IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2017-11-15

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CatButtsI assume attempting to slap a C/C++ dev environment on the N900 is a few orders of trouble00:04
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infobotmethinks gcc is the GNU Compiler Collection,
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infobotmethinks scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at, hosted by maemo now. Also at
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* CatButts straps his N900 to a large firework and crosses fingers10:16
MaxdamantusThat surely wouldn't work.10:17
MaxdamantusUnless the application is insanely stupid.10:17
MaxdamantusIt should at least expect the accelerometer to report approximately 0 acceleration throughout the flight.10:17
CatButtsI guess there is one way to find out10:18
MaxdamantusI imagine it would also expect a sharp increase in acceleration before it suddenly stops.10:18
inzi.e. build a cannon and shoot your N900 instead10:19
Maxdamantusand probably after too.10:19
inzOr a catapult / trebuchet10:19
bencoh10:17 < Maxdamantus> It should at least expect the accelerometer to report approximately 0 acceleration throughout the flight.10:21
bencohwrong :)10:21
MaxdamantusBecause the accelerometer isn't at the device's centre of mass? Maybe.10:21
bencohno, that's unrelated10:21
MaxdamantusSo where would the acceleration come from?10:22
MaxdamantusAir resistance?10:22
bencohlet's assume there is no air resistance, you'd still have a non-zero acceleration10:22
MaxdamantusFrom what?10:23
bencohm.a = m.g in our case10:23
MaxdamantusThe "acceleration" from gravity isn't something you feel.10:24
KotCzarnyhow do you FEEL any acceleration then?10:24
Maxdamantusunless you're talking about tidal forces, the internally noticable effects of gravity are from something like the Earth constantly pushing you off the geodesic you would be following if you were in unobstructed freefall.10:25
bencohMaxdamantus: you "feel" it, it just that they usually filter it10:25
MaxdamantusThat's why if you leave the N900 on a table or something, it will report approximately 9.81 m/s/s of acceleration.10:25
MaxdamantusIf it's falling it should report approximately 0 m/s/s of acceleration.10:26
KotCzarnyit should report 0 accel on a table10:26
inzthat would be useless10:26
KotCzarnytrue. forces cancel out == 0 accel10:26
KotCzarnyaccel != 0 => speed >010:26
bencohKotCzarny: you're talking about the whole device acceleration10:26
bencohhe's referring to what your accelerometer reports10:27
KotCzarnyunless you talk about sensors that dont report real accel10:27
KotCzarnythat's why it doesnt report real accel10:27
KotCzarnyjust some arbitrary force direction10:28
MaxdamantusIt reports real acceleration.10:28
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MaxdamantusThe acceleration you're thinking of is fake acceleration.10:28
KotCzarnyfalse according to 'acceleration' definition10:28
KotCzarnyF=m*a -> a=F/m10:28
KotCzarnyand according to first or second newton's law10:29
KotCzarnyon a table forces cancel out10:29
KotCzarnywhich means a=010:29
KotCzarnywhich means on a table device is NOT moving10:29
MaxdamantusYeah, Newton's laws are about fake acceleration.10:29
MaxdamantusThe real acceleration happens when the structure of the Earth pushes you upwards.10:30
KotCzarnyyou should really either rething or redefine words you use10:30
bencohwait, what?10:30
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MaxdamantusThe acceleration comes from the bottom of the rocket.10:33
Maxdamantusor equivalently, the bottom of the box sitting on the Earth.10:33
KotCzarnyyes, and it comes from the force that cancels out g10:33
KotCzarnynot cancel, but change the resulting force vector10:33
MaxdamantusThe one that pushes you off your geodesic, yes.10:34
KotCzarnywhich means F!=0 -> a>0 -> moving relative to the earth10:34
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Maxdamantusie, the force that prevents the Earth from collapsing into a black hole.10:34
Maxdamantusie, the one that pushes things away from the Earth10:34
Maxdamantusie, the strong force10:35
KotCzarnysee? more forces10:35
Maxdamantuser, weak force*10:35
KotCzarnynewtons equations were about macroscoping observation of them10:35
bencohyou're mixing everything together here, if I may way10:35
KotCzarnyon microscopic scale things might look different because of quantum effects10:35
KotCzarnybut otherwise newton laws is what we observe10:36
KotCzarnywhich means they rule our proximity10:36
MaxdamantusNewton's laws don't explain why we feel acceleration when we're standing on the ground but don't while we're falling.10:36
KotCzarnyyes, but they explain how to make things move10:37
KotCzarnyie. change force vector10:37
KotCzarnyyou dont feel acceleration.10:37
MaxdamantusOf course you feel acceleration.10:38
KotCzarnyunless you are saying that we feel it in the same way n900's sensor do10:38
KotCzarnyie. things pressing together10:38
MaxdamantusIf you're in a car and you slam the pedal .. you feel that acceleration.10:38
KotCzarnyno, you feel your seat pressing your back10:38
MaxdamantusIf you're falling and you hit the ground .. you feel that acceleration10:38
Maxdamantusif you're even just standing on the ground, you feel that acceleration.10:38
KotCzarnyyou feel the moment of force change10:38
KotCzarnyyou feel air hitting you10:38
KotCzarnyif you were free falling+accel in space, you wont feel it10:39
MaxdamantusWell, no, you feel the ground pushing your feet.10:39
inzWow, that escalated quickly.10:39
Maxdamantusotherwise you wouldn't feel any different if you were, eg, in the ISS, which has approximately the same air pressure as on Earth.10:40
KotCzarnyanywa, n900 sensor reports the ball on a spring10:40
MaxdamantusRight, and if you are able to watch the screen while dropping the N900, the ball should move towards the centre.10:41
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KotCzarnyand in THIS case, force of the spring is influenced by g10:41
KotCzarnyand other forces10:41
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KotCzarnyput that n900 in space and compare the results10:42
MaxdamantusI can see that fairly clearly when I throw it gently, so I can still see the screen.10:42
Maxdamantusthe ball goes to the centre until I catch it again.10:42
KotCzarnyor take a ball, connect 3 springs and see how it behaves in your hands10:42
KotCzarnyyou will see then WHAT it reports10:43
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MaxdamantusIf the N900 isn't moving in reference to the ground, it's going to report the same acceleration as if it were on the ground.10:44
Maxdamantusif you were implying something else, dunno.10:44
KotCzarnyno, it reports which direction the ball is sprung10:44
KotCzarnyand it reports it modified by some calibration number10:45
bencohKotCzarny: he's right about what the accelerometer will report, although I still don't understand why he said the app wouldn't work10:45
MaxdamantusI said it wouldn't work tying it to a firework.10:45
KotCzarnybut please dont rename acceleration know from school for something your body feels10:45
bencohMaxdamantus: oooh, mybad10:46
KotCzarnyball feels force10:46
KotCzarnychanges in force -> acceleration10:46
KotCzarnyerm. wrong10:46
KotCzarnyforce > 0 -> acceleration10:47
MaxdamantusRight, and if you're sitting on the surface of the Earth, you'll be experiencing approximately 1 g.10:48
KotCzarnybut you arent moving because you also experience opposite force of the ground10:49
MaxdamantusIf you get put in a G-force simulator, they can make you experience more than that.10:49
Maxdamantusand if you're inside the ISS while it's in orbit, you'll be experiencing approximately 0 g.10:49
KotCzarny~0g of the EARTH, but you will still experience force of the ship10:50
KotCzarnyas long it would be ACCELERATING10:50
MaxdamantusIt's not accelerating. It's in freefall.10:50
MaxdamantusIt's falling around the Earth.10:51
Maxdamantusokay, they occasionally use rockets to recalibrate their orbit.10:51
KotCzarnyi'm curious tho what would software report10:51
Maxdamantusbut the vast majority of the time there is practically no acceleration to the spacecraft.10:51
KotCzarnybecause it's optimized for ground operations10:52
MaxdamantusI suspect they also constantly use gyroscopes to calibrate their rotation.10:52
Maxdamantusa phone's accelerator would report 0 g.10:53
KotCzarnyit reports force then, not accel10:53
KotCzarnyjust that software recalculates it into potential accel10:53
Maxdamantus"g" is acceleration, not force.10:53
Maxdamantusforce is an acceleration multiplied by a mass.10:53
KotCzarnyyes, but i'm saying what spring reports10:53
Maxdamantuseg, if you are 50 kg and you're sitting on the surface of the Earth, the Earth is excerting (50 kg)*(1 g) of force on you.10:54
Maxdamantus(that is, 50 kg of mass)10:55
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sixwheeledbeastI doubt N900Fly is designed to be accurate, just someone learning how to use the accelometer within some code.11:09
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brolin_empey“<atk> sixwheeledbeast: every time someone asks if I have an android or apple phone I have to explain...”11:39
brolin_empeyKind of like persons incorrectly assuming that your automotive vehicle uses gasoline as opposed to diesel fuel or incorrectly assuming that your car is a 3-box design by referring to the trunk?11:39
atkI am not a car person unfortunately so I don't know what a 3 box design is.11:40
atkBut the answer is: probably.11:40
brolin_empeyOr assuming that a vehicle with an automatic transmission has a torque converter automatic transmission as opposed to a continuously variable transmission or a dual clutch transmission.11:42
brolin_empeyOr assuming that a bicycle uses a chain drive as opposed to a shaft drive.11:43
atkI'll use an analogy I can understand:11:44
atkIt's like you telling someone you're a programmer and them asking if you are a C++ programmer or a Java programmer as if those were the only two languages anyone wrote.11:45
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brolin_empeyatk: A 3-box design is a typical sedan design with 3 boxes: engine compartment, passenger compartment AKA cabin, luggage compartment AKA trunk.11:47
brolin_empeyatk: Yes, I understood you even before I replied.11:50
brolin_empeyatk: Technically, the N900 can run the Android OS (NITdroid).11:52
brolin_empeySome persons also incorrectly assume that a device with an LED display has an LCD.11:53
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brolin_empeySome persons incorrectly assume that IEEE 802.11 is only 2.4 GHz when it is now 5 GHz too.11:56
atkI was wondering though... is there some way of getting a more recent openssl on maemo?11:56
atk802.11 has like 15 different varieties11:56
atkwell, I wasn't far off, 17 according to wikipedia11:57
brolin_empeyatk: I mean a,b,g,n,ac.11:58
atkCovering 2.4, 5, 3.7, 0.054-0.79, 0.9, 60, 45 and 60 GHz11:58
atker, I said 60 twice11:58
atk60GHz seems pretty high all of a sudden11:58
atkeven a has a 3.7GHz option and that apparently has a range of up to 5000m outdoors11:59
atkthat explains what those unifi wifi transmitter things must use12:00
infobotatk meant: that explains what those airmax wifi transmitter things must use12:01
atkor not... apparently they use 5GHz12:02
atkand also airfiber12:02
atkI don't think those things are wifi anymore, they seem to be another technology12:02
sixwheeledbeastI believe the openssl currently in maemo has backports for bugfixes. There's some ABI compatibility issue? Again there was a thread about it on TMO somewhere, I found links to all the patches from 0.9.8o to 0.9.8z12:06
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atkI have 0.9.8zf installed13:11
atkah... ABI issues... the bane of everyone's existence13:15
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sixwheeledbeastzf? fmg posted ze version here
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atkis ze newer than zf?14:08
bencoherr ... doubt it14:10
atkIt would be nice if TLS 1.1 and up were supported14:12
sixwheeledbeastno, I wouldn't even think that was possible.14:12
atkI wonder what manner of backporting would be required for that.14:12
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atkit's annoying that they broke ABI14:14
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atkOr actually... It sounds more like they broke API because I can't see why ABI would be broken unless the ABI was actually completely changed by a gcc update14:14
atkah yes, they apparently broke ABI by changing their "API" to use some compat macros14:16
atkthat's pretty shitty14:16
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atkAt this point it seems like it might be easier to go through the list of packages which are proprietary and rely on the ABI and either patch them, RE them or ditch them14:17
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atkI mean, the list didn't seem that long ... let's have a look at what's on it14:17
atkah, - perfect, something I disabled as soon as I got the phone working14:18
atkI think patching the binaries would probably actually be the simplest... I mean if it's just renamed symbols.. I might look into what that entails at some point14:20
infobotsomebody said porting was
bencohpatching binaries isn't as easy as it might seem :)14:22
bencohnot always at least14:22
bencohso you usually need to RE them (then you can just build from source)14:22
atkI was looking for
bencohwhich is part of the work some people here are already undertaking14:22
bencohor rather, undertook months/years ago14:23
infobotclosed is probably or, or
sixwheeledbeastah that's a different page14:30
atkbencoh: If it's just renaming the function it might not be as hard as you think - I just did a test (And I know that different length names might cause a problem so that's still a problem to solve) where I wrote a simple library with two functions14:34
atkthe function names were the same length and I could control which one a binary called by just editing the file in vim and renaming the function in the symbol table14:34
atkI just need to see what catastrophe I might cause with ELF if I want to change the length14:35
bencohatk: here it's not really just "changing a function name" :)14:37
atkAh, but that's the cause of the ABI breakage apparently14:37
atkSo I think it really might be just that in some cases14:37
atkthe other option would be to take a newer version of openssl and write small wrapper functions for those calls14:37
atkactually, it might be possible with a combination of patching the binaries to use names which are previously unused and embedding wrappers in openssl shared object14:38
atkthat would even solve instances where a function's API changed14:38
atkI'll have to try it, I'll get pmos running on an SD card and then take these old binaries and see what errors I get when running them on new libraries14:41
atkand then see what I can fudge into openssl so that along with a simple binary patch to write mangled names to the openssl calls which have issues the things call the wrappers instead of what they expect to call14:41
atkthe only scary part of this is actually touching openssl source14:43
atkI remember trying to write something to do with x509 CSRs with openssl and it was a complete nightmare14:44
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timelessDocScrutinizer05: ping18:10
timelessdo you happen to know what the columns in the table at the bottom of this output mean / what the table is? is it a process list (in which case, it looks like ssh performed a fork-bomb)
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timeless doesn't cover it :-(18:29
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timelessit feels like a fork bomb19:03
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timelessaccording to
timelessthere shuld have been a line:19:07
timeless... [   ...] [ pid ]   uid  tgid total_vm      rss nr_ptes nr_pmds swapents oom_score_adj name19:07
timelessso i definitely have a forkbomb19:08
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Vajbdo you edit code on n900? If yes, what is the editor of choice there? I just installed pygtkeditor but it seems to use a lot processor time.19:26
Vajbcode meaning javascript at the moment...19:26
* timeless used `vi`19:29
bencohvim :)19:34
Vajbim too n00b for vi. I embrace my highlights ;)19:34
bencohwith a properly remapped keyboard, and a real xterm19:34
bencohnot osso-xterm19:35
Vajbsam aplies to ur suggestion bencoh ;)19:35
bencohnano ? :p19:35
bencoh(not really handy to write code, but ...)19:35
Vajbi have also leafpad. It is good for all but code19:38
Vajbah and nano i use at the desktop19:38
Vajbbut i kinda got used to highlighted code while using notepad++ so...19:39
* CatButts slaps Internet Archive19:43
CatButtshey sunshavi, I has a request19:44
sixwheeledbeastbe nice if pluma/gedit could be ported20:03
CatButtshey sixwheeledbeast, what do you call a three-wheeled beast?20:05
CatButtsa Robin Reliant!20:06
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sixwheeledbeastpluma requires GTK+-3.14.x and GtkSourceView 3.0.x.20:08
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sixwheeledbeast~listkeys hildon20:36
infobotFactoid search of 'hildon' by key (4): hildon-extras ;; libhildonfm2 ;; knows when hildon app manager #DEL# ;; hildon.20:36
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CatButtshmmmm, it hit me20:50
CatButtsdo n900 phones come with multiple keyboard layouts?20:50
CatButtsor is there single layout for this phone20:50
CatButtsI ask because I see letters with accents on my keypad20:51
CatButtsand am playing with ideas in my head20:51
CatButtsand multiple layouts does not go well with these ideas20:53
siceloyou can redefine your layout as you want, with a few quirks20:54
sunshaviCatButts: As it is pluma/gedit can not be ported gtk version is 2.14.720:54
atkCatButts: there are models of it with different keyboard plastic things20:54
CatButtsnot about redefining layout, rather, about relying on a layout from inside applications20:55
CatButtsohai sun20:56
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sunshaviCatButts: BTW i use emacs (it is on the repos)20:56
CatButtseh, I am not exactly accustomed to CLI text editors, in general20:57
CatButtsmaybe and nano :P20:57
sunshaviit is not cli it is gtk based20:57
CatButtsI wanted ask you, do you happen to have PalmOS emu installer for N900 by any chance?20:58
CatButtsInternet Archive is not working20:58
atkis there a graphical pass wrapper for maemo?20:58
CatButtspass wrapper?20:58
sunshaviyes i have it (on some of my hdds)20:58
atkyes, for pass the password store program20:58
siceloah .. sorry. didn't undersand21:00
atkthat doesn't appear to wrap pass21:00
atkpass uses a directory tree of gpg encrypted files to store password21:00
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atkHere's a good question - how do you select things in microb?21:11
sicelotap the magic arrow on the right :-)21:12
atkOh cool. microb has swiping things21:13
atkyou swipe from the left it seems21:13
siceloyes it has many gestures. check wiki for detailed list21:13
CatButtsdoesn't seem to download, sunshavi21:13
CatButtsoh well, at least I know a filename now!21:14
CatButtsfound it21:15
sunshaviCatButts: i think I also have the one for the n80021:15
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CatButtshow the hug did I load external files into Garnet VM, I forgets21:56
CatButtsI had styetap before21:57
CatButtsI am doing the SunVox stress-test21:57
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sunshaviCatButts: SunVox 4 palmOS?22:13
CatButtsI know there is a Maemo sunvox too22:14
CatButtsbut I want to test the emu22:14
CatButtsby loading demanding songs22:14
sunshaviR You trying to load pdb's to garnet-emu?22:15
CatButtsI am trying to load sunvox songfiles22:16
CatButtsI need to encase them in pdbs, right?22:16
sunshavinot sure. never used sunvox on palm22:16
CatButtsbetter question22:17
sunshaviAt least You would need to know the format22:17
CatButtshow do I bring arbitrary files into garnet vm22:17
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sunshavithe only way garnet read external files (no prc, no pdb) was on the sd card. look for emulating sdcar with a directory on the host22:18
CatButtslooks like styletap had it better22:22
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CatButtsbueno, sunshavi22:34
CatButts3rd post22:34
pkill9is there a list of updated software for maemo?22:36
pkill9CatButts: what's pleco?22:39
pkill9oh chinese language thing22:39
CatButtsit's not pico that interests there22:43
CatButtsit's the method to access SD card from 3rd post22:43
pkill9question: is running linux 2.6.whatever that maemo uses bad?22:44
pkill9is it like, really unstable and insecure and shizz?22:44
MaxdamantusI don't think 2.6 has much to do with insecurity on N900.23:01
MaxdamantusMaemo is generally very insecure in terms of "app" sandboxing, compared to something like iOS and presumably Android.23:02
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CatButtsyou know what else is insecure regarding sandboxing?23:05
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Maxdamantuswhich means you should pretty much not run programs you don't trust on the device, but  simply upgrading the kernel wouldn't help that.23:05
Maxdamantus(that last message was meant to appear shortly after the previous one, but connection went down)23:05
* Maxdamantus doesn't know much about PalmOS, but imagines it's probably a system that's meant to run on CPUs without MMUs, so unless applications are translated from some safe "VM" code, they pretty much have "root" access23:07
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CatButts hehe23:12
CatButtswhoops, I meant
atkYou shouldn't really be running programs you don't trust on any device.23:54
atkFor example, I wouldn't trust android so I wouldn't run it on any device.23:54
DocScrutinizer05in memoriam Gary Birkett23:56

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