| slaine_ | running a fedora moblin spin shows acceptable performance on Atom and on this hardware | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| RST38h | Which is also not exactly fresh | 00:00 |
| villemv | ah, "supplemental" | 00:00 |
| lcuk | at least with all the slow performance in emulated environment we will get great results on actual hardware | 00:00 |
| RST38h | Core2 Duo should make the job | 00:00 |
| lcuk | since devs will work extra hard to ensure its quick | 00:01 |
| villemv | yeah, my core 2 duo has pni, ssse3 | 00:01 |
| slaine_ | arjan: anyway. What I'd like to know now is, how can I help | 00:01 |
| villemv | pni is what matters I guess | 00:01 |
| RST38h | Core2 Duo is SUPPOSED to have SSSE3 | 00:01 |
| slaine_ | I've built MeeGo trunk | 00:01 |
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| slaine_ | I've booted it and it's pretty rough at the moment. | 00:02 |
| slaine_ | So what's the plan here | 00:02 |
| villemv | arjan: so how do you develop with moblin? do you use a chroot or what? | 00:02 |
| slaine_ | How are patches to be submitted etc. | 00:02 |
| villemv | or do you use moblin as host environment while you do it? | 00:02 |
| RST38h | Well my personal plan is to go hit the bed and continue using Maemo5 for now :) | 00:02 |
| lbt | villemv: OBS makes chroot setup trivial | 00:03 |
| villemv | ok, so OBS creates a chroot "rootstrap" for you? | 00:03 |
| slaine_ | as doe the moblin tools | 00:03 |
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| lbt | villemv: essentially, yes | 00:03 |
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| villemv | and you use xephyr too? | 00:03 |
| lbt | it has flexibility and can create 1/pkg per arch | 00:04 |
| lbt | yes you can | 00:04 |
| lbt | usually the chroots are minimal based on build-deps | 00:04 |
| chickengeorge_n | irc://irc.freenode.net/bratwurst <------------ meego-professional-helpdesk german/english | 00:04 |
| lbt | you can extend them to full envs for testing or use vms | 00:04 |
| villemv | okay, so we can have all that we have have w/ sbox then | 00:05 |
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| lbt | and more (without the "ugh") | 00:05 |
| * timeless_mbp gets a moblin boot screen | 00:05 | |
| timeless_mbp | the white on black is a lot nicer than nokia's blue on white :) | 00:05 |
| lbt | villemv: it's really nice :) | 00:05 |
| villemv | sounds like it | 00:06 |
| lbt | villemv: feel free to bug me about it - but you'll have to teach others anything you learn ;) | 00:06 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: i thought meego sources wouldn't be available for a whlie | 00:06 |
| timeless_mbp | s/lie/ile/ | 00:06 |
| lbt | villemv: and just to play with it you can look at this tutorial - it's worthwile even though it's not moblin : http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build | 00:07 |
| villemv | lbt: thanks for the offer, I might actually bring you up to task on that ;-) | 00:07 |
| lbt | focus on the Getting Started para - it's a cut'n'paste step by step | 00:07 |
| lbt | villemv: are you nokian btw | 00:08 |
| villemv | yes | 00:08 |
| lbt | we have some internal training material too | 00:08 |
| lbt | lbt on p.m.o. | 00:08 |
| villemv | but luckily I'm clueless about this new development, so I don't breach any NDA's by looknig stupid here :-) | 00:08 |
| villemv | url? | 00:08 |
| villemv | or is that ml? | 00:09 |
| lbt | jabber? | 00:09 |
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| villemv | ah, no, I don't use p.m.o jabber | 00:09 |
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| villemv | I thought you had some material up on PMO | 00:09 |
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| villemv | sec, pm | 00:10 |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine_: so, my vm doesn't seem to boot past the moblin splash screen | 00:11 |
| timeless_mbp | is there a way for me to do something? | 00:11 |
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| Stskeeps | auke: thanks for the kind words, - think a CC to the list would work too to calm the waters :) | 00:20 |
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| timeless_mbp | list? | 00:21 |
| Stskeeps | meego-dev | 00:22 |
| w00t | meego-dev, probably | 00:22 |
| auke | Stskeeps: shush, don't want to be seen brown-nosing too much :) | 00:23 |
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| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: tbh I can't recall if I needed to do anything extra, I've had that VM for a almost 2 years I think | 00:26 |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine_: you sure i can't convince you to clone your vm, strip out all the private bits and publish? | 00:26 |
| lcuk | or find out if anyone else has a fresh clean one somewhere | 00:27 |
| slaine_ | I'm sure there's details out there on googleland | 00:27 |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine_: google land isn't being kind to me | 00:27 |
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| lcuk | slaine_, i would consider irc to be better for an active community, and it only takes one knowledgable person with the info to post a link than having us as technical n00bs scavenging around not knowing exactly which is right | 00:29 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: can you check if ACPI/IO APIC/PAE are all enabled ? | 00:29 |
| slaine_ | iirc, you need them all | 00:30 |
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| timeless_mbp | i have IO APIC checked | 00:30 |
| timeless_mbp | and pae/nx | 00:30 |
| timeless_mbp | and vt-x/amd-v and nested paging | 00:30 |
| * timeless_mbp enables 3d accel and 2d accel | 00:31 | |
| lcuk | afk anyway, cyas later timeless w00t etc \o | 00:31 |
| slaine_ | turn off 3d accel | 00:31 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, ^ | 00:31 |
| slaine_ | later lcuk | 00:31 |
| javispedro | bye lcuk | 00:31 |
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| koupsa | boot on init3 in console mod | 00:32 |
| koupsa | alt+f1 on moblin boot then access grub | 00:33 |
| timeless_mbp | koupsa: ok, alt+f1 got me grub | 00:33 |
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| timeless_mbp | 'now what' | 00:33 |
| w00t | cya lcuk | 00:33 |
| * GeneralAntilles wonders who the Bugzilla contact is Moblin-side. | 00:33 | |
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| koupsa | erase quiet and (arf i dont remember) 2minutes | 00:34 |
| auke | GeneralAntilles: for maintenance or QA? | 00:34 |
| koupsa | boot on console mode init3 then startx | 00:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | auke, for the web stuff. | 00:35 |
| javispedro | moblin-2.1-final-20091103-002.img: ISO 9660 CD-ROM. uhh.. | 00:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | auke, I'd like to try to start coordinating between b.m.o and b.m.c | 00:35 |
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| timeless_mbp | koupsa: sorry, is 'boot on console mode init3' part of my grub args? | 00:35 |
| slaine_ | at the end of the kernel parameters in grub, put 3 | 00:35 |
| slaine_ | with a space before it | 00:35 |
| koupsa | right | 00:36 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, w/o the 3, i ended up being able to reach some screwed up console | 00:36 |
| timeless_mbp | but i think it keeps switching to a broken x console? | 00:36 |
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| slaine_ | if you have the parameters right, it shouldn't | 00:37 |
| timeless_mbp | it looks like it's trying to respawn x11 and failing miserably | 00:37 |
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| slaine_ | you might have to alt+f2 to a different console | 00:37 |
| Stskeeps | auke: was more in degree of helping to steer discussion in a saner way :), not seeking public praise | 00:37 |
| slaine_ | it's more likely the KMS framebuffer wasn't cleared as it was expecting to hand over to X | 00:37 |
| Stskeeps | bbl sleep | 00:37 |
| pwnguin | timeless: donno what you need, but boot init=/bin/bash might be an option :) | 00:38 |
| pwnguin | or sh, i donno what moblin ships | 00:38 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, now i can't get a grub console | 00:38 |
| slaine_ | timeless, what are you using, moblin 2.1 final image ? | 00:38 |
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| timeless_mbp | yes | 00:38 |
| slaine_ | I'll give it a shot here | 00:38 |
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| auke | GeneralAntilles: send an e-mail to me and arjan, we'll take it from there? | 00:39 |
| javispedro | the livecd doesn't use grub seems | 00:39 |
| slaine_ | syslinux | 00:39 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, i'm in, the 3 seems to have helped | 00:40 |
| slaine_ | Tab should still get your the boot menu though | 00:40 |
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| javispedro | s/menu/kernel cmd line :) | 00:40 |
| slaine_ | that gives you the console | 00:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | auke, OK. | 00:40 |
| slaine_ | you can change the default boot to be run level 3 for now if you like, edit the /etc/inittab file | 00:40 |
| javispedro | aha | 00:40 |
| javispedro | that skips gdm I guess | 00:41 |
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| slaine_ | there is no GDM | 00:41 |
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| slaine_ | uxlauncher starts X and the sessions | 00:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | auke, the auke-jan.h.kok at intel dot com one? | 00:41 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, so now i should try startx? as root or user? | 00:41 |
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| auke | GeneralAntilles: yep. I don't use my linux.intel.com one much | 00:41 |
| timeless_mbp | (user fails) | 00:42 |
| * timeless_mbp tries as root | 00:42 | |
| slaine_ | it might give you an idea as to why it's not working | 00:42 |
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| javispedro | while we're at it, what's the root password? :) | 00:42 |
| slaine_ | moblin iirc | 00:42 |
| javispedro | ah, moblin | 00:42 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, this is shiny | 00:42 |
| koupsa | sudo startx | 00:42 |
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| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: success ? | 00:42 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah | 00:42 |
| timeless_mbp | so um | 00:42 |
| slaine_ | cool | 00:42 |
| koupsa | root not a real user in moblin | 00:43 |
| timeless_mbp | why doesn't the normal thing work? | 00:43 |
| javispedro | "moblin is not in the sudoers file", fwiw. | 00:43 |
| timeless_mbp | koupsa: eIDontGiveADmn | 00:43 |
| slaine_ | javispedro: when you do an actual install the user you created does get added | 00:43 |
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| javispedro | so well, I had same problem as timeless, but startx as root helped. vmware server here. | 00:44 |
| slaine_ | cool | 00:44 |
| timeless_mbp | javispedro: yeah, startx as root worked | 00:44 |
| javispedro | clearly using software rendering... | 00:45 |
| javispedro | timeless: does vbox gl stuff work? is the ui snappy? | 00:45 |
| slaine_ | interesting, I don't recall having to do that | 00:45 |
| slaine_ | no | 00:45 |
| slaine_ | slow as a slow thing | 00:45 |
| javispedro | ah, well. | 00:45 |
| timeless_mbp | javispedro: sorry, i wouldn't know | 00:45 |
| timeless_mbp | the system is responsive enough | 00:46 |
| slaine_ | the VM's don't have a DRI2 driver | 00:46 |
| slaine_ | it's usable as a test bed | 00:46 |
| javispedro | I can quickly put vmgl in there, | 00:46 |
| javispedro | but vmgl is "only" gl 1.1 | 00:46 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: glad to see that the moblin.org home page doesn't fit in my screen | 00:46 |
| timeless_mbp | that's awesome. | 00:46 |
| pwnguin | heh | 00:46 |
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| javispedro | it crashed on me already :) | 00:47 |
| javispedro | hey, i tried three distros and managed to crash the ui on all three without even dropping on a terminal | 00:47 |
| slaine_ | I think by default it runs at 720x400 | 00:47 |
| slaine_ | you have to install the guest tools | 00:47 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: i have 800x600x32 | 00:47 |
| timeless_mbp | wow | 00:48 |
| timeless_mbp | it detected my new media, showed me the task switcher, and opened the file browser | 00:48 |
| javispedro | looks cool | 00:48 |
| timeless_mbp | and it has *two* "The media contains software. [Open Autorun Prompt]" rows | 00:48 |
| slaine_ | min screen size it expects is 1024x600 | 00:48 |
| javispedro | a pity that's über slow here, due to the software rendering | 00:48 |
| timeless_mbp | what idiot would add two? | 00:48 |
| pwnguin | if there's two autoruns on the media i guess | 00:49 |
| * slaine_ coughs politely | 00:49 | |
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| timeless_mbp | pwnguin: how does one manage that? | 00:49 |
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| slaine_ | more likely, vbox installed one already and you added a second one | 00:50 |
| slaine_ | s/installed/inserted | 00:50 |
| timeless_mbp | there's an autorun.inf and an autorun.sh | 00:50 |
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| pwnguin | there ya go | 00:50 |
| pwnguin | thats how | 00:50 |
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| pwnguin | im guessing the .inf is windows | 00:50 |
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| slaine_ | yeah, same iso for all platforms | 00:51 |
| javispedro | slaine_: btw, I just checked and confirmed vbox uses the xengl approach. It shouldn't even need DRI but some patches to libGL. | 00:52 |
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| timeless_mbp | the guest additions fail to install | 00:53 |
| timeless_mbp | it just says 'Detected unsupported x86 environment.' | 00:53 |
| slaine_ | oh shit, forgot, you need some dev tools installed | 00:53 |
| * javispedro ponders wheter spending a few minutes trying vmgl on the VM... | 00:53 | |
| timeless_mbp | ok, this is just because it's actually 32bit not 64bit | 00:54 |
| timeless_mbp | i picked the wrong critter | 00:54 |
| timeless_mbp | how do i get linux kernel headers? | 00:54 |
| slaine_ | Go to the Applications panel open the terminal | 00:54 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah, i'm there | 00:54 |
| slaine_ | and then do | 00:54 |
| slaine_ | sudo yum install gcc make kernel-netbook-devel | 00:54 |
| * mikeleib waves to tripzero | 00:57 | |
| timeless_mbp | someone should convert these instructions into a wiki page | 00:58 |
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| trip0 | mikeleib, hi | 00:58 |
| * timeless_mbp wonders how to 'shutdown' | 00:59 | |
| timeless_mbp | Software Update Viewer is running as a privileged user | 01:00 |
| timeless_mbp | Package management applications are security sensitive. | 01:00 |
| timeless_mbp | Running graphical applications as a privileged user should | 01:00 |
| timeless_mbp | be avoided for security reasons. | 01:00 |
| timeless_mbp | [Cancel] [Continue Anyway] | 01:00 |
| * timeless_mbp doesn't get it | 01:00 | |
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| ShadowJK | lol | 01:03 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: the design philosophy behind the UI was that it would turn your netbook into an appliance | 01:03 |
| slaine_ | So there's no reboot/shutdown buttons on the UI, you use the hardware buttons | 01:03 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: i meant in the terminal | 01:04 |
| timeless_mbp | 'shutdown' didn't work | 01:04 |
| pwnguin | halt? | 01:04 |
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| koupsa | (and after, ntfs gstreamer...) | 01:04 |
| slaine_ | koupsa: ? | 01:05 |
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| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: try | 01:05 |
| koupsa | moblin cant use ntfs | 01:05 |
| slaine_ | sudo shutdown -h now | 01:05 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: i was su | 01:06 |
| koupsa | no mp3 divx etc | 01:06 |
| timeless_mbp | and shutdown -h now did not work | 01:06 |
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| javispedro | does it use upstart? | 01:06 |
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| javispedro | either way dunno about the shutdown event's name. | 01:06 |
| slaine_ | koupsa: try my gstreamer rpms, http://slaine.org/_slaine/Software.html | 01:06 |
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| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: works for me | 01:07 |
| javispedro | i've hard powered off mine already :) | 01:07 |
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| javispedro | (was booting from cd either way so) | 01:07 |
| koupsa | thanks slaine_ i have alreeady install gsteamer ntfs ;) | 01:07 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: ok, for now, i'm trying to find the find the update manager | 01:07 |
| timeless_mbp | i think it's running in the background | 01:07 |
| timeless_mbp | but i can't find it | 01:07 |
| slaine_ | there's a daemon | 01:07 |
| slaine_ | koupsa: grand | 01:08 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: did you launch the app ? | 01:08 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: it came to me! | 01:08 |
| timeless_mbp | but i found it by searching | 01:08 |
| slaine_ | k | 01:08 |
| timeless_mbp | how do i find out when i can safely reboot? | 01:08 |
| timeless_mbp | if this stupid thing is running in the background | 01:09 |
| slaine_ | click on the Zones panel | 01:09 |
| slaine_ | if the application is running, it'll have a window in a zone | 01:09 |
| slaine_ | or alt+tab | 01:09 |
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| lbt | ruby example | 01:09 |
| lbt | hmm, I should type my headings into my editor... | 01:10 |
| timeless_mbp | it says 'no zones yet' | 01:10 |
| slaine_ | no app windows then | 01:10 |
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| slaine_ | safe to reboot | 01:10 |
| * slaine_ runs and hides | 01:11 | |
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| timeless_mbp | [root@timeless-desktop timeless]# shutdown -h now | 01:12 |
| timeless_mbp | bash: shutdown: command not found | 01:12 |
| nidO | bummer | 01:12 |
| microlith | halt? | 01:12 |
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| timeless_mbp | /sbin isn't in path | 01:12 |
| * timeless_mbp su -'s | 01:13 | |
| javispedro | something that's common in ... redhat based distros! | 01:13 |
| * javispedro hides | 01:13 | |
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| nidO | hrm. "unknown error" on trying to restore communication and calendar from backup after flashing :< | 01:14 |
| fnordian900 | its safer when you know which binaries you are invoking as root by explicit pathing | 01:14 |
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| timeless_mbp | nidO: what platform? | 01:14 |
| slaine_ | Fedora has had sbin in the patch since F11 iirc | 01:14 |
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| nidO | pr1.1.1, flash has gone fine, device booted, loaded backups, selected the backup to restore, went ok, device restarted, loaded to desktop, gave an error about communication and calendar restore | 01:15 |
| fnordian900 | haven't touched fedora since core 5 or similar | 01:15 |
| nidO | and then carried on with the app redownload fine | 01:15 |
| koupsa | maemo possible on virtualbox ? | 01:15 |
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| timeless_mbp | koupsa: Mer, sure | 01:16 |
| timeless_mbp | much much much much easier | 01:16 |
| slaine_ | often wondered that myself | 01:16 |
| koupsa | ok | 01:16 |
| timeless_mbp | http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/Installation | 01:16 |
| koupsa | thanks i RTFM | 01:16 |
| timeless_mbp | actually | 01:16 |
| timeless_mbp | that's the wrong page | 01:16 |
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| timeless_mbp | http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Releases/0.16#Installation_guide | 01:17 |
| timeless_mbp | use that | 01:17 |
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| timeless_mbp | you want mer-x86-generic-image-v0.16.vmdk.zip | 01:17 |
| koupsa | ok | 01:17 |
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| nidO | this is something I haven't noticed before either, correct me if it's obvious though | 01:19 |
| nidO | loaded a backup to restore, device went to offline mode, did it's restore, rebooted in offline mode (didnt ask for pin), finished the restore, then went back online still without asking for my sim pin | 01:19 |
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| GeneralAntilles | OK, I've setup access for most of the relevant #meego-* channels. | 01:20 |
| timeless_mbp | nidO: is this moblin or maemo? | 01:20 |
| nidO | maemo, pr1.1.1 | 01:20 |
| nidO | I do of course only now realise I have the wrong channel focused, stupid lame client :< | 01:21 |
| koupsa | only one channel on futur? | 01:22 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, so how the heck do i startx on this stupid system? | 01:22 |
| timeless_mbp | if i startx as root, the apps get pissed that they're running as root | 01:22 |
| koupsa | like in the 90's | 01:22 |
| timeless_mbp | but if i don't startx as root, it doesn't start x ! :o | 01:22 |
| koupsa | gdm | 01:23 |
| timeless_mbp | -bash: gdm: command not found | 01:23 |
| koupsa | sorry sudo yum install gdm | 01:25 |
| timeless_mbp | i don't want some random graphical windowing system | 01:25 |
| timeless_mbp | i want moblin's | 01:25 |
| koupsa | lol good luck | 01:26 |
| koupsa | :) | 01:26 |
| koupsa | on atom ? or only on vm? | 01:26 |
| timeless_mbp | vm | 01:26 |
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| koupsa | with no "startx" i have no solution | 01:27 |
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| koupsa | moblin is not usefull in vm. too slow and bug in panel | 01:28 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm just trying to see how the strings play out | 01:29 |
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| javispedro | after reading some of the Maemo Qt, I'm even starting to think that HIM doesn't suck! how's that even possible. | 01:33 |
| simula_ | javispedro... what is HIM? | 01:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | Gotta love ZDNet | 01:35 |
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| GeneralAntilles | http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=5863 | 01:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | simula, Hildon Input Method | 01:35 |
| javispedro | hildon-input-manager (aka maemo's onscreen keyboard and related techs) | 01:35 |
| javispedro | er.. method :) | 01:35 |
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| simula_ | :) | 01:35 |
| javispedro | GeneralAntilles: lol, he failed to find meego's actual home page? | 01:37 |
| auke | ZDnet. just because someone pays us. | 01:37 |
| FatalSaint | That was entertaining General | 01:37 |
| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: nice article | 01:37 |
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| GeneralAntilles | auke, do they? | 01:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | auke, I'd always figured more: ZDNet: I have a spleen and it needs venting | 01:38 |
| auke | no, that would be their slogan though, I think | 01:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Man I hate bloggers. | 01:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, did you catch rcadden's bow-out? | 01:38 |
| timeless_mbp | no? | 01:39 |
| auke | I always smell a whiff of redmond when I visit zdnet's website | 01:39 |
| simula_ | heh | 01:39 |
| timeless_mbp | url? | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless, it's a classic: http://www.symbian-guru.com/2010/02/with-meego-i-go/ | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | WTF? | 01:39 |
| javispedro | relol | 01:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | I guess he deleted it | 01:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:mJha4A56JGoJ:www.maemo-guru.com/2010/02/with-meego-i-go/+with+meego+i+go&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us | 01:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, cached. | 01:40 |
| javispedro | he already deleted the entire maemo-guru domain | 01:40 |
| javispedro | that was fast | 01:40 |
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| javispedro | s/domain/site contents/ | 01:40 |
| javispedro | what guru giveth, guru taketh. | 01:41 |
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| timeless_mbp | interesting | 01:42 |
| timeless_mbp | sorry, i don't think i've ever read him | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, just as well. | 01:42 |
| * timeless_mbp still can't figure out how to get moblin2.1 to boot safely | 01:42 | |
| pwnguin | "merge Maemo and Moblin to create MeeGo, yet *another* identity for this awkward project they've had, and revealed plans to put it on everything from tablets to phones to TVs." | 01:42 |
| pwnguin | I'm guessing it's more along the lines of not wanting to rule anything out | 01:42 |
| javispedro | hey, I would pay to see MeeGo on my tv set. | 01:43 |
| pwnguin | 'you could do ANYTHNIG with it, if you buy intel hardware!' | 01:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | javispedro, indeed. | 01:43 |
| timeless_mbp | javispedro: i've already met tv's w/ linux on them | 01:43 |
| timeless_mbp | that's hardly new | 01:43 |
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| zerojay | He was bitching about the change of name meaning he'd have to purchase a new domain and instead said "fuck it". | 01:43 |
| javispedro | timeless: I've said it once here already.. | 01:43 |
| timeless_mbp | i saw one in boston a couple of years ago | 01:43 |
| * GeneralAntilles suspects this MeeGo thing will be less beneficial for bug #630 than it first appears. | 01:43 | |
| javispedro | timeless: my tv set is tivoized. has wi-fi hardware but not the kernel driver. | 01:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, there's Linux in TiVo, too. | 01:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Who cares? | 01:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Doesn't help unless you can do cool things with it. | 01:44 |
| * timeless_mbp shrugs | 01:44 | |
| timeless_mbp | personally | 01:44 |
| timeless_mbp | all i want is stuff that works | 01:44 |
| pwnguin | my set top box runs windows ce =( | 01:44 |
| timeless_mbp | the DVR i have here does *not* work | 01:44 |
| timeless_mbp | it makes the junk i get from certain other hardware vendors seem amazing | 01:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, my definition of "works" includes being able to do things like installing additional codecs and new software. | 01:44 |
| timeless_mbp | and well... that stuff is still junk | 01:44 |
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| javispedro | but when they have the 800€ and the 1600€ models, and the only difference is that the latter has some gplv2 kernel module installed | 01:45 |
| javispedro | well. | 01:45 |
| javispedro | why bother. | 01:45 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Um, why is the meego-community list bouncing? | 01:45 |
| FatalSaint | they already switched it to smeegol GA.. you didn't get the memo? :D | 01:46 |
| * FatalSaint hides | 01:46 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Precious! | 01:46 |
| timeless_mbp | Unknown username "system" in message bus configuration file | 01:47 |
| timeless_mbp | that sounds nice | 01:47 |
| timeless_mbp | rc.vboxaddservice: line 0: daemon: command not found | 01:47 |
| timeless_mbp | that's helpful | 01:47 |
| timeless_mbp | anyone know what 'daemon' is and where i can get it for moblin? | 01:48 |
| pwnguin | screw that | 01:50 |
| pwnguin | tell me where line zero is | 01:50 |
| javispedro | :) | 01:50 |
| javispedro | sounds like someone's not expecting upstart there. | 01:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | daemon $binary | 01:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | sorry 260 | 01:51 |
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| arjan | javispedro: currently moblin does not use upstart | 01:51 |
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| javispedro | arjan: ah, but it doesn't use the usual rc scripts either? | 01:52 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: so what magic do i need to get 'daemon' so that my vbox is failing? | 01:52 |
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| timeless_mbp | s/is/stops/ | 01:52 |
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| slaine_ | hmm, what happened there me wonders | 01:52 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: also, how do i update my system from the commandline? | 01:52 |
| arjan | javispedro: we support the normal init.d scripts. | 01:53 |
| timeless_mbp | i don't like this ui i don't understand | 01:53 |
| arjan | javispedro: we just do not use many of them ourselves | 01:53 |
| slaine_ | sudo yum upgrade | 01:53 |
| timeless_mbp | No Packages marked for Update | 01:53 |
| timeless_mbp | totally unhelpful | 01:53 |
| timeless_mbp | and Really Screwy caPitaliZation | 01:53 |
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| slaine_ | is your network routing working ? | 01:54 |
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| slaine_ | or did you already apply the upgrades via the PackageKit GUI | 01:54 |
| timeless_mbp | yes networking is working | 01:54 |
| slaine_ | Does yum repolist return sane settings ? | 01:56 |
| slaine_ | s/settings/results | 01:56 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.webwizardry.net/~timeless/moblin/rc.vboxadd-service | 01:56 |
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| arjan | if [ "$system" = "redhat" ]; then | 01:57 |
| arjan | . /etc/init.d/functions | 01:57 |
| arjan | that piece (esp the sourcing) needs to be done for moblin too | 01:57 |
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| slaine_ | the witching hour approacheth, time I was off to my laba, Oíche mhaith. | 01:59 |
| timeless_mbp | do you want the redhat or suse version? | 02:00 |
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| auke | talk about a disaster of an init.d script | 02:00 |
| javispedro | the non-working lfs version! ;) | 02:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | ok, now it says it started :o | 02:02 |
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| * timeless_mbp will file a bug against vbox in a minute | 02:02 | |
| javispedro | heh, since you said it was fast before installing the tools now I am left to wonder if the patched libGL works. | 02:03 |
| pwnguin | http://serverfault.com/questions/3331/how-do-i-find-out-what-version-of-linux-is-running/3369#3369 | 02:03 |
| timeless_mbp | well, i now have a bigger screen | 02:03 |
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| timeless_mbp | ok, the gui claims no updates available | 02:07 |
| timeless_mbp | i guess that means it updated everything already | 02:07 |
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| timeless_mbp | nice | 02:09 |
| timeless_mbp | moblin2.1 shipped w/ ff3.5.3 | 02:09 |
| timeless_mbp | the update gave me 3.5.5 | 02:09 |
| timeless_mbp | too bad current is um | 02:09 |
| pwnguin | ubuntu has 3.5.7 | 02:10 |
| timeless_mbp | there's a 3.5.8 | 02:10 |
| timeless_mbp | so ubuntu isn't current | 02:10 |
| pwnguin | probably | 02:10 |
| pwnguin | ok | 02:10 |
| pwnguin | 3.5.8 dropped today | 02:11 |
| timeless_mbp | so? | 02:11 |
| pwnguin | so i probably need to run update instead of checking my existing ff about box | 02:11 |
| timeless_mbp | 3.5.5 is so old that it isn't even on the releases.mozilla.org server :) | 02:11 |
| pwnguin | yep. *my* ubuntu is out of date | 02:12 |
| pwnguin | Get:1 http://security.ubuntu.com karmic-security/main firefox-3.5-branding 3.5.8+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.9.10.1 | 02:12 |
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| timeless_mbp | nice | 02:13 |
| timeless_mbp | the preferences dialog doesn't fit in moblin | 02:13 |
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| koupsa | why not firefox 3.6 ? | 02:14 |
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| timeless_mbp | koupsa: because it's unfair to slam a linux distribution for not upgrading to a newer feature line | 02:14 |
| timeless_mbp | it's perfectly reasonable to slam it for not keeping current on security updates | 02:14 |
| timeless_mbp | (in case you're curious, maemo5 won't be remotely current until the next real update comes out) | 02:15 |
| * arjan got a new maemo5 today :) | 02:16 | |
| arjan | (my n900 told me to update) | 02:16 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.webwizardry.net/~timeless/moblin/moblin2.1-firefox3.5.5-preferences-do-not-fit.png | 02:16 |
| koupsa | is alway security update... get the source so you have not to wait to x-cmunity | 02:16 |
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| GeneralAntilles | arjan, little itty bitty update. | 02:17 |
| arjan | I did not notice anything different | 02:17 |
| arjan | so far | 02:17 |
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| GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.1.1 | 02:17 |
| koupsa | can we with maemo install tar.gz like another distro? have we the necessary dev ? (sorry poor english) | 02:18 |
| pwnguin | arjan: i think the transisitions are a bit smoother, but otherwise, nothing substiantial | 02:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody still needs to go digging to figure out what they did to apt to prevent it from installing Ovi stuff. | 02:18 |
| javispedro | koupsa: not really with the default fw. I suggest getting the SDK, or creating a chroot to install all the dev stuff. | 02:18 |
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| GeneralAntilles | koupsa, yes, tar is available. | 02:19 |
| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: iirc apt doesn't support user+password auth or something silly | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | koupsa, most people tend to package as .deb, though. | 02:19 |
| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: busybox tar | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, yeah, but it forks for this purpose. :P | 02:19 |
| timeless_mbp | if you want real tar, you have to install it :) | 02:19 |
| arjan | star? | 02:19 |
| javispedro | ah, tarball containing a binary? | 02:19 |
| javispedro | I thought source. | 02:20 |
| * arjan kinda doesn't see compiling, say, openoffice on the n900 as an idea that's viable | 02:20 | |
| pwnguin | heh | 02:20 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: you don't have 10 years of time to wait? | 02:20 |
| timeless_mbp | aww | 02:20 |
| arjan | (heck it's not really viable on a dual nehalem monster) | 02:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | arjan, Maemo users do all sorts of insane shit. | 02:20 |
| timeless_mbp | how about a beowolf cluster of n900's? | 02:21 |
| timeless_mbp | then you can distcc build openoffice :) | 02:21 |
| arjan | over 3G | 02:21 |
| pwnguin | arjan: maybe if we did some network memory and distcc and ccache | 02:21 |
| timeless_mbp | n.b. i don't think beowolf support is available | 02:21 |
| mikeleib | icecream is more better than distcc | 02:21 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: bluetooth pan (not supported) :) | 02:21 |
| arjan | wonder how many n900's pack in a cubic meter | 02:21 |
| javispedro | arjan: there are gentoo people that _built openoffice_ on the n810 | 02:21 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: w/ or w/o power cabling? | 02:21 |
| javispedro | using distcc since the n810 doesn't have enough swap ;) | 02:21 |
| arjan | javispedro: I understand "am student, got drunk, did something stupid" as concept ;) | 02:22 |
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| itdocks | arjan: maybe our friends at nokia can build such a thing :) | 02:22 |
| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: Does it matter what Nokia did to stop atp from installing Ovi stuff? It's all getting dumped anyways. | 02:22 |
| koupsa | timeless_mbp yes and not only n900... N900 and atom and x86 | 02:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, I'm just vaguely interested in seeing how the Ovi folks are going to embarrass themselves this time. | 02:22 |
| koupsa | why not? if all connected | 02:22 |
| arjan | I wonder when I can connect my n900 to that nokia windows app | 02:23 |
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| timeless_mbp | arjan: eh? | 02:23 |
| * arjan got that from his old phone and it sucked, but it was useful | 02:23 | |
| timeless_mbp | pc suite or ovi suite? | 02:23 |
| arjan | I used to have pc suite, but it told me to migrate to ovi suite | 02:23 |
| timeless_mbp | it lied :) | 02:23 |
| arjan | I guess so | 02:23 |
| timeless_mbp | ovi suite doesn't support as many products | 02:23 |
| arjan | it also uses 100Mb of memory | 02:23 |
| arjan | but that's another story | 02:23 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah, its footprint is impressive | 02:24 |
| timeless_mbp | so is its usefulness (or lack thereof) | 02:24 |
| * timeless_mbp also likes the explorability factor when no compatible devices are available [=none] | 02:24 | |
| arjan | for 100Mb of memory you;d expect something mega cool | 02:24 |
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| mikeleib | such as emacs.. zing! | 02:25 |
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| koupsa | is iptable on maemo? | 02:26 |
| timeless_mbp | well, excel included a wolf3d like game iirc | 02:26 |
| timeless_mbp | koupsa: you could ask #maemo | 02:26 |
| * timeless_mbp should really look to see if #moblin is helpful | 02:26 | |
| * arjan wonders how to run powertop on his n900 | 02:27 | |
| koupsa | right | 02:27 |
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| GeneralAntilles | arjan, should be included out of the box. | 02:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | arjan, not sure if it's on user's path. | 02:28 |
| * GeneralAntilles isn't actually sure that it wasn't dropped somewhere along the line. | 02:28 | |
| timeless_mbp | so roughly | 02:28 |
| timeless_mbp | moblin feels like OLPC done wrong | 02:28 |
| javispedro | also, sometimes I have to run it twice (powertop) | 02:28 |
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| timeless_mbp | could someone explain to me how moblin is better than olpc? :) | 02:28 |
| javispedro | the first one it crashes/quits | 02:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | arjan, if it's not installed, it should be available from http://maemo.org/development/tools/ | 02:30 |
| arjan | timeless_mbp: different audience for sure | 02:30 |
| itdocks | lmao | 02:30 |
| arjan | GeneralAntilles: I'll give it a shot.. | 02:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | I guess the moved it to, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5 | 02:30 |
| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: yeah, my old internal links to maemo.org/dev* all died | 02:30 |
| * timeless_mbp grumbles | 02:31 | |
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| timeless_mbp | are people not familiar w/ the concept of leaving redirects? | 02:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, yeah, that's what we did when we killed the old Midgard wiki. | 02:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, file a bug and make sure dneary is CCed? | 02:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or prod him directly. | 02:31 |
| timeless_mbp | hrm, ok, maybe, from work, tomrrow | 02:32 |
| ShadowJK | powertop came preinstalled, but at one point it vanished from all firmware images. There are people on the forums that tarred up the executable though... The preinstalled powertop doesn't have the fancy UI of the lesswatts.org one, but it shows much more info than the lesswatts.org powertop | 02:32 |
| javispedro | it was on pr 1.0 and 1.0.1 | 02:33 |
| javispedro | (at least) | 02:33 |
| timeless_mbp | there was a reason it was removed :( | 02:33 |
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| javispedro | I don't know if I want to know it... | 02:33 |
| itdocks | what was it | 02:34 |
| ShadowJK | it doesn't get removed with firmware upgrade, but the firmware *images* Hif you reflash) don't have it | 02:34 |
| timeless_mbp | you don't want to know | 02:34 |
| javispedro | ShadowJK: starting from pr 1.1. I never ota'd :) | 02:34 |
| javispedro | pr 1.0 has it for sure. | 02:35 |
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| ShadowJK | Some devices that came with 1.0 did not have it | 02:35 |
| javispedro | hm... | 02:35 |
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| javispedro | either way it's not something I'd want filling up rootfs. | 02:36 |
| javispedro | unless required. | 02:36 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah, realistically it should just come from extras | 02:36 |
| timeless_mbp | that'd make everyone happier | 02:36 |
| ShadowJK | it's tiny and tremendously useful | 02:36 |
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| ShadowJK | the lesswatts.org one doesn't show the power states of the omap3 parts for example | 02:38 |
| ShadowJK | powerdomains I guess the word is :) | 02:39 |
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| ShadowJK | I wish they'd forgotten to remove the Energy Profiler too | 02:41 |
| ShadowJK | :) | 02:41 |
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| badone | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo "It is hosted by the Linux Foundation on a domain name originally registered in 1999" lol | 02:50 |
| badone | a long time in the planning :) | 02:50 |
| javispedro | or a quick lookup at the "trademark drawer". | 02:50 |
| javispedro | when in times of need. | 02:50 |
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| pwnguin | im imaging a scenario | 02:51 |
| pwnguin | where nokia wants to call the merged project 'maemo' and intel wants to keep it 'moblin' | 02:52 |
| javispedro | maeblin! | 02:52 |
| javispedro | pwnguin: i don't think it wouldn't be such a bad idea. | 02:52 |
| pwnguin | some frustrated linux foundation employee threatens to use their worst case scenario name, 'meego', which they have sitting around | 02:52 |
| pwnguin | i haven't decided who called the bluff but the end result is meego.com | 02:53 |
| javispedro | heh :) | 02:53 |
| trip0 | meh | 02:54 |
| arjan | can you imagine lawyers and trademark people of two companies in one room | 02:54 |
| arjan | needing a name that all can agree with? | 02:55 |
| arjan | might as well wait for the polar ice to melt, that'll be done quicker | 02:55 |
| javispedro | yes. Though the scene has a BOFH and some bricks too. | 02:55 |
| arjan | I'm sure | 02:55 |
| trip0 | arjan: i'll drive my car more and the ice will melt faster | 02:55 |
| arjan | my personal experience; the more lawyers in the room, the more the outcome looks like hospital food | 02:56 |
| arjan | (no office to any lawyers here; I know some very good ones, and as long as they're alone, they're great ;-) | 02:56 |
| arjan | offence even | 02:56 |
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| trip0 | everyone knows that a meego is an alien being who came to earth from the planet marmazon to bestow on humans technology that we cannot yet comprehend | 02:57 |
| pwnguin | i thought it was a robot toy that corrects grammar | 02:58 |
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| trip0 | pwnguin, that's what they "want" you to believe | 02:58 |
| simula_ | no no, it's an alien fungus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migo | 02:58 |
| * arjan sends some black helicopters to trip0 | 02:59 | |
| simula_ | but i kinda actually like the name... it's simple and catchy | 02:59 |
| * arjan heads home... | 02:59 | |
| simula_ | gnight arjan | 02:59 |
| trip0 | 'copters are coming, time to go home as well... | 03:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/6229 ticket for vbox filed | 03:02 |
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| crashanddie_ | can anyone confirm this bug: If you have a meego.com account, and are subscribed to the mailing lists (at least one), go to your "My Account" page, and tell me if it says "Not subscribed" for each mailing list | 03:20 |
| javispedro | crashanddie_: meego-community Subscribe for digest (receive emails in a bundle) | 03:21 |
| javispedro | (which is true) | 03:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Unfortunately meego-community@meego.com is undeliverable. | 03:23 |
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| koupsa | good night.... | 03:30 |
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| uhsf | i'm disapointed http://notionink.in/ didn't wait for MeeGo and chose Android | 04:36 |
| ml-mobile | would you wait on an unknown? | 04:46 |
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| jacquesdupontd | hi everybody | 05:10 |
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| jaywalk | hey | 05:15 |
| bzhb | Is this the (alpha) source of the project? http://repo.meego.com/ | 05:15 |
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| jaywalk | bzhb: I dont know, I read the press release when that got out but havent had time to dig more into meego | 05:19 |
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| jaywalk | interesting to note that all rpms are for x86 though, nothing for ARM | 05:20 |
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| bzhb | I guess it is because they imported it from moblin | 05:24 |
| bzhb | the ARM version should follow | 05:24 |
| jaywalk | prolly | 05:25 |
| bzhb | hopefully | 05:25 |
| jaywalk | I came here from the maemo side, so yes, hopefully. :) | 05:26 |
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| * microlith rages at comcas^wXfinity | 05:41 | |
| GeneralAntilles | microlith, there's something we can all get behind. | 05:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | I just keep mine on a low burn 24/7. | 05:41 |
| microlith | ditto | 05:41 |
| microlith | but the past two days have been bizzare | 05:41 |
| microlith | my IP changed the other day, first time in more than a year | 05:41 |
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| microlith | but the connection has been unstable as all get out, which is rare | 05:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | microlith, clearly it's time to go trolling again, then. | 05:42 |
| microlith | clearly | 05:42 |
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| melik | does meego have an official blog? | 05:49 |
| melik | forums* | 05:49 |
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| GeneralAntilles | melik, no. | 05:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | melik, but we may do something with talk.maemo.org | 05:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | There are mailing lists. | 05:59 |
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| * rwhitby wonders what http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/ contains ... | 06:06 | |
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| Texrat | heyo | 06:07 |
| Stskeeps | moo Texrat | 06:07 |
| Texrat | moo | 06:07 |
| Texrat | wow so lively here | 06:07 |
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| Stskeeps | it grew and kept on growing | 06:07 |
| mikestaszel | meego devs, how will you turn src.rpm's into .rpm's ;) | 06:08 |
| mikestaszel | cross-compiled using what? | 06:08 |
| Stskeeps | mikestaszel: OBS is one way | 06:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yo, Texrat. | 06:10 |
| Texrat | yo ho | 06:10 |
| mikestaszel | OBS? | 06:10 |
| mikestaszel | that just rings the openSuse Build System bell in my head :P | 06:10 |
| mikestaszel | did i guess right? | 06:11 |
| Stskeeps | mikestaszel: open build service, one instance is build.opensuse.org but there'll probably be a build.meego.com | 06:11 |
| mikestaszel | woo, guessed it...thanks | 06:11 |
| Stskeeps | Texrat: so are you going to help bringing the maemo.org feel and goals into meego? :) | 06:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, what are you, a plant? :P | 06:12 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: 5am | 06:12 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 06:12 |
| Texrat | Stskeeps not by myself!!! | 06:13 |
| Stskeeps | Texrat: of course not :) | 06:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | "Here's twenty bucks to ask me favorable questions." | 06:13 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i did not know of meego until the announcement, so no :P | 06:13 |
| Texrat | lol | 06:13 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, Texrat could've paid you at any point in the last 3 days. :P | 06:13 |
| Stskeeps | i would have made a briliant plant however :P | 06:13 |
| Texrat | with what? | 06:14 |
| Texrat | my good looks? | 06:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Texrat, um . . . favors? Of some sort. . . . | 06:14 |
| Texrat | ew | 06:14 |
| Texrat | I just spent all I have on a new microphone | 06:14 |
| Texrat | a beauty | 06:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Gonna become a reporter? | 06:15 |
| Texrat | mainly for music, but also podcasting | 06:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | What do you play, anyway? | 06:15 |
| Texrat | guitar, half ass. I mostly compose electronically | 06:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | Mmm, I can get behind that. | 06:16 |
| * Texrat covers ass | 06:17 | |
| * GeneralAntilles is listening to Brian Williams on Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me. | 06:17 | |
| * Stskeeps headdesks over all the 'officially supported' meego on n900 threads | 06:18 | |
| * Texrat facepalms | 06:19 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, I think we should build a new MeeGo theme for Talk in secret and just execute a DNS change sometime next week. | 06:20 |
| pwnguin | heh | 06:21 |
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| Stskeeps | if there's a active and stable platform created by meego (with proper production QA etc) and a open attitude from nokia to have those apps and drivers updated across their nokia devices due to cross-platform-ness, who cares if it's not officially supported.. | 06:21 |
| Stskeeps | and ability to generate those images where it's hard to tell the difference between a official and non-official.. | 06:22 |
| Texrat | conspiracy talk! | 06:24 |
| Texrat | GA finally succumbed to it | 06:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | They found me out! | 06:24 |
| * GeneralAntilles runs. | 06:24 | |
| Texrat | like a girl | 06:25 |
| Texrat | flail your arms less | 06:25 |
| Texrat | ffs | 06:25 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Texrat, do you see, now, why I love geneven so much, by the way? :P | 06:26 |
| Texrat | because he's full of surprises? | 06:26 |
| Texrat | dude made me shit my pants the other day | 06:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Something like that. . . . | 06:26 |
| Texrat | "some company hire Texrat" | 06:26 |
| Texrat | fucker's tryign to kill me | 06:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | He must've been taking his meds for that one. | 06:26 |
| Texrat | I'd give geneven's left nut to find the right team podcasting solution | 06:27 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Con crashanddie into making you something | 06:28 |
| Stskeeps | Texrat: i think if the n900 discussions continue i'm going to ask for a simple statement of: Will Nokia be helping MeeGo community in order to have hardware support for it's open devices .. and would they use the cross-platform ability of MeeGo to help give their devices longer life, by publishing new/updated Nokia apps on top of most if not all MeeGo on Nokia devices | 06:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | I hear the mwkn backend would've cost 80k. | 06:28 |
| Texrat | good point Stskeeps | 06:28 |
| Stskeeps | Texrat: they don't get to weasel out of that ability if it is truely cross platform framework :) | 06:29 |
| Texrat | GeneralAntilles what I hear is that Pandora will run MeeGo | 06:29 |
| * Texrat runs | 06:29 | |
| Texrat | Stskeeps let's collab and build our own open source hardware for meeGo | 06:29 |
| Texrat | I have some 770 parts... | 06:30 |
| Texrat | an old VCR... | 06:30 |
| Stskeeps | Texrat: i think it's better to just ask the chinese and tell them to build something off a reference board | 06:30 |
| Texrat | and some PC parts | 06:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | I guess we'll see you guys back sometime in 2015? :P | 06:30 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 06:30 |
| Texrat | oh way to get behind the dream GA | 06:30 |
| Stskeeps | Texrat: and -still- we'd be shipping before the pandora | 06:30 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 06:30 |
| Texrat | ROFL! | 06:31 |
| Texrat | the eternal 2 months | 06:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | When is fanoush paying up, anyway? | 06:31 |
| Texrat | lol | 06:31 |
| Texrat | Nokia rushed N900 just to screw fanoush | 06:32 |
| * Stskeeps goes back to bed | 06:32 | |
| * Texrat pokes Stskeeps | 06:32 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Haha | 06:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | I wish fanoush had more time. | 06:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | We need to find a way to get him hired as a hackmaster for maemo.org | 06:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Er MeeGo.com (shudder) | 06:33 |
| Texrat | +1 | 06:33 |
| Texrat | +100 | 06:33 |
| Texrat | gawd that name | 06:33 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Texrat, did you catch that tombstone picture? | 06:33 |
| Texrat | yes, good stuff | 06:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | Brought a tear to my eye. | 06:34 |
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| Texrat | I heard angels | 06:34 |
| Texrat | screw it though, silly name or not, I'm gunnign for a job :D | 06:34 |
| Texrat | gunning too | 06:34 |
| Texrat | tired of babysitting software migrations | 06:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | Gonna end up working for some Chinese outfit that's going to end up shipping a complete, proprietary UX on top. :P | 06:35 |
| Texrat | Who do I have to fluff to get a meeGo.com work email address? | 06:35 |
| Texrat | ack | 06:35 |
| Texrat | sooner or later my boss is gonna catch on... | 06:36 |
| Texrat | "I have to go to Amsterdam... Santa Clara... helsinki..." | 06:36 |
| Texrat | "no, it won't be work-related" | 06:36 |
| Texrat | "yet" | 06:37 |
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| Texrat | Quim's gonna have to hire me just to keep me close and quiet | 06:37 |
| Texrat | you'd think the usb falling out fiasco would have done the trick | 06:38 |
| Texrat | "shit, get that nut back in here and shut him up!" | 06:38 |
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| Texrat | friggin pc shut down | 06:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Texrat, they know it wont work. | 06:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | So they figure there's no point wasting the money. :P | 06:47 |
| Texrat | yay n900 | 06:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Texrat, by the way, you know you can run XChat on the N900, right? :P | 06:47 |
| Texrat | feh | 06:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Slap an irssi proxy on your home machine. | 06:47 |
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| Texrat | ga you gotta admit my juggling meego dude was cool | 06:50 |
| uhsf | Texrat: how could Pandora run MeeGo? Pandora is already shipping. | 06:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | Texrat, I liked the "I surrender!" one better. | 06:51 |
| Texrat | uhsf it was a joke | 06:51 |
| uhsf | i would like pandora to merge also | 06:51 |
| Texrat | yes we can be meegodora | 06:52 |
| uhsf | and samsung to forget about bada and go MeeGo | 06:52 |
| ali1234 | or meegopee | 06:52 |
| Texrat | first product will be called explora | 06:52 |
| uhsf | and switch back the name to Maemo | 06:52 |
| ali1234 | meegodora sounds like something that would fight godzilla | 06:52 |
| Texrat | so it shall be done | 06:53 |
| Texrat | meegodora would kick gojira's fat ass | 06:53 |
| uhsf | that really all sounds foolish | 06:54 |
| Texrat | uhsf no fun on your planet? | 06:54 |
| uhsf | maemo, moblin, meego, bada | 06:54 |
| Texrat | ah | 06:54 |
| Texrat | could be worse. could be yoogo | 06:55 |
| uhsf | all sounds like these web2.0 startups that tried to be bought by google | 06:56 |
| uhsf | trying too hard to find the short letters sequence that'll please the sheep teenage crowd | 06:57 |
| Texrat | meegle! moogle | 06:58 |
| ali1234 | uhsf: have you actually tried moblin? it is more of a social networking appliance than a real distro, and aimed directly at teenagers and twenty-somethings | 06:59 |
| ali1234 | so the name fits perfectly | 06:59 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Texrat, that's not worse. | 07:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Moogle! | 07:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | I can get behind that one. | 07:00 |
| ali1234 | they already named it after an obscure character from a japanese RPG once, might as well do it again... | 07:01 |
| uhsf | Boogle! | 07:01 |
| Texrat | ali1234 are you taking lessons from guber99? :p | 07:01 |
| ali1234 | Texrat: who? | 07:01 |
| ali1234 | anyway, i;m not saying there is anything wrong with making a distro designed around social networking | 07:02 |
| Texrat | nevermind ali1234-- a tmo character | 07:03 |
| ali1234 | but any such thing is going to be used by teenagers and young people because that is who is using social networking | 07:03 |
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| Stskeeps | morning guys and girls | 09:09 |
| tekojo | Morning | 09:10 |
| Corsac | hey Stskeeps | 09:10 |
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| markey | moin | 09:17 |
| markey | geez, 356 nicks :) | 09:17 |
| Stskeeps | indeed | 09:17 |
| markey | channel about to explode, then implode, then become a tiny black hole | 09:18 |
| markey | then we're dead | 09:18 |
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| Stskeeps | #maemo didn't explode yet | 09:18 |
| Stskeeps | : | 09:18 |
| Stskeeps | P | 09:18 |
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| Stskeeps | so any news overnight? | 09:21 |
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| Stskeeps | morning david | 09:37 |
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| bebop_ | hi | 10:11 |
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| lbt | Hey Carsten | 10:15 |
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| markey | http://tinyurl.com/intelokia | 10:21 |
| markey | :) | 10:21 |
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| jaem | hmm... interesting | 10:24 |
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| markey | yup | 10:31 |
| markey | but, you could kinda see it coming | 10:31 |
| markey | I guess | 10:31 |
| markey | the Atom thing | 10:31 |
| jaem | hrm | 10:31 |
| jaem | I wonder what else may come to light in the next few weeks | 10:33 |
| jaem | I think MeeGo is a very interesting move, but after all the negative response when they went from Diablo to Fremantle, I'd have to think there are things that they haven't mentioned yet | 10:33 |
| jaem | apart from backports and such, it's a fair bit of upheaval | 10:34 |
| jaem | I think it's probably good in the long run, but I hope everything's been thought out | 10:34 |
| jaem | ... | 10:34 |
| markey | yup :) | 10:35 |
| jaem | it's sad to see all the uninformed freaking out and trolling, though | 10:36 |
| Stskeeps | people should stop freaking out and help shape things instead | 10:36 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:36 |
| * jaem agrees | 10:36 | |
| imad | ...and we are really could use all the help :-) | 10:36 |
| bzhb | I just hope the ARM port won't be too much a second citizen... | 10:37 |
| Stskeeps | bzhb: i think people will fight to the teeth to it not becoming so | 10:37 |
| imad | no need to fight really... just contribute | 10:37 |
| jaem | Stskeeps, agreed, and it looks like people will have much more of an opportunity to do so | 10:37 |
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| imad | if someone wants xyz, they should just contribute it -- so if a hardware vendor or someone is interested in seeing a specific thing supported; they should just contribute it | 10:38 |
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| Stskeeps | :nod: | 10:39 |
| Stskeeps | people are just afraid of this openness | 10:39 |
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| Stskeeps | imad: going to assume you're not imad sousou? | 10:40 |
| imad | actually I am | 10:40 |
| Stskeeps | oh, cool | 10:40 |
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| imad | thanks Stskeeps | 10:40 |
| Stskeeps | nice to meet you, if so :) i'm carsten munk, maemo.org distmaster - previously involved in OS development facilitation for the community | 10:40 |
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| imad | ahh, good to meet you | 10:41 |
| slaine_ | morning all | 10:41 |
| Stskeeps | and did the Mer project, where we tried to do many of the same things MeeGo has as goal | 10:41 |
| Stskeeps | so am naturally excited about this project :) | 10:41 |
| imad | yeah I looked at what you guys did in Mer -- very cool | 10:41 |
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| timeless_mbp | has anyone here had problems w/ their meego account? | 10:41 |
| imad | lots to learn from Mer | 10:41 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: still at it ? | 10:42 |
| jaem | imad, oh, *that's* why your nick rang a bell | 10:42 |
| slaine_ | how's your vbox install ? | 10:42 |
| jaem | nice to see you on here | 10:42 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: um | 10:42 |
| imad | thanks jaem -- been really hectic the past few days sorting things | 10:42 |
| Stskeeps | imad, and a good signal to send to hang out here as well, being one of the top guys | 10:43 |
| timeless_mbp | i had it running at 1024x whatever | 10:43 |
| jaem | imad, no doubt. As I said, I'm really impressed with the direction this is heading overall... I just hope people dont' continue to be jerks about it | 10:43 |
| imad | of-course -- | 10:43 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: i was hoping to run the gui so i was 'user' instead of 'root' | 10:43 |
| timeless_mbp | but i failed | 10:43 |
| timeless_mbp | anyway, currently my pain is that the wiki doesn't like me | 10:44 |
| slaine_ | So still needing to do the startx stuff ? | 10:44 |
| imad | i think once we sort out the initial code stuff and release it in the next two or three weeks... thing swill start looking different than now | 10:44 |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine_: i seem to | 10:44 |
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| timeless_mbp | what's the "proper" way to do it? i tried /usr/bin/moblin-dm or something like that | 10:44 |
| timeless_mbp | and it just said 'killed' | 10:44 |
| Stskeeps | imad: i think what people are wondering as well is things like scheduling of TSG meetings as well - we had a regular maemo.org sprint meeting as well so | 10:45 |
| Stskeeps | it's every two weeks, but when does it start and where ;) | 10:45 |
| imad | definetly will start it next week... i'll make sure to announce these here | 10:45 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: I didn't look any further into it after you got passed the virtual terminal part. I'll see if I can have a poke around later today | 10:45 |
| Stskeeps | thanks | 10:45 |
| jaem | imad, most of the ranting I've seen was uninformed - did they even *read* the FAQs?! | 10:46 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: ok | 10:46 |
| imad | i hope people would cut us some slack the firt few things as we get things going | 10:46 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: anyway, i have vbox guest additions working and x11 works | 10:46 |
| timeless_mbp | but i still don't have the proper launch sequence | 10:46 |
| Stskeeps | imad: i can definately not recommend trying to read talk.maemo.org then :) | 10:46 |
| slaine_ | yeah, that's what I'll look at later, see if we can get that moving | 10:46 |
| imad | i read the logs -- too bad I wasnt here for the fun :-) | 10:46 |
| imad | was stuck in Barcelona | 10:46 |
| jaem | imad, it's the Internet - people are stupid | 10:47 |
| jaem | or rather, the people who are stupid can all get together | 10:47 |
| jaem | I'm pretty sure it will all blow over in time | 10:47 |
| slaine_ | typical post being "Hi, I don't know anything about this, but here's my 2cents worth" | 10:47 |
| jaem | most of the people I've seen making noise are newbies anyway | 10:47 |
| jaem | slaine_, more like $2 | 10:47 |
| lbt | hi imad | 10:47 |
| slaine_ | lol, yes true, they didn't hold back | 10:48 |
| Stskeeps | jaem: the challenge is channeling that energy into something productive. | 10:48 |
| imad | i know - it was kind of funny that a lot of these guys never contributed a line of code to maemo or moblin | 10:48 |
| jaem | Stskeeps, anything in particular? | 10:48 |
| imad | hi lbt | 10:48 |
| Stskeeps | jaem: turning their arguments on them and asking to help out :) | 10:48 |
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| jaem | imad, how much of Maemo is actually /in/ MeeGo? The marketing-spiel didn't mention much more than Qt | 10:48 |
| jaem | if you can tell me, that is | 10:49 |
| Stskeeps | jaem: i have difficulties describing what Maemo actually is :P | 10:49 |
| imad | a lot of maemo will be in MeeGo -- not just QT | 10:49 |
| imad | the Maemo gues did a lot of terrific work | 10:49 |
| imad | guys | 10:49 |
| lbt | I take it you're seeing the mailing list discussions too? Especially the 'upstream' and collaboration area? | 10:49 |
| jaem | imad, that's good. it was a bit vague, and some people seemed to think that Maemo was just being scrapped, with a bits tacked onto Moblin | 10:49 |
| jaem | I didn't think so, but I wasn't sure what the deal was | 10:50 |
| imad | the problem is that a lot this will get sorted out publicly -- we've been careful not to make all the decisions upfront for the obvious openness reasons... so we really started with few key things that we had to have | 10:50 |
| lbt | I think those of us who don't care about a file format *do* care about the "MeeGo is just a toy OS for phones - why would you need a full OS on there?" kinda thinking | 10:51 |
| imad | things that would get us to bring up the base OS, and a reasonable application development env | 10:51 |
| jaem | makes sense | 10:51 |
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| jaem | personally, I'm waiting for more information to be released before making any major judgements, but I think the potential is great | 10:52 |
| jaem | and as for Openness, it sounds like a big move | 10:52 |
| jaem | when you guys say that the base system is going to be completely Open Source, I would presume some drivers still won't be? Or are you planning on leaning on the manufacturers a bit? | 10:53 |
| imad | yeah... it will come together... we chose to do it openly and that makes it double hard... | 10:53 |
| jaem | no doubt, but it's admirable | 10:53 |
| * timeless_mbp sighs | 10:53 | |
| Stskeeps | jaem: yeah.. waiting for source and participating in discussions | 10:53 |
| imad | kernel drivers will be all open -- at least we are making this a requirement for now | 10:53 |
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| jaem | \o/ | 10:53 |
| kad | imad: what about gl drivers, e.g. for the chip on nokia netbooks ? | 10:54 |
| lbt | imad: I'd be interested on your thoughts on Moblin having no upstream distro? Not reusing all that inter-package integration QA work... | 10:54 |
| imad | there will be some userland driver (probably one) with one of the gfx vendors who we are unable to push over yet | 10:54 |
| Stskeeps | userland is not as limiting as kernel drivers though (see our VSC proposal) :P | 10:54 |
| imad | the upstream distro was a really hard decision to make a year or so ago | 10:55 |
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| imad | we started with an upstream... but we started diverging given what we really need to do for devices. | 10:55 |
| kad | lbt: having no upstream distro is sometimes better. you have faster adoption pace from real upstreams like gnome, kde, ... | 10:55 |
| jaem | apparently most of the trolls haven't figured out the "no upstream" part | 10:55 |
| jaem | or they just don't care, being trolls | 10:55 |
| lbt | kad, I see that - but I worry about the lack of OSS ecosystem | 10:55 |
| imad | so ath that point, we decided it would be far cleaner to be our own upstream | 10:56 |
| kad | lbt: like what ? | 10:56 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:56 |
| imad | morning | 10:56 |
| jaem | Jaffa, hi | 10:56 |
| lbt | like the 20K packages in Debian | 10:56 |
| lbt | or similar in other distros | 10:56 |
| lbt | as Jaffa said | 10:56 |
| kad | lbt: amount doesn't matter if quality is not good :) | 10:56 |
| lbt | when a dev wants a library and imports the dependencies | 10:56 |
| imad | dont get me wrong... all these distros are great -- Debian, Fedora, OpenSuSE... but all target different usage models | 10:57 |
| kad | lbt: you can check with many active users, how many of those 20k is really used. | 10:57 |
| lbt | it makes life hard | 10:57 |
| imad | we wanted something that is specific to devices ranging from netbooks to handsets to TVs, etc... | 10:57 |
| lbt | kad agreed - and that's part of the approach | 10:57 |
| lbt | but having them to call upon is valuable | 10:57 |
| lbt | imad: different usage models? | 10:57 |
| kad | lbt: I yesterday had a long discussin with one of geeks about Debian and Ubuntu - and his main complain about ubuntu was about packages which comes from Debian and how badly it works :) | 10:58 |
| imad | I mean... we wanted something that is specific to the needs of what we are trying to do | 10:58 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: 'mobile usage' | 10:58 |
| slaine_ | Don't talk to me about TV's | 10:58 |
| imad | :-) | 10:58 |
| kad | slaine_: why ? :) | 10:58 |
| slaine_ | bloody Philips and their broken SerialXpress protocol | 10:58 |
| jaem | imad, was RPM a specific design choice, or just a carry-over from Mobline? | 10:58 |
| jaem | Moblin* | 10:59 |
| Stskeeps | jaem: general consensus is that it is because there's a full toolchain (builder, image builder, qa, etc) already set up around it | 10:59 |
| Stskeeps | and we don't need to reinvent it | 10:59 |
| lbt | I do agree with the mobile usage of course - but I think a lot of this is about libraries vs ui | 10:59 |
| jaem | Stskeeps, where? | 10:59 |
| imad | there was many factors of how we selected the key things -- meaning distro infrastrcuture, packaging toolkit | 10:59 |
| Stskeeps | jaem: well, it is lost in all the noise, but this was the response here | 10:59 |
| slaine_ | I've just found out that Get responses are not atomic and are infact overwritten by the TV if the user happens to be interacting with the remote at the same time | 10:59 |
| slaine_ | grrrrr | 10:59 |
| jaem | slaine_, yikes | 11:00 |
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| slaine_ | broken by design | 11:00 |
| lbt | and imad, having a relationship with an upstream may still mean repackaging | 11:00 |
| imad | the packaging itself wasn;t really that important -- what was important the infrastrcuture that we could start with | 11:00 |
| lbt | but syncing on versions | 11:00 |
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| lbt | and making the autopackaging use the 'upstream distro' and not the pristine source | 11:01 |
| kad | lbt: syncing on versions slowdowns development. look at ubuntu and debian. | 11:01 |
| imad | well the problem with packaging vs upstream is that they are not consistent anyway... so if you look at the RPM distros... none of them are compatible with each other... they just HAPPEN to use a specific packaging format -- similar with the DEB based | 11:01 |
| Stskeeps | lbt, i saw the current repo set the other day.. there's still a lot of room for policy changes and fixes to help things | 11:01 |
| slaine_ | imad, Do you have any contact details I could use how to become an OSV of Moblin/MeeGo ? | 11:01 |
| slaine_ | I've been trying for a very, very long time and gotten nowhere | 11:01 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: I haven't seen the repo set | 11:02 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: sec | 11:02 |
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| imad | what do you mean...becoming an OSV? | 11:02 |
| lbt | imad: indeed - but 2 upstreams are more consistent than 2000 original tarballs | 11:02 |
| Stskeeps | http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/ | 11:02 |
| kad | lbt: it's easier to track 2000 original tarballs than sometimes fight with community of upstream distro for minor need changes | 11:03 |
| lbt | if you fight then submit the change upstream to original | 11:04 |
| lbt | that problem you face anyway | 11:04 |
| lbt | if original source won't accept you maintain a patch | 11:04 |
| lbt | same as now | 11:04 |
| lbt | however, much of the time you'd offload the patch maint to upstream distro | 11:05 |
| imad | we're about to make the initial source tree available, just waiting mostly on things that we need to do including making the full build infrastrcuture also openlll so once that is all there... anyone can take it and create a commercial distro out of it | 11:05 |
| kad | lbt: in case of dpkg or apt for example, debian is the upsream. there is no upper way to escalate. | 11:06 |
| kad | lbt: and this is one of examples. | 11:06 |
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| lbt | re: dpkg/apt decision is made : np | 11:06 |
| Stskeeps | the discussion is just to not shoot ourselves too much in the foot :) | 11:06 |
| lbt | yes | 11:06 |
| kad | lbt: well, it was not about re-open holly war, but just to provide example :) | 11:07 |
| lbt | (kad, same arg for any app developed by a distro : zypper, yum etc) | 11:07 |
| lbt | We don't need to marry an upstream though | 11:07 |
| lbt | just stalk them ;) | 11:07 |
| lbt | we can be the creepy distro :D | 11:07 |
| imad | at some point, we need to get to one packaging system in Linux -- maybe we can call it DPM | 11:08 |
| jaem | Stskeeps, how many levels of "shot" are there in the foot-gun you're using, then? | 11:08 |
| lbt | imad: I was hoping that we could use an open OBS as an initial touch point | 11:08 |
| Stskeeps | jaem: kill off everything in packaging not relevant to mobile usage. | 11:08 |
| jaem | lbt, what? You don't already stalk people through commit logs? XD | 11:08 |
| lbt | for multi distros | 11:08 |
| lbt | jaem: heh | 11:08 |
| kad | lbt: I agree that zypper is nowdays somehow comparable to dpkg. but in case yum - Sith is alsmost independed from distro, as there are many contributing distro/customers | 11:08 |
| Stskeeps | http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000253.html , jaem (and others willing to read my "don't shoot yourself in the foot" distro) | 11:08 |
| Stskeeps | er, suggestion | 11:09 |
| lbt | kad: too specific for ignorant old me | 11:09 |
| kad | lbt: :) | 11:09 |
| jaem | Stskeeps, I skimmed it, but it makes sense | 11:09 |
| jaem | what /is/ the build system that's being used? | 11:09 |
| imad | og guys -- have to go to sleep now -- just arrived back from Europe... will talk to you tomorrow | 11:09 |
| lbt | imad: I think Stskeeps has developed what I was trying to get at there | 11:09 |
| jaem | imad, cheers, thanks | 11:10 |
| lbt | good to see you here imad - thanks | 11:10 |
| imad | cheers@! | 11:10 |
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| ScriptRipper | good morning | 11:11 |
| lbt | moin SR | 11:11 |
| ScriptRipper | moin david | 11:11 |
| Stskeeps | morn SR, nice to see you here too :) | 11:11 |
| jku_ | jaem, obs (and no, it's not opened yet) | 11:11 |
| ScriptRipper | moin carsten, nice to meet you | 11:11 |
| lbt | so kad how do we grow the ecosystem around MeeGo in the most efficient manner? | 11:12 |
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| Stskeeps | ScriptRipper: and very happy to see OBS used in all this | 11:13 |
| ScriptRipper | +1 | 11:13 |
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| ScriptRipper | i am collecting new features we might need inside BS to make it more convinient | 11:15 |
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| ScriptRipper | i read that an SDK is highly on the prio list | 11:19 |
| kad | lbt: what exactly you mean by ecosystem ? external development ? contributions to distro ? something else ? | 11:20 |
| ScriptRipper | at the moment, webpages show only QT creator | 11:20 |
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| kad | ScriptRipper: what do you mean by SDK in case of distros like Debian/Fedora/Ubuntu/etc ? | 11:20 |
| chakie_work | ScriptRipper: OBS? | 11:21 |
| lbt | kad: I feel that the repo that makes up 'core' Moblin is tiny by comparison to most distros | 11:21 |
| slaine_ | its that way by design though | 11:21 |
| ScriptRipper | OBS | 11:21 |
| lbt | and for a developer used to normal distros looking to pull in a reusable library... | 11:21 |
| lbt | that's a problem | 11:21 |
| slaine_ | This isn't a normal distro though | 11:22 |
| lbt | slaine_: no, it's that way by economic neccesity | 11:22 |
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| kad | lbt: this core of the distro is enough to build most usable software. if somebody want something more, available in other distro - it's not hard to became maintainer and help distro :) | 11:22 |
| slaine_ | What we need is an extra's type repo | 11:22 |
| ScriptRipper | i mean: a way to run stuff inside a virtual machine like OBS does and connecting to tools | 11:22 |
| lbt | sec - phone - kad, will reply | 11:22 |
| ScriptRipper | outside of the virtual machine | 11:22 |
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| kad | ScriptRipper: I'm maybe not representative developer, but I'd prefer to build in high power build system and then install from repo packages rather than VMs | 11:24 |
| Jaffa | kad: Err, it *is* hard if high-end app developers have been enticed to the platform and they find there's no easy way of communicating with an LDAP server or posting to Twitter. They may not even *know* that a different repo's package can be repackaged, let alone how to do it. Having a dedicated team of people who respond to app author's saying "I want to post a message to Twitter from Python, how do I do it?" and they respond "We've just created python-twitt | 11:24 |
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| kad | lbt: my battery running out, so maybe rejoin irc in ~1h. | 11:25 |
| ScriptRipper | kad: OBS uses a virtual machine *to build* | 11:25 |
| Jaffa | ScriptRipper: VMs aren't a very enticing option for attracting developers. People expect to be able to do cross-platform, cross-compiling build and debug without having to install a VM. | 11:25 |
| kad | ScriptRipper: not always, it's fine with chroots. | 11:26 |
| ScriptRipper | yes | 11:26 |
| jaem | Jaffa, well, the Maemo SDK VM is convenient - if I could set up SBox and friends natively on my Arch box, I'd be happy | 11:26 |
| Jaffa | MeeGo app developers WILL NOT solely be running Linux. | 11:26 |
| jaem | but the VM makes it work nicely | 11:26 |
| ScriptRipper | I know. I wrote parts of OBS | 11:26 |
| jaem | Jaffa, I take your point, though | 11:26 |
| ScriptRipper | I am just loudly thinking about | 11:26 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: But Moblin people do not know that yet ;) | 11:26 |
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| ScriptRipper | how to better instrument the OBS virtual machines / chroot | 11:27 |
| Jaffa | jaem: It's really not convenient. It's bloated, it's another OS to maintain, integration into the tools and editors that a developers like on their platform of choice is poor. | 11:27 |
| jaem | ScriptRipper, if you think more quietly, your computer won't hear you :O | 11:27 |
| jaem | Jaffa, I meant for setup, as compared to the current Maemo alternative | 11:27 |
| kad | jaem: luckily, you wouldn't need scratchbox anymore :) | 11:27 |
| jaem | I agree that it's far from ideal | 11:27 |
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| Jaffa | jaem: Will, yes - if your only alternative is Scratchbox on a Linux box having a VM is better ;-) | 11:27 |
| jaem | kad, I've never developed with OBS... what's the workflow when testing locally? | 11:28 |
| Jaffa | Something *like* MADDE (i.e. with its requirements and goals) is essential to attracting a wide range of developers. | 11:28 |
| slaine_ | that's something I wondered too | 11:28 |
| slaine_ | git checkout, make an rpm ????? | 11:28 |
| kad | Jaffa: I can use my TextMate, osc client, rpm on my mac os :) just using build on servers, not locally. | 11:28 |
| ScriptRipper | you can use the local command line client to run a build also on the local machine | 11:28 |
| ScriptRipper | it then sets up chroot/kvm/XEN on the local machine | 11:29 |
| ScriptRipper | instead of the server | 11:29 |
| kad | jaem: again, I might be not representative developer in a scence. my habbits is to make patch, update spec, commit to obs, wait it build, install package from repo on target hw. | 11:29 |
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| ScriptRipper | Jaffa: what is MADDE ? | 11:30 |
| Jaffa | kad: and if I want to do dev on the train? Or abroad? Or anywhere without a data connection? ;-) | 11:30 |
| Jaffa | ScriptRipper: http://wiki.maemo.org/MADDE | 11:30 |
| * kad running out of battery on laptop. let's speak a bit later. | 11:30 | |
| jaem | kad, sure | 11:31 |
| kad | Jaffa: in train, for supplying patch is enough to have even costy gprs :). without data connection - use vmware with simple linux install and chroots. no problem with that. | 11:31 |
| Jaffa | ScriptRipper: That's cool. Is it *theoretically* possible for the osc to set up a VM for the building on Windows? | 11:31 |
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| ScriptRipper | yes it is | 11:32 |
| Jaffa | kad: Sorry, but you're wrong. MeeGo has to entice developers who are also looking at iPhone, webOS and Android - and the development tools are something that Maemo's taken 5 years to even get *close* to getting right. | 11:32 |
| hrw | morning | 11:32 |
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| ScriptRipper | but OBS currently does not support windows package install | 11:33 |
| Jaffa | kad: Saying "you have to develop in a mindset of a 1970s timeshare mainframe" isn't going to cut it. | 11:33 |
| Jaffa | ScriptRipper: Or, presumably, OS X? | 11:33 |
| Jaffa | ScriptRipper: Although that might be easier as a next step. | 11:33 |
| ScriptRipper | so you would need some prepackaged .rpm or .deb packages for this target OS | 11:33 |
| ScriptRipper | same for Solaris or OS X | 11:34 |
| ScriptRipper | or other BSD like OSes | 11:34 |
| ScriptRipper | I think there is a .deb based solaris version, that should work anyway then | 11:34 |
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| RST38h | pkg_add! | 11:35 |
| ScriptRipper | we had more than once thought about adding other package formats to OBS also | 11:35 |
| ScriptRipper | like Solaris pkg format or OpenEmbedded and the like | 11:36 |
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| RST38h | Sorry for a really stupid question but what is OBS? | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: a builder system or a really clever way to construct chroots. | 11:36 |
| RST38h | Or, to make things simpler, can I simply write a Makefile and type "make" to compile applicaiton under meego? | 11:36 |
| RST38h | Sts: so OBS ~= Scratchbox? | 11:37 |
| ScriptRipper | OBS: http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service | 11:37 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: sortof, except saner. the base user mode emulation just works. and then you can drop in x86 packages on top to cross-compile fast. | 11:37 |
| ScriptRipper | and: OBS can do things like scratchbox can do for cross building | 11:37 |
| RST38h | Yes, I have seen this link yesterday but could not figure out what it means for a normal app developer | 11:37 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: it's comparable to native building. | 11:37 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Ah, ok | 11:38 |
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| X-Fade | Hmm is there a problem with the MeeGo lists? | 11:39 |
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| RST38h | X-Fade: Yes, they are not viewable on the web =) | 11:41 |
| Stskeeps | lists.meego.com? :P | 11:42 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Well, they are. But don't update anymore. | 11:42 |
| RST38h | ah cool | 11:42 |
| X-Fade | Archives don't update and mail doesn't seem to get through. | 11:42 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: That openSUSE page about OBS seems to imply that it is kinda autobuilder, i.e. you cannot build locally with it. Is that true? | 11:43 |
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| ScriptRipper | you can build also locally | 11:45 |
| ScriptRipper | its both: an autobuilder and local build | 11:45 |
| mece | oh we're discussing meego repositories I'm guessing. Haven't been following. OBS seems pretty cool actually. | 11:46 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: you can build with it locally too | 11:46 |
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| feedcrunch | hi all, i have question regarding MeeGo and python. Will it be possible to run my python+QT applicatoin on MeeGo? | 11:48 |
| ScriptRipper | there seem to have been many discussions about .deb vs .rpm the last days | 11:48 |
| ScriptRipper | OBS can do both | 11:48 |
| jaem | feedcrunch, well, it's Open Source, so yes | 11:48 |
| ScriptRipper | even in one package source | 11:48 |
| ScriptRipper | if you package it correctly | 11:49 |
| jaem | feedcrunch, as to whether it will work out of the box, you'd have to ask someone else, but I'd expect so | 11:49 |
| RST38h | Well, it only has to do one that will be used by the OS | 11:49 |
| villemv | Nokia is doing PySide themselves | 11:49 |
| mece | villemv, very nice! | 11:49 |
| villemv | so it's slightly more than "community supported" | 11:49 |
| villemv | the fact that it uses underlying "fully supported" Qt itself guarantees the native look as well | 11:51 |
| feedcrunch | jaem: tanks for the answer! Yes it would be possible, but i wonder if there will be a "official" repository by the community. Like Extras in maemo where you can install all the python-dependencies and so forth. | 11:51 |
| lcuk | mornin meego | 11:51 |
| lcuk | \o | 11:51 |
| villemv | feedcrunch: don't worry about it, of course there will be full python experience | 11:51 |
| leinir | lcuk: Wooh! :) | 11:51 |
| mece | lcuk, 'sup | 11:51 |
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| feedcrunch | villemv: hehe, thanks, now i feel a lot better, Back to programming! :) | 11:51 |
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| slaine_ | morning lcuk | 11:57 |
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| Hukka | Just watched a video on the new LG phone. I'm a bit worried that they have their completely own UI :/ | 12:03 |
| villemv | have the url to vid handy Hukka? | 12:04 |
| Hukka | Sorry, not anymore | 12:04 |
| Hukka | But it's trivial to google | 12:04 |
| Hukka | "meego phone" | 12:04 |
| villemv | ya, | 12:04 |
| leinir | It's basically the same UI they've got on the Arena and like devices... | 12:04 |
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| Hukka | Exactly | 12:04 |
| Hukka | I also watched a bit on the S-class | 12:04 |
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| Hukka | But what I'm wondering is that if the OS in that phone is actually OSS, or interchangable | 12:05 |
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| Hukka | Will there be even Qt? | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | hence the need for things like our proposed VSC | 12:05 |
| leinir | It's LG, so it's likely locked so far down you can't get to it | 12:05 |
| leinir | *nods* Indeed | 12:05 |
| Hukka | The meego arch images tell us about the split UI from Maemo and from Moblin, but nothing about the vendors actually ignoring both... | 12:05 |
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| villemv | LG had no prior linux phones? so I suppose it has to have at least moblin ui | 12:06 |
| Hukka | Since if that's whats going to happen, then it doesn't really matter at all how open Meego supposedly is | 12:06 |
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| villemv | MeeGo is open enough so that you can make a locked phone with it ;-) | 12:07 |
| Naranek_ | the LG GW990 seems really promising, but I have no previous experience with LG. Is it really possible that even though it runs meego, it's still locked down? | 12:07 |
| Stskeeps | Vendor social contract: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000036.html | 12:07 |
| villemv | they could prevent installing new stuff on it | 12:07 |
| Hukka | Stskeeps: Yeah, I know | 12:07 |
| villemv | but then, the "meego" marketing moniker would be BS | 12:07 |
| Naranek_ | for me that kind of defeats the purpose of running linux :) | 12:07 |
| leinir | Hukka: There's 390 people in here, i'm sure one or two missed it ;) | 12:08 |
| Hukka | Stskeeps: But since the phone is already running the OS in the expos, there's no stopping them now | 12:08 |
| villemv | why would they lock it down? | 12:08 |
| villemv | operators? | 12:08 |
| Stskeeps | Hukka: of course | 12:08 |
| Hukka | villemv: Old school thinking | 12:08 |
| Hukka | "Of course we lock it, it's OURS" | 12:09 |
| mece | villemv, also, support. Less people screw up their devices. | 12:09 |
| Naranek_ | the same reasons everybody locks their devices down | 12:09 |
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| mece | villemv, exactly. | 12:09 |
| mece | err Naranek_, exactly | 12:09 |
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| villemv | old linux devices were locked down because the native platform was immature, apple & google lock down because of app store & drm... | 12:12 |
| villemv | why LG? | 12:12 |
| lbt | jaem_away: ping me re local OBS workflow | 12:12 |
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| villemv | lbt: you might want to post the local OBS workflow somehere if you are making a novel out of it | 12:13 |
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| lbt | Jaffa: you need to learn more about OBS :) it's not quite what you think it is | 12:13 |
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| lbt | villemv: I'd like to : http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build is a good start | 12:13 |
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| hrw | uf... maemo-dev and meego-dev marked as read | 12:21 |
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| slaine_ | Can you point local OBS's build script at a directory of src rpms ? | 12:31 |
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| Stskeeps | i do that with dscs often, but one at a time | 12:32 |
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| Mirv | if you have that bunch of src rpm:s in your so-called home project of obs, you can do osc build for all of those | 12:33 |
| slaine_ | Was trying to follow this, but didn't get very far | 12:35 |
| slaine_ | http://moblin.org/documentation/building-moblin-packages-natively | 12:35 |
| slaine_ | just complains that it can't find the spec files | 12:35 |
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| megabast | hi, is there something to install to use web browser on maemo 5 sdk (on maemo interface) | 12:36 |
| megabast | when I click on web browser window, it happens nothing | 12:37 |
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| pan1nx | megabast, do you have the nokia binaries installed? | 12:47 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: re-reading up | 12:49 |
| megabast | pan1nx: I installed openVMTools and guestadditions | 12:49 |
| megabast | I am in the SDK virtual machine | 12:49 |
| lbt | slaine_: try the Mer build link to get started with OBS | 12:49 |
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| slaine_ | lbt, I'll book mark it. I'm too swamped at the moment to lilkely get back to it shortly | 12:50 |
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| lbt | sure - it's an alternative tutorial that may help you debug build fails - uses deb but as you'd see that's not relevant | 12:51 |
| slaine_ | yup, defo interested | 12:51 |
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| slaine_ | I've just got loads of meetings today and some new hardware I need to check out before I'd get time to look at it yet | 12:52 |
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| slaine_ | I literally spent 5 mins getting the build script installed and ran it | 12:52 |
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| pan1nx | megabast, wait, i check it on my sb | 12:57 |
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| koupsa | meego is a ugly name | 13:03 |
| mece | well put :) | 13:03 |
| Stskeeps | we can all agree on that, but let's put something cool behind it? | 13:03 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:03 |
| koupsa | maybe | 13:03 |
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| Stskeeps | it does have benefits | 13:04 |
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| w00t | even if it does make you think of it as jar jar binks' distro | 13:05 |
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| * kad is back | 13:08 | |
| Stskeeps | wb | 13:09 |
| dl9pf | hi all ! | 13:09 |
| kad | Jaffa: recapturing discussion. I said only about myself. I'm not a typical developer, and for me vim+chroot is more than enough. in worst scenario VM. | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: in most circumstances, people will be developing x86 natively | 13:11 |
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| kad | Jaffa: iPhone development requires Xcode, and thus, it simplifies a lot of thing - you have there cross gcc, custom binary representation format, so in that scenario you don't really care what you have as host OS. | 13:12 |
| kad | Jaffa: in case of Linux development, the biggest problem of crosscompiling is that many programs in their Makefiles using binaries which are just built. | 13:13 |
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| kad | Jaffa: and this implies that you either need to be in VM, or natively do build on target HW, or use some crunches like SB. | 13:13 |
| Naranek | google isn't that cool name either, but see what they've accomplished :) | 13:14 |
| robsta | kad: "many programs" ? | 13:14 |
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| kad | robsta: sorry for spelling errors, english is not my native language :) | 13:15 |
| robsta | kad: that's not what i mean, it's just not so many | 13:15 |
| kad | robsta: well, it's enough to make distro builder'ss life horrible. | 13:15 |
| robsta | kad: maybe if you're building a general purpose distro who's goal is to have as many packages as possible | 13:16 |
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| kad | robsta: I don't recall exact stats, but few years ago some of our collegues were trying to participate in cross-deb activities. It was quite a lot of packges which were requiring modifications for compile case where host arch != dest arch | 13:17 |
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| jumpula | it's not a problem of deb, it's rather a problem of the userland software itself | 13:19 |
| jumpula | only few pieces can be properly cross compiled | 13:19 |
| kad | robsta: it might be some generic stuff (like, let me just pointing randomly somewhere without evidences, TeX) that you need to build your good app, but would require some tricks if you try to cross-compile it. | 13:19 |
| jumpula | thus leaving one in a situation of either extensively patching the rest or using sb or somesuch to circumvent the issue | 13:19 |
| robsta | kad: most of the software stack in meego comes from freedesktop and other sane places and is already being used in embedded development, and cross compiled on a daily basis | 13:19 |
| kad | jumpula: agree, it's all about majority of currently available open source soft. | 13:20 |
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| kad | robsta: I'm not argueing with that ;) | 13:20 |
| robsta | kad: hopefully you also agree that the majority of available open source software is irrelevant to meego | 13:21 |
| kad | robsta: I'm just saying that there exceptions, and as Jussi mentioned above, you either spending time patching and workarrounding, or use something to emulate "native" build | 13:21 |
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| Stskeeps | er, why not look at how insanely cool OBS does _cross? :P | 13:22 |
| MelisU | Hello community! I want a high level compiled language for Qt. Any suggestions? (GTK had Vala, Genie and Mono) | 13:22 |
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| kad | Stskeeps: I've looked. :) but initial question was from Jaffa "how to use it on train with Windows laptop" | 13:22 |
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| kad | robsta: well, I personaly use maybe 40% of packages available in Fedora repos. And for me content of MeeGo is more than enough. If I need something, I would be able to build it myself, as majority of build dependencies are already there. | 13:24 |
| kad | robsta: but there are people who's only criteria to be "cool distro" is to be able to say "my distro has 20k packages". | 13:24 |
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| Stskeeps | kad: yes, there's an area in local building that needed improvement | 13:25 |
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| Stskeeps | kad: but it isn't impossible. | 13:25 |
| kad | Stskeeps: under windows ? I've looked into code of "build", but kind of bit sceptical that it would work correctly on non-POSIX OS. | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | kad: under windows is more difficult. it'd probably be MADDE like. | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | windows situation right now is horrid anyway | 13:27 |
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| kad | Stskeeps: I haven't looked at MADDE, so no opinions :) | 13:30 |
| Stskeeps | worth a try, kinda cool for what it does | 13:30 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: "Windows situation [for Maemo development] right now is horrid anyway" | 13:30 |
| Stskeeps | except for MADDE, that is | 13:31 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Indeed. | 13:31 |
| kad | Stskeeps: by brief look, just on install page, I'd be very fear to install it on my systems. | 13:31 |
| Stskeeps | kad: it didn't kill mine. | 13:31 |
| Stskeeps | it's just very large. | 13:31 |
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| kad | Stskeeps: well, it doesn't kill, but I fear of amount of unpredictable hacks that those installers do in the system during installation. | 13:32 |
| Stskeeps | kad: technically it's a mingw32 system | 13:32 |
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| kad | Stskeeps: I'm speaking about darwin or linux installers. I don't have windows :) | 13:32 |
| niqt | to start developmen i need opensuse or fedora? | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | kad: ah | 13:33 |
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| kad | niqt: any linux in my opinion. OBS client is available for major linux distros, and you can have chroot anywhere if needed. | 13:34 |
| niqt | good | 13:34 |
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| niqt | to begin follw this link http://wiki.meego.com/Build_System? | 13:35 |
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| J_P | Hi all, just a very important question: MeeGo will use apt-get/.deb right? | 13:39 |
| Stskeeps | sorry to disappoint you - now, do you want the organisational reason? | 13:39 |
| Stskeeps | it uses rpm, but not sure about apt-get style setrup | 13:39 |
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| J_P | Stskeeps: wow. Why rpm? lsb? | 13:40 |
| townxelliot | I'm going to attempt to fix some issues with the wiki logins - anyone working on it right now? shouldn't need a restart, but may invalidate existing cookies briefly | 13:41 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: actually, it's due to what tools in place. moblin brings to the table a build service (this can handle debs though, but keep listening), image builders, repositories, QA, and many other state of the art tools | 13:41 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: these are all centered around RPM. | 13:42 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: if .deb was to be adapted, all those tools would have to be rewritten to fit deb, as it isn't trivial to take debian.org tools, since they are, well, tied to debian.org | 13:42 |
| Stskeeps | also, the benefit of integration | 13:43 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: i am personall a .deb fan, but i think this is a compelling reason for the rpm choice. | 13:44 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: I don't know if you are inside MeeGo team, If yes, please transmit my message: Not use .deb will be a bigger mistake. | 13:45 |
| slaine_ | oh ffs, not this conversation again | 13:45 |
| slaine_ | it's been like ground hog day, everyday this week | 13:45 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: i'm not, but i ask you to read my argumentation | 13:45 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: if you aren't willing to listen to other people's views, it isn't a very constructive conversation | 13:46 |
| AVee | Something different then, did anyone manage to subscribe to the meego-community list? | 13:46 |
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| lbt | slaine_: like it or not we need to do this with all newcomers | 13:46 |
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| lbt | if you want to help then make a wiki page | 13:47 |
| slaine_ | We should just point them to the FAQ at this stage though | 13:47 |
| Stskeeps | slaine_: i think once tools are up and running and people see how smooth things run, it will be more and more difficult for them to argue. | 13:47 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: your argumentation is not valid. Because MeeGo will start a new modification is world for many years.. and is better a effort now (to use deb) than a not perfect system in the future | 13:47 |
| lbt | ~whyrpm | 13:47 |
| lbt | oh look - no infobot :) | 13:47 |
| maclaver | Avee: I subscribed, did not get any mails yet. | 13:47 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: how is it not valid? it's an organisational choice - a choice of tools? | 13:47 |
| AVee | Hmm, the confirmation get rejected for me. | 13:47 |
| Stskeeps | i don't care about rpm vs deb, i care about what works. | 13:48 |
| Guest58941 | +1 ! | 13:48 |
| AVee | meego-community-request@meego.com doesn't exist | 13:48 |
| rosch | +1 ! | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | AVee: i subscribed online | 13:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | AVee, yes, setup is broken. | 13:48 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, I send a memo to TimRiker. | 13:48 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: not. Don't vorry. Not valid I told as not (for my opinion) as a world plataform best choice | 13:48 |
| AVee | k, I'll try again later then. | 13:48 |
| lbt | GeneralAntilles: ? | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: okay, let me ask this another way | 13:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, infobot's owner. | 13:49 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: have you ever packaged anything for Maemo? | 13:49 |
| lbt | :) | 13:49 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: have you tried the current process and tools in place? | 13:49 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: yes... is dificult.. | 13:49 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: right. this is one of the choices that was pre-made for us. there's tools to make this immensely easier. moblin have tried those and use those. it is a integrated product, centered around rpm technology. | 13:50 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: you no longer have to deal with many of the insanities of maemo. | 13:50 |
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| Stskeeps | and we don't need to spend several years getting maemo tools up to speed. | 13:50 |
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| Stskeeps | can you see the organisational argument for that? | 13:50 |
| Guest58941 | which we dont have | 13:50 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: yes, I understand you. But is possible alter that for have less dificult or (as you told) rewrite for deb | 13:51 |
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| flightplan | at the expense that users would need to deal with rpm? | 13:51 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: yes, but this changeover will take several months. | 13:51 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: would you rather see android succeed as preferred mobile platform? | 13:51 |
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| J_P | Stskeeps: I thinking MeeGo in 4, 5, 10 years.. not | 13:51 |
| J_P | 1 or 2 | 13:51 |
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| J_P | Stskeeps: not, android NOT! | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: MeeGo is supposed to be up, working, in few months. | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | timing matters, and people need to realize that if you want a succesful project, you have to make compromises and choices. | 13:52 |
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| Guest58941 | J_P: time matters | 13:52 |
| slaine_ | And MeeGo wasn't designed from scratch | 13:52 |
| zerojay | Stskeeps: Months? | 13:52 |
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| slaine_ | MeeGo is Moblin, which has been around for a couple of years at this point | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: honestly i don't know timeline, but i can imagine it isn't a year. | 13:52 |
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| rosch | the meassage at release, was that devices should be out this year | 13:53 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: another issue is training the systems people. there's no alternative to moblin - and maemo isn't exactly the best base for things | 13:53 |
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| slaine_ | If you where starting from scratch then the deb vs rpm arguments would have some validity. But that's not the case here. The app stack from Maemo is moving to an alternative platform that is Moblin | 13:53 |
| Guest58941 | so 1/2 year until testing starts | 13:53 |
| kad | J_P: deb toolchain is not something easily hackable. | 13:53 |
| zerojay | slaine_: Aren't we starting from scratch? It sure feels like it since we're tossing out everything on the Maemo side pretty much. | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: i have personally spent a year shoe-horning Maemo on top of Debian/Ubuntu. It isn't easy. | 13:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | So why, again, hasn't anybody just gone ahead and written up all of the technical, organizational and political arguments behind the choice on a wiki page somewhere so we can stop having this discussion every 30 minutes? :) | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: w00t tried and it drowned | 13:54 |
| slaine_ | zerojay: the maemo guys have lost the most in this transition | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | or gained | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | depending on perspective | 13:54 |
| slaine_ | true | 13:54 |
| zerojay | slaine_: That's an understatement. | 13:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, not much can offset the loss of a good brand. :( | 13:55 |
| zerojay | Gained nothing but another year of scratching and clawing to get back to where we were. | 13:55 |
| slaine_ | exactly | 13:55 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: there was a need to reconstruct maemo and now we know what works. | 13:55 |
| kad | GeneralAntilles: writting them down would decrease amount of buzz going arround ;) | 13:55 |
| slaine_ | And I think the PR exercise that is MeeGo has done you all a disservice. | 13:55 |
| zerojay | Stskeeps: What need? | 13:55 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: if you spent enough time developing with maemo, you'd see the issues. platform stall and inability to spread to other devices easily. | 13:56 |
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| Stskeeps | zerojay: i think all this scratching and clawing has put us in a position where we can actually try and run things. | 13:57 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: most people here works with Debian/Ubuntu where environment is deb.. this will be better environment to Meego. | 13:57 |
| Guest58941 | J_P: it will work ! | 13:57 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: most people on the works use .deb, why not use .deb too | 13:57 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: yes, deb is a brilliant format but a choice was made and i explained you why it is so | 13:57 |
| J_P | Guest58941: yes, windows works too. with expetions, but works | 13:58 |
| zerojay | Stskeeps: No, it's put us in a position where apparently there was no confidence in Maemo and the community around it, so we get to sit on the sidelines. | 13:58 |
| slaine_ | Why on earth does one archive format over another make such a difference to people. | 13:58 |
| slaine_ | gah, I'm getting sucked in again | 13:58 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: otoh, one of the 'dictators' was idling in here earlier and was discussing issues with people :P | 13:58 |
| yngwin | indeed, as a format deb and rpm are very similar | 13:58 |
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| Guest58941 | J_P: the tools work on your distro of choice | 13:59 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: this is the top of the project, instead of hiding away in offices | 13:59 |
| yngwin | what matter is the tools | 13:59 |
| zerojay | slaine_: I don't care about what archive format is used... what I care about is that everything we worked for and worked on has been tossed aside for this shit on a whim. | 13:59 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: there is a wiki page | 13:59 |
| Guest58941 | slaine_: ppl are used to their toolss | 13:59 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: it's a bit biased, but hold on and I'll try hunt it down | 13:59 |
| kad | J_P: regardless of wrap, most valuable thing is inside the box. packaging doesn't matter much if you app is crap. | 13:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, good! Now we just need a bot to spit it out every time a baiting phrase pops up. | 13:59 |
| flightplan | slaine_: because it is not only the archive format, it is a matter of source package architecture, tools and what not. however because of OBS dealing with rpm... wl you got your reasons. | 13:59 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: i don't see it as being thrown away, i'm seeing it as them giving us what we actually want, in a shorter timeframe than what we would had to slowly and iterately gain. | 14:00 |
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| J_P | Stskeeps: Guest58941 kad "..deb is a brilliant format but a choice was made.." So if choice was made, we don't need more talk about this. | 14:01 |
| zerojay | Stskeeps: They didn't talk to anyone about "what we actually want". | 14:01 |
| J_P | I was thinking just to help! | 14:01 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: i think the deb vs rpm thing has been noticed by everyone in charge | 14:02 |
| w00t | zerojay: realistically - if people do want change, then it can still happen | 14:02 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: well, with a dysfunctional council, it was hard to get any policies done. | 14:02 |
| w00t | I haven't seen any statements to the contrary | 14:02 |
| w00t | but I also haven't seen any consensus that change is necessary, nor stepping up and taking charge of it | 14:02 |
| yngwin | if the dev vs rpm thing is the only major bone of contention, then things are in pretty good shape ;) | 14:03 |
| slaine_ | w00t, not with MeeGo 1.0 only a matter of weeks/months away | 14:03 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: http://wiki.maemo.org/2010_Agenda | 14:03 |
| Guest58941 | basically - if someone does rewrite all tools -> fine | 14:03 |
| w00t | slaine_: *shrug* | 14:03 |
| w00t | slaine_: timeframes don't change things | 14:03 |
| flightplan | maybe http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging already gives enough of argumentation to forward askers to? | 14:03 |
| slaine_ | It does to the people paying for the work to be done | 14:03 |
| w00t | slaine_: if people wanted it changed, they'd want it changed - instead, as far as I can tell, most people decided to be vocal about it and suddenly look the other way when they were asked to organise doing something about it | 14:03 |
| zerojay | Stskeeps: Nothing on that page matters anymore. | 14:04 |
| slaine_ | true | 14:04 |
| Guest58941 | but hey, no one stepped up | 14:04 |
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| w00t | Guest58941: exactly | 14:04 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: because it is coming true. | 14:04 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: you works on intel? | 14:04 |
| slaine_ | No reason why an OE project couldn't be setup to take over | 14:04 |
| w00t | slaine_: OE? | 14:04 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: no, i don't | 14:04 |
| slaine_ | Open Embedded | 14:05 |
| zerojay | Stskeeps: You must be in different places than I am because I'm not seeing it. | 14:05 |
| w00t | slaine_: ah, right - well, if there is an interest in it, I can only consider it a positive thing that it happens | 14:05 |
| flightplan | as far as I recall help has been offered initiate obs supporting deb, no? | 14:05 |
| slaine_ | Thats the point we're both making I think. There's a lot of belly aching over the changes but no affirmative action | 14:06 |
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| w00t | flightplan: there has been some activity, yes, but I don't think there has been a lot of it, and not a lot of proactive activity on it (i.e. "what needs to change to use debs") | 14:06 |
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| Stskeeps | zerojay: release soon and often - entire base system will be publically developed. one place to track feedback: public bug tracker on meego.com, co-production of documentation: seems to happening, community localisation: l10n is already being set up, variants: -everyone- including non-nokia can join in. | 14:06 |
| w00t | anyway | 14:06 |
| w00t | I'm done with that topic for now | 14:06 |
| range | Is everybody still bitching about the package format? | 14:06 |
| w00t | no need to add more to the noise :) | 14:06 |
| slaine_ | +1 | 14:06 |
| w00t | range: I'm certainly not | 14:06 |
| slaine_ | I'm off to do some work | 14:07 |
| range | w00t: Not calling names :) | 14:07 |
| range | Just looked in for today and see the same discussion. | 14:07 |
| w00t | range: I was explaining how I see things having evolved over the past few days, I couldn't care less what format is used personally, so long as there is consensus and effort is acknowledged if people want to put it in | 14:07 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: well, I wait the MeeGo will be very good. Because I loved hear notice about merge maemo and mobling to competition with android and iphone OS | 14:07 |
| Naranek | what's your take on meego running on older tablets? | 14:07 |
| Stskeeps | Naranek: unsure. depends. | 14:08 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: surely the platform itself being designed to run on multiple devices means that won't be as difficult a goal at least | 14:08 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: let's look at the technical merits when there's a system to look at, okay? | 14:09 |
| Naranek | Stskeeps: thanks. That'll do for now :) | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | J_P: i'll like to bet a beer this will be awesome. | 14:09 |
| J_P | Stskeeps: :-) | 14:10 |
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| slaine_ | The future's bright for sure. A lot of very clever and passionate people are getting together | 14:11 |
| Stskeeps | we also have to set aside our differences and work together, yes | 14:11 |
| w00t | slaine_++ | 14:12 |
| zerojay | It's got no choice but to be bright when we're completely and suddenly plunged into complete darkness. | 14:12 |
| w00t | zerojay: think bright pink and fluffy, we're going places | 14:13 |
| zerojay | Someone tell me when all the rpm/deb BS stops coming up in the mailing list. | 14:13 |
| lcuk | slaine_, we have been growing larger and larger around maemo for a while now :) this just combines things again like power frikkin rangers ;) | 14:13 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: -community should be quiter, hopefully | 14:13 |
| slaine_ | lcuk, mighty morphin' meego rangers | 14:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=528175&postcount=2 | 14:14 |
| kad | zerojay: this hollywar would be going for long time ;) | 14:14 |
| zerojay | Stskeeps: btw, yes, you tend to get broken councils when it turns into a popularity contest. | 14:15 |
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| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: Heh... I think I'm one of the few that doesn't mind the name. | 14:15 |
| * GeneralAntilles wishes somebody would fix MeeGo-community. | 14:16 | |
| GeneralAntilles | MeeGo-dev is all religious war spam. | 14:17 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: I really think it's quieted down a fair bit the past few days | 14:17 |
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| w00t | compared to what it *was* | 14:17 |
| w00t | it's still not ideal, no, but that'll continue to settle down | 14:17 |
| X-Fade | Any MeeGo server infra admin awake? | 14:17 |
| MelisU | Hello community! I want a high level compiled language for Qt. Any suggestions? (GTK had Vala, Genie and Mono) | 14:18 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: i think townxelliot said something about wiki edits | 14:18 |
| zerojay | X-Fade: You mean to tell me you don't have access? | 14:18 |
| X-Fade | zerojay: nope | 14:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, I poked some people about it. | 14:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, planning an IRC meeting possibly next Wednesday evening to discuss all these details. | 14:19 |
| villemv | MelisU: C++ | 14:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Um, also, #meego-ui and #meego-meeting have been registered and appropriately accessed. | 14:19 |
| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: We'll see if they can find it in their hearts to give any of us some access. | 14:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | #meego-devel was picked up by somebody I don't know. | 14:19 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: i have only met open arms so far. | 14:19 |
| townxelliot | X-Fade: having trouble logging into the wiki? | 14:19 |
| w00t | Stskeeps, GeneralAntilles, whoever: has someone thought to file a GCF for #meego? | 14:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, arjan said as long as people are vetted maemo.org-side it wont be an issue. | 14:19 |
| Stskeeps | w00t: i did earlier | 14:19 |
| X-Fade | townxelliot: No, mailserver doesn't like me. | 14:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, I poked arjan. . . . | 14:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nevermind | 14:20 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: good boy, I'll do a little prodding there later | 14:20 |
| MelisU | villemv: C++ stinks. I want more features and memory management. | 14:20 |
| Stskeeps | w00t: but there's really no indicated power structure than imad and vallerti, so it is a little hard to distinguish atm | 14:20 |
| X-Fade | townxelliot: Server prevents hosts from sending when dns lookup doesn't work. | 14:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, just as we get setup for #maemo it becomes irrelevant. | 14:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Le sigh | 14:20 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: *g* | 14:20 |
| townxelliot | X-Fade: ok, right - we need somewhere to log these issues, not sure if anywhere exists as yet - I'll check | 14:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, if you want to rage against people, rage against Nokia/Intel execs and lawyers. | 14:21 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: well - it's not really that big an issue I think | 14:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, neither justified nor productive to rage against anybody at this level. | 14:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | townxelliot, hopefully bugs.meego.com RSN? :) | 14:21 |
| slaine_ | GeneralAntilles: ++ | 14:22 |
| * GeneralAntilles has got cool plans for pretty, friendly guided submission forms and everything. | 14:22 | |
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| * w00t eyes GeneralAntilles nervously | 14:23 | |
| w00t | whenever I hear the word 'plans' I get all worried | 14:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, oh, I have some GOOD plans for you. *g* | 14:23 |
| w00t | that makes me even more worried .. | 14:24 |
| villemv | MelisU: havy you tried C++ & Qt ? It doesn't stink, really. You miss some goodies like closures, but it won't slow you down that much | 14:24 |
| w00t | MelisU: Qt removes most of the aspects of memory management from you (unless you choose to handle it manually) if that's what you're worried about | 14:24 |
| villemv | other C++ frameworks do stink by design, of course, but don't let that stop you | 14:24 |
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| slaine_ | Does Qt have language bindings ? | 14:25 |
| villemv | yes, several | 14:25 |
| slaine_ | Or is it C++ only ? | 14:25 |
| w00t | slaine_: yes | 14:25 |
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| villemv | I'm waiting the Golang binding :-) | 14:25 |
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| Gelb | hi. | 14:25 |
| w00t | see also: pyqt (or pyside), etcetera | 14:25 |
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| slaine_ | cool | 14:25 |
| slaine_ | not looked at Qt since 2003'ish, so looking forward to having an excuse now | 14:26 |
| villemv | but really, many who try Qt with C++ can get by with just the good old C++ | 14:26 |
| da4089 | which of pyqt vs pyside is best to look at? | 14:26 |
| w00t | slaine_: if you ever need help - ask | 14:26 |
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| w00t | da4089: licence-wise, pyside is more permissive, but it's not really stable in some areas yet | 14:26 |
| slaine_ | I may do, my C++ is rusty as a rusty thing | 14:26 |
| * villemv is pseudo-hardcore pythonista | 14:26 | |
| villemv | huge advantage of using C++ is Qt Creator | 14:27 |
| villemv | just like eclipse is one of the few good reasons to use Java ;-) | 14:27 |
| w00t | creator is indeed a big advantage :) | 14:27 |
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| * mece concurs. qt creator is sweet. | 14:28 | |
| leinir | i personally preffer kdevelop4, but that is not to say that qt creator is not very, very nifty :) | 14:28 |
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| slaine_ | It'll probably be next weekend that I get any real time on this unfortunately. It's birthday week for me at my house, (My wife, then me, then my son over a few days. ) | 14:28 |
| MelisU | villemv: I hate C++. Sorry. It is rusty. I hate .h and .cpp whenever I see it. I really don't want to deal with such an old language. | 14:29 |
| da4089 | w00t: thx | 14:29 |
| J_P | MelisU: PySide or PyQt is a very good development system to MeeGo. Is perfect to maemo and I think will be to MeeGo too.. | 14:29 |
| w00t | da4089: no problem -- let me know if you need help with it | 14:29 |
| MiXu- | C++ doesn't feel that bad when there's Qt | 14:30 |
| MelisU | J_P: Python is dog slow and needs memory like the structural integrity of the universe would depend on it. | 14:30 |
| flightplan | MelisU: maybe one of these might fit your needs -> http://qt.nokia.com/products/programming-language-support | 14:31 |
| villemv | Well, many of the alts are not much better (Java, C#, I'm looking at you) | 14:31 |
| MelisU | flightplan: Thanks, I will take a look. | 14:32 |
| w00t | oh dear | 14:32 |
| w00t | from one religious war to another :-) | 14:32 |
| villemv | holywar! | 14:32 |
| MelisU | fight fire with fire :) | 14:32 |
| J_P | MelisU: not. You are talking about use PyQT in 200MHZ and 16MB. Actually all smarphones.. used arm or atom that has >=600MHZ and minimum one core. memory >=512MB. Will be fast as C++ | 14:32 |
| MelisU | J_P: Nope, I run Kubuntu and I know how slow the python KDE apps are. Not suitable for a smartphone PERIOD | 14:33 |
| J_P | MelisU: that is not optimized.. | 14:34 |
| w00t | MelisU: fwiw, I've used python a fair bit with Qt for my n900, and it's perfectly responsive | 14:34 |
| villemv | pygtk apps are also ok on n810 | 14:34 |
| w00t | the only problem is that they have about a 1-1.5 second startup delay because I'm too lazy to pull in classes individually, and I import the whole of QtGui and QtCore | 14:34 |
| yngwin | and dont compare bloated kde with pure Qt | 14:34 |
| J_P | MelisU: python for rewrite for maemo.. is very fast.. see what w00t say.. | 14:34 |
| w00t | MelisU: while I'm not saying I'll change your mind, I'm just saying it might be worth reevaluating | 14:35 |
| yngwin | MelisU: but there's also Qyoto if you prefer c#/mono | 14:35 |
| flightplan | qyoto was discontinued IIRC, was't it? | 14:36 |
| MelisU | thanks guys, do you think Googles Unladen Swallow Python optimisations will make it to Meego? | 14:36 |
| J_P | MelisU: yes.. pure QT is very fast compared with kde | 14:36 |
| yngwin | flightplan: qtjambi was, not qyoto afaik | 14:36 |
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| yngwin | MelisU: at some point yes | 14:36 |
| J_P | MelisU: I not your question, could you repeat with other words? | 14:37 |
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| inz | MelisU, depends on whether it's a South African or European Swallow. | 14:38 |
| MelisU | LOL | 14:38 |
| lcuk | inz, hi \o | 14:38 |
| slaine_ | MelisU: that uses even more memory that cpython and starts way way slower, so I can't see why you'd want it | 14:38 |
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| inz | lcuk, hi | 14:38 |
| lcuk | i notice you took down your maemo urls | 14:38 |
| lcuk | or its broke | 14:38 |
| inz | lcuk, got some web crawler DDoS | 14:39 |
| lcuk | :( bah | 14:39 |
| inz | lcuk, apparently they went bezerk when MeeGo was announced. | 14:39 |
| lcuk | yeah - thats called thousands of hungry OSS advocates sniffing :p | 14:39 |
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| javispedro | thousands of .deb advocates >:) | 14:40 |
| J_P | MelisU: do you think that 1s to start a app is much? | 14:41 |
| leinir | javispedro: s/advocates/zealots/ ;) | 14:41 |
| leinir | gah! i fell in, sorry :) | 14:42 |
| MelisU | J_P: Well, not really .. BUT you have to compete with Iphone etc, where everything is really fast. People notice 1 second | 14:42 |
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| J_P | MelisU: we are talking about a alternative to C++. | 14:43 |
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| J_P | MelisU: people, correct me if I'm wrong. But, if you don't wont to write app in C/C++, actually better alterative is Python + QT. | 14:43 |
| J_P | for MeeGO | 14:43 |
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| MelisU | J_P: So ? I just prefer compiled language without bloat | 14:44 |
| yngwin | fwiu, yes, C++/Qt or PyQt4 is the way to go | 14:44 |
| lcuk | visual basic ftw | 14:45 |
| yngwin | and of course QML | 14:46 |
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| slaine_ | QML ? Qt Markup Language ?? | 14:47 |
| jku_ | J_P, 1 second app startup does sound like a lot... considering the whole OS starts in < 10seconds :) | 14:47 |
| MiXu- | Which OS starts in 10 seconds? | 14:47 |
| jku_ | moblin | 14:47 |
| yngwin | yeah the new qt declarative ui | 14:47 |
| MiXu- | Ok... | 14:48 |
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| slaine_ | yngwin: hmm, nice | 14:48 |
| MiXu- | It's gonna be a lot more on the first MeeGo phone. | 14:48 |
| * GeneralAntilles doesn't care about boot times. | 14:48 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | I don't use Intel processors on my phone, so I actually have good battery life. | 14:49 |
| yngwin | slaine_: http://blog.qt.nokia.com/2010/02/15/meet-qt-quick/ | 14:49 |
| mece | you should never have to boot your phone, so boot times i completely irrevlevant imo. | 14:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | mece, well, except when you take it out of the box. ;) | 14:49 |
| jku_ | mece, I wasn't really claiming that. I wanted to point out that it's not unreasonable to expect apps to start up pretty much immediately | 14:50 |
| mece | jku_, that is true. Depends on the app though. | 14:51 |
| * w00t shakes fist at meego-community bounce | 14:51 | |
| mece | juk_, but something should happen immidiately. | 14:51 |
| MelisU | jku_: Exactly. I really think Intel and especially Nokia needs to build something Vala-like for Qt. | 14:51 |
| MelisU | They seem to push Pyhton .. but that has so many downsides. | 14:52 |
| lcuk | app startup time in python is worse | 14:52 |
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| lcuk | normal app startup time in general needs optimizing | 14:53 |
| lcuk | some frameworks are faster than others | 14:53 |
| mece | MelisU, how about vala? That works. | 14:53 |
| MelisU | Meego needs a productive high level compiled language or it will die. | 14:53 |
| MelisU | Vala does not work with Qt | 14:53 |
| MelisU | only GTK | 14:53 |
| lcuk | some are near instantanious | 14:53 |
| mece | MelisU, k. | 14:53 |
| lcuk | qt is already OO | 14:54 |
| lcuk | thats valas key | 14:54 |
| * w00t yawns | 14:54 | |
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| MelisU | lcuk: No its key is to reduce complexity. Making writing fast programs simpler and being more productive | 14:56 |
| vmlemon_ | Does Java meet that criteria? | 14:56 |
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| lcuk | MelisU, is there so much boiler plate for qt? | 14:57 |
| MelisU | vmlemon_: No, monsterous big Vm | 14:57 |
| lcuk | i thought it was all encapsulated and simplified | 14:57 |
| lcuk | by virtue of it being c++ | 14:57 |
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| pillar_ | and no vm | 14:57 |
| MelisU | It is simple for C++ | 14:58 |
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| javispedro | lcuk: it's a bit less verbose since it has a "preprocessor" that creates all boilerplate | 14:58 |
| MelisU | but that is still way off from really simple .. you still need to deal with .h shit and all the rusty rest of it | 14:58 |
| lcuk | so now people are requesting a pre-pre-processor? | 14:58 |
| MelisU | kinda .. yes | 14:58 |
| lcuk | well make an easy api wrapper class? | 14:59 |
| lcuk | with just the essentials | 14:59 |
| javispedro | you're telling me Qt is not easy enough? | 14:59 |
| vmlemon_ | So everyone's saying that they don't want Qt... But they do? ;) | 14:59 |
| w00t | MelisU: you do know you don't *have* to split the two, right? | 14:59 |
| * lcuk is gonna make qt classes encapsulating liq* soon :) | 14:59 | |
| javispedro | damn, you could classify as a student in javispedro's no-autotools school of programming | 14:59 |
| w00t | class foo { foo() { bar(); } void bar() { return; } }; is perfectly valid C++ | 15:00 |
| pillar_ | I, for one, am thrilled about Qt making it | 15:00 |
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| lcuk | ++ pillar_ | 15:00 |
| yngwin | Qt is the reason i'm getting involved | 15:00 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ah, I see religious wars have now been pulled into my web coordination thread. | 15:02 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: I did my best to stomp on it. | 15:02 |
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| GeneralAntilles | w00t, nah, not Bergie, Aldon. | 15:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, Midgard vs Drupal is something that needs discussing. | 15:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | w00t, we don't want to dump a bunch of work into Drupal if we decide it's not suited. | 15:04 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: if it does, and people are willing to invest effort into it, great | 15:04 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: I'm just trying to avoid a repeat of the packaging discussion, really | 15:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, we have a LOT of time and effort into Midgard and quite a few people who know how to work it. | 15:04 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: i.e. a lot of talk over not a lot and pretty much no action | 15:04 |
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| GeneralAntilles | w00t, well, there's people willing and able to do with this discussion, so there's definitely action set to come out of it either way. ;) | 15:05 |
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| w00t | GeneralAntilles: *g* | 15:05 |
| da4089 | hard to have action until there's a MeeGo distro to act on | 15:05 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: what makes drupal so bad? | 15:05 |
| X-Fade | w00t: And so far no a lot of input is asked from our side. | 15:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | da4089, web stuff. | 15:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | Indeed, the meego.com stuff is basically all Intel. | 15:05 |
| X-Fade | w00t: And I'm not suggesting using midgard for forum stuff either. | 15:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | da4089, before we get users pouring in is the time to figure this out. | 15:06 |
| w00t | X-Fade: sure | 15:06 |
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| X-Fade | You have one chance to architect things and start from there. | 15:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, I've just had a consistent string of bad experiences with it as a user and as an website owner. | 15:06 |
| w00t | like I said: if midguard really is the better solution, then let's go for it, I don't know much about either since I avoid prepackaged CMS like the plague | 15:06 |
| X-Fade | We just need to make sure it fits our needs beforehand. | 15:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, I think the biggest argument for Midgard are the tools and expertise we already have for it. | 15:07 |
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| w00t | GeneralAntilles: *nod* | 15:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | We actually have a big community running on ours, too. *eg* | 15:08 |
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| w00t | that's a bit below the belt *g* | 15:08 |
| X-Fade | The community aspect on maemo.org has been growing and evolving over many years. We know what our needs are. | 15:09 |
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| bergie | hi, w00t, GeneralAntilles, X-Fade | 15:13 |
| w00t | bergie: hi there | 15:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hey, bergie. | 15:13 |
| bergie | indeed, running a community like maemo.org needs quite a lot different infra than a typical open source project | 15:13 |
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| w00t | X-Fade: I wonder, though, whether you've put thought into what aspects of those needs could/will change | 15:14 |
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| bergie | ...as actually maemo.org is not just a single project, it is a collection of platform developers, end-users and many different smaller projects | 15:14 |
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| w00t | X-Fade: meego is a pretty big open slate that can be drawn on | 15:14 |
| villemv | MelisU: intel & nokia endorse C++ for this | 15:14 |
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| X-Fade | w00t: Yes, but let's use experience we gained in a few years of growing. | 15:14 |
| villemv | for end user applications (with speed, fast startup etc) | 15:14 |
| w00t | X-Fade: I'm not talking about throwing anything out, either on the ML, or here | 15:15 |
| w00t | X-Fade: I'm just doing some idle thinking now | 15:15 |
| villemv | it's a good thing to have most people using the same language too - for code reuse | 15:15 |
| villemv | Vala is not really needed for Qt in the sense it's needed for Gtk | 15:15 |
| bergie | w00t: stuff like Karma and application quality assurance can of course be developed from scratch, but even then the experiences gained on what works and what doesn't on maemo.org are valuable | 15:15 |
| MelisU | villemv: OK, but that is IMO old and rusty. No type inference, closures, big, bloated and generally not really modern. Sorry. | 15:15 |
| lcuk | villemv, fast startup is not something that is granted solely by the language, you can make c++ go slower than python for example | 15:15 |
| villemv | MelisU: C++ has type inference in C++0x | 15:16 |
| lcuk | vala works because the bloat required to code gtk objects in c is overwhelming | 15:16 |
| villemv | right lcuk | 15:16 |
| MelisU | villemv: Yeah and C++0x is right around the corner | 15:16 |
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| lcuk | but long before c++ i remember writing guis in c | 15:16 |
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| MelisU | not | 15:17 |
| lcuk | and having everytihng, it all comes down to the complexities of the framework | 15:17 |
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| bergie | w00t: but also, we're offering the existing code and experience from maemo.org to be reused on meego.com. I think it'd work pretty well | 15:17 |
| villemv | MelisU: soon enough, no sense to bank on another language instead | 15:17 |
| w00t | MelisU: for the case of a number of compilers (gcc, vc2010, at least), you can quite a few bits of it right now | 15:17 |
| villemv | I'd rather see emphasis on Go, it actually has significant advantages over C++ (while still being "native", without vm) | 15:18 |
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| w00t | but oh well, enough religious warfare for me today :-) | 15:18 |
| villemv | I just don't see the C++ part a problem for Qt & MeeGo | 15:18 |
| lcuk | me neither | 15:18 |
| MelisU | villemv: Yeah Go would be great .. but still too new. | 15:18 |
| w00t | bergie: sure, sure, I don't know why, but everyone seems to be implying that I have a problem with reusing existing infra -- if my mail gave that impression, it was not my intention | 15:18 |
| lcuk | presence of qt api within Go is something interested parties can work on tho | 15:19 |
| w00t | by no means am I a person to throw out a baby with the bathwater | 15:19 |
| lcuk | and doesnt impact on benefits | 15:19 |
| villemv | yes, it's new and has no Qt bindings. But C++ is Qt's "mother tongue", no intermediate layer needed | 15:19 |
| lcuk | of using c++ | 15:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, we hate you and we want to burn your house down. | 15:19 |
| w00t | GeneralAntilles: *shake fist* | 15:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t, so get in line or burn! :P | 15:19 |
| Stskeeps | 416 people.. | 15:19 |
| Stskeeps | maemo is 603 | 15:19 |
| villemv | 416 people, everyone with an opinion :-) | 15:19 |
| w00t | villemv: that's pretty much the way everything works | 15:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | villemv, mine is clearly superior to yours. | 15:20 |
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| w00t | the thing is, how many of those people will actually do things based on those opinions! :P | 15:20 |
| * GeneralAntilles will! | 15:20 | |
| GeneralAntilles | (probably) | 15:20 |
| bergie | w00t: ok, great, it was a misintrepretation then :-) Anyway, hoping that we can help to build a cool community out of MeeGo. I was pretty happy with the Maemo one | 15:20 |
| w00t | afternoon, Terminus- | 15:20 |
| w00t | bergie: *nod* | 15:20 |
| X-Fade | w00t: We are the exception as we actually _do_. | 15:20 |
| villemv | GeneralAntilles: undoubtedly. that's why I retain my best opinions until the initial flamewars are settled | 15:20 |
| w00t | X-Fade: just keep calling people out on it, they either start doing, or get very quiet and hide | 15:21 |
| w00t | X-Fade: at least, that's my experience | 15:21 |
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| * GeneralAntilles can't wait for the ARM vs x86 flamewars. | 15:21 | |
| villemv | that's a boring one, over too fast | 15:22 |
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| wazd | GeneralAntilles: you can start one :P | 15:22 |
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| X-Fade | w00t: Yes. Talk is cheap. | 15:22 |
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| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: the ARM saboteur ones are already insane | 15:23 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, an Atom SoC as my only migration choice for a new Maemo er . . . MeeGo device scares me, too. :P | 15:25 |
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| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i'm curious what the MeeGo stance is on resistive vs capacitive | 15:25 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:25 |
| lcuk | resistice vs capacitive vs none | 15:25 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: oh shut it :P | 15:26 |
| lcuk | ive | 15:26 |
| lardman | just as long as it has a kb | 15:26 |
| * GeneralAntilles throws cold noodles at Stskeeps. | 15:26 | |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, not nearly enough. | 15:26 |
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| pillar_ | lardman: I'm afraid of losing the kb too, capacitive multitouch is not the same.. | 15:29 |
| hrw | http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2010/02/18/maemo-meego/ | 15:29 |
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| lardman | pillar_: capacitive is nasty anyway, though I'd have resistive multitouch | 15:30 |
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| lardman | no way I'll go near something without a kb | 15:30 |
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| lardman | seeing my wife curse her Android phone and trying to get useful work done on an N800 have proven that to me | 15:32 |
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| w00t | lardman: *grin* | 15:33 |
| lardman | shortly followed by her cursing me for having suggested she get an Android phone so I could see what it was like :) | 15:34 |
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| w00t | argh, will the package format discussion diealready | 15:34 |
| Stskeeps | w00t: it reached a sane point: try to align things a little bit so it doesn't matter anymore | 15:34 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: not that thread | 15:34 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: see aldon's latest mail for an example of what I mean | 15:35 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 15:35 |
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| * GeneralAntilles restrains himself from sending angry emails to Aldon. | 15:38 | |
| w00t | +1 | 15:38 |
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| * GeneralAntilles went with (mostly) friendly. | 15:38 | |
| javispedro | ... but you can't use yum in vbulletin! | 15:38 |
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| * GeneralAntilles throws more cold noodles javispedro's direction. | 15:38 | |
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| lardman | so have we decided that deb is the best then? | 15:39 |
| lardman | I must admit I lost interest after post c.1e7 | 15:40 |
| Mirv | hi bergie | 15:40 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lardman, we're actually just going to go with tarballs. | 15:40 |
| lardman | :) | 15:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, it'll help keep users from hurting themselves with 3rd-party software. | 15:40 |
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| GeneralAntilles | and making packaging so much easier | 15:40 |
| bergie | hi Mirv | 15:40 |
| Stskeeps | no, applications should be transferred on floppy disks | 15:40 |
| javispedro | yes | 15:40 |
| lardman | punch cards | 15:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | Damn you, lardman. | 15:41 |
| * GeneralAntilles typoed. | 15:41 | |
| lardman | wave them in front of the camera to read them | 15:41 |
| javispedro | I can not help but imagine the face of the iphone users when the n910 ships with optional usb floppy reader. | 15:41 |
| javispedro | a full computer! | 15:41 |
| vmlemon_ | It's better than an iPad | 15:41 |
| lardman | of course, as long as it has a kb! | 15:41 |
| vmlemon_ | and cheaper | 15:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | vmlemon_, sadly it's got a worse name. | 15:41 |
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| vmlemon_ | Heh | 15:41 |
| w00t | punch cards? that's a luxury | 15:42 |
| javispedro | /mee doesn't know what name is that ;) | 15:42 |
| vmlemon_ | You can get worse than a MaxiPod? | 15:42 |
| * vmlemon_ hides | 15:42 | |
| w00t | and here I was thinking we'd all handwrite them and send our device and the written code to Stskeeps and get him to type it in | 15:42 |
| javispedro | ... the battery cover hides the binary switches | 15:42 |
| javispedro | please refrain from quoting xkcd, thank you. | 15:42 |
| lardman | and the leds to you know you've put it in correctly | 15:43 |
| Mirv | we would get back to the old good days when programs were distributed via printed magazines | 15:43 |
| Mirv | I remember typing furiously on my ZX Spectrum | 15:43 |
| * javispedro laughs at slashdot's latest article. | 15:43 | |
| vmlemon_ | We were at the forefront of cutting-edge technology, once - software (in BASIC) delivered through TeleText... | 15:44 |
| javispedro | let's go back to vm based software distribution | 15:44 |
| javispedro | BASIC vm. | 15:44 |
| Jaffa | vmlemon_: Mmmm, BBC teletext adapters. | 15:44 |
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| * Jaffa almost convinced his parents to get one, only a few months before they pulled the plug on it being a s/w delivery channel. | 15:45 | |
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| vmlemon_ | None of that VBI-based lark now. You're having MHEG-5 and DVB, whether you like them or not. (At least as long as OfCom are getting their way). | 15:46 |
| vmlemon_ | *OfCom and the broadcasters | 15:46 |
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| hanez | hello, is there a list of devices which meego will run on somewhere? | 15:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | hanez, sort of? | 15:59 |
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| GeneralAntilles | http://meego.com/devices/ | 15:59 |
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| lcuk | awww GeneralAntilles you got me all excited there, i tohught theywould list proper viable available preinstalled hardware :p | 16:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, Dell, Samsung, MSI. | 16:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Otherwise wait 6 months. | 16:02 |
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| CosmoHill | get | 16:02 |
| CosmoHill | hey* | 16:02 |
| luke-jr | GeneralAntilles: are the pictures on that page "next gen" art, or just some sloppy coder throwing something together? | 16:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | luke-jr, I'm presuming they have little relation to reality. | 16:03 |
| javispedro | you mean the screenshot in the netbook section, or the general clipart? | 16:03 |
| javispedro | s/clipart/art | 16:03 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, model numbers etc would be good | 16:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I wasn't involved in the production of anything on meego.com, so I have no idea. | 16:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, Dell is the Mini 10v | 16:03 |
| hanez | GeneralAntilles: thanky, but i meant is not a list of device types but devices like G1 etc | 16:04 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=moblin+dell | 16:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | hanez, MeeGo hasn't had its first release yet. | 16:04 |
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| GeneralAntilles | hanez, so, there isn't such a beast. | 16:05 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, those are pcs tho | 16:05 |
| hanez | i know... ok, i will wait. do you think that it will be available for older devices such as G1 etc in the future? | 16:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | hanez, if it's got less than 800x480, I doubt it | 16:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Unless some third party adds another UI on top. | 16:06 |
| javispedro | I doubt it either way.. | 16:06 |
| hanez | does the ui really need 800?? | 16:06 |
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| hanez | this should be patchable | 16:06 |
| nidO | the g1's olllld, cant see that supporting meego releases | 16:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | hanez, to what end? | 16:07 |
| javispedro | patchable, yes. | 16:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | hanez, you'd just be removing functionality. | 16:07 |
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| javispedro | we patch xorg and create a virtual screen larger than the real screen. | 16:07 |
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| javispedro | and you use the accelerometer to scroll. | 16:07 |
| javispedro | hey, I'm going to patent that. | 16:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | javispedro, likely already been patented. | 16:07 |
| nidO | when you do, make sure its disableable for those of us who're sane :( | 16:08 |
| javispedro | why? I'm having UX orgasm here. | 16:08 |
| javispedro | ;P | 16:08 |
| * lcuk mutters something about flexible ui scaling | 16:08 | |
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| lcuk | qt handles it gracefully afaik | 16:09 |
| lcuk | and if not, you can always add a third ui to it | 16:09 |
| lcuk | or 4th | 16:09 |
| lcuk | 5th | 16:09 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, there are limits. | 16:09 |
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| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, i know this | 16:10 |
| hanez | ok, thanks for the first information. i am new to moblin/meego but i will watch the project... ;) | 16:10 |
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| X-Fade | This interface looks like the base of the harmattan idea ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I3x04uDh3E | 16:10 |
| hanez | android is very nice but i dont want that stupid layer for writing graphical apps. i want gtk! :) | 16:10 |
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| Lynoure | I'm happy with Qt. :) | 16:11 |
| lcuk | X-Fade, gulp! i tried similar with liqbase scrolling ages ago, it needs flawless rendering to work or just leaves you feeling sick | 16:11 |
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| hanez | Lynoure: i don't like c++... ;) | 16:12 |
| Lynoure | hanez: there is pyqt, at least | 16:12 |
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| X-Fade | lcuk: Yeah, rendering need to be flawless. But then again, when doesn't it :) | 16:13 |
| hanez | but the coolest thing in meego is that the developer has the choice... | 16:13 |
| javispedro | lol to the spiraling zoom | 16:13 |
| hanez | i really love to write apps in c | 16:13 |
| lcuk | really | 16:13 |
| lcuk | X-Fade, yeah we know that :) | 16:13 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: Their first concept was before maemo5. | 16:14 |
| lcuk | hanez, can i develop qt apps in c? | 16:14 |
| leinir | hanez: Good thing Qt isn't really c++ then ;) | 16:14 |
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| wazd | http://s005.radikal.ru/i211/1002/2f/72a54f88264b.jpg <- join the deb gang! | 16:14 |
| hanez | leinir: ?? | 16:14 |
| hanez | qt is c++ | 16:14 |
| lcuk | wazd, i cant even read that | 16:14 |
| hanez | lcuk: i dont think so | 16:14 |
| wazd | lcuk: ofcourse you can't, it's a tag :D | 16:15 |
| lcuk | no, i can normally read the graffiti around here | 16:15 |
| leinir | hanez: Sort of like how Vala is technically C ;) | 16:15 |
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| hanez | leinir: isn't vala a language to language compiler? qt is a set of c++ classes... | 16:17 |
| javispedro | qt also has its own compiler | 16:17 |
| hanez | ah ok | 16:17 |
| hanez | javispedro: i didn't knew taht | 16:17 |
| andre_ | hanez: it's wrong | 16:18 |
| javispedro | the moc is technically a compiler | 16:18 |
| andre_ | hanez: Qt uses some code generators saving you from witing boilerplate code | 16:18 |
| javispedro | of course Qt's C++ isn't as different from normal C++ than Vala is different from C | 16:18 |
| javispedro | but "Vala uses some code generators saving you from writing boilerplate code" is also true. | 16:19 |
| hanez | andre_, javispedro: ok, i don't know much about qt. | 16:19 |
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| hanez | but isn't the result for qt a set of c++ classes | 16:19 |
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| lcuk | but isnt the result of vala a set of c classes | 16:20 |
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| hanez | lcuk: but what the result for qt is, is that you could not write qt apps in c | 16:21 |
| javispedro | yes, you can't. but I find it hard to hate the C++ subset used by Qt. | 16:22 |
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| hanez | javispedro: i don't hate it! i don't like c++ at all... thats why i am devleoping c apps | 16:23 |
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| villemv | argh, of course qt is straight c++ | 16:23 |
| villemv | moc is a code generator | 16:23 |
| villemv | not compiler | 16:23 |
| javispedro | what's a compiler? what's a code generator? | 16:24 |
| lcuk2 | whats the difference? ;) | 16:24 |
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| leinir | and foreach is just a macro, but your point is what? ;) | 16:24 |
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| leinir | :) even | 16:24 |
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| villemv | moc doesn't generate machine code | 16:24 |
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| lcuk2 | old style c compilers didnt either | 16:24 |
| javispedro | s/c/c++ | 16:24 |
| * lcuk2 remembers .a files | 16:24 | |
| villemv | it just looks at some files and creates a cpp file | 16:24 |
| villemv | think of a corba program, for example | 16:25 |
| villemv | is a program using CORBA a C++ program, because it invokes an IDL compiler and generates some code | 16:25 |
| javispedro | IDL compiler :) | 16:25 |
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| villemv | yes, ok, you got me on semantics here | 16:26 |
| javispedro | but this is being a bit nitpicky of course. | 16:26 |
| villemv | but it's nowhere near to how e.g. vala works | 16:26 |
| * lcuk2 parses javispedro and generates 3 umpa-lumpas | 16:26 | |
| villemv | where you don't run you "own" code at all | 16:26 |
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| villemv | moc-hatred is fud mostly | 16:26 |
| leinir | villemv: The point simply is that Qt is not your standard c++ :) | 16:26 |
| javispedro | I don't hate moc. | 16:27 |
| lcuk2 | villemv, and if vala changed to generate and link the asm? | 16:27 |
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| lcuk2 | even iwth the c stage in the middle? | 16:27 |
| leinir | And as such, it basically makes c++ pleasant to work with :) | 16:27 |
| lcuk2 | would you think differently? | 16:27 |
| villemv | lcuk2: that would be even worse | 16:27 |
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| villemv | vala would be like Qt + moc if it looked for some macros in the headers and created a .c file | 16:28 |
| villemv | that you just added to your program | 16:28 |
| villemv | and you would write the rest of your program in normal c | 16:28 |
| villemv | but now, Vala creates code that actually does all the logic, and your original code doesn't get run at all in the form it's written in | 16:29 |
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| juergbi | villemv: it rarely does with compiled languages | 16:29 |
| juergbi | cpus tend to not understand human-readable programming languages | 16:29 |
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| w00t_ | darn CPUs ;) | 16:30 |
| javispedro | it's a compiler. it parses an input and generates code on the output. the fact that it is 95% similar is just a side effect >:) | 16:31 |
| lcuk2 | then there is only one fix: build better humans | 16:31 |
| lcuk2 | 110100101011010101010111010101011010101101010101010100110! | 16:31 |
| villemv | of course "to each his own" and old c++ compilers generated C code as well | 16:31 |
| villemv | but comparison with moc is seriously strething it | 16:31 |
| javispedro | in fact, come to think of it. | 16:32 |
| villemv | there is nothing "nonstandard c++" in moc usage | 16:32 |
| javispedro | isn't moc = "meta object _compiler_" heh | 16:32 |
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| villemv | you will never write code that is not standard c++ | 16:32 |
| javispedro | public slots: is hardly standard c++ | 16:32 |
| villemv | that's a macro | 16:32 |
| villemv | defined in a standard fashion | 16:32 |
| luke-jr | Qt is a programming language | 16:32 |
| luke-jr | it happens to be mostly source compatible with C++ | 16:33 |
| luke-jr | just like C++ was with C | 16:33 |
| luke-jr | the current implementation of Qt uses C++, just as the current implementation of C++ uses C | 16:33 |
| villemv | this is getting psychedelic | 16:34 |
| javispedro | you asked for it! :) | 16:34 |
| luke-jr | so it's not that Qt violates C++ standards; it simply isn't the same language :) | 16:34 |
| lcuk2 | villemv, nahh, this is tame, just wait until you start working on compiler compilers with BNF grammars and stuff ;) | 16:34 |
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| villemv | I mean the conversation, leers around semantic bickering instead of actual technical details | 16:35 |
| fg | I create a image with follow meego wiki...it a total moblin img, only run on a ATOM cpu...will we build a full new sys without maemo resources? | 16:35 |
| villemv | C++ using qt is perfectly standard C++ | 16:35 |
| lcuk2 | this is meego though, bickering over technical details is required? | 16:35 |
| villemv | well, if we were talking about technical details instead of playing around with words... | 16:36 |
| javispedro | oh, at least I'm an academic. I tend to get lost on technical details until someone tells me "it's just yet another reimplementation of an NPDA". | 16:36 |
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| poutsi | isn't there a simple litmus test for whether it's c++ or not, namely does it compile with a c++ compiler? after code generation and macro expansion naturally | 16:36 |
| javispedro | it would compile, but fail to link I guess. | 16:37 |
| villemv | poutsi: exactly | 16:37 |
| villemv | yes, linker error unless you add the object file you got from moc | 16:37 |
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| villemv | c++ standard doesn't say whether you are allowed to link stuff to your program | 16:38 |
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| poutsi | yeah, and not allowing code generation is like saying you can't generate headers from idl files, it just doesn't make sense | 16:38 |
| villemv | indeed | 16:38 |
| javispedro | poutsi: the issue here is, would you say idl is c++ because the idl compiler generates c++? | 16:39 |
| villemv | of course not | 16:39 |
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| villemv | c++ standard doesn't say every file you deal with has to be c++ | 16:39 |
| villemv | makefiles would fail that test real fast ;-) | 16:39 |
| poutsi | javispedro, this is exactly where I use my litmus test | 16:40 |
| vmlemon_ | The difference is that you never feed a Makefile to a C++ compiler, I guess. Which makes it all moot | 16:40 |
| poutsi | the end result, whatever it is, goes through a c++ compiler, therefore for all useful intents and purposes it is c++ | 16:40 |
| javispedro | which is a bit useless since you don't question if the output of that compiler is useful at all. | 16:41 |
| poutsi | now I don't follow you | 16:41 |
| javispedro | Qt code would pass that test, but would fail to link. Is that C++ then? | 16:41 |
| villemv | *yes* | 16:41 |
| villemv | c++ standard doesn't say what you can link to | 16:41 |
| villemv | you can link to .o files created from assembly | 16:42 |
| poutsi | yep, that's pretty crucial here in my mind too | 16:42 |
| villemv | or whatever | 16:42 |
| javispedro | villemv: but what was previously selfcontained is no longer selfcontained if you use a standards-compliant c++ compiler | 16:42 |
| javispedro | thus it's broken. | 16:42 |
| villemv | that's a different matter altogether | 16:42 |
| villemv | standard doesn't say anything about being "selfcontained" | 16:43 |
| villemv | nothing is selfcontained in the world of libraries etc | 16:43 |
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| poutsi | on another totally unrelated matter, anybody happen to know if it's legal to use an URI as an id in QML? | 16:44 |
| poutsi | I can't be bothered to /j #qt :p | 16:44 |
| villemv | probably not | 16:44 |
| villemv | almost definitely not ;-) | 16:44 |
| poutsi | well, it's magic time then I guess | 16:44 |
| villemv | what on earth are you trying to do? :-) | 16:45 |
| poutsi | dynamically generated ui based on rdf data | 16:45 |
| villemv | ok... yeah, flattening scheme time | 16:46 |
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| villemv | qml has own irc channel too | 16:47 |
| villemv | #qt-declarative or somesuch | 16:47 |
| villemv | sorry, "Qt Quick" | 16:47 |
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| javispedro | villemv: oh, I'm pretty sure that any sane standard would mention that the code actually build. | 16:49 |
| villemv | javispedro: standard deals with creation of valid object code | 16:50 |
| javispedro | which you cannot with Qt code unless you use the Qt toolchain. | 16:50 |
| villemv | linkage is separate (platform specific) matter | 16:50 |
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| javispedro | villemv: actually standard doesn't talk about creation of valid object code | 16:50 |
| javispedro | that would be ELF stuff etc. | 16:51 |
| javispedro | the standard is on a higher level | 16:51 |
| javispedro | it talks about language features, standard libraries and behaviour | 16:51 |
| villemv | javispedro: ok, chalk that object code stuff to "behavior" | 16:51 |
| javispedro | beahaviour is that a hello world C++ app with a sample class works. | 16:52 |
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| javispedro | argh, *behavior | 16:52 |
| villemv | not sure if c++ standard says what it should do | 16:52 |
| villemv | never got around to reading the standard, only people talking about the standard | 16:52 |
| javispedro | well but I'm sure you know a certain quote. | 16:53 |
| javispedro | "i = i++" being undefined behavior | 16:53 |
| javispedro | it does not say nothing about it generating n relocations to x object files and libraries | 16:53 |
| villemv | actually, it's not undefined | 16:53 |
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| villemv | i = i++ is defined | 16:53 |
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| villemv | it just has some redundancy ;-) | 16:54 |
| inz | i is incremented, then reset | 16:54 |
| villemv | right | 16:54 |
| javispedro | not in C | 16:54 |
| javispedro | well, this is all old stuff | 16:54 |
| javispedro | you're going to make me check | 16:55 |
| villemv | what would it do in C? | 16:55 |
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| javispedro | whatever the implementor wanted | 16:55 |
| javispedro | well, whatever. | 16:55 |
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| villemv | no, it should evaluate rhs first, then do the assignment | 16:55 |
| villemv | you may be confusing this with having many ++ operations on same variable in function arguments for a call | 16:56 |
| javispedro | even if it's specified it later revisions, my point is that it doesn't say if the object code generated for that is an addi instruction or a function call to a library function. | 16:56 |
| inz | i dont think the evaluation order is defined, but the evaluation of rhs doesnt affect the lfs | 16:56 |
| inz | lhs | 16:56 |
| villemv | right | 16:56 |
| slaine_ | What flame war are we on at the moment ? | 16:56 |
| villemv | slaine_: "is Qt standard C++" | 16:56 |
| villemv | slaine_: which it is, obviously ;-) | 16:57 |
| MisterN | slaine_: they are exploring what c++ is. | 16:57 |
| slaine_ | Hmm, my C++ consists of C with classes | 16:57 |
| javispedro | we are wasting some time before lunch :) | 16:57 |
| poutsi | this should be a Qt FAQ :) | 16:57 |
| w00t_ | oh dear | 16:57 |
| slaine_ | I've just had a lovely lunch | 16:57 |
| w00t_ | I stop paying attention for an hour and miss all the fun | 16:57 |
| MisterN | only if that is your definition of fun. | 16:58 |
| w00t_ | MisterN: call me a masochist | 16:58 |
| slaine_ | w00t_: I'm sure we can start up another one, let me refer to my checklist. | 16:58 |
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| w00t_ | slaine_: what's next on the agenda? the merits of emacs? | 16:58 |
| javispedro | slaine_: oh, lucky you. :( | 16:58 |
| slaine_ | I think that was covered on Tuesday evening | 16:58 |
| MisterN | w00t_: but it's ok. some people will even debate whether c++ is a different language than c. | 16:58 |
| poutsi | "which desktop environment is best for meego development"? | 16:59 |
| inz | slaine, did you do apt vs rpm already? | 16:59 |
| * w00t_ stabs inz in the eyesockets | 16:59 | |
| slaine_ | I skipped that one, it'd only give me indigestion. | 16:59 |
| w00t_ | :P | 16:59 |
| slaine_ | skipped, who am I kidding | 16:59 |
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| inz | w00t, ha ha, blocked with my eyeballs! | 16:59 |
| slaine_ | After 5000 emails to the list, I'd want to be super man to skip over that one | 16:59 |
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| pinchartl | hi | 17:00 |
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| javispedro | villemv: http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/c-faq/c-4.html#4-3 | 17:00 |
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| villemv | javispedro: now that's extremely weird | 17:02 |
| villemv | does C indeed not specify it?? | 17:03 |
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| w00t_ | --i++ is a bit more fun, btw | 17:04 |
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| w00t_ | or something like that | 17:04 |
| * w00t_ forgets it now, was discussed long long ago | 17:04 | |
| javispedro | --i++ depends mostly on the operator precedence I guess, but I believe it's pretty well defined otherwise. | 17:05 |
| w00t_ | IIRC it's deceptive in that it looks well defined but it's not | 17:05 |
| w00t_ | but I'd have to go reading | 17:05 |
| javispedro | the result of the first evaluation would not be an lvalue | 17:06 |
| villemv | right, gcc gives 3 | 17:06 |
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| villemv | without giving a warning even | 17:07 |
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| w00t_ | my favourite Cism is the undefined signage of char | 17:08 |
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| javispedro | yeah :) | 17:08 |
| w00t_ | that has bitten me in the ass before when putting code on PPC. | 17:08 |
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| javispedro | the maemo toolchain also has reversed signedness vs gcc x86. | 17:09 |
| javispedro | (of char) | 17:09 |
| javispedro | which causes hard to track bugs sometimes... :( | 17:09 |
| w00t_ | it was something like getopt() in a loop with a char, while != -1 or something | 17:09 |
| w00t_ | and of course, it using unsigned char on PPC, meant that bad things happened | 17:09 |
| javispedro | yeah, I imagine :( | 17:10 |
| CosmoHill | hey w00t_ | 17:10 |
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| w00t_ | hi | 17:10 |
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| Jaffa | For those intersted, pending discussions elsewhere (such as meego-community), there's a discsuion about meego.com fora at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44977 | 17:21 |
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| w00t_ | ta Jaffa | 17:23 |
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| amby | hi all | 17:28 |
| CosmoHill | hey | 17:28 |
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| amby | question: i'm having problem w meego-community mailing list | 17:29 |
| amby | the qestion: did anyone manage to post there? | 17:30 |
| bva | whats the problem than amby | 17:30 |
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| Jaffa | amby: AFAIK, it's still broken. Various threads about it on meego-dev ;-) | 17:30 |
| amby | ahma, thx | 17:30 |
| amby | how do I cultivate and support the diverse MeeGo community then? ;) | 17:31 |
| Jaffa | 5 mins before you joined, I said: | 17:31 |
| Jaffa | For those intersted, pending discussions elsewhere (such as meego-community), there's a discsuion about meego.com fora at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44977 | 17:31 |
| Jaffa | amby: And there's http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group and other pages under http://wiki.meego.com/Category:Community | 17:32 |
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| amby | Jaffa: thx, missed that thread | 17:34 |
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| * Jaffa 's got his community facilitator hat back on. It's just like the 770 days :) | 17:34 | |
| amby | I've signed up for the community workgroup | 17:35 |
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| GAN900 | Jaffa, fun fun. . . . | 17:37 |
| X-Fade | Added my thoughts. | 17:38 |
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| Jaffa | amby: Ah, just spotted from RenegadeFanboy's sig that you're them. | 17:40 |
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| bva | little notice: MeeGo Wiki -> Preferences -> Special pages -> files : some HTML being showed on that page. | 17:47 |
| bva | dont know who to tell that so I just tell it here | 17:47 |
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| Jaffa | bva: townxelliot would be my guess | 17:48 |
| townxelliot | bva: Special pages > File list? | 17:48 |
| townxelliot | bva: paste the URL in here, I'll have a look | 17:49 |
| bva | http://wiki.meego.com/Special:Preferences -> files | 17:49 |
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| bva | Guys I like to contribute to Meego altough I'm not really a programmer / anything fancy titled ... whats the best way to be helpfull? | 17:51 |
| townxelliot | bva: better? (MediaWiki default, not sure why that was broken) | 17:51 |
| bva | townxelliot: nice one :) | 17:51 |
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| th0br0 | if one is interested in one of the working group proposals, i guess i should just add myself? | 17:53 |
| Jaffa | th0br0: correct | 17:53 |
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| CosmoHill | hey guys, you know some websites have things to make the font bigger if you find it's to small to read | 17:53 |
| CosmoHill | how easy is it to do that? | 17:53 |
| Jaffa | CosmoHill: It's called the text-zoom feature in your web browser. Try holding Ctrl and scrolling up & down on your mouse wheel ;-) | 17:54 |
| bva | CosmoHill: If you implement it from scratch building its not that hard | 17:54 |
| CosmoHill | I'm making a wesbite and have been told to research it | 17:54 |
| Stskeeps | bva: there's many different areas to help out in :) | 17:55 |
| villemv | rule #1: have sensible size text | 17:55 |
| bva | I think you better go to #php or any other language you are using | 17:55 |
| Stskeeps | bva: when the structures start appearing, i'm sure you'll find a spot | 17:55 |
| villemv | not "too small by default, allow making it larger" | 17:55 |
| villemv | javascript snippet probably | 17:56 |
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| bva | CosmoHill: Or you can refer to different css style pages | 17:56 |
| CosmoHill | hmm | 17:56 |
| CosmoHill | I'll have a play this afternoon | 17:56 |
| CosmoHill | kinda hooked on a game atm :) | 17:57 |
| bva | like add a "do you have glasses" option button on the profile page :D | 17:57 |
| th0br0 | Jaffa: ok, done .) | 17:57 |
| yngwin | should be pretty easy with some javascript | 17:57 |
| th0br0 | yay1 yum! | 17:57 |
| th0br0 | :D) | 17:57 |
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| bva | tha advantage of JS is that you dont have to reload I guess | 17:58 |
| CosmoHill | I'm doing two websites for differnet modules | 17:59 |
| CosmoHill | one is xhtml + css + JS only | 17:59 |
| CosmoHill | the other has that and php + mysql | 17:59 |
| th0br0 | Jaffa: funny / interesting how there are pretty much only nokia guys (and girls) listed on the working group contributors / interested ppl list | 18:02 |
| Stskeeps | we're a very very active community | 18:02 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 18:02 |
| th0br0 | and some maemo officials too | 18:02 |
| th0br0 | ;P Stskeeps | 18:02 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: why iz there no meego-packaging list yet? :D | 18:02 |
| th0br0 | eeh -repository | 18:03 |
| Stskeeps | code first, wine later | 18:03 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 18:03 |
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| th0br0 | ;) true. | 18:03 |
| kebax | what is the first target for meego? ARM? | 18:03 |
| th0br0 | kebax: arm and x86 i gues | 18:04 |
| th0br0 | s | 18:04 |
| bva | so did ppl decided to go for a combined packaging syustem or just solo RPM ? | 18:04 |
| kebax | okay, so mobile-ux for arm and netbook-ux for atom.. er, sorry.. x86 | 18:05 |
| th0br0 | meego will be using yum, bva... | 18:05 |
| th0br0 | therefore separated packages for all architecutres. | 18:05 |
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| th0br0 | btw, is that rpm vs deb still the same trolling thread it was at the beginnign? | 18:07 |
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| kebax | how is architechture separation dependable on package sysetm? | 18:08 |
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| th0br0 | kebax: it is not. but i don't know whether it's rpm or yum, but ... oh... | 18:09 |
| th0br0 | i misunderstood bva's question i guess. | 18:09 |
| kebax | I did not undestand that eiher | 18:09 |
| th0br0 | no, it's yum for both architectures. only that ofc you've got different rpms for the 2 architectures, not both in one ;) | 18:09 |
| th0br0 | kebax: i think he wanted to know whether meego would use sth like apt or yum or interface with rpm directly | 18:10 |
| bva | well, it was about the RPM vs DEB thinghy. I followed the discussion a bit and ppl are agreeing in supporting both at the same time | 18:10 |
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| javispedro | bof | 18:10 |
| kebax | oh | 18:10 |
| th0br0 | both at the same time? that's ... crazy. | 18:11 |
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| th0br0 | and completely unlogical... that requires twice the amount of qa and whatnot. | 18:11 |
| bva | well thats the last post I read about it | 18:11 |
| th0br0 | mh, ok, so it's not really important ;) | 18:11 |
| bva | probably | 18:11 |
| bva | :) | 18:11 |
| bva | My opinion? people have to just accept decicions that are being made ... adn not question EVERYTHING :) | 18:12 |
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| th0br0 | yeah. i think pretty much the same way although i have got a yum/rpm "background" ;) | 18:13 |
| bva | unless they have a valid reason for it and know what they are talking about | 18:13 |
| kebax | er, isnt maemo packaged in deb? | 18:14 |
| th0br0 | there has been no eta on code so far, has there? | 18:14 |
| th0br0 | kebax: it is; meego however will be packaged in rpm | 18:14 |
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| X-Fade | You have to understand that the largest vocal community is coming from maemo.org and they know deb. | 18:14 |
| X-Fade | So they come from that standpoint. | 18:14 |
| kebax | well, I heard a long time ago that moblin was planning deb packaging | 18:15 |
| th0br0 | yeah X-Fade i know. | 18:15 |
| th0br0 | http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/ia32/os/image-config/default-vm.ks << nice to see that meego will be vm-able without problems... or so it seems | 18:15 |
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| kebax | so maemo does deb well, wouldnt that be a synergy aspect | 18:16 |
| th0br0 | I guess I'll take a look at the specs used right now. | 18:17 |
| javispedro | "well"... | 18:17 |
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| th0br0 | mh, right now that repo.meego.com only seems to contain moblin-related stuff. | 18:19 |
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| J_P | th0br0: you are right | 18:20 |
| th0br0 | ... but? | 18:21 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Let me introduce you to townxelliot (Niels Breet meet Elliot Smith). One's the maemo.org webmaster, the other is the meego.com website techy. | 18:21 |
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| Stskeeps | someone keeping a who's who yet? :P | 18:23 |
| * Jaffa was going to start-one, but we've basically got one for the community peeps at http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group | 18:24 | |
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| bva | I just started that :D | 18:24 |
| * itdock gets thoroughly caffinated | 18:24 | |
| CosmoHill | well I'm cosmo | 18:24 |
| Jaffa | bva: URL? | 18:24 |
| bva | I thought, damn I have to write this down! | 18:24 |
| CosmoHill | :3 | 18:24 |
| bva | No url yet, can I make one? | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: no, i was ... thinking about starting one, too | 18:24 |
| * Jaffa starts one. Hang on | 18:24 | |
| th0br0 | thanks Jaffa :) | 18:25 |
| * bva thinks jaffa is to enthousiastic :p | 18:25 | |
| th0br0 | ^^ | 18:25 |
| th0br0 | well, right now, there is no code, so you've got to do somethink ;D | 18:25 |
| Jaffa | http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who | 18:26 |
| Jaffa | Put a structure in place, not created any links yet. | 18:26 |
| bva | TBH im kind of new in this comunity thing so im a bit "afraid" of making things and such | 18:26 |
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| Stskeeps | bva: everyone is a newbie atm | 18:26 |
| th0br0 | Much like most open source projects governed by a benevolent dictator, the MeeGo project will be led Imad Sousou (imad.sousou@intel.com) and Valtteri Halla (valtteri.halla@nokia.com). duh... well, i guessed sth like that still they should make some board that get's like 1/2 community, 1/3 nokia & 1/3 intel :D | 18:26 |
| bva | Jaffa maybe drop the ' to avoid problems? | 18:26 |
| Jaffa | The names in the first bit are easy, the names in the third bit are easy (for me); some of the names for the fourth group I got from townxelliot | 18:27 |
| Jaffa | bva: But then it'd be grammatically incorrect ;-) | 18:27 |
| th0br0 | maybe make it 3/7 community 2/7 intel 2/7 nokia yah... | 18:27 |
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| bva | Jaffa: true | 18:27 |
| Jaffa | bva: I've added a redirect at http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who to make it easier to type though ;-) | 18:27 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: first one, imad's nick is imad and was here earlier today | 18:27 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Indeed | 18:28 |
| * CosmoHill offers people tea and hobnobs | 18:28 | |
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| th0br0 | :) | 18:29 |
| bva | Ok hope I didnt mix Townx and X-fade up :p | 18:29 |
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| th0br0 | you could#ve put some links in there bva ;) | 18:31 |
| bva | hey as I tokd you I'm very new to this community thing so :p I'm stil llearning :D | 18:31 |
| bva | Let me try this :p | 18:32 |
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| Jaffa | bva: I've just saved the whole page so you may get a conflict. | 18:33 |
| th0br0 | too bad i missed imad :( | 18:33 |
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| bva | Damn you Jaffa :p | 18:34 |
| Stskeeps | i think he'll be back once he's not jetlagged anymore :) | 18:34 |
| Jaffa | bva: sorry, I'm feeling fervent | 18:34 |
| th0br0 | true :) oh yeah... i completely forgot that the nokia ppl are in pretty much the same timezone as i am ;) | 18:34 |
| * Jaffa limits himself to the Maemo community stakeholders for now | 18:34 | |
| th0br0 | :P | 18:35 |
| bva | nono go ahead :p | 18:35 |
| bva | let yourself go | 18:36 |
| bva | be wild! :D | 18:36 |
| ml-mobile | wheee | 18:36 |
| ml-mobile | fire alarm | 18:36 |
| CosmoHill | good thing you're on your mobile | 18:36 |
| bva | in that case your supposed to get out of the building ml-mobile | 18:36 |
| ml-mobile | yup | 18:36 |
| ml-mobile | oh I am | 18:36 |
| th0br0 | would be nice to see the source code released by the end of this week though... imad's "about to" looks great .D | 18:36 |
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| th0br0 | besides, forget that timezone gibberish, i forgot that imad's from intel (therefore usa) and not the nokia guy :) | 18:37 |
| tripz0 | heh... source code... heh | 18:37 |
| th0br0 | it's kinda sad to see OBS and not koji + bodhi being used ( ;) ) -- (koji is our build system; bodhi is our package qa tool... give karma to packages / updates!) | 18:38 |
| * bva found the wiki userguide and has soem reading material now | 18:39 | |
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| bva | Cant wait for the first (affordable) mobile Meego device to come on the marked | 18:42 |
| * CosmoHill rage quits a game | 18:42 | |
| bva | I'm working with WM now (dont shoot) | 18:42 |
| th0br0 | right, i'll be back in ~2h i guess. ttyl | 18:42 |
| bva | bb | 18:43 |
| CosmoHill | i'm a small guy just starting out and i get crushed :( | 18:43 |
| th0br0 | CosmoHill: which game? | 18:43 |
| CosmoHill | Startopia | 18:43 |
| th0br0 | never heard about that | 18:43 |
| CosmoHill | it's from 2001 iric | 18:43 |
| CosmoHill | iirc* | 18:43 |
| th0br0 | yeah just looked it up | 18:43 |
| th0br0 | looks like c&c | 18:43 |
| bva | only one game in the world :D *WoW* | 18:43 |
| leinir | bva: Indeed... and the Gluon team is aiming at changing that ;) | 18:44 |
| bva | url? | 18:45 |
| leinir | http://gluon.tuxfamily.org/wiki/index.php?title=The_Gluon_Vision | 18:45 |
| * RST38h moos | 18:45 | |
| leinir | Nah, we just kinda hope that people will like our little utopian idea :) | 18:46 |
| * Jaffa finishes his first round of edits on http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who so anyone else feel free to go at it and I won't step on your toes (sorry bva!) | 18:46 | |
| bva | leinir: I sure hope they succeed! Wine isn't all that :s | 18:46 |
| leinir | bva: Indeed :) | 18:46 |
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| Stskeeps | Jaffa: nicknames might help? | 18:47 |
| * bva 's toe is crushed! :p hehe good job Jaffa! | 18:47 | |
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| * Stskeeps goes edit the ones he knows | 18:47 | |
| leinir | Ohnoes, you toe-crushing madman! ;) | 18:47 |
| * Maulkin waves | 18:48 | |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: You can get 'em with a URL hover, but agreed. | 18:50 |
| bva | I'm done working so I'm off to home... see you later | 18:51 |
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| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps | 18:52 | |
| *** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work" | 18:52 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps | 18:52 | |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: I suspect dirkhh_ is on the TSG, but I've seen no confirmation apart from imad and valhalla | 18:53 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Perhaps the "Real name/Nick" format as used on http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group? | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | maybe | 18:54 |
| * Stskeeps edits | 18:54 | |
| th0br0 | mmh good idea. | 18:54 |
| lbt | smirk | 18:54 |
| th0br0 | I should add my nicks there too | 18:54 |
| th0br0 | s/nicks/nick/ | 18:55 |
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| Stskeeps | right, done editing :P | 18:58 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: You've missed off the link to your meego.com account ;-) | 18:59 |
| slaine_ | Interesting stats could be derived from that http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group page | 18:59 |
| th0br0 | slaine_: as in? | 18:59 |
| th0br0 | how many nokia, intel, meego, moblin, 3rd party ppl? | 18:59 |
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| CosmoHill | you know i described how to change font size in a website | 19:01 |
| lbt | Jaffa: maybe now we can have http://djangopeople.net/ | 19:01 |
| CosmoHill | does that have a technical term? | 19:01 |
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| villemv | "select text size javascript" | 19:02 |
| villemv | seems to be digested by google properly | 19:02 |
| CosmoHill | http://labnol.blogspot.com/2006/12/allow-site-visitors-to-change-font.html | 19:03 |
| CosmoHill | this seems good | 19:03 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: http://meego.com/users/margie suggested a different nick FWIW | 19:09 |
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| Stskeeps | Jaffa: hm, she didn't use 'margie' the other day so | 19:09 |
| CosmoHill | yay | 19:11 |
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| CosmoHill | i wrote some javascript :) | 19:11 |
| CosmoHill | .... | 19:11 |
| CosmoHill | no i feel dirty | 19:11 |
| CosmoHill | now*& | 19:11 |
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| timeless_mbp | Jaffa: she gave me a different nick when i contacted here | 19:12 |
| CosmoHill | thanks for the hints / help guys :) | 19:14 |
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| villemv | no need to be embarrassed about javascript, it's the new cool thing | 19:35 |
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| villemv | holywar #12111 | 19:36 |
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| slaine_ | commute time, catch you lot later | 19:44 |
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| anunakin | Hi All! | 19:44 |
| anunakin | Any hope about MeeGo on BeagleBoard? | 19:45 |
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| timeless_mbp | anunakin: i hope if it's open source and you bring your own engineers, you can make it work :) | 19:45 |
| timeless_mbp | but, some version(s) of maemo ran on BeagleBoard ... | 19:45 |
| anunakin | :( | 19:46 |
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| timeless_mbp | anunakin: what kind of answer did you want? | 19:48 |
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| timeless_mbp | it's not like there are any source repositories on meego.com today :) | 19:49 |
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| anunakin | hehe | 19:50 |
| anunakin | ok thanks | 19:50 |
| anunakin | timeless_mbp: On time! right | 19:50 |
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| user_ | Janne | 20:11 |
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| CosmoHill | hey arjan | 20:24 |
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| sh0gun | Hi all | 20:53 |
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| CosmoHill | hello | 20:53 |
| leinir | 'lo :) | 20:53 |
| leinir | wow, it's been quiet in here the last couple of hours! :) | 20:53 |
| sh0gun | Nokia said some tim before, that UI for new Symbian and Maemo 6 will be the same. These plans are not true anymore since merging with Moblin? | 20:54 |
| leinir | sh0gun: That's an odd statement... | 20:54 |
| leinir | Wait, are you sure they did not mean that the same framework can be used to create applications for both? | 20:54 |
| leinir | Rather than the UI actually being the same... | 20:54 |
| RST38h | Nokia intends to use two different qt based frameworks for maemo and symbian | 20:55 |
| sh0gun | sure that framework, but I'm pretty sure that I read about UI too | 20:55 |
| sh0gun | let me find it again | 20:55 |
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| leinir | Hmm... i'd be interested in seeing that, as i'm pretty sure that's a bit of a dud statement (smartphones and mobile computers are, after all, not the same thing...) | 20:55 |
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| RST38h | leinir: talk.maemo.org | 20:56 |
| leinir | RST38h: thanks :) | 20:56 |
| leinir | but that's a slightly imprecise position ;) | 20:56 |
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| sh0gun | hmm, ok lets say that it was in dream :D.... anyway, Nokia just released Maemo 6 UI couple of days ago, seems that they put a lot of work into it, is it going to be used in MeeGo? | 20:57 |
| CosmoHill | oh crap, that's right, i have homework for tomorrow | 20:57 |
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| sh0gun | Or what do they plan? Different UI's for netbook MeeGo and mobile MeeGo? | 20:59 |
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| th0br0 | different ones sh0gun | 21:00 |
| sh0gun | because I have seen UI of Maemo 6 and it doesn't look very nice, Moblin seems far nicer for me | 21:00 |
| th0br0 | at least, according to the architecture page. | 21:00 |
| sh0gun | aha | 21:00 |
| sh0gun | so it is highly possible that MeeGo will continue in Maemo 6 UI? | 21:00 |
| RST38h | It will probably be Maemo6 UI | 21:01 |
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| RST38h | With some additions from Moblin | 21:01 |
| sh0gun | good | 21:01 |
| RST38h | based on the fact that Moblin adopts Qt | 21:01 |
| RST38h | and that it has been using Nokia's Hildon all along | 21:01 |
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| tripz0 | hildon? | 21:03 |
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| CosmoHill | will meego support a wider range of x86 devices than moblin currently does? | 21:04 |
| CosmoHill | and other chipsets / graphics cards like nvidia? | 21:04 |
| tripz0 | hmm... i suppose that depends on who rolls the distribution. For example, the ubuntu moblin supported nvidia etc | 21:05 |
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| tripz0 | moblin vanilla didn't tho | 21:06 |
| CosmoHill | ubuntu moblin? | 21:06 |
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| CosmoHill | you mean their netbook edition? | 21:06 |
| tripz0 | yes, ubuntu moblin remix | 21:06 |
| CosmoHill | ah | 21:06 |
| tripz0 | well, they have a netbook remix and a moblin remix | 21:06 |
| CosmoHill | i might give the mobin remix a go | 21:07 |
| koupsa | ubuntu is unbuntu and moblin moblin isn't it? | 21:07 |
| CosmoHill | no point doing the ubuntu one cos I might as well use the full version | 21:07 |
| koupsa | not same projest? | 21:07 |
| CosmoHill | this it's a laptop i have, not a betbook | 21:07 |
| CosmoHill | koupsa: maybe ubuntu mobin remix is like what centOS is to redhat | 21:07 |
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| tripz0 | not really | 21:08 |
| tripz0 | ubuntu moblin is ubuntu's core with moblin UI on top | 21:08 |
| tripz0 | it's not just a rebranded version of moblin | 21:08 |
| Jaffa | Hmmm. Have the mailing lists now died completely or did all the RPM/deb discussions die out? | 21:08 |
| tripz0 | ubuntu literally deb packaged up moblin packages for their own distro | 21:09 |
| th0br0 | Jaffa: i hope for the latter | 21:09 |
| * CosmoHill jumps on Jaffa | 21:09 | |
| VDVsx | Jaffa, if you like we can argue about that here as well (again) :D | 21:11 |
| Jaffa | No, it's OK. | 21:12 |
| CosmoHill | tripz0: i might have to give that a go | 21:12 |
| Jaffa | It's obvious we should use ZeroInstall, anyway. | 21:12 |
| Jaffa | Anything else is just stupids. Duh. | 21:12 |
| tripz0 | CosmoHill, i hope it fairs for you better than it did for me. I found stability an issue on my dell 1012 netbook | 21:12 |
| tripz0 | ended up just installing vanilla ubuntu | 21:12 |
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| CosmoHill | i can find the ubuntu netbook remix | 21:13 |
| CosmoHill | but not the moblin one | 21:13 |
| tripz0 | 2 secs | 21:13 |
| tripz0 | iirc, it was a pain to find | 21:13 |
| VDVsx | Jaffa, I want something like symbian, where we've to accept 5+ notifications when the packages aren't signed ;) | 21:14 |
| CosmoHill | http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile | 21:14 |
| CosmoHill | ? | 21:14 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: 'big corp vps' btw? | 21:14 |
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| tripz0 | CosmoHill, http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/releases/ | 21:14 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: As in "vice presidents". US companies hand that title out like sweets | 21:14 |
| CosmoHill | at the moment my laptop has windows 7, lfs and clfs | 21:15 |
| CosmoHill | merci | 21:15 |
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| CosmoHill | it's weird that my best computer is probably used the least | 21:17 |
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| koupsa | bye all | 21:21 |
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| CosmoHill | btw how long has this channel been logged? | 21:36 |
| th0br0 | yesterday i guess | 21:36 |
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| chickengeorge_n | http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7105/linuxreiserqe4.jpg | 21:45 |
| timeless_mbp | CosmoHill: you could follow the link from the channel topic and see for yourself :) | 21:46 |
| CosmoHill | tripz0: can I copy the moblin ubuntu reminx to SD card? | 21:46 |
| CosmoHill | chickengeorge_n: in english? | 21:46 |
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| chickengeorge_n | ReiserFS: Use it or you will be dead. /// this was the last words that Hans Reiser said to his wife | 21:47 |
| chickengeorge_n | this picture is hans reiser | 21:47 |
| mikeleib | this is unhelpful | 21:48 |
| chickengeorge_n | :( | 21:48 |
| chickengeorge_n | sad | 21:48 |
| RST38h | Is Hans Reiser dead already? | 21:48 |
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| chickengeorge_n | no, but his wife | 21:48 |
| chickengeorge_n | cause she did not want to use his filesystem he killed her | 21:49 |
| chickengeorge_n | :( | 21:49 |
| RST38h | Weird then: he obviously has no chance to use his fs, but he is still alive | 21:49 |
| chickengeorge_n | and cause of this i made this picture | 21:49 |
| chickengeorge_n | maybe he programm it in jail | 21:49 |
| villemv | tragedy | 21:50 |
| chickengeorge_n | or he is forced into pain in jail and forced to use ntfs-fs there :) | 21:50 |
| chickengeorge_n | yes | 21:50 |
| * RST38h yawns | 21:50 | |
| chickengeorge_n | its crazy | 21:50 |
| CosmoHill | doesn't his company still work on the FS? | 21:50 |
| villemv | Namesys considers ReiserFS (now occasionally referred to as Reiser3) stable and feature-complete and, with the exception of security updates and critical bug fixes, has thus ceased development on it to concentrate on its successor, Reiser4. | 21:51 |
| chickengeorge_n | seems so | 21:51 |
| RST38h | Some autistic schmuck kills his mail-order wife and somehow it is a tragedy | 21:52 |
| RST38h | A mild amusement, at most, hardly a tragedy | 21:52 |
| chickengeorge_n | #yes a mixture of both | 21:53 |
| * vmlemon_ wonders if anyone's likely to buy the Puma Phone (outside of the folks here, of course)... | 21:53 | |
| villemv | it's a persistent source of laughs at places like slashdot, but it's interesting to see how much tech technically "dies" by occurences like this | 21:54 |
| villemv | name is stained | 21:54 |
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| CosmoHill | puma phone? | 21:54 |
| villemv | at some point people were waiting for reiser4 like the next coming | 21:54 |
| chickengeorge_n | http://www.pumaphone.com/ | 21:54 |
| chickengeorge_n | :) | 21:54 |
| chickengeorge_n | lolo | 21:54 |
| vmlemon_ | http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2010/02/16/puma-phone-hands-on-photo-fest | 21:54 |
| jrayhawk | Hans had NPD, not autism. | 21:55 |
| chickengeorge_n | NPD? | 21:55 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder | 21:55 |
| chickengeorge_n | this nationalsocialist party? | 21:55 |
| chickengeorge_n | aah | 21:55 |
| chickengeorge_n | #i see | 21:55 |
| vmlemon_ | Heh, I like this bit of Engrish on the Samsung Wave site - "Wave is delight. Bada platform and Samsung Apps is an array of pure fun and joy!" | 21:56 |
| CosmoHill | i keep thinking of Jaguar | 21:56 |
| * vmlemon_ seriously doubts that it'll live up to that | 21:56 | |
| RST38h | jrayhawk: Even worse, as it can hardly be caled a medical condition | 21:56 |
| CosmoHill | oh it is made by the sports cloths people | 21:56 |
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| jrayhawk | Psychological disorders aren't medical conditions? | 21:57 |
| vmlemon_ | Makes about as much sense as the Prada Phone, or the Vertu crap from Nokia | 21:57 |
| CosmoHill | oh and there website is pretty much unuseable | 21:57 |
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| vmlemon_ | (Series 40 handsets without colour displays or basic functionality in gaudy cases, at excessively high prices!) | 21:58 |
| chickengeorge_n | samsung serene | 22:00 |
| vmlemon_ | Or the SEMC Xperia Pureness | 22:00 |
| vmlemon_ | Now that's pointless | 22:00 |
| chickengeorge_n | :) | 22:01 |
| RST38h | jrayhawk: Outside of the US, usually no | 22:01 |
| vmlemon_ | Haha, http://ideas.symbian.org/Idea/View?ideaid=5228 | 22:01 |
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| * vmlemon_ is constantly amused by some of the crap that people post there | 22:01 | |
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| RST38h | vmlemon: Have they started proposing perpetual motion engines already? | 22:02 |
| vmlemon_ | Nah, just some idiot that wants a "bomb detection device" that wastes battery power and racks up data charges for the user to do nothing but send data constantly, without even telling the user | 22:03 |
| vmlemon_ | what it's doing | 22:03 |
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| villemv | I've sometimes thought that a phone with snap-out blade could be a hit | 22:04 |
| vmlemon_ | A literal RAZR... | 22:04 |
| vmlemon_ | Shame that Motorola never ran with that idea ;) | 22:04 |
| villemv | it would of course have camouflage covers | 22:04 |
| th0br0 | :P villemv | 22:04 |
| villemv | For scanning hardware, it should so small, that can fit in mobile device, device or hardware may be in nano technology or in any technology, and it should be small and tiny. it will need high efficiency nano technology Scanner or radar. | 22:06 |
| villemv | does that stuff exist? | 22:06 |
| vmlemon_ | Probably not | 22:06 |
| villemv | """Army personnel is important and he fights on behalf us. Just like that, you are helping your country to protect your own people. Just using your mobile and without your notice.""" | 22:07 |
| villemv | talk about not sticking with the implementation trivia... | 22:07 |
| vmlemon_ | Spyware | 22:07 |
| vmlemon_ | Literally | 22:07 |
| vmlemon_ | Do. Not. Want. | 22:07 |
| villemv | well, iPhone halfway fills that role as an explosive device | 22:07 |
| vmlemon_ | Or anything with a Sony Li-Ion battery | 22:07 |
| CosmoHill | that is how i got a free battery replacement :) | 22:08 |
| vmlemon_ | Still, @cdavieswashere and myself had a field day on Twitter with dissecting that crazy idea | 22:08 |
| villemv | sow | 22:08 |
| villemv | lol @ comments | 22:09 |
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| vmlemon_ | It's his only Idea too, which doesn't exactly give him credibility | 22:09 |
| villemv | talk about "there's an app for that" | 22:09 |
| vmlemon_ | "When our glorious overlords find their target, will they be sending in the black leather clad overwatch troopers or will they just douse the area in VX gas and call it a day?" | 22:09 |
| vmlemon_ | There was someone else who was insistent that nobody down-ranked his shitty Idea too | 22:10 |
| vmlemon_ | Of course, everyone did downrank it | 22:10 |
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| vmlemon_ | Heh, some folks wanted to rename both the Platform and the Foundation too, ignoring the fact that there's been heavy investment in rebranding it, already | 22:12 |
| vmlemon_ | That was shot down, too | 22:12 |
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| Stskeeps | evening kathy :) | 22:14 |
| RevdKathy | Evening Stskeeps | 22:15 |
| Stskeeps | how's it going? | 22:15 |
| Suurorca | kathy :) | 22:15 |
| vmlemon_ | "I do not about gray market, Just I am thinking about safety or crucial information that police should know. Its our self responsibility to help them, because they keep us safe." - More LOLs | 22:16 |
| RevdKathy | evening Suurorca | 22:16 |
| RevdKathy | Bit flat tonight | 22:16 |
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| slaine_ | RevdKathy: that's a good thing given the last few days onslaught :) | 22:16 |
| th0br0 | RevdKathy: is the Revd supposed to stand for revered or reverend? | 22:17 |
| Stskeeps | RevdKathy: think everyone is exhausted after these days | 22:17 |
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| RevdKathy | I think not getting the update makes me just feel that somehow it's all a bit irrelevent | 22:17 |
| RevdKathy | reverend, th0br0. Methodist | 22:17 |
| th0br0 | ah ok :) | 22:17 |
| Stskeeps | RevdKathy: you're on vodafone or how was it? | 22:17 |
| Stskeeps | or just general UK | 22:17 |
| RevdKathy | no, just general UK - 90% didn't get it | 22:18 |
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| Stskeeps | yeah, it's kinda weird it didn't | 22:18 |
| RevdKathy | Yo timeless_hbp | 22:18 |
| villemv | I'll file an idea about anomaly detector | 22:18 |
| th0br0 | heya timeless | 22:18 |
| RevdKathy | strange garbled message via someone's call to custy support that 'they know' | 22:19 |
| villemv | something phone hw can do | 22:19 |
| th0br0 | villemv: haha, find some way to optimize the compass's in the various symbian phones so that you can detect magnetic fluctuations!? | 22:19 |
| villemv | not sure about exact algorihm. "they" will tell me when I sleep | 22:19 |
| th0br0 | ""they""? | 22:20 |
| timeless_mbp | hello | 22:20 |
| * timeless_mbp is brancing into more channels | 22:20 | |
| th0br0 | :) timeless_mbp | 22:20 |
| villemv | voices, man | 22:20 |
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| timeless_mbp | s/c/ch/ | 22:20 |
| th0br0 | villemv: hell yes! | 22:20 |
| th0br0 | i only haven't gotten them to actually reveal algorithms or code to me -- unfortunately. | 22:21 |
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| villemv | it's very subtle. some kind of scheme dialect | 22:22 |
| Stskeeps | RevdKathy: are you still a bit unsure about the whole situation btw? | 22:22 |
| th0br0 | never learned scheme, although i know that they're learning it at one of the universities i'm close to | 22:22 |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: hey | 22:22 |
| slaine_ | looking at vbox now | 22:22 |
| timeless | hi | 22:22 |
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| Suurorca | scheme is quite funny | 22:23 |
| RevdKathy | Stskeeps... deep down, yes. Trying to look enthusiastic. But we're losing a lot | 22:23 |
| RevdKathy | Stskeeps... that's just between us 417, isn't it? | 22:23 |
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| Stskeeps | RevdKathy: we're losing some but also gaining a lot - we're getting something in a very short timeframe we'd first be getting in the very long term | 22:23 |
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| Stskeeps | if we were to go in the traditional iterative pace | 22:24 |
| th0br0 | villemv: but it's a good idea... i should get 'em to tell me code. that'd be awesome. | 22:24 |
| RevdKathy | for the OS, yes. Maybe less for the devices and the community. Huge gain for the OS | 22:24 |
| th0br0 | what was the record? | 22:24 |
| Stskeeps | RevdKathy: from a developer point of view, it was a huge benefit to have many different device communities work together | 22:24 |
| RevdKathy | This is thoughtful: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=535152&postcount=79 | 22:25 |
| Stskeeps | as we had more in common than we were different | 22:25 |
| villemv | perhaps asking on meego-dev will help find likeminded people | 22:25 |
| RevdKathy | I think it's probably good for the developers - I hope so. In the end they're the drivers | 22:25 |
| polac | villemv, Hi, long time no see... :) | 22:25 |
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| RevdKathy | I'd love to have some real interaction with the moblin people | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | RevdKathy: i just spent an hour speaking w/ a moblin person | 22:26 |
| RevdKathy | right now, they run the infrastructure but they're invisible to us end-users | 22:26 |
| villemv | polac: uiq? | 22:26 |
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| RevdKathy | tthat's good. timeless_mbp. Was it helpful? | 22:26 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: what kind of interaction do you want? | 22:26 |
| Stskeeps | RevdKathy: my biggest worry until this morning was that this was a corporate run project without community in mind, until you end up talking to one of the 'dictators' (we need a better word) | 22:26 |
| timeless_mbp | RevdKathy: well, it's a start | 22:26 |
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| Stskeeps | RevdKathy: and we are starting to try and help the communication through a who's who as well | 22:27 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: I may count as a moblin person ;) | 22:27 |
| timeless_mbp | this is more about building relations than about anything else | 22:27 |
| villemv | polac: or am I stealing someone's nick? | 22:27 |
| arjan | (being someone who works on moblin and does a lot of the os level stuff) | 22:27 |
| Stskeeps | RevdKathy: http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who | 22:27 |
| polac | villemv, what does uiq mean? Like symbian uiq? | 22:27 |
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| RevdKathy | Really? Hello arjan. May I shake your hand? (virtually) | 22:27 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: lemme know if there's anything to know | 22:27 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: sure | 22:27 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm cloning moblin atm | 22:27 |
| villemv | polac: for a moment I was thinking whether you were one of the guys who worked at uiq. apparently not :-) | 22:27 |
| polac | villemv, no you are not. You probably just do not remember me anymore. | 22:27 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: if you have a set of questions we may want to do /msg since this is a busy channel | 22:28 |
| arjan | otherwise here is fine too with me | 22:28 |
| villemv | polac: I have only been using this nick for a few weeks actually | 22:28 |
| villemv | polac: so perhasp I am? | 22:28 |
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| villemv | in light of "long time no see" :-) | 22:28 |
| wazd | we found him! Start the fire! | 22:28 |
| wazd | :D | 22:28 |
| th0br0 | :P | 22:28 |
| th0br0 | burn the impostor | 22:28 |
| RevdKathy | Not really, arjan - it's more about just 'hanging out' - the community at maemo.org does that as well as actual business stuff | 22:29 |
| RevdKathy | it builds community | 22:29 |
| arjan | there's a bunch of us here | 22:29 |
| * RevdKathy shakes hands with any available moblin peoples | 22:29 | |
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| *** villemv is now known as villemv_fake | 22:29 | |
| wazd | arjan: you can save your soul by giving us the list with the names :P | 22:29 |
| Stskeeps | situation is a bit comparable to that of meeting people in a totally dark room, you know they might be there, but you're not sure who's who and where :) | 22:29 |
| slaine_ | BOO | 22:30 |
| * timeless_mbp grumbles | 22:30 | |
| arjan | Stskeeps: lets keep darkrooms out of this.. the mental picture is a bit... not what I want to think of right now ;) | 22:30 |
| arjan | wazd: I see Anaz and auke here for example | 22:30 |
| RevdKathy | Or even just a very big corporate event. Unless everyone is wearing name badges, you're lost | 22:31 |
| arjan | wazd: in terms if "A's" in the nic list | 22:31 |
| arjan | cworth | 22:31 |
| arjan | cwong | 22:31 |
| arjan | well there's a whole bunch more, no point naming them all I suspect.... ;) | 22:31 |
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| RevdKathy | so you guys are Mobline devs? | 22:31 |
| arjan | we also are timezone distributed; bunch of are in the UK, I and others are US westcoast | 22:32 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: especially as not everyone's got a cloak. | 22:32 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: yes | 22:32 |
| RevdKathy | :-) | 22:32 |
| Stskeeps | 'lo suihkulokki | 22:32 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: I work on moblin a lot, mostly overall architecture, boot time, performance, power management but well all over the map in practice | 22:32 |
| RevdKathy | You don't have ordinary end users, though do you. Our community has a lot of us (for good and ill!) | 22:32 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: i registered for a group on freenode | 22:32 |
| th0br0 | for meego? | 22:32 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: aye | 22:32 |
| th0br0 | can you do that? don't you normally have to supply them with far more information? | 22:33 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: it's more a corporate kind of community... so I think moblin and maemo are nicely complementary | 22:33 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: well, the community isn't exactly built up atm. | 22:33 |
| RevdKathy | How to the moblin peole feel about us spartan hordes? We're very noisy | 22:33 |
| CosmoHill | i'm installing windows movie maker and i swear SQL server CE just went by on the install screen... | 22:33 |
| * slaine_ jumps up and down | 22:33 | |
| slaine_ | I'm a Moblin user | 22:33 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: I don't mind noisy from people who contribute :) | 22:33 |
| Clay | me too | 22:33 |
| th0br0 | Yeah, Stskeeps | 22:33 |
| slaine_ | Ugh, that sounds like one of those crappy ads | 22:33 |
| CosmoHill | RevdKathy: you from meade? | 22:33 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: I do mind noisy from people who never contribute anything but are only loud and annoying ;) | 22:33 |
| CosmoHill | (the non moblin one) | 22:33 |
| wazd | arjan: ah, thank god I can talk loud then :D | 22:34 |
| CosmoHill | i should have just said nokia | 22:34 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: but it's important to get these things started already as well, we're a big channel already, big community :) | 22:34 |
| th0br0 | true. | 22:34 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: it seems that on monday we had mostly the former; while saner minds are now here | 22:34 |
| RevdKathy | Thanks arjan - that's the distinction I make. Though sometimes people make quite a lot of noise before they get around to contributing | 22:34 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: we should convince infobot to join us here :) | 22:34 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: true; sometimes. but sometimes it's just to be loud. | 22:34 |
| arjan | RevdKathy: I don't mind talking with loud people who are there to help/contribute/etc... I rather do not waste time with those who are just loud to be disruptive | 22:35 |
| arjan | (like we had a lot on monday here) | 22:35 |
| RevdKathy | I'd love to be able to create a structure that would... quieten... the disruptors | 22:35 |
| arjan | quite. | 22:35 |
| arjan | not easy though | 22:35 |
| jeremiah_ | I think a healthy debate is fine. | 22:35 |
| arjan | well it seems the disruptors mostly have gone away now.... time solved that for us | 22:36 |
| arjan | jeremiah_: oh absolutely. | 22:36 |
| RevdKathy | But we do like to have fun, too - there's a lot of playfulness at maemo.org | 22:36 |
| jeremiah_ | :) | 22:36 |
| RevdKathy | we still have a few | 22:36 |
| * RevdKathy counts on fingers the real pains | 22:36 | |
| Clay | a lot of the disruptors on monday i think were because with the announcement there were very few details | 22:36 |
| arjan | I'm an engineer. for me, at the end of the day, it needs to come down to something tangible as outcome | 22:36 |
| jeremiah_ | Its hard though, some of these things mean a lot for people | 22:36 |
| th0br0 | true Clay... and we still haven't really got much | 22:36 |
| jeremiah_ | People have a lot at stake. | 22:36 |
| arjan | Clay: if we had many details we'd have gotten "you have done EVERYTHING behind closed doors" instead | 22:37 |
| arjan | Clay: just cannot win | 22:37 |
| th0br0 | :D | 22:37 |
| arjan | th0br0/Clay: I may know many more details | 22:37 |
| arjan | if you have specific questions/etc I'm happy to try to answer/explain/etc | 22:37 |
| RevdKathy | that's very true: the decisions that were taken people dont like, then they complain that there is no direction on other things | 22:37 |
| th0br0 | well, there isn't really much that i want to know right now :) | 22:37 |
| arjan | there are some issues I cannot talk about (NDA, busines stuff bla bla) | 22:37 |
| arjan | but I'll let you know when that happens | 22:37 |
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| jeremiah_ | arjan: Are there plans for OBS? | 22:37 |
| th0br0 | basically all my questions have been answered so far... rpm, yum, obs, no upstream... | 22:37 |
| arjan | jeremiah_: as in "when will it go live" ? | 22:38 |
| th0br0 | my only question would be :when do we see code or a running system? ;) | 22:38 |
| Clay | arjan: maybe some would say that, but for the majority i dont think thats true. moblin has never really had a clear roadmap thats available to people outside the company | 22:38 |
| th0br0 | but then, i guess it'll be soon anyway. | 22:38 |
| jeremiah_ | arjan: I was thinking a bit more basic. :) | 22:38 |
| arjan | my current guess is 2 weeks from now | 22:38 |
| RST38h | you forgot lsb | 22:38 |
| RST38h | lsb is important | 22:38 |
| jeremiah_ | But I guess that answers my question | 22:38 |
| Clay | arjan: there isn't as much transparency as an open project should have | 22:38 |
| arjan | Clay: agreed. | 22:38 |
| th0br0 | Clay: maybe that will come with time. | 22:38 |
| jeremiah_ | Clay: What parts do you want open? | 22:38 |
| arjan | a lot of moblin also has been rather pragmatic "lets get stuff done" more than 3 year plans | 22:38 |
| arjan | (that then don't mean anything anyway) | 22:38 |
| th0br0 | but yeah... right now, this community exists solely on basis of the webpage and the announcement | 22:38 |
| RST38h | Screw transparency, fill up the web site with content at least | 22:39 |
| * cworth shakes hands back with RevdKathy | 22:39 | |
| Clay | RST38h: thats part of it | 22:39 |
| RevdKathy | Hi cworth :) | 22:39 |
| Clay | so many questions, not many answers | 22:39 |
| Clay | thus people making a rumble | 22:39 |
| arjan | anyway in terms of roadmap... we want a release out in "Q2" (assume somewhere in May, but this is still in flux) | 22:39 |
| RevdKathy | Where are most of the mobline people, btw? Maemo tends to be very eurocentric | 22:39 |
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| arjan | RevdKathy: we have a group in the UK, and the rest is westcoast US | 22:39 |
| polac | you people mentioned helping and contributing to meego. Is there allready something bite size to start with? Or should beginner like me wait until the 'infrastructured' is properly build? | 22:39 |
| RST38h | arjan: release for what hardware? | 22:40 |
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| arjan | RST38h: x86 netbook for sure, arm/phone is more likeyl a developer kind of thing | 22:40 |
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| arjan | (eg there will be stuff like that, but it's a different level of maturity) | 22:40 |
| RST38h | arjan: So, no N900 version? | 22:40 |
| arjan | RST38h: I doubt it'll work entirely perfect as a phone OS for n900 | 22:40 |
| RST38h | (because netbook version is kinda uninteresting, given Windows/Linux availability) | 22:41 |
| arjan | RST38h: but that also depends on how much others want to contribute to make it happen for n900 | 22:41 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: so, i'm looking for someone who runs dns for meego.com | 22:41 |
| RST38h | arjan: even something at the scale of Mer would be nice | 22:41 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: we made a ofono dialing on Mer on n900, shouldn't be that far off :) | 22:41 |
| arjan | timeless_mbp: I can get you in touch; msg me and I'll give you some email addresses | 22:41 |
| arjan | RST38h/Stskeeps: this is also where we need your help ;) | 22:44 |
| arjan | most of us moblin/intel guys don't tend to work on arm stuff | 22:44 |
| th0br0 | what about the nokia guys? | 22:44 |
| timeless_mbp | arjan: roughly i'd like to setup something like mxr.maemo.org | 22:44 |
| timeless_mbp | for meego | 22:44 |
| RST38h | is Nokia participating in MeeGo development at all? | 22:44 |
| timeless_mbp | th0br0: most of us nokia guys don't tend to work on intel stuff | 22:44 |
| RST38h | at the OS level I mean? | 22:44 |
| arjan | RST38h: yes | 22:44 |
| th0br0 | timeless_mbp: i was talking about the arm stuff | 22:44 |
| arjan | RST38h: but there's that maemo6 distraction for them as well | 22:44 |
| arjan | :) | 22:44 |
| RST38h | ah ok | 22:44 |
| RST38h | that explains it =) | 22:44 |
| pinchartl | arjan: distraction ? :-) | 22:44 |
| pinchartl | arjan: let's say instead that all the work done on Maemo6 will end up in MeeGo ;-) | 22:44 |
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| arjan | sure ;) | 22:44 |
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| arjan | but "next gen development" and "working on finishing a product" are different resource sinks | 22:44 |
| timeless_mbp | pinchartl: very funny | 22:44 |
| RST38h | pinchartl: Oh will it? | 22:44 |
| arjan | all OS vendors have that nice tension ;-) | 22:44 |
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| Stskeeps | arjan: a silly question, is moblin/meego currently built for ARM as well? | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | just wondering how big challenge things are atm | 22:44 |
| pinchartl | RST38h: everybody hates working on code that will be thrown away for the next version of the product, so I certainly hope most of the code will be useful :-) | 22:44 |
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| RST38h | pinchartl: "hope" or "know"? | 22:45 |
| arjan | Stskeeps: but hopefully enough that you can start working on it ;) | 22:45 |
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| Stskeeps | arjan: fair enough - the problem is really if we're going to spend months adding and patching the machine room or it's a matter of adding ARM support to imagers and so on | 22:46 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: we kinda got Moblin 2.2 live cd to boot on a plain /dev/fb0, if it helps | 22:46 |
| Stskeeps | machine room being the base libraries :) | 22:46 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: the cpu is still atom though | 22:46 |
| pinchartl | RST38h: hope. Maemo6 is huge, I don't know what all of its parts will become in MeeGo | 22:46 |
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| arjan | hopefully you guys get X working | 22:47 |
| arjan | without X it'll suck | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | ah, if it's at that layer than no issue | 22:47 |
| RST38h | as I said, the Developer Edition boots on the plain frame buffer | 22:47 |
| slaine_ | How does ARM handle the DRI2 layer ? | 22:47 |
| slaine_ | is that available ? | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | slaine_: welcome to the arm platform, where x86 sanity doesn't always exist :) | 22:47 |
| RST38h | hehe. | 22:47 |
| arjan | that's up to the people providing the graphics driver | 22:48 |
| RST38h | Forget DRI2. | 22:48 |
| Stskeeps | you're more likely to have custom libGLES and so on | 22:48 |
| slaine_ | so no kernel level drm for either then ? | 22:48 |
| arjan | in this case that's more likely a question for a nokia guy, not for me | 22:48 |
| Stskeeps | and maybe a fbdev with SGX acceleration in some areas | 22:48 |
| pinchartl | Stskeeps: packages might build on ARM, but integrating the platform-specific kernel drivers with the userspace software is complex and will take time | 22:48 |
| RST38h | arjan: That would be ImageTech and they do not normally provide shit | 22:48 |
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| suihkulokki | ie. just like GMA500... | 22:48 |
| pinchartl | slaine_: let me check | 22:48 |
| MelisU | arjan: Isn't the ARM side doomed because the gfx drivers are all closed? Moblin was always the newest kernel right? How is that going to work? | 22:49 |
| slaine_ | suihkulokki: don't mention the war | 22:49 |
| Stskeeps | MelisU: noone says there can't be closed userland libs and open kernel drivers | 22:49 |
| arjan | MelisU: powervr has no binary kerenl parts | 22:49 |
| arjan | only X | 22:49 |
| Stskeeps | or even closed pieces in a MeeGo system | 22:49 |
| arjan | afaik | 22:49 |
| arjan | life is always easier if you have open drivers | 22:49 |
| arjan | and personally, I'm happy for that | 22:49 |
| pinchartl | slaine_: on the N900 at least there's not DRI2, and the userspace part is closed-source if I'm not mistaken | 22:49 |
| suihkulokki | slaine_: sorry, just joined, no idea of what previously have been flamed here | 22:50 |
| Stskeeps | suihkulokki: besides RPM vs DEB, not much ;) | 22:50 |
| slaine_ | suihkulokki: was kinda joking, but gma500 makes me shudder | 22:50 |
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| slaine_ | unfortunately, it sounds just like where the n900 hardware is | 22:50 |
| ShadowJK | With powervr having the stronghold it has, I imagine the situation on ARM is pretty identical to the situation with x86 and gma500? | 22:50 |
| Stskeeps | pinchartl: the GLES libraries are closed source yes, but not xserver-xorg-video-fbdev | 22:50 |
| ShadowJK | yeah | 22:50 |
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| slaine_ | infact, didn't imagatech provide the 3d core for the gma500 too ? | 22:51 |
| pinchartl | Stskeeps: with GLES it's a bit pointless, isn't it ? | 22:51 |
| MelisU | Stskeeps: OK, but those binary parts need to keep up with the kernel and X .. that usually doesn't work so well | 22:51 |
| suihkulokki | Stskeeps: I expected that, that is why no joining earlier ;) | 22:51 |
| slaine_ | MelisU: which is exactly where pulsbo failed | 22:51 |
| Stskeeps | MelisU: actually it works kinda well if you don't toy around with switches | 22:51 |
| ShadowJK | MelisU, at the moment I think the missing touchscreen kernel in newer kernels is a bigger issue :D | 22:51 |
| arjan | MelisU: that'll depend on Nokia | 22:51 |
| arjan | (just like gma500 depends on intel) | 22:51 |
| pinchartl | to get the powervr driver open sourced we need to push hard enough. maybe the joint Nokia-Intel effort will have more influence than Nokia alone | 22:52 |
| RST38h | You will not get powervr driver open sourced. | 22:52 |
| slaine_ | Or intel alone | 22:52 |
| RST38h | forget it | 22:52 |
| Stskeeps | but yes, Nokia being 'the good hw vendor' in MeeGo will be interesting to see if happens | 22:52 |
| Stskeeps | (yes, i know imgtec is another company, but for other parts of the system, battery management, etc) | 22:52 |
| slaine_ | lol, it's good cop bad cop now is it | 22:53 |
| pinchartl | slaine_: it's always been good cop bad cop, but inside a single company until now | 22:53 |
| arjan | my personal goal is to make the intel side play as well as we can (and gma500 is "lalalalalala I can't hear you" '=) | 22:53 |
| slaine_ | rofl | 22:53 |
| arjan | and hopefully hw vendors realize that playing nice with meego in that regard is in their own business interest | 22:53 |
| suihkulokki | .o( we could just all buy imagenation stock until we have enough voting power together to force them to opensource the driver ) | 22:54 |
| slaine_ | +1 | 22:54 |
| RST38h | not imagetech, I guess | 22:54 |
| MelisU | gma500: Intel was young and needed the money :P | 22:54 |
| slaine_ | lol | 22:54 |
| pinchartl | arjan: it will be easier for Intel, as the same company develops the OS and the GPU. on the powervr side we'll have much more troubles | 22:54 |
| slaine_ | I don't that powervr stuff was isolated to the gma500 though | 22:55 |
| slaine_ | isn't there a new generation gpu with the same licensing issues ? | 22:55 |
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| RST38h | slaine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA | 22:55 |
| * timeless_mbp sighs | 22:55 | |
| arjan | pinchartl: you have no idea how much pain pvr gives me day to day... | 22:55 |
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| timeless_mbp | my computer ran out of space | 22:55 |
| MisterN | timeless_mbp: you actually work for nokia? i only know you from your rants in #jsapi | 22:56 |
| arjan | pinchartl: all the more reason to show how easy it COULD be ;) | 22:56 |
| timeless_mbp | MisterN: yes | 22:56 |
| RST38h | slaine: I guess you mean GMA3150 | 22:56 |
| timeless_mbp | i haven't always worked for nokia | 22:56 |
| ShadowJK | moblin+maemo=meego thing piqued my interest in meego, which amusingly makes me far less interested in the Nokia Booklet 3g (gma500) :D | 22:56 |
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| Stskeeps | ah, nice - quim just said they're bringing core and middleware people to meego | 22:58 |
| MelisU | yeah, Meego may have a lot of rough edges for some time, but I think it will be worth it and people will be interested | 22:58 |
| leinir | Stskeeps: Nicely :) | 22:58 |
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| slaine_ | RST38h: yeah, possbily, I find the naming hard to penetrate | 22:59 |
| RST38h | slaine: The wiki page makes it kinda clear | 22:59 |
| MelisU | Moblin was seen as Intel and Maemo as Nokia .. Now they should get all the Genivi guys on the homepage (like BMW etc). That would help even more | 22:59 |
| MelisU | BMW joins the Linux Foundation would be a cool headline | 22:59 |
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| Suurorca | the booklet (capabilities aside) is quite nice, actually | 23:00 |
| Suurorca | toyed with one for a few minutes today | 23:00 |
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| slaine_ | I've got too many kids hanging out of me to read it properly now RST38h | 23:03 |
| slaine_ | bed times, bbs | 23:03 |
| Suurorca | but obviously more or a mac-ish fashion accessory than direct competition for the cheaper netbooks | 23:03 |
| Suurorca | nights | 23:03 |
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| th0br0 | I'm out, bye everyone. | 23:14 |
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| CosmoHill | cyas | 23:15 |
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| slaine_ | back | 23:20 |
| CosmoHill | front | 23:20 |
| slaine_ | RST38h: No, the 3150 isn't it, that's the embedded gfx in the latest CPU's | 23:20 |
| slaine_ | with is basically a 965 | 23:20 |
| slaine_ | s/with/which | 23:20 |
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| villemv_fake | is meego ok with GPL3 gcc versions btw? | 23:27 |
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| Stskeeps | villemv_fake: gcc isn't traditionally shipped on devices though? but yes, this policy is going to hurt at times :P | 23:28 |
| * villemv_fake is hoping to "some day" see c++0x | 23:28 | |
| villemv_fake | Stskeeps: apple has an issue with that. I don't think that makes any sense either | 23:28 |
| villemv_fake | Stskeeps: obviously I mean "using gpl3 for build tools" | 23:28 |
| Stskeeps | villemv_fake: i think they want to see more cases related to gpl3 and how it's interpreted | 23:29 |
| Stskeeps | company cautiousness | 23:29 |
| villemv_fake | so does the same thing apply for meego then? | 23:29 |
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| detective_ | deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb | 23:30 |
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| MisterN | rpm rpm rpm rpm | 23:30 |
| detective_ | :D | 23:30 |
| CosmoHill | virgins you say? | 23:30 |
| CosmoHill | oh crap, my laptop is 68'C | 23:31 |
| crashanddie | well, I thought the whole rpm v deb discussion was pretty moot | 23:31 |
| crashanddie | CosmoHill: 68 minutes? | 23:31 |
| CosmoHill | ? | 23:31 |
| crashanddie | " is seconds, ' is minutes... | 23:31 |
| detective_ | deb? or rpm? | 23:32 |
| Stskeeps | villemv_fake: there's a policy stated somewhere about licensing regarding gplv3 | 23:32 |
| CosmoHill | degrees Celsius | 23:32 |
| simula_ | Kelvin! | 23:32 |
| crashanddie | CosmoHill: there's no apostrophe in the celsius notation ;) | 23:32 |
| detective_ | deb? or rpm? | 23:32 |
| CosmoHill | well i can't be botherd to learn the degree button | 23:33 |
| crashanddie | CosmoHill: that's my point, the English keyboard doesn't have it, so just don't use it | 23:33 |
| Hydroxide | CosmoHill: on my desktop it's <compose key> o o :) | 23:33 |
| Stskeeps | detective_: go read the logs, there's plenty of discussions in this area :) | 23:33 |
| detective_ | Stskeeps: and what are the results? | 23:33 |
| Hydroxide | CosmoHill: -40°F = -40°C | 23:33 |
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| CosmoHill | ˙ | 23:33 |
| crashanddie | detective_: no results | 23:33 |
| Hydroxide | (yes, english keyboard) | 23:33 |
| CosmoHill | alt + h | 23:33 |
| crashanddie | detective_: only trouble | 23:33 |
| detective_ | mh : / | 23:34 |
| crashanddie | CosmoHill: not really the right one | 23:34 |
| crashanddie | Hydroxide: if you find it for my mac, yell | 23:34 |
| detective_ | and which packagemanager will be choosen? zypper or yum or what? | 23:34 |
| crashanddie | detective_: please go read the logs | 23:34 |
| crashanddie | detective_: and don't try starting another flamewar here, thanks | 23:35 |
| detective_ | uhm... okay o_O | 23:35 |
| CosmoHill | if that why we have a logger? so we don't have to answer the rpm vs deb debate every 30 mins? | 23:35 |
| Stskeeps | detective_: i -think- zypper but don't hang me up on that | 23:35 |
| Stskeeps | CosmoHill: we should have had one from minute zero in this channel, to document early discussions | 23:35 |
| detective_ | Stskeeps: okay thanks | 23:35 |
| crashanddie | Stskeeps: we'll hang you for anything | 23:35 |
| CosmoHill | Stskeeps: well we have one now | 23:36 |
| Stskeeps | CosmoHill: yes, thank god :P | 23:36 |
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| villemv_fake | this is the stuff we want meego on (now android): http://notionink.in/index.php | 23:46 |
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| * CosmoHill can see this happening | 23:47 | |
| CosmoHill | I love adam! | 23:47 |
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| CosmoHill | the table computer i mean... | 23:47 |
| villemv_fake | right. It's happening all over the place now | 23:47 |
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| CosmoHill | that would be cool | 23:48 |
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| CosmoHill | ooo, matte screen | 23:51 |
| tripz0 | adam actually looks pretty nice | 23:52 |
| tripz0 | 1080p | 23:52 |
| CosmoHill | hdmi output | 23:52 |
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| villemv_fake | can't imagine a better way to vacuum some VC money than promising to deliver a table this year ;-) | 23:56 |
| CosmoHill | VC? | 23:57 |
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| villemv_fake | venture capital | 23:57 |
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| CosmoHill | ah | 23:57 |
| tripz0 | MSI also had an nvidia tegra based tablet shown off at CES. not to many ever saw it though | 23:57 |
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| CosmoHill | that reminds me, i need to find my business study books | 23:57 |
| jebba | My understanding is that moblin used OBS for building and that is what meego will use. Anyone know if their build machine runs fedora, suse, centos, etc? Which? | 23:58 |
| tripz0 | arjan knows | 23:58 |
| jeremiah_ | hey jebba | 23:58 |
| jebba | heya :) | 23:58 |
| jebba | arjan knows everything, methinks ;) | 23:58 |
| CosmoHill | i think it's fedora or ubuntu | 23:58 |
| tripz0 | my bet is fedora | 23:58 |
| mikeleib | it's true | 23:58 |
| jebba | CosmoHill: would likely be fedora then, because there aren't ubuntu packages for OBS... | 23:59 |
| mikeleib | the part about arjan knowing everything, that is | 23:59 |
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| CosmoHill | what is the build enviroment? i think i might be able to do it with clfs | 23:59 |
| tripz0 | i don't doubt it | 23:59 |
| jebba | I looked into it a few weeks ago and it seems upstream just packaged for opensuse and centos. | 23:59 |
| jebba | clfs? | 23:59 |
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