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| VLJ | err | 00:02 |
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| VLJ | the repo for moblin image creator dont work anymore | 00:03 |
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| * timeless_mbp ponders | 01:30 | |
| * tripzero prays | 01:31 | |
| * lainwir3d dies | 01:31 | |
| * tripzero morns | 01:32 | |
| sivang | hi all | 01:32 |
| sivang | hey timeless_mbp , how's you? | 01:33 |
| jebba900 | hey timeless_mbp how goes? I havent looked at that server. Happily doing what u want now? | 01:33 |
| * timeless_mbp is looking for someone | 01:33 | |
| jebba900 | heh | 01:33 |
| jebba900 | u found 2 | 01:33 |
| timeless_mbp | jebba900: it seems to work | 01:33 |
| jebba900 | cool | 01:33 |
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| timeless_mbp | that's more than i can say for my irc client | 01:34 |
| timeless_mbp | jebba900: i could probably use a dns entry somewhere | 01:35 |
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| jebba900 | ok, i'll map it to something in freemoe if you want. suggestions welcome. | 01:36 |
| timeless_mbp | mxr. | 01:36 |
| jebba900 | i'm on an airplane getting ready to take off for argentina... so ping me later this week if i dont ping u first. | 01:36 |
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| jebba900 | mxr it shall be | 01:37 |
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| bashir | hey | 01:39 |
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| bashir | i know this has come up a 100 times but has there been anything official about meego on n900 | 01:39 |
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| bashir | i want to buy an n900 but i dont want to get stuck with a device that will get no updates | 01:39 |
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| tripzero | bashir, i just bought the n900 | 01:40 |
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| bashir | tripzero it looks likea great device | 01:41 |
| timeless_mbp | bashir: so, there is at least one big update coming | 01:41 |
| tripzero | because A, i doubt meego will replace anything anytime soon. B, there will likely be community provided updates for the n900, C, i can port stuff myself if i have to | 01:41 |
| timeless_mbp | and it's likely there's going to be another one after that | 01:41 |
| timeless_mbp | but meego isn't likely to be relevant to any nokia hardware for a really long time | 01:41 |
| tripzero | timeless_mbp, +1 :) | 01:41 |
| bashir | hmm i see | 01:41 |
| timeless_mbp | and your n900 will work for a long time w/ or w/o the update | 01:41 |
| lainwir3d | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45213 | 01:41 |
| timeless_mbp | or any updates | 01:41 |
| lainwir3d | this post talk about it | 01:41 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah, that url is a better writeup | 01:42 |
| bashir | awesome becaue this was the first time i saw one for under $400 and was seriously interested | 01:42 |
| bashir | because i love linux and i am a software developer | 01:42 |
| tripzero | under 400? blast... :( | 01:43 |
| lainwir3d | under 400? :o where? | 01:43 |
| bashir | ebay | 01:43 |
| bashir | do buy it now and sort cheapest first | 01:43 |
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| bashir | ok i think i will buy it | 01:45 |
| bashir | my lastphone purchase was 2 years ago an iphone 2g for $250 | 01:45 |
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| bashir | which was crazy cheap at the time | 01:45 |
| bashir | just bought it | 01:46 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | now I'm thinking of Big Dick from the Carry On film | 02:43 |
| fatal_ | Thought you all might like these: | 02:44 |
| fatal_ | http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/devotion_to_duty.png | 02:44 |
| fatal_ | http://www.iamboredr.com/files/88d43c91a3bf.jpg | 02:44 |
| Cosmo[PB] | rofl | 02:45 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | night night | 02:54 |
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| timjiang | hi | 04:57 |
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| melik | When we are to hang the capitalists, they will sell us the rope we use. | 07:06 |
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| phungi | > When we are to hang the capitalists | 07:26 |
| phungi | when my cheque clears | 07:27 |
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| markey | morning | 07:33 |
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| timjiang_ | do anyone can tell me which kind of arm processor can be supported by meego | 08:04 |
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| phungi | in theory anything that linux supports... | 08:08 |
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| timjiang_ | For example, I do like to usr freescale processor IMX31 serial to build my PDA system. If I choose meego,but meego not support it,I should build rootfs img and device drivers by myself. | 08:37 |
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| Sage | Hi, what hapened to http://repo.meego.com? It redirects to http://meego.com/downloads but there is nothing there. | 08:38 |
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| timjiang_ | Keep waiting, the strom will come. | 08:44 |
| Stskeeps | morning | 08:44 |
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| timjiang_ | afternoon | 08:47 |
| timjiang_ | Where are you from,Stskeeps? | 08:47 |
| Stskeeps | denmark, living in poland | 08:49 |
| timjiang_ | I come from China, living in China. | 08:49 |
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| Stskeeps | :nod: should go and visit china at some point | 08:50 |
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| timjiang_ | Have you designed the hardware of embedded system? I want to design a PDA using IMX31 processor, but software is a hard choice. | 08:52 |
| Stskeeps | nop, software developer | 08:52 |
| Stskeeps | hardware design scares me | 08:52 |
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| timjiang_ | First, I want to choose QTOPIA and android, but yesterday, some of my friends suggest me to try meego | 08:53 |
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| koivula | timjiang, didn't china have this own linux distro. | 08:54 |
| timjiang_ | But I cannot find any source of meego. | 08:55 |
| timjiang_ | No, most of us use ubuntu and fedora. but in china linux is not popular as you think. most of chinese do like to use windows. | 08:56 |
| Stskeeps | timjiang_: wait some weeks and meego should be published | 08:57 |
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| timjiang_ | Ok, Stskeeps, which SDK do you like to use. GNOME? QT? | 08:59 |
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| Stskeeps | qt | 09:01 |
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| * DocScrutinizer shocks Stskeeps with a bag full of BGA chips | 09:07 | |
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| timjiang_ | me too, I like qt,signel and slot is easy to control. | 09:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yes, a nice concept | 09:11 |
| leinir | signal/slot is really nifty, yes :) | 09:11 |
| leinir | And i like to rub it in the faces of the .NET heads that their events system isn't thread-safe ;) | 09:11 |
| leinir | whereas signal/slot is ;) | 09:12 |
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| X-Fade | morning | 10:14 |
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| Tm_T | huomenta, morgen, morning, moin | 10:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | overheard "Me Go" (as a guy walks out of a meeting) | 10:56 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:58 |
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| megabast | hello | 11:21 |
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| Tachikoma | moin | 11:36 |
| lbt_ | moin | 11:37 |
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| ali1234 | mock finished compiling. these moblin srpms failed to compile: http://pastebin.ca/1806563 | 11:39 |
| * Stskeeps looks | 11:40 | |
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| ali1234 | the other thousand or so produce at least 1 binary rpm | 11:40 |
| Tachikoma | is this mailny a developer channel here or more user - or both? | 11:40 |
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| Tachikoma | mainly | 11:40 |
| Stskeeps | we're not really sure :) | 11:41 |
| Stskeeps | meego community | 11:41 |
| ali1234 | this is the build.log from attempting to build tar: http://pastebin.ca/1806563 | 11:41 |
| Tachikoma | so both :) | 11:41 |
| ali1234 | oops, this is: http://pastebin.ca/1806564 | 11:41 |
| ali1234 | btw, this was still the first pass so although i compiled with arch=i386 they are still linked against the originals which need SSSE3 | 11:43 |
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| ali1234 | i don't think that is the cause of the failures though | 11:43 |
| Sage | Does anyone have any idea when http://repo.meego.com is coming back online? Or has the url changed? | 11:44 |
| Tachikoma | oh, there is already some repository? | 11:44 |
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| Tachikoma | better: "was" ;) | 11:45 |
| Sage | Well there was at least. There are links to that repository in the wiki, e.g., http://wiki.meego.com/Image_Creation | 11:45 |
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| Tachikoma | I see, was just looking through the wiki . | 11:46 |
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| slaine_ | Sage,iirc, it was just a redirect of the repo.moblin.org | 11:58 |
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| slaine_ | Unfortunately, they've taken that offline, the trunk repo anyway | 11:59 |
| slaine_ | as Brendan said, they didn't like us making images yet. | 11:59 |
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| ali1234 | slaine_: the one at ftp.moblin.org is still there? | 12:00 |
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| slaine_ | The repo for the releases and updates is there, unfortunately trunk isn't | 12:01 |
| Sage | repo.moblin.org is still here, but there is no trunk for meego. | 12:01 |
| ali1234 | http://ftp.moblin.org/releases/trunk/repo/source/ | 12:01 |
| Tachikoma | is there any kind of roadmap of what whould work when btw? | 12:02 |
| Tachikoma | 'should' | 12:02 |
| Sage | ali1234: that is not the same trunk that was in repo.meego.com | 12:02 |
| Sage | ali1234: actually it might be :) | 12:03 |
| Tachikoma | are there arm packages already anywhere? | 12:03 |
| slaine_ | hasn't been updated since 16th though | 12:03 |
| slaine_ | Tachikoma don't think so | 12:03 |
| slaine_ | That part of integration won't happen for a while yet I imagine | 12:03 |
| Sage | Tachikoma: http://build.moblin.org/repos/devel%3a/arch%3a/arm/meego_arm/ | 12:03 |
| slaine_ | Wow, that's awesome | 12:04 |
| Tachikoma | cool, now i just need to figure out how to install them | 12:04 |
| slaine_ | That's all via OBS right ? | 12:04 |
| Sage | slaine_: the structure seems like obs build. | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | ooh, arm packages | 12:05 |
| * Stskeeps grabs his n900 | 12:05 | |
| Sage | Also some arm packages are here: http://build.moblin.org/repos/devel%3a/base/FFARM/ | 12:05 |
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| Tachikoma | Stskeeps: any tip on how to unstall rpm's on n900. should i run them through alien, should i install rpm itself on the system or do i have to rebuild them anyway in ordeer to use them on maemo5? | 12:06 |
| Sage | That seems to be only small subset of meego packages. | 12:06 |
| Stskeeps | Sage: base system first, it's the sanest | 12:06 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: you have to rebuild them anyway | 12:07 |
| slaine_ | I need an Arm dev unit | 12:07 |
| slaine_ | any suggestions ? | 12:07 |
| Tachikoma | ali1234: ok, so I'll just repackage them as deb and go with that i guess | 12:07 |
| Stskeeps | slaine_: smartq5 is cheap | 12:07 |
| Stskeeps | but no gles | 12:07 |
| Sage | Stskeeps: as the url states also :) | 12:07 |
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| slaine_ | I'd like this to become a SetTopBox | 12:07 |
| slaine_ | my project that is | 12:07 |
| slaine_ | based on MeeGo | 12:07 |
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| Stskeeps | eagleboard maybe | 12:10 |
| Stskeeps | er, beagleboard | 12:10 |
| slaine_ | Is it possible to get that board in commercial batches ? | 12:10 |
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| slaine_ | I'd understood it to be targeted at hobbyists. | 12:10 |
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| slaine_ | I was really hoping I could get a Tegra | 12:11 |
| Stskeeps | well, yeah | 12:11 |
| slaine_ | Aren't we all I hear you say | 12:13 |
| slaine_ | Tegra would be ideal though as it would allow HD content | 12:13 |
| Tachikoma | tagra is that nvidia thinggy that I never thought o really exist? Do they actually exist? | 12:13 |
| slaine_ | Yes | 12:13 |
| Tachikoma | and can they obtained in any form? | 12:13 |
| slaine_ | I think you need to be an ODM to get them though | 12:14 |
| benbrown | I imagine the beagleboard can be got in commercial batches, isn't that what the iPhone 3GS and N900 use? | 12:14 |
| slaine_ | I know if your state side you can get a tegra developers board | 12:14 |
| Tachikoma | no, aam european | 12:14 |
| slaine_ | but they don't seem to want to farm it out to international markets | 12:14 |
| slaine_ | me too | 12:14 |
| Tachikoma | i see, well to be honest I'm pretty happy with the n900, just before i got it this tegra thing sounded petty fascinating | 12:15 |
| slaine_ | the n900 is an awesome device alright | 12:15 |
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| * benbrown loves his N900 | 12:16 | |
| Stskeeps | slaine_: instead of beagle you would probably contact TI directly, but beagle is a good development board for prototyping | 12:16 |
| Stskeeps | or the zoom2 (more expensive) | 12:16 |
| Tachikoma | I had the chance to compare a nexus one with the n900, that convinced me that I bought the right device. The only downside is the still missing commercial apps, but as far as i understand that more a problem of nokia getting their ovi crap working than of the device itself ... | 12:18 |
| ali1234 | ovi works fine and has commercial apps. the problem is no one wants to develop to a moving target | 12:19 |
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| Tachikoma | ali1234: are you talking about ovi for n900 or ovi for symbian. I mean ovi for n900. You can count the commercial apps there with two hands ... | 12:20 |
| blino | Stskeeps: btw, do you have a usable phone stack in Mer for N900 ? | 12:20 |
| Stskeeps | bldefine usable.. | 12:20 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: ovi for n900 | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Ofono | 12:21 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: usable as in there is a contacts list, and i can select one and call him/her | 12:22 |
| Stskeeps | no, you going to write it? ;) | 12:22 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: hell no | 12:22 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i might write one for none accelerated devices with 240x320 screen | 12:22 |
| ali1234 | i've been threatening to make a ncurses dialing program for a while now | 12:23 |
| ali1234 | might actually be possible with ofono | 12:23 |
| Tachikoma | ali1234: well, maybe my expectations are beyond "candle" and that stuff. I looked in the ovi thing right now and really have a hard time finding anything usefull that is not oin some kind of demo level. At least compare to most things i installed from the extras repository... | 12:23 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: right, it is empty. but not because nokia didn't finish it. it's empty because nobody knows if the n900 is even going to be worth it | 12:24 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: by the time some commercial app gets finished reinventing the wheel, N900 will probably be unsupported and everyone will have a new phone with a different api | 12:25 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: until we see some actual meego release we won't know | 12:25 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: and that is why ovi is empty | 12:25 |
| Tachikoma | ali1234: mh, it was empty before anything about meego was announced | 12:25 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: maemo 6 was announced with a totally different API before N900 was even released | 12:26 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: meego is really just the same thing by a different name | 12:26 |
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| blino | Stskeeps: I mean, receive a call, and call a specific number | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | blino: not on sound level | 12:27 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: and if you look at history... well nokia has a terrible record for supporting older devices | 12:27 |
| Stskeeps | but ofono is getting developed | 12:27 |
| Tachikoma | ali1234: so, you say, as long as there is something announced for the future, nobody is interested in the present? That would explain wwhy apple is so successful in getting apps in their store - they basically announce nothing at all .... | 12:27 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: yes, they announce nothing, and also the iphones are backwards compatible for most thing | 12:28 |
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| ali1234 | Tachikoma: also don't forget that even then, it took a long time for the iphone app store to actually get apps | 12:28 |
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| Tachikoma | I guess as long there is no finished meego, there won;t be any commercial apps for it then as well ... | 12:30 |
| Tachikoma | And god beware anyone announcing something for later ;) | 12:31 |
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| slaine_ | I just contacted nvidia about getting a tegra board, so we'll see what happens | 12:50 |
| villemv | actually, now would be a golden moment to grind some cash in ovi store | 12:51 |
| villemv | not much competition | 12:51 |
| Tachikoma | villemv: agreed, just pop in some nice 3d games | 12:51 |
| villemv | unless you are doing a "funny video" | 12:51 |
| Tachikoma | rotfl | 12:51 |
| Tachikoma | do these videos now play on n900 or are they still drm'ed | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | or since apple is banning anything erotic, new area for n900 | 12:52 |
| Tachikoma | I wouldn't be surprised if they just stayed there despite not being able to play them | 12:52 |
| benbrown | Stskeeps: I like your way of thinking | 12:52 |
| villemv | yeah, just start uploading files from empornium | 12:52 |
| benbrown | :) | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | benbrown: the success of a mobile device depends on how easy it is to watch porn on it | 12:52 |
| villemv | friend-of-frient had a job where he was making short mobile clips about full-length adult movien | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:52 |
| slaine_ | Saw a nice big Ovi advert int he cinema yesterday | 12:53 |
| Tachikoma | Stskeeps: well, not sure about mobile devices - but I'm convinced that unless you get porn for it the whole 3D Tv stuff will not be a big market ;) | 12:53 |
| villemv | well, you got internet on it, which === porn | 12:53 |
| villemv | though web runtime apps for specific sites would help | 12:54 |
| brik | ali1234: it might also help if it was easier to register as a dev and if they actually started replying to mails | 12:54 |
| w00t | the real problem with ovi is that it's hard to register and impossible to get contact with them about anything (help to register or otherwise) | 12:54 |
| slaine_ | The porn industry will make or break any new tech, it's always been that way | 12:54 |
| w00t | brik++ | 12:54 |
| Tachikoma | w00t: well, I'd register if there would be asingle app that i could use ... | 12:54 |
| w00t | they seem to direct mails into a gigantic black hole marked 'ignore' | 12:54 |
| ali1234 | brik: it might be easier to register as a dev if more than about three people actually attempted it :) | 12:54 |
| w00t | Tachikoma: i'm not talking about end user registration | 12:54 |
| Tachikoma | up to now i did not even attempt to register | 12:54 |
| w00t | Tachikoma: i'm talking about *developer* registration | 12:55 |
| benbrown | I don't see the point of ovi. N900 for me is about open source, I don't want to buy apps for it. | 12:55 |
| Tachikoma | w00t: oh, ok - well that was what i read about before and meant in the beginning when I wrote that ovi does not get it working right | 12:55 |
| villemv | benbrown: not ever angry birds levels?!? | 12:55 |
| villemv | ;-) | 12:55 |
| brik | I want angry birds levels :( | 12:56 |
| X-Fade | Or that cool rollercoaster game? :) | 12:56 |
| ali1234 | i want decent documentation for OBS but i'm not going to get it | 12:56 |
| Tachikoma | brik: isnt' there a thread on creating your own on maemo talk? | 12:56 |
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| brik | not sure | 12:56 |
| Tachikoma | brik: but right - it says at the end of the game that i could buy some - but i can't | 12:57 |
| w00t | Tachikoma: there is, but i'd personally rather support the developer as well as that | 12:57 |
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| brik | Tachikoma: ya, earlier the link directed you to a site saying they're not available yet | 12:57 |
| Tachikoma | obviously someone is either not interested in making money or someone doesn't the stuff working the way it's supposed to be. Never been so hard to get rid of my money ;) | 12:58 |
| Tachikoma | there is a "get" missing after "someone" | 12:59 |
| Tachikoma | there is a "get" missing after "someone doesn't" | 12:59 |
| * Tachikoma gets coffee .... | 12:59 | |
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| slaine_ | jku, what's happening with the trunk repo's ? | 13:07 |
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| niqt | hi | 13:10 |
| jku | slaine_, I don't know | 13:10 |
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| slaine_ | jku, can you access it ? | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | build.moblin.org seems to be a better indicator anyway | 13:11 |
| thiago | benbrown: other people may want to buy apps | 13:11 |
| benbrown | yeah, I guess. Any I write will be gpl'd, so people can laugh at my code. | 13:12 |
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| jku | slaine_, not any public repo, no. Very unfortunately. | 13:13 |
| Stskeeps | hopefully that'll change in due time :) | 13:13 |
| sri_ | stskeeps: today i got some yellow screen on my UI when i use GLES 2.0... put its just blank yello wUI | 13:14 |
| slaine_ | Stskeeps: how does one get an account on build.moblin.org ? | 13:14 |
| slaine_ | jku: I seriously hope that wasn't pulled because people where actually using it | 13:14 |
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| Corsac | yellow screen looks familiar | 13:15 |
| ali1234 | yeah, i've seen it before | 13:15 |
| Corsac | I got that on my touchbook :) | 13:15 |
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| Stskeeps | sri_: still GLX: error message? | 13:16 |
| ali1234 | it seems to happen if you init EGL but don't draw anything or clear the screen | 13:16 |
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| Corsac | ali1234: hmhm, I had yellowish screen but could see the notification area | 13:19 |
| ali1234 | well yeah, only the EGL window will be yellow | 13:19 |
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| * Stskeeps wonders why his newly flashed n900 with emmc and all is restarting status area | 13:20 | |
| ali1234 | hmm i wonder... | 13:21 |
| ali1234 | maybe these rpms failed to compile because they have hardcoded SSSE3 instructions in them? | 13:21 |
| ali1234 | ie inline asm | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | someone needs to be shot if they do | 13:21 |
| ali1234 | i'm still no closer to figuring out how to bootstrap properly | 13:22 |
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| ali1234 | god knows what i'm supposed to do if i wanted to port to a totally different arch | 13:23 |
| ali1234 | like say ppc | 13:23 |
| villemv | I tried porting mono to symbian | 13:24 |
| villemv | well, that was quit short by inline asm | 13:24 |
| villemv | but I guess it's forgivable in case of mono as it generates asm ;-) | 13:24 |
| ali1234 | thing is, i'm not actually trying to port anything. i just want to recompile all moblin 2.1 srpms without the SSSE3 requirement | 13:24 |
| Stskeeps | you take an existing distro, load it into OBS, then build on top of that distro all your packages, and then build your distro on top of the packages you generated, freeing yourself of upstream | 13:24 |
| villemv | ali1234: so did you get some errors then? | 13:25 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i can't see any way to load a distro into OBS, i only get a choice of a specific set of build repositories, none of which is moblin | 13:25 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: fwiw you can probably do this trick on the public OBS | 13:25 |
| Stskeeps | and add your own packages | 13:25 |
| ali1234 | i can't even see a sane way to add packages | 13:25 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: yes, and in 'advanced' you can indicate your own build repos | 13:25 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: no, you can't all you can do is select an existing repo and give it a new name | 13:26 |
| slaine_ | ali1234: It's pretty trickyu | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: it isn't obvious, but it is possible. i will be interested in non-SSSE3 MeeGo too. | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | when the build infra is up, i hope there's rooms for experiments | 13:26 |
| ali1234 | villemv: i'm picking through the logs now | 13:26 |
| ali1234 | villemv: to be honest, a lot of it looks like plain and simple broken rpms | 13:27 |
| ali1234 | villemv: which worries me | 13:27 |
| Stskeeps | do you resolve dependancies with your own generatedpackage repo? | 13:27 |
| Stskeeps | (you should) | 13:27 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: no, we went through this yesterday :) | 13:27 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i'm currently compiling everything against the vanilla binaries | 13:27 |
| slaine_ | I wrote some scripts some time back to pull down the .src.rpm files for a moblin release and rebuild them with specific CC flags | 13:28 |
| slaine_ | unfortunately, lots of the moblin src.rpms wouldn't build on moblin, you needed to make them via the obs | 13:28 |
| slaine_ | http://moblin.org/documentation/building-moblin-packages-natively | 13:28 |
| slaine_ | I never got back to it | 13:29 |
| ali1234 | ah, well, that would be the problem then, i'm building in a moblin chroot | 13:29 |
| slaine_ | ali1234: yup, same thing I did | 13:29 |
| ali1234 | so moblin isn't even self hosting... | 13:29 |
| slaine_ | Nope, if you search the moblin archives you'll see my complaints | 13:29 |
| ali1234 | pretty lame | 13:29 |
| ali1234 | well, in that case, i give up | 13:29 |
| ali1234 | at least until someone write proper documentation on using OBS | 13:30 |
| slaine_ | try the link above | 13:30 |
| slaine_ | If I get back to it, I'll let you know | 13:30 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: i'm using mock not build, but it's the same thing really | 13:31 |
| slaine_ | If the chroot is persistent then that's the problem | 13:31 |
| ali1234 | it isn't, it rebuilds it every time | 13:31 |
| slaine_ | hmmm, it should work then | 13:31 |
| ali1234 | at least it is supposed to | 13:31 |
| ali1234 | only avery small number of packages failed | 13:32 |
| slaine_ | how many ? | 13:32 |
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| ali1234 | http://pastebin.ca/1806563 | 13:32 |
| ali1234 | the list ^ | 13:32 |
| slaine_ | I think the last batch I worked on are here, http://slaine.org/moblin/ | 13:32 |
| ali1234 | http://pastebin.ca/1806564 <- log from failed tar package | 13:32 |
| slaine_ | if you click on each of my failed ones, you'll see the logs | 13:33 |
| ali1234 | hmm completely different set | 13:33 |
| slaine_ | I did fix that /usr/share/info/dir problem | 13:34 |
| ali1234 | hmm, so it's same kind of problems at least | 13:34 |
| slaine_ | remove /sbin and /usr/sbin from your path when building | 13:35 |
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| slaine_ | try that for tar and see how you get on | 13:35 |
| ali1234 | so will those build instructions avoid the dependency problem or will it just do what i am doing now wrt building against my new packages vs the originals? | 13:36 |
| slaine_ | ? | 13:36 |
| slaine_ | Oh, the ones I pasted above ? | 13:36 |
| ali1234 | yes | 13:36 |
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| slaine_ | My guess is that the obs build user won't have sbin /usr/sbin in the path, and so avoid it | 13:37 |
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| ali1234 | no, that's not what i eman | 13:37 |
| slaine_ | sorry, I'm not following then | 13:37 |
| ali1234 | say i rebuild glibc, will subsequent packages i rebuild use my new glibc or the intel one that needs SSSE3 | 13:37 |
| ali1234 | and will it automatically build everything in the right order? | 13:38 |
| slaine_ | no idea, I never got around to following them | 13:38 |
| ali1234 | hmm fair enough | 13:38 |
| slaine_ | i wrote my own build scripts before that was posted | 13:38 |
| slaine_ | they didn't work, I complained | 13:38 |
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| slaine_ | someone wrote that aftwards | 13:38 |
| ali1234 | i see | 13:38 |
| ali1234 | well, one way to find out i guess | 13:39 |
| slaine_ | I brought the topic up again around xmas and someone pointed that out to me, I book marked it but never got back to it | 13:39 |
| slaine_ | I'd stick with your own | 13:39 |
| ali1234 | my own doesn't work and has the fatal flaw of not doing what i want | 13:39 |
| slaine_ | ah | 13:39 |
| ali1234 | it just rebuilds every rpms in sequence against the intel ones | 13:40 |
| slaine_ | would be interested to see how many of the failed packages went away if you removed /sbin and /usr/sbin from the path | 13:40 |
| slaine_ | That's what mind didn | 13:40 |
| slaine_ | did | 13:40 |
| ali1234 | the rebuilt rpms never get used for future builds, and i have no dependency resolution to allow it | 13:40 |
| slaine_ | for file in $files..... | 13:40 |
| ali1234 | right | 13:40 |
| ali1234 | build --repo /path/to/repo/mirror --target i586 | 13:41 |
| slaine_ | I don't know of obs bootstraps the chroot like how you want | 13:41 |
| ali1234 | that looks like it should at least attempt to do what i want | 13:41 |
| slaine_ | I at least tried that, didn't work off the bat, didn't have time to figure out why | 13:42 |
| ali1234 | although i suspect if i say "--target i386" it is going to say "sorry i don't have packages for that" | 13:42 |
| slaine_ | iirc, it complained about missint spec files | 13:42 |
| slaine_ | 586 isn't where the SSE3 came from, I think it was based on some CFLAGS that where either part of the env or exported in the rpm macros | 13:43 |
| RST38h | That should be easy to check | 13:44 |
| RST38h | and once again: you will need SSSE3 | 13:44 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: i am trying to compile all moblin 2.1 without SSSE3 support | 13:45 |
| ali1234 | it *should* be easy | 13:45 |
| ali1234 | unfortunately it isn't | 13:45 |
| sharpneli | ali1234: Why do you want moblin without SSE3? | 13:45 |
| RST38h | YOu should do global search through makefiles for -msse3 and -mssse3 | 13:46 |
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| ali1234 | RST38h: that isn't the problem | 13:46 |
| RST38h | Once you find them, remove and try to recompile | 13:46 |
| RST38h | so what is the problem? | 13:46 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: the problem is even recompiling moblin at all doesn't work | 13:46 |
| ali1234 | sharpneli: to run it on machines that don't have core2 or better | 13:46 |
| RST38h | ali1234: Well, it works for intel employees recompiling moblin inside intel | 13:46 |
| * RST38h cackles | 13:47 | |
| ali1234 | RST38h: they use their private OBS | 13:47 |
| Tachikoma | wasn't this the original design idea of moblin, to only run onthat hardware? | 13:47 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: yes but it is a totally arbitrary limitation | 13:47 |
| RST38h | ali1234: This effectively means you are not supposed to recompile moblin | 13:47 |
| RST38h | At least not yet. | 13:47 |
| ali1234 | Tachikoma: (unless they put in loads of inline asm) | 13:47 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: yes, it does | 13:47 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: and in the future it effectively means you are not supposed to recompile meego unless intel and nokia grace you with a login for their OBS | 13:48 |
| Tachikoma | ali1234: well, somehow I guess they would have tried to enforce it, using inline asm seems a way to do so ... | 13:48 |
| sharpneli | ali1234: atom has SSE3. You want moblin for older x86 processors? I think due to atom it's quite understandable why they dont bother making the system work without sse3 | 13:48 |
| RST38h | ali1234: The best strategy would be to wait for 1-3 months until the great corporate powers (tm) figure this out between themselves and publish buildable sources | 13:48 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: the moblin sources are supposed to be buildable | 13:48 |
| RST38h | Moblin specifically targets Atom CPUs | 13:49 |
| RST38h | ali1234: Well you just said they are not, so it does not matter | 13:49 |
| ali1234 | sharpneli: yes, i want moblin for older intel processors, and also amd processors | 13:49 |
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| ali1234 | RST38h: none of what you said matters :) | 13:49 |
| RST38h | If you have a lot of time to spend, it does not, correct | 13:50 |
| Corsac | the hw requirements were because they intended to use NX bit, afair | 13:51 |
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| Corsac | that means, security reasons (data pages not marked as exeuctables) | 13:51 |
| Corsac | executables, even | 13:51 |
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| Corsac | but I don't see why this should be enforced at the source level, though :) | 13:51 |
| Corsac | (and indeed it's not where the problem lie, is it?) | 13:52 |
| ali1234 | it isn't | 13:52 |
| ali1234 | the problem lies in the fact that a moblin chroot cannot compile all moblin rpms | 13:52 |
| RST38h | Corsac: NX bit appeared somewhere in Prescotts and it has nothing to do with Atoms or SSSE3 | 13:53 |
| ali1234 | at least not without hacking around | 13:53 |
| Corsac | RST38h: tbh I wasn't even speaking about sse3 but about hw requirements | 13:53 |
| ali1234 | and, at least for moblin 2.1, the curerent release | 13:53 |
| RST38h | Oh ok | 13:53 |
| RST38h | But NX is pretty widespread, and it is optional anyway | 13:53 |
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| Corsac | RST38h: /but/ it might be that they targetted something more recent to be sure NX was present | 13:53 |
| RST38h | as I said, Prescott. | 13:53 |
| ali1234 | SSSE3 was used because it is much faster than x87 floating point | 13:54 |
| ali1234 | which is fair enough | 13:54 |
| sharpneli | Maybe there are lot of algorithms there written requiring the sse3 includes. And no-one bothers to write them twice. | 13:54 |
| ali1234 | but there is supposedly no technical reason it can't be recompiled for other arch | 13:54 |
| ali1234 | you just can't do it without OBS | 13:55 |
| Corsac | ali1234: did you document your work so other people can try? | 13:55 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: yes | 13:55 |
| Corsac | mind giving me the url? | 13:55 |
| Corsac | :) | 13:55 |
| slaine_ | They used SSSE3 as they claimed it gave them a 15-20% improvement with graphical applications | 13:55 |
| slaine_ | I wanted to use Moblin Foundation on non Atom hardware and hence why I tried to rebuild it last year | 13:56 |
| jebba | timeless: new IP: 184.73.240.82, dns entry forthcoming | 13:56 |
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| ali1234 | Corsac: http://pastebin.ca/1806676 | 13:57 |
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| Corsac | thanks | 13:59 |
| jebba | timeless: mxr.moego.org sry for egocentric domain, but it was just too tempting ;) | 13:59 |
| slaine_ | ali1234: what host os where you using ? | 14:00 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: ubuntu 9.10 | 14:00 |
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| sharpneli | ali1234: Have you tried to search how many files depend on emmintrin.h or whichever of those was the sse3 spesific? | 14:00 |
| slaine_ | hmmm, k | 14:00 |
| ali1234 | sharpneli: no, because i didn't even get as far as trying to turn off ssse3 | 14:01 |
| slaine_ | did the above build command work ? | 14:01 |
| sharpneli | Ah. | 14:01 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: didn't try it yet | 14:01 |
| slaine_ | k | 14:01 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: ubuntu 9.10 doesnt have build in the repo, but there is a suse repo for it for 9.10 which i have installed | 14:01 |
| ali1234 | but i will need to mirror all the rest of the moblin repo first anyway | 14:02 |
| ali1234 | i only have the srpms and themock cache | 14:02 |
| ali1234 | i can probably sort something out fromthat | 14:02 |
| slaine_ | I'll try it now | 14:02 |
| slaine_ | as I have all the src rpms downloaded | 14:02 |
| ali1234 | i think you need the binaries too... | 14:02 |
| ali1234 | also the link you have to mirror 404s | 14:03 |
| slaine_ | I'm not getting a 404 | 14:10 |
| ali1234 | http://repo.moblin.org/moblin/development/core/ia32/os/ | 14:10 |
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| ali1234 | 404s for me | 14:10 |
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| ali1234 | if it was structured the same way as ftp.moblin.org then it only points to binary rpms | 14:12 |
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| slaine_ | I get "no spec files or src rpms found in...." when I try it | 14:14 |
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| ali1234 | you probably need repospec? | 14:15 |
| ali1234 | i suspect it needs binary rpms not src rpms, and gets the src rpms from the repospec | 14:15 |
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| slaine_ | hmmm | 14:15 |
| slaine_ | seem a bit chicken and egg | 14:16 |
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| ali1234 | indeed | 14:17 |
| ali1234 | i certainly appreciate portage a lot more now | 14:18 |
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| timjiang_ | hi,everybody | 14:58 |
| detective | hi | 14:58 |
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| jebba | ok. Am I missing something here? Per http://meego.com/about/governance Imad Sousou and Valtteri Halla are the technical "leaders" of MeeGo. AFAICT neither has posted a single message to meego-dev or -community. | 15:04 |
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| slaine_ | jebba, that's because they're busy planning how they're going to take over the world | 15:05 |
| slaine_ | I guess | 15:05 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: imad has been hanging out here, so that's one thing :P | 15:05 |
| X-Fade | jebba: They are the Steering Comittee and will talk to Working groups. | 15:05 |
| slaine_ | imad was on here a few times | 15:05 |
| X-Fade | The working groups would need to do the work it seems. | 15:06 |
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| jebba | what's imad's nick? | 15:08 |
| Stskeeps | imad(sometimes imadx) | 15:09 |
| jebba | hmm, cuz that doesn't turn up hits using google searching irc logs. | 15:09 |
| Stskeeps | irc logs were inactive in the start | 15:09 |
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| jebba | ok. Well great. No wonder I can't figure out WTF kind of work I should do for the project. The "leaders" are MIA. | 15:10 |
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| jebba | "10: Silence. Don't answer queries, don't say anything. A company which masters this technique may not need any of the others; it is the most effective community destroyer of them all. " | 15:11 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: i think it's best to get code on the table first, and the first meeting in community is tomorrow | 15:11 |
| Stskeeps | and TSG soon | 15:11 |
| RST38h | jebba: To be fair, Nokia is relatively open about its plans | 15:12 |
| RST38h | jebba: Although you have to speak to the right people. Peter is a right person for example but Quim is not | 15:12 |
| jebba | I'm not sure who Peter is, but Quim for sure. But he seems to have more questions than answers. | 15:13 |
| slaine_ | He's also contradicted what Intel eng's have said to me | 15:13 |
| slaine_ | so it's hard to know | 15:14 |
| jebba | I'm a bit perplexed how Maemo6/harmattan will become MeeGo/harmattan if there is the transition to RPM, but harmattan will still be based on deb. | 15:14 |
| Corsac | ali1234: hmhm but your howto is about building “some” rpms, not about building an image, is it? | 15:14 |
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| RST38h | jebba: Peter Schneider, Maemo marketing | 15:14 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: after you built all the rpms you make an image using MIC | 15:15 |
| ali1234 | or so i was told | 15:15 |
| X-Fade | jebba: Obviously it is marketing ;) | 15:15 |
| Corsac | ali1234: and from where did you get the rpm list? | 15:15 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: http://ftp.moblin.org/moblin/releases/2.1/source/ | 15:15 |
| X-Fade | jebba: Real MeeGo will be > Harmattan and > Moblin 2.2 it seems. | 15:15 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: ah, that one i wonder about too | 15:15 |
| timjiang_ | Can meego support imx31？ | 15:15 |
| lbt_ | hey jebba | 15:16 |
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| Corsac | ali1234: hmhm but there's nothing to cook all the stuff together? | 15:16 |
| Corsac | or was it mic purpose? | 15:17 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: MIC does that | 15:17 |
| jebba | X-Fade: well then the first "real" meego/nokia device is like a year+ off. Seems if they are taking the plunge to meego, they might as well break over to RPM asap. | 15:17 |
| jebba | hey lbt_ | 15:17 |
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| RST38h | timjiang: http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process | 15:17 |
| X-Fade | jebba: Problem I see is that we only got an announcement, it is nothing more at the moment. | 15:17 |
| Stskeeps | and rest is left to well, decide and code | 15:17 |
| X-Fade | jebba: people expect it to be more than it is atm. | 15:17 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:17 |
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| Corsac | problem with that announcement is that it basically stopped everything else until people know more | 15:18 |
| X-Fade | Corsac: It would have been better to publish a timeframe, yes. | 15:19 |
| slaine_ | Corsac: ali1234 MIC doesn't do everything | 15:19 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: it takes a bunch of binary rpms and makes them into a bootable image... | 15:20 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: but since we didn't get as far as building all RPMs yet, i didn't even try it, so it isn't in my log | 15:20 |
| slaine_ | well, yes, but it doesn't make the binary rpms, which is what Corsac was referring to I think | 15:20 |
| Corsac | yeah but I was more speaking about a script/tool which would take a config file in input and give an image at output :) | 15:20 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: My crystal balls say they will roll out the details and the first code delivery around March 2-5 | 15:21 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: i.e. will time it to CeBIT | 15:21 |
| Corsac | RST38h: you have crystal balls? | 15:21 |
| RST38h | Corsac: You didn't know? | 15:21 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: yeah and MIC is that tool but it needs you to supply it with binary RPMs too | 15:21 |
| Corsac | RST38h: I usually don't look there | 15:21 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: You can create pretty slides and displays without going into the technical details :) | 15:21 |
| ali1234 | which is the sticking point, we can't build them, so all we can do is build the same image as on moblin.org | 15:21 |
| Corsac | ali1234: then it's not that tool ;p | 15:21 |
| slaine_ | ali1234: well, it needs you to supply it a repo | 15:22 |
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| Corsac | slaine_: the point was to rebuild everything from scratch | 15:22 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: yeah, there is no tool which bootstraps an image from source in one step | 15:22 |
| slaine_ | Corsac: yes | 15:22 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Yea, but you will still end up revealing more details than an empty website and a mailing list =) | 15:22 |
| ali1234 | except possibly OBS, if you can figure out how it works. and you will need to set up your own instance | 15:22 |
| * RST38h starting to suspect that there is no real SDK for developing under Moblin | 15:23 | |
| slaine_ | ali1234: oh, it seems you where write, that build thing is for building a local source directory against a repo | 15:23 |
| thiago | RST38h: not yet | 15:23 |
| thiago | RST38h: we're working on the MeeGo SDK | 15:23 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: yep, so it's the same as what i am doing with mock | 15:23 |
| RST38h | thiago: How familiar | 15:23 |
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| RST38h | thiago: So, will you use Scratchbox then? =) | 15:23 |
| * RST38h snickers | 15:24 | |
| slaine_ | except mock properly handles .src.rpms | 15:24 |
| thiago | RST38h: hopefully not :-) | 15:24 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: build does too | 15:24 |
| thiago | RST38h: I'd rather something like MADDE | 15:24 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: build and mock are practically the same tool reimplemented | 15:24 |
| RST38h | thiago: But, I mean, given that OBS appears to be some server based tool for remote building... | 15:24 |
| thiago | RST38h: that's not SDK. That's distro building. | 15:24 |
| RST38h | thiago: This leaves us with SB (or hopefully SB2) and Madde | 15:24 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: OBS isn't just for remote building. it's just that you need a login even if you want to use it locally | 15:24 |
| thiago | RST38h: once you have the package done, you submit it to the integration system. | 15:25 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: it's kind of like if you need a login on MSDN to be able to use visual studio... | 15:25 |
| RST38h | ali1234: I.e., it's a made for servers | 15:25 |
| thiago | RST38h: but before you get there, you need to develop the application. That's where the SDK comes in. | 15:25 |
| * RST38h does not need to login to MSDN to use Visual Studio | 15:25 | |
| ali1234 | RST38h: exactly | 15:25 |
| Corsac | that being said, it shouldn't be that hard to develop directly under moblin | 15:25 |
| Corsac | meego, sorry :) | 15:25 |
| RST38h | thiago: Ok, so OBS is the autobuilder. | 15:25 |
| RST38h | thiago: Who is gonna be the scratchbox? | 15:26 |
| thiago | RST38h: the developer who just wants to make apps for MeeGo. | 15:26 |
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| RST38h | thiago: ??? | 15:27 |
| RST38h | not "use", "be" | 15:27 |
| thiago | be? | 15:27 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: OBS is the scratchbox too | 15:27 |
| thiago | sorry? | 15:27 |
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| RST38h | What tool will replace the scratchbox? | 15:27 |
| Tachikoma | is it only my impression ow from the webpage, wiki and such that beside the marketing/cooperate/strategic whatever announcements the whole meego thing is still pretty much in headless chicken mode or do i just get the wrong impression? | 15:27 |
| thiago | why do you want the scratchbox? | 15:27 |
| * RST38h wonders if Moblin had *any* application developers outside Intel so far | 15:27 | |
| RST38h | thiago: Well, let us see | 15:28 |
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| RST38h | thiago: I have got an Ubuntu laptop here where I develop software. I have to compile and package some app for Maeblin on this laptop | 15:28 |
| thiago | RST38h: ok | 15:28 |
| RST38h | thiago: With Maemo, things are rather clear: I type "sb2 make", SB2 starts make inside chrooted Maemo environment | 15:29 |
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| RST38h | thiago: What do I do in Moblin or Maeblin? | 15:29 |
| thiago | RST38h: make | 15:29 |
| RST38h | Just make? | 15:29 |
| thiago | RST38h: yes | 15:29 |
| slaine_ | RST38h: I developed on my Moblin netbook or on a chroot'd image | 15:29 |
| thiago | RST38h: with a properly pre-configured cross-compilation environment | 15:29 |
| Tachikoma | thiago: so that will also build arm binaries ? | 15:30 |
| RST38h | thiago: How does it handle me running Ubuntu? | 15:30 |
| Tachikoma | on a intel machine? | 15:30 |
| RST38h | thiago: On i386 arch? | 15:30 |
| thiago | RST38h: what does that have to do with Ubuntu? | 15:30 |
| Tachikoma | out of the box? | 15:30 |
| thiago | Tachikoma: cross-compilation | 15:30 |
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| slaine_ | Moblin wasn't quite the same as maemo as it wasn't quit targetting a cross platform embedded env. so no tools where setup like that. | 15:30 |
| RST38h | thiago: Once again: I have an i386 laptop with Ubuntu | 15:30 |
| thiago | RST38h: so? | 15:30 |
| thiago | what's the problem? | 15:30 |
| Tachikoma | thiago: yes, i know, I ask if that is working - out of the box as with scratchbosx | 15:30 |
| thiago | I'm not following | 15:30 |
| RST38h | thiago: I need to compile an armel-arch Maeblin package with it. What do I do/ | 15:30 |
| thiago | I develop Qt for Maemo 5 by typing "make" on my Mandriva x86 | 15:30 |
| RST38h | thiago: Just typing "make" will compile me a package for i386 Ubuntu | 15:30 |
| thiago | RST38h: not if you configured it for cross-compilation first. | 15:31 |
| Tachikoma | I guess you have to setup crosscompiling | 15:31 |
| thiago | RST38h: or if you're using a Qt version that was cross-compiled. | 15:31 |
| Tachikoma | which is documented where exactly? ;) | 15:31 |
| ali1234 | thiago: how will i compile a package for meego-arm without an internet connection and without compiling it on actual hardware? what SDK solution will be provided by meego to enable this use case? | 15:31 |
| thiago | ali1234: the SDK solution is not defined | 15:31 |
| rwhitby | ask how one cross-compiles emacs (or something else that needs to run the cross-compiled object as part of the build process) without something like sb2 | 15:31 |
| thiago | but will probably be based on Qt, which means you just need to do qmake && make | 15:31 |
| slaine_ | nor is the toolchain | 15:31 |
| RST38h | thiago: Ok, then how do I configure it for cross compilation? | 15:31 |
| thiago | RST38h: qmake (if it's a Qt app) | 15:32 |
| thiago | RST38h: if it's not qmake-based, then use whatever means the tool provides for cross-compilation | 15:32 |
| Tachikoma | I guess i'll just continue developing for maemo and wait for maego to be more ready for me | 15:32 |
| RST38h | thiago: What if it is a non-Qt app? A hiello world app? | 15:32 |
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| thiago | autoconf does have that. configure --target=arm-none-linux-gnueabi | 15:32 |
| Corsac | use bitbake! | 15:32 |
| RST38h | thiago: what tool? | 15:32 |
| ali1234 | thiago: what if the package is python? | 15:32 |
| RST38h | thiago: Ok, let me make it really simple: | 15:32 |
| ali1234 | thiago: not written in python. actual python. | 15:32 |
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| thiago | ali1234: why do you want to rebuild python? | 15:32 |
| RST38h | thiago: I have a 10-line hello.c that does printf("Hello World\n") | 15:33 |
| ali1234 | thiago: to provide a counter example to your question dodging, basically :) | 15:33 |
| thiago | RST38h: arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc -o hello hello.c | 15:33 |
| RST38h | thiago: How do I compile it into armel-arch Maeblin binary? On i386 Ubuntu? | 15:33 |
| RST38h | Ok | 15:33 |
| RST38h | Now there is a light | 15:33 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: when an app is that simple, cross compilation is dead easy :) | 15:33 |
| rwhitby | you would want to rebuild python because you have just fixed a bug in it ... | 15:33 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: but a lot of apps cannot be cross compiled, canonical example is python interpreter | 15:34 |
| RST38h | Very nice, I compile an Armel binary. What libraries does it link it against? | 15:34 |
| RST38h | ali1234: I am not compiling python interpreters, all my apps compile | 15:34 |
| thiago | the ones provided with the SDK | 15:34 |
| thiago | $ arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc -o hello -xc - <<<'#include <stdio.h> | 15:34 |
| thiago | quote> int main() { printf("Hello, world\n"); }' | 15:34 |
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| rwhitby | ali1234: another example is an app that tries to run the compiled executable as part of the build process | 15:34 |
| thiago | $ file hello | 15:34 |
| thiago | hello: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.14, not stripped | 15:34 |
| RST38h | Ahha, so it is a proper toolchain, pretty much like Open Embedded | 15:34 |
| RST38h | Right? | 15:34 |
| ali1234 | rwhitby: yeah, that is why python fails | 15:34 |
| thiago | RST38h: yes | 15:34 |
| thiago | at least, that's what I *hope* it will be | 15:35 |
| thiago | it's not decided, nor is it even my decision to make | 15:35 |
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| thiago | maybe there will be a SB for the packages that are more complex than hello.c but don't provide a cross-compilation mechanism. | 15:35 |
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| thiago | but I expect that to be part of the "platform development SDK", not the "application development SDK" | 15:36 |
| Corsac | ali1234: though binfmt+qemu-static can help | 15:37 |
| RST38h | thiago: Oh but even a proper OE-styled toolchain is not there yet? Even for i386? | 15:37 |
| thiago | RST38h: you don't need cross-compilation for i386 :-) | 15:37 |
| thiago | RST38h: but no, it's not there. | 15:37 |
| thiago | we're working on it | 15:37 |
| RST38h | thiago: I still need to link to the right libs, so still need a different toolchain | 15:38 |
| ali1234 | RST38h: for i386 you can just use a chroot. as long as you don't want to recompile actual moblin packages | 15:38 |
| thiago | right | 15:38 |
| thiago | RST38h: you need the libraries and the toolchain, even if it's not cross-compilation. | 15:38 |
| thiago | the problem is that, right now, the Moblin SDK is Moblin itself. You install it in a VM and compile inside it. | 15:38 |
| * lbt_ looks back at the FUD for OBS... | 15:38 | |
| thiago | the Maemo 6 SDK is non-existant | 15:38 |
| RST38h | Oh | 15:38 |
| thiago | well, non-public | 15:38 |
| RST38h | thiao: SB2. | 15:39 |
| lbt_ | OBS is not server-only | 15:39 |
| thiago | what we want for MeeGo is something better. | 15:39 |
| ali1234 | lbt_: there you go making contradictory statements again | 15:39 |
| lbt_ | OBS will do the same job as sb2 | 15:39 |
| thiago | hopefully as easy as compiling for Windows CE on Visual Studio or for the iPhone with XCode. | 15:39 |
| lbt_ | ali1234: stfu :) | 15:39 |
| RST38h | lbt: the way ali describes it, it is server-only, you just run server locally | 15:39 |
| ali1234 | lbt_: so how do i run it without a server? | 15:39 |
| thiago | you simply select on Creator "I want to build now for MeeGo x86" and it will do it for you. | 15:39 |
| * RST38h not sure WinCE and iPhone are good analogies here | 15:39 | |
| lbt_ | RST38h: he seems to be an anti-novell troll | 15:39 |
| thiago | RST38h: they're our benchmarks. | 15:39 |
| RST38h | thiago: Please note that I, personally, do not use Creator | 15:40 |
| thiago | RST38h: you can use the toolchain outside Creator, of course. | 15:40 |
| RST38h | thiago: Got a simple X11-bound app that I compile by typing make | 15:40 |
| thiago | RST38h: even if you're using Qt | 15:40 |
| lbt_ | for local building, consider OBS to be a chroot creator | 15:40 |
| thiago | RST38h: hopefully it will be basically just changing $(CC) in your Makefile | 15:40 |
| thiago | well, that's the root of the change | 15:40 |
| RST38h | lbt: If it is indeed a chroot thing, that would be nice | 15:41 |
| lbt_ | to make a Moblin package you do : osc co Moblin:Trunk $pkg; osc build | 15:41 |
| lbt_ | that's it | 15:41 |
| thiago | if your app compiles and runs a tool during its build, it needs to know about $(HOSTCC) too | 15:41 |
| RST38h | thiago: $(CC) and $(LD) and $(CPP) | 15:41 |
| thiago | if it does configure-time checks (like autoconf), it needs to learn how to do cross-compilation checks. | 15:41 |
| thiago | RST38h: right, of course. | 15:41 |
| RST38h | thiao: ok, this stuff will work for me, I am already using it with the OE toolchains | 15:41 |
| lbt_ | thiago: or you could have it all taken care off for you | 15:41 |
| lbt_ | RST38h: in which case you'll be reinventing the wheel | 15:42 |
| thiago | lbt_: not really. How is anything going to automatically detect that toolA needs to be host, while toolB should be ARM? | 15:42 |
| lbt_ | :) | 15:42 |
| lbt_ | it was hard | 15:42 |
| jebba | FWIW, i just asked in #fedora-devel and mock won't just crosscompile for ARM on intel host magickally... that woulda been nice.... | 15:42 |
| lbt_ | but we did it | 15:42 |
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| thiago | lbt_: automatically? | 15:43 |
| thiago | lbt_: is there human intervention? | 15:43 |
| lbt_ | essentially thiago we start with a pure emulated qemu | 15:43 |
| thiago | stop. No CPU emulation. | 15:43 |
| thiago | what is run during build should be host-compiled. | 15:43 |
| thiago | what is installed should be cross-compiled. | 15:43 |
| lbt_ | we allow that too | 15:43 |
| thiago | if it is both run and installed, it should be compiled twice. | 15:43 |
| lbt_ | we allow certain builders to be arm | 15:43 |
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| lbt_ | however, we *do* build a lot using qemu emulation | 15:44 |
| RST38h | lbt: | 15:44 |
| thiago | the difference between a Qt cross-compiled build and an emulated build is in the order of hours | 15:44 |
| thiago | from a couple to over 10 hours. | 15:44 |
| lbt_ | thiago: I know I do it | 15:44 |
| Stskeeps | user level emulation, not system emulation, just fwiw | 15:44 |
| lbt_ | I cross-compile Qt - it was my testcase | 15:44 |
| RST38h | application level, it is called | 15:44 |
| lbt_ | good point Stskeeps | 15:44 |
| thiago | lbt_: however, like I said, I do expect that to exist. | 15:45 |
| thiago | I jsut don't expect it to be in the main SDK. | 15:45 |
| thiago | the main SDK should do no CPU emulation. | 15:45 |
| lbt_ | it exists in OBS | 15:45 |
| lbt_ | which auto installs it for you | 15:45 |
| Stskeeps | thiago: main SDK is qt-only, is it not? | 15:45 |
| RST38h | thiago: I am afraid it will have to | 15:45 |
| thiago | right, for platform build, and for the complex Linux packages that don't do proper cross-compilation. | 15:45 |
| thiago | Stskeeps: yes. | 15:45 |
| thiago | RST38h: no, I don't think it will have to. | 15:45 |
| RST38h | thiago: Better plan for it now than find out the hard way in 2-3 months | 15:45 |
| Stskeeps | thiago: right, this topic is for things that don't cross compile easily | 15:45 |
| thiago | Stskeeps: that doesn't mean you can't use it for building non-Qt apps. | 15:46 |
| Stskeeps | which is non-qt stuff | 15:46 |
| Stskeeps | thiago: of course :) | 15:46 |
| thiago | but my whole point is that the main SDK doesn't need to address that. | 15:46 |
| thiago | it will have to be addressed, eventually, of course. | 15:46 |
| RST38h | thiago: Here is the problem you are gonna hit (and Nokia seemingly hit it already) | 15:46 |
| RST38h | thiago: Once you throw the doors open, all kinds of developers will flow in. Just a relatively small part of them will be Qt app developers. | 15:47 |
| RST38h | thiago: About the same percentage will be GTK+ devs some of whom will be diehards | 15:47 |
| thiago | RST38h: true | 15:47 |
| RST38h | thiago: They will immediately bitch about lack of proper Gtk+ support in the SDK | 15:47 |
| lbt_ | thiago: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/Cross_Build | 15:47 |
| thiago | but the point is that we're trying to attract Qt-based developers, who will use Qt Creator and the main SDK. | 15:47 |
| RST38h | "promised" by Nokia btw | 15:47 |
| thiago | we don't need to burden those with the tools from others | 15:47 |
| thiago | but point taken | 15:48 |
| thiago | RST38h: promised? | 15:48 |
| RST38h | thiago: The point is that you can't disregard all developers but Qt ones | 15:48 |
| lbt_ | thiago: that approach builds all of Mer (and I found out this am, the N900/mer kernel) | 15:48 |
| timjiang_ | I use QT eclipse instead of Qt Creator. | 15:48 |
| RST38h | thiago: Yes, there was a promise that GtK+ still stays in Maemo6, just not being officially supported | 15:48 |
| thiago | RST38h: Gtk+ will be community-supported | 15:48 |
| Stskeeps | isn't the problem that we are speaking two different languages atm? | 15:48 |
| RST38h | thiago: But this is not all yet. Let us screw Gtk+ for now | 15:48 |
| RST38h | thiago: Not if you cannot easily build Gtk+ apps from the official SDK | 15:49 |
| Stskeeps | one is for the application developer targetting Qt and MeeGo APIs, another is for building all things in a system | 15:49 |
| thiago | the level of support it will have is entirely dependent on the community. | 15:49 |
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| RST38h | thiago: Consider all these scripting language people, the ones who compile python, perl, tcl, even gcc for native armel arch | 15:49 |
| Stskeeps | second one can build the first kind of apps, even cross-compile it fast (OBS, _cross), first one can only build Qt apps/libs (MADDE, etc) | 15:49 |
| RST38h | thiago: They will not be able to do their work with your official SDK if it does not support emulation | 15:50 |
| thiago | RST38h: why do they want to compile Python and/or Perl? | 15:50 |
| thiago | it's already compiled? | 15:50 |
| ali1234 | thiago: like was said above, i might find a bug, and not want to wait 3 months for an official fix | 15:50 |
| * lbt_ checks to see if this is an OSS room | 15:50 | |
| RST38h | thiago: Because they want it. For soe reason. | 15:50 |
| thiago | I see | 15:50 |
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| RST38h | thiago: Like, why is ali1234 trying to compile Moblin? Same reason | 15:50 |
| thiago | btw, I am taking notes. | 15:50 |
| Stskeeps | of our names? ;) | 15:51 |
| lbt_ | heh | 15:51 |
| thiago | but I don't think it will be there because it takes a lot of work for us | 15:51 |
| ali1234 | i do recompile ubuntu packages all the time when i find bugs :) | 15:51 |
| RST38h | thiago: Notice that Maemo has made it through all this stuff over the course of its evolution | 15:51 |
| ali1234 | and no, i don't need a launchpad account to do so :) | 15:51 |
| lizardo | RST38h: the python packages will be part of a "Python Application SDK" provided by the community (probably the same people who maintain PyMaemo...) | 15:51 |
| * lbt_ recompiles Qt to fix bugs/add features... | 15:51 | |
| Corsac | lbt_: local osc build still requires an obs api key? | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | god, we really need more information about MeeGo in here.. | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:52 |
| RST38h | thiago: So, you will get a crowd of disappointed developers at the gates who expected to find a complete development kit and found a bunch of config files for Qt Creator instead | 15:52 |
| lbt_ | Corsac: key? no. Login, yes | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: which will go for a Platform SDK instead. | 15:52 |
| lizardo | RST38h: for developers, you will just need to install this "application SDK" (together with the "default" Qt application SDK, if you want to use PySide for instance) to develop python applications | 15:52 |
| Corsac | lbt_: that's weird, do you know why it's needed for? | 15:52 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: When/if it is available and properly advertized to them | 15:52 |
| lbt_ | yes | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i think we're getting ahead of ourselves atm | 15:53 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: they haven't even fully bootstrapped meego on arm yet it looks like. | 15:53 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: In the meanwhile there will be another pr clusterfuck in the best Maemo.org traditions :) | 15:53 |
| lizardo | Stskeeps: agreed :) | 15:53 |
| lbt_ | Corsac: like many services, including t.m.o. we like people to login to use them. | 15:53 |
| lbt_ | Corsac: one thing you need access to the OBS for is to get package dependency trees | 15:54 |
| lizardo | there is no public information of even an architecture char, for instance | 15:54 |
| lizardo | chart* | 15:54 |
| Stskeeps | lbt_: (which i don't understand why needs to be under key and lock) | 15:54 |
| RST38h | isn't chart published at meego.com? | 15:54 |
| lbt_ | Stskeeps: it may not need it | 15:54 |
| lizardo | RST38h: I mean a chart detailed as http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Top_Level_Architecture | 15:54 |
| lbt_ | Stskeeps, Corsac, ali1234 OBS is GPL .... they accept patches. If you find this an issue then help fix it :) | 15:54 |
| lizardo | which mentions precisely the techologies and APIs involved | 15:55 |
| ali1234 | lbt_: the issue isn't of code, it is of lack of documentation | 15:55 |
| Corsac | lbt_: for the final submit, I can imagine why it's useful to be online, but for local testing/building, why does it require a login? | 15:55 |
| lbt_ | ali1234: the code is the docs | 15:55 |
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| lbt_ | Corsac: because it was written to and no-one cared | 15:55 |
| lbt_ | very few people care about using nw services nowadays. | 15:56 |
| Corsac | ok, so it's indeed a “web”-service, and its purpose it definitely not to be a sdk | 15:56 |
| lbt_ | most people respect the need for security | 15:56 |
| lbt_ | Corsac: it's not a web service | 15:56 |
| thiago | RST38h: and a toolchain. | 15:56 |
| Corsac | yeah, an online service | 15:56 |
| Corsac | or connected service | 15:56 |
| thiago | RST38h: I'm just saying that CPU emulation may be missing. | 15:56 |
| thiago | RST38h: because it's onerous and I don't think we have planned for it. | 15:57 |
| RST38h | thiago: Which will kill those pesky python etc people | 15:57 |
| lbt_ | Corsac: nope | 15:57 |
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| RST38h | thiago: BTW, there is another problem | 15:57 |
| thiago | RST38h: OBS is still there, though | 15:57 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: how? if there's a reference MeeGo VM you can boot for x86 | 15:57 |
| lbt_ | it's an offline service with an implementation glitch that means it needs a ping to run | 15:57 |
| thiago | if OBS can cross-compile to ARM, you get a package after a few hours. | 15:57 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: nah, but there is a chart | 15:57 |
| lbt_ | thiago: locally or remotely | 15:57 |
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| Stskeeps | RST38h: the arch chart .. don't get me started :P | 15:57 |
| RST38h | Hmm...Ok, so they will have to get an account on OBS | 15:58 |
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| Corsac | lbt_: ok, if it's an “implementation glitch” it shouldn't be that hard to remove it in the end | 15:58 |
| lbt_ | Corsac: indeed | 15:58 |
| Stskeeps | Corsac: it isn't, it's entirely possible to patch | 15:58 |
| Corsac | lbt_: and it won't pose problems to anyone? | 15:58 |
| lbt_ | Corsac: patches accepted | 15:58 |
| lbt_ | nope | 15:58 |
| ShadowJK | I guess the issue of OBS being an overloaded term confuses | 15:58 |
| Corsac | ok | 15:58 |
| Corsac | I missed that part :) | 15:58 |
| jebba | it's all flying by so fast. How does OBS build for ARM? Crosscompiling or with qemu-arm? | 15:58 |
| lbt_ | np | 15:58 |
| RST38h | thiago: Not sure if anyone thought of it, but there will be companies willing to run Maeblin on CPUs that are not Atom or OMAP3 | 15:58 |
| lbt_ | jebba: qemu arm | 15:58 |
| RST38h | thiago: Usually, small Chinese companies producing low-cost gadgets | 15:58 |
| lbt_ | jebba: *BUT* | 15:58 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: qemu-arm, user level emulated, plus what lbt is about to explain | 15:59 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:59 |
| lbt_ | with an sbox-like twist for a *TINY* set of build tools | 15:59 |
| thiago | RST38h: right, but they can do "make world" for themselves | 15:59 |
| RST38h | thiago: So, expect Snapdragon, iMX31/iMX51, tegra, and even some MIPS | 15:59 |
| jebba | ya, cuz that will likely be a dog inside of a xen instance (e.g. amazon ec2= | 15:59 |
| lbt_ | jebba: *WHICH USE THE SAME SOURCE AS THE NON-CROSS TOOLS* | 15:59 |
| lbt_ | jebba: nope | 15:59 |
| thiago | RST38h: anyway, those questions have not been answered. | 16:00 |
| RST38h | thiago: Has anyone made sure they *can* "make world" from the current code base and get a working system? | 16:00 |
| jebba | ok good ;) | 16:00 |
| lbt_ | because 80%+ of the build is double-cross-compiled | 16:00 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: OBS will help that immensely, trust me :P | 16:00 |
| thiago | RST38h: current? probably not. Future? We'll see. | 16:00 |
| thiago | RST38h: I'm at least writing down the questions so that they get asked. | 16:00 |
| thiago | I can't promise the answer will satisfy you, though. | 16:00 |
| thiago | like no Gtk+ or CPU emulation in the official SDK. | 16:00 |
| RST38h | thiago: This of course depends on whether you want Maeblin to spread outside Nokia/Intel alliance | 16:00 |
| ShadowJK | Would be cool if moblin ran on Stallman's MIPS laptop ;-) | 16:01 |
| RST38h | thiago: Again, me, personally, is perfectly satisfied with OE-style toolchain | 16:01 |
| thiago | we do, of course, but we want people to use Qt. | 16:01 |
| RST38h | $(CC) etc | 16:01 |
| Stskeeps | thiago: official sdk will basically be qt creator + MADDE like stuff to build for ARM? | 16:01 |
| jebba | stallman's mips laptop is pretty dog slow.... | 16:01 |
| RST38h | thiago: Qt is just a layer of icing on top. They will use Qt. | 16:01 |
| Stskeeps | thiago: and maybe a reference MeeGo impl in a VM | 16:01 |
| RST38h | jebba: MIPS is dog slow. | 16:01 |
| thiago | Stskeeps: unknown, but that's my hope. | 16:01 |
| thiago | Stskeeps: lean and mean. | 16:01 |
| RST38h | jebba: There are reasons for that | 16:01 |
| Stskeeps | thiago: i hope so too, actually - focuses development | 16:01 |
| Stskeeps | scratchbox scared more developers tha it helped | 16:02 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: sb2. | 16:02 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: don't get me started on sb2.. | 16:02 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:02 |
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| thiago | anyway, we cross-compile Qt for MIPS and for PowerPC. So if you have a suitable toolchain, it should work. | 16:02 |
| thiago | the problem is when people have bad toolchains, which they often do | 16:03 |
| thiago | I was having a discussion in #qt-labs about an hour ago on the use of pkg-config | 16:03 |
| thiago | the official way to use gstreamer, for example, is to detect it via pkg-config. Right? | 16:03 |
| Stskeeps | right | 16:03 |
| RST38h | thiago: that is the official way for everything | 16:03 |
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| thiago | ok, so we start with the problem that the latest official release of pkg-config (0.23) has a bug that makes cross-compilation impossible | 16:04 |
| thiago | it simply doesn't work once you set PKG_CONFIG_SYSROOT_DIR | 16:04 |
| thiago | there's a patch applied to pkg-config mainline, which many distros carry, but it's not in any release (the patch is only 2 years old) | 16:04 |
| Stskeeps | i assume you mean non-scratchbox like cross-compilation | 16:04 |
| thiago | then the next problem is that many toolchains simply don't ship the .pc files | 16:04 |
| RST38h | Scarier thing is that Maemo documentation seems to imply that autoconf is the standard way | 16:04 |
| thiago | yes, non-SB | 16:05 |
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| thiago | we have horror stories of trying to install SB in non-Debian-based distributions | 16:05 |
| RST38h | And autoconf has been rendered useless long time ago | 16:05 |
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| thiago | I run Mandriva, one of our developers uses Fedora and he spent a week trying it | 16:05 |
| RST38h | thiago: on the other hand, SB "patriotically" hates AMD | 16:05 |
| Corsac | and x86_64 | 16:05 |
| thiago | until he gave in and ran Kubuntu inside a VM just so he could use SB | 16:06 |
| ShadowJK | I run fedora, I downloaded the ubuntu+sdk VM image without trying to install on fedora ;-) | 16:06 |
| thiago | ShadowJK: you see my point | 16:06 |
| thiago | so you're doing ARM emulation inside an emulated x86 | 16:06 |
| thiago | meanwhile, I'm doing pure cross-compilation in a build farm... | 16:06 |
| jebba | i ran it ok on fedora x86_64 fwiw.... | 16:06 |
| * RST38h runs Ubuntu and fully expects the same kind of troubles running Maeblin SDK | 16:07 | |
| Corsac | I run debian and installed scratchbox in a kvm i386 box :/ | 16:07 |
| thiago | RST38h: hopefully that won't happen | 16:07 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: main SDK already looks saner | 16:07 |
| Stskeeps | (for Qt apps.) | 16:07 |
| ShadowJK | Well it's kvm, first time I compiled anything, make -j 4, I was like "huh, that must've been complete failure when it completed that fast" | 16:07 |
| ShadowJK | (it wasn't) | 16:07 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: if it is a toolchain only, should work like a charm | 16:07 |
| * thiago loves make -j60 | 16:07 | |
| ShadowJK | lol | 16:07 |
| thiago | I need a faster CPU to be able to use the other two thirds of the compile farm, though | 16:08 |
| thiago | the farm compiles faster than my machine can preprocess | 16:08 |
| aboyer | thiago: nice! the secret to timely qt release | 16:08 |
| timeless_mbp | ? | 16:08 |
| thiago | aboyer: Qt releases depend on build on machines that can't build on the farm | 16:09 |
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| thiago | like those pesky UltraSPARC (with 24 CPUs) and POWER5 (with one) | 16:09 |
| thiago | oh, we also have two Itanium | 16:09 |
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| ali1234 | so who can walk me through building a source rpm using OBS, bearing in mind that the binary rpms i want to build against don't exist on any OBS server i have access to? | 16:13 |
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| benbrown | I have an UltraSPARC IIi | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: i really hope there's plans for a open meego OBS, as development of the distro will be -painful- for outsiders otherwise | 16:17 |
| benbrown | Only one CPU tho. | 16:17 |
| * ShadowJK has hypersparc and Ultrasparc II..e i think... | 16:17 | |
| benbrown | Old Netra T1 | 16:17 |
| * Corsac has an ultra 10 | 16:17 | |
| * ShadowJK has a netra too :) | 16:17 | |
| ShadowJK | and a Blade 105 iirc | 16:18 |
| benbrown | I like netras. Nice and small, don't use too much power | 16:18 |
| ShadowJK | Yes well, compare it with a sheevaplug.. | 16:18 |
| benbrown | In fact the irc client I'm using right now is running on my netra | 16:18 |
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| Corsac | ali1234: if you miss some rpm to build against and don't have the sources to rebuild them, it might be painful :) | 16:18 |
| * RST38h guesses nobody has an IPX or a SPARC4 nowadays | 16:19 | |
| ali1234 | Corsac: i have the rpms, they're just not in an OBS server | 16:19 |
| benbrown | could try getting the source upstream if possible | 16:19 |
| ali1234 | i'm hoping someone can tell me how i put them in one | 16:19 |
| Corsac | ali1234: I'd like to give some help but don't have much time, thus my asking about the script which would do the src.rpm list, download them and feed them to mock | 16:19 |
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| benbrown | I've never used rpms, I mainly use debian or solaris | 16:20 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: for i in *; do mock rebuild $; done | 16:20 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: i think it's worth waiting a bit for real meego release to be out and then play by ear on some experiments we'll also be doing | 16:20 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: so while i'm waiting, i want to learn how to set up an OBS instance, and put my own distro into it | 16:20 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: right - first off, the main OBS part can be in a VM but the workers has to be on bare metal | 16:21 |
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| Stskeeps | got an available server that can churn as a worker? | 16:21 |
| Corsac | ali1234: yeah, that miss the download part, though I guess a wget --mirror --no-parent should work | 16:21 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: just my desktop PC running ubuntu | 16:22 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i notice obs-worker is available in the suse ubutu repos | 16:22 |
| Stskeeps | it is? | 16:22 |
| ali1234 | yeah. but not obs-server | 16:22 |
| Stskeeps | obs-server doesn't matter, but if you can run obs-worker on ubuntu it would be nice | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | obs-server can be in a vm for what matters | 16:23 |
| slaine_ | Corsac: I've a script that does that | 16:23 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: yeah i used wget | 16:24 |
| slaine_ | it gets the index.html from the repo, and parses it for the links, then pulls down the links via wget | 16:24 |
| Corsac | slaine_: available somewhere? | 16:24 |
| Corsac | oh | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | is there an option so tar doesn't cross filesystem lines btw? | 16:24 |
| ali1234 | there is, but i forget what it is | 16:24 |
| Corsac | yeah then wget --mirror --no-directories --no-parent should work, though a bit less smart | 16:24 |
| slaine_ | But that's no the problem | 16:24 |
| tybollt | Stskeeps: yeah man page - search for "traverse" | 16:24 |
| slaine_ | not the problem | 16:24 |
| thiago | --one-file-system | 16:25 |
| Stskeeps | ah, there | 16:25 |
| Stskeeps | i'm going to make a 'backup my entire n900' system, so | 16:25 |
| dl9pf_ | whois thiago | 16:26 |
| slaine_ | ali1234: if you change the mockbuild users path to exclude the /sbin and /usr/sbin, your tar rpm failure won't happen | 16:26 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: yeah but it doesn't solve the dependency ordering problem, or any of the other build errors | 16:26 |
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| slaine_ | got an example ? | 16:27 |
| ali1234 | loads :) | 16:27 |
| ali1234 | hang on | 16:27 |
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| slaine_ | ali1234: I think we need to replicate this, for the mock config, http://moblin.org/sites/all/files/moblin_0.txt | 16:29 |
| ali1234 | quite possibly | 16:29 |
| ali1234 | build config is a lot more complicated than mock config though | 16:29 |
| slaine_ | quite likely | 16:29 |
| ali1234 | but it's basically just describing the chroot, yeah? | 16:30 |
| slaine_ | yeah | 16:30 |
| slaine_ | and how to manage it | 16:30 |
| ali1234 | ah... mock doesn't do so much management | 16:30 |
| villemv | thiago: can you use scratchbox normally on mandriva? | 16:30 |
| ali1234 | i think we are better off using build tbh | 16:30 |
| Corsac | basically what's needed is something like apt-build or portage? | 16:30 |
| slaine_ | but how to get build to work with source rpms is the next question | 16:30 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: it does work with source rpms | 16:30 |
| ali1234 | but you have to give it binary rpms to build the chroot out of | 16:31 |
| ali1234 | that it what the --repo command is for | 16:31 |
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| slaine_ | that's the repo part right / | 16:31 |
| slaine_ | Does that have to be local ? | 16:31 |
| ali1234 | in this sense it is identical to mock | 16:31 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: dunno, does it matter? mock uses yum to build the chroot so it can fetch and cache them | 16:31 |
| slaine_ | well, I've tried using build over lunch there but made no progress | 16:32 |
| thiago | villemv: I don't think so. | 16:32 |
| villemv | ok, too bad | 16:32 |
| thiago | villemv: which is why I built my own toolchain. | 16:32 |
| thiago | and upgraded gcc to 4.4 | 16:33 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: all my failing logs: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/fail/ | 16:33 |
| villemv | thiago: armel binaries built with gcc4.4 work fine I assume? | 16:33 |
| ali1234 | seems quite a few are the info/dir thing | 16:33 |
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| slaine_ | well, the user path will sove that | 16:35 |
| thiago | villemv: yeus | 16:35 |
| slaine_ | solve | 16:35 |
| thiago | I had one issue that gcc 4.4 outputs one instruction that binutils that comes with the toolchain can't use | 16:36 |
| slaine_ | How does one point build to a src rpm then ? | 16:37 |
| ali1234 | build --repo /path/to/repo/mirror --target i586 <your srpm> | 16:38 |
| ali1234 | i assume anyway | 16:38 |
| slaine_ | nope | 16:38 |
| ali1234 | hmm | 16:38 |
| slaine_ | Oh, I take that back | 16:38 |
| slaine_ | I thought it used the current dir | 16:39 |
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| slaine_ | ali1234: I think the binary rpms need to be local after all | 16:42 |
| ali1234 | yeah, almost certainly | 16:42 |
| slaine_ | lame, would have thougt it'd use yum to get them | 16:43 |
| ali1234 | it's ot so bad | 16:43 |
| ali1234 | *not | 16:43 |
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| slaine_ | I'll kick off a download | 16:50 |
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| ali1234 | same. downloading opensuse 11.2 DVD too so i can set up a obs-server | 16:56 |
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| slaine_ | It'll probably be tomorrow before I can get it working fully | 16:58 |
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| ali1234 | getting 1mbyte/second from moblin.org here :) | 16:58 |
| slaine_ | lucky you | 16:58 |
| ali1234 | i'll run out of internet allowance at this rate | 16:59 |
| slaine_ | I'm pulling from the kernel mirrors | 16:59 |
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| ali1234 | that has slowed some since i started the suse torrent | 16:59 |
| slaine_ | we've a 4mbit leased line so it'll take a while | 16:59 |
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| slaine_ | Ewww, qt-creator is slow | 17:37 |
| leinir | define slow | 17:40 |
| slaine_ | the UI is pretty laggy on my netbook | 17:41 |
| thiago | is it still indexing your code? | 17:42 |
| slaine_ | I don't have any code | 17:42 |
| slaine_ | fresh install on a netbook | 17:42 |
| Jaffa | slaine_: Netbooks and IDEs don't really mix, IME | 17:42 |
| slaine_ | from a usability standpoint, i'd agree. But I'd be worried from a performance POV | 17:42 |
| tybollt | are there snapshots of the latest devel of meego available for the X86 platform? | 17:43 |
| * tybollt puts on asbestos pans | 17:43 | |
| tybollt | pants | 17:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | slaine_, problem with Tegra is that it's only advantage is the HD. | 17:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Besides, can you even get drivers for it for Linux? | 17:44 |
| slaine_ | GeneralAntilles: I'd imagine only if you sign some nvidia NDA :) | 17:44 |
| ShadowJK | If you're Nokia you could probably get non-redistributable binary drivers.. | 17:44 |
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| slaine_ | GeneralAntilles: And HD is exactly why I'm interested in it | 17:44 |
| ShadowJK | If you're incorporated, and in the US, you can buy Tegra development boards. | 17:44 |
| ShadowJK | they seem to come with a linux support package | 17:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | slaine_, too bad about the rest of it, though. | 17:45 |
| slaine_ | ShadowJK: Yeah, that's where my questions earlier where directed, as in, what to do if you're in europe | 17:45 |
| slaine_ | GeneralAntilles: lol | 17:45 |
| slaine_ | It looks good to me to be honest | 17:45 |
| slaine_ | But what do I know | 17:45 |
| ShadowJK | slaine_, I dunno, send briefcase of cash to GeneralAntilles, have him setup a company to buy the board and ship it to you? | 17:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, hardly any open source support, old one is ARM11 | 17:46 |
| ShadowJK | TI is awesome, anyone can buy beagleboard anywhere in the world :-) | 17:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Can the 720MHz OMAP3530 handle 1080p? | 17:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm almost certain it should be able to do at least 720p with NEON. | 17:46 |
| ShadowJK | well it does mpeg4 asp at 720p with neon.. probably | 17:47 |
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| GeneralAntilles | The DSP's faster too | 17:47 |
| ShadowJK | The open DSP codecs are fast, the closed DSP codecs faster | 17:47 |
| slaine_ | ShadowJK: Yeah, but are there ODM's out there that would sell me 300 boxes based on a beagleboard production unit, that's the question | 17:47 |
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| GeneralAntilles | slaine_, perhaps talk to ds3? | 17:48 |
| ShadowJK | hm, yeah :) | 17:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | slaine_, jkridner on #beagle may be another good option (TI guy). | 17:48 |
| slaine_ | that a company or a user ? | 17:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | slaine_, Freenode user. | 17:48 |
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| GeneralAntilles | slaine_, ds3's stuff: http://www.hy-research.com/beagle_mid.html | 17:48 |
| slaine_ | Thanks | 17:49 |
| ShadowJK | I wonder who pandora uses | 17:49 |
| ShadowJK | GeneralAntilles, as for neon, MPlayer on N900 | 17:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK, better than it used to be? | 17:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | Actually, the biggest problem was that it wasn't optified. :P | 17:51 |
| ShadowJK | It's optified now | 17:51 |
| ShadowJK | And it's from december or so.. there might be maybe 10% speedup on h264 since then overall... and ffmpeg's aac decoder gained some major speed boosts.. | 17:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Cool | 17:53 |
| ShadowJK | ffmpeg's guru went on a h264 micro-optimization spree.. | 17:54 |
| ShadowJK | I haven't benchmarked it though, so 10% is just purely guessing | 17:54 |
| ShadowJK | lots of 0.5% speedup in special case X | 17:54 |
| ShadowJK | might add up to some real boost eventually ;) | 17:55 |
| RST38h | Prolly not | 17:56 |
| RST38h | Depends on the architecture too | 17:56 |
| ShadowJK | Anyway, this "720p" and "1080p" buzzwords are so useless. People assume "h264 high profile at 60 fps zomg", when in reality it might be ASP @ 24fps | 17:56 |
| RST38h | Neon on ARM, SSSSSSSSEx on Atom | 17:56 |
| ShadowJK | From what I've seen of the work done the last months it's been restrucuring the higher level C code | 17:57 |
| Scelt_ | last http 10 | 17:58 |
| ShadowJK | My Atom 330 can handle about 720p h264 main profile.. | 17:58 |
| ShadowJK | 1080p h264 main would work with "simple" animated content that doesn't pan around much :D | 17:59 |
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| benbrown | I thought I had mplayer on N900, but it was KMplayer | 18:00 |
| benbrown | just downloaded mplayer and it's much smoother | 18:00 |
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| ShadowJK | I should try push maemo's MPlayer maintainer to include a sensible default mplayer.conf too :) | 18:01 |
| ShadowJK | -ao pulse -vo xv:ck-method=auto | 18:01 |
| * GeneralAntilles chuckles at http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-February/000052.html | 18:01 | |
| benbrown | didn't try audio, at work. did -ao null -fs | 18:01 |
| ShadowJK | ah | 18:02 |
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| ShadowJK | People criticize mplayer for being gigantic (it's, what, a 20 meg executable?), but still it manages to cause less swapout activity than N900's built-in media player :-) | 18:02 |
| benbrown | I use mplayer for all my video needs on my linux boxes | 18:03 |
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| slaine_ | ali1234: up to samba at the moment | 18:27 |
| slaine_ | I'll check it tomorrow | 18:27 |
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| salemsnake | hmm | 18:38 |
| salemsnake | how does this thing work | 18:38 |
| salemsnake | i only wanted to ask some questions | 18:38 |
| Stskeeps | well, feel free to ask | 18:38 |
| salemsnake | haha | 18:39 |
| salemsnake | thanks | 18:39 |
| salemsnake | a real classic | 18:39 |
| tripzero | but note that we usually only have 8ball responses | 18:39 |
| salemsnake | and please don`t hit me | 18:39 |
| salemsnake | :-) | 18:39 |
| leinir | salemsnake: think of this as a really big icq/msn/y!/whatever group chat :) | 18:39 |
| salemsnake | hmm | 18:39 |
| salemsnake | on meego right | 18:39 |
| salemsnake | ? | 18:39 |
| tripzero | rep | 18:40 |
| tripzero | yep | 18:40 |
| leinir | Yes, a group chat with a topic, in this case meego :) | 18:40 |
| salemsnake | ah ok | 18:40 |
| salemsnake | thanks | 18:40 |
| salemsnake | so | 18:40 |
| salemsnake | the question | 18:40 |
| salemsnake | is meego going to be on n900 | 18:40 |
| tripzero | the future is uncertain | 18:40 |
| tripzero | that should be a FAQ | 18:41 |
| tripzero | ;) | 18:41 |
| salemsnake | haha | 18:41 |
| salemsnake | yes | 18:41 |
| RST38h | Yes, the faq should be subtitled "the future is uncertain" | 18:41 |
| salemsnake | but it wasant in the faq at the meego site | 18:41 |
| salemsnake | ha | 18:41 |
| tripzero | right. it gets asked enough that it should be | 18:41 |
| salemsnake | yes it should | 18:41 |
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| tripzero | salemsnake, the short answer is, you probably shouldn't expect to see a device running meego for some time | 18:42 |
| Corsac | you mean a nokia device? | 18:42 |
| RST38h | any device | 18:42 |
| salemsnake | true true | 18:42 |
| tripzero | right | 18:42 |
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| salemsnake | yes nokia | 18:42 |
| RST38h | but if things go right, there will be an explosion of devices at some point | 18:42 |
| Corsac | RST38h: what about that LG moblin^Wmeego phone? | 18:42 |
| tripzero | there *could* be a device running meego before nokia, but who knows if it'll be this year | 18:42 |
| Corsac | RST38h: not sure “explosion” is the right term | 18:42 |
| Corsac | or is it? | 18:42 |
| RST38h | Corsac: Afaik it is not exactly meego | 18:42 |
| RST38h | Corsac: It is moblin with some pieces from elsewhere | 18:43 |
| salemsnake | so | 18:43 |
| Corsac | yeah, the same thing as maemo6 | 18:43 |
| salemsnake | hmm | 18:43 |
| Corsac | rebranded as meego but still largely the old one | 18:43 |
| salemsnake | isn`t maemo 6 and meego the same thing? | 18:44 |
| RST38h | Corsac: Using Moorestown SoC | 18:44 |
| Corsac | maemo6 will be *branded* as meego | 18:44 |
| Corsac | that's all we know | 18:44 |
| tripzero | where's that post on the n900 and meego by Stskeeps | 18:44 |
| twouters | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45213 | 18:46 |
| * tripzero bookmarks | 18:46 | |
| twouters | google: maemo stskeeps :p | 18:46 |
| megabast | someone knows how to disable clutter from mutter?? I set clutter_disable key to TRUE, but it changes nothing, thanx for help :) | 18:48 |
| lcuk | you need a putter to disable clutter from mutter | 18:48 |
| tripzero | megabast, just turn of compositing? | 18:48 |
| arjan | megabast: ehhh | 18:48 |
| arjan | megabast : what is the point? | 18:49 |
| arjan | mutter without clutter is like a car without wheels | 18:49 |
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| tripzero | it's just "m" at that point | 18:49 |
| megabast | mutter without clutter is like metacity, but I want to see moblin without clutter effects | 18:49 |
| megabast | it s just to test it | 18:49 |
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| salemsnake | well my question has been answered thanks tripzero and twouters :-) | 18:51 |
| * RST38h would also like to see moblin without clutter effects and reliance on powervr | 18:51 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | I love people who make after-the-fact web tooling change suggestions with "just because" reasoning. | 18:52 |
| jebba | moinmoin? | 18:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah | 18:52 |
| jebba | man, that would suck. viva mediawiki.... | 18:52 |
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| jebba | i was almost tempted to post a followup to that...... | 18:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | jebba, I just fired one off. | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | yes, moinmoin over the crazy i18n in moinmoin | 18:53 |
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| jebba | plus we can just copy & paste a bit from the old wiki. Probably not as much as we'd like though...since the major ground shift from deb | 18:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Does anybody else find that the links on mobile sites are usually harder to hit than regular ones? http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-February/000055.html | 18:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Considering most of them target QVGA or worse. . . . | 18:55 |
| benbrown | GeneralAntilles: I don't use mobile sites, the regular ones are generally much nicer | 18:55 |
| Tachikoma | full ack | 18:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | benbrown, there's no point on Maemo. | 18:56 |
| benbrown | indeed | 18:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | benbrown, oh, by the way, iPhone 3GS uses a Samsung SoC. | 18:57 |
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| benbrown | ahh right. Same chips tho right? | 18:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | No | 18:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Same ARM core (Cortex A8) | 18:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | But with different parts in the SoC | 18:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | from different manufacturers. | 18:58 |
| benbrown | same PowerVR? | 18:58 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Similar, not the same | 18:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | and the iPhone 3GS doesn't have it on the SoC. | 18:59 |
| RST38h | BTW, I may have a chance to program for that Samsung SoC soon | 18:59 |
| RST38h | Android, too =( | 18:59 |
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| leinir | RST38h: Well... for that you can just use Qt ;) | 19:00 |
| RST38h | leinir: Not really. But I guess I will have to find whatever keyhole they left for native apps =( | 19:02 |
| leinir | i take it you saw that Android Lighthouse thing :) | 19:02 |
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| leinir | http://code.google.com/p/android-lighthouse/ <-- if you have not :) | 19:06 |
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| megabast | so no ideas to launch moblin without clutter effects? | 19:07 |
| arjan | what does that mean? | 19:08 |
| arjan | if you don't use the launch bar... what do you have??? | 19:08 |
| tripzero | megabast, moblin without clutter isn't much | 19:08 |
| tripzero | you may as well not even start x | 19:08 |
| megabast | it 's just to see what it displays | 19:09 |
| megabast | I think you have the launch bar | 19:09 |
| tripzero | without clutter there is no launch bar | 19:09 |
| tripzero | and thus, nothing else | 19:09 |
| megabast | You have a key into mutter to disable clutter, but seems don't work | 19:09 |
| megabast | in README of mutter-moblin, this key is mentionned | 19:10 |
| megabast | so that means you could try | 19:10 |
| tripzero | metacity --replace | 19:11 |
| tripzero | that's how you run mutter without clutter | 19:11 |
| megabast | clutter_disabled: if set to true, disables the clutter compositor | 19:11 |
| megabast | falling back to the xrender compositor. | 19:11 |
| megabast | tripzero: I agree, but I want to use mutter-moblin | 19:12 |
| tripzero | why? | 19:12 |
| tripzero | mutter without clutter would just be metacity. | 19:12 |
| megabast | I need to create an interface like moblin, so I need to see which components I can remove from moblin | 19:13 |
| megabast | to start from minimize interface | 19:13 |
| tripzero | yum remove clutter | 19:13 |
| tripzero | that should pull out all the interface | 19:13 |
| megabast | why not | 19:14 |
| megabast | that will delete also moblin packages | 19:15 |
| megabast | nevermind, I suppose it's not possible | 19:15 |
| megabast | thanks for your answers guys | 19:15 |
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| jebba | anyone know offhand a link to the "why we are just bootstrapping and not being a downstream distro" question? | 19:36 |
| arjan | jebba: sure... | 19:37 |
| Stskeeps | well, part is that for a proper mobile distro, you need to molest the system a fair bit | 19:37 |
| th0br0 | jebba: http://meego.com/about/faq | 19:37 |
| th0br0 | Is MeeGo based on another distribution (like Fedora or Debian)? | 19:37 |
| th0br0 | No. Meego is its own independent distribution, run as an open source project. In that sense you can consider MeeGo an upstream distribution, that itself pulls from the upstream of the various open source projects it is based on. | 19:37 |
| arjan | to be able to do things we want to do we end up building the basic OS from scratch | 19:38 |
| arjan | and that's about mobile/client/etc | 19:38 |
| th0br0 | or jebba http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging --> upstream | 19:38 |
| jebba | ya, i was hoping for link/info to pass on to fedora-arm list | 19:38 |
| th0br0 | that's likely what you're looking for | 19:38 |
| arjan | at least on the moblin side we've been there done that (Moblin 1 on ubuntu) and learned the hard way, and moblin 2.x is its own upstream distro | 19:38 |
| arjan | and because of that we could do the things we wanted to do | 19:39 |
| arjan | jebba: I know both Fedora and Debian would like us to be their downstream, but it just does not work that way | 19:39 |
| arjan | been there done that | 19:39 |
| Votan | too limiting ? | 19:40 |
| Votan | or too time consuming to work with what u get instead of doing it all by urself? | 19:40 |
| jebba | arjan, ya i'm not saying it should be either way, i was just trying to feed signal to fedora-arm list ;) | 19:41 |
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| Jaffa | Woohoo, qgil's got an Intel equivalent. | 19:41 |
| arjan | Votan: both | 19:42 |
| arjan | Votan: it's a case of different objectives leading to different tradeoffs | 19:42 |
| arjan | tradeoffs we don't want to make on smaller devices | 19:42 |
| jebba | i started a meego thread on fedora-arm list if anyone wants to chime in: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/arm/2010-February/000459.html | 19:42 |
| arjan | hmm why? | 19:42 |
| arjan | what does meego have to do with fedora-arm ?? | 19:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, indeed? | 19:42 |
| jebba | arjan meego is bootstraping itself with fedora 12 arm | 19:43 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: http://fastwonderblog.com/ - Dawn Foster, "Introduction" thread on meego-community | 19:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, cool. | 19:43 |
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| jebba | arjan, well, per this link at least, that's what it says: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support | 19:44 |
| arjan | jebba: we start with their compiler binary since you need to start with SOME compiler | 19:45 |
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| arjan | that does not mean we have anything f12 left once our own compiler is built with their binary | 19:45 |
| jebba | ya, again, i'm not saying up or down to anything. You just asked what they have to do with each other. | 19:46 |
| arjan | basically nothing | 19:46 |
| arjan | we needed A compiler to bootstrap compiling | 19:46 |
| jebba | ya, except that it's bootstrapping from that. | 19:46 |
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| jebba | so that's what they have to do with each other ;) | 19:46 |
| arjan | we could have picked any other arm build just the same | 19:46 |
| jebba | uh huh. But F12 arm was chosen. | 19:46 |
| jebba | i just thought the fedora-arm folks would find it interesting. | 19:47 |
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| arjan | you make it sound like it's some big deal | 19:48 |
| Corsac | well, once the rpm stuff was chosen, it makes sense to bootstrap from a rpm distro, I guess | 19:48 |
| arjan | bootstrap means "get rid of the binaries you borrowed as soon as you can" | 19:48 |
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| arjan | so you're basically telling fedora "we're borrowing your binaries for one box, just to ditch them as fast as we can" :) | 19:48 |
| muep | well, the fedora ARM port is still relatively little used | 19:50 |
| kebax | so thats how meego will be an independent distro | 19:50 |
| arjan | and we're using their compiler to .. build our compiler once and then ditch it ? | 19:51 |
| muep | so I guess they may still find it rewarding that someone happens to use fedora-arm for something useful | 19:51 |
| jebba | arjan ok ok ok. I'm sorry i let them know. Sheez. | 19:51 |
| arjan | muep: hahahaha | 19:51 |
| arjan | jebba: it's just that it feels like you're rubbing in that we're not using them | 19:51 |
| jebba | rubbing it in how? wtf? | 19:51 |
| jebba | rubbing it in to them or you or meego or what? i'm totally lost here. I didn't think this would be controversial at all.... | 19:52 |
| jebba | "hey fedora folks, meego is bootstraping with you. here's links. ciao". http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/arm/2010-February/000459.html | 19:53 |
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| Myrtti | mailing list linebreak fail | 19:53 |
| jebba | i'm gonna hang out in #openbsd where it's a bit more friendly..... | 19:55 |
| arjan | jebba: don't sweat it too much | 19:55 |
| arjan | jebba: we've had to deal with a whole week of "omg you're ditching debian" "omg you're ditching fedora" last week | 19:56 |
| Myrtti | I'm happy I was so sick I didn't pay attention to IRC at all | 19:56 |
| arjan | relationships with other distros is a bit sensitive; it seems they would like to think of either moblin/maemo/meego as their "they should just use us" | 19:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | Myrtti, aw, but you missed all the fun. | 19:56 |
| Myrtti | GeneralAntilles: I had fun in the loo. | 19:56 |
| Myrtti | :-< | 19:56 |
| jebba | uh huh. FWIW i've done fedora (Red Hat, Inc.) packaging for a decade or so and learned debian packaging (better) for maemo, so i'm totally cool with whatever way it goes. | 19:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | Myrtti, :( | 19:57 |
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| arjan | jebba: my point is that things are a bit sensitive at the point; | 19:57 |
| CosmoHill | hey arjan | 19:57 |
| Myrtti | I was having a fever on Monday and I remember only bits and pieces | 19:57 |
| jebba | i guess so! | 19:57 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Fancy moving the stuff from the top of "Who's who" into one of the those "main page" summaries? | 19:58 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, "'main page' summaries"? | 19:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh, I get it. | 20:01 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Seriously? | 20:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | It wants me to confirm my email address for a 3rd time/ | 20:02 |
| andrewfblack | Hello | 20:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Where is bugs.meego.com. . . . | 20:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, not up for playing "Get the wiki SSO to play nice" at the moment, sorry. :P | 20:02 |
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| andrewfblack | GeneralAntilles: your not playing nice with wiki? | 20:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Reverse it. | 20:03 |
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| * Stskeeps reads the backlog | 20:04 | |
| * Corsac reads Stskeeps | 20:04 | |
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| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: +1 for already hanging out in here, good way to engage with the community | 20:08 |
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| CosmoHill | Stskeeps >> /var/logs/#meego | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | DawnFoster, might want to register with NickServ. | 20:08 |
| DawnFoster | stskeeps: Thanks! I've been lurking a bit & trying to learn what I can before I "officially" start on monday | 20:09 |
| CosmoHill | DawnFoster: welcome to the channel | 20:09 |
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| CosmoHill | is he shiny? (a meego dev) | 20:09 |
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| GeneralAntilles | DawnFoster, may be worth browsing the MeeGo-related stuff here: http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16 | 20:09 |
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| CosmoHill | there is also 8 days of rpm vs deb | 20:10 |
| CosmoHill | er i mean chatlogs | 20:10 |
| Stskeeps | CosmoHill: yes, I have tried very hard to forget those :P | 20:10 |
| Myrtti | DawnFoster: brilliant to see more of "us" around! | 20:10 |
| Myrtti | DawnFoster: welcome to the mad house | 20:10 |
| * GeneralAntilles cackles. | 20:10 | |
| * CosmoHill is learning who is shiney / meego dev | 20:10 | |
| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill, track the Who's Who wiki page. ;) | 20:12 |
| jebba | http://fastwonderblog.com/ fyi DawnFoster's blog | 20:12 |
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| Stskeeps | at least this time we have a list and affiliation with people.. i mean, it took me half a year before i knew who to poke and when i had to poke them | 20:12 |
| CosmoHill | i hang out on two projects | 20:12 |
| CosmoHill | one of them i see the devs all the time | 20:12 |
| CosmoHill | the other one they are mystical creatures seen once in a bluemoon | 20:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, hey, if just anybody can figure out who's who then we'll have rabble all over everything. ;) | 20:14 |
| auke | we just had a blue moon a few weeks back | 20:14 |
| Myrtti | X-D | 20:14 |
| CosmoHill | i think I'm been evaluated by two of them :/ | 20:16 |
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| lbt | jebba: hmm - everything you said looked fine to me :) | 20:18 |
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| lbt | I think there's a bit of tension around still... | 20:18 |
| jebba | thx. I took a redeye flight last night cross hemispheres and am way spacey, so i wasn't quite sure ;) | 20:18 |
| Stskeeps | at least it's sortof settled over at t.m.o by now | 20:19 |
| lbt | jebba: there are *massive* issues to resolve due to the "no upstream" stance though | 20:19 |
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| lbt | I'm waiting until we get a bit more visibility of code and repos | 20:19 |
| lbt | so we can start submitting bugs for missing packages/libraries | 20:20 |
| lbt | and understand how we deal with that | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | on the other hands | 20:20 |
| jebba | i hope it means that things track upstream extra fast, not extra slow in this case (e.g. when in doubt just track upstream....) | 20:20 |
| lbt | eg it may be interesting to 'upstream' things at the 'all perl' level though | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | engineers are traditionally lazy - naming might be similar to the distro they've been affected by | 20:20 |
| Corsac | “dpkg, libapt, apt-get, dpkg-buildpackage are missing” | 20:20 |
| * Corsac runs | 20:20 | |
| * lbt grins | 20:21 | |
| * CosmoHill giggles | 20:21 | |
| jebba | you can have apt-get on an .rpm based system install .rpms (e.g. not alien stuff, there's apt-get for RPM) | 20:21 |
| Stskeeps | alien is actually kinda cool | 20:21 |
| CosmoHill | jebba: you mean apt-rpm? | 20:22 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, i was shocked to find out it actually adjusted Depends: for me | 20:22 |
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| jebba | CosmoHill, ya apt-rpm (apt4rpm?). On Fedora 12, for example: `yum -y install apt && apt-get update && apt-get install foo` For years I happily used apt-get on fedora-based systems. | 20:30 |
| CosmoHill | hmm | 20:30 |
| Stskeeps | i actually think specs look simpler to work with, heh | 20:30 |
| jebba | Stskeeps: oh ya, i really prefer specs actually. Multiple binary sources much easier. I was *shocked* when I had to convert .pngs into .xpms just to add an icon to the package (part of that being due to maemo using legacy debian build tools like debhelper5) | 20:31 |
| CosmoHill | jebba: ooo | 20:32 |
| RST38h | [sticking his head from the hole] XPMs? Feora still uses XPMs? | 20:32 |
| CosmoHill | i like that you can easily make multiple packages from one spec file | 20:32 |
| jebba | RST38h: no, for .debs | 20:32 |
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| th0br0 | bbl | 20:33 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: to continue down the technical road, f12 arm is interesting cos it's armv5te | 20:34 |
| jebba | Like in foo.spec you can just add a line Source: foo-1.2.3.tar.gz for the main tarball. Then if you want to add something like a little icon for .desktop or somesuch, you just do Source1: foo.png and it drags that in so you can copy it where .desktop will see it. In debhelper5 (afaict), there was no way to include an extra .png in the .diff, since it was binary. (Disclaimer: i'm somewhat noob on building .deb) | 20:34 |
| arjan | lbt: btw we have tools that notify people when upstream made a new release | 20:34 |
| arjan | which is quite nice | 20:35 |
| arjan | (and we're working on the flow to make things easier to just upgrade to the new release) | 20:35 |
| Corsac | something like debian/watch and uscan? :) | 20:35 |
| Corsac | no wait | 20:35 |
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| lbt | arjan: I think the problem I see is that meego will have to duplicate all the work done elsewhere | 20:35 |
| lbt | and that seems suboptimal | 20:35 |
| RST38h | Not all, just part of it | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: well, naming is a big issue, since sonames are common | 20:36 |
| lbt | all the packaging/QA work | 20:36 |
| lbt | yep, like naming | 20:36 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group | 20:36 |
| lbt | I'm real interested in working with other distros to take advantage of the QA/integration done "out there" | 20:36 |
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| jebba | well, things don't have to start from absolute scratch though. I imagine lots will be seeded from fedora .specs (or maybe suse .specs??). The one drawback is that suse/fedora/mandrake .spec files use lots of different macros. It's not always that easy to just grab a mandrake .spec and build it for fedora, for example. | 20:37 |
| arjan | lbt: having worked for linux distros for... 8 years now I suppose.... I think you're overestimating that QA and integration part ;) | 20:37 |
| lbt | on now Stskeeps | 20:37 |
| lbt | arjan: heh | 20:37 |
| arjan | jebba: we have tools to autopackage basically "good behaving" upstream stuff | 20:37 |
| lbt | I'll be happy when I see CPAN on meego | 20:37 |
| jebba | arjan: will the macros be more fedoraish or mandrakeish or ??? | 20:37 |
| jebba | ya, but there are so many "bad behaving" upstreams... ;) | 20:38 |
| arjan | lbt: I am 100% in favor of having a good CPAN->meego tool flow, so that the actual packaging is a noop for that | 20:38 |
| auke | dito | 20:38 |
| lbt | OK - that is the kind of richness I want to have available to devs | 20:38 |
| arjan | lbt: I rather spend time on a tool that makes that easy rather than spending time on 5000 little perl CPANs each | 20:38 |
| lbt | and having statements that support that level of commitment is good | 20:38 |
| lbt | arjan: yes | 20:39 |
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| lbt | debian has a good one | 20:39 |
| jebba | e.g. "make %{?_smp_mflags}" on fedora versus "make -j{somefoo i dont remember" on suse, etc. | 20:39 |
| lbt | and I'm sure the logic can be analysed and re-used | 20:39 |
| arjan | (not diminishing the value of those 5000 litte CPANs... but I do diminish the value of packaging each by hand) | 20:39 |
| Corsac | yeah, there's the dh-make-perl or something | 20:39 |
| lbt | nod | 20:39 |
| arjan | jebba: if you end up caring on that level you're one level too deep in the general case ;-) | 20:39 |
| lbt | I also like the dh-* concept | 20:39 |
| lbt | and feel that, design wise, that would be worth looking very closely at | 20:40 |
| Corsac | and dh plugins are a nice addition | 20:40 |
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| jebba | arjan, well, basically mandrake/fedora/suse all have different macros that they use in the .specs. MeeGo is going to have to go with one of them or start a new set of macros. Probably easiest to be mostly compatible with one of them so you can drag in all their .specs just to hit the ground running. You can't take a mandrake .spec and have it "just work" in fedora. | 20:41 |
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| arjan | jebba: moblin has its own set | 20:41 |
| lbt | jebba: yes, that's another kind of decision I'd like to see | 20:41 |
| arjan | but in general, it's all very minimal | 20:41 |
| lbt | arjan: so we at least need some support to convert them | 20:41 |
| arjan | you don't notice such macros if you use the autopackaging tools btw | 20:42 |
| arjan | also, generally, once you use too many macros you're doing it wrong | 20:42 |
| jebba | arjan, uh, every fedora package uses macros. | 20:42 |
| jebba | and mandrake, and suse. | 20:42 |
| arjan | jebba: there is a basic set that you use, sure. | 20:42 |
| Corsac | not exactly sure reinventing packaging good practices is really that useful though | 20:42 |
| jebba | and they are incompatible. | 20:42 |
| arjan | jebba: the common ones tend to not be in general | 20:43 |
| arjan | with rpm 4.8 they standardized a lot of this stuff again | 20:43 |
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| jebba | except for, like, say "make"...as in my example above. | 20:43 |
| jebba | ok, good to hear it's getting standardized. I haven't packaged much for fedoraish for a year or so. | 20:43 |
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| RST38h | pkg_add! | 20:45 |
| * RST38h hides | 20:45 | |
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| jebba | Using lynx.spec as a random example. Fedora : "%configure --libdir=/etc ..." SUSE: "./configure". Fedora: "make %{?_smp_mflags}" SUSE: "make" (I've seen weirder things they do too, iirc). Fedora: "%makeinstall mandir=$RPM_BUILD_ROOT%{_mandir}/man1 libdir=$RPM_BUILD_ROOT/etc" SUSE: "make DESTDIR=$RPM_BUILD_ROOT install" Fedora (under %files): "%{_bindir}/lynx" SUSE: "/usr/bin/lynx" Fedora: "%config %{_sysconfd | 21:03 |
| jebba | and mandriva is different and PLD is different, etc. | 21:04 |
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| Stskeeps | jebba: could you add moblin too as an example? | 21:09 |
| Stskeeps | also, you got cut off at fedora | 21:09 |
| Stskeeps | just pondering which one is closest | 21:11 |
| jebba | Stskeeps: this is clearer: http://pastebin.ca/1807161 I'll see if i can find a moblin spec | 21:12 |
| Stskeeps | it's also about finding out what litterature traditionally points to | 21:13 |
| CosmoHill | if you can find a src.rpm i can unpack them on my mac | 21:13 |
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| jebba | ya, i'm grabbing bzip2.src.rpm nowp | 21:15 |
| CosmoHill | ah bzip2 | 21:16 |
| CosmoHill | that doesn't have a make install | 21:16 |
| CosmoHill | at least i don't think so | 21:16 |
| jebba | Stskeeps: bzip2 in moblin trunk ( http://repo.moblin.org/releases/trunk/repo/source/ ) is based on Fedora's spec. | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | got a diff? | 21:17 |
| CosmoHill | #specfile originally created for Fedora, modified for Moblin Linux | 21:17 |
| jebba | (in fact, at the top it even says "#specfile originally created for Fedora, modified for Moblin Linux") | 21:17 |
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| Stskeeps | right | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | if it's possible to find more similarities, it would be a good argument as having something to align towards | 21:18 |
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| Stskeeps | not marry, not compatible, but maybe src compat | 21:18 |
| * CosmoHill looks at the changelog | 21:18 | |
| CosmoHill | hmm, nothing there | 21:18 |
| CosmoHill | Stskeeps: if you want I'll download the fedora one and pastebin a diff | 21:19 |
| jebba | Stskeeps: the differences are quite minimal. Diff and the .specs here: http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/SPECS/ | 21:19 |
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| jebba | so, afaict, it's basically fedora base. But not that fedora has anything to do with meego, no no no ;) | 21:20 |
| Amby | hello everyone | 21:20 |
| CosmoHill | hey Amby | 21:20 |
| jebba | or fedora "seeded" would perhaps be more accurate. | 21:20 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: well, if you can show a certain % of packages have a minimal diff, it makes for good data | 21:20 |
| CosmoHill | looks like extra docs and libbz2.a are added | 21:21 |
| jebba | well, based on that, one would have to assume the macros they are using are very similar to fedora's. | 21:21 |
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| jebba | CosmoHill: actually other way around about docs. They dropped the docs for moblin (e.g. no dragging in a .pdf) | 21:21 |
| CosmoHill | ah yes | 21:21 |
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| CosmoHill | i thought you did it the other way around | 21:21 |
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| CosmoHill | fedora use there {?dist} thingy | 21:22 |
| Amby | any todo from the MeeGo community perspective? Thought I dedicate this night to MeeGo. | 21:24 |
| Stskeeps | Amby: have a good beer and relax? ;) | 21:25 |
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| Amby | Stskeeps: I can do that! :-D I bring popcorn and read the discussion about changelogs | 21:26 |
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| * CosmoHill wonders why his pc is making noises when reading over the lan | 21:27 | |
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| ali1234 | CosmoHill: sound card cross talk? | 21:29 |
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| CosmoHill | it's not coming from the speakers | 21:29 |
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| CosmoHill | it was doing it on one video but not another | 21:30 |
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| Cascade_ | New programming forum! http://www.hackersrus.info JOIN! | 21:31 |
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| Stskeeps | sigh | 21:31 |
| auke | don't bother | 21:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Spammers love us | 21:31 |
| * CosmoHill sighs too | 21:31 | |
| CosmoHill | that's one thing I'm not used to | 21:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | At least the damn bots are mostly done for. | 21:31 |
| CosmoHill | i hang out on one server that happens to have 7 of the IRCops i it | 21:32 |
| CosmoHill | in the channel that is | 21:32 |
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| ali1234 | the spam on freenode is getting worse :/ | 21:33 |
| CosmoHill | i'm mostly on aniverse | 21:33 |
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| Cascade_ | New programming forum http://www.hackersrus.info/index.php JOIN! | 21:38 |
| CosmoHill | burn in hell! | 21:38 |
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| CosmoHill | yay | 21:38 |
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| Corsac | ali1234: hmhm, it's currently building stuff | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | what is? mock? | 21:57 |
| Corsac | ali1234: but, btw, rebuilding everything sequentially isn't exactly what's needed | 21:57 |
| Corsac | yes | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: yeah i know, it has to be bootstrapped in the right order | 21:57 |
| Corsac | more or less | 21:57 |
| Corsac | well, there are two ways | 21:57 |
| Corsac | you can pick each package independantly and rebuild them, in order, using build-deps from moblin (which is mock is currently doing, it seems) | 21:58 |
| jebba | is this build running anywhere "publicly"? (like we can watch the build logs or whatnot) | 21:58 |
| Corsac | or you can do the bootstrap and use the stuff you built as build-deps | 21:58 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: not yet, i think | 21:58 |
| Corsac | but then you need something smarter than mock to feed it | 21:58 |
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| Corsac | jebba: it's running on my laptop atm | 21:58 |
| Corsac | but it's a dumb stuff | 21:58 |
| jebba | Corsac: with qemu-arm? | 21:58 |
| Corsac | and it's not really what we want | 21:58 |
| Corsac | jebba: no, I build for i386 atm | 21:59 |
| jebba | i was thinking of doing it on my n900 running fedora 12 arm, which is even dumber ;) | 21:59 |
| ali1234 | jebba: the goal is to recompile moblin for i386 (ie without SSSE3 requirement) | 21:59 |
| Corsac | I'm just starting to familiarise with mass rpmbuild | 21:59 |
| jebba | ah ya. Mock is nice :) | 21:59 |
| ali1234 | jebba: actually before that the goal is just to rebuild all moblin rpms | 21:59 |
| Corsac | I only used rpmbuild to build few packages here and there | 21:59 |
| jebba | strangely (to me) neither mock nor rpm-build are here: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/burgerspace/ | 22:00 |
| Corsac | jebba: I have a touchbook so I could do it on it too | 22:00 |
| jebba | whoops not there, here: http://repo.moblin.org/releases/trunk/repo/source/ | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: if you have a small guide on how to set up your own OBS, it could be a benefit in this beginning | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | as people want to do experiments but noone has moblin imported atm | 22:00 |
| * CosmoHill reads about QT | 22:01 | |
| leinir | Corsac: Please do :) i should be very happy to test out any image you come up with too ;) | 22:01 |
| leinir | CosmoHill: Why are you reading about QuickTime?! ;) | 22:01 |
| CosmoHill | :o | 22:01 |
| Corsac | I'd need to find an external drive though | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: and i'm not sure build.meego is initially opened to mortals (which i am not happy about either) | 22:01 |
| CosmoHill | Corsac: have a look at Lacie | 22:01 |
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| leinir | CosmoHill: [23/2-2010 21:00:29] <qtassistant> leinir: [Qt] QT is Apple's QuickTime. You probably mean Qt, the toolkit by Qt Software/Nokia. | 22:01 |
| ali1234 | jebba: F12 on N900: is that in a chroot or a native install? | 22:01 |
| jebba | native install | 22:02 |
| jebba | ali1234: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Fedora | 22:02 |
| ali1234 | thanks | 22:02 |
| penguinbait | new shot of meego in action http://penguinbait.com/n900.jpg | 22:02 |
| ali1234 | was about to ask :) | 22:02 |
| penguinbait | heh | 22:02 |
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| jebba | Stskeeps: i'm not up to speed enough on OBS, but if/when I get there i'll write something up if someone doesnt beat me to it. | 22:02 |
| jebba | though it seems OBS is like flying an F15 to get groceries if you just want to build a package or two | 22:03 |
| leinir | penguinbait: awesomesauce! :) Now you just need to swap kicker for plasma-mobile and you have a winner ;D | 22:03 |
| lcuk | jebba, at the speed you filled up the maemo wiki, even if someone had a head start, im sure you will catch up :D | 22:03 |
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| lcuk | ps, does your keyboard actually start smoking as you type? | 22:03 |
| jebba | heh. lcuk i did have smoke come out of an apple keyboard once... A big pooof! and goodbye. (running YDL a bit too hard, i guess) | 22:04 |
| jebba | apple keyboard on TiBook | 22:04 |
| lcuk | yikes | 22:04 |
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| jebba | i get thinkpads just for the keyboard .... | 22:04 |
| jebba | though they aint what they used to be... | 22:05 |
| ali1234 | hmm... rd mode to disable watchdog again | 22:06 |
| jebba | ali1234: in maemo? | 22:06 |
| ali1234 | for anything other than maemo on n900 | 22:07 |
| ali1234 | mer needs it to apparently | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | no, we solved that one | 22:07 |
| ali1234 | by a kernel patch? | 22:07 |
| jebba | no | 22:07 |
| ali1234 | or porting the daemon? | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | dsme | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | (yes, i'm ashamed of it) | 22:07 |
| jebba | Stskeeps: btw, it was "solved" for f12/arm too (not by me). I'll put up how it was done. | 22:08 |
| jebba | 1 sec | 22:08 |
| Stskeeps | jebba: i should really petition someone for a DSME-less BME | 22:08 |
| CosmoHill | is there much of a learning curve from C++ to Qt | 22:08 |
| CosmoHill | ? | 22:08 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: Qt is easier than C++ | 22:08 |
| CosmoHill | awesome | 22:08 |
| CosmoHill | cos i was confused in my C++ lecture / lesson today | 22:09 |
| ali1234 | C++ is extremely confusing | 22:09 |
| ali1234 | having said that, you have to have fought C++ to appreciate why sig/slot is so good | 22:09 |
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| jebba | http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/fedora/12/wd/ ali1234 Stskeeps | 22:10 |
| ali1234 | a userspace daemon... | 22:10 |
| leinir | ali1234: Not really... To know why it's so good, you just have to be familiar with OOP :) | 22:11 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: ta | 22:11 |
| leinir | But damn, is it ever possible to do just about everything with Qt... i've just spent the day finding out that Qt does yet another thing that c++ can't do ;) (in short: QMetaEnum) | 22:12 |
| Corsac | INFO: Done(a2ps-4.14-6.1.moblin2.src.rpm) Config(moblin) 21 minutes 51 seconds | 22:12 |
| Corsac | I'm not exactly done… | 22:13 |
| jebba | youch. 21 min for a2ps? | 22:13 |
| Corsac | yeah | 22:13 |
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| Corsac | I don't even know how that's possible | 22:14 |
| ali1234 | Corsac: it downloads a bunch of rpms and builds a chroot | 22:14 |
| ali1234 | the first time takes a while | 22:15 |
| ali1234 | after that they are cached | 22:15 |
| Corsac | hmhm, maybe | 22:15 |
| Corsac | it's still building abiword, though it's expected to be much longer :) | 22:16 |
| ali1234 | anyway, a bunch of rpms will fail with mock | 22:16 |
| ali1234 | so this is a dead end unless you want to fix them all | 22:16 |
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| sivang | how do I create a wiki account? | 22:18 |
| Corsac | click on the “register” link? | 22:18 |
| sivang | the register link seems elusive and apparently my single sign on didn't work | 22:18 |
| sivang | although I can access all the rest of the content | 22:18 |
| jebba | sivang: register and log in thru the main page, not the wiki. Seems broken at the moment if you try to do it thru the wiki. But logging in via main page will have you logged into the wiki too., | 22:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, I've had it working twice | 22:20 |
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| GeneralAntilles | sivang, had to screw with it to get it to resend the activation email both times | 22:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, stopped working again so I gave up. | 22:20 |
| sivang | a I see | 22:21 |
| sivang | why don't we just use plone? </runs-away> | 22:21 |
| sivang | quim is still waiting for my explenation "why moinmoin" | 22:21 |
| sivang | but that's exactly the reasons | 22:21 |
| jebba | twiki! | 22:21 |
| sivang | Or Twiki for that matter! | 22:22 |
| sivang | :-) | 22:22 |
| jebba | we should all have shell accounts on a box and edit textfiles, really. | 22:22 |
| jebba | i'm glad mediawiki is a settled question already. ;) | 22:22 |
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| GeneralAntilles | jebba, erm, because it integrates into Drupal SSO better? | 22:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/jebba/sivang/ | 22:23 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles meant: sivang, erm, because it integrates into Drupal SSO better? | 22:23 |
| sivang | jebba: I don't know how to answer Quim, I have valid arguments but :-) | 22:23 |
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| sivang | GeneralAntilles: hmm, Drupal... | 22:23 |
| * sivang used to work for Zend Technologies | 22:23 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Which I hope we can still change, actually. | 22:24 |
| sivang | I don't quite like the PHP web "apps" | 22:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, don't expect any useful discussion unless you're willing to throw some real arguments behind it. | 22:24 |
| * GeneralAntilles is in favor of using Midgard. | 22:24 | |
| sivang | True | 22:24 |
| * jebba is in favor of static html | 22:25 | |
| * sp3000 is in favor of arguments | 22:25 | |
| mikhas | sivang, then please explain me this facebook craziness regarding their code re-compilation from php to c++ | 22:25 |
| sp3000 | also, violence | 22:25 |
| jebba | we should have a static site where people can do git checkins. Now that woudl be cool ;) | 22:25 |
| * GeneralAntilles argues that sp3000 sucks. | 22:26 | |
| * GeneralAntilles throws rocks. | 22:26 | |
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| * sp3000 throws chairs | 22:26 | |
| bef0rd | ballmer >:o | 22:26 |
| mikhas | (surely they - fb - could have just licensed zend technologie, for similar performance gains?) | 22:26 |
| mikhas | http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?story=358&blog=1 | 22:27 |
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| sivang | mikhas: facebook is crazy | 22:31 |
| sivang | mikhas: it is not PHP's fault | 22:31 |
| sivang | mikhas: erlang seems to not help them as well, they need to stop being a monopoly and outsource some of their cluster :) | 22:32 |
| CosmoHill | i hear facebook sucks so much it could challange dyson | 22:32 |
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| mikhas | good | 22:32 |
| CosmoHill | facebook chat* | 22:32 |
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| sivang | CosmoHill: http://sivang.blogspot.com/2009/08/facebook-chat-worst-chat-service-in.html | 22:34 |
| CosmoHill | :3 | 22:34 |
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| sivang | mikhas: but they are probably not happy with the optimizer's performance and want something else now | 22:34 |
| jebba | they are going XMPP now, iirc | 22:34 |
| sivang | jebba: they are saying this for *ages* now | 22:34 |
| sivang | and I mean, ages | 22:34 |
| sivang | mikhas: hmm, interesting. | 22:35 |
| thiago_home | I think they have already | 22:35 |
| sivang | thiago_home: have you sniffed it to make sure ? | 22:35 |
| sivang | hahah "simple to debug" | 22:35 |
| sivang | php ;) | 22:35 |
| CosmoHill | if i were to use facebook chat I'd go via adium or pidgin | 22:36 |
| jebba | sivang: none of the things in that moinmoin link appear to be much of an advantage..... | 22:36 |
| sivang | jebba: automatic CamelCase is a rock | 22:36 |
| jebba | whatever | 22:36 |
| sivang | jebba: e.g. creating links from CamelCase | 22:36 |
| jebba | that's a very small gain | 22:36 |
| sivang | jebba: which for me means I can think up while I write, and then click the camel cased links and write up a drill down | 22:37 |
| sivang | jebba: this was monumental for me to start up the doc team at Ubuntu | 22:37 |
| mikhas | I lik the CamelCase links | 22:37 |
| sivang | jebba: "Design as you type" | 22:37 |
| mikhas | *like | 22:37 |
| mikhas | better than mediawiki, much better | 22:37 |
| sivang | in my taste, at least. | 22:37 |
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| sivang | but let's see what people think | 22:37 |
| jebba | instead of just [[CamelCase]]... But think of how many more people already know mediawiki syntax. I groan when I have to learn some new syntax just to edit somoene's wiki. Very small upside... | 22:38 |
| mikhas | mediawiki syntax can be quickly forgotten | 22:38 |
| sivang | jebba: not much to know in MoinMoin (read: WYSIWYG) | 22:38 |
| mikhas | because it's so rubbish | 22:38 |
| jebba | sivang: well, that one link you sent to the list sure as hell isn't going to convince meego to switch over, sorry to say. | 22:38 |
| * CosmoHill isn't on facebook | 22:38 | |
| mikhas | MoinMoin has docbook export | 22:39 |
| jebba | well, looking at that comparison page ( http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinVsMediaWiki ) they aren't *that* different, just different enough. | 22:39 |
| mikhas | that should do it | 22:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | We've got a whole team of people who know and use MediaWiki | 22:39 |
| sivang | jebba: probably not, which is a shame, PHP tools are nice, but they're lack of systemic thinking starts to bite quite early. | 22:39 |
| jebba | well, i've used a site or two which seems to show that mediawiki has been adequate..... | 22:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | We've also got a whole range of doc tools for Nokia that target MediaWiki. | 22:39 |
| sivang | jebba: it's good, but MoinMoin is better. | 22:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | So unless you have some really compelling reasons why MoinMoin would be better. . . . | 22:39 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: yeah, I know from the thread. | 22:40 |
| mikhas | "I've used two computers w/ CDE which seems to show to me that CDE has been adequate" | 22:40 |
| jebba | sivang: marginally better, if that. It's gotta be a *lot* better.... | 22:40 |
| mikhas | =D | 22:40 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: I once did a presentation of taking a user, letting him work on MOin and Mediawiki and see what he says | 22:40 |
| lbt | MoinMoin is written in python and not php. Case closed | 22:40 |
| mikhas | lbt, word | 22:40 |
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| jebba | heh | 22:40 |
| sivang | lbt: ? | 22:40 |
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| sivang | GeneralAntilles: think "lower barrier for entry" | 22:41 |
| jebba | exactly, and for the users, that's mediawiki. | 22:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, yeah, the lower barrier is all of the people who already dabble in wikipedia. :) | 22:41 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: so you're saying the same folks who do wikipedia will come and write docs for MeeGO ? | 22:41 |
| mikhas | http://moinmo.in/DocBook | 22:41 |
| jebba | sivang: uh, ya. | 22:41 |
| mikhas | a very compelling argument | 22:41 |
| mikhas | wiki contents could come from different kind of sources | 22:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, I'm saying that there are lots of people in communities with experience in MediaWiki. | 22:42 |
| sivang | mikhas: ah forgot, so in Ubuntu some of the docs were generated right off the wiki | 22:42 |
| sivang | so we could have the phone brochoures or paper intro auto generated from the wiki | 22:42 |
| jebba | docbook would be nice. I briefly considered doing a mediawiki to latex converter which would rule, but it would be sooooo boring to write. | 22:42 |
| sivang | oh, and ACLs | 22:42 |
| sivang | jebba: don't reinvent, reuse! | 22:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | jebba, comparison pages on the official website are always oh so unbiased. ;) | 22:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, yeah, Nokia already has tooling to do that. :) | 22:43 |
| lbt | mediawiki is better known. The poor sad muppets on tmo are learning mw syntax. I say switch to MoinMoin to start a flame war... | 22:43 |
| jebba | what surprised me is the comparision basically didn't show *too* much differences at all. | 22:43 |
| sivang | lbt: hehe, okay I back off. | 22:43 |
| sivang | what is TMO ? | 22:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | jebba, and most of the comparison points seem totally irrelevant to me. | 22:43 |
| jebba | talk.maemo.org | 22:43 |
| jebba | GeneralAntilles: agreed. ... | 22:43 |
| lbt | tmo is where most of the non-tech maemo community hang out | 22:44 |
| sivang | and it is MW syntax powered? | 22:44 |
| lbt | and there are a lot of them | 22:44 |
| jebba | one drawback to mediawiki is it doesnt go over to print very nicely. | 22:44 |
| sivang | jebba: but nokia has tooling for that! | 22:44 |
| sivang | :) | 22:44 |
| lbt | the wiki.maemo.org is fairly huge | 22:44 |
| jebba | i hope so | 22:44 |
| sivang | http://www.osnews.com/thread?374748 | 22:45 |
| sivang | ^^^^ | 22:46 |
| sivang | the syntax could make me setup a wiki on my servers and link to it from MW | 22:46 |
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| sivang | I have to admit I never managed with MW syntax | 22:46 |
| sivang | but that's just me. | 22:46 |
| sivang | If everybody's happy with it, then I back off :-) | 22:47 |
| lbt | sivang: don't get me wrong. I prefer MM. But for meego the encumbent is probably better | 22:47 |
| lbt | s/enc/inc/ | 22:47 |
| infobot | lbt meant: sivang: don't get me wrong. I prefer MM. But for meego the incumbent is probably better | 22:47 |
| sivang | even when working in Zend, I sweared alot at MW when trying to write specs for the weekly QA meeting | 22:47 |
| sivang | and Zeev and Andi used to hear that :-) | 22:47 |
| sivang | (the rooms were close) | 22:47 |
| sivang | not to mention embedding pics and drawings | 22:49 |
| sivang | but hey, if it works better for the new user of MeeGO , then I'm sold. | 22:49 |
| Amby | What do you think will be the major steps for MeeGo? Millions of devices or signed-up users, vendors? | 22:50 |
| sivang | I think there're gonna be 3-4 major devices. | 22:51 |
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| sivang | hopefully the user community will get larger and the early adopters as well. I am tried of hearing "iPhone's OS is better" | 22:51 |
| thiago_home | iPhone's OS isn't better | 22:52 |
| thiago_home | it just has more users | 22:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | It IS more polished. | 22:52 |
| sivang | right | 22:52 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: +++ | 22:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Apple knows how ship a cohesive and polished product | 22:53 |
| Amby | thiago_home: sivang: it will be always better - in certain conditions | 22:53 |
| sivang | that's my big issue | 22:53 |
| sivang | Amby: not if I can help it. | 22:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nokia doesn't care enough to have non-embarrassing string sets. | 22:53 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: not talkiung about the strings sets. | 22:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, it's about the whole production. :) | 22:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Strings are a part of that | 22:53 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: true :) still, there are more pressing issue | 22:53 |
| sivang | in usability | 22:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | and a good example of something Nokia seems entirely incapable of getting right. | 22:53 |
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| sivang | in stability | 22:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | You don't see Apple shipping typos. | 22:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Period. | 22:54 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: you have to keep in mind the size of the challange | 22:54 |
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| sivang | GeneralAntilles: I haven't found typos though. | 22:54 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: bug# ? | 22:54 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I think that says a lot about the mentality of a company. | 22:54 |
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| GeneralAntilles | sivang, I've filed dozens. | 22:54 |
| mikhas | The iPhone also seems to be an enabler (or was) - apple's marketing is so good that no one is scared of actually *using* it. so people w/o prior inet experience learnt using it via the iPhone. | 22:54 |
| Amby | GeneralAntilles: Nokia does leave typos in their major PRs even. | 22:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | They refuse to fix them, too. | 22:54 |
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| Amby | I would be happy, if Nokia could at least get rid of the obvious mistakes. (Not expecting anytime soon) | 22:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, http://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&product=Translations&product=User+guide+%26+Help+content | 22:56 |
| sivang | mikhas: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9089 | 22:56 |
| povbot | Bug 9089: Upgrading Maemo itself (nokia official recommended upgrade) failed with "no enough space" on target device. | 22:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, the best example was "You loose!" in one of the old games. | 22:56 |
| sivang | mikhas: the response is what puts us back behind iPhone OS | 22:56 |
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| sivang | GeneralAntilles: hehe | 22:56 |
| sivang | mikhas: (the response to the bug report, that is) | 22:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Their documentation is worse yet. | 22:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | I wish there were another company that delivered a product like Apple delivers products. | 22:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Unfortunately nobody else seems to care enough. | 22:57 |
| red | I wish there were another company with as polished OS as Apples iPhone :P | 22:58 |
| sivang | you seriously think they don't care? | 22:58 |
| red | with the openness of nokia ;) | 22:58 |
| sivang | red: we need to make this happen. | 22:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, is it incompetence instead? | 22:58 |
| red | would if I could ;) | 22:58 |
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| sivang | GeneralAntilles: no. | 22:58 |
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| GeneralAntilles | At least with Nokia I've interacted with them enough to know that there definitely are people there who don't care. | 22:58 |
| red | im wondering if it would be possible to lower the resolution of N900 for increased battery life / faster graphics | 22:59 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: my experience is different altogether, interesting. | 22:59 |
| red | or if it gets all screwed up like LCDs that are on non-native resolution | 22:59 |
| Amby | sivang: I think there are simply too many voices in Nokia. Things (like leadership and direction) gets lost in between | 22:59 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: nokia was a device company and still is, Apple always concentrated ont he software. | 22:59 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: and symbian is top-notch in my taste, as it had all the years to mature. | 23:00 |
| Amby | Nokia does not have any target on "perfection". | 23:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, working with Maemo has been a long train of frustration. | 23:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Symbian is garbage | 23:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | I've never enjoyed using a Symbian device. | 23:01 |
| bfree | openmoko hardware is too primitive :-p | 23:01 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: ? that's odd, tried the N97 Mini ? | 23:01 |
| * GeneralAntilles finds this rather hilarious. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/19/symbian_compile/ | 23:01 | |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: it's like Maemo , but works :-) | 23:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, pfffft | 23:01 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: and no coredumps | 23:01 |
| sivang | ;) | 23:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Symbian isn't even vaguely like Maemo | 23:01 |
| sivang | form the user perspective | 23:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | S60v5 is awful | 23:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, no. | 23:02 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: What do you not like about it? | 23:02 |
| Amby | sivang: Symbian does not work :) I'm not getting close to that before v4 | 23:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't like the bastardization of the keypad UI with a touch Ui | 23:02 |
| sivang | in a test we tried people got along with Symbian much quicker and found it less confusing then Maemo | 23:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't like what a pain in the ass the system tends to be | 23:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't like anything about it, really. | 23:02 |
| sivang | :) | 23:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, because it's more similar to the types of phones people generally use | 23:03 |
| * GeneralAntilles is always suspect of usability tests like that | 23:03 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Besides which they don't really tell you anything useful | 23:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | vi is confusing to everybody the first few times they use it | 23:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | WordPad tends not to be | 23:03 |
| thiago_home | less was confusing to me the first time | 23:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which is the more useful tool? | 23:03 |
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| thiago_home | I flipped to a different terminal and killed it | 23:04 |
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| thiago_home | I didn't know how to exit it | 23:04 |
| Suurorca | Did anyone read Vanjoki's statement about how they should never have tried making the N97 with current symbian version and should have waited for symbian3? :) | 23:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, I've spent so many hours trying to get my 5800 to update with each release. | 23:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, damn thing is useless. | 23:04 |
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| GeneralAntilles | sivang, N900 is a worlds better device. | 23:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | That isn't running an OS that was better left in the 90s. | 23:05 |
| th0br0 | Suurorca: rather symb^4 | 23:05 |
| th0br0 | and hello everyone | 23:05 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: I know it's better, but still in .IL where people were always Nokia customers, symbian is more customary and known. | 23:06 |
| thiago_home | I couldn't update an N97 | 23:06 |
| thiago_home | my N900, I just reflash it | 23:06 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: or mostly Nokia customers. | 23:06 |
| sivang | updates worked well for me on the 97 Mini | 23:07 |
| Suurorca | GeneralAntilles: Yes well... If you want to think it like that, isn't linux a lot older than original symbian, and it's unix heritage older still? | 23:07 |
| sivang | Will it be possible to test Symbian 3 on the N97 Mini ? | 23:07 |
| sivang | e.g. to reflash with it? | 23:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Suurorca, yeah, but it isn't stuck in the previous decade. | 23:07 |
| Suurorca | highly unlikely, I'd say | 23:07 |
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| sivang | what I'm trying to say that we have LOTS of work ahead of us to make the tablets not a hacker's only toy. | 23:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | N900 is already halfway there. | 23:08 |
| sivang | Symbian has jumped over this hoop years before. | 23:08 |
| sivang | well, come to think of it, it was never a community effort until now :) | 23:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | sivang, yeah, problem is it's now lying lame on the sidelines. | 23:08 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: true, and that's sad. | 23:09 |
| * GeneralAntilles wont shed any tears. | 23:09 | |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: I don't really believe Nokia are going to let it bit-rot | 23:09 |
| sivang | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/15/meego_nokia_intel/ | 23:09 |
| sivang | android attack?! | 23:09 |
| sivang | :) | 23:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yes, but only because they have dinosaurs in charge of the company. | 23:09 |
| mikhas | dinosaurs that know where the money (still) is? =p | 23:10 |
| sivang | mikhas: ++ | 23:10 |
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| GeneralAntilles | mikhas, money's in S40. | 23:10 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: oh ? | 23:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | mikhas, S60's slipped too far away from the top end. | 23:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | People are abandoning that ship in droves. | 23:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Android, iPhone OS, webOS, etc. | 23:11 |
| mikhas | haha, you said webOS | 23:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | mikhas, CDMA is big in the US. | 23:11 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: I have to tell you that Dinasours produce one of the best hardware line I've know and loved for years, and the N900 is no exception in durability and quality. | 23:12 |
| sivang | GeneralAntilles: "those dinasours" | 23:12 |
| sivang | :) | 23:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Dinosaurs don't produce anything. | 23:12 |
| sivang | Oil ? ;) | 23:12 |
| tripzero | heh | 23:13 |
| sivang | I just wished they didn't use IntelGMA on the netbooks. | 23:13 |
| tripzero | GMA500? | 23:13 |
| sivang | Makes it harder for me to run my favorite linux without tinting with the prop. driver. | 23:13 |
| sivang | tripzero: yep | 23:13 |
| tripzero | cuz GMA945 is okay | 23:13 |
| arjan | gma950 is sane (945 family) | 23:13 |
| sivang | I Know | 23:13 |
| sivang | let me find the link | 23:13 |
| * sivang googles | 23:13 | |
| GeneralAntilles | and the oil/fossil link is less certain than you'd think these days. ;) | 23:13 |
| sivang | hehe | 23:14 |
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| Amby | I've put up a proposal for MeeGo milestones, if anyone is interested in improving it: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Milestones | 23:14 |
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| simula_ | amby, isn't the release date 2nd half of 2010? | 23:15 |
| arjan | simula: no it's more like april/may ish | 23:16 |
| Amby | simula_: exactly y purpose with this wiki doc :) | 23:16 |
| Stskeeps | Amby: initial reaction would be that something like this exists but not published | 23:16 |
| arjan | Amby: your schedule does not seem to match what meego has been executing to | 23:16 |
| Amby | but 2H10 is the first expected devices, right? | 23:16 |
| simula_ | oh wow, that's impressive... thanks for the correction arjan :) | 23:16 |
| arjan | Amby: there's a release well before you can have devices | 23:16 |
| sivang | Amby: I shallt ry to fix my login first (MoinMoin single sign on is superb) and comment over :) | 23:17 |
| tripzero | oo, i know the day it'll sell 10million | 23:17 |
| tripzero | i have it on my schedule | 23:17 |
| Amby | arjan: so, can you help me correct some? | 23:17 |
| arjan | this needs to come from the steering group | 23:17 |
| sivang | Amby: what's 2H10 ? | 23:18 |
| Amby | 2nd half 2010 | 23:18 |
| tripzero | lol | 23:18 |
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| sivang | I think this is it, not sure if that's the GMA500 thingo that I played with at Developer Day 2009 TLV | 23:18 |
| sivang | http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/08/24/nokia-booklet-3g-mini-laptop-unveiled/ | 23:18 |
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| niqt | someone ha installed meego on n900? | 23:21 |
| sivang | Amby: have you taken QA cycles in account ? | 23:21 |
| slaine_ | evening all | 23:21 |
| thiago_home | niqt: there's no ARM meego yet | 23:22 |
| CosmoHill | n900 looks nice | 23:22 |
| sivang | CosmoHill: it is da thang! | 23:22 |
| niqt | :( | 23:22 |
| sivang | :) | 23:22 |
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| CosmoHill | however | 23:22 |
| sivang | thiago_home: is there a scratchbox for it already ? | 23:22 |
| CosmoHill | n900 = £470 | 23:22 |
| CosmoHill | my car = £500 | 23:22 |
| Amby | sivang: I haven't taken anything into account, just drafted some thoughts. | 23:22 |
| thiago_home | sivang: not yet | 23:22 |
| sivang | Amby: okay, am I free to comment to the doc ? I won't touch it inline | 23:22 |
| sivang | Amby: may I ask what's your function in MeeGo/Intel/Nokia ? | 23:23 |
| Amby | sivang: touch it, I don't mind. MeeGo community member wannabe :) | 23:23 |
| sivang | Amby: okay | 23:23 |
| mikhas | CosmoHill, you drive an expensive car! | 23:23 |
| niqt | I still can not prove a image on the pc :( | 23:23 |
| Amby | http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who | 23:24 |
| CosmoHill | one thing i really hate about netbooks, they are sold with contracts for wireless internet | 23:24 |
| CosmoHill | so they do they not use netboooks with internal sim card holders | 23:24 |
| RST38h | Are they? | 23:25 |
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| sivang | CosmoHill: not here | 23:25 |
| CosmoHill | in the UK they all come with dongles | 23:25 |
| sivang | CosmoHill: you are free here since the market for GSM netbook is not existant yet :) | 23:25 |
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| CosmoHill | just what i want with a small computer I'd throw about,s omething to snap off | 23:26 |
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| VLJ | hi | 23:28 |
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| CosmoHill | salut | 23:28 |
| sivang | hmm | 23:28 |
| sivang | can't edit | 23:28 |
| sivang | I've logged form the main apge | 23:28 |
| sivang | from the main page | 23:28 |
| sivang | and still | 23:28 |
| sivang | no go | 23:28 |
| sivang | ? | 23:28 |
| sivang | what shoudl I do ? | 23:28 |
| Myrtti | check your keyboard for sticky stuff under your enter key? | 23:29 |
| Myrtti | :-> | 23:29 |
| sivang | Myrtti: that was low dude :) | 23:29 |
| Myrtti | who? | 23:29 |
| sivang | ah nice I've secured my real name as the nick :) | 23:30 |
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| RST38h | Moo, Myrtti, and good night | 23:31 |
| Myrtti | RST38h: nitenite dearie *smooch* | 23:31 |
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| GeneralAntilles | We were doing so well on the splits, too. | 23:32 |
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| CosmoHill | hehe | 23:32 |
| Myrtti | GeneralAntilles: you should see how well my irssi is handling the situation on #ubuntu | 23:33 |
| Myrtti | hint: it's not | 23:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Myrtti, I know how that goes. | 23:33 |
| Myrtti | could be worse though | 23:33 |
| Myrtti | I remember back in 2001 or so when I still used mIRC. | 23:33 |
| Myrtti | *shudder* | 23:34 |
| sivang | oh my god! | 23:34 |
| mikeleib | ERC FTW | 23:34 |
| sivang | Myrtti: some things are better left unsaid :) | 23:34 |
| sivang | I have never used mIRC | 23:34 |
| bfree | am I right there are no arm boards with Free 3d drivers? what about 2d/video? | 23:34 |
| Myrtti | good for you. I barely knew Linux/open source existed then | 23:35 |
| sivang | Myrtti: ah granted, where are you from? | 23:35 |
| Scelt | Winland | 23:35 |
| Amarant | =) | 23:35 |
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| sivang | Scelt: there exists such a place? | 23:36 |
| Scelt | ye, the official name is Finland | 23:36 |
| slaine_ | CosmoHill: my netbook doesn't have a sim slot, you can buy direct from the manufactuter | 23:37 |
| CosmoHill | i mean netbooks that come with 3G contracts | 23:37 |
| Suurorca | this channel need soon a .fi spin-off ;p | 23:37 |
| Myrtti | since when has it *not* been that? | 23:38 |
| Suurorca | since the second some one uttered the first word in english here. | 23:38 |
| Myrtti | the amount of IRCers from Finland has always been high | 23:38 |
| Scelt | sure, we invented the whole IRC | 23:39 |
| sivang | Suurorca: due to the caltnesses of .fi ? :) | 23:39 |
| thiago_home | the IRC inventor works for Nokia | 23:39 |
| ShadowJK | bfree, I'm under the impression that the situation with DSS on beagleboard is pretty good | 23:39 |
| CosmoHill | that nokia looks nice | 23:39 |
| sivang | thiago_home: he does? cool | 23:39 |
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| ShadowJK | CosmoHill, amusingly that nokia netbook can't run moblin sanely, I believe it's gma500 :) | 23:40 |
| sivang | Myrtti: so php3 is from 1997, "made in israel" :-) http://www.php.net/manual/en/history.php.php | 23:40 |
| CosmoHill | meh | 23:40 |
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| ShadowJK | yep, Poulsbo | 23:42 |
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| CosmoHill | I've never actually bought a computer | 23:42 |
| CosmoHill | I've been given them | 23:42 |
| myrtti | using secure connection with sasl login now ♥ | 23:43 |
| slaine_ | Nooooo, don't mention the gma500 | 23:44 |
| sivang | myrtti: :) | 23:44 |
| ShadowJK | slaine_, right from forum.nokia.com: "Windows®. Life without Walls™. Nokia recommends Windows 7." ;-) | 23:45 |
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| sivang | so was Finaland like a Microsoft shop back then | 23:45 |
| sivang | ? | 23:45 |
| sivang | Myrtti: ^^^ | 23:45 |
| sivang | *Finland | 23:45 |
| * slaine_ keels over | 23:45 | |
| Myrtti | sivang: I knew of linux, but hadn't really looked into it at that time. I was in tender age of 21, learning to use ssh (also a Finnish invention!), studying and getting drunk. | 23:46 |
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| crysaz | that choice of W7 for Booklet was a bit surprise for me | 23:47 |
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| crysaz | when i first heard from the device, i assumed some higly modified linux bundle | 23:48 |
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| sivang | W7 on a booklet... | 23:48 |
| ShadowJK | You know, it's basically a netbook so that operators who are lazy don't need to start dealing with yet another manufacturer (Asus, Acer?) for the bundled contract+sim+netbook deals | 23:48 |
| sivang | god forbid | 23:48 |
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| sivang | slaine_: cool dude! | 23:48 |
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| slaine_ | ? | 23:49 |
| sivang | slaine_: (re: ML) | 23:49 |
| slaine_ | Oh, qt creator etc. | 23:49 |
| slaine_ | thanks | 23:49 |
| Myrtti | oh, and watching Babylon 5. And discussing overclocking. that was my thang then. | 23:49 |
| sivang | slaine_: but why is it a problem to rebuild for meego ? | 23:49 |
| Myrtti | and designing webpages. | 23:49 |
| sivang | Myrtti: ah, I see | 23:49 |
| slaine_ | sivang: how do you mean ? | 23:49 |
| sivang | Myrtti: I had my first hosting startup based on RedHat's that time. | 23:49 |
| * ShadowJK remembers using "Aso" to discuss Babylon 5 on mbnet's purkki BBS | 23:50 | |
| sivang | slaine_: You said that the creator is not available from the MeeGO repos | 23:50 |
| slaine_ | No, I said the Moblin repos | 23:50 |
| sivang | slaine_: oh. | 23:50 |
| sivang | slaine_: I'm getting tired. | 23:50 |
| sivang | :) | 23:50 |
| slaine_ | MeeGo will have it, when it's released | 23:50 |
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| sivang | is repositories open to use part of the milestones? | 23:51 |
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| thiago_home | moblin repos are open already | 23:52 |
| thiago_home | Qt repos too | 23:52 |
| Myrtti | ok, I lied. I had installed RedHat for the first time by then, but I didn't really know how to use it. | 23:52 |
| slaine_ | MeeGo repo's, not so much | 23:52 |
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| thiago_home | repos of what? | 23:53 |
| slaine_ | Myrtti: Ah, Babylong 5, the scifi show that changed them all | 23:53 |
| * thiago_home looks at his boxed set of all Babylon 5 DVDs | 23:53 | |
| slaine_ | lol, Babylong, d'oh. I'm tired too | 23:53 |
| Suurorca | ah yes, the legendary dropping ceilings | 23:53 |
| slaine_ | ali1234: how's your mock build going ? | 23:53 |
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| tripzero | as opposed to Babyshort | 23:54 |
| ali1234 | slaine_: gave up on it :/ | 23:54 |
| slaine_ | gah | 23:54 |
| sivang | slaine_: :) | 23:54 |
| ali1234 | got distracted by real work | 23:54 |
| slaine_ | yeah, that happens | 23:54 |
| slaine_ | I'll have a poke when I get in tomorrow | 23:54 |
| sivang | rarely, but it does :-p | 23:54 |
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| sivang | slaine_: you work for Nokia ? | 23:54 |
| slaine_ | it's finished downloading at least :) | 23:55 |
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| slaine_ | sivang: No, i'm just a user | 23:55 |
| sivang | slaine_: like me :) | 23:55 |
| slaine_ | yay | 23:55 |
| sivang | how do I log in... | 23:56 |
| sivang | how do I log... | 23:56 |
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| sivang | please dear SSO , work! | 23:56 |
| sivang | kthxbye | 23:56 |
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| sivang | slaine_: is this the wiki you added you doc to? | 23:57 |
| sivang | slaine_: how do I add content to there? | 23:57 |
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| slaine_ | I didn't update a wiki | 23:59 |
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| ali1234 | slaine_: i still have not figured out how i am going to sort out the deps so i can build in the right order | 23:59 |
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