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| merlin1991 | Pali: ping | 11:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Pali | merlin1991, pong | 11:00 |
| merlin1991 | do you have a modest build tree around? I'm wondering what goes into intltool-update.in, because here it is empty and the configure script fails thanks to that | 11:01 |
| Pali | in my modest tree there is no intltool-update.in file | 11:02 |
| merlin1991 | it got created on build time here | 11:03 |
| merlin1991 | something is wrong with my modest tree, I'll do a clean git clone | 11:04 |
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| iDont | merlin1991: ping | 11:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | (([2012-08-23 19:43:25] <Estel_> I'm just interested what ham may do "better" than me manually about repos + fapman about installing (other than using off-line mode to install system ugprade, which I mimic anyway) )) A) CSSU installer is using HAM (we wouldn't want to install fapman just to install CSSU) B) CSSU is tested against HAM C) we investigated fapman just enough to know we don't want to support it and it may/does have | 13:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | problems when it comes to CSSU D) eventually CSSU comes with massive CSSU specific augments to HAM (not fapman) --> If you want to compare your weird method to the way CSSU installer works, you just have to learn about, and understand all that. Plus fapman, which for obvious reasons none of CSSU team is interested in learning about even more than we already did | 13:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for sure nobody of CSSU team will investigate, just to answer your "academic" question | 13:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw I doubt your manual method is any faster than (admittedly slow) HAM, just you have a lot to do manually while with standard CSSU installer & HAM you could use the time HAM needs to complete the task unattended and automatically, to do some more useful things rather than fuzzinh around with manual editing of repo lists, checking .desktop files and scripts and thinking how to replace all that using fapman | 13:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just hope you never ever forget to mention this weird way you installed and updated CSSU, whenever you report a bug against CSSU-T (or rather maybe don't even bother to report any bugs, since due to this installation method all those tickets shall get closed INVALID) | 13:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's not reasonable to think about possible causes in that installation method when it comes to whatever bug report, just useless nonsensical complications | 13:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | It's a real pitty you basically refuse to help debugging CSSU-T just to satisfy your rather ideological aversion against HAM - after all it's just 5 min of calm waiting you had to bear with, once for each CSSU install/update | 13:22 |
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| Lava_Croft | Too bad that's not a criminal offense | 14:22 |
| Lava_Croft | Right? | 14:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, a pun! hahahaha | 14:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | almost missed it | 14:53 |
| * Lava_Croft faintly smiles at DocScrutinizer05 | 14:54 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's just that: a pity. CSSU could use every single tester, but it for sure doesn't need bug reports that in fact are against a non-standard installation and thus waste everybody's time | 15:00 |
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| Lava_Croft | I'm not the one who has to be convinced of anything in this case. :< | 15:00 |
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| Lava_Croft | But a bug is a bug. | 15:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and investigating where from a bug originates makes no sense for non-standard deprecated installs | 15:11 |
| Lava_Croft | depends on your definition of deprecrated? | 15:12 |
| Lava_Croft | since the n900 itself is deprecated, idk | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fapman definitely meets general definition of deprecated for CSSU | 15:13 |
| Lava_Croft | and tbh, these discussions are an utter waste of time and your good mood | 15:13 |
| Lava_Croft | estel isnt a 'noob' | 15:13 |
| Lava_Croft | so why bother | 15:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just hoping for the best (I.I. a change in habits), probably due to my good mood | 15:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I.E.* | 15:14 |
| chem|st | Lava_Croft: boon? | 15:14 |
| Lava_Croft | noob tobias? | 15:14 |
| Lava_Croft | oh wait | 15:14 |
| Lava_Croft | noob saibot was it | 15:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N.B. we started that discussion since somebody had a problem with installing CSSU | 15:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | utterly useless to claim "I never seen those problems - I used fapman" | 15:15 |
| Lava_Croft | thats what i mean, why bother with estel and this situation | 15:16 |
| Lava_Croft | he isnt a random poor user that runs into a real bug | 15:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe I tried to be polite to everybody | 15:16 |
| Lava_Croft | that would be a first, right? :P | 15:16 |
| Lava_Croft | ok, that was a bit low | 15:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my usual answer would've been less friendly and educational | 15:16 |
| chem|st | OT I'd like to backupmenu my device before starting off with next cssu-s release, any idea where a how-to is as tmo seems outdated | 15:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I deliberately ignored the fact that Estel_ is no noob and should've known better | 15:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | howto for BM? useless, it's as straightforward as it gets | 15:19 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: noob/boon also specifies people not helping the game by ignoring rules/facts/needs | 15:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, wasn't aware of that definition | 15:19 |
| Lava_Croft | :) | 15:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: install BM, boot with slider open | 15:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see menu | 15:20 |
| chem|st | people whom do not learn from their mistakes are included | 15:20 |
| Lava_Croft | chem|st: yup | 15:20 |
| Lava_Croft | newbies are fine, noobs are not | 15:20 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: extras-devel and just that? the tmo thread is confusing with the bootmenu stuff | 15:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess so | 15:21 |
| Lava_Croft | chem|st: thats what i used | 15:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd think most recent and best version is in -devel | 15:21 |
| Lava_Croft | i think that goes for a lot of applications | 15:21 |
| chem|st | Lava_Croft: newbies are noobs... noob is n00b 1337speak for newb | 15:21 |
| Lava_Croft | chem|st: not in my book | 15:21 |
| Lava_Croft | newbies are new players, noobs are not | 15:21 |
| Lava_Croft | well, they can be, but mostly they arent | 15:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~dict noob | 15:21 |
| infobot | Dictionary 'noob' <jargon> /n[y]oo'bee/ (Sometimes shorted to "noob") Originally from British public-school and military slang variant of "new boy", an inexperienced user. This term surfaced in the {newsgroup} {news:talk.bizarre} but is now in wide use. Criteria for being considered a newbie vary wildly; a person can be called a newbie in one group while remaining a respected regular in another. The label "newbie" is sometimes applied as a serious ... | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >> Criteria for being considered a newbie vary wildly...<< is the key | 15:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | language is dynamic and meanings change during periods of as short as some days | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see "hacker" | 15:24 |
| chem|st | yes.... but, so you join a group and do not adapt to it makes you a noob in all cases | 15:24 |
| Lava_Croft | hacker is someone who jailbreaks his iphone right | 15:24 |
| jon_y | I prefer statically typed language :) | 15:24 |
| jon_y | these days, following a script will get you that | 15:25 |
| jon_y | learn2read makes you a cool hacker | 15:25 |
| jon_y | I know because I jailbroken iphone back in the 3g days by following instructions on the internet :) | 15:25 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 ponders opening a shop called typecast | 15:26 | |
| jon_y | lol | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | today's offer: our all-in-one extra-complete "cool hacker" box | 15:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | comes incl sweatshirt | 15:27 |
| chem|st | don't forget the 'hacked' reading iphone case! | 15:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 15:28 |
| jon_y | I made good money from jail breaking iphones, those guys paid me, without me asking, free money is cool too :) | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now that's one awesome business model | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | alas it would require me buying a spyPhone | 15:30 |
| chem|st | "little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of tikitaki, little boxes all the same" | 15:30 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: why? | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, indeed | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for RL-advertising? | 15:30 |
| chem|st | you don't need an preyPhone.... you need a shirtlabeler and a foilplotter and a supply of blank preyPhone cases | 15:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | right | 15:32 |
| chem|st | sums up to 1200eur... not bad for a entrepreneur.... | 15:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now for something completely different: could somebody have a look at starhash-enabler and ponder if it basically qualifies as proper fix to include to CSSU? | 15:32 |
| jon_y | well, internship ended, so did the number of office workers coming to me with grey market iphones | 15:33 |
| jon_y | it was nice while it lasted | 15:33 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: fuck what... I never had it and I can send codes... | 15:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 15:33 |
| jon_y | whoa, you could? | 15:33 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: you just need to enable it in the phone.conf by hand... | 15:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can send *#67# ? | 15:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | right | 15:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's what *#-ena does | 15:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P | 15:34 |
| chem|st | I use the n9 now but I tried some stuff back then, that was PR1.2x stuff | 15:34 |
| chem|st | they just did not enable it by default... | 15:34 |
| chem|st | was wondering what for this app might be? thought it is a sensless GUI | 15:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so let me rephrase: could we make CSSU tweak phone.conf to enable codes for everybody? | 15:35 |
| chem|st | no | 15:35 |
| chem|st | ... | 15:35 |
| jon_y | the holy grail is getting to the firmware itself | 15:36 |
| jon_y | so I can edit the SMS headers :) | 15:36 |
| chem|st | well I cannot use all codes requested as I basically do not have that function provider wise | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | definitely less of an invasive tweak than e.g. allowing mounting of multiple arbitrary partitions on uSD | 15:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: it's however a visible difference whether your providers says "not supported" or your phone refuses to send the code at all | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can detect difference with any arbitrary set of allowed functions by your carrier | 15:38 |
| chem|st | the phone, on the bad side, does not reply in a very telling way... | 15:38 |
| chem|st | well that I do not remember | 15:39 |
| chem|st | looong time ago! | 15:39 |
| chem|st | make it years... | 15:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | same here | 15:39 |
| chem|st | when was 1.2? 2010 something right? | 15:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but in the end I maintained *#-ena so I know about it's particulars from back when | 15:40 |
| chem|st | I did test some stuff as I needed to change some mailbox stuff which can only be altered with codes, while I was on another phone with my providers support | 15:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (just on a sidenode I also pushed Nokia to enable SCC at all) | 15:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | back when konttori asked "anything else my teams could do, they get bored" OWTTE | 15:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | a pity my request for service monitor mode never really made it | 15:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but in the end it bought me at least a N950 | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which konttori thought I should receive, and pondered how to pass one to me | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pr1.2 | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | GRRRR | 15:45 |
| chem|st | for supplementary it is The following lines in ~/.osso/call-ui.ini do the trick: | 15:51 |
| chem|st | [supplementary] | 15:51 |
| chem|st | ssc=1 | 15:51 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: pong | 15:53 |
| * Jaffa sees a highlight but has been AFK for 4 days | 15:54 | |
| iDont | merlin1991, I noticed in the chanlogs that you had some concerns regarding busybox-power and busybox in CSSU | 15:55 |
| merlin1991 | yses | 15:55 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: you posted that yourself back in 2010 | 15:55 |
| chem|st | Jaffa: /away will help... | 15:55 |
| iDont | busybox-power replaces /bin/busybox, but /bin/busybox stays owned by Maemo's own package | 15:56 |
| iDont | when BusyBox would get updated by the CSSU, /bin/busybox would simply be replaced by CSSU's version | 15:56 |
| merlin1991 | so the user would have to reinstall busybox-power? | 15:56 |
| iDont | that would cause no problems, but if an user has modifies e.g. /sbin/preinit with bb-power specific commands, that could be an issue | 15:56 |
| merlin1991 | and whatabout the links ie less that are not part of the stock busybox? | 15:57 |
| iDont | those will stay as long as busybox-power is still installed | 15:58 |
| iDont | busybox exits with status 1 if an applet is called that it doesn't supply | 15:58 |
| chem|st | so weekend bb! | 15:58 |
| iDont | So to summarize: CSSU can safely update busybox, the user would only need to reinstall busybox-power, no problems there. Only if users edited critical scripts with bb-power specific features, that could pose an issue | 16:00 |
| merlin1991 | hm that should be safe enough | 16:00 |
| iDont | a notice would be handy for those who did manually edit critical scripts, but I suppose that notice would be best plpsted in bb-power's thread? | 16:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | editing initscripts always causes trouble | 16:02 |
| iDont | s/plpsted/posted | 16:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I hope busybox-power won't be considered madatory part of CSSU anyway | 16:02 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, I agree, editing initscripts is the user's responsibility, though a notice comes in handy for them :) | 16:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: I can't see how that's CSSU specific problem | 16:03 |
| iDont | it isn't, and I wasn't implying it is | 16:04 |
| iDont | at least I didn't mean to | 16:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | messing with shell and initscripts is pretty core system stuff, and up to each user's discretion and responsibility. every update has potential to mess up such non-standard systems | 16:04 |
| iDont | Busybox-power has been designed to not break (C)SSU's. However, if an user maken critical scripts dependant on bb-power, then that's their responsibility IMO :) | 16:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's btw one of the reasons why I personally deprecate messybox-power | 16:05 |
| iDont | Well, you don't _have_ to make scripts dependant on busybox-power ;) | 16:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they _are_ | 16:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | change output of ps -> possible bootloop | 16:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | change $anything -> possible bootloop | 16:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can't even rule out that scripts depend on some commands _not_ being supported by busybox | 16:07 |
| iDont | Yes, you're absolutely right. That's why packages that use busybox-power's features, should depend on busybox-power | 16:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but well, that's up to every user's own discretion and mood for venture | 16:08 |
| iDont | However, _manual_ modifications to other package's scripts (like inittscripts), are up to the user's responsibility | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's true for sure | 16:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually the correct statement was: init(scripts) should depend on stock busybox | 16:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and since I know they do, I'm quite averse to _replace_ busybox_stock by *anything*. Rather get my fav shell in addition to stock busybox | 16:12 |
| iDont | I completely understand your opinion :) | 16:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | recently somebody ran into a pitfall when replacing default shell busybox by anything else, then noticed this $anything_else doesn't work in BM | 16:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when you replace some core component, you don't only take responsibility for the stuff you depend on, but also for all the stuff that depends on your replaced component | 16:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | quite tricky to get those all and not miss any nasty fringe case | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | badsically mission impossible | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | -d | 16:16 |
| iDont | All I can say is that I do my very best to solve regressions vs. the stock busybox binary | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | eventually Nokia ran into a nasty situation where roofs got filled up so much they couldn't easily run next PR-update. Who's been the culprit? In the end it doesn't matter, you always have to consider _all_possible side effects when messing with system-level/rootfs stuff | 16:19 |
| iDont | at least there are no critical issues I'm aware of, and busybox-power has been around for quite a while now | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | much appreciated | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 16:20 |
| Jaffa | chem|st: AIUI, that's generally considered poor form on IRC these days. If I'd remembered, I'd've /quit | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the idea to add an elaborated warning for users, regarding possible side effects, is actually all sane | 16:21 |
| iDont | do you mean the warning regarding the CSSU update, or the warning that users get to see when installing busybox-power for the first time? | 16:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "dear user, though we took great effort to smoke out any regressions of xy-power vs original xy, we can't guarantee complete compatibility. For example the mere binary size alone differs. You should expect and prepare for unpleasant side effects, up to a possible system bootup failure that requires a complete reflash" | 16:23 |
| iDont | The current warning states: "Warning: This package touches an essential system binary! | 16:24 |
| iDont | Even though installation should be safe, a reflash might be required if something does go wrong (i.e. worst-case scenario)." | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fair enough | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 16:24 |
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| iDont | anyway, I got to go now. Please do know that I appreciate your input and completely understand your opinion. I indeed can't guarantee 100% compatibility, but I do the best I can, and I suppose that's what you'll have to accept when installing busybox-power. | 16:26 |
| iDont | ^DocScrutinizer05 | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I think you can't do any better. Many thanks :-) | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and indeed we might think more about non-standard installs when it comes to CSSU installation. I dunno haw we handle e.g. shell not standard, I know we ignore opername widget non standard (not very nice either) | 16:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | s/haw/how/ | 16:29 |
| iDont | well, I'll make sure busybox-power is as compatible as possible with the stock busybox so (C)SSU won't have to worry about that ;-) | 16:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we shouldn't go the MS/windows way of expecting we got a whole standard device to mess with at our discretion (windows ignoring and nuking any linux installs / bootloaders etc). We might add tests (and user warnings or even requesters) for all we touch and we find is not standard | 16:31 |
| iDont | I would love to continue discussion, but I'm afraid I really have to go now. Thanks again for the input and discussion :-) | 16:32 |
| iDont | Bye! | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 16:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: do we usually require a dependency like (original) XY=1.0.0 when we plan to replace original XY by some bugfixed version? | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, too fuzzy? | 16:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | on instance busybox: if we ever were to replace busybox by a bugfixed version, do we DEPEND on installed original busybox-3:1.10.2.legal-1osso30+0m5, so we'd refuse to replace any busybox-power (or newer busybox) that might have been installed? | 16:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: seems for operator name applet we didn't? | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or did we? and that's what we got for that? | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hell, I need to get me a crash course for apt/dpkg | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since: if we replace busybox-3:1.10.2.legal-1osso30+0m5, I gather we'd use a higher version number at least. So how's that compatible with somebody planning to install busybox-power then? | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably busybox-power should accept our bugfixed version as met dependency, if the buysbox-power implements "our" bugfix of "our" busybox version as well | 16:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise busybox-power should refuse to replace our bugfixed plain busybox version, since we implemented the bugfix for some reason | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, those alternatives drive me nuts | 16:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | actually busybox-power=1.20.0power1, so I dunno how it manages to remove busybox-3:1.10.2.legal-1osso30+0m5. | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~ # apt-cache rdepends busybox | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | busybox | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Reverse Depends: | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cell-modem-ui | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | upstart | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | osso-core-config | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | |osso-core-config | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mp-fremantle-generic-pr | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | . | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~ # apt-cache rdepends busybox-power | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | busybox-power | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Reverse Depends: | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >nada> | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even: apt-cache depends busybox vs. apt-cache depends busybox-power :-o | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what's the difference in semantics in "Conflicts: <coreutils>" vs "Conflicts: debianutils" without "<>" | 17:02 |
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| Pali | ping merlin1991 | 18:20 |
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| Pali | are you sure that gs-gpl do not show that errors when building osso-wlan? | 18:21 |
| Pali | note that debian/rules clean in osso-wlan tree does not clean correctly!! | 18:22 |
| Pali | you need to clone git osso-wlan git repo again for compiling! | 18:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-S | 18:22 |
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| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, don't worry, before reporting cssu-t bugs, I *always* re-check validity of bug on another device, where cssu-t was installed "holy" way (device owned by family member) | 18:33 |
| Estel_ | in fact, we have talked about it before, and you posted same concerns, I've answered same way... :) | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fine :-) | 18:33 |
| Estel_ | so, basically, chem|st may put his cheap attempts on insisting I',m "different kind of noob" in known, private place. | 18:34 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, also, i'm absolutely aware that it's not recommended way and may, theoretically, pose problems in future. i'm not recommending it to anyone, and doing it out of curiosity | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, let's try to continue on polite tone, when I already started one of my rare attempts | 18:35 |
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| Estel_ | if situation happens, where fapman can't handle it, i'll be probably first to report differences between ham way and fapman way | 18:35 |
| Estel_ | true, You're right :) | 18:35 |
| Estel_ | BTw, i've observed *many* users installing cssu via fapman, half of them, in my humble opinion, wouldn't be able to solve single simplest problem, that may appear (due to random crash while updating, etc) | 18:36 |
| Estel_ | so, I think that there is - even if small - value in detecting "D-day" where fapman update for cssu will be wrong for everyone, and warn them | 18:36 |
| Estel_ | at least few "cssu blowed my device!!11!" posts in thread on tmo ;) | 18:37 |
| Estel_ | in fact, due fact, that those 2 devices have identical system settings, I'm keeping track of files changes during update, and diff between those files | 18:38 |
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| Estel_ | kinda paranoicd, but I've took seriously concern about risk in fapman way of updating CSSU. Well, curiosity is stronger ;D | 18:38 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, thumb up for including busybox-power in CSSU, if that ever happens | 18:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how would busybox-power qualify for CSSU? fixing bugs? | 18:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bringing much demanded additional basic features to 'normal' users? esp features they can't install from extras repos? | 18:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or again just featuritis | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "eat my happiness" | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why not first include rootsh as mandatory part of CSSU? waaait... you can install rootsh from extras-* repo as well, and no user needs it to fix any problem he faces (except of course if you want to become root, which is what rootsh is meant for) | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | again: CSSU is not about augmenting/expanding the number of mandatory packages that come with basic install - au contraire we shall try hard to *reduce* this annoyance and allow to simply DISinstall useless crap like modest | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't see how including busybox-power fits in to that policy | 18:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or let me put it this way: if busybox-power was in MP, first thing I would want to do is get rid of it, since it eats space on my rootfs for absolutely no obvious reason | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | busybox is a lean shell with builtin cmds, to run initscripts when no /opt is mounted yet | 18:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's definitely no justification to bloat it with stuff that's never needed during early boot | 18:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | arguing for busybox-power by default is kinda along the insane line of argumentation against /usr done by Poettering in context of his upstart-remake | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which obviously neglects embedded systems like N900 | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and instead assumes your rootfs always is at least 5GB in size | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~poettering | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* | 19:03 |
| javispedro | oh, poettering hate! | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and bye | 19:03 |
| javispedro | :) | 19:03 |
| merlin1991 | javispedro: #maemo-ssu is made of 50% poettering hate :D | 19:10 |
| javispedro | wonderful | 19:11 |
| merlin1991 | and 90% WTF why doesn't modest compile (for me at least atm) | 19:11 |
| javispedro | cause ever since he started intentionally breaking udev for non-systemd users and I had to look at busybox's mdev for a replacement.... | 19:12 |
| javispedro | <hate/><hate/> | 19:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WTF? now even udev? | 19:19 |
| merlin1991 | Pali: which version of automake do you have in your scratchbox? | 19:20 |
| Lava_Croft | what udev | 19:20 |
| Lava_Croft | are you serious | 19:20 |
| Lava_Croft | now thats a reason to not use it anymore | 19:20 |
| Pali | merlin1991, sorry I do not know now. I'm running notebook on battery so I do not want to start qemu sdk image (where is my scratchbox) | 19:26 |
| merlin1991 | ah okay | 19:26 |
| Pali | Lava_Croft, time to fork udev? | 19:26 |
| Pali | I think udev is still good sw, it should not be poetteringed :D | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a pretty simple, effective, and working piece of software, once you understood what and how it does in detail | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while for systemd I wait for integration of not only udev and dbus (to control the shite) but also integration of pulseaudio into one undigestible blob, to have accoustic feedback during early boot | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you noticed systemd uses $PAGER (or probably even worse) for silly stuff like --help ? | 19:33 |
| Pali | I do not have systemd, using kubuntu... | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, one of my laptops got fedora installed by the guy I got it from -- eventually I started puking | 19:34 |
| Pali | I think that I know how to configure ubuntu upstart, so until now I was able to solve all upstart problems... | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fedora actually comes with /usr messed up already | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and probably next step is systemd --interactive, with ncurses or Qt GUI | 19:37 |
| Pali | they will include plymouth into systemd :D | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wait, dunno maybe I'm already late on that | 19:37 |
| Pali | upstart has one big problem - no output what doing - you do not know which process was started and which failed | 19:38 |
| Pali | so you need to look into syslog | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actzually even most recent OpenSUSE comes with systemd by default >:-((( | 19:39 |
| Pali | ubuntu devs created plymouth module (external process!) which only connect to upstart and write log (Starting XYZ... OK) to stdout | 19:39 |
| Pali | it doing nothing with plymouth now! but it is in plymouth tree | 19:40 |
| Pali | I did not understand how was this code upstreamed! | 19:40 |
| Pali | it is really in plymouth git tree | 19:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | linux raided by flakes | 19:40 |
| merlin1991 | hm I'd do a new scratchbox target but I don't have the rootstraps around | 19:40 |
| merlin1991 | stufu intltool | 19:41 |
| Pali | last year I wrote small (real) plugin for ubuntu plymouth which print that messages like Starting/Stopping daemon XYZ to plymouth message area | 19:41 |
| Pali | but ubuntu devs rejected it, because it was not in upstream plymouth... | 19:42 |
| Pali | so after ubuntu migrated from usplash to plymouth they do not have any verbose boot log messages :-( | 19:43 |
| merlin1991 | hm where are all the fancy m4 files on a system? | 19:43 |
| Pali | I hate m4 language :D | 19:45 |
| merlin1991 | well I'm trying to find out where the fuck this intltool-update.in gets created and hence why it is empty | 19:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | wtf inittool? | 19:51 |
| merlin1991 | intltool | 19:52 |
| merlin1991 | intltool - Utility scripts for internationalizing XML | 19:53 |
| merlin1991 | but somehow automake fails to build a proper .in file and thus goes mental | 19:53 |
| merlin1991 | and fails with "not an int" error | 19:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh I was wrong, actually it's even worse: it's systemctl that uses pager and communicates with systemd | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while systemd has basically no proper userinterface at all, it seems | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh! | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | systemd<tab><tab> -> TWELFE binaries | 19:59 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer05: Pali: udev has been for a while under lennart's control. Only he promised the "non-systemd setups will still be supported". Already forgot about his promises... for a start the binary is now called systemd-udev | 19:59 |
| javispedro | it installs a bunch of stuff under /lib/systemd | 20:00 |
| javispedro | and while I stopped there I assume it probably links with systemd stuff | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | couldn't somebody stop this moron!? | 20:00 |
| javispedro | (on my gentoo box /lib/systemd is install_masked aka every file installed there is rm'd instantly => broken boot) | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | where should we post our "NIET!" ? LKML? | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Linus? | 20:03 |
| Lava_Croft | Even Dutchies understand NIET | 20:04 |
| merlin1991 | Pali: I haxxored past this build problem by getting the proper .in files from /usr/share/intltool into the tree | 20:04 |
| merlin1991 | but there defenitely is something weird going on | 20:04 |
| Pali | scratchbox is really bad SW, I'm happy that linux has enought security that scratchbox cannot leave my qemu image :-) | 20:05 |
| Pali | and do not destroy my running system | 20:05 |
| merlin1991 | hehe | 20:06 |
| merlin1991 | Pali: well I copied them from the /usr/share/intltool inside sb, so part of the target fs | 20:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | wait til you got the brilliant idea of "rm -rf /scratchbox" ;-P | 20:06 |
| merlin1991 | but I would still like to know where the fuck those empty useless files came from | 20:06 |
| javispedro | scratchbox is quite fine, it's only problem is that it is virtually a decade old | 20:07 |
| Pali | DocScrutinizer05, who is maintainer of udev? | 20:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MohammadAG once killed his server like that | 20:07 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: well sb goes into init scripts | 20:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, infobot down | 20:07 |
| merlin1991 | if you just rm -r /scratchbox you're killing yourself :D | 20:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~dauthor udev | 20:07 |
| Pali | better way: $ shred -u maemosdk_desktop_lucid-36-2.vmdk | 20:08 |
| Pali | this will really remove scratchbox inside qemu maemo sdk image :-) | 20:08 |
| MohammadAG | Hell yea | 20:08 |
| javispedro | merlin1991: DocScrutinizer05: you need to stop it and ensure there are no bind moutns left before rm'ing it. | 20:09 |
| Pali | without side effect (destroyed your system) :-) | 20:09 |
| merlin1991 | javispedro: exactly :) | 20:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | javispedro: I know ;-) | 20:09 |
| merlin1991 | /scratchbox/sbin/unmount_all is the magic I think | 20:09 |
| merlin1991 | it's /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_umount_all | 20:09 |
| Pali | $ mount | grep /scratchbox | 20:09 |
| Pali | do not trust scratchbox | 20:10 |
| javispedro | Pali: udev's home is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/udev | 20:10 |
| javispedro | (yes, inside systemd...) | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WAAAAH! | 20:11 |
| Pali | I know that udev was inluded into systemd | 20:11 |
| javispedro | whether the maintainer is still kay or is now officially lennart I don't know | 20:11 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 grabs his javelin | 20:11 | |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: you didn't know? | 20:11 |
| merlin1991 | when it got included lennart promised to keep supporting non-systemd systems | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freedesktop more and more feels like the 7th department of hell to me | 20:12 |
| merlin1991 | "it's only a maintainance convenience thing" sure sure | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, we need to call him out on that | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as publicly as possible | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this guy is so ... ~poettering | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it hurts in the ass | 20:13 |
| Pali | also lennart got idea about offline updates on fedora | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nayway, Lava_Croft suggested I shouldn't spoil my fine mood. No I did, and I'm going to have dinner before this gets serious | 20:14 |
| Pali | two reboot because of doing system update... | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now* I did | 20:15 |
| merlin1991 | hm dinner | 20:15 |
| merlin1991 | good idea | 20:15 |
| merlin1991 | nextup clogging my upstream whilst uploading to repository.maemo.org | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | later on fireworks to attend, so bb(m)l | 20:16 |
| Lava_Croft | DocScrutinizer05: everybody in the channels you are in benefits from you having a good mood, most of all yourself! | 20:18 |
| Lava_Croft | maemo is awesome, but not something to spoil your mood! | 20:18 |
| Lava_Croft | its a first-world problem | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 20:18 |
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| merlin1991 | okay everything from pali is ready, now it's time for changes by freemangordon | 20:21 |
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| merlin1991 | hm my sb target seems to be fsckd | 20:34 |
| * merlin1991 will redo from start when back in vienna | 20:34 | |
| Estel_ | how busybox power qualifies for CSSU? Of course, via bringing upstream bugfixes | 20:42 |
| Estel_ | and "normal" features from upstream, as addition, doesn't hurt | 20:42 |
| Estel_ | unless someone want to discuss with upstream fixes again, continuing own habit of doing so ;) | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | re jon_y: in Openmoko days (before N900 been even announced) we had a saying "Jailbreak? LOL! on my phone I'm root!" (http://freeyourphone.de/portal_v1/gallery/menu.php?gallery=members&album_id=10) | 20:43 |
| Estel_ | it seems to me - or at least I hope for - that it was decided already, that CSSu isn't some strange LST "hard bugfixes only" compilation | 20:43 |
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| Estel_ | (not to mention that bringing upstream bugfixes from wast busybox-power changelog, would be in line even for that only...) | 20:43 |
| Estel_ | as LST approach doesn't seem to be what msot CSSU user *and* most active CSSU contributors want, and could cost CSSU contributions from many of them (from both groups) | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not if binary increases in size significantly for no reason, just for the "added benefits of "normal" features from upstream, as addition" which definitely hurts | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even fixing 2bugs" can break things when e.g. scripts rely on the bugs | 20:46 |
| Estel_ | You recently started to care for binary size? then You should be most vocal supported of thumb2 in CSSU | 20:46 |
| Estel_ | and protecting scripts that rely on bugs is LOL | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pffff, you won't turn my words into their opposite again | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bye | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw your way to argue is LOL | 20:47 |
| Estel_ | well, I'm sure you're able of "providing" more, than trying to deflect arguments about upstream bugfixes by increased binary size (! - in terms of kilobytes...) and "scripts that rely on bugs". It's ridicolous | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ETX | 20:48 |
| Lava_Croft | THINK ABOUT THE MOOD | 20:48 |
| Estel_ | anyway, do as please You, but expect that - as I hope - cssu maintainers wil ldecide basing upon merit, not ideology, with arguments forged only for single purpose. | 20:48 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, ^^^ - is the increased binary size (WTF?) and 3rd party scripts relying on bugs (WTF 2 ?!) relevant for thinking about package inclusions in CSSU? | 20:49 |
| Estel_ | I would like to know maintainer opinion about it, as that would change a LOT of things ;) | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even maintainer of busybox-power agreed on warning needed regarding stability of the package. And not even starting about your merits | 20:50 |
| Estel_ | well, at the same time he confirme,d that there are no known issues, and that he did best to maintain compatibility and stability - as every freakin package in cssu, you *never* can be 100% sure, even on one liners. | 20:51 |
| Estel_ | OTOH, inc ase of lacking merit arguments, You've took upon binary size (! again) and compilance with *hyphotetical* 3rd party scripts relying on bugs (!!!!!!), which almsot made me chuckle | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: better simply ignore Estel_, he's in a polemic mood again, arguing with made up quotes (3rd party scripts) and insults (merit, where he got no clue what that even means) | 20:52 |
| Estel_ | no one depreciated arguments about stability etc - but as per any measurements, it's already fulfiled. OTOH, 2nd set of arguments is just that - ridicolous | 20:52 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, merlin1991 is grown up, and he wil ldecide on his owen, if he like to answer my question directed at HIM, not You, ok? | 20:53 |
| Estel_ | You have said already that You've quit this discussion, so why not comply? | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so don't talk to me when I talked to merlin1991, he's grown up so can answer to me directly! OK!?! | 20:53 |
| Estel_ | it's funny that youre quotting "poettering", as it's prime example of what are You doing - offensively push your beliefs on others, including shaping RIDICOLOUS arguments as sake | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're close to a kick, due to trolling | 20:54 |
| Estel_ | whatever, "increase in binary size due to bugfixes" and "compliance with 3rd party scripts relying on bugs" wil lsurely find honorable palce amongst collection of quotations from You | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but baeh! | 20:54 |
| Estel_ | s/palce/place/ | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except that "compliance with 3rd party scripts relying on bugs" is completely made up by you | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as is "increase in binary size due to bugfixes" | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | congrats | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | second warning | 20:55 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> how busybox power qualifies for CSSU? Of course, via bringing upstream bugfixes | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I neither ever said "3rd party" nor "...by bugfixes" | 20:56 |
| Estel_ | <DocScrutinizer05> not if binary increases in size significantly for no reason, just for the "added benefits of "normal" features from upstream, as addition" which definitely hurts | 20:56 |
| Estel_ | <DocScrutinizer05> even fixing 2bugs" can break things when e.g. scripts rely on the bugs | 20:56 |
| Estel_ | sure | 20:56 |
| Estel_ | I have made up everything, so instead, i'll just point to dirtect quotations. happy? | 20:56 |
| Estel_ | now I'm off for dinner | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fine, hope you actually do that. Keeps me from kicking you | 20:57 |
| Lava_Croft | That will make you win the discussion right | 20:57 |
| Sicelo | heh. | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anfd yes, CSSU is all about LTS | 20:58 |
| Lava_Croft | i think the proper thing to do for you two is to take it a private chat | 20:59 |
| Lava_Croft | so you can whine at each other there | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and stuffing rootfs with "useless" improvements that hardly anybody ever uses, is just idiotic | 20:59 |
| Estel_ | well, it seems to me that it's up to maintainers, and as far as I know, it is not about LTS only - future will tell who was right :) | 20:59 |
| Estel_ | no point in arguing, eh? | 20:59 |
| Pali | first we must define LTS | 21:00 |
| Pali | we cannot talk about something which is not properly defined | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | one thing's for sure, LTS is concervative and not featuritis/bleeding-edge for shits'n'giggles | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but meh, I'm wasting last bit of my formerly fine mood on useless arguing with estel again, who's still the best troll I've ever seen | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | se bbl | 21:02 |
| Lava_Croft | "Some release versions might be classified as a long term support (LTS) release, which should guarantee the ability to upgrade to the next LTS release and will be supported/updated/patched for a longer time than a non-LTS release." | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so* - fotr good | 21:02 |
| Pali | DocScrutinizer05: no, you are wrong. The best troll is now on LKML :D | 21:02 |
| Estel_ | Lava_Croft, exactly, which nowhere applied to Maemo at all | 21:02 |
| Lava_Croft | mind you, quoted from wikipedia | 21:03 |
| Estel_ | also, upstream fixes - like in busybox power - are never for shit'n'giggles | 21:03 |
| Estel_ | it's jsut that some "vocal onceS", as described in famous TMO post, have habit of discussing with upstream patches, for sake of preserving own prefferences | 21:03 |
| Lava_Croft | The best solution to a problem like this is not include the package until any kind of agreement has been reached | 21:03 |
| Lava_Croft | for the sake of safety | 21:03 |
| Pali | I think that using upstream patches/code is on package maintainer | 21:03 |
| Lava_Croft | and probably sanity of some people | 21:04 |
| Estel_ | just as a sad reminder, and as way of mentioning wuich TMO post I'm reffering to: | 21:04 |
| Estel_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1254012&postcount=632 | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, last warning | 21:05 |
| Estel_ | this one is also worth reading: | 21:05 |
| Estel_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1254232&postcount=637 | 21:05 |
| Pali | DocScrutinizer05, this is troll: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/8/23/176 | 21:06 |
| Lava_Croft | haha | 21:06 |
| Pali | I think nobody can be compared with this troll ^^^ | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, stop threatening me which pointless "kick warnings", jsut because You can't control your emotions. you don't have any reasons for jsutified kick, so either go and take a walk, or abuse your powers *again* | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | I'm here for meritocratic discussion, not some "Imma gonna kick You"" childlish shit. | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm temped to do exactly what you suggest | 21:07 |
| Lava_Croft | That will only make DocScrutinizer05 look like the silly person | 21:07 |
| Estel_ | I hope it reffers to "take a walk" ;) | 21:07 |
| Lava_Croft | Better not kick, it servers no purpose other than to satisfy yourself, DocScrutinizer05 | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I know | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just waiting for Estel_ to post another "lie" | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or insult | 21:07 |
| Lava_Croft | So far, most of the insult-type things have come from your side | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | and quotes from posts on TMO I'm psoting are *exactly* relevant to discussion. | 21:08 |
| Lava_Croft | please. | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or spamming channel with useless URLs | 21:08 |
| Lava_Croft | Keep it civil and at least somewhat adult | 21:08 |
| Lava_Croft | he pasted 2 urls | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | sure, url where LTS problem is mentione dis definitelly useless for discussion about cssu being LTS or not | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | seriously... | 21:08 |
| Lava_Croft | really now, i dont want to side with either of you, but keep it 'normal' | 21:08 |
| Lava_Croft | maybe you two should both take a break from this endless discussion | 21:09 |
| Lava_Croft | and just see if you can find the power in yourself to shut the fuck up about this subject for at least 24h | 21:09 |
| javispedro | he suggested using FORTRAN, and everybody barfed. | 21:09 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Lava_Croft | 21:09 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please +q both of us! | 21:09 |
| Lava_Croft | What good will that do | 21:10 |
| kerio | cssu is all about LTS, which is why it ships a broken operator name widget | 21:10 |
| Estel_ | :| I msut admit I'm embarassed how childish it is | 21:10 |
| Lava_Croft | Its about the power in yourself, not in me | 21:10 |
| *** Lava_Croft sets mode: -o Lava_Croft | 21:10 | |
| Lava_Croft | Im not the type to go powertripping | 21:10 |
| Lava_Croft | II left that behind in Quakeworld | 21:10 |
| Lava_Croft | in the late 90s | 21:10 |
| Lava_Croft | Take a break from this, both of you | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | == +q | 21:10 |
| Lava_Croft | no, its not | 21:11 |
| Lava_Croft | thats is *making* you take a break from it | 21:11 |
| kerio | re:marking all bug reports from people who don't use ham to install cssu INVALID is stupid as hell | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well how can I take a break when fools accuse me of ideology (my own evil one) by quoting me incorrectly on my pretty common sense concern that rootfs shouldn't be crammed with binary code not needed at boottime? | 21:12 |
| Lava_Croft | DocScrutinizer05: thats the power im talking about | 21:13 |
| Lava_Croft | Walk away for a day | 21:13 |
| Lava_Croft | or half a day, whatever, you get the idea | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 21:14 |
| Lava_Croft | Good evening, take care! | 21:14 |
| Estel_ | AFAIK, projects that have LTS release, also use non-LTS updates in between. | 21:19 |
| Estel_ | In context of CSSU, cssu-stable may be considered LTS, and it seems thta it fulfill this requiment quite well | 21:20 |
| Estel_ | Hoever, making *every* branch of cssu - -testing and -devel LTS'ish too, is plain wrong, and that is what freemangordon was reffering to in his post on TMO [1] | 21:20 |
| Estel_ | [1] http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1254012&postcount=632 | 21:20 |
| Lava_Croft | Maybe Estel_ should take the same kind of break DocScrutinizer05 seems to be taking? :) | 21:21 |
| Lava_Croft | Be smart! | 21:21 |
| Estel_ | LTs, by definition, can't be sole way of including things, as term LTS is used to differentiate long term support releases from normal releases | 21:21 |
| Estel_ | I'm not talking to DocScrutinizer05, lol, he isn't center of universe | 21:21 |
| Estel_ | this discussion is logged, and will be pointed to interested individuals, CSSU is hot topic lately | 21:21 |
| Lava_Croft | I think you miss my point, but sure, continue! | 21:22 |
| Estel_ | it's very important to use meritocratic arguments in discussion about CSSU, cause the way it will take is shaping, currently. | 21:22 |
| Estel_ | just be polite, civilized, and merit, and everything will be OK, I'm sure :) no need to go into other parts of room with angry face. | 21:23 |
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| MrPingu | That message seems a bit sad to many users, I think we are a bit too conservative regarding what belongs to cssu | 21:38 |
| javispedro | as a total outsider (I don't even know why I'm on this channel =) ), I think that the users DocScrutinizer is thinking about don't post to tmo. | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | why? you're free to get bleeding edge any time | 21:39 |
| MrPingu | Well good example is cssu-kernel | 21:40 |
| MrPingu | IMO, if it's a stable kernel and contains bugfixes over the omap kernel. I want to see it in cssu ;) | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | MrPingu: nothing sad in a bare bones rock solid CSSU that allows you to get all the cute fresh stuff nevertheless | 21:40 |
| MrPingu | True :P | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | MrPingu: if you want to see "cssu-kernel" (you probably mean thumb enabled PK) inyour CSSU, just install it! | 21:42 |
| MrPingu | It's installed :P | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | I never deprecated any pkg for insatallation on top of CSSU | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | but you ought not force users that are not interested in XY to install XY just becuase you think it's cute | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | the wholee point | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | don't make mandatory what in fact isn't | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ideally we wouldn't need any CSSU at all | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | since in an ideal world user could install evrything from 'normal' repos | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | well, maemo world isn't ideal, butkwe can try making it better instead worse | 21:46 |
| MrPingu | True, and I am trying :) | 21:50 |
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| Estel_ | yes, but people deserve to benefit from fixing serious bugs like pselect, and to have serious improvements like cssu-thumb | 22:00 |
| Estel_ | mind You, that thumb, for example, just like cSSU, require special way of installation, not only package in top of cssu | 22:00 |
| Estel_ | also, there is no reason to not have LST as cssu-stable, more bleeding-edge things on cssu-testing, and total testbed in cssu-devel. We have those instances right now | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | cssu-devel is quiet dead | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | as cssu-thumb took that role | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | cssu-stable is severely outdated, currently, and cssu-testing is considered main one,. It's unnaceptable mess | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | we can' affor maintaining 3 LTS releases... | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | also, there is much benefit in having cooperated, already installed cssu + kernel that contain upstream bugfixes, like "kernel" in cssu is going to be | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | + testbed, like kernel-power, for experimental things like bme replacement modules etc | 22:02 |
| javispedro | pselect bug? | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | javispedro, it was discussed for weeks here | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | freemangordon and especially zeq would explain it better than me | 22:03 |
| Estel_ | fixing it requires bits in kernel and in userland, afaik | 22:03 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | javispedro: pselect implementation in glibc(?) is a fake | 22:03 |
| Estel_ | but You may probably google it too, it was fixed ages ago in upstream, but for some reason, arm builds were left out from that, until more recent versions of kernel than one we have | 22:04 |
| Estel_ | but I may be talking BS here, it's zeq part of expertise | 22:04 |
| Estel_ | zeq's* | 22:04 |
| Estel_ | after all, it was he who contributed path for this issue into mainstream, like 5 years ago :P | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | javispedro: pselect (and siblings) bug actually creates need for a cssu-kernel long-term | 22:05 |
| javispedro | I don't think it's like, the most important of bugs | 22:06 |
| javispedro | you are probably not going to see it in like a few billion years unless you intentionally spam a process with signals.. | 22:06 |
| javispedro | besides, which processes actually use pselect? none that uses glib since signals+glib is mostly broken | 22:07 |
| javispedro | most popular way to do signals and select is via anon pipes | 22:08 |
| javispedro | (never heard of pselect... :P ) | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | definitely not | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | yes | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | dbus however seems such a process | 22:08 |
| javispedro | I don't think so | 22:08 |
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| javispedro | $ grep pselect -r dbus-1.4.6 | 22:10 |
| javispedro | $ | 22:10 |
| javispedro | so if the fix includes backporting patches from more recent linux I'd reconsider. | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | means? | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | it includes proper kernel implementation of pselect plus a new glibc that is using this fix | 22:16 |
| javispedro | that if the patch is self contained then go for it, but it's not important IMHO. If it adds complexity then don't go for it because probably will help noone. | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | yep | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | complexity added is new kernel which so far we managed to get away without, for CSSU | 22:18 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | with new kernel a lot of 'progressive' devels want to see better half of PK patches | 22:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | with new kernel a lot of 'progressive' devels want to see better half of PK patches | 22:19 |
| javispedro | (new glibc sounds much more dangerous here) | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | all way more dangerous that many he like to admit | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | here* | 22:20 |
| javispedro | meh, they are changing binaries to another ISA, let em go =) | 22:21 |
| * DocScrutinizer51 afk. for fireworks | 22:23 | |
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