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| jonwil | Sicelo: ping | 02:55 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, so far my theory that thumb problem is because of buggy gcc seems true. gcc 4.6.2 recompiled Qt seems rock stable so far. I think to upload a link to .debs so brave souls could test. | 10:30 |
| freemangordon | size difference is 7.7 against 10.5 MB for libQtGui and 11.9 against 17.7 MB for libQtWebkit. | 10:41 |
| freemangordon | and that's with -O3, which results in a bigger binaries that -O2 or -Os | 10:41 |
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| Sicelo | jonwil: pong | 14:04 |
| jonwil | now I cant remember why I wanted to talk to you... | 14:05 |
| Sicelo | maybe reinstall off libconnui.. | 14:05 |
| jonwil | yeah possible | 14:05 |
| Sicelo | weird. widget was working fine the whole time. just started doing that after a reboot. | 14:06 |
| Sicelo | btw, i have gdb on device now (although, of course, i don't have a clue how to use it) | 14:07 |
| Sicelo | came with MADDE | 14:07 |
| jonwil | so you are having no issues whatsoever with the widget now? | 14:09 |
| Sicelo | yeah, fine for now | 14:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | MEH | 15:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | thanks for killing mermo | 15:43 |
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| RST38h | ??? | 15:43 |
| RST38h | Have I missed something, again? | 15:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | [2011-12-04 09:30:57] <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer, so far my theory that thumb problem is because of buggy gcc seems true. gcc 4.6.2 recompiled Qt seems rock stable so far. I think to upload a link to .debs so brave souls could test. | 15:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ten or twenty other guys looked into it and found thumb is riddled by SiERR, but nooo, freeman doesn't believe it. Prefers to provide thumb binaries "for test" rather than discussing the basic issue with those who should know more than he does. | 15:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | friggin netsplit | 15:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | ten or twenty other guys looked into it and found thumb is riddled by SiERR, but nooo, freeman doesn't believe it. Prefers to provide thumb binaries "for test" rather than discussing the basic issue with those who should know more than he does. | 15:53 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, well I tried. And the result was - "I won't tell you why, but it does not work". | 15:55 |
| freemangordon | And I am not buyng that | 15:56 |
| freemangordon | *buying | 15:56 |
| freemangordon | And if thumb compiled Qt,gtk,h-d and hildon-home (i.e. the most frequently executed code pieces) does not crash on several (or tenths) of devices for a month or so I will assume that stable. | 15:59 |
| RST38h | lemme ask a better question: what do you get from using thumb as opposed to arm32? | 16:00 |
| freemangordon | memory | 16:00 |
| freemangordon | and BTW it is thumb2 actually | 16:00 |
| freemangordon | does not have performance penalty | 16:01 |
| RST38h | Ok, so it takes less memory, indeed | 16:01 |
| freemangordon | Qt libraries are about 12 MB smaller | 16:01 |
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| freemangordon | memory, cache, less swapping... | 16:02 |
| RST38h | [shudder] what is the total size? | 16:02 |
| freemangordon | well, "size difference is 7.7 against 10.5 MB for libQtGui and 11.9 against 17.7 MB for libQtWebkit" | 16:02 |
| freemangordon | not checked other libs, but that should be more than enough | 16:03 |
| RST38h | holy fuck | 16:03 |
| RST38h | Doc: Have you considered the idea that GCC's backend might have been patched with respect to that errata? | 16:04 |
| freemangordon | and IF it is stable and IF all libs are thumb re-compiled then you can imagine the memory gain we will have | 16:04 |
| freemangordon | I can think of about 20-40 MB | 16:05 |
| freemangordon | right now i have 55MB swap which is unusual | 16:06 |
| freemangordon | RST38h, which errata? | 16:07 |
| freemangordon | will someone point me to some data at last, everyone is saying "that" errata. | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: I'm happy now you got no maintainer powers | 16:08 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, well seems everyone is happy, including me :D | 16:08 |
| freemangordon | But I fail to see how is that related to OMAP erratas | 16:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | RST38h: I already spent THREE hours reading thru errata and mostly talking to people who investigated all that the *right* way by actually understanding what's the nature of the problem and if and how it might get fixed - they all tell me it *can not* get fixed for our silicon. Now you suggest I invest more of my precious time for freemangordon's "I don't buy it"? MEH | 16:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually I did this 3h fancy just for freemangordon to find the details he's been too lazy to look/ask for | 16:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | as I already *knew* thumb is broken and deprecated | 16:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | on a hw level | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | now I have to learn it was all futile | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | and GODDAMNIT I knew better ways to save 20MB of RAM than messing with a deprecated proven defect CPU opcode | 16:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | e.g. locale | 16:16 |
| RST38h | Doc, not being able to fix something in silicon does not mean you cannot fix it in software | 16:16 |
| RST38h | In this case, you fix it by patching GCC backend not to produce offending instruction sequences | 16:16 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, you were the one to find one errata fixed in gcc | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | RST38h: thanks for informing me of this very new fact | 16:16 |
| RST38h | Have you considered this approach and checked the latest gcc changelist? | 16:16 |
| RST38h | Doc: Sorry for playing CptObvious =) | 16:17 |
| freemangordon | BTW gcc I am using was not used by "knowledgable guys" | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | RST38h: why didn't freemangordon do that? | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | I suggested to him to show where the known SiERR are attributed "FIXED by workaround" and I'd be interested again | 16:18 |
| RST38h | I have no idea. I also have no idea what the point in this conversation is. | 16:18 |
| RST38h | He has made whatever testing he has made and decided that his stuff is safe.He is going to release it as part of CSSU as I understand. | 16:19 |
| freemangordon | no | 16:19 |
| RST38h | If his stuff blows, we boo at him, he rolls it back, and everything is fine | 16:19 |
| freemangordon | :D | 16:19 |
| freemangordon | (nod) | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | FUCK NO WAY! | 16:19 |
| RST38h | So, Doc, why bitch? | 16:19 |
| RST38h | Does his stuff cause N900 to explode in fiery death? | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | CSSU is not experimental for weird "mad scientists" to do their mass studies | 16:20 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, i would't qualify myself as "mad scientist", why would you? | 16:21 |
| freemangordon | anyway, bb for now. bbl | 16:22 |
| RST38h | Anyway, gentlemen, before I leave this place for RL, why not stop this endless argument and do something pleasant for a change, like sacrificing a hamster to the Tentacled One? | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | because you don't listen to sound reasons and arguments, rather do exactly what's been explained to your (and generally accepted in real science) to be a nogo: basing assumptions on random testing ignoring the need of properly understanding the known available facts | 16:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | [2011-12-03 16:38:46] <DocScrutinizer> even when he came up with a whole Qt thumb build that uses 40% less mem footprint and runs fine on his device and system for days, we wouldn't want to touch it with a 10 ft pole | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | [2011-12-03 16:39:19] <DocScrutinizer> unless he came up with a *comprehensive* list of *all* silicon errata in 3430, and analyzed each single one of them and explained how his workaround is proven to deal with it so it won't cause anymore problems | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | RST38h: which is exactly the "look into gcc changelog" you suggested | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | or at least includes that action, not sure if it suffices | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | even if the SiERR were listed as "FIXED with version XY of gcc" we still had to check if that patch actually got verified or if just another mr freeman pushed those and nobody actually checked if they are effective | 16:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's not exactly easy to verify a gcc workaround fix for a SiERR like "problem: when conditional shortjump after flushing cache has a destination that's exactly the start of the N+2 4k page of code, this instruction will fail if it's a conditional OPcode that has negative result on condition. Workaround: have a redirect stub in N+3 page to jump there first, and from there jump to final destination" | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | (example made up) | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | but real SiERR are of same complexity | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | now TEST this to verify your compiler patch A) actually got implemented in a correct way that always works, and B) that the fix/workaround regarding CPU operation actually is effective | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | odds are you create MB of code and the offending situation isn't ever occurring in it | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | even if it is, you never know how often and when the execution time conditions are met so the potentially dangerous code actually triggers the error | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | and the icing on top: NOBODY literally NOBODY will be able to tell if it's been your defective "fix" that failed when eventually a user's dialer or H-D or whatever reboots out of a sudden | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | result: general image of CSSU/maemo becomes "unstable crap" | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | and NO WAY we are going to include sth like that into CSSU, based on a WFM basis | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | after Nokia and meego chief developers had extensive looks into it and all considered it broken or at very least too risky | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | pretty much reminds me at futile debates with OC-blockheads | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | RST38h: as well we could optimize out all mutex and spinlocks, claiming "it works for me" as you maybe never run into the races that may occur - but *somebody* will, pretty soon. And nobody would complain to us about "2 of the 7 reboots of last week were due to your missing spinlocks" | 16:48 |
| Raimu | Doing testing runs for that sort of an issue in a community where every, every new patch of every piece of software gets "battery drain started" or "random reboots started" bug reports... | 16:49 |
| Raimu | That sounds like bad form incarnate. | 16:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed, useless | 16:49 |
| Raimu | Especially when many people consider the device stable if their N900 does a random totally unexpected reboot even ONCE and WEEK. | 16:50 |
| Raimu | That is NOT stable. | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | again, exactly | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | now count in that same freemangordon blamed me about "wasting time on useless stuff, better do something actually useful" when I tried to sort the camera-ui issue by suggesting a picker to select default camera-ui | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | and we goddamn have other memory hogs that are WAY easier to kill, e.g locale, tracker, general preload of dog and cat | 16:53 |
| Raimu | That picker thing was more along "personal opinion" lines, I can see how it sometimes feels someone isn't focusing on what's important. | 16:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | where the risks are pretty obvious and manageable, and reports we'd see when something goes mayhem are specific and easy to attribute to a particular "fix" | 16:55 |
| Raimu | It's just this... bloody-minded centering on what is the desired outcome while conveniently ignoring potential hazards that irks me. | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 16:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ohwell, more snake oil to the masses | 16:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I *bet* they'll like it | 17:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | epitaph of maemo will be "awesome OS, awesome community, lots of brilliant apps and community driven solutions like overclocking, thumb bin size reduction, speed optimizer, zillion of applets. Could have been a success if only the hardware wasn't that crappy: slow, segfaults all the time, and CPU burns out after 4 weeks of intensive use" | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | oooh, forgot "unbearable standby time, way too small battery" | 17:04 |
| Raimu | Haha. That's mean. | 17:31 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, Raimu, let me tell you something. First of all I would *NOT* put anything into users devices marked as STABLE on WFM basis. Second (and that is what irritates me most) is that you are trying to tell me to not try it on my device because someone else has failed. Don't give a shit how famous those guys are. I need to check it. Not that I am going to push thumb compiled Qt in | 17:49 |
| freemangordon | CSSU tomorrow. And *IF* it is stable *THEN* I will check in gcc changelogs or wherever what and how has been fixed. It just does not make sense to spend a week reading documentation if the binary explodes in a minute. And i won't continue that discussion furter, as it is absolutely pointless. | 17:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | fair enough | 17:51 |
| Raimu | freemangordon: I'm not stopping you. I was actually rather optimistic about it until Doc here pasted a bunch of documents and conversations that pretty much made the case for me. | 17:54 |
| Raimu | freemangordon: It'd be wonderful if thumb actually worked instead of borked on the n900 hardware. I merely lost my "likelihood of this happening" spirit. | 17:55 |
| Raimu | freemangordon: And you seem very determined - still, from what I understand this type of glitch isn't the "binary explodes in a minute" variety but rather a bunch of sneaky, hard to trace error events in the long run. | 17:57 |
| freemangordon | Raimu, will you please point me to those documents , seems I've missed something (sorry DocScrutinizer, shit happens). I really apologize if that is the case. | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | just I never was " trying to tell [you] to not try it on my device because someone else has failed." I went OMGWTF when I read things like >> I think to upload a link to .debs so brave souls could test<< and >>He has made whatever testing he has made and decided that his stuff is safe.He is going to release it as part of CSSU as I understand. If his stuff blows, we boo at him, he rolls it back, and everything is fine <freemangordon> :D | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | (nod)<< | 17:59 |
| Raimu | freemangordon, sorry. I didn't keep a backlog. | 17:59 |
| Raimu | Maybe DocScrutinizer has them (and some patience still) to repaste them. | 18:01 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, what is the problem if someone wants to try it? | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | RST38h missed that when you're messing with Qt it will never be *your* stuff that blows, and nobody will open a ticket against this Qt thumbification | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | I wouldn't give a f*ck about any app built with thumb (unless it's an app like CSSU-modest supposed to be mandatory on a huge number of devices) | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | messing with Qt, HD, core components in general: whole different class of stuff | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | the tickets will never reach you, as nobody can tell acme-app actually broke because of a thumbified lib or whatever shared resource | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I don't even see any willingness to think about concepts to actually tackle *that* issue (validation in field, proper backtrace for occasional errors happening, testing strategy at large. WFM is NO testing strategy) | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | "let's assume there is no problem (ignoring the fact there are lots of indications there actually is one), and see what we get when we simply use it as if it always worked" is no feasible strategy either | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | your above sketched approach of first testing locally, then go to the *changelogs* - way better a strategy | 18:11 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, it's been less than 24 hours I've been able to set-up the new toolchain and you are asking for strategy. | 18:12 |
| freemangordon | If i have a single crash in a week then I will say here " I was proven wrong, I am stupid". But if there is no evidence of that I will google for as much info as possible. | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | sounds sane | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | no objections | 18:14 |
| freemangordon | That was my point all the time | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | sorry for getting you wrong then | 18:14 |
| freemangordon | See, I don't have any plans for pushing that into CSSU at least for the next 3 months. And I will try to push it in CSSU *ONLY* and *ONLY IF* there is no evidence that thumb causes crashes, i.e. devices running for 2-3 week without reboot and without a single application crash, erratas fixed, etc. Seems you reaaly got me wrong. | 18:19 |
| Raimu | Sorry from me too. | 18:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | I see hundereds if not thousands of users installing your "testing .deb for brave users", no 1337 luser will miss to install sth that's supposed to make his device more 1337, esp when it's attributed "DANGER! testing only! ONLY for *brave* users" | 18:29 |
| Lava_Croft | you guys want a laugh? | 18:30 |
| Lava_Croft | my washing machine beat my AKG headphones | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | and it's exactly those lusers that then go whining about "maemo is such a crap, reboots 5 times a day for me", while they conveniently ignore that they ignored the warnings all over on 70% of their installed pkgs | 18:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer | not saying we give a shit about those lusers' whining, but you won't see any useful bug reports from them, while they damage CSSU/maemo image | 18:31 |
| Raimu | Lava_Croft: In which contest? | 18:31 |
| freemangordon | Well, according to my experience re 720p and SR there are more than enough "good type" people willing to test new stuff. | 18:32 |
| Lava_Croft | an unplanned contest | 18:32 |
| Lava_Croft | seems fate wanted to see if they would survive a trip through the washing machine | 18:32 |
| Lava_Croft | at 75celsius | 18:32 |
| freemangordon | And the others are easy to be filtered out | 18:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: don't forget to keep an eye on dsme auto-restart counters, anyway | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | otherwise a lot of segfaults might go unnoticed | 18:35 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer: and lets not talk about CSSU's image, trust me, I am angry more than you on some recent developments ;) | 18:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok | 18:36 |
| freemangordon | and not so recent | 18:36 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, thank for the advice re restart counters, will use that | 18:37 |
| freemangordon | thanks* | 18:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: just to mention it, not saying it's mandatory or a particularly good idea: I occasionally built test versions of stuff that were intentionally missing features, had an expiration timer, or in any other way somehow made sure lusers won't keep them despite the beta state they're in | 18:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | helpdesk frequently sent me thanking notes for that | 19:01 |
| freemangordon | :) | 19:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | those users experienced enough to deal with the immanent problems of a beta are also capable of building a non-crippled version on their own. Alas usually some of them tend to publish it then | 19:06 |
| freemangordon | well, I don't think there are many n900 users who are able to build new toolchain in scratchbox. And we know all of them ;) | 19:08 |
| Lava_Croft | i for one like beta software and dont really mind shit breaking | 19:10 |
| Lava_Croft | but im not really going anywhere near compiling stuff | 19:10 |
| freemangordon | ok, lets wait for a week (or less if I come here saying "I am stupid"). | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't think investigating and double- and triple-checking stuff is stupid. If we wouldn't do that we'd not see any progress at all | 19:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | so maybe s/I'm stupid/I've been over-optimistic/ | 19:13 |
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| Lava_Croft | heh, hack | 20:47 |
| Lava_Croft | http://blog.makesyouhappy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/white_n900_03.jpg | 20:47 |
| Sicelo | looks nice. :)] | 20:52 |
| Sicelo | i remember someone on tmo changing their case | 20:52 |
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| arcean | merlin_1991: bugs #12085 #11974 #12445 fixed | 22:01 |
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