IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2017-11-18

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CatButts>Thus the binaries from CSSU-Thumb will not work in a "normal system", and several things like uBoot or flashing --flash-only=kernel stop working the way they used to03:11
CatButtsin what way uBoot will not work the same way?03:12
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MaxdamantusI think it means if you compile uBoot with Thumb.03:47
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DocScrutinizer05it will make your system segfault10:21
DocScrutinizer05the point is about system segfaulting with stock kernel and thumb binaries10:22
DocScrutinizer05uBoot or flashing --flash-only=kernel  both install stock jernel10:23
MaxdamantusWell, u-boot probably won't make your system segfault, because u-boot probably doesn't use virtual memory and "segmentation fault" is a term for when a higher-level OS decides that a page access is invalid.10:24
DocScrutinizer05the benefit from a thumb system is arguable, I think for a lot of users the complications weigh more than the increased free RAM10:24
* Maxdamantus ultimately wants to use a normal Linux distribution, which probably means using something like Debian's "armel" port.10:26
MaxdamantusSince armhf relies on a non-bugged implementation of Thumb-2.10:27
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CatButtsso it's gonna be a pain in the butt if I get power kernel, uboot and thumb cssu?10:29
MaxdamantusI think u-boot should be pretty much irrelevant.10:29
Maxdamantusaiui, the only time you'd think about Thumb issues with u-boot is when actually compiling u-boot.10:30
MaxdamantusSince if you decide to tell your compiler to use thumb instructions when building u-boot, it won't run correctly on the N900.10:30
CatButtsI decide not to compile and use precompiled binaries :P10:31
MaxdamantusIf you have a correctly running u-boot (which is what you'd get if you acquire it from the maemo repository or compile it yourself using the default configuration for rx-51, it shouldn't affect the stability of the kernel you boot from it)10:31
Maxdamantusmisplaced closing bracket there, but meh.10:32
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CatButtsmissplaced null terminator :P10:32
sixwheeledbeastpower kernel has the workaround just like cssu-kernel (thumb)10:36
CatButtsso, what complications can I expect, besides that of running thumb code with non-thumb kernel?10:41
DocScrutinizer05just booting into uBoot default jernel or reflashing kernel will make your system segafault and prolly you will have to do a full rootfs aka COMBINED reflash to recover10:45
MaxdamantusWhy not just do a reflash of the kernel to be one supporting the thumb workaround?10:46
Maxdamantus(or a u-boot image with such a kernel appended)10:47
DocScrutinizer05most likely you also can't run binaries from your system when you booted up to rescueOS - again stock kernel with thumb binaries10:47
DocScrutinizer05restoring a BM backup after a reflassh will reder your system bootlooping, you need to install either powerkernal or uBoot manually before you restore10:49
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if somebody (robbiethe1st?) could pimp BM to backup and restore kernels too10:50
DocScrutinizer05heck, that would be a nice workpackage for bored developers lacking ideas what to do10:51
* Maxdamantus has always disliked the idea of software responsible for maintaining the main OS filesystem messing around with kernels and partition layout.10:53
infobotN900 uBoot is a siamese twin binary [uBoot+stockMaemoKernel] that resides in kernel NAND partition /dev/mtd3 aka "kernel". You can't uninstall it, rather you'll nuke it when you flash/install another kernel like stock maemo kernel or powerkernel. To start other than stock maemo kernel via uBoot, you have to provide the according kernel image files, or
DocScrutinizer05CatButts: to put it utterly clearly: unstalling uBoot replaces any kernel you may have installed by uBoot+stock-kernel. Install uBoot on a thumb system and repoot:-> doomed, since bootloop10:57
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: CatButts: to put it utterly clearly: installing uBoot replaces any kernel you may have installed by uBoot+stock-kernel. Install uBoot on a thumb system and repoot:-> doomed, since bootloop10:57
DocScrutinizer05you need to install uBoot and uboot-powerkernel-image "atomically", I.E without any boot in between10:58
DocScrutinizer05if you mess up for whatever reason (battery empty, system locks up, whatever), you're lost and have to do a full reflash10:59
MaxdamantusWhy not just do a reflash of the right u-boot image/kernel?11:01
DocScrutinizer05you most likely also want to tweak uBoot so it boots to powerkernel by default11:02
DocScrutinizer05and you never may touch the uBoot powerkernel image after that and break it in any way, since otherwise, you guessed it: bootloop and pending full reflash11:03
DocScrutinizer05well you could try fixing stuff via rescueOS11:03
DocScrutinizer05thumb works just great... as long as all works. When you need any recovery mode or want to mess with your system, you're usually pretty much on your own and nothing works like described in wiki etc11:05
DocScrutinizer05that being said, I didn't need any recovery or felt like messing with my system in a few years now. So I as well could have installed powerkernel and thumb years ago and probably hardly would recall the fact11:07
DocScrutinizer05you *might* want to keep a disk image of complete rootfs (and /opt) on your eMMC or uSD and learn how to flash NAND and eMMC ext3 partition from within uBoot menu11:11
DocScrutinizer05when however uBoot itself gets upset, you're lost11:12
* DocScrutinizer05 pnders to try formatting initrd NAND partition as a 'floppy'11:14
DocScrutinizer05dirty hack, ignoring bad blocks and whatnot11:14
* Maxdamantus has restored (to additional devices) by just booting into rescueOS, exporting the entire eMMC using g_file_storage then partitioning/copying stuff just using his computer.11:14
Maxdamantusand flashing using flasher.11:14
Maxdamantus(flashing the kernel)11:14
DocScrutinizer05but a rather safe place for the few additional tiny ascii files uBoot needs11:14
Maxdamantusand probably just tar over g_ether for ubifs.11:16
DocScrutinizer05for ubifs the initrd partition is too smal :-S11:16
* Maxdamantus has a separate partition on eMMC for kernels, could put initrds in there if he wanted them.11:18
* DocScrutinizer05 also wonders how hard it could be to create a FIASCO image with powerkernel, and another one with fully configured uBoot + PK image + default boot to PK11:22
infobot[backupmenu], or one-click install handling dependency issues:
DocScrutinizer05  >>*Can I restore my BackupMenu images through the Nokia Flasher?*  Not currently. This is a planned feature, but not in the current version. It -is- possible to convert a BackupMenu image to a Nokia Flasher rootfs image, but it requires a Linux PC with mtd-utils<<   Hmm does it really?11:33
Maxdamantus Well, the flasher image normally has an actual ubifs image in it.11:34
Maxdamantus$ epm -qf `which mkfs.ubifs`11:36
MaxdamantusPresumably if you can get mkfs.ubifs to compile/run on Windows, you could do it there.11:37
MaxdamantusI imagine there's some chance it would already just work on macOS.11:37
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CatButtsis fancy maemo package manager just frontend to apt-get or is there more to it?11:42
CatButtssay, if I decide to apt-get a particular application instead of using maemo's package manager11:42
MaxdamantusI think there's slightly more to it, but it basically works the same way as apt-get.11:43
MaxdamantusI think the categorisation it has might be an extra maemo thing, but you should still be able to install all packages through apt-get.11:44
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CatButtshmmm, I installed power kernel and noticed slight graphical corruption in the spinning loading animation at top of UI12:35
CatButtsthat's always a nice sign :P12:35
DocScrutinizer05CatButts: there's more to it. You may use apt-get install if you watch carefully what you're doing12:36
DocScrutinizer05NEVER do apt-get upgrade or dist-upgrade or autoremove12:37
DocScrutinizer05also you don't want to edit /etc/sources.list12:41
DocScrutinizer05do that via HAM12:41
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, hamvsfam is, or
infobotit has been said that speedyham is 30 times faster than HAM, now included in CSSU.12:48
CatButtsFAM is nice12:55
CatButtsthe one thing that bugs me about it is that it leaves you guessing which marked package prevents you from installing the rest12:56
CatButtsdue to dependencies12:56
CatButtsso you discard whole list12:56
CatButtsah right, it does if you go through log13:09
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infobotwell, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU), or actually for anything since ~speedyHAM. It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default. In short, it's been identified as source of system corruption and thus deprecated, or see ~hamvsfam14:42
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CatButtshere's a funny thing I noticed about charging15:33
CatButtsI plug phone in usb with 21%15:33
CatButtsprobably enabled mass storage15:33
CatButtsindicator sticks to 21% the whole time15:34
CatButtsI reboot phone15:34
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CatButtsmaybe I'm daydreaming15:39
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infobotbme is probably
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CatButts>replacement goals16:59
CatButts>Not make the battery explode.16:59
CatButtsthe faux readings are probably result of me mucking around with kernels17:00
kuzzmiHey folks, not sure I'm in the right place. Nevertheless, I'm currently looking at N800/N810/N900 as a Linux PDA for some occasional SSH'ing and terminal usage. How good is it nowadays? Which would you pick? Which has a better keyboard? Would you recommend it to a nerdy person, who's living in the terminal?17:03
CatButtsfor starters, the n900 has keypad which might be either 4 keys for direction or 2 keys for direction with modifier for other two directions, depending on locale17:04
kuzzmiSounds sweet17:05
CatButts*depending on chosen keyset from options17:05
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kuzzmiAnd for the rest? Are the keys clicky?17:12
KotCzarnynot clicky17:14
KotCzarnybut big fingers will be bad17:14
KotCzarnyas for pda, hw kb is nice, and n900 prices are so low its not worth to look at n8x017:15
KotCzarnysoftware will be a bit newer too for n90017:15
kuzzmiOk, thanks a lot. I guess I'll be a frequent guest here :) Cheers17:16
pkill9also consider installing u-boot and booting archlinux-arm if you wanna use it as a terminal device17:17
pkill9that's what i'm doing heh17:17
kuzzmiI've seen this name before, put it on my todo list17:18
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CatButtshey guise, I've been thinking19:38
CatButtsaround this parts, what's the policy on closed source binaries produced from reverse-engineering of other closed source software, uncomercially19:39
CatButtslet's say, reversing software compiled to intermediary bytecode and porting it to something like C+SDL19:41
CatButtsby hand19:42
DocScrutinizer05kuzzmi: m,any users think N900 has the best kw kbd they ever used. I strongly recommend to go with plain stock maemo5 OS for starters20:09
DocScrutinizer05plus CSSU of course20:09
infobotwell, cssu is, or (Community Seamless Software Update)20:09
KotCzarnymaemo is quite well thought out ui20:09
DocScrutinizer05CatButts: for maemo extras there's a ruls of conduct or whateveryoucallit you have to "sign" for each project you upload20:13
DocScrutinizer05and we will immediately remove any package that violates those GPL rules20:14
DocScrutinizer05community has no QA that checks each project in depth. Actually that's the big problem with extras-devel -> *-testing -> extras right now20:15
DocScrutinizer05so we can only remove packages we realize are conflicting with the GPL20:16
CatButtsdoes GPL imply open source only?20:16
KotCzarnyto see, use and modify20:17
CatButtsso where does user-made non-free go?20:18
KotCzarnyin non-free20:18
CatButtsand what are the policies there?20:18
__axon__is there a patch for split screen in maemo?20:18
KotCzarnyno-violating any copyrights20:19
DocScrutinizer05__axon__: please elaborate20:38
KotCzarnymay be he wants non-fullscreen windows20:41
__axon__DocScrutinizer05:Sometimes it might be helful to have side by side windows.20:53
__axon__an other question: do you have any recommendations for n900 cases that protect the screen - and might be better than the sock that I am currently using ?20:54
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ShadowJKkuzzmi, I've had N800, N810 and N900. The N810 has "more keys", and for that it's sometimes better for ssh. However, the N900 keys have greater depth to them, which for me made the N900 much quicker to type on.20:56
ShadowJKAny of then would probably be excellent for ssh use20:57
__axon__anyone on cases? or split screens?21:10
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DocScrutinizer05no split screens under hildon22:11
DocScrutinizer05the screen is tiny enough22:11
DocScrutinizer05for "cases", I use a "landscape" holster22:12
DocScrutinizer05never thought of really using any additional always-on protective sleeve, though otterbox I got as a gift is pretty nice22:13
CatButtsI vaguely remember someone here wanting to smooth scratches on touchscreen with acetone22:14
CatButtsbut refraining from doing so22:14
CatButtsI am pondering lending self to that expurriment, once I get replacement screen22:15
DocScrutinizer05forget it, when you got a scratch on digitizer, all yoz possibly might do about it is car wax22:15
KotCzarnywhy not some abrasive powder + toothbrush? :P22:15
CatButtsbrushie brushie22:15
DocScrutinizer05steel wool22:15
KotCzarnyor  belt sander ftw?22:15
DocScrutinizer05*that's* it22:15
CatButtshey, I am lending my phone to SCIENCE, not brutal murder22:16
DocScrutinizer05you're doing wut?22:16
CatButtsmight as well throw whole unit in lava22:16
KotCzarnyor.. just use it as it is and stop worrying?22:17
CatButtsI am replacing digitizer and was pondering trying home remedies on the ill digitizer before replacing22:17
DocScrutinizer05try a PET water bottle for your experiments! that one is not only much cheaper, it also doesn't contain nasty silicon oil22:17
KotCzarnyi havent noticed scratched screen to be a big issue (on one of my spares)22:17
DocScrutinizer05acetone my ass22:19
* DocScrutinizer05 already figures domesheet melt away and keymat varnish getting sticky22:19
DocScrutinizer05I tried with polishing paste, dodn't work put well either22:22
MaxdamantusRegarding N900 keys, the keyboard layout I use has all printable ASCII characters mapped.22:22
DocScrutinizer05honestly if you want to try anything, try carnauba car wax22:22
Maxdamantusthere's only one character that requires two modifiers.22:23
DocScrutinizer05carefully, and immediately remove excess completely before it dries22:23
MaxdamantusI'd've liked to use the second key under the space bar for that instead, but the driver in Linux only emits a single code for both physical buttons.22:23
DocScrutinizer05so only the scratch holds a trace of wax in it22:24
DocScrutinizer05but honestly as long as the scratch isn't causing leakage of the oil, I think any cure is worse than the original issue22:25
DocScrutinizer05and I've not seen any severe scratcjhes in any of my devices so far22:26
CatButtsmine's scratchy and blurry with a single large gauge that has not yet pierced through22:27
CatButtsthe blurry bit is kinda irritating22:27
KotCzarnykeep in mind if you overdo and pierce the touchscreen layer it can stop working22:27
DocScrutinizer05it WILL stop working. Plus leak nasty silicon oil that may make the screen look blurry22:29
DocScrutinizer05or somebody already tried polishing the thing which also causes dull blurry spots, I know since I did that22:30
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Vajbhmm how about lack?22:38
Vajbthey refurbish car paint scratches with it at least22:39
DocScrutinizer05well yeah, you *might* try UV-curing special transparent cyanoacrylate for fixing broken glass22:42
KotCzarnyor just browse local classifieds ads and buy nice used screen n900 with broken usb/lcd for 5-10eur22:43
DocScrutinizer05might be even better than carnauba, But I'd practice a 100 times on PET bottles before I'd dare doing that on a expensive device22:43
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Vajbalso i've seen some protective films for screens, that claim to contain some special silicone stuff which absorbs to scratches and makes them disappear22:47
CatButtsabsorb dicks22:52
CatButtsand make them dissapear!22:52
CatButtsworst scenario22:53
DocScrutinizer05Vajb: yes, that's the same principle, fill scratches with a transparent fluid22:53
DocScrutinizer05it doesn'r "absorb scratches and make them disappear", it just makes them invisible22:54
DocScrutinizer05to really make scratches disappear in plastic, you need to recreate the surface with exactly same process used in manufacturing of the plastic film. Usually melting and sort of roll out22:57
DocScrutinizer05obviously can't get done when you don't have access to both sides of plain film22:57
CatButtsobviously can't be done when you have shit already assembled22:58
DocScrutinizer05it *might* be possible for a limited number of plastic material films to locally heat only the surface. You need *very* controlled process parameters for that22:58
* CatButts gets his waffle grill22:59
DocScrutinizer05probably you'd need *very very* hot air for very short period22:59
DocScrutinizer05maybe laser of useful wavelength and power could do too23:00
KotCzarnyor just stop worrying about them, really, work one day, buy good n900, problem solved23:00
DocScrutinizer05yes, obviously23:00
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CatButtsall this started because I wanted to try other people's silly stuff on a spent digitizer23:01
KotCzarnytime is money23:01
CatButtstell that to the guy that spent 6 months porting C to AS323:01
KotCzarnymoney is plentiful and goes all ways, your time not23:01
CatButtsand learned both in proccesss23:01
CatButtsyeah, point taken regarding the latter23:02
CatButtsbut hey, time-wasting binges23:02
CatButtsas is above porting endeavour23:03
KotCzarnyi have my n900 since 2009, not a single scratch on screen23:03
CatButtsI bought mine 2nd hand, I don't know where it got shoved23:03
KotCzarnydoing on the original battery too23:03
pkill9did you ever have any usb port problems KotCzarny?23:29
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KotCzarnyusing the same original cable/charger23:29
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KotCzarnyalways doing connect/disconnect in straight line without bending23:30
KotCzarnywort case is upward/downward bending23:31
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