IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2017-10-13

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jonwilHOLY CRAP04:10
jonwilI found yet another BL-5J in my drawer and just managed to boot RescueOS on my device04:10
jonwilSo my N900 is NOT dead04:10
jonwiland the USB is NOT broken04:10
jonwilI have now started rescueos charging script and intend to leave it alone until it says this particular BL-5J is 100% full04:12
jonwilSpoke too soon, the phone just died and wont boot rescueOS now04:19
jonwilI suspect all 3 batteries I have are too flat to succesfully boot rescueos and what just happened was a weird fluke04:19
jonwilThat or the USB port is extremely flaky and only makes contact intermittently04:23
jonwiland it made just enough contact to boot RescueOS before stopping contact and causing RescueOS to due due to battery being low and unable to charge04:23
jonwilStill, its a sign my N900 is not dead04:24
jonwiland may well work if I can get a fully charged battery (and if need be, a repaired non-flaky USB port somehow)04:25
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buZzundead \o/06:53
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KotCzarnyjonwil: yeah, they are unkillable ;)07:55
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KotCzarnyas long there is power07:55
jonwilYeah it seems like the only way to truly destroy a N900 is a hardware failure (e,g. totally broken USB, modem chip failure, whatever) or to get into a position where you have no battery juice and no way to charge the battery07:56
jonwilIts the second situation I seem to find myself in right now07:56
jonwilNeed to find a way to get juice into one or more of the 3 batteries I have without spending a fortune or waiting weeks for something to arrive.07:57
jonwilSo far the only option I have seen is to buy some random charger or phone from someone that either wants a fortune for it, is shipping it on a slow boat out of China or both,.07:59
jonwilWhich doesn't help me :P07:59
KotCzarnyare you good with manual skills?08:01
KotCzarnyalso, can you still return your replacement phone and get one that fits bl-5j?08:05
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jonwilThere are no phones sold in my area that take BL-5J08:09
jonwilAt least none that aren't super expensive and not worth buying08:09
KotCzarnyasha 500 ?08:10
jonwilwhen I looked I didn't see anything branded Nokia at all08:10
jonwilEither in the low or high end of the selection08:10
jonwilPlenty of iPhones and Galaxies at very high prices08:10
KotCzarnyyeah, best profit on them08:10
jonwiland a few from HTC and Sony and things08:10
jonwiland then at the low end the usual low-end Android stuff (like the one I bought)08:11
KotCzarnyanyway, are you good with manual skills?08:11
jonwilI have no skills or tools for soldering or that sort of work08:11
jonwilSo that doesn't help08:11
KotCzarnyno no, not that advanced08:11
jonwilwhat then?08:11
KotCzarnyi was just thinking about making some wire extension from your new phone to bl-5j08:12
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KotCzarnybut i would have to be stable enough not to create a short08:12
jonwilI dont think that would worh08:13
KotCzarnyi do08:13
KotCzarnyli-ion is a li-ion08:13
jonwilExcept when the battery is built into the phone and cant be removed08:13
KotCzarnyyour cheapo phone has nonremovable battery?08:13
KotCzarnythat sucks08:14
jonwilEveryone is doing it for everything because its cheaper than removable battery :P08:14
KotCzarnybut its just wrong08:14
KotCzarnyfor plenty of reasons08:14
jonwilThe market cares more about getting greater battery life for less money than about removable or replacible batteries08:15
KotCzarnythen market should be educated08:15
KotCzarnyanyway, look for any device that can charge li-ion08:15
KotCzarnyfor example some dev boards with allwinner chips have li-ion support08:16
jonwilI haven't a clue where I would get a dev board in Australia either08:16
jonwilMaybe laptops with removable batteries but A.Those are super-expensive and B.The battery compartments on those are such that I would never get any kind of access to the contacts.08:18
jonwilI have no devices in my house with that kind of lithium-ion batteries except my N90008:18
jonwilMy camera takes AAs08:18
KotCzarnynah, laptops usually use higher voltage08:20
KotCzarnygot a power bank?08:20
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KotCzarnythe cheapo kind that takes single 18650 battery08:20
buZzlaptop batterypacks are just 18650 batteries joined together08:21
buZzbreak em open, pull em out ;)08:21
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KotCzarnybuzz, yes, but what i meant they arent suitable for charging single cell08:21
buZzunless you have a fruitcomputer, then you're fucked08:21
buZzKotCzarny: they totally are08:21
buZzonce you seperate them08:21
jonwilI dont have a power bank or anything like that either08:24
jonwilThe only lithium-ion batteries I have are the one in my new phone that is no help and the 3 dead BL-5Js08:25
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KotCzarnyjonwil, maybe someone in your family has older, normal phone?08:36
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jonwilNope, dont think so.08:44
KotCzarnyweird land08:45
jonwilthey probably dont have it because they dont keep old gear around :)08:45
KotCzarnyi would imagine you guys hoarding stuff because of scarcity08:47
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KotCzarnyjonwil, you may try looking for those
KotCzarnymaybe post some ad09:04
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jonwilAlready looked for those09:07
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buZzi got some bl-5j clones from ebay09:10
buZzthe polarcell is the best though09:10
KotCzarnywell, he has 3 batteries, and unable to charge them ;)09:11
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buZzoh eh09:13
buZzconnect with a couple wires09:13
buZzhook it to usb, wait maybe 30 minutes, then rescueos charge it09:14
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KotCzarnyhis usb is also broken09:14
buZzthen just fully charge with this device connected to battery :P09:14
buZzmaybe not while its inside n90009:14
jonwilI dont know for sure that my USB is broken09:16
jonwilThat item doesn't help though because waiting for crap to come from china on a slow boat is useless to me09:16
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KotCzarnyif you order today, it should arrive eventually09:17
KotCzarnyand having some tools is always useful09:17
jonwilBut that wont help me with my immediate need to get a full BL-5J somehow09:18
KotCzarnyyes, that's why you can order, and keep searching for immediate solutions too09:18
KotCzarnyhaving universal li-ion charger in the house could save you later09:18
jonwilAt this point I dont want to spend any money I don't need to09:22
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buZzjonwil: you can pay loads extras for superfast shipping ^_^09:34
buZzmaybe you have a toy quadcopter? or other RC vehicle09:35
buZzthose often use 1 cell, and very dumb chargers that'll just work fine09:35
KotCzarnypowerbanks are cheaper09:38
KotCzarnyespecially those tiny 1-cell ones09:38
buZzjust thinking what jonwil might have around09:40
KotCzarnyand killer nature09:40
buZzmeh, all my 3.5-3.5mm audio cables are shit :P09:43
buZzjust finished
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vectis3Nokia 5800 XpressMusic uses the same battery as the N90010:33
jonwilNo I dont have any drones10:34
jonwilor powerbanks10:34
jonwilOther than the new cheap phone and the N900, everything I have that takes batteries only takes regular batteries, not rechargeables or Li-Ion10:35
jonwilI have nothing that can charge a Li-Ion except the non-working N90010:36
KotCzarnyyou need new friends10:36
KotCzarnythat have phones with batteries10:36
jonwilI am investigating options to get hold of something that can charge the batteries I have10:37
jonwilI did some searches and one store that has outlets in my town has something called a "Universal Li-ion/Ni-Cd/Ni-MH Battery Charger"10:41
jonwilIt says "• Suitable for: 1 x 3.6V or 7.2V Li-ion battery packs"10:42
jonwilThe bl-5J is 3.7v though10:42
jonwilAnyhow, this store is somewhere I wouldn't have thought of looking10:42
buZzjonwil: should work though! if only just to charge ~10% , and then you can finalize charge on n90010:44
buZzif usb works10:44
jonwilI will visit this chain and maybe other places as well with my BL-5J batteries and ask if they have anything external that is capable of charging them10:45
jonwilThey may have other products that can do it10:45
jonwilOr maybe they will suggest this one as being suitable10:45
jonwilEither way I will see what I can find10:46
buZzyeah i did see some external bl-5j chargers10:46
buZzand also universal ones10:46
KotCzarnyjonwil, li-ion and li-poly charge similarly10:46
KotCzarnythere are tiny differences10:46
KotCzarnybut should be safe to get 80-90% of the charge into battery10:47
DocScrutinizer05or you just connect a USB PSU that doesn't provide more than 1000mA, for a max 30 min, while checking the battery temperature10:51
jonwilI will look into that charger since if it works for BL-5J it will mean I have a safe long-term-usable external charger for the things which will be good.10:56
buZzmore toys is more fun anway10:58
jonwilI also posted on an Aussie forum full of electronics geeks that I follow in case they have any leads10:59
jonwilWorst that can happen is I get no response on there and I move on :)11:00
buZzmaybe you're near to one of these?
jonwilThere is one in Brisbane but its very far away from me11:00
buZzyeah you guys are just a bit to unpopulated :P11:00
buZzbreed faster!11:01
buZzhigher population density gets you more of these closer to you11:01
jonwilBrisbane is very populated, we just dont have cheap real estate to set up such things as hackerspaces11:01
buZzhmhm, well once you have enough ppl, rent doesnt matter a lot any more11:01
buZzhere you can rent a office 'anti-squat' for ~250 euro , i guess ~350 aud a month11:02
buZz378.25 , i was close :P11:02
KotCzarnyoh, charging li-ion with 5v? not a bright idea11:03
jonwilDefinitely not11:03
buZzit wont prolong its lifetime :P11:03
jonwilNot when it says 3.7v on the battery itself11:03
buZzwell internal resistance would push the voltage down anyway11:04
buZzespecially when uncharged11:04
jonwilI will visit some shops tomorrow and see what I can find in the way of chargers.11:04
buZzbut if a li+ is below 2.8V , many chargers reject it11:04
buZzand the 'just apply some power for some time' really does work to 'revive' it11:04
buZzit wont be a good battery11:04
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DocScrutinizer05aah the experts11:22
DocScrutinizer05take a few classes basic physics, then understand that a LiIon will explode when you charge it TO 5V11:23
DocScrutinizer05but you can't charge it WITH 5V, you can however charge it with less than 1000mA11:23
inzFun when done intentionally, accidentally not that much11:24
DocScrutinizer05and then BL-5J has built-in protection circuit that can handle at least up to 12V11:24
KotCzarnyjonwil, go for it :P11:25
KotCzarnydoc said you can11:25
DocScrutinizer05and odds are ypour super duper universal charger is relying on that exclusively, charging the LiIon "with" 10V11:25
DocScrutinizer05or do you think it has built-in AI that decides ift that's a NiCd, NiMH, 3V6 or 7V2 LiIon?11:27
KotCzarnyit might have physical switch11:27
DocScrutinizer05I highly doubt that11:27
KotCzarnyfor nimh/nicd, they are charged similarly11:27
KotCzarnynot the same, but similarly11:28
DocScrutinizer05actually yiu need -delta V for NiMH11:28
DocScrutinizer05when you charge NiMH in a NiCd charger, odds are they run away11:29
DocScrutinizer05their cel voltage _drops_ when they get hot11:30
DocScrutinizer05so they draw more current and get hotter....11:30
DocScrutinizer05A NiMH charger detects that drop in voltage11:30
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KotCzarnyok, you might be right that you can connect usb power to discharged li-ion, but you dont have any way of current limiting in such setup11:31
jonwilthe universal charger I found has an LCD screen and a bunch of buttons/settings by the look of it11:31
DocScrutinizer05read what I said11:31
KotCzarnyso the only way to check the state of charge would be either temperature or measuring voltage on battery periodically11:31
jonwilso you can probably tell it what sort of battery you have11:31
DocScrutinizer05USB power itself has mandatory current limit11:31
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KotCzarnydoc, yes, but it's usually only good when liion is discharged11:32
jonwilAnyhow when I go to the shops tomorrow I will either find something I can use or know what I can try11:32
KotCzarnyonce its 30-50% full you have to limit current yourself11:32
DocScrutinizer05and you can safely assume that an empty 1320mAh battery will cope with 30min of 1000mA11:32
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DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: do you really think you can mess with an EE with 50 years experience about battery charging?11:33
KotCzarnybut there is still human factor11:34
KotCzarnyin such uncontrolled setup, user can forget about it11:34
DocScrutinizer05I even calculated that too, I know jonwil for a few years now11:34
KotCzarnyand have a tiny bomb waiting11:34
DocScrutinizer05this procedure suggestion was tailored exactly for him and is not suitable for anybody else. Usually I strictly discourage that procedure for charging batteries11:35
jonwilI cant go with raw USB anyway since I have no spare USB cables and no way to expose the power wires11:36
jonwilno tools suitable11:36
DocScrutinizer05but I knpow when I tell jonwil he must limit time to 30min and keep the battery temperature checked closely during that time, he will understand what that means#11:36
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jonwilI will understand what it means11:36
jonwilBut I dont have the patience to babysit a battery for 30 minutes11:37
jonwilI will go to the electronics and battery shops tomorrow and see what I can find and then go from there11:37
jonwilEither I end up with a suitable charger (which I can then use going forward as a general purpose USB charger) or I end up with nothing and I look for the next plan (whatever that might be)11:37
KotCzarnyyou will probably still have to fiddle to connect bl-5j to it11:39
jonwilyeah probably but if I need wires or whatever I can buy them somewhere as well11:40
freemangordon_jonwil: there are some cheapo chinese "universal" chargers that actually work11:40
KotCzarnyfmg: remember he is in australia11:40
jonwilThis model I am seeing online is probably a cheapo chinese charger brought in by this company and marked up to $5011:41
freemangordon_so, no "made in china" import? i DOUBT :)11:41
KotCzarnyfmg, not with his impatience11:41
DocScrutinizer05the cheapest "universal charger" I ever seen had a plastic case, two spring wires to attach to the battery contacts, a mains plug, a capacitor and a diode for rectifying and limiting mains current11:41
DocScrutinizer05damn, what a dangerous and brainfucked device11:41
freemangordon_DocScrutinizer05: no, what I am talking about is a smart one, it detects the battery polarity etc11:41
freemangordon_I guess the charge current is some 200-300 mA, but still11:42
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