IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2018-03-04

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KotCzarnynice, oscp-0.9.80 working just fine on n80010:05
KotCzarnyeat this perishable software!10:05
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LantiziaLo, looking at my n900 at the moment... wondering what to do with it... does anyone need one? because I'm a bit stumped what to do with it14:05
Lantizialets face it maemo 5 isn't going to get any radical overhaul any time soon - no alt os's other than andriod (and then very out of date) - and I think nokia/ms still haven't given 100% of all source code for hardware drivers if I'm right?14:06
Lantiziaso long term it's a lemon that'll stay in the past14:06
Lantiziafew unique features I see it having (v.s. lots of other random arm/atom based embedded crap - that I'm also in the process of *judging*) is the keyboard, the built in wifi, the radio transmit/receive and the irDA14:07
syLantizia: try maemo leste or postmarketOS14:07
sythey're the current community projects14:07
Lantiziai threw my zaurus sl-5500 out the other month - similar reason14:07
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Lantiziasy - ok i'll look14:08
Lantiziasy, maemo 7?  there was never a 6!14:08
syWindows 914:08
Lantiziatrue :D - tell me that leste is at least deb/apt based again though?14:09
sicelosome consider harmattan/MeeGo to have been 614:09
syLantizia: yep14:09
sybased on devuan14:09
Lantiziaoh thank f for that14:09
Lantiziadevuan!?  oh - that crap14:10
Lantiziabut better than nothing i guess14:10
Lantiziaperhaps this little guy has a future after all14:12
Vajbwhat's wrong with devuan? Im using it on my server machine and i've been pleased so far.14:18
Lantiziai think its reason forking was tbh elitism14:19
Vajbi took it more of "not putting all the eggs in one basket"14:20
Vajbalso "we did it because we could"14:20
Lantiziai see systemd as doing more to unite the linux distro's than lsb has ever achieved - and its long overdue14:21
Hurriandoesn't maemo 5 use upstart?14:22
Hurrianswitching to systemd and rewriting init scripts may be a pain point for updating packages for M714:22
Hurrianso yeah, totally understand if a move to systemd isn't in the cards for Leste yet14:23
freemangordonwe have to rewrite init scripts anyways as upstart is no more14:24
Vajbbut why would we need united distros?14:24
Lantizia"more to unite" - not "united"14:24
freemangordoncomeon, lets not put everything and the kitchen sink in pid 0 of embedded device14:25
Vajbwell semantics, but my question stands14:25
Lantiziaexcept your question is based on the idea i'd want them "united" - didn't say that.14:25
Vajbmore like "what if all the car manufacturers used same engine"?14:26
Lantiziaall linux distro's do use the same car engine - linux14:26
Vajboh i thought it more as all have four wheels and a box for passengers, but ok14:27
Hurrianfreemangordon: ah, Leste switches to sysvinit? neat, anywhere I can read a design document on M7?14:28
freemangordonno, openrc14:28
Hurrianbeen out of the loop a while14:28
Lantiziaa "GNU/Linux" distro (as much as I hate the term, but I say this to exclude very custom things and things like Android) - should have more in common with each other than gnu tools and a linux kernel14:28
freemangordonHurrian: design doc, no ATM, but you can get some idea from
freemangordoncheck "news" section as well14:29
Lantiziasystemd is a step in the right direction... as is wayland/flatpak14:30
HurrianCalls on ofono, mainline kernel on RX51, and battery via UPower? :o14:30
Hurriannow I _really_ have to dig my N900 out14:30
freemangordonLantizia: I guess you not that mantra - do one think, but do it well14:30
freemangordonhmm, another typo day14:31
Lantiziaoh thing14:31
sixwheeledbeastfreemangordon: +1 I was just typing that14:31
freemangordonLantizia: I guess you know that mantra - do one thing, but do it well14:31
freemangordonsystemd fails in both AFAIK14:31
LantiziaI do but the kernel hardly does 1 thing14:31
freemangordonoh, sure it does - provides interface to userspace to access hardware14:32
freemangordonthis is the thing that kernel does14:32
Lantiziadepends on how much you abstract that one thing in an english-spoken sentence :P14:32
freemangordonstill, this is what kernel is supposed to do14:33
LantiziaI'm sure systemd guys would say (paraphrasing wikipedia) - provides the basic building blocks for a linux system.14:33
Lantiziajust as there are many features to those "blocks"... there are many features of linux :D14:34
freemangordonbut, it is not small building blocks, but a huge rock mountain, with lots of caves ;)14:34
freemangordonanyway, /me is back to REing stuff14:35
freemangordonas a side note - leste is not really bound to the init system, so if it turns out we made a mistake with devuan, we'll just have to tweak a couple of scripts here and there and it will still work14:36
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KotCzarnyLantizia: systemd is wrong on many levels, bad idea to 'do everything by itself', bad code quality, bad user interaction from devs14:55
KotCzarnylinux (unix) mentality is doing small code blocks that do one thing, but do it perfect14:56
KotCzarnyand building os from those blocks14:56
KotCzarnysystemd is trying to be os in itself and failing hard to provide secure and flexible environment14:57
Lantiziathe madness was already there, systemd is just organising the madness and giving it a name that people can point at14:58
KotCzarnywhy there are so many different distros? because you cant have one product that will please everyone14:58
KotCzarnyunifying them isnt going to win over users, more in reverse14:59
Lantiziaanyone who judges systemd entirely on its technical merit or past ethos of unix/linux is incapable of seeing the bigger problem or vision14:59
Lantiziait's like pepsi vs coke :D14:59
KotCzarnyyes, vision, there were posts from systemd devs and their vision14:59
KotCzarnyno, it's like fastfood vs availability of versatile gourmets15:00
Lantiziasystemd isn't your fear (as anyone is allowed to write anything right? no matter how they think it should work), it's the possibility that people will get too reliant on systemd and assume it's always there - that it'll be a big dependancy15:01
KotCzarnysure, then please use it15:02
KotCzarnybut dont force feed the others15:02
Lantiziawell i'd argue that gcc (and a whole whack of other utilities) has been in that position for years - and no one complains bitterly (ok some do) when they hear it being called GNU/Linux15:02
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Lantizia"a linux distro" in my head is too broad... but a "a debian-based distro" is too specific (and just gets itself into a rhel.vs.debian.vs.other-more-minor-players type situation)... there should be something inbetween that makes it a common base15:03
KotCzarnyyes, it's called linux kernel15:04
KotCzarnyluckily they won't allow braindead code from systemd devs into there15:04
Lantiziaand whilst we've enjoyed *assuming* everyone is likely running for a desktop app (not by force, just because that how it fell)... it'd be nice for authors of system daemons to know what to expect for working with the system too (e.g. init)15:04
Lantiziasome stuff should just be staples of a "linux distro"15:05
siceloyour "should" should actually be "could"  :-/15:05
Lantiziabut probably should have another name (as long as its not GNU/Linux - yuck)15:05
KotCzarnything is, trying unification is wrong in itself15:05
Lantiziahow? you can always go it alone anyway?  Android did15:06
KotCzarnybecause what works for you, wont work for others15:06
KotCzarnyandroid goes commercial way15:06
KotCzarnythey dont want you to mess with them15:06
Lantizia"some android"15:06
KotCzarnythey want to sell you the product15:06
KotCzarnyif you think about the same reasons, go away15:06
Lantiziai'm not suggesting that there be some odd merging (in an inseparable sense) of linux and systemd - they'd always continue to be seperate15:07
KotCzarnylinux is about freedom of code, choice etc15:07
KotCzarnyand no, systemd wont happen in maemo15:07
sixwheeledbeastTake Maemo for instance. One reason for the future of Maemo being based on Devuan going forward is the lack of systemd. systemd and Maemo would conflict with cgroups, there are legacy systems that systemd will not work with due to it's design.15:07
Lantiziai'm not (and systemd isn't) trying to take away that choice15:07
Lantiziaif you're upset at anyone - be upset at the distro's that chose to use it15:07
KotCzarnyof course you can start your own distro that would work in that way15:08
KotCzarnyLantizia: and yes, systemd is taking away the freedom of choice15:08
Lantiziano it isn't - you don't have to use it15:08
KotCzarnysure? then show me how you will do it on current debian15:09
KotCzarnytry it15:09
siceloso what's your point? :-/15:09
Lantiziait's debian that took your choice away15:09
KotCzarnythat's something new15:09
KotCzarnynow systemd advocated will blame distros for choosing it :>15:09
KotCzarnythere is a way for such attitude, toxic15:10
Lantiziayou seem to be suggesting that certain software has no right to exist or exist in certain forms - thats just crazy15:10
sicelolooks like it's the other way round Lantizia15:11
sixwheeledbeastEh? I dont get it.  "debian took your choice away" yet you say "devuan!?  oh - that crap"15:11
sicelo14:10 < Lantizia> devuan!?  oh - that crap15:11
Lantiziait is what it is - you don't like how some (e.g. debian) have chosen the ones they'll put together in a suite15:11
Lantiziasicelo, yeah - i'm not a fan, so?15:11
Lantiziastill beats the heck out of something rhel based15:11
KotCzarnyso you are contradicting yourself15:11
KotCzarnyand that puts your other sentences in bad light15:12
Lantiziait does?15:12
KotCzarnyit's called logic15:12
Lantiziadon't see it15:12
KotCzarnyhumans use that for thinking15:12
KotCzarnyand to extrapolate facts into opinions15:13
KotCzarnyand theories15:13
Lantiziajust because i think its a crap reason for a fork - doesn't mean i want it to not exist15:13
KotCzarnyyes, it was the reason15:13
Lantiziayou've combined two things there15:13
KotCzarnybecause taking out systemd required adding few other packages15:13
KotCzarnythat were TIED to systemd15:13
KotCzarnywhich debian refused to have15:13
Lantiziaso?  how does this relate to what you were personally attacking me for?15:14
KotCzarnyi'm not attacking you, that's another thing15:14
sixwheeledbeastI don't think anyone is attacking anyone, BTW15:14
sicelono one attacked you at anytime15:14
Lantiziait's like if I said windows was crap - it's just an opinion... but i've no right/means to make it no exist or exist in another way15:14
Lantiziawell your quoting me as though it's proof of me being illogical15:15
Lantiziai don't see it - it's coming off personal15:15
* sicelo uses systemd on both laptop and desktop btw - debian :)15:16
Lantiziawell thanks KotCzarny - caught be red handed15:19
Lantiziaoops! another typo... will you spot it?15:19
KotCzarnytypo would be youre15:20
sixwheeledbeastNo-one working Devuan wanted a fork in the first place it was a necessary evil. I fail to see how thats a crap reason to go to that effort.15:20
KotCzarnybtw. real unifying would be creating flexible distro that anyone could EASILY customize15:21
Lantiziasixwheeledbeast, I think if it was a gentoo/slackware fork or something like that (and lets say I was a big user of one of them) - i'd have not called it 'crap'15:21
Lantiziabut I think it shows a failure to really get what debian is trying to achieve (or at least has been achieving)15:22
KotCzarnydistros exist because people had specific needs unfullfilled by existing solutions15:22
KotCzarnyone could argue that any debian-like/rh-like distro shouldnt exist because there was no enough reason to split15:24
Lantiziai mean if devuan had started something fresh (not a fork) and just used the deb packaging format - i'd also not likely call it 'crap'15:24
KotCzarnyyet, they do, and they work out for people15:24
Lantiziabut it just defeats the point of debian in my mind15:24
Lantiziawhich is that of a common, easy to install, secure, minimal base15:24
LantiziaKotCzarny, most don't fiddle with the base though - e.g. mint15:25
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Vajbi think that in ideal world, there would be a "webpage" in where you build your own distro just by choosing what you want in it.15:39
KotCzarnywell, there is lfs15:40
KotCzarnybut 'some assembly required' ;)15:40
Vajboh, guess i'll have to read up about it15:41
Vajboo, by description it sounds exactly what i was picturing in my thoughts15:42
Vajbi've been hacked!15:43
KotCzarnynope, you were just reading wrong parts of the internet15:43
Vajbmaybe even alfs15:44
Vajbno. I meant that i had an original idea and it was already there15:45
Vajbbtw jk oc15:45
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DocScrutinizer05ohmy, why doesn't any knowledgeable user kick in when >>nokia/ms still haven't given 100% of all source code for hardware drivers<< and >>maemo 7?  there was never a 6!<< ?23:50
* DocScrutinizer05 pukes a bit at systemd23:54
DocScrutinizer05there was a time when all UNIX was more or less compatible, particularly regarding no dependencies on a "init system"23:56
DocScrutinizer05then came systemd because "new lette stuff is better" and made a linux flavor that's not compatible to other unices any more, and now that crap is "the great unifier"? ROTFL23:57
DocScrutinizer05leete, even23:57
DocScrutinizer05even when it were true that before systemd there would have been a mess of incompatible init systems (which is a lie), then

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