 |
| villemv | you only need basically the "Java-level" knownledge of the language | 11:54 |
| admiral0 | if there is something painful, then it's called C/GTK or C++/gtkmm | 11:54 |
| admiral0 | XD | 11:54 |
| villemv | don't know gtkmm, but I can appreciate the pain of C/gtk | 11:55 |
| admiral0 | look at how many gtk projects are written in C# | 11:56 |
| villemv | or pygtk | 11:56 |
| admiral0 | that means the native way is painful | 11:56 |
| microlith | GtkBuilder reduces the pain | 11:57 |
| villemv | I think the pain comes from C | 11:58 |
| microlith | C# is decent, but I wouldn't use it on anything but windows | 11:58 |
| villemv | not really the class lib as such | 11:58 |
| villemv | pyqt / gtk# are quite ok I understand | 11:58 |
| admiral0 | not on a embedded device | 11:59 |
| villemv | (I meant pygtk) | 11:59 |
| villemv | perhaps not on embedde device, but on n900 ;-) | 12:00 |
| leinir | Indeed - you really can get away with just not knowing anything about the nitty-gritty of c++ by using Qt :) | 12:00 |
| leinir | You just need to have a basic understanding of what a pointer is, no need to have a complete grasp of pointer arithmetic (though it's good for optimization, but that can always come later) :) | 12:00 |
| leinir | No need to know what sort of deep voodoo qobject_cast does, just that it works ;) | 12:01 |
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| admiral0 | leinir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i49_SNt4yfk | 12:01 |
| admiral0 | :> | 12:01 |
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| thiago_home | you can get by without really learning C++, but do not come with a C++ basic question to #qt | 12:04 |
| admiral0 | liked it :> ? | 12:04 |
| thiago_home | you'll be told to learn the language | 12:04 |
| admiral0 | it's true | 12:04 |
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| admiral0 | but to start coding and having fun is enough | 12:05 |
| leinir | admiral0: Brilliant :) That's really all you need to know about pointers to use Qt :) | 12:05 |
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| admiral0 | then you can have your time to learn more advanced things | 12:06 |
| thiago_home | qobject_cast is very simple: template<typename T> T *qobject_cast(QObject *ptr) { if (cast is proper) return static_cast<T *>(ptr); return 0; } | 12:06 |
| admiral0 | when i first started coding in C++ i didn't even know what templates are | 12:06 |
| thiago_home | the "cast is proper" code is nothing more than normal code. No magic there. | 12:06 |
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| villemv | for magic, see http://erdani.com/book/main.html | 12:06 |
| admiral0 | or go in World of Warcraft | 12:07 |
| admiral0 | thiago_home: don't scare him | 12:07 |
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| admiral0 | :P | 12:07 |
| leinir | thiago_home: Oh i know - but to the user of it it's pretty magic :) My point is that to the casual user, it looks like any other language construct, what it does on the inside is... irrelevant to its use :) | 12:08 |
| admiral0 | he'll understand it after some coding and real interest in C++ | 12:08 |
| leinir | thiago_home: except, of course, for figuring out that problem i've been having with Gluon's Asset class ;) | 12:08 |
| villemv | it may also not be ovbious why you need qobject_cast instead of dynamic_cast | 12:08 |
| villemv | thiago_home: speaking of c++; when you upload the tidbit about std::function "slot" (QSignalMapper), take the trouble to make a small blog post about it or something. It's good "marketing material" for C++ in general | 12:11 |
| villemv | (regarding recent post on qt-interest ML) | 12:11 |
| thiago_home | villemv: yes, I will | 12:12 |
| villemv | all those closures used as signal handlers are a persistent cause for C#/python/ruby envy :-) | 12:12 |
| thiago_home | villemv: it has nothing to do with std::function or QSignalMapper, though | 12:12 |
| villemv | good | 12:12 |
| thiago_home | it's just plain signal connections to functors | 12:12 |
| villemv | ok, even better | 12:12 |
| villemv | I don't give a damn about using those specifically. It was just something I thought of first | 12:13 |
| villemv | but how do you pass the functor as argument if not using std::function? | 12:13 |
| villemv | some construct that does the same thing? | 12:14 |
| villemv | (I guess using std::function allows avoiding the type being a template type) | 12:16 |
| villemv | nvm, I'll see it from the code anyway | 12:18 |
| thiago_home | there's nothing special about std::function | 12:18 |
| thiago_home | I probably repeated its construct in my code | 12:19 |
| thiago_home | but anyway, before I publish my branch, I need to get the rest of Qt working | 12:19 |
| thiago_home | we had a couple of failures yesterday, with pending fixes | 12:19 |
| thiago_home | today, everything is failing | 12:19 |
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| admiral0 | :\ | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | the best kind of changes ;) | 12:21 |
| thiago_home | 11 out of 34 configurations failed, 5 passed, the rest are still building | 12:22 |
| thiago_home | QWS and Solaris are passing. Windows, Mac, Linux, Windows CE, Symbian are failing. | 12:22 |
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| sh0gun | ok, I hear some bad comments about Invisible Shield for N900, but what about Ghost Armor? Anyone with Ghost Armor on N900 please? | 13:16 |
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| Stskeeps | morning tekojo! | 13:19 |
| tekojo | morning Stskeeps | 13:19 |
| tekojo | just popping in for a | 13:19 |
| tekojo | while, actually looking if the uni course we are running has any questions | 13:20 |
| Stskeeps | ah, how's that going? (was there any english-language info on it anywhere?) | 13:20 |
| tekojo | maemo wiki has a page on it | 13:21 |
| Hukka | tekojo: Unrelated question. Someone needs to take control of #meego-meeting properly, since it has been announced as the official place for Wednesday | 13:21 |
| tekojo | Hukka good point | 13:21 |
| Hukka | I see that this channel no longer has ops, so something has been done (the channel is now registered?) | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: it is taken over by GeneralAntilles | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | also i submitted a group registration for | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | (GA's a former council member and very pro-community, no worries there) | 13:22 |
| leinir | sh0gun: initial searching suggests that GA is good :) | 13:22 |
| tekojo | Well GA and Sts are pretty reliable people :) | 13:22 |
| Hukka | Stskeeps: This channel you mean? | 13:22 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: #meego, #meego-* | 13:22 |
| leinir | (alright, the GA i am referring to is ghost armor, not the person ;) ) | 13:22 |
| sh0gun | Sts? | 13:22 |
| sh0gun | what is it? | 13:22 |
| Stskeeps | short for stskeeps | 13:22 |
| sh0gun | hmm | 13:22 |
| sh0gun | people say that IS is tacky | 13:23 |
| Hukka | Stskeeps: Hm, ok. I just went to the -meeting channel and am only one there | 13:23 |
| sh0gun | which is not good for stylus at all | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: yeah, the services let people op if need be | 13:23 |
| Hukka | And was hoping that someone takes over before Wed | 13:23 |
| sh0gun | is the GA tacky as well? | 13:23 |
| vvvv | wasnt meeting on wed | 13:23 |
| leinir | sh0gun: that i can confirm - i have one on my freerunner :) | 13:23 |
| vvvv | ah | 13:23 |
| sh0gun | leinir: IS or GA? | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: no worries, the channel is in safe hands | 13:23 |
| Hukka | Ok, good work | 13:23 |
| leinir | sh0gun: IS - it's fine for me since i have nails (edge-ways your nail runs over it nicely), but a stylus does indeed stick a bit on it :) | 13:23 |
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| sh0gun | leinir: thats the issue :( I think about GA because I hoope it will not stick | 13:24 |
| sh0gun | really no one in this channel with GA and stylus experience on it? | 13:24 |
| tekojo | The meego-community mailing list is up, good | 13:26 |
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| Hukka | Yeah, and no mention of RPM on that list yet :) | 13:31 |
| Hukka | (Maybe getting just a _bit_ fed up on the subject) | 13:32 |
| leinir | Hukka: i've been fed up with that particular discussion for years ;) | 13:32 |
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| tekojo | Hukka I really got bored of that topic too :) | 13:32 |
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| Stskeeps | and people still don't get the point: that it's about the toolset, procedure, existing state of the art services (builder, image building, etc etc) that are integrated together, working, and not stuck in the 90s | 13:32 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:33 |
| leinir | Stskeeps: Exactly :) | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | and services that are up and running, centered around rpm | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:33 |
| Hukka | I mean, it's ok to really discuss it. But 99.9% of the people and comments on that are misinformed | 13:33 |
| Hukka | (In the sense that they haven't even bothered to research what their favourite system does, not to mention the other systems...) | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | i'm even more shocked to find out how delusional people are about maemo :) | 13:34 |
| Hukka | But I have high hopes for the community list | 13:34 |
| Hukka | I think that the rabble will keep out and only people interested in building the meego community will join. That should keep the pessimism out :) | 13:35 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 13:35 |
| Stskeeps | something getting created and started is already showing | 13:35 |
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| Hukka | Sure, pragmatic sceptism is good... But sceptism only takes you that far without anything else on the table | 13:36 |
| leinir | Hukka: Yes, the word "community" tends to scare away tech-trolls ;) | 13:36 |
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| Hukka | leinir: :) | 13:36 |
| Hukka | And info is getting in place nicely. For example the who | 13:36 |
| Hukka | s who list | 13:36 |
| leinir | *nods* Yes, that's a really nice little thing :) | 13:37 |
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| Hukka | We never really had that for maemo, and you could see it | 13:37 |
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| Stskeeps | i still look forward to seeing where people are placed in the hierarchy and who's in charge of what | 13:37 |
| Stskeeps | cos that's not apperarant, from my pov, the intel developers seem to have same position ;) | 13:37 |
| Hukka | Yeah, the TSG is the least filled on that page :/ | 13:37 |
| Stskeeps | it isn't obvious if the Head aMeeGos are part of TSG | 13:38 |
| Hukka | I wonder if it's because the corps are still negotiating on the balance | 13:38 |
| Stskeeps | that isn't clear either | 13:38 |
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| Stskeeps | and how many nokians will be in the game too | 13:38 |
| Hukka | Hopefully in the long run the TSG will rise from the ranks of the community | 13:38 |
| Hukka | But right now, there isn't a way for that | 13:38 |
| Hukka | How does the Foundation work anyway? Who decides on the projects? | 13:39 |
| Stskeeps | there's a governance page | 13:39 |
| Stskeeps | which explains a bit, but it talks about technical merit.. | 13:39 |
| Stskeeps | which has no meaning in a community | 13:39 |
| Stskeeps | well, for community people | 13:39 |
| Hukka | Stskeeps: But it doesn't say who chooses the TSG | 13:40 |
| Hukka | Just that in meego, TSG is king | 13:40 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. i am also keeping in mind that PR mostly put that together | 13:42 |
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| Hukka | So I was wondering if it's the foundation board that chooses them; Linus & co. Or does Nokia and Intel have some kind of special position | 13:42 |
| Hukka | And what that position means for possible new corporate partners, or the small, small developer people | 13:43 |
| Stskeeps | i think it's the dictator's that are the top | 13:43 |
| Terje1 | Hukka, Nokia and Intel have a special position. I guess these are the questions that will be answered in time - now the structure is being set up. | 13:43 |
| Hukka | Because even if Nokia and Intel never use that power, even having the power to overrule everything is a great deterrence for us OSS geeks | 13:44 |
| Hukka | Then again, I suppose as soon as we get the code, we can fork :) | 13:44 |
| Stskeeps | well, nokia also has a good feeling about messing with community, not something they do lightly :P | 13:44 |
| Hukka | Stskeeps: Yeah, but I mean it's still not free, if the slave's master gives only nice orders | 13:45 |
| Hukka | And principles play a large role in these circles | 13:45 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: otoh .. i kinda like the fact there's someone to draw a line | 13:45 |
| Stskeeps | and help push the agenda ahead | 13:45 |
| Hukka | Well, that's different | 13:45 |
| Hukka | I'd like the community to have the option of parting with Nokia and Intel, if they wish. But it doesn't need to be a very good option, of course | 13:46 |
| Stskeeps | if community had their way, meego would end up with emdebian based meego that only ran sanely on nokia 770 ;) | 13:46 |
| Stskeeps | if discussions are to be interpreted | 13:46 |
| Terje1 | Hukka, relax. No sense in starting to start a riot just because the thing is not ready. | 13:47 |
| Hukka | Like in Python, everyone fed up with Guido could fork. But everyone knows that having someone to make a decision and that everyone following is better, since Guido doesn't really make horrible choices | 13:47 |
| tekojo | Hukka I guess that is always an option in open source | 13:47 |
| Hukka | Terje1: Well, like I said, if we get the code with GPL or something, then that's enough | 13:47 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: well, it's also about being participants - it gets more difficult to do something unpopular if your maintainers and backbone of your project does not agree | 13:47 |
| Stskeeps | which leads to compromise, etc | 13:48 |
| Terje1 | Hukka, MeeGo is open source. | 13:48 |
| Hukka | Stskeeps: Well, depends if you take votes from everyone, from everyone who bothers to vote, or everyone who bothers to put some effort into it :) | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: we'll see about how the community gets built up, and then this discussion makes more sense :) | 13:49 |
| Hukka | But I think one thing with maemo.org's whines is that they didn't have a choice. If given a choice, they would probably still take the current route. But they couldn't complain in good concience :) | 13:49 |
| Hukka | That's the good thing about free software, you can always say "Make your own" and that usually shuts up the irrelevant discussions :) | 13:50 |
| Stskeeps | it'll be an interesting experiments to see if we can handle matters and actually produce things, yes | 13:50 |
| Hukka | Like the RPM vs deb. Just put everyone strongly in favour of deb to make it work. If they care, they will. If it doesn't really matter, then they will do nothing, not even continue the complaints. | 13:51 |
| Terje1 | Considering that we have now two guys nominated to work in MeeGo community, I don't see yet too big reason to worry. | 13:51 |
| Hukka | So I think that after the discussion about the alternative builds started, it's already a bit calmer | 13:51 |
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| Hukka | Oh yeah, two guys. How can you call a duo dictators both :? | 13:51 |
| Hukka | More like "the royal couple" :) | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: Rome did that didn't they? | 13:52 |
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| Hukka | Stskeeps: Hm? There was the emperor, and...? | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | ah, no, it was two consuls at the top | 13:52 |
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| Stskeeps | On the establishment of the Roman republic the government of the state was entrusted to two consuls, that the citizens might be the better protected against the tyrannical exercise of the supreme power. | 13:52 |
| thiago_home | then the triumvirate | 13:53 |
| Hukka | Really? Seems like the emperors did pretty much what they wanted | 13:53 |
| thiago_home | Hukka: Roman *republic* | 13:53 |
| thiago_home | not Roman Empire | 13:53 |
| Hukka | I haven't really read about Rome since elementary school... | 13:53 |
| Terje1 | Ok, the kid's awake. Bye | 13:54 |
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| thiago_home | the consuls did pretty much what they wanted too, but since there were two of them... | 13:54 |
| Hukka | And how often the otherone died :? | 13:54 |
| thiago_home | then new consuls or a new triumvirate was elected | 13:54 |
| thiago_home | Ceasar wasn't an emperor. Augustus was, the first. | 13:54 |
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| Hukka | A bit hard for me to distinguish, since in Finnish the work emperor derives directly from Ceasar :) | 13:56 |
| user_ | hi | 13:56 |
| Stskeeps | hi user_ | 13:57 |
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| ab3339 | hi | 13:57 |
| leinir | Hukka: That's just because Finnish is a horrible, horrible language... no matter what Tolkien might've thought ;) | 13:57 |
| ab3339 | cant we use maemo.org credentials to login to meego.com? | 13:57 |
| Hukka | leinir: You're just envious that we can speak it so well :) | 13:57 |
| leinir | *giggles* :) | 13:58 |
| tekojo | ab3339 not yet | 13:58 |
| ab3339 | aha | 13:58 |
| ab3339 | so i should create a new one | 13:58 |
| tekojo | there is some work started to make maemo.org provide OpenId so that meego.com could use that to authenticate | 13:58 |
| ab3339 | can u tell me how to change my font color here? i am using xchat | 13:59 |
| tekojo | but it's still only a thought | 13:59 |
| ab3339 | ok yea i ntoiced meego accepts openid | 13:59 |
| thiago_home | ab3339: ask in an xchat channel, please | 13:59 |
| ab3339 | ok | 13:59 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 14:21 |
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| GeneralAntilles | It's highlight freaking city in here. . . . | 14:25 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ah, acronym collision. | 14:26 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 14:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, you and X-Fade are +F | 14:26 |
| Stskeeps | +F? | 14:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Founder | 14:27 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Somebody else picked up #meego-devel, though. | 14:27 |
| Stskeeps | someone with good intentions, afaik | 14:28 |
| Stskeeps | k | 14:28 |
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| Stskeeps | i'll pass reigns on when there's a visibile structure | 14:31 |
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| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Localization_working_group looks like a good place for you | 14:34 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, th0br0 picked up -devel, im idling there too | 14:48 |
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| Hukka | I only noticed that I don't have ops on -community anymore after trying to change the topic :) | 14:50 |
| Hukka | Thought that I had only parts and joins ignored, seems like I have everything except actual discussion | 14:50 |
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| obironbo | exit | 15:03 |
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| lcuk | meego bowling bbl | 15:05 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: It's great that when I try to catch up on the dozens of threads now in my inbox you've made all my points for me already :) | 15:58 |
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| Stskeeps | so quiet today | 16:20 |
| * w00t_ drops a pin | 16:20 | |
| Jaffa | Scary, isn't it? | 16:20 |
| thiago_home | we can discuss DEB vs RPM again if you feel it's too quiet | 16:20 |
| w00t_ | I was just thinking that, thiago_home | 16:20 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: do you mind if I bug you with a qt related question? (stop reading if you do).. just wondering whether itemview-ng is still a priority, since i've not heard much about it for a fair while | 16:21 |
| thiago_home | it's not a priority | 16:22 |
| RST38h | Will get quieter, gradually. Unless there are news. | 16:22 |
| w00t_ | hrm, sadface | 16:22 |
| Stskeeps | well, when things start appearing there should be more activity | 16:22 |
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| RST38h | There are a few intangible problems right now though | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support was interesting to me | 16:23 |
| RST38h | ah interesting | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | as in, there's no current arm version, but it's getting bootstrapped | 16:23 |
| RST38h | Is this a page from the Maemo Devices guys? | 16:24 |
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| RST38h | Or is there duplication of efforts with Maemo Devices? | 16:24 |
| anaZ | Stskeeps: why would there be anything ARM related before MeeGo in moblin? | 16:24 |
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| Stskeeps | anaZ: i didn't see this as a negative thing :) | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | but you're right | 16:25 |
| anaZ | :) | 16:25 |
| Stskeeps | just indicating this was current status | 16:25 |
| Stskeeps | which means there's a lot of (fun?) work to be done | 16:25 |
| anaZ | yes | 16:25 |
| Stskeeps | so, the base distribution will compile towards same ARM 'target version' as fedora arm? | 16:27 |
| Stskeeps | at first | 16:27 |
| anaZ | up to now I was the only one doing this work anyways, but now more folks are joining | 16:27 |
| Stskeeps | (like, gcc's default ARM version in f12 arm) | 16:27 |
| anaZ | yes, then when a package builds, the meego version is used | 16:28 |
| anaZ | and we are almost there where all packages build using meego | 16:28 |
| Stskeeps | oh, cool | 16:28 |
| anaZ | removing the dependency on fedora | 16:28 |
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| Stskeeps | because fedora builds towards ARMv5TE and i'm curious what meego does 'normally' | 16:28 |
| Stskeeps | as an example, fremantle SDK compiles towards ARMv7 | 16:28 |
| anaZ | now we are building v5 | 16:29 |
| anaZ | once we have something native we could jump | 16:29 |
| RST38h | I hope MeeGo will compile for ARMv7 instead :) | 16:29 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i'm hoping for flexibility | 16:29 |
| anaZ | when more ARM experts are around :) | 16:29 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: hehe, maybe my Nokia N810 can run MeeGo then :> (v5) | 16:29 |
| RST38h | So, who is doing the ARM port? Nokia? Intel? community? | 16:30 |
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| Stskeeps | RST38h: well, if we are going by previous statements, whatever is in upstream is used | 16:31 |
| anaZ | We are just providing the base upon which people can start building other packages | 16:31 |
| anaZ | people= community, Noka | 16:32 |
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| RST38h | Anaz: "we" == ? | 16:33 |
| anaZ | We = Me | 16:33 |
| anaZ | Me@intel.com | 16:33 |
| RST38h | ok | 16:33 |
| RST38h | anaZ: Ok, Intel | 16:33 |
| RST38h | anaZ: OTC? | 16:33 |
| anaZ | yes | 16:33 |
| RST38h | Cool, because I was just gonna ask | 16:35 |
| ShadowJK | software is more portable than some think :) | 16:36 |
| anaZ | yep | 16:36 |
| RST38h | anaZ: Will Maeblin be just an upstream kernel + some Atom SoC drivers, or will it be a complete solution, i.e. will it have base applications to browse the web, read email, use im, etc? | 16:36 |
| anaZ | actually I did not need to change anything to build some base 70 packages | 16:36 |
| anaZ | beside glibc, gcc and kernel | 16:37 |
| anaZ | which for now I am just taking the fedora source until we merge into MeeGo main packages | 16:37 |
| ShadowJK | For the multimedia stuff it helps to figure out the right compilerinvocation/incantation :) | 16:37 |
| blino | anaZ: well, there were some efforts to build Moblin for ARM before, but not from Intel directly :) | 16:37 |
| anaZ | RST38h: You MeeGo? | 16:38 |
| anaZ | it will be everything, from kernel up to frozen bubble :) | 16:38 |
| RST38h | =) | 16:38 |
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| koupsa | parental control to? | 16:38 |
| RST38h | Who will be providing the baseline then? Intel? Nokia? No idea yet? =) | 16:38 |
| anaZ | adding a package from any other distro is really as easy as importing it and sometimes changing a couple of build deps | 16:39 |
| eeanm | meego will provide the baseline... its an organization run by intel and nokia. | 16:39 |
| koupsa | RST38h arm and atom if i understand | 16:39 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: The core base is coming from Moblin, AIUI | 16:39 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Ah, interesting =) | 16:39 |
| anaZ | hence this whole upstream argument is not necessary :) | 16:39 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: So, finally no Modest? =) | 16:40 |
| eeanm | (but I guess the whole point is that moblin and maemo aren't much different in their stack.) | 16:40 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Nokia provide a community; Qt and some other bits | 16:40 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 16:40 |
| Jaffa | anaZ: Hmm. | 16:40 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: MicroB, I hope? :) | 16:40 |
| ShadowJK | You know, many of the things in libosso are useful too.. lblocation.. | 16:40 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Who knows? Nokia having a proper MeeGo device is presumably about 12-18 months away; assuming the N900 successor is coming out with Harmattan | 16:41 |
| ShadowJK | dunno if mobline has libosso equivalent etc :) | 16:41 |
| eeanm | ShadowJK: that's all part of the Qt stack now | 16:41 |
| ShadowJK | osso too? | 16:41 |
| eeanm | well stuff like liblocation | 16:42 |
| ShadowJK | ah | 16:42 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Must have HAL though | 16:42 |
| eeanm | ShadowJK: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/raw/master/doc/html/index.html | 16:42 |
| * RST38h goes to look at the current Moblin apps | 16:43 | |
| ShadowJK | i thought hal is going away overall | 16:43 |
| RST38h | Shadow: No way, it is a hardware abstraction layer | 16:43 |
| th0br0 | hello everyone. | 16:43 |
| RST38h | Shadow: If anything, it will have to grow | 16:44 |
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| ShadowJK | there's of course many things in libosso that would be saner to put elsewhere, like the screen on/off stuff... | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | eeanm: involved with meego btw? | 16:44 |
| eeanm | nope | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | alright | 16:44 |
| RST38h | Shadow: /dev/fb* | 16:44 |
| RST38h | ioctl should do the job | 16:44 |
| blino | anaZ: for now, the MeeGo repo has basically the same content as Moblin, when will the Qt packages from Maemo be introduced? | 16:45 |
| ShadowJK | um | 16:45 |
| eeanm | well I don't consider harmattan to be meego :) | 16:45 |
| ShadowJK | How about X's DPMS extension... | 16:45 |
| thiago_home | blino: they won't | 16:45 |
| thiago_home | blino: the Qt packages for Maemo are specific for Maemo 5 | 16:45 |
| thiago_home | they don't make sense elsewhere | 16:46 |
| ShadowJK | how abour 4.6? ;) | 16:46 |
| thiago_home | 4.6.2 yes | 16:46 |
| thiago_home | but it's just like any other distro: just package it up | 16:46 |
| RST38h | ah how cute, Moblin has got its own App Manager | 16:46 |
| RST38h | no finger scroll but it is ok | 16:47 |
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| eeanm | aren't moblin devices netbooks? so of course no finger scroll | 16:47 |
| blino | thiago_home: so the Qt UI will be totally different from what Nokia showed before? | 16:47 |
| * ShadowJK nods | 16:47 | |
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| thiago_home | blino: what UI are you thinking of? | 16:47 |
| damien_l | and indeed HAL is going away | 16:48 |
| ShadowJK | blino: a matter of configuration isn't :D | 16:48 |
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| thiago_home | blino: the one presented as the Maemo 6 UI? | 16:48 |
| damien_l | we don't have it anymore in Moblin | 16:48 |
| panze | 16:48 | |
| eeanm | seems like Linux is changing its mind about that every few years | 16:48 |
| anaZ | damien_l: what? | 16:48 |
| ab3339 | whats HAL? | 16:48 |
| damien_l | anaZ: we have it back ? | 16:49 |
| thiago_home | ab3339: the computer that killed Dave :-) | 16:49 |
| anaZ | what is it? | 16:49 |
| damien_l | HAL | 16:49 |
| damien_l | hald | 16:49 |
| eeanm | a linux api | 16:49 |
| anaZ | no | 16:49 |
| anaZ | hal is gone | 16:49 |
| anaZ | RIP | 16:49 |
| damien_l | right | 16:49 |
| anaZ | pkg might be there | 16:49 |
| anaZ | but nothing depends on it | 16:49 |
| RST38h | damien: if hal is going away, what is going to provide common api to hardware? | 16:49 |
| ab3339 | that odassy movie? | 16:49 |
| anaZ | need to drop :) | 16:49 |
| RST38h | with two architectures to maintain? | 16:49 |
| sp3000 | a herd of ponies | 16:49 |
| damien_l | RST38h: libudev + derivatives | 16:49 |
| thiago_home | ab3339: yes | 16:49 |
| RST38h | ah | 16:49 |
| ab3339 | hmm | 16:49 |
| blino | thiago_home: yes, I was thinking about the Maemo 6 one | 16:50 |
| blino | the MeeGo UI has been announced to be based on Qt, but no components available now? | 16:50 |
| thiago_home | blino: the Maemo 6 UI is not the Maemo 5 UI | 16:51 |
| thiago_home | and whatever was presented in the Summit last year was preliminary | 16:51 |
| thiago_home | it's not finished | 16:51 |
| thiago_home | besides, Nokia reserves the right to completely change the look-and-feel from stock MeeGo in its own devices | 16:51 |
| eeanm | and the maemo 6 ui probably isn't the real meego ui :) (even though maemo 6 is now meego...) | 16:51 |
| eeanm | I really wish they didn't rename maemo 6, its just confusing :D | 16:52 |
| thiago_home | maemo 6 is still maemo 6 | 16:52 |
| eeanm | but marketing isn't always about clarity | 16:52 |
| eeanm | no its not | 16:52 |
| thiago_home | any renaming is just marketing | 16:52 |
| eeanm | harmattan is still harmattan, maemo 6 is no more | 16:52 |
| eeanm | now its meego | 16:52 |
| thiago_home | right, I never refer to it as Maemo 6 anyway | 16:52 |
| ab3339 | i dont like "meego" ... it feels like iam saying "i am going" | 16:53 |
| thiago_home | for me it's always been Fremantle and Harmattan | 16:53 |
| ab3339 | :) | 16:53 |
| thiago_home | and the I-one | 16:53 |
| blino | thiago_home: but MeeGo is said to us Qt as UI backend, for now, everything is still clutter-based in the repos | 16:53 |
| thiago_home | blino: that goes to show that MeeGo UI will also be different from Moblin UI | 16:53 |
| th0br0 | blino: those repos are just a copy of moblin's current ones afaik | 16:54 |
| eeanm | well yea, at the moment meego is just marketing :) I'm guessing the first "meego" release they talk about coming in q2 2010 is going to be just moblin, in the same way harmattan is still going to be maemo. | 16:54 |
| damien_l | Meego 1.0 UI for netbooks will mainly be Clutter based | 16:54 |
| RST38h | http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/moblin-2.html | 16:54 |
| RST38h | That is the current Moblin UI, supposedly | 16:54 |
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| anaZ | nope | 16:58 |
| anaZ | that is ancient | 16:58 |
| anaZ | this is moblin 2.0 | 16:59 |
| ab3339 | looks nice | 16:59 |
| ab3339 | screen size was big | 16:59 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: on a sidenote, is the idea to have 'public OBS' for meego? as in, people can access, make their own home: repositories, etc? | 16:59 |
| RST38h | anaZ: Says 2.1 =) | 17:00 |
| eeanm | how about meego just use OBS instead having their own :> | 17:00 |
| anaZ | Stskeeps: long term maybe… but for now it would be difficult | 17:00 |
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| eeanm | I don't think its that hard to add a distro to OBS | 17:01 |
| Stskeeps | eeanm: i am in a 18 hour build queue atm, no, seperate OBS makes sense | 17:01 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:01 |
| anaZ | Stskeeps: need to see if we can use the LF build system for this :) | 17:01 |
| ab3339 | what devices have been released with moblin? | 17:01 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: okay :/ there's a big benefit to home: repositories as it invites contributors to the system | 17:02 |
| ab3339 | if any | 17:02 |
| anaZ | Stskeeps: yes, I nkow | 17:02 |
| anaZ | know | 17:02 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: so in the longer term it's for sure valuable to look at | 17:02 |
| eeanm | Stskeeps: heh okay. perhaps run our own instance of OBS. | 17:02 |
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| eeanm | the main benefit of OBS is that you could upload your code once and have packages for multiple architectures | 17:02 |
| eeanm | obviously thats an important feature if meego is going to work at all... | 17:03 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: but let's look closer at the topic when there's code on the table :) | 17:03 |
| eeanm | true :) | 17:03 |
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| eeanm | actually Nokia should probalby hire Novell to run an OBS that lets you upload a Qt app and produce binaries for various versions of symbian, meego arm, meego x86 | 17:04 |
| Stskeeps | eeanm: if you read between the lines, there is a MeeGo OBS | 17:05 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:05 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: heya. was there any news in the past ~20 hours? | 17:06 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: none, surprisingly | 17:06 |
| th0br0 | Mh, ok :) | 17:06 |
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| RST38h | eeanm: for Symbian? | 17:17 |
| * RST38h laughs diabilically | 17:17 | |
| RST38h | diabOlically | 17:17 |
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| lainwir3d | hey th0br0, nice to see you here :p | 17:30 |
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| th0br0 | heya lainwir3d :D same goes to you i guess | 17:30 |
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| ScriptRipper | eeanm: why would Novell be the ideal suited company to do that? | 17:42 |
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| ScriptRipper | they never really supported ARM | 17:43 |
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| ScriptRipper | and not even us with port openSUSE 11.2 to ARM | 17:43 |
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| ShadowJK | As, presumably, experts on OBS | 17:43 |
| ScriptRipper | also, there were public statements like: "Novell will never do ARM" | 17:43 |
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| ScriptRipper | ShadowJK: but I developed with dl9pf the complete ARM support of OBS | 17:44 |
| ScriptRipper | and even lots of other OBS code since 2006 | 17:44 |
| ScriptRipper | and we are part of MeeGo, so why do we need Novell | 17:45 |
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| ScriptRipper | here? | 17:45 |
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| ScriptRipper | they had never any shares in the ARM stuff at all | 17:45 |
| villemv | importance of cpu architechure (arm) is totally overplayed | 17:46 |
| villemv | it only matters in a few core components (kernel, drivers, x) | 17:46 |
| villemv | the rest is just linux | 17:46 |
| ScriptRipper | villemv: and buildsystem, packaging, testing | 17:47 |
| villemv | ok, gcc + toolchain too | 17:47 |
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| ScriptRipper | sure | 17:47 |
| ScriptRipper | that was our work to get OBS working on ARM | 17:47 |
| villemv | but meego doesn't really maintain gcc | 17:47 |
| jophish | sorry, but what does OBS stand for in this context? | 17:47 |
| ScriptRipper | explain maintain? | 17:47 |
| villemv | "commit modifications" | 17:48 |
| GAN900 | OpenSUSE Build Service | 17:48 |
| ScriptRipper | OBS initially used to stand for "openSUSE Build Service" | 17:48 |
| jophish | ah, thanks | 17:48 |
| ScriptRipper | but since its now used for many other distros | 17:48 |
| ShadowJK | villemv, gcc for arm is mostly like throwing a dice and picking a gcc version and hoping that nothing important like the kernel miscompiles :D | 17:48 |
| ScriptRipper | the name might not be accurate anymore | 17:48 |
| ScriptRipper | we are discussing a rename | 17:48 |
| ScriptRipper | to something like | 17:48 |
| ScriptRipper | Linux Build Platform | 17:49 |
| ScriptRipper | or the like | 17:49 |
| villemv | ScriptRipper: "we". you are on opensuse guy then? | 17:49 |
| GAN900 | OBS is a good acronym | 17:49 |
| ScriptRipper | oh, you refer to my IRC coak | 17:49 |
| ScriptRipper | that is historical | 17:49 |
| GAN900 | How about "Open Build Service" :P | 17:49 |
| ScriptRipper | we discussed that either | 17:50 |
| villemv | "Other Build Service" | 17:50 |
| ScriptRipper | YABS | 17:50 |
| ShadowJK | s/service/system | 17:50 |
| GAN900 | OMG Build Service! | 17:50 |
| jophish | thanks | 17:50 |
| ScriptRipper | the other root of confusion is also | 17:50 |
| ScriptRipper | there is a FOSS project | 17:50 |
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| ScriptRipper | and there are services running in the net using it | 17:51 |
| jophish | YABS seems good | 17:51 |
| ScriptRipper | :D | 17:51 |
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| ScriptRipper | we end up in the same problem like with the meego guys naming the new kid | 17:51 |
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| ScriptRipper | and: i work now for the Linux Foundation | 17:52 |
| ScriptRipper | and i was never a Novell employee | 17:52 |
| jophish | Maemo, Moblin, meego. MBS? | 17:52 |
| ScriptRipper | even though I still use my old openSUSE cloak | 17:52 |
| ScriptRipper | in IRC | 17:52 |
| GAN900 | Maemo and Moblin are dead | 17:53 |
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| ScriptRipper | GAN900 with what consequences for OBS naming ? | 17:53 |
| GAN900 | None? | 17:54 |
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| ScriptRipper | villemv: in the sense that i developed parts of OBS yes. Novell employee: No | 17:55 |
| villemv | alright ScriptRipper | 17:55 |
| ScriptRipper | I should switch to a Linux Foundation cloak then not to confuse people | 17:56 |
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| ScriptRipper | <villemv> it only matters in a few core components (kernel, drivers, x) | 17:58 |
| ScriptRipper | that is not totally true | 17:59 |
| ScriptRipper | its a bit more components in practise that rely on arch specifica | 17:59 |
| ScriptRipper | we have seen that during a port of Moblin and openSUSE to ARM | 17:59 |
| ScriptRipper | using OBS | 17:59 |
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| sh0gun | hi again, anyone with ghost armor screen protector? :) | 18:00 |
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| fnordianslip | sh0gun: have you asked in #maemo? | 18:03 |
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| eeanm | ScriptRipper: um, because OBS is great technology. | 18:05 |
| eeanm | ScriptRipper: running an ARM compiler ain't exactly rocket science... | 18:06 |
| eeanm | and is hardly the same thing as developing an ARM distribution, we already do that | 18:06 |
| sh0gun | not asked in #maemo yet | 18:06 |
| sh0gun | I will try | 18:06 |
| ScriptRipper | eeanm: no running an ARM compiler is not rocket science | 18:07 |
| ScriptRipper | but running cross compilation on x86 | 18:08 |
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| ScriptRipper | without the package noticing it and without the need to rewrite pkgs for cross compile | 18:08 |
| ScriptRipper | is *not so obvious* anymore | 18:08 |
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| ScriptRipper | so the OBS implementation for ARM had as a requirement | 18:09 |
| eeanm | that's not OBS's job | 18:09 |
| ScriptRipper | that | 18:09 |
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| villemv | I thought obs was doing that already | 18:09 |
| eeanm | but OBS solves so many of the problems of allowing the public access to a multi-distro build farm... | 18:09 |
| eeanm | but yea OBS isn't magic. eg if you want to build RPMs and debs you obviously need a spec file and a debian/ directory | 18:09 |
| ScriptRipper | eeanm: exactly | 18:10 |
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| ScriptRipper | but most .spec files do not work for cross compilation | 18:10 |
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| ScriptRipper | and we wanted to solve that | 18:10 |
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| lbt | Jaffa: heh - but you've got to reply - we need the weight/attention! | 18:10 |
| ScriptRipper | without the need to rewrite them | 18:10 |
| ScriptRipper | and also | 18:10 |
| ScriptRipper | OBS should solve the problem | 18:11 |
| ScriptRipper | that | 18:11 |
| ScriptRipper | not dependencies to cross or native build | 18:11 |
| ScriptRipper | get put into the packages | 18:11 |
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| ScriptRipper | so that one could *transparently* switch between native build, emulator and cross build | 18:11 |
| villemv | how does obs to the cross compilation btw? | 18:12 |
| ScriptRipper | we wanted to use openSUSE 11.2 with 3500 pkgs as a genuie pig | 18:12 |
| villemv | when you compare it with, say, scratchbox / sb2 | 18:12 |
| ScriptRipper | it can do the same as scratchbox | 18:13 |
| ScriptRipper | but it is not invasive as scratchbox | 18:13 |
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| ScriptRipper | but user controllable | 18:13 |
| * eeanm is so glad that meego means the eventual end of using scratchbox for development at least... | 18:13 | |
| villemv | ok, so it's using some LD_PRELOAD hacks? | 18:13 |
| ScriptRipper | we solve this with the OBS internal API | 18:14 |
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| ScriptRipper | that sets up the build environment | 18:14 |
| ScriptRipper | it is capable to setup virtual machines and emulators | 18:14 |
| ScriptRipper | before the build starts | 18:14 |
| Jaffa | lbt: heh | 18:14 |
| ScriptRipper | and even a combination of both | 18:15 |
| ScriptRipper | so you can do the same as with scratchbox | 18:15 |
| villemv | anyone know already what gcc version MeeGo will be using? | 18:15 |
| ScriptRipper | but it is not *invasive* as scratchbox | 18:15 |
| ScriptRipper | villemv: i heard it will be Fedora 12 based | 18:16 |
| eeanm | villemv: meego is currently marketing jargon. meego-the-technology is too far in the future to say I'd guess. | 18:16 |
| villemv | ok, that's very cutting edge | 18:16 |
| ScriptRipper | so it means gcc 44 or higher | 18:16 |
| ScriptRipper | also, we need gcc 44 for ARM stuff | 18:16 |
| ScriptRipper | or higher | 18:16 |
| villemv | eeanm: yeah, I'm just wondering what we'll eventually have access to | 18:16 |
| villemv | e.g .that we won't be stuck w/ gcc 4,2 | 18:17 |
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| sepultina | hallo | 18:17 |
| ScriptRipper | what distro used gcc 4.2 please? | 18:17 |
| eeanm | fremantle does I think | 18:17 |
| ShadowJK | well, codesourcery not fsf, right | 18:18 |
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| villemv | sbox-i486-pc-linux-gnu-gcc (GCC) 4.2.1 | 18:18 |
| ScriptRipper | but that does not matter so much in OBS | 18:19 |
| ScriptRipper | you can rewrite packaging and build install rules | 18:19 |
| anaZ | gcc 4.4.2 | 18:20 |
| ScriptRipper | so you can have multiple compiler versions in parallel | 18:20 |
| ScriptRipper | Maemo 5.0: gcc-4.2-base_4.2.1-4maemo9 | 18:20 |
| villemv | anyone know how good c++0x "auto" support is in that gcc? | 18:20 |
| ScriptRipper | that is really pretty old | 18:20 |
| villemv | I know it has it, but not about the maturity | 18:20 |
| ShadowJK | ScriptRipper, i think it's 2007 cs | 18:21 |
| ScriptRipper | ah | 18:21 |
| villemv | dev tools in maemo 5 are indeed very old, debian etch era | 18:21 |
| eeanm | villemv: you wouldn't want to use that prerelease stuff I don't think... | 18:21 |
| rlinfati | scratchbox-toolchain-cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7 | 18:21 |
| ShadowJK | right :) | 18:21 |
| ScriptRipper | uff | 18:21 |
| villemv | eeanm: pre-standard, but actually implemented. it might be nice for prototyping etc | 18:21 |
| eeanm | I guess. I'd just avoid it :) | 18:22 |
| eeanm | and use ruby for prototyping | 18:22 |
| eeanm | or whatever your flavor is ;) | 18:22 |
| villemv | I mean prototyping in the sense of "implement a part of c++ program" | 18:22 |
| ScriptRipper | i mean, all this uncertainty will soon be removed when the MeeGo OBS goes public | 18:22 |
| eeanm | that's called implementing... | 18:23 |
| villemv | obviously I would use python for thought experiments | 18:23 |
| eeanm | but yea I wouldn't use that stuff there | 18:23 |
| villemv | I meant to say "PROTOTYPE a part of c++ program" | 18:23 |
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| eeanm | ScriptRipper: wait so meego is using OBS? I really lost the thread of what you were saying before :D | 18:24 |
| RST38h | Why do you need to prototype a C++ program? | 18:24 |
| RST38h | as opposed to writing it in C++? | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: for testing good desing? | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | it's actually a good practice ... for bigger projects for sure... | 18:24 |
| RST38h | And why can't you test design in C++? | 18:24 |
| eeanm | RST38h: he is talking about prototyping in C++, which doesn't make sense ot me :) | 18:24 |
| ScriptRipper | yes, MeeGo and Moblin use OBS | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | depending on the size of the project that'd be kinda difficult. | 18:24 |
| ScriptRipper | the proble with OBS | 18:25 |
| th0br0 | besides, compiling takes time | 18:25 |
| ScriptRipper | is | 18:25 |
| RST38h | Why would you want to test a lot of design instead of implementing it piece by piece? | 18:25 |
| ScriptRipper | that it stands for openSUSE Buildservice @ Novell | 18:25 |
| ScriptRipper | aka | 18:25 |
| ScriptRipper | build.opensuse.org | 18:25 |
| eeanm | why is that a problem | 18:25 |
| ScriptRipper | which is not meant | 18:25 |
| villemv | of course you need to prototype a component for c++ program in c++ | 18:25 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: so that you easily revert it ... | 18:25 |
| ScriptRipper | because Novell will not host the project | 18:25 |
| RST38h | Why can't you revert stuff written piece by piece? | 18:26 |
| eeanm | well OBS is open source so its still not a problem :) | 18:26 |
| ScriptRipper | nope | 18:26 |
| th0br0 | villemv: well... take a look at the blender guys ... they're doing python prototyping & converting to c afterwards. why? well, imho this way it's faster to add and test new features. | 18:26 |
| ScriptRipper | but OBS also stands for the Service, and not only for the Source Code | 18:26 |
| th0br0 | ofc, for a small project that's pretty useless but for bigger ones ... | 18:26 |
| ScriptRipper | which sometimes confuses | 18:26 |
| RST38h | Useless for bigger projects too | 18:26 |
| RST38h | Ability to break bigger tasks into smaller tasks and plan their execution is useful though | 18:27 |
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| ali1234 | top-down stepwise refinement doesn't mix very well with C++ because of the amount of boilerplate it requires, which you end up having to change any time the design changes. and that is why people prototype in python. | 18:32 |
| RST38h | Well designed program does not require too much boilerplate | 18:33 |
| RST38h | If it does, you are doing something wrong | 18:33 |
| ali1234 | C++ by its very nature requires large amount of boilerplate | 18:34 |
| RST38h | (usually, by designing things that had to be left out) | 18:34 |
| RST38h | What boilerplate? | 18:34 |
| ali1234 | if you design the whole program beforehand this does not matter | 18:34 |
| RST38h | Designing whole program beforehand is a bad design practice | 18:34 |
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| RST38h | Even although a lot of software engineering books written by non-programmers will teach you that | 18:35 |
| ali1234 | boilerplate in C++? every time you write a constructor, destructor, class/function declaration, or have to choose between public and private - that is boilerplate you don't need in a prototype | 18:36 |
| RST38h | Really? | 18:36 |
| RST38h | And how do I "choose"? | 18:36 |
| RST38h | (given that I already have public: and private: sections in my class) | 18:36 |
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| leinir | RST38h: The idea is that in a prototype, you hack everything to just check if it'd work. As such, you just write everything as public, because private is something you do to make things pretty when viewed from the outside | 18:38 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: and then you realize you need something private to be public and have to cahnge your class definition anyway | 18:38 |
| RST38h | leinir: I can just as well write everything as public in C++ | 18:38 |
| RST38h | Either way, there is no boilerplate involved | 18:38 |
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| ali1234 | RST38h: if you never ever change your class definition (because you designed your entire program before beginning to write it) then there is no benefit to prototyping | 18:39 |
| RST38h | Hehe | 18:39 |
| RST38h | It is true that I rarely change my class definitions | 18:39 |
| RST38h | But I never design the whole thing from the start :) | 18:39 |
| ali1234 | if you make even a slight attempt at following OO methodology with real public interfaces, the class definitions end up changing a LOT | 18:40 |
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| ali1234 | you either plan them out with UML or something, or you prototype them | 18:40 |
| ali1234 | personally i prefer to prototype and then look at what really needs to be public/private | 18:40 |
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| ezjd | Hello | 18:53 |
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| Stskeeps | heya ezjd | 18:54 |
| ezjd | Hi Stskeeps | 18:54 |
| Stskeeps | how's it going? | 18:54 |
| ezjd | Good. I have been looking into the mails and IRC log to try to get more information ... | 18:55 |
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| ezjd | Stskeeps: When can I expect more information like detailed architecture/document is available? | 18:57 |
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| arjan | ezjd: week or two | 18:59 |
| arjan | ezjd: if you have specific questions by all means ask it | 18:59 |
| arjan | just because there is no pretty picture does not mean you can't get answers ;) | 18:59 |
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| bobdobolina_ | anyone have any idea when we'll get our first look at meego? | 19:00 |
| arjan | first look as in "somewhat tested alpha images"? | 19:00 |
| arjan | hopefully first few days of march | 19:00 |
| ezjd | arjan: Thx! | 19:01 |
| bobdobolina_ | "look" meaning anything from screenshots to looking at any sort of code or anything for that matter | 19:01 |
| bobdobolina_ | i actually havent seen anything about it other than the nokia intel announcement | 19:01 |
| bobdobolina_ | and the meego.com website | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~botsnack | 19:02 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer: thanks | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | moin Stskeeps | 19:02 |
| Stskeeps | morning DocScrutinizer | 19:02 |
| arjan | bobdobolina_: screenshots will depend on what device fwiw | 19:02 |
| arjan | netbook will look a little bit familiar to moblin 2.1 (but with many improvements/changes everywhere) | 19:03 |
| ezjd | Will MeeGo UI framework be based on Harmattan's? | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: maybe a untraditional question, but are there any issues/things to help with, that we can do early on? (from technical point of view) - always helps to have more hands | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: or maybe "MeeGo 101" of materials to read up on :) | 19:03 |
| arjan | ezjd: you mean the Qt one? for handsets absolutely | 19:04 |
| arjan | Stskeeps: right now we just need to get the infra ready | 19:04 |
| arjan | so that there is a place to help | 19:04 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 19:04 |
| ezjd | Because Harmattan just released and opened UI code (so called DUI), I am referring to that (based on Qt) | 19:06 |
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| Stskeeps | well, there's OBS, what other infra is getting set up? (not sure if it's mentioned anywhere) | 19:06 |
| arjan | ezjd: yup you can assume it'll be based on that | 19:06 |
| Stskeeps | of the technical kind | 19:06 |
| arjan | Stskeeps: accounts, contribution agreement etc | 19:06 |
| RST38h | repos? procedure to submit stuff to repos and track its status? | 19:06 |
| arjan | we also are moving the git trees for projects | 19:06 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: contribution agreement doesn't mean copyright assignment i presume | 19:07 |
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| arjan | not that I know of | 19:07 |
| arjan | more like "I promise that what I contribute I have the rights to contribute" kind of thing | 19:07 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 19:07 |
| Stskeeps | that's a good thing | 19:07 |
| arjan | but as disclaimer, I have not seen final language | 19:08 |
| arjan | but I'm hoping it looks a lot like the kernel contribution agreement | 19:08 |
| Stskeeps | i probably need to clear that with my upstream contractor as well | 19:08 |
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| Stskeeps | (and of course, if maemo.org distmaster role covers helping out with meego too :) | 19:08 |
| arjan | I'd hope so ;) | 19:09 |
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| ezjd | Both Moblin and Harmattan are assuming OpenGL support, will Meego do so? | 19:10 |
| Stskeeps | depends on desktop and widget set in use i guess | 19:10 |
| Stskeeps | (gles) | 19:10 |
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| arjan | yeah we assume a hardware 3d engine | 19:11 |
| arjan | you can argue for hours which exact extensions are required vs optional | 19:11 |
| arjan | but I'm much more pragmatic ;-) | 19:12 |
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| arjan | there's already some abstraction layers for the differences | 19:12 |
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| Stskeeps | but from a base system area and "normal" qt, it could be possible to have non-GLES too, if you -really- wanted it, i guess | 19:12 |
| arjan | so in the end opengl/gles matters only to the implementation details of one component | 19:12 |
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| MisterN | arjan: so meego will NOT work on a system without 3d-hardware? | 19:12 |
| arjan | MisterN: that is a broad statement | 19:13 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps Hint: Moblin Developer Edition (live CD) apparently does not require OGL right away | 19:13 |
| arjan | the reference user experience of netbook and handset will use/need 3d hardware | 19:13 |
| MisterN | arjan: it is broad, and that's why i asked! | 19:13 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: At least it starts up without it and shows the welcome screen | 19:13 |
| arjan | that does not mean that one could not make some UI without it on top of meego | 19:13 |
| MisterN | handset means phone? | 19:13 |
| arjan | yeah | 19:13 |
| MisterN | why not just say phone? :P | 19:13 |
| MisterN | you know people would actually understand what you mean | 19:14 |
| arjan | sorry too many hours of negotiation with nokia folks | 19:14 |
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| arjan | they don't call the n900 a phone ;) | 19:14 |
| MisterN | *rolleyes* | 19:14 |
| arjan | portable computer or something ;0 | 19:14 |
| ShadowJK | mobile computer ;) | 19:14 |
| arjan | that one | 19:14 |
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| MisterN | i'm not sure if that's so clever, because that suggests that computer companies are better at it | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | and it is | 19:15 |
| ShadowJK | for some users the word "phone" implies a whole slew of gsm/3gp features not pvresent in n900 | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | why do you think Nokia is any worse on computers or rubbershoes than any other manufacturer? | 19:16 |
| ShadowJK | Like "phone" automatically means PTT, 3g media sharing, 3g video calls, etc :) | 19:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer | honestly from a mere "phone" POV N900 isn't outstanding | 19:18 |
| thiago_home | it makes calls | 19:18 |
| RST38h | it is fine | 19:19 |
| thiago_home | yeah | 19:19 |
| thiago_home | I am in phone conferences every week with the N900 | 19:19 |
| RST38h | I hate the weight and the brickish form (E70 was so much more comfortable) but N900 is ok as phone | 19:19 |
| thiago_home | it can sustain a 3-hour conf or more in the battery lifetime | 19:19 |
| ezjd | But I think assuming HW GL support will extremely narrow down the list of targeted devices. At work, I frequently saw customer want to strip down graphic part of chip to reduce cost and save power. | 19:19 |
| RST38h | N900 shines when in speakerphone mode though | 19:19 |
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| leinir | DocScrutinizer: It's not OMFGwtFBBQAEWSUM!!!111eleventyone, but it makes calls just fine :) | 19:19 |
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| roadi | hildon-home uses 100% of my cpu; rebooting the n900 was not the solution; any ideas? btw after few seconds the n900 asks me to kill this process but its for the home-screen so it will be restartet and the problem starts again. :( | 19:20 |
| thiago_home | I've seen the designs for the successor of the N900 and, trust me, it looks much better | 19:20 |
| roadi | argh wrong channel :> | 19:20 |
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| ebassi | ezjd: all smart phones released today, and all the ones in the can for the next few years, will have GL support | 19:20 |
| leinir | thiago_home: you can't talk about it other than that, though, i take it? No news on physical keyboard for us, right? ;) | 19:20 |
| thiago_home | leinir: I can't tell you any specifics | 19:20 |
| leinir | Yeah, thought so :) | 19:20 |
| thiago_home | leinir: I can just say it'll be awesome | 19:20 |
| leinir | Glad to hear it's nifty looking though :) | 19:20 |
| thiago_home | I can repeat what has been publicly said, though | 19:21 |
| thiago_home | capacitive, multitouch touchscreen | 19:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | bah | 19:21 |
| arjan | ezjd: if you want a fast feeling UI, you need hw accel. | 19:21 |
| th0br0 | cheaper or at the same price level as the n900, thiago_home? | 19:21 |
| thiago_home | th0br0: that I don't even know | 19:21 |
| arjan | ezjd: if you don't want a fancy UI, s40 is there ;) | 19:21 |
| th0br0 | k | 19:21 |
| ezjd | ebassi: trust me, that isn't the truth, and I don't think MeeGo is only targeting smartphone | 19:22 |
| thiago_home | now, here's an interesting question: how are we going to do multitouch with X11? :-) | 19:22 |
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| leinir | thiago_home: Something which i'm not so hot on, but ah well :) | 19:22 |
| th0br0 | thiago_home: umm, there is 1.6 | 19:22 |
| ebassi | ezjd: "trust me" too | 19:22 |
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| th0br0 | or 1.7? they delayed it to 1.7 iirc | 19:22 |
| arjan | thiago: X 1.8 has multi touch capable stuff | 19:22 |
| thiago_home | 1.7 XInput2 | 19:22 |
| thiago_home | but even XInput2 isn't good enough | 19:22 |
| th0br0 | http://blogs.gnome.org/carlosg/2010/01/29/multi-touch-support-in-linuxxorggtk/ thiago_home | 19:22 |
| thiago_home | we need a different solution | 19:22 |
| arjan | thiago: hmm interesting; I know that we have multitouch in moblin | 19:23 |
| thiago_home | what's more, XInput2 requires a complete rewrite of Qt's mouse, tablet and keyboard handling | 19:23 |
| th0br0 | i guess that'll come sooner or later anyway... ? | 19:23 |
| ebassi | thiago_home: we had to do that for gtk+ as well; it's still sitting in a branch, right now | 19:23 |
| th0br0 | why isn't it good enough btw? | 19:23 |
| ezjd | ebassi: Let's not talk about smartphone as the definition isn't the same to everyone, how about other targeting devices? | 19:24 |
| MisterN | thiago_home: i guess that should be done then :P | 19:24 |
| thiago_home | I don't know the specifics | 19:24 |
| thiago_home | but I can get it for you | 19:24 |
| ebassi | ezjd: for meego? | 19:24 |
| arjan | ezjd: other devices may or may not share the same UI | 19:24 |
| arjan | ezjd: but at least all atom silicon has some form of 3D engine | 19:25 |
| th0br0 | thiago_home: you mean why it isn't good? that'd be interesting. | 19:25 |
| ebassi | what arjan said :-) | 19:25 |
| ezjd | ebassi: yes. I assume Meego has same UI framework for at least most devices. | 19:25 |
| Stskeeps | putting a baseline of gles2 enabled devices for qt(+orbit/dui) makes sense | 19:25 |
| arjan | and a lot of the arm world has 3D as well | 19:25 |
| arjan | ezjd: that's not quite a correct assumption | 19:26 |
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| arjan | netbook, phone, tv, car are all very very different | 19:26 |
| thiago_home | th0br0: like I said, I don't know the details. I know that the information presented by XInput2 isn't the best format for Qt's consumption. | 19:26 |
| arjan | Qt is the application API for all | 19:26 |
| th0br0 | ah ok | 19:26 |
| arjan | but the actual UI framework.... (like home screen etc) is very different between them | 19:26 |
| thiago_home | th0br0: and from what I've been told, the maintainers agree with us. The thing is that it requires changes to the extension again. | 19:26 |
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| th0br0 | which would delay multitouch for at least 1 other x.org release? | 19:27 |
| ali1234 | so what phones have OSS 3D drivers? | 19:27 |
| ezjd | arjan: In arm world, that is the reality that HW GL isn't always available from my experience. | 19:27 |
| arjan | ezjd: but for devices where you don't invest in graphics capabilities you also don't expect graphics to be nice. | 19:27 |
| arjan | simple as that | 19:27 |
| Stskeeps | ezjd: on anything new, it is | 19:28 |
| arjan | in english "you can't eat your cake and ahve it" | 19:28 |
| Stskeeps | at least GLES2 | 19:28 |
| thiago_home | ebassi: ours too, it's in a branch | 19:28 |
| Stskeeps | ezjd: the problem is licensing | 19:28 |
| RST38h | ali1234: probably none of them | 19:28 |
| thiago_home | ebassi: there's a lot to be tested, including the fallback to X servers that don't support XInput2 | 19:28 |
| ebassi | thiago_home: true | 19:28 |
| thiago_home | ebassi: and the entire IM mechanism in Qt woks on raw X events, so they need to be ported over too | 19:29 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: that's what i figure. which means no truly free meego for phones | 19:29 |
| arjan | ali1234: that's up the the hw guy though | 19:29 |
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| ezjd | arjan: we can assume different UI framework for different device, but I think we can use the flexibility of Qt to achive that. But Harmattan UI isn't at lease now. | 19:29 |
| arjan | if they negotiate a license to get open drivers... purchasing power ftw | 19:29 |
| ali1234 | arjan: i know, that is the problem | 19:29 |
| RST38h | ali1234: Well... There are other reasons why we would like MeeGo to have optional OGL requirement | 19:29 |
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| arjan | ali1234: as long as the phone vendor is ok/happy with binary graphics drivers that is not going to change | 19:30 |
| ali1234 | it basically means we won't even be able to make a replacement meego firmware for any device and legally distribute it because of driver licencing | 19:30 |
| ezjd | Stskeeps: as matter of fact, I am seeing something will go to market in next few years doesn't have it. | 19:30 |
| arjan | ali1234: but once a big phone company says "this shall be open" all silicon vendors will figure it out ;) | 19:30 |
| ali1234 | well as usual, i won't be holding my breath | 19:31 |
| RST38h | arjan: No :( | 19:31 |
| damien_l | we have a "fallback" Xfce environment in Moblin that could serve the non GL case, but don't expect any development on non GL envs | 19:31 |
| ali1234 | instead i'll be making my own UI that doesn't require 3D | 19:31 |
| ali1234 | or just using android instead | 19:31 |
| MisterN | the evil word! | 19:31 |
| arjan | android has binary 3d just as well | 19:31 |
| arjan | so good luck ;) | 19:31 |
| RST38h | arjan: In the case of ImageTech, it won't open anything until someone buys them out | 19:32 |
| ali1234 | hahaha, well i need something that doesn't require 3D and also runs on a 240x320 screen | 19:32 |
| ali1234 | arjan: android does not require 3d at all, it runs fine on a plain fb | 19:32 |
| * mikeleib is using the fallback XCFE desktop right now | 19:32 | |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, capacitive equals the end of the line for my relationship with Nokia, unfortunately. | 19:32 |
| arjan | current generation does. | 19:32 |
| ShadowJK | Nokia and TI have even brought us 3d drivers on N8x0, where there never were any before ;) | 19:32 |
| damien_l | ali1234: then yes, you'll have to write it :p | 19:32 |
| ali1234 | define "current generation" | 19:32 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: why? | 19:32 |
| ezjd | arjan: regarding fancy UI, assuming you agree with me KDE4 is a fancy UI, the openGL support is still optional. | 19:32 |
| ali1234 | are they on 2.0 yet? | 19:32 |
| * GeneralAntilles still can't believe they're abandoning their existing customer base like that for a MARKETING driven decision. | 19:32 | |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, because, quite frankly, capacitive sucks. | 19:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, and I can't stand to use it. | 19:33 |
| th0br0 | ali1234 it was initially planned to write the android UI in full GL though! | 19:33 |
| MisterN | GeneralAntilles: most people prefer capacitive :P | 19:33 |
| damien_l | ezjd: they are still relying on Xrender isn'tit ? | 19:33 |
| thiago_home | one thing I don't like about capacitive is that I can't use it while wearing gloves | 19:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | MisterN, that's subjective. | 19:33 |
| ali1234 | th0br0: false, it was initially planned to use a chip that didn't have 3d acceleration at all | 19:33 |
| arjan | ezjd: one thing to realize also is that without the hw accell, you burn more cpu time -> more power | 19:33 |
| * mikeleib likes the capacative | 19:33 | |
| fnordian900 | you need a meat stylus with capacitive | 19:33 |
| * arjan hates capacitive | 19:33 | |
| th0br0 | ali1234: well, that's what i was told. | 19:33 |
| MisterN | i usually just remove the gloves | 19:33 |
| arjan | and my girlfriend hates it too, she just does not register on capacitive ;) | 19:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, capacitive is way too many compromises for marketing buzzwords. | 19:34 |
| ali1234 | the first android prototypes used omap850 which has no 3d | 19:34 |
| MisterN | but most of the time it's warm enough not to wear gloves | 19:34 |
| ali1234 | they only changed that after the iphone came out | 19:34 |
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| ezjd | arjan: without hw gl, CPU will be more busy, but with HW GL, power may be consumed more when idle. It is always to be considered. | 19:34 |
| arjan | ezjd: that's why you powergate the gpu when it's idle | 19:35 |
| thiago_home | MisterN: it's cold enough here 5 months of the year that I'd be wearing gloves | 19:35 |
| th0br0 | mh k, ali1234, thanks for that inforamtoin | 19:35 |
| MisterN | GeneralAntilles: i haven't really tried resistive, but why do you think it's better? | 19:35 |
| damien_l | ezjd: again, are you sure your not using xorg's 2D drivers and Xrender? | 19:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | MisterN, more precise, broader range of input devices, better feel. | 19:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | MisterN, capacitive just doesn't make any sense at 266 ppi | 19:35 |
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| ebassi | ezjd: if your system is idle and nothing sends updates to the GPU, the GPU goes in idle as well | 19:36 |
| ShadowJK | erjd: atleast omap3 switches sgx entirely off :) | 19:36 |
| MisterN | GeneralAntilles: i guess i would have to compare myself | 19:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | Precision is the key | 19:36 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: broader range has to do with the fact that it's cheaper | 19:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | But also my fingers KNOW how to use resistive | 19:36 |
| MisterN | well with a glove you NEVER have precision | 19:36 |
| ShadowJK | Seems omap3 is even able to keep NEON unpowered while the arm core remains active | 19:36 |
| ezjd | damine_l: I believer 2D driver is used but it is NOT hw OpenGL driver (DRI for example) | 19:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | and that knowledge translates exactly ZERO for capacitive | 19:36 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: and more users has never been an argument for us | 19:36 |
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| MisterN | GeneralAntilles: my fingers on the other hand KNOW how to use capacitive | 19:36 |
| ezjd | ebassi: GPU idel dosen't mean it is powered down. | 19:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | The really stupidly simple answer is for Nokia to not let their marketing people completely drive product decisions | 19:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | and release at least one device with each type | 19:37 |
| arjan | ezjd: for good silicon it does | 19:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | then users can pick the kind they prefer | 19:37 |
| arjan | ezjd: that's what power gates are for | 19:37 |
| damien_l | for ARM soc, it's a matter of not enabling the PLLs driving and your 3D engine sucks no power | 19:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | and you don't alienate a large portion of your customer base. | 19:37 |
| ebassi | ezjd: if it's idle it's general consensus that it should be powered down | 19:37 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: trust me, marketing doesn't drive product decisions | 19:37 |
| ezjd | arjan: It is a little off topic now. | 19:37 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: if they did, capacitive would've been here two years ago | 19:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, then why in the world would they choose to move to exclusive capacitive? :) | 19:38 |
| ebassi | ezjd: if it doesn't, it's either a software issue (bad driver authors, no cookie for you) or an *impressively* bad hardware design | 19:38 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: I'm pretty sure they believe it's superior technology | 19:38 |
| ezjd | arjan: My original question is whether we should assume HW Open GL support. | 19:38 |
| ebassi | ezjd: the former is fixable by chaining drivers authors to their desk; the latter is fixable by *not* buying that hardware | 19:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, I'm pretty sure they're idiots, then. | 19:38 |
| ezjd | power management is another much bigger topic. | 19:39 |
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| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: right. So you know better than the qualified engineers in the #1 company in the largest market in the planet? | 19:39 |
| arjan | ezjd: for now, meego assumes some form of gl support | 19:39 |
| arjan | ezjd: at least, we tell application vendors that they can assume that | 19:39 |
| MisterN | attractive devices will have it anyways. :D | 19:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, I know both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages. | 19:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, neither is clearly superior. | 19:40 |
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| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, I also know that I've been a Nokia customer for a long time and I've seen them make a lot of stupid decisions. | 19:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, I also know people are fallible. | 19:40 |
| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: big companies making stupid decisions? wow | 19:40 |
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| arjan | OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD | 19:40 |
| ezjd | arjan: If it is decided and no room for discussion, I will shut up. | 19:40 |
| * arjan reads code that I wrote 2 years ago, and someone rewrote it in C++ | 19:41 | |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, if you're asserting that Nokia's hardware engineers are completely infallible then I'll point you to their inability to prevent N900 USB ports from falling out enmass. | 19:41 |
| arjan | ezjd: the thing is that app vendors WANT such functionality | 19:41 |
| th0br0 | just stop this senseless trolling... there's no need to get insulting and it's completely out of the scope of this channel. | 19:41 |
| * arjan shudders at this code ;( | 19:41 | |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: I'm not saying that they are infallible. | 19:41 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: I'm simply saying I have no reason to believe you over them. | 19:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, just that my opinion is clearly not comparable to theirs? ;) | 19:41 |
| damien_l | arjan: that's because C++ is clearly superior | 19:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, yeah, not generally a productive way to hold discussions. | 19:42 |
| ezjd | arjan: next question is can MeeGo "fallback" to something with HW GL support? | 19:42 |
| * GeneralAntilles moves on to something productive. | 19:42 | |
| MisterN | damien_l: which does not imply that all c++ code is good. | 19:42 |
| BluesLee | can someone guess how many people here come from from maemo and how many from moblin community, what is the ratio? | 19:42 |
| ezjd | sorry w/o GL support | 19:42 |
| arjan | ezjd: you mean, is there sw rendering with neon/sse accel? | 19:42 |
| th0br0 | BluesLee: 10-15:1? at least, that's my personal impression. | 19:42 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: point being, I don't know you, I don't know your qualifications. For all I know, you could be a whiner. | 19:42 |
| arjan | there is sw fallback, and at least for intel stuff we're working on sse accel for tha | 19:42 |
| arjan | t | 19:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, just realize that Nokia has lost at least one customer and extremely dedicated contributor with this particular decision. | 19:42 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: in any case, there's nothing I can do about the product decisions either, so the discussion has no point. | 19:42 |
| MisterN | BluesLee: i suppose many are from neither maemo nor moblin | 19:42 |
| arjan | thiago: GA is one of the maemo community ambassadors | 19:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home, plenty of information about me is a google search away. | 19:43 |
| ezjd | ezjd: something purely depends on CPU | 19:43 |
| arjan | AGRH they also made my code StudlyCapped | 19:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Anyway, whatever, apologies for cluttering up the channel with inanity. | 19:43 |
| BluesLee | th0br0: i didnt know that moblin has an active community, no forum, few posts in ml etc | 19:43 |
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| th0br0 | BluesLee: nor did i :)the ration might be far worse actually. and most of those moblin guys are likely to be employed by intel (at least the ones in here) | 19:44 |
| mikeleib | code StudlyCapped? | 19:44 |
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| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: well, then I can only hope that something will change your mind. | 19:45 |
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| BluesLee | th0br0: we will see what will happen soon ... | 19:46 |
| th0br0 | indeed BluesLee | 19:46 |
| fnordian900 | GeneralAntilles, perhaps another device vendor shipping a meego platform will fill your needs, then? | 19:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | fnordian900, one can only hope. | 19:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | fnordian900, we'll see how much differentiation comes into play, though. | 19:48 |
| * ShadowJK realistically expects it'd take 3-4 generations before the screen becomes as awesome as N900 again :D | 19:48 | |
| RST38h | Why? | 19:48 |
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| ShadowJK | Well it took that long for the screen to become responsive and most of all consistent | 19:49 |
| ShadowJK | (n900) | 19:49 |
| fnordian900 | it is a good screen on the 900 | 19:50 |
| RST38h | Funny, I do not consider it very consistent. Feels like a minefield, never know when it accidentally clicks when scrolling | 19:50 |
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| ezjd | the general SW fallback will Mesa in X in the framework is depending on GL command, which doesn't provide performance. Are you saying SW fallback is aother framework? | 19:52 |
| arjan | ezjd: mesa fallback performance depends on how much your cpu vendor invests in optimizing it | 19:52 |
| arjan | sse for intel, neon for arm etc | 19:52 |
| timeless_mbp | so, fwiw, i've set up an mxr for repo.moblin and git.moblin for people to play w/ | 19:54 |
| damien_l | mesa fallback with a simple fragment program is 1 frame every 2s on x86 :p | 19:54 |
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| ezjd | Actually I am thinking a Qt framework not depending OpenGL, which is basically SW solution not to a specific chip | 19:58 |
| thiago_home | Qt has a raster engine too | 19:59 |
| tripzero | i have a combustion engine | 19:59 |
| ezjd | yes, that is what exactly I am pointing to :) | 19:59 |
| tripzero | i upgraded from Qt 4.0's "steam engine" | 20:00 |
| thiago_home | on X11, it has 3 engines actually. The third is the native (X11) one. | 20:00 |
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| ezjd | But Harmattan compisitor is based on QGLWidget which is tight to OpenGL and as a fundanmental module, it implies every part of UI will depending on OpenGL | 20:01 |
| thiago_home | yes | 20:01 |
| thiago_home | but the Harmattan compositor is designed to run a specific device | 20:01 |
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| thiago_home | the rest of the applications don't need to depend on GL | 20:02 |
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| ezjd | Yes. As Arjan told me that it will the base of MeeGo. | 20:02 |
| ezjd | Other application can be redered to a back buffer by raster engine but eventually OpenGL involves becauses of compositer | 20:04 |
| thiago_home | yes | 20:05 |
| thiago_home | but if the hardware has no OpenGL, you won't use the compositor | 20:05 |
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| * CosmoHill yawns | 20:07 | |
| ezjd | yes It depends. If window manager uses/is compositor, it will and it is generally true | 20:07 |
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| ezjd | I probably need to look into KWin, for which opengl is optional. | 20:10 |
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| thiago_home | there is no shortage of window managers around | 20:12 |
| ezjd | I gotta go. Talk to you later. | 20:12 |
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| timeless_mbp | hey | 20:35 |
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| timeless_mbp | why is chromium in moblin? | 20:35 |
| MisterN | why not? | 20:36 |
| CosmoHill | what is chromium? | 20:36 |
| Votan | a browser | 20:37 |
| rzr | and a spyware :) | 20:37 |
| CosmoHill | thanks | 20:37 |
| Votan | not really | 20:37 |
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| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: same reason dillo is in debian i guess | 20:37 |
| CosmoHill | to give people choice? | 20:37 |
| timeless_mbp | CosmoHill: most companies that make hardware don't offer choice | 20:38 |
| timeless_mbp | did your last tv ask you if you wanted to use KDE or Gnome? | 20:38 |
| timeless_mbp | mine didn't | 20:38 |
| CosmoHill | i thought we were talking about software | 20:39 |
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| timeless_mbp | CosmoHill: well | 20:48 |
| timeless_mbp | maemo and moblin are closer to platforms for hardware vendors | 20:48 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm assuming that the software i indexed was roughly equivalent to 'core' | 20:49 |
| timeless_mbp | as opposed to 'maemo extras' | 20:50 |
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| CosmoHill | i think i know what you mean | 20:51 |
| mukiex | Seriously, I woulda gone crazy if Nokia had just announced "Maemo for other devices" | 20:51 |
| CosmoHill | you get to choose what extras you have, but not what parts of the core you have | 20:51 |
| mukiex | But Maemo for other devices + x86? Ummmm... Score? | 20:51 |
| timeless_mbp | mukiex: Mer. | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | mukiex: this is a better way. | 20:52 |
| CosmoHill | anyone heard of the LG Pop? | 20:52 |
| mukiex | timeless_mbp : Sadly, the only shot of Mer I saw was incredibly underwelming (0.17 on a Touchbook with eff all installed) | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | iteratively would be very difficult. | 20:52 |
| CosmoHill | LG seem to make cheep touch screen phones | 20:52 |
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| mukiex | Stskeeps: Are there any good Mer builds shown on youtube? | 20:54 |
| Stskeeps | mukiex: sec, got a cool one on n900.. | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | http://twitter.com/stskeeps | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | scroll down to the blip.tv one | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | but, meego is where the action is now. | 20:56 |
| mukiex | People have GOT to stop showing Mer with nothing installed >_< | 20:56 |
| mukiex | When's the first test build/pre-alpha for MeeGo arrive? | 20:57 |
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| Stskeeps | mukiex: weakest point of mer, agreed | 20:58 |
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| mukiex | I wonder if there'll be any attempts to get AndroidExecutionEnvironment on it. | 20:59 |
| Stskeeps | the ubuntu stuff? | 20:59 |
| mukiex | I mean, it couldn't hurt ;) | 21:00 |
| mukiex | Of course, that depends entirely on what the overhead is. | 21:00 |
| Stskeeps | go read the canonical guys blog.. he got ideological scruples and never released the code | 21:00 |
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| * CosmoHill boots the ubuntu moblin remix | 21:02 | |
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| mukiex | Can't seem to find the post, Stskeeps | 21:02 |
| Stskeeps | mukiex: sec | 21:03 |
| mukiex | np | 21:03 |
| Stskeeps | http://blip.tv/file/3209258 | 21:03 |
| Stskeeps | (it is not speeded up.) | 21:04 |
| wind-rider | Stskeeps: will Plasma Mobile be used in meego when it is stable and mature? | 21:06 |
| Stskeeps | wind-rider: i have no authority at all over meego | 21:06 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:06 |
| CosmoHill | hmm something isn't right | 21:06 |
| CosmoHill | using the ubuntu moblin remix, the fastest thing is the mouse cursor | 21:06 |
| wind-rider | no, but I thought you might know it | 21:06 |
| wind-rider | Stskeeps: because you created the channel | 21:07 |
| Stskeeps | nop, sorry, i don't know much about meego contents or plans | 21:07 |
| Stskeeps | wind-rider: just cos i was first person here and the channel exploded | 21:07 |
| wind-rider | Stskeeps: hehe | 21:07 |
| Stskeeps | 1 to 300 in a couple of hours | 21:07 |
| wind-rider | Stskeeps: impressive | 21:08 |
| Terje1 | wind-river, is Plasma Mobile the KDE-thingy? | 21:08 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: indeed | 21:08 |
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| fnordian900 | lol. wind-river is an insult i think :) | 21:09 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: Plasma has several variants targeted at several form factors | 21:09 |
| Terje1 | Oops | 21:10 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: a variant targeted at touch-screen smart phones is developed now | 21:10 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: never mind about that typo | 21:10 |
| Terje1 | wind-rider, ok, sorry. Any reason why Plasma would be taken into use? | 21:11 |
| thiago_home | if it's good, why not? | 21:12 |
| thiago_home | but there's no decision to do it | 21:12 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: it can be used as "home screen" with applets on it | 21:12 |
| mukiex | Stskeeps : Oh no, I meant the Canonical never releasing the Android code. I saw the blip.tv vid, it was pretty neat | 21:12 |
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| Stskeeps | mukiex: oh, sec | 21:13 |
| mukiex | Here's hoping MeeGo gets 3D drivers for Tegra 2 by June/July ^_^ | 21:13 |
| Terje1 | wind-rider, wouldn't hold my breath. | 21:13 |
| ShadowJK | mukiex, even the meego website says that falls to nvidia ;) | 21:13 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: besides normal applets like a calendar or the weather, the user can also send applets from other devices over the network to control the media player on that device for example | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | mukiex: http://mjfrey.blogspot.com/ | 21:14 |
| mukiex | Well, if they support OpenSolaris on the x86 side, hopefully they'll support MeeGo on ARM. Worst-case, hopefully someone can finagle their DSP/3D driver on Ubuntu to work. | 21:14 |
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| thiago_home | mukiex: usually, when someone makes a device and gets a video card, they hire a company to make the drivers that are good | 21:15 |
| Terje1 | wind-rider, are the different Plasma variants somehow compatible? | 21:15 |
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| wind-rider | Terje1: yes | 21:16 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: plasma can also be used for system notifications etc | 21:16 |
| CosmoHill | you know the "join the community" man with his arms in the air? that;'s how i feel about being online | 21:17 |
| wind-rider | thiago_home: did I forget some killer feature? :) | 21:17 |
| Terje1 | wind-rider, I'll wait eagerly for being able to send applets from my telly to my phone. :-) | 21:18 |
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| wind-rider | Terje1: here is an example | 21:19 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: http://www.notmart.org/videodemo/remotejobs.ogv | 21:19 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: a notification applet (in the video it shows a "New Mail" message) and a job applet (shows the progress of a file copying job) are sent from a desktop to a netbook | 21:20 |
| Terje1 | wind-rider, neat. | 21:22 |
| Terje1 | Being able to transport an RSS reader applet from phone to big television… | 21:22 |
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| wind-rider | Terje1: indeed, but also getting a notification when your work computer has finished downloading some large file while sitting on the couch | 21:23 |
| CosmoHill | moblin is pretty | 21:24 |
| wind-rider | Terje1: also a Media Center variant of plasma is in the works, but the priority of that is lower than Plasma Mobile | 21:24 |
| wind-rider | thiago_home, Terje1: do you know who makes decisions about if / when plasma will be used in Meego? | 21:25 |
| CosmoHill | what is mutter and why is it eating my processor? | 21:25 |
| thiago_home | wind-rider: I don't think there's such a group to make that decision yet | 21:25 |
| thiago_home | wind-rider: if it goes on technical terms, it actually is up to the plasma developers to make a story for their app | 21:26 |
| thiago_home | make it good, performant and not use too much batter | 21:26 |
| Terje1 | wind-rider, the only decision makers in Meego are the two announced ones. | 21:26 |
| thiago_home | on my system, someone left an animation running, so Plasma wakes up 60 times per second | 21:26 |
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| wind-rider | thiago_home: you mean the plasma developers should lobby for plasma? | 21:27 |
| Terje1 | It's always the case that getting UI to work in small devices is really hard work. | 21:27 |
| thiago_home | no, I mean that the plasma developers have to make a good app first | 21:27 |
| thiago_home | then lobby | 21:27 |
| wind-rider | thiago_home: ok, that's clear | 21:27 |
| * timeless_mbp looks for Terje0 | 21:28 | |
| thiago_home | I doubt MeeGo would take Plasma if the devs there didn't want it | 21:28 |
| wind-rider | thiago_home: i hope they do not come to late because Plasma Mobile is not finished yet | 21:28 |
| Terje1 | timeless, let me know when you find him. | 21:28 |
| thiago_home | Plasma Netbook is quite advanced though | 21:28 |
| ShadowJK | is plasma that new kde4 thing? | 21:29 |
| wind-rider | thiago_home: with "too late" i mean that there is already another shell chosen | 21:29 |
| leinir | Terje1: Well, the UI working in small devices is something that's already being worked on for Plasma, there's a plasma-desktop, plasma-netbook and a plasma-mobile, which are all looking quite nice :) | 21:29 |
| w00t_ | yes | 21:29 |
| timeless_mbp | Terje1: you need a more unique nick ;-) | 21:29 |
| leinir | ShadowJK: Yup :) | 21:29 |
| ShadowJK | I tried it in kde4 once.. it ran too slow on Q9550 :) | 21:29 |
| wind-rider | leinir: I thought Plasma Mobile was still in the works? | 21:29 |
| wind-rider | ShadowJK: there was a problem with graphics card drivers some time ago | 21:29 |
| Terje1 | timeless, nah, I've got a perfectly good first name. | 21:29 |
| arachnist | ShadowJK: i run kde on my 1.2GHz core2duo + intel x3100 graphics laptop | 21:30 |
| leinir | wind-rider: It is, but it isn't just a pipe dream :) (just you wait until the end of Tokamak4 which is going on right now, it's nifty ;) ) | 21:30 |
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| * timeless_mbp considers begging to differ | 21:30 | |
| arachnist | ShadowJK: and guess what, it's smooth as butter | 21:30 |
| leinir | Sysinfo for 'gamma-orionis': Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop running KDE Development Platform 4.4.00 (KDE 4.4.0) "release 224", CPU: Intel(R) Core 2 Duo CPU T7500 @ 2.20GHz at 2200 MHz (4388 bogomips), HD: 158/195GB, RAM: 3566/3951MB, 259 proc's, 38.8min up | 21:30 |
| leinir | and plasma's as arachnist says smooth as butter :) | 21:30 |
| leinir | (same gfx) | 21:30 |
| wind-rider | leinir: I heard of Tokamak 4 indeed, but I have not seen much blogs or youtube postings about it yet | 21:31 |
| ShadowJK | arachnist, ah, I had huge problems with KDE in general back then. Like the fps in konsole was about a half, with one core at 100% :) | 21:31 |
| leinir | wind-rider: that's because today's mostly presentations :) | 21:31 |
| ShadowJK | one half an fps | 21:31 |
| wind-rider | leinir: yeah, but also over the last two months | 21:31 |
| leinir | ShadowJK: ouch, nasty :) | 21:31 |
| Terje1 | wind-rider, I don't know the situation, but the plasma developers might also want to take a look at what kind of dependencies they have. KDE libraries have a huge footprint. | 21:31 |
| leinir | wind-rider: You can only post so many videos of moving widgets around with a stylus before it gets boring ;) | 21:32 |
| wind-rider | leinir: I meant a video of the things it differed from the plasma-desktop variant for example :) | 21:33 |
| leinir | oh right :) | 21:33 |
| wind-rider | leinir: plasma-netbook has a different interface than plasma-desktop | 21:33 |
| leinir | It does, and it's really swish :) | 21:33 |
| leinir | i'd really like that on my touchbook ;) | 21:34 |
| wind-rider | leinir: and i was expecting plasma-mobile to have something like that to | 21:34 |
| wind-rider | to / too | 21:34 |
| leinir | *nods* Yeah :) Well, they're working on it at T4 - some thirty people with a lot of breadth working all over, afair they've got some intel and nokians there too... but that's just afair, that may well be completely off ;) | 21:35 |
| Stskeeps | T4, btw? | 21:35 |
| w00t_ | tokamak 4 | 21:35 |
| leinir | Stskeeps: Tokamak4, the fourth Plasma developer sprint :) | 21:35 |
| leinir | They're pretty hard core meetups, biggest sprints that KDE hosts :) | 21:35 |
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| Stskeeps | ah | 21:36 |
| wind-rider | leinir: it's a pity those meetings are always somewhere far away... | 21:36 |
| w00t_ | wind-rider: it's a geographical impossibility to get them close to everyone | 21:37 |
| w00t_ | such is the peril of distributed contributors | 21:37 |
| wind-rider | w00t_: i know | 21:37 |
| leinir | wind-rider: Seriously, you're in Holland... You're in a single flight away from most of them :) | 21:37 |
| leinir | T4 is in Nürnberg :) | 21:37 |
| wind-rider | ok, it looks far | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | huh? | 21:38 |
| leinir | If you've never been outside Holland, i'm sure it does ;) | 21:38 |
| wind-rider | leinir: going to Nurnberg for one afternoon / evening? | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | heh, it's not that bad here :-) | 21:38 |
| leinir | wind-rider: s/afternoon/weekend ;) | 21:38 |
| wind-rider | leinir: they have open day on monday afternoon / evening I read | 21:39 |
| timeless_mbp | just don't eat the food | 21:39 |
| leinir | They are there right now :) | 21:39 |
| timeless_mbp | you might get sick | 21:39 |
| * timeless_mbp suffered in Paris | 21:39 | |
| w00t_ | timeless_mbp: heh, what did you eat? | 21:40 |
| timeless_mbp | cold milk | 21:40 |
| wind-rider | leinir: I know they already started, it's just that i don't think i belong there for a whole weekend when i don't commit that often to kde | 21:40 |
| timeless_mbp | (before) | 21:40 |
| timeless_mbp | after i had coke(defizzed) and saltines(roughly) | 21:41 |
| leinir | wind-rider: it sounds like you think that coding is what sprints are for... ;) | 21:41 |
| * DocScrutinizer googles Tokamak4 | 21:41 | |
| wind-rider | leinir: yes, or at least for the people who do the most for kde | 21:42 |
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| timeless_mbp | leinir: the sprint i was at involved quite a bit of coding | 21:42 |
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| timeless_mbp | although there were also some discussions and planning | 21:42 |
| leinir | wind-rider: Nope :) Code is the smallest product from dev sprints - they're mainly for planning and the sort of discussions that just don't work on IRC :) | 21:43 |
| leinir | Sure, there's coding, but that's not really the main thing :) | 21:43 |
| timeless_mbp | we also did some reviews and pushing | 21:43 |
| leinir | Yeah :) | 21:43 |
| wind-rider | leinir: i report bugs on a regular basis and did some feature improvement commits (for koffice and kjots), but it seems like very little compared to what the people who are there do now | 21:43 |
| * timeless_mbp needs to try to finish an rsync someday | 21:44 | |
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| wind-rider | leinir: so that makes me hesitate to go to such things | 21:44 |
| leinir | You really shouldn't hesitate just because your commit count isn't so big :) | 21:44 |
| leinir | There's more to a community member than commit counts ;) | 21:44 |
| timeless_mbp | wind-rider: fwiw, the sprint i went to was for mercurial | 21:44 |
| timeless_mbp | and i'm a minor guy there | 21:44 |
| timeless_mbp | even given that i was only around for half the time, i think my presence was valued | 21:45 |
| wind-rider | timeless_mbp: ok, that sounds nice :) | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm, they're hiding in Northtown of Nuernberg :-P | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | looks like Suse/Novel location | 21:45 |
| wind-rider | leinir, timeless_mbp: well, then maybe I'll come next time :) | 21:46 |
| leinir | wind-rider: *nods* :) | 21:46 |
| leinir | There's plenty of sprints to attend, really, choose your pick :) | 21:46 |
| leinir | KOffice, for one, has an annual one that you might wanna attend :) | 21:47 |
| wind-rider | leinir: KDE-PIM too, which was a few feeks ago | 21:48 |
| leinir | *nods* Yup :) | 21:48 |
| wind-rider | leinir: brb (~15 minutes) | 21:48 |
| leinir | no probs, i'll go make a cuppa ;) | 21:49 |
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| leinir | mmm... tea :) | 22:02 |
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| wind-rider | leinir: i'm back :) | 22:10 |
| leinir | Wooh! \o/ | 22:11 |
| wind-rider | leinir: btw, your nick sounds familiar to me, are you a kde developer? | 22:12 |
| leinir | i am part of the amarok dev squad, and one of the people behind gluon :) | 22:12 |
| wind-rider | leinir: ok, great :) i love amarok | 22:13 |
| wind-rider | leinir: i heard of gluon, but i don't use it (yet) | 22:14 |
| wind-rider | it is a graphics framework, isn't it? | 22:14 |
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| leinir | It's a game creation and distribution system :) | 22:14 |
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| leinir | No worries, you'll hear a lot more about it in the next few months ;) | 22:15 |
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| * CosmoHill shalkes fist at ubuntu moblin | 22:17 | |
| wind-rider | leinir: i see, but I hope it will be actually used, instead of becoming "another framework" | 22:17 |
| wind-rider | leinir: i don't say at all that you are doing useless work, but i had the idea that there are more frameworks around? | 22:18 |
| leinir | Well, it's more than just a framework :) | 22:18 |
| CosmoHill | how do i reboot moblin | 22:18 |
| * CosmoHill blushes for asking a stupid question | 22:19 | |
| leinir | There's plenty of game creation frameworks, but we're doing a lot more :) | 22:19 |
| leinir | CosmoHill: sudo /sbin/reboot? ;) | 22:19 |
| CosmoHill | hehe | 22:19 |
| CosmoHill | I'm so use to command line | 22:19 |
| CosmoHill | GUI is weird to me | 22:19 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: press power button to turn off, or reboot from command line, they are the only options | 22:19 |
| CosmoHill | oo | 22:20 |
| RST38h | no ctrl-alt-del? | 22:20 |
| CosmoHill | there is always ctrl+alt+del | 22:20 |
| CosmoHill | it's written into /etc/inittab | 22:20 |
| ali1234 | but X windows can block it | 22:20 |
| CosmoHill | ah | 22:20 |
| * MikeJB wonders if that ctrl+alt+del thing ever messes with someone who switched from Windows... :P | 22:21 | |
| CosmoHill | i think it's caught me out a few times | 22:22 |
| CosmoHill | i think once i was using windows and linux, opened the task manager..oh crap, wrong keyboard | 22:22 |
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| CosmoHill | my install seems to be very slow and laggy | 22:24 |
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| damien_l | CosmoHill: you press the power button | 22:26 |
| MikeJB | CosmoHill: Unfortunately, as a corollary to Moore's Law, apps get *more* bloated by about triple every two years, which outdoes the doubling of transistors. By 2030, we will barely be able to use anything on non-Alienware computers. | 22:26 |
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| RST38h | By 2030 we will inject 'em with the syringe | 22:27 |
| CosmoHill | I'm running a proper laptop | 22:27 |
| MikeJB | So although computers will get cheaper, we'll have to pay more and more to run things properly :P | 22:27 |
| lcuk | on your lap? | 22:27 |
| lcuk | or cheating and using it on a desk | 22:27 |
| CosmoHill | cheating | 22:27 |
| CosmoHill | i'm hot enough as it is | 22:28 |
| RST38h | The cost of a usable computer has stayed more or less the same over the years | 22:28 |
| * MikeJB is using laptops as advertized. Linux really only uses the fan if you run Flash. | 22:28 | |
| lcuk | do they heat up that much? | 22:28 |
| lcuk | i thought the new ones ran cooler | 22:28 |
| RST38h | You still have to spend at least $1200 for a usable laptop | 22:28 |
| CosmoHill | mine is a mid 2008 philips | 22:28 |
| MikeJB | CosmoHill: HP? Just by running into fellow Pavillion-users, those things heat up a lot and require lots of fan useage. | 22:28 |
| MikeJB | Oh, philips | 22:28 |
| lcuk | RST38h, usable as in laptop for gaming? | 22:28 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Well, things got weird with the temperature | 22:28 |
| lcuk | which i dont see the point of | 22:28 |
| timeless | nah, usable macbooks start at less than $1200 :) | 22:29 |
| CosmoHill | i was backing up my powerbook the other day and it went upto 68'C | 22:29 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Current crop of laptops will slow down the CPU to stay inside the thermal envelope | 22:29 |
| lcuk | timeless, agreed, and thinkpads are reasonable too | 22:29 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Usable as in laptop for office, studio, etc | 22:29 |
| lcuk | RST38h, yeah - everything does | 22:29 |
| lcuk | our n900s are key there | 22:29 |
| CosmoHill | would you like my specs? | 22:29 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Well the problem is that it often slows down the cpu so much that it becomes no faster than a much older laptop | 22:30 |
| lcuk | how will you read things? | 22:30 |
| ShadowJK | there are macbooks <$1200? | 22:30 |
| lcuk | yeah rst | 22:30 |
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| MikeJB | I don't do any 3D gaming because my Intel integrated graphics card on my laptop from several years ago doesn't really handle 3D that well... but even I envy some gaming computers/laptops. I see them as "virtualization machines"... something only a nerd would even know the definition to. ;) | 22:30 |
| lcuk | i have my thinkpad locked to 600 or 800mhz | 22:30 |
| CosmoHill | my friend;s flatmate has killed THREE macbooks in a YEAR | 22:30 |
| timeless | i question "usable" wrt thinkpad input methods | 22:30 |
| RST38h | lcuk: My poor R500 slows down to almost the netbook performance (bu lasts 6+ hours) | 22:30 |
| lcuk | MikeJB, the older cards surely handled 3d fine, it was when they moved over to pixel shaders etc | 22:30 |
| timeless | impressive, how? | 22:30 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: macbook is not a computer, it is an object of lust | 22:31 |
| b-man17 | lol | 22:31 |
| lcuk | timeless, yeah im happy with kb and plugin mouse tho | 22:31 |
| MikeJB | lcuk: I guess it might be able to handle 3D fine when the card came out, but it definitely doesn't handle today's 3D without lag or settings turned off. | 22:31 |
| lcuk | i know the macs give a better kb | 22:31 |
| lcuk | but this is certainly happily usabl | 22:31 |
| MikeJB | I have a feeling a non-Intel might have stood up to time a little more. | 22:31 |
| MikeJB | I mean, I love Intel cpus, but this graphics card just isn't good. | 22:31 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Apple BT keyboard still does not work with Maemo5 though ( | 22:31 |
| lcuk | MikeJB, 3d to me involves polygons and textures | 22:31 |
| MikeJB | I couldn't imagine myself using a non-Intel cpu on a desktop or laptop | 22:31 |
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| lcuk | but thats not enough now | 22:32 |
| CosmoHill | MikeJB: my powerbook used a G4 1.67Ghz :) | 22:32 |
| lcuk | RST38h, where is the fail there | 22:32 |
| lcuk | i suppose i should try it | 22:32 |
| MikeJB | (Yes, I know there's Intel people here, I don't intend to insult them. I wish I had an i7 in my laptop right about now.) | 22:32 |
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| CosmoHill | used little power but gets as hot as hell | 22:32 |
| RST38h | lcuk: updated Bluez no longer handshakes with it | 22:32 |
| lcuk | curious | 22:32 |
| timeless | macbooks start @999 | 22:32 |
| RST38h | lcuk: god knows why | 22:32 |
| timeless | mbp's @1199 | 22:32 |
| CosmoHill | don't forget student discounts | 22:32 |
| timeless | which is less than 1200 :) | 22:33 |
| lcuk | RST38h, anyone put any documentation online | 22:33 |
| RST38h | lcuk: if you can somehow fix it, would be nice =) | 22:33 |
| lcuk | well i have the hardware | 22:33 |
| RST38h | lcuk: what for? | 22:33 |
| * CosmoHill blinks | 22:33 | |
| MikeJB | CosmoHill: student discounts are $100 tops unless you're talking very high end. At the top they double that to about $200. | 22:33 |
| lcuk | ill fire it up when i have some time | 22:33 |
| CosmoHill | did MS just buy yahoo? | 22:33 |
| lcuk | errr not documentation | 22:33 |
| MikeJB | So Macs *still* outprice competition. | 22:33 |
| lcuk | observations/tests etc | 22:33 |
| MikeJB | CosmoHill: No, they bought the search division. Kind of. | 22:33 |
| lcuk | i wouldnt know what im looking for | 22:33 |
| MikeJB | Yahoo now defines itself as a portal. | 22:33 |
| lcuk | so if someone else had something setup i would run over it | 22:33 |
| MikeJB | Which is what it originally was waaaaaaaay back. | 22:33 |
| lcuk | and report back and see what we do and dont have | 22:33 |
| RST38h | Today you buy a Mac, tomorrow you start reading GQ. | 22:34 |
| timeless | mikejb: a friend got me a discount on a mac a few years back | 22:34 |
| MikeJB | CosmoHill: Basically, Yahoo uses Bing for search. Try to understand it past that and your head will exploe. | 22:34 |
| lcuk | Monday you buy a turtleneck sweater and jeans | 22:34 |
| timeless | it basically got me a free cinema display | 22:34 |
| RST38h | lcuk: BLACK sweater | 22:34 |
| lcuk | whatever color lol | 22:35 |
| MikeJB | timeless: Well, I looked into student discounts for my sister who wants a Macbook, and both my university and hers don't discount a laptop more than $100 unless you want the top-end model. | 22:35 |
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| MikeJB | In fact, they use the exact same discount, making me thing it's standard to $100 | 22:35 |
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| MikeJB | Honestly, desktops are dead. I'd prefer a really bulky 17'' laptop with a large external monitor to use with dual-montior work at home rather than a desktop. | 22:36 |
| CosmoHill | I'm using two laptops, and amp and a sky / sat box | 22:36 |
| CosmoHill | why is my bedroom so hot >.< | 22:36 |
| MikeJB | 15:32:25 < CosmoHill> used little power but gets as hot as hell | 22:37 |
| MikeJB | That's why. | 22:37 |
| CosmoHill | aparantly my ubuntumoblin laptop doesn't have a battery | 22:37 |
| MikeJB | There's a reason why server rooms need cooling. :P | 22:37 |
| CosmoHill | the light says it's fully charged | 22:37 |
| CosmoHill | oh yes and my server, forgot about that | 22:37 |
| RST38h | ubuntu moblin remix should probably be called Mublin | 22:38 |
| CosmoHill | i think mublin doesnt like my laptop | 22:38 |
| b-man17 | better than tabuntu xD | 22:38 |
| simula | ubeego | 22:38 |
| MikeJB | ueegoo (pronounced "weego") | 22:39 |
| b-man17 | maebuntu | 22:40 |
| CosmoHill | MeeGo, YouGo? WeeGo! (yay!) | 22:40 |
| MikeJB | why did I put "goo?" | 22:40 |
| MikeJB | I think I'll accidentally call this meegoo :P | 22:40 |
| mukiex | I'd rather have a Tegra2/OMAP4 tablet device with a Pixel Qi screen 'n an HDMI output ;) | 22:40 |
| CosmoHill | cps it's squishy | 22:40 |
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| MikeJB | So are there any meego devices announced yet? | 22:41 |
| lcuk | do we know anything about the number of employed maintaers for the base packages? | 22:41 |
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| CosmoHill | MikeJB: i don't think there is even a meego yet | 22:41 |
| lcuk | maintainers | 22:41 |
| mukiex | There's that one device from LG announced, but with a custom GUI there's almost no point | 22:41 |
| CosmoHill | LH pop? | 22:42 |
| CosmoHill | LG* | 22:42 |
| MikeJB | I hate custom GUIs to various open OSes. | 22:42 |
| MikeJB | That are almost always proprietary to one vendor. | 22:42 |
| mukiex | MikeJB: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/16/lg-gw990-to-be-among-first-meego-phones/ | 22:42 |
| CosmoHill | it would be nice to have one GUI so you could go from nokia to LG to sony and always know your way about | 22:43 |
| microlith | CosmoHill: yeah, but they hate that. "differentiaion" they call it. | 22:43 |
| CosmoHill | it would be nice but you they want to be different | 22:44 |
| microlith | yup | 22:44 |
| MikeJB | mukiex: Engadget! I tried to follow that site on RSS, but they release about 20 articles a day. It's almost impossible to keep up with it. It's like every single phone, tablet, computer, etc., ever announced is on that site. | 22:44 |
| CosmoHill | then again i was looking at the LG pop and thinking "iphone copy cat" | 22:44 |
| CosmoHill | http://www.lge.com/uk/mobile-phones/all-lg-phones/LG-touch-screen-phones-GD510.jsp | 22:44 |
| microlith | MikeJB: they are a gadget site, after all... | 22:44 |
| mukiex | MikeJB: Yeah, it's the only Netvibes window with 40 entries I have ^_^ | 22:45 |
| MikeJB | Yeah, I had to delete the RSS feed and just remember to check the site from time to time. It's annoying when I can "clear" the others from my reader, but not keep up with Endgadget. | 22:46 |
| MikeJB | *Engadget | 22:46 |
| * MikeJB wonders the smallest device size could be for an i7-running tablet or netbook. | 22:46 | |
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| microlith | MikeJB: well, the smallest is whatever is necessary to contain the heatsink | 22:47 |
| MisterN | MikeJB: why do you need a power-guzzling desktop cpu in there? | 22:48 |
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| ali1234 | imagine a N900, with a UPS and a 6" heatsink stuck to it. it would be that size | 22:49 |
| * CosmoHill sighs | 22:49 | |
| MikeJB | MisterN: To run power-guzzling desktop apps on a really tiny screen? :P | 22:49 |
| CosmoHill | mubin seems laggy :( | 22:49 |
| MisterN | MikeJB: most apps are not really cpu-hungry | 22:50 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: you probably don't have the "right" graphics | 22:50 |
| CosmoHill | mutter is using 85% processor | 22:50 |
| MisterN | what is "mutter"? | 22:50 |
| ali1234 | as it will if you don't have the right graphics | 22:50 |
| CosmoHill | i have no idea | 22:50 |
| MikeJB | It probably also requires an i7 to run Vista without lag. ;) | 22:50 |
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| ali1234 | you basically need intel cpu and intel graphics to run moblin | 22:51 |
| MisterN | MikeJB: it should run meego, not vista. | 22:51 |
| CosmoHill | ali1234: it's ubuntu moblin remix | 22:51 |
| MisterN | ali1234: but not to run meego, i hope! | 22:51 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: well, god knows what canonical have done it it | 22:52 |
| CosmoHill | i like your answer | 22:52 |
| MikeJB | Ubuntu is *not* very upstream-friendly when compared to Debian or Fedora. | 22:53 |
| MikeJB | I'm surprised they keep the double-panel of GNOME on their standard desktop release. | 22:53 |
| timeless | i'd hardly call debian "upstream friendly" | 22:54 |
| CosmoHill | ffs damn this | 22:54 |
| CosmoHill | i can't turn my wireless on | 22:54 |
| * CosmoHill stabs it | 22:54 | |
| CosmoHill | now it turns on | 22:54 |
| MikeJB | CosmoHill: proper driver? | 22:54 |
| CosmoHill | yeah it's an intel 5200 wireless n card | 22:55 |
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| CosmoHill | haha | 22:57 |
| CosmoHill | i can pick up my friend's wifi from here | 22:57 |
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| CosmoHill | he live down the street | 22:58 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, you can pick it up, but do you routinely use it? | 22:59 |
| CosmoHill | nope | 22:59 |
| CosmoHill | never used it | 22:59 |
| CosmoHill | it's listed as one of the networks within range | 22:59 |
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| * CosmoHill noms an apple turnover | 23:05 | |
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| CosmoHill | i think ubuntu screwed up the langages too | 23:19 |
| CosmoHill | you end up ????? instead of letters | 23:19 |
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| * CosmoHill downloads the nvidia driver | 23:22 | |
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| * CosmoHill shakes his fist at CSI | 23:28 | |
| CosmoHill | jaguars do not sounds like that | 23:28 |
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| * lcuk makes a fist shaking gui in visual basic to track the errors in csi for CosmoHill | 23:29 | |
| CosmoHill | i need to logout of moblin to login as command line only | 23:29 |
| CosmoHill | ah ha, take that x11 | 23:31 |
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| arjan | CosmoHill: huh? ctrl-alt-f1 gives you a console | 23:38 |
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| CosmoHill | it crashed :( | 23:39 |
| CosmoHill | also why didn't i think of that >.< | 23:39 |
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| CosmoHill | pressing ctrl+alt+F# crashes the computer | 23:44 |
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| CosmoHill | wtf | 23:59 |
| CosmoHill | I've just started gnome inside ubuntu moblin | 23:59 |
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