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| DocScrutinizer | a silly question: is (will be) mediaplayer part of CSSU, according to CSSU def to include no things that could go to extras? | 01:47 |
| thp | DocScrutinizer: afaik mediaplayer might be 'protected' because it's coming from nokia repos, so we might need to use the cssu repo if we want to replace that | 01:49 |
| thp | i.e. an extras repo can't replace a nokia-provided package for security reasons | 01:49 |
| thp | s/extras repo/package in extras/ | 01:50 |
| * DocScrutinizer scratches head, as there are plenty of mediaplayers. Just wondering what makes this one special (except of course MohammadAG's love) | 01:50 | |
| DocScrutinizer | that's not a proper rationale: "we need to include it into cssu, because we want to replace the stock one" | 01:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | the question is: why do we need to replace stock mediaplayer? | 01:53 |
| MohammadAG | portrait mode is enough reason imo | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | no way | 01:54 |
| MohammadAG | of course, when it offers the same functionality | 01:54 |
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| MohammadAG | yes way, if it's as stable | 01:54 |
| MohammadAG | which right now, it isn't | 01:54 |
| MohammadAG | no UPnP support is a blocker for example | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | so are you going to replace xterm, when you manage to get another one that can do pink-on-skyblue? | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | the foundation rule been: nothing goes to cssu that could as well go to extras(-*) | 01:56 |
| MohammadAG | no, but maybe skyblue on pink | 01:56 |
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| * DocScrutinizer starts feeling totally angry and pissed, and considers better starting his planned walk to the cosy night out there | 01:57 | |
| fatphil | OK, I'm new to all these discussions, but why is the nokia closed status important - can't you reverse engineer interfaces? | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | jus to finish on my post 2 above: and definitely nothing that could go extras will go cssu to kick stock stuff out for no reason but the mere "we did it" thrill | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | cya | 01:59 |
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| rantom | Hiya | 10:46 |
| rantom | I've just got a quick question : is there, by any chance, a chance to have "pages" from MeeGo's Applications list in Maemo5? | 10:48 |
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| thp | rantom: you mean have the application launcher icons "snap to page"? | 11:28 |
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| thp | rantom: there's http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63460 but it just arranges the icons paginated, it does not yet "snap to page" on scroll | 11:30 |
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| rantom | thp: Not quite | 11:40 |
| rantom | Hang on, I'll post a screenshot | 11:40 |
| rantom | thp: http://www.rantom.fi/meego/mg/sanity/1.1.99.7.20110513.4.DE.2011-05-17.1/001-portrait.png | 11:42 |
| rantom | Simply put : X amount of items for one page, then move to another one (e.g. 15, as it is now) | 11:43 |
| thp | rantom: well, that's basically it (just vertical instead of horizontal) and missing the snap-to-page as i said | 11:44 |
| rantom | Ah, so that's what snap-to-page meant | 11:45 |
| rantom | My bad :P | 11:45 |
| rantom | But it might/is/will/could be possible to add it to Maemo 5? | 11:45 |
| rantom | (That might though require rewriting to the Applications list editor too, since it doesn't work in portrait without forcing the rotation and it doesn't support folders nor pages) | 11:47 |
| myuu | wow somehow updating to CSSU | 11:51 |
| myuu | fixed a problem i was having with feedback on certain headphones | 11:51 |
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| fatphil | Is CSSU known for killing the battery? | 11:52 |
| fatphil | I'm down to 25h idle time now. | 11:53 |
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| psycho_oreos | I can't see how it would kill battery. | 12:11 |
| fatphil | I never really used that device before putting CSSU on it, so I don't have anything to compare too. | 12:12 |
| psycho_oreos | that could be your reason why. I've hardly seen mine using more battery than prior to installing CSSU, and I've been using my device literally everyday | 12:13 |
| fatphil | I'll do a powertop run of several hours as soon as it's charged again, that should highlight any bad boys in userspace. | 12:14 |
| Damnshock | fatphil: sometimes is not that simple ;) | 12:14 |
| fatphil | then I'll reflash the stock FIASCO again and compare. | 12:14 |
| psycho_oreos | using power kernel may also affect the performance | 12:15 |
| psycho_oreos | and any other tweaks/customisations you have setup | 12:15 |
| fatphil | Never used the power kernel (if I want a custom kernel, I'll build my own), and I have no customisations. | 12:16 |
| psycho_oreos | not even adjusting for instance the brightness display level? | 12:16 |
| fatphil | This was device idle. Screen off the whole time | 12:16 |
| fatphil | Damnshock - it's very hard for userspace to hide from powertop. I have an i2c sniffer too which can help identify who is behind the various I2C interrupts too. | 12:18 |
| psycho_oreos | my other guesses might be with constant checking of updates. CSSU has their own repository which may use up a bit more battery if anything | 12:18 |
| fatphil | no SIM, no WLAN. | 12:18 |
| Damnshock | fatphil: on my experience userspace is not usually what drains the battery | 12:18 |
| Damnshock | rather than some problem with a connection or whatever | 12:18 |
| Damnshock | on, no sim and no wlan | 12:19 |
| Damnshock | then you're right ;) | 12:19 |
| psycho_oreos | iirc the device on default setup would search for wireless networks and if there's any open ones it might randomly associate. Otherwise it would wait for the user to input the various password so that the device could login to the network | 12:20 |
| psycho_oreos | Unless of course you have blacklisted wl12xx :) | 12:21 |
| psycho_oreos | that's one ugly method, the other might be to just go through settings and disable it from there | 12:21 |
| fatphil | You can set teh settings to not automatically scan and connect to wlan | 12:21 |
| psycho_oreos | right which was what I said however should you have any open wireless networks nearby, the assumption of no wireless LAN would have been wrong. Otherwise if you set the settings to not automatically scan and connect to wireless LAN, you would have contradicted your saying of not customising your device :) | 12:23 |
| merlin1991 | oh lol | 12:24 |
| merlin1991 | going to some crappy exam in 2 hours | 12:24 |
| merlin1991 | there's supposed to be an example of it online | 12:24 |
| merlin1991 | only the link 404s | 12:24 |
| fatphil | Setting the "always ask" setting is not customisation, IMHO | 12:25 |
| psycho_oreos | either way I'll be interested on the results of your outcome if you: 1) don't actually have any open wireless networks nearby and that you do not take your device anywhere else, 2) maybe disable the automatic scanning/connecting of wireless LAN on both occasions of having CSSU installed and not having CSSU installed. | 12:25 |
| psycho_oreos | to me it is :) | 12:25 |
| psycho_oreos | any form of modification from the standard form, irregardless if its deemed as tailoring, personalising or even customising is still more or less the same because it is not completely original from manufacturer's form apart from the usage of CSSU and its repository | 12:27 |
| fatphil | It's a device I don't use, so I can happily reflash, install CSSU, etc. any number of times | 12:27 |
| Damnshock | what's the exam about merlin1991? | 12:28 |
| fatphil | psycho_oreos: so adding a single contact is customising? | 12:28 |
| Damnshock | wow, I wish I had a spare device | 12:28 |
| merlin1991 | Damnshock: sql :P | 12:28 |
| Damnshock | good luck with that merlin1991 | 12:28 |
| psycho_oreos | fatphil, yup | 12:28 |
| psycho_oreos | in other words I'll be looking forward to this proof of CSSU chewing up more battery than usual with scrutiny | 12:29 |
| fatphil | I've not made such a claim. It was worded as a question. | 12:31 |
| merlin1991 | fatphil: it would still be interesting to see the comparison | 12:32 |
| fatphil | I have no idea whether the base FIASCO I flashed onto it was what other people use anyway. | 12:32 |
| Damnshock | merlin1991: indeed | 12:32 |
| Damnshock | what I really would like to see though | 12:32 |
| merlin1991 | cssu changes quite a lot on the system level, so it could eat more battery | 12:32 |
| fatphil | OK, I'll try to be as scientific about is as possible. | 12:32 |
| Damnshock | is the ability to pipe the received email through an external program | 12:32 |
| Damnshock | xD | 12:32 |
| psycho_oreos | it wasn't phrased in one line as a claim :) it was more of the fact that you seem to indicate CSSU as being the only culprit as to why your device's usefulness being decreased | 12:32 |
| Damnshock | psycho_oreos: i did not read that | 12:33 |
| psycho_oreos | Damnshock, or you weren't following the coversation | 12:34 |
| psycho_oreos | he said apart from installing CSSU, he has not changed anything and so he could only get 25hr idle time | 12:34 |
| Damnshock | so what? | 12:34 |
| Damnshock | dude, what can come from anywhere | 12:34 |
| Damnshock | he said he is going to test if it comes from the CSSU | 12:35 |
| Damnshock | nothing else, nothing more | 12:35 |
| Damnshock | you are reading more than it is on his statements | 12:35 |
| Damnshock | as he already told you | 12:35 |
| fatphil | more than not changed anything - I didn't even use it before putting cssu on it. It's not a comparison before/after | 12:35 |
| psycho_oreos | Damnshock, more like reading between the lines | 12:36 |
| Damnshock | anywahy, there's probably something wrong because I can get far more than 25h of idle time | 12:36 |
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| Damnshock | even with a 2 years old battery | 12:36 |
| Damnshock | (almost) | 12:36 |
| Damnshock | <psycho_oreos> Damnshock, more like reading between the lines <--- then again: he already told you that was not his intention | 12:40 |
| psycho_oreos | Damnshock, intention of? | 12:41 |
| Damnshock | intention of indicating CSSU as being the only culprit of... blablablabla | 12:42 |
| Damnshock | it is a possibilty, ain't it? | 12:42 |
| Damnshock | might be not likely, but it still is a possibility | 12:42 |
| Damnshock | there's nothing wrong in checking | 12:42 |
| fatphil | The fact that nobody answered immediately "nope" implies that nobody's been paying that close attention to such things | 12:42 |
| fatphil | the fact that nobody answered "yup" implies that there's no evidence of a widespread problem likewise | 12:44 |
| merlin1991 | fatphil: agreed | 12:45 |
| psycho_oreos | Damnshock, I never said there was anything wrong with checking I'm just merely speculating on the possibilities of one noting the cause | 12:45 |
| fatphil | GIven that this device does almost nothing apart from sit on my desk, I'm much more likely to notice idle-time issues | 12:46 |
| fatphil | do you guys have pmtrackerd on your devices? | 12:48 |
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| lardman | Is there a CSSU category on the bugtracker? | 14:09 |
| merlin1991 | Yes | 14:09 |
| lardman | I think not, would it be useful? I see there is a thread on TMO which contains people moaning about CSSU bugs (or in many cases probably things that are nothing to do with CSSU) | 14:09 |
| merlin1991 | it's under extras | 14:09 |
| lardman | merlin1991: oh really, I must have missed it | 14:09 |
| merlin1991 | Maemo community | 14:09 |
| lardman | ah ok | 14:09 |
| merlin1991 | Cssu | 14:09 |
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| merlin1991 | thp: I'm trying to watch the that rabbit game youtube vid, but buffering doesn't really work @ U2 karlsplatz :P | 15:19 |
| thp | merlin1991: 3g or q/spot? | 15:26 |
| thp | merlin1991: although i think q/spot is resselpark only | 15:26 |
| merlin1991 | 3G :P | 15:29 |
| merlin1991 | It actually did work | 15:29 |
| merlin1991 | After I did reload the page :P | 15:29 |
| merlin1991 | Damnshock: sql exam turned out to be a real joke :P, one of the most easy ones so far | 15:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I have standby times like >25h here - WITH wlan, WITH xchat monitoring #maemo* and some other chan, and WITH GSM registered so I can get called every time | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | obviously on cssu - 1.3.3.7-7 | 16:38 |
| fatphil | I've removed pmtrackerd, which I suspect was part of the problem, and am now full charged. I'll wait for 'pew's... | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | hehe, pmtrackerd - nice | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | IroN900:~# powertop | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | Powertop 1.13.3 | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | status: Unknown job: pmtrackerdaemon | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's considered "normal" | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | what's that i2c-tracker you mentioned, fatphil ? | 16:44 |
| fatphil | kernel patch | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | cooool | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | is it configurable? | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | as then we'd probably like it to go to PK | 16:45 |
| fatphil | I'm not sure if I can release it, as I did it during billable hours. I'll ask my boss | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | hehe | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok :-) | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | your boss will get free advertisment in the (C) notice ;-) | 16:47 |
| fatphil | I think Nokia are already mentioned, aren't they? | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | sponsoring almost always pereived rather positive in community, no mater how 'big' | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | they are, for the good as for the bad ;-) | 16:49 |
| fatphil | :-// | 16:49 |
| fatphil | ^ selotape over the mouth | 16:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | ouch, that hurts ;-D | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're probably free to do a 'similar' project in your leisure time | 16:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's not really rocket science to patch the kernel | 16:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | you just had to do it "in a cleanroom" - I can see that'S not very tempting a leisure activity ;) | 16:53 |
| fatphil | Is CSSU stuck at 2.6.28? | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | nuttin we can do about it | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | except binnin whole maemo and rewriting it from scratch | 16:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | we are missing ~30% sources so we could recompile on recent kernels - a HUGE PITA | 16:54 |
| fatphil | :-// | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, we somewhat "learned to live with it", backporting kernel patches to powerkernel, and taking 2.6.26maemo as an invariant | 16:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | 28* | 16:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | really annoying: meego is on 2.6.34++ now, so no more direct compatibility | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | e.g maemo doesn't profit from the maemo mce sources getting disclosed for meego, as Nokia decided to "update" to new kernel *prior* to disclosing it | 17:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's as I understand it | 17:00 |
| fatphil | If I remember the innards of the MCE architecture, the kernel dependency is absolutely minimal | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | possibly | 17:01 |
| fatphil | strings and strace should tell you everything you want to know | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm not saying it's major problem for mce particularly, more I want to show a basic issue | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | constant source of mild annoyance, related to maemo being tied to 2.6.28 | 17:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | we can cope with all that, just it's so odd some way | 17:03 |
| fatphil | Hmmmm, if I'm bored I might try flashing a more modern kernel and seeing what goes wrong | 17:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | \o/ | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | words of a truly great man | 17:04 |
| fatphil | I've not achieved anything yet. | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're rising mood to the better here, wiith a few lines of posting | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | we can use that, a lot of it | 17:06 |
| fatphil | ug. comparing defconfigs won't be fun... | 17:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 17:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | [2011-05-31 11:48:19] <mrmoku> Configuring kernel-module-musb-hdrc. | 17:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | [2011-05-31 11:48:19] <mrmoku> FATAL: Module musb_hdrc not found. | 17:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | [2011-05-31 11:48:32] <mrmoku> that probably is your usbnet problem | 17:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | is what you're facing when trying to get recent kernels to N900 | 17:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | NB not for maemo | 17:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's : http://shr-project.org and those pals are rather good at getting sth running on N900 | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | uuhm a lil bit OT here | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | realy nice guys, if you want to have a short chat about things like defconfig - /join #openmoko-cdevel, just ask | 17:13 |
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| fatphil | you don't need to be dour here, it's those inside nokia who should be dour: http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:NOK | 17:19 |
| fatphil | What's the identifier of the FIASCO everyone uses? | 17:20 |
| fatphil | as in a week & build identifier? | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | moment please | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil: http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin | 17:24 |
| fatphil | OK, I have a 36-2 RD to hand | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | should be recent | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil: (dour) we try to not be - yeah NOK :-S | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | most baffling thing: there's been nothing worse than a simple >>Nokia to Support Symbian System During Shift to Windows, Chief Elop Says [Bloomberg - May 27, 2011]<< | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | so maybe -15% is completely unrelated, I'm not much into stock exchange obscurities | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, Q2 outlook published/adjusted | 17:35 |
| RST38h | Hmmm, with the new CSSU, the status bar has got some garbage | 17:37 |
| RST38h | Every time I run an application, the title bar is covered with a bit of garbage | 17:38 |
| RST38h | modest-home-applet is gone again | 17:40 |
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| fatphil | arse, the only spare hardware I have is too old, and unsupported by 36-2. I'll need to visit the office... | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil: you're making my day | 17:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | really encouraging to see somebody with a clue and access to unspecified but undoubtedly promising resources is caring about maemo-cssu | 17:47 |
| RST38h | Doc: Let the guy phantasize a bit :) | 17:48 |
| fatphil | I've got a rx51_defconfig from Jun 2010 here ... | 17:50 |
| fatphil | I can try a kernel build with that | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, here should be a couple of users who know a lot more about defconfig (esp for rx51) than I do - MohammadAG lcuk Jaffa come to mind | 17:53 |
| fatphil | That defconfig will probably not work, as it's got GPIO configuration changes, and there's no way to change NOLO | 17:54 |
| fatphil | I wish Nokia had just released a completely open device :-( | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | got GPIO changes?? o.O | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil: we're all on same page wrt that :-D | 17:56 |
| fatphil | See, IIRC, Jani Nikula vs. Dmitry Torokhov on the linux-input mailing list, regarding GPIO changes. | 17:57 |
| fatphil | The single best thing about Nokia is that they have the "upstream first" policy regarding kernel development. | 17:57 |
| fatphil | So if you want to know what nokia are working on, just read lkml, linux-omap, linux-input, linux-usb, linux-mtd etc... | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed - the more a pity a relatively sane driver (c) Nokia didn't make it upstream as there's already some botch occupying the field there - see lis302dl.ko (vs lis3lv02.ko) | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's however a general linux/FOSS problem it seems to me | 18:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | not Nokia's fault | 18:01 |
| fatphil | I disagree with upstream regarding the architecture for those hwmon drivers | 18:03 |
| fatphil | They work on the policy that if the module's loaded it should be polling constantly. | 18:03 |
| fatphil | which doesn't work on an embedded system | 18:04 |
| fatphil | Felipe Balbi pretty much completely rewrote that module one weekend as it was a mess. | 18:04 |
| fatphil | His patches are lost for ever :-( | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil: my exact words on this topic :-D | 18:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | polling on an embedded device that supports IRQ correctly is insane and really poor a concept | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, polling is *generally* a poor concept | 18:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | no matter which platform and which level of the API | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | on embedded it's fatal though, while on servers you may get away with it, unnoticed | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | and obviously there's a difference between a battery-state applet polling /sys/foo/bar once a minute, and a kernel module polling a chip @ 100/s | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | nevertheless the concept of polling is always last resort, if you're out of ideas how to implement things in a more smart way | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | on a general rule if the hardware can do without polling, you better find a way for your software using that hw is doing without polling as well | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | I always thought that'S plain obvious and best common sense | 18:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | seems I'm mistaken | 18:16 |
| fatphil | Most things were finally done right though. The kernel's power management team have done an astonishingly good job. | 18:21 |
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| fatphil2 | Indeed, rx51_defconfig doesn't even build. Hmmm, revert or bisect? | 18:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | rx51_defconfig with upstream kernel? I'm a noob about those things, but I think that'S doomed to fail | 18:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil2: not that *I* would understand exactly what's it all about ;-) but maybe http://h-e-n.garage.maemo.org/ SCM has some hints about defconfig | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | e.g https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/ggit/browse.php/?p=h-e-n;a=commit;h=a78d411c6518eb7dd038eef6668f78a7e6c14ec4 find defconfig (bear with me, I admit I have no clue at all) | 18:38 |
| fatphil2 | OK, that's something I can check out too. | 18:46 |
| fatphil2 | note that one shouldn't do versioning of .config, as that's a target file. the defconfig is what you should be modifying and diffing. | 18:48 |
| fatphil2 | At least my 1st hiccup is passed with a very simple patch. I'm sure there will be many more | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/ggit/browse.php/?p=h-e-n;a=commit;h=b0b39cbb5eae6b5094d225985fb474a7b328e9d2 | 18:49 |
| fatphil2 | I've not flashed a kernel onto the n900 for ages, I'm not sure I can remember how to do it! | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil2: PaulFertser knows his way around for all I can tell, and I'm confident he did the right thing. If you find anything fishy, I'm happy to ask him about it | 18:50 |
| fatphil2 | eww, that's definitely fishy. | 18:50 |
| fatphil2 | does he hang around here? | 18:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil2: that's what he said as well, many times. This is based on powerkernel and that'S known to do some odd things regarding maintenance/git | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | paul was swearing quite a bit when trying to get stuff up and running the way he likes things to be | 18:52 |
| fatphil2 | who's the actual kernel maintainer? does he have a public git tree? | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | but honestly, I have not even a faint clue about all that | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil2: of which kernel? | 18:52 |
| fatphil2 | good question | 18:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | the h-e-n kernel got discontinued and patches are integrated to powerkernel | 18:53 |
| fatphil2 | so powerkernel is what you're running with then? | 18:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | powerkernel been orphaned for several months, I'm unsure who's maintaining it now - if anybody | 18:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes | 18:53 |
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| fatphil2 | Does CSSU ship with with the powerkernel, or are the upgrades independent of each other? | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | afaik powerkernel is maintained in a non-git way | 18:54 |
| fatphil2 | ewwww | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | ask MohammadAG | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm ignorant of those bits | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | afaikt cssu is based on stock kernel | 18:55 |
| fatphil2 | OK, good to know. I haven't done a dpkg -l to see what it contains. | 18:56 |
| ThreeM | runs also on powerkernel | 18:56 |
| ThreeM | hm | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, it shouldn't really care about kernel | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | aiui | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | cssu are mainly fixes to some hildon stuff etc | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | plus of course apps | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | core apps | 18:57 |
| fatphil2 | Good. Too many dependencies are a bad thing | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | things like audio etc | 18:57 |
| fatphil2 | Hahah - my next build failure is because of a patch that has my Acked-by! | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | hehe | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're ok with "how to flash kernel" now? | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are two ways: easy one via flasher-3.5 with some parameters, and a SSU way that's so tricky I never wrapped my head around it | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | again MohammadAG should know details | 19:01 |
| fatphil2 | I used some internal tools. I no longer have them, but I can get them again. | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | no need for | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | flasher-3.5 works just great | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | but take care about modules ;-) | 19:02 |
| fatphil2 | The tools were a wrapper around flasher | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | I see | 19:03 |
| fatphil2 | I'll not flash this, I'll boot from RAM with an initrd | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | fair enough | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | flasher can do this | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | not exactly initrd but aiui mere loading of kernel to ram, rather than flashing it | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Using_Rescue_Initrd might have some small hints about it | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | >> NOTE: Here we do not flash the kernel [or initrd to the device, but only load them to the device memory during the boot. Original images are restored when the device is restarted. ] | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | -k is the key it seems | 19:08 |
| * DocScrutinizer idly wonders if multiboot abomination could do this, instead of flashing kernel on each boot. Not that multiboot is needed at all anymore in times of properly working uBoot | 19:11 | |
| DocScrutinizer | multiboot - such a brilliant nasty hack, abused by nitdroid in a manner that earned it flames for doing sth it probably never been meant to do | 19:13 |
| fatphil2 | multiboot looks pretty cool, | 19:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer | multiboot is a cool hack | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | but it tends to mess up system for ignorant users | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | obviously a concept of flashing kernel during each boot doesn't comply exactly with usual ways to update kernel | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | the worst thing about it: if it does, you're back to a rootfs+kernel reflash | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | usual diagnose: kernel doesn't match modules -> bootloop -> you have to reflash | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | recover other than reflash is difficult at best, usually mere impossible | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | standard user quote: "I installed nitdroid, then I installed powerkernel, now device does bootloop. HLP PLZZZ!" | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/installed powerkernel/updated to new powerkernel/ | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are an arbitrary number of variations to the theme ;-) | 19:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | one of the more popular ones: "I unistalled nitdroid, now device bootlops" | 19:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | a funny one: "I uninstalled powerkernel, now doesn't boot anymore" | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | (not multiboot related :-D ) | 19:34 |
| lardman | what does uninstalling powerkernel actually do though? | 19:35 |
| lardman | presumably it should put back the original kernel | 19:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it doesn't | 19:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm not sure what it does, but I think uninstalling a kernel can't that easily trigger installation of another one | 19:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | probably an apt thing, about the way uninstalling works | 19:42 |
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| lardman | sure | 19:42 |
| lardman | just thinking that as installing it overwrites the existing one, it would be good to be able to uninstall it and get the original back | 19:43 |
| lardman | or simply not be able to uninstall it | 19:43 |
| lardman | I found the whole power kernel installation rather opaque - i was worried about which components did what, and I do pretty much know what I'm doing | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed, forbidding uninstall seems a sane thing to do | 19:44 |
| lardman | or provide an original kernel package that can be installed and uninstall the power kernel stuff perhaps | 19:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | that's the recommended way | 19:45 |
| lardman | oh I didn't realise there was one | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | seems PK howto is telling exactly that - even the warning you have to click OK when installing PK says it iirc | 19:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer | lardman: ponder that: pk pkg doesn't know what's been your "previous kernel", so there is no sane way to revert to the previous state by "uninstalling" | 19:48 |
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| fatphil2 | looks like meego have a 2.6.35 kernel for n900. I wonder if that's a good starting point? | 19:52 |
| fatphil2 | though 2.6.35 isn't long term support, is it? | 19:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | no idea. What I seem to know is meego-kernel is missing quite some maemo-specific bits, which are making for the smoother over-all experience on maemo, and the main issue are incompatibilities between the kernel APIs | 19:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | again look at lis3lv02 in meego. I bet there are a couple more of that class | 19:56 |
| MohammadAG | 2.6.37 in MeeGo iirc | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | hey MohammadAG \o/ | 19:58 |
| MohammadAG | heya DocScrutinizer | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: can you help out answering a few more of those questions to fatphil2 ? | 19:59 |
| wmarone | Some of the IVI ARM things are using 2.6.35, so it is a valid kernel (just FYI) | 19:59 |
| MohammadAG | Sure :) | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | fine, as I'm partially utterly ignorant on that | 20:00 |
| fatphil2 | dang, nothing I used to use works any more! I will need to visit the office and get access to my old PC... | 20:07 |
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| MohammadAG | defconfigs, right | 20:12 |
| fatphil2 | A better way to look at the issue is to ask "is the current kernel broken", and not change it unless it is. | 20:12 |
| MohammadAG | MeeGo went through 2.6.32 to 38 afaik | 20:12 |
| MohammadAG | all of them booted on the N900 | 20:12 |
| MohammadAG | so their defconfigs should work fine, for basic stuff | 20:12 |
| fatphil2 | Note - that '.config' issue I highlighted earlier is a real one. | 20:13 |
| MohammadAG | .config? | 20:13 |
| MohammadAG | (sorry, I was away, studies) | 20:13 |
| fatphil2 | .config has been put under version control, which is a bad thing | 20:13 |
| fatphil2 | https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/ggit/browse.php/?p=h-e-n;a=commit;h=b0b39cbb5eae6b5094d225985fb474a7b328e9d2 | 20:14 |
| MohammadAG | kernel-power got a git tree as of v47 afaik | 20:14 |
| MohammadAG | the new maintainer does stuff The Right Way (TM), at least with sources | 20:14 |
| fatphil2 | OK. That's good. | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's nice to hear | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: who's this new maintainer? | 20:16 |
| MohammadAG | oh, so .config wasn't cleaned from sources, damn | 20:16 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, pali, he's had some CSSU patches | 20:16 |
| MohammadAG | I could link you, but I'm on the N900 in a 2G area, opening tmo won't be fun | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | np | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | no need for that right now | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: all fine with your exams? | 20:18 |
| fatphil2 | do you have a giturl for kernel-power? | 20:18 |
| MohammadAG | yep, I'm pretty much done for a week or two | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil2: not me | 20:18 |
| * MohammadAG attempts to flip to 3G | 20:18 | |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: stay with us!!! :-P | 20:19 |
| MohammadAG | 3/4 bars are good enough I guess | 20:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | :-) | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: ping | 20:21 |
| * lcuk looks suspiciously at DocScrutinizer | 20:21 | |
| lcuk | whasup? | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: your expertise would be appreciated, if you got no other pressing things to do | 20:22 |
| MohammadAG | git clone http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/kernel-power.git | 20:22 |
| lcuk | expertise in what? | 20:22 |
| MohammadAG | from http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71879 | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | just see if you feel like commenting :-) | 20:22 |
| * lcuk is busy working | 20:22 | |
| DocScrutinizer | aah, ok | 20:22 |
| lcuk | hi fatphil2, spotted you earlier pottering about, did you get an image sorted for your machine? | 20:23 |
| fatphil2 | lcuk: The only spare hardware I have lying around currently can't be flashed as it's not supported any more by flasher. I'll have to wait until I've finished some pm tests on another device, and use that. | 20:35 |
| fatphil2 | so I have an image, I just can't flash it yet | 20:35 |
| MohammadAG | flash it on device | 20:36 |
| MohammadAG | unless you want to load it | 20:36 |
| fatphil2 | It doesn't have a suitable bootloader | 20:36 |
| fatphil2 | ewww. the patches in kernel-power aren't patches to the kernel, they're patches to debian's package. | 20:38 |
| MohammadAG | he picked up the old source | 20:38 |
| MohammadAG | and that had patches in debian/patches (quilt) | 20:38 |
| fatphil2 | wouldn't it have made sense to just apply the patches one by one and commit at each step? | 20:40 |
| fatphil2 | could probably be scripted. | 20:40 |
| * MohammadAG agrees, but that's how he picked it up I guess | 20:40 | |
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| fatphil2 | Ug. Do people build in scratchbox? | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 20:43 |
| fatphil2 | bleh | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | hahaha | 20:43 |
| MohammadAG | heh | 20:43 |
| fatphil2 | my scratchbox is totally fucked | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | isn't it that way from day one? ;-D | 20:44 |
| fatphil2 | It did work on and off for several months | 20:44 |
| MohammadAG | what's the problem? | 20:44 |
| fatphil2 | I'm configured for Harmattan | 20:44 |
| fatphil2 | and at that, I'm misconfigured | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | eeew err | 20:45 |
| MohammadAG | oh | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | well | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | restore a backup ;-) | 20:45 |
| fatphil2 | My g/f has a Fremantle scratchbox though. | 20:45 |
| fatphil2 | Is there a way to just apply the patches, and not do the build? | 20:46 |
| MohammadAG | check debian/rules | 20:47 |
| MohammadAG | QUILT_PATCHES=debian/rules quilt push I think | 20:47 |
| MohammadAG | just check debian/rules though, not that fluent in quilt | 20:47 |
| fatphil2 | never used it. never needed to use it. bleh | 20:49 |
| MohammadAG | it's the debian way of shipping patches without changing upstream source | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | it feels somewhat like "duh, I don't need that any second time" | 20:56 |
| fatphil2 | If you're using a git repository, you're not changing upstream source | 20:56 |
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| MohammadAG | fatphil2, the old maintain3r never used git properly | 20:58 |
| MohammadAG | maintainer*, damn hildon-input-method | 20:59 |
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| fatphil2 | Ah, it's not a kernel git repository anyway. | 21:01 |
| fatphil2 | It seems to presume you have a kernel source tree somewhere else, apparently | 21:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer | fatphil2: that's what I got about it as well, yes | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil2: and what PaulFertser tried to deal with and "fix" in h-e-n SCM | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | finaly fixing this abomination of powerkernel maintenance for good surely would be appreciated by a few people | 21:09 |
| fatphil2 | The problem is that kenel devs (like me) just want to use git, and not worry about packaging. But distributions only care about packages. Either someone budges, or you stick a packaging layer in between the two. | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 21:12 |
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| lcuk | fatphil2, that is historically the way indeed | 21:42 |
| lcuk | make the changes you need, put them into git repository, advertise whereabouts and let distributions handle the rest would be ideal | 21:42 |
| lcuk | is your proto a pretty one or ugly shell version? | 21:43 |
| fatphil | lcuk - do you know what tag the quilt patches are based on? | 21:44 |
| fatphil | For the released products I have the real thing. | 21:45 |
| lcuk | fatphil, was just wondering with you mentioning builds and flasher versions etc | 21:45 |
| lcuk | and no, I don't even know which kernel you are hacking on | 21:45 |
| lardman | DocScrutinizer: sorry for the slow reply: re previous kernel - yeah, but it should at least the device in a workable state either by agreement for where to store old kernel or simply by assuming the vanilla version | 21:45 |
| fatphil | same one that everyone posting to lkml with an @nokia.com address is working on | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | lardman: only sane way I see is to disable uninstalling of kernels | 21:47 |
| MohammadAG | or to flash the stock kernel in prerm | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: you ever tested that? | 21:52 |
| lardman | prevent uninstalling, but allow new ones to be installed | 21:52 |
| lardman | though then you end up with left over kernel modules | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | exactly | 21:53 |
| lardman | really something should depend on the package, something that can't be removed | 21:53 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, no, but flashing is done in postinst so | 21:53 |
| MohammadAG | no reason for it not to work in prerm | 21:53 |
| lardman | anyway, deb packaging magic is a pita ;) | 21:53 |
| * lardman heads back to the TV, bbl | 21:54 | |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: I see problems with module dependency | 21:54 |
| MohammadAG | how so? | 21:55 |
| MohammadAG | afaik modules load from /lib/modules/$(uname -r) | 21:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | that'd be nice, if only we could rely on it, and also on proper matching /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/* being installed (just think "not enough storage") | 22:00 |
| MohammadAG | if exit code is 1, don't remove the kernel | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever you do, you can't handle another package thus important and elementary as kernel/modules from a random prerm in any failsafe manner | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's my 2 cents | 22:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12 2009-10-30 12:32 /lib/modules/current -> 2.6.28-omap1 | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're sure about that $(uname -r) thing? | 22:07 |
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| MohammadAG | yes, at least on my system | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | a system might even have dependencies that forbid indiscriminately installing another kernel | 22:11 |
| MohammadAG | can't be done, you'd flash directly with flasher | 22:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's not a sane way to install a new kernel when user decides to do sth he's not supposed to do - uninstalling a kernel | 22:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | mere exiting with a "WTF?!" message when trying to uninstall a kernel should be all that's needed to deal with this | 22:13 |
| MohammadAG | I wonder what debian does | 22:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: deinstalled your server kernel? | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-P | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | wait, doesn't apt have some --simulate-it flag? | 22:40 |
| fatphil | doesn't andre__ work with these things? | 22:52 |
| andre__ | maybe andre instead of andre__ :) | 22:53 |
| fatphil | Haven't you dealt with packaging? | 22:54 |
| andre__ | fatphil, no? | 22:55 |
| andre__ | I like bugs though, for breakfast! | 22:55 |
| fatphil | I'm sure you've filed bugs that were to do with packaging | 22:55 |
| andre__ | I want proof! ;-) | 22:55 |
| andre__ | well, might be... when I'm drunk I do funny things sometimes, my friends say. | 22:56 |
| fatphil | You've filed ones about dependencies, at least. | 22:57 |
| fatphil | which we closed as invalid! | 22:58 |
| fatphil | However, "forwarding from b.m.o" implies that you were just the messenger | 22:59 |
| andre__ | fatphil, got one bug ID? | 23:00 |
| fatphil | 206478 and 167483 are to do with dependencies | 23:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | 2011-05-31 21:50:23] <keks-n> I've got a reboot loop [2011-05-31 21:50:28] <keks-n> with kernel power [2011-05-31 21:50:48] <keks-n> It booted perfectly with multiboot before [2011-05-31 21:51:09] <keks-n> But I've removed multiboot and installed kernel-power and kernel-power-flasher | 23:04 |
| * DocScrutinizer headdesks | 23:04 | |
| * DocScrutinizer headdesks a lil bit longer | 23:05 | |
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| andre__ | fatphil, well, that's internal Nokia stuff. I rather expected something maemo related. | 23:09 |
| andre__ | I don't really care about what Nokia screws up internally. | 23:09 |
| fatphil | I've only ever seen your name in the context of nokia internal stuff. | 23:09 |
| andre__ | fatphil, you can see my name a bit more often in bugs.maemo.org and bugs.meego.com I hope. | 23:10 |
| fatphil | I've not had any reason to look there. | 23:11 |
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| andre__ | I see. | 23:13 |
| Arkenoi | Weird, now i cannot update anything via app manager. It says "Not enough space in application install memory". wtf is "application install memory"? I have plenty of space in all filesystems. | 23:14 |
| fatphil | Someone needs to get aptitude working (interactive part, that is) | 23:16 |
| Arkenoi | Is there any known quick fix? | 23:16 |
| fatphil | can you use apt-get instead? | 23:17 |
| fatphil | (or aptitude's command line) | 23:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | andre__: isn't this flattering you do a job so good that nobody needs to leave nb tracker ;-) | 23:18 |
| andre__ | DocScrutinizer, errm... No. ;-) | 23:18 |
| andre__ | DocScrutinizer, it's a pity that the video of my talk at MeeGo conf Dublin is not online. | 23:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed, I'd be interested in it for sure | 23:19 |
| * Arkenoi is going to try apt-get upgrade, hope nothing will break | 23:19 | |
| andre__ | but http://people.gnome.org/~aklapper/meego-conference2010/slides-bugmanaging.pdf slide 7 describes the mindset of some internal Nokia people quite well | 23:20 |
| fatphil | Internal nokia people range from black to white, there's no way you can classify us! | 23:20 |
| andre__ | fatphil, "some" I wrote. | 23:21 |
| andre__ | but I certainly got a list of people I'd love to see fired immediately because of how much time they waste discussing crap with me. | 23:21 |
| andre__ | instead of getting work done. | 23:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | fatphil: that's obvious and a usual mistake made on each side | 23:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | when I', swearing about Nokia I'm for sure not shooting @ all, but at a particular aspect as perceived "on the outside" | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | same way when andre__ says "some" he clearly doesn't include *@nokia | 23:26 |
| andre__ | I also have good experience with some Nokians. Mostly the subcontractors that understand open source though, instead of the code monkeys that just want to get paid for writing some hackish code that kind of works and try to close every bug report as quickly as possible to reduce their workload. | 23:27 |
| fatphil | I have much to say about nokia obviously, but ... :-// | 23:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | let's just stop this, as otherwise I'm prone to "act erratically" once more :-) | 23:28 |
| andre__ | haha | 23:29 |
| lcuk | DocScrutinizer, that is my department | 23:29 |
| lcuk | I even have a note on the wall about it. | 23:29 |
| lcuk | :| | 23:29 |
| fatphil | andre__ - on the idea of a 'fired immediately' list, I'd run out of paper ... | 23:29 |
| andre__ | ehehe | 23:29 |
| fatphil | This IRC channel's archived, isn't it? | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | /topic | 23:30 |
| fatphil | Do I shouldn't say things like "there are enough guns and gun nuts in Finland, I can't believe no-one's taken a pot shot at Elop yet" | 23:30 |
| fatphil | The last asehullu whackjob in Finland was a Nokia employee | 23:30 |
| fatphil | Do=So | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed it's probably no good idea to say that ;-) | 23:31 |
| andre__ | it's archived, I think. however I say anyway what I want to say. | 23:31 |
| fatphil | I'm reminded of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEQOvyGbBtY | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL | 23:35 |
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| * DocScrutinizer has strange fantasies of cops wearing a t-shirt: if you say <120PT>PLEASE SOMEBODY KILL THE U.S. PRESIDENT</120PT> then I'll have to arrest you | 23:38 | |
| fatphil | :-D | 23:42 |
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