IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2018-03-05

freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: on the bright side -
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DocScrutinizer05don't get me started about the mindset of those applauding to a project forcefeeding its crap down everybody's throat and calling that "welcome unification"00:03
DocScrutinizer05sounds like an approach right back from 193300:03
* DocScrutinizer05 will deploy face recognition for subway, ATMs, acess control of all kinds, and build that face recog in a way that makes it mandatory to shave your hair off for it to work. Welcome unification of people's look and style on the streets00:08
DocScrutinizer05you don't like being bald? but why? it's the future and makes so many things so much easier/better00:10
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DocScrutinizer05((mindset of those applauding)) worst part in it: those who applaud the loudest are those that have the last clue about the topic. When you don't understand what an init system does and how init works, most likely not even have any skills to write a shellscript, then sure you will happily eat the BS about "systemd unit files simpler than init scripts"00:16
DocScrutinizer05s/ last / least /00:17
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: ((mindset of those applauding)) worst part in it: those who applaud the loudest are those that have the least clue about the topic. When you don't understand what an init system does and how init works, most likely not even have any skills to write a shel...00:17
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DocScrutinizer05we've been there before and seen EXACTLY SAME SHIT happen, based on same type of false assumptions, broken promises and incompetence, with PolypAudio replacing ALSA. Just PA is no hard dependency of everything and their installer program, like systemd now - you *can* kick it out and get working audio again thanks ALSA which for sure is not optimal either but still better than PA after all those years of PA fixing alleged issues in ALSA00:24
DocScrutinizer05that never really existed. Thanks to exactly same guy who brings us system D now00:24
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DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: sorry for delay, had to vent a little. Great!00:42
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Oksanaapkill9 : I am using Nokia N900 as daily phone, and when MicroB doesn't work, I use Fennec 17. If it doesn't work either, I use laptop because I am too lazy to test other N900's browsers (chromium and such). ssh -X into a desktop machine could also work. Internet Banking works fine in MicroB, and I01:22
Oksanaadon't use WhatsApp (telepathy is fine for IRC and SIP)01:25
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OksanaaLantizia : I apologise for my personal almost-religious anti-systemd-ish-ness [I am similarly stubborn about many topics], but if big Linux kernel becomes a problem, I will find a micro-kernel (like Minix) to swtich to, instead of saying "oh, kernel is huge and bloated, let's have init-systemd which01:28
Oksanaais huge and bloated, too". I don't drink pepsi/coke/soda, and I don't subscribe to sameness/monopolism.01:31
OksanaaEither way, I am quite sure that it's not that difficult to take "maemo 7" and install systemd on it (if you wish to). After all, systemd knows how to handle all different types of init scripts, doesn't it?
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sixwheeledbeastFennec? I assume thumb?01:43
Oksanaasixwheeledbeast : I guess so.01:43
OksanaaIt is slow, but the websites are more likely to work in it than in MicroB. Still, it is slow.01:43
OksanaaAs for tab interface of MicroB...
sixwheeledbeastIssue with systemd and maemo is cgroups. The whole systemd decision started by bashing Devuan doubt it would be used for Maemo. I don't believe systemd is compatible with old scripts whereas upstart is. Fennec is pretty unusable if your not on thumb.01:53
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JuestoOksanaa: remember opera? that one does well too02:03
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* Maxdamantus primarily uses opera (opera mobile that is (renders on-device), not opera mini or whatever it's called (renders on opera's servers))02:51
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Juestomini renders on their servers!?03:41
Juestoand what's transmitted to clients then?03:42
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Juestosixth maemo is harmattan04:09
Juestowtf some people04:11
Juestothere's also mer !04:11
MaxdamantusJuesto: aiui it's some combination of images and text.04:11
MaxdamantusJuesto: but the client doesn't need to do layout computation etc04:12
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OksanaaIs there a leste image for Allwinner A33 tablet?06:55
DocScrutinizer05Oksanaa: forget about systemd on any maemo that used ohm(?) managed cgroups, systemd wants to rape those and doesn't work without exclusive control over them afaik07:21
DocScrutinizer05ooh sixwheeledbeast beat me on it07:22
DocScrutinizer05iirc system D even just segfaults when you try to start it (PID1, remember?) on a kernel without cgroups support07:26
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DocScrutinizer05>>Unchecked null pointer dereferencing in PID 1 not considered a serious issue - "To make this work we'd need a patch, as nobody of us tests this.", "I will not work on this" - Systemd requires cgroups and segfaults if there is no cgroups support.<<07:31
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Maxdamantusto be fair, I'm pretty sure you can still create your own cgroups alongside systemd.07:39
MaxdamantusI'm not too familiar with them, though I'm fairly sure I tried that a few years ago and it didn't seem like my cgroup would have interferred with systemd's ones or vice versa.07:41
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OksanaaStill, init system should not require this, that and everything?
MaxdamantusI agree with that, though the other software should also generally not care.07:45
MaxdamantusI'm also not familiar with ohmd, but it sounds like that probably relies on cgroups as well.07:46
Maxdamantusand I imagine if it doesn't work alongside systemd, it's probably because ohmd is trying to control systemd's cgroups.07:46
OksanaaAt least, ohmd doesn't try to be an init system at the same time :-)07:47
* Oksanaa doesn't understand cgroups well enough to know if it makes sense to "grant some daemon exclusive access to this functionality"07:48
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KotCzarnyit would be like creating firewalld that takes exclusive control of iptables, networking, app network rights, that will run in init 1, had a lot of bugs, 'simplified' config for users while at the same time made it more complicated, required bunch of custom binaries to control etc07:52
KotCzarnyi'm still amazed those guys didnt went that way yet07:52
siceloJuesto: mer was not Nokia's project and so doesn't count as a 'Maemo.' I don5 recall that it even used Hildon07:53
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DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: oh they didn't? are you sure?07:54
KotCzarnydont know, havent checked07:54
KotCzarnybut i suspect it would make some news and fuss07:54
DocScrutinizer05I think system D ate iptables07:54
DocScrutinizer05networkd anybody?07:55
JuestoOksanaa: nothing about allwinner a33 tablet07:57
Juestosicelo: oh... derp07:57
DocScrutinizer05>>The firewall manipulation helpers are used for establishing NAT rules. This support in systemd is provided by libiptc, the library used for communicating with the Linux kernel's Netfilter and changing iptables firewall rule-sets. <<07:58
siceloKotCzarny: they're one step ahead :-)07:59
DocScrutinizer05so they didn't grab netfilters/iptables/whatever the name completely yet since it's kernel land07:59
Maxdamantusnetfilter = kernel, iptables = userspace stuff that configures it08:00
KotCzarnyas i've said, they try to be both in kernel and userland, breaking separation and security of that model at the same time08:00
KotCzarnyso, did they implement remote management yet?08:01
KotCzarnyor just stick to exploiting own bugs for that? ;)08:01
DocScrutinizer05yep, of course. It pissed lennart to no end that linus doesn't eat lennart's BS without bitching about it and rejects it instead08:01
DocScrutinizer05remote management? only via HTML frontend ;-P08:02
KotCzarnywhich reminds me i should add html frontend to oscp-core08:03
KotCzarnyhar har08:03
DocScrutinizer05you're free to do that, OSCP is an app. ÜID1 shouldn't08:04
KotCzarnythat would make it accessible from any html capable device08:04
Juestostill curious about mer and all that tbh08:11
sicelo-- sailfish08:15
Juestoso it's sailfish clone?08:18
* Juesto shakes head08:19
KotCzarnyother way i think08:19
KotCzarnySailfish OS (also styled as SailfishOS[4] or abbreviated to SFOS) is a general purpose Linux distribution used commonly as a mobile operating system combining the Linux kernel for a particular hardware platform, the open-source Mer core stack of middleware, a proprietary UI contributed by Jolla or an open source UI, and other third-party components.[1][2]08:19
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KotCzarnyjust read the first few paragraphs that explain what comes where08:20
sicelothanks KotCzarny08:29
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DocScrutinizer05or just look at
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Juestomoblin is defunct or...? idk just remembered about that09:40
sicelotizen :)09:42
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JuestoSamsung smarttv....09:44
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KotCzarnyanyway, oscp-0.9.81 uploaded. special n8x0 release11:21
KotCzarnyisnt it nice to have app that can play current formats on a device 10+ years old?11:22
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drathirKotCzarny: bump of ssl/tls i guess probably woulld be nice too...17:45
KotCzarnythat topic was discussed on the channel few times, it's not trivial because higher openssl versions aren't compatible with old apps17:48
drathirKotCzarny: yea im aware of that he best choice probably two version provided old and new, and old app against old build and new against new one...17:49
drathirbut kinda lot of work/rebuild...17:50
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siceloanswer - maemo leste17:55
* sicelo hides17:55
KotCzarnyit's not showtime ready yet17:55
drathiror even not sure if still possible build new openssl with flags enabled for old functions but not sure how lon them will be still available, and still first idea better two  separate...17:55
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Juestossl 2.0 doesn't go well with tls 1.2 or sth18:09
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DocScrutinizer05sicelo: rather maemo leste? answer: what drathir suggested and leste doesn't really do: go ahead without dropping backward compatibility. AIUI in leste you would need to recompile *all* (SSL-depending?) apps, so leste isn't the answer but rather the duplication and potentiation of the situation on fremantle in that regard19:11
freemangordonI don;t see anything stopping us from providing openssl 0.9.8 in leste19:15
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DocScrutinizer05you should :-)19:17
DocScrutinizer05though with armhf you will need to recompile every app anyway19:17
freemangordonyes. and not only for armhf but also for x64 and arm64 ;)19:18
DocScrutinizer05then it doesn't matter when you provide/link against newest openssl19:18
freemangordonit does, as APIs are not compatible19:18
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freemangordonso it would mean less porting19:18
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freemangordonwhich remands me we're near to the point we'll have to port certman :). That would be fun19:20
DocScrutinizer05I think an OS of this (sorry) limited scale regarding users and devs will fail like a 2 dozen others I've seen failing, when you don't have an existing convenient pool of readily usable apps19:20
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DocScrutinizer05it's the chicken/egg problem, always19:21
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: sure we may fail. Though, we HAVE those apps already in the repos19:22
freemangordonthey just need to be recompiled19:22
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DocScrutinizer05yes, I hope all the best for leste that >90% will just build without any issues19:23
freemangordonsee, if "users" don;t want/need free mobile OS, so be it19:23
freemangordonalso, I expect similar percentage to be binary compatible on armel19:24
freemangordonbut we still don;t have enough of the "bas" to start such tests19:24
KotCzarnyhard part is getting image/installer generic enough for the majority19:24
KotCzarnymost users just ask 'where is the image for my XYZ device'19:24
DocScrutinizer05I admit I'm not really savvy to judge on the ABI-compatibility between armel and armhf19:24
freemangordonKotCzarny: which is a problem of HW/kernel19:25
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: In short - there is no such compatibility :)19:25
KotCzarnysome of them posses ability to piece/compile os given the recipe19:25
KotCzarnybut most just want readily working thingy19:25
freemangordonKotCzarny: I think we'll just provide online installer for devuan, so, as long as your device can boot to devuan, you're fine19:26
KotCzarnyand it's especially sore in arm land19:26
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: do you work on arm64 yet?19:27
freemangordonI know, but without us doing something in the userland it will never change. Not that we're guaranteed to have that change with leste, but still19:27
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KotCzarnyi'm doing h3droid, which is targetting one specific soc, and there are people without the skill to just write the .img.xz to sdcard, boot it and select their board model19:28
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: no, I don;t have HW, but I am pretty sure it will be fine as most of the develpmnet done by me was on x6419:28
KotCzarnyand it's sad, but there is a chance with few specific devices supported it will fly19:28
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: what do you think about this (SoC)?
freemangordonKotCzarny: I think we can provide image, given you can boot upstream kernel on the particular device19:29
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: afaik Wizzup has one (or plans to get)19:30
freemangordonthat'd be one of the supported targets afaik19:30
DocScrutinizer05Allwinner A20[1](sun7i) 2 x Cortex-A7 CPU-cores ||  Allwinner A64[4](sun50i)  4 x Cortex-A53 CPU-core19:32
freemangordonMaili GPU, right?19:32
KotCzarnyA33 is also sweet target, plenty of sub 50usd ips display tablets19:33
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freemangordonbut, we still have problems with Mali there, I really hope this will be solved soon19:33
KotCzarnyand the nice thing is that support for mali and video accel engines are being done19:33
freemangordon"being" done19:34
KotCzarnyyeah, did you see the VE kickstarter?19:34
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freemangordonah, VPU (DSP)19:35
KotCzarnyfirst stretch goal is also ticked off19:35
DocScrutinizer05>>GPU: Mali400, Mali400-MP2, SGX544 or PowerVR G6230 Graphics Procesor Unit, supporting OpenGL ES2.<<19:35
KotCzarnyso basically any Axx series will get hw video decoding open sourced and mainlined19:35
DocScrutinizer05friggin useful¡19:35
freemangordonKotCzarny: and what about GPU? any news there?19:36
KotCzarnyapart from that mripard blog entry19:36
freemangordonmhm, anything else?19:37
DocScrutinizer05yep, Mali400:
freemangordonas drivers are broken ATM19:37
DocScrutinizer05Mali-400 MP2 1 2 256 KiBA20 (sun7i), A23 (sun8i), A33, H3 (sun8i), A64 A6419:37
KotCzarnythat amd guy is still the hope19:37
freemangordonwhich one, link?19:38
freemangordonah, lima19:38
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KotCzarnybut not the old lima19:38
KotCzarnyyuq took over19:38
freemangordondoes it work at all?19:39
KotCzarnyhaven't really checked, probably wizzup or folks on #linux-sunxi might say more19:39
freemangordonWizzup was too busy with leste stuff lately ;)19:40
freemangordonbut I'll ask him19:40
freemangordonas I have A33 in front of me19:40
freemangordongathering dust because of unusable GPU accell19:41
KotCzarnywell, you might get that tree and try out19:41
KotCzarnymaster seems to be unused19:42
freemangordonwhat about userspace? mesa?19:42
KotCzarnysince it's being done as generic drm driver, probably19:43
freemangordonand modesetting I gues19:43
KotCzarnythere is mesa-lima repo too19:43
KotCzarnyso probably need both19:43
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WizzupI am not so sure that lima does anything useful in mesa yet19:51
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Wizzupfreemangordon: I also have Olimex OLinuXino A6419:51
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Wizzupspecifically regarding providing old and unsupported openssl libs -- what could go wrong :)19:52
freemangordonactually they ARE supported by centos AFAIK ;)19:53
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: so what's your personal "sweetspot" SoC?19:53
DocScrutinizer05max grunt and still open enough19:53
freemangordonomap3 :)19:53
DocScrutinizer05why not OMAP5?19:54
Wizzupqualcomm socks with adreno gpus are not that badf19:54
infobotWizzup meant: qualcomm socks with adreno gpus are not that bad19:54
Wizzups/socks/socs/ wat19:54
KotCzarnyaren't qualcomm inception socs? computer in a computer?19:54
* freemangordon have to go afk19:55
DocScrutinizer05qualcomm sounds nasty. I seem to recall they got a record for not being open19:55
Wizzupifc6410 works quite nicely on mainline19:55
Wizzupincluding opengl and opengles by a free driver19:55
KotCzarnyi suspect their recent move to openness doesnt involve sharing all details19:55
KotCzarnyie. they could just show you what they want you to19:56
KotCzarnyand keep real cpus hidden and working behind19:56
Wizzupright - there's many aspects to this of course19:56
Wizzupbut if you want a powerful yet mostly supported (with foss gpu driver) soc, that one works19:56
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Wizzupfreemangordon: I will try mali again a bit later on a20, I got module and dts to work fine, just had trouble with userspace and debugging it wasn't obvious IIRC19:57
DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: who created that DT and based on what?20:01
Wizzuplinaro did a lot of work20:01
Wizzupmain issue I had with the board that is gets too hot and downclocks20:02
Wizzupbut the opengl driver is best on all of arm platforms :)20:02
Wizzupof all of*20:03
DocScrutinizer05I always got the same problem with that stuff - there's no reference to any datasheet or TRM20:03
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Wizzupyes, that is a problem with I think all major SoC vendors now20:03
DocScrutinizer05basically somebody throws some code over the wall and you can check if it works or not, but not really fix or improve it, or understand what it really does20:04
DocScrutinizer05"the code is the documentation" comes to a dead end when looking at device drivers20:06
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Wizzupit's impressive how well it works though20:08
KotCzarnyas long the code is correct20:09
KotCzarnyand matches the binaries20:09
KotCzarny'oh, hey, we forget to include few essential bugfixes'20:09
DocScrutinizer05from a security audit perspective as well as from a FOSS perspective it's a failed approach20:10
Wizzupyeah, so it depends on the definition of open -- open drivers or open specs20:11
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Wizzup(or both)20:11
Wizzupwell, sure, but he asked about a sweetspot20:12
Wizzuphe didn't even ask me, but still, I like talking about arm socs20:12
DocScrutinizer05what REALLY pisses me off is FSF supporting that approach20:12
Wizzupyeah, fsf is not fhf :P20:13
Wizzupkinda sad20:13
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* drathir remember was mentioned that openssl get build flag to enable old one but it need extra switch to enable and in future will be deleted from build flags too...20:24
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