| CosmoHill | www.cross-lfs.org | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| jebba | to clarify: I was looking into setting up an OBS server, and when I looked into it, they seemed to make it most convenient to set up a server if you were running opensuse or centos. | 00:00 |
| slaine_ | I've been looking to source a Tegra box for use as a SetTopBox, anyone got any pointers ? | 00:00 |
| jebba | ah, CLFS would likely be able to do it, but unlikely to be a choice for everyone.... | 00:01 |
| slaine_ | this would be for a commercial endeavor | 00:01 |
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| jebba | running meego? | 00:01 |
| CosmoHill | jebba: i might give it a go and make a copy of the finished system | 00:01 |
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| slaine_ | jebba: given that Novell have worked closely with Intel on this, I'd guess it's running SuSe | 00:02 |
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| * tripz0 votes it's running moblin | 00:03 | |
| MisterN | slaine_: it's officially SUSE now | 00:04 |
| slaine_ | I just can't keep up | 00:04 |
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| MisterN | it used to be SuSE, which stood for "Software- und System-Entwicklungsgesellschaft mbH" | 00:05 |
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| slaine_ | such a sweet language | 00:06 |
| villemv_fake | language of romance | 00:07 |
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| Clay | i did see zypper in there | 00:10 |
| Clay | not that would guarantee anything | 00:11 |
| jeremiah_ | zypper is great | 00:11 |
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| CosmoHill | i wonder how many of the people here are just idle | 00:14 |
| CosmoHill | or asleep | 00:14 |
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| sp3000 | 328 | 00:15 |
| inz | n-3 | 00:15 |
| fnordianslip | i'm always idle | 00:15 |
| CosmoHill | to me a big channel is 40 ~ 50 people | 00:16 |
| fnordianslip | things seemed to have calmed down alot here over the last few days, compared to announcement day. | 00:16 |
| MisterN | CosmoHill: a big channel is 500+ people :) | 00:16 |
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| fnordianslip | i've been a lurker at maemo for a few years | 00:17 |
| CosmoHill | :o | 00:17 |
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| MisterN | CosmoHill: like #haskell | 00:17 |
| MisterN | 662 people... | 00:17 |
| * CosmoHill faints | 00:17 | |
| CosmoHill | would that be all the people who use that language? | 00:17 |
| MisterN | yeah i guess everybody who uses haskell is in #haskell :D | 00:18 |
| fnordianslip | lol. wonder if #modula2 has that many | 00:18 |
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| fnordianslip | are/were there many non-Intel people working on moblin? | 00:19 |
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| MisterN | fnordianslip: no. | 00:20 |
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| CosmoHill | do you think more non-intel and non-nokia people will be working on meego | 00:20 |
| CosmoHill | ? | 00:20 |
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| ali1234 | it depends whether you count people working on upstream projects | 00:22 |
| CosmoHill | upstream? | 00:22 |
| ali1234 | do you count all kernel developers as "working on moblin?" if so then there's a huge number of not intel and nokia people | 00:22 |
| CosmoHill | ah | 00:23 |
| CosmoHill | no i wouldn't count them | 00:23 |
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| _macros | Hi chat | 00:23 |
| CosmoHill | hey _macros | 00:23 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: not only that but intel and nokia developers work on upstream projects like the kernel as well. do you count them as working on moblin? | 00:25 |
| CosmoHill | hmm | 00:25 |
| fnordianslip | yes, i would | 00:25 |
| ali1234 | s/moblin/meego/ | 00:25 |
| tripz0 | i think if there is a compelling release that shows meego as a compelling platform, 3rd party developers may develop for it | 00:25 |
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| fnordianslip | i was thinking mostly of 'outsiders' working on the meego core? | 00:26 |
| CosmoHill | I'm from cross-lfs so this is new to me | 00:26 |
| da4089 | tripz0: i agree. a lot will depend on how meego-1.0 works out. | 00:26 |
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| fnordianslip | that's the non-Maemo6 meego-1.0 is it? | 00:27 |
| ali1234 | i can't see it making a big difference. meego might help Qt adoption but if i was going to write a project using Qt it write it so it ran anywhere, not just meego | 00:27 |
| ali1234 | and Qt stands on it's own anyway, i think | 00:27 |
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| timeless_mbp | for convenience | 00:27 |
| timeless_mbp | i'd happily exclude people working upstream as working on a project | 00:28 |
| timeless_mbp | roughly that means, as a Nokian working on Mozilla for Maemo | 00:28 |
| timeless_mbp | i shouldn't be counting as working on Maemo when i work on Mozilla | 00:28 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm working on Maemo when i do community building | 00:28 |
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| timeless_mbp | or manage bugs filed against the Maemo delivered browser | 00:28 |
| CosmoHill | that is what i meant | 00:28 |
| fnordianslip | or sigh | 00:29 |
| timeless_mbp | but when i work upstream, i'm working upstream and that shouldn't be counted | 00:29 |
| CosmoHill | i think | 00:29 |
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| CosmoHill | like if i where to work on mozilla i wouldn;t count that as working on clfs | 00:29 |
| CosmoHill | but if i was doing a clfs built and had to patch some of the packages, i;d count that as working on clfs | 00:30 |
| timeless_mbp | right | 00:30 |
| CosmoHill | even tho I;ve written patches for other projects | 00:30 |
| CosmoHill | speaking of which, i need to fix silo again | 00:31 |
| _macros | ali1234, I do not read the whole chat log, so sorry if i am OT, but from an app developer point of view I think meego is a bit more than Qt: e.g. ui framework, api to access gsm part (maybe based on the shiny Moblin ofono) | 00:34 |
| ali1234 | _macros: well, "api to access gsm" = ofono, another upstream project | 00:34 |
| da4089 | fnordianslip: i don't know if anyone knows what meego-1.0 really means, but i meant: the degree of non-Nokia/non-Intel direct participation in meego will depend on what is released. if it's good, i think it will start attracting attention and contributions. | 00:35 |
| ali1234 | and, if i want my Qt app to be portable, which i do, i won;t use any meego specific stuff anyway | 00:35 |
| _macros | (And sorry for my chat-writing style' i'm writing with my n900 ;) | 00:35 |
| CosmoHill | or if you do there would be #ifdef in there a lot | 00:35 |
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| fnordianslip | da4089: thanks for clarifying. lets hope its good :) | 00:36 |
| fnordianslip | I'm on a macbook pro, so you'll have to excuse the odd missing character | 00:36 |
| _macros | (23:38:12) ali1234: and, if i want my Qt app to be portable, which i do, i won;t use any meego specific stuff anyway -- i agree on this | 00:37 |
| ali1234 | really though, i don't think there will be anything which is specific to meego | 00:39 |
| ali1234 | if there is, and it is actually good, it will be ported to all other distros soon enough | 00:39 |
| ali1234 | and therefore will become an upstream project by default | 00:39 |
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| _macros | I think this is a good thing, isn't it? Probably i did not catch the point | 00:42 |
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| ali1234 | yes, it is a good thing | 00:43 |
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| * CosmoHill slaps his mac | 00:46 | |
| CosmoHill | stupid thing is backing up to the hard drive and indexing the hard drive at the same time | 00:46 |
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| _macros | :) | 00:52 |
| CosmoHill | probably took longer and made it over heat | 00:53 |
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| CosmoHill | intresting, my laptop hung when booting cos of the external hard drive | 01:19 |
| * auke sighs, heavily | 01:21 | |
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| CosmoHill | auke: what's up? | 01:22 |
| uhsf | my pc also hung because of external hard drive and i solved it with UUIDs in /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst | 01:22 |
| CosmoHill | mine got past grub2 | 01:23 |
| CosmoHill | hung at the windows part | 01:23 |
| CosmoHill | my new laptop only has USB 2.0 | 01:24 |
| CosmoHill | my powerbook has USB 2.0, FW400 and FW800 | 01:25 |
| CosmoHill | new laptop also has esata but the extnernal hard drive doesn't :( | 01:25 |
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| auke | CosmoHill: apparently I'm a rude person, and what I say content wise is irrelevant to people. They just hate my "tone" | 01:25 |
| zerojay | When you say things the way you do, yes, the content tends to end up becoming irrelevant. | 01:26 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: mine does that too, hangs at bios sometimes while detecting usb drives | 01:26 |
| CosmoHill | my new laptop will detect a USB SD card reader, but not the internal one :s | 01:27 |
| auke | sigh, perhaps I should follow one of these intel cultural sensitivity classes | 01:27 |
| ali1234 | the internal ones are on pci-e usually | 01:27 |
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| ali1234 | which is why it took so long to get them working in linux | 01:27 |
| CosmoHill | ali1234: i thought it would be USB | 01:28 |
| ali1234 | sometimes they are | 01:28 |
| auke | ali1234: then again, people literally take things out context and turn it around. | 01:28 |
| ali1234 | ehy? | 01:28 |
| CosmoHill | hehe | 01:28 |
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| CosmoHill | I just found HP-UNIX on my server | 01:28 |
| zerojay | auke: Look, what it comes down to is the fact that there's a huge community of people who are suddenly told "we're dumping all this stuff we've been doing for 3 years to join those guys there"... so, you know... trying to tone down things in this time of... uncertainty can only help. | 01:29 |
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| auke | you're telling the person who's asked twice on the list to tone things down | 01:29 |
| auke | and come up with answers to everyone asking | 01:29 |
| zerojay | auke: And to be fair, Seb is definitely the kind of guy that does get into trouble for the exact same reasons too. | 01:30 |
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| auke | no harm in admitting I go too far too. I certainly once in a while do :) | 01:30 |
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| zerojay | auke: There's a lot of emotion involved right now... myself included... so we all just have to try to get past this initial awkward stage intact and see what happens. | 01:31 |
| arjan | zerojay: there's a lot of emotion, and a few loud guys as well ;_) | 01:31 |
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| arjan | and that sets a negative atmosphere a little | 01:32 |
| zerojay | arjan: Yep, sure are. | 01:32 |
| auke | I'm trying hard to give honest answers | 01:32 |
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| auke | it hurts if those honest answers are inverted at me back | 01:32 |
| auke | most of all | 01:32 |
| arjan | sometimes it is just best to ignore the loudmouths | 01:32 |
| arjan | zerojay: do you know if the loudest guys are truely maemo guys | 01:32 |
| * CosmoHill gives auke a hug | 01:32 | |
| auke | ahaha | 01:33 |
| arjan | or do we have a bunch of non-maemo loudmoths just kicking a rucus | 01:33 |
| auke | now I feel funny | 01:33 |
| zerojay | auke: I'm sure you have been trying. | 01:33 |
| CosmoHill | :) | 01:33 |
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| auke | also, I really think that most people have the same ideas about everything, it's just, not coming out yet. (not that I want a group-hug-session like cosmohill here is promoting) | 01:33 |
| zerojay | arjan: As one of those being loud and negative to this point, I can tell you that yes, most of them are true-blue Maemo users who are upset and hurt at what they've seen. | 01:33 |
| arjan | ok. | 01:34 |
| arjan | here on irc it was not quite that way | 01:34 |
| arjan | we had some guys here being loud... and later admitting they'd never even used maemo | 01:34 |
| auke | I personally hate the fact that some people decided a cold shower was a great way to start off a party | 01:35 |
| zerojay | arjan: And I know it's not anyone on the Moblin side purposely trying to cause anyone shit... the lashing out is from being so personally invested in a project and then getting the feeling that it's been yanked out of your hands and given to other people who are making all sorts of decisions without engaging us. | 01:35 |
| CosmoHill | auke: do you mean cold shoulder? | 01:35 |
| mikeleib | I think either can ruin your party experience | 01:36 |
| auke | I .. do not know what a cold shoulder is | 01:36 |
| CosmoHill | true | 01:36 |
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| auke | it sounds awkward | 01:36 |
| mikeleib | would make a good name for a band or mixed drink | 01:36 |
| mikeleib | s/a band or// | 01:36 |
| CosmoHill | mikeleib: it is a band | 01:37 |
| mikeleib | zowy | 01:37 |
| CosmoHill | auke: a cold shoulder means to ignore somebody | 01:37 |
| CosmoHill | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cold%20shoulder | 01:37 |
| TimRiker | GeneralAntilles, you asked me to add infobot here. If folks want my bot in here, I need to hear from a channel op. Note: the bot logs publicly. | 01:38 |
| mikeleib | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Shoulder | 01:38 |
| auke | CosmoHill: thanks, never heard of that expression before :) | 01:38 |
| mikeleib | also album of singer | 01:38 |
| CosmoHill | TimRiker: we already have a bot that logs | 01:38 |
| CosmoHill | i thinmk | 01:38 |
| arjan | zerojay: I'm hoping that the dust will settle a little and that then people also see the positive side | 01:38 |
| CosmoHill | something keeps logs | 01:38 |
| arjan | zerojay: and I hope that people realize that on both sides unpopular comprimises were made | 01:38 |
| auke | I seem to also have a hard time figuring out what the affiliations are on the lists | 01:39 |
| auke | there are a lot of @debian.org posters for instance | 01:39 |
| auke | and some random domain names I can't place | 01:39 |
| ali1234 | i honestly don't know why all the people who are unhappy don't just join the mer project and make their own thing | 01:39 |
| zerojay | arjan: As someone that is having a hard time with all of it... I know that it will calm down and cooler heads will prevail. Just give it a little time. | 01:39 |
| TimRiker | CosmoHill, so I see. my bot does a lot more than just log. I'm just replying to GeneralAntilles's request though. use whatever bot you like. :) | 01:39 |
| ali1234 | i don't know why they didn't do it 6 months ago | 01:39 |
| ali1234 | or 3 years | 01:39 |
| zerojay | ali1234: Because it's not anywhere near the same thing. | 01:40 |
| ali1234 | why? | 01:40 |
| CosmoHill | i use a bot that logs the last thing a user sent | 01:40 |
| auke | ali1234: with moblin I've even promoted that people do that (make public moblin repos) - didn't really happen just jet though | 01:40 |
| CosmoHill | so if you did !seen auke it would give you the time and the last thing he said | 01:40 |
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| zerojay | auke: http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who | 01:40 |
| ali1234 | zerojay: if maemo and moblin and meego are as open as is always claimed it should not be difficult at all | 01:40 |
| arjan | zerojay: this channel seems to also get a bunch of good dialog going | 01:40 |
| arjan | zerojay: the thing is, now that stuff is announced we can finally have that dialog | 01:41 |
| ali1234 | zerojay: if they are not, well, that is a much bigger problem than what people are currently raging about | 01:41 |
| zerojay | ali1234: It's not about difficulty. It's the fact that Mer isn't the community at large. | 01:41 |
| auke | zerojay: hmm I should add myself to that wiki :) | 01:41 |
| ali1234 | the community seems to be nothing but a distraction | 01:41 |
| zerojay | ali1234: Mer, as much as I like the guys working on it, isn't where the excitement is in the Maemo community when new devices are released. | 01:41 |
| TimRiker | CosmoHill, I run apt/ibot/infobot/purl in a bit over a hundred channels on freenode. Sources on the infobot project on SF. as the bot has been around for many years, there are a lot of logs, many factoids, seen information etc. but as I said, use what you like. I was just replying to a memo. | 01:42 |
| ali1234 | i thought this was mainly about support for old devices? (the raging i mean) | 01:42 |
| zerojay | ali1234: Depends on how you decide to treat it. | 01:42 |
| zerojay | ali1234: Nope, not at all. | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | TimRiker, sorry, was stuck in scrollback. | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, jeremiah_, andre_, somebody with op, ping? :P | 01:42 |
| CosmoHill | TimRiker: cool | 01:42 |
| TimRiker | GeneralAntilles, np | 01:42 |
| zerojay | ali1234: With the N900 being a possible exception since it's still so new. | 01:43 |
| ali1234 | zerojay: what exactly are people unhappy about then? | 01:43 |
| CosmoHill | GeneralAntilles: there are no ops...there are only ninjas | 01:43 |
| ali1234 | or is it just the general uncertainty? | 01:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Damn Stskeeps for setting up a useless access list. :P | 01:43 |
| CosmoHill | !access | 01:43 |
| wihi | when the different projects start showing up on meego start showing up and people start getting a part to play in new community i'm guessing everything will move on fast, maem.org community love doing work | 01:44 |
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| zerojay | ali1234: Part of it is uncertainty. Part of it is feeling like they've been deeply involved in something for so long to suddenly see it ripped from their hands and delivered to someone else (true or not). | 01:44 |
| TimRiker | /cs access #meego list will show you the registered ops. | 01:44 |
| zerojay | wihi: Yeah, that's pretty much right. | 01:44 |
| ali1234 | zerojay: nothing has been taken away, all the stuff that was available before is still available | 01:44 |
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| CosmoHill | TimRiker: ooo thanks | 01:44 |
| TimRiker | so what is meego? a maemo fork? | 01:44 |
| CosmoHill | maemo + moblin | 01:44 |
| CosmoHill | merger of the two projects | 01:45 |
| zerojay | ali1234: The community has no/little say or involvement at this point. | 01:45 |
| TimRiker | cool. something working now? all open source? targeting phones or just netbooks? | 01:45 |
| zerojay | ali1234: And you might say that's a good thing, but... | 01:45 |
| CosmoHill | or "make love" as someone put it (that made me shudder) | 01:45 |
| tripz0 | TimRiker, both | 01:45 |
| ali1234 | zerojay: i was just about to say that actually, given the current display of what the community is like | 01:46 |
| ShadowJK | ali1234, funny you should mention Mer, in many ways I thought/think Meego obsoletes Mer in a good way | 01:46 |
| arjan | zerojay: you mean 'the part of the community that isn't inside nokia' | 01:46 |
| tripz0 | TimRiker, it will target phones and netbooks. | 01:46 |
| TimRiker | cool. once I have a few more of my phones available I'd like to help get it running there too. :) http://saygus.com/vphone | 01:46 |
| ali1234 | zerojay: but more to the point, how is that different from before? did the community have a say in the /opt mess? | 01:46 |
| arjan | zerojay: since clearly part of the community has been involved, just the inside-nokia part | 01:46 |
| CosmoHill | maybe tablet pcs too | 01:46 |
| zerojay | ali1234: Don't judge the community based on the emotional reaction to... well... losing everything. | 01:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | TimRiker, interactive TVs, media phones, and cars, too. | 01:46 |
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| zerojay | arjan: I wouldn't call that anywhere near "part of the community", really. | 01:47 |
| CosmoHill | GeneralAntilles: basically embedded things with a gui? | 01:47 |
| arjan | I'm not all that familiar with the details of how maemo worked | 01:47 |
| arjan | so can't really judge that | 01:47 |
| zerojay | arjan: And no, we didn't get a say about the /opt mess either and man, that was annoying. | 01:47 |
| jku_ | zerojay, why is that? | 01:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, well, sort of. | 01:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, we got a big say in the specifics of the implementation. | 01:47 |
| zerojay | jku_: There's a lot more to the maemo community than just Nokians. | 01:47 |
| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: And it appears we aren't anymore. | 01:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, unfortunately Nokia seemed to have realized it was an issue too late for any serious architecting. | 01:48 |
| ShadowJK | ali1234, I guess you didn't see the video where maemo.org people ("outside of nokia") stood with maemo ("inside nokia") people on the same stage and talked about the space issue on the pre-produciton betas and promised they'd work out something better than the situation on Maemo4 :-) | 01:48 |
| zerojay | Therefore people are upset. | 01:48 |
| TimRiker | is any more of maemo available as open source now? ie: the video calling app etc? | 01:48 |
| jku_ | zerojay, I understood you said they aren't a part of the community... | 01:48 |
| ali1234 | ShadowJK: it should make the idea of Mer easier to bring about, but the idea of a true community distro which is outside of the reach of commercial interests will never be obsolete | 01:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | TimRiker, yes, there's more open source stuff in Maemo than there used to be. | 01:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | TimRiker, and even more with it merging with Moblin. | 01:48 |
| zerojay | ali1234: Anyways, just give it some time to let stuff settle down a bit. When things are a little more mature, you'll see what the community can really do in a positive manner. | 01:48 |
| zerojay | jku_: Nokians are definitely a part of the Maemo community... but they are a small portion of the overall community at large. | 01:49 |
| arjan | once we can talk about code and cool technical stuff maybe things will settle down | 01:49 |
| arjan | I can talk about some of the cool stuff for PC like things we're doing | 01:49 |
| zerojay | Yes, things definitely will. | 01:49 |
| ShadowJK | arjan, when maemo people say "community", I think it has a heavy emphasis on "user community", but obviously third party developers (as in apps) are represented in that too.. | 01:49 |
| arjan | (and yes, being able to run the same code on your laptop IS cool) | 01:49 |
| zerojay | ShadowJK: Yep. | 01:50 |
| lcuk | arjan, that was the idea anyway | 01:50 |
| lcuk | qt is everywhere | 01:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | TimRiker, since all of our useless European ops seem to have wandered off, can I have somebody poke you later so you don't need to wait around? ;) | 01:50 |
| arjan | so.. what you'll see in our release in terms of new tech that other linux doesnt' do yet.... | 01:50 |
| arjan | (and we have the code already) | 01:51 |
| arjan | we use syslinux as bootloader on x86, with native resolution splash screen | 01:51 |
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| arjan | we'll use the new btrfs filesystem.. which has built in compression, can do snapshots (so you can so 'restore to factory' by just wiping the snapshot) etc | 01:51 |
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| arjan | it'll boot fast ;-) | 01:51 |
| zerojay | Those of you who haven't already done so... go ahead and add yourself to this: http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who | 01:51 |
| ShadowJK | arjan, how is btrfs stability these days? | 01:52 |
| arjan | we have it in daily builds since september | 01:52 |
| arjan | we have no open bugs | 01:52 |
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| arjan | it's actually rather rock solid for us | 01:52 |
| tripz0 | arjan, are you talking about what will be installed on handsets or netbooks? | 01:52 |
| arjan | this is teh x86 part | 01:52 |
| arjan | on handsets you have an interesting thing | 01:52 |
| ShadowJK | Ah, last time I tried it on an ARM device I got a Out of space error at 50% full, followed by kernel OOPS :D | 01:52 |
| arjan | since you may have "raw flash" not "block device flash" | 01:52 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: the diskspace thing got solevd in the .32 kernel | 01:53 |
| arjan | that was the only really big issue that was left | 01:53 |
| ShadowJK | ah, nice, I should try it again. nilfs2 is chewing up the write cycles on my sheevaplug :D | 01:53 |
| arjan | raw flash --> need a different filesystem type | 01:53 |
| mikeleib | MTD to the rescue | 01:53 |
| ShadowJK | ubifs is really good here I think, does compression too | 01:53 |
| arjan | yeah on raw flash, ubifs seems to be the winner | 01:54 |
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| arjan | no argument | 01:54 |
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| ShadowJK | mikeleib, I would really not want to see block emulation used when you have the *luxury* of having raw flash | 01:54 |
| jku_ | arjan, are we exposing the snapshot stuff in any way? | 01:54 |
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| arjan | jku_: in the first iteration not too much | 01:54 |
| tripz0 | ShadowJK, does the sheeva have raw flash? ubifs works good on mine | 01:54 |
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| ShadowJK | tripz0, Yeah I'm not using it though | 01:54 |
| tripz0 | sd? | 01:54 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: I suspect reality will be that for many things you won't see the raw flash | 01:54 |
| ShadowJK | arjan, yeah | 01:55 |
| ShadowJK | tripz0, current running off of 2 USB flash keys | 01:55 |
| arjan | that's more a component supplier reality than a software influenced one | 01:55 |
| mikeleib | heh. luxury | 01:55 |
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| ShadowJK | mikeleib, the FTL in SD/emmc type things *really* suck | 01:55 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: the good news is that btrfs is awesome if your FTL sucks | 01:56 |
| ShadowJK | btrfs atleast used to have a "ssd" mode, where ssd really meant "cheap ssd" | 01:56 |
| arjan | due to the copy-on-write semantics | 01:56 |
| mikeleib | ShadowJK: I'm not arguing. I just find raw flash as a luxury humours | 01:56 |
| CosmoHill | i have a question, if my BIOS doesn't allow be to boot to my internal SD card reader, would grub2? | 01:56 |
| mikeleib | s/humours/humorous/ | 01:57 |
| arjan | CosmoHill: o | 01:57 |
| arjan | CosmoHill: (and why on earth grub2... shudder) | 01:57 |
| arjan | no | 01:57 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: probably not, no | 01:57 |
| tripz0 | lol | 01:57 |
| CosmoHill | cos grub1 won't combine on 64bit | 01:57 |
| ShadowJK | mikeleib, ah it's luxury because you can do FTL in software and not have to endure the braindead ftl of sd | 01:57 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: again, this is because it is a PCI device, not a bios disk like you would get from usb devices with bios emulation | 01:58 |
| auke | haha yeah grub1 on pure 64-bit is painful | 01:58 |
| CosmoHill | damn laptop makers | 01:58 |
| mikeleib | indeed.. FTL on sd is really poor | 01:58 |
| ShadowJK | where 4k writes gets translated into 256k read-modify-write cycle | 01:58 |
| CosmoHill | it's actually EFI instead of a BIOS | 01:58 |
| ali1234 | dunno then. but afaik grub doesn't support mmc card slots directly which would be required | 01:59 |
| CosmoHill | it's not a mac laptop | 01:59 |
| ShadowJK | On N900 where you have extra apps installed onto the emmc, there is very noticeable increased UI latency due to the increased paging latency when for example you have gpodder downloading a postcast to the emmc at the same time | 01:59 |
| ShadowJK | (fun factoid: N900 comes with a default /proc/sys/vm/swappiness of 100) :D | 02:00 |
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| arjan | we do the same thing to swappiness | 02:00 |
| arjan | need to | 02:00 |
| CosmoHill | I'm off to bed, night nighht | 02:01 |
| arjan | sucks too much otherwise | 02:01 |
| ShadowJK | Bump it to 100 you mean? | 02:01 |
| arjan | yeah basically let it not swap unless | 02:01 |
| CosmoHill | 100 means swap like crazy right? | 02:01 |
| arjan | eh forgot the direction | 02:01 |
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| arjan | we set it to the one where it means "almost never swap" | 02:01 |
| ShadowJK | The previous maemo devices came with swappiness of 1 | 02:01 |
| CosmoHill | ah kk | 02:01 |
| CosmoHill | cyas | 02:01 |
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| tripz0 | arjan, so brtfs on an ssd with compression would be snappier booting than say ext4 or nilfs2? | 02:02 |
| arjan | tripz0: I think so | 02:02 |
| arjan | especially on rotating disk, btrfs kicks ass | 02:02 |
| arjan | on ssd... the difference is a bit less | 02:02 |
| auke | cpu accelerated decompression might add another boost | 02:02 |
| ShadowJK | in the context of mobile we're unlikely to see SSDs for many years I'd think? | 02:02 |
| arjan | decompression tends to be fast-ish | 02:02 |
| arjan | it's the compression side that is cpu intensive | 02:03 |
| ShadowJK | if by "SSD" we mean the noncrap ones like Intel and indilinx | 02:03 |
| * tripz0 wonders if atom has optimizations for that... | 02:03 | |
| arjan | ShadowJK: well an SSD is just a flash thing... | 02:03 |
| arjan | tripz0: there's some atom sse code for zlib and stuff | 02:03 |
| arjan | but decompress is bloody fast already, it's hard to get more than 10% on that | 02:03 |
| arjan | (just as a side note, I spent a day last week looking at zlib performance ;-) ) | 02:04 |
| ShadowJK | tripz0, I suspect that for booting ext4 and btrfs will beat nilfs2. While reading I think nilfs2 by design ends up seeking all over the place (yeah it's flash, but mmc command overhead and so on...) | 02:04 |
| arjan | btrfs has some really nice properties | 02:04 |
| arjan | like | 02:04 |
| mikeleib | snapshots | 02:04 |
| arjan | for small files... the inode, dentry and the data are next to eachother | 02:04 |
| ShadowJK | Stuff like nilfs2 and LogFS seem designed to avoid the achilles heel of crap-SD: random writes | 02:04 |
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| arjan | often in the same block | 02:04 |
| arjan | so with one IO you get all three essential parts of using a file into memory | 02:05 |
| arjan | rather than three ios (even if you don't have seeks) | 02:05 |
| arjan | and if you look at your filesystem.. there's an aweful high amount of small files around | 02:05 |
| tripz0 | ShadowJK, any idea when nilfs2 will fix the write everything a bazillion times annoyance? | 02:05 |
| ShadowJK | tripz0, no idea :) | 02:05 |
| mikeleib | IIRC, reiser could stuff small files into the inode | 02:05 |
| ShadowJK | Maybe if I had less than 80% fill it'd do less of it | 02:05 |
| ShadowJK | not sure | 02:06 |
| mikeleib | But, in a power outage, it ate my ld.so.conf (a small file) | 02:06 |
| arjan | mikeleib: yeah it did that kinda as well. Chris Mason did a lot of work on reiserfs... the good bits made it into btrfs ;-) | 02:06 |
| tripz0 | ooo | 02:06 |
| mikeleib | I switches to JFS after that | 02:06 |
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| ShadowJK | arjan, I remember btrfs had this mode where it releaxed on-disk placement at write time, favouring sequential writing instead of placing it so that reads would be sequential? | 02:06 |
| TimRiker | mikeleib, you used reiser and small in the same sentence. wow. | 02:06 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: well... it kinda does it smart so that you get both | 02:07 |
| ShadowJK | hm | 02:07 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: it has an internal online defragmenter | 02:07 |
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| ShadowJK | what :) | 02:07 |
| arjan | so as long as you have enough free space.. you can get sequential writes in a way where reads still don't suck | 02:07 |
| TimRiker | GeneralAntilles, ok, I'm around, but I'm lagging while working. | 02:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | TimRiker, awesome, thanks! | 02:08 |
| ShadowJK | Does this thing run in the background, require user/admin poking, or integral part of how btrfs operates? | 02:08 |
| arjan | we have a guy looking at seeing if we can tweak btrfs so that it sort of is aware that it's on a cheap flash thing | 02:08 |
| ShadowJK | awesome :) | 02:08 |
| arjan | the defragger triggers on admin kind of things, but also if things get too bad | 02:08 |
| arjan | the real intereting thing, and that does not exist yet, is that in principle the btrfs architecture can deal with having both fast and slow flash | 02:09 |
| arjan | say 64Gb of slow cheap flash | 02:09 |
| arjan | and 512Mb of fast expensive flash | 02:09 |
| arjan | and then you can make it put all the "hot" data on the fast flash automatic | 02:09 |
| ShadowJK | I get the impression that the idea for Maemo6 was to run everything off of emmc, but I can tell on N900 already that it will suck hard with ext3 | 02:09 |
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| arjan | having your big mp3s on cheap flash, but all the stuff used all the time on fast flash... that's quite compelling | 02:10 |
| lcuk | arjan, multiple speed data has been around for ages and ages | 02:10 |
| arjan | lcuk: it has | 02:10 |
| arjan | lcuk: and now using it right is actually getting close ;-) | 02:10 |
| arjan | I know EMC does it all the time | 02:10 |
| lcuk | ondie cache level 2,3 memory, drive caches, speedboost (or whatever MS called it) | 02:11 |
| lcuk | theres all sorts of combinations | 02:11 |
| arjan | oh absolutely | 02:11 |
| ShadowJK | You know, benchmarks of the raw nand on the N900 and of the emmc actually show the emmc kicks the nand's ass in sequential write and read performance.. What makes the raw nand faster is ubifs vs ext3/vfat on stupid-hw-FTL :D | 02:11 |
| lcuk | ShadowJK, wheres the benchies? | 02:11 |
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| arjan | ShadowJK: makes me wonder how btrfs would do | 02:12 |
| arjan | vfat is gonna suck no matter which way you spin it | 02:12 |
| ShadowJK | it was in one of those giant "omg dude where's fdisk I'm going to magically make the / partition span two devices and fix all the problems and create world peace like yeah unicorns"-threads on talk.maemo.org | 02:12 |
| ShadowJK | vfat vs ext3 benchmark results on sd mostly inspires one to make a facepalm gesture | 02:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | hi TimRiker :-) | 02:14 |
| arjan | vfat is the worst format for cheap FTL | 02:14 |
| arjan | ext3 is a not too distant second ;) | 02:14 |
| ShadowJK | but the cheap FTL's were designed to support vfat weren't they? ;-) | 02:14 |
| * TimRiker smiles | 02:15 | |
| arjan | ShadowJK: if cheap FTL was designed then it'd not be cheap. | 02:15 |
| arjan | it's more "slapped together and then puked on until the marketing people could sell it" | 02:15 |
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| ShadowJK | I thought it was Sony or Olympus or someone equally, um, short sighted that made it ages ago, and hten everyone else silently copied it ever since... | 02:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ~praise Father Tim | 02:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-( | 02:19 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Oh, look, an op. | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | wooow | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | dirkhh/arjan, mind if we get Infobot in here? | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | /invite infobot | 02:19 |
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| uhsf | it really sucks that the channel is now divided in two | 02:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | yup | 02:20 |
| simula_ | the channel is divided in two? | 02:21 |
| ali1234 | you mean three right? | 02:21 |
| simula_ | heh | 02:21 |
| uhsf | the maemon channel is now divided in two | 02:21 |
| mikeleib | ?netsplit? | 02:21 |
| uhsf | i don't know if there is or was a moblin channel | 02:22 |
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| uhsf | not a netsplit, intel nokia megacorp split | 02:23 |
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| GeneralAntilles | uhsf, my channel list is always increasing. | 02:23 |
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| mikeleib | my IRC client lets me join lots of channels | 02:23 |
| uhsf | i'd like mine to stay low | 02:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I need a better multicore for my brain | 02:24 |
| uhsf | maybe i will be here one day and on maemo the next day and alternatively | 02:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer | taskswitching overhead is higher than payload | 02:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer | OMG what a cloak | 02:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: infobot? | 02:31 |
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| ShadowJK | looking at meego's who's who wiki... it must be really confusing for someone not familiar with maemo... the sortof multi-tiered nokia<->maemo<->maemo.org structure | 02:38 |
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| GAN900 | Our power is in our obfuscation? | 02:39 |
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| zerojay | ShadowJK: We are borg. | 02:42 |
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| ShadowJK | not quite | 02:42 |
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| ShadowJK | exaggering a bit, there's the "inside nokia's walls" people that are locked in a basement for 12 months coding, the people paid to maintain the maemo.org website and associated services, the userbase of novice users, powerusers, "hackers", "apps" developers and so on, and the council elected by the userbase to represent them to bang on the gates of nokia yelling "users need more than 40 Megs to install apps!" and such :) | 02:48 |
| zerojay | Yeah, exactly. | 02:48 |
| zerojay | Borg. | 02:48 |
| zerojay | ;) | 02:49 |
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| lpotter | we are not borg. we are norg. or morg | 02:50 |
| ShadowJK | I just noticed the complete absence of "inside nokia's walls"-people on meego's who's who wiki article ;) | 02:51 |
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| ShadowJK | Well I guess qgil should be counted, he's both :) | 02:51 |
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| lpotter | there are lots of both not listed there | 02:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK, yeah, I think that'll be a slower transition for Nokia. | 02:54 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Judging by crashanddie's new thread I can see I missed some fun on MeeGo-dev. | 02:57 |
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| timeless_mbp | ShadowJK: hey, i'm in that article, aren't i? | 02:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, you don't count. | 02:59 |
| timeless_mbp | thanks :) | 02:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | You know what I mean. :P | 03:00 |
| ShadowJK | timeless_mbp, I must've missed it | 03:00 |
| timeless_mbp | ShadowJK: i'm the last line of the page :) | 03:00 |
| timeless_mbp | while i'm not counting, can someone help me w/ apache? :) | 03:00 |
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| * timeless_mbp grumbles | 03:02 | |
| timeless_mbp | the stupid meego wiki site hates me | 03:03 |
| timeless_mbp | why can't i edit http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who ? | 03:03 |
| tripz0 | arjan, random question for you, why doesn't moblin use tuxonice? | 03:03 |
| tripz0 | doh! he probably went home | 03:04 |
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| lpotter | timeless_mbp: are you logged in? | 03:04 |
| timeless_mbp | lpotter: i seem to be half logged in | 03:04 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm logged into meego.com | 03:04 |
| timeless_mbp | but not wiki.meego.com | 03:04 |
| timeless_mbp | and the login link on wiki.meego.com doesn't work | 03:04 |
| timeless_mbp | which is stupid | 03:04 |
| timeless_mbp | instead i have to log out | 03:04 |
| timeless_mbp | and then log in which takes me to the meego.com login page (which has a universal login option) instead of the wiki native login page | 03:05 |
| lpotter | what is a "MeeGo developer"? | 03:05 |
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| ShadowJK | is meego.org all same user/pass or does it copy maemo.org's silly different user/pass for everything? :) | 03:06 |
| timeless_mbp | a piece of vaporwear | 03:06 |
| * arjan is still here | 03:06 | |
| arjan | tripz0: why would it? | 03:06 |
| arjan | suspend to disk sucks | 03:06 |
| arjan | really | 03:06 |
| arjan | we can boot faster than it takes to resume | 03:06 |
| Hydroxide | ShadowJK: I think you want meego.com - meego.org seems unrelated :) | 03:06 |
| arjan | (and tuxonice is a royal pain patch) | 03:07 |
| ShadowJK | oops | 03:07 |
| tripz0 | arjan, it seems like resuming to a given state would be useful on netbooks and even automotive applications | 03:07 |
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| Hydroxide | jimmy@rogue:~$ whois meego.org | egrep -i 'registrant (name|country)' | 03:07 |
| Hydroxide | Registrant Name:sun alex | 03:07 |
| Hydroxide | Registrant Country:CN | 03:07 |
| Hydroxide | heh | 03:07 |
| ShadowJK | throw N900 completely offline and it idles for days, the only use for suspend to ram would be to hotswap... coldswap... uh, lukewarm-swap the battery :D | 03:08 |
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| arjan | tripz0: but tux on ice isn't that ;-( | 03:08 |
| arjan | it's a massively invasive patch which is a royal pain | 03:08 |
| arjan | I wish the guy would get his improvements upstream | 03:08 |
| Hydroxide | I'm rather surprised that intel+nokia chose the name meego without securing .com + .org + .net, but *shrug* maybe that conventional wisdom is less important than rumored | 03:08 |
| timeless_mbp | Hydroxide: conventional wisdom is nonexistent here up north | 03:09 |
| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: and out west too? | 03:09 |
| rwhitby | meego.me was available last time I looked to | 03:09 |
| timeless_mbp | as for why the new world part of the group failed to do the job | 03:09 |
| ShadowJK | I think it's extinct | 03:09 |
| * timeless_mbp shrugs | 03:09 | |
| Hydroxide | they did get .net though | 03:10 |
| Hydroxide | LF I mean, along with .com | 03:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: suspend-to-ram for swapping bat? don't see that | 03:11 |
| ShadowJK | oops, of course I meant suspend to disk | 03:11 |
| arjan | linux has been trying s-t-d for.. years | 03:12 |
| arjan | and frankly, it sucks | 03:12 |
| arjan | no offence to the people working on it, but it does | 03:12 |
| arjan | (but it sucks on windows a well to be honest) | 03:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | we are morg. resistance is futile (if <0.1 Ohm) | 03:12 |
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| ShadowJK | it mostly works on my fedora install, and that's even with the nvidia binary blob | 03:14 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: what does osx do? | 03:14 |
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| ShadowJK | (but sometimes it takes half an hour to suspend to disk) | 03:14 |
| simula_ | heh | 03:15 |
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| arjan | ShadowJK: we boot in 5 seconds... isn't half an hour excessive ? ;) | 03:15 |
| arjan | timeless_mbp: my mac mini seems to be kinda odd in that respect | 03:15 |
| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: also just took a look at the US trademark filings related to meego - happily there's no other live trademark for "MEEGO" exactly besides LF's filing, but look at this registered trademark for "MEEGOS": http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4008:d7qgo0.2.1 | 03:16 |
| timeless_mbp | Hydroxide: meegos is funny | 03:16 |
| * mikeleib flees | 03:16 | |
| timeless_mbp | the first intro emails for meego told people to sign up for accounts | 03:16 |
| timeless_mbp | the address we were given was to meegos :) | 03:16 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: don't get me wrong, I can see use cases for suspend to disk | 03:16 |
| ShadowJK | arjan, well I'm talking about workstation here.. I like keeping my 25 xterms open and on the desktop and position they were when I stopped using the computer for the day :-) | 03:17 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: but I'm sad it sucks so much as experience | 03:17 |
| arjan | ShadowJK: I love Konsole.. it has good session management ;-) | 03:17 |
| arjan | but sure | 03:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Ameego!! | 03:17 |
| ShadowJK | For a netbook (which I don't own) I'm not sure I'd find a use fot suspend to disk either | 03:17 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: vbox has good session management :) | 03:17 |
| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: it's news to me - and wow, actually the meegos people might have a valid claim in the relevant trademark class to the term 'meego' as well - they use 'meego' as the singular for 'meegos'. and owch | 03:18 |
| Hydroxide | s/ and owch// | 03:18 |
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| ShadowJK | I switched to plain xterm after KDE4 came and konsole had acquired a few crashy bugs :-) | 03:18 |
| timeless_mbp | Hydroxide: i would not shed one tear if they filed, fought, and won :) | 03:18 |
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| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: it's not an issue I have a role in, which means I can just grab the popcorn and watch amusedly :) I do hope the product itself succeeds, but they really should have done a bit more research regarding the name, even aside from the availability of "MeeGo Pee Now" jokes :) | 03:19 |
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| timeless_mbp | Hydroxide: get some extra popcorn for me :) | 03:19 |
| Hydroxide | hehe | 03:20 |
| arjan | Hydroxide: you have no idea how much research was done on names | 03:20 |
| arjan | but there seems to be a rule | 03:20 |
| arjan | the more research is done on names, the more bland and sucky they get | 03:20 |
| timeless_mbp | to be fair. mozilla failed on phoenix and firebird | 03:20 |
| Hydroxide | arjan: "if there is no conflicting claim to the name, eliminate it from consideration"? | 03:20 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: not fair | 03:20 |
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| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: yes, mozilla did fail a couple of times - and the same mistakes are being made 5-10 years later by multiple much larger companies?! | 03:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | MeeToo | 03:21 |
| koupsa | (a concour and vote for the name of meego) | 03:21 |
| timeless_mbp | Hydroxide: bigger companies are bigger | 03:21 |
| ShadowJK | Last time I had to pick a name, I wrote a little program to generate consonant,vowel sequences, and picked a sequence from the stream that looked vaguely pronouncible | 03:21 |
| timeless_mbp | why should they worry about smaller things? :) | 03:21 |
| Hydroxide | heh | 03:22 |
| arjan | timeless_mbp: to be honest I'm surprised anything came out. many laywers from 2 big companies, AND their branding people in a room, and get agreement? | 03:22 |
| timeless_mbp | ~always look on the light side of life~ | 03:22 |
| * timeless_mbp wonders if anyone recognizes that corruption | 03:23 | |
| Hydroxide | arjan: and ALL of them missed both the trademark and .org domain name issues? ...hence the amused popcorn-munching :) | 03:23 |
| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: I do. monty python's life of brian :) | 03:23 |
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| * timeless_mbp slaps Hydroxide | 03:23 | |
| timeless_mbp | "no" | 03:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | remember "Elite" of Bell&Braben? The planets' names were machine generated by carefully selected algo not to collide with any real world names | 03:23 |
| ShadowJK | Next time you tie up the brandin people and hire terry gilliam | 03:23 |
| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Always_Look_on_the_Bright_Side_of_Life | 03:24 |
| * arjan decides it's a good time to go home | 03:24 | |
| Hydroxide | arjan: haha :) | 03:24 |
| timeless_mbp | Hydroxide: alright | 03:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | hmm, OM sysop is "roh AT central services" ;-P | 03:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | where's your 27B/6 | 03:32 |
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| koupsa | g night meego'ers | 04:59 |
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| ptl | LOL | 06:19 |
| ptl | samsung just released a new linux-based mobile OS | 06:20 |
| ptl | rofl | 06:20 |
| ptl | BADA | 06:20 |
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| uhsf | samsung really should have chosen MeeGo. this bada is a very dumb move by samsung | 06:25 |
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| Blice | uhsf: why would someone choose meego right now when A.) there is no code, and B.) there is still much community disgruntlment over little things like package managment | 06:29 |
| Blice | ? | 06:30 |
| uhsf | samsung should have either waited until the second half of the year to release a MeeGo device or choose maemo as it is now. | 06:33 |
| ptl | I am curious. What package management system is used by bada? | 06:33 |
| ptl | Blice: Samsung didn't know, so it should have used maemo or moblin | 06:33 |
| ptl | another OS on the market is not going to survive | 06:33 |
| ptl | it might have its technical merits, but as we know that's not enough | 06:34 |
| Blice | I for one welcome our diverse corporate backed mobile linux distros | 06:34 |
| uhsf | another linux based mobile os over android, webos and maemo right now is one too many. bada will obviously fail by lack of community | 06:34 |
| Blice | you don't need community to succeed | 06:35 |
| uhsf | in the linux world i think yes | 06:35 |
| Blice | this is about phones | 06:35 |
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| Blice | besides, isn't samsung a nokia competitor? | 06:37 |
| uhsf | anyway it divides the coding efforts so i don't welcome bada | 06:37 |
| Blice | why would they want to work together? | 06:37 |
| ptl | iPhone has a strong community, if it's a completely different community from that of linux users. | 06:37 |
| ptl | I can't say if community is really necessary, but it's obvious that it helps a lot. | 06:37 |
| ptl | I am reading some stuff about bada and it is obvious that Samsung doesn't get it and it's trying a top-down approach, retaining control everywhere. | 06:38 |
| ptl | I think that it's a clear sign: it will fail. | 06:38 |
| Blice | I think more mobile OSes is good, regardless. I think it's good because there is still room for A LOT of mobile GUI innovation | 06:39 |
| Blice | and competition will speed that up | 06:39 |
| uhsf | that's an opinion about competition then. i'm against competition | 06:40 |
| Blice | you prefer a monopoly? | 06:40 |
| uhsf | i prefer uniting efforts | 06:40 |
| Blice | I suppose you're one of those people that think there are too many linux distros? | 06:40 |
| ptl | actually, not... because of software patents. | 06:40 |
| ptl | every platform patents some stuff and none of them use all the good innovations. | 06:41 |
| Blice | ptl: It still forces the other competition to make something even more innovative in order to compete | 06:41 |
| Blice | its good for the market in general, patents or not | 06:41 |
| ptl | Android is still crippled by Apple's patent on zoom with two fingers on capacitive screen. | 06:41 |
| uhsf | yes, too many distros, useless gtk/qt duality, etc | 06:42 |
| ptl | Blice: some stuff just can't be invented by pressure, and it seems to me that some good ideas can't simply be overthrown. | 06:42 |
| ali1234 | if you don't want your coding efforts to go to waste then only contribute to upstream projects that you use, simple | 06:42 |
| Blice | I think the multitasking on bada is nice. | 06:43 |
| Blice | and lots of cool widgets | 06:44 |
| ptl | did you see it? | 06:44 |
| ptl | I just saw some youtube videos | 06:44 |
| ptl | I can't make an opinion | 06:44 |
| Blice | http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/14/samsung-wave-first-hands-on-bada-packed-and-super-fast/ | 06:44 |
| ptl | I saw that | 06:44 |
| Blice | Just judging from those videos | 06:45 |
| ptl | couldn't infer that information from that article | 06:45 |
| Blice | from the videos | 06:45 |
| ptl | but also it has a 1 GHz processor and more than 512 MB RAM | 06:45 |
| Blice | I'm excited about people thinking of new ways to multitask on a small screen | 06:45 |
| ptl | it's easy to have good multitasking when you have that firepower | 06:45 |
| Blice | I hope that someday we get a really intuitive way to do that so that it can actually be useful on the desktop aswell | 06:46 |
| Blice | and yeah, it has good hardware. processors will keep improving | 06:46 |
| ptl | which is bad news. | 06:48 |
| ptl | Moore's law all over again. | 06:48 |
| ptl | Apart from changing our computers every two years, we'll have to change our mobiles too. | 06:48 |
| ali1234 | don't we already have to do that? | 06:48 |
| ptl | But it seems to be speeding up... | 06:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | ptl, snapdragon isn't as fast as the 1GHz might lead you to believe. :) | 06:49 |
| Blice | ptl: just because something better exists doesn't mean you need to get a new phone | 06:49 |
| Blice | I am still on a p4 with 128mb ram desktop, I'm doing okay | 06:49 |
| ali1234 | at least buy some more ram for it | 06:50 |
| Blice | I don't really need it | 06:50 |
| Blice | firefox hogs sometimes but it's not so bad | 06:50 |
| ali1234 | you run firefox in 128mb? now you're making stuff up :) | 06:50 |
| ptl | p4 with 128 mb? My cellphone has more RAM than your computer? | 06:50 |
| ali1234 | do you run firefox 1 or something? | 06:51 |
| microlith | wow | 06:51 |
| ali1234 | because there is no way you will get decent performance out of a recent version with that little ram | 06:51 |
| microlith | I haven't had 128MB since... 2001 | 06:51 |
| Blice | ali1234: I try to run midori as much as I can but sometimes it doesn't cut it. | 06:52 |
| Blice | firefox uses around 50mb ram unless I'm doing some flash stuff | 06:52 |
| ali1234 | right now my firefox is using 178mb phys / 658mb virtual ram | 06:52 |
| Blice | wow | 06:52 |
| ali1234 | and i only have one window open | 06:52 |
| ali1234 | granted i am using 64 bit | 06:53 |
| *** exman2 is now known as exman | 06:53 | |
| ali1234 | i'm currently using 77% of my 4GB of ram | 06:54 |
| * microlith salutes the moblin website for maintaining 1.5mbyte/s | 06:54 | |
| ali1234 | 708MB of that is used by xorg, because the nvidia binary driver is leaky as a leaky thing | 06:54 |
| ali1234 | i'm also using 6.9GB of swap | 06:54 |
| Blice | my netbook has a bit more ram | 06:55 |
| ali1234 | of which 6805MB is used by xorg, same reason | 06:55 |
| Blice | my xorg uses 12mb, but its not stock | 06:55 |
| Blice | and im using vesa, lol | 06:55 |
| ptl | mine is using 500 phy / 1050 virtual | 06:55 |
| ali1234 | i am quite annoyed by this actually | 06:56 |
| Blice | 12mb for xorg, 4mb for openbox | 06:56 |
| ptl | I am not, I open so many tabs in firefox I can understand its glutony. | 06:56 |
| ali1234 | i am annoyed by xorg using 6.9GB of swap for no reason | 06:57 |
| ptl | I must have about 80 tabs by now | 06:57 |
| ptl | I keep them open because I think one day I'll read the tabs and close them | 06:57 |
| ptl | like some short-term bookmarks | 06:57 |
| Blice | ali1234: are you sure that isn't your video card's memory? | 06:57 |
| ali1234 | Blice: 6.9GB video card? | 06:57 |
| ali1234 | where do i get one of those? | 06:57 |
| Blice | oh, gb | 06:58 |
| Blice | wow | 06:58 |
| Blice | what kind of monster xorg are you using? | 06:58 |
| ali1234 | the one with ubuntu | 06:58 |
| ali1234 | the problem is the nvidia driver | 06:58 |
| Blice | oh | 06:58 |
| ali1234 | this only happens if i run 3d games | 06:58 |
| Blice | ubuntu in general isn't very good at keeping a small memory footprint though, is it? | 06:59 |
| ali1234 | it's not bad, on my old P4 it would use about 348mb normally | 06:59 |
| Blice | oic. | 06:59 |
| ali1234 | but that wasn't good enough for games | 06:59 |
| Blice | I'll get a new computer when 6gb systems go down in price more | 07:00 |
| ali1234 | there is currently a leak in the gnome volume control which causes it to use 400MB after a few days but i got that one patched | 07:00 |
| Blice | I saw one from dell for $699 but that isn't cheap enough for me yet | 07:00 |
| ali1234 | i haven't seen any other obvious leaks | 07:00 |
| ali1234 | this system cost £500 or about $800 i think | 07:02 |
| ali1234 | and it can't run moblin cos i bought AMD :) | 07:02 |
| Blice | make an amd build :D | 07:02 |
| ali1234 | i could... but why? | 07:03 |
| Blice | oh, I thought you were disapointed that you could't run moblin on it | 07:03 |
| ali1234 | it is annoying that i can't test the live images | 07:03 |
| Blice | you can get a refurbished aspire one for cheap | 07:04 |
| Blice | $150 or so | 07:04 |
| microlith | ali1234: can't bring it up in vmware? | 07:04 |
| microlith | or virtualbox? | 07:04 |
| ali1234 | microlith: virtualbox. it says something about "unknown vendor microcode" and then stops on a black screen | 07:04 |
| microlith | the live image says that? | 07:05 |
| ali1234 | yes, i assume because the phenom 2 does not have SSSE3 | 07:05 |
| microlith | mmm, nice way of blocking competitors there :> | 07:05 |
| ali1234 | Blice: i have an AAO, but i don't have a usb flash big enough for moblin, so i have to get a usb harddrive, and that has errors on it, and always craps out | 07:06 |
| ali1234 | i think i dropped it one too many times | 07:06 |
| ali1234 | anyway i got it to boot eventually :) | 07:06 |
| Blice | ali1234: are you a dev? | 07:07 |
| ali1234 | i would have much prefered to just run it in virtualbox though | 07:07 |
| ali1234 | Blice: not for maemo or moblin, no | 07:07 |
| Blice | oh okay | 07:07 |
| Blice | if you were I'd donate a bigger flash drive, lol :] | 07:07 |
| ali1234 | i do some kernel hacking, bit of PyQt coding | 07:07 |
| ali1234 | i am just to lazy to go out and buy one | 07:07 |
| ali1234 | and i wanted to see moblin NOW :) | 07:08 |
| Blice | I was a little disapointed with moblin :[ | 07:08 |
| ali1234 | so i had to mess about a bit... that's the linux way | 07:08 |
| Blice | I thought it would be easier to use and faster to go about doing things on my netbook | 07:08 |
| Blice | but as it stands its more convenient doing things with a traditional wm | 07:08 |
| ali1234 | it is, if you use your netbook to go on twitter | 07:08 |
| Blice | lol | 07:08 |
| Blice | true | 07:08 |
| ali1234 | which a lot of people do | 07:08 |
| ali1234 | presumably facebook integration will be next | 07:09 |
| ali1234 | all that stuff | 07:09 |
| ali1234 | personally i would replace the "myzone" thing with a terminal or something | 07:09 |
| Blice | so that the netbook os will be on the same level as mobile phone oses right now? | 07:09 |
| Blice | re: facebook integration | 07:09 |
| ali1234 | yeah but with the ability to run normal apps too | 07:09 |
| ali1234 | facebook is the money maker though | 07:10 |
| *** arjan_afk is now known as arjan | 07:11 | |
| arjan | Blice: can I ask a questionm | 07:11 |
| arjan | what would you like to see? | 07:11 |
| * microlith pushes moblin out to his usb key | 07:11 | |
| * arjan & very interested as moblin dev... good ideas ;) | 07:11 | |
| bfree | nice test for meego's independence from Intel as oppossed to moblin, when I can run it on an amd cpu+gpu :-p | 07:11 |
| arjan | good ideas always welcome | 07:11 |
| arjan | bfree: newer amd cpus have ssse3 too | 07:11 |
| arjan | afaik | 07:11 |
| Blice | arjan: unfortunately I can only give you generic concepts of what I want, not exact ideas :( | 07:11 |
| arjan | it's that with ssse3 you can get away from x87 floating point | 07:12 |
| arjan | Blice: try me ;-) | 07:12 |
| arjan | and non-x87 floating point is a big gain | 07:12 |
| arjan | (think of it like arm neon stuff... same kind of deal) | 07:12 |
| bfree | I was going to say that arm doesn't have sse3 | 07:13 |
| arjan | it's purely a compiler thing | 07:13 |
| Blice | arjan: traditional window managers are slightly inconvenient for netbooks because of the screen real estate etc... And I always thought that was what moblin had set out to fix. But as it stands, using moblin is more inconvenient than a normal window manager, when it comes to switching applications or whatever else. | 07:13 |
| arjan | in the meego 1.0 tree we have a much improved app/zone switcher | 07:13 |
| Blice | arjan: It might be as useful once you're adapted to it, but I'd like to see something thats intuitive enough to feel right in that its as useful as a desktop os | 07:13 |
| arjan | it was one of the biggest complaints people had | 07:13 |
| arjan | alt-tab like works again now ;) | 07:13 |
| bef0rd | a friend of mine missed the Maximize button from the window decorations | 07:14 |
| arjan | bef0rd: I do too, but I've not been able to convince the UI designers that it's important to have one | 07:14 |
| arjan | I would settle for one which invisible until you mouse over | 07:14 |
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| Blice | arjan: also I'm not much of a social networking guy. I'm a web guy yes, but not social networking. So the moblin interface feels a little wasted on me | 07:15 |
| ali1234 | how easy is it to change the moblin toolbar/ panels? | 07:15 |
| ali1234 | if you are even keeping it? | 07:15 |
| arjan | in the newest meego code it's a lot easier apparently; but I have not tried to change it myself | 07:16 |
| arjan | that part got reworked a lot | 07:16 |
| ali1234 | i like how it works but i also feel that probably 4 out of the 8 panels i will never actually use | 07:16 |
| Blice | arjan: I'm really glad you guys are switching to syslinux for boot manager. I've been using it as mine for the past year and I never understood why more people don't use it | 07:16 |
| Blice | ali1234: same | 07:16 |
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| arjan | ali1234: there's some huge improvements there... | 07:18 |
| arjan | Blice: glad you like it.. I like it to | 07:18 |
| arjan | (and it's also nice that I can ask peter anvin for features ... ;-) | 07:18 |
| Blice | arjan: social networking just isn't big on everyone... the interface would be lost on my mother etc. | 07:18 |
| arjan | ali1234: the panels are being reshuffled based on user feedback; several won't make it, and a new one is already there | 07:19 |
| ali1234 | arjan: for me a killer feature would be if i could set it to show some arbitrary webpage in "fullscreen" - ie totally fill the whole panel with the page | 07:19 |
| arjan | sort of like movie mode for webpage | 07:19 |
| ali1234 | yeah, so the webpage would be the panel | 07:20 |
| ali1234 | and it would autoload up | 07:20 |
| ali1234 | so i could have a "gmail" panel right on the toolbar :) | 07:20 |
| ali1234 | or a google maps, or anythingi care to make myself | 07:20 |
| arjan | are you here in the UK morning? nick is here in the UK time, and he's the UI designer for that part | 07:21 |
| ali1234 | it would be impossible to navigate away from the page you set too - links would open in a "normal" browser | 07:21 |
| arjan | sort of a one page mini browser kind of thing | 07:22 |
| arjan | like you would put NY times there if you're a news junky | 07:22 |
| arjan | or the CNN sports page if you're into pointyball | 07:22 |
| ali1234 | yeah | 07:22 |
| ali1234 | or more likely point it to your account page on some news aggregator website | 07:23 |
| arjan | yeah or like igoogle/google reader | 07:23 |
| ali1234 | basically it would put a webapp right on the toolbar | 07:23 |
| arjan | heck or your google calendar | 07:23 |
| * arjan likes it | 07:23 | |
| arjan | I hope nick likes it too ;-) | 07:23 |
| ali1234 | instead of having to find it in your bookmarks | 07:23 |
| ali1234 | don't get me wrong, i would prefer a native app to a webpage any day, but a lot of the time that isn't possible especially i have found with gmail | 07:25 |
| ali1234 | every time i try to use a normal email client with it, it tries to download all the messages | 07:26 |
| ali1234 | and my gmail is 2GB | 07:26 |
| ali1234 | so it just fails | 07:26 |
| arjan | hehe | 07:26 |
| arjan | I use claws for email | 07:26 |
| ali1234 | i use firefox :) | 07:26 |
| arjan | but I haven't found the time to package that for moblin/meego in a way that works | 07:26 |
| Blice | I use thunderbird. I like the new search bar and tabs, really nice. | 07:26 |
| arjan | claws rocks if you have a LOT of email | 07:26 |
| arjan | yeah I use thunderbird for work mail | 07:26 |
| arjan | it's quite nice actually | 07:26 |
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| ali1234 | with gmail manager, and lots of filters done in gmail itself, i have no problem browsing multiple mailing lists | 07:27 |
| arjan | but if you have a TON of mail on imap it might not be the best one | 07:27 |
| arjan | I use claws for that... with lots of like so far | 07:27 |
| arjan | the only drawback of claws is that it's single threaded | 07:27 |
| arjan | so no background email pulling | 07:27 |
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| arjan | (I don't mind, because if I want my mail I want it now, not in the background anyway) | 07:27 |
| ali1234 | seems claws has a maemo port, i should try it :) | 07:28 |
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| Blice | arjan: any word yet on when code will be released? is there a date yet? | 07:28 |
| ali1234 | osso-mail was one of the ones that failed, for me | 07:28 |
| Blice | for meego | 07:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | mail clients have a list of mail IDs already downloaded. You could probably generate such list without actually downloading all the mails | 07:28 |
| ali1234 | i could do but sometimes even i get tired of hacking stuff to work properly :) | 07:29 |
| Blice | now that I'm a bit better with C and have had many adventures in "how can I boot faster" land I'm anxious to contribute anything I can | 07:29 |
| arjan | Blice: not a 100% commit, but it looks like 2 to 3 weeks | 07:29 |
| arjan | we want the infrastructure to actually WORK | 07:29 |
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| arjan | it would suck if we released bits but not a way where people can contrinute | 07:30 |
| arjan | contribute | 07:30 |
| Blice | yeah I understand | 07:30 |
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| arjan | there's a lot of complaints already about "oh but there's no bla bla" yet | 07:31 |
| arjan | doing a bunch of half releases sucks, so we are trying to get enough into shape | 07:31 |
| arjan | and that just takes a bit of time | 07:31 |
| ali1234 | does moblin have a "download everything and compile it and produce a iso" system like android has? if not, will meego have one? | 07:31 |
| arjan | (and we're trying to get all the artwork changed) | 07:31 |
| arjan | not in the android way | 07:32 |
| arjan | we have packages, android doesn't | 07:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | arjan, for Moblin or for the site? | 07:32 |
| arjan | we do have a system to build packages | 07:32 |
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| arjan | GeneralAntilles: the bits; you'd be surprised how often "moblin" was in the graphics | 07:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 07:32 |
| arjan | and we have a system to go from packages to an iso | 07:32 |
| arjan | so.. it's more of a two step thing | 07:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nokia's the exact opposite | 07:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think Maemo appears exactly once in any of the UI. | 07:33 |
| arjan | I'm not sure we'll get rid of the all of them; we're trying | 07:33 |
| arjan | but I'd not be surprised one slips through somewhere ;) | 07:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Can exactly do a global search on graphics. ;) | 07:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/Can/Can't/ | 07:34 |
| * GeneralAntilles pokes Stskeeps. | 07:35 | |
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| arjan | quite. | 07:36 |
| arjan | ali1234: our iso generate tool is quite nifty | 07:36 |
| bfree | arm packages with the first release? what will it run on :-p hehe sorry | 07:36 |
| arjan | it generates iso files that are also bootable usb for example | 07:36 |
| arjan | bfree: not entirely sure yet | 07:36 |
| ali1234 | yeah that is a nice feature (usb storage boot) | 07:37 |
| bfree | arjan: isohybrid? if so yep it's nifty | 07:37 |
| arjan | the infrastructure is getting ready for arm, not sure how much packages we have | 07:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm yeah. USB hostmode needed for boot from USB | 07:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | so for N810 it's nice | 07:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah wait. Generic hostmode for booting not supported on N810 either | 07:39 |
| arjan | the iso making tool is extensible to various formats | 07:39 |
| arjan | so if there is some way.... | 07:39 |
| bfree | well with isohybrid it would probably work on sd or any "disc" anyway | 07:40 |
| arjan | but if the platform just is not very nice about booting, yeah you'd be stuck | 07:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah. SD probably a way to go | 07:40 |
| arjan | to be honest I don't know what the prefered bootloader for arm is | 07:41 |
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| ali1234 | there isn't one, all devices use a different one | 07:41 |
| bfree | worst case "should" be kexec | 07:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | no such thing like "preferred" bootloader | 07:41 |
| bfree | Nokia plan on locking down the bootloader on their next device anyway :-/ | 07:42 |
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| ali1234 | Nokia uses NOLO, HTC uses IPL/SPL | 07:42 |
| ptl | really? | 07:42 |
| * arjan has fond memories of redboot | 07:42 | |
| DocScrutinizer | a number of devices use uBoot | 07:42 |
| ptl | where did you get these news, bfree? | 07:42 |
| arjan | as in "the guys 3 cubes over swear while coding it" | 07:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | bfree, erm, it's already locked down. | 07:42 |
| bfree | GeneralAntilles: yeah, I wasn't too sure about that | 07:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | bfree, you can still replace it. | 07:43 |
| ali1234 | HTC's bootloader is locked down too, it didn't stop it from getting cracked | 07:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | bfree, just nobody's actually built a replacement. | 07:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | and you have to deal with the BB5 crap. | 07:43 |
| arjan | writing bootloaders is sucky | 07:43 |
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| GeneralAntilles | bfree, the only change for Maemo 6 is that the bootloader will check for signed kernel for the purposes of DRM and security stuff. | 07:44 |
| bfree | GeneralAntilles: that's not locked down then in my book, just not open. for maemo6 (from fosdem) the bootloader will be the gatekeeper to the DRM and irreplacable | 07:44 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I hope the GPLv2 thing comes back and kicks Nokia's ass. | 07:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | I can't believe they're kowtowing to operators like this. | 07:45 |
| ptl | ok | 07:45 |
| ptl | so if the bootloader will be the gatekeeper to the DRM | 07:45 |
| ptl | as we'll have option to "no DRM" | 07:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yup | 07:46 |
| bfree | anyway, for me worst case there is having to do something like petitboot as bootloader (see ps3 linux stuff) to kexec the target from a kernel with built-in initrd (that has petitboot or whatever "bootloader" as a 2nd phase loader) | 07:46 |
| ptl | it will also be the gatekeeper of the "no DRM" option, isn't it? | 07:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah | 07:46 |
| ali1234 | ptl: yes, very much so | 07:46 |
| ptl | that means, what decides if the device is locked or not will be a locked program by itself | 07:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yes | 07:46 |
| ptl | doesn't that spoil having an option in the first place? | 07:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: NOOOO, signed kernels. :-((( | 07:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which is why if you buy it subsidized the operator can do all sorts of evil shit. | 07:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, is this news? | 07:47 |
| bfree | yep, so presumably a carrier with a subsidised phone could lock it | 07:47 |
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| GeneralAntilles | bfree, my bet is that Nokia's advertising that as a perk to operators. :\ | 07:47 |
| * GeneralAntilles wishes the dinosaurs would just die off already. | 07:47 | |
| ali1234 | bfree: yes, that was already stated | 07:47 |
| bfree | GeneralAntilles: of course they are | 07:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: this means the device is *totally* locked | 07:47 |
| arjan | just buy enough of the open phones to send the message ;) | 07:48 |
| ali1234 | btw all phones have that feature, it's not like it is a "perk" - if a phone can't do that, operators will be asking why the hell it can't? | 07:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, have you not been following any of the security stuff? | 07:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | ali1234, N900 doesn't have that feature. | 07:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah | 07:49 |
| bfree | arjan: open phones, you mean the openmoko? I didn't like the form factor/hardware much :-p | 07:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, well, signed kernels with Harmattan. | 07:49 |
| ali1234 | GeneralAntilles: and that is why you can't buy it subsidized | 07:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, means carriers can lock you to one kernel. | 07:49 |
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| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, Nokia will use it to disable DRM on unsigned kernels. | 07:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | each time it was mentioned a strange nausea forced me away from the PC | 07:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | ali1234, not, in fact, the case. | 07:49 |
| ali1234 | GeneralAntilles: link please | 07:49 |
| bfree | You can buy it "subsidised", just not "defective by design" yet | 07:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | ali1234, Vodafone sells it subsidized. | 07:49 |
| ali1234 | in what country? | 07:50 |
| bfree | Ireland, vodafone and o2 both afaik | 07:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | UK | 07:50 |
| arjan | wish the n900 was subsidized in the US | 07:50 |
| ali1234 | wow it is true | 07:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | arjan, no you don't. | 07:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | arjan, did you see what AT&T did to the E71? | 07:51 |
| ali1234 | http://shop.vodafone.co.uk/shop/mobile-phone/nokia-n900, £40/month contract | 07:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or what's happened to basically every Android phone on the market. . . . | 07:51 |
| arjan | my n900 is open, and before that I had an E61i unlocked | 07:51 |
| arjan | so no I don't know | 07:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | arjan, subsidization just lets your operator control your device. | 07:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: how do you use signatures of kernel to disable a single kernel feature via bootloader?? I don't see that | 07:51 |
| arjan | DocScrutinizer: it's easy ;( | 07:52 |
| arjan | DocScrutinizer: you have a key in hardware for the DRM crypto | 07:52 |
| * slonopotamus misses the point of locked phones. They're sold with a contract, that binds you to this operator (at least for some time). Why lock hw itself? | 07:52 | |
| mikeleib | GeneralAntilles: it's not tit-for tat in the US. They might control your device anyway. | 07:52 |
| arjan | and the bootloader does not give access to that key unless the kernel matches a signature | 07:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_security | 07:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | mikeleib, AT&T does not control my device. | 07:52 |
| arjan | this is also how blueray works on windows 7 | 07:52 |
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| GeneralAntilles | mikeleib, CDMA doesn't count. | 07:52 |
| ali1234 | slonopotamus: because they have stuff in the firmware which forwards users to their "walled garden" mobile internet sites rather than the real internet | 07:52 |
| bfree | slonopotamus: e.g. to make text messaging more attractive then cheaper data | 07:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | arjan: no, bootloader either starts the unsigned kernel, or it does not | 07:52 |
| ali1234 | if it wasn't locked people would just reflash with the vanilla firmware | 07:53 |
| slonopotamus | ali1234, so? | 07:53 |
| RST38h | moo all | 07:54 |
| ali1234 | slonopotamus: so then they lose out on revenue | 07:54 |
| slonopotamus | bfree, you sign contract anyway (and pay it). Who cares if you use it or not? | 07:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | moo magoo | 07:54 |
| arjan | DocScrutinizer: it can start an unsigned kernel, but tell the vault (TPM whatever) that has the magic key to not give it out | 07:54 |
| arjan | that is how it works on pcs | 07:54 |
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| bfree | slonopotamus: who says I signed a contract? | 07:54 |
| slonopotamus | ali1234, they already got revenue in form of your monthly paymments. | 07:54 |
| * mikeleib reads backlog | 07:54 | |
| mikeleib | writing bootstrappers is suckier than writing bootloaders | 07:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | arjan: uhuh, and what about kexec to unsigned kernel then? | 07:55 |
| slonopotamus | bfree, err... i thought that's the way locked phones work. you buy it bundled with a contract. | 07:55 |
| ali1234 | slonopotamus: so what? i'm just telling you why they do it, i'm not saying it is right | 07:55 |
| arjan | DocScrutinizer: you can bet that the signed kernels have kexec disabled | 07:55 |
| slonopotamus | ali1234, okay :) | 07:55 |
| ali1234 | slonopotamus: with their customized firmware they drive the users through there after market revenue system | 07:55 |
| arjan | otherwise you had a moron building your kernel ;-) | 07:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | aha. So what I told. The *whole* device is locked | 07:56 |
| mikeleib | module loading as well | 07:56 |
| arjan | signed modules is easy; when I was at RH we used that | 07:56 |
| arjan | (more to show which modules were not from us, so that we knew about it in bug reports) | 07:57 |
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| arjan | but saying "don't load unsigned modules" would be a trivial change from that | 07:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | what a royal fuckup | 07:57 |
| bfree | slonopotamus: prepay phones can be subsidised only and locked to a network | 07:57 |
| ali1234 | and for every phone there is an unlocking tool | 07:57 |
| bfree | I would have bought a Pre here on prepay except o2 state "they won't unlock it" | 07:58 |
| jrayhawk | You can probably get a small-time phone shop to unlock it for you for $10-20. | 07:58 |
| bfree | but that may only be a network lock to confuse issues, not OS | 07:58 |
| ali1234 | yes, there are multiple different types of lock | 07:58 |
| bfree | well I don't buy a Linux phone to unlock it | 07:59 |
| jrayhawk | I mean, the single-carrier requirement will be gone. | 07:59 |
| bfree | that's just defeating the purpose in my book (hi Tivo) | 07:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | bfree: ACK! | 08:00 |
| markey | morning | 08:00 |
| ali1234 | yes i quite agree, you should not buy locked stuff even if you know oyu can unlock it | 08:00 |
| jrayhawk | Not even at a cost-savings ratio of ten? | 08:01 |
| ali1234 | not if you have principles :) | 08:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't NEED fsckng DRM, I don't WANT it, and for sure I won't bother to break it. I'll simply set Nokia on my ignore list the day they sell that crap | 08:02 |
| jrayhawk | What principle would that be? | 08:02 |
| jrayhawk | If I try to give you a used PC that has a password on it, does your principle keep you from accepting it? | 08:03 |
| microlith | jrayhawk: what use to me is a piece of hardware that's been deliberately crippled? | 08:03 |
| ali1234 | jrayhawk: no, because the PC has a built in and documented method of removing it | 08:03 |
| jrayhawk | So does the phone. | 08:03 |
| ali1234 | jrayhawk: the maemo 6 / meego phone, yes. other phones, no | 08:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | bullshit | 08:04 |
| microlith | jrayhawk: oh, you're referring to a device where it can actually be unlocked? | 08:04 |
| microlith | without begging someone | 08:04 |
| jrayhawk | Every GSM phone does, some CDMA phones do. | 08:04 |
| ali1234 | jrayhawk: those phones can only be unlocked by the carrier for an extra cost, or by undocumented hacks | 08:05 |
| ali1234 | jrayhawk: typically the official way needs a unique code, and the hack requires some kind of exploit | 08:05 |
| suihkulokki | fwiw I was quite unsuccessful at unlocking a laptop with bios/hd encryption | 08:05 |
| ali1234 | in the PC example, i just remove the BIOS battery (like stated in the manual) and the password is gone | 08:05 |
| suihkulokki | so I had to ask for the previous owner to unlock it | 08:05 |
| jrayhawk | The unique code is not phone-unique and they're widely shared without punishment from the carriers. | 08:05 |
| arjan | hd passwords are not encryption fwiw | 08:05 |
| arjan | (and there are master passwords... the drive vendor has those) | 08:06 |
| bfree | ali1234: the maemo6 phone will depend on where you get it who will have permission to do what with it. The n900 as best I know has no such system available | 08:06 |
| RST38h | hd encryption is gonna cause a problem | 08:06 |
| suihkulokki | ali1234: that laptop had soldered battery | 08:06 |
| RST38h | the bios password is not | 08:06 |
| ali1234 | i would never in a million years buy a PC and not do a full wipe of the drive followed by fresh install | 08:06 |
| suihkulokki | It had a bios password to prevent removing the HD encryption | 08:06 |
| suihkulokki | so not even swapping the HD worked | 08:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, I'm just pulling for Nokia getting a GPLv3 ass kicking. | 08:07 |
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| ali1234 | suihkulokki: in that case i would not buy it, it is clearly a lemon of some kind :) | 08:07 |
| microlith | GeneralAntilles: and drive more people away from using GPL licensed software? | 08:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: you talked to Harald Welte? | 08:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, no. | 08:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | microlith, maybe all of the dinosaurs will die of heart attacks then we can move on anyway. | 08:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | sorry, that nausea strikes again | 08:09 |
| microlith | GeneralAntilles: would be nice, sadly I don't think it will happen soon | 08:09 |
| bfree | the moblin faq didn't like gpl v3 either | 08:09 |
| RST38h | what is the point of moving to gplv3? newer upstream packages? | 08:10 |
| jrayhawk | If you do attempt enforcement, please use Harald Welte rather than the FSF. | 08:10 |
| Guest85276 | hi,there | 08:11 |
| microlith | RST38h: well, for some people it's the political point made in doing so | 08:11 |
| arjan | bfree: I don't think moblin ever said anything about gplv3 | 08:11 |
| arjan | like or dislike | 08:11 |
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| RST38h | microlith: But aside from political preferences of random people | 08:12 |
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| microlith | RST38h: not much really, it was mostly to close what the FSF saw as loopholes | 08:13 |
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| bfree | arjan: I can't find anything about licenses now on moblin ... sorry if I've misremembered that. I went reading too much stuff a few days ago and maybe some wires crossed | 08:16 |
| Guest85276 | :/LIST | 08:16 |
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| Guest85276 | setenv IRCNICK eric.leopard | 08:19 |
| * Guest85276 slaps deekey around a bit with a large trout | 08:19 | |
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| Guest85276 | setenv IRCNICK eric.leopard | 08:30 |
| ml-mobile | it's not working very well... | 08:30 |
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| Pac | test | 08:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer | pest | 08:36 |
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| tekojo | Morning MeeGo! | 08:40 |
| Stskeeps | morning tekojo | 08:41 |
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| ericleopard | In my time, it shoule be "afternoon" | 08:44 |
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| Stskeeps | think it would be sane to adapt UGT ;) | 08:46 |
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| leinir | Stskeeps: What, internet time? ;) | 08:52 |
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| th0br0 | Good morning ... | 09:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ~ugt | 09:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: how about /invite infobot ? | 09:21 |
| Stskeeps | tried | 09:21 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps | 09:21 | |
| DocScrutinizer | rejected? | 09:21 |
| Stskeeps | not responding to my invites | 09:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | shit, tim riker was around last night. You'd need to contact him and ask him to allow infobot to join | 09:22 |
| johnx | you're being too forward, try some flowers or chocolates | 09:22 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps | 09:22 | |
| Stskeeps | johnx: the wedding ring on my finger probably doesn't help | 09:23 |
| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: yeah, i woke up two hours too late | 09:23 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, you'd be amazed at that one actually, but maybe infobot's just not that kind of bot | 09:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: you might try to catch Tim on #BZFlag | 09:25 |
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| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: k | 09:25 |
| johnx | bzflag! wow, been a while since I played that | 09:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | or on #infobot | 09:26 |
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| Stskeeps | morn danielwilms | 09:27 |
| danielwilms | Stskeeps: morning! | 09:27 |
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| * mikeleib tires | 09:31 | |
| tripzero | sleep mikeleib | 09:31 |
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| mikeleib | tripzero: sleep | 09:33 |
| tripzero | okay, i will | 09:34 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 09:34 |
| ericleopard | morning! | 09:36 |
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| dl9pf | moin | 09:42 |
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| timeless_mbp | ok, for people to play, i've put up http://ec2-72-44-51-255.compute-1.amazonaws.com/ - thanks to jebba for hosting | 09:45 |
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| timeless_mbp | if anyone familiar w/ rpm/rpmbuild is around, and can talk to me for a bit, that'd be appreciated | 09:45 |
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| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: I'm about to head off to work | 09:52 |
| slaine_ | but you could email me your questions and I'll try and answer them or wait for just over an hour and I'll be back in here | 09:53 |
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| * timeless_mbp wonders if there's an easy way to get a list of [user] 'installed' packages | 09:57 | |
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| * DocScrutinizer waves | 10:01 | |
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| Jaffa | timeless_mbp: you mean ones in Section: user/? | 10:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | Jaffa: sorry, realm:moblin(meego-base) | 10:12 |
| timeless_mbp | i mean things that i installed _after_ the system installed packages | 10:12 |
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| timeless_mbp | roughly things that 'apt' would have remembered me 'asking' for | 10:12 |
| timeless_mbp | but in this case, i'm using 'yum' | 10:12 |
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| * timeless_mbp grumbles | 10:16 | |
| * timeless_mbp kicks gcompris | 10:16 | |
| timeless_mbp | 99% of the packages i'm playing with use 'BuildRequires:' | 10:16 |
| timeless_mbp | gcompris just to be different uses 'Buildrequires:' | 10:16 |
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| * timeless_mbp also kicks aspell, autoconf213, automake, cronie, dbus-c++, expect, gettext, libbonoboui, and libgpod | 10:43 | |
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| bva | townxelliot: Are you around? | 11:15 |
| bva | or maybe X-Fade ? | 11:17 |
| townxelliot | bva: hello | 11:17 |
| bva | I have noticed something on the website of Meego | 11:18 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: how you getting on ? | 11:18 |
| bva | maybe you can have a look | 11:18 |
| townxelliot | bva: what's that? | 11:18 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: well, i got most of the packages to transform into sources | 11:18 |
| bva | Meego.com -> Community | 11:18 |
| timeless_mbp | i want to smack those couple of packages which don't write BuildRequires: with a capital R (see irc log) | 11:19 |
| slaine_ | rpmdev-setuptree created your macro etc. I assume ? | 11:19 |
| bva | if you press like | A | | 11:19 |
| slaine_ | I'm only a different machine at the moment | 11:19 |
| bva | you get names starting with W | 11:19 |
| bva | and M | 11:19 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: channel topic has a link to a permanent log | 11:19 |
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| slaine_ | oh, never noticed | 11:20 |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine_: so, i have a couple of packages which failed to patch properly, one needed dos2unix, one needed cabextract | 11:21 |
| timeless_mbp | but it's mostly done | 11:21 |
| timeless_mbp | now i'm trying to figure out why my indexer doesn't like me | 11:21 |
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| townxelliot | bva: not sure what you mean | 11:22 |
| bva | townxelliot: your on the members pag? | 11:22 |
| bva | page* | 11:23 |
| townxelliot | bva: yes, it's filtering by username, but showing the display name | 11:25 |
| townxelliot | bva: granted, not particularly intuitive | 11:25 |
| bva | aaah yeah ok | 11:26 |
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| bva | ppl will be confused if they dont know that | 11:26 |
| bva | I was :D | 11:26 |
| pasi | :-) | 11:28 |
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| pasi | is there already emulator and SDK for MeeGo? | 11:36 |
| pillar_ | pasi: nope | 11:37 |
| pillar_ | they promised an sdk for q2 | 11:37 |
| pasi | ok, thanks. So only way to look MeeGo now is to get the kickstart and image from repository and install it /test livecd? | 11:39 |
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| pasi | Yes, seems to be Moblin images but its pretty much same as MeeGo. | 11:42 |
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| rzr | is the pkgmanager war over ? | 11:43 |
| rzr | +hi | 11:43 |
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| pasi | I think that it's still better to keep helmet. | 11:45 |
| slaine_ | pasi: MeeGo 1.0 will be Moblin 2.2 + some Nokia Qt apps, I believe. So currently, thats the best way to get what's available | 11:46 |
| slaine_ | Though as I understand it, the Nokia apps aren't submitted yet | 11:46 |
| slaine_ | or available in the repo at least | 11:46 |
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| villemv | lwn has a (subscriber only) meego article as well | 11:47 |
| pasi | slaine: Ok, thanks. so lets burn some disks | 11:48 |
| * villemv has no access though | 11:48 | |
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| villemv | slaine_: what nokia qt apps? any idea? | 11:48 |
| villemv | I'd imagine meego 1.0 to be moblin 2.2, period ;-) | 11:49 |
| slaine_ | pasi: ewww, disks. | 11:49 |
| pasi | slaine_: ok, just one. | 11:49 |
| slaine_ | villemv: we don't know yet, but the inclusion of some Qt apps has been mentioned | 11:49 |
| slaine_ | What and how many I guess depends on the dev teams involved. | 11:50 |
| villemv | mentioned where? one those colossal mailing list threads? | 11:50 |
| timeless_mbp | villemv: those don't exist | 11:50 |
| timeless_mbp | press releases | 11:50 |
| slaine_ | either here or #moblin | 11:50 |
| slaine_ | that's my understanding anyways. | 11:51 |
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| MelisU | I thought Meego 1.0 = Maemo 6 .. this is all very confusing. I guess we have to wait for Meego 2.0 | 11:58 |
| Stskeeps | nah, m6 is a 'meego instance', which i'm sure is going to come back to haunt nokia claiming | 11:58 |
| slaine_ | MelisU: The full integration won't happen 'til then for sure. At this point, maemo6 and moblin 2.2 are too far along to kill them off | 11:59 |
| slaine_ | So both will have some level of cross fertilizing with the platform shift happening for maemo6+1 | 11:59 |
| slaine_ | at least, that's my best guess | 11:59 |
| MelisU | well, at the moment it is not like either Moblin or Maemo has any traction and so the uproar if they get most scrapped will be limited (outside of IRC and mailling list of course) | 11:59 |
| slaine_ | I think Intel have contractual obligations to ship Moblin 2.2 to some OEM's | 12:00 |
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| bva | maybe they both have to communicate a bit more (be clearer) to the outside world | 12:01 |
| bva | so Meego knows where they are standing | 12:02 |
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| Naranek | right now I have the feeling that nobody knows what the merge will actually mean. That might be wrong, but that's where the better communication comes into play :) | 12:02 |
| bva | exactly what i wanted to say | 12:03 |
| rzr | are there some community surveys about this project ? to see where it can go ? | 12:04 |
| Naranek | or could it be that the details are actually kept secret by Nokia and Intel until the first version is released? | 12:04 |
| Stskeeps | well, the most common would be "to hell" if judging by the deb to rpm move, rzr ;) | 12:04 |
| Stskeeps | and the complaints people have ;) | 12:05 |
| rzr | this makes me worry yeah | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | i don't worry and neither should you | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:05 |
| bva | ppl have to get over the rpm deb issue and just accept a decicion being made | 12:05 |
| rzr | accepting is not acceptable | 12:06 |
| Stskeeps | rzr: somewhere someone had to put a line in the sand, if we are to have a production quality product | 12:07 |
| rzr | i can understand this | 12:07 |
| villemv | if you want to have surveys, that's all you are going to end up with | 12:07 |
| villemv | canonical is semi-suggesful because it's not a democracy | 12:07 |
| * w00t_ wanders in | 12:07 | |
| w00t_ | morning, meego | 12:08 |
| villemv | succesful | 12:08 |
| rzr | anyway this project is interessing to understand how can free projects can merge | 12:08 |
| villemv | neither maemo core or moblin are community projects | 12:08 |
| rzr | mer is | 12:08 |
| villemv | even if the software within is | 12:08 |
| rzr | well when we shoot Stskeeps | 12:08 |
| rzr | :) | 12:09 |
| rzr | anyway maemo and cannonical are relying on a community project , probally moblin does this too | 12:10 |
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| Stskeeps | rzr: maemo doesn't rely on a community project, but the tables are changed a bit now :P | 12:10 |
| rzr | that's a compromise i can deal | 12:10 |
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| lbt_ | moin | 12:10 |
| rzr | Stskeeps: what about debian ? | 12:10 |
| * lbt_ stabs lbt | 12:10 | |
| Stskeeps | rzr: not relying on it | 12:11 |
| MelisU | I really hope this will go somewhere, but maybe it is already too late. Google is cloud-supercharing Android to the point where it will become the Linux of choice | 12:11 |
| Stskeeps | MelisU: if we can make meego -very easy- to port, we have a very compelling niche | 12:11 |
| rzr | Stskeeps: so they revrote all debian packages ? ... humm | 12:11 |
| Stskeeps | rzr: no, as in, forked once, kept on working on it | 12:12 |
| MelisU | every Android device can get turn-by-turn, Google Goggles AND you can even get ad money from Google. VERY hard to beat | 12:12 |
| lbt_ | MelisU: and that has what? to do with linux? | 12:12 |
| Stskeeps | MelisU: err.. no | 12:13 |
| rzr | Stskeeps: well we say the same thing using opposite words | 12:13 |
| Stskeeps | MelisU: port android to your device, you don't get google apps | 12:13 |
| MelisU | Stskeeps: I was talking about device manufactures . | 12:13 |
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| MelisU | I just hope Qt 4.7 with QML etc. will tip the scale .. it is soo much better than Android | 12:15 |
| bva | Is Android itself completely open source? | 12:15 |
| rzr | MelisU: anyway as an android developer i dont think i'll buy any android phone | 12:15 |
| rzr | MelisU: so there is a market for geeks like us | 12:15 |
| MelisU | rzr: I want my phone to be a real computer too, but most people don't really care. Google perks and the big name does it for them | 12:16 |
| VRe | when 4.7 should be out? | 12:16 |
| MelisU | Qt releases every 9 month I think | 12:16 |
| MelisU | so 10.10 | 12:16 |
| rzr | MelisU: same for fast food , they didnt own all restorants | 12:16 |
| leinir | It's going into feature freeze today iirc :) | 12:17 |
| w00t_ | some days ago, thiago was saying earlier that 4.7 is aimed at the first half of this year, 4.8 hopefully by the end of the year, though of course this was a very informal discussion | 12:17 |
| w00t_ | (wrt Qt) | 12:18 |
| MelisU | rzr: I am not arguing about Meegos merits .. it has a lot. But I talkiing about getting enough traction to attract lots of app devs and many device manus | 12:18 |
| rzr | MelisU: you'll start with existing apps that can not be ported to android or iphone | 12:19 |
| MelisU | w00t_: Cool, I thought Qt was on 9 month cycle .. but 4.8 this year would be awesome. What does 4.8 bring? | 12:19 |
| w00t_ | MelisU: too early to tell, really | 12:19 |
| rzr | MelisU: but i see what you mean, i wish i can get paid to work on thoses gnu plateforms | 12:20 |
| leinir | Official support for Android and iPhone? ;) | 12:20 |
| w00t_ | I do know that QML was merged to master recently, so that will be in 4.7 | 12:20 |
| leinir | (mmm, wishful thinking ;) ) | 12:20 |
| w00t_ | leinir: don't laugh, someone apparantly got native client working on android | 12:20 |
| w00t_ | :P | 12:20 |
| leinir | Oh i know that :) Note the "official" bit up there ;) | 12:20 |
| w00t_ | hehe | 12:20 |
| rzr | w00t_: native client on what ? | 12:20 |
| w00t_ | gut feeling is that I think it will happen, I don't know when though | 12:21 |
| w00t_ | rzr: "on android" | 12:21 |
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| w00t_ | read the rest of the line :) | 12:21 |
| leinir | rzr: just a second... | 12:21 |
| rzr | w00t_: of what ? | 12:21 |
| rzr | qt ? | 12:21 |
| w00t_ | Qt, leinir is digging up the link I guess | 12:21 |
| rzr | yes they did that | 12:21 |
| rzr | on iphone too | 12:21 |
| rzr | but integration will probally suck | 12:22 |
| rzr | well i hope not | 12:22 |
| rzr | who knows | 12:22 |
| w00t_ | early days | 12:22 |
| w00t_ | give it some time | 12:22 |
| rzr | leinir: that's what you are searching : http://www.newlc.com/en/qt-port-android-platform-watch-android-lighthouse-video | 12:22 |
| leinir | http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4167 | 12:23 |
| leinir | that :) | 12:23 |
| rzr | ok same project | 12:25 |
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| MelisU | if Qt were to run on all platforms (iPhone, Android etc.) it would help. But I guess Windows Phone 7 Series will not allow native code .. just .NET | 12:26 |
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| pasi | and .net is slow..clr eats memory. | 12:26 |
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| Shrik3 | bah | 12:26 |
| leinir | MelisU: did they break backwards compatibility? (not that i'd blame them, just wondering) | 12:27 |
| Shrik3 | everything but pure asm "eats memory" | 12:27 |
| pasi | :-D | 12:27 |
| MelisU | pasi: you can see that in some of the WP7S videos .. it lags | 12:27 |
| bva | Shrik3: start writing asm :p you'll b efinished in 50years :p | 12:28 |
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| Shrik3 | and thus the point of .NET on wmo7 comes up =) | 12:28 |
| Shrik3 | it's really easy to do software on .NET compared to say … symbian | 12:28 |
| MelisU | leinir: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/18/windows-phone-7-development-policies-and-guidelines-leaked/ | 12:29 |
| pasi | heh, thats so true. Symbian has been for me hardest | 12:29 |
| Shrik3 | and by easy I mean visual basic drag&drop easy | 12:29 |
| Shrik3 | it's pretty close to Qt in portability from mobile to desktop | 12:30 |
| Shrik3 | (and web) | 12:30 |
| pasi | .net is productive..very productive. All goods doesn't comes in one package | 12:30 |
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| MelisU | yeah, MS has good tools. Qtcreator needs a good emulator that supports cross compilation etc. .. Meego needs a lot of stuff | 12:30 |
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| pasi | hmm, btw. I don't think that installing QT to Win7 phones will be impossible. Well of course it depends about MS marketing..but I forget MS phones now and concentrate to MeeGo | 12:34 |
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| markey | re | 12:35 |
| markey | what's new? :) | 12:35 |
| markey | ok, stupid question, admittedly | 12:36 |
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| pasi | anyone already installed meego from repo? Im using default kickstart from http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/ia32/os/image-config/ . Seems to taking a lot of files. There is virtual machine ks also. Anyone using that? | 12:42 |
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| timeless_mbp | pasi: i'm still indexing moblin, and i have a moblin2.1 vm | 12:46 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: I didn't get very far investigating that vm issue last night | 12:47 |
| slaine_ | uxlaunch is the problem alright, I just didn't get to debug it | 12:48 |
| slaine_ | I'll have a go later | 12:48 |
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| * timeless_mbp frowns | 12:48 | |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: strange | 12:48 |
| * timeless_mbp seems to have confused directory names | 12:49 | |
| slaine_ | ? | 12:49 |
| slaine_ | your indexer ? | 12:49 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah | 12:50 |
| timeless_mbp | i seem to have both moblin.org and meego.com | 12:50 |
| timeless_mbp | oh | 12:50 |
| * timeless_mbp did something stupid | 12:50 | |
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| timeless_mbp | ok, grabbing repo.moblin :) | 12:56 |
| timeless_mbp | err repo.meego | 12:56 |
| timeless_mbp | whatever :) | 12:56 |
| bva | timeless get some sleep :) seems you ened it | 12:57 |
| timeless_mbp | bva: i sleep on weekends | 12:57 |
| timeless_mbp | my weekend starts in ~3 hrs | 12:57 |
| ProLink | yea sleep is a waste of time but we have to do it.. wrr. | 12:58 |
| Amby | I've put up a Glossary/abbreviation page in the wiki, with some limited initial entries, if anyone feels the need to contribute :) http://wiki.meego.com/Glossary | 12:58 |
| w00t_ | sleep is overrated | 12:58 |
| timeless_mbp | Amby: can you use some other syntax? | 12:58 |
| timeless_mbp | a hyphen or something to distinguish between a name and the meaning | 12:59 |
| Amby | timeless_mbp: meaning? | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | or a newline or ... | 12:59 |
| w00t_ | IIRC - If I Recall Correctly | 12:59 |
| w00t_ | as opposed to | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | relying on <b> or <strong> isn't very nice | 12:59 |
| w00t_ | IIRC If I Recall Correctly | 12:59 |
| Amby | sure, what would be better? | 12:59 |
| timeless_mbp | as w00t_ wrote will suffice | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | you don't need to remove the strong | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | although i'd suggest <em> instead | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | -- i defer to w00t_ on presentation | 13:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | you should also find the maemo wiki page that lists abbreviations | 13:00 |
| timeless_mbp | you should list it under 'useful links' | 13:01 |
| Amby | somehow my newline did not go through and I'm at work. But I'll do that tonight - or you can simply modify, I have no emotianal attachment to my formatting ;) | 13:01 |
| timeless_mbp | i have no time to do it, i need sleep | 13:01 |
| timeless_mbp | if i do everything, how will anyone else learn? :) | 13:01 |
| pasi | damn, default.ks didn't work. | 13:01 |
| Amby | timeless_mbp: I was searching for that in maemo wiki - did not find in 5 mins | 13:01 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: so, about ~/.rpmmacros | 13:02 |
| timeless_mbp | it's cute, but what if i want two distinct .rpmmacros files? | 13:02 |
| timeless_mbp | (one for moblin, one for meego) | 13:02 |
| Amby | Anyway, first draft is under http://wiki.meego.com/Glossary and I'll come back in 7 hours to complete a proper first version, if nobody is jumping on it :) | 13:02 |
| timeless_mbp | have a good weekend | 13:03 |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine_: ok, wtf | 13:04 |
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| timeless_mbp | [timeless@domU-12-31-39-0A-8C-36 SRPMS]$ curl -o - http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/ConsoleKit-0.4.1-5.3.src.rpm 2>/dev/null|grep moved | 13:05 |
| timeless_mbp | <p>The document has moved <a href="http://repo.moblin.org/trunk/repo/source/ConsoleKit-0.4.1-5.3.src.rpm">here</a>.</p> | 13:05 |
| timeless_mbp | so basically repo.meego.com/trunk/repo is just a joke | 13:05 |
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| X-Fade | timeless_mbp: moblin drop will be in 2 to 3 weeks afaik. | 13:06 |
| timeless_mbp | X-Fade: so why did they bother creating a directory which just redirects to another server? | 13:07 |
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| timeless_mbp | couldn't they be nice and um.... not do that? | 13:07 |
| X-Fade | timeless_mbp: To have something there? :) | 13:07 |
| X-Fade | No idea. | 13:07 |
| timeless_mbp | i'd rather the directory itself redirected | 13:07 |
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| w00t_ | random note, I hate hate hate redirects like that | 13:16 |
| w00t_ | google.com does it too and it annoys me | 13:16 |
| w00t_ | </minirant> | 13:17 |
| * w00t_ goes back to introducing a proper privacy policy at work for the first time in 6 years of operation | 13:17 | |
| Naranek | a new lock at the toilet? | 13:18 |
| bva | removing the camera at the girl's part | 13:19 |
| lcuk | adding walls to the cubicles will help | 13:19 |
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| Myrtti | people stopping being idiots is always helpful | 13:19 |
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| w00t_ | lol | 13:21 |
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| w00t_ | grr, I wish I had a faster office machine | 13:25 |
| w00t_ | this one cannot keep up with me | 13:25 |
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| * timeless_mbp needs to go shopping for a new hdd | 13:26 | |
| w00t_ | timeless_mbp: get me a new machine while you're at it | 13:27 |
| w00t_ | a 6 year old P4 is just not cutting it | 13:27 |
| timeless_mbp | w00t_: it took me 3 or 4 people to get approval for a new hdd | 13:28 |
| w00t_ | timeless_mbp: at least you *got* approval | 13:28 |
| w00t_ | :P | 13:28 |
| * timeless_mbp frowns | 13:28 | |
| timeless_mbp | i just got a reminder for an event that happened 4 hours ago | 13:28 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: sorry was in meetings | 13:28 |
| w00t_ | something has to terminally die here before we replace it | 13:28 |
| slaine_ | ah, meego repo redirects to moblin repo | 13:28 |
| slaine_ | cunning | 13:28 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: please ask the guy who setup the meego repo url to fix it so that it doesn't do what it's doing | 13:28 |
| timeless_mbp | as w00t_ note, google does not approve | 13:29 |
| slaine_ | I'm just a user | 13:29 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: if you have better access to the guy who did it, :) | 13:29 |
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| niqt | http://www.tuxjournal.net/?p=11201 traslet in english LG GW990: video first smartphone con MeeGo, is true? | 13:31 |
| detective | deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | detective: not funny anymore | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:33 |
| detective | :D | 13:33 |
| detective | ah come on | 13:34 |
| Myrtti | EMERGE WORLD! | 13:34 |
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| leinir | niqt: sort of, ish... It's not running MeeGo there, it's Moblin :) | 13:51 |
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| niqt | ok | 13:52 |
| niqt | thnaks | 13:52 |
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| CosmoHill | Meego. YouGo? WeeGo! | 14:19 |
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| megabast | CosmoHill: nice ^^ | 14:25 |
| CosmoHill | :D | 14:25 |
| CosmoHill | in my head there are two cartoon people jumping up doing a high five going "yay!" | 14:26 |
| X-Fade | ThereYaGO would have been a lot better ;) | 14:26 |
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| bva | wish I could animate now | 14:26 |
| bva | animate at all :) | 14:27 |
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| CosmoHill | i know the style i want it in too | 14:27 |
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| CosmoHill | :o | 14:32 |
| CosmoHill | contains swearing: http://www.khaoskomix.com/cgi-bin/comic.cgi?chp=6&page=57 | 14:32 |
| CosmoHill | 2nd panel down | 14:32 |
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| Stskeeps | some thoughts about Mer now that MeeGo exists: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/02/mer-project-just-bunch-of-redshirts.html | 14:38 |
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| Jaffa | Eeek, someone's gone and capitalised "maemo.org" on Who's who | 15:20 |
| Stskeeps | heh | 15:20 |
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| GAN900 | lol | 15:22 |
| Jaffa | http://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=Who%27s_who&diff=326&oldid=325 | 15:23 |
| * Jaffa would correct, but meeting time | 15:24 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, corrected. | 15:26 |
| blino | hello | 15:26 |
| Stskeeps | hello blino | 15:27 |
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| blino | do you have any idea yet which multimedia framework is going to be used in MeeGo ? | 15:31 |
| blino | would that be phonon, qtmobility, gstreamer? | 15:31 |
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| milliams | I'm not sure it's been explicitly said. But Phonon doesn't exclude GStreamer anyway. | 15:32 |
| villemv | qtmobility + gstreamer | 15:33 |
| villemv | well, qtmobility wraps gstreamer | 15:33 |
| villemv | (guessing) | 15:34 |
| villemv | + qtmultimedia | 15:34 |
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| w00t_ | i'd be relying on qtmultimedia, yeah | 15:37 |
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| rosch | I assume the Qt Mobility Multimedia API, which there easily can be written back ends for.. So IMO it doesn't matter if MeeGo ships with xine or gstreamer or somethign else. I assuem different devices will have different backends | 15:46 |
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| zaheerm | my guess is gstreamer will be part of the platform | 16:36 |
| slaine_ | it's on the diagrams iirc | 16:37 |
| slaine_ | it'll definitely be in MeeGo 1.0 for netnooks | 16:37 |
| zaheerm | yah and in harmattan | 16:37 |
| slaine_ | as the mediaplayer there is based on MX and clutter-gst | 16:37 |
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| w00t_ | there was discussion on the ML about it recently, zaheerm, and from what was said, you're right :) | 16:44 |
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| zaheerm | it is a pity that the phonon gst backend isn't good | 16:48 |
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| * arjan wakes up | 16:50 | |
| w00t_ | moin arauho | 16:50 |
| w00t_ | .. | 16:50 |
| w00t_ | arjan | 16:50 |
| Stskeeps | morning arjan | 16:50 |
| arjan | yeah on media, it's gstreamer as backend | 16:50 |
| arjan | and the qt layer on top for apps | 16:50 |
| * w00t_ nods | 16:50 | |
| arjan | I'll leave it to the qt guys to say which qt api that is | 16:51 |
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| MelisU | phonon | 16:52 |
| arjan | (there's sort of a rule of thumb; if maemo and moblin both use the same thing, it's 99% sure the same in meego) | 16:52 |
| MelisU | and Qt trumps gtk | 16:53 |
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| Cosmo|Uni | get arjan | 16:54 |
| Cosmo|Uni | and w00t_ | 16:54 |
| * w00t_ eyes Cosmo|Uni? | 16:54 | |
| *** Cosmo|Uni is now known as CosmoHill | 16:55 | |
| CosmoHill | hey* | 16:55 |
| CosmoHill | i duno how i say "get" instead if "hey" | 16:55 |
| CosmoHill | of* | 16:55 |
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| inz | Cosmo, your right hand was off-by-one. | 16:56 |
| arjan | clearly today is not a good day for you to type | 16:56 |
| arjan | :) | 16:56 |
| CosmoHill | hehe | 16:56 |
| w00t_ | a typical case of mondayitis on a friday | 16:56 |
| CosmoHill | I've spent the last hour and a half swearing at a computer / doing a tutorial | 16:56 |
| * Stskeeps looks around for loose change for the coffee machine at polish classes | 16:56 | |
| slaine_ | Woot, it's friday | 16:56 |
| * w00t_ steals all Stskeeps' change | 16:57 | |
| slaine_ | w00t_'s in your p0ck375 stealing your change | 16:57 |
| CosmoHill | today class, we will be using a feature that has been removed from the version cosmo has | 16:57 |
| Amby | Qt trumps gtk, but lizard trumps Qt | 16:57 |
| CosmoHill | and lizard tastes better | 16:58 |
| inz | Amby, fire beats rock, paper _and_ scissors | 16:58 |
| * slaine_ is currently installing qt and qt-creator to see what all the fuss is over | 16:58 | |
| w00t_ | slaine_: :) | 17:00 |
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| slaine_ | tutorial and everything, hmm, I've not time now, I'll check it later | 17:03 |
| slaine_ | will the UI scale to a netbook screen ? | 17:03 |
| CosmoHill | i'd imagine so | 17:05 |
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| CosmoHill | i'd see it as a waste of resources if it didn't use all of the screen | 17:06 |
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| CosmoHill | i need to find a good place for my PC | 17:07 |
| Amby | So, how would the five weapon RPS game go in MeeGo world? deb, rpm, obs, tarball, scratchbox? | 17:08 |
| CosmoHill | rpm is the meego package manager | 17:09 |
| arjan | not package manager | 17:10 |
| arjan | packaging format | 17:10 |
| arjan | just to nitpick on that | 17:10 |
| CosmoHill | ah sorry | 17:10 |
| CosmoHill | yum or whatever would be the package manager | 17:10 |
| arjan | zypper | 17:11 |
| CosmoHill | i may have to steal that for my distro :) | 17:12 |
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| blackxored | hi I'm a mobile technician and developer and I wanted to know what I can do to get linux on a nokia e65, it is possible? | 17:26 |
| crashanddie | If MeeGo has done anything | 17:27 |
| crashanddie | it's rekindle my belief that geeks have the ability to bikker about anything for more than a lifetime without ever reaching a conclusion -- or even approaching one | 17:27 |
| w00t_ | slaine_: it will be usable, but obviously, with differing sizes you will most likely want to rethink the UI for different size devices | 17:27 |
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| slaine_ | w00t_: I meant qt-creator itself | 17:28 |
| slaine_ | I might look at it on my netbook on the commute home this evening | 17:28 |
| w00t_ | slaine_: mm. i wouldn't personally want to use it on a small screen, but it might be usable | 17:28 |
| classic | just a quick question, will Nokia N900 support Meego? | 17:28 |
| w00t_ | classic: short answer is "maybe", longer answer is "too early to tell, really" | 17:29 |
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| classic | thanks | 17:29 |
| blackxored | Guys, I'm answering again, I'm debian/ubuntu/general developer and a hobbiest as a mobile technician, I want to know if I can install some linux on E65, I can flash eeprom, do firmware upgrade, whatever it takes, I just want to know if it can be done | 17:29 |
| w00t_ | blackxored: my guess is that the lack of an answer would indicate that nobody knows for sure - I certainly don't as I've never had experience with an E65 | 17:30 |
| dazo | patience is a virtue | 17:30 |
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| w00t_ | but yes, be patient, maybe someone who knows more will wander in | 17:31 |
| blackxored | w00t_, so let's rephrase that then, linux on a S60 phone? anyone? | 17:31 |
| w00t_ | same answer for me at least | 17:32 |
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| slaine_ | arjan: any chance of getting the qt-creator stuff into the moblin 2.1 repo's ? | 17:33 |
| dazo | blackxored: what kind of CPU does it have? ... if it is supported by the kernel, well, then you have a theoretic chance ... it then depends on what kind of hardware is driving the display and other I/O like keypads etc .... if the kernel got support for those devices, then it's getting closer | 17:34 |
| arjan | slaine_: I'll ask around | 17:34 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: ta for fixing the capitalisation | 17:34 |
| slaine_ | I don't want to install trunk just yet | 17:34 |
| slaine_ | thanks | 17:34 |
| zaheerm | blackxored, you may need to know someone at nokia to do that... | 17:34 |
| blackxored | dazo, the cpu | 17:35 |
| blackxored | Dual ARM 9 220 MHz processor | 17:35 |
| dazo | blackxored: so ... figure out what kind of hardware the E65 got first ... then check out what kind of drivers you need to at least get display and keyboard to work ... | 17:35 |
| slaine_ | and of course, I'm making an assumption that qt-creator etc are in moblin trunk ;) | 17:35 |
| * slaine_ goes check | 17:35 | |
| blackxored | supposedly moblin runs on arm | 17:35 |
| arjan | moblin does not | 17:35 |
| arjan | meego will | 17:35 |
| dazo | blackxored: not yet | 17:35 |
| CosmoHill | i don't think so | 17:35 |
| CosmoHill | moblin = intel | 17:36 |
| blackxored | arjan, meego I meant, thanks | 17:36 |
| CosmoHill | the other one = arm | 17:36 |
| CosmoHill | meego = both :) | 17:36 |
| blackxored | yeah yeah I know, it was a mistak | 17:36 |
| blackxored | so, i have an arm processor, will it run | 17:36 |
| blackxored | ? | 17:36 |
| zaheerm | blackxored, the issue is more on how you're going to flash your phone... | 17:36 |
| arjan | there's a gap between running on a processor, and running on a system | 17:36 |
| slaine_ | arjan: and a couple of weeks yet for moblin trunk to become meego trunk then I assume ? | 17:36 |
| arjan | the gap is a huge list of device drivers | 17:37 |
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| blackxored | arjan, what do I exactly need to know before proceeding with the flash? | 17:37 |
| CosmoHill | the processor is only one part of the system | 17:37 |
| CosmoHill | i wonder if it will be like the ipod, you can flash it but if all goes wrong you can still access it to reflash it | 17:38 |
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| arjan | blackxored: my suggestion is that it's unlikely to just work | 17:38 |
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| arjan | blackxored: it's not something for the faint of heart lets put it that way | 17:38 |
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| arjan | if nobody ever did it before... think "3 year project" | 17:39 |
| blackxored | CosmoHill, yeah I can revive it if I kill it | 17:39 |
| blackxored | I have flashing boxes | 17:39 |
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| Nitial | blackxored: TI has some linux stuff for omap1710 reference board.. I guess you can start looking at those | 17:41 |
| blackxored | Nitial, enlighten me | 17:41 |
| Nitial | google 'omap1710 linux' and you will get to TI linux community | 17:42 |
| Nitial | too lazy to copypaste the link with n900 ;) | 17:43 |
| slaine_ | I'm interested in getting a Tegra dev board, is there such a thing available outside the us ? | 17:44 |
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| zaheerm | there were a few at MWC earlier in the week | 17:48 |
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| zaheerm | saw some on ARM's stand | 17:49 |
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| wizkoder | moin | 17:51 |
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| CosmoHill | stupid printer | 18:02 |
| CosmoHill | it says it out of paper, i just press a button and it works | 18:02 |
| * arjan suggests the "Office Space" method | 18:02 | |
| CosmoHill | done that once | 18:02 |
| CosmoHill | throw it across my bedroom | 18:03 |
| bva | Guys i have a offtopic question, what irc client do you use? | 18:03 |
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| CosmoHill | something feel out but it stills works so i couldn't have been important | 18:04 |
| RST38h | ircii | 18:04 |
| CosmoHill | bva: xchat aqua (mac os x) | 18:04 |
| RST38h | And Maemo5 version of XChat | 18:04 |
| damien_l | irssi | 18:04 |
| CosmoHill | command line + screen? | 18:04 |
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| damien_l | indeed | 18:04 |
| bva | yeah, i'm kindof working from a windows pc :s | 18:05 |
| CosmoHill | i sometimes tunnel in via ssh from uni | 18:05 |
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| CosmoHill | bva: pidgin? | 18:05 |
| ali1234 | i use pidgin over ssh, works nice | 18:05 |
| detective | go irssi | 18:05 |
| ali1234 | i would use empathy, if they ever add proper irc support to it | 18:05 |
| AVee | bva: There are windows versions of xchat around, pidgin will do as well. Or go the irssi+screen route if you have ssh acces to some *nix box. | 18:06 |
| bpeel | erc probably works on windows | 18:07 |
| AVee | Or irssi on cygwin... | 18:08 |
| bva | mmmm ... going to use the ssh tunnel. thanks anyway. Didnt knew it was so badly these thays with Wdws IRC clients | 18:09 |
| bpeel | mIRC is common on windows | 18:09 |
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| bva | yeah but you have to pay for that :) | 18:10 |
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| bpeel | well, you have to pay for windows too, so what do you expect :) | 18:10 |
| Myrtti | xchat is free | 18:10 |
| AVee | True, that's also common on windows (unless it's spyware) ;) | 18:10 |
| ali1234 | windows programmers have to pay for all those windows licences somehow | 18:10 |
| bva | aha found irsii windows ...! | 18:11 |
| detective | windows fail | 18:11 |
| Myrtti | http://www.silverex.org/ etc | 18:11 |
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| AVee | Or, if you keep running into these kind of issues, install andLinux. Worked wonders for me in the past. | 18:12 |
| bva | yeah I have a linux downstairs on my tower pc but its cold there :p | 18:12 |
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| AVee | Ah, so the cpu load is just to low? ;) | 18:13 |
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| bva | héhé no there is no heating :p | 18:16 |
| bva | Maybe I should try some benchmarks to heat is up | 18:16 |
| bva | anyway thanks for the help | 18:16 |
| AVee | You might be suprised about how well that works... | 18:16 |
| ptl | just took my master degree in molecular biology and genetics. :D | 18:16 |
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| * ptl happy | 18:17 | |
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| bva_irssi | I modified (layout) http://www.wiki.meego.com/Glossary a bit, I hope its okay that way? | 18:23 |
| ptl | no, it became horrible, you really screwed up! Shame on you! | 18:25 |
| ptl | kidding! | 18:25 |
| bva_irssi | :) | 18:25 |
| bva_irssi | I saw the sarcasm :p | 18:25 |
| ptl | I can't even see the page, it says Not Found - The requested URL /Glossary was not found on this server. | 18:25 |
| V13 | www.wiki ? | 18:26 |
| bva_irssi | there is a link on the mainpage | 18:26 |
| V13 | :P | 18:26 |
| ptl | took the www off and it worked | 18:26 |
| bva_irssi | oops, I guess | 18:26 |
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| V13 | FWIW: BME description is not good. It doesn't say what it is. It just mentions what it does | 18:27 |
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| bva_irssi | I kind of didnt create the text :) just did the layout | 18:28 |
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| MelisU | WOW, QML is so awesome. Meego really needs to advertise it. It totally rocks. Especially for different devices. Cool stuff. | 18:41 |
| MelisU | http://qt.nokia.com/doc/main-snapshot/declarativeui.html | 18:42 |
| damien_l | MelisU: have you tried it? | 18:42 |
| MelisU | damien_l: I just found that link. But I intend to play with that "Same game" example tonight | 18:43 |
| MelisU | Any Qt devs around? Will QML apps have startup lag like Python apps? | 18:43 |
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| MelisU | I'll ask in #qt :) | 18:44 |
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| villemv | MelisU: QML apps now have a lag | 18:57 |
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| villemv | but otoh it's not "final" technology and this can be speeded up | 18:57 |
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| smhar | I spent a lot of time reading the many pages of talk.maemo.org -and meego.com- but still nobody seems to get a definite answer, so any one got some news on this? with the introduction of meego is the N900 a dead road? I WAS planning to get one soon | 18:58 |
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| tripz0 | smhar, just like with maemo6, there is no official word on the n900 getting the update | 18:59 |
| tripz0 | but no word doesn't mean dead end | 18:59 |
| villemv | smhar: Stskeeps will port Meego for n900 ;-) | 18:59 |
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| tripz0 | right, the community may port whatever they want for the n900 | 18:59 |
| tripz0 | i plan on getting one in the near future | 19:00 |
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| slaine_ | is anyone getting decent speeds off the moblin repo ? | 19:26 |
| slaine_ | I'm only getting 20kB/s for the qt-doc rpms | 19:26 |
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| Amby | bva_irssi: thanks for the Glossary wiki update | 19:43 |
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| itdock | ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh | 19:58 |
| arjan | bhhhhhhhhhh | 19:59 |
| slaine_ | wtf is going on with moblin repo | 19:59 |
| slaine_ | I'm getting 17kB/s, at best | 19:59 |
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| itdock | moblin needs more bw | 20:02 |
| slaine_ | itdock: it's not just me then ? | 20:05 |
| itdock | no i had issues with it yesterday | 20:05 |
| slaine_ | sigh | 20:05 |
| Amby | must be the millions of MeeGo developers joining | 20:05 |
| slaine_ | or the milliona of maemo users seeing WTF this Moblin thing is ;) | 20:06 |
| arjan | slaine_: fwiw it's also mirrored on kernel.org | 20:06 |
| arjan | and those guys have real bandwidth | 20:06 |
| slaine_ | nod, I was going to change my repo | 20:06 |
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| slaine_ | but I've to leave in 5 mins, so I'll skip it 'til I get home | 20:07 |
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| anaZ | itdock: what are you d/ling exactly and from where? | 20:09 |
| itdock | was downloading the moblin netbook iso yesterday i was getting abysmal speeds | 20:09 |
| slaine_ | I was pulling the qt-doc rpm | 20:09 |
| anaZ | qt-doc is indeed a large file... | 20:10 |
| anaZ | from where? | 20:10 |
| slaine_ | didn't really need it, just qt-devel for now | 20:10 |
| slaine_ | creating a qt-creator package for moblin 2.1 | 20:10 |
| anaZ | why bother with 2.1 :) | 20:11 |
| slaine_ | 'cause that's whats on my netbook | 20:11 |
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| anaZ | I see | 20:11 |
| slaine_ | it'll be in 2.2, I mean MeeGo 1.0 | 20:11 |
| slaine_ | :) | 20:11 |
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| th0br0 | Right, so~ any news? :D | 20:20 |
| CosmoHill | todo with meego? no | 20:21 |
| th0br0 | yay! f12 arm as the base for meego arm! w00t! :D | 20:21 |
| * w00t_ eyes th0br0 | 20:22 | |
| hwoarang | is there a public repo for meego or it is way too early for that ? :) | 20:22 |
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| th0br0 | :P w00t_ | 20:22 |
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| th0br0 | hwoarang: afaik we'll have that in ~2 weeks time | 20:22 |
| w00t_ | hwoarang: too early - first code is expected in 2-3 weeks I think | 20:22 |
| hwoarang | i see. thank you both :) | 20:22 |
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| meinereiner | Hi | 20:52 |
| meinereiner | /who | 20:52 |
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| arachnist | lol? | 20:52 |
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| thiago_home | /wtf | 20:55 |
| thiago_home | :-) | 20:55 |
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| * RST38h yawns again | 20:58 | |
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| tripz0 | is the n900's gps incompatible with gpsd? | 21:00 |
| tripz0 | is that the reason for locator-daemon or whatever it's called? | 21:01 |
| mikeleib | IIRC, locator-daemon does the agps stuff | 21:01 |
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| Tm_T | community ML is working apparently (: | 21:11 |
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| th0br0 | indeed Tm_T | 21:16 |
| th0br0 | only there haven't been any replies yet | 21:16 |
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| Tm_T | th0br0: I blame you | 21:22 |
| th0br0 | blame! blame! who is to blame? | 21:22 |
| th0br0 | and for what am i to blame? | 21:22 |
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| donpdonp | sounds like the opening of an opera. | 21:23 |
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| Tm_T | th0br0: the mail mess I just went thru in half-panic (: | 21:29 |
| th0br0 | huh Tm_T? | 21:30 |
| Tm_T | th0br0: see if my reply got to ML finally | 21:30 |
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| th0br0 | ah Tm_T | 21:31 |
| th0br0 | it did | 21:31 |
| Tm_T | wow (: | 21:31 |
| Tm_T | bit hard, no "reply to ML" for me, had to copy-paste the address | 21:32 |
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| th0br0 | hugs! :D | 21:32 |
| th0br0 | i get a "reply list" here, though | 21:32 |
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| * Tm_T huggles th0br0 | 21:33 | |
| th0br0 | :) | 21:33 |
| * th0br0 huggles Tm_T back ;) | 21:33 | |
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| CosmoHill | oo hugs | 21:38 |
| arachnist | hugs? | 21:39 |
| * arachnist needs a hug... | 21:39 | |
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| * auke hands out free hugs | 21:48 | |
| Stskeeps | are the mailing lists turning that toxic that this place feels like heaven compared? ;) | 21:49 |
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| Stskeeps | almost afraid to catch up on my mail | 21:50 |
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| * Tm_T huggles Stskeeps and arachnist | 21:52 | |
| Tm_T | ...and by the end of this month whole meego community AND project has been turned into pink pony worship cult | 21:53 |
| Tm_T | has/will | 21:53 |
| Stskeeps | like maemo turned into a bacon worshipping cult | 21:53 |
| leinir | Mmm, bacon | 21:55 |
| bva2 | I prefer pink ponys | 21:55 |
| leinir | Pink pony bacon | 21:55 |
| uhsf | mee too, i'm vegan | 21:55 |
| uhsf | BaDa, ChumBy, MaeMo, MeeGo, MobLin, MyLo | 21:55 |
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| * CosmoHill hugs arachnist | 21:55 | |
| arachnist | :) | 21:56 |
| CosmoHill | i brought hugs to the #lfs-support :D | 21:56 |
| RST38h | Maeblin. | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | also, since when was Maemo a open community projet? | 21:58 |
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| CosmoHill | since monday | 21:58 |
| Stskeeps | are these people delusional about how maemo was developed? | 21:58 |
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| uhsf | Maeblin sound too much like that Chuck Berry song. | 21:58 |
| CosmoHill | i'd never heard of maemo until tuesday | 21:59 |
| CosmoHill | I still can't spell it, i have to copy someone else's spelling | 21:59 |
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| simula_ | hahaha | 21:59 |
| suihkulokki | Stskeeps: according to a video I watched earlier this week, the brain switches the logical part off when onefeels threatened | 21:59 |
| CosmoHill | so if i ask about the nokia project or "the non-moblin" i mean maemo | 22:00 |
| RST38h | Ma eBlin | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | suihkulokki: that would explain it, ues | 22:00 |
| CosmoHill | RST38h: that sounds like a cat | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | yes | 22:00 |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, turned? | 22:04 |
| lcuk | i believe it was baconified long before i arrived | 22:04 |
| lcuk | i just rendered it | 22:04 |
| RST38h | CosmoHill: Sounds way different, for people with different backgrounds | 22:04 |
| CosmoHill | I read a comic with a cat called Eben in itr | 22:05 |
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| Bva_ | What was the URL of the meego repository egain? | 22:06 |
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| CosmoHill | i didn't think there was one yet | 22:06 |
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| Bva_ | I mean the one were all the moblin packages where | 22:07 |
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| TimRiker | ~save | 22:08 |
| infobot | saved user and chan files | 22:08 |
| TimRiker | ~logs | 22:08 |
| infobot | All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged. | 22:08 |
| th0br0 | Bva_: repo.meego.com | 22:08 |
| Stskeeps | thanks | 22:08 |
| TimRiker | ~lart DocScrutinizer | 22:09 |
| * infobot chops DocScrutinizer in half with a free Solaris 7 CD | 22:09 | |
| rwhitby | TimRiker: earlier logs are at logs.nslu2-linux.org if you want to grab them | 22:09 |
| th0br0 | so why is this line not logged, duh! | 22:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | TimRiker: heh :-D | 22:09 |
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| RST38h | because you are not worthy to be logged | 22:09 |
| * RST38h cackles evilly | 22:09 | |
| villemv | anyone listened to latest linux outlaws | 22:09 |
| villemv | annoying fud about meego | 22:09 |
| TimRiker | th0br0, so you can type that sekrit 1337 stuph | 22:10 |
| CosmoHill | fud? | 22:10 |
| th0br0 | \/\/007. 1 4|\/| 50 |337 | 22:10 |
| villemv | you know, "maemo looked promising and now they are killing it" | 22:10 |
| lcuk | so we have 2 logbots? | 22:10 |
| villemv | nokia totally screwed their developers | 22:10 |
| villemv | etc etc | 22:10 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder if we had a summit soon that there would be fistfights over rpm vs deb | 22:11 |
| RST38h | bring a few molotovs just in case | 22:12 |
| dl9pf | sumo | 22:12 |
| villemv | the show (outlaws) at least didn't go to deb/rpm thing | 22:12 |
| th0br0 | that would be funny. i'd love to watch that. | 22:12 |
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| RST38h | In fact, there is a Maemo developer training summit in Moscow next month | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: raise the topic and grab popcorn | 22:13 |
| * RST38h Stskeeps: Hey, I cannot | 22:13 | |
| villemv | hand out armbands with rpm / deb colors | 22:13 |
| TimRiker | lcuk, seems so for the moment anyway. | 22:13 |
| lcuk | which weapons are you choosing | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: infobot is much more than a mere logbot | 22:14 |
| lcuk | and where can i get popcorn from | 22:14 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: I actually asked my people to avoid mentioning employer | 22:14 |
| * TimRiker does not pick a color. rpm and deb are both bad, just in different ways. | 22:14 | |
| villemv | "we selected rpm because DEB SUCKS" | 22:14 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: (which is ok as we do not officially represent it there) | 22:14 |
| lcuk | this rpm deb seems as serious as the talk.maemo.org coup | 22:15 |
| lcuk | the one where people didnt like the colorscheme | 22:15 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Actually, as long as Maeblin is LSB-compliant, I do not see much of a problem | 22:15 |
| lcuk | me neither | 22:15 |
| RST38h | lcuk: It is not like DEB is such a nice and trouble free thing either | 22:16 |
| lcuk | the mechanism to get the code in our hands is mere fluff | 22:16 |
| villemv | and sticky, messy fluff at that | 22:16 |
| TimRiker | why not use a zip of a rar of an rpm (cpio +) and a deb (ar + tar) then? that way you'd need _all_ the archive tools to install? | 22:16 |
| RST38h | And they are not gonna consider pkg_add, so why even worry? | 22:16 |
| Stskeeps | TimRiker: on a 5 1/4 floppy | 22:16 |
| villemv | or those tapes GNU project used to send out | 22:16 |
| TimRiker | Stskeeps, need an 8" to fit in my HP. | 22:17 |
| lcuk | i said at the start anyway: installshield. its the future | 22:17 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Or that AmigaOS system, based on LISP | 22:17 |
| TimRiker | 5.25 would be fine if it's in apple ][ 144k format. | 22:17 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, i cant even remember amiga packaging? | 22:18 |
| RST38h | Anyways, nightly DrWho and sleep. | 22:18 |
| lcuk | did you install stuff | 22:18 |
| lcuk | or just run it from floppy | 22:18 |
| RST38h | lcuk: AmigaOS installer used LISP for its scripts | 22:18 |
| TimRiker | lcuk, clearly for an embedded project a war file would be better than installshield | 22:18 |
| lcuk | RST38h, ahh i tohught most of the scripting was arexx | 22:18 |
| RST38h | lcuk: And yes, there was installer. Not for games mostly, but for real software | 22:18 |
| hcarrega | yes arexx | 22:18 |
| th0br0 | why is *vereyone* *everywhere* talking about AmigaOS... :S | 22:18 |
| lcuk | TimRiker, no and if you continue on this route, i shall enforce Visual Basic Package and deployment wizard upon you | 22:19 |
| RST38h | lcuk: arexx was kinda like AmigaOS version of Python+DBus | 22:19 |
| lcuk | yeah | 22:19 |
| lcuk | apps were developed with dual interfaces | 22:19 |
| TimRiker | I'm voting for unix v5 tar on papertape. | 22:19 |
| lcuk | and those that took it seriously really did do wonders | 22:19 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Well, AmigaOS had a lot of things that Unix only gained 5-10 years after AmigaOS died | 22:19 |
| lcuk | i arexxed my way out of many problems | 22:19 |
| RST38h | Unfortunately, it was also owned by a company that actively refused to do any business | 22:20 |
| lcuk | RST38h, amiga was ahead of its time on many counts | 22:20 |
| lcuk | i am pleased with the years i had with it | 22:20 |
| RST38h | Anyways, sleep. | 22:21 |
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| TimRiker | ~rot13 TimRiker | 22:39 |
| infobot | GvzEvxre | 22:39 |
| inz | ~doublerot13 foo | 22:39 |
| ShadowJK | you need quad rounds of rot13 to be sure | 22:39 |
| inz | true | 22:40 |
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| TimRiker | ~rot26 ShadowJK | 22:41 |
| infobot | ShadowJK | 22:41 |
| Tereska | hi | 22:41 |
| TimRiker | ~reverse ShadowJK | 22:41 |
| Tereska | i have some problems with QT Creator on Windows platform | 22:41 |
| infobot | KJwodahS | 22:41 |
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| * TimRiker stop playing with the bot. | 22:41 | |
| TimRiker | :) | 22:41 |
| Tm_T | glad there's http://www.meegos.com/ | 22:41 |
| Tereska | i've created gui application :) empty one | 22:41 |
| Tereska | and i have huge amount of errors on build | 22:42 |
| thiago_home | Tereska: you can ask in #qt or #qt-creator too, but what's the issue? | 22:42 |
| thiago_home | what's the first error? | 22:42 |
| inz | ~rot52 foo | 22:42 |
| infobot | foo | 22:42 |
| inz | So you can do quad, great to know | 22:42 |
| Tereska | c:\sdk\qt\2010.01\mingw\bin\../lib/gcc/mingw32/4.4.0/include/c++/string:40: error: bits/c++config.h: No such file or directory | 22:43 |
| Tereska | but there is one :) | 22:43 |
| * thiago_home points out that the Norwegian alphabet has 29 letters | 22:43 | |
| thiago_home | Tereska: your mingw isn't properly installed... | 22:43 |
| Tereska | i've set QT framework to be 4.6.1 in Options/QT4 | 22:43 |
| Bva_ | Tereska I would advice you to remove and reïntall with normal options and try egain | 22:44 |
| MisterN | thiago_home: the german alphabet has 30. we win. | 22:44 |
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| Tereska | i try. but install process is very easy... you know :) next next next ;) | 22:45 |
| Tereska | on my mac everything is OK | 22:45 |
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| thiago_home | Tereska: where is that file (c++config.h) ? | 22:45 |
| thiago_home | MisterN: does ä count as a separate letter from a"? | 22:45 |
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| vmlemon_ | Wow, that crappy site slows FireFox to a crawl on my machine | 22:46 |
| MisterN | thiago_home: ??? | 22:46 |
| MisterN | thiago_home: a" is two letters :P | 22:46 |
| thiago_home | MisterN: I meant a, sorry. The " was an accident. | 22:46 |
| MisterN | thiago_home: yes of course a is different from ä | 22:46 |
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| Tereska | there are @ C:\SDK\Qt\2010.01\mingw\lib\gcc\mingw32\4.4.0\include\c++\bits | 22:47 |
| thiago_home | MisterN: different place in the alphabet? Or sorted as ae ? | 22:47 |
| thiago_home | Tereska: how about c++config.h ? | 22:47 |
| villemv | only norwegians combine ae | 22:47 |
| MisterN | thiago_home: sorted as ae, normally. | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | villemv: and danes | 22:48 |
| thiago_home | æ is a separate letter for Norwegians, sorted at the end of the alphabet, before ø and å | 22:48 |
| villemv | MisterN: isn't ä at the end of alphabet? | 22:48 |
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| thiago_home | which makes for funny sorting from A to AA | 22:48 |
| MisterN | villemv: not in german dictionaries. | 22:48 |
| villemv | ok, danes too | 22:48 |
| MisterN | thiago_home: but ä is a distinct letter anyways | 22:48 |
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| MisterN | it's simply not the same as a | 22:49 |
| Tereska | there is one @ C:\sdk\Qt\2010.01\mingw\lib\gcc\mingw32\4.4.0\include\c++\mingw32\bits\c++config | 22:49 |
| villemv | weird. so germans sort the alphabet differently from finns and swedes | 22:49 |
| villemv | that's pretty fscked up | 22:49 |
| MisterN | villemv: it's not our fault that you northerners do it wrong :P | 22:49 |
| thiago_home | Tereska: thanks | 22:49 |
| thiago_home | Tereska: can you pastebin the output of cpp -v -xc++ ? | 22:49 |
| villemv | MisterN: hey, we are iso-8859-x compliant | 22:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | villemv: no. ae isn't æ | 22:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | ae is ä | 22:50 |
| MisterN | ae is also æ | 22:50 |
| MisterN | :D | 22:50 |
| villemv | ok, I give up in trying to understand what you are on about | 22:51 |
| Tereska | thiago_home: thanks. i can see now what is the problem. i'have DevCpp first in my PATH | 22:51 |
| MisterN | i had a prof whose name was Vœller and i mistakenly wrote Völler. he didn't like that! | 22:51 |
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| Tereska | C:\Users\tereska>cpp -v -xc++ | 22:51 |
| Tereska | Reading specs from C:/Dev-Cpp/bin/../lib/gcc/mingw32/3.4.2/specs(...) | 22:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer | there's no æ in German, so we don't sort the alphabet differently to Finns and Swedish | 22:51 |
| villemv | so in german phonebook äschermeister is before Benedictus? | 22:51 |
| thiago_home | Tereska: you need to ensure taht gcc doesn't interfere | 22:51 |
| MisterN | DocScrutinizer: some names contain these symbols | 22:51 |
| villemv | DocScrutinizer: yes, I was talking about ä | 22:51 |
| thiago_home | Tereska: mingw's gcc 3.4 is not binary compatible with the 4.4 that comes with Qt | 22:51 |
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| thiago_home | Tereska: at least, not in C++ | 22:52 |
| MisterN | villemv: yes. | 22:52 |
| Tereska | ok i try to remove DevCpp from PATH. maybe it helps :) thanks for the tip | 22:52 |
| villemv | MisterN: so you can't just sort lexically by iso-8859-1 then... | 22:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | MisterN: Finnish names ;-) | 22:52 |
| MisterN | villemv: and it's at the same place as a hypothetical Aeschermeister | 22:52 |
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| villemv | ok. have to use that trivia sometimes in a casual conversation | 22:52 |
| MisterN | DocScrutinizer: or maybe from other funny places | 22:52 |
| MisterN | DocScrutinizer: huguenots maybe | 22:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | anyway collation sequence defined by LOCALE is rather clearly specified | 22:53 |
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| villemv | out of historical interest... when germans were using 8bit encodings, did they manually check for weird characters when sorting? | 22:57 |
| villemv | as opposed to just comparing integer values of chars | 22:57 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, errr, finns and swedes sort åäö as separate chars at the end of the alphabet | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm, ok. So tjhey definitely have a different collation sequence than Germans | 23:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Anyway I don't care. I got LOCALE to sort that out for me | 23:02 |
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| MisterN | villemv: i guess computers just used the wrong sort order when programmers were lazy | 23:05 |
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| villemv | yeah, I imagine that would have caused a problem of two for systems that were dependent on correct sort order | 23:06 |
| villemv | problem OR two | 23:06 |
| MisterN | but i'm really too young to know such things | 23:06 |
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| Stskeeps | ah, the wonders of maemo scripts. using run-parts -l, which magically only exists as --list in debianutils -l | 23:26 |
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| Stskeeps | (a busyboxism) | 23:27 |
| lcuk | so Stskeeps is it the parameter itself thats missing, or just the shortcut | 23:29 |
| Stskeeps | well, the short version doesn't exist in real debian | 23:30 |
| Stskeeps | (lenny) | 23:30 |
| lcuk | and what is expecting it to exist | 23:31 |
| Stskeeps | -l (long version --list) | 23:31 |
| lcuk | no, why is that a problem is what i mean. what are you running thats expecting the short one | 23:32 |
| Stskeeps | Fremantle on top of Debian 5.0. | 23:32 |
| Stskeeps | (i do have a point with that.) | 23:32 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:32 |
| lcuk | i was just curious is all | 23:33 |
| lcuk | cos things like autotools exists because of all these incompatabilities | 23:33 |
| lcuk | they are known and expected acros sthe board | 23:33 |
| villemv | I guess autotools can't help w/ busybox | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | well, this problem is cos the scripts relying on being run on busybox | 23:34 |
| villemv | since normal sbox build env isn't testing stuff w/ busybox | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | which is fail :) | 23:34 |
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| lcuk | no, but autotools exists solely because of these sorts of incompatabilities in tooling. to find theres similar things in other commands shouldnt come as a surprise | 23:35 |
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| villemv | autotools exists because of the sins of manking | 23:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ~lart messybox | 23:36 |
| * infobot gives messybox an extra strength ACME sleeping pill, sending messybox to sleep for 150 years, and awakening to seven strange dwarfs and a large apple | 23:36 | |
| villemv | "yes, I have a fortran compiler. Why are yo asking?" | 23:36 |
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