| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: on the bright side - https://imgur.com/a/XxTTX | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
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| DocScrutinizer05 | don't get me started about the mindset of those applauding to a project forcefeeding its crap down everybody's throat and calling that "welcome unification" | 00:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like an approach right back from 1933 | 00:03 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 will deploy face recognition for subway, ATMs, acess control of all kinds, and build that face recog in a way that makes it mandatory to shave your hair off for it to work. Welcome unification of people's look and style on the streets | 00:08 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you don't like being bald? but why? it's the future and makes so many things so much easier/better | 00:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ((mindset of those applauding)) worst part in it: those who applaud the loudest are those that have the last clue about the topic. When you don't understand what an init system does and how init works, most likely not even have any skills to write a shellscript, then sure you will happily eat the BS about "systemd unit files simpler than init scripts" | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/ last / least / | 00:17 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: ((mindset of those applauding)) worst part in it: those who applaud the loudest are those that have the least clue about the topic. When you don't understand what an init system does and how init works, most likely not even have any skills to write a shel... | 00:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | we've been there before and seen EXACTLY SAME SHIT happen, based on same type of false assumptions, broken promises and incompetence, with PolypAudio replacing ALSA. Just PA is no hard dependency of everything and their installer program, like systemd now - you *can* kick it out and get working audio again thanks ALSA which for sure is not optimal either but still better than PA after all those years of PA fixing alleged issues in ALSA | 00:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that never really existed. Thanks to exactly same guy who brings us system D now | 00:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: sorry for delay, had to vent a little. Great! | 00:42 |
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| Oksanaa | pkill9 : I am using Nokia N900 as daily phone, and when MicroB doesn't work, I use Fennec 17. If it doesn't work either, I use laptop because I am too lazy to test other N900's browsers (chromium and such). ssh -X into a desktop machine could also work. Internet Banking works fine in MicroB, and I | 01:22 |
| Oksanaa | don't use WhatsApp (telepathy is fine for IRC and SIP) | 01:25 |
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| Oksanaa | Lantizia : I apologise for my personal almost-religious anti-systemd-ish-ness [I am similarly stubborn about many topics], but if big Linux kernel becomes a problem, I will find a micro-kernel (like Minix) to swtich to, instead of saying "oh, kernel is huge and bloated, let's have init-systemd which | 01:28 |
| Oksanaa | is huge and bloated, too". I don't drink pepsi/coke/soda, and I don't subscribe to sameness/monopolism. | 01:31 |
| Oksanaa | Either way, I am quite sure that it's not that difficult to take "maemo 7" and install systemd on it (if you wish to). After all, systemd knows how to handle all different types of init scripts, doesn't it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers | 01:33 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | Fennec? I assume thumb? | 01:43 |
| Oksanaa | sixwheeledbeast : I guess so. | 01:43 |
| Oksanaa | It is slow, but the websites are more likely to work in it than in MicroB. Still, it is slow. | 01:43 |
| Oksanaa | As for tab interface of MicroB... http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=67622 | 01:46 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Issue with systemd and maemo is cgroups. The whole systemd decision started by bashing Devuan doubt it would be used for Maemo. I don't believe systemd is compatible with old scripts whereas upstart is. Fennec is pretty unusable if your not on thumb. | 01:53 |
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| Juesto | Oksanaa: remember opera? that one does well too | 02:03 |
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| * Maxdamantus primarily uses opera (opera mobile that is (renders on-device), not opera mini or whatever it's called (renders on opera's servers)) | 02:51 | |
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| Juesto | mini renders on their servers!? | 03:41 |
| Juesto | and what's transmitted to clients then? | 03:42 |
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| Juesto | sixth maemo is harmattan | 04:09 |
| Juesto | pfft | 04:11 |
| Juesto | wtf some people | 04:11 |
| Juesto | there's also mer ! | 04:11 |
| Maxdamantus | Juesto: aiui it's some combination of images and text. | 04:11 |
| Juesto | hmm | 04:11 |
| Maxdamantus | Juesto: but the client doesn't need to do layout computation etc | 04:12 |
| Juesto | ah | 04:12 |
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| Oksanaa | Is there a leste image for Allwinner A33 tablet? | 06:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Oksanaa: forget about systemd on any maemo that used ohm(?) managed cgroups, systemd wants to rape those and doesn't work without exclusive control over them afaik | 07:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh sixwheeledbeast beat me on it | 07:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iirc system D even just segfaults when you try to start it (PID1, remember?) on a kernel without cgroups support | 07:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd | 07:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>Unchecked null pointer dereferencing in PID 1 not considered a serious issue - "To make this work we'd need a patch, as nobody of us tests this.", "I will not work on this" - Systemd requires cgroups and segfaults if there is no cgroups support.<< | 07:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589 | 07:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589#c4 | 07:34 |
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| Maxdamantus | to be fair, I'm pretty sure you can still create your own cgroups alongside systemd. | 07:39 |
| Maxdamantus | I'm not too familiar with them, though I'm fairly sure I tried that a few years ago and it didn't seem like my cgroup would have interferred with systemd's ones or vice versa. | 07:41 |
| Maxdamantus | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Cgroups#Ad-hoc_groups | 07:44 |
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| Oksanaa | Still, init system should not require this, that and everything? https://www.heise.de/forum/iX/News-Kommentare/Red-Hat-Enterprise-Linux-for-SAP-Solutions/Neulich-auf-einem-RedHat-Server/posting-31123843/show/ | 07:45 |
| Maxdamantus | I agree with that, though the other software should also generally not care. | 07:45 |
| Maxdamantus | I'm also not familiar with ohmd, but it sounds like that probably relies on cgroups as well. | 07:46 |
| Maxdamantus | and I imagine if it doesn't work alongside systemd, it's probably because ohmd is trying to control systemd's cgroups. | 07:46 |
| Oksanaa | At least, ohmd doesn't try to be an init system at the same time :-) | 07:47 |
| * Oksanaa doesn't understand cgroups well enough to know if it makes sense to "grant some daemon exclusive access to this functionality" | 07:48 | |
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| KotCzarny | it would be like creating firewalld that takes exclusive control of iptables, networking, app network rights, that will run in init 1, had a lot of bugs, 'simplified' config for users while at the same time made it more complicated, required bunch of custom binaries to control etc | 07:52 |
| KotCzarny | i'm still amazed those guys didnt went that way yet | 07:52 |
| sicelo | Juesto: mer was not Nokia's project and so doesn't count as a 'Maemo.' I don5 recall that it even used Hildon | 07:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | KotCzarny: oh they didn't? are you sure? | 07:54 |
| KotCzarny | dont know, havent checked | 07:54 |
| KotCzarny | but i suspect it would make some news and fuss | 07:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think system D ate iptables | 07:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | networkd anybody? | 07:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/firealld/networkd/ | 07:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=systemd-networkd-IP-Forward | 07:56 |
| Juesto | Oksanaa: nothing about allwinner a33 tablet | 07:57 |
| Juesto | yet | 07:57 |
| Juesto | sicelo: oh... derp | 07:57 |
| KotCzarny | eh | 07:57 |
| sicelo | :-) | 07:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>The firewall manipulation helpers are used for establishing NAT rules. This support in systemd is provided by libiptc, the library used for communicating with the Linux kernel's Netfilter and changing iptables firewall rule-sets. << | 07:58 |
| sicelo | KotCzarny: they're one step ahead :-) | 07:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so they didn't grab netfilters/iptables/whatever the name completely yet since it's kernel land | 07:59 |
| Maxdamantus | netfilter = kernel, iptables = userspace stuff that configures it | 08:00 |
| KotCzarny | as i've said, they try to be both in kernel and userland, breaking separation and security of that model at the same time | 08:00 |
| KotCzarny | so, did they implement remote management yet? | 08:01 |
| KotCzarny | or just stick to exploiting own bugs for that? ;) | 08:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, of course. It pissed lennart to no end that linus doesn't eat lennart's BS without bitching about it and rejects it instead | 08:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | remote management? only via HTML frontend ;-P | 08:02 |
| KotCzarny | which reminds me i should add html frontend to oscp-core | 08:03 |
| KotCzarny | har har | 08:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're free to do that, OSCP is an app. ÜID1 shouldn't | 08:04 |
| KotCzarny | that would make it accessible from any html capable device | 08:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PID* | 08:04 |
| KotCzarny | yup | 08:04 |
| Juesto | still curious about mer and all that tbh | 08:11 |
| sicelo | -- sailfish | 08:15 |
| Juesto | oh? | 08:18 |
| Juesto | so it's sailfish clone? | 08:18 |
| * Juesto shakes head | 08:19 | |
| KotCzarny | other way i think | 08:19 |
| Juesto | hmm | 08:19 |
| Juesto | *perplexed* | 08:19 |
| KotCzarny | Sailfish OS (also styled as SailfishOS[4] or abbreviated to SFOS) is a general purpose Linux distribution used commonly as a mobile operating system combining the Linux kernel for a particular hardware platform, the open-source Mer core stack of middleware, a proprietary UI contributed by Jolla or an open source UI, and other third-party components.[1][2] | 08:19 |
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| KotCzarny | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS | 08:20 |
| KotCzarny | just read the first few paragraphs that explain what comes where | 08:20 |
| sicelo | thanks KotCzarny | 08:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | or just look at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/talk.pdf#6 | 09:11 |
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| Juesto | moblin is defunct or...? idk just remembered about that | 09:40 |
| sicelo | tizen :) | 09:42 |
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| Juesto | Samsung smarttv.... | 09:44 |
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| KotCzarny | anyway, oscp-0.9.81 uploaded. special n8x0 release | 11:21 |
| KotCzarny | isnt it nice to have app that can play current formats on a device 10+ years old? | 11:22 |
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| drathir | KotCzarny: bump of ssl/tls i guess probably woulld be nice too... | 17:45 |
| KotCzarny | ssl? | 17:46 |
| drathir | openssl^ | 17:47 |
| KotCzarny | that topic was discussed on the channel few times, it's not trivial because higher openssl versions aren't compatible with old apps | 17:48 |
| drathir | KotCzarny: yea im aware of that he best choice probably two version provided old and new, and old app against old build and new against new one... | 17:49 |
| drathir | but kinda lot of work/rebuild... | 17:50 |
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| sicelo | answer - maemo leste | 17:55 |
| * sicelo hides | 17:55 | |
| KotCzarny | it's not showtime ready yet | 17:55 |
| drathir | or even not sure if still possible build new openssl with flags enabled for old functions but not sure how lon them will be still available, and still first idea better two separate... | 17:55 |
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| Juesto | depends | 18:05 |
| Juesto | ssl 2.0 doesn't go well with tls 1.2 or sth | 18:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sicelo: rather maemo leste? answer: what drathir suggested and leste doesn't really do: go ahead without dropping backward compatibility. AIUI in leste you would need to recompile *all* (SSL-depending?) apps, so leste isn't the answer but rather the duplication and potentiation of the situation on fremantle in that regard | 19:11 |
| freemangordon | I don;t see anything stopping us from providing openssl 0.9.8 in leste | 19:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | you should :-) | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though with armhf you will need to recompile every app anyway | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aiui | 19:17 |
| freemangordon | yes. and not only for armhf but also for x64 and arm64 ;) | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then it doesn't matter when you provide/link against newest openssl | 19:18 |
| freemangordon | it does, as APIs are not compatible | 19:18 |
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| freemangordon | so it would mean less porting | 19:18 |
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| freemangordon | which remands me we're near to the point we'll have to port certman :). That would be fun | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think an OS of this (sorry) limited scale regarding users and devs will fail like a 2 dozen others I've seen failing, when you don't have an existing convenient pool of readily usable apps | 19:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's the chicken/egg problem, always | 19:21 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: sure we may fail. Though, we HAVE those apps already in the repos | 19:22 |
| freemangordon | they just need to be recompiled | 19:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I hope all the best for leste that >90% will just build without any issues | 19:23 |
| freemangordon | see, if "users" don;t want/need free mobile OS, so be it | 19:23 |
| freemangordon | exactly | 19:23 |
| freemangordon | also, I expect similar percentage to be binary compatible on armel | 19:24 |
| freemangordon | but we still don;t have enough of the "bas" to start such tests | 19:24 |
| KotCzarny | hard part is getting image/installer generic enough for the majority | 19:24 |
| KotCzarny | most users just ask 'where is the image for my XYZ device' | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I admit I'm not really savvy to judge on the ABI-compatibility between armel and armhf | 19:24 |
| freemangordon | KotCzarny: which is a problem of HW/kernel | 19:25 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: In short - there is no such compatibility :) | 19:25 |
| KotCzarny | some of them posses ability to piece/compile os given the recipe | 19:25 |
| KotCzarny | but most just want readily working thingy | 19:25 |
| freemangordon | KotCzarny: I think we'll just provide online installer for devuan, so, as long as your device can boot to devuan, you're fine | 19:26 |
| KotCzarny | and it's especially sore in arm land | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: do you work on arm64 yet? | 19:27 |
| freemangordon | I know, but without us doing something in the userland it will never change. Not that we're guaranteed to have that change with leste, but still | 19:27 |
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| KotCzarny | i'm doing h3droid, which is targetting one specific soc, and there are people without the skill to just write the .img.xz to sdcard, boot it and select their board model | 19:28 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: no, I don;t have HW, but I am pretty sure it will be fine as most of the develpmnet done by me was on x64 | 19:28 |
| KotCzarny | and it's sad, but there is a chance with few specific devices supported it will fly | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: what do you think about this (SoC)? https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A64/A64-OLinuXino/open-source-hardware | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | KotCzarny: I think we can provide image, given you can boot upstream kernel on the particular device | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: afaik Wizzup has one (or plans to get) | 19:30 |
| freemangordon | that'd be one of the supported targets afaik | 19:30 |
| freemangordon | see https://maemo-leste.github.io/pages/allwinner-a20-lime2-status.html | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Allwinner A20[1](sun7i) 2 x Cortex-A7 CPU-cores || Allwinner A64[4](sun50i) 4 x Cortex-A53 CPU-core | 19:32 |
| freemangordon | Maili GPU, right? | 19:32 |
| KotCzarny | A33 is also sweet target, plenty of sub 50usd ips display tablets | 19:33 |
| freemangordon | yes | 19:33 |
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| freemangordon | but, we still have problems with Mali there, I really hope this will be solved soon | 19:33 |
| KotCzarny | and the nice thing is that support for mali and video accel engines are being done | 19:33 |
| freemangordon | where? | 19:33 |
| freemangordon | ah | 19:34 |
| freemangordon | "being" done | 19:34 |
| KotCzarny | yeah, did you see the VE kickstarter? | 19:34 |
| freemangordon | no | 19:34 |
| KotCzarny | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bootlin/allwinner-vpu-support-in-the-official-linux-kernel | 19:34 |
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| freemangordon | ah, VPU (DSP) | 19:35 |
| KotCzarny | first stretch goal is also ticked off | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>GPU: Mali400, Mali400-MP2, SGX544 or PowerVR G6230 Graphics Procesor Unit, supporting OpenGL ES2.<< | 19:35 |
| KotCzarny | so basically any Axx series will get hw video decoding open sourced and mainlined | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | friggin useful¡ | 19:35 |
| freemangordon | KotCzarny: and what about GPU? any news there? | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://linux-sunxi.org/Allwinner_SoC_Family | 19:36 |
| KotCzarny | apart from that mripard blog entry | 19:36 |
| freemangordon | mhm, anything else? | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, Mali400: http://linux-sunxi.org/Mali400 | 19:37 |
| freemangordon | as drivers are broken ATM | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Mali-400 MP2 1 2 256 KiBA20 (sun7i), A23 (sun8i), A33, H3 (sun8i), A64 A64 | 19:37 |
| KotCzarny | that amd guy is still the hope | 19:37 |
| freemangordon | which one, link? | 19:38 |
| KotCzarny | https://github.com/yuq/linux-lima/tree/lima-4.13/drivers/gpu/drm/lima | 19:38 |
| freemangordon | ah, lima | 19:38 |
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| KotCzarny | but not the old lima | 19:38 |
| KotCzarny | yuq took over | 19:38 |
| freemangordon | does it work at all? | 19:39 |
| KotCzarny | haven't really checked, probably wizzup or folks on #linux-sunxi might say more | 19:39 |
| freemangordon | Wizzup was too busy with leste stuff lately ;) | 19:40 |
| freemangordon | but I'll ask him | 19:40 |
| freemangordon | as I have A33 in front of me | 19:40 |
| freemangordon | gathering dust because of unusable GPU accell | 19:41 |
| KotCzarny | well, you might get that tree and try out | 19:41 |
| freemangordon | 4.13? | 19:41 |
| KotCzarny | yup | 19:41 |
| KotCzarny | master seems to be unused | 19:42 |
| freemangordon | what about userspace? mesa? | 19:42 |
| KotCzarny | since it's being done as generic drm driver, probably | 19:43 |
| freemangordon | and modesetting I gues | 19:43 |
| freemangordon | *guess | 19:43 |
| KotCzarny | there is mesa-lima repo too | 19:43 |
| KotCzarny | https://github.com/yuq/mesa-lima | 19:43 |
| KotCzarny | so probably need both | 19:43 |
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| Wizzup | I am not so sure that lima does anything useful in mesa yet | 19:51 |
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| Wizzup | freemangordon: I also have Olimex OLinuXino A64 | 19:51 |
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| Wizzup | specifically regarding providing old and unsupported openssl libs -- what could go wrong :) | 19:52 |
| freemangordon | actually they ARE supported by centos AFAIK ;) | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: so what's your personal "sweetspot" SoC? | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | max grunt and still open enough | 19:53 |
| freemangordon | omap3 :) | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LOL | 19:53 |
| KotCzarny | :> | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why not OMAP5? | 19:54 |
| Wizzup | qualcomm socks with adreno gpus are not that badf | 19:54 |
| Wizzup | s/badf/bad/ | 19:54 |
| infobot | Wizzup meant: qualcomm socks with adreno gpus are not that bad | 19:54 |
| Wizzup | s/socks/socs/ wat | 19:54 |
| KotCzarny | aren't qualcomm inception socs? computer in a computer? | 19:54 |
| * freemangordon have to go afk | 19:55 | |
| freemangordon | bbl | 19:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qualcomm sounds nasty. I seem to recall they got a record for not being open | 19:55 |
| Wizzup | ifc6410 works quite nicely on mainline | 19:55 |
| Wizzup | including opengl and opengles by a free driver | 19:55 |
| KotCzarny | i suspect their recent move to openness doesnt involve sharing all details | 19:55 |
| Wizzup | https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/arch/arm/boot/dts/qcom-apq8064-ifc6410.dts | 19:56 |
| KotCzarny | ie. they could just show you what they want you to | 19:56 |
| KotCzarny | and keep real cpus hidden and working behind | 19:56 |
| Wizzup | right - there's many aspects to this of course | 19:56 |
| Wizzup | but if you want a powerful yet mostly supported (with foss gpu driver) soc, that one works | 19:56 |
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| Wizzup | freemangordon: I will try mali again a bit later on a20, I got module and dts to work fine, just had trouble with userspace and debugging it wasn't obvious IIRC | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Wizzup: who created that DT and based on what? | 20:01 |
| Wizzup | linaro did a lot of work | 20:01 |
| Wizzup | https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/log/arch/arm/boot/dts/qcom-apq8064-ifc6410.dts | 20:01 |
| Wizzup | main issue I had with the board that is gets too hot and downclocks | 20:02 |
| Wizzup | but the opengl driver is best on all of arm platforms :) | 20:02 |
| Wizzup | of all of* | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I always got the same problem with that stuff - there's no reference to any datasheet or TRM | 20:03 |
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| Wizzup | yes, that is a problem with I think all major SoC vendors now | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically somebody throws some code over the wall and you can check if it works or not, but not really fix or improve it, or understand what it really does | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "the code is the documentation" comes to a dead end when looking at device drivers | 20:06 |
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| Wizzup | it's impressive how well it works though | 20:08 |
| KotCzarny | as long the code is correct | 20:09 |
| KotCzarny | and matches the binaries | 20:09 |
| KotCzarny | 'oh, hey, we forget to include few essential bugfixes' | 20:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | from a security audit perspective as well as from a FOSS perspective it's a failed approach | 20:10 |
| Wizzup | yeah, so it depends on the definition of open -- open drivers or open specs | 20:11 |
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| Wizzup | (or both) | 20:11 |
| KotCzarny | both | 20:12 |
| Wizzup | well, sure, but he asked about a sweetspot | 20:12 |
| Wizzup | he didn't even ask me, but still, I like talking about arm socs | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what REALLY pisses me off is FSF supporting that approach | 20:12 |
| Wizzup | yeah, fsf is not fhf :P | 20:13 |
| Wizzup | kinda sad | 20:13 |
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| * drathir remember was mentioned that openssl get build flag to enable old one but it need extra switch to enable and in future will be deleted from build flags too... | 20:24 | |
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