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| mgedmin | Stskeeps, irc logs are at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/, as requested | 16:42 |
|---|---|---|
| mgedmin | you may want to put that link into the /topic | 16:42 |
| Stskeeps | thanks | 16:42 |
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| *** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/" | 16:42 | |
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| w00t | w00t | 16:42 |
| w00t | not self-referencing, cheering | 16:43 |
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| * Corsac w00ts w00t | 16:48 | |
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| javispedro | logs!, good. thanks mgedmin. | 17:18 |
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| BBNS | Bonjour! | 17:33 |
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| savasten | hello | 17:34 |
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| twoboxen | hello all | 17:38 |
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| Jaffa | The upstream/no-upstream shoe seems to have dropped on the mailing list... | 18:02 |
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| w00t | Jaffa: indeed | 18:04 |
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| javispedro | crazyness! | 18:04 |
| * w00t is wondering if he did the right thing in stirring up so much shit | 18:04 | |
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| * javispedro ponders if maemo is really based on debian | 18:06 | |
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| javispedro | or if it "maemo's upstream" is debian. | 18:06 |
| slaine_ | I stopped reading the thread yesterday, it was giving me nose bleeds | 18:06 |
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| javispedro | considering most tools haven't updated since etch days and there are tools from sarge days still. | 18:06 |
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| w00t | javispedro: maemo is hardly a gleaming example for how to do things, yes | 18:07 |
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| leinir | slaine_: http://www.thestupiditburns.com/ ? ;) | 18:08 |
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| slaine_ | leinir: lmao, bookmarked | 18:08 |
| leinir | *giggles* :) | 18:09 |
| leinir | 'tis a good one :) | 18:09 |
| slaine_ | that sums it up nicely | 18:09 |
| slaine_ | I've been thinking of adding a filter for that thread/topic | 18:09 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: But that's a good thing as it gives us experience of what went wrong with Maemo. "Well, we don't want to base of an old upstream" shouldn't *necessarily* lead to a "so we'll do it all from scratch" conclusion. | 18:10 |
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| w00t | +1 | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: It is very hard to keep up to date all the time. | 18:11 |
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| X-Fade | Especially when packages aren't API stable etc. | 18:11 |
| sharpneli | And the more you allow yourself to be left behind the harder it'll be to catch up again. Eventually ending as Maemo is nowadays. | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | Yes, that is the other end of the spectrum ;) | 18:12 |
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| Jaffa | X-Fade: Indeed, but having tried building my own distribution you spend *ages* on stuff which isn't actually adding value to the fact of shipping the software to do the thing you wanted. | 18:14 |
| Jaffa | It'd be interesting to know how many staff Nokia had maintaining Nokia's old (forks, effectively) Debian packages. | 18:14 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Just grep on emails then :) | 18:14 |
| javispedro | "maintain-ah-what?" | 18:15 |
| sharpneli | Jaffa: I have a hunch you dont want to know the real answer :/ | 18:15 |
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| X-Fade | You don't control API changes in 'upstream' libs, but you do have to work with the fallout ;) | 18:15 |
| lardman | hmm, community could keep the packages up to date, and that's what happens with the other lot isn't it? | 18:16 |
| X-Fade | And upstream might not care about breakage. | 18:16 |
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| lardman | the issue here is stability, which won't be affected; you'll still want to fix on some set of packages and need testing to progress beyond them | 18:16 |
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| X-Fade | lardman: It all depends on how long that freeze will be and how much testing is needed. | 18:17 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: If you repackage a tarball, or you copy a source RPM/Debian package - if you want to upgrade to the newest upstream you've got work to do. | 18:17 |
| X-Fade | If for instance Harmattan was started 1 year ago, the freeze would probably already have happened then. | 18:17 |
| Jaffa | sharpneli: I do, it's either "lots" and so we've been shielded from the frantic peddling or "none" which means Nokia haven't anyone skilled to donate who used to do this ;-) | 18:18 |
| X-Fade | What to do in the mean time ;) | 18:18 |
| w00t | "panic" would be the easy alternative | 18:18 |
| tackat_ | Don't Panic | 18:19 |
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| sharpneli | You have a point there. | 18:19 |
| * tackat_ takes his towel and leaves the planet. | 18:19 | |
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| X-Fade | Jaffa: You have no idea how many people are involved. | 18:20 |
| tackat_ | Will be back on this Marble later ;) | 18:20 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: It really not is 10 guys in a room somewhere :D | 18:20 |
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| Jaffa | X-Fade: Isn't that why I used a question mark? :-p | 18:22 |
| Jaffa | And if it is lots of people, are they going to be working on MeeGo on packaging; or is Nokia hoping to move them onto other projects? | 18:22 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Actually, let me do a db selection ;) | 18:22 |
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| slaine_ | almost commute time, I'll catch you guys later | 18:24 |
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| trip0 | Jaffa, that's a good question. | 18:24 |
| Jaffa | "Being upstream" is lots of work with either investment in tooling or investment in processes. If MeeGo will have those resource to make it work, that's fantastic. | 18:24 |
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| X-Fade | Jaffa: It will probably be a shared thing. | 18:25 |
| trip0 | it was a shared thing | 18:25 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Moblin has maintainers now for things they use. So for everything else there need to be new ones. | 18:25 |
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| trip0 | with upstream debian | 18:25 |
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| Jaffa | X-Fade: But a lot of the points about having an "upstream" is that it also eases developer pain (cos a library's already packaged). Again, tooling can help, but that's more investment in things which aren't delivering a next-gen multi-purpose, multi-device user environment. | 18:27 |
| Jaffa | So it's a costs/benefits thing | 18:27 |
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| X-Fade | Jaffa: Sure, but you can start with taking a fedora package and then modify it to your needs. | 18:27 |
| X-Fade | And then continue to be the upstream distro. | 18:28 |
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| X-Fade | But the tooling switch is a real cost. | 18:28 |
| X-Fade | And a learning curve too. | 18:29 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: But there's talk of *not* taking Fedora packages as a base. | 18:29 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: What tooling switch? | 18:29 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Really does not matter. You'd only take the spec to see what others do. | 18:29 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Remember that all Nokia maintainers only know deb inside out. | 18:30 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: So if you want them on board, they need to relearn. | 18:30 |
| javispedro | what? you're having a sane discussion? just keep saying that we need to base on slackware. | 18:30 |
| X-Fade | And there are tons of tools now used for SDK testing etc. All need to be rewritten or at least replaced. | 18:31 |
| * w00t hms at meego-dev | 18:32 | |
| Jaffa | Sure. But unless the existing people working on Moblin being maintainers are happy with "maintaining the plumbing base packages for MeeGo and any library that an app dev may want", *someone* is going to have to learn or *someone* is going to have to spend time making the tools to make such maintenance as straightforward as possible. | 18:32 |
| * ml-mobile keeps deleting rpm/deb messages | 18:32 | |
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| X-Fade | Jaffa: Sure. | 18:32 |
| X-Fade | Remember that all this upstream maintaining doesn't add one line of code the end-user sees ;) | 18:33 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: That's my point ;-) | 18:33 |
| X-Fade | Indeed. | 18:33 |
| Jaffa | Time spent on packaging or packaging tooling, is time away from actual platform development or application development. | 18:34 |
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| Jaffa | Bah, missing comma before "or" | 18:34 |
| * javispedro notes a post to debian-devel where someone already suggested a new "Debian Mobile" distro for N900-like devices | 18:34 | |
| w00t | javispedro: crossposted to meego-dev now | 18:34 |
| lardman | cu later chaps | 18:34 |
| bfree | javispedro: I was typing something about that ;-) | 18:34 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: So the problem I see with this switch is that we will probably have another big gap between releases like we had with fremantle and Harmattan. | 18:34 |
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| X-Fade | And there the switch was only Qt ;) | 18:35 |
| javispedro | w00t: ah, so it's under flame attack already I guess. | 18:35 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Yup. | 18:35 |
| bfree | jak's mail is the most interesting, cross-posted from debian-devel and basically suggesting working with meego so it's code can be used to build a "Debian Mobile Pure Blend" (pure blend meaning all the packages would be in Debian) | 18:35 |
| w00t | javispedro: tbh, I hope not, it doesn't seem all that insane | 18:35 |
| juliank | bfree: You perfectly summarized my email. | 18:35 |
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| X-Fade | Anyway, MeeGo prepare dinner. | 18:36 |
| * Hydroxide likes juliank's idea, though some packages might not meet DFSG | 18:36 | |
| Hydroxide | X-Fade: haha that's a great meme :) | 18:36 |
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| juliank | Hydroxide: IIRC, It was announced that all packages on meego.com will be free software | 18:37 |
| Hydroxide | juliank: by whose definition? I hope it's all DFSG-free, but e.g. they might make exceptions for drivers like Ubuntu does | 18:38 |
| juliank | Hydroxide: IIRC, they said open source, so I guess Open Source Definition. | 18:38 |
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| LuciusMare | hi | 18:39 |
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| juliank | buxy suggested to form a Debian working group, not sure about that one, though. | 18:39 |
| Hydroxide | juliank: btw, the name "pure blend" still sounds self-contradictory to every native english speaker :) | 18:40 |
| * w00t grins | 18:41 | |
| juliank | Hydroxide: I didn't invent the name. | 18:41 |
| lbt | sounds like a cheap instant coffee advert | 18:41 |
| itdock | hahah | 18:41 |
| sharpneli | Due to FCC regulations it's not possible to completely opensource all parts of radio hardware drivers. So in the end meego wont be providing complete distribution if they indeed hold the 'only opensource' decision. | 18:42 |
| w00t | at a guess, hw drivers will still end up coming from vendors | 18:42 |
| glp | juliank: reading the text, it states OSI compliant -> in such a way that the licenses of all API components and also selected technology framework components must enable linking of proprietary components or plugins | 18:42 |
| w00t | (or at least some of them) | 18:43 |
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| itdock | seems to me the hardware vendors will be charged with providing the necessary kernel modules and driver support for their hardware platform | 18:44 |
| itdock | whereas the rest of it will be open source... as in you could take a generic device that has support as part of the mainline kernel and run it without issues | 18:44 |
| bfree | sharpneli: authoritative link for the above (FCC)? For a long long time such statements were spouted about wifi but I think atheros, for one, have solidly disproved that (see e.g. ath5k and the ISC licensed firmware sources they released) | 18:45 |
| glp | Hydroxide: hi | 18:46 |
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| Hydroxide | glp: hi | 18:46 |
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| juliank | sharpneli: If it's only firmware which can be load at runtime, we can ship it in non-free; so this wouldn't be a problem for us, as long as we have the right to distribute it. | 18:47 |
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| juliank | Binary only modules would not be possible, though. | 18:47 |
| juliank | (the nvidia way may still work, though) | 18:47 |
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| Hydroxide | bfree: I haven't seen any authoritative evidence of that either, though I've heard many people assert it | 18:48 |
| sharpneli | bfree: Hooray for that. I certainly hope that it's so. | 18:48 |
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| sharpneli | It's not explicitly forbidden ofcourse. Iirc it's based on the issue that with opensource drivers changing the parameters (e.g transmission power) would become 'too easy'. | 18:49 |
| juliank | Releasing the source outside the U.S. also works very well. | 18:50 |
| Hydroxide | it's also possible that the FCC rules have changed since then, or else that lawyers were being unnecessarily cautious | 18:50 |
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| Hydroxide | juliank: well, all the companies want their stuff approved in the US and have US business dealings - intel is even based here, and even Debian has significant US ties. but... I think other countries may have had similar rules, too, not just the US | 18:51 |
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| sharpneli | Yeah. The skill difference between changing the opensource drivers and reverse-engineering closed drivers is nowhere near the skillgap between normal user and a programmer. | 18:51 |
| sharpneli | So it very well could be overcautious lawyers and no-one willing to risk their chances of getting approved. | 18:52 |
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| bfree | hehe, I wonder who will decide what will be required to be allowed to use meego in marketing etc. (assuming it's a trademark). What if any non-free stuff can you include? Would be nice to stop all but the free devices from using the name (maybe a redistributable firmware usable with upstream kernels should be ok, maybe not) | 19:02 |
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| bfree | http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/Intel-WiMAX-Binary-Supplicant-1.4.0.2-4.1.moblin2.src.rpm Should this be in a meego/moblin repo (quick search attempt failed to find a prior flamewar) | 19:19 |
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| auke | bfree: it's free-to-distribute, same as most linux firmware | 19:27 |
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| juliank | auke: It runs on the host CPU, and is thus different from firmware which runs on the card. | 19:29 |
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| auke | agreed. it's certainly an odd one, but it beats not having wimax at all. | 19:30 |
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| juliank | auke: No chance to get rid of it sometime, like it happened with the WiFi drivers? | 19:33 |
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| juliank | But anyway, I don't care about WiMAX | 19:34 |
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| bfree | To me it's inclusion or exclusion from the meego repo would be a pretty good definition of the Freedom of meego | 19:35 |
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| simula_ | does WiMAX reception power hungry compared to 3G? | 19:35 |
| simula_ | does / is | 19:36 |
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| juliank | bfree: "its", not "it's", or am I missing something? | 19:36 |
| bfree | juliank: bah, my fingers just seem trained to type ' and I don't notice ;-) | 19:36 |
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| juliank | bfree: No problem, I just like to correct spelling mistakes. | 19:37 |
| LondonBenji | especially on the N900 that troublesome '! | 19:38 |
| bzhb | On "MeeGo Architecture" diagram there is a big blue empty square at the top labelled "Other UX's"... Is it reasonable to imagine to fill that with a "MeeGo Desktop UX" that would basically be a KDE flavour, or is it too much beyond the scope of MeeGo ? | 19:38 |
| juliank | bzhb: It's magic. | 19:39 |
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| juliank | LondonBenji: This should read "that's troublesome", shouldn't it? | 19:40 |
| robsta | bzhb: i guess it's rather unlikely since it's hard to earn money with a desktop distribution | 19:41 |
| juliank | But enough | 19:41 |
| bfree | http://linuxwimax.org/Overview "Some user space required components are in binary form, due to current limitations. Intel is working on open sourcing the code in the near future." For certain definitions of "near future" perhaps but not mine as it's been there a year or more I guess | 19:41 |
| bfree | oh look, there is that it's again :-p stupid fingers/brain | 19:42 |
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| juliank | bfree: Well, the "it's" is "it has" there, so it's OK. But would also just write it is,it has,etc. all the time. | 19:43 |
| bzhb | robsta: an other way to present the question is : Would the repos be sufficiently open so that the community can add a "Desktop UX" that fit quite well with rest of the platform. | 19:44 |
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| robsta | bzhb: that questions of "universe" repos etc has been asked many times already | 19:46 |
| robsta | we don't have an answer yet | 19:46 |
| bzhb | ok, I'll wait then ;-) | 19:46 |
| robsta | the whole infrastructure is being set up | 19:47 |
| robsta | give it some time | 19:47 |
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| xxiao | i nearly saw none at moblin channel before, so...everyone here is from maemo I assume? | 19:48 |
| robsta | xxiao: there are some mobliners too | 19:48 |
| xxiao | considering maemo had more followers can we use deb instead of rpm for meego? | 19:49 |
| robsta | no | 19:49 |
| LondonBenji | I lol'd. | 19:49 |
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| xxiao | after so many years i still feel intel had no clue for embedded space, sigh | 19:50 |
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| ShadowJK | xxiao: I think most are N900 owners that went 'wtf' in panic at the sudden vague announcement, thinking it'd have some immediate rreprecussions for the n900 | 20:00 |
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| Suurorca | actually I just got curious ;p | 20:02 |
| simula_ | shadowjk... i think a chunk of the n900 owners are devs and they went wtf does this mean for future development :) | 20:02 |
| ShadowJK | that too :) | 20:02 |
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| bspencer2 | ShadowJK, is n900 the latest shipping maemo-based device? | 20:04 |
| microlith | it is | 20:05 |
| * microlith interjects! | 20:05 | |
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| thiago | dirkhh: ping | 20:06 |
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| bspencer2 | microlith, so what are the big diffs from n900 based device to meego? | 20:06 |
| dirkhh | pong | 20:06 |
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| microlith | from what I see, mostly packaging and multiple architectures | 20:06 |
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| microlith | both are going tob e Qt based | 20:07 |
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| bspencer | microlith, yeah, that's my understanding too. I was really into the n700 early on but have lost touch with the progress | 20:08 |
| microlith | more interesting is the whole community-repo aspect, plus the openeness with which maemo has been associated (root out of the box, user community) | 20:08 |
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| microlith | eh, N900 is my first Maemo device | 20:08 |
| bspencer | true -- hopefully meego can duplicate some of that great community involvement, garage, etc. | 20:08 |
| X-Fade | bspencer: That is the idea at least. | 20:09 |
| microlith | the trick will be getting device vendors to hop on that | 20:09 |
| bspencer | does n900 use hildon framework still? I saw a screenshot and it looked like the UI stuff handn't change radically | 20:09 |
| microlith | bspencer: it does | 20:09 |
| xxiao | if intel is going to take the lead(my friend works there on moblin) i'm afraid the community will die away, there is no way intel can copy android,it's a culture thing i guess | 20:09 |
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| ShadowJK | maemo is x86 too, it's how the "sdk" works | 20:09 |
| bspencer | xxiao, it is a challenge for us to be sure (I work at intel) | 20:10 |
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| bspencer | but both nokia and intel struggle with the corporate vs. open side. We've made strides | 20:10 |
| bspencer | we have high ambitions in the open source group :) | 20:10 |
| bzhb | The fact that MeeGo is hosted by the Linux Foundation is the best assurance of openness we have at the momoent | 20:10 |
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| microlith | what intel campus is the whole moblin/meego thing based at? | 20:10 |
| * microlith used to be at the folsom campus | 20:10 | |
| bspencer | microlith, it is spread across a few: oregon, china, europe | 20:11 |
| xxiao | i know intel hired lots of great hackers, but it's like put tiger/lions into cages | 20:11 |
| microlith | ok, so north of here | 20:11 |
| bspencer | xxiao, maybe true in part ... but not as bad as some companies | 20:11 |
| auke | all the code is open, the distro runs on generic boxes and all the build tools are available | 20:11 |
| simula_ | xxiao... i think that's a metaphor for gainful employment ;) | 20:11 |
| auke | it's not like we lock it all up | 20:11 |
| bzhb | there is also :http://meego.com/about/governance | 20:11 |
| auke | also, we send patches to upstream projects as much as we can | 20:12 |
| auke | all our own projects are publically available in git | 20:12 |
| microlith | auke: no one suggested as such, but it's vendors downstream that adopt | 20:12 |
| microlith | what they do and their participation | 20:12 |
| bspencer | bzhb yeah. "governance" is a tricky thing. you have to have control to ensure good direction but provide community with strong involvement and influence | 20:13 |
| SoLo | willl there be easy solution to sync and stream media say from a MeeGo netbook to a MeeGo tablet/smartphone out the box | 20:13 |
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| xxiao | anyone knows why moblin switched away from ubuntu to fedora | 20:15 |
| auke | blue looked nicer | 20:15 |
| auke | than brown | 20:15 |
| simula_ | heh | 20:15 |
| javispedro | also ubuntu sounds like some disease | 20:15 |
| javispedro | fedora sounds muuuch better. | 20:16 |
| MisterN | also blue is the intel color | 20:16 |
| Suurorca | it does, doesn't it | 20:16 |
| Corsac | auke: but xubuntu is not brown! | 20:16 |
| MisterN | Corsac: green is not the intel color either | 20:16 |
| arjan | xxiao: frankly | 20:16 |
| bspencer | xxiao, we like to wait for "yum search" to refresh the repository list before finding things | 20:16 |
| arjan | xxiao: doing "ubuntu wuith some changes" did not work | 20:17 |
| RST38h | javispedro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi-go | 20:17 |
| Corsac | MisterN: xubuntu isn't exactly green | 20:17 |
| arjan | xxiao: but moblin did NOT move to fedora | 20:17 |
| arjan | xxiao: please stop saying that... it's just not true | 20:17 |
| RST38h | javispedro: A picture is worth a thousand words | 20:17 |
| javispedro | RST38h: hehe, I saw that on slashdot :) | 20:17 |
| auke | moblin is based on aukeOS | 20:17 |
| SpeedEvil | Surely something like #AAAA20 is not the IBM colour? | 20:17 |
| arjan | we build moblin from the ground up, even though we borrowed some pieces from fedora and suse | 20:17 |
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| SpeedEvil | err | 20:18 |
| xxiao | arjan, what are the pkgs in moblin based off? upstream original source tarballs? redhat srpm? debian pkgs? | 20:18 |
| SpeedEvil | s/ibm/intel/ | 20:18 |
| SpeedEvil | and meh | 20:18 |
| Corsac | MisterN: http://www.xubuntu.org/tour is kind-of blue :) | 20:18 |
| arjan | xxiao: mostly upstream tarbals; but for some stuff we borrow from fedora, for others we borrow from suse | 20:18 |
| Corsac | xxiao: upstream, directly | 20:18 |
| Corsac | xxiao: it was yelled in every language the world has on the mailing list and here, btw | 20:19 |
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| Corsac | xxiao: you might want to take a look at Moblin srpms to be sure, though | 20:19 |
| xxiao | will meego have a webpage describing how to build everything from source, like other project does? | 20:19 |
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| xxiao | by the way meego reminds me of meebo | 20:20 |
| arjan | xxiao: our buildsystem does that all the time.. and there'll be docs for that | 20:20 |
| X-Fade | xxiao: I'm sure the goal is not to make it as hard as possible :) | 20:20 |
| xxiao | the problem is so far it's _your_ buildsystem, what we have is a sdk | 20:21 |
| jku_ | xxiao, it's been two days... | 20:21 |
| simula_ | xxiao... v1 release is second half of 2010 | 20:21 |
| auke | Corsac: good point. we will now upstream to xubuntu | 20:21 |
| simula_ | xxiao... are you a dev? | 20:21 |
| MisterN | arjan: btw do you have simulators for running meego/moblin on simulated handhelds / foobar? | 20:21 |
| RST38h | USPTO just granted a fairly broad Apple patent on capacitive multitouch displays. US Patent #7,663,607 describes a "transparent capacitive sensing medium configured to detect multiple touches" by way of two sandwiched layers of conductive lines hooked up to an appropriate circuit, and also covers a specific type of multitouch display with a similar two-layer capacitive sensor made of glass. | 20:21 |
| xxiao | simula, yes | 20:22 |
| arjan | xxiao: how much maemo stuff have you done? | 20:22 |
| simula_ | xxiao, are you gtk or qt or something else? | 20:22 |
| arjan | MisterN: mostly I think this uses that "X inside X" thing | 20:22 |
| xxiao | not really, mostly kernel work, u-boot, then openwrt and now a bit android | 20:22 |
| robsta | arjan: xephyr? | 20:23 |
| arjan | robsta: yeah that one | 20:23 |
| RST38h | MisterN: Both Moblin host and guest are i386, so simulation makes no sense | 20:23 |
| simula_ | ahhh | 20:23 |
| SoLo | most apples multi-touch patents wont stand up in court which is why most only get granted patents in US | 20:23 |
| MisterN | RST38h: well, or virtualisation.. | 20:23 |
| RST38h | You can think of it as Maemo i386 target | 20:23 |
| RST38h | \ | 20:23 |
| arjan | qemu is quite nifty too | 20:23 |
| MisterN | like VirtualBox or vmware | 20:23 |
| MisterN | or qemu | 20:23 |
| arjan | qemu can even do arm-on-x86 | 20:24 |
| xxiao | yes run moblin in vm is great, last time i tried it did not boot well | 20:24 |
| arjan | for netbook, yeah don't do a VM | 20:24 |
| RST38h | arjan: Hello. Meet Maemo Scratchbox. | 20:24 |
| MisterN | arjan: but qemu doesn't simulate phone hardware | 20:24 |
| arjan | for handset, different storty | 20:24 |
| arjan | yeah I know | 20:24 |
| arjan | it's up to device manufacturer to give an emulator | 20:24 |
| arjan | or just send lots of seed hw out ;-) | 20:24 |
| robsta | MisterN, xxiao: qemu support is being worked on, with hw acceleration i mean | 20:25 |
| RST38h | arjan: So, does Moblin use a chrooted ienvironment on the dev machine or are you supposed to simply cross compile? | 20:25 |
| MisterN | arjan: i don't really think the device manufactures are capable of making a decent emulator. | 20:25 |
| robsta | MisterN, xxiao: the pieces are there in poky | 20:25 |
| arjan | RST38h: we have chroot tools etc | 20:25 |
| arjan | cross compile sucks; we don't do that | 20:25 |
| RST38h | ok | 20:25 |
| xxiao | Rob`foo, i almost forgot, where does poky stand now | 20:25 |
| RST38h | arjan: Will Ubuntu do as a host? | 20:25 |
| arjan | (esp x86->x86 cross is evil, no way to detect missed cross compile health) | 20:25 |
| arjan | RST38h: I know people who do that | 20:25 |
| arjan | chroot is chroot | 20:26 |
| RST38h | ok | 20:26 |
| * RST38h isn't installing RedHat. Anywhere. | 20:26 | |
| robsta | xxiao: it's still being maintained but it's not building the netbook images | 20:26 |
| Corsac | RST38h: even if Meego is downstream of redhat? woooops | 20:26 |
| robsta | xxiao: but it's got the bits needed (patched qemu, gl-passthru) | 20:26 |
| trip0 | Corsac, everyone is downstream from redhat at some point | 20:27 |
| trip0 | redhat devs a lot of upstream projects everyone uses | 20:27 |
| Corsac | good point | 20:27 |
| Corsac | trip0: kernel and glibc, for example :) | 20:27 |
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| RST38h | Corsac: RedHat has been non-stop trouble for me. | 20:27 |
| arjan | Corsac: meego is not a downstream of Red Hat. | 20:28 |
| arjan | Corsac: please dont' spread fiction | 20:28 |
| xxiao | robsta, nice, thanks for the info. | 20:28 |
| RST38h | Corsac: So I certainly hope Meego will stay as far from it as possible | 20:28 |
| Corsac | arjan: sorry, it was just a joke :) | 20:28 |
| jacquesdupontd_ | hey everybody | 20:28 |
| robsta | xxiao: i'm trying to find the time to retrofit an obs image | 20:28 |
| Corsac | though it might be a bad time for that kind of joke, I prefer laughing about that | 20:28 |
| arjan | some debian activists have been all too good at spreading that fiction so that people believe it | 20:28 |
| xxiao | hopefully you guys can streamline the whole meego architecture, maybe give OE a chance as well | 20:28 |
| RST38h | arjan: Ah, the saboteurs! | 20:28 |
| jacquesdupontd_ | im getting crazy trying to make things works with that cluster | 20:28 |
| Corsac | arjan: I'm a debian activist, btw :) | 20:29 |
| jacquesdupontd_ | and my nvidia chipset | 20:29 |
| jacquesdupontd_ | seems i'm gonna have to recompile xorg | 20:29 |
| trip0 | Corsac, i knew it! ...me too ;) | 20:29 |
| * RST38h has to admit that Ubuntu is the first Linux distro that ever worked for him | 20:29 | |
| robsta | xxiao: i think it's being used to build moblin handheld but i'm not sure | 20:29 |
| Corsac | RST38h: that's because it's brown | 20:29 |
| robsta | xxiao: it's certainly used to build something | 20:29 |
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| RST38h | Corsac: Or made out of elephant's hind parts | 20:30 |
| trip0 | meego maintains it's own toolchain and isn't inherently binary compatible with any upstream distro. In that sense, it's not even close to redhat or fedora | 20:30 |
| xxiao | hope one day i can build meego from source | 20:30 |
| RST38h | actually... | 20:30 |
| arjan | trip0: that's a little fud.. LSB is LSB; there's quite reasonable binary compatibility because of that | 20:31 |
| auke | you can today | 20:31 |
| Corsac | xxiao: srpms are available | 20:31 |
| Corsac | xxiao: just go ahead :) | 20:31 |
| RST38h | arjan: Got a question: Who will deliver the base applications? (web, mail, notepad, etc) | 20:31 |
| Corsac | (and aiui there's a script which will build an image or something) | 20:31 |
| trip0 | arjan, you aren't going to be able to drop in a redhat repo and have much success | 20:31 |
| xxiao | any startup page available? i searched moblin before and ended up with nothing really useful | 20:31 |
| RST38h | arjan: Will it be Intel, Maemo Devices, or will each company have its own set? | 20:31 |
| arjan | trip0: sure you can't | 20:31 |
| auke | doesn't say much about binary compatiblity | 20:32 |
| RST38h | arjan: [for reference: Nokia currently considers many of these apps differentiation factors and keeps them closed source] | 20:32 |
| Corsac | what about ljpeg8? | 20:32 |
| * Corsac laughs | 20:32 | |
| arjan | trip0: package compatibility is a whole different story | 20:32 |
| auke | repo compatiblity and package compatibility are different beasts | 20:32 |
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| arjan | trip0: (but you can't install a xandros deb on ubuntu or vise versa either) | 20:32 |
| Corsac | RST38h: well, mail is open, isn't it? | 20:32 |
| trip0 | arjan, package compat was really what i was talking about | 20:32 |
| juliank | Are we playing an 'ask arjan' session here? | 20:32 |
| Corsac | juliank: ask arjan | 20:32 |
| RST38h | Corsac: kinda, not really | 20:33 |
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| RST38h | juliank: well, while the guy is here, why not | 20:33 |
| Corsac | RST38h: tinymail and modest at least are (well, there's a git tree at least) | 20:33 |
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| RST38h | Corsac: but you cannot commit changes back | 20:33 |
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| xxiao | Corsac, just srpms are not enough, unless you have something like LFS manual or debootstrap/dbuild | 20:35 |
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| xxiao | Corsac, you must have some scripts to pull things together, but it's not open to the public i assume | 20:36 |
| Corsac | xxiao: http://moblin.org/projects/moblin-image-creator-2 | 20:36 |
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| Corsac | though I guess the image creator starts from binaries | 20:37 |
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| arjan | mic does | 20:38 |
| arjan | I don't know if we have scripts to bootstrap; we have our buildsystem bootstrap normally | 20:38 |
| arjan | OBS has that functionality buildin | 20:38 |
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| Corsac | and OBS is opensource so it should be doable to extract the relevant bits from the repository | 20:40 |
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| Corsac | xxiao: -^ | 20:40 |
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| xxiao | what's OBS? | 20:41 |
| arjan | open build system | 20:41 |
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| xxiao | arjan, can you give a link? thanks. | 20:42 |
| trip0 | opensuse build service? | 20:42 |
| trip0 | https://build.opensuse.org/ | 20:42 |
| xxiao | ah...i c, opensuse | 20:42 |
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| xxiao | never used that | 20:42 |
| xxiao | not an opensuse guy | 20:42 |
| arjan | http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service | 20:43 |
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| Passeli | has anyone have tried to run moblin 2.1 in virtualbox? | 20:54 |
| arjan | no 3d =>no fun | 20:54 |
| Passeli | i created virtualbox image with moblin-image-creator-2 and mouse and keyboard does not work | 20:54 |
| javispedro | virtualbox has xengl builtin | 20:55 |
| javispedro | at least the latter versions of it | 20:55 |
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| smhar | If I buy an N900 today will it be a dead end road or will there be a Meego for N900? | 20:55 |
| arjan | smhar: n900 plans did not change due to meego | 20:56 |
| arjan | smhar: but I don't know if maemo 6 was going to work on n900 already | 20:56 |
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| leinir | smhar: well, one interesting thing to consider for that is that the Harmattan demo was released on the N900 :) | 20:56 |
| Hydroxide | leinir: what else would they release it for? | 20:58 |
| Hydroxide | leinir: assuming they were going to release it at all | 20:59 |
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| thiago_home | arjan: ping. Did anyone contact you about your patch? | 20:59 |
| leinir | Hydroxide: a vm image of some kind, lots of videos and code that wouldn't run on freemantle... plenty of options :) | 20:59 |
| Hydroxide | true | 20:59 |
| arjan | thiago_home: not yet | 20:59 |
| leinir | But in stead they have released something which not only works fine, but runs on the existing platform :) | 21:00 |
| ShadowJK | nokia hasn't said anything about maemo6 on n900.. However, if enough of maemo is folded into meego to make it a usable os on handheld, I think the prospects for the user community to create a meego spin for n900 would be good | 21:01 |
| Hydroxide | my guess is that Harmattan will either officially work on the N900 without multitouch or it can be made to do so unofficially with community support. however this is just speculation based on publicly available info and I don't really know. | 21:01 |
| javispedro | and for the n810! | 21:01 |
| Hydroxide | ShadowJK: I think some nokia employee/executive already speculated that the community would be likely to make a meego port for n900 | 21:01 |
| trip0 | Harmattan == meego? | 21:02 |
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| javispedro | Harmattan is harmattan. | 21:02 |
| juliank | MeeGo says: 'MeeGoes to N900' | 21:02 |
| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: harmattan == what they were going to call maemo 6 until the meego rebranding - no idea what they'll call it, but it's still supposed to be deb-based until whatever is after harmattan - but it will be able to run deb-packaged meego apps | 21:02 |
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| Hydroxide | (similarly the corresponding version of symbian will still need symbian packages but will be able to run the same apps) | 21:03 |
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| Hydroxide | timeless_mbp: that was meant for trip0 not you :) | 21:03 |
| juliank | Hydroxide: The question is whether they can change their package format after being mainstream already. | 21:03 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Harmattan is Meego | 21:03 |
| RST38h | javispedro: check former maemo6 forum on tmo | 21:03 |
| javispedro | RST38h: from a branding point of view, yes. | 21:03 |
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| ShadowJK | The community have been working on "Mer", a version of maemo without the closed nokia pieces, for use on any device. Meego would hopefully fit that role perfectly | 21:03 |
| RST38h | javispedro: really surprising too | 21:04 |
| Hydroxide | some post from I think quim explained that ari jaaski said harmattan would be a "meego instance" instead of a "meego product" because it's still deb-based and not fully converged in terms of the architecture but still able to run meego apps | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | :) | 21:04 |
| thiago_home | arjan: hmm... I thought they would have. | 21:04 |
| Hydroxide | juliank: see ^^^ | 21:04 |
| thiago_home | arjan: anyway, one response I got was that they needed your benchmark. | 21:04 |
| thiago_home | arjan: what did you use to benchmark? | 21:04 |
| javispedro | Hydroxide: ... "since we want you to package your apps for Symbian, Maemo, and MeeGo". | 21:05 |
| Hydroxide | javispedro: yeah. they're not dropping the Maemo branding in reference to Maemo 5, and I think it'll be able to run MeeGo apps once they have Qt 4.6 replace Qt 4.5 in PR1.2 | 21:05 |
| juliank | Hydroxide: But there plan for Harmattan was to go mainstream with it (step 5/5), IIRC. | 21:05 |
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| Hydroxide | javispedro: in case it's not clear, I don't work for Nokia or maemo.org or otherwise have inside info but this is my conclusion from public announcements | 21:06 |
| javispedro | well now it's step 5/6 ;) | 21:06 |
| Hydroxide | javispedro: true :) I think for Harmattan they're switching branding but not fully switching architecture | 21:06 |
| javispedro | Hydroxide: oh I'm pretty sure they'll work. the question tmo is interested in is "will commercial devs package them for fremantle+qt4.6" | 21:06 |
| Hydroxide | javispedro: since I think harmattan will also be using deb+qt4.6 I expect yes :) | 21:06 |
| * thiago_home is expecting Harmattan to upgrade to Qt 4.7 | 21:07 | |
| Hydroxide | thiago_home: doesn't seem to be planned based on nokia's public announcements - they did just release 4.6 and are going to release harmattan this year... | 21:07 |
| thiago_home | Hydroxide: Qt 4.6 is from December | 21:07 |
| javispedro | harmattan should be mostly frozen by now -- that's the reason I laughed at the idea they were going to switch to meego before harmattan. | 21:07 |
| Hydroxide | thiago_home: yep. two months ago | 21:07 |
| thiago_home | Hydroxide: Qt 4.7 feature-freezes this Friday | 21:07 |
| Hydroxide | thiago_home: ah. well as javispedro said, I doubt harmattan is still undergoing major feature development at this point | 21:08 |
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| Hydroxide | thiago_home: especially since feature freeze != release, too | 21:08 |
| thiago_home | Hydroxide: I know, but I can still hope | 21:08 |
| thiago_home | actually, I can do better than that | 21:08 |
| thiago_home | I can _push_ them into Qt 4.7 | 21:09 |
| arjan | thiago_home: (sorry if I missed your response; my keyboard broke (ga) and I rebooted my box( | 21:09 |
| arjan | thiago_home are there any issues with the patch? | 21:09 |
| thiago_home | arjan: no, not with the patch | 21:09 |
| thiago_home | arjan: but we want your benchmark | 21:09 |
| arjan | qgears | 21:09 |
| arjan | I'm sure you guys wrote it ;) | 21:09 |
| yngwin | thiago_home: is quick already intregrated in 4.7 repo? | 21:09 |
| arjan | (I run it via the phoronix harness, but that's just for convenience) | 21:10 |
| thiago_home | arjan: to add to tests/benchmark/gui/image | 21:10 |
| thiago_home | yngwin: yes | 21:10 |
| yngwin | nice :) | 21:10 |
| arjan | thiago: I would think you guys wrote it | 21:10 |
| arjan | if not.. qgears | 21:10 |
| simula_ | thiago_home... are those C++0x enhancements going to make it into 4.7? | 21:10 |
| thiago_home | arjan: can't find it. Anyway, something automatic would be nice. | 21:10 |
| thiago_home | I'll let them know on qgears though. | 21:10 |
| thiago_home | simula_: what enhancements? | 21:11 |
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| simula_ | the compile time checks on signal slot connections is one i remember | 21:11 |
| arjan | thiago: it's automatic; qgears runs automated entirely for us | 21:11 |
| thiago_home | simula_: no | 21:11 |
| thiago_home | simula_: we need to change the #define signals macro first | 21:11 |
| simula_ | ok, thanks thiago :) | 21:11 |
| thiago_home | simula_: I'm trying to get them to accept the change to public right now because of MSVC2010 | 21:12 |
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| simula_ | :D | 21:12 |
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| thiago_home | arjan: ok, I'll tell them. But they were hoping for a QtBenchlib test :-) | 21:13 |
| RST38h | arjan: Sorry that I missed the answer, but who supplies the baseline applications in MeeGo? | 21:14 |
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| Amby | hi all | 21:14 |
| arjan | thiago: http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2008/08/fast-graphics.html | 21:15 |
| arjan | is the description + URL to the benchmark tool | 21:15 |
| arjan | it's relatively simple | 21:15 |
| arjan | (this is the COMPO test) | 21:15 |
| arjan | it composits a translucent bench over an image of a pyramid | 21:16 |
| thiago_home | arjan: right, but it's not part of our automated benchmarking infrastructure | 21:16 |
| El_Angelo | 19:34 +auke | hahaha | 21:16 |
| thiago_home | though I think the benchmarking people will be interested in just taking that and adding it | 21:16 |
| arjan | thiago: someone who knows qt much better than I, can likely extract it in minutes | 21:16 |
| thiago_home | yeah | 21:16 |
| thiago_home | we didn't have this infra when zack worked for us | 21:16 |
| arjan | the tool is already designed as benchmark | 21:16 |
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| arjan | thiago: and fwiw... this Qt hacking is fun and interesting for a kernel guy like me ;) | 21:17 |
| arjan | but don't expect me to write fancy C++ from the start | 21:17 |
| thiago_home | arjan: hopefully our coding style isn't too difficult for you :-) | 21:17 |
| auke | El_Angelo: boo | 21:17 |
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| admiral0 | hi meego people | 21:18 |
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| arjan | thiago: so far I've gotten around just fine | 21:18 |
| arjan | admiral0: hello sir | 21:18 |
| arjan | thiago: there's another hotspot in the same test | 21:19 |
| arjan | but I still need to figure out what that function is doing | 21:19 |
| arjan | (it's a lot more complex) | 21:19 |
| thiago_home | arjan: so no template black-magic from you? (http://pastebin.ca/1800383) | 21:19 |
| arjan | and it looks like it's doing a software zoom.. but rather simplistic | 21:20 |
| thiago_home | simula: ^^^ this is the compile-time argument-checking code | 21:20 |
| thiago_home | arjan: try asking rweather in #qt-labs in about 4 hours | 21:20 |
| thiago_home | it will be 9 am in Brisbane | 21:20 |
| arjan | thiago: templates is where I stopped and put the stroustrup book away. | 21:20 |
| admiral0 | i am very curious about meego platform. When we'll see some sources? | 21:21 |
| arjan | admiral0: two weeks or so | 21:21 |
| arjan | maybe three | 21:21 |
| admiral0 | can't wait | 21:21 |
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| admiral0 | it will have normal middleware i hope | 21:22 |
| arjan | define normal ;) | 21:22 |
| thiago_home | arjan: I consider myself a good C++ developer and *I* had a hard time understanding the variadic templates of digits... | 21:22 |
| arjan | admiral0: ask questions, I and others might just be able to answer | 21:22 |
| admiral0 | see openembedded, debian armel etc. | 21:22 |
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| admiral0 | i just hate things like android and bada | 21:23 |
| arjan | admiral0: those are not middleware | 21:23 |
| arjan | admiral0: nah it's very "PC linux" like | 21:23 |
| rsalveti | arjan: what's the idea at the moment? get most of the core and build system of moblin and post as meego? | 21:23 |
| arjan | (for lack of better word) | 21:23 |
| admiral0 | perfect | 21:23 |
| rsalveti | and then start working on top of it? | 21:23 |
| arjan | rsalveti: we've been merging stuff already for a while, on a technology level | 21:23 |
| arjan | (for example, moblin moved to maemo blocks around media) | 21:24 |
| arjan | and frankly, there was 80%+ overlap already anyway | 21:24 |
| admiral0 | arjan: i just did examples of distros/platforms with middleware that i like and and platforms that i dislike | 21:24 |
| rsalveti | yeah, sure | 21:24 |
| rsalveti | arjan: but to post something I think that it'll be much similar on what we currently have for moblin | 21:24 |
| Votan | admiral0 why do u hate android ? I love it on my phone, but got no idea about the code behind it | 21:25 |
| rsalveti | as nokia is focusing on maemo 6 atm | 21:25 |
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| rsalveti | besides those applications that we already have a common development, such as ofono and etc | 21:25 |
| arjan | rsalveti: yeah | 21:25 |
| admiral0 | Votan: only linux is a "standard" piece of software | 21:25 |
| admiral0 | rest is custom crap | 21:25 |
| Votan | so besides the kernel it's totally different ? now commonly used frameworks to tinker with ? | 21:25 |
| admiral0 | dalvik uses a jvm but it uses custom bytecode | 21:26 |
| juliank | rsalveti: Well, the maemo 6 name is dead; and branded MeeGo, as qgil said | 21:26 |
| admiral0 | Votan: exactly | 21:26 |
| rsalveti | but nice to hear that we'll have something already in the following weeks | 21:26 |
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| rsalveti | juliank: yeah, but I mean inside nokia | 21:26 |
| rsalveti | I doubt that they will change lots of things to move in a more meego way | 21:26 |
| rsalveti | probably they will continue working on what was the maemo 6 and then start working directly on meego for another device | 21:27 |
| admiral0 | will meego will be open as they advertise on site ? | 21:27 |
| rsalveti | sure it will | 21:27 |
| juliank | rsalveti: The codename is still Harmattan, but the product will be marketed MeeGo. "Now MeeGo comes to the picture. "Maemo 6" will not be used by Nokia as a brand since all the marketing effort around the software platform will be around MeeGo." | 21:28 |
| rsalveti | it's not wise to close it :-) | 21:28 |
| auke | we don't want to close it. ever. | 21:28 |
| rsalveti | juliank: oh, ok, you're right at this | 21:28 |
| Votan | good choice :> | 21:28 |
| admiral0 | i am a dev of archmobile (archlinux arm port) and i'd love to have a nice gui alternative in my repo :D | 21:28 |
| thiago_home | admiral0: there will be open apps that you can use | 21:30 |
| El_Angelo | auke: .|. | 21:30 |
| rsalveti | arjan: but how about the gui stuff, can you say if intel is already doing some work with Qt? | 21:30 |
| El_Angelo | :D | 21:30 |
| thiago_home | however, OEMs (including Nokia) may decide to use their own apps instead of the MeeGo default ones | 21:30 |
| rsalveti | arjan: in a window manager/compositer level | 21:30 |
| admiral0 | thiago_home: that's understandable | 21:30 |
| rsalveti | thiago_home: sure, like we have with android | 21:31 |
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| thiago_home | rsalveti: somewhat | 21:31 |
| admiral0 | rsalveti: android is a lot more closed that it seems | 21:31 |
| rsalveti | thiago_home: but's nice to hear that nokia will work on something that can and will be deployed at another hardware/system :-) | 21:31 |
| thiago_home | rsalveti: the difference is that there are some Android apps that you can only use if you follow Google's guidelines | 21:31 |
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| rsalveti | admiral0: sure | 21:32 |
| thiago_home | rsalveti: yeah, I spent the day getting Qt to work on AIX :-) | 21:32 |
| admiral0 | with qt stuff you can simplify existing apps | 21:32 |
| admiral0 | and port them on meego | 21:32 |
| rsalveti | thiago_home: hahah, aix? :D | 21:32 |
| admiral0 | or recompile them for mac & C. | 21:32 |
| thiago_home | rsalveti: on Solaris, we think we hit a compiler bug. Tomorrow, I'll do HP-UXi. | 21:32 |
| thiago_home | Intel Itanium processors. | 21:33 |
| rsalveti | thiago_home: man, you need courage :-) | 21:33 |
| admiral0 | and a lot of beer | 21:33 |
| rsalveti | hahaha, sure | 21:33 |
| simula_ | thiago_home, do you know of a tutorial to package a simple qmake project in .deb and/or .rpm formats? | 21:33 |
| thiago_home | nah, I like Itanium. Best assembly ever. | 21:33 |
| admiral0 | i prefer arm :P | 21:33 |
| thiago_home | admiral0: ARM is good, but it comes second compared to Itanium for me. | 21:33 |
| RST38h | You do know that you are not supposed to program in Itanium assembler? | 21:34 |
| admiral0 | ah one question about meego that i forgot before... | 21:34 |
| admiral0 | will meego have an sdk as samsung does for bada? (windows only) | 21:35 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: an assembly that nice cannot be restricted to the compiler only :-P | 21:35 |
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| thiago_home | admiral0: MeeGo will have an SDK and it won't be Windows-only. | 21:35 |
| rsalveti | admiral0: probably we'll have something with Qt | 21:35 |
| admiral0 | thiago_home: :* | 21:35 |
| thiago_home | take a look at the current "Qt SDK", which is for Qt development for desktop platforms. | 21:35 |
| RST38h | thiago: Yea, but I doubt you can keep all the inter-instruction constraints for each Itanic model in your mind =) | 21:36 |
| sharpneli | It would be rather amusing for a linux distro to have a windows only sdk :D | 21:36 |
| thiago_home | obviously, for MeeGo we'll need Atom-optimised and ARM cross-compilers, deployment, remote debugging... | 21:36 |
| simula_ | yay! | 21:36 |
| admiral0 | i want meego on my eeepc :D | 21:36 |
| * thiago_home will be happy only when he sees an "upload to Ovi Store" button in the SDK | 21:36 | |
| rsalveti | thiago_home: yeah, hopefully we'll thrown scrachbox away hehe :-) | 21:37 |
| leinir | thiago_home: Mmm, total distribution chain integration :) | 21:37 |
| leinir | We're aiming for the same thing with Gluon :) | 21:37 |
| * admiral0 will be happy when he'll see a qt based ui for netbooks | 21:37 | |
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| rsalveti | thiago_home: that will be too easy :P | 21:37 |
| thiago_home | well, there's plasma-netbook... | 21:38 |
| simula_ | i would love a qt-creator plugin that allows me to publish and remotely debug :) | 21:38 |
| admiral0 | slow as hell on my eeepc | 21:38 |
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| admiral0 | good idea though | 21:38 |
| thiago_home | simula_: yeah | 21:38 |
| thiago_home | right now, I'm happy that I can remote-debug at all with gdb on my N900 | 21:38 |
| RST38h | thiago: What you call "Atom" is known as P5 :) | 21:39 |
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| admiral0 | thiago_home: my n900 is somewhere being repiared T.T | 21:39 |
| RST38h | thiago: So, I doubt it needs a special optimizing compiler. ARM, on the other hand... | 21:39 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: yes, it will need a cross-compiler | 21:39 |
| admiral0 | s/repia/repai/ | 21:39 |
| thiago_home | the entire SDK will require libc and base libraries pre-compiled (as on devices), headers, etc. | 21:40 |
| thiago_home | gcc and binutils are actually just a small part of it | 21:40 |
| RST38h | thiago: Well, there is a Moblin SDK already. | 21:40 |
| RST38h | thiago: And there is Maemo SDK. They come with all this stuff, so that stuff kinda exists | 21:41 |
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| thiago_home | yeah, I know | 21:41 |
| thiago_home | now we need to put them together in one single SDK | 21:41 |
| RST38h | The real question is who supplies the baseline web browser, email app, file manager, etc | 21:41 |
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| thiago_home | and, of course, the same versions of the libraries on both x86 and ARM sides | 21:41 |
| Suurorca | but still no harmattan sdk, current maemo sdk probably won't have much to do with whatever will be published for meego... | 21:41 |
| RST38h | "Who supplies the toolchain?" has never been a question | 21:41 |
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| thiago_home | RST38h: that's not SDK. | 21:42 |
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| thiago_home | valid questions, but not for the SDK. | 21:42 |
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| RST38h | Suurorca: looking into my crystal balls, maeblin SDK will definitely use the same CodeSourcery toolchain for ARM | 21:42 |
| RST38h | Suurorca: and whatever standard i386 gcc toolchain exists right now for Atom | 21:43 |
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| Suurorca | I suppose that makes things slightly harder for nokia to screw up, then ;) | 21:43 |
| RST38h | Suurorca: sorry? | 21:44 |
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| * thiago_home wishes for gcc 4.4 | 21:44 | |
| RST38h | Suurorca: why would Nokia screw up that? It works pretty well in Nokia's current Maemo SDK | 21:44 |
| * admiral0 has gcc 4.4 in archmobile :P | 21:44 | |
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| bzhb | I just created a page in MeeGo wiki trying to sum up the answers given about packaging (why not Debian upstream / why not DEB). It probably needs improvement/correction from somebody more deeply involve in MeeGo than I : http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging | 21:45 |
| RST38h | We really know why not DEB? :) | 21:45 |
| thiago_home | actually, I want 4.5 so I can do the C++0x with lambdas | 21:45 |
| timeless_mbp | bzhb: do you need to be a member to edit that page? | 21:45 |
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| admiral0 | thiago_home: it's not stable yet | 21:45 |
| bzhb | I just register on meego.com | 21:46 |
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| thiago_home | admiral0: still want it so I can finish my signal-slot compile-time checking code | 21:46 |
| simula_ | :) | 21:46 |
| admiral0 | :) | 21:46 |
| bzhb | then you need to give your email on wiki.meego.com and that's it | 21:46 |
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| thiago_home | int main(){[](){}()} | 21:47 |
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| admiral0 | thiago_home: in the meantime :P http://repo.archmobile.org/arm/core/gcc-4.4.3-1-arm.pkg.tar.gz | 21:47 |
| thiago_home | admiral0: no need, I build my own gcc for Maemo. Except that this gcc produces code that the Maemo binutils can't assemble. | 21:48 |
| thiago_home | I need to compile everything with -fPIC | 21:48 |
| * monoceros thinks that the Nokia 3G Booklet become attractive if it could load Meego... | 21:48 | |
| bzhb | RST38h: I just try to give what I think what was thze reasoning behind the RPM decision. I may be wrong... | 21:48 |
| thiago_home | monoceros: let's hope so. | 21:49 |
| javispedro | I think Nokia hopes so too. | 21:49 |
| javispedro | but who knows. | 21:49 |
| RST38h | bzhb: Is there a reference to wherever that reasoning has been given? | 21:49 |
| thiago_home | <--- works for Nokia | 21:49 |
| Amby | it would be nice to see the Nokia Booklet 3G 2nd edition with MeeGo in September | 21:49 |
| admiral0 | thiago_home: :O | 21:49 |
| admiral0 | thiago_home: bastard it's my dream XD | 21:49 |
| thiago_home | admiral0: send your CV | 21:49 |
| admiral0 | i am too young and unexperienced | 21:49 |
| thiago_home | well, finish studying first then | 21:50 |
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| w00t | studying is overrated | 21:50 |
| RST38h | javispedro: You can probably install current Moblin to a netbook. http://moblin.org/downloads | 21:50 |
| admiral0 | prefer to wait a couple of years till i finish university | 21:50 |
| * w00t would rather be doing! :P | 21:50 | |
| timeless_mbp | bzhb: rather | 21:50 |
| Ryback_ | admiral0: I'd say start contributing to the open projects :-) | 21:50 |
| javispedro | RST38h: if only I had one :) | 21:50 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Why you would like to do that, or use a netbook (rather than a normal laptop) is beyond me though | 21:50 |
| admiral0 | i'm one of maintainers of archmobile :D | 21:50 |
| bzhb | RST38h: the answer given on meego-dev mailing list when people where asking why not .deb | 21:50 |
| javispedro | RST38h: heh, I dislike netbooks too. | 21:50 |
| RST38h | bzhb: Aha, cool =) | 21:50 |
| admiral0 | and i am very happy with it | 21:50 |
| leinir | Not too happy about netbooks either... But well happy about tablets with removable keyboards ;) (e.g. touchbook) | 21:51 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Let us just say a netbook is three times slower than my Core2 Duo subnote, at the same size and weight | 21:51 |
| thiago_home | admiral0: here's what you need to study to be hired: http://pastebin.ca/1800383 :-P | 21:51 |
| javispedro | I have to admit that Qt code reads easily. | 21:51 |
| leinir | javispedro: *nods* It's really pleasant to write as well :) (the vast majority anyway, there's obviously glitches as with anything... but it's being worked on ;) ) | 21:52 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: we tend to avoid blackmagic code because we still support some bad compilers. | 21:52 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: they tend to choke | 21:52 |
| w00t | thiago_home: you look like you're having fun | 21:52 |
| javispedro | thiago: I guess that's what I'm seeing unions instead of casts everywhere | 21:52 |
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| unclewerner | wiki.meego.com/Packaging, link to obs is broken | 21:53 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: no, that's not choking. That's because of strict aliasing. | 21:53 |
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| thiago_home | javispedro: as a rule of thumb, if you need to reinterpret_cast, you may be breaking strict aliasing. | 21:53 |
| javispedro | ... but this is a union of pointers. | 21:53 |
| w00t | but reinterpret_cast is fun! | 21:53 |
| javispedro | s/pointers/pointer types | 21:53 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: what are you reading? | 21:54 |
| admiral0 | thiago_home: templates... pretty lowlevel | 21:54 |
| bzhb | unclewerner: thanks, I will fix it in a second | 21:54 |
| jku_ | RST38h, the current nokia netbook will not work with moblin (if that was what you were suggesting) | 21:54 |
| javispedro | thiago: QHildonInputContext (qt-maemo) | 21:54 |
| thiago_home | admiral0: I'm kidding, btw. There are C++ questions in the interview, but I don't think anyone in the office can understand that code (save me, and that's because I wrote it) | 21:54 |
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| RST38h | jku: netbooks are dime a dozen, no reason to concentrate on nokia's | 21:54 |
| admiral0 | thiago_home: i am more a C and nutella(r) guy | 21:55 |
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| w00t | thiago_home: what sort of stuff gets asked? | 21:55 |
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| admiral0 | i am curious about this too | 21:56 |
| w00t | [if you don't know, that's fine, just interested] | 21:56 |
| javispedro | thiago: still, I like it. if you're aiming for strict aliasing it helps trying to keep the number of casts to the minimal even if it's not really needed. | 21:56 |
| javispedro | just because it's so easy to forget about it :) | 21:56 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: well, it's not because of that | 21:56 |
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| * RST38h wonders why getting-started page does not show how to compile a meego program from the command line | 21:56 | |
| thiago_home | javispedro: it's because compilers do break your code if you don't follow strict-aliasing rules. | 21:56 |
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| thiago_home | javispedro: we once caught one in QtCore in a call from QtGui with MSVC | 21:57 |
| * RST38h the qt creator thing looks uncomfortably similar to eclipse =) | 21:57 | |
| javispedro | thiago: ah. | 21:57 |
| javispedro | gcc did not by default -- at least the versions I'm used to. | 21:57 |
| thiago_home | w00t: ranging from basic C++ knowledge to algorithms to software development | 21:57 |
| admiral0 | RST38h: but it is ten times lighter | 21:57 |
| mikhas | RST38h, I doubt that very much | 21:58 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: gcc won't do those because it won't check strict aliasing across modules. | 21:58 |
| RST38h | admiral: I certainly hope so for its own good :) | 21:58 |
| admiral0 | i use it on my eeepc... | 21:58 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: MSVC did, because we left Link-Time Code Generation on by accident (and that meant that the code generation happened when the *application* was linked) | 21:58 |
| w00t | thiago_home: sounds interesting ;) | 21:58 |
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| admiral0 | the thing i miss most in it is C coding | 21:59 |
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| javispedro | thiago: extra point to msvc if that's working. | 21:59 |
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| thiago_home | javispedro: yeah, but customers weren't happy | 21:59 |
| thiago_home | their applications took an hour to link | 21:59 |
| w00t | *grin* | 21:59 |
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| RST38h | admiral: What prevents you from coding in C under meego? | 21:59 |
| admiral0 | under meego nothing | 21:59 |
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| thiago_home | w00t: for example: what are the 4 C++ cast operators? | 22:00 |
| admiral0 | that's why i'm even here | 22:00 |
| admiral0 | and i also know a little C++ for Qt coding | 22:00 |
| RST38h | thiago: static cast, static cast, static cast, and static cast =) | 22:00 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: somehow I don't think the interviewer will accept that as an answer :-P | 22:00 |
| javispedro | qobject_cast, qobject_cast, qobject_cast and qobject_cast. | 22:00 |
| javispedro | then complain if it does not work or the performance sucks. | 22:01 |
| RST38h | thiago: well, I only use static cast anyway, so I probably wouldn't like the job :) | 22:01 |
| thiago_home | javispedro: rule of acquisition 33: "It never hurts to suck up to the boss" :-P | 22:01 |
| w00t | thiago_home: reinterpret_cast, const_cast, static_cast, dynamic_cast | 22:01 |
| unclewerner | I love to combine templates with cast operators... ok, it's getting off topic | 22:01 |
| thiago_home | w00t: there you go | 22:01 |
| w00t | thiago_home: doesn't sound like bad stuff :) | 22:01 |
| * RST38h uses C++ as a better C | 22:01 | |
| mikhas | javispedro, you forgot qgraphicsitem_cast | 22:01 |
| thiago_home | qobject_cast, qvariant_cast, qgraphicsitem_cast, qscriptvalue_cast, qdbus_cast... but those don't count | 22:02 |
| thiago_home | anyway, time to make dinner | 22:02 |
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| w00t | bon appetit | 22:02 |
| RST38h | thiago: You are starting to sound like a Gtk+ developer... | 22:02 |
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| * w00t starts working on another pyside tutorial | 22:02 | |
| admiral0 | you forgot hell_cast. Chuck norris arrives and kicks variable in the balls | 22:02 |
| mikhas | exactly, they dont count because those casts need to die =) | 22:02 |
| javispedro | they really followed Stroustrup to the letter don't they? | 22:02 |
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| javispedro | a billion thousand cast operators. | 22:02 |
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| RST38h | Anyways, static cast. | 22:03 |
| RST38h | javispedro: they smoked his book and got high on it. | 22:03 |
| admiral0 | lol | 22:03 |
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| mikhas | RST38h, that explains why after reading it you still feel dumb - the other half of the book is missing! | 22:07 |
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| RST38h | mikhas: Funny, I never really read Strautstrupp =) | 22:08 |
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| RST38h | Did read Lippman and decided to ignore most of C++ "features" as result | 22:09 |
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| Amby | started to compile a page for those who keep asking what was said in this IRC channel: http://wiki.meego.com/Meego_irc (help/feedback is appreciated) | 22:09 |
| * arjan still likes the Turbo Vision toolkit... now that was C++ I can deal with ;-) | 22:09 | |
| arjan | (mostly because it was a port from Object Pascal, which had a sane object model)( | 22:10 |
| RST38h | BorlandC++ has been a cluster fuck though | 22:10 |
| arjan | no argument on that | 22:10 |
| arjan | I only used turbo vision with g++ | 22:10 |
| RST38h | Especially right before it died | 22:10 |
| * arjan is showing he's on old fart I guess | 22:10 | |
| * RST38h used Turbo Pascal on CP/M-80. Go beat that. | 22:10 | |
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| * timeless_mbp grumbles | 22:14 | |
| * timeless_mbp hates wikis | 22:14 | |
| *** Votan|off is now known as Votan | 22:14 | |
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| lcuk | amby, for important topics that start in irc channels, we found a good mechanism was to c&p the whole conversation into a wiki page, then flesh it out. i wonder if that page of your will be easily outdated | 22:14 |
| timeless_mbp | bzhb: i'm stomping on your changes | 22:14 |
| lcuk | but keep the original conversation page as reference for later | 22:14 |
| timeless_mbp | if they were useful, you can put them back | 22:14 |
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| Amby | lcuk: you mean save one version w the whole conversation, then clean up? | 22:16 |
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| lcuk | yeah, http://wiki.maemo.org/Mms_implemention_conversation was one such example | 22:16 |
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| lcuk | it worked well, and in doing it that way retained the history of the proposal without deleting it once it got full | 22:18 |
| Amby | lcuk: I c. I expect this to be outdated, but most topics are only touched shortly at this moment (e.g. Packagin, which seems to be discussed 10 times a day already has a proper page) | 22:18 |
| bzhb | timeless_mbp: what mean stomping ? (sorry english is not my main language) | 22:18 |
| timeless_mbp | bzhb: i noticed | 22:18 |
| timeless_mbp | ever played Super Mario Brothers? | 22:18 |
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| lcuk | indeed amby, and the overview page for recent topics may well be another great idea if its made available to all users on entry and kept updated | 22:19 |
| Amby | lcuk: but I will follow the advice for more complete proposals | 22:19 |
| bzhb | not much, but yes | 22:19 |
| lcuk | cool amby :) | 22:20 |
| timeless_mbp | when Mario / Luigi jump on a Goomba, that's called stomping | 22:20 |
| javispedro | *plays mario bros jump sound effect* | 22:20 |
| Amby | any advice for wiki front page editing? | 22:20 |
| timeless_mbp | Amby: give up :) | 22:20 |
| Amby | timeless_mbp: I expect my enthusiasm to face a painful death around the weekend anyway ;) | 22:21 |
| bzhb | ok. what is the reason ? | 22:21 |
| timeless_mbp | bzhb: i made a large series of changes and your minor changes got in my way | 22:21 |
| timeless_mbp | just as goombas get in mario's way | 22:21 |
| lcuk | Amby, 2 man enter, 1 man leave. winner keeps edit? | 22:21 |
| bzhb | ah ok | 22:21 |
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| bzhb | I understood you wanted to remove the page completely | 22:22 |
| javispedro | timeless: I still don't understand. What does Princess Peach have to do with this? =) | 22:22 |
| timeless_mbp | Amby: you should let it die faster | 22:22 |
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| Amby | timeless_mbp: I never knwo when to give up, so I just ignore that :) | 22:23 |
| javispedro | and do you need a mushroom superpower to edit the wiki? | 22:23 |
| timeless_mbp | Amby: ignore my advice at your own peril :) | 22:23 |
| timeless_mbp | javispedro: you need to: | 22:23 |
| timeless_mbp | 1. create an account | 22:23 |
| timeless_mbp | 2. click the stupid link from the first email | 22:23 |
| timeless_mbp | 3. set your password | 22:23 |
| *** rzr has joined #meego | 22:23 | |
| timeless_mbp | 4. set your email address | 22:23 |
| timeless_mbp | 5. click the stupid link from the second email | 22:23 |
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| timeless_mbp | 6. try to use the wiki | 22:23 |
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| timeless_mbp | i consider that at least a fireflower if not a star | 22:24 |
| timeless_mbp | eTooMuchEffort | 22:24 |
| itdock | lmao | 22:24 |
| timeless_mbp | even the symbian wiki was easier | 22:24 |
| lcuk | timeless, you forgot 7 8 9 10 where you still dont have access even though you thought you had sacrificed children etc | 22:25 |
| javispedro | and also the fact that after doing that you will be subscribed to meego-dev | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | javispedro: oh | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah you have to uncheck lots of boxes to avoid various perils and pitfalls | 22:25 |
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| Amby | javispedro: only if you forget to uncheck the box | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | but you didn't ask "how do i safely edit" | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | just "how can i possibly" | 22:25 |
| * javispedro is receiving a meego-dev digest every few minutes | 22:26 | |
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| * Stskeeps tries to catch up | 22:27 | |
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| timeless_mbp | javispedro: yeah well. sorry :) | 22:27 |
| timeless_mbp | obviously you want to unsubscribe | 22:27 |
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| javispedro | timeless: not your fault, I felt into that bottomless pit a few hours ago actually :) | 22:27 |
| timeless_mbp | i figured :) | 22:27 |
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| javispedro | *fell | 22:28 |
| timeless_mbp | henrik ala-uotila is 404 | 22:29 |
| * timeless_mbp gets to be access denied | 22:29 | |
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| jorma | plop | 22:29 |
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| timeless_mbp | oh wow, kudos to shaver user '3' (there is no #2, and #1 is root) | 22:29 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: thank you for the only sane post in the RPM vs DEB FAQ item post. it's all about the libraries, not the hordes of applications. | 22:30 |
| jku_ | timeless, I think he had an unfair advantage | 22:30 |
| javispedro | you can do some kind of mailing list subscription management from drupal but it's a trap | 22:30 |
| *** hrw|gone is now known as hrw | 22:30 | |
| hrw | morning | 22:30 |
| timeless_mbp | jku_: you think he's also #1? | 22:30 |
| jku_ | hrw, hi | 22:30 |
| hrw | jku_: hi Jussi | 22:30 |
| javispedro | "Subscribe for digest (receive emails in a bundle)" should say bundle=5-7 messages. | 22:30 |
| * timeless_mbp just realized that mshaver != shaver@ realm:mozilla | 22:30 | |
| timeless_mbp | qgil is 38 | 22:31 |
| jku_ | timeless_mbp, yes, I do | 22:31 |
| timeless_mbp | s/3/#/ | 22:31 |
| solarion | where are these numbers from? | 22:31 |
| javispedro | I am 664 -- so near 666, damn. | 22:31 |
| hrw | meego-dev is high traffic now? | 22:31 |
| Stskeeps | hrw: very. | 22:31 |
| * w00t grins | 22:31 | |
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| hrw | time to sub I think | 22:32 |
| w00t | my n900 keeps beeping at me, and it's all meego-dev! | 22:32 |
| timeless_mbp | w00t: you're insane | 22:32 |
| jku_ | hrw, not high signal... | 22:32 |
| itdock | i set up another email box for meego-dev | 22:32 |
| w00t | timeless_mbp: why this time? | 22:32 |
| timeless_mbp | asking your n900 to handle meego-dev? | 22:32 |
| javispedro | I keep praying to the gmane gods to accept my request. | 22:32 |
| hrw | jku_: as suspected | 22:32 |
| itdock | someone open a feature request to not be notified for specific accounts | 22:32 |
| timeless_mbp | http://meego.com/user/1800 | 22:33 |
| timeless_mbp | Access Denied | 22:33 |
| timeless_mbp | You are not authorized to access this page. | 22:33 |
| w00t | timeless_mbp: IMAP, so it handles meego-dev, maemo-dev, and lots, lots more | 22:33 |
| timeless_mbp | that's interesting | 22:33 |
| javispedro | hey, I'm a 3 digit account. | 22:33 |
| w00t | timeless_mbp: my inbox is over 6k mails | 22:33 |
| javispedro | can I sell it on ebay? | 22:33 |
| timeless_mbp | there are <2000 users afaict | 22:33 |
| hrw | jku_: I kind of expected to get lots of noise on maemo/meego ML/forum/irc | 22:33 |
| Amby | less than 2000 users | 22:33 |
| solarion | where do you find the list of numbers? | 22:33 |
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| timeless_mbp | solarion: url hacking | 22:34 |
| timeless_mbp | go to your user page, you'll find out it's just a number | 22:34 |
| timeless_mbp | change the number until you get a better number | 22:34 |
| Amby | last user http://meego.com/user/1982 | 22:34 |
| solarion | aaah | 22:34 |
| leinir | aww... if i'd waited five more people, i'd have had my birth year as a member number ;) | 22:34 |
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| solarion | when you edit something | 22:34 |
| hrw | jku_: how moblin guys reacted for meego announcement? | 22:35 |
| * javispedro fins "default send interval" setting under "account information" in user cp | 22:35 | |
| * w00t subs to meego-community too | 22:35 | |
| w00t | right | 22:35 |
| w00t | I'm off out for the night to have a few beers | 22:35 |
| w00t | I'll be sure to mail the list in a drunken stupor suggesting we use slackware as upstream when I get back in | 22:35 |
| w00t | night, all | 22:36 |
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| * solarion is 681 | 22:36 | |
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| javispedro | 30 MiB free storage in meego.com! | 22:36 |
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| javispedro | I have to wonder if that's a good idea, but hey. | 22:37 |
| *** robsta has joined #meego | 22:37 | |
| solarion | hey! You could put a whole MS Office document up there then | 22:37 |
| villemv | how do you see yoru meego id? | 22:37 |
| solarion | villemv: edit your profile/account | 22:38 |
| villemv | ah, see it | 22:38 |
| solarion | it's in the url | 22:38 |
| * villemv is 43 =) | 22:38 | |
| solarion | wow | 22:38 |
| solarion | I must live in the wrnog timezone | 22:38 |
| villemv | should have been 1 faster | 22:38 |
| * sjgadsby is 333. Yay! | 22:38 | |
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| * solarion wonders if there's gonna be yugo jokes | 22:39 | |
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| * timeless_mbp ponders | 22:40 | |
| timeless_mbp | sjgadsby: happy number | 22:40 |
| timeless_mbp | fwiw, the governance model in about/governance seems to resemble the symbian model | 22:40 |
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| * w00t sighs | 22:44 | |
| *** javispedro has quit IRC | 22:44 | |
| w00t | or not | 22:44 |
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| Amby | is Adobe Air available on Moblin? | 22:45 |
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| arjan | Amby: you can get it from Adobe | 22:45 |
| arjan | (but it's not in the default image you download from moblin.org) | 22:45 |
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| Amby | arjan: thx. I was looking at this demo from Wired http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/02/the-wired-ipad-app-a-video-demonstration/ | 22:47 |
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| * Stskeeps submits his view on the whole debacle on upstream | 22:49 | |
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| * w00t looks forward to Stskeeps' views | 22:52 | |
| w00t | oh, it's already there | 22:52 |
| * w00t reads | 22:52 | |
| *** mchua_afk is now known as mchua | 22:53 | |
| Stskeeps | did the formatting get shot or something? | 22:53 |
| w00t | nope | 22:53 |
| w00t | well, "yes", but only as much as 80 column wordwrapping usually does | 22:54 |
| w00t | sounds like a sane way forward | 22:54 |
| itdock | Amby: boo ipad, i want a giant meego tablet | 22:54 |
| w00t | meepad! | 22:55 |
| itdock | hahahaha | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | megoopad | 22:55 |
| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: btw, please load the packaging page | 22:55 |
| w00t | or just goopad? | 22:55 |
| villemv | yuck | 22:55 |
| timeless_mbp | i added two Mer bits, i'd like you to somehow comment on them | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: which one | 22:55 |
| itdock | eww | 22:55 |
| Amby | itdock: that's why I was asking. I would prefer the MeePad with the Wired Reader (on Adobe Air) | 22:55 |
| villemv | I guess that's what many iPads will end up in practice | 22:55 |
| leinir | "MeePad... My pad, to go." ;) | 22:55 |
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| timeless_mbp | http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging | 22:56 |
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| RST38h | MeeMeePad | 22:56 |
| villemv | you see all the egoism these days? I-Pad, Me-Pad | 22:56 |
| d14 | :)) | 22:56 |
| * timeless_mbp goes home | 22:56 | |
| itdock | loll | 22:56 |
| RST38h | YouTube, YouPad | 22:56 |
| itdock | i see :) | 22:56 |
| timeless_mbp | MeeGos home? | 22:56 |
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| d14 | iShit | 22:56 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: waiting for wiki approval | 22:57 |
| RST38h | YouShit | 22:57 |
| Suurorca | that's google's turf | 22:57 |
| RST38h | And, finally, YourShit.com | 22:57 |
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| Amby | MeeGoes to sleep. byeall | 22:57 |
| lcuk | gnite Amby | 22:58 |
| itdock | nite | 22:58 |
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| RST38h | No, one way or another, MeeGo still does not qualify as a decently sounding brand =( | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: the argument about rpm vs deb is not when one of the tools can handle deb.. it is a full package (imager, qa, process, etc) | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: and i can see why it's compelling | 22:59 |
| villemv | it fits better for meegos.com | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | compared to the debian suite of things, which is, well, suited for debian.org | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | just look at how much tools maemo.org needed | 22:59 |
| RST38h | AmeeGos ? | 22:59 |
| w00t | amigaos.com | 23:00 |
| * w00t ducks and runs | 23:00 | |
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| RST38h | that name is cursed | 23:00 |
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| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: i'd say that having a fresh look on the toolset and having state of the art tech (actual public image building, qa tools, build system, etc), is a plus for this community | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | as we need stable tools, not crashy autobuilders :) | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | and these were developed centered around RPM. | 23:01 |
| *** rene is now known as Guest42195 | 23:01 | |
| Stskeeps | which is why things are the way they are :P | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | .. and that fixing Maemo would have taken more manhours than taking moblin and dealing with flak | 23:01 |
| damien_l | rpmeego, see they work together | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:01 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: I suspect you are being too optimistic about Maeblin tools | 23:02 |
| *** rzr` has quit IRC | 23:02 | |
| RST38h | Let's wait and see though | 23:02 |
| villemv | they are better already, right? | 23:02 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: anything is better than no image builder and scratchbox. | 23:02 |
| Stskeeps | end of story | 23:02 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:02 |
| hrw | any informations when meego downloads will be available? | 23:02 |
| RST38h | true | 23:02 |
| villemv | what's the deal with avoiding scratchbox btw, for meego? | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | villemv: because we have something way cooler with OBS? | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | especially lbt's _cross stuff | 23:03 |
| hrw | villemv: sbox sucks too badly compared to anything | 23:03 |
| villemv | Stskeeps: I only care about development environment actually ;-) | 23:03 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: thanks for the reply | 23:03 |
| villemv | scratchox sucks for that, of course | 23:04 |
| lbt | I'd like to see more about how meego can address this | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | villemv: i -love- developing with obs. | 23:04 |
| villemv | but what do the moblin guys use instead? | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | villemv: they are OBS users these days too, i think | 23:04 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: my opinion is that nokia just had enough of using non-maintained maemo base system and wanted to get something working | 23:04 |
| lbt | yes, they are | 23:04 |
| villemv | Stskeeps: so how do they launch the program then? | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | villemv: they have the luxury of no cross-compilation | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | so they treat it as another builder | 23:04 |
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| hrw | OBS... I should still have somewhere those intel/moblin mails about how to use it | 23:05 |
| villemv | but I mean... they use just chroot? | 23:05 |
| lbt | if that | 23:05 |
| Stskeeps | villemv: probably - our cross-compile is a glorified chroot technically too :) | 23:05 |
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| villemv | I suppose they won't be installing all the libs to their host environment | 23:06 |
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| jorma | when can go out and buy an atom-based phone? i've always wanted a phone with 1 hour battery life | 23:06 |
| villemv | moorestown is better, rigth? | 23:07 |
| ShadowJK | I wonder what cpu is in that xpphone thing | 23:07 |
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| lbt | Jaffa, Stskeeps... is packaging a distro essentially a QA process? By not building upon the efforts of Fedora/Debian you are duplicating their effort? And wasting effort? Sure you have the flexibility to be more efficient - but improving the efficiency of an inefficient process is.... suboptimal | 23:08 |
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| villemv | I guess you can easily steal the effort of fedora/debian where it applies | 23:09 |
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| GeneralAntilles | arjan, ping? | 23:09 |
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| villemv | it's all about applying patches anyway | 23:09 |
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| lbt | villemv: isn't that process called upstreaming? | 23:09 |
| lbt | and QA'ing an isolated package is not QA'ing a distro :) | 23:10 |
| villemv | I mean stealing the patches from fedora/debian | 23:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, by the way, s/netbook, tablet pc, etc./x86/ s/phone/ARM/ ;) | 23:10 |
| lbt | *THAT'S THE POINT* | 23:10 |
| villemv | I don't think that's called anything \-) | 23:10 |
| lbt | GeneralAntilles: yeah... I ignore that elephant | 23:10 |
| villemv | you don't need to marry the distro to steal the patches | 23:10 |
| lbt | villemv: but then you don't have a distro | 23:10 |
| lbt | you have a collection of non-integrated apps | 23:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, for fast boot. | 23:11 |
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| w00t | I must admit | 23:11 |
| lbt | where your syslog writes to one location and your log reader reads from another ;) | 23:11 |
| lcuk | villemv, no, you dont but if you would one day like that to be a two way street its better to be on speaking terms with your partner ;) | 23:11 |
| w00t | I kind of boggled with the whole "we use Xorg and kernel upstream", way to forget every other package that's going to be part of the stack | 23:11 |
| lbt | w00t: I'm waiting to see how many 10's of thousands of apps moblin has | 23:12 |
| lbt | make that thousands | 23:12 |
| w00t | lbt: all 5 of them, at that rate | 23:12 |
| lbt | or hundreds | 23:12 |
| villemv | lcuk: but if that stuff is upstreamed, you are doing bigger contribution to general good | 23:12 |
| lbt | or 10s | 23:12 |
| w00t | lcuk: oh hi! didn't notice you lurking, how's things? | 23:12 |
| lbt | a lcuk ? where | 23:13 |
| Stskeeps | of course things should go upstream, but this is about the principle you can take a bloated fedora package, change the dependancies, remove some ./configure flags, and bam, it's a mobile package. | 23:13 |
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| lcuk | w00t, im a 3digit member :P | 23:13 |
| w00t | lcuk: me too! | 23:13 |
| villemv | right Stskeeps. so do we know if they are not planning to do that? | 23:13 |
| w00t | we're part of a very exclusive club :D | 23:13 |
| villemv | they don't have to exlpicitly hdepend on fedora | 23:13 |
| lcuk | ive been here and involved for a while, ive had a few personal matters to sort out so havent been on this box tho | 23:13 |
| lcuk | been in as a couple of webchat users | 23:14 |
| villemv | they can just take a peek at what fedore is doing and using it where it applies | 23:14 |
| lbt | lcuk: a 3digit? | 23:14 |
| Stskeeps | villemv: no, i don't want them to, but there was quoted a policy of incompatiiblity | 23:14 |
| w00t | lcuk: oh, no, no, I mean I didn't notice you joined.. I was looking for you earlier | 23:14 |
| lcuk | ahh lol its been logged in all day | 23:14 |
| Stskeeps | and i'm saying that's bad, it needs to be a policy of alignment but focus on mobile | 23:14 |
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| Stskeeps | villemv: go read my post : | 23:14 |
| Stskeeps | :) | 23:14 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: phew | 23:14 |
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| w00t | Stskeeps: for a moment I was getting conflicting signals off you | 23:14 |
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| * w00t grates teeth at armando's second mail | 23:15 | |
| lcuk | w00t, im good as it happens now :) | 23:16 |
| lbt | I thought it was a dupe | 23:16 |
| w00t | lbt: different subject | 23:16 |
| w00t | same body | 23:16 |
| w00t | same terrible formatting | 23:16 |
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| lbt | is it some kind of japanese poetry thing? | 23:17 |
| w00t | hahah | 23:17 |
| * lbt goes to decode the stanzas | 23:17 | |
| villemv | I have to dig up that "incompatibility" policy thing again | 23:18 |
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| Stskeeps | villemv: auke's mail - i can see where he's coming from, but i think we need to shape it a little bit to prevent some mistakes maemo made | 23:18 |
| Stskeeps | so this is a discussion on experiences and hoping to have a good end result for the platform | 23:19 |
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| Stskeeps | and why do i always kill active conversations | 23:21 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:21 |
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| villemv | you got al too technical. People want blood & passion at this phase still | 23:21 |
| * rmayr is wondering if anybody actually benchmarked dpkg/apt-get/ipkg vs. zypper/rpm on an arm-based embedded device so far.... | 23:22 | |
| Stskeeps | villemv: that's what other parts of the community is doing | 23:22 |
| anaZ | lbt:you were looking for me? | 23:22 |
| villemv | rpm seems very fast these days. found the link on slashdot meego thread | 23:22 |
| villemv | some new benchmarks | 23:22 |
| Stskeeps | rmayr: i know that apt gets better with vfp. :P | 23:22 |
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| villemv | (yes, slashdot had less trolling than meego-dev) | 23:23 |
| rmayr | oh, I haven't dared go to slashdot for the thread yet ;-) | 23:23 |
| anaZ | villemv: what link? | 23:23 |
| villemv | sec | 23:23 |
| villemv | meego: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/02/15/1323200 | 23:23 |
| villemv | benchmarks for rpm: http://laiskiainen.org/blog/?p=19 | 23:24 |
| anaZ | thanx | 23:24 |
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| rmayr | those benchmarks are on i386 with lots of RAM, right? | 23:25 |
| pwnguin | who cares about speed | 23:25 |
| villemv | T60 | 23:25 |
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| pwnguin | my experience with n900 and other embedded stuff sugggests size matters | 23:26 |
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| * thiago_home thinks 256 MB RAM + 768 swap is lots of RAM | 23:26 | |
| rmayr | err, I have started working on IPAQs way back, and RPM seemed really unusable there - that was one reason why they developed/used ipkg as a minimal dpkg variant | 23:26 |
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| Stskeeps | you people need to move your mindset from embedded to mobile. | 23:27 |
| Stskeeps | it isn't a friggen ipaq :P | 23:27 |
| rmayr | so on embedded devices, I would strongly assume speed to be an issue even now - but as far as I know, nobody has compared that so far, so I would love to see the numbers | 23:27 |
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| villemv | has someone checked how moblin boys start their packaging? do the steal from fedore? | 23:27 |
| villemv | fedora | 23:27 |
| pwnguin | Stskeeps: even at the 'mobile' level, it seems current shipping devices have limited storage capacity | 23:28 |
| * villemv is context switching b/w keyboards too much | 23:28 | |
| pwnguin | android has like 256MB flashrom limits | 23:28 |
| anaZ | villemv: is some cases yes | 23:28 |
| rmayr | and RAM is limited even more | 23:28 |
| pwnguin | maemo has a quirky /opt | 23:28 |
| Stskeeps | pwnguin: yes, of course - but i mean, didn't you run a full debian on your 128mb 2gb x86 PC? | 23:28 |
| ml-mobile | only for app storage, and only because that's all the G1 had | 23:28 |
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| hrw | bye | 23:28 |
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| pwnguin | ml-mobile: kind of important to notice we're talking packaging of apps | 23:29 |
| villemv | I ran rpm & distros happily on a 64mb pc | 23:29 |
| villemv | rpm & deb | 23:29 |
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| pwnguin | Stskeeps: actually, my pc was 10gb and 256MB. and debian didn't use a 256MB rootfs | 23:30 |
| anaZ | and you should also think about the fact that most of the packages will be installed in an image that gets deployed, any later package updates are minimal | 23:30 |
| lcuk | villemv, what if your primary storage was 256mb | 23:30 |
| villemv | hey, we got emmc to take care of that | 23:30 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: except app repository updates etc.. | 23:30 |
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| villemv | does deb take less space than rpm db? | 23:30 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: but yes, it really shouldn't be a problem | 23:30 |
| Stskeeps | pwnguin: this is a quite i use very often: We should stop seeing the tablets as strictly under-powered embedded systems, and see them for what they really are—powerful, power-efficient, economical handheld computers. Not simply hopped-up electronic calendars, but real computers that are capable of almost as much computing as a laptop. | 23:30 |
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| thiago_home | pwnguin: Maemo has a quirky /opt because the rootfs is too small. | 23:31 |
| villemv | my n810 is an underpowered device ;-) | 23:31 |
| rmayr | I don't even know if yum/zypper/rpm would consume less memory and/or be faster than apt-get/dpkg on mobile/embedded devices, but I think it is an issue - is there anybody who hasn't had to increase memory limits for apt-get on desktop systems? so it's not completely lightweight either.... I'm just wondering why nobody has actually tried both on actual ARM systems... | 23:31 |
| lcuk | i think laptops are MORE limited in scope than handhelds | 23:31 |
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| * timeless_mbp pokes stanojr | 23:31 | |
| * timeless_mbp pokes Stskeeps | 23:31 | |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: mm? | 23:31 |
| pwnguin | Stskeeps: and how does this perspective change anything? we should pretend rootfs won't be too small? | 23:31 |
| timeless_mbp | did you look at the packaging page? | 23:32 |
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| jrayhawk | I happily run Debian on the n810, thanks to Syskeeps. | 23:32 |
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| jrayhawk | Stskeeps | 23:32 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: yes, i responded to it? | 23:32 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: earlier in the convo | 23:32 |
| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: i dropped off to go home :) | 23:32 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: i'd say that having a fresh look on the toolset and having state of the art tech (actual public image building, qa tools, build system, etc), is a plus for this community | 23:32 |
| Stskeeps | and these were developed centered around RPM. | 23:32 |
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| Stskeeps | as we need stable tools, not crashy autobuilders and other items :) | 23:33 |
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| rmayr | sure, but there are two parts of the deal: building packages and installing them... | 23:33 |
| Stskeeps | and many of the tools they have simply doesn't exist, we had to invent them for ourselves | 23:33 |
| timeless_mbp | note that i'm not saying that what maemo has is good in these areas | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | i'm just saying the issue isn't as simple as they seem :) | 23:34 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, sure | 23:34 |
| rmayr | I think we all agree on that ;) | 23:35 |
| bzhb | nice blog: http://www.allmeegodevices.com/2010/02/17/meego-a-whole-new-linux-ballgame/ | 23:35 |
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| timeless_mbp | hey, does anyone have a useful url for a moblin vm? | 23:35 |
| timeless_mbp | i can run Mer in a vm w/o any effort | 23:35 |
| lbt | anaZ: hey - sorry - busy :) It was about creating a link to your OBS - sorted now. | 23:35 |
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| pwnguin | timeless_mbp: i think ubuntu has one ;) | 23:35 |
| timeless_mbp | ?? | 23:35 |
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| slaine_ | evening all | 23:38 |
| * itdock yawns | 23:38 | |
| villemv | you can use image creator to create vmware / virtualbox image | 23:38 |
| villemv | http://moblin.org/projects/moblin-image-creator-2 | 23:38 |
| mereI | Just a small question ladys and gentlemen.. Why OR rather how is a 256mb internal memory something bad when its not like a dir must reside on the internal memory but can exist outside (not as in a removeble SD card or the like but another internal memory). I mean ALL rootfs dont have to reside there. (!?) | 23:39 |
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| RST38h | all rootfs has to reside there | 23:39 |
| pwnguin | timeless_mbp: packages.ubuntu.com/moblin | 23:39 |
| thiago_home | mereI: the internal memory is faster | 23:39 |
| timeless_mbp | pwnguin: eWayTooComplicated | 23:40 |
| pwnguin | timeless_mbp: probably | 23:40 |
| ShadowJK | mereI, indeed /home and /opt are not on the 256M / | 23:40 |
| thiago_home | /opt is a symlink to /home/opt | 23:40 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: i'll be fighting the usual Mer fights in MeeGo, for sure :) | 23:40 |
| pwnguin | timeless_mbp: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile | 23:40 |
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| thiago_home | /home is a 2 GB fs on the mass memory | 23:40 |
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| villemv | if you create a "normal" deb w/o optification, it ends up on nand | 23:40 |
| thiago_home | then there's a 30 GB /home/user/MyDocs formatted as VFAT | 23:40 |
| villemv | due to /usr/lib, /usr/bin being there | 23:40 |
| pwnguin | timeless_mbp: i havent looked recently but i think the MID edition is moblin based | 23:41 |
| timeless_mbp | pwnguin: i want a stupid .vmdk | 23:41 |
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| timeless_mbp | this is apparently an unreasonable reuqest | 23:41 |
| thiago_home | there are also a couple of bind-mounts | 23:41 |
| timeless_mbp | s/uq/qu/ | 23:41 |
| villemv | someone should create a vmdk w/o atom req, and seed on bittorrent | 23:41 |
| villemv | unfortunately, some "obvious" bind mounts are not there by default | 23:42 |
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| villemv | e.g. /usr/local, /usr/lib/debug | 23:42 |
| ShadowJK | timeless, can vmware run .iso? The moblin iso apparently let's you choose live or install | 23:42 |
| mereI | I mean, the barebone just boot and run yes. But the rest can reside outside... (?) | 23:42 |
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| villemv | mereI: rigth | 23:42 |
| timeless_mbp | ShadowJK: iso is fine, yes | 23:42 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm grabbing a .img | 23:42 |
| timeless_mbp | i presume it's actually a .iso | 23:42 |
| villemv | mereI: that's what "optification" does | 23:43 |
| thiago_home | villemv: who installs debug packages onto the device? | 23:43 |
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| thiago_home | villemv: as for /usr/local, it's empty | 23:43 |
| ShadowJK | http://moblin.org/downloads http://moblin.org/documentation/test-drive-moblin/using-moblin-live-image I guess | 23:43 |
| slaine_ | arjan: auke you about ? | 23:43 |
| villemv | thiago_home: people occasionally do, to debug there | 23:43 |
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| villemv | w/o remote debugger setup | 23:44 |
| * ShadowJK wonders if vmware or kvm has ssse3 support.. | 23:44 | |
| thiago_home | villemv: no | 23:44 |
| mereI | villemv: yes I understand that, and because of that I dnt understand why all the fuss is about the 256.. If its done properly it works | 23:44 |
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| thiago_home | villemv: to debug there, you put the debug packages on the host machine | 23:44 |
| fnordian900 | i,ve run gdb on a virtex4 fpga, with debug rpms | 23:44 |
| thiago_home | villemv: where you run gdb, not gdbserver | 23:44 |
| ShadowJK | timeless, seems like you need gma950 graphics too :/ | 23:44 |
| timeless_mbp | ?? | 23:44 |
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| slaine_ | You can't use the MoblinUX under vbox/vmware as there's no dri2 drivers | 23:45 |
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| villemv | thiago_home: yeah, I get the basic idea. people occasionally debug w/o remote gdb as well | 23:46 |
| slaine_ | I typically boot to run level 3 and then install Xfce desktop for a vm install | 23:46 |
| villemv | (not that it makes sense necessarily) | 23:46 |
| thiago_home | villemv: yeah, understood | 23:46 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: glory | 23:46 |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine_: i don't suppose you have an image you're willing to share? | 23:47 |
| slaine_ | not really | 23:47 |
| timeless_mbp | there's a blog entry from someone @intel about vbox 2.2.2 where he had something moblinish working | 23:47 |
| slaine_ | it's pretty simple though | 23:47 |
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| slaine_ | It works, you need to enable PAE and 3d iirc, it's just DOG SLOW | 23:47 |
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| pwnguin | mereI: my fuss is that every firmware update involves a mass uninstallation because it wasn't done 'properly'. even with optification. this is far more problematic than whether apt-get or zypper uses fewer CPU cycles, imo | 23:48 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_: i need to do some spot checking to see how certain things work | 23:48 |
| slaine_ | unusable for anything productive. Though I suppose you could just ssh in from the host os, that's what I do at work typically | 23:48 |
| RST38h | having something moblinish working in a virtual machine is not much of a problem. works in vmware at least | 23:48 |
| slaine_ | Are you using virtual box ? | 23:48 |
| RST38h | esx | 23:49 |
| slaine_ | that was meant for timeless_mbp | 23:49 |
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| timeless_mbp | vbox 3.1.4 | 23:49 |
| slaine_ | I've not used vmware for eons | 23:49 |
| slaine_ | and I assume your on osx, given the mbp postfix | 23:49 |
| lcuk | how do people test/devel moblin then - if as i discovered last night i cant actively buy devices with it, the vm images are sluggish at best? | 23:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine_: how much ram should i assign? 256/512/1gb? | 23:51 |
| villemv | you can install it on atom laptop | 23:51 |
| RST38h | Works on more or less generic i386 hw | 23:51 |
| villemv | or a "modern" intel pc | 23:51 |
| timeless_mbp | villemv: would that include an eeePC? | 23:51 |
| * timeless_mbp has access to one of those | 23:51 | |
| slaine_ | timeless_mbp: iirc, enable PAE uder settings->system->processor and it should work. I gave mine 512Mb | 23:51 |
| villemv | yeah, if you make a custom image | 23:51 |
| RST38h | AFAIK also works on some samsung/lg UMPCs | 23:51 |
| Ryback_ | lcuk: you can install it on netbooks | 23:51 |
| villemv | timeless_mbp: 901+ | 23:51 |
| villemv | timeless_mbp: 900 / 700 = no-go | 23:51 |
| timeless_mbp | villemv: i think so | 23:51 |
| timeless_mbp | hrm, i'll have to check | 23:52 |
| slaine_ | Needs to be Atom | 23:52 |
| timeless_mbp | 8gb disk? | 23:52 |
| villemv | well, you'll need a different image for non-atom | 23:52 |
| slaine_ | yeah | 23:52 |
| * lbt proposes openSuse as an upstream | 23:52 | |
| slaine_ | and there's none prebuilt | 23:52 |
| RST38h | Does not have to be atom | 23:52 |
| villemv | slaine_: atom, or a pc with "prescott" extensions o rwhatever | 23:52 |
| slaine_ | ssse3 | 23:52 |
| RST38h | But yes may need a new image | 23:52 |
| pwnguin | lbt: ah, the 'everybody loses' compromise :) | 23:52 |
| villemv | yeah, in /proc/cpuinfo it was abbreviation of prescot something | 23:53 |
| Ryback_ | lbt: ? | 23:53 |
| RST38h | prescott is no longer an extension, it is a must :) | 23:53 |
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| mereI | pwnguin: well in that case I suggest that you make a proposal abut the packages have an url or something in them so that it easy for a application to make a list of what needs to be uninstalled and saves that list and when the update is complete and u run the backup tool u choose install previuos packages before upgrade and the package manager grabs and install your stuff. | 23:53 |
| lbt | sent to the ml | 23:53 |
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| villemv | PNI | 23:53 |
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| villemv | "prescott new instructions" | 23:53 |
| lbt | I want MeeGo to have an upstream | 23:53 |
| RST38h | probably sse3 | 23:53 |
| lbt | Ryback_: ^^ | 23:53 |
| ShadowJK | SSE3 = PNI != SSSE3, right | 23:53 |
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| Ryback_ | lbt: that makes no sense, imho | 23:54 |
| villemv | that doesn't compute | 23:54 |
| pwnguin | mereI: punctuation isn't expensive. neither is rdepends | 23:54 |
| lcuk | so what handheld device can i put moblin on, which is the prefered/best/simplest method of getting a handheld device now andputting moblin on it. and which devices work | 23:54 |
| anaZ | lbt: MeeGo has many upstreams... | 23:54 |
| lbt | so as a dev I can pull in a library from the thousands out there | 23:54 |
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| lbt | anaZ: yeah - that's the beauty of standards | 23:54 |
| villemv | SSE3 === PNI | 23:54 |
| lbt | anaZ: read the mail :) | 23:54 |
| RST38h | lcuk: most netbooks will work | 23:54 |
| lcuk | netbook doesnt have touch | 23:54 |
| lbt | I tried to explain my reasoning | 23:54 |
| lcuk | and for me thats a big - | 23:54 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: upstreams on source level, not packaging level | 23:54 |
| lcuk | ubuntu/windows works on those | 23:54 |
| RST38h | villemv: PNI isn't very official name :) | 23:55 |
| w00t | lbt: ++ | 23:55 |
| Ryback_ | lcuk: dell minis should work afaik | 23:55 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: and QA on a distro level | 23:55 |
| w00t | (re: ml) | 23:55 |
| lcuk | which MID/handheld device | 23:55 |
| slaine_ | lcuk, Moblin 2.2 was the first release due to support MID's | 23:55 |
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| villemv | RST38h: that's still what you have in /proc/cpuinfo | 23:55 |
| pwnguin | lbt: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000147.html | 23:55 |
| Ryback_ | lcuk: ^^ | 23:55 |
| manavs_ | hello | 23:55 |
| pwnguin | lbt: incompatibility is a feature! | 23:55 |
| Stskeeps | anaZ: nice to meet you btw - you're the "other side's" obs guy? | 23:55 |
| lbt | pwnguin: this is part of the response | 23:55 |
| RST38h | lcuk: http://jkontherun.com/2009/10/13/moblin-live-image-netbooks/ | 23:55 |
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| manavs_ | does moblin run on asus 900a? | 23:56 |
| villemv | manavs_: I think so | 23:56 |
| lcuk | RST38h, i just said, netbooks dont have touch generally | 23:56 |
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| Clay_ | the 900a is atom so yes | 23:56 |
| lcuk | i am happy with os on my laptop | 23:56 |
| arjan | manavs_: sadly no; 900a is celeron | 23:56 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: So it will not have touch | 23:56 |
| arjan | (afaik) | 23:56 |
| lcuk | ill look around | 23:56 |
| manavs_ | I think it is atom | 23:56 |
| arjan | check | 23:56 |
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| villemv | I thought 900 non-a is celeron | 23:56 |
| arjan | some 900a's are celeron | 23:56 |
| arjan | not atom | 23:56 |
| villemv | I have the smelly little 900 | 23:56 |
| arjan | if it's atom it'll work | 23:56 |
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| microlith | arjan: was just about to ask that | 23:57 |
| manavs_ | I've that netbook and it is definitely an atom | 23:57 |
| * microlith ponders loading moblin on his aspire one | 23:57 | |
| RST38h | Just about anything should work | 23:57 |
| timeless_mbp | omigosh | 23:57 |
| timeless_mbp | Warning | 23:57 |
| manavs_ | can it be installed to the ssd? | 23:57 |
| slaine_ | arjan: what's the likely hood of the ssse3 dep going away ? | 23:57 |
| timeless_mbp | "The partition table on device sda (ATA VBOX HARDDISK 8189 | 23:57 |
| timeless_mbp | MB) was unreadable. | 23:57 |
| arjan | slaine_: not very high; it gives abuot 10 to 15% performance | 23:57 |
| timeless_mbp | To create new partitions it must be initialized, causing the | 23:57 |
| timeless_mbp | loss of ALL DATA on this drive. | 23:57 |
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| arjan | manavs_: I use a 901 all the time, that's very similar | 23:57 |
| timeless_mbp | This operation will override any previous installation choices | 23:58 |
| slaine_ | arjan, in what ? | 23:58 |
| timeless_mbp | about which drives to ignore. | 23:58 |
| arjan | slaine_: all floating point operations | 23:58 |
| * w00t eyes timeless_mbp | 23:58 | |
| timeless_mbp | Would you like to initialize this drive, erasing ALL DATA? | 23:58 |
| timeless_mbp | " | 23:58 |
| arjan | slaine_: Atom really does not like x87 | 23:58 |
| timeless_mbp | w00t: "user friendly? "No" "Yes" | 23:58 |
| RST38h | slaine_: SSE3 exists since 2004 | 23:58 |
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| manavs_ | i've not run moblin yet, does it run live or can it be installed? | 23:58 |
| w00t | timeless_mbp: no, but that paste was really disturbing :P | 23:58 |
| RST38h | slaine_: You have got a CPU that does not support it? | 23:58 |
| slaine_ | 'cause I've benchmarked moblin and it's typically slower than other distros | 23:58 |
| slaine_ | Lots | 23:58 |
| timeless_mbp | w00t: hey, i had to hand type it! | 23:58 |
| Ryback_ | manavs_: either way | 23:59 |
| slaine_ | At lot of embedded devices are built around Celerons and 855GM | 23:59 |
| Clay_ | RST38h: sse3 != ssse3 | 23:59 |
| manavs_ | thanks | 23:59 |
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| villemv | seriously streaming simd extensions? | 23:59 |
| slaine_ | Filthy dirty hardware, but I personally manage about 16,000+ of these devices | 23:59 |
| RST38h | ok SSSE3 is Merom | 23:59 |
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