IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2020-12-06

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CatButtswhere can I find list of key names to use in rx-51?00:55
CatButtsalso, I hope it's not sensitive to tab->space conversion00:55
MaxdamantusThis is what I use, which should cover all ASCII keycodes, if that's what you mean:
Maxdamantusall printable ASCII keycodes.00:58
CatButtsah, gracias00:59
CatButtsthe names are case sensitive, right?00:59
MaxdamantusI would expect so.00:59
MaxdamantusBecause otherwise you wouldn't be able to distinguish between `a` and `A`00:59
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CatButtsI wish it were convenient to change the layout printed on the keys01:02
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CatButtsthat is, diy keypad01:04
jonwilIts official. The USB port on my N900 has finally died. Getting it fixed is likely to be pretty much impossible here in Brisbane (01:05
MaxdamantusI kind of wish the Linux keyboard driver distinguished between the two space keys.01:05
jonwilTime to find a new phone...01:06
Maxdamantusjonwil: do you at least have u-boot installed?01:06
jonwilThe problem isn't being able to talk to it, its the charging.01:06
jonwilIt works and the phone is currently up and running01:07
Paliyou can charge battery externally01:07
jonwilI do have an external battery charger but the phone is dying in other ways as well and its time to look to replace it.01:07
MaxdamantusIsn't it possible to just wire directly to some of the pads under the battery?01:07
jonwilThe screen is not what it used to be.01:07
jonwilKeyboard keys are all comming off and going missing.01:07
jonwilOh and the cellmo is flaky (with it switching to the dreaded "no sim" icon sometimes)01:08
sunshaviCatButts: hablas castellano?01:09
jonwilAs much as I like my N900, I think its time to consider what comes next.01:09
CatButtssunshavi: nein01:09
sunshavilol ok01:10
jonwilI doubt I could get all the problems fixed in a way that makes economic sense.01:10
CatButtskey <AD01>  { [ q,         Q,          1,          F1          ] };01:11
CatButtsthe 4th collumn is the two keys on bottom left pressed, yes?01:11
sunshavijonwil: no great alternatives out there01:11
MaxdamantusCatButts: yes.01:12
MaxdamantusI only use that for backtick myself.01:12
jonwilRight now I will use my other phone (a cheap cheap Android thing I picked up last time my N900 had issues) while I figure out what my next device will be.01:13
CatButtsin a paralel universe, n900 has tiny joystick like the Sony Ericsson K750 in place of the directional keys01:13
sunshaviafter modem died. I am using a moto razor :)01:13
sunshaviBut I miss all the integration I got with n900. At least moto razor gives me 4d of battery life. And answering phone calls is very simple :)01:14
jonwil3G wont be around forever either.01:16
sunshaviBTW. the moto razor has j2me inside. I have done an app for sending by bluetooth an sms from phone to workstation.01:17
CatButtsj2me has some neat jewels floating around01:17
sunshavijonwil: Right. nokia is not out there also. The future is grey01:17
sunshaviCatButts: like which ones?01:17
CatButtsopera mini mod(web-centric mini os), vibe mod(midi sequencer), minicommander, keepass j2me port01:19
sunshaviI think something like j2me should be done on C. for giving a boost on creating your own tools on n900 or any future phone with proper-lunix01:19
sunshavimmm. browser is not working. for me. Needs a kind of setup01:19
sunshaviso i do not have internet conn on it :(01:19
CatButtsoh, someone was insane enough to make a j2me IDE, on j2me01:20
sunshavicatbutts: awesome01:21
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sunshavimy main workstation is ARM. for doing j2me development i should turn on my x220. The preverifier does not work on arm-lunix01:23
sunshavicatbutts: I am going to install it and see01:25
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jonwilThe way I see it, I can go 3 ways here. First is to track down a used new-to-me N900 and replace with that (but that's not the easiest thing and it doesn't give me any future-proofing as 3G goes away and more and more web sites don't work properly on N900. Second is to buy something like a librem5 that's built to be open source (although those are probably expensive and not necessarily...01:26
jonwil...fully-baked software wise). And the third is to buy a more mainstream phone from someone that is at least able to run unsigned code, no bootloader locks etc.01:26
jonwilI dont think I can find another phone with a physical keyboard though.01:26
CatButts this seems like a nice compromise01:27
sunshaviRight. pinephone with maemo-leste courd be great. But they are not ready yet.01:27
CatButtsbut it will chew your battery, the keyboard's battery, and will be for few phones01:27
jonwilI wonder if the librem5 is any good.01:29
jonwilOh wait, that's not for sale yet...01:29
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jonwilI will say this though, there is no way in HELL I am going to use anything from crApple (you couldn't pay me to use an iFail)01:30
sunshavicatbutts: it is a big file01:33
sunshavii have just jailbroken an ipod touch 4th01:33
sunshaviBut even jailbroken when you open ifile it asks permissions to crapple servers01:34
jonwilLooks like the Linux phones just aren't there right now.01:34
jonwillibrem5 is not for sale.01:34
CatButtswhat are keynames for ~ and `?01:34
CatButtsasciitilde and ...01:35
sunshaviperhaps back apostrophe01:35
MaxdamantusThat's what I called "backtick" before, but it's `grave` in xkb.01:35
jonwilPinephone also not for sale.01:38
jonwilFairphone is only for sale in Europe.01:38
sunshavijonwil: pinephone is ready for sale. I think with ubuntu-os loaded or xx-os (whicd i do not remember). You could do phone calls and sms01:39
jonwilPinephone website says "pre-order" and not "shipping now"01:39
jonwilAnd obviously I dont want to buy something that wont ship until some future date.01:40
jonwilI think some post on TMO might lead to some advice on what my options are...01:40
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CatButtswhat's the ^ called?01:45
CatButtscan't find "caret"01:45
Maxdamantus(as in "circumflex")01:46
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Wizzupyeah clearly the droid4 does not exist and the pinephone has only been sold and shipped to many thousands people02:05
Wizzupbut surely it's 'pre order' lol02:06
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sunshaviwizzup: thanks for clarification. Any recommendation for jonwil02:07
sunshavicatbutts: this generates a jar on device?02:07
MaxdamantusSo people are only pining for it?02:07
MaxdamantusOh, they're not pining.02:08
jonwilOk so maybe its not pre-order but the website does say that it wont ship for quite a while.02:09
jonwilSo the Pinephone isn't really something I can buy right now.02:09
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Wizzupthe droid4 seems easily obtainable everywhere in the world02:10
jonwilNot sure its available in Australia...02:10
jonwilAlso I can't find any info on what frequency bands it supports (does it even do 4G?)02:12
CatButtsis there convenient way to debug keyboard mapping?02:14
CatButtssay one that shows line where parser errors02:14
MaxdamantusIndeed, I don't think they're really available here in NZ either. I've had an alert set up for them on the main trading site used for the last few months and have not seen anything.02:19
MaxdamantusSo would have to just buy them from ebay or something.02:19
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CatButts hmmmm, my multikey shortcuts are not quite working correctly02:42
CatButtsholding down both modifier keys and pressing "z", then "x" triggers ")}" and ")}"02:43
MaxdamantusSo it produces the same thing twice?02:45
Maxdamantusfwiw, I disabled the OSK that pops up for some reason to do with modifier keys not behaving as I wanted, can't quite remember what the problem was though.02:46
jonwilMade a forum post asking for recommendations.02:47
WizzupMaxdamantus: the ones I saw on ebay ship worldwide02:47
MaxdamantusWizzup: yeah, as long as you pay $70 to ship it to NZ.02:47
MaxdamantusProbably similar for Australia.02:48
jonwilHopefully I can find some advice and find a device that's worth buying and don't need to go with "buy the least-locked-down Android phone I can find" and live with it.02:48
jonwilOh and for reasons I don't want to go into, buying from eBay is not an option (Amazon yes but not eBay)02:50
MaxdamantusWizzup: hm, which ones are you seeing on ebay?02:50
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Wizzupbtw, is still not working on http, only https02:51
WizzupMaxdamantus: I saw a few, but actually those were not shipping worldwide02:51
WizzupMaxdamantus: if you're interested in development of some kind I might be able to send one to you when I get home a week from now02:51
* Wizzup zzz02:52
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CatButtswell, on the bright side, I have all my braces02:57
CatButtsbrackets and paranthesis02:57
jonwilAt least I do have a phone I can use for the short term to handle calls and SMS and the basics (*its a no-name dirt cheap Android hing)03:23
brolin_empeySaying that Web sites do not work on the N900 seems to be conflating specific software used on the N900 with the N900, which is a model of computer that can run multiple operating systems even if all of them are based upon a Linux kernel.03:25
jonwilIn any case my phone is not worth getting fixed (the "no sim cellmo issue" being the other big problem besides the charge port)03:26
jonwilI did get about a decade worth of use out of it which for a smartphone is pretty good.03:28
brolin_empeyAnyway, the search function of the Web site seems to be broken for a query of “C60M1-I”, which is a model of Mini-ITX motherboard from Asus.03:28
jonwilIf the Neo900 project hadn't effectively died (due to circumstances beyond the control of the people on the project IIRC including some BS from PayPal) then it might well have been an option to replace my N900 with.03:32
brolin_empeyjonwil: Apparently the Nexus One can run Debian GNU+Linux as the host OS but I do not know if cellular telephony and SMS/MMS are usable on GNU+Linux.  Yes, I realise that the Nexus One lacks an integrated hardware keyboard but maybe it will still suffice for you?03:53
jonwilWhilst a Linux phone would be nice, if I can't find a Linux phone that's got the other things I need I have no objection to Android as long as its not so locked down (e.g. can03:54
jonwilcan't install new kernel etc)03:54
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brolin_empeyjonwil: You can replace the stock OS on the Samsung Galaxy Note 3, at least the SM-N900W8 (Qualcomm Snapdragon-based variant for Canada, among other regions) variant I have, which I think implies that you can use a custom kernel build.03:59
jonwilBut actually finding a Note 3 here in Australia will be hard.04:00
jonwilUnless its a really really good pick, I intend to buy new rather than 2nd hand.04:01
brolin_empeyjonwil: I do not know if the stock OS can be replaced on the Samsung Exynos-based variants of the Galaxy Note 3, which is why I specified one of the literally at least twenty variants of the Galaxy Note 3 instead of just saying “Galaxy Note 3”.  I do not see why new versus used matters in this case unless the IMEI or similar has been blacklisted due to a previous user of the computer.  The battery is easily removable and replaceable (correct spelling?)04:08
brolin_empeyon the Galaxy Note 4 and earlier so you do not have to worry about the condition of the included battery if you buy the computer used.  Well, actually in your case maybe you do if you refuse to use eBay because I bought both my Galaxy Note 3 and all of the batteries for it on eBay so I do not know if these products are available without using eBay.  Why would finding a Galaxy Note 3 be difficult in Australia?04:08
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brolin_empey seems to have very little for sale but I do not know what is more popular than Craigslist in Australia?04:16
brolin_empeyI mean very little of anything for sale, not only of this type of item.04:17
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jonwilI don't really want to buy a used Android device (regardless of quality) in any case04:20
jonwilI would rather buy new unless its something special and unique (which anything Galaxy is not)04:20
jonwilGet something with more modern cellular band support and better WiFi and stuff.04:21
brolin_empeyThe Galaxy Note 4 and earlier are special if you want an easily removable and replaceable battery and maybe also if you want to root the stock OS or replace the OS but I do not know about the feasibility of these modifications on the Galaxy Note 5 and later because the difficult to access and remove battery is a dealbreaker for me.04:24
brolin_empeyI meant easily accessible and removable battery and to replace the stock OS with an unofficial/community/aftermarket OS.04:26
jonwilGalaxy Note is too large for me anyway, I have smaller hands.04:28
jonwilSo any of the Note models just wont work as a phone for me.04:28
brolin_empeyThen what about the (HTC) Nexus One?  It is from 2009 or 2010 so I do not know if its cellular connectivity is still available in Australia?04:32
jonwilDoesn't do 4G so no good for the future04:32
jonwil3G is still here but not forever04:32
brolin_empey4G as in LTE or LTE-A?04:33
jonwilSo I want 4G for future proofing04:33
jonwilAccording to the carrier they use LTE on 2100/1800/85004:34
brolin_empeyIs the Galaxy S5 sufficiently smaller than the Galaxy Note series?  I am almost certain the Galaxy S5 still has an easily accessible and removable battery but the Galaxy S6 no longer does.04:36
jonwilAs I said, I dont want to buy used and a replacable battery isn't a feature I care enough about to make something special.04:37
jonwilAs good as they are.04:37
brolin_empeyAnyway, I just confirmed that my memory was accurate about the removability of the battery in the Galaxy S5 and Galaxy S6.  If you plan to use your next handheld computer for a decade then you will need to replace the battery multiple times.  How do you know that being able to easily access and remove the battery is not important to you if you have had this ability for at least a decade?04:44
jonwilI am not necessarily buying a phone that will get used for a decade.04:49
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jonwilIf someone had told me when I bought it that I would still be using my N900 a decade later I wouldn't have believed them.04:50
jonwilIf its something unique then sure it might be worth buying to keep for a long time but if its just Android I want new and not used and don't mind so much if its not going to last me 10 years.04:51
brolin_empeyIn my experience at least with the Galaxy Note 3 and the LG G5 that replaced the Galaxy Note 3 in early 2019, I need to replace the battery every year or two, sometimes more than once per year.06:43
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sicelotmo is blocking me :p07:49
siceloanyway, i don't think droid 4 is a solution for jonwil because android is outdated and slow on it. maemo leste is still alpha (or beta)07:51
clortjonwil: droid4 comes after n90007:51
clorttake n900. make every parameter a little bit better.  take almost nothing away.  voila droid407:52
jonwilDroid4 hardware might be good but the OS is ancient and slow (I dont think there is a modern Android or Linux for it that's actually usable as a daily driver)07:53
jonwilLeste certainly isn't ready for daily-driver use07:53
sicelomaybe samsung a5 (2015) could be an option. modern enough to run android well, amd linux mainline kernel has support for it, so if you feel like hacking away on it, it's doable. i believe running leste on it is 100% possible07:53
clortjonwil: so put maemo-leste on it07:53
jonwilleste isn't ready for daily-driver use07:54
jonwileven for linux-geek-daily-driver use07:54
clorthelp make it so :)07:54
jonwilI don't have the time right now to hack on Leste :)07:54
jonwilI need something that will "07:54
jonwilthat will work out of the box07:54
sicelothe A5 just doesn't have a keyboard (like the pp)07:54
clortthat will put YOU in a box then07:55
jonwilBe that modern Android or be that something Linux that's actually ready for prime time07:55
jonwilA physical keyboard isn't a must-have actually, I would like one but don't NEED one.07:55
clortthese buzzwords are also things i do not need07:55
sicelowhat buzzwords?07:56
clort'prime time'07:57
jonwilAt least I don't have to make a decision right away. In a previous situation where my N900 was having issues, I bought a backup phone. (basically the cheapest pre-paid option I could find at that time that was compatible with my carrier)07:57
jonwilI am not someone that can afford to have a phone where the OS is years out of date or still in beta. I don't have the time to hack on a beta OS.07:58
siceloalright. best wishes on your search. it's sad that there aren't too many options07:58
sicelooh, there's also the FxTec phones. They have Android with a qwerty keyboard, and are made by a fellow tmo'er iirc07:59
jonwilIf the phone I am looking for is out there, I am sure someone on tmo will post in the forum thread I made... :)08:00
siceloi think they were a but pricey (for me), but check them out. may fit your budget.08:00
clortHe didn't need this, he thought to himself, this of all things he had no need of. He hadn't asked to be here. If he was asked at this moment where he would like to be he would probably have said he would like to be lying on the beach with at least fifty beautiful women and a small team of experts working out new ways they could be nice to him...08:04
jonwilDefinitely out of my price range given I could get a fairly decent plain Android phone for around half what the FxTech would cost me.08:05
clortquote from THHGTTG08:05
jonwilNo way I can justify spending over a grand for a phone.08:05
jonwilNot when its clear I don't have to.08:05
clortoflag=direct avoids dirty buffer constipation when you dd partitions!!08:05
CatButtsit occured to me about the fn+shift z and x producing outputting same double keys08:10
CatButtswhat if ghosting of keyboard hardware08:10
CatButts*z then x08:11
MaxdamantusDoubt it. I suspect it's some weird hildon IME behaviour again.08:12
* Maxdamantus disabled that.08:12
CatButtsI may want to look into that08:13
Maxdamantus20:03 < Maxdamantus> Just have to remove /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/immodules/hildon-im-module.so08:18
MaxdamantusI guess that's how I disabled that.08:18
CatButtsdoes this disable function/shift key layering entirely?08:19
MaxdamantusIt disables the OSK and the sticky keys behaviour.08:19
MaxdamantusBut it should enable use of a regular compose key.08:20
Maxdamantus`sym + ctrl` for me works like a normal Xorg compose key, which didn't work with HIM enabled.08:20
Maxdamantuser, rather, the `blue + ctrl`08:21
Maxdamantuscan't remember what the blue symbol is .. my key is worn out.08:21
CatButtsthe one in middle left?08:22
CatButtsit's diagonal arrow up/right08:23
CatButtsdoes disabling involve commenting out a config file, or do I rename the .so?08:23
CatButts*commenting out a line of config file08:23
MaxdamantusI'm not sure what refers to it. I think I just moved that file. I don't currently see anything else in that directory, so not sure if something scans everything in the "immodules" directory.08:24
Maxdamantusand you'll probably need to `killall hildon-input-method` for it to take effect.08:25
Maxdamantus(it hildon-input-method should relaunch, but it won't be able to load that HIM module.08:25
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siceloThe double key in zx and jk is hardware. it's mentioned in the wiki08:42
siceloIt also affects other OSes (so not exlusive to maemo/hildon)08:50
MaxdamantusOh yeah, I get it as well.08:51
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MaxdamantusGuess I've never tried using double modifiers with those keys.08:51
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brolin_empeysicelo: Maybe I am being too literal but I thought all of the OSes for the N900 are based upon the Linux kernel?09:13
brolin_empeyMaxdamantus: At least in my experience, it is too easy to scratch off the paint (paint?) from the keys on the integrated hardware keyboard of the N900.09:16
siceloi don't see how your kernel comment is relevant to what was being discussed09:20
brolin_empeyEh, I am looking at the integrated hardware keyboard of my N900 for the first time in months and notice that apparently only the black background, not the white/blue legends, has worn off on some of the keys.09:21
MaxdamantusWell, the white can't really wear off, because that's presumably just where they haven't put any paint.09:23
brolin_empeysicelo: “It also affects other OSes (so not exlusive to maemo/hildon)” I thought the behaviour discussed could be part of the Linux kernel if all of the OSes used on the N900 use a Linux kernel.09:24
MaxdamantusI think the wear mostly depends on use. I think in my case I've only really caused the "sym" key to wear our, because I press that with my thumb nail.09:24
clortit would be nice if worked with dillo09:24
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clortfor read-only09:24
MaxdamantusThe blue key on this keyboard was already worn when I got it.09:25
sicelowhat's painful is when they come off09:26
clorti got a nice keyboard here09:26
clortnot worn09:26
MaxdamantusIndeed, that started to happen on my other device.09:27
brolin_empeyMaxdamantus: On my keyboard, the northeast arrow legend is white instead of blue.09:27
MaxdamantusThey seem to mostly stick back on with silicone, but more and more of them were coming off, so I just swapped the keypads around when I had to disassemble my main device.09:27
clortthe international n900 keyboards are sadness09:27
clortdroid 4 + maemo leste rules the shell with 5-row keyboard09:28
clortwe don't need OSK09:28
MaemoButtsrenaming away the hildon ime .so didn't fix the z and x. But it did get rid of sticky keys.09:29
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MaxdamantusRight, sicelo pointed out that it is a hardware thing. It'll be a rollover limitation.09:36
MaemoButtsso. ghosting09:37
MaxdamantusOh yeah, that's what it's called.09:38
enycclort: n900 + improvements seems to avoid OSK need  but not tried to internationalize over english10:09
enycMaemoButts: yes, the  twl4030  driver was disabling  possibly ghosted keystates  overzealously, this was patched-out in  leste n900 kernel10:11
enycbrolin_empey: wow how long did that take to wear-out that far?10:15
enycbrolin_empey: hrrm is that some sort of usb-cable with both micro and mini cables on the end?10:16
MaemoButtstcc doesn't seem to come with headers and libs by default. oops10:23
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brolin_empeyenyc: Keyboard wear: I do not remember but I only used the N900 from 2010 to 2014, when the Geeksphone Revolution was released.  Since then I switched to the Samsung Galaxy Note 3 in 2015, then to the LG G5 in 2019.  USB cable: Yes, it is a combination cable from StarTech that has both mini and micro plugs, only one to be used at once, on one end of the cable.  I recommend it over normal cables with only a mini xor micro plug on one end but, unfortunately,10:39
brolin_empeyat my office we have a box full of mini-only cables and few spare cables with a micro connector.10:39
brolin_empeyThe same mini/micro combination cable is available in black too.10:41
enycbrolin_empey: i see! useful o know that was a startech tnhing!  only see silly fraglie roll-up-retractable version of now10:43
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MaxdamantusPresumably you could also use it as an OTG cable.10:48
brolin_empeyenyc: I do not know if it matters but I think all or at least most of the StarTech products I have were bought from Synnex Canada, not directly from StarTech.10:52
clorti wore through a n810 keyboard10:53
clortit helps to clean thumbs of grit10:53
brolin_empeyMaxdamantus: The other end of this combination cable is a normal full-size USB Type A plug, not a socket.  I mean the other end of the cable has only one connector, like a normal USB cable.10:54
Maxdamantusbrolin_empey: right, but you could probably connect a mini-USB device to the N900 using host mode on the N900.10:55
Maxdamantus(and nothing plugged into the type A plug, except maybe a power source)10:55
brolin_empeyApparently the StarTech model name for this cable is USBHAUBMB3 and apparently we have not bought this cable since 2017 so maybe StarTech has discontinued it since then.11:00
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brolin_empeyYes, apparently StarTech has discontinued this cable:
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enycbrolin_empey: i also suspect mini-usb things are no longer so easily ound and so-on12:01
enycbrolin_empey: e.g. startech might tend to be maknig micro-C hybrids, and so-on!.12:01
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clortis there a status bar plugin for wifi that shows current ip - last three digits?13:21
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sicelothere is desktop widget13:23
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clortwith 7-pixel wide font i think there is space sicelo
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CatButtsmaybe if my keypad erodes like brolin's, I can have my own layout, without existing shitty 2arrow layout symbols interfering with my typing20:46
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CatButtsI am not to eager to memorize, though20:48
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brolin_empeyclort: You seem to mean the decimal/base 10 representation of the last octet/byte of the IPv4 address of the Wireless LAN interface and seem to assume that only IPv4, not IPv6, will be used for this interface.  I do not know if Maemo supports IPv6 because I do not use IPv6 in practice.22:01
clortit does but ipv6 addr won't meaningfully fit22:03
clortonly useful if you're in a /4 net, and want to see which number you got in the known network22:03
clortinet6 works fine22:04
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