IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2017-10-11

DocScrutinizer05sicelo: did you talk about the group reg issue?00:36
* DocScrutinizer05 - on a totally unrelated sidenote - considers making money as a youtube IKEA assembly instruction video provider00:38
DocScrutinizer05dman, those PAX slide doors are a bitch to assemble00:39
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LjLDocScrutinizer05, you must be a stupid arrogant teenager who got an "openmoko engineer" cloak by virtue of not knowing the first thing about mobile networking06:04
LjLdon't you even feel shame?06:04
* DocScrutinizer05 blushes06:05
DocScrutinizer05sory dear Sir06:05
LjLDocScrutinizer05, anyway, i like these two ancient greek telegraph ideas: one had two people on hills sit there with water clocks that had faces where each letter of the alphabet was printed. the person who wanted to send a message would uncover a lamp, and start the clock. the receiver, upon seeing the light, would also start his clock. when the clock hand reached the desired letter, the send would cover his lamp again, and both would stop the clock, and see06:07
LjLthe letter that was intended for sending06:07
DocScrutinizer05btw what would you think about bundling (sales) smartphones with a VPN service?06:07
LjLi don't like the concept of VPNs, it's just centralization again to me with the assumption that the centralizer is more of a good guy than the potential MITM would otherwise be :(06:08
LjLi like VPNs like Tinc or the way Syncthing works (although that's not a VPN, but imagine it were)06:08
DocScrutinizer05indeed, it is06:08
LjLat the end of the day my solution to everything tends to be a DHT :P06:09
LjLin the VPN case a DHT would just let you not lose track of the addresses of the other clients in your own VPN, and help negotiate NAT punching06:10
LjLof course it's not like the *data* would go over it (although Syncthing has nodes that actually do that, when it's the only way to bypass NAT)06:10
LjLanyway, the other telegraph idea was less technical but probably a lot more feasible: the sender just had two lamps with various different lampshades available for them, specifically, 5 per lamp (imagine: fully open, fully closed, vertical, horizontal, cross-shaped)06:11
LjLthere are 24 letters in the greek alphabet, so with a 5x5, the sender can easily send arbitrary letters by changing the lampshades in succession06:12
LjLi think it is not quite understood whether these ideas were just musings by thinkers, or were actually put into practice during wars06:14
LjLi bet the water clock idea wasn't put into practice successfully, though. it is fancy but just... no.06:14
LjLif i really were a teenager... maybe i'd be smart enough not only to come up with fancy networking idea, but also smart enough to implement them, and perhaps even energetic enough to push for their adoption06:17
LjLor not. i probably wouldn't. but still, i'd feel less powerless by a tad.06:18
LjLDocScrutinizer05, hey, this little computer-like thing might make you smile. i have it, only crowd-anything project i ever dared back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzqcfQo7rhs&list=PLUHYzV0mEx6G46uJVHPa5TLFpxWdxp6kt06:20
LjL(but well it failed miserably in having any degree of success, so maybe it's not so smile-worthy)06:22
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siceloDocScrutinizer05: it completely slipped my mind. (GC). I'll handle right now09:35
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KotCzarnyi wonder why linux has separate command 'swapon/swapoff' instead of just (u)mount -t swap12:52
KotCzarnykinda makes it unnecessary12:52
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MaxdamantusKotCzarny: because swap has pretty much nothing to do with mounts.14:02
MaxdamantusKotCzarny: except that they both can be handled by `mount` when they appear in /etc/fstab, but that's purely a userspace oddity.14:02
KotCzarnyyes, still is in the same domain (disk partition/block device)14:02
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MaxdamantusWhat about reading/writing a partition table? That has to do with disks. Should that functionality be included in `mount(1)`?14:05
KotCzarnythats more into mkfs/mkswap14:06
KotCzarnyso mkfs.partition14:06
KotCzarnyor mkfs.gpt14:06
MaxdamantusWhen `mount(1)` adds swap, it doesn't even use the `mount(2)` call.14:07
Maxdamantusand swap is independent of things like mount namespaces.14:07
MaxdamantusThe only reason it's included in `mount` is for the sake of fstab.14:07
KotCzarnyare there other things that are in fstab but not in mount interest?14:08
Maxdamantusso you can put the adding of swap into the same place as the mounting of filesystems.14:08
KotCzarnyand swap is a filesystem14:08
MaxdamantusIt's not a filesystem.14:08
KotCzarnybecause it has structure14:08
KotCzarnynot of files, but blocks14:08
KotCzarnywell, allocations14:09
MaxdamantusYou can't mount it with `mount(2)`, it doesn't appear in the VFS, it has no filesystem structure.14:09
MaxdamantusOtherwise you might as well call any data format a filesystem.14:09
KotCzarnythen it might be interesting to add it to mount(2)14:09
MaxdamantusIt doesn't appear in /proc/mounts14:10
KotCzarnysame as above14:10
KotCzarnythere was time when there wasnt ntfs in /proc/mounts (because it wasnt implemented)14:11
MaxdamantusIf you could mount it, it would not be done to enable it as extra space for pages to swap to.14:11
MaxdamantusIt would only be done to get a representation of its contents.14:11
Maxdamantus/proc/mounts shows your currently mounted filesystems.14:12
KotCzarnywouldnt it be nice if it showed used/total/free pages in df?14:12
MaxdamantusIf you could mount ntfs somehow (eg, using fuse), it should still have appeared in /proc/mounts14:13
MaxdamantusWhat information would it actually show in `df`? If you reboot the system, do the numbers get reset?14:13
KotCzarnyyes, because it would be representation of the mounted state14:14
KotCzarnynot 'on disk'14:14
MaxdamantusThat would be a very strange usecase for `df`, and if it didn't behave that way, it would be useless because it would pretty much always appear to be full.14:14
KotCzarnyyup14:14
MaxdamantusIt would also require special behaviour from `df`, since `df` calls `stat(2)` on the mount points it knows about (probably by reading /proc/mounts) to find information.14:16
KotCzarnyyes, but it's up to kernel 'fs' driver to update those14:16
Maxdamantusand again, swap is completely independent of things like mount namespaces.14:16
KotCzarnyand you can do whatever you need14:16
KotCzarnysimilar to what fuse does14:16
MaxdamantusIf you enter a new mount namespace, you can forget about all of the mounts associated with the parent, but you'll still have the same swap.14:17
KotCzarnyon the mountpoint you could have files similar to those in proc or sys14:17
KotCzarnywhich would allow to do config/stat type of actions14:18
MaxdamantusBut what if you're in a new mount namespace and you unmount the swap mountpoint?14:18
MaxdamantusYou won't see the swap that you will be potentially using.14:19
Maxdamantusalso, what if you don't want to spam your mount namespace pointlessly with swap mountpoints?14:19
Maxdamantusand what happens if someone creates a new mount namespace, adds the swap, then exits?14:20
KotCzarnythere will always be people who want/dont want particular ideas14:20
MaxdamantusIs anyone able to turn that swap off?14:20
KotCzarnysure14:21
KotCzarnybecause once you mount-over, it's up to you to know the consequences and act accordingly14:22
MaxdamantusI'm not talking about mounting over anything.14:22
MaxdamantusI'm talking about adding swap in a private namespace.14:22
MaxdamantusSwap isn't private (at least not in Linux); any pages can be moved into swap.14:23
KotCzarnyand now there is a new idea, of private swapspaces14:23
Maxdamantusand it'd be kind of crappy if you can add swap in a private namespace then exit (causing the namespace to disappear and thus the mount point) then not be able to "unmount" the swap, ever.14:24
KotCzarnyunless you make it umount automatically14:25
Maxdamantusprivate swapspaces sounds plausible, though it's obviously not the same as a mount namespace.14:25
Maxdamantusbut it would have strange behaviour sometimes.14:26
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Maxdamantuseg, if processes across different swap spaces are sharing memory, whose swap space is used when those pages are pushed out of RAM?14:26
KotCzarnyi would guess private one would have priority14:27
MaxdamantusThey could both be private.14:27
Maxdamantusthough saying "the private one" is missing the point of namespaces.14:28
KotCzarnythen the one that is accessible by both14:28
Maxdamantusthe point of namespaces is to behave as if everything is private.14:28
MaxdamantusWhen the kernel runs the initial process, it's run in a particular mount/network/ipc/user namespace.14:29
MaxdamantusWhen you `unshare(2)`, all you're doing is creating more of these namespaces. There isn't a namespace that is particularly "private".14:29
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MaxdamantusThe reason you'd call it private is because not many other processes are in that namespace.14:31
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DocScrutinizer05what the ... ??? my tab nick-completion broke14:39
DocScrutinizer05sicelo: Generalantilles in online14:40
DocScrutinizer05(tab) duh, there's an option "allow tabulations" in konversation that I never seen nor used before14:41
DocScrutinizer05and what's most funny: it's in input box context menu but it's channel/tab specific14:42
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LjLKotCzarny, not everything that has some kind of structure is a filesystem, or RAM itself would be a filesystem as it mirrors swap's structure, but calling RAM a filesystem is far from standard nomenclature17:55
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KotCzarnyjust wait when nvm flash becomes standard18:40
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LjLDocScrutinizer05, i'm almost more worried about the audience's views expressed (including by votes) than by the corporate idea itself https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/75okqd/mozilla_might_offer_freemium_services_in_the/23:39
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